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PRC 2003 09 23CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 23, 2003 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Glenn Stolar, Amy O'Shea, Susan Robinson, Jack Spizale, Tom Kelly and Paula Atkins STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent; Corey Hoen, Recreation Supervisor; Susan Marek, Recreation Center Manager; and Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Chairman Franks accepted the agenda as presented. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved, Spizale seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated August 26, 2003 as presented. MRPA PARK COMMISSIONERS WORKSHOP. Hoffman: Just want to bring this to your attention. Our executive director, John Gurban is setting up a workshop for commissioners, specifically for commissioners to offer some insight to park planning and some other areas related to the profession so mark it on your calendar as we draw closer to that date. We'll set up a carpool for those who can attend and I'll send out an e- mail to tally up an attendance sheet. Franks: Do you want us to do that right now? Hoffman: Sure, if you want to. If you have your calendars. Franks: Do you want to do it by e-mail? Okay, we'll do that. Okay. Great Todd. We'll look for that e-mail and those who respond. Hoffman: It's an offnight Tuesday so it's the second Tuesday of the month. Franks: Great. Any other old business? 2004 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT~ CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP). Hoffman: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. I handed out a supplementary report tonight. It's dated September 23rd, today. It talks about the condition of the wood playground structures. In this report is a, oh coming out of the joint meeting between the City Council and the Park Commission where we talked about the lack of park dedication dollars. But the council said don't let that stop you from continuing to pursue your capital replacement items. Send those items up to the council's attention and propose an alternative funding source and see if Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 those can be mixed in with the other capital purchases on an annual basis. So what I've done is broken down, we have 10 wood playgrounds. Those are the ones we're most concerned about. Our metal structures are in relatively good condition. We have on the left a column talking about the top 10 worst playground, worst being number 1. Tenth at the bottom. You list those down. Second column to the right is the highest used so it makes sense that you would want to replace the ones which receive the highest use and are also in the worst condition. You tally the two scores and you get an overall ranking, starting with a 4 and a 5 and a 6 and a 9 and on down. So then you have Lake Ann, Meadow Green, Lake Susan and on down to 10. And then the dollar amount is the dollar amount allocated in the 5 year CIP for each one of those individual playgrounds. If they were listed, there's about 4 that I believe that were not listed so you add all of those up and you have a $595,000 capital replacement item. It's recommended that we request the City Council look at that over a 3 year time schedule, with a recommended funding source of capital equipment bonds and year one, taking the two 3. Lake Ann, Meadow Green and Lake Susan totaling 270. Year 2, replacing North Lotus, Curry Farms Park and Chan Hills totaling $175,000. And then year 3, doing some of the smaller parks, Minnewashta Heights, Rice Marsh Park, Carver Beach Playground and Bandimere Heights Park totaling $150,000. So that's a single item dealing with a single issue, the wood playgrounds. There are other items that are listed in your 5 year CIP under 2003 which were not completed. And then under 2004, next year which are not currently being discussed as a part of our recommendation to the City Council. If you would like to as a commission go ahead and talk about some of those items outside of the playgrounds, that would be up to the commission. And we also had to take a shot at this over the winter and really start to push this process out. And really what I see doing is, anything that is repair or betterment or replacement, we're going to be asking for alternative funding sources and then the new equipment would be coming out of Fund 410. And that's been a proposal in the past but has not been reality. And I think based on our current economic situation, it has to be a reality. There's just no other way to do it so that's how we'll attack the CIP later on this winter but for right now we would like to get a recommendation up to the City Council as a part of this fall's capital plan. Be glad to answer questions and engage in a conversation with the commission about this item. Franks: Thank you Todd. Before we engage in that conversation let's just take you up on fielding some questions, if any of the commissioners have any. And Jack, let's start with you. Spizale: Not at this time. Franks: Okay, Susan. Robinson: I'd like to know if staff has any comments on the other improvements that could be made. Would you rank those at all? Have you discussed that at all? Hoffman: No. The one that we talked about, the trail improvements always rank second and the one on 41 was an improvement that the commission was interested in at our last meeting. And then also the trail connection up on the north side of 101. Where continue that piece down Pleasant View and then up to Minnetonka. Franks: Amy. O'Shea: Just to clarify to make sure I'm thinking properly. Is this money park dedication dollars? No. So we don't have to. 2 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Hoffman: Capital bonding money. So on an annual basis the city bonds for capital improvements. Equipment purchases. Capital improvements and that money is always as a premium and so in the past, with Fund 410, park dedication dollars being available, past councils have always said well it would be nice to purchase these things on the regular capital budget over these park dedication dollars. Well now that they're gone we have to get in the game so to speak on some of those regular capital dollars. O'Shea: Okay. Then looking at the memo that was handed out with highest use. Do you have a figure of what is Lake Ann' s usage number wise? Just ballpark. Hoffman: Ballpark, yeah. Based on the amount of activities going on. The amount of use we see as a staff over the years and there are no numbers attached to this. O'Shea: Okay, then when I look at 9 and 10, Minnewashta and Bandimere. With the least use. I mean is least used still significantly used or is it maybe you'll see 4 kids there in a week? Just to give me an idea. Hoffman: Well the Minnewashta neighborhood's gone through a transition. For a while there the park, Minnewashta Heights saw very little use but now I think there's some turnover in the housing and the families and there's people back out playing on the playgrounds. It's probably going to be, depending on the time of year, you know 20 some kids a week. It may be 20 some kids a day depending on the day. And then Bandimere Heights is just below Bandimere Park and a majority of the children just head right up on the trail to the big structure which you can see from the small one, so there's really a question in the future when that playground is up for replacement, should it be replaced at all. Or should it just be taken out and then the kids can go the extra 2 blocks up to the big playground. O'Shea: That's where I'm leading this, and I mentioned this last time. Do we need to re-think what these parks should look like before we spend a half million dollars worth of equipment? Maybe just like you said with Bandimere, it will take on a whole different look than we're thinking right now that, I'm just not certain we know what type of equipment each of these neighborhoods really wants. I guess that's where I'm kind of hung up on spending that money. I want to make sure and would it be better to have some grand structure in one park where you put all the money, or two parks and put $250,000 in each? Or am I off? Franks: Yeah, when we're done with questions here we'll turn it back for comments. I mean you're out of line, it almost sounds like there are a few questions in there yet. O'Shea: Yeah. Well if it comes back that's fine. That's all. That's my concern is if we really know what those neighborhoods want. Franks: Okay. So are you wondering is there a way to find that out or are you wondering if the park department's ever done a survey or neighborhood surveys for their park or usage. Have we ever done anything like that? Hoffman: The past half a dozen playgrounds or so that have been installed have been more or less selected by the neighborhoods and so they get a neighborhood. It's either a homeowners association or they assign a group of residents and they come in and talk to the park commission about their selection based off of 2 or 3 or 4 proposals that are solicited by the staff. Park equipment is kind of the basic element. Neighborhood parks is the basic element of the park system. Our system is based on the premise that there will be a park within a half mile of Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 everybody's front door that people can walk to. Lake Ann, Lake Susan, you have those dollar amounts, $115,000, $90,000. They're intended to be larger to accommodate more children because when you have 6 or 7 ball games going on at one time, you're going to have a lot of activity all at once so. I think there' s really that combination, but there are some sites, and I think Bandimere's one where you could easily take a look, even though it's a smaller figure, 25, take a look at eliminating it. We've talked about Herman Field the same way. O'Shea: Okay, thanks. Franks: Tom. Kelly: I had two questions. One was about the 101 trail. Would that actually go all the way up 62 or would that, I'm just wondering if the idea on the 101 trail