3g. Minutes 11
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
' REGULAR MEETING
APRIL 8, 1991
' Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. . The meeting was opened •
with the Pledge to the Flag.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Mason, Councilman Workman, Councilman
' Wing and Councilwoman Dimler
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Todd Gerhardt, Charles Folch, Paul Krauss, and
Roger Knutson
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to
' approve the agenda with the following additions: Paul Krauss wanted to discuss
under Administrative Presentations establishing a task force to assist staff in
choosing a consultant for the Surface Water Utility Program; Councilman Wing
wanted to set a breakfast meeting for the City Council goals review; and
Councilman Workman wanted to discuss the golf course committee. All voted in
favor of the agenda as amended and the motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
PROCLAMATION DECLARING "BUILDING SAFETY WEEK", APRIL 8-12, 1991.
Resolution #91-26: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the Proclamation declaring the week of April 8-12, 1991 as Building
Safety Week. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
' CONSENT AGENDA:
' Don Ashworth: Just a quick note. The handout that I had given to the City
Council represents three additional final closings that. we had missed and should
be added to that item.
Mayor Chmiel: Item (d).
Don Ashworth: So in approving that, recognize that those three would be a part
' of that. If that's alright .
Mayor Chmiel: Any questions regarding those transfers?
Councilman Workman: Don, can you explain those? What that's about?
Don Ashworth: The three I just handed out?
' Councilman Workman: In general.
' Don Ashworth: In general they represent capital. Most of those are capital .
construction accounts. There are monies left' in there or there may be minor
shortfalls. For example, Lake Ann we completed the construction that was a
grant from the State. About $220,000.00. I think the total project went to
$235,000.00. Most of the items were beyond our control. The Park Commission
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IICity Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
IIwas aware of that. This transfer take monies from the Park acquisition and
development fund and puts it into that capital project fund so it can be closed.
The same way with Lake Susan. Most of those that you had on the other list in
I the agenda fall under the same category. Others are right out of the budget
really would not need to be repeated but typically we do put those in so we have
one spot to look at for all transfers.
IMayor Chmiel: Okay, any other discussions? If not , can I have a motion for
items 1 (b), (c), (d), (e), ( f), (g), (i), and (k).
ICouncilwoman Dimler: I so move.
Councilman Workman: Second.
IICouncilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the following
consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
IIb. Approve Plans and Specifications for Utility Improvements to Chan Haven
Plaza Third Addition, Project 91-2.
IC. Accept Offer from MnDot for Permanent Easement Easement Necessary for
Highway 5 Upgrade.
Id. Resolution *91-27: Approve Year End Closings and Transfers.
e. Zoning Ordinance Amendments, Final Readings:
Ii) Definition of Structures
2) Definition of Accessory Structures
If. Conditional Use Permit for the Installation of a 70 square foot sign, 7910
Dakota Avenue, Sinclair Oil.
I g. Conditional Use Permit for a Restaurant, Located at Seven Forty-One Crossing
Center, Sang Cam Ky, Happy Gardens II.
k. Rosemount Purchase of Lot 1, Block 3, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 2nd
I Addition:
1) Rescind Conditions Against Original Plat
II2) Approve Restrictive Covenants
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
IJ. CITY COUNCIL MINUTES AND PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES:
Councilman Mason: Just on the City Council Minutes, on page 4. I'm quoted as
' saying about the, I'm a little concerned that we're letting people sell liquor .
to under aged children but yet they get arrested. There should be a don't
between the they and get. That's it. .
IIMayor Chmiel: Very good. Would you like to move that particular item?
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve the City Council
Minutes dated March 25, 1991 as amended and the Planning Commission Minutes
dated March 20, 1991 as presented. - All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
VISITORS PRESENTATIONS: None '
PUBLIC HEARING: HEARING AS A RESULT OF VIOLATIONS FOR SELLING LIQUOR TO MINORS,
MGM LIQUOR WAREHOUSE, BROOKS SUPERETTE AND HOLIDAY STATION STORES, APPROVAL OF
1991/92 LICENSES.
Public Present:
Name Address '
Todd Preuschl Holiday Station Stores
Richard Larson MGM Liquor Warehouse
Deputy Larry King Carver County Sheriff's Department
Mayor Chmiel: Anyone wishing to address this specific item at this time? Don?
Oon Ashworth: Would you like me to give an overview? At the last City Council
meeting the Council looked at pending on and off sale liquor licenses. As a
part of that process, staff does inform the City Council of any infractions that
had occurred during the past year. The three you had noted occurred on one
evening and in talking with the police and Sheriff's Department, they really
felt that we would not have this type of problem into the future. That they had
talked with the three parties and felt again that it would not be a problem.
The Council action was to allow staff to continue processing those applications
so there was nothing, no action taken by the City Council that would take away
from those licenses. However, the City Council did ask that the three parties
come before you and really talk about how or what they are doing to insure that
this type of incident would not occur into the future. The Council has a copy
of the letter that was sent to each of the three property owners and I see that
Mr. Larson is here but I'm not sure I know. Is anyone here from Brook's?
I/
Mayor Chmiel: I don't see anyone here. They were all informed and requested to
be here?
Don Ashworth: Yes. All three received, well in fact in most instances the
letter went to 2 or 3 individuals. The clerk or person who was involved with
the incident on that night. The owner, if local such as Mr. Larson and then the
company in cases like Brook's or Holiday.
Mayor Chmiel: Being we have two of the people here, I guess what we're really
looking to see is to have you come up here and tell us how you're going to try
to eliminate. Not try but eliminate the problems that existed and making sure
the people that are being sold either beer or liquor are really checked out
fully. It is a concern to the Council. We look at it from two different
standpoints.
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11 Todd Preuschl: Okay. In the past we are all trained to card everybody
regardless of age, within reason and that's been the strict guidelines by
' Holiday. They have a policy set regardless of who's working welling cigarettes
or alcohol beverages to minors, it won't be tolerated by the store. First time
is a 3 day suspension which our clerk did receive without pay. Second time is
immediate termination and prosecution under the full extent of the law. .She's a
very, well the person it happened to, she's working right now as a matter of
fact . She is one of my most trusted and valued employees and I'm sure this is
just an isolated incident. I haven't had any problems other than this one time
in the year that I've been manager at the store. In fact we've caught quite a
few people as far as forgers and thieves as far as we finally got ahold of the
condom thief and so forth. Also some other youngsters trying to get away with
switching beer from 12 packs of Coke to 12 packs of beer. Doing the old
switcharoo and we caught them. I think they're being prosecuted at this moment.
I'm not sure. But as far as I know, we've done all things possible as far as
our company guidelines are set in conjunction with the State guidelines too.
Mayor Chmiel: Are there specific requirements that you indicate to your
employees when they come on board?
rTodd Preuschl: Yes. I personally train every employee that walks through the
door now. They work with me for one week. Then they're cut free with
assistants. My assistant manager, I have two now thank God. But I've been
under staffed for about a year but it's not becoming fully staffed again. I had
some problems there but they got ironed out now. I haven't had any problems
since then. Our store's been running pretty well. Hopefully it looks nice for
the community and services everybody well. I hope so anyway.
Mayor Chmiel: I think that 's right. It does. The only thing is as I said. We
just , maybe the rest of the Council would like to say something.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'd just like to ask. Did I hear you say that you card
everybody within reason unless they're obviously?
Todd Preuschl: Yes. Everybody within reason.
1 Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, so why the slip up obviously here?
Todd Preuschl: I 'don't know. I wasn't there myself that particular evening. I
' was given a telephone call as soon as the incident occurred and I came out to
the station immediately. I'm only 5 minutes from the station so. I'm sure they
were extremely busy. I'm not even sure which night. It's been so long ago I
can't remember what night it actually happened. It could have been a shipment
night when we have boxes laying everywhere and one person in the security area
and she's just trying to get the people flowing out the door. That's a very
good possibility.
Councilwoman Dimler: But you plan to keep that policy?
' Todd Preuschl: Absolutely. That is a directive from our main office. It's
also my directive and I was really tee'd off at Pier because she didn't follow my
directive. I've told them all hundreds and hundreds of times so the next time
she's, it doesn't matter what happens. She may be a valued employee but she
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Y 9
next time if it ever happens again. That includes myself.
hit the road the ne PP self.9 Y
If it happens to myself, the same thing applies. So it doesn't matter who you •
are. ,
Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? If not, thank you. Appreciate it. Dick?
Richard Larson: Good evening. Richard Larson, MGM Liquor Warehouse, Chanhassen 1
and Waconia. A couple of points from my business' standpoint. The second thing
that I did in September of 1982. The first thing of course was receiving my
license from the City of Chanhassen. The second thing was to establish repoire I
with the Carver County Sheriff's Department , at that time Chief Jack Hendrickson
and arrange for the implementation of off duty deputies to work in our
establishment expressly for the purpose of checking ID's. This was set up on a
weekend only basis and to this day occurs that way unless we feel we have some
reason to bring them in on special duty basis. The reason I bring this point up
is I would like to stress to the Council and to the City of Chanhassen that our
number one priority since day one is to run a clean operation. We know we're a
regulated industry. We understand the implications of intentionally or
unintentionally mistakenly sell to an underaged, intoxicated or even for that
matter, belligerent individual. What we have been doing, we've been open now
for 9 1/2 years. This is our first chargeable offense. The individual in
question has been employed at the store part time. Full time during the day,
part time in the evenings, for a little over 5 years. He's a 34 year old
gentleman. I myself also was not there on the night of the incident. I did
talk to *the person in question and my obvious question of course to begin with
was, how come you didn't card him? The response from the individual was that
the person appeared old enough. I've never seen the individual in question. I
have no idea and I'm not using that as an excuse but the guy that did not card
him is a guy who is one of our most aggressive checkers. The Minnesota Licensed
Beverage Association is an industry association that we are a member of and have
been for the last 10 years. It is an organization that not only helps our
industry, legislatively, politically, but also allows individual owner/operators
the advantage of training, both preventive and well for that matter defensive.
It's kind of the nature of our business. And all of our employees are required
to attend what they call TM seminars which are Trainer Management seminars. Not
only in the identification of a potential underaged situation but also the
identification of intoxicated or otherwise influenced customers. It's something 1
that I've always done. I've always stressed. I am confident that my 13
employees here in Chanhassen, my 7 employees in my Waconia operation, I could
obviously parade them all in here and sing song in verse of the training that
they receive. It's an ongoing program. I'm an owner/operator. I'm in the
store. Some of those in this room are customers and I think that for those who
know me, they understand that what I say is how things go. I'm a hands on
operator. Always have been and I am here to answer any questions. I also have
Deputy Larry King with me for one reason and that is Deputy King has been the
scheduler of our security since 1984. Bob Bergman did it before that and I felt
that Larry, not representing Carver County Sheriff's Department but representing
myself in the 9 years of our relationship, understands how we run our operation.
How his deputies are instructed. What they're to do and he's here to answer
questions that may come up. I am here now to address any questions that you,
the members of the Council and the Mayor would have.
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you. Does anyone have any specific questions at
this time?
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I'll ask the same question. Do you card
everybody?
Richard Larson: No. It 's a very difficult question that's been since 1933 I
suppose. I don't know. What we do is we try to establish guidelines. There
are certain procedures that you follow. Obviously physical appearance.
' Actually the second question that comes after physical appearance, if there's a
question, you look at some of the things that people do. You look at whether or
not the person that's standing on the other side of the counter is looking at
you or looking down or to the side. You look and see, for some reason it 's very
significant what they're wearing both male and female. We've tried different
policies. We've tried the policy card everybody. It's a good policy but
there's a catch. If for example Councilwoman Dimler you're in line. I'd like
to say that you probably need to be carded but if we have a policy that
everybody needs to be carded and you're there to make a purchase. You don't
have your ID. What do we do? You're probably 21. I would say that you
probably are but the person that was in line behind Councilwoman Dimler is 21. I
sell you your goods and you go on your way and I ask that young man for an
identification. He says but I've got mine. Here it is but you sold to her and
she didn't have it. Why? It 's an unusual situation but you're discriminating.
So we've tried anyone that appears 30 and under. Okay? A 21 year old clerk's
opinion of who appears 30 and under is much different than a 38 year old so what
we have done is we use the training that's offered to us through our
organization. It 's a step by step procedure of looking at the customer.
Identifying the situation. Watch their body language and go from there.
Councilwoman Dimler: I was in a restaurant once and they had the cutest little
button and I don't think it offended anybody. It said, you've got the cutest
little baby face, may I see your ID and they card everybody and I don't mind it.
' Richard Larson: Again, those have been offered to our organization statewide
on many occasions. We've tried that. I don't know why certain people become
offended by asking for identification, be they 21 or 85 but we have found that
that's the case. Men more so than women. Sometimes a confrontation arises
between a clerk and a customer simply for asking the question when in fact the
answer is obvious. And until we figure out a way to solve that problem, I think
' we're going to have to stick with the guidelines that have been set up.
Actually Robert Schafer who is the drug and alcohol kind the of the guru at the
University of Minnesota is the one that has set this program up. Sharp
individual. They're studied all these, the good, the bad, the pluses, the
minuses and this is what we run with. We have to. Any suggestions that we
could receive from anybody, including the Council of course would be more than
welcomed as this is an issue that we've wrestled with for a number of years.
' It's a difficult issue to deal with.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Anyone else?
Councilman Wing: Did you want to call on Deputy King?
Mayor Chmiel: If he'd like, sure. Would you like to come up Larry?
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Larry King: He's already issued my disclaimer so I won't say anything more
about that . But any questions about scheduling or any of the duties we have
within MGM, I could probably answer those.
Councilman Wing: Can you at all represent a deputy that served Chanhassen for
decades with a question? -
Larry King: I was assigned to Chanhassen for about 12 years.
Councilman Wing: Yes sir. All I wanted to know, Larry we had 3 right in a row.
MGM, Brook's and Holiday all had this same violation occur in a short period of
time. You've been in the city a lot and worked with us a lot. Were these random
historic events or might we have a problem? Might there be a need to clamp down
in your opinion? I mean here's 1, 2, 3. They happen random but maybe these
things are going on constantly up until someone brought attention to it. Would
you consider these irrelevant events or something to be clamped down on and
watched much closer from this point on?
Larry King: Even one sale, I don't know if you could call it irrelevant but I
think in the world of realities, there's always been and probably will always be
some under aged purchase and consumption until the system's developed t,hat 's
full proof. As long as there's human beings involved in the sale, there will be
some mistakes over time. From an enforcement standpoint, I would be most
alarmed if we were getting consistent information or responsible individuals
reporting somebody regularly selling to individuals under aged. Or people of
age who were supplying. Those are leads that law enforcement, we follow up on
on a regular basis. But from the store's standpoint , we were hired by MGM to do
one thing and one thing only and that was to stay at the front of the door. We
don't look for shoplifters. Generally we don't help carry out unless the stock
guy's backed up but we're basically there for one purpose. It's to stay at the
front of the store and to watch for under aged purchasing or false
identification issues. That's what we've done to the best of our ability but to
this day I can't stand before you and tell you that I'm full proof either.
There may have been nights I've been on duty there and someone may have slipped
through that I thought was old enough too. Unfortunately it does occur. I
don't see it as a problem right now and I think spot checking certainly is a way
of keeping the industry on it's toes. I don't say that that's wrong. It's just
again a world of reality. It does happen unfortunately.
Councilman Wing: I think the Council's kind of called a red alert here and I'm
just saying, might we be able to call off the red alert a little bit? You're
not seeing a big flag waving?
Larry King: No. In the 12 years I've worked here, I never received any I
information that anybody was intentionally selling under age in the city. We
did have some other problems with on sale locations and we dealt with those
directly but never with any of the off sell. ,
Councilman Wing: I think really what you're saying is the intent is just not to
sell to an under aged individual. That 's really not the intent of the store.
Just to make another whatever it is for whatever they're buying. But we're so
strong into the standpoint of our drug task force within the city and all these
things all tie in together and somehow if we can keep kids out of this town from
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
buying, that 's what we really have to do. That 's the main intent of the Council
as well. We're not here to publically ridicule. That's not the intent. But we
do want to see that the checks are made on anyone that looks anywhere close or
those that you have question or sometimes you think maybe they're old but yet
maybe they should be checked. I think that's a very important thing for us to
have within the City of Chanhassen. Not just an easy spot to stop and pick it
up because that was indicated from the individual who said, I can go anywhere
and buy and I'm under age. And he said okay, let's see. Show me and they did.
' And this wasn't the only place. This wasn't the only town. It was all over.
Larry King: This has occurred in the past. In the 6 years, I've worked there 9
years and the 6 years I've been responsible for the scheduling, personally I've
' made dozens of arrests in the store for people with either false identification
or for already purchasing and so from an enforcement standpoint we do take a
very aggressive stand. Mr. Larson's also been very firm about anybody that's
belligerent or even with a bad attitude in the store and we've asked those
people to step out even though they're of age. The issue has been one of being
obnoxious or whatever to a clerk so from his standpoint he's very conservative
' on the entire issue. Whether it 's under age consumption or any type of behavior
that relates to alcohol or abusive substances. . We have dozens of arrest reports
documented. I don't think we'd have the time tonight to go through all the
statistics but personally I've arrested dozens and I know the other 8 officers
11 that have worked there, they've also been involved in the similar type of
arrests.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Councilman Mason: Just in general, I was one of the people that did some
rambling about this 2 weeks ago and I do appreciate the fact that it's, I was
just talking with a friend of mine who used to bartend and he was telling me how
difficult it is with that issue of knowing where the line is. I appreciate the
fact that you folks came in and talked about it. I think it's clear you guys
are trying to do what you can do. I recognize it 's a very difficult problem and
I appreciate you coming in tonight. Reinforcing what I've kind of felt about
your organization anyway. So thanks.
