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PRC 2003 10 28CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 28, 2003 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Glenn Stolar, Amy O'Shea, Jack Spizale, and Tom Kelly MEMBERS ABSENT: Susan Robinson and Paula Atkins STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent; APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Glenn Stolar asked that staff provide an update on the budget process under reports, and Amy O'Shea asked to discuss user fees. Todd Hoffman stated he would provide an update on the City Hall lower level remodeling project and City Center Park construction. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Kelly moved, Spizale seconded to approve the verbatim and summary minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated September 23, 2003 as presented. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. ESTABLISH 2003/04 ICE SKATING AND HOCKEY RINK PROGRAM. Ruegemer: Thank you Todd and Chair Franks. Rest of the commission. Good evening. I wanted to bring this again to the Park and Rec Commission. We did talk about this item at length last year. I wanted to bring this forward again tonight, this evening to shed some new light on the upcoming season. The rinks are scheduled to be open again December 13th through February 15th, and with the flooding beginning the first or second week in December, depending on the weather and if it's appropriate to flood. The warming houses again will remain open again Monday through Friday, 4:00 to 9:00 and Saturday, 10:00 in the morning until 9:00 at night, and Sundays from 1:00 to 7:00. Portable trailers again will be located at North Lotus Lake Park and City Center Park. This year we eliminated one warming house trailer. With the new round house renovation, it is our hope to use that as a warming house this winter, and also then with the Chanhassen Recreation Center obviously is a full blown, very nice warming house and out building for our use. Last year in early December it was relatively cold. We started flooding all the rinks, as you recall. Our warm up came right before, about the first couple weeks in December, right after we flooded all the rinks. Warm up, kind of pretty much, we went back to ground zero again as you recall, Last year we had talked about developing kind of a procedure with guidelines to kind of guide us through those warm weather types of situations. Located down below is a policy that we developed to hopefully guide our department and kind of take away some of that guessing. What I'd like the commission to do tonight is to take a look at the policy. If there's any changes that need to be made. Now staff's recommendation that the Park and Rec Commission adopt this policy. That we can put it into place and publish if we need to. That way it's kind of black and white, here it is. That way we don't get into situations, you know Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 what rinks we flood. What rinks don't we flood, that sort of thing so hopefully it's clear enough. It gives us I think some clear direction that we can show the public and really have a good policy put into place. As you can see, December 20th or before, flood all rinks as established and adopted by the commission on an annual basis. December 21st through January l0th, flood rinks and that's basically the warming house locations where we kind of get our most bang for the buck. That we can have a place for people to stay warm and skate and more concentrate on those locations versus neighborhood locations. And then after January 11th, or after, we would cancel the season due to really as we've talked about in the past, really our main focus has been to get the rinks going before the holiday break when kids are off for the most part, and that really is where we get a lot of our use during that time. After January 11th, it's such a short season anyway, we figure that date would be really a good date that we just would, it's not worth the efforts of getting those up and going again. I would find that odd that we wouldn't flood by January 11~, but stranger things have happened, certainly in our climate and weather. We did review this at length last year. It was the commissioner's recommendation at that point that we flood all the pleasure and hockey rinks. And then I guess we'd go back then and I do have forms that we kind of developed back then with the schedules. We had commissioners scheduled at these particular locations that were rinks that did not have warming house attendants. As soon as we had all that established, schedules out, it got warm again and we didn't flood so that really was kind of a moot point last year and I kind of, ! guess I'm waiting I guess for direction from the commission this evening as to what direction you'd like to go in that certain operation again. So concluding, it's staff's recommendation that the warming house locations be maintained at the Chanhassen Rec Center, City Center Park, Roundhouse Park and North Lotus Lake Park for the upcoming season. And then it goes on to conclude kind of what rinks are included at those locations. This also, staff recommendation that we include the flooding of the pleasure rinks at Minnewashta Heights, Pheasant Hills, Carver Beach, Meadow Green, Rice Marsh, Sunset Ridge, and Chanhassen Hills, and that would total 15 rinks for the 2003-2004 season. And then it also, then we touched upon policy that I touched on briefly, previously like that and I also would like the commission to review that this evening and make necessary changes and then make a recommendation to staff and to approve that policy. Franks: Thank you. What we'll do Jerry, if you just want to hang with us for a minute, is see if there's any questions from commission members. Jack? Spizale: How many less rinks are we flooding than last year then? Ruegemer: This would be the full gamut again as we have in the past. Last year we only flooded the warming house locations, which was North Lotus, City Center, Roundhouse and who am I missing? North Lotus, City Center Park, Roundhouse and the Rec Center, four. Spizale: So according to this we'd be flooding everything that. Ruegemer: We would, and that's what the commission wanted to do after last year's discussions to do those and then collect data. Kind of like going out at certain times throughout the course of, well this was over the course of December, January and then into February. Last year I had the schedule and the forms here with the hopes of kind of collecting that information and then having some information or data to then make a bigger decision on the fate of the rinks. Spizale: It's a shame we didn't get a chance to get into it last year but it sounds like we're supposed to get a real winter this year. Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Ruegemer: It sure looks that way. And just also I failed to mention that just on the attachment in the report...amenities, addresses and then on the back side, that is dots represent I guess the locations of the rinks kind of spread out through Chanhassen. Spizale: That's all I got. Franks: Thank you Jack. Amy. O'Shea: Okay I have two questions. Jerry, last year you proposed that you'd like to see the 7 rinks closed. What has changed in your mind from last year to this year with your thinking? Ruegemer: In my mind I really think the policy kind of steered me in the right direction, that we have some guidelines that we have put forth in front of us that kind of takes away the guessing game of what is it going to be. Also I think it seems like it's, I really was confident that you guys would take a look at that and either we do this again and give us really a full season to evaluate into the future, plus just again hearing from certain individuals from various parks that would like to see their rinks back again. So in my opinion, I don't know if they really got a fair shake was kind of given last year after we made the recommendation to flood all the rinks, collect the data and then we couldn't because of the weather so I really wanted to go forth in kind of a positive fashion and see, you know where we need to go. O'Shea: Okay, and then my second question and last one is, with the flooding policy, those dates are, and I might just be missing this. That's if it's warm weather, this is what the schedule will follow, right? Ruegemer: Right. O'Shea: So if it's still warm and the rinks aren't freezing very well, on December 21st it would just go to those indicated on the policy? Ruegemer: Yeah, certainly there's, certainly we have to kind of play those situations out and decide that, you know either through the commission or departmentally, but this is, I think this gives us a pretty good foundation with that and you could pretty much tell before Christmas or the holiday break and that kind of what direction it would go. O'Shea: But that's what those dates are saying? If it's warm weather, this is the policy we'll. Ruegemer: Correct, because it really is our, and we certainly want to be responsible and put our efforts and financial means into situations that's going to be I guess responsible and that's really why after those certain dates we want to concentrate on the rinks that are going to see hopefully the most use. O'Shea: Okay, thanks. Franks: Tom? Kelly: I don't have any questions. Franks: Glenn? Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Stolar: Let's see, I have a couple. One, I noticed that there are no rinks south of Lyman, and then if we fall into this trap of the policy there will be none south of the Rec Center. So I guess one question would be, would it make, or would it be prudent but I'm asking your judgment, to hit one site south of the Rec Center just to cover that area of Chan, even afterwards. Otherwise it all falls like pretty much 5 and above. So that was my only concern is that, because I agree with your approach but at some point we're eliminating a good chunk of the city geography wise. I don't know if it's population wise but certainly geography wise. Ruegemer: I don't know if Glenn, if you were on the commission at the time we discussed this a couple years ago where we had discussed putting a rink possibly in the parking lots of Bandimere Park and we haven't, we have not to this point revisited that idea again. We somewhat lose park locations kind of in that southern part and southwestern part of the city. That doesn't mean that we can't find, try to find a location but typically it has been focused more so on the north side with the population. Stolar: Sure. I guess my thought would be that we consider after the 20~ potentially doing one of the southern sites just so that, let's say it does turn out to be nice weather starting the 21st or 22nd, you still have a good chunk of the holiday time that we can cover that area, so I understand these are guidelines so I guess this is just feedback that as we look at that, we might want to consider say like potentially Chanhassen Hills be considered for if the weather turns, that we're able to flood one of those. And then my other question was, the week of the 20th, I understand that coincides with break, but again if the weather tums to be more favorable for flooding, we have a couple weeks of break. So we might want to consider those dates a little bit flexible. I understand we have to deal with your staffs holiday schedule also, be cognizant of that but. Ruegemer: Well their scheduled regardless and it's basically a phone call to cancel, or cancel the group, but certainly the dates are, I won't call them soft dates but I would certainly like to have some guidelines put into place that we can kind of base those decisions on a policy. Stolar: And logically surrounding that, if we can get it done before the holidays, let's do everything. If we can't, then let's focus more, and I agree with those guidelines but as long as we're a little bit flexible, and if it tums out that a day later it's nice weather, we can go ahead and do it. Or weather for flooding. Franks: Nice for flooding. Stolar: Nice for flooding. Hoffman: There's always that lag time in there too. Once you start flooding, it's 10 days before you have a rink. Stolar: Oh okay, that makes sense too. Because then you aren't getting into almost New Year's by that time. Okay. Franks: What is the approximate cost for like setting up and maintaining the pleasure rinks? Ruegemer: I don't have those offthe top of my head. Do you recall? Franks: I mean in a typical kind of season. Hoffman: What do you want to include in your costs? Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Franks: Well, you know there's definitely there's the, I'm assuming one of the biggest costs is the over time on the park maintenance crew for flooding. And ! mean if we wanted to get really technical, we could work in the equipment usage as well. Hoffman: Last time we calculated it was for budget purposes for the council and it included labor. The equipment, the water and as far as I recall, it was right around $5,000. Franks: For pleasure, that's about what I remember too. Alright. Hoffman: And a good portion of that is the appreciation on the vehicles, fuel and then labor. Franks: Now as far as the budgeting for 03-04 season, has the all 11 rinks, including not only the warming house rinks but all the pleasure rinks, has that been budgeted? Was that budgeted? Ruegemer: Yes it was. Franks: And does that come out of what, the operating? Ruegemer: The warming houses and the warming house attendants comes out of our recreation program budget, 1600. Overtime for flooding rinks and those types of expenditures would come out of the park maintenance. Franks: Park maintenance. Okay. Are there any other questions? Kelly: Yeah I do have a question. I apologize. Franks: Go ahead. Kelly: You mentioned something a couple years ago about setting up a rink in Bandimere Park. Do you have the same cost structure as flooding any one of these other pleasure rinks or because it would be a new rink there'd be more cost associated with that? Ruegemer: Well certainly going into that type of situation, if ! were to have to put some type of barrier between the parking lot and the rink itself, whether it be boards of some sort, it'd be kind of hard without some type of a structure to capture the water versus flooding it right on the asphalt itself. You know the possibility maybe to flood it on Field Number 1 that has an angle iron type of infield to do that. That we could do that type of situation where we keep the water on top of that. That would be a possibility. Kelly: Now I was wondering just because I know it's a lot more parking there than any of the neighborhoods so I'm just wondering if it wouldn't make sense to replace site 11 with Bandimere. Unless it's not, I mean their proximity is really close. It was just a thought. Hoffman: Good thought. Something to consider. Franks: Any other questions? If there aren't any more questions then we'll pull it back for comments. Stolar: Jerry, did you want us to do the survey this year? Or try to do some sort of survey. Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Ruegemer: That is certainly up to the commission, if you would like, I think we talked about empirical data last year. If the commission would like to have some information to kind of base that. We as a staff certainly can go out during the flooding process with our park maintenance staff and on a daily basis and check those rinks and kind of keep track on it as we have in the past. As far as a couple skate marks or you know kind of gauge the activity of that. We certainly can do that. I think it was the commission's wish last year to really go when the park maintenance crews were not out on the rinks at various times throughout the course of the weekends to see kind of what types of activities. Have some data to back that up to kind of base your decision on progressing with those locations. Franks: Okay. Any other comments Glenn? Stolar: No. Franks: Tom, comments? Kelly: I've got to, I mean I like what you said about we made a commitment to the residents last year to try the study. Weather didn't cooperate so it's almost like, ! feel there's almost a responsibility for us to keep good on our word from last year and give it a year. So I hadn't thought about it in that terms until what you said. I was more leaning towards let's just do a few of them but I thought what you said made a lot of sense so that' s my only comment. Franks: Amy. O'Shea: My comments, because last year I was the one that said we needed harder data and statistics and then I was thinking, you know two years now in a row we haven't opened those so maybe it would be a good time to, because you felt so strongly that your statistics were solid on just low use, so I was surprised when I saw your recommendation to open them after 2 years. So one, ! guess I would like to still get some hard data. Not hard data but at different times that you're not capable to do with your staff, that we would volunteer to just get some numbers to get, and the only thing I would like to see if we do open those again, that the community, after being closed for 2 years, that that's really well communicated that if the numbers aren't there, we will close in 2004-2005 because I think if we open them now and then in a year later we were to close them, it's going to look really, if we don't communicate what happened, it's going to look real wishy washy. Alright, well they were closed for 2 years. You open them for a year. Not you take them away so I think if we communicate to remind them why they were closed for 2 years, and we're collecting usage numbers and if the numbers don't meet the minimum, we're just going to have to close some or all, depending on, is that possible to do to communicate? Do you think? Ruegemer: We certainly can do that. I know we had talked about last year that we necessarily didn't want to attach this to numbers because numbers can be doctored. As far as people coming out and, we just want to make sure that I think it seems like the people I've talked to in Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta area are certainly have a genuine interest in getting their rinks back. We talked about last year, I think the neighborhoods are changing over in some locations. You know some have not skated in the past are being replaced with younger families that are looking for a rink so, but we certainly can communicate that to the neighborhoods. O'Shea: Okay, good. Thanks. Franks: Jack, any comments? Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Spizale: I agree. I think we should give it one more chance. Like I had said earlier, I think we're supposedly supposed to get a real winter this winter. It's a chance to test it out. And I think the idea of us going out and getting some of that data ourselves is good because it gives us a chance to go to the parks ourselves. See what's going on and talk to any people that are there, if we have a chance to and get a feel for what's going on. That's all. Franks: Not to find myself in the minority again this year, but I was a little surprised too by kind of the reversal on the position and I would still be of the mind to advocate closing the neighborhood pleasure rinks and only maintaining rinks where we are able to site a warming house. And a couple of reasons for that. One is, fortunately how the weather over the last two years has helped us out in not really having active pleasure rinks, and you know I think not that we've gotten used to it but we've almost gotten used to not having them. And then just from observation myself, considering like a rink like Chan Hills or Sunset Ridge where you have to park. Walk down a path and get to the rink. It's not like you can sit in your car and put your skates on or whatever. There's no warming house. I just don't think those rinks are going to get used. They're going to be there. They're going to look great. I don't think they're going to get used. When we look at it, if we're talking $5,000 apiece for a pleasure site. Neighborhood pleasure rink, I mean we could be saving ourselves upwards of $35,000 this year. In some ways to me that strikes me as, in this era of diminishing resources and thinking about the conversations we've had as a commission the last couple of meetings, and the importance of how we're going to allocate our resources, I think that we could do a little bit more with $35,000 than take a shot on opening up neighborhood ice rinks without warming houses. You talked about getting the data again and I'll say it again, I think I said it last year and maybe even the year before too. We've been down that road over and over again and we've constantly been frustrated with our attempts to