is that it actually will link up with the trail that goes on 62. Or if there's still going to be space that it just there will be no trail. Hoffman: I think it will go up to Townline, and then that's the Chanhassen border. Kelly: Okay. But then it would still be just road from Townline to 62? Franks: You just go across. Hoffman: Yeah, you're right there. Kelly: Okay. And the other question I had was about the. Franks: Are you referring to, just a second Tom. Are you referring to, for 2003 the $80,0009. Kelly: Yep. And also the City Center Park. Is that just for construction of a warming house? Okay. That was it. Franks: Glenn. Stolar: I have a few questions. One, so if we approve this, the 155 that we talked about last time, We have to bring that back and decide what of these other ones. Hoffman: Correct. Stolar: Okay. And then second question, I think this was kind of asked before but I didn't quite understand the answer. We would, are there any other items that would also be valid for this type of approach that aren't listed here other than the playgrounds? That we would want to do, and the other, that aren't listed anywhere. Some sort of replacement, or do we want to just focus it. What's staffs thoughts on that. Hoffman: Listed on the CIP that you have, 2003 through 2007, I don't believe there are any other that are what you would call replacements. Stolar: Okay, that's what I didn't see any either. Franks: Generally speaking in our inventory of park amenities and recreation amenities, are there any other types of amenity that park and rec department supports that would be eligible for this type of a replacement program? Other than playground structures. 4 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Hoffman: Trails. Franks: But trails are handled are under the, they're going to be handled under the pavement management. Hoffman: Still need a financing source yeah, but that's where it will be funded from. That's where they' 11 be commissioned from. Funding source is still undetermined. Stolar: But like tennis courts is an example. If a tennis court is in disrepair and needs to be. Hoffman: Or park shelters. Shelter buildings. Any type of structure. Stolar: Do you foresee in the next few years any of those? Hoffman: The tennis court at City Center Park has been talked about. But we're trying to allow the school to see the need to participate in that. Stolar: Very well worded. Those are my questions. And then, oh sorry. One more. If we go through with this each year to kind of saying to his point, do we, will we come back each year and say year two, yeah. This makes sense or, I think it's difficult for us to say for sure in the 3 years, based on our discussion, that these are exactly the three things. So it's really just year one we're talking about. Hoffman: Year one and then after that, we would align those in 2005, 2006 and then talk about them annually. Stolar: Okay. Thanks. Franks: So although that we've got this ranking now, we might take on let's say it goes through and we take on a couple of projects. Then in the next, although we'd have them planned out, when next year came along we might just re-rank everything in a sense and those that are completed are off the list and that may cause some change in the rankings. Is that the idea? Or were you thinking actually having a static list that we just. Hoffman: Not a static list. It changes annually. The recommendations have always changed itl The 5 year CIP is a guide line and then each year, based on current, kind of the current environment and what's going on in the city and there's always current issues. New guidelines. Issues which arise with maintenance... Neighborhoods that come in and make a strong plea and the commission wants to respond to that. Franks: Now I know you're not Bruce Todd but the whole process of bonding, my question is then, those bonds would then just be for that year of the project that we're thinking of instead of, such as referendum or something where we're collecting money for projects that we're implementing over a period of more than a year. Hoffman: Yeah, they would sell a package of bonds for all of the capital improvements that the city is undertaking. Franks: For an amount. Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Hoffman: Yep. Franks: Now if that changes or we come up with new information, do you have the flexibility to change what you do with that money? Hoffman: Oh sure, the City Council can change that, sure. Franks: Okay. So we could then go back and do recommendations saying you know, I don't think we should do Lake Ann. We should do Lake Susan. Hoffman: Correct. Franks: Okay. Spizale: I've got a couple questions. Franks: Yeah sure. Spizale: The old equipment, is that worth anything? Hoffman: No. Spizale: Or is it just destroyed? Nobody would want it, right? Hoffman: People would want it. We are not in a position to sell it or give it away because of the safety concerns with the equipment. Spizale: So it'd be destroyed. And the second question is, in these parks, is the equipment there all one or is it a mixture of good stuff and bad stuff? Hoffman: Some of them are all wood. There has been some upgrades made to them. If you think of Rice Marsh, North Lotus has any plastic in it? No. Franks: Chan Hills. Lake Susan. Hoffman: Chan Hills. Carver Beach. Lake Susan, we put plastic in there? Franks: Yep, there's some. Hoffman: There's some, so we went back when CPSC came out, Consumer Product Safety Commission, and we upgraded some of those facilities. Now that portion of equipment we could actually pool all of those little sections and probably recreate one playground in some location. Spizale: So that could be moved, okay. Hoffman: It's recycled aluminum powder posts with recycled plastic inside... There's not much to save. Franks: Some of it. Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Robinson: Can I ask another question also? I was wondering with the trails. Last time that was a recommendation that was highly ranked. The connecting trails. And in the 3 year plan those aren't in there at all. Does staff feel now that the playgrounds are of more concern or could we add those? It kind of gets back to the financing question too, where are we going to get the money to do those? Hoffman: As a commission you could add or amend any of those recommendations. I think the 275 is, or 270 is a reasonable figure to be requesting from the City Council in one year, so if you want to add in one trail next year, one trail in year three, that's something we can talk about if you choose. The playground, there is concern because of the chance that there would be some sort of an injury. Serious injury and the trails aren't there but they're not the same type of risk. Robinson: Well I think you answered my next question too in that those totals for the 3 years can be changed slightly? The first year it sounds like that' s kind of a maximum? Hoffman: Again, I think the lower the number the higher the chance that you're going to be successful in having the City Council going ahead and approve that capital plan. Robinson: Okay. Franks: Thanks Susan. Paula, I know you're just kind of getting up to speed here but wondering if you have any questions for staff regarding item, what item are we on? Hoffman: 4. Franks: Item 4. Atkins: I'd have to look it over a little bit. Franks: back to Glenn. Alright. What we'll do is we'll give you that time and we'll, the rest of us will pull it the commission and start with comments and we'll just switch to the other end this time Comments. Stolar: Just a couple. One, I think we're all kind of saying around the same thing so when this motion actually comes up, I think we ought to look at somewhere stating that you know, here's what we believe for year one. Subsequent years will be reviewed each year or annually. I'd like to have that in here so they know we're not committed to this is the 3 year plan but that this is year one. And then the other years we'll talk to. And second thing is, when will we talk about how to spend the money that we had put towards this last year for the park, or the last meeting, for the park dedication fund. Hoffman: Which money? Stolar: Well we said the 155 we had recommended be for playground replacement. Now we're saying use an alternative source. The 155, are we going to review that or are we just going to assume? Hoffman: Tonight you would want to, that recommendation is still out there yes. So you would want to amend that in this recommendation. Based on the conversation we had with the City Council, the 155, the number, did I send the e-mail out? The current concerning the PuRe trail. In our last meeting I talked about we have outstanding bills coming due. The Pulte trail bill came 7 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 in at $125,000. So our current cash is 540. In park dedication we have approximately 550 to 600,000 in outstanding bills on this park in front of City Hall. We have a bill from Pulte for 125,000 that's coming in. So depending on our timing of our revenues, we're going to be close on financing our improvements in 2003. So I don't think it is wise at this time, based on the economy to go ahead and propose any improvements, or additional or new improvements out of Fund 410 for 2004. So I would delete that as a recommendation and be proposing that these all come out of general capital financing. We have, and just to keep you up to, kind of on the horizon, the Vasserman Ridge, the Lundgren development. They're also building a section of the comprehensive trail that they will be billing us for. And across the street on the south side of Highway 5 there's the Holiday Inn Express and the restaurant which will go in. It's on a lot that is perched up over the Chanhassen Nature Preserve. They have to build a section of trail per their development contract. It' s a section of the city' s comprehensive trail. We have to pay them back for that construction. It's the City Manager's hope that that will be paid for out of that tax increment