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2 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SUMMARY MINUTES AUGUST 26, 2003 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Susan Robinson, Paula Atkins, Amy O'Shea, and Glenn Stolar MEMBERS ABSENT: Jack Spizale and Tom Kelly STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Bonnie, Earl & Ryan Spencer Steven Gitzen Jack Jensen Terre Kemble Paul Harris Cole Kelly Cindy Scott & Tony Will Jim & Cathy Scott Deanna Bunkelman Kevin Joyce 1060 Wildwood Circle, Chaska 885 St. Mortiz, Victoria 8480 Pelican Court 1782 Valley Ridge Trail 8640 Chanhassen Hills Drive No. 1556 Bluebill Trail 2730 Sandpiper Trail, Excelsior 1578 Lake Susan Hills Drive 4191 Red Oak Lane 2043 Brinker Street APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Todd Hoffman added Mark Joyce presenting his Eagle Scout project under Visitor Presentations. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: _PRESENTATION OF FRANK SCOTT MEMORIAL VOLUNTEER AWARD. Cole Kelly, President of the Chanhassen Athletic Association, provided background information on the formation and duties of the Chanhassen Athletic Association. He summarized Frank Scott's participation and accomplishments in the formation of CAA and the City of Chanhassen. The presentation tonight was to honor Frank Scott and keep his memory alive with his annual award for volunteerism in the Chanhassen Athletic Association. The inaugural Frank E. Scott Memorial Volunteer Award was presented to Earl Spencer, after his list of volunteer accomplishments was read. Thomas Joyce with Boy Scout Troop 346 presented his proposed Eagle Scout project for renovation of the round house at Roundhouse Park. He is proposing to install glass block windows and window wells and do landscaping around the building. Deanna Bunkelman was present to provide an update on how the roundhouse renovation was progressing. A grand Park and Rec Summary - August 26, 2003 opening for the round house is tentatively planned for mid-October, provided the wood floors and everything else is completed. Staff asked Deanna Bunkelman to keep them updated. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved, Atkins seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 22, 2003 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. 2004 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP). Todd Hoffman stated that due to the completion of recent projects, primarily the 101 north trail and the City Center Park project which called upon the park and trail fund as the primary or sole financing source, Fund 410, the park dedication fund has been at it's lowest level in many years. With that he being said, he has chosen two projects for 2004 capital improvement program. One being the playground equipment replacement project at Meadow Green Park playground, and the second being an important trail connector on Highway 41. During commission discussion and questions, Commissioner Stolar asked if there was a third project, what would it be. Todd Hoffman stated other projects would be trail connectors on the north end of the Highway 101 trail, and replacement of the other outdated wooden playground structures. There was discussion about the cost of replacing playground structures and the time line for construction. Commissioner Stolar stated he would not be in favor of the trail connection along Highway 41. He felt replacement of the playground structure was his biggest concern. There was considerable discussion over what playgrounds equipment needed to be replaced and when and how to do that. Todd Hoffman stated the County is very interested in continuing to advance trails up to the Minnewashta Regional Park. They just haven't gotten into the program yet of constructing those trails so he would continue to work with them for another year and see if they would be interested in partnering in that project. He felt they would like nothing more than to continue the trail north to the entrance of Minnewashta Regional Park, and then also apply for ISTEA funding for an underpass and the City could possibly piggy back on a project of that magnitude. Commissioner O'Shea suggested conducting a survey of the neighborhoods served by the 10 playground structures related to their use and desire to be renovated. The following motion and amendment was then made. Stolar moved an amendment to substitute the Highway 41 trail connector with the Lake Ann Park playground replacement in the 2004 CIP program. All voted in favor, except Atkins and O'Shea who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2. Stolar moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the 2004 park and trail acquisition and development capital improvement program to include Meadow Green Park playground replacement estimated at $65,000 and the Lake Ann wood playground structure replacement estimated at $90,000 for a total of $155,000. All voted in favor, except Atkins and O'Shea who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2. Commissioner O'Shea voted against the motion because she sees a real high need to connect Highway 41 as fast as possible because it's so heavily used before someone goes on the highway and gets hurt. Commissioner Atkins voted against the motion because she is in favor of trail connectors whenever they come up. Her experience at the Lake Ann playground this summer with her grandson and some other small neighborhood children, it appeared that things were Park and Rec Summary - August 26, 2003 functioning pretty well and it didn't look like it was in terrible shape. She would like a little bit more feedback about that particular park before spending that much money. Commissioner Stolar stated his desire to work together with the City Council to figure out a way to achieve the goal of understanding the safety issues. Chairman Franks encouraged Todd Hoffman and staff to work with any other agency to assist in furthering any of the trail projects, and especially this one. Todd Hoffman stated he would bring back a draft of a survey on the playgrounds for consideration as a winter project. UPDATE ON THE PAINT BALL ISSUE. Todd Hoffman provided an update on City Council action. Council did not support this activity on private property and Sergeant Jim Olson was very clear in the fact that there is not a city in the whole county that allows this to happen and so the ordinance will remain as it is today. THREE RIVERS PARK DISTRICT WINTER TRAIL ACTIVITIES PERMIT RENEWAL. Todd Hoffman provided the staff report on the annual renewal for a snowmobiling trail in the southern part of the city. It's the staff recommendation that the commission recommend the City Council approve the south LRT again for the 2003-2004 season as a designated snowmobile trail in the city of Chanhassen. Commissioner O'Shea asked for clarification on where in the city snowmobiles are allowed to travel. Robinson moved, Stolar seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the application of the Three Rivers Park District for the 2003-2004 winter trail use for snowmobiles on the Southwest Light Rail Transit trail in Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS. DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RACE. Jerry Ruegemer provided the update on the Dave Huffman 5K Memorial Race. Chairman Franks suggested providing a water stop for the kids race. RECREATION PROGRAMS. Jerry Ruegemer provided a quick overview of the fall recreation programs. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Todd Hoffman informed the commission of the grant approval from Center Point Energy for the replacement of trees, and reminded the commissioners of the joint City Council meeting on the 15th of September. Glenn Stolar stated he was in Marquette, Michigan a couple weeks ago and their major city park playground equipment had sponsorship plaques all over it. Each piece had a sponsor which is maybe something to think about as funding for the city's playground replacements. Chairman Franks suggested creating a committee to address this issue. Park and Rec Summary - August 26, 2003 Chairman Franks adjourned the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 4 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 26, 2003 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Susan Robinson, Paula Atkins, Amy O'Shea, and Glenn Stolar MEMBERS ABSENT: Jack Spizale and Tom Kelly STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Bonnie, Earl & Ryan Spencer Steven Gitzen Jack Jensen Terre Kemble 1782 Paul Harris 8640 Cole Kelly 1556 Cindy Scott & Tony Will 2730 Jim & Cathy Scott 1578 Deanna Bunkelman 4191 Kevin Joyce 2043 1060 Wildwood Circle, Chaska 885 St. Mortiz, Victoria 8480 Pelican Court Valley Ridge Trail Chanhassen Hills Drive No. Bluebill Trail Sandpiper Trail, Excelsior Lake Susan Hills Drive Red Oak Lane Brinker Street APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Hoffman: We have one addition. We would like to ask Thomas Joyce, who is a resident of Chanhassen working on his Eagle Scout project, under visitor presentations following the Frank Scott Memorial. And Mr. Joyce will tell us about his work, his proposed project on the round house landscaping. Franks: Great. And we'll insert that under visitor presentations this evening? Great. So added. Any other additions or changes to the agenda from commission members? Okay, seeing none then. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: PRESENTATION OF FRANK SCOTT MEMORIAL VOLUNTEER AWARD. Cole Kelly: Thank you to the Park and Rec Board for having us tonight. I'm Cole Kelly. I'm the President of the Chanhassen Athletic Association. The Chanhassen Athletic Association was formed in 1972 by a volunteer leaders of this small town of Chanhassen at that time. The organization was formed in a way to encourage young people to participate in athletics without putting the large organizational burden on the city administration. The organization started with a baseball program, and then as the city grew with population they added basketball, soccer and Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 softball programs. The Chanhassen Athletic Association is and will continue to be a volunteer youth development organization, teaching our youth to realize their full potential, improving their quality of life through sports, sportsmanship, leadership, giving back to the community and just having fun. We're here tonight to talk a little bit about Frank Scott. Frank Scott started volunteering with the Chanhassen Athletic Association in the early 1990's. After his retirement and with his children being grown he decided to give a little back to his community where he lived. Not only did he volunteer for the CAA Board as the Athletic Director, he became the administrator for the CAA for a couple of years before he lost an unfortunate bout with cancer. Frank was appointed by the Chanhassen City Council to the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission and served at that capacity for a number of years. I was on a District 112 task force with Frank. I represented the CAA and he represented the City of Victoria so Frank was out doing things for many different groups in the community. Frank worked tirelessly to make sure our children had a safe and fun environment in which to play in. I had a chance to visit with Frank during one of his final hospital days and Frank was always looking at the future and what needed to be done yet. He still wanted to make a difference to the end. Tonight we honor Frank and keep his memory alive with his annual award for volunteerism in the Chanhassen Athletic Association. Before we give out this award I would like to acknowledge that two of Frank's children are here, Jim and Cathy Scott are here and Jim's daughter Cindy Will in the back. Cindy Will: Frank's daughter. Cole Kelly: Frank's daughter, I'm sorry. Cindy Will: And grandson. Cole Kelly: I've been associated with the Chanhassen Athletic Association for 10 years now and over that period of time I've seen a lot of volunteers who put out extra effort and the self sacrifice to help make this organization work for the benefit of our children. The award tonight goes to one of those people who like Frank has given numerous hours of volunteering to our organization and to our community. This person has volunteered as a coach in basketball and baseball. This year he volunteered to help baseball and softball's change from our past in-house program to the now East Carver County Little League program. He is on the Board of Directors for this program as a volunteer. This past spring he had the sole responsibility of creating a safety manual used by 650 of our children and coaches playing baseball and softball. The National Little League Organization was so impressed with the work he had done that they adopted some of the policies he developed as their own. He spent numerous hours ordering, sorting and distributing uniforms and equipment for all of our teams. He helped out in extra ways when needed. If somebody signed up late, he made sure they got a uniform. If there was a left handed catcher, he made sure we had a left handed mitt. He went the extra mile. He lives in Chaska with his wife Bonnie and his son Ryan. He is employed by G&K Services. So it is with great pleasure that the Chanhassen Athletic Association in recognition of your extraordinary volunteerism, outstanding contributions that have benefited our entire community that the recipient of the inaugural Frank E. Scott Memorial Volunteer Award is Earl Spencer. Earl Spencer: Thank you. Cole Kelly: Thank you Earl and congratulations from our entire community and thank you board. Franks: Thank you. Earl, this is your chance. Why don't you step up to the mic and if you have something to say, we'd love to hear it. Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Earl Spencer: Well first of all I'd like to say thanks to the CAA and for East Carver County Little League. It was a big endeavor but one thing we said on the Board when we started doing this was, it was all about kids having fun, and you know what, I think kids had a ball. And it was a lot of work and this award goes to everyone that was associated with the East Carver County Little League. I'd just like to thank you and looking forward to even more and fruitful things in the future. Thank you very much. Franks: We're very glad to see this award. I know I served with Frank. There's nothing that I can say. Your presence and your dedication to the sports that he loved says more than anything we can comment on. I'd like to thank those members of his family, Frank's family for being here today. It really makes it personal. Thanks for coming. And thank you all for coming too. We'll look forward to next year's too. Great, keep it up. We'll move on to our next visitor presentation. Mr. Joyce, if you'd like to come up to the podium. Thomas Joyce: As you all know my name is Thomas Joyce. I'm a resident of Chanhassen on Brinker Street. I come from Troop 346 and I was seeking an Eagle project. I contacted Mr. Hoffman here and he directed me towards the round house, and you guys all know the round house. You approved it's renovation in May, 2003. I will be working on it hopefully for my Eagle Scout project. If you'd care to look at your packets, the brief history. The round house was brought to Chanhassen in the 1940's. It was moved by a guy named Ben Lang. He set it up here and used as a lake home. Now it has been vacant for quite some time and Chanhassen has taken it up and is now the city property. You guys approved renovation in May, 2003 of the round house and who's in charge of that is Deanna Bunkelman. She is present tonight and what I will be in charge of, I will be helping fixing the exterior of the building. A brief description is, I will be fixing up some window wells, installing glass block, fender wall with fence. I will also be doing the landscaping and grading around this house. I've met with a Master Gardener who will be helping me, assisting me in doing this landscaping and grading. If you'd turn to the third page, which is the glass block and fender walls plan. I put this up and this is my idea is of the round house. There are two window wells that are needed replacing and a diagram is on page, right here. The diagram of how I will do the window wells, mostly expenses will be coming from a $1,000 budget supplied by the city. This is my idea. This is a bird's eye view of the whole structure. I'll be replacing two window wells and replacing the windows, basement windows with glass block. That is what is going on. Grading and landscaping, I will be landscaping a few plants, which I have here for you tonight. I will be landscaping some, mostly hydrangea's around the building, and I also will be landscaping, putting in purple corn flowers, day lilies, and tiger lilies and I'll be putting those around the building, and you can look at page...shows where they will be put. And I also have sent in my idea, I have put a 6 foot extension in front of the 5 windows that face the Minnewashta Lake and I will be putting various plants which is in the project description under the landscaping. On that page with the diagram. It has a list of various plants that I will hopefully be getting from donations from neighbors and other master gardeners. And then for the grading I will be hopefully for Chanhassen City Hall will be supplying the dirt and the amounts and that will all come out of my budget and of expenses they will be supplying the mulch, topsoil, peat moss and pea gravel for the window wells. And the scouts will be digging up the area in which needs to be graded and then we'll then plant the vegetation. Any questions? Franks: Well Thomas that looks like a pretty complete plan. What I'd like to do is just open it up to see if any of the commissioners have any questions for you so why don't you hang right at the microphone for a little bit. Thomas Joyce: Okay. Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: We'll start down with you Glenn. Stolar: I don't have any questions. I think it's a great project and I think it will really help in the whole renovation activity that's occurring there. Thank you. Thomas Joyce: Alright, thank you Mr. Stolar. Atkins: It looks great to me too. I was wondering if you're going to use any heavy or semi- heavy equipment for any of the grading, like Bobcats or anything like that? Or is it all going to be done with manual labor from scouts? Thomas Joyce: Well I was thinking of using Bobcats but I need to make a certain number of hours for these scouts to do. They need the service hours for their rank advancement, and I also need to put in at least 80 hours for the scouts and other basically man power for this project so I thought that they could include that and it'd be fun for them to get hours. Atkins: Sounds good. Thomas Joyce: Thank you Ms. Atkins. Franks: And you've gone over your plan obviously with Ms. Bunkelman. Thomas Joyce: Yes. Franks: And you've talked it over with Todd when you made the call? Thomas Joyce: Yes. Franks: Okay. And your budgeting is all set up, other than the donations you think you're good to go with the supplies that you need? Thomas Joyce: Right. And the supplies that I need, yes the mostly donations will cover a lot of the cost from the plants and the glass block. The glass block should not cost at all. It will not definitely go over my budget plan. Franks: And it's your plan to have this finished by October I 1th. Do you think that's pretty reasonable? Thomas Joyce: Yes sir and I think, hopefully if I get all the approval process it takes at least a month for the approval process to go through, then ! can start my project and yeah, I believe if I really work hard and get that approving done, I'll be able to start it. Franks: Well I don't think we're going to be standing in your way tonight so the process is looking pretty good. We'd really like to see you get working on it as soon as you can. Amy. O'Shea: Thomas, I really appreciate the work you put in to the presentation because it really makes it very clear and it looks really thought out, which gives me confidence that you're going to do a super job. With the window wells, I just have two questions. With the window wells, you're not going to be going any deeper are you? Or are you going to dig deeper when you replace the window wells? 