get meaningful data just because it's so difficult to acquire it. And then we're always left, that's why I think we're still asking the question is because you know this might just be data that we just can't get. That would be my feeling on it so I would be in favor of not opening up the neighborhood pleasure finks and only maintaining ice at sites 1, 8, 7 and 5 where we're able to site a warming house. And I would also be in favor in considering at some point in the future opening up a site with warming house at Bandimere Park. That just seems to make sense to me. I don't know if we'd be capable of doing that this year or not. It sounds like as far as technology we wouldn't be able to set something up, but I think we should spend the next year really taking a look at what would be necessary to set up a really good rink at Bandimere. Stolar: But I thought you said, don't we have a trailer possibility or is it too late for that? Ruegemer: Well during the 2003 budget cycle we certainly did budget a trailer for the Roundhouse, so as far as the money is accounted for in this year's budget for a trailer. If we don't need one at Roundhouse, then we only needed 2 trailers and we had budgeted for 3. Franks: Well my feeling then, I guess I didn't understand that. Thanks Glenn for clarifying. My feeling then would then be to close the neighborhood pleasure rinks and open up a rink with a warming house at Bandimere. Ruegemer: Can I interject? Franks: Yeah. Ruegemer: One thing to consider is we don't have any type of light source at this point at Bandimere and/or power for a warming house. That's something we can probably incorporate Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 though and get that hopefully going in a relatively short time period here but that's something, certainly something staff can investigate. In getting that together. Kelly: There is a power source at Bandimere. Ruegemer: There is power but we need 220 power to run the heaters for the warming houses. So it's something we never had to be trenched before the frost goes in the ground in a couple weeks. And/or some type of a light source put in. Franks: Alright. Are there any other comments? Stolar: I do have one other question. You mentioned a couple things, and it seems like there's some more detail here that might be helpful in making a decision. One is accessibility and parking to make it easy to use some of these neighborhood sites, and you know some of it obviously is people in the neighborhoods just walking to it. And then the second question I have is just, you look at kind of the bunching here, right. There are two neighborhood sites that are fairly close proximity to some warming house sites versus you know again I go to south and there's nothing there. I'm wondering if there's a happy medium here where we try some neighborhood parks where the access is... Franks: Then we have one neighborhood that's you know getting a rink and then another one that isn't, and why, since we had one before are we not getting one and you are. And so I guess kind of the way that I'm thinking is, look if we site these in geographically or in the main park area like Roundhouse, City Center, you know the Rec Center and Bandimere, we're really looking at the more, not just neighborhood park settings but community park settings and we're installing a warming house. Kind of setting it up, this is really a city amenity, not just a neighborhood amenity. Stolar: The only thing I would add to that is, and though Roundhouse is unique because it actually has a physical warming house right there, but North Lotus Lake, which is the one I would use, that is a neighborhood park. It just happens to be identified, it has a built in rink already, but it is classified as a neighborhood park, isn't it? Franks: Right, and we looked at Roundhouse and North Lotus as a little bit unique because of the geographic separation from the rest of the city. One is Lake Minnewashta for Roundhouse and then of course Lotus Lake for North Lotus so we're making some concession there, but that was the thinking anyway. I mean it seems to make sense I think. Stolar: Yeah, and all I would actually be talking about is if we did a Bandimere or something south, and then we did number 3, which is kind of in the middle there. The rest of them seem like they're, actually where would Bandimere fall in here? Ruegemer: Bandimere would be right here. Stolar: Okay, so it's pretty close to where those other sites are. Hoffman: Something to remember with Bandimere and Site tl, which is Chanhassen Hills is Chanhassen Hills has been outfitted with a skating rink light. Franks: Right, and power. Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Stolar: Just so we've got south covered. Get straight north covered with 3, and some of these others are already permanent there, and that's 6 sites. Ruegemer: And the commission certainly can revise that list if they choose to tonight and certainly make recommendations to flood certain locations. Stolar: My only concern is if we go to just the 4 sites, then a big chunk of population doesn't have anything. O'Shea: The other thing I, oh can I throw something out? Franks: Go right ahead. O'Shea: The other thing I noticed too is, a lot of neighborhoods that have wetlands have taken it upon themselves to flood their own rinks, which I think is a plus plus for the community. And they run water on them. They shovel them. They even have strung lights on some. I want to see that continue because I don't think the city could afford to put up that many rinks, so that's why again when I saw that you recommended to keep them all open, even though I was a real advocate to try it last year. This year I was going to come in and say you know, let's just have the warming, like Rod just stated. Let's just have the warming houses open because the neighborhoods seem to be taking care of themselves and then the kids can run in the house and be warm. That it seems that, and I was going on your statistics that you felt that they were pretty strong. That after 2 years of being closed would be the best time to not to re-open, because that's why I mentioned before, you know we don't want to look wishy washy. Two years they're closed, and then we open and then if the numbers aren't there, we close. So I think maybe I'm leaning now towards more with Rod of warming house locations and keeping it at that and then, because I do think people haven't just quit skating. They have found alternatives in the last 2 years and ! think the change has taken place, I think the hardest thing to convince people is to change. So nature has taken care of that for us because they made their own accommodations so I'd hate to then re-introduce something and then have it taken away and then they'd have to go back to a change. So that's why I'm leaning towards just staying with 4 or 5 locations with warming houses that are strategically placed and leaving it at that. I hope that didn't sound too wishy washy, and I know I was real strong on it last year, but again having them closed for 2 years and thinking what you said last year, how strongly you felt they should be closed. Seven should be closed. Before I got your packet I was thinking well you know what, let's go with Jerry. And then when I opened it, I thought oh my goodness, he's gone my way that I wanted to go last year and now I'm going to go the other way. So that's. Stolar: Your strategy's working Jerry. O'Shea: I'tl catch on next time. But that's why I'm leaning towards, does that make sense? So I need to, the residents have made the change already and I'd hate to reintroduce them and then in a year take them away again, because I think they'll forget why they were closed for 2 years. That's why I mentioned before we really have to make sure we communicate what happened. Hoffman: All except for a couple people will not forget. O'Shea: Yeah, but and again, yeah if it's just a couple people then it would prove that the numbers are low. Hoffman: A couple of advocates will be around. Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 O'Shea: Yeah, but anyway that's my thinking. Hoffman: Chair Franks, if I could add, picking up on Commissioner Stolar's question about the budget. One of the items that is considered in our proposed operating budget, includes 10 percent cuts to our operating budget. Two of those items include the reduction of temporary seasonal labor by $12,600. That would eliminate all warming house attendants. The second is a cut of $4,600, or at least a proposed elimination that would eliminate all warming houses. All of the structures themselves. By eliminating the outside rinks, you're not going to save this money because the warming houses are still there. The attendants are still there. But you do start to modify the budget concerning staffing and labor because as we continue to compress our budgets, we're finding less time to do all the necessary work for the community so there is some savings in the labor force. But, and there are other communities across the metropolitan region that have completely eliminated their ice skating rink programs due to budgetary concerns so I just want to bring that to the commission's attention as you continue to deliberate over this item. O'Shea: Do you have budgeted to heat the round house? Ruegemer: I guess what the thought was, was that we would have to pay for that monies out of the monies that we budgeted in the 2003-2004 budget for the warming house. For not paying for the trailer. That sort of thing, that we can allocate that money then towards some type of heating source. Hoffman: Baseboard heat, electric service. Ruegemer: We're kind of going into, that situation similar to what we did in the Rec Center. We had to have, when it first opened we had to have a full year. The next year's budget done before it even opened up the doors for this year so we're kind of in the same situation with round house. We don't really know how much power's going to be but we'd certainly like to address that in the future. Stolar: Just another quick question, just to clarify something. Is Chanhassen Hills Park capable of housing a warming house, a trailer? Hoffman: We had one there in the past. Stolar; Okay. And then these budget cuts, if those go through, this is all moot because we're closing all the rinks anyway. Hoffman: Correct. O'Shea: Wait, say that again? What did you just say? Stolar: Well if those budget cuts go through we're closing down the warming houses. Would we still flood the rinks, it's just there will be no warming house? Ruegemer: There would not be warming houses or warming house attendants. And it was my recommendation when I did that was to maintain the neighborhood rinks. Hoffman: Put ice out but no warming houses and no attendants. 