4 Amendment for PorchesCITYOF
CHANHASE
590 G~v Center Drive, PO Box 147
Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317
Phone 612. 937.1900
Generd F~v 612.937.5739
Engineering Fax' 612.93Z9152
Public SafeO, Fax 612. 934. 2524
Web wwu:ci, chant~assen, mn. us
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Planning Commission
FROM:
Sharmin A1-Jaff, Senior Planner
DATE:
Apfill9,2000
SUB J:
Zoning Ordinance Amendment.to Section 20-908. Yard Regulations
(5), To Allow Porches To Encroach 10 Feet Into A Required Front
Yard Setback
On February 16, 2000, the Planning Commission reviewed and tabled action on
this ordinance amendment. Staff was directed to clarify the intent of the
ordinance and define open porches and balconies. There was also a discussion
regarding the size of the porch and if balconies should be permitted.
To address these issues, we first defined balconies and porches since there was no
definition of these two structures in the zoning ordinance (Chapter 20-1). We
then limited the type of porch (unenclosed) that may be permitted to encroach 10
feet into the required front yard.
Another concem the commission had was the mass of a balcony encroaching 10
feet into the front yard. We limited the balconies to a platform with open railing
only.
The language in the intent section that formerly limited the size of a porch was
revised. The area of the porch will be determined by the size of the front yard and
the setback from the front property line.
The following are the recommended changes:
Section 20-1 Definitions:
Balcony: A.platform, minimum of 71/2 feet above the ground, that projects
from the wall of a building and is surrounded by an open railing.
Porch: A roofed open area, attached to or part of, and with direct access to or
from a building. A porch becomes a room when the space is heated, air-
conditioned, glassed in, Or when the percentage of window area to wall area
is less than 50 percent.
The City o£Chanhassen, lq ~'owh~ commun/~, w/th clean lakesl aualit~, schoo{s, a cha,nin¢ downtown, thrivin~ businesses, and beautiful oarks. A ¢~vat vlace to live, work, and olay.
Planning Commission
April 13, 2000
Page 2
Sec. 20-908. Yard Regulation:
"The intent of this section is to allow homes built prior to February 19, 1987 the adoption
of the ordinance that need to add a porch as an architectural feature to define the entrance
into a residence or update a front elevation. This aroa shall be limited in size allowing for
minimal s~ating area and This area shall not be enclosed nor screened with mesh, glass,
or other similar material.
f(1)
Homes built prior to February 19, 1987 may have open porches and/or balconies
that project a distance not exceeding ten (10) feet, provided they maintain a
minimum front yard setback of 20 feet. The ten (10) feet shall include the roofline,
support columns, and steps. Homes that are on the National Register listing or have
been considered eligible for listing on the National Register shall be excluded from
this ordinance unless approved by the National Historical Registrar's Office."
Homes that have been granted variances to build porches within a front yard setback:
6735 Nez Perce Drive (Variance was granted to allow the porch to encroach 8.5 feet into the
required front yard setback).
Planning Commission
April 13, 2000
Page 3
.. :::c. T,'
?,
8028 D~ota Avenue (Porch Addition ~der construction. Vafi~ce was ~anted to allow the
porch to encroach 8 feet imo the required ~ont ymd setback).
......... I[1111 IIIII....l[~,,?: ".?"W,
8028 Dakota Avenue (Before Porch Addition).
Planning Commission
April 13, 2000
Page 4
RECOMMENDATION:
Staff recommends the Planning Commission recommend approval of Zoning Ordinance
Amendment to Section 20-1 Definitions to add the following:
Section 20-1 Definitions:
Balcony: A platform, minimum of 71/2 feet above the ground, that projects from the wall of a
building and is surrounded by an open railing.
Porch: A roofed open area, attached to or part of, and with direct access to or from a Building.
porch becomes a room when the space is heated, air-conditioned, glassed in, or when the
percentage of window area to wall area is less than 50 percent.