4 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Thomas Joyce: I'll probably have to dig deeper because I've gone out there and there is dirt and soil caving in through the window well structures so. O'Shea: The only reason I ask, and I know you have it on here, is the electrical and gas and because it's so old, I always worry. I mean you just don't know what's underneath so I'm glad you're going to have someone help you with that aspect because there could be something that's been shut off but you could hit something so just kind of a note on being really cautious on what's underneath the ground if you're going to dig further, but it looks super. Thomas Joyce: Yeah, and I was going to make a point that the first thing I'm going to do after I get my letter back from the district board of the Viking council, I'm going to immediately call NSP and have them go out there and look at you know, do their job I guess. O'Shea: Sounds good. That's all I have. Robinson: I also wanted to commend you Thomas on a great job. It looks like you did a lot of hours of research here. And it looks like you're going to do it all in one day, is that right? Two-4 hour shifts on October 11th. Thomas Joyce: Yes. Yes ma'am and yeah so I hope to do it all in one day. That would be absolutely excellent. Just get it done. Robinson: I suspect you've got a good crew of people there and I just have one other question for you. Do you have a background in horticulture or an interest in that area that why you chose this as a. Thomas Joyce: Not really. I just, you know, I found it and said you know what, this sounds like a great project. Let's go for it so. Robinson: Well I think the results will be magnificent so thank you. Thomas Joyce: Alright, thank you. Franks: Thank you. Good luck. Hoffman: I don't know if Deanna has any updates for us but. Franks: Well since you're here. Deanna Bunkelman: What do you want to know? Franks: Are we on track? Deanna Bunkelman: On track for what? Franks: Well I noticed that the windows, they look real nice. Deanna Bunkelman: Yeah, they're nice aren't they. We go in every once in a while and open them. Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: And they actually open? Deanna Bunkelman: Yeah. The 5 on the front, the 3 are stationary. They don't open but the 2 on each side open. We have a person that will come in and do the wood floors. Franks: Is it still buckled? Deanna Bunkelman: It buckles but we have a dehumidifier running in there. It's been running in there for several weeks now and it's really dried it up so now we're going to get the skerjack I believe they're called in there and start slowly cranking it down, and then we'll have to secure it from underneath. And after that's done then we have a wood floor person that will come in and sand it and put a clear coat on and that's going to be a donation. So we're pretty excited about that. And he lives in Chanhassen so we're trying to use as many local people as we can. The electrical is going well. We're hoping to finish that in the next few weeks. And then after the electrical is done, I'll probably have to have somebody come out and inspect that, and then we can start doing the sheetrock on the ceiling, at least on the first level. And then the basement is pretty well dry because of the dehumidifier running and we want to sealcoat the walls and the floor in there. And then I have for the sheetrock, I have that all lined up. We have a taper and a person that's going to come in and spray and a lot of that's going to be donated. We already have our mats for the floor for when it's a warming house so the skates don't damage the floor. I have to do some follow-up's. I received some further information from the City of Woodlake as far as when the water tower was put up but it was just excerpts from their City Council meeting minutes. ! want to go back and get more information because I do know that they had a water tower put up in 1903 so I want to find out if this is the one because if it is, the structure itself would be 100 years old which would be kind of fun. So I'm going to follow-up there yet to get more history on that. Hoffman: What are the comments from the neighbors? Deanna Bunkelman: They're positive. Everybody's very excited, yes. And we have every summer down there, there's so many people that are walking and they stop in and we just give them a little bit of history and they just ask more and more and more. They think it's so cool, and we have a lot of people. There's an old couple that every night they come down and they sit on the bench, and they say it's just unbelievable the number of people they see stopping by and we have a little mailbox set up, which you guys have probably seen with flyers and there's people taking flyers all the time so pretty exciting. Franks: Great. Wow. Deanna Bunkelman: And then I'm so lucky I have Thomas working on his Eagle Scout so that's going to go really well. So any questions or anything I didn't cover? Oh, we took the carpet off the stairs. I don't know if you guys have been in there lately, but we took the carpet off the stairs and it's just beautiful wood. I mean it's pretty much the same wood as the other, kind of that redwood. So it's pretty, it's really fun but. Franks: And grand opening date? Deanna Bunkelman: Yeah, grand opening date. Do you guys have plans? Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: Well we're just want to make sure we don't plan for a date when it's unlikely everything will be finished to your satisfaction so we want to make sure it's done before we, so we'd really be looking for what' s your idea of your completion date. Deanna Bunkelman: Well and a lot of it is going to be depending on how well that floor goes down. That's my biggest concern is the floor. If that floor wasn't buckled like that, I wouldn't have an issue at all you know for an October timeframe, but I don't know, what were you guys kind of thinking? Did you? Hoffman: Sometime in October...because if the goal is to open it for a warming house this winter, we should get the majority of work done before November anyways. Mid-October would be nice. Deanna Bunkelman: Because that's what we were kind of shooting for because I know you wanted to kind a fall picnic type thing, yeah. So just getting that floor down, because if that wood floor person does, you know he just needs a couple days because it's not that big so he can get in there and, and I'm not worried about the second floor right now, as far as getting it open for the, because we'll block that off so nobody can go up there. So for the grand opening I'm not going to worry about that at all. Franks: Right. Hoffman; Well let's just keep in touch and keep a mid-October date in mind. Deanna Bunkelman: Okay. Because as far as the landscaping goes, I don't know if you caught that, if that was clear. It's going to be graded and the glass block windows are going to be put in but the landscaping, the plants are not going to happen until spring, right? Thomas Joyce: We might be able to finish it by the fall, but if it all goes right we'll be able to finish it by the fall. Deanna Bunkelman: Okay, but I mean that shouldn't hold up the grand opening. Stolar: Would you want to wait til the spring just for not planting them right before winter, or doesn't it matter? Hoffman: Being perennials it really doesn't matter. Deanna Bunkelman: Yeah it doesn't matter at all, yep. Just some of the neighbors that were going to donate a lot of the plants, they like to do their splitting of the perennials more in spring so, but that's not going to hold the project up at all if we're ready to do it. We're ready to do it, we'll make them split them. Franks: The only thing I'm concerned about is if we meet in the end of September for our meeting and we're looking at a mid-October, that doesn't give much time for planning so I mean that's going to fall pretty heavily on staff to pull things together. Hoffman: That will be fine. Franks: And do we have any funds available to assist in that effort too? Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Hoffman: Pretty modest. I'm not sure what, I'll work with Deanna on it. Deanna Bunkelman: Yeah, we'll get some of our people in the neighborhood that do things. Hoffman: Chipotle will donate that I believe if we get in touch with those folks. Deanna Bunkelman: Oh yeah? Oh that would be great. Hoffman: Talked with their manager on their opening day and he said anything you have that is community oriented that has to do with volunteers where you're celebrating the efforts of volunteers, call us. We'll bring free food. Deanna Bunkelman: Oh perfect. That'd be great. Now with this, did you guys make a decision on the front stoop, as far as what you were thinking about doing there? Hoffman: We need to re-pour concrete stoop but we need to wait until the door...what happens with the front door will affect how the front stoop is poured because it has to go underneath the wood on the outside. I think we'll just leave it as is now until you go a little further in the project. Deanna Bunkelman: Sounds good. Franks: Great, thanks Deanna. Deanna Bunkelman: You bet. Franks: Well Thomas you're more than welcome to hang around while we get into more of the business aspect, but if you want to use this as an opportunity to exit you sure can. Thank you. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved, Atkins seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 22, 2003 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. 2004 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP). Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. The CIP or recommended CIP for 2004 is fairly straight forward, and it's obvious the reason for that is because of the cash balance in the park dedication fund. Recent activity involving a variety of projects, but primarily the 101 north trail, and the City Center Park project which we toured here this evening, have called upon that fund as the primary, or as the sole financing source for those two projects. That being the case, Fund 410, our park dedication has been at it's lowest level in many years. That being the case we'll be required to present a modest 2004 park and trail capital improvement program. What I've selected is two projects. One being more of a maintenance, or replacement project at the Meadow Green Park playground, and the second being an important trail connector to provide some viability to a significant trail system that continues to expand in the western part of our city. Let me explain first of all the Meadow Green Park playground replacement. This has been on the CIP for a number of years but has just never gotten out of the gates. The oldest piece of play equipment that we have in the city, it's rapidly aging. We have nurtured it along with at least 3 remodels in the last dozen years. Primarily what takes place there is the frost heave pushes this Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 equipment out of the ground at an uneven rate so if you go down every day and look at it, it's tilted one night. Kinked the other way and we have to take those poles off, re-excavate those poles, put that equipment back down in place. Slip over boards because of the splintering problems we're having at this playground primarily. You don't want to be the person taking those calls when a parent calls and says, what has happened to their child because of the splintering. It's very painful. The splinters that come off of that wood structure are very small, very thin and primarily they're getting them on the back of their thighs when they're playing on this equipment. I've had calls from many families in the area just simply refusing to play on the equipment. They can't believe that they have to put up with equipment of this nature at a park that has been there for a long time, when there are other newer neighborhoods in the city that have much nicer equipment and so they feel it's high time that they saw some new equipment at Meadow Green Park. The $65,000 not only includes the new playground structure but then new border material, which would be a poured concrete curb, as material there today is a redwood 4 by 6 timber which is aged right along with the equipment. The second improvement, and that's total of $65,000. That was included in this year and was postponed due to the increased expenditures at City Center Park. Second improvement is the Highway 41 trail connector. If you recall when we took a tour out at Pulte Homes, the new Pulte trail...so this is a connection between those two in the ditch of Highway 41. It would require a permit from the State to construct it and then approximately $90,000 to complete it. Much of that cost would be in retaining walls and then the remaining in asphalt and other fees associated with the project. And then that connector will complete that section. As we would complete this, Lundgren would be completing another section at Vasserman Ridge and so then you would have a full loop going all the way around that wetland complex. Without this trail connector, what we're already seeing to date is that Sheriff Bud Olson is mowing a trail in the ditch to allow people to make sure to make that loop that comes all the way around, so right now they're currently walking there, or taking their strollers or running in the ditch at 41, which is not a very comfortable situation. Those are the two connections or the two projects that I'm recommending. There's a photo there of the Meadow Green play equipment. That's a number of years old. It shows it in a condition much better than it currently is today. And then the second mapping is for the connector, the trail connector as shown there on Highway 41, just north of the Pulte development. That's a conservative capital project fund for the most part. We've been around a quarter of a million dollars in what I would call basic projects, and then with the addition of the other projects, the trail projects coming in after that. One thing I wanted to explain that we need to keep in mind is that there are unbudgeted projects that also come along as a part of the capital project fund. The trail that we were to tour tonight at the, what will be the Holiday Inn Express. The development contract mandates that they build the trail. The developer build the trail as it goes in, and it also mandates that the city reimburse them for that cost. When the city enters into those type of development agreements, we have no idea when that future liability will come due. Those contracts are simply in place and the lot sits empty until such time that it's developed, and so we will incur additional costs as that project goes through. We're also collecting trail fees from the development which are offsetting those costs, but we have to know, be aware that those costs will be coming in and we don't know currently what they will be but they will be certainly in the same range as the Highway 41 trail connector, so as that trail comes through, it will be perhaps $50,000, $70,000. And the engineer for that project is currently working on that estimate for the city. When we have that then we'll present that to the park commission and the City Council. So there are other liabilities out there that you need to be made aware of. Stolar: Would those replace this? Hoffman: No. Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Stolar: That's in addition? Hoffman: That's in addition to this. That's why we want to be conservative. Keep that attrition in the budget. We could be more aggressive but we're just going to hurt ourselves in the end. Those projects will not be able to go through if these other trail projects are completed and the city is billed back for those improvements. We're also what I would call the re-building. We need to wait for this economy to kind of level out and re-building contrary for the park dedication fund. To allow it to build back up and allow the economy to come back. Park dedication fees are where your money or your funding is derived and currently we're residential, it's only the apartments which are really driving the fund and then industrial/commercial we're doing fairly well. Where in the past, in the heyday of the growth years in Chanhassen, we were doing 400 building permits a year. 400 building permits a year times 2 V2 thousand dollars per house. That starts to add up. We're no longer in those days of building. I'll be glad to answer questions from the commission. You may elect to change the recommendation of the City Council. Modify it. Ask for further clarification but the budget process is underway. The capital part of the budget is the last thing on the council agenda. They're currently busy setting the budget for the general fund budget and they will I believe one more meeting and they'll be working on that and having the levy amount set so. Franks: Well we'll do that. We'll open it up for any questions. Are there any commissioners with questions regarding the CIP for 2004? Anything on either of these two projects, the Meadow Green playground replacement or the 41 trail connector. Yeah, go ahead. Stolar: I just have one question, if you had a third project, what would that be? Hoffman: There's other trail connectors up on the north end of 101 and then there are also a variety, and that being a trail going from the end of the trail, north end of the trail up into Minnetonka and then also on Pleasant View down to the park. Those two were included last year and were not completed. Then there are 10 of these wood playgrounds. 5 were included last year and they were to include 5 of them this year for a total replacement and so you would start taking those systematically piece by piece. There are 10 systems identical to this one in Meadow Green which are just a few years newer. 2 to 5 years. 2 to 7 years newer than this one and they just don't seem to be as prone to the frost heaving problem as this one is. It have not aged as rapidly. Stolar: Okay. And the splinter problem isn't as bas as this. Hoffman: Not as bad, no. Stolar: Is there one that's close or that you'd just. Hoffman: Minnewashta Heights. And just does not see, this one sees the most significant use. Generates the most complaint calls, but it's also in the worst, the poorest condition. The other thing you need to remember about these wood play structures is that they're becoming very difficult to meet the consumer product safety commission guidelines and the safety guidelines and so the city has a responsibility to start working on those, to take those out because they do not meet the new safety guidelines. Stolar: And what about for the ADA? I mean we had a hope that we were going to get back some of the ADA with this new playground for example Meadow Green. Hoffman: It would be much more compliant in all of those areas. ADA, safety and CPSC, yeah. 10 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Robinson: And would the other wooden playground structures cost about $65,000 to renovate as well, or would it differ with the size? Hoffman: Yeah, differ with the size. Anywhere from about 45 to 100,000. We had Lake Ann and Lake Susan programmed in at about 90,000 to 100,000 because of the size and the significance, but at a smaller neighborhood park you would be more around 45,000. 