10 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Stolar: So if we got rid of the warming, the exterior rinks, the neighborhood rinks that don't have warming houses, attendant, I thought you said we couldn't use that money then to. Hoffman: It's just labor cost. It's already there. Those are full time employees with some overtime wages that would be saved in salary but you can't transfer that money out and start using somewhere else. Franks: But that later on would be used to bond other projects that just aren't being taken care of throughout the year. Hoffman: Correct. O'Shea: So just redirected. Well I'm leaning towards just leaving the 4 with warming houses as is and not even adding another warming house spot. So there we go. Franks: Well there's two ways to go. I mean there's two ways to go. We can kind of lay them out. One is to go along with the recommendation from staff which is to really flood the city with rinks, so to speak. The other one is to really stick with just opening up and maintaining the sites that have a warming house. And then there's the additional idea that's come up that either this year or next year, my proposition would be that next year we work in the warming house site at Bandimere and then really stick to just 5 rink sites. Stolar: And a fourth option of not the warming house but flooding number 11 just to cover that area. Franks: With the option of just flooding number 11, sure. Since it's got the light. Stolar: Of the 3 down there, that's the one that's probably the most conducive, infrastructurally. Ruegemer: Correct. O'Shea: Can you remind, is that the one though that had the least amount of usage? Franks: One of them that had the least amount of usage, correct. Ruegemer: Correct. Franks: And I think the reason for that is one, it's kind of tucked away. And two, the parking is a fair distance from where the rink actually is. O'Shea: At Chanhassen Hills? Franks: Yeah. Stolar: Oh, that is one that has the parking issue that you were. Hoffman: If you look at your map and you draw squares around site 1, 8, 7 and 5, all the warming houses, it really services the core of the city and I know you're struggling with the 7 park but I takes care of the west. 5 takes care of the northeast. 8 and 7 are both in the heart of the city. Very accessible and it's just whether or not you want people to drive up 101 to City Center or Bandimere in the south. 11 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Franks: Not that much of a trek to get from Springfield up to the City Center Park. Stolar: No it's not. Franks: Or from Chan Hills either. I mean that's, how many times a day do all us do that? Stolar: Right. But there are a lot of houses down there... Franks: And it's going to continue to develop more south of 5. That's why I think we should really be prepared to open up a rink at Bandimere, because there's North Bay, Springfield, and the development south of Pioneer Trail them too on the south side of Lake Riley. Hoffman: Yeah, if you want to plan for a rink at Bandimere, we should do some capital planning. Franks: Right. Like power. Hoffman: I think people feel much more at home during the evening in a winter in a community park where there's sufficient parking, lighting to accommodate use. They don't feel like they're intruding on a neighborhood recreational services. Franks: Well is anybody interested in making a stab at a motion? O'Shea: I can try to throw one out and we can, I'll just add, but I would recommend that we accept staff's policy concerning flooding of rinks when warm weather is happening, and that we flood the four rinks, Roundhouse, North Lotus Lake, City Center Park and Chan Rec Center where there are warming houses for the 2003-2004 season. With the possibility of adding Bandimere as a warming house site and rinks site in 2004-2005. Franks: Okay. Well, there's a motion before us. Is there a second? Stolar: Second. Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? O'Shea moved, Stolar seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept the warm weather flooding policy as presented, and to recommend to flood only the four rinks, Roundhouse Park, North Lotus Lake Park, City Center Park and Chan Rec Center where there are warming houses for the 2003-2004 season, with the possibility of adding Bandimere as a warming house site and rink site in the 2004-2005 season. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. ESTABLISH RULES GOVERNING THE USE OF BICYCLES~ IN-LINE SKATES~ SCOOTERS~ AND SKATEBOARDS; CITY CENTER PARK. Todd Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. It was quite evident that this policy would need to be discussed and approved by both the commission and the City Council prior to our opening of the park in the spring. The City Center Park Commons, or plaza has been a very popular location throughout the construction for the kids from the skate park and just downtown in general to try out all of these different types of vehicles on the variety of obstacles that were in 12 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 place, both that will be permanent obstacles and that were in place for construction, When you think about the use of these vehicles in the park, we are inviting bicycles to enter the park for the intent of accessing the library or City Hall. We have a bike rack for, a very nice permanent bike rack. You can park 25 bikes at right dead center in the plaza right out in front of City Hall here so if we're going to be inviting bicycles to bike their way into the park, it would be somewhat discriminatory to say you couldn't scooter into the park or rollerblade into the park, or take your skateboard into the park, at least for transportation and then pick it up and store it wherever you would store that once you enter the library. So it's at least staff's thought initially that we start with the policy of saying those vehicles are permitted for transportation within the park, but the aggressive use of those vehicles for jumping, riding rails, grinding is not permitted. Of course the next likely step would be just to eliminate their use or their presence altogether and if the commission thinks that the way we should go right off the bat, we would certainly carry that motion forward as well. So with that it's staff's recommendation that we start with the policy which states that non-motorized bicycles, skateboards, in-line skates and scooters are permitted as a means of transportation in the City Center Park plaza. And again the aggressive use of those vehicles is not permitted. Franks: Thank you. Let's bring that up for questions from commission members. Any questions from staff? Spizale: I've got one. So what would you, if this was made a rule, you'd have these posted at all the entrances? And one other thing. Obviously bikes wouldn't be a problem but with that brick, I wouldn't imagine that skateboards going across it would be a problem, would it? Hoffman: They'd love it. Spizale: Okay. Franks: Amy, any questions? O'Shea: No, I think mine are more discussion. Franks: Okay. Tom, any questions? Kelly: Where'd you say is the bike rack? Or where will it be. Hoffman: Located just, from east to west, center, right in the area between City Hall and the library. So where you come up to the library, there's the steps on one side and the ramp on the other. And you go forward towards the east approximately 50 feet and there's a planting bed there and then just immediately east of that planting bed running north and south are all the bike racks. They're covered right now by a big wood structure. Franks: Glenn. Stolar: I have a discussion but not questions. Franks: Alright, I just have a question. Can you have quotes inside of quotes? Can we do that? Aggressive in quotes inside of quotes. Stolar: You would have I believe single quotes. 13 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Franks: I think you'd have single quotes. Hoffman; On aggressive. Stolar: Yes. Franks: On aggressive. Not that, you know Jan taught me well. Alright, that's the only question that I have so let's bring it back. Thanks for answering that too. Let's just bring it back for some discussion here on the commission. Any, let's just open it up for comments. Glenn. Stolar: I equate the situation to a situation we had at Eden Prairie when Round Lake, they put in the new playground. It was right next to a bike path and the concern was kids running back and forth, especially because the swing sets were on the opposite side. And so what we determined was that part of the path was a no wake zone, right. That's what we called it because it was a boating theme of the park, and what it was is that you walked your bikes. You got off your scooters. You got off your skateboards. In-line skates are a little bit more difficult but, and I think that's what this park ought to be. I mean I think it's envisioned, right or wrong, who pays for it, all that stuff but it's envisioned as a place where people can gather. They can walk around. We're going to have farmers market there. You can't mix that with bikes being ridden so I don't think there's anything wrong with posting please walk your bike or scooter or skateboard, whatever, however the wording would be, and they can still go park their bikes. It's not that far to walk it over there, and the people can still walk through. You know they skateboard up there. Again in-line skates I'm not so sure what you do. Hang your skates or I don't know how you would approach that but ! think it should be a walking zone. I don't think it should be a riding zone. Franks: Okay. Tom. Kelly: I agree with everything Glenn said. Franks: Well I do too. No. I'm working on the same line you are too. I was really looking at changing this a little bit to non-motorized bicycles, skateboards, in-line skates and scooters are permitted as a means of transportation to the City Center Park Plaza and you know, to think like a teenager, I can just hear one of them saying, well I wasn't