Mayor Chmiel: One other point I'd like to bring up is, I would like to see
Brook's Food Market, being they're not here this evening, I want to see them at
our next Council meeting.
Councilman Workman: I guess I hadn't heard it explained the way Rich explained
it and myself being I think the youngest person on the Council. Up until not
that long ago I was getting, if I went into a place where they didn't know me,
they would card me.
Councilwoman [limier: Rightfully so.
Mayor Chmiel: You've got a baby face is what she's saying.
' Councilman Workman: Yeah, I have the Larry King look. But you know, it's cute
and it's fun and you know when I'm really old like 45 I'll really appreciate
that but when I'm 25 and I'm 26 now it's not so cute anymore that I'm getting
11 carded and you want to get a little respect you know. I'm going to be 32 this
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
11
year and I still get the feeling if I go into a store where they don't know me
that they're going to ask me. And you know, I can remember after a hot summer
day after going into a store like that and somebody much younger than myself
telling me or presenting to me, I want to see your ID. I didn't start a fist
fight but it was like you know, I'm getting a little tired of this and you get
your eyre up a little bit . So I never really had it explained to me but I did
have it explained to me like this, because I asked the person. I said why are
you carding me? Do I look like I'm 18? They said it 's not that you look like
you're 18 if you're 28. It 's that there's a lot of 18 year olds that look like
they're 28. And so then I felt good and they got me the heck out of the store.
But I mean, because it did become a point with me because it was just happening
all too often. Did I go in with that dumb look on my face or whatever. What's
the problem? Am I looking her in the eye or something? But I do want to
reinforce the Brook's thing. I think we've had some cigarette sales problems
there also. Maybe there's some leadership problems down there. I don't know
what kind of action we can take to, May 1st is the effective date of the liquor
licenses probably but I would be all for strong demands, if in fact they're not
taking the Council serious in this matter. I do appreciate the gentlemen that
have come in and helped us to rectify the problem. '
Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else wishing to address this? This is a public
hearing as I mentioned. If hearing none, I'd like a motion to close the public
hearing. I
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to close the public hearing.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Mayor Chmiel: Any further discussions? -
Councilman Wing: I would move not approving the Brook's Superette license 1
pending their appearance before the City Council prior to May 1st.
Mayor Chmiel: With the approval of the MGM and Holiday? I
Councilman Wing: Yes. Approval of MGM and Holiday.
Don Ashworth: This, if I may Mr. Mayor. 1
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Don Ashworth: Following our last meeting I felt that the Council's intent was
to try to discuss with each of the owners and so this was not established as a
hearing under which you would deny a particular application. It was my belief
that if we ended up not having a response from the owners, you would still have
a 2 week period of time to our next meeting, to send a formal notice and at the
end of, or I should say at our next meeting if Brook's at that time would decide
not to attend again, you'd be in a position to deny that application but it
should not occur this evening.
Councilman Wing: That covers the intent of my motion. I withdraw that motion
then accordingly.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Anyone second that motion? I
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
11 Councilman Workman: I second that non motion.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright. I guess all we have to do is move right along. Is that
right Roger?
Roger Knutson: Yeah. Just vote on the motion. •
' Councilwoman Dimler: I'd just like to say without a motion here, just a couple
comments and I know now that the two applicants that did come in and they have
really explained their procedures and I think they are doing a good job and this
was just an isolated incident but I do think that because Brook's chose to
ignore it , I do think maybe it is in order because I remember when I made the
motion originally. We didn't even know if it was supposed to be a public hearing
or not but we did refer to legal counsel at that point and Roger recommended
that we have a public hearing. But it was my understanding at that point in
your memo Don that we could at that time deny or do revocation of a license
even. So I do think a motion is in order.
Mayor Chmiel: Can I address that just a little? The existing license is still
operating. We have not pulled that.
Councilwoman Dimler: That 's correct.
Mayor Chmiel: And what you're saying is if they are not here by the next
Council meeting that we then have that opportunity to withdraw that license from
Brook's?
I ..
Councilwoman Dimler: Well it was my understanding that, the motion that I made
was to pass them all except the three that we were going to.
Mayor Chmiel: And we did that last week. Or 2 weeks ago.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes. So Brook's right now is not on the list to be, you
know it was not passed with the consent agenda. And it was my understanding now
that we have to make a motion that we will approve Holiday and MGM but because
Brook's didn't appear, that we wouldn't .
Councilman Wing: Which is still actually just pending.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. But we're still giving them that opportunity to be present
at our next council meeting prior to the May 1 deadline?
Councilwoman Dimler: Oh sure. Absolutely. Yes.
Councilman Wing: With a letter I understand being sent?
Mayor Chmiel: That's correct . A letter will be sent requesting that they be
present at that meeting.
Councilwoman Dimler: I want to make absolutely sure that we did, that we were
going to move MGM and Holiday now because I don't think they were included.
Mayor Chmiel: We did move that already.
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Councilwoman Dimler: No, I think we withdrew those three. Last time I'm
talking about . I want to make sure that they are now on.
Mayor Chmiel: That's correct . ,
Councilwoman Dimler: But Brook's again is still on hold until they appear
before us.
Mayor Chmiel: I would say that that motion is correct .
Don Ashworth: Perhaps staff misunderstood the intent. It was our belief. It
takes the State 30-45 days to complete the licensing process so we initiate a
process here. The Council ends up approving a letter that would go to the
State. The licenses then come back to the City before they're actually given to
each of the owners. It was our assumption that you were allowing the processing
to continue. In other words, for staff to submit the entire list to the State
but with the understanding that we would meet with the three owners. We looked
at the first meeting, this one as an informal one in which we'd try to get input
from the owners and assuming we received cooperation, that the Council would
again allow those licenses to be issued. What I'm hearing the Council say is
that you do want to look at a potential revocation associated with Brook's. We
will now send Brook's a formal letter stating that since they did not attend the
informal session, that they need to be here 2 weeks from today as the Council
will consider on that evening formally revocating their license.
Mayor Chmiel: Either approving or revocating. •
Don Ashworth: Right . Do you agree Roger?
Roger- Knutson: Technically what you're doing is you're not approving a new
license for next year. Not revoking their current license. Just not giving
them a license for next year.
Mayor Chmiel: That 's correct. Now that there's clarification, I think a motion I
is in order.
Don Ashworth: I was also going to say, I see Brook's as a company store.
Potentially they simply haven't received this letter.
Mayor Chmiel: The manager has jurisdiction over that store and should have been
here.
Don Ashworth: I agree.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I would like that as a motion. Someone make the motion?
Councilman Wing: That would be the motion to approve MGM and Holiday?
Mayor Chmiel: Right.
Councilman Wing: And we're really putting on hold Brook's Superette prior to ,
their appearing before the Council prior to May 1st?
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Mayor Chmiel: Right .
Councilman Workman: Second.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the 1991/92 liquor
' licenses for MGM Liquor Warehouse and Holiday. . Brook's Superette will be put on
hold subject to appearing before the City Council prior to May 1, 1991. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
APPROVE CONTRACT AMENDMENT #1 FOR HNTB, AUDUBON ROAD SOUTH, PROJECT 89-18.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, this item was presented
before you at the last City Council meeting and was tabled pending further
information and a better explanation for this contract amendment and a
description of the remaining work to be completed. At my request the project
consultant engineer, Chet Harrison has provided two letters which are included
in your packets. The first letter describes, further describes the need for
these additional services and differentiates which portion of this contract
amendment has actually been performed in 1989 and what portion is for remaining
work to be completed this year. The other letter further spells out exactly the
remaining work on the project to be completed and the associated engineering
services. Chet is here tonight to address any questions that, further questions
that you may have on this matter.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, let me just ask one specific question. I tried to see you
' today but I missed you. The additional 75 hours. We go to another second
billing dated February 19th and under the Construction Engineering Services cost
to date. Estimated, project manager was 240 hours. We spent 205. The
estimate to complete is 60 for a total of that 265 hours. Now if we had the
estimate at 240, we only spent 205, shouldn't we have 35 hours plus that we
should have credit for taking that off to the 60? Maybe you can address that?
I was just doing a little simple arithmatic there and I was just.
Charles Folch: Maybe Chet would be better familiar to answer that question.
Chet Harrison: I hope I can and I apologize for not being at the last Council
meeting. I stated so in my letter that I submitted to you and I do apologize
for that because I like to be here to answer these kinds of questions when they
come up originally. What we did in the column of spent hours is actually what
' we have billed. So we have not billed you for 240. We have billed you for 205
so what I'm saying is that to complete I need 60 and in fact I'm asking for an
additional 25 hours to get the project completed over what it was originally
estimated. Does that answer your question?
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Estimated and completed. You're looking at 60 hours
additional?
Chet Harrison: Right. It's actually 25 addition hours from the original
estimate but we haven't spent, we haven't billed you for 240. We've billed you
for 205.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Very good. Now some of the other things that I was
looking. For the existing survey of what was done on the road, wasn't all of
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that done at that specific time? With the first coat going down and the survey
being taken completely with the road? Do you understand my question?
Chet Harrison: I'm not sure. We did do a complete survey of the roadway ,
initially during the initial construction period of time and I can tell you that
Mr. Warren and myself. See I didn't wind up being in charge of this project
until about September and if you'll notice one of the letters that you have here
is from Mr. Eriksen, my predecessor on this project . I realized early on when
I took responsibility for the project that we had grossly under estimated the
amount of time that it was going to take to survey and I found out since then
what happened is, as I stated in this last letter, that we did not really put
costs in there for construction staking which is basically monumenting the work
we did out there. What we did put in there was the dollars we assumed initially
just to put controls in so we could do that survey work. So Mr. Warren and I
were aware of that . I guess the reason that that procedure that we set up
through a letter from Mr. Warren stated that when you get near the contract
amount submit additional costs, if there are some. When you get towards the end
of the project which I did do last fall when I saw that we were going to exceed.
And I came up with about the $53,000.00 that we've spent to date on the project ,
not allowing for any new dollars for this coming spring. As it turns out , the
project not being completed, we need additional dollars for that . That 's what
you're seeing in that additional $12,000.00. I probably still didn't answer the
question you asked me but.
• Mayor Chmiel: No.
Chet Harrison: Maybe you can help clarify it for me a little bit . ,
' Mayor Chmiel: Okay. My position was is that originally when the road went in
it was surveyed. We knew exactly where it was going to be and what the width of
that road was also going to be. And I look at this to seeing as there is a
duplication as far as survey is required. The road is existing. It's there now
with the first mat on and waiting for the second one to come down. I guess that
is what I was trying to get at. Was whether or not that survey was really
needed but I think what you're saying is that the survey was done at the time
prior to your taking this on. Is that what you're saying?
Chet Harrison: No I'm not . Let me clarify what the surveying processes are and I
maybe that will help clarify things. We initially go out there and survey the
entire road, which we did under design. Which is a $39,000.00 fee or somewhere
in that range. In that we did a complete survey of the road identifying
everything that exists. In construction what we do is we go out and we stake
physically what's going to be rebuilt. In this particular case the northern
one-half, or approximately one-half of the roadway was totally reconstructed
with curb and gutter. That requires individual stakes for the contractor to go
off of to do that so there's construction staking that's done just for
construction. The southern half of the road, it was more intermittent and
places where we did sloping like in front of the Baranski's property. The
Bongard's property. The White's and so on down the road. Individual yards were
looked at . Special surveying was done for those and that's where the
construction surveying comes in over the original design survey. Does that, am
I getting?
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
11 Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Now I understand what you're saying.
Chet Harrison: And as we noted here, we have about another 80 hours which is
one week's worth of time of a survey crew. Two people to complete any surveying
that must be done to basically put together the record drawings and survey
things to make sure they were put in correctly. That 's what the remaining hours
are for.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Any additional questions?
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess somebody can answer this for me. What is the
normal procedure when an estimate comes in low? Are we responsible or do we
make them stick to that estimate? Are we responsible to make up the difference?
Don Ashworth: It all depends on the contract. As I understand this one, if the
hours were less, you would be billing us at those lower hours.
iChet Harrison: Yeah. I guess the best way to explain it is that for design we
did what we call a lump sum cost. We said we will do the design for around
$40,000.00 but construction is always an unknown and what we do is we sit down
before construction starts and say here's what we think has to be done. We meet
with Mr. Warren or whoever the City Engineer is and say this is what we think
it 's going to take to do the job and it 's an estimate only. This is a very
typical process because of the unknowns with construction. You can get into
things you don't know about . For example, we wound up adding a storm sewer to
this project that we initially were going to just run the water off the road out
1 into a cornfield and we decided we don't have an easement to do that. We'd
better add a storm sewer. Those are those unknown things that come up during
construction. That 's why a lot of times design is a lump sum cost because we
have our parameters and there was extra work done in design but you paid us on
an extra fee. I did all the easement documents for you to help Mr. Warren in
getting that part of it done. That was an additional fee outside the project. I
might add that, if you look at the total cost of all the engineering that was
done for this project and take out those dollars spent for special additional
things that we did, we did the project for construction and design for about 16:
and to me that 's low to moderate price. If you look at that. We did do those
' additional services and that raised it up closer to 20% total fee but those were
fees that would typically be held outside of a design cost , and believe me, your
contract with us is very well defined as to what our role is. What we're going
to do for those fees and there's no loose ends. That's when we come in and say
okay, you want us to do extra work, that's how it's set up and that's negotiated
on those special fees. Now most of the special extra work we did was on an
hourly basis with a not to exceed figure. But again, it wasn't design, I mean
this was design. It was not construction. Construction is typically left open
but yet you tell if things are going to look like it's going to go over and Mr.
Warren and I did do that during the process.
Councilwoman Dimler: Thank you.
' Mayor Chmiel: Any other. Hearing none, would someone like to make a motion to :
accept and approve the contract amendment. Any discussions? I think I
understand what has really happened here and.
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Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, I'll so move approval of Contract Amendment #1 for 11
Audubon Road South, Project 89-18.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I'll second that. Any discussion? 1
Councilwoman Dimler: I want to thank Mr. Harrison for coming in and explaining
that so well to us. ,
Councilman Wing: Then I guess I would like to thank the Mayor for asking the
question because there's. . .that I don't fully understand. ,
Resolution #91-28: Councilman Wing moved, Mayor Chmiel seconded to approve
Contract Amendment #1 with HNTB for the Audubon Road Improvement Project 89-18
establishing a revised ceiling of $65,600.00. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
AMENDMENT TO SITE PLAN APPROVAL, SIGNAGE FOR THE CHANHASSEN MEDICAL ARTS
BUILDING, 470 WEST 78TH STREET, ROBERT COPELAND.
Paul Krauss: This is the second time in the past year I suppose that you've had
some overview of signage on this building. Last year there was a clarification
on how many tenant signs were to be allowed and it was, as I recall, 5- per side.
There was also a monument sign that had been approved with the original proposal
but not yet built . A few months ago the applicant came to us with a proposal to
enlarge that monument sign such that it could accommodate another tenant space.
Also there was a minor change, an increase in size in a directory sign around
the back of the building. As staff we had some concerns about this for several
reasons. We believed it violated the original intent of the plan that had been
approved. We also had a concern that monument signage really should be building
oriented or site oriented and not have tenant spaces. We took that concern to
the Planning Commission. They echoed some of our sentiments and recommended
denial of the original plan. The Planning Commission though did outline some
suggestions for a compromise and it wasn't really well developed at the Planning
Commission meeting but the compromise was something along the lines that the
monument sign would remain in it's current size without any tenant signage and
that there would be additional signage bands placed on the building to
accommodate 1 or 2 additional tenants. I since had an opportunity to sit down
with the applicants along with the City Manager to discuss that compromise
further and the plan that you have tonight is an outgrowth of that. Basically
what it proposes to do is to exchange the middle sign band that has that 11 temporary, I think it's Chanhassen Dental with a telephone number on it for 3
tenant sign bands. The differences in these sign bands is that they would go
from 2 feet to 4 feet in height and under covenants that have been provided,
they would allow logos and color. All the rest of the signage on the building
would be required to be white. The one exception is the Goldstar Mortgage sign
which is obviously already gold but the covenants that have been drafted would
require that that be changed to white face consistent with the rest of the
building as soon as that tenant changes and that's fairly common practice when
you adopt covenants. There's a lot of money spent on these things and as long
as you achieve over time what you're trying to, that's pretty common. Staff
indicated that we were fairly comfortable with the concept. We proposed some ,
changes to the covenants themselves. We believe that there should be a
prohibition against the trailer mounted temporary signs and signs in the
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
window. The applicant did ask if the covenants could allow temporary P y leasing
signs. We thought that was reasonable. I'm sure that kind of a compromise can
easily be worked out . Before writing this up for the City Council however, we
' had our Planning Commission meeting last week and I informally ran this
compromised proposal in front of them. They agreed that the concept was one
that they supported but they had some different opinions about the colored
signage and the use of larger sign panels in the middle than had been previously
used on the building. They did not have an opportunity to take an official
position. It was not an official action item for them. What we've done is
we've written this up for the City Council basically with two alternative
options for you to consider. One would be approval of the sign package as
proposed with a couple of modifications to the covenants raised by staff. The
other would basically, you'd give your feedback to the Planning Commission and
have this sent back to them for a detailed review and possibly approval. It's
possible that the Planning Commission could be authorized to finally approve
this or they could come back through the process again for your final approval.
11 At this point I'm finding it rather difficult to give you detailed
recommendations on what to propose. We're working outside of the sign ordinance
on this one. This was a condition that was attached to the site plan approval
so it 's really that thing that takes precedence and not the sign ordinance which
has obvious problems that we've all talked about numerous times. Personally
I have some preferences with that but that 's what they devolve into. I mean
it 's tough to make a professional judgment on what looks good, what doesn't look
good and I would really rather defer those kinds of determinations up to you or
over to the Planning Commission or both of you. Planning judgments are.not
often times subjective. I like to think that there's some professional judgment
behind them and this is getting into an area where it's a little more difficult
to make that so basically I'd like to defer this subjective analysis. . . I'm
carrying forward the concerns of the Planning Commission but at this point those
are unofficial and I don't have Minutes of that meeting. I can just relate what
was spoken. With that I'll turn it back over to you Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay Paul. Thank you. Any discussion from Council?