30 of that being for equipment and about 15 being for the border and the other improvements around it. The landscaping and grading. Robinson: And when would the work be done? The work would begin in the spring? On the trail and the, if that's what we would decide to recommend? Hoffman: The playground would be ordered in probably January-February. It would be put in the spring. The trail connector's going to take a long time for the approval processes with the permitting and then it would probably be a project that would be let late in the year for September-October construction. O'Shea: I just have one thing. Todd, do you get feedback from the neighbors if they have their top 2 or 3 items they'd like to see in the play system? Hoffman: We can work with the neighborhood when you select it. O'Shea: Is that the plan? Hoffman: It has been for all the playgrounds we've put in in the past dozen years or so. O'Shea: How do you know who to contact? Hoffman: Typically we work with an association. So they would have an association. We would contact the association. They would either appoint the association as the contact or call for volunteers. Then we would meet with 8 to 10 people, residents that would meet with. We would solicit proposals from 3 or 4 playground companies. Those proposals would come in. Be reviewed by this group and then the group would make a recommendation to the commission. O'Shea: Oh that's great. Thanks, that's the only thing I had. Franks: And are we still working with neighborhoods, assisting in installation? Hoffman: If that's our choice, yep. They can spend their money, if they don't want to do that. Franks: We're still willing to do that? Hoffman: Oh absolutely. It buys them about another 6 or 7,000 in equipment. Robinson: When you say neighborhood, is that going to be like the people in all those condo's right around there or, because you know that's my neighborhood, so would that include, how big of a section of neighborhood does that include when. Hoffman: Typically it includes, in a new subdivision it includes, like Stone Creek subdivision, down there you would have to pick how far reaching do you get. And then also, Chairman 11 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks the question about will they install. In a new neighborhood there's a lot of zest and excitement for their new park. In this neighborhood there may not be that so we'll have to find out what the desires of the neighborhood am. So we would have to make a choice how far out we want to go. Franks: Then a question I have about the trail connectors. You know that's a pretty steep ditch way down in there. Are there soil, wetland problems that we're going to run into? Hoffman: Probably. Franks: And with retaining wall, I saw that and I thought 90,000 that's, can we do it for 90,000? It seems like there' s going to be a lot of work that will need to go in there. Hoffman: Hopefully I based that estimate on a cost coming out of the 101 trail in which a similar section, so you're looking at a cost of about $70 per foot. Something in that order. Whereas traditional costs are more on the $30 to $40 per foot so. Franks: I've heard a lot of comments about people dead ending or coming down from Longacres thinking they can connect and just getting all kinds of nightmares trying to push the strollers down 41 and when I think of that it's scary so I think this is probably a good project since it looks like it goes through. Hoffman: It should go through. And if the commission is in favor of that I'll go ahead and fine tune that estimate. Again it's difficult to know just how bad the problems are going to be, you're going to run into down them as far as soil problems. And that's always the catch-22. How much do you spend to get a cost estimate if you don't know if the project is going to go or not but we'll put our guess, best estimate in there and allow on the high side for the variables and provide a high contingency because you have to build a wall on the down side slope of the trail and it's going to be tight construction, and the State's going to be very particular about the requirements that they impose on the trail. And when you're building it down below the ditch like that, they're going to want guardrails. That's going to add to the cost. But the comprehensive trail plan identifies a trail north to south and in fact it would either be a city, a state or a county trail all the way from 5 to 7. The county, or State Highway 41 is in very good condition. They're not going to improve it for the next 20 years so there's no hope for a larger project to tag a trail onto so I think it's important that we connect this one little piece and then wait the 10 or 20 years until the future 41 changes and a trail is built all the way along. Atkins: My only question is, I was wondering when Meadow Green play structure was put in? Approximately what year was that? Hoffman: When it was? Atkins: Yeah. Hoffman: Was it noted on the, it should be noted on the sheet. Atkins: 19817 Hoffman: Acquisition in '81. I think the playground went in about '85. In about '85. 16-17-18 years old. 12 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Atkins: Are those fields used a lot down there still? Hoffman: It's not just for the neighborhood but then for the other activity that is taking place down there. Franks: Well they are two good projects. I wish we could do a few more good projects in 2004. Stolar: Chair Franks, I actually would not be in favor of the Highway 41 trail connector. I believe we just spent a million dollars almost on a trail. The way the City Council chose to do the budget and you know my feeling, I'm always for the safety first and I understand there are safety impacts of the 41 trail too but the playground structures are my biggest concern. That's why I ask and I would actually prefer another playground structure put here instead of the connector. The money was put towards the trails. City Council's choice to put it on one instead of across, so I don't know how we would propose that until we have a motion for this and then maybe I can propose that as an amendment. Franks: Do you want to ask what would be the next in line? Stolar: I think you mentioned, I would assume you'll look at the Minnewashta versus one that's more heavily used and close in the safety factors and choose one. Hoffman: We had 5 selected for this year. We just have to go upstairs and grab the budget and I can rattle those right off. Let me head upstairs and grab that. We had 5 for this year and we have 5 for next year so we had them all listed. Stolar: I mean I guess I would wait to see if the rest of my fellow commission members approve because if not, there would be no need to look at the next one. Robinson: Well Glenn my initial thinking was that way too. That's why I was asking about how many parks, playground equipment, how much it would cost and that sort of thing. But then I heard the safety issues with the trail that Chairman Franks brought up as well but I guess I would be more inclined to think of the playground structures as well and possibly we could do 3 depending on how much it costs. Franks: That's why I'd like us to go get. I know I agree too but if we can't do one for, let's see what we can get done and then. Hoffman: We had all the numbers based in there for the playgrounds. The sign we currently have at Pulte says you know trail dead ends because what you don't want to do is get people heading down there and then they say well, instead of going back I'm going to head up to the edge of the highway or go onto the shoulder. So there, the playgrounds are something that are currently in place and we know are currently out of date and in violation of safety standards so, and we send two of our staff to those schools on an annual basis and every time they come back from that school they come back and they talk to me and they say, you know Todd there's nothing you can do with the play structures. They simply need to be replaced at some point. The two biggest issues are entanglement and entrapment. So entanglement are all the points where the drawstrings can get caught in the structures and then entrapment are all the places where a child can get their feet through but their head will not, their feet don't touch the ground before their head catches. And so those are the two biggest concerns. And the play structures continue to improve and in fact some of the metal structures that we have installed over the past dozen years, some of those, the earlier ones have some issues as well, but when those come out, the 13 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 manufacturers are very responsive and they send you out some kits to fix those issues. That's not the case with this wooded structure. These were all purchased from Earl F. Anderson. A company out of Delano, Minnesota and wood was the in thing back in the 80's and that's what everybody was putting in so. All the redwood structure. Two things led to their demise really. Some of the design issues and then all of the big cry over cutting mature redwoods out west. This is all mature redwood product which you no longer can obtain. Robinson: If they're outdated with those safety guidelines, is there going to come a time where the safety, well I don't know what the safety organization is, will come and say you have to replace these by a certain date? Hoffman: No. Robinson: Or are they just no. They just say it's outdated and. Hoffman: City's obligation. Robinson: Okay. Hoffman: Curry Farms Park I believe is another one that we had scheduled for this year. Curry Farms Park, Minnewashta. Franks: They should develop like a plastic spray to encase the wood or something. Stolar: That's a good idea. Franks: You'd think there'd be something like retrofit. Hoffman: We sand them and flip them over. 2003, Curry Farms at 55,000. Meadow Green at 65,000. Minnewashta Heights at 25,000. Lake Ann Park at 90,000. And Lake Susan Park at 115,000. That's 5. The other 5 would be, Carver Beach. We don't have budget numbers attached to these yet. Carver Beach, Rice Marsh Lake Park, Chanhassen Hills and there's one more. Where is it? Oh Bandimere Heights. Bandimere Heights. So structures like Bandimere Heights, Carver Beach and Minnewashta Heights, so when you look at 90,000, you could take any two of those and complete those for 90,000. So you could do 3 for the 155. Franks: Of course like Bandimere Heights, it's not getting a lot of use now, especially with the new structure up on top of the hill. And Minnewashta Heights has, you know I mean people, kids are playing there but that's not a high traffic. Hoffman: It's kind of rejuvenated. Franks: Oh has it now? Hoffman: With the new landscaping and we take a lot of calls from, the neighborhood's turning over. The housing stock so I think we're seeing more people up there. A decision still has to be made such as at Bandimere. You can't just let it sit there and age forever so you either take it out in the name of safety, or you take it