financing district to help the park dedication fund. So that's his position. There's no guarantee that will happen, but there's big projects yet to be financed. In the past few years the revenues were up around 400,000 so you could make up some pretty good time and pay some bills, but right now they're probably more down around the 200-250,000 dollar range. The one benefit again to the financing and the revenue generation is that we collect every cent up front now. With the change in the ordinance, there's no longer a one third collected at time of plat. Two-thirds collected at time of building permit. We collect 100 percent at time of plat and that's helping with our revenue generation up front. Franks: Okay. Anything else Glenn? Paula, just jump in whenever you want okay. Even if we move on, alright? Tom, any comments? Kelly: I guess the only thing on the CIP that I feel very strongly about is the Bandimere Phase II playground, only because that, I think besides Lake Ann and Lake Susan, that could be the most visited park in the city. With all the soccer tournaments and everything. I just think that having additional playground equipment there would get a lot of use. I guess that' s something that I feel strongly would be nice to build up that play area at Bandimere. Franks: I would agree that we should really at least for this first year go ahead and make a motion much like is recommended. Certainly asking for alternative funding sources. Now the money that we've already allocated to these by previous motion, although we'd be changing that, I am not wanting that money necessarily just to sit out there. So I'd like to see some kind of a motion that we recommend that our left over funding in 410 be held in a capital reserve or some kind of a recommendation that although we're shifting to a new way of financing replacement, that we don't just want to use up what we've got and then finance what's left over by some alternative funding source. That really the entire amount of the replacement should be funded by some alternative funding source like bonding for it and that the money's that left over be held in a capital reserve and 410 for future development projects. So I'd like to see that considered, but really other than that, I don't have anything to add. Amy. O'Shea: Just the comments I made before. That we definitely know what those neighborhoods want in equipment. And also, and I think it's been mentioned, I feel strongly that Highway 41 trail connector needs to be done in the near future too. I'd hate to lose sight of that. But that's it. Franks: Okay. Hoffman: And that's a good position to have on, in talking to the neighborhoods. There was a past example where Herman Field neighborhood, the commission proposed a Phase II at Herman Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Field and they came in and they said, no. We don't need or want any additional playground equipment. What we have there is under utilized already and we have the vandalism issues so there was never a Phase II, even though there's space for it available. It was not installed based on the comments from the neighborhood. Franks: Susan. Robinson: My only comment is I would be in agreement with the year one program. Equipment replacement of Lake Ann, Meadow Green and Lake Susan because we know those are high use areas and they need to be replaced so. Franks: Okay. Spizale: No comments. Franks: Paula, we'll just swing it on back. Atkins: No, I'm fine with all the things that I've heard so far. Not ready to make any comments. Franks: Okay, good questions. Good comments. We have a recommendation from staff. I'd be certainly willing to entertain a motion. Anybody who wants to make a stab at it. Stolar: I'll move we support staff's recommendation in the memo dated September 23rd to have a 3 year program for playground replacement as listed by the staff with one added statement that the schedule will be reviewed annually. Franks: Okay. Is there a second? O'Shea: I second it. Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion regarding the motion? On the motion. Seeing that there is no discussion, then we'll move on to vote on the motion. Stolar moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends approval of the staff recommendation in the memo dated September 23, 2003 to have a 3 year program for playground replacement as listed with one added statement that the schedule will be reviewed annually. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. Hoffman: Second motion on your past motion? Franks: Yep, we wanted to take care of that one fa:st. So now we have this outstanding issue that we have a previous motion that's really no longer fitting. Is there anyone who wants to make a motion rescinding our past action? What's that? Hoffman: It's in the minutes I believe one of the first. Franks: Is the person who made the motion here? Hoffman: Should be. Glenn Stolar and Robinson. Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Franks: Now if I'm understanding correctly, you are the one that can bring this up for reconsideration. Stolar: Anybody who voted in favor of it, so I'll move that we reconsider the recommendations from the Park and Rec Commission meeting of August 26th regarding the capital improvement recommendations for 2004. Franks: Alright. And is there a second to that? Robinson: I second. Franks: All those in favor? Well is there any discussion, it's been moved and seconded. Seeing none then we' 11 bring it to the question. Stolar moved, Robinson seconded to reconsider the recommendations from the Park and Recreation Commission meeting of August 26th regarding the capital improvement recommendations for 2004. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. Franks: Okay, great. That's now open for reconsideration. Stolar: The only reason I wanted to do that was if Tom wanted to talk about do we want to make something for 2004. Franks: Absolutely. Let's do it that way. What we'll do then is open it up to comments from the commission on this item of the capital project. Capital spending for year 2004. Any comments from commissioners? Tom. Kelly: I am a strong proponent of getting additional equipment at Bandimere because that's a highly utilized park and I would like to see, it'd be great to see Phase II in there in 2004. Franks: Okay. Is there any other comments? O'Shea: Well I'd like to have the Highway, or the trail connector on Highway 41 considered as well. Franks: Okay. Anything else? What I think would be appropriate then would be to re-direct staff to come back with what we'd consider for construction time table and the costs again on the trail for on 41, and also what we're looking at for Phase II playground equipment for a Bandimere Park. I don't know if we have that, those numbers available to us. Todd, is that information available to us? Hoffman: It's all in here. Yeah, we have all the estimates. $40,000 at Bandimere and $90,000 on the 101, on Highway 41. Franks: We don't know what we're looking at for Phase II in Bandimere though do we? Hoffman: It's a completely separate structure. The concrete border which is there is full so this is a small, I'm not going to say small but it's a secondary structure for young kids. 10 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Franks: Are you interested in seeing what staff would be proposing before you would move forward on making a recommendation as that expenditure for capital project in 2004? Kelly: I would be interested in seeing, but I do agree the younger, that structure is for older kids. It would be great to have something in there for 2-3 year olds. So it'd be great to see what the plan was. What was the proposal, where was, in terms of placement. I know there's a lot of open space. Was there a place in mind? Hoffman: Just down the hill and to the, probably towards the lake. There's a Williams Pipeline in there. We also have a future placement for a building in there, so you would grade off a second plateau. Something to remember is that these two items would be new improvements so they would be falling under park dedication which is probably not available in 2004. Franks: This winter we'll be going over the 5 year CIP again. When are you thinking that's going to come up on our meeting schedule? Hoffman: We may start it as, well January-February. January-February-March. Get through this year. Franks: Is there any interest in just kind of holding off until we really look at the 5 year CIP or are commissioners interested in really taking a look at something immediate? Hoffman: It's really the cash position that we're concerned about. If you think about 2004, it's not that there are no projects underway. The Puke trail has to be paid. The Vasserman Ridge, Lundgren trail is something. It's an improvement that's taking place and we have to pay that bill and the Holiday Inn as well, so there's trails being constructed. Until our cash position is solidified, I think these other improvements need to be held off. We've got big, big projects currently underway and our cash position is bleak. Stolar: Well isn't that the City Council's issue? Hoffman: Yes. You can make a recommendation but. Franks: That' s what I understood the direction from our joint meeting to be. Hoffman: Yes. Franks: That we should make the recommendation and let them figure out whether they're going to fund it, and if so, how. So that's why I'm asking. Do we want to, as our body, make a recommendation immediately tonight saying we understand that there's around this, the potential for about $150,000 or so and how do we want to spend that. Or do we want to wait until later on in this year when we take a look at our 5 year CIP and maybe what the current status of the 410 fund is and do some planning there. Construction season's, we're not going to get to it obviously now so this would be for 2004. Would we have time to, I mean let's say it happens. Would there be time Todd to get these out and get into them in 2004? Playground equipment? Yeah. Hoffman: The timing issue is getting