Councilman Mason: Why the need to, the middle I believe it's signage area C.
The one in the middle that is proposed that logos will be allowed. Why does
' that have to go from 2 to 4 feet?
Paul Krauss: I guess Councilman Mason I'd like to defer that to the applicant ,
Bob Copeland who's here tonight.
Bob Copeland: I'm Bob Copeland. I'm one of the owners of the building and your
question was, why the need for the extra height there? If you can see on the
' drawing here, what we have currently approved is a sign panel that's about 2
feet high which allows one line of letters only. And we want to have the
ability to have two lines of letters. In other words, Chanhassen Dental for
example would be Chanhassen over the word Dental. And then this also allows for
various logos which won't fit on a 2 foot high sign.
Councilman Wing: But if we were to pick on American Family, their envelopes
11 have that logo in a one inch size and I could recognize it easily. So now
expand that envelope out to 2 feet and that 's not a small logo. I don't care,
I don't understand what you're saying here.
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Bob Copeland: Well, let me try it again. We've got, this is a drawing of the
existing situation. This is the area that we're talking about. The center. 11 Currently there is a 2 foot high by 24 feet wide sign panel that we can put a
sign within. That allows for one row of letters.
Councilman Wing: Or two rows of letters at half the size. I
Bob Copeland: Well, practically the letters would be too small to make it worth
while. So the idea is that, plus most logos would not fit .
Councilman Mason: You can make a logo fit any size you want it to. I mean I
think Dick's point is well taken. I mean there are logos an inch high. I mean
I see your point about visibility. Don't get me wrong there but I don't think
you can state that a logo won't fit on that.
Bob Copeland: Well, it depends on the logo. And what we want to do is have
some flexibility here and so we aren't going to use any more than required. We
want the ability to have three tenant names here and their logos and have two
lines, if necessary, if that tenant's name and logo requires it. We're still ,
way under the 15% allowed. We were at , with the previous situation we were at
like 29% and we go up to about 53% of the allowed. So even if we filled up the
whole 4 feet by 58 feet , which we aren't going to fill it all. Even if we did
fill it all up, we would still be less than 60% of the allowed 50% of the wall
area.
Mayor Chmiel: Bob, what is the distance between your upper story windows and
your lower story windows?
Bob Copeland: I don't know what it is right off hand but it's approximately,
there's a little panel above the lower windows and from the top of that panel to
the bottom of this window is approximately 6 feet.
Councilman Mason: It says it's 10 inches on either side of the 4 foot sign so
what is it? •
Mayor Chmiel: With what you're showing there, are you showing that according to
scale?
Bob Copeland: This is scale. What we have found is that, when we started the
project that a couple things turned out to be a little different than we had in
mind. One of them is that our average tenant is smaller than we had anticipated
so we have more tenants. And secondly, due to the marketplace or whatever,
these tenants are more interested in signage than we had anticipated. I think
that it's. . .tenants want signs. And in order to get tenants in the building, we
need more signage. That 's all there is to it. And we think that this center
area is available and this was something that the Planning Commission suggested
informally that we look at using to accommodate the needs of the tenants.
Mayor Chmiel: Paul, in one part of the memo that we have here, it indicated
that they objected to the increased size from 2 to 4 feet wide of the middle
sign panels. The Commission.
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1 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, that's accurate but that 's a reflection of comments
that they were making which were all over the board and that's my interpretation
of what they were saying. There was no official action on that.
11 Mayor Chmiel: Alright.
' Councilwoman Dimler: I had a question of Bob, Mr. . Mayor?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilwoman Dimler: Bob, would you tell me how many more possible tenants you
could have that would want a sign? Now much space you have available?
Bob Copeland: Well, right now today there are two spaces vacant. So if each of
those two tenants wanted signage, then we would have 3 here. We would have
Chanhassen Dental. They're already in but don't have a permanent sign. Then we
11 would have one sign for each of the two remaining tenants.
Councilwoman Dimler: And they'd all,be in the middle section there?
Bob Copeland: Those three would be in that middle section.
Councilwoman Dimler: Then you would be filled to capacity?
iBob Copeland: Then we'd be 100: full.
Mayor Chmiel: With those three you wouldn't have any other vacancies?
Bob Copeland: True.
1 Councilman Mason: There'd never be more than three logos up there at one time?
Bob Copeland: Not if you adopt what is in the sign covenants.
1 Councilwoman Dimler: I have a question on the back of the building too. Are
you asking for the same thing on the back?
IIBob Copeland: We're not asking for any change on the back of the building with
the exception of, I think our directory sign that we submitted is 6 inches
higher than what was previously approved and I don't know, I don't want to speak
for Paul but I think they're willing to say that's fine.
Paul Krauss: Yes, that was supported by the Planning Commission.
IICouncilman Mason: I guess I would hate, we have this staff recommendation A
that we can go ahead and approve it or I'd just as soon this went back to the
Planning Commission I think. I have some feelings about it but I think they've
been behind this the whole way and I think they should have some more input on
it.
1 Councilman Wing: Mayor, could I attempt a new guy motion because I've been
sitting through the Planning Commission meetings and with due respect to Mr.
Copeland, his rights and the business rights and the City's rights, I'd like to
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
move recommendation of B which would allow, which would approve their revised
signage but return it to the Planning Commission. But I would like to add to
that . That the Council make special note that that was a landmark gateway
building. The building has a very narrow street setback. . Somewhat negating
high visibility needs and the Council requests careful review of the 4 foot sign
request prior to approval. And I'-d be happy to move with whatever they decide
at that time.
Councilwoman Dimler: Just for clarification. Do you want it to come back to
Council for final approval?
Councilman Wing: In my own opinion, no. I think it's gone so far now, I think
they could deal with it . They need direction. We're saying we are approving
this. The only debate is carefully look at this building before you allow the 4
feet . That's all. The only restriction might be that they didn't go along with
the 4 foot .
Mayor Chmiel: Well, can I just throw something in? I would like the Planning
Commission to do this and I go along with staff recommendation B. I would still
think we should want to see what the finalized thought is and have it come back
to Council.
Councilman Wing: Could I leave that motion intact then with my comments about
the gateway building, . . .narrow setback. Requesting a review of the 4 foot
request and that their final findings come to Council?
Mayor Chmiel: Right. I
Councilwoman Dimler: I'll second that.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and second. Any further discussion? I
Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Don Ashworth: Just a point of clarification. I know the timing is important I
for the applicant. I think that the process that Paul has laid out narrowly
sets forth the signage package, etc. . Going back to the Planning Commission,
staff would kind of see that as, so they would be working out the details. In
your motion is there a way in which that action could become I guess the rule
you might say for this applicant and the notification back to Council simply be
just that. More of a notification rather than again one more approval level.
We're going to add about a month to this is what I'm afraid of.
Bob Copeland: If your comments on our behalf, I appreciate that but we'd just
as soon not have the Planning Commission have the final say. Even if it means a
delay.
Don Ashworth: Alright. So a month? ,
Bob Copeland: It's not good but we don't want the Commission to have the final
say. ,
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ICity Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
IIMayor Chmiel: One of the additional things too and I like the other portion of
it as well. To prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage.
I think that too should probably be entailed with that particular motion. What
II I looked at was what Paul had in here to prohibit window and exterior ground
mounted temporary signage. That would be filed and permanently recorded against
the property. We don't need that but I think if we had that.
11 Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, two things. First in the interest of expediting this,
if Mr. Copeland is available, we'll roll this over to next week's Planning
II Commission meeting. I mean everybody's familiar with this. It 's not that
difficult to get it back on.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, why don't we do that .
IIPaul Krauss: The second thing is, besides the size of the sign, the other thing
the Planning Commission talked about was the introduction of color in the middle
I here. If the City Council had any direction to the Planning Commission on your
sense of that, that might also be useful.
II Councilman Wing: If we're approving the request and the request has color on
this one. And Paul, this is in due respect to the sign ordinance which exists
but maybe doesn't really exist yet so I don't think we can draw those lines at
this point.
IICouncilwoman Dimler: My comments on logos. I think that they should be allowed
because they do identify a business and we don't want to stop anyone from doing
II business in this town. As far as how big they have to be, I'm not sure if I
agree with the 4 feet.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? Would you accept that friendly
IIamendment to prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage?
Councilman Wing: Absolutely.
IIMayor Chmiel: Would the second, friendly amendment?
ICouncilwoman Dimler: Uh-huh.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
IICouncilman Mason: Could I hear the motion just one more time?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
ICouncilman Wing: The motion is to take staff recommendation B with concern for
the building's gateway position and appearance, it's narrow setback and a
careful review of the 4 foot sign prior to approval. And we added the friendly
amendment to prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage.
Councilman Mason: Thank you. .
rCouncilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve the revised
signage concept for the Medical Arts Building as outlined in the attached
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
documents with concern for the building's gateway position and appearance, it's
narrow setback and a careful review of the 4 foot sign prior to approval. Also,
subject to modifications of the covenants to prohibit window and exterior ground
mounted temporary signage. All voted in favor with Councilman Workman
abstaining and the motion carried.
ACCEPT FEASIBILITY STUDY FOR IMPROVEMENTS TO WEST 79TH STREET EAST OF HIGHWAY ,
101; CALL PUBLIC HEARING, PROJECT 91-8.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. In your packets you have a ,
feasibility study report which is completed for improvements to 79th Street east
of Great Plains Blvd. . The improvements include a bituminous overlay, concrete
curb and gutter, which will improve the street's serviceability and extend it's
life. The drainage improvements consistent with storm sewer. Street lighting
and also landscaping along the north and south boulevard areas. The estimated
total project cost is $75,353.00. And from an engineering standpoint the
project is considered feasible. The project cost is proposed to be financed
through special assessments to benefitting properties. Those benefitting
properties are all of Lot 2 and portions of Lot 1 and 3 of the proposed Gateway
First Addition. Now the method for the assessment is based on a front foot I
cost . For the street improvement that turns out to be $177.39 per front foot
and the appropriate storm sewer benefit has been prorated between Lots 2 and 3
and the associated costs on that are $150.48 per front foot. So the total
project cost assessments are as follows: Lot 1, $13,911.11; Lot 2, $39,822.44;
and Lot 3, $21,619.45. At this time I request that the Council receive this
feasibilty report and call a public hearing for the April 22nd City Council
meeting.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you. Anyone wishing to address that?
Councilman Mason: Will there be someone here from Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings
that night?
Charles Folch: I believe Scott Harri in fact was going to try and be here .
tonight but he will be there on the 22nd.
Councilman Mason: People are going to laugh but I would like to know how come I
they always do these things and they don't run them back to back? There's
always the blank paper. It's a minor issue.
Mayor Chmiel: Half a tree. I
Councilman Mason: That 's right. Every little bit. Thank you. i
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Can I have a motion?
Councilman Mason: I'll make a motion to accept the feasibility study to 1
improvements for West 79th Street, Project 91-8 and to call a public hearing.
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
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Resolution $91-29: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to
accept the feasibility study for the proposed street and drainage improvements
to West 79th Street, Project 91-8, and that a public hearing on this feasibility
study be called for the April 22, 1991 City Council meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously.
PRESENTATION OF THE EASTERN CARVER COUNTY TRANSPORTATION STUDY, ROGER GUSTAFSON,
COUNTY ENGINEER AND LARRY DALLAM, HNTB.
Paul Krauss: I'm sure you will recall that we've worked, Gary Warren before me
and then myself with Gary, on the Eastern Carver County Transportation Study. It
was a locally sponsored and directed effort to get a handle on our
transportation needs, which obviously are a very rapidly growing part of the
County. It was particularly needed too because I think as we've seen from the
past, the Metro Council projections for this area have never caught up with the
area. It didn't only apply to population in households. It also applies to the
transportation modeling effort to a large extent. In fact, development in the
entire southwestern suburban area and suburban areas in general aren't reflected
by the Metro Council's transportation modeling effort too well at all and
they're in the process of doing a complete new origin and destination study.
Why do people travel? Basically the modeling effort that we have now and Larry
can get into this a little bit more if need be, is based on everybody living in
the suburbs and working in Minneapolis. Well that obviously doesn't work
anymore. Travel behavior has changed quite a bit, except for the Mayor. Well
we've basically adopted this study by way of the fact that it's incorporated
into our Comprehensive Plan. We use this as the basis for our transportation
section along with a report prepared by Southwest Metro Transit. There was a
meeting held around Christmas time, an informational meeting that fell on a
night that we had a Council meeting so none of us could be there and I had meant
to schedule Roger and Larry to come to you directly and give you an overview of
this study and respond to some of your questions. This was the first time we
actually were able to do this. I understand Chaska had a meeting like this a
month or two ago and it's a good opportunity for them to talk. I should also
11 point out too that we not only used this information in our comprehensive plan,
but we've used it to review two plats so far in terms of what our expectations
should be for right-of-way requirements. We've also used it with the downtown
transportation study for Strgar-Roscoe. They're using this in their, employing
this in their modeling efforts so that it accurately reflects the area. With
that I think Roger, did you want to give some introductory comments? Roger's
wearing a suit and tie, so I guess he must think you're pretty important.
Mayor Chmiel: I'm thoroughly impressed.
Roger Gustafson: We asked Paul how we should dress tonight. He said he wore a
suit so we came with sports coats. Thank you Mr. Mayor and members of the
Council for taking some time on your agenda to converse with us about this
study. Paul has done an excellent job giving you some preview of what we want
to talk to you tonight about. I guess I would like to just read the mission
statement that was developed for this study as an introduction to it. That
statement basically applies to not only the study but I think to transportation
in the future as we go forward in the County. The statement is cooperatively
and collectively provide an adequate street and highway system to serve the
projected population and employment growth in Carver County. With that mission
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statement in place, I really do have to compliment the two disciplines, planning
and engineering that worked on this study. In particular I want to thank the
efforts of the communities that participated because they basically brought '
forth data that was really needed to develop traffic projections in the study.
Now that data was actually pinpointing the population and employment was
expected to be in the year 2010 in eastern Carver County. And from those
numbers we developed projection growths as far as traffic onto various corridors
of a base system and again to recognize the types of improvements that would be
necessary over that period of time. And those improvements in the study are
identified both as capacity improvements and safety improvements. Capacity
improvements are especially identified in the report to give us a real look at
where we think 2 lane corridors will have to be expanded to 4 lane corridors and
where corridors will have to be built where none exist today. Safety basically
identifies those concerns that we have relative to shoulder widths, curves,
speed limits, traffic control such as stop signs or signals. Those types of
things that need to be addressed as traffic increases in the county. One thing
I really want to mention is that we really look at completion of this study as
being a spring board to several more decisions that are in front of us. Very
important ones, the ones you're working through now that are included in your
comprehensive plans are very critical. I guess this study was initiated after
conversation with all the administrators of the communities. . .involved to
attempt to bring back consistency in our comprehensive plans. It was there when
they were developed 15 years ago or so but in time everything begins to change
and we tried to overlay comprehensive plans of the County and the cities. We
didn't get a good view of what everyone was thinking and it made it very
difficult to do traffic planning because what the County looked at was a
corridor for the future, maybe wasn't consistent with one of the cities. And so
it made it very difficult for us to look at a 10 year program which would
include building a roadway that was obviously not in the comprehensive plan of
the communities that maybe would be impacted. It also was becoming more
inconsistent as far as functional assignment to the corridors. We looked at
several corridors that had functional classifications that from local up to
collector up to minor arterial. That makes it very confusing as far as 11 understanding what actually should be built. So we hope that we're moving
closer to having consistency and I think after everyone works through their
comprehensive plans, there will maybe be a few differences but I think the
magnitude of those differences will be greatly decreased. Once that's
accomplished of course we're going to have to look at some jurisdictional
problems, potentially where some think that a city street should be a county
road. Maybe a county road should be a trunk highway and maybe a trunk highway
should be a city street. Those types of things need to be addressed. System
designations. What should be a federal aid urban corridor. What should be a
county state aid highway corridor. What should be MSAS. Moving -forward on
this, cities that are involved. . .state initiated as far as revising their
systems and requesting mileage be added and also changes taking place. It's
unfortunate that you can't just stop time and get everything in place and then
say start the clock again but we are running a complicated business where some
of those things occur out of what we call ideal sequence. The other thing that
Paul mentioned that is in the future but also happening now is the corridor
preservation because of the definition of the function of these corridors, comes
the need to preserve land as it's being developed. Or actually maybe
constructing a first phase of what would be an ultimate roadway. Something as
we're seeing happen on Powers Blvd. or CR 17 south of TH 5 which it's
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development is happening. We're seeing it begin to move towards 4 lane type of
facility rather than a 2 lane and with the cooperation between the County and
the City and the developers in that area over the last couple of years, we were
able to at least move some earth into place. Some soils into place for that
eventual expansion of that road corridor. Then we have to look at of course
funding strategies and actual improvements that will go forward. To accomplish
that I am very hopeful that the Transportation Technical Committee that worked
at putting together this first technical report will stay as an active body and
will be able to furnish the cities and the counties with some valueable
professional opinion as to each of these topics that I have mentioned. I guess
a group that can really be of assistance to elected people that serve the
eastern area of the County. With that I would like to introduce Larry Dallam.