out and replace it. And I have the inclination for winter work to bulldoze these 5 structures last December or last January-February. Glad I didn't. 14 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: Well part of me is thinking that that's exactly what we should do. If they're not safe, they're not safe. Robinson: Right. Especially the ones that aren't used as much anyway. Hoffman: That will put you in a very difficult situation but I understand your thinking. If you travel across the country, there are playgrounds which would put these to shame and are playgrounds which, well I said that wrong. There are playgrounds that are much worst than these and so it just brings, you've just got to, but then again if something would ever occur, knowing what we know. Franks: Of these five that we've talked about, other than Meadow Green, which ! think just gets a tremendous amount of use, I'm wondering would you consider the Lake Ann. We're talking about the upper structure, would that be the one that you think would get the next highest amount of use? Hoffman: Yeah. Franks: That would be my guess but. Hoffman: Lake Ann, yeah. Because of the ballfield activity. Franks: Because of the ballfield there. Hoffman: Say you could replace Lake Ann with the trail, dollar for dollar. Stolar: Question is the neighborhood parks have been somewhat ignored. Meadow Green would be one neighborhood, right. So we're talking one neighborhood and one city then in that regard, which it's a nice combination. Hoffman: Lake Ann's probably one of the, it's right up there as far as the age goes and it's got a beautiful location. Stolar: Seems to me that'd be a nice approach. Hoffman: Probably go with that sky tower just like at Bandimere. So you'd go up the three stories to the top enclosure. Top story. Franks: Do they list this stuff on Ebay do you think? Playground structures. Stolar: You'd probably get good wood structures on Ebay. Franks: Well you know Glenn I think I'm agreeing with you in a sense that, we have stuff that's in our system that's not safe that needs replacement and before we maybe go add some new things. When is the Vasserman Ridge, when will they be completing their segment of the trail? Hoffman: Probably yet this fall. Franks: This fall yet. So we could complete the loop then? And be all ready to go. Hoffman: It'd be a horse shoe for a while. 15 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: Yeah, horse shoe for a while. Hoffman: We could also take that time to approach the County. The County is very interested in continuing to advance trails up to the Regional Park. And they just haven't gotten into the program yet of constructing those trails so we could continue to work with them for another year and see if they would be interested in partnering in that project. They would like nothing other than to continue this north to the entrance of Minnewashta Regional Park, and then also apply for ISTEA funding for an underpass. So if we could piggy back on a project of that magnitude, it would make our little portion seem insignificant and perhaps they could pick up the entire project. O'Shea: Could I throw something out Chair Franks? Franks: Go right ahead. O'Shea: I'm thinking that, you know I'm hearing less used...some parks than others. We're not really sure if it's because of the condition the equipment's in or if it's just a not used park as much anymore. ! would like to see some feedback from the neighbors of these 10 parks in a survey form of, and again I think it's a good feedback to hear what they want of, you know how often do they use, in the last year, how often did you use the park? And if you didn't use the park, was it, and have a list. Because of the equipment there. My kids aren't here anymore. I don't have grandkids that, whatever the reason is to get to the bottom of why they either are using it or they aren't using it, and then that's two fold. One, we find out the priority of which we want to replace these, and it also tells us what the demographics are of the neighborhood and the interest that maybe we don't need to replace 10. That some of them might just be a park that takes a different look than having equipment on it. But I think we should get feedback on those 10 parks. Stolar: For 2 of them, or at least 2 we know, Lake Ann and you said the Meadow Green. We do know those are used. The other ones I would agree. Because our playground, we don't take our kids to North Lotus Lake. We won't. We drive to Round Lake in Eden Prairie where they have the new equipment. Because ! am worried about the splinters. Robinson: Well and we don't go to Meadow Green, we go to Carver Beach, which is wooden as well, but it's in better shape. And our whole neighborhood does not Meadow Green. We all go to Carver Beach. Stolar: I mean Amy you're right on. I think we need to understand which neighborhoods are these situations versus demographics and focus. O'Shea: Yeah, because I see not connecting them. This is real hard when you don't have any money to do all the safety issues but the number one concern is always safety, and I do see it being a problem though too, not connecting those two paths on 41 because you are going to create an unsafe situation where people are frustrated and they don't want to turn around and they just go on 41 so both issues I see as a safety concern. Stolar: Well 101's the same thing. Yesterday driving home I was actually thinking about this. Someone was riding on the southbound lane of I01 on the shoulder, which is a right turn lane where I was turning right. They were riding their bike straight to get to Minnetonka to connect to that, so ! understand exactly, and it was dusk. It was getting late. And that was scary. 16 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 O'Shea: Because in winter, are you still, you plow these trails right? Hoffman: We'll stop plowing. We won't plow the trail down to this point. O'Shea: Yeah you'll stop it so they don't see that they can maybe make it...I know that's getting a little off but yeah, that you wouldn't plow right up to where it ends. That's what's tough is they're both safety issues I think, but people will, if they're running or walking, will take the 41. I don't know about a stroller but I do think they'll endanger themselves if we don't connect it. Hoffman: At least they're mowing the trail out of the ditch so. O'Shea: Yeah, that's great. Franks: I think the conversation we're having this evening is going to be very indicative of the conversations we'll be having throughout all of 2004 where we have two meritous projects ahead of us and trying to split these hairs about which one we're going to fund and which one we're going to recommend not being funded. You know I'm sitting back and forth. I can make a safety case on both of these and I'm thinking well, okay how else would I make the argument. One, a trail being mostly used by adults and a park being mostly used by children, and so then we go, I mean I can make these arguments all day. So I think what we should do is just you know go with what our reactions are to this and make a recommendation for the projects in the 2004 CIP and just take it from there. I think doing Meadow Green Park is for sure one we're, ! think we're all consensus about that, and then you know doing the Lake Ann replacement, or the Highway 41 trail connector. Stolar: May I make a suggestion? Because I agree, we aren't going to have a lot of right or wrong's here. It's just a hard choice. I'd like to put this on the table first, as far as a motion so that we can then choose to amend or not. Then we can still discuss it but at least it gets it out on the table. Franks: Sure. Stolar: So I move, we have somewhat parliamentary and we have to approve this first and then... Franks: Yep, yep, yep. Stolar: I make a motion we approve the staff recommendations for the 2004 capital improvement projects. Franks: Alright. Robinson: I second. Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? Seeing none then we'll move to a vote. Stolar: Actually I was going to make the friendly amendment. Or if you want to make the friendly amendment. Robinson: Go ahead. 17 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 (There was a tape change at this point.) Franks: We're going to vote on the amendment, O'Shea: Okay. Which then takes the 41 trail connector off. Franks: If the amendment is approved. Okay. The author has accepted amendment, or created his own friendly amendment. Stolar: Which I probably can't do. Franks: Well we'll let it go. This is friendly participatory government. Stolar moved an amendment to substitute the Highway 41 trail connector with the Lake Ann Park playground replacement in the 2004 CIP program. All voted in favor, except Atkins and O'Shea who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2. Franks: Okay, we have a vote of 3 to 2 on approval of the amendment which would substitute the Lake Ann Park playground replacement for the Highway 41 trail connector. And so the amendment passes. And so we'll call the original question of the motion and Commissioner Stolar, if you just want to re-state the motion as amended so we all have a clear idea here. Stolar: It would be that we recommend the 2004 park and trail acquisition and development capital improvement program to include Meadow Green Park playground replacement estimated at $65,000 and the Lake Ann wood playground structure replacement estimated at $90,000 for a total of $155,000. Franks: Okay, that's the motion before the commission at this time. Stolar moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the 2004 park and trail acquisition and development capital improvement program to include Meadow Green Park playground replacement estimated at $65,000 and the Lake Ann wood playground structure replacement estimated at $90,000 for a total of $155,000. All voted in favor, except Atkins and O'Shea who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2. Franks: The motion carries. I would like to open it up though to the two dissenters to, if they choose, to make their opinion about this issue. Commissioner O'Shea. O'Shea: Like I said