it on the CIP docket for the City Council to consider. Your October meeting would be about as late as we could go. For the current budget cycle. Stolar: And I guess that's where I'm coming from is we want to get it front of the City Council this year as they do their 2004. Let them figure out the fact that we spent it all on the park here. 11 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Now what do you want to do? And if they choose to push it off, or include it and hope that we'll have the funding, because just including it doesn't mean we're doing it, right? If the money's not there we aren't doing it. Hoffman: Correct. The commission can make a recommendation tonight to put those items in there, and have staff upgrade, or double check the numbers to make sure they're accurate and we'd send it right off to the City Council. Franks: I think there's a motion in there for you Tom. O'Shea: And I'd second it. I'm waiting. Franks: That's what I like. People who are ready to work. Kelly. I'll make a motion then. I'll make a motion to, for the City Council to consider funding the Phase II Bandimere playground equipment as a part of the 2004 construction cycle. Is that sufficient? Hoffman: There's something else in there. O'Shea: And? Kelly: And also to fund the Highway 41 trail connector. Again as part of the 2004 construction cycle. Franks: Alright, it's been moved. Is there a second? O'Shea: I'll second. Franks: Okay, it's been moved and seconded. We'll open this motion up for discussion. Is there any discussion? Are you wanting to attach hard numbers to these or we're going to wait for staff to update those numbers and you're okay with that? Hoffman: Yeah, currently it would be the 270 plus the 130. 400,000. Stolar: Well, aren't those two separate things. We're talking about, we already did the motion on the 270. This is just 130 for the CIP. From Fund 410. Hoffman: Well the recommendation of the funding source is key here because I don't think we want to push this onto Fund 410 so you would be making this recommendation to pay for it from some alternative funding source. Cash isn't available in. Stolar: That's not our problem. Franks: We are making a recommendation as I understand it, and let's check the notes just to make sure, but for the 270 for the first year of the proposed 3 year playground replacement program, the 270 we're looking at doing it from capital equipment bonds. And so we've set that aside and now we're looking at our CIP from park dedication fund and we're anticipating that potentially there will be some revenue that will come in, at least some point during this year so when 2004 rolls around, the potential exists that we could fund these projects. Or if not, the City 12 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Council is aware that we believe these are important development projects and will then at some point find some alternative funding source to construct them. Hoffman: You want to make that clear in the motion. I believe you will find that Fund 410 will not be able to finance these so instead of just having it stop there. The motion should reflect that if that is the case, then we would want to seek out alternative funding source, and that would be capital financing. Franks: Is there a commission who would propose? Stolar: Well is that what we're saying? Franks: Well I was going to ask to propose a friendly amendment and see if the author is willing to accept a friendly amendment to his motion. Hoffman: He didn't identify a funding source. Franks: Right, and that's what I'm suggesting is that we can amend the motion by identifying a funding source. Stolar: I guess because if we don't do that we're going to come back to the same place where they may say okay let's do Bandimere and let's not replace the playgrounds. That's my concern. Robinson: That's what I'm concerned about. Franks: It's my understanding our first motion on the playground replacement is clear. Robinson: But now we need to make a motion to prioritize, we for sure want that done coming out of the capital equipment fund. And the other two projects, we would need to specify if the money is not available, out of CIP, Fund 410, that we would like an additional funding source. However the playgrounds are priority. Is that right? Stolar: Sounds like a good friendly amendment. Hoffman: I can write that. Kelly: Accepted. Franks: Alright. Is there any further discussion? I'm going to play loose, but since you're accepting the friendly amendment as the author, then we're not going to, no necessity to vote on the amendment. That' s my understanding. Is that correct Glenn? Stolar: That's fine. Franks: Is that going to work for you? Stolar: Yeah, that works. Franks; Alright, then is there any further discussion? Seeing none then we'll move forward with the motion as amended. 13 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Kelly moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council consider funding Phase I1 playground equipment for Bandimere Park and the trail connector on Highway 41 in 2004. If money is not available out Fund 410, that an additional funding source be considered. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. Franks: Do you want me to look that over after you write it up? Hoffman: No. Franks: Okay. Alright. I'm hoping that we are Finished with old business. Seeing that it looks as if we are, we'll move on to program reports. RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS: DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RUN. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks, and the rest of the commission. First of all, I thank all the commissioners and staff that was present during the Dave Huffman Memorial Race. It was another successful event and I appreciate all your help first of all on that end. If you participated, I hope you enjoyed it. We did have our meeting tonight. Kind of a wrap up meeting. We did have roughly about 340 paid registered runners for the race. And another 64 runners for kids portion of the fun run for the kids. We did talk about kind of looking ahead into the future. I know September 11th is the date of the race next year so we're going to try and kind of tie in some type of patriotic theme to our shirt design or some type of function or event during the actual race or the ceremony during that date. Chief John Wolff at the Fire Department' s kind of talked about participating in some fashion next year and we'll talk to John and the Fire Department at some point in time here over the winter and sort of solidify our plans for the future. We talked about, it's very important for us to maintain a funding source and look for additional sponsors for that. We did lose a major sponsor in the shirts this year. We paid for those out of a kind of fund balance that we've had, so it's important for us to continue looking for additional dollars sponsorship wise for that. And also I guess it's maybe my desire, maybe more so than the other committee members to look for alternative routes. Maybe start and finish at the same area, or just try to get off the street more and get onto our trail system. We'll be busy with that probably the next couple-three weeks maybe to try to identify some options for us looking ahead into next year. Just to see if it's a possibility. But it certainly is my desire to do that. Kelly: Is this going underneath Highway 5, are those trails suitable enough for a runner or do they get too dangerous with water and everything? Ruegemer: Not with the proper signage Tom. Kelly: Something needs to showcase those that... Ruegemer: Yeah, we'll take a look at that and you know it's fun to have Ragnar involved again. He's pretty good with crowds and the kids certainly like to receive their medals and that from Ragnar and thanks to Tom for coordinating that portion of the event. Other than that, just kind of looking ahead to the future so. Franks: Could we break these down item by item? 14 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Ruegemer: Sure. Franks: Alright. Any questions for Jerry regarding the run? Just a comment Jerry that I have is, that next year I'm just wondering how the whole library plaza could fit into the run as a kind of race central if you're considering a new route. What a great way in the fall to showcase that and maybe farmers market and we've got the fire station right up here. I don't know, you know, could be the availability to do something a little bit bigger. Or up on the field and down below, whatever. Ruegemer: Yeah, we discussed that briefly at the meeting tonight as a possible start finish area for next year so. Kelly: You have the Southwest Metro lot's only half a block away from the library so that would be overflow parking... Start and finish is just figuring out where they're going to go. I guess I'm just curious about the, is it too difficult to block off Powers and main street? Does it just get too, is that your concern for the route? Ruegemer: Well going through, kind of the major downtown business district certainly, we're going to inconvenience certain businesses. Granted on Saturday morning at 9:00 it's not, I mean the world isn't totally rustling yet and out for the day yet but certainly we did take some comments from local businesses that blocking off certain portions of the downtown made it difficult for customers to get to their destination so. Looking ahead, or I guess looking back as to why we kind of chose that. We had Chamber involvement kind of back it the first event and we really wanted to kind of bring people through downtown. Kind of showcase our businesses. That certainly has merit, but I guess it's my desire to maybe look for alternative spots. Hoffman: Someplace where a crowd can gather and watch both them start and finish is always a plus. Franks: While checking out a book. Hoffman: Or buy a squash at the farmers market. Kelly: This is a fast course. That's why I like it. I think it's a really fast course. Ruegemer: Well certainly we did take comments from runners that they love the course. You know I heard a lot of positive comments about it. I think the runners like the course. I don't know, maybe I'm just looking at things I shouldn't but I certainly would like to explore other areas. Hoffman: We're going to have a brand new trail right along Lake Ann so we could still do the Lake Ann. Kelly: Well go all the way around. Hoffman: Just the trail from Lake Ann to Greenwood Shores is being rebuilt this fall. So if you started downtown. You head people out the frontage road, by the time they get there they've got plenty of room to spread out and bring them back down Kerber. Franks: Right down Kerber, right to the library. You're going to talk about that. Good deal. Any other comments or questions? Good job Tom. 15 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Kelly: I'd like to thank everyone for all the commissioners that came out to help. I thought it was a great day. Franks: We spent the whole morning there, me and the kids, and I had to drag them home. I mean they would have stayed longer. They loved it. And getting a medal from Ragnar, I mean it was just great. Although the one thing I didn't like was this 13 and under men's winner at 21:28. And then what's even worst is the 60 plus men's winner, 19:20. I mean that is some serious running. Mike Howe and I were standing there as they were reading off the times for the winners and we're just shaking our heads. Alright. 2003 LAKE ANN PARK CONCESSION OPERATIONS. Ruegemer: To update you again Chair Franks. Wrapping up another season out at the Lake Ann concession building. We did, as part of our budget in 2003, we did raise fees across the board. Whether it was adult softball to boat rentals and I did some additional figuring on that and some updated. We did make about $1,100 additional monies this year in boat rentals and changed the process around a little bit versus going from, based on the quarter hour, we based it on an hour rental. And in talking to staff out there, we did get a lot of negative comments on that so it made it easier for staff to not have to figure out the quarter hours and that sort of thing and it kept us a little bit easier that people kept them longer as well. We made some additional revenue so. I'm not going to really go through this, since there was a lot of information was included within the packet. It was another decent year. Certainly weather. I wish we would have made some additional revenue but such is life. But we still were to the positive and that so it was good. Franks: Great. Again, any comments or questions? Robinson: I just want to know, who did the report? It was very colorful and lively. Ruegemer: That was Erin, our manager of about 6 or 7 years out there so. I think this is going to be the last year that we have Erin and that's a major bummer for me. Robinson: I really enjoyed it reading it because it was lollies are huge. Franks: That's what I was going to comment about the lollies. Huge seller. Robinson: So enthusiastic. Hoffman: The best one is the few problem with the summer with the guys coming in late. The guys. Ruegemer: She's a wonderful young lady. Does a great job for us. Spizale: I've got one comment on the kayak. You seem to be against it but I've seen some kayaks that are quite open and easy to get out of. I think, I tried it for the first time a couple weeks ago and it was really fun. It was more of an open kayak so if you did tip, you could get out of it, and it was more stable than a canoe. Just a thought. Franks: Kayaking is huge popular. Spizale: I think it'd be a good teen thing. 16 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Ruegemer: Certainly something to look for. Spizale: Something different. Robinson: And they have double ones too. Double kayaks where two people can go. Stolar: There are several recommendations of things to do. I don't know if we're going to take action on any of them. Some of them involve capital purchases which we don't really need to talk about yet. Frisbee golf course. Question on that. Has that been something that you've looked at at Lake Ann before? Ruegemer: Brief discussions. I know the most current discussions were on that probably a number of years ago. Kind of when the first wave of that, probably at least 10 years ago I'm guessing when that, and I think at that time we had kind of looked at real loosely at some type of course. Whether that be going through the park view picnic area and some other areas, and really at that time really nothing was identified as far as a course. But it looks like it certainly is regaining popularity. Hoffman: The initial assessment is just not enough real estate. The largest section would be there just above the pavilion and you would consume the entire area currently used as a gathering location for group picnics and other events and so if you're going to put this, another activity in there, you're going to play through it. Stolar: That's what I was wondering, because it's mostly ballfields out there so you really don't have a real lot of room for a course. Hoffman: It's just like the dog park. If we would have had a good spot for it, it'd be here today. Eden Prairie, Edina. Edina didn't believe it would be successful and they've had a great time with it. Stolar: Eden Prairie's also I know the first year they did it, it was really successful, and they're fairly low cost and low maintenance. But I was trying to think outside of that park by the pavilion, there's really no place at Lake Ann. Okay, thanks. Franks: Anything else anyone? I think it's a good idea to have the manager sign off on the time cards. Just kind of say you know, something you might want to consider. I have felt the same way about the teens and tweens. We went down there a bunch of times and it's, you know it's the flavor of the beach has really changed since the floating raft is gone. Ruegemer: For the better. Franks: Ah, I don't know. Less smoking down there now, that's for sure. Which brings up a whole other issue. I'm just wondering at $3.25, boy you know what. Let's squeak another 25 cents out of that, the meal deal and I think we can hit that up to $3.50. I think people aren't going to notice much difference between $3.50 and $3.25. Ruegemer: Staff certainly is. They go down there every day. But we can squeeze. Franks: You know what, staff could buy a punch card maybe and get a deal. 17 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Ruegemer: Meal deal punch cards. That's a good idea. 2003 HALLOWEEN PARTY. Hoen: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. As most of you probably already know, the annual Halloween party will be held on Saturday, October 25t~ from 5:30 to 8:00 p.m. at the Chan Rec Center. Activities for this year will include games, hay rides and in previous years we've always had two hay rides and it appeared that last year the wagons were sitting idle quite a bit, so at this time we're at one wagon and have a second one on hold. And kind of take a look at the numbers as we get closer to the event and if we feel we need a second one, order it at that time. Some other activities will include refreshments, trick or treating. Scary and friendly areas. Face painting and entertainment by Kit and Kaboodle. They'll perform two half hour shows. One at 6:00 and one at 7:00 p.m. As you know volunteers is very crucial for an event like this so I' 11 continue to work with past volunteer organizations which will include the Chaska High School KEY Club. I've already contacted them. They've indicated they'll probably have about 30 plus volunteers for this so they've always been fantastic and plenty of volunteers for us. The Chanhassen Boy Scouts. And I'll be contacting each of you in the next couple weeks so if you want to check your calendars and see if you're available. Franks: And you even have costumes for those that want to use that as an excuse. I want to point that out. Hoen: Fliers are finished and we'll distribute to local schools the first week in October. And also available at City Hall and the Chan Rec Center, and then we also have a flier included in your packet for you to take a look at it. That' s it. Franks: Any comments or questions for Corey regarding the Halloween party? Anything? Kelly: It was a lot of fun last year. Robinson: $4.00 is really cheap. Franks: I'll have to make my yearly comment about. Ruegemer: No hard candy. Franks: Okay, just want to be clear. Ruegemer: You can get the big 5 pound bags cheap. Franks: We've talked about this Superintendent Ruegemer. Ruegemer: Duly noted. Franks: And Kit and Kaboodle aren't going to complain when you ask them to you know kind of move to the back of the gym so we can have the seating all in the front? Hoen: I hope not. We'll make sure they move back. Ruegemer: We can tape off an area. Past the middle of the gym floor. 