Larry Dallam is the Principle Transportation and Research Planner for the firm
of Howard, Needles, Tammen and Bergendorf and that is the firm that has been
preparing the Trunk Highway 212 Environmental Impact Statement. This study was
made economically feasible because of that work on 212. It literally was a
refinement of the work that went into that Environmental Impact Statement as far
as looking at traffic projections. Now Larry has 36 years of experience in the
transportation field. 15 years in highway and bridge engineering and 21 years
of transportation planning. Larry received his Doctorate in 1966 and during his
years of civil engineering work has been a professor at the University of
Missouri for 13 years and has served as the Director of Transportation Planning
for the Twin Cities Metropolitan Council for 11 of those 36 years. He has
several national publications and has served on many local and national
technical committees so we were pleased to have someone of Larry's experience
and knowledge be able to greatly assist the technical committee as we asked
questions and attempted to understand a very complex subject such as projecting
traffic 20 years from now based on what we know about traffic today. And those
numbers, as you'll understand when Larry talks to you, become very large
reflecting the future employment tripling and future population doubling in that
20 year period of time. So with that I'd like to introduce Dr. Dallam.
Larry Dallam: Thank you. Does the. . .if I stand over here? As both Paul and
Roger mentioned, part of the impetus for this study came from the 212 EIS and
some of the local impacts from the traffic forecasts of that exercise and also I
think a lack of north/south continuity in the area and east/west sort of depend
upon TH 41 and TH 5, and to a minor extent 212. So that was an impetus and also
as Roger mentioned, the fact that you had inconsistency particularly in your
Comp Plan about roadway designations. Take Pioneer Trail for example. Chaska
has it as a minor arterial. Chanhassen as a collector and Carver County local
street. And then Eden Prairie had it as something else. But the right-of-way
requirements as well as speed limits and .number of lanes and so forth, varies
dramatically as you go from a local street. One would allow access to every
driveway and the other would prohibit it so both in terms of mobility and in
terms of access, there was obviously an inconsistency that needed to be
addressed. Lyman Boulevard was another example where Chaska and Carver County
had it as a minor arterial and Chanhassen as a collector. I want to begin sort
of with the demographic forecast because the accuracy of the traffic forecast is
dependent upon the social economic input. How accurate that is. And this gives
' you the population of employment. In the study area, if you add up all the
Metro Council estimates of population in the eastern part of Carver County,
about 35,000 people and that is expected to be 61,300 based on forecasts. Now
as Paul mentioned, the Metro Council has been hesitant to acknowledge the
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11
rapidity of roads in the suburban fringe of the metropolitan area. Of course
part of that . . . ;
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion. ) •
Larry Dallam: . . . For Chaska they'had 9,300 and used 11,000. So the traffic •
volumes that result from our analysis would be higher than what's in the 212 EIS
by about 20% to 25%, depending on the roadway. In the 1990 census that estimate
of almost 35,000 actually turned out in 1990 to be about 36,000 and the largest
growth between 1989 and 1990 was in Chanhassen where you went to 11,700 instead
of the 10,500. So about 10% of the growth occurred between 1989 and 1990. Well
almost all the growth occurred in Chanhassen but you had about a 10% growth just
in that one year. Now what we did with the population was allocate it to
traffic analysis zones so what we did was in the study area, we started out with
the Metropolitan Council's zones that are in the regional model of which in this
area there were 13. 13 Metropolitan Council zones. For the 212 EIS we
subdivided those into 44 but for this study we put that 13 and made 113 and then
because in the 212 EIS there was more concern, the emphasis was more on the
regional system and the minor arterials, the major minor arterials like 41 and 5
and some of those. TH 7 but since we were interested down to the collector
level so we needed to know the traffic that would be coming out of those to more
places on the local system and this is where your staff played such a vital
role. They came up with, for each of those zones, what the population of
employment would be by the loading point from the center of the zone to each of
those roadways. And knowing where the growth was likely to occur and what
percentage of it would load onto Lake Lucy Road versus Pleasant View and so
forth so that was critical and I think even though we started 3 years ago.
II remember the meeting with Don was there negotiating that contract. A lot of
the time was spent in coordination on the input which I am a firm believer in.
I mean the more time you spend in the beginning, the better the results are at
the end and you don't come back and say, well I don't like that and we should
have spent more time where people have a tendency to rush to solve the problem
before they really. . . So that was very helpful. Once we had done that, we
determined what the base system would need to be to accommodate that proposed
development and this graphic indicates that. Where the orange line, the wider
is a metropolitan highway system. TH 7 and 212 and the red lines are minor
arterials and the blue collectors. Now we've shown here a new TH 41 crossing at
the Minnesota River but that was not included in the model because that was
after the year 2010. If it happens, it will happen at that point in time. But
what was included was. . .so if you travel from western or southwestern Minnesota,
those opportunities to cross the river existed in the model.
Krauss: If I could add to that point too. Here's where the coordination took
place between the Comprehensive Plan and the model. In the lighter blue color
is where you see the collector roads. The collector road plan in Chanhassen is
what we developed for our comprehensive plan. For example there's 2 collector
connections between Galpin and TH 41. There's the new frontage roads that are
being proposed to be extended out parallel to TH 5. All those were figured into
the model because of how we were able to interrelate on this.
Larry Dallam: Yes. So the network that we assigned the traffic to was not the
existing network of what is anticipated in the future. I might just point out
that , very quickly in terms of classification. As you know the Metropolitan I
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
11 Highway system, those roadways are intended to serve trips from out of state and
region wide. Long trips. . . Whereas the minor arterials simply is from one city
to another, a county level highway. There again the emphasis is on mobility.
1 . . .and provide access to major development generators such as shopping centers,
office and things like that. . . And then the collector as you step down is more
from one neighborhood to another within the city. We have two types of
collectors. One that emphasises mobility, that is movement of traffic and the
other is access. So given this network, then we assign the socioeconomic
forecast and we did two types of forecasts. We did what was called an all or
nothing where you assume that this network is infinitely large to accommodate
whatever travel might desire to use it . But we didn't take in the number of
lanes or anything like that . So we just basically trips originated at Point A
and they're going to Point B. What is the quickest, the shortest time path to
get there? So therefore it represents the demand in my view. This would be the
demand for travel, assuming that the system was capable of handling it. Now
I've circled some numbers. One of them which is kind of, might be a little
disturbing is on TN 5 not far from this point, just east of Market Blvd. . This
indicates a forecast of 66,000 whereas in 1988 it had around 9,000, in that
ballpark. That 's a 7 fold increase. On TH 101, 23,600. Lyman Blvd. , almost
20,000. TH 41 it gets up to around 19,000. 26,000 just south of TH 212. Even
over west of Victoria there's around 16,000 whereas today there's in the
ballpark of 7,300. So traffic volumes sort of throughout the area were doubling
and tripling but that's because it 's presumed the population and employment are
11 going to be doubling, tripling or more. So this would be, as I mentioned, the
demand for travel. Then we did another forecast which we call a capacity
restraint . That is we restrain the system that we have in there. The
characteristics of the road. The number of lanes. Speed and so forth. So when
the first . . .in the model puts 66,000 on TH 5 and looks at it's ability to handle
it , we assumed it be 4 lanes at this point in the future. It says well it can't
handle it so then it looks for alternate paths so it's diverted from TH 5 to
someplace else. Integrating until you reach equilibrium. So that 66,000 ends
up at 51,600 but it still may not be the best level of service but then other
roads have deteriorated or have gathered the traffic so it's spread out you
might say. So like on TH 41, it went from almost 26,000 down to a little less
than 16,000 because there's no way 2 lanes can handle 26,000. So the way I look
at it, we kind of have an upper and a lower bound so we have the demand for
traffic that's up here and then here's it's ability. What it tells you is that
if you make the improvements that are recommended in this study, then the
traffic is going to tend more towards the all or nothing because then it's
ability to handle it improves and the traffic, they have that sixth sense. When
you put a lane on, even though you don't announce it in the paper, the word gets
out. There they are. Now if we could focus maybe more on the city of
Chanhassen. To go from more the global county view to city. So here's 212.
This is the southern part of the city. So like on Lyman Blvd. and Pioneer
Trail, I've circled some of these. Bluff Creek Blvd. You see these small
numbers which are reasonable I think given the type of development and traffic
that you would expect. Again as we look at what happens when we look at it's
capability of handling it, will that 400 on Bluff Creek go to 1,400 and the
4,000 on Pioneer Trail goes to 10,000. Lyman goes from 1,400 to 9,400 and you
can see that there are problems. So this becomes the basis for some of the
' recommendations that are made later on in the study. Then if we look at the
northern half and again compare the all or nothing with the capacity restrained.
Like Pleasant View, 500. I mean this is more of a residential collector and
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Like Pleasant View, 500. I mean this is more of a residential collector and
Lake Lucy. That 500 becomes 1,900 so what it's saying is you have traffic you
have today and you will have in the future traffic on the Lake Lucy Roads and
the Pleasant Views don't belong there. My view is that, from the Planning point
of view, the only traffic that should be on this collector are those trips that
either have business in the area served by that collector. Origins or
destinations but traffic that's going through should be on the minor arterials
because they're roadways intended to serve them but not on what we call the
Class II collector. That should only serve the local area. So what you'll get
is people upset because there's too much traffic. I
Paul Krauss: Pleasant View's an interesting case in point and we've confronted
some of this with the Troendle Addition and questions as to whether or not we
really needed that 7 feet. Those kinds of things. Right now, today. Well as
of last year I believe there were some counts taken just southwest of Christmas
Lake on Pleasant View where that. 2,300 is. Right over here. We counted up to
1,000 cars a day there right now. What you're seeing though is, the capacity
restraint model is probably more accurate than the all or nothing model for
Pleasant View Road because (a), Pleasant View Road isn't really going to be
improved in any substantive way but more importantly, TH 7 probably isn't either
and that's the other east/west route through there and then if you don't want to
take that east/west, you've got to drop all the way down into downtown
Chanhassen and that 's got obviously limitations. So traffic is seeking the
easiest and most expediate route to get from Point A to Point B. Unfortunately,
in this instance, Pleasant View is it. There just is no alternative. And
that 's why we've been saying in that particular case, no matter what we do to
discourage it, unless you chop it off, people are going to want to get through
and that we'll probably have to make at least some safety related improvements
to that . We don't want to encourage it to be a major thoroughfare but you still
have to recognize that it's going to be used and people are going to be walking
on it and things might have to be done. So that's one of the areas that this
study is being used and. . .how this is brought to bear in planning issues that
you've seen.
Larry Dallam: Now the model does have the capability, if the City were
interested, well where are these trips coming from? We can do what is called a
selective link. You can take one link out of the network and find out where I
they're coming from and where they're going. . .but I should point out as we say
in the report, that the results, the volumes and so forth are, we think, an
excellent tool for planning but not for design. You can't design an
intersection based upon these because we don't have turning movements and all
this stuff so it wasn't intended to go into that level. So it doesn't get you
off the hook for having to use another consultant to design the intersections.
So looking at the forecast and the base system. We've shown on this graphic
first in the solid black line all roadways that are committed to be constructed
to 4 lanes. TH 5 is committed out to CR 17. 212 is committed, well certainly
not all the way but there's still some question marks although we think we've
resolved those with the Metropolitan Council but basically that's committed.
And our understanding is that TH 101 in Chanhassen is committed. So that leaves
what's needed is TH 41 upgraded to 4 lanes. TH 5 from CR 17 really all the way
to Norwood/Young America. . .4 lanes installation. Certainly throughout the
eastern part of Carver County. County Road 17 will need to be 4 lanes. Lyman
Blvd. east of TH 41 and is this Minnewashta?
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Paul Krauss: No. and that's a case in point to point out. I think that was,
right now our Council is looking at an upgrade to Minnewashta and there were
some questions about the volumes of traffic that were being projected I believe
in the consultant 's report that's working on the feasibility study there. And I
wasn't terribly familiar with it Larry but I pointed out the fact that there
aren't that many connections between TH 5 and TH 7 and you might, Roger might
touch on, or Larry, that 13 connection as being someway of off loading some of
the trips that might be using Minnewashta Boulevard. There just isn't a whole
lot of alternatives and if there's no alternative, it seeks the easiest route
11 and that happens to be Minnewashta Blvd. right now. But that's also why we
needed this study because 13 is out beyond our corporate boundaries and we don't
have any direct control over it except through a process such as this.
11 Roger Gustafson: I think the numbers on those north/south links between TH 5
and TH 7 probably reflect a need for TH 7 to have more capacity so it moves to
more of an all or nothing scenario on that corridor and that would then lessen
the popularity in looking for an alternative for TH 7. We'll know more about
that scenario when the new picture based on that '90 census. . .Metropolitan
Council's forecast for the metropolitan area is developed over the next 2 years.
When you get out around the fringe of the picture, we cut to do this study.
There are some limitations to the accuracy and what we're really looking at is
what Larry says is magnitude. Planning to the west. . .2 lane or 4 lane type of
facility corridor preservation. But we can't use these numbers to basically say
the design for that corridor should be 7,500 vehicles a day because of what the
study says. We know we're in a relative number there.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. That was one of the questions Paul and I had some
discussions about that this afternoon. I looked at that Minnewashta Parkway
which has met that count of about 9,600 and I look at that being a 30 mph speed
interconnection between TH S and TH 7 as opposed to TH 41. Now there aren't too
many people, if they're in the hurry to get going to where they're going,
normally that 55 mph speed will grab those total numbers so I feel when I look
at Minnewashta at 9,600, it seems like it's a higher number that shouldn't be in
those totals because of some things that we can do within that particular area.
By putting in a stop sign to deter some of that movement within.
Roger Gustafson: Mr. Mayor, that's one of the real important things to
recognize with this study is that by putting in some constraints you can sort of
make some community decisions as to what corridors are going to really be used
by a majority of the people by really looking at the all or nothing. . .and
frankly taking that constraint maybe a little further than what was assumed in
the study and all of those statistics are available. I mean maybe in the study
we projected an operating speed on that corridor of 35 and you want to create
what you're talking about with a different atmosphere of about 25 with stops in
and. . .what we hope to do when we run this forecast to actually see those numbers
change but that's the dynamics of this whole report. And that's where the magic
of this sort of computer programming gets real applicable as you actually get
into design. . .
Larry Dallam: We also show on here the dotted line, new two lane roads that
' will be necessary. And the preservation of the new TH 41 crossing, which I
think Chaska will put in their Comprehensive Plan as a policy. I mean it's in
the Metropolitan Council's policy plan so it should be, and their plan has to be
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
consistent but I think there may be the beginning of an aggressive attempt to
officially map it like 212 because once you do that then it qualifies for the. . .
right-of-way acquisition. . . The other thing, aspect of the study that we looked
at, oh! It might be, we decided to. . .what's needed in the future in terms of
capacity improvements with what staffs have been able to somehow beg, borrow or
steal from the area Councils in the last 10 years. Well these are the capacity
improvements that have been made in the last 10 years in this part of the study
area. What's needed in the future and what's needed in future total for eastern
Carver County, not including MnDot's responsibilities, is $125 million which
is. . .of which Chanhassen has estimated to be around $20 million. In terms of
roadway improvements which is certainly good news at this time of the year.
Then we look at Light Rail Transit and what opportunities that whole discussion
might provide. First of all, is there a need for it? Well, not witin the next
20 years but post 2010 I guess whether there's a need or not, we recommended to
the Carver County Board that were the opportunity to acquire an abandoned
railroad came about , we said it would be good public policy for the County to
acquire it and use it for other public uses. Trails. Linear parks. What have
you and preserve it in case it was ever needed for a transportation corridor in
the future. Now I'm working at the moment on the Highway 12 from Wayzata to
Delano project where 394 and 12 goes from 6 lanes to 2 lanes and one light.
This brought to mind the old Luce Line was available at one time. DNR, to their
credit, they grabbed it and they own it and there's no way it can be used for
transportation. . . It's beautiful and the people love it but it was lost forever
I guess, at least in the short term.
Mayor Chmiel: Larry, what's the status of Chicago Northwestern? Is that still
being considered for the LRT as you show here but at one time they were going to
abandon that respective railroad.
Larry Dallam: It's been acquired. I
Paul Krauss: Well if I can update that. First of all the tracks are being
pulled out of there I think as we speak. I haven't been down there but that's
what I've heard.
Mayor Chmiel: Really?
Paul Krauss: Yeah. Todd Hoffman contacted Hennepin County Railroad Authority I/
today and I believe they've either acquired or in the process of acquiring it
and I believe Todd is contending to set up meetings in conjunction with Eden
Prairie and Chaska on the possibility of creating that into a trail corridor.
Mayor Chmiel: Roger?
Roger Gustafson: It has been acquired by the County and MnDot is scheduling the
removal of the narrow bridge on TH 101 for this year. And they asked the County
for supporting that action a number of months ago. So I'm very hopeful that
that will stay on schedule.
Larry Dallam: We're recommending that their acquisition goes, I believe to 11 Chan.
Roger Gustafson: No, just west of 212. On the east end of Chaska.
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Councilman Workman: It goes to the sugar factory doesn't it?
Roger Gustafson: Just east of well, Gedney Pickle.
Larry Dallam: What we're saying is that should then be taken all the way to the
county border if the opportunity presents itself. Same way with the. . . If that
1 opportunity comes about.
Roger Gustafson: Is the Council aware that the Soo Line Railway has been for
sale and is in the process of changing hands? I think there were 32 interested
parties. . .on the market and they're negotiating with one at the present time. . .
acquire it and most of them needed trains as I understand it to carry coal.
That's a spin off of what is desired in the downtown Minneapolis area as far
as. . .necessitating Soo Line for looking at other options for bringing in the
coal. . .changing atmosphere as far as who is using the railroad.
Councilman Workman: Who's the one?
Roger Gustafson: I understand it's. . .but I have heard 3 others. . .and I even had
heard Minnesota Valley Transportation was interested.
Councilman Workman: Yeah, hopefully we'll use this report to our benefit in the
larger scope of 212 and LRT and everything else. Quickly on the LRT. I guess,
11 and a lot of these comments are late in the game but it would sure seem like Soo
Line would, as an LRT would serve Chanhassen much more than the one to the
south. The one to the south kind of goes down to the bottom and picks up Chaska
11 but that kind of by-passes us. Now I think it would be unbelieveable if we had
Soo Line with an LRT on it going right through down where it does. I think we
could dress up that area very simply and easily and people could come out to the
Dinner Theatre on it.