aggressively riding the rails. I was just nicely riding the rails. You know and so let's just be simple and declarative and say, jumping, riding rails, grinding, etc, which leaves it open to our interpretation, is not permitted and we could even then add something, please walk your vehicle or whatever we want to use the term through City Center Park. Through the park. O'Shea: Yeah, or just please walk through. Stolar: Yeah, I mean if you look, I think they still have them posted at Round Lake. If you look it says please walk your bike. Franks: Or not, but those are some changes that I would recommend that we make. Making it clear that we want people to get to the park by wheeled means. Wonderful. But that's where your fun stops as far as riding around in the park. Amy? O'Shea: Yeah, I'm in full agreement with that as well that you can use whatever transportation to get to the park, but once you're there you need to walk because I was envisioning two farmers market stands or just elderly people or just anyone walking through and a skateboard comes 14 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 scooting out from somebody and hitting them, and I think actually we're ahead of the game because most, a lot of communities have the trouble of not having a place for the in-line skaters and skateboarders so they make something, so we couldn't be better outfitted then having it right next door that this is where you do that activity, but when you come into City Center Park, you need to walk. So I think we already have what they need in order to use those modes, or that sport and that they should just stay over there. And then when they want to come to the library or into the park, they just need to walk is where I'm at. Thank you. Spizale: I agree with Rod and Amy. Plus there's a sidewalk that goes all the way around the perimeter. I don't think, if someone did want to ride, there's no problem going around the park. Nobody says I'd have to cut through it riding, so I think for safety reasons and for just having a nicer park, it'd be nice if they didn't. If they want to cut through, they'd have to walk their bike. I agree with that. Hoffman: You can just envision this youngster driving by on their bike and grabbing the apples out of the farmers market. Like the old movies. Franks: Right, right, right. No, they have their friend on the skateboard distract them first and then ride by on the bike and grab them. Alright. Well does anybody want to put that together? Hoffman: I think you make the motion, staff will go ahead and word smith and bring it back. Franks: Will you do that? But you're understanding that our idea is that we don't want riding really of any kind through the park. Encourage people to ride to it. And I personally Todd, I'd like actually coming right out and saying that jumping, riding rails, grinding, etc is not permitted, just so we're very clear to concrete reasoners of that age, without making them develop into formal operators. Okay, is there a motion? Stolar: So moved. Franks: Second? Spizale: Seconded. Stolar moved, Spizale seconded to directed staff to bring back a motion establishing rules governing bicycles, in-line skates, scooters and skateboards for City Center Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. USER FEES. Franks: Amy you brought this up so why don't you tell us a little bit about that. O'Shea: Okay. I, along with some other people went to the commissioner's workshop a couple weeks ago and the idea of a user fee surfaced and we talked about that about a year ago and when we instated the subcommittee to work on revenue producing ideas, and then that was Jack and myself and Dave and then when Dave left the commission, you know he chaired that so it kind of defuncted. But I'd like to bring that up again. After going to that and hearing Shorewood charges I think she said $20 a person, and she also said Shakopee charges $10 a person, and when I looked into when that subcommittee was in force, I called, it was either Edina or Eden Prairie and I think they're charging $6 or $8 a person user fee that goes right to the city and I still think that's something we should at least investigate further or have the staff investigate with 15 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 surrounding communities. What they're charging and put that to how many participates am in CAA, basketball or, especially the heavy use sports that are so hard on the fields like football, hockey, soccer and see what that would generate for our community if we put a user fee on top of just the registration fee. Franks: So these user fees are for each participant for each sport that they might play. O'Shea: That's what ! understood. Yeah. Ruegemer: Is that using city facilities and non, or school district facilities as well? O'Shea: I think Todd maybe you know more too what Shorewood does. I took it was city. Hoffman: City facilities, yeah. O'Shea: Yeah. So for example when you're like at City Center, when you're flooding the hockey rinks and they're actually being scheduled for the hockey association, I don't see why they shouldn't pay a little bit towards the expense of keeping those maintained in such great shape as your staff does. And again that's where we need to look at, you know do we just do it with, I don't know, them could be a different fee too for heavy use versus not heavy or have it all the same but I think it's a way that one, I think it's fair for the extra use. The cost that goes into maintaining those fields and having to re-seed after a season's over. And it's worth looking at I think for a revenue generating. Franks: I think it's a really good time of the year to bring this up, because it gives us some time throughout the winter to really take a look at it. I think it sounds like a great idea. Something that we should really consider. Kelly: Just as an example, just so I can understand this. They play Little League on the Chanhassen baseball fields, so what Shorewood might do. Let's say right now the Little League fee is $35 per kid. So what Shorewood would do is charge $45 per kid and now the Shorewood Park, whoever runs the Little League then funnels $10 back to the city for each kid that signs up? Franks: That's the way I understand it. O'Shea: Yeah. They get their rosters and they just double check the amount that the check was written for matches the roster. That's the way I understood that it works. Franks: You know at first when I was listening to you I was like wow, that doesn't seem .... Maybe we shouldn't fund for the maintenance of those facilities, or for the upgrade of those facilities. Especially now when we consider where are these funds going to come from for maintenance and upgrade. It's just I think going to be a reality so Todd, is this something that we can get on, give you guys some time to kind of put a report together what's happening in the neighboring communities as far as user fees for these types of field usages or amenity usages. Hoffman: For the December meeting. Franks: For December? Does that give you enough time? Hoffman: Sure. 16 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Franks: Okay. Great, with a recommendation as well. Do we need a formal motion for you to go forward on that? Hoffman: No. Franks: Okay, sounds good. Great, thanks Amy. RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS: 2004 FEBRUARY FESTIVAL. Franks: I see that Corey's not here and who will be handling that this evening? Ruegemer: I will. Franks: Superintendent Ruegemer. Ruegemer: Thank you. This is just basically an FYI for the commission to kind of put the dates on the calendar and kind of look, as we looked ahead to this year's Feb Fest. It will be on Saturday, February 7th. Corey kind of goes through and kind of gives you kind of a break teaser on kind of what's going to be happening again this year, but basically it's just to kind of get on your calendars for the commission at this point. Stolar: Just one thing, last year when we did the, I think Todd, you and I talked about it. When we do the fishing contest, just to consider maybe having two parallel contests. One for the smaller type fish and one for the bigger type fish, because even the largest perch or whatever it was, doesn't even come close to the smallest northern, so maybe like top 10 in each category. Something to consider. You know let Corey decide but people were a little bit disappointed when they brought in a nice size perch and realized it didn't mean anything. I don't know if I have the fish right so Todd correct me if I'm wrong. Hoffman: Nope, those are right. We've had different categories in the past and then we took them away so, we've gone both ways. 2003 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY. Franks: Great. Tree lighting. Anything else? Ruegemer: Just a highlight. We're going to have the tree lighting ceremony down here in our new park this year. We're going to change the locations and move it back down to this location and kind of decorate...trees that are going to be planted down on the corner of Market Boulevard and West 78th Street. Franks: I was just going to say, because there is no tree. Hoffman: Not yet. Ruegemer: There will be. Franks: Is it the tree that will be in the circle? 17 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Hoffman: There's 3 trees that will go in the circle. Franks: Okay. What varieties of trees finally made the cut? Hoffman: A pine tree, a river birch and a maple I think. Franks: Three different varieties? Hoffman: It will be beautiful. Especially into the future as they grow. Franks: As they grow, great. Alright. 