18 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Franks: I know the other time, people were always going around behind because they wanted to be so close up but, and that was kind of a problem. And then the games are going to be in the other gym? Ruegemer: The school gym. Franks: The school gym, great. Great set up. Looking forward to it. Thank you. RECREATION CENTER REPORT. Marek: Commissioners. Well big news out at the recreational center is we were closed for about 2 ¥2 weeks and I'd like to inquire for people here today if you heard any comments regarding...as part of our budget plan. So I'm just wondering if you heard any comments, feedback on that. It was well advertised at the rec center for our regular customers so they knew that it was coming, and when we re-opened the doors we really didn't hear anything negative so. It's a good time for us to shut down. The rec center isn't really a nice to be when the floors are being finished. Quite uncomfortable inside so, we'll probably consider that again going on into the future. Doing that same kind of thing. Last Friday night we had the Barnyard Boogie. Once again we had outstanding animal talent. A litter of kittens, of which 2 escaped. Staff however did retrieve them. But taking the prize was the baby lama that we had. All the animals were in the front yard, right outside the front doors and we just had a whole crowd there. About 300 people did arrive so it was a very good party. At the rec center we've added two new employees. Not new exactly but Lisa Anderson and Kristy Mock. Both employed at City Hall over the summer, so they came to us with some experience. At least with Todd and Jerry. But now they're learning the ways of the rec center. And they're doing great. We certainly appreciate having that base to work from. Also, I think I announced at the last commission meeting that I was at, which would have been in June, that I would be working reduced hours, and in fact that did come to pass and I will continue that through December as well. Corey, Todd and Jerry have been wonderful in supporting those areas that need help. In my absence. I do get in about 15 hours a week and phone calls and e- mails abound so I'm still fairly well connected. And taking care of all those essential management duties. But I certainly appreciate the time at home as well. Other than that, all the fall programs have started at the rec center so we're busy with that. Any comments, questions? Franks: I'll open it up. Spizale: Maybe one. The fall programs, which one's the most popular? Marek: Revenues or number of participants? Spizale: Probably number of people. Marek: You know it's got to be our dance program at about 250 kids. Spizale: Wow. What would be second? Marek: Probably Tae Kwan Do. That runs year round. Every 6 weeks there's a new session starting. We usually end up with about 60 to 70 people registered for that. Hoffman: The fitness room itself would be one of the most popular versus a non-program activity. It also generates the highest revenues. Or dance. Punch card? 19 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Marek: No. The un-programmed fitness activity still generate more. That's $80,000 to $90,000. Hoffman: Over dance like 50. Marek: Dance at about 56. Hoffman: Okay, great. Franks: Any other questions, comments for Susan? You know Todd, sometime maybe we can have an off site commission meeting over at the Rec Center at a time when it's maybe some staff are there and meet some of the actual staff and just have our meeting over there. Hoffman: Would you like to host that? Marek: Absolutely. Franks: We're a pretty easy bunch. Marek: I think we could handle it. Hoffman: Maybe December. Franks: That'd be a great time to do it. Great. No negative comments that I heard about the closing down. In fact the people I talked to, they thought it made sense. Marek: We had a few of those comments as well. That people really didn't want to be there anyway. It would have been uncomfortable. Franks: They hated showing up and then it's like, terrible so I think they just appreciated that. Marek: Right now they're just anxious for the next punch card sale to happen, which will be in December so that's kind of the big thing we're getting hit up on now. Franks: Great. Thank you. PARK & TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT. Franks: Dale, did Jerry talk to you? Obviously not. Just kidding. Let's get to that park and trail maintenance report. Gregory: Thank you Chair Franks. It ceases to amaze me again that we've gone through another summer. It seems like I was just here and that and we've already gone through the summer and we're on our way into fall already. Seasonal kids have all gone except for the retired seasonals that we have. We have three retired people that work for us so they are really taking care of the bulk of all of our maintenance and grass cutting and that right now, and really are a life saver so we can do our other work. We basically shut down all the beaches. That stuff is all finished. We have already gone into our third application of fertilizer for all the athletic fields. We still do a very vigorous fertilizing program and then to keep up with all the activity that's going on and it's really working real well. This summer and that Jerry had a state regional softball tournament. A lot of work went in by the guys and that on all of our fields out there and that and it really showed. They really brought them up and really in good shape and we had a lot of very favorable 20 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 comments from neighboring teams. Out of town teams and that type of thing. They really enjoyed the work that we did out there, and that was, I was out there some of the time helping them and that and it was really, it was fun to listen to it. They were really appreciative of all the work being done. Going into fall and that, we've already stripped all our ball fields. We've had 15 soccer fields running this year and two football fields. We were able to pull out 3 soccer fields that needed to have a fall rest so we could re-seed them. Seed them and that and got them all ready for the next year so they're coming along real well, so they'll be in good shape for next summer. And that's a real big park with the soccer fields and that we really need to think about that every year is to try to pull out some of these and give them a fall rest. So that's working out real well. One of our big problems we took care of at the Lake Ann concession building. We have had a lot of problem in the past couple of years, electrically in that building. We kept losing electrical outlets upstairs. We lost security lights. We lost the lights around the building and we spent about a week and a half with an electrician out there and one of our guys worked with him and we basically had to re-wire pretty much that building. And the main problem was because when they built that, they ran the wire through the conduit, which is fine. Laid it all in the upstairs area. That all got covered with concrete so now the line was eating away all the conduit and basically ate the wires and everything. I mean it just, we literally didn't have any outlets or anything left up there, so it's been completely redone. And they did a very nice job. The electrician and they really did a good job of hiding the conduit and all that sort of stuff so it looks real nice and what we did is we grouped some areas of electrical outlets now in different areas and we've got them all on separate breakers so it's a good job. Hopefully we should be done with that now for a while. Franks: Yeah, the crock pots won't be busting the fuses. Gregory: Won't have the trouble there as long as they don't plug 3 of them into one outlet. The one outlet like they were doing tonight. We got them straighten out out there. Their crock pots were going when I left. We also did have one playground addition put in at Stone Creek and in early September the guys worked on that and were able to get that put in for up there. Just a couple other things that have come up since the report, that we are involved in. Is the park's been involved in a pavement management program, the same as what the street does for all the streets, and I've got one individual who's pretty much doing that for us. But what it really entails is actually literally going out over every trail we've got with a wheel, breaking the trails down into segments of 312 feet in length, and then he has to document those areas and all the cracks. All the holes. All the anything and how bad they're worn, and we're going to be going through every trail we've got and documenting all this, and then they will download this into a computer which will give us reports on what areas are bad and what we need to do, so it's quite a program and that. I mean it's really going to be nice when it's all done but to get it set up is really a lot of work. So, but I've got one individual. He's working on that now and then we're going on that. Another program that we are getting involved in is a tree inventory program. They received a grant through Jill and basically what it is, is we sent two people to classes for 3 days on this and they will be going out into all our parks, the open areas and they're going to be inventorying every tree in our system. The open areas. Not like the Lake Ann woods. We're not doing that but all the open areas where we've got trees planted. They are going to evaluate that tree and see what condition it's in. Trimming wise, when it's going to have to be done and all that sort of stuff. That will all get documented. They're also going to have GPS units that will actually put where every one of these trees are into the, and this whole system will be put, downloaded into the computer and again we're going to have reports of when we need to do maintenance on these trees and everything else so it's another program that's going to be, it's going to take quite a while but when it's all done, we should have some pretty extensive reports out of it. So that's two new ones. Todd did mention the trail at Lake Ann. The maintenance of our park department, 21 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 we're doing all the work. We tore out the old trail. Right now we're starting to put in the fabric and the new base for the trail so we're going to have the whole trail ready, and I've got a company that will come in and do our blacktopping for us, so it will save money on that end to be able to do the whole trail, we're doing all the work down there. We've also got the Curry Farms trail. That part. We've got that ready to go. That's going to be blacktopped this fall. We tore out the east side that's really wet. We will be overlaying that whole trail down there so that will really be in good shape. We will be doing some re-grading on the east side of that to get a nice slope so we won't have a water problem any more over there. Try to get all the water to drain to that east side. And then we'll also be working on the ballfield. That's on the list too so just, we will be doing that one too yet. I think, and everybody's been watching the City Center Park, how that' s coming out here and so are we as far as the maintenance end of it. It' s going to add