Larry Dallam: They could have dinner on the way.
Councilman Workman: Well there you go. Larry Dallam, your host for the
evening. But down on the bottom there, if you're going to remove that bridge,
I'm excited as all get out about that but that just doesn't seem to serve our
needs. I'm not sure how the political powers have been decided on that other
than it came up for sale when it wasn't used.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, I think a lot of things entered into it. First of all, I
don't know how much they really looked at it given the fact that, I mean they're
focusing on University Avenue and Hiawatha and when they're talking about a 3
phased program and this is after the third phase or beyond, I don't know how
much attention they paid to it. Additionally, they already picked up or were in
the process of picking up that southern corridor which made it easier. I mean
it's the line of least resistence right now. It's something we'll monitor
certainly. I don't expect anything to happen on this for quite a few years but
we will keep involved with it and if anything does surface. You're right. It
will serve downtown Chanhassen. One thing should be pointed out too is that
light rail, I had the fortune to work on some light rail projects a number of
years ago. Light rail doesn't work if you just count on, if it's in town and
you're walking to it. One of the primary things is park and ride and
coordination of buses and I don't know what the answer is from a regional
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I've but if there was, I ve heard talk about a large park and ride ri facility
that might be down on 169/212. Now conceiveably, that's not as close as we'd
like it to downtown but it may be centrally located to the Chaska/Chanhassen/
Shakopee. From a regional context that may make some sense. We will keep on
top of it.
Councilman Workman: Well and then also, this is another one of those Johnny ,
come lately ideas but it sure would have seemed like down the center of the new
212 corridor or if something could be built in there as they're constructing.
Increased cost obviously but while developing it, in the area or space, dead
space down the center of 212 which is going to be a major corridor would have
been, maybe it still can be, an idea that would be kind of a dual purpose you
know.
Roger Gustafson: You tell MnDot.
Councilman Workman: Okay. Me and Bill, we'll talk about it . But those are I
just some ideas that I think we should think about the Soo Line. If we can at
all, get our political clout together and get that accomplished down the road
when our kids are all on the Council. TH 101 on the north side. I'm going to
bring that up because I don't know how well we're working with the study and how
much we can bring in from Carver County in getting the State to once again claim
it's road there or do whatever's got to be done and it looks like we're going to _
want to expand that to 4 lanes but, but. I don't know what the long range plans
for that.
Paul Krauss: I don't know either. In fact, that issue's coming back to haunt
us very soon. We have the second phase of the Kurver's Addition coming in to
the Planning Commission. It's supposed to be next week, and we keep getting
these recommendations from MnOot that say basically let anything happen on TH
101 because they don't care and they don't think they'll have any responsibility
for it in the longer term. Maybe Roger can get at this a little bit. I
received a call from the traffic engineering department of Hennepin County. Some
folks I know over there and they had heard that that stretch of TH 101 may be
turned back to Hennepin County. Now I'm not sure how far south that might go.
If it might go into Chanhassen or not. Have you heard anything new on that
Roger? I
Roger Gustafson: I haven't. I'd be very interested in learning about those
types of conversations. What is now Hennepin County, they used to be TH 101 was
done by the legislature. . .not aware of any such bill now being considered by any
committee. Why it didn't happen then is frankly was an oversight because they
didn't recognize it as part of TH 101. . .so it was very awkward to have done it
as part of that package. . .
Paul Krauss: I read in a letter to Denny Hanson who's I guess sort of your
counter part in transportation in Hennepin County and hopefully I'll get some
more information back on that. But in any case, we are trying to preserve
sufficient right-of-way with Kurver's Point to allow it to go 4 lane. But as is
always the case on TH 101, we're shooting in the breeze because we don't have
real good direction from MnDot as to what they'd like to see. This report helps
us in that regard.
31 1
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Roger Gustafson: MnDot 's hands are well. . .tied as far as improvements on TH
101. As the Council may know, it's designated as a temporary highway so MnOot
is really limiting it to safety improvements on that corridor. . .construction
improvements. The only way they can do that is if it was legislated to be a
trunk highway. . .so it's very awkward for them to address capacity. . .
Mayor Chmiel: Temporary can be there for a long time.
Councilman Workman: Just a couple more comments. County Road 17 north of TH 5
in the projects is really loading up and would be projected to be a 4 lane
highway. What kind of coordination do we have with Shorewood and Excelsior
where it comes into TH 7 there and what would be the long range plan? It would
seem like that would, first of all the Shorewood. Shorewood, and I've been
talking to a number of people over there, a totally unfriendly nature of law
enforcement and what they're trying to do or protect through that corridor as it
enters into Excelsior and we're going to have 17,000 cars driving up there and
every one of them is going to have a speeding ticket or whatever they're going
to have. It seemed to me that we're going to have to coordinate some sort of
effort. Are they going to put a new intersection in up there? Some new
ramps? Take out houses? I mean that's about all they can do. And I'll back up
some of my comments with, and I'm in the business of insuring some automobiles
and everybody that comes in, if they're got one ticket, if they've got at least
one ticket, they got it there. Got it in Shorewood and that can't be helping
downtown Excelsior's retail. She's smiling back there because she got one
probably. It can't be helping Excelsior's retail. There's a situation there
that's really getting, and Vineland Road I think. People have to virtually lock
their brakes up going down hills. Is that going to happen?
Roger Gustafson: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Workman, I think you are beginning to
define some of the tasks that lie before this technical committee. We've sort
11 of paused since this study was completed but frankly some of that sort of
initiation is starting to take place now by being sure that. . .Eden Prairie.
Shorewood has come and make them aware of this study and what it looks like in
our area. Converse with them as far as how much. . .with what they're looking at
in their area. . . .MnDot, Met Council types of activities to see if I guess a
joint plan in our area could be expanded to be consistent with what's around us.
That's a very valid. . .
Councilman Workman: Well it's the old.
Roger Gustafson: The same thing is true with Lyman Blvd. extending into Eden
Prairie.
Councilman Workman: If you increase speed, you increase capacity maybe? Sort
of? I don't know.
Larry Dallam: Other way around.
Councilman Workman: It's a frustrating situation and I'm doing my own analysis
through there and talking to some of the people up there. I have no speeding .
tickets. I never have had one. I would like the record to state. I think I've
done that before.
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes you have.
Councilman Workman: Thank you. And then lastly, Pioneer Trail and Highway 101.
The stop sign down there. It's very, very much needed because I stop there and
it doesn't irritate me stopping there at all. Is it long range to get something
over there besides a stop sign? Or what are we going to do with that?
Roger Gustafson: MnDot in it's program continues to carry a dollar amount that
may be available for improvement at that intersection. Sight distance, there
would be enough for signals but eventually those kinds of things will have to be
looked at.
Councilman Workman: That's it .
Mayor Chmiel: Okay.
Larry Dallam: Finally, I'll just call your attention to the recommendations on
page 2, most of which we've touched on but the staff has already. . .Comp Plan.
Mayor Chmiel: I might add too. On some of that there's some specific, some
under the summary of findings where it says there are several inconsistencies
between existing city, county transportation plans. Those don't exist anymore.
Those have been taken care of. We've relooked at that.
Larry Dallam: Thank you very much.
Councilwoman Dimler: I have a question. I
Mayor Chmiel: One quick question.
Councilwoman Dimler: Could you tell me who was on that committee or who is on 1
that committee? Oh, I see. Okay. Is that same people going to stay on there?
They're all agreeable to it?
1/Roger Gustafson: Except for Gary Warren.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. Are you going to replace him with Paul? I
Mayor Chmiel: You may have two, maybe Chuck. Excuse me Charles. Okay. Thank
you very much. Appreciate the time to come here and inform us as to what's
happening. I
(Councilman Wing left the meeting during this item and was not present to vote
on the remaining items. ) I
TRUNK HIGHWAY 5 IMPROVEMENTS FROM COUNTY ROAD 17 TO TRUNK HIGHWAY 41, PROJECT
90-17: APPROVE JOINT POWERS AGREEMENT FOR PREPARATION OF CONSTRUCTION
DOCUMENTS.
Mayor Chmiel: This is something I think we had for a long time and I think
everybody is probably pretty familiar with this. Don, do you have anything to '
add to that?
•
33 /
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11 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
IIDon Ashworth: Not really. Again, we have been working on this for the last 2
or 3 years and hopefully. We did have a minor setback in terms of we were short
like $50,000.00 and through negotiations with the State, they have agreed to
11 pick that amount up so that no longer is a cost associated with our Southwest i
group. The City and County's share is still in there but we have included that
in the 1991 budget. .
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? Hearing none, I'll call for a motion to
approve the joint powers agreement.
IICouncilman Workman: We're on number 7, yes. I move approval of TH 5
improvements from CR 17 to TH 41, Project 90-17. Approve Joint Powers Agreement
for preparation of construction documents.
IICouncilman Mason: Second.
II Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the Joint Powers
Agreement for preparation of construction documents for Trunk Highway 5
improvements from County Road 17 to Trunk Highway 41, Project 90-17. All voted
Ili
in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT FUNDS. ALLOCATION FOR YEAR XVII.
II Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, as you're aware, at the last meeting you approved most
of the projected schedule of allocations for Year XVII. There was one item that
was withheld and that was the $5,000.00 allocation for making the old Village
II Hall handicapped accessible. There were a couple questions that were asked of ;
us. One pertained to use of the building and whether or not it actually was
warranted. The other was a suggestion by Councilwoman Dimler that we
investigate making some of the Southwest Metro buses handicapped accessible. I
I contacted Diane Harberts at Southwest Metro and she filled me in on a few
different things. First of all you may have read in the newspaper in the last
few weeks there's a federal mandate that all new buses and transports be fully
ill handicapped accessible when these things are bought new. So Diane tells me that
when our main line buses are replaced, and they will be in, it's a relatively
short period of time. •
tCouncilwoman Dimler: No. Over 12 years. That's why I asked for that.
Paul Krauss: Is it 12 years? •
IICouncilwoman Dimler: Yeah. And. . .are going to be later than the rest.
I Paul Krauss: Well, one thing she did indicate though is when your contract is
up for redrafting, that you can insist on an accessible bus as part of the
contract. But that comes in due course. The other aspect of it was the Morley
II Bus Company, dial-a-ride stuff. And Diane said a couple things. First of all
we are part of the Metro Mobility Service area so we do have specific
handicapped equipped. . .buses that do serve door to door for handicapped people
and to her, to the best of her knowledge, she's not aware that there's an unmet
I need that exists. There's also a problem with Motley Bus Company in that
they're a private firm and they schedule their buses for our use but they could
use them elsewhere. There's also a question of cost too in that we're not sure
II34
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
how much it costs to retrofit a bus. We think it's a fairly sizeable amount.
It's easier to build it in from the outset. I also spoke to Larry Blackstad who
is our contact person at Hennepin County who helps us with our block grant and
Larry told me that he believed that it was not a fundable activity. And that he
also echoed the fact that it's going to happen in due course anyway and that
this may be premature. Diane said'it was a good idea but that we ought to step
back next year and see what's materialized through it because it seems like a
lot of things are turning that we're going to get it . We then looked at the old
Village Hall and I did look up in the calendar for March and I believe there
were 7 or 8 meetings scheduled in there for March. Now that's just what
appeared in our checkout calendar book. Other people may have just borrowed it
for the day and just come over to see if it was available. I don't know. We
are extremely short of meeting space in the city and that room has some
limitations. I think it would be used a whole lot more if some improvements
were made to it. This year possibly making it handicapped accessible
physically. I haven't talked to Todd about it but possibly in future years
making the interior a little more desireable as a place to meet. I believe
there was an incident too where somebody was handicapped tried to get into the
building and had difficulty doing that. We've asked for a couple of estimates
on what it would take from a design standpoint. I haven't seen that yet but
we'll get that to you as quickly as possible. What I would recommend is you go
ahead and authorize this expenditure and we will not be in a hurry to spend
this. I mean we'll try to justify this to you when we get the numbers and
design. If at that time you don't want to go ahead with this, I mean Larry
would not like me to say this but you could decide to reallocate those funds.
So you're kind of having your cake and eat it too. We'll make sure that we
bring this back to you before any monies are expended and you can tell us what
you want to do with it at that time. And again, we are recommending then that
you approve this and that the resolution regarding all of Year XVII funding,
we'll process that through Hennepin County. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Any other discussion?
Councilwoman Dimler: I just want to thank you for doing the research. I guess I
I have to accept it . I still think that $5,000.00 for a ramp is a lot and I'm
thinking that there might be something left over so at that time we can
reallocate that? '
Paul Krauss: Right.
Councilwoman Dimler: So I would move. Yeah, go ahead. I
Todd Gerhardt: Councilwoman and Mr. Mayor. I did receive bids.. He called me
Friday afternoon with a verbal over the phone and it was only $1,800.00 but I I
want to look at that a little further. That was for a ramp in the front to the
building. He said due to the contours of the rear of the building, you have to
have a 12% grade for the wheelchair. I want to go back there and look at that
and see if we can't, I just think it would take away from that building if you
had a ramp in the front. We've got to look at maybe either regrading some of
the area in back there or something else but I need to meet with the gentleman
that did do the bid but it's going to be in a range of that area. And that was
with a concrete poured sidewalk ramp. Whatever you want to call it.
35 1
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City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
11 Councilwoman Dimler: So I move approval.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Resolution $91-30: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the allocation of $5,000.00 iA COBG funds to making the old Village Hall
I/ handicapped accessible and authorize the drafting of a resolution adopting the
Year XVII CDBG funding program for forwarding to Hennepin County. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
SIGN ORDINANCE REQUIREMENTS, COUNCILMAN WORKMAN.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we've already had your discussion on that .
Councilman Workman: We'll have more though.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay.
11 Councilman Workman: Golf Course Committee is meeting Thursday, 5:30. Right
here at City Hall. Talk about this exciting thing.
Councilman Mason: Who all do you have on that?
Councilman Workman: Joan Ahrens, myself, Richard Wing, Brian Batzli and as of
yet an unnamed Park Commissioner.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
11 LEAGUE OF MINNESOTA CITIES ANNUAL CONFERENCE, CITY MANAGER.
Don Ashworth: That's set for June 11th to the 14th. It will be held in
Rochester. I believe this past year when they held it up north, that that was a
conflict for Council members. I did attend. It's usually a good conference. I
was trying to get some idea as to tentatively, is the Council looking to
attending that? Is there any interest?
Councilman Workman: That's the U.S. you en week know?
P
Don Ashworth: Is that right?
Councilwoman Dimler: Graduation too.
Councilman Workman: I'd like to get back to you on that Don. I'm going to be
attending all seven days of the U.S. Open. I can let you know maybe a certain
day I can go.
Don Ashworth: I was going to say, you can pick and choose a time. Council
members have just gone down for the one day. Maybe including the banquet and
coming back the next morning. That type of thing.
36
City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I was looking at possibly Wednesday and Thursday but I'll
let you know.
Councilwoman Dimler: Do you have to pre-register for the whole thing?
Mayor Chmiel: No. It 's not required. It shows here what you can do and what -
you can't do.
Roger Knutson: Getting a hotel can be very tough though if you don't register
in advance. '
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Getting a hotel is part of the problem.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'll just go down for the day. ,
Mayor Chmiel: They do have some early bird specials and they'd like you to have
that registration in by May 1st.
Don Ashworth: I saw May 14th as a deadline in there as well.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, it's right here. So if anyone is wanting to do that, get I
back to Don. Paul, you wanted to talk about Task Force?
Paul Krauss: Yes Mr. Mayor. What I would request that the Council consider I
doing is appointing two members and asking the Planning Commission to appoint
two members to work with staff on the final interviews of consultants wishing to
work for the City on the Surface Water Utility District. We prefer not, I mean
there's a lot riding on that relationship and we'd prefer to have a wide variety
of opinion on that. What we're planning to do is to cut it down. We have 15 or
16 applicants for that now. What we'd like to do is in-house we're going to
review that . Get it down to 5 who we think are the best and have those 5
prepare detailed proposals for review by this task force. The second charge for
this task force, as I see it too, is to basically become the nucleus of a group 11 that would be assembled to work with us on this thing over the next couple years
and I would see this group making some recommendations with your assistance on
the Council Mr. Mayor, to appoint some people from lake associations to work
with us. A manageable group is probably 7 to 10 people. More than that, you
have problems with having people come regularly and it is a fairly significant
committment of time.
Mayor Chmiel: I would think we should have at least 10 people. Get a little '
better idea and a little better consensus. I know there is some indication that
some people would like to serve on it. I would probably as well and I think we
had a couple others that also felt. You may have three Council people or maybe
even four. The more there are the better the interest, that's good. So I would
suggest that you proceed and try to get some people from specific areas. I'd
like to get people from the lake areas to come up with some people who have some
knowledge as to the engineering aspects of it, if they're there.
Paul Krauss: Well possibly what we could do is work with the newspapers that
are here tonight. I hope they're still here, see if we can have them run an
article and ask for some names. I've received some phone calls back and some
responses from the surface water utility bills and I've asked them to write to
37 11
City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991
you directly Mr. Mayor and indicate their interest but if we can put together
this task force early enough, probably sometime in June, we can have them
participate in, as a whole group, on the interviews. It'd be nice for all those
people to have an understanding.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. That 's great .
Councilman Workman: By the way, this is Dave Pederson's last night at the
Council so we're going to be throwing him into that pool up there.
1 • Mayor Chmiel: There isn't any water.
Councilman Workman: That's all the better.
• Mayor Chmiel: Maybe we should say Bon Voyage. Have fun in the fair state of
California and if you really strike and hit gold, call us.
Councilman Mason: Dick wanted to set up.