before, they're both safety issues but I see that, I see a real high need to connect Highway 41 as fast as we can because it's so heavily used. And I'm afraid someone's going to go on the highway and get hurt is why I voted for that, And the other thing, and I know you don't wait for incident reports but have there been a lot of calls of people getting hurt on those wood playgrounds? Hoffman: Oh yeah. All the time. O'Shea: Okay. That's my reason for nay. Atkins: I'm also in favor of trail connectors whenever they come up. It's very important to me. I have had experience at the Lake Ann playground this summer with my grandson and some other 18 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 small neighborhood children who, it appeared to me that things were functioning pretty well and it didn't look like it was in terrible shape to me. I'd like a little bit more feedback about that particular park before I'd want to spend that much money on it. Franks: Thank you. Stolar: And just I feel badly that we kind of pushed something through. I mean I think we all agree that they're all safety issues and I hope that we'll all work together to try and figure out a way to get to our City Council with the goal of trying to understand the safety issues, and I don't know if that's reflected to them in this minutes but I'm not going to be here September 15th when we meet with them unfortunately but I think it's worth bringing up. That we all felt all of these things were important safety issues. Franks: Todd I think you're hearing too, we really encourage you and staff to work with any other agency to assist in furthering any of the trail projects, and especially this one. My experience is it's a lot easier to get someone on board to help with a trail than to get a playgrounds installed so I think the likelihood of getting someone to help us with that project is greater than getting someone to help us with our city's responsibility of these play structures so. I agree with Glenn, with you about the dissention in the vote knowing indicates to me that we have dissention. In fact I appreciate some difference of opinion and the willingness of those with some different perspectives so. Stolar: Yeah, and I just want to say supporting them is really what I was saying. I also view the 41 trail as a very important safety issue. Franks: Great. I don't think this is going to be the last time this comes up this way. Do you feel clear on that? Hoffman: Perfectly. Well, in following up on your discussion, the issue of the safety on those wood playground structures can be very finite. Can be explained in a very finite fashion. I've chosen not to do that because if you do that, this type of study and bring down those people, you're going to rip them all out tomorrow. And so you can play that game or you can play the soft approach where you just you know, we want to get every possible year out of these until we replace them, but if you knew the potential hazards of those playgrounds, if you're thinking about it before you go to sleep at night, you're not going to sleep well. Franks: I'm still toying with the idea of the bulldozer. Hoffman: And if you ask for a presentation on the issues surrounding all those playgrounds, I'll be glad to present that but it's going to put you in a position that you may not want to be in. Robinson: Can I ask one more question about the trail on 41. You said there's a sign that it says trail ends. I'm wondering does it increase liability or something like that if we would put a more strong sign saying do not use 41 or you know, I don't know how to state it but something that would state you know don't continue any further type of thing because the trail ends. I don't know what to state but. Franks: Well we have the sheriff mowing the ditch so. Robinson: Well yeah, we have that right now so, so that's good. 19 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 O'Shea: Sometimes if you put it in writing it works against you that they'll say you knew that this was. Robinson: Right, that's a liability factor. O'Shea: Yeah, and it hence your liability. But Todd, do you think you could survey the people? Hoffman: Sure. I'll bring back a draft of the survey to the commission because it's going to be, are you going to mail it to every neighborhood, every house and then once it's going to say. Maybe do it over this winter. You want to get valuable data back because once you send it out to 75 homes in one neighborhood, you may see 5 of them come back and does 5 of 75 provide you with a valid idea? Probably not. So the survey has to be done correctly. UPDATE ON PAINT BALL ISSUE. Franks: Great, let's move on to old business. We have a quick update on the paint ball issue. Hoffman: Just wanted to provide the commission with the update on the City Council action and the Villager article provides that. Sergeant Olson and myself, we provided an update for the council. I could not support paint ball at a public park setting. We don't have a city in the county that provides paint ball anywhere within their community. And I've not found in public park settings that there are public parks that provide this type of a service. Council, they suggested that perhaps the council could support a private property. Council did not support on private property. Again Sergeant Jim Olson was very clear in the fact that there is not a city in the whole county that allows this to happen and so the ordinance will remain as it is today and that's where the paint ball issue is at the time. Franks: Sounds good. THREE RIVERS PARK DISTRICT WINTER TRAIL ACTIVITIES PERMIT RENEWAL. Hoffman: On an annual basis we are given the opportunity to create a snowmobile trail in the southern reaches of the city on the LRT. Eden Prairie does not allow snowmobiling in their city, so the trail does not extend to the east but it does extend to the west in Chaska. The City of Chaska which has a permitted trail in their city. And then off to the west into the Minnesota River Valley. There are only two trails remaining in the city for snowmobiling. If you think of it in a fashion that we're just trying to hang on to snowmobiling in the city for as long as possible. The thing that is driving it out is the urbanization of our roadways so as you take the ditches away and you put in urban sections with trails, such as the frontage road going out all the way to 41. Formerly that was a very heavily trafficked snowmobile section. It still is today but they don't have enough...so there's conflicts between snowmobiles on and off trails and those types of things. But this is one of the trails going to the south. The other goes west out of Chanhassen, and so we've not had any issues with it. It provides a good outlet to our community for those who choose to snowmobile, use that sport. It's a great activity. We've had no letters of conflict between who uses the trails. In fact when the commission approves this as a snowmobile, you are in fact saying that there are no other permitted uses, walking, cross country skiing. However, in reality you see a lot of, a good deal of walking on this trail because the snowmobiles pack it down and provides a very nice walking trail. So it's the staff recommendation that the commission recommend the City Council approve the south LRT again for the 2003-2004 season as a designated snowmobile trail in the city of Chanhassen. 20 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: Thank you. It's something we've done every year for a long time so with that, it's the first time for some of you so you may have some questions. Are there any questions regarding the permitting for the snowmobile usage? Well I'm sure we'll be hearing from the snowmobile association at some time this year. Hoffman: To my knowledge, I think we're the only city that allows it now. I'm not sure if Victoria is still on track or not. Franks: Any other questions or comments? O'Shea: I just have one quick one. Franks: You go right ahead. O'Shea: Are they allowed on Highway 5 yet then? On the frontage road, the snowmobiles? Hoffman: Yes. O'Shea: But not on Galpin, correct? Just on 5. Hoffman: Well county roads are still permitted by state law, so Galpin's a county road. They're also permitted on streets in Chanhassen when there's snow cover, so as long as you're at 10 miles per hour or below, your neighbor can take off out of their driveway and go down your street to access either a ditch, which is permitted by state law, or a designated snowmobile trail in the city of Chanhassen. Franks: Except not on the trail. O'Shea: Okay. Yeah, the reason I ask is, there's always someone who ruins it for other snowmobilers and I've seen them on the Galpin trail a lot, or a significant amount to create some concern with me. But Eden Prairie you're saying and Chaska don't allow even like Chanhassen does, right? You can't. Hoffman: Eden Prairie you can't snowmobile at all. You have to trailer. In Chaska, I'm not sure. I believe they still allow snowmobiling out of the garages. O'Shea: Okay. Franks: Okay? Seeing that there's no more discussion or questions, do we have a motion? Robinson: I move to recommend to the City Council to approve the application of the Three Rivers Park District for the 2003-2004 winter trail use for snowmobiles on the Southwest Light Rail Transit trails as stated in the August 15th memorandum. Do I have to say all that? Franks: Great motion Susan, thank you. Is there a second to that wonderful motion? Stolar: Second. Robinson moved, Stolar seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the application of the Three Rivers Park District for the 21 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 2003-2004 winter trail use for snowmobiles on the Southwest Light Rail Transit trail in Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Franks: Do we still have a snowmobile club here in Chan? Hoffman: Yes we do. Franks: Alright. And what month will they be stopping by to see us? Hoffman: I'm not sure that they will, but they might stop in November-December. I can request that they stop in. Franks: Why don't you. RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS. DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RACE. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks. The fourth annual Dave Huffman Race is coming up. Had another meeting tonight at 5:00 at the Americlnn to discuss a lot of the busy work. It's going to be coming up upon us here very shortly. Just a lot of busy work going on right now. Kind of coordinating all the details and the event that day. There's a lot of things already put into place. Registrations have been really have been starting to pick up here the tail end of August, which is not uncommon. It's always really slow throughout the course of the summer. We have roughly about 70 people signed up right now, which is on track. A good bulk of the people sign up the day of the event. Half of those 70 people have been, have registered on line so I think it's helped that we've had information there, and certainly on our city web page. We do have the Dave Huffman web site as well that people can register on line with that as well. The furthest registration right now is from Salt Lake City so there's somebody coming from Salt Lake City to run. Something new and expanded again this year is the kids race. We're going to be separating that out. Chairperson Kelly or Park and Recreation Commissioner Kelly has been kind of chairing that event a little... It looks like we're going to be having two age groups in the fun run this year. We're going to be separating those out and doing a little bit different course. For those we have Ragnar coming back this year, and Viking's cheerleaders to cheer on the children as they come across the finish line and pass out medals to every participant. That event is free for the kids and you know unfortunately with the economy we've lost some key sponsorships with our free t-shirts from the past 3 years. We've lost that but gain a little bit more money in another area so we're going to have to take on about 90 percent of the shirt cost this year for the event. We'll certainly work for future years on securing another sponsorship, but what that means in the short run is that we will not be contributing as much money as we have to local charities as we have in the past so. Which it will be fine. I mean everybody is kind of going through some hiccups in the road and bumps in the road these days so we'll survive and certainly with, we've downsized some t-shirts, the quantities and some other things to try and save some money on that so. Everything will be just fine. Talked to Cathy Huffman a couple days ago. She's definitely planning on coming up with the kids and she's bringing her mother this year for the event. She always looks forward to coming back up to Minnesota and visiting her old neighborhood. She has many, many friends in the area and is very happy with the progress and the event of the 5K race so she said that, and the kids I think enjoy coming back and seeing and hearing about their dad. They both were pretty young when he had passed so I think they also enjoy hearing stories from community members and really shedding light on who Dave really was. Much more than a football player personality. He was a very kind hearted man and they're finding that out so. 22 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Other than that, that's I think the memo pretty much says a lot of kind of what we've been working on. We'll work hard to make that event successful again. Franks: Any questions? You've all signed up? You're in training? Ruegemer: Got a couple weeks to train. You can also walk it if you'd like. Franks: You know since they don't time the kids on the fun run, Ruegemer: No. Franks: I know they don't, but have they ever considered like doing, like just a phony water stop. They would get the hugest kick out of that. You know what I mean, just because it. Ruegemer: You could even have water. Franks: That's what I mean. Ruegemer: The water stop can be the running over the bridge. You jump in the water. Franks: But ! mean you know, it'd be like the grown up's. Right, it'd be like the same kind of thing. Ruegemer: We're not getting that specific in the kids race yet. Franks: Just something to consider. You know they want to be just like the big guys. Stolar: How long is the kids race? Ruegemer: Not even a quarter of a mile. Hoffman: Round the block. Robinson: And what are the two age groups this year? Ruegemer: It's going to be 4 to 8 and 9 to 12 I believe. There's also, Howard and Tom have developed a specific plan for that and they're working on recording that and getting that to the schools the first week of school. Robinson: And does that, does the kids run occur right before the. Ruegemer: It will be after the main race at 10:15, so when that race is finished. Franks: And we, well what about volunteering? Ruegemer: Would you like to volunteer? Franks: Well is that going to be necessary? I mean do you need? Ruegemer: You bet. I don't have a volunteer sheet here tonight but I can send out e-mails. 23 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: If you haven't, either been out to it or worked at it, it's just a blast. It's just a really fun event to be at. Ruegemer: It's a real quick event. It starts the first thing in the morning and everything is wrapped for the most part by 10:30. 10:00-10:30. Franks: Can't wait. Ruegemer: And we have the super star coming back so that should be fun. Hopefully he can lead the race on his motorcycle this year. Franks: Alrighty. RECREATION PROGRAMS. Ruegemer: Just a quick overview of some of the programs that are going to be offered this year, or this fall for our community. One of the things that was really a big hit for us last year, if you look down at the youth programs was the Little Shooters basketball clinics out on Sunday afternoons out at the Rec Center last year. Kind of coordinated in conjunction with Kevin Lynch, former Gopher and former professional basketball player and his brother Mike have been kind of the coordinators of Little Shooters. They approached us and we worked together on creating a very successful program and we added at least one more session this year so we're trying to accommodate some more people this year so. It was a good thing for us. It's an additional revenue maker for us and we're certainly trying to look for additional programs such as this to certainly increase our bottom dollar in revenues for the year. Franks: Any questions regarding any of the recreation programs? Atkins: What's Great Reactions? Ruegemer: You'd think the superintendent would know. Franks: That's a chemistry science, that's what I'm assuming. Ruegemer: I thought you were talking about softball. We doubled our softball program. Franks: And will Corey be around next month to give us some ideas on the plans for the Halloween party then? Ruegemer: Sure. Franks: And we would like to pre-approve the Halloween flyer this year prior to it's dissemination so. Any other questions or comments regarding the fall recreation line-up? Wonderful. Thank you Jerry. Good job. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. 24 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Atkins: Were there only three comment cards returned? Hoffman: Yes. Franks: Anything anyone? Hoffman: The Center Point Energy grant application was approved. On September 22na present the check to the City Council. They were very happy to provide the dollars for the replacement of those 4 trees that were taken out here in the project. You saw that in the paper. And also remember before our next meeting, September 15th, there will be a joint meeting with the City Council. I do not know the agenda as of yet, but you'll receive a packet in the mail. O'Shea: Do you know the timing? Hoffman: No I do not. Franks: We don't know the time either do we? Hoffman: Once I know I'll shoot it your way immediately. Stolar: Todd, on grants and donations, I forgot to bring my pictures, I was in Marquette, Michigan a couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago, and their major city park playground had sponsorship plaques all over. Like pieces of equipment, a little piece, each piece had a sponsor. Something we ought to think about as funding for these playground replacements. Especially something like a Lake Ann. And it was individual families or businesses. ! have pictures that I took. Franks: I was going to say, you did take actual photographs? Stolar: Yes. And in fact actually in one area they had these wood slats and families could buy them and have their names right on the wood slats. It was, and just have their names on it and they did it for the entire structure. It was a very big structure too. Of course it was wood. Robinson: I think down in Rochester too they've got that great big huge, and they've got sponsorships all over that one too. Rochester, Minnesota. Stolar: It's something to think about. And I was just wondering, is there something, and I apologize for going backwards on the agenda. Is this something that we just want a couple of people to maybe work with staff to figure out ways we can try and help replace those playground structures that might help us without a major funding such as raising money or per the survey, maybe seeing if neighborhoods would donate a lot of their time to help do it or even donate some money and get their names on it. It's something to think about. I'll send you the pictures. I know I'll never remember to bring them. Hoffman: Yeah, send them over. Plymouth just did that at their, with their lending garden. Franks: I'm all in favor of creation of a committee of this body to explore and do some real legwork on something like that. All it really takes is someone who wants to take the lead on that one and grab a few commissioners to get on board with him so. Hoffman: Probably wait til Tom and Jack are back. 25 Chanhassen Park and Rec Meeting - August 26, 2003 Franks: Yeah, I think we should have a full compliment before we do that. But I hear some leadership already. Seeing that there are no other comments regarding the administrative packet we'll move on to adjournment. Chairman Franks adjourned the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 26