quite a bit to our maintenance and our downtown people and everything just to keep up with that park. It's will just be one more thing to add to our list of things to do. That's all I have. Franks: Great. Nice report. Any comments? Questions for Dale. No. I have to tell you, you and your department know how to do grass. When I'm out and about and seeing other fields around in some of the other cities, it's like man the grass, the turf we have is so superior. So cudo's to that. Gregory: It's got to be 8 to 9 years ago I started with a professional tuff fella and he got us on a fertilizing program and the whole program for taking care of ballfields and he's been great. I mean we really follow what he does and like last year, with the budget cuts we took, we took a big hit in our fertilizing program and that and he helped us out there to, instead of all the applications, we cut some back in different areas and able to keep the ones that we do have to have on the ballfields. Like I say, I've got to give him a lot of credit. He's really, he's done a great job for our athletic fields. Franks: Great. Hoffman: He started with us before irrigation and he basically said, don't call me until we start with irrigation and then we can talk about a turf management program and that's where it all the irrigation systems came on line at Lake Ann, and then following with the rec center, Bandimere and then the City Center project so. Before that, those ballfields, we couldn't not have a management program. Franks: Yeah, they're nice. I tell you. Aldght. Thank you very much. Saw the guys out on the, was it on Market Boulevard scraping the weeds out of the median the other day. I mean when you talk about increased maintenance, that really hit. You know there's the median on Powers now and you know there's going to be the whole library City Center Park area. I mean those are really, that's going to be a big increase in park maintenance. Hoffman: Pulte trail. West 78th Street. Franks: Right. I mean when I think of all the, well miles of trails we've added and we expect these all to be, or most of them to be plowed all winter long and maintained during the summer, I mean wow. Gregory: It's amazing. I do a lot of the trail plowing in the wintertime and that and it's amazing the people that you run into. They're out there walking and they're just, they said they moved out from the cities and they never expected to have trails you know open in the winter and that and they're just as happy as they can be in that. They just love it. 22 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Franks: I don't know if that's being worked into our funding process too and that as we expand our system, we really have to be able to expand funding for upkeep and maintenance too. What' s the point of having all this great stuff if we're not really able to keep it up at a level that's necessary so. Stolar: The budget. One that the City Council has taken away. Franks: Yeah, but you know, start taking it away and people can't walk on a plowed trail, you're going to have some angry people. So we'll keep that in mind Dale. Great, thanks. Alright, thanks all of you. Really nice reports. ADMINISTRATIVE: HIGHWAY 5 TRAIL UNDERPASS MAINTENANCE. Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. Commissioner O'Shea and others have expressed concern over the condition of the underpass situation at, it was the older one at Bluff Creek, which if you haven't seen it in mid-winter, it looks more like a glacier than an underpass. The ice is probably 2 ¥2 feet thick. From ground water, which just keeps building up, and the underpasses at both Bluff Creek and Riley Creek also have a variety of water, slippery, ice covered issues and then if you combine with tight tums. The design of the underpass, both under the frontage road and Highway 5, that was a MnDot design. It's about the best you can do faced with a limited fight-of-way. You have to have these sharp angles at the bottom to allow people to get down the steep slope, and angling them around. The design admittedly has some issues, mainly with the water. Their ground water, and both Amy and Dale commented that even during the drought water continued to flow out of the earth and onto these trails. What it creates in the shaded and cool areas is constant water creates that slime which is very slippery. I've talked to at least a couple adults on bikes that have gone down and were well aware because they use them regularly, what they were getting into. They just really creeps up on them and they both went down on their bikes. So in the interim we have signs and these are now installed? Gregory: Yes, they've been up for a couple weeks now. Hoffman: So that's what the sign say. Very obvious that you're entering a situation where there's either wet conditions, slippery conditions or ice covered. If we need to close them during the winter, we close them. And beyond that where we have to do is some drain tiling and then probably some curbing. For example, under Lake Ann at Bluff Creek, the Highway 5 section of the underpass, there is, the water flows directly on the trail because there is no other alternative. The trail goes down the hill from north to south. The trail is a low spot. The water flows from the north to the south and it flows right down the center of the trail. The trail will always be wet. There's simply no way to get around that unless you put French drains or drain tile on either side and then crown the trail to alleviate that problem. These projects are still under warranty or is still under contract with MnDot. They've not been turned over to the City of Chanhassen so currently we have number one, no obligation. And number two, really no right to be down there performing improvements. There's a punch list of probably a year to 18 months old right now that MnDot has not acted on so we have our engineering department checking into this. But my optimism is low with 212/312 on the horizon. I'm not sure that MnDot's going to have the resources out here to be chasing 2 year old problems on the Highway 5 project when they're going to be building 265 or 45 million dollar road. So we'll continue to provide updates to the commission and continue to work with the public on maintaining the best situation that we can. 23 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Franks: Any questions or comments for staff?. Amy, we'll start with you. O'Shea: No, I think Todd has addressed the concerns that I brought as quickly as possibly. It sounds like you're staying on top of it so that's all I can ask. Hoffman: It' s a touch spot. I have a member of my household in those trails...every other day so I receive weekly reports. O'Shea: Yeah, because it's the frontage road underpass as well as the other one so thank you for following up on that. Franks: Anything else, anyone? Spizale: I've got one. Do they sand at all in the wintertime? Does that help? Hoffman: We do very little sanding. Gregory: Very little, yeah. Spizale: If they were to leave a big barrel of sand where people that use the trail a lot, could spread it themselves. Would that help? Hoffman: Some areas it might but in most of those areas the build-up is so thick. Gregory: It freezes right over that. I don't think it's going to be much help at all. The only thing that it would really do any sanding on any trails is when we get the ice storms. It's strictly like a rain and it really, we do have a sander that we can go out and hit some of the main trails, but for that type of thing, I don't think it would really do any good. Hoffman: Most of that ice gets to be an inch, 2 inches. 3 inches thick and it's in a shady spot. You'd really pour the sand and salt on it to get it melted out of there. Franks: No, we don't want the salt in that area. Robinson: I have a question too. How much longer is MnDot responsible for those trails? Hoffman: I don't know. Robinson: Oh, okay. Stolar: Would it be worth our trying to spur something along there? Hoffman: We're trying. Stolar: No, but I mean to help you. Like is there something we could do? Hoffman: Let me check and see. 24 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Stolar: I mean like even a resolution to the City Council asking them to speak with our local representatives to say, we've got this problem. I mean they were pretty active on the 101 trail and then decided to alter the path. Hoffman: That may help. Teresa Burgess our City Engineer, Director of Public Works is checking on the time line right now. Just where MnDot is at with the paperwork on the project. Even if their time line's expired but they haven't acted on this punch list item, we won't accept the project so. Stolar: So as long as we get it on their list and it's valid on their list, the time line isn't as big an issue. Hoffman: Yeah, we're not even sure they've accepted our list but currently I don't believe they can find a copy of the punch list. MnDot. Franks: What, did you send it to them at night? Hoffman: Which night? Franks: Well any night because they don't really come out until night. I'm just wondering too, along with that sign if there weren't like lawyers that could be stationed at the sign, you know since it is MnDot. Stolar: I was thinking you could just give them the address of MnDot. If you want this situation changed, please call. Hoffman: I'll bring an update in October. TEST WELL FOR WELL g9. Hoffman: FYI for the commission. Again from Ms. Burgess. Had a dry well up at, just outside of Prince's front door. This is a drift well they're attempting to drill to supplement the city's water source. It was a dry location right there at the existing well just north of Prince's home and so now they're looking, they're testing, they're drilling test wells at Sugarbush Park. They're confident that they'll hit water at that location. If they do, they'll be coming back to the commission to talk about what type of appropriate structure would be buik there so it blends in with the park. It' s a small type of utility building for power and the well itself. Franks: And of course Todd they'd be open to constructing a structure of course with a regular roof line and extending the roof maybe 10-12 feet out with a concrete pad underneath. Hoffman: Depending on the location, sure. The test well right now is very near Galpin Boulevard. Franks: No, no, no. We could certainly find a nice location within the park for them to site the well house. Hoffman: We'll work with them. They'll work with us. Franks: Great, thanks for bringing that to our attention. 