2003 HALLOWEEN PARTY. Ruegemer: Thank you again for the commissioners that were out at the Halloween Party last Saturday night. We had I think, to experience that event first hand is certainly beneficial. To thank you Glenn and Tom for being out there. I wish the rest of the commission could have been there. Just to give you a little background. This year pre-registered we had 275 as compared to 215 last year for 2002. The day of registration for this year we had 122 this year versus 112 last year so this year total we had 397 kids participate in the Halloween Party versus 327 during 2002. So count parents onto that and grandparents that were there, they were up around probably in excess of 700. So there was a, as commissioners that were doing the games, there was not a break during that event so it was, I think that's a nice event. We're going to modify our picture taking with the witch next year, and hopefully get that. Charlie Eiler, one of our park maintenance staff kind of thought up a kind of a nice little component of the event to have, he made a witch kind of flying in an upright position with a digital camera. We had computers out there and printers in the hope that the kids could go and kind of simulate flying behind the witch and the camera then would turn and they'd have, it'd look on the picture that you were flying behind the witch holding onto the cape, or whatever so it was a great idea. We just need to modify a few things from last year but people were thrilled just having the opportunity to take the picture and having it printed out within minutes of taking the picture, so Rick Rice and his family. Rick Rice is our information, or MIS person. Head person with our computers here at the city. He and his entire family were out there on Saturday night stacking the computers and loading paper and they did a great job with that. Stolar: How many pictures total were taken? Ruegemer: Probably in excess of 150 to 200 pictures. Hoffman: Was it just. . .issue? Speed, or what was the issue? Ruegemer: Not necessarily. It was more of a, kind of a processing as far as, Rick has a better understanding now of how the bigger picture's going to work out versus just snapping the picture so that it either do some stuff within the computer or the digital camera to kind of turn things so it will print out. Hoffman: So it didn't look like they were flying? 18 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Ruegemer: No... It still was fun but comments I heard just walking around the crowd that people were very happy that the pictures were being taken so I don't think they even know what we were trying to do. What the end result should have been. Hoffman: We'll surprise them next year. Ruegemer: They were thrilled nonetheless so. So we had a great turnout for that, and that's even with the City of Chaska has an event that same night so. Stolar: And the Arboretum had something that same night too. Ruegemer: The Arboretum does too? Stolar: Yeah, but only their's was outdoors so I'm not sure they had a lot of attendance. Ruegemer: Yeah, it was cold on the hayride. Stolar: That was a great event. Corey and his team did a great job. Ruegemer: And just a side note. We had many volunteers from the KEY Club from the high school and heard so many positive comments that this is probably the best group that they've ever had up there. They were interacting with the participants and having a great time. It really showed to our people that were there, they were committed to the event which was fantastic. Stolar: Would it be appropriate, because I thought they did a great job too, and Tom and I were talking about this. Would it be appropriate to invite some of their leaders here to get a recognition and a thank you from us? Because they were very enthusiastic. Just all over the place with the. Some of them brought their own costumes and a couple of them brought a couple of different costumes so they could change mid-way. They got very involved. They didn't want to be the same costume throughout the whole thing. Hoffman: This event has a wonderful history tradition...as a small town festival. There was local characters that would dress up. City staff and the commission and that was it, and it started right over in the elementary school down the hallway. It survived the '91 blizzard. It was the night of the '91 blizzard so people were heading home as the snow was beginning to accumulate. Strong tradition in town. Franks: I like the idea of putting something together for the KEY Club. Great. Alright. CASABLANCE ORCHESTRA CONTRACT FOR 2004 4TM OF JULY STREET DANCE. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks. I would like to go through this tonight, just to make sure that we have support from the commission what we do on this. Corey has talked to CBO already and pretty much has secured the date for 2004. July 3~. Basically what we would like to do is, for the Park and Rec Commission to recommend approval of the contract for the amount of $4,000. What the commission would do tonight is approve the contract, or recommend approval of the contract and then the monies would be taken out of the 2004 budget, and not the 2003 budget so that was a question that you may have had. Corey's worked it out with Hoffman Talent to get the contract approved and then those monies would come out of the 2004 budget. So it's staff's recommendation that the Park and Rec Commission recommend approval to the City 19 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Council for the contract for the CBO, July 3, 2004 from 7:00 to 11:00 at City Center Park, and that has been included within the recreation program budget, the 1600 budget for 2004. Franks: What did we pay for them last year? Ruegemer: I think it was $3,500. Franks: Okay. Any other questions? Great. Seeing none, is there a motion to approve staff's recommendation? Kelly: I make a motion to approve staff's recommendation. Franks: Is there a second? O'Shea: I second. Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Kelly moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend approval of the contract for CBO in the amount of $4,000 for July 3, 2004 from 7:00 to 11:00 p.m. at City Center Park. The cost of the entertainment has been included in Fund 1600 of the 2004 recreation program budget. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Franks: At some point we'll have to consider how old we're all getting and maybe look for somebody else but people love them. They just love them. Stolar: I think at some point though we have to consider, if they keep jumping it, that we might want to put it out to bid. See if that steadies their price. Hoffman: Good idea. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. Franks: Todd, you wanted to give us a quick talk about the budget. Do you want to include that now before we move into the administrative packet? Hoffman: Sure. What I'd like to do is respond to Commissioner Stolar's question. First we'll talk about, and I'll do this and then if there's other specifics, please let me know. The first one is, memorandum to the City Manager concerning the capital budget. This comes from the September commission meeting. Take a look at the bottom figures, and it specifies the Lake Ann Park playground replacement and Meadow Green playground replacement, the Lake Susan playground replacement, the Highway 41 trail connector hopefully to Longacres and the Bandimere Park Phase II for a total of $450,000. These items have been forwarded to both the City Manager and Bruce DeJong, the Finance Director and all the appropriate capital request sheets have been completed and the City Council will review this within the next 30 days. So that's the capital side. Any questions regarding that request? A side note, if you happen to be in the, taken a chance to go through the Vasserman neighborhood. Vasserman Ridge. That trail's completed, so now you can walk from Longacres to Vasserman Ridge, right out onto the frontage 20 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 road and all the way around the Pulte. There's some great connections there. So the final piece to make the circle is actually the Highway 41 trail connector. Kelly: I had a question about another trail. If you're at the apartments, if you're going north and you hit the apartments on 101. There's a trail that goes behind St. Hubert's all the way to Rice Marsh Lake. This year there was a new fork in it that goes off to the right and then it ends and there's a sign that says, that it's going to be completed sometime in the future. I'm just wondering what the future is for that. Is it next year or later this year? Hoffman: Oh no, it will be probably 3, 4, 5, 8 years before it would be completed. As 212 is constructed, access right-of-way which will be available for use for a variety of activities. Parks and open space. Trailways. Some of it will be turned back and sold by the State of Minnesota. Once all that activity starts to take place, we will actively solicit the acquisition of those necessary trail easements. Eden Prairie is doing the same and then we need to build that trail from the east on their side and the west on our side and then meet in the middle. So there are a large number of variables that we are, do not know the certain outcome of and so the date is highly flexible. Stolar: That's the part where we went and visited, right? Hoffman: Yep. I can tell you that the very next piece of trail which would go through the back of Tigua, or what they call the Rice Lake Manor Addition. Those easements are all in place. Those are large lot homes and those easements have been there, some of the longest easements in the city. Probably close to 30 years to allow that trail to traverse right on top of what is a sewer interceptor line that goes through those back yards. So that will be a shocker when. Franks: Especially since a couple of those homes are million dollar homes. Hoffman: And they've been them for 30 years. But everyone should be aware that that's going to be taking place. That's why we put these signs up. That's why we continue with the comprehensive planning. Franks: We talk about these playground structures, the wood playground structures as being unsafe. Do we have any information that indicates how unsafe they are? Hoffman: Currently working on a report in that regard to the City Council. I'll copy the commission on that. Franks: Oh okay. The only reason why I ask is, this sounds like, and what we've discussed, it sounds like a good plan. 1, 2, 3. Then I started to think, I mean if they're really unsafe, I mean unsafe, do we just need to shut them down? I mean take them all out and then replace them over a period of time. Hoffman: I'll address that in that report and we'll talk about it at that time. What we're looking at here is entanglements and entrapments and those are serious issues and depending on the quantity of those in each one of these circumstances, especially Councilman Ayotte is concerned and would like to see a more specific report regarding those issues as well. Franks: Okay. Hoffman: That will be done in the next 30 days. 21 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Franks: Great. That would not really change though. I mean if they all had to go, it really wouldn't change what you're recommending as far as replacing them. Hoffman: No. Franks: It'd be the same type of plan. Hoffman: Yeah, we have a 3 year plan already and when we drive forward with this to the City Manager, first thing he asked me was, I should be phasing these. This is going to be too much money to approve, and I said we already are phasing them. This is the first phase of 3 years so. And then the second item is. Franks: Do you need a recommendation on this tonight? Hoffman: No. There's no action necessary on these items. You've already made your recommendation. Franks: Okay. Hoffman: Commissioner Stolar referred to some of the articles that have been showing up in the paper. Just a copy of a power point presentation that was presented, as presented to City Council. If you go to the first pie chart. Total department budget expenditures, 1,573,442. It shows you the split out, break-up there. You flip the page to the bar chart, it shows even more dramatically where we spend our money. Personnel, contractual services and materials and supplies. Capital outlay being a very small percentage of our budget. If you look at the bar graphs, personnel goes up slightly to accommodate salary increases and medical insurance premium increases. Thus correspondingly the other two contractual services, materials and supplies need to go down to accommodate that because of the mandated zero percent increase from 2003 to 2004. Our administration. Revenues on approximately million five budget, we generate $421,500 in revenues. Rec programs. Jerry, Corey and Susan and Kara's areas. Well actually Jerry, Susan and Corey's area generate 50 percent of that and the Rec Center the other 40 percent, so again you flip quickly to the next page, the bar chart and it shows you again more dramatically. Rec programs and Rec Center is where we do our business and we always think of the recreation center as really our front door to our consumer. Our customer. That's where the majority of those transactions take place. Quickly go through the park and rec administration. Responsibilities of that office. Flip over to the table where it has major responsibilities, outcome and performance goals. We're just going to refer to the left hand colunm for you. Major responsibilities that provide administrative support, park commission, study groups, capital development and development review. And then budget and purchasing and our...program. Flip again to the Rec Center. 80 percent personnel. You go to their major responsibilities. Facility rentals, fitness programs, the rec programs, customer service. Lake Ann Park operations. You look at that pie chart, it changes dramatically because of the contractual services is 68 percent. That's the payment for the lifeguards. Personnel 17 percent. That's the operation, the concession stand. What do we do at Lake Ann? We operate a swirmning beach, picnic facilities, concessions and boat rentals, athletic fields. Park maintenance, our largest budget. Largest department, contains all of our city park sites, our play equipment. Something most people don't realize is that park maintenance is responsible for all the downtown streetscape maintenance and that is a disproportionate amount of money that is scheduled over into park maintenance and in many other communities you see that going to public works. 22 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Stolar: Is the library going to be included in here? How does the library fit? Hoffman: Library falls under the general government budget for the interior. The exterior would fall under park maintenance. Major responsibilities are downtown, our parks and our trail maintenance. Skating rinks, playgrounds. Like our senior center. Pie chart shows personnel and contractual services, mainly for entertainment. Trips. Services. What happens in our senior center? Volunteer staffing. Congregate dining and Meals on Wheels. Just an FYI. Both of these programs, especially the congregate dining in the center itself, they're in danger of being terminated, those services because of low usage right now so Meals on Wheels is still going pretty strong. This may change as the new center comes on line. The new facility comes on line. One day tours and extended tours. Day classes, special events, and then their publicity program. The last two, our rec programs and then self supporting programs. Major areas are our special events, our summer discovery playgrounds, skating rinks, the adaptive rec services. Again a side note here. The Reach program is also in danger of being cut as a county budget item. For Hennepin County so they may no longer be in existence too. Ruegemer: November 14th... Hoffman: So we may not have a contract provider...providing that service either on our own or with another contract provider. Flip to the last department, self supporting programs. Again contractual goes way up. It's to pay for all the instructors and the program adults for these programs and youth sports. Out of that area. What you're seeing on the final pages are, relates to the council's strategic plan. Mandates that each department identify 10 percent increase revenues for the combination of increased revenues and cuts on an annual basis. These are our proposals to the City Manager. As a staff raised the Rec Center punch card rates from $2.50 to $3.00 for residents and from $3.00 to $3.50 for non-residents. Potential impact there is that the perception of the Rec Center as a good value may decline. We could close customers. Potential revenue generation is $8,000 or above. Second item for new revenues is to establish non-resident rates for all recreation programs. Currently we have them on a portion of our programs, and the potential impact here is non-resident registrations could decline. Programs could be cancelled due to a lack of interest or because we may lose enough people to fill the class. Again potential revenue generation is at least $10,000. If you go into our cuts, proposed cut of $5,000 to eliminate goose removal and other professional services. Proposed cut of $1,000 to eliminate any outsourcing of fliers or brochure jobs. $9,000, reduction in subscription and memberships. Or excuse me, $900. $500 to reduce some office supplies. $8,000, you'd see a significant reduction in front desk coverage at the Rec Center, taking out seasonal wages at the Rec Center from 127 to 119,000. We reduce our the next two are actually being changed. If you take a look at concession stand staffing and concession supplies, that $6,600 is offset by revenue so we are changing these items at the council's request to a reduction in lifeguard hours. And I don't have that. Do we have that reduction? Three options for reduction in lifeguard hours at Lake Ann. Flip to the next page. We have $5,200 to eliminate one seasonal park labor. We did that last year. We're proposing elimination of another seasonal park laborer this year. Eliminating all of our fertilizer and weed controls, $16,500 to eliminate fertilizer in the downtown. And weed control, $3,900. Reduce our portable toilets in all of our parks by half, saving $10,000. Deferring park building maintenance to save $5,000. Defer any trail, park, street or parking lot maintenance, $35,000. This is the money that was used this year, if you've had the opportunity to see Lake Ann Park, it's only recently been completed. The trail between Greenwood Shores and Lake Ann, and then the trail over in Curry Farms Park. These are the dollars that were utilized to complete that work. We sent our crews in to go ahead and repair, pick up the old trail, prepare the base...and we pay a contractor through a bid process to come with the asphalt down to maintain our trail system on an annual basis. That's the money that goes with that use. $3,000 23 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 eliminate department and maintenance equipment at our maintenance area and miscellaneous equipment. Eliminate our senior Saturday night dinners and entertainment, $3,500. Discontinue some senior stamping classes and Chan-O-Liers music, $1,000. I spoke to the 12,600 and the 4,600 for elimination of warming house attendants and warming houses. We eliminate some special events programs including Easter Egg, Halloween, and Tree Lighting Ceremony to save $6,000. Brings you to the final page of total cuts of $128,000 of proposed cuts. Total proposed in revenues of $18,000 for a total savings of $146,000, or approximately 10 percent of all our non-self supporting operation and maintenance budgets. And this has been presented to the City Council. They have not reacted to any of this yet. That will take place in the later half of November, first part of December before we get any direction from any of the City Council or the City Manager. Kelly: So the Halloween Party isn't self supporting? It costs more than it brings in? Ruegemer: Yes. Hoffman: Were there any other questions that you had? Stolar: What is the status of this? This is recommendations. Is it 10 percent of required or saying be sure you're ready to identify those in case we need it? Hoffman: Correct. Stolar: This is the later? Okay. And then I guess I would, going back to something we talked about earlier where you approved the contract, you don't want to touch the 4~' of July celebration at all. That we want to keep absolutely clean. Hoffman: Staff's recommendation. Stolar: In general what role do you think the commission plays in helping you in some of these things in either lobbying to keep or helping you prioritize or anything along those lines, because we didn't see these cuts. Hoffman: They're proposed cuts .... perfectly appropriate to send up a general message to the council regarding these issues. I don't think it's the commission's role to start identifying specific items of reduction. It's more of a policy so if you feel these steps are not warranted, you can send that to the City Council. If you feel that you're on board with the rest of the departments in the city, send that message. If there's certain items that you do not want to see, I would start talking about those, but it's not the commission's role to start identifying specific items. Stolar: It's more of a philosophy though of, or concern, which I'm sure you share, that as you start