A
Sec. 20-908. Yard Regulation:
"The intent of this section is to allow homes built prior to February 19, 1987 to add a porch
as an architectural feature to define the entrance into a residence or update a front elevation.
This area shall not be enclosed nor screened with mesh, glass, or other similar material.
f(1)
Homes built prior to February 19, 1987 may have open porches and/or balconies
that project a distance not exceeding ten (10) feet, provided they maintain a
minimum front yard setback of 20 feet. The ten (10) feet shall include the roofline,
support columns, and steps. Homes that are on the National Register listing or have
been considered eligible for listing on the National Register shall be excluded from
this ordinance unless approved by the National Historical Registrar's Office."
ATTACHMENTS
1. Planning Commission minutes dated February 16, 2000.
g:\plan~sa\porch.doc
Planning Commission Meeting-February 16, 2000
PUBLIC HEARING:
CONSIDER AN AMENDMENT TO SECTION 20-908. YARD REGULATIONS. (5), TO
ALLOW PORCHES TO ENCROACH 10 FEET INTO A REQUIRED FRONT YARD
SETBACK.
Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item.
Conrad: Questions of staff, anybody?
Kind: Yes. Bob, one of the applicants that kind of precipitated this whole investigation was this
Carver Beach applicant. Will they be notified of this change?
Generous: Oh that, thank you for. If this goes through we'll notify everyone who either has been
denied or quit the process.
Kind: Good. Good. And you've got a good list then.
Generous: Yes.
Kind: Good. Glad to hear that. And then in the staff report it was mentioned that the possibility
to limit the porches to just the first floor. I'm interested in your perspective on that.
Generous: Well I love some of the,designs you can do with a porch and then above that another
porch.
Kind: I think it's number 20.
Generous: Yes. We don't see a lot of that but I think that would be an enhancement to the
community if we would permit that. The only issue, you don't want them, again we're concerned
with then creating permanent living area.
Kind: That would be my concern with number 20.
Generous: ...but under this the ordinance is specific. It's unenclosed.
Burton: Mr. Chairman, I'm just looking at what your recommended language is and the first
sentence basically is intent and then you have the next sentence which is this area shall be
limited. I guess a couple comments. One is I think it should be for a minimal seating area, but I
wonder if that whole paragraph shouldn't be like a statement of your intent and then the next
would be what you're actually saying the requirements would be. And when you say the size
allowing for minimal seating area, I also question whether we even need to say that. If you only
Planning Commission Meeting-February 16, 2000
have 10 feet, I mean what do we care what they do in there? It's just 10 feet. So I just question,
maybe you can say, part of the intent is to allow for a minimal seating area and then the next
section be what the ordinance is. I don't know, those are just the thoughts I had. I just, I'm
wondering a bit about the wording.
Conrad: Yeah, I'd buy that. What do you think Bob?
Burton: I think maybe just make the two paragraphs (f) and (g). I think make (f) a statement of
intention and (g) what the requirement is perhaps. And the semi colon kind of makes me think
they run together but usually they say that...
Conrad: You're trying to, basically you're saying to give people outside access in the porch but
not to really occupy too much of that front setback area. That's your intent here for homes built
before '87. So I think that's, I think Matt's right Bob.
Kind: Mr. Chairman, I have another question. If the applicant, or a homeowner goes to the
building department to get a permit to enclose a porch, is that a flag that's raised to you to
investigate what the setback is?
Generous: Yes because it gets routed through our department. All remodels.
Kind: Okay. I was just wondering how this not enclosing it would be enforced. Because you
pay attention.
Generous: Oh yeah.
Kind: Thank you.
Conrad: Anything else? Okay, public hearing. Open for public comments. Anybody?
Anything? Boy, pick on you. You're the only ones left.
Audience: Just watching.
Conrad: Nann, would you pan over? No, we won't put you on camera. There's nobody
watching, don't worry about that.
Kind moved, Sidney seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed.
Conrad: Anything else? Any comments on the motion?
Kind: I'm interested in hearing comments from, when you do your discussion about the second
level or not. Whether you like that idea ora porch being on a second level or not. Got you
LuAnn.