' Mayor Chmiel: Yes, I had that one. He wanted to set up a meeting and I just
had some brief discussion with Don to have an analogy of that meeting and he's
going to pull that together. As soon as we get that, then I think we can set up
a meeting. A breakfast meeting and sit down and look at the goals and review
them.
Councilman Mason: Sounds good. I guess I would like this to be on the record.
I'm only speaking for myself but I was really impressed at the workshop session
on Saturday with everyone that was there. As I commented, I've been in
education and worked with people for a long time and to have, I don't know what
there were, 15 people there I think? Clearly I thought everyone was working for
the common goal and that's to make Chanhassen a better place. It was real fun
to be a part of that.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Appreciate the comments. Any other discussion?
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Mason seconded to adjourn the meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:00 p.m..
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
11
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1
38
I
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
APRIL 3, 1991
' Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7.35 p .m . .
MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart , Ladd Conrad , Annette Ellson , Steve Emmings ,
Brian Batzli , Jeff Farmakes , and Joan Ahrens
' STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss , Planning Director ; Jo Ann Olsen , Senior
Planner ; and Sharmin Al-Jaff , Planner I
OPEN DISCUSSION:
' PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT ORDINANCE AMENDMENTS/DISCUSSION OF PUD'S FOR
RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS.
Emmings: I guess what I 'm going to propose that we do here is take them in
order and spend no more than 45 minutes per topic unless someone really
feels a burning urge to talk after that . Or maybe we 'll spend 45-50
minutes on each one maximum and then come back to any one that people feel
we 're not done with . So let 's try to just focus and do that and get out of
here . I don 't know exactly .
Conrad: . . .good job but you just told us we 'd get out of here by 11 :00
Steve . I can see through the screen .
Emmings: No , I 'm looking at the clock .
' Ahrens : Do we have limits on how long each person can talk?
Emmings: Let 's not talk about it otherwise we 'll burn up our 45 minutes
establishing a procedure . I guess I don 't think Paul needs to introduce
this . I don 't know what the best way is to go through this . I 'm open to
suggestions but otherwise I think maybe we ought to go section by section
' through the stuff that Paul 's written and then see what comments people
have . The other thing I wanted to ask Paul , as far as what you 've drafted
for revisions to the PUD ordinance , do you think that what 's here is , you
wrote this before we heard the presentations by Shardlow and Terry Forbord .
Ellson: They did a good job by the way .
Emmings: Yeah . Did someone get them a letter and thank them?
Krauss: I haven 't but I could .
11 Emmings : Yeah , I think it would be a good idea . It was nice of them to
spend their time . And I thought it was kind of useful although it was good
' as background .
Conrad: As primer . I wish we had more time to talk real issues .
Emmings: Yeah . Or to talk about how we can put language in our ordinance
to get to what he 's talking about because what he 's talking about sounded
really good but I was going to ask you if you thought that what you 've
I
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' Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 2
•
written here and the direction that g revising ou 're heading in revisin the
Y
ordinance is going in that direction or is going to get us to where we can
use the PUD ordinance in the ways they were talking about?
Krauss: Yeah . I think basically what we have drafted is consistent with
the model ordinance that John gave out . I mean the model 's not
revolutionary . We 've been , in professional circles we 've been seeing these
things circulating for some time . In terms of his intent or the intent
statements about achieving the kind of goals that were outlined when you
' reviewed the different types of developments , I also think that 's in his
document . One area though of the draft that I think warrants change has to
do with single family development . Since the single family chapter of the
' PUD was so new and since the experience in Chanhassen , or what we thought
our experience in Chanhassen largely was with PUD 's , appeared to be so
unsatisfactory , I didn 't propose any changes to our current PUD standards
' for single family . But I think that growing out of particularly Terry
Forbord 's comments or his illustration of what things can look like , I
believe there 's a 9 ,800 square foot lot , I think we may want to rethink our
approach to those districts . The way our single family section is handled
right now , it 's basically designed to prevent all the abuses that we
experience but it doesn 't give anybody any design guidelines or
flexibility . Hence it will never be used . I think that that can be
' rewritten to allow much reduced lot sizes in exchange for architectural and
design standards in exchange for different but regimented setbacks . That
in exchange for guarantees that plans will come in with decks on them so we
don 't have the variance problem . A variety of things that we can do . It
wouldn 't be too hard to tinker with that along those lines and I didn 't
have a chance to do it before tonight but I really think that you should
look at rethinking the single family section . I found Forbord 's comment ,
Terry on that pretty persuasive . And I think you 're all aware that we in
the planning department have been stung repeatedly with abuses of the PUD
and even we didn 't want to touch it until we rethought the issue having
' heard what Forbord was saying so I think you can consider that .
Emmings: Let me ask you this . Terry showed us pictures of very small lots
with houses with very small front yard setbacks . Do you think by looking
at someone 's plan for a PUD that had those kinds of characteristics , do you
think you could look at the plan and tell how it wound up looking so nice
on the slide? Do you know what I mean?
' Krauss: Yeah , and I don 't think you can because the shots , what makes the
shots very pretty are the background of the mature trees that were
preserved . The high end architecture . The high end landscaping and those
kinds of things are sort of market driven . Well actually , some of that you
can .
Ellson: Well tree preservation would certainly be a good trade off .
Krauss: Right . When you think about it , the PUD ordinance for single
' family can mandate those sorts of things . One of the issues I raise in the
landscaping paper is that all our landscaping standards completely ignore
single family development which I think is wrong . But certainly in a
residential PUD you can demand a landscaping budget for each house . You
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 3
e of tree preservation and those sorts of things so
can demand higher level r p g
you do have that authority . You do have the architectural ability to have
architectural control . One of the things that would happen in the PUD and I
what didn 't happen in our old PUD 's was that there would be a set of
covenants or development contract would be filed against the property that
would have very specific guidelines that every buyer would know going into II
this . Any buyer that uses an attorney which should be anybody these days .
That lay out exactly what the flexibility and responsibilities are . We
never had that with Pheasant Hill . I mean the developer just said okay ,
we 've got 10 ,000 square foot lots . Go do whatever you 're going to do and
there was a little bit of flexibility on some of the setbacks , side yard
setbacks but they just went off without any limitations or direction or
restrictions at all and I think we saw the result . But we can easily
rework this section to outline what we want in exchange for this
flexibility . And I 'd be happy to tackle that if the Planning Commission
was .
Emmings: Well as long as we 're on this subject why don 't we , page 13 is
the single family detached PUD ordinance . Maybe we ought to just look at
that first . I guess my concern is this . I wonder if it 's possible to
write an ordinance so we wind up with something that 's going to be as
effectively done as what we saw in those slides . I don 't know if it 's the
standards you write in that give you that or if it 's just the quality of
the builder .
Ellson: He 's basically saying that you can ask for more quality it sounds
like to me . Let 's say they 're not that caliber but they want a PUD . We
can then impose to make them a higher standard . Maybe all his developments
have been low end kind of siding or whatever . We can now say because you
have the PUD , you can 't do what you did in Brooklyn Park . You 've got to do II
one step better . We 'd have more flexibility that way .
Krauss: I think that 's quite accurate . We don 't want to have an ordinance II
loose enough that 's dependent upon the whim of the individual developer .
Exactly what we 'd want to do is be sure that we have a set of minimum
standards that say , you want this flexibility . You want to achieve this
type of thing , you 're going to have to basically buy it . Here 's how you
buy it . You give us the architectural standards . You give us the design
perameters . You give us the landscaping and tree preservation otherwise
you don 't get it . Go build your 15 ,000 square foot lots . I
Elison: And hopefully the trade off is good enough on their side too so
they can have more units in a smaller area or something like that .
Krauss: Save on streets and save on utilities .
Emmings: With what 's written here under ( a ) regarding all the minimums and II
deviations from the minimum lot sizes and so forth , would you just get rid
of all of that?
Krauss: You 'd have to completely rework that , yes . I think you 'd still
want a minimum lot size possibly . There 's another thing you should
I
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 4
consider . When I wrote this I raised the potential of zero lot line
housing which is a different animal .
Emmings: Well this is the detached section though .
Krauss: I know but that 's where it gets confusing because zero lot line
housing is often detached . It just has one wall of the building that sits
on the property line .
' Emmings: So then this is real incomplete for what we 're talking about now .
Krauss : Yeah . Now I have drafted ordinances dealing with zero lot lines
and I eluded to that in this thing but I didn 't give it to you . I can do
that very quickly but yes , we completely have to drop or redo the standards
pertaining to single family . Now for strict single family neighborhoods ,
' you probably still want to have a minimum lot size . You might well
consider that 5 ,000 square feet is just absurd because that 's a Minneapolis
lot and no matter what you do to the building , no matter what you do to
landscaping , it 's going to look like a Minneapolis lot . But we saw in the
1 picture that something under 10 ,000 square feet seemed to work so maybe you
want to establish the minimum at 9 ,000 . We can research that a little bit .
But you very clearly want to state what the trade offs are .
rEllson: Now he didn 't have a whole lot of 9 's though .
Ahrens : He just had a few and he was positioned with a pond behind them
with mature trees . That makes a big difference rather .
Ellson: Right , versus the whole thing turning into a cul-de-sac .
Krauss: You give them the flexibility and then they come to you with the
design so we don 't have to do that . We just have to critique it . One
other thing that we 've never done in PUD 's that this ordinance does and we
should do in single family is , I 've always firmly believed that within a
PUD you give lots of flexibility . Where that PUD bumps into traditional •
' development , you 're very careful to insure that that outside blends . That
along the perimeter you 've established sufficient setbacks that looks like
the development next door .
Emmings: Sounds like a blending ordinance . Have we been here before?
Ellson: We threw that away a long time ago . Don 't bring that up again .
Emmings: Well are people , I think this needs a lot of revision . Are people
interested in zero lot lines?
Erhart : How do you maintain the wall that 's adjacent to the next guy?
Krauss: Covenants .
Erhart: Doesn 't the roof have to cover both of them?
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Planning Commission Meeting '
April 3 , 1991 - Page 5
Krauss: No . Most zero lot lines , there 's different kinds of zero lot
lines . A townhouse could be zero lot line but that 's zero lot line
attached . Physically the walls are attached . They have , they call them z
lined or zero lot line where they have relatively small building area and
one exterior wall of that detached home is shoved onto or virtually
adjacent to one of the property lines and then the open space that they
have is generally courtyard type concepts . Very highly landscaped . Intense II
utilitization of relatively small areas and usually enclosed by privacy
fence or hedges or something like that .
• Erhart : So the buildings aren 't next to each other?
Krauss: No . They could be one over here and then one over there . Just
scattered .
Ahrens: Aren 't those houses on Minnetonka Boulevard zero lot lines?
Krauss: Yep . Exactly .
Ahrens: They 're across just west of City Hall on the south side of
Minnetonka Boulevard .
Krauss: I haven 't been over there to see how that turned out but the
ordinance I wrote for Minnetonka for zero lot line homes was written
specifically to allow that project to go ahead .
Ahrens: They 're almost all built . 1
Krauss: But there are additional trade offs that you want to insure with
zero lot lines that you don 't normally do with small lot single family .
Because what happens with zero lot line is you 're so close to the other
party that you have to have strict architectural controls to make sure that
the bathroom window of this house doesn 't look into the living room window
of the next house or that the air conditioner compressor isn 't under the
kitchen window of the next house . You know . . .location of utilities is real
important .
Ahrens: And there 's obviously no decks .
Krauss: They actually put their design in from the outset because I
remember going through some models over there that they do have decks in
the back . In fact zero lot line traditionally , what they use for open
space is you have very small private open spaces adjacent to the building
but they open up onto common spaces that they have landscaped greenways
that run down kind of a central court behind these units and that they open
up onto it and you restrict fencing that would cut that up into little
pieces so it becomes an amenity . It 's a different animal though again than II
small lot single family .
Ellson: The benefit is what? It 's giving people affordable housing?
Krauss : What you find , yeah . Terry made a lot of comments about building
for specific markets . Demographers will have oodles of information showing 11
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11 Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 6
you the aging of the baby boom , the aging of society and what not . People
Y g 9 Y r
looking to get out of traditional single family homes have often
traditionally looked to get into townhomes . Tom Workman 's neighborhood is
virtually entirely seniors at this point because of the housing style that
he 's in . Zero lot line homes typically are kind of move out housing for
middle and older aged folks .
Ellson: Empty nesters?
Krauss: Yeah , exactly . Because it 's not cheap housing . It 's oftentimes
quite expensive . There 's economies in doing it that way but you can build
to different market segments but there 's very little private maintenance
' required . Because of the close proximity that you have , you have
maintenance , cooperative maintenance for building exteriors . You have
cooperative maintenance for landscaping areas and private streets . So a
lot of that stuff as in the townhouse is taken care of by an association .
You may have tennis courts , pools , those sort of things too .
Emmings: So where are we? As far as the single family detached , that
section has to be rewritten and anything to do with zero lot lines I take
it would always be a PUD?
Krauss : Yes .
Emmings: We wouldn 't treat that under any other .
Krauss: Well there 's really no other way of effectively doing it . I mean
I suppose if you had , well even that , there 's no standards district that
could accommodate it because you basically have condominium lots on those
' things . It doesn 't fit in any district .
Emmings: Right . So that would be part of this section or part of this
ordinance?
Krauss: And if , it sounds like you 're somewhat interested , I 've got a lot
of research information . Planning magazine articles and stuff on that type
of development .
Emmings: Let 's ask if people are interested in having him move that up to
take a look at it . Is anybody not interested?
Batzli : I think it 'd be fun . I don't know if there 's a market in this
community for that yet .
Emmings: We can get ahead of that maybe .
' Farmakes : There 's a lot of seniors .
Emmings: You 're the one who 's always talking about being proactive .
Batzli : Okay , let 's be proactive .
Ellson: Proactive . Go for it .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 7
Erhart : You 're asking about the zero lot line?
Emmings: Well yeah . Reworking this section and including having him draft II
something up so we can look at it .
Erhart: I guess given the list of work items we 've got and the
questionability of whether there 's a market for that here , I guess I would II
prefer the approach that Minnetonka had and that is , if someone comes in
and wants to do a development , then develop an ordinance around that . To
have them work on this is taking something else .
Emmings : Is this something that you 've essentially got?
Krauss: Yeah . It 's something that , I don 't want to mislead you . I 'm going II
to pull it off the shelf and revise it to fit this context so it 's not a
tremendous amount of work . '
Emmings : Does that change your mind?
Erhart : Do you think you 're inviting , by putting it into the ordinance , 1
are you inviting that kind of development?
Krauss: I honestly don 't believe a city has the ability to invite
something . If the market 's not there , it 's not going to happen . And if
it 's done in a manner that makes sure that if it happens it 's done to a
standard that the community finds acceptable .
Emmings: You know what it sounds like? It sounds like a great kind of
development to do around a golf course .
Batzli : It does .
Ahrens: Yeah it does .
Ellson: Truthfully you 're right . That is how they back up to a golf
course .
Emmings: They 've all got their own little golf cart right in their garage
like you see in those places down south and they just drive right over and
go . I
Krauss : One of the things Minnetonka did too which helps to avoid some of
the direct impacts in single family neighborhoods is that they restricted
zero lot line type development only to those areas that were guided for
medium to high density housing . When you 're developing at that intensity ,
you 're no longer within the 0 to 4 density range and we shouldn't mislead
anybody to think they can get that in there unless there 's a tremendous
amount of open space .
Emmings: Okay . Let 's maybe go back to the intent section then . 20-501 . 1
Ellson: Where are you? I 'm sorry .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 8
Emmings : We 're on page 3 in the stuff that Paul gave us .
' Krauss : If you work your packet from the back .
Emmings : Yeah , I 'm looking at that .
rEllson: It 's page 3 if you work from the back?
Batzli : What are we doing?
Emmings: I thought we 'd just go through this section by section , unless
people want to do something else . . .but maybe we could just , if you look
' from the back and go into the packet to page 3 , that 's what Paul 's written
his intent statement . He 's redrafted Section 20-501 . I don 't know if
people have any comments on that . It 's very similar to what we had
' originally .
Batzli : That 's a lot of stuff . To me it looks like our comprehensive plan
goals . I read this and I thought , Mom 's Apple Pie Part II .
Emmings : Yeah , it 's hard to comment on it when you don 't know what it
means . It 's vague . I don 't know what else you can do .
' Batzli : I 'd rather hold off on the intent until we go through the rest of
it actually .
' Emmings: Anybody else want to comment on the intent section?
Ellson : I like it and I was the one who was all for the Mom and Apple Pie
' in the comprehensive plan in case people are coming from the other side .
So I like it . It spells it out .
' Emmings: Alright , let 's go on to 20-502 then . The proposed 20-502 .
Batzli : You know , I guess if , let me make one comment on the intent
11 section . I remember , unfortunately , that we were talking about this in the
context of residential and Paul kept saying , you know we want to do this
more in an industrial setting . I don 't know . When I read this , all I
think of is residential . And whenever we talk about it and even the people
we had here didn 't , they talked about it a little bit , integrating office
with maybe some higher density uses but they really didn 't talk about it I
thought in the context that you were trying to push the PUD . I mean that 's
' the feeling I get . I don 't know if I 'm misreading where you were going or
not .
Krauss: I asked them to touch on the range of things and some of the stuff
' that John showed in his slides were like industrial office parks that were
developed as PUD 's .
Batzli : I went by one the other day . I checked it out . The one over by
Southdale . I think there was one that they had showed . That was done
really nicely . I think it was Southdale . It was on the northwest . It 's
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Planning Commission Meeting I
April 3 , 1991 - Page 9
on the west side of it I think . I was confused because I was coming at it II
from north to south .
Conrad: They did the Eden Prairie one . I wasn 't sure what was PUDish '
about that .