nit picking things you may damage them versus wholesale cutting some things, which I see a little bit of both in here. Wholesale cutting some things to keep whole others so you know, an example. If you get rid of the warming houses, do we lose the value of having the rinks at all? Right. And then do you just get rid of the rinks, you know we just went through all this. So I'm just, any thoughts you have about how we can help this process, at future meetings let us know. I know it's a struggle for you and your team. Hoffman: The general direction from the council is that as we go through these cuts, they do not want to see a service delivery reduction, so if you think about it in those terms, they don't want to 24 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 see wholesale cuts of entire programs. They want staff, commissions, advisory groups to be more creative in how they deliver these services and to provide the same level of services at the same dollar amounts on an annual basis. So what they're doing here is attempting to keep these budgets flat because there are, you cannot, we have a 15 percent increase in our medical costs this year so those type of costs. Administration, we have huge increases in our administrative budgets to bring on the library. To bring on the library cleaning. Servicing of that so, what the council is doing is attempt to hold our citizen's taxes level, while still providing these increased services and attempting to be more innovative in how we provide the other services so we can reduce those costs. Stolar: Included in that would be increasing revenue part of the discussions, like Amy mentioned. Hoffman: Absolutely. A good example of that, City Center Park I estimated the true cost of maintaining that park will be $40,000 a year and we don't get a single penny in increased budget money to maintain it. So that'd be $40,000 worth of labor, materials, supplies, activities coming out of other areas in our community to maintain this park. And that will have an effect on how we do our business in other places, but it's spread out across 28 parks, 35 miles of trails and so we're confident we can accomplish those type of activities. Stolar: But as it relates to Amy's suggestion though, would we consider expediting our discussion of that so that we could maybe present that as an option. Or does City Council allow you to just talk about it as you go along and be creative? Hoffman: Talk about? Stolar: User fee discussion, yeah. Hoffman: Well, December I think is what we stated. I think it's for next year. Stolar: It is, and I'm saying that's fine. The City Council allows you to have the creative, this isn't like set in stone. We can always go back to them and say hey, we've got this idea. We're not going to do this here because we think we can generate revenue here. They're okay with that during the year. Okay, thanks. Hoffman: At least I hope so. Stolar: Well I think probably they'll welcome any revenue. The question is will you allow to take back the cut. Hoffman: They're receptive to certainly hearing those ideas, I know that for sure. Stolar: Okay, good. Franks: Because just with the numbers you put out here, like a $5 user fee for athletic participants alone we're looking at at least $30,000. I want to challenge, just for your own thinking, programmatically the idea of the, like the Easter Egg Candy Hunt, Halloween Party and Tree Lighting ceremony. That when we take a look at those types of programs that traditionally have not been self supporting, is there a way for them to become self supporting? And if the community is going to choose not to support them at the level that's required, then they've kind of made a choice about what kinds of programs. So for example like Halloween Party, do we cut 25 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 the entertainment, cut the level of candy and raise how much it costs to register? Having some understanding about what kind of participation you kd~ow we're looking at, I'm just wondering, is there a way for us with, to have a neutral impact as far as the city is concerned, in a sense pass that impact along to the actual users of these services and they can make a decision about if it's worth it or not for them to come. Hoffman: Sure. Franks: I just kind of bristle at, this kind of strikes me as something like what school districts have tried to do as far as scare tactics. I know that's not what your intent is but when, if people look at this kind of thing, they're going to say you know they're taking away the Halloween Party and they're taking away the tree lighting ceremony and it's like well, we may be able to look at this and say, well we don't need to remove these things but in this day and age, this is what it's going to cost and this is what we're going to get for it. Do you know? Hoffman: Sure. And then it becomes a consumer choice because as we talk about, there are other choices in the community. There was a free event at Byerly's this evening that was well attended by the community. An activity very similar to the event that we hold. Franks: Or do we partner with Byerly's and have them be a sponsor? Do you know what I mean? Hoffman: Sure. There's all sorts of ways to look at it. It's not our goal to eliminate programs. We also want to be careful...charging and at what point do you. Franks: And as far as the warming houses go, I mean with global warming, you know it might be a moot point anyway in a couple years so. And I know we're not picking on items but eliminate fertilizer and weed control in parks. Hoffman: You can only do it for so long. Franks: You can only do that for so long and then potentially what kind of damage have you done? Great, thanks for sharing this. Hoffman: Anything else on budget? Okay. Then the last item I have to share with the commission is that, I forwarded an email. Did you see that? On the progress of City Center Park. We have been disappointed with the response of L.S. Black. Their performance, or more specifically their lack of performance on the project so we've been very specific that they complete a majority of their work by November 14th or two actions will be initiated by the City. We will seek to collect full liquidated damages, which is somewhere around $30,000 to $40,000, which would be withheld from their contract payment, and then we would ask the City to terminate their contract and to complete the work under another contract in the spring. So they are, have assured us that they do not want that to happen and they want to complete the project and that's in their hands right now. They need to complete the irrigation. Complete the planting and complete the sodding in 14-16 days. Spizale: Todd, why is there such a problem with that? I mean do they just have too much going on or are they, it's just not an important job for them or? 26 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Hoffman: We don't know. They're simply not performing. For what reasons we don't, it's not our business to understand how they're running their business but it is our business to know that the choices they've made has impacted our project and our contract with them so. Spizale: So they really haven't given an excuse. Hoffman: Oh thousands. Spizale: Lots of excuses. Hoffman: Yeah. I don't want to hear excuses. I'm not interested in them. So that's the status of that program and I'd like to say that I'm confident but again we've heard too many excuses at this point so we're just simply at that stage in the contract. We hope they complete it. Franks: Great. I hope they do too. Have those trees planted. It's good to have trees for tree lighting ceremony. Hoffman: Otherwise we'll make one out of lights. Great big one. Ruegemer: We do have a back-up plan. Franks: The boulevard down 78th again or? Hoffman: Cut tree. Ruegemer: Two back-up plans. Franks: Cut tree again? Ruegemer: Donation of a tree. Hoffman: Remember we used to auger a hole and plunk one in? Franks: Yep. Auger a hole and plunk one in. Alright, well let's move on to the administrative packet. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: Just one. Boy, it seems like we pay a lot to remove these geese. Kelly: $110 per goose. Franks: Ooof. O'Shea: Where do they take them? Just to fly back. Where do they go? Hoffman: Where do they go? Which ones? They butcher the adults. In fact it's about $30 a goose by the time you take a look. 31 of them were butchered at $15 per bird. The others are mainly taken to Iowa and some other states. The young because if you transplant them, they'll imprint on that new location instead of coming back. In the early days of this program, they shipped them all and the adults brought all the young back to their location where they were 27 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 imprinted on. That's why you have to butcher the adults. Take the young somewhere else and they'll stay there. In the report, it is working. The program is working but it's a combination of the early metro goose hunts and this program. They shoot a lot more geese in the city than, on an annual basis. Of course that will end with the construction of Highway 212/312. The hunting zone will be eliminated so. Franks: You mean I won't be woken up at 5:00 in the morning all through the month of August? Hoffman: And you'll have more geese in the parks. Franks: Okay. Anything else on the administrative packet? Kelly: Yeah, this Chaska area Lacrosse Club. Are they associated with the high school? Is it a high school Lacrosse Club or is it? Ruegemer: Well right now it's not an official Minnesota State High School League event. They're at the club levels right now. Now it's my belief now that the programs are, the boys and the girls programs in 2004 are going to be recognized as a letter sport. So if that's the way it's progressing. It is catching on. Franks: Yeah, they're practicing out on Lyman. The one house. They've set up their own little field. Ruegemer: Does it have one goal? Franks: Two goals they have. Ruegemer: Okay. We had one stolen from one of our parks. Kelly: I know the Rec Center had a program this summer for I think 6 to 9 year olds and 10 to 12 years. ! made my son go. I think he liked it. I think it's a great sport. Franks: Well if there's nothing else, is there a motion to adjourn? Kelly moved, O'Shea seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 28