9
Planning Commission Meeting-February 16, 2000
Sidney: I think I like this, well the look of the home that would, that you would get out of this
type of a situation rather than the two story.
Kind: But the motion does not exclude two stories. Two story porches so that would need to be
changed in that motion, that's in our staff report. Right?
Sidney: I guess if you want to get that...
Conrad: Why do you say that though? Why does it, it's not restricted to the second floor, right?
Kind: With this motion you could have a two story porch.
Conrad: Right. And so you don't like that idea?
Kind: I'm not sure ifI like that idea. I'm interested in other people's comments.
Conrad: Okay. Burton: I think, I have no problem with it. I think people would generally make
a porch look nice and reasonable for whatever house they have. I don't think you'd have a really
small house that would put on a two story porch, and I think that the picture we have in our
packet of a house with the two stories, I think that suits that house very well. And actually
there's a couple of them now that I'm looking here, so I don't have a problem with it. If it fits
the house, I think it's a nice addition.
Kind: My concern is if it's going 10 feet into the setback, that that's a pretty big mass out
towards the street side. And it sort of becomes more house rather than a porch.
Blackowiak: Well I have a couple thoughts. First, as long as it's not enclosed I don't think that
it's going to add a lot to the mass of the house. It will tend to look a little bit lighter. And
secondly, I don't believe there are too many houses or too many designs that will retrofit well
with a two story porch. There might be some but I mean that's a fairly major you know remodel
job when you're talking access from the second floor. I mean structurally to beef it up so it can
have a second floor. I mean it's.
Sidney: Footings.
Blackowiak: Yeah, I mean that's a fairly major, I would think that people would maybe spend
their money differently. I could be wrong but that would be my feeling.
Conrad: It doesn't seem like a big deal.
Blackowiak: I don't think so. I would say that there would be so few and far between that I
would not, and you know if somebody really had their heart set on a second story porch and it
worked with the house, and they had the space, go for it.
10
Planning Commission Meeting- February 16, 2000
Burton: If we find there are a lot of them and we think it's a problem, we could revisit it. I'm
highly doubting that that's going to happen.
Conrad: Well it's a nice question because, nice question. Can you screen this in? Is this
meaning screened or is this open?
Generous: This is open.
Kind: Screening is enclosing?
Generous: Well we had that discussion at the staff level and we're still.
Conrad: It's open. This copy doesn't say, so let's talk about it because people, that would be an
issue. They will be here saying, it's not really a porch. It's a floor and in Minnesota to have a
porch and not a screen, you know it's like, I'm not sure. Porches would be a misnomer here.
Porches.
Kind: So you think they should be able to be screened?
Conrad: Well, I haven't thought about it seriously. It just struck me that if you do have a porch,
if you want a porch, it should be screened because of the mosquitoes here. You can't typically in
Minnesota in the summer.., so what do we want to do?
Burton: Homes that we have, I don't think these are typically porches that you would anticipate
being screened.
Kind: Oh yes. Some of them.
Burton: I think we should define then, define the word enclosed and exclude say just open air
and make no screening or any other.
Conrad: Keep it open Matt? Is that your opinion?
Burton: That's my opinion.
Conrad: LuAnn?
Sidney: Yes I agree.
Conrad: Deb?
Kind: I have a screened porch in my house and I love it.
Blackowiak: But there's lots of space in the back.
11
Planning Commission Meeting-February 16, 2000
Kind: Yeah the back. And I think putting screens on it does give it a mass. A certain kind of
mass and it makes it easy for future homeowner or that same homeowner to say, well I want
windows you know.
Conrad: With screen you build a half wall and yeah. So what's the intent here. Just to give
them a floor?
Burton: The intent here is to add some aesthetics to the house and that's why we're limiting the
area. So I don't think that they're going to be hanging out in these small porches anyway.
Conrad: Do you buy that Alison?
Blackowiak: I do.