Krauss: Well ones that I 'm directly familiar with . The Carlson Center in I
Minnetonka is a PUD . Minnetonka Corporate Center on the Crosstown is a
PUD . In Edina , the whole Edinborough complex is a PUD . Coincidentally , I II think you may recall that the 137 acre area outside of Timberwood was left
residential but there were some guidelines put in there that is somebody
wanted to do non-residential , the City may consider it . If it was done as -
PUD subject to some very strict guidelines as to quality of development and II
buffering and preservation and school site and everything else . It took
about , well a month and we already have a major Twin Cities industrial
developer who 's talking to us about coming in under those guidelines , and II is very comfortable with the PUD . In fact , prefers to do it that way .
Ellson: A good one?
- Krauss: Yeah . II
Erhart : Develop what?
II
Krauss: Basically an office park . Office/industrial park . But they
understand the requirements for high end architecture and for buffering and II
for preservation of natural features and it 's fine with them so far . So I
don 't know if that antidotally gets to your issue but that 's probably one
of the handiest places to use it . Now when we get onto this page 5 with my
comments on allowed uses , we get to one of the things that John was talking II
about and that I 'd like to see in here is that our PUD ordinance is very
specific . Right now if you have an area that 's guided for high density
housing , you can have a high density PUD. Nothing else . It 's not allowing '
that mix of flexibility that 's real important as part of a trade off and to
get an effective large scale development . What we 've proposed is that a
small percentage , 25% of the PUD could be used for non-district designated
uses if it 's consistent with the plan . Now if somebody 's looking at ,
developing 137 acres or some portion of that , they may want to have high
density residential . They may want to have a small service commercial .
There 's a lot of varieties of things that they may want to consider and you I
may want to give them that flexibility . The way the ordinance is reworded
here gives that flexibility that doesn 't presently exist .
Emmings: Does anyone have other comments on either the , are you satisfied II
you got your question answered?
Batzli : No but we 'll come back to it though . I
Emmings : Okay . On 20-502 . Any comments there?
Batzli : Does it have to be consistent with the comprehensive plan? I mean II
I don 't understand . In ( a ) it says if it 's not designated in the
comprehensive plan if the City Council finds that use , during that process
1
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' Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 10
do we have to change the comprehensive plan then?
Krauss: It actually depends . It 's one of those things . If it 's a
' significant amount of deviation that it trips a Metro Council review ,
you 'll have to change the comprehensive plan . But what this is doing , this
is my opinion and this is how I 've done it in the past is that , if you 've
got a hundred thousand square foot of development and 75 ,000 square foot of
it is exactly what you said it was going to be and 25 ,000 square foot is
related , although somewhat different , you 're being consistent with the
intent of the plan and that 's what the premise of this is and that you
shouldn 't have to go through a comprehensive plan amendment to achieve
that . Now if you 're talking about mega-million square foot development ,
then the Metro Council 's going to ask you to go through a review because
' your impact on roads and what not and the sewers are going to be different .
Keep in mind too we don 't need to put in a specific statement here that
says development has to be consistent with the comprehensive plan because
Iwe did that for the entire zoning ordinance .
Emmings: It 's in another place in this proposed ordinance too isn 't it?
Krauss: That may have been redundant .
Ellson : I think it 's in the intent thing that development which is
' consistent with the comprehensive plan . Under intent number 11 .
Emmings : Anyone else have comments on 502? How about 503?
Krauss: I think if I may . 503 gets to the point where we start throwing
the water out with the bath water . We say that you 've got to be
' coordinated with subdivision regulations and that 's fine but it says
nothing that you have to coordinate with wetland or shoreland or parking
standards or site plan review or anything else .
' Emmings : Well that 's in 504 . •
Krauss: We get into that later but the issue is raised there .
Emmings: Well I 'm going through looking at the proposed . I don 't want to
look at the old one , or at least for a format for getting through here I 'm
looking at what you proposed . The 5 net acres , minimum area 5 net acres .
How do you arrive at a figure of that 5?
Krauss: I will let Jo Ann explain gross and net . I don 't particularly
' like the way we do it .
Jo Ann Olsen: The 5 acres?
Emmings: The 5 net .
Jo Ann Olsen: We 've just always , that came in with the wetlands and other
IIsubdivisions where we 'd always , are you talking about net versus gross?
Krauss: Uh-huh .
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Planning Commission Meeting I
April 3 , 1991 - Page 11
Jo Ann Olsen: Where one part of the zoning ordinance it referred to it as ,
net acres and then the comprehensive plan referred to gross .
Emmings: No , I know what the net means . I think I do . i
Jo Ann Olsen : You 're talking about why 5?
Emmings: Yeah .
} Krauss: 5 in particular?
Batzli : Tag .
Emmings: Yeah . If it 's a word she does it . If it 's a number he does it . 1
Krauss: I wish I had a great reason for you but I don 't know . Older
ordinances used to have much larger minimum lot areas for PUD 's and the II premise was that PUD 's are something to be feared . That this flexibility ,
if it backfires so you 've got to make it big enough so that your problems
can be buried in the middle someplace . But there 's something to be said II for having a minimum lot size I believe for a PUD . Our current thinking in
. PUD 's is that , here you have this envelope where you 've approved and
there 's a big blank space and anything goes within that . I think that 's
the wrong impression to give that you have to define what you 're going to
get in there but you are giving a lot of flexibility and I have difficulty
with the premise that you can take a 1 1/2 acre parcel in the middle of a
single family neighborhood , designate it a PUD and do an adequate design
job that not only meets that PUD but blends into the surroundings .
Ellson: But you know , I got that out of his presentation that even a II single subdivision could be done creatively and that 's exactly why I had a
question . And he was talking about that exact thing . About you could save
that grove of trees and let the person move it all to one side , therefore I
liked the idea of either taking off the restrictions or making it really
small so it sounded like you could be as creative on a single lot as you
could 5 acres and I question the numbers . Well more from what he sold me
on last time . 1
Krauss: I remember his comments and I honestly think he oversold it at
that point . And there 's some flexibility in here too . It 's 5 acres II minimum but there 's 3 options here that may allow something different . If
you have unusual topographic conditions . Maybe you have a peninsula
surrounded by a wetland and it 's got a very small buildable area and the
only thing you can do is unique and interesting and complex on that finger II
of land . Then you can determine , you and the City Council can make a
determination that it fits that criteria and you don 't even need to give it
a variance . Basically you just ascertain that it meets that criteria and
you can go with a 3 acre PUD or 2 acre PUD . If it 's adjacent to another
PUD , you may find that a small one is consistent with what 's across the
street so it 's okay and that 's another option . And the third one , and it 's
one that I 've used periodically is that you may have a very tough site
that 's in the transition area and you really want to' do something special
with it . Something that 's on the fringe of the downtown commercial area or
11
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 12
something that backs up to , well I 've got a good for instance . In fact it
came out of the discussions with the developer on that 137 acre tract . Do
' you recall that there 's a very difficult hillside east of Timberwood where
a power line runs just west of where the creek is that nobody can figure
out how to get to , much less develop . This particular developer , you know
' I was talking about trying to buffer Timberwood and I said , this parcel 's
difficult to get to , especially from Audubon Road . It 's going to be
difficult to serve . It 's going to need bridges . There 's some environmental
impacts and you 're not going to be able to do a whole heck of a lot when
' you get up there anyway because we have homes over the ridge . That I think
you should leave that residential and we ' ll access it somehow from the
west . Behind Timberwood . That might be an ideal candidate for residential
PUD and I don 't know how large that is because remember , it 's just a little
bit of buildable ground and then it drops off into the creek . That 's a
transition area . So you could designate a 3 acre PUD up on that hillside .
11 So I think you 've got some flexibility built in but by establishing a
minimum you avoid somebody real schlocky trying to push through something
in the middle of a single family neighborhood where it really doesn 't
belong .
Batzli : By making it smaller would you open yourself up to having builders
• create otherwise unbuildable lots and then trying to have them designated
as PUD 's?
Krauss : I wouldn 't put it past them .
Conrad: I like 5 acres .
Emmings: Okay . Anyone else have comments on that section? Well and
' I guess what I hear you saying is for the developer to get what he wants
and for the City to get something out of it and to also take into
consideration what 's surrounding it , it takes some , usually it 's going to
take a fair amount of ground . It 's not going to be a single lot .
Otherwise somebody 's going to get short changed .
' Krauss: Right .
Emmings: That makes sense to me I guess . Then on the proposed 504 . I was
wondering why , and if you look over at , on page 11 . It 's the new 20-505
I and under ( j ) , it says requirements contained in Supplement Regulations ,
off-street parking , landscaping and those others all may be applied by the
City as it deems appropriate . Then ( i ) it says , signs shall be restricted
and I 'm wondering why in 504 when we 're talking about coordination with
other zoning regulations we don 't have those over there and why we don 't
have a broad statement that it has to be coordinated with essentially all .
You know all of those specific ordinances because I guess what I 'm thinking
about is if this is going to apply to office and commercial , the sign
ordinance is always going to apply at least as a minimum kind of standard
and if they want to deviate from it , they 're going to have to win some kind
of special approval . And if after this is passed we pass the bluff
ordinance , we want to be sure that was caught here or the landscaping
ordinance .
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Planning Commission Meeting 1
April 3 , 1991 - Page 13
Krauss: A couple things . I think we possibly can combine some of these
things so they read better but when we 're asking for coordination with
other zoning regulations , right now it was never clear that once you had a
PUD that you had to have a site plan approval . I mean even a separate
application , a separate process . In a PUD you may do it all at the same
time . Market Square is the building at the same time you 're doing a PUD
but when we have a large scale PUD over 90 acres or 100 acres , you 're going
to first approve the plan and then over a 5 year or 7 year period they will
have individual buildings that come in . Each one of those individual
buildings should be required to be subjected to a site plan review and
should be , you know under the parameters established by that development
contract which may deviate from the ordinance but that 's okay because
you 've laid it out . Then what we 're trying to get into , I don 't know if
that jibes all that well with what 's on page 11 but that 's basically saying II
that we have standards that are in these sections . There 's no other place .
For example , when we approve Market Square , the way the ordinance is
drafted right now , every other section of the ordinance went out of the
window . There were no parking standards to review Market Square against .
Emmings: Well , maybe I 'm looking at this wrong . The way I look at this is II
this . If somebody comes in and says they 're interested in doing a PUD on a
piece of ground , we say look at all of our other zoning ordinances because
this is what we regard as , I don 't know , normal or desireable or whatever .
And you can propose what you want but be aware that this is what we regard
as what we like in the city and you can deviate from that if you 've got a
reason or you give us something else .
Krauss: Right . 1
Emmings: So I don 't know why that wouldn 't be true of virtually our whole
ordinance or certainly more sections than , I don't know why these are
listed here . I 'd be happy if there was just some kind of a catch all and
I don 't care if these are listed but there ought to be some kind of a catch
all that would catch not only other parts of the ordinance but new parts of II
the ordinance as they come on line in the future .
Krauss: I ' ll take a look at that . There 's some parts of the ordinance you II
wouldn 't want to trip occasionally like if something is a CUP in the BH
district but you 've permitted it under .
Emmings: . . .jargon so I won 't know what the hell he 's talking about . '
Krauss: Well a conditional use permit .
Emmings: That much I got .
Krauss: In the business highway district . If something is like a gas
station . If it 's a conditional use permit in a commercial district , you
don 't want to then automatically make it a conditional use permit in the
PUD . You 've already approved it in the PUD . You don 't want to be forced
to apply that section . You should make it go through a site plan review so II
that as a specific plan for that gas .station inside the PUD 's developed ,
you 've reviewed it and you 've confirmed to your satisfaction that it met
Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 14
the design standards you approved in the development contract . Now that
may mean it met the parking standards in the site plan ordinance or it met
' something that you found more suitable . But at least we can refer back to
that section and get some parameters to deal with .
11 Emmings: Is our procedure written now to do what you just said? To get
them back for a site plan on each individual building that comes in?
Krauss: No .
Emmings: Is that going to be redrafted along with this revision?
Krauss That 's why I call out the site plan review section under 20-504 .
Emmings: Okay . Okay .
' Krauss: And when you do a development contract , if we do a development
contract on a 100 acre site , the development contract will as a condition
of approval state each building shall be subject to a site plan review
procedure .
Emmings: Okay . Does anyone else have anything on 504?
Conrad: Well what are we saying about the standards? What direction have
you heard about some of the standards that we have in there? Slipping to
12 ,000 or 13 ,000 or 9 ,000 . Have we commented on that?
Emmings: You mean on the single family? The 506?
Conrad : I 'm looking at 504 , required standards .
Batzli : 505 will be his new required standards .
Krauss : The 504 we 're just talking about now is the 504 in the rewritten
ordinance . The 504 you 're referring to is the old ordinance . Confusing .
Conrad : We 're not at , okay .
Emmings: Let 's go onto the proposed 505 . Now what was your comment? What
did you want to ask Paul there? I didn 't understand it .
Conrad: Whether we believe in the standards that we set in the previous
ordinance . Whether they were , and that 's what we really didn 't get from
last week or the previous week 's meeting . Whether we were encouraging
PUD 's with what we could offer which was we do see lot sizes below the
15 ,000 square foot standard .
Emmings : I 'm not tracking that .
Ellson: I don 't either .
Emmings: I thought , first of all I thought that issue was covered in 506 .
In the proposed 506 . And I thought we talked earlier about the fact
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Planning Commission Meeting 1
April 3 , 1991 - Page 15
that , Paul 's going to rewrite that and he might be cutting it down to 11
something else .
Conrad: Yeah I guess , okay . Let 's wait until we get to 506 . '
Emmings : Okay . I guess as far as 505 is concerned , I don 't understand ( e ) '
under hard surface coverage and floor area ratio . Those things mean
nothing to me . I don 't know where they come from or what it would wind up .
Sep it 's like I said before , I don 't know when I read these things what the
development 's going to wind up looking like if it 's this number or another II
number .
Krauss: Well that 's where there 's an educational process that 's required . I
Hard surface coverage you 're familiar with I think . We have that standard
in each district right now . The hard surface coverages in here I think are
roughly comparable to what we have in individual districts and that 's kind
of interesting because again , going back to Market Square . One of the
primary premises for Market Square going as a PUD was because they couldn 't
meet hard surface coverage requirements . I think that 's okay to a degree
but again , don 't throw the baby out with the bath water . You don 't want to ,
have a 99% hard surface coverage site . You can 't do that and be compatible
with the PUD 's . So this is now putting in some minimal hard surface , max
hard surface coverage requirements that would apply to PUD 's as well as
they apply to non or regular district development .
Ellson: But where 'd the number come from? I agree with Steve . It doesn 't
picture anything to me that , you know we 're putting a stake in the ground
yet I don 't see that 's where the stake should be anymore than .
Krauss : What , the percentage?
Ellson: Yeah .
Krauss: Well if you have 50% hard surface coverage on a 10 acre site , 5
acres of it can be paved or buildings .
Emmings: I don 't know what that makes the place look like but I guess
maybe you don 't know that until you have a plan .
Krauss: This isn 't that different from what you have right now .
Emmings : I 'm not as uncomfortable with the impervious surface
requirements . Floor area ratio . What does that mean?
Krauss: Yeah , floor area ratio becomes important if you get multi story
development . Primarily . And maybe it 's premature in Chanhassen , I don't
know . Basically what floor area ratio is if you have a floor area ratio of I
1 and you have a 1 acre site , you can have a 1 acre building . Well that
might be a 10 story building with each floor is 4 ,300 square feet . Okay?
It ties into the gross site area . It 's a ratio between the gross site area
and how much building you can have on it . If downtown Minneapolis has
floor area ratios of 30 or 40 . You know the IDS building you have , I don 't
know how many acres of building on a relatively small site . It 's a
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 16
g uideline for intensity of development basically .
' Ellson: What 's an example of a 1 .8 building or 1 .5? Is that usually like
a 2 story building?
Krauss: No , you 'd have to have more . First of all , if you have a 10 acre
site , you can only develop 8 1/2 acres of it so and then you have surface
parking and what not . That might be a 4 story office building . If we want
to , I can probably give you some real examples .
Batzli : Is the floor area ratio calculated on the net though? Because the
hard surface coverage is calculated on the gross isn 't it? Or net? Do you
1 exclude wetlands on the hard surface coverage? I don 't remember anymore .
Krauss : Well I guess the way the ordinance is written right now , we 'd have
to exclude it yeah .
Conrad : Should exclude it .
1 Batzli : Okay . So that 's on the net . And the floor area ratio then is
also on the net?
1 Krauss : If we go back to the earlier section of the ordinance I would say
yes . We can clarify that but yes .
Emmings: I think we need some examples of what we 're talking about there .
Number one , do we need it at all? And number two , what does it mean? I
don 't know how you 're going to give us a feel for that but I think we need
it .
Krauss : I 've got some books that give illustrations of what it relates to .
I can give you that . Again , it may be premature in Chanhassen . I don 't
know when we 're going to see . Where it really comes into play is if you 've
got a high end office park with towers . Primarily . Then it really comes
into play . Because it gets to building massing . You know , do you want a
block of buildings that block out the sun or do you want , I mean if you 're
going up , then it 's got to be narrow because the building can only occupy
so much space . There 's a trade off that the designer has to go through .
So it may be premature in Chanhassen .
1 Conrad: Currently Paul the low density hard surface coverage , I 'm skipping
from floor area ratio , I don 't really know how important that is but we
haven 't had that standard . We have had the hard surface coverage standards
right? Let me bounce back to that . The low density hard surface coverage
under a subdivision . That was like 30%?
1 Krauss: That 's current?
Conrad: Yeah current .
Krauss: I don 't know .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April' 3 , 1991 - Page 17 ,
Conrad: I think it 's like 30% so basically what Paul is suggesting is
bumping it up to 50% . And I think , high density 's probably the same . Have II
you bumped up the other numbers here too? The office , commercial ,
industrial? Have those gone up a little bit? ,
Krauss: I 'd have to check Commissioner .