25 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Hoffman: And for those who are aware, the Lake Susan pavilion is a well. Built as a well house.., secondary use. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. Stolar: I just have a couple of quick things from the council meeting on the 8th. One is, there was a proposal for a golf course. Privately owned on some land. Who's name was that again? Hoffman: Halla. Stolar: And there were some questions actually one about the water. How they would get enough water, will it interfere with the water in the surrounding areas, and the other was the finance question. Hoffman: Tax impact of a golf course versus homes. Tax impact came back a wash. The water issue was left up to the permitting agency, the Department of Natural Resources and that was subsequently approved on the 15th at a special meeting. Stolar: Okay, well I thought they were going to do that test. Hoffman: No. Stolar: They're not. Just the normal approval process, okay. So maybe a golf course in the works. Then the only other thing was the snowmobile club, of granting the extension of the trail that we did. There were a couple questions there about the liability wording and who grooms and who takes care of it, and Todd answered the questions for them about the grooming, which is the snowmobile club. And then on the liability they took some language from the standard language that's now used in the state so. Hoffman: Subject to limitations and immunity in State Statute 466. That the City agrees to permit snowmobile use... That application was sent today for consideration by Three Rivers. We have to provide them that certificate of insurance and it's one of those items which it's time will come but, where it will no longer be acceptable to the general public to permit these snowmobiles from crossing via the community because as we continue to urbanize, we get more and more complaints on an annual basis because it's just tempting to get off of those designated trails into areas that these snowmobiles really shouldn't be. Eden Prairie went through it. Minnetonka went through it and finally just say no snowmobiling anywhere. You have to put it on a trailer and take it outside of town. Franks: Any other commission member presentations? Thank you Glenn. Amy? O'Shea: Yeah, is this where, Jack you brought it up and I've been thinking of it too. Does the commission want to bring back to the table at one meeting how interested we're in with an aquatics/field house/community center? Kind of in the last 6 months to a year we've just kind of tabled it and I'm just wondering where we're at with pursuing that. I still get a lot of comments from neighbors. When are we going to have an aquatic center? When are you going to partner up with the Y or whoever it might be? So is that something that we should try to pursue? I guess I heard that at our joint meeting at City Council that if we don't see the applicant, I don't know how quickly something would be looked at, if we aren't the leaders to get it going. 26 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Hoffman: I can provide the commission with an update following the joint meeting with the City Council. If you recall the council asked, isn't this on our strategic plan? City Manager, let's get this placed on our agenda so the City Manager has asked that I place this on a work session item for the City Council. It's in their strategic plan that they at least continue to review or consider that type of facility. That will most likely happen in November or December. We also have the referendum for the school district coming up for land purchase and I think focusing on making sure that that land purchase, if the referendum is successful, is in Chanhassen so we have the future opportunity to combine a pool/aquatic facility to the middle school which, but their middle school pool is how old? O'Shea: 30. Hoffman: Yeah, it's old. 30 years so there's def'mitely looking to build a new pool, and those type of relationships are one of the reasons that they're so strongly looking at Chanhassen. They know that we want and continue those conversations. So I think the timing is going to be important. Wait and see what the council has to say at their work session and then see what the referendum does and then I think probably just after the first of the year there will be some increased conversation in that area. Franks: Does that work? Are you willing to wait until that time? O'Shea: Sure. Because we have an interest, I think as a commission, to pursue that. Don't we? Just so it doesn't get lost I guess. Franks: There's been various ways to finance something and various public, private kind of joint ventures. Is this something that as a commission we want to refer to a committee of the commission just to kind of explore and investigate and kind of look into that kind of thing and bring information back on a periodic? Stolar: Didn't we send something out to people? Asking them. Hoffman: Yeah, a few months ago. Stolar: Did we ever get a report with all of the responses? I don't remember seeing. Hoffman: Sure, and then we had a follow-up to that. We had a citizen committee. Stolar: That's what it was. We didn't have that final committee report. Franks: Yes. Yes. We did. Hoffman: Rank the top 5 facilities that they wanted to see. It did not rank them by private, public. In fact kind of the overall I mean mood during that work session was for a public facility because they didn't think that the private was the feel that. Franks: Provided the community a gathering type feel, which is the citizen committee was really interested in creating a space where the community comes together for community and not at a for profit type of setting and facility. But I'm wondering if this, you know just to do some investigatory work on how some of the other places are being funded and what types of models 27 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 are out there. I mean if there's any interest. I'd certainly be supportive of a committee of our commission to take a look at that. If there's any interest. Atkins: Did you see the article in the paper on Sunday? There were five listed, Chaska being one of them. Hoffman: And then Paula, did you get the main slant was that it's not economics that drive these things. It's demographics. Where the young families are, that's where these are being built. Atkins: The school referendum issue is kind of a huge thing that's just going to go down pretty soon. I think that will have an impact on where we go with a community center after that. Franks: Well let's wait until then. That's coming up in November. But commissioners, if you want to consider, if that's a committee that anybody would be interested being on, I'd like to see maybe a smaller work group if there's enough interest to really do some investigation. Bring some information back so. Are there any other commission member presentations? Seeing none, then we'll move onto the Administrative packet. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: People love our parks. Got to tell ya. I always though the Boy Scouts, they had to show up at the meeting. It's different now. They just have to write a letter. We always used to have them out in the audience you know for their citizenship merit badge but. Hoffman: A lot of, three letters from young people in the community. Franks: There's the letter from, I mean the 112 on line. I know that it's kind of alluded to that they're looking in Chanhassen to purchase a property for a middle school/high school possibly dual campus and there's only like 4 viable sites I think. One of them in the AUAR area. Have we had Kate come talk to us about that yet? Hoffman: She'd be glad to do it. Franks: Would she be glad to do that? Is that, I'd like to see that get on a meeting schedule. Hoffman: Early October or November. We'll schedule it when it fits best with their progress. Franks: Great, thank you. Kelly: Question about the park fees. I know they were raised this summer. Do you think that reduced demand at all for the parks, or were they pretty much booked? Ruegemer: Yeah, they were booked quite a bit and we did keep track on the calendar and all the, I put that in as a kind of admin section for future, probably October meeting. As far as kind of what the highly demanded weekends and stuff were. Certainly we had many, many phone calls again this year. I don't have the total number as far as you know typically we're in that 95 to 120 range for booked facilities. I don't have that total number yet but we can certainly, but just general conversations, I didn't get a whole lot of negative comments. Some but people were going to complain if they pay $50 so, or $305. Franks: Great, any other comments on the administrative packet? 28 Park and Rec Commission - September 23, 2003 Robinson: I noticed that a couple people asked about more horseshoe pits. Is that possible? Ruegemer: It's a pretty easy fix. Robinson: Yeah, they're great. Ruegemer: We'll squeeze it on the list. Hoffman: We don't have horseshoes. We took them out. Gregory: We took them out. We had them at Lake Ann for a while. Ruegemer: In the Parkview picnic area. Robinson: Yeah, they were kind of hard to find I thought. Ruegemer: Well we're somewhat limited for space by the pavilion as well. We can look for a suitable location. Franks: Great, anything else? Akight, well the last item on our agenda of course is adjournment. Kelly moved, O'Shea seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 29