Conrad: Okay. Make sure that's clear in the motion, whoever makes it. Because it's not clear
right now and they'll be here. They will be. So I heard two good things. The intent should be
cleaned up. I heard we should really, whoever makes the motion, clean up the language. Staff
can clean the language up but somehow make sure that they do it on their time when we're not
here. Anything else? Can somebody make a motion?
Kind: Mr. Chair, I'I1 make an attempt. I would move the Planning Commission recommend
approval of Zoning Ordinance amendment to Section 20-908, Yard Regulations, to read as
follows. The intent of this section is to allow homes built prior to the adoption of the ordinance
that need to add a porch as an architectural feature to define the entrance into a residence, or to
allow for a minimal seating area.
Burton: Did you say or to allow?
Kind: Yes. That's not a complete sentence.
Conrad: What are you trying to do?
Kind: Prior to the adoption of the ordinance, oh I hate to work this out. The intent of this section
is to allow homes built prior to the adoption of the ordinance that need to add on a porch as an
architectural feature, that they be allowed to do so. Do you get the drift there Bob?
Generous: Yes.
Kind: Okay. Homes, and then the second part, leave it the way it is and add two sentences after
the second sentence. First sentence is, porches may not extend. Oh, I'm going to, never mind.
You can just...that one. Okay, one more sentence. Porches may not be screened or enclosed in
the future.
Conrad: Okay. Is there a second?
12
Planning Commission Meeting- February 16, 2000
Kind: It's a mess.
Conrad: That's okay. Is there a second?
Blackowiak: I'd like to make a friendly amendment before. I worry about the word need. That
needs to add a porch. Desire. I mean choose. Is there a better word?
Generous: How about just delete that need and ordinance to add a porch?
Conrad: I don't want to really word smith this. That's their job but the intent is important.
Burton: Mr. Chairman, maybe we can, this is a discussion but maybe we just throw the whole
thing out and just.
Conrad: We're really out of, we haven't even got a second to this so.
Burton: So I can't discuss iff
Conrad: We're not supposed to.
Burton: Okay, I'll second it.
Conrad; But it's good conversation.
Burton: But my comments would be I think we should just throw the whole thing out and say to
staff, redraft it based on our comments.
' Conrad: And bring it back?
Burton: Well, sure. It's not a big rush here.
Conrad: Yeah. No rush Bob is there?
Burton: I would imagine. Is there something?
Generous: Construction season's off a few months.
Conrad: Yeah, and we've had the public hearing so you can bring it back really as an
administrative. Well it's not administrative but really, yeah it's old business. Let's do that.
Kind: You understand the drift.
Burton: So I will.
13
Planning Commission Meeting- February 16, 2000
Conrad: Yeah, there was a motion made and seconded. And we could vote on it and mm it
down or you could withdraw your motion.
Kind: I withdraw the motion.
Conrad: Okay, and you withdraw your second obviously so would there be a motion to table
this?
Blackowiak: I'll move to table it.
Kind: Second.
Conrad: Any discussion?
Blackowiak moved, Kind seconded to table an amendment to Section 20-908, Yard
Regulations and direct staff to bring back a new draft based on the Planning Commission's
discussion. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Conrad: Thank you for coming tonight.
Audience: ...Boy Scouts communication.
Conrad: Well, they didn't learn much tonight.
Audience: Well they fulfill the requirement.
Burton: Picked a good night for tha, t.
Conrad: Yeah, how lucky is that?
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Alison Blackowiak noted the Minutes of the Planning
Commission meeting dated January 19, 2000 as presented.
OLD BUSINESS.
Generous: Both Powers Ridge and Marsh Glen were tabled. Powers Ridge they wanted to give
the neighbors additional time, or council additional time to understand the building constraints
on the site and how it's designed. Then for Marsh Glen they wanted to provide neighbors with
additional opportunity to think what else could happen there.
Conrad: And they'll think about that.
Generous: Ongoing items. The Planning Commission openings. They're being advertised.
They're closing on March 6th. March 15th the Planning Commission will interview applicants.
And then on April 3rd the applicants will be interviewed by City Council at a work session.
14