Olsen: They 're usually 60% , 65% and 70% . ,
Conrad: Yeah , so I think you bounced them up . I guess what Steve is
saying is let us , and it may make sense . We just have to see what it looks II
like to make sure that that 's what we want .
Emmings: And maybe tell us what the pros and cons are .
Conrad: Yeah . When you go from , in your residential neighborhood , when
you go from a 30% coverage to a 50% , that 's a lot of coverage . Again , if
it looks okay and it makes sense , we should do it but so far we haven 't had ,
a problem in the residential areas with that . If it encourages something
we like , it should do it . It 's sort of tough to deal with right now in
terms of ratios . I
- Krauss: Well I must admit , I 've used these ratios before but I never had a
development come close to them so they probably sat somewhat high and give ,
them some flexibility . On the other hand , it 's a minimum and we 've had
examples of people trying to push the minimum and you may want to have
something that you can fall back on and say you 've got to have at least
this . 1
Batzli : It seems that our numbers are usually used against us . Your
ordinance allows this . Why won 't you give it to me? '
Krauss: Well we 'll get you some more information on both of those .
Emmings: Well and see how they compare to what we 've already got and what II
we 've been doing in the past .
Batzli : I guess I 'm just kind of stunned by the floor area ratio of the
medium density residential as being 0 .5 . If you had a townhouse on a
pretty small lot , I would think that would be more of a problem . If you
had a 2 story townhouse or something . ,
Krauss: Well if you have a 2 story townhouse .
Batzli : What 's the minimum square footage for a townhome for a lot? What I
kind of a lot do you need? Is there any minimum?
Olsen: 20 ,000 . I
Batzli : Is it 20 ,000? Okay .
Krauss: Well currently there is but if you go with a PUD , you 'd have to
establish a new minimum . But if you had a 10 ,000 square foot lot and there
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 18
was an FAR of 0 .5 and you had 2 story building , you 'd only have 2 ,500
square foot of the lot on two floors and that 's -a pretty big unit . But
you 'd only have a quarter of the lot occupied .
' Batzli : True . I take it all back . Strike that from the record .
Emmings: - Any other .
Batzli : Inane comments?
Emmings: Thoughtless comments on section 505?
Batzli : I 'm sure I 'll have some if you give me a minute .
Emmings: We 're reaching our time limit here . 506? Ladd 's got something
with 506 .
Conrad: For the last two sections I 've had something with 506 . .lust tell
me which section we 're talking about .
Emmings: Well 506 . It 's time Ladd .
Conrad: Will you play back the tape that I had a few seconds ago Nann?
Basically it 's just , I 'm interested in what Paul feels are standards that
we ' ll be encouraging . It 's obvious that we haven 't done a great deal with
the standards to date . I haven 't seen too many coming in saying I want to
take advantage of that . It 's so attractive . I want to apply for a PUD so
' it just tells me that we haven 't been right for a PUD or the standards
don 't encourage . I guess I 'm tempted to go down to 9 ,000 and have us take
a look at that even though , when I say those things it means I 'm really
looking for something in return and the 9 ,000 is just not to pack in
additional lots . I think 9 ,000 can be handled effectively but again ,
remember what Lundgren had when they were playing with when they put them
on the 9 ,000 square foot lots . They had a lot of trees . They had a
hillside . They had some variety already built it . You can 't do that real
easily on a flat piece of land . We wouldn 't be happy with that so Lundgren
had some advantages .
Ellson: Plus , he had some . . .a certain percentage were the really small
ones but it wasn 't across the board .
Emmings: It wasn 't really very many .
Ellson : Right .
Ahrens: I wonder if we should talk about putting a certain percentage of
9 ,000 square foot lots? I don 't know if that 's even workable .
Krauss: There 's one item you might want to consider and it doesn 't only
apply here but it applies probably in regular subdivisions too . We have a
15 ,000 square foot standard lot requirement . There 's nothing that says how
buildable that 15 ,000 square feet has to be . I mean we try to make an
analysis of fitting a normal house on a lot when we approve a subdivision
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 19 1
but there 's nothing that says 9 ,000 or 6 ,000 has to be buildable or it
could be all wetland or whatever as far as the ordinance is concerned .
They 're covered by setbacks . You may want to at least establish , you know
if you 're going to a 9 ,000 square foot lot , that it has to be 80% useable
ground or some standard like that to make sure that you 're getting space .
Real space and not fictional space that causes us problems . I guess too ,
the 9 ,000 sticks in my mind because we saw an example of that being used .
Right now we have an average requirement that you 've got to be at 13 ,500 . 1
I mean why go through this for a net density increase of 1 ,500 square feet
a lot? If we get it down to 10 or 9 , we 're giving a 30% reduction in lot
size and that 's a pretty hefty number and you ought to be able demand
something in return for that .
Conrad: So let 's take that further . We 're decreasing the lot requirement
by a third and based on costs , based on development costs , how many dollars
does that equate to out in Chanhassen? Is that a $5 ,000 .00 benefit to the
builder?
Krauss: It 's tough to guess . If you 're just going on a square footage per 11
dollar or dollar per square footage requirement and a lot 's $45 ,000 .00 or
$50 ,000 .00 , you know a 30% reduction in lot area is pretty hefty . But a
significant percentage , if you 've got a $50 ,000 .00 lot , maybe $15 ,000 .00 of II
it is utilities and streets . Now that percentage reduction doesn 't equate
" directly to that but still . If you have a $50 ,000 .00 lot and you 're being
able to knock off $10 ,000 .00 of it or a fifth of the cost or a fourth of
the cost , that 's a pretty significant reduction .
Conrad: So what would the Planning Commission like to see done with that
money that the builder just saved? Brick exterior?
Ellson: Yeah . And give more landscaping per lot .
Conrad: We could have gotten that maybe in the first . . .
Emmings: It 's the quality of building and the landscaping . Aren 't those
the two keys?
Ellson: Open space . ,
Conrad: Open space is something else , yeah. We 'd want , what was the
number we might have saved? $5 ,000 .00 .
Krauss: Probably .
Conrad: When you negotiate , is that how you think as a planner? Ah , we
just gave him $5 ,000 .00 worth of value . Should I try to get that?
Again , I don 't care if we 're going dollar for dollar . That 's really
insignificant in my mind as long as , if we 're searching for our goals and
if our goals only cost a buck and the devdloper makes $4 ,999 .00 , that 's
okay with me but how do you negotiate Paul? What is it that guides you?
Krauss: Well we usually , and speaking for myself and maybe Jo Ann has a
comment on this too . I don 't normally , I mean the developers will always
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 20
throw numbers at you . This is going to cost so much and you can 't do it
because of that . Our reaction typically is , we don 't care . We 're not here
to make you a profit or to guarantee you that you 're going to do this . I
know that 's why you 're in business but we 're here to insure that certain
standards are met and you 're going to do that . I think it 's useful for
your thinking though , however , in this kind of a forum to say if this guy 's
going go save $5 ,000 .00 to $10 ,000 .00 on a lot , then at a minimum he should
11 be putting in $2 ,000 .00 or $3 ,000 .00 to make sure we 've got a premium
building exterior and another couple thousand dollars so that we have
premium landscaping and maybe another thousand dollars so the common spaces
in the development are dressed up ala Lundgren with entrance monumenting
and boulevard landscaping and those sorts of things . You know the
developer is still getting something back here . These are not dollars he 's
throwing into a pot that the City 's going to go buy a fire truck with .
These are dollars that he 's getting a premium development with that will
help him sell it .
Emmings: Is anybody , going back to Joan 's , I think the point that Joan
raised . What if we saw someone come in with a big development of all 9 ,000
square foot?
Ellson: Yeah , that 's the big scare right there .
Emmings : Would we even want to look at something like that?
Erhart: Would they meet the density standards? We 're not giving in on the
density standards .
Conrad: Well yeah .
1 Erhart : I 'm under the impression that that 's not a .
Krauss: You don 't have to . Keep in mind our low density standards though
are zero to four and the traditional density we develop at , we found in the
Comp Plan is 1 .7 . I mean that 's an acre so there 's a lot of flexibility in
there to get more homes in without busting through our density cap .
Conrad: So the zoning density or the guide plan density would still apply?
Emmings: So if you had a development like that , you 'd wind up with some
big chunk of open space .
Conrad: That 's what you 're hoping to do .
Krauss: You also get more homes . I mean between that 1 .7 and 4 there 's
clearly a lot of flexibility but you may well wind up with a lot of open
space too . That 's the intent and we can write that into the intent .
Erhart : In low density you say we can go to 4 units per acre with a 10 ,000
square feet average?
Krauss: But you never get to that . The reason being that you 've got to
put roads in and wetlands and there 's inefficiencies .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 21
Erhart : So the net is , what do you think the number is? If it 's not 4 ,
what 's the net?
Krauss: If you did grid streets and that kind of stuff?
Erhart : Well what we 'd normally see .
Krauss: Well yeah , what we 'd normally see is 1 .7 . 1
Batzli : And engineer , I love it . A slide rule would have been better .
But see , they don 't own the whole lot because the City 's going to own all
the streets and so if you 're trying to figure out what their lot size is .
Krauss: That 's the gross amount of space required to create a 15 ,000
square foot lot .
Erhart: 1 .7 gross , so I was asking what was net?
Krauss: I guess the net is , 15 ,000 square foot lot . That 's what you wind II
up with .
Erhart: I guess what I 've always been thinking all along here is that I
while someone may come in with a big development and have some lots at
9 ,000 square feet , when on the average they 've still got to be 15 ,000
square feet . I guess that 's the way the old ordinance reads .
Elison: That 's up for debate in a PUD . We 're allowing .
Emmings : The average was 13 ,500 wasn 't it?
Krauss: Yes . -
Ellson : In the PUD .
Emmings: In the PUD . i
Erhart : Could be .
Conrad: Minimum average .
Batzli : But let 's back up one step for just for a minute .
Erhart: Including open spaces , we actually let the average fall .
Conrad: So right now the average development , subdivision in Chan . Well
maybe I 'm mixing what Lundgren said . What 's the average density? 2 point II
something?
Krauss: 1 .7 . Outside of Lundgren . I mean we reviewed about 12 or 15
traditional plats that you 've approved .
Emmings: Those are subdivisions , not PUD 's? t
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 -- Page 22
Krauss : Right .
Conrad: Right . So there 's 1 .7 and what we 're saying right now is we can
go up to 4 because that 's the extent of our regulations . Basically it can
still be low density at 4 units per acre . I always thought it was 3 .7 .
Krauss : If we establish a minimum lot size of 9 ,000 , you 'll never get 4
units an acre because of park requirements , street requirements , because of
inefficiencies . You never lay out a grid . It 's not efficient . The
closest you 're probably going to get is 2 .7-2 .8 . Something like that .
iConrad: So we 're making it more dense . Basically what we 're saying is we
will allow a more dense PUD in exchange for brick exterior .
Ellson: Open space and maybe man made ponds .
Conrad: We didn 't get the open space because , we clustered the open space
but we 're not getting more of it .
Ellson : We 're not guaranteeing . I mean we can look at it and say , we
don 't like it . We haven 't given it up yet .
- Emmings: The problem is , you don 't know what it 's going to look like . I
mean that 's why I asked when we start out with . Looking at a plan , can you
tell if you 're going to look as nice as what they showed us on the slides .
Paul said no .
Batzli : If you looked at different streets in that development , they don 't
all look as nice as the one in the northeast corner that he showed us .
Emmings: Well no and when you take the picture you stand in a place where
it looks nice from .
Batzli : But those particular lots are very small and when you walk around
them , I mean you don 't have a yard in those lots .
Krauss : If I could clarify my comment earlier . If somebody brings to me a
plat cold can I tell them I 'm going to get the quality . The answer is no .
But when I take them through the development process and we develop
standards , or in this case PUD contract standards and conditions and
outline all this stuff , when we 're done I can tell you exactly what we 're
going to get because we ' ll have it on a piece of paper .
Emmings: Okay . You just raised another point and something that struck me
as , and this is totally unrelated and I know we 're over our time but I 've
got to bring it up before I forget it . When I drove down TM 5 the other
night and I was looking at all the buildings out in the industrial area out
11 there and what struck me is that there are a whole bunch of tall structures
besides the buildings . Big tanks of things . I don 't know what 's in them
but you know what I 'm talking about? And I would bet a million dollars ,
well $900 ,000 .00 , that when they showed us elevations of those building and
we approved those plans , there was not one of those tanks on there .
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Planning Commission Meeting 11 April 3 , 1991 - Page 23
Erhart : Which building are you referring to?
Emmings: I don 't know . There are several . There 's tanks that go up
taller than the buildings and it seems to me we 're getting hosed on this .
When they give us elevations , that elevation of the building , I naively
believed in the past that we were seeing what that was going to look like
and it 's a joke . We 've got to do something . I 'd like you to make a note
that something has to be changed so when we see an elevation , we see
everything that 's going to be on that site . Now I don 't think they
probably , I don 't know whether they intended to deceive us or not and I
have no comment on that but maybe it 's just naivety on my part . Maybe when II
an architect thinks of an elevation , it 's just the building . But if
there 's going to be big tanks , you know because we talked to them about
what they 're going to put on top of the building and where it 's going to be I
visible from but they don 't show us those great big tall tanks .
Krauss: Well we attacked that issue probably about a year ago I think .
Emmings: Oh . Where was I?
Krauss: What we started doing is when , I mean they would come in for
heating and ventilation permits to put bright , shiny chrome ventilators on II
top of a building that you can see from 6 miles away and we started
intervening in the building permits saying that 's exterior architectural
elements and you 're not going to be allowed to do that . If you are going
to put something up there , you 're going to have to do it flat . You 're
going to have to screen it . You 're going to have to be compatible because
you 're busting the integrity of the site plan that was approved by the
City . And we 've managed to do that several times . Two additions to
buildings that were afterthoughts because they didn 't know about it at the
time though is one that 's on the Press building and then Instant Webb and II that 's pollution control equipment that they were required to install last
year and I think I brought in some stuff to show you the screening that
went on one building and then at Instant Webb there 's virtually nothing you
can do over there . We have trees being planted around it . I
Emmings: But I know Rosemount has big tanks out there too and I don 't
remember seeing those .
Olsen: That was shown .
Emmings: That one I wasn 't sure about but there 's another building further II
down that way with big , tall green tanks and I never saw anything like that
on plans and I remember when that building was in here .
Ellson: I can 't picture what you 're talking about . Tanks?
Emmings: Well it 's like .
Ahrens: Are they in Chanhassen?
Emmings: Yeah . It 's on the other side of the railroad tracks . Right as
you go down , well I don 't know .
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Planning Commission Meeting
11 April 3 , 1991 - Page 24
Krauss: Oh , you know where it. is . It 's the plastics company . Empak .
Erhart : Those tanks were on the plan .
Emmings: Do you remember that? Okay .
Batzli : I don 't think they were on the elevations . I think they were
shown on the other .
Emmings: They weren 't on the elevations . I don 't remember them .
Olsen: They 're not on the elevation . They were on the site plan . It has
just a little circle there .
Emmings: Yeah , you 're looking down at a circle there . Well you know if
that circel 's 50 feet tall , I think we ought to know about it . Anyway ,
let 's go back to 506 . You 're going to rework that . Is there any other
1 direction from the commission to Paul on that one? This is a critical one .
I 'm not sold on 9 ,000 square foot lots . I don 't think it 's impossible . I
think I 'd want to limit it maybe to a percentage but I 'm not sure , because
I don 't know what it would mean to have a big development .
Ellson : Yeah , I 'm leaning toward that kind of thing too . I 'd hate to see
a big one come in .
Krauss: Let us take a crack at it and bring it back to you .
11 Batzli : My comment is potentially if there 's not enough difference between
15 ,000 and 13 ,500 , our only option isn 't necessarily to lower the 13 ,500
but it may be to raise the other end .
Emmings: What? Say more .
Batzli : I 'm saying that maybe 15 ,000 is too low . Maybe you want to raise
11 that instead .
Emmings: In the subdivision ordinance too?
Batzli : Yeah , raise that one . If we 're not comfortable with dropping to
9 ,000 but we want to encourage people to go PUD .
Emmings : Oh . So in the subdivision ordinance raise the minimum?
Batzli : Yeah . Just a thought .
Emmings: To encourage people to use the PUD .
Conrad: If I 've got 40 acres of land and each acre can have 3 houses on it
and we use density transfer to free up 20 'acres . Move 60 houses over to
the other 20 acres . Basically is it still a low density development or
have I moved it into a high , because now I have 6 unit per acre , how is
this categorized?
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 25
Krauss: It 's figured on that gross site and subtracting the wetland . I
Conrad : If they look like apartments , is it still low density? And maybe
you can 't do it . I don 't know what I 'm designing but .
Krauss : Could theoretically be . When you 're talking just about a density
parameter , I mean if you have a 40 acre site you can either have 1 building
on each acre or you could have a 10 story high building and still have the
same density . But I think Annette pointed out a very good point . As a
rezoning option , you 've got a lot of latitude not to buy it and we 're going
to have parameters in here that limit those kinds of abuses . I
Conrad : See you 're reading me the wrong way . I don 't mind that . I just
love , if we have a situation of opening up space , I don 't mind what they do
as long as the neighborhood doesn 't . As long as it fits into the
neighboring community , I don 't care if they 're stacked 2 , 3 or whatever .
That particular situation does free open space and can protect a lot of the
stuff so where I 'm coming from on that one Paul is I like it . I like to do
that . I want to encourage that . I think developers should have , if they
could build a house over here and they can cluster them , they can stack
them , they can make a higher density and as long as we feel comfortable .
Boy , that to me is a good PUD .
Ellson : Like his first example when he kept showing all the different ways 11
you could do that one .
Conrad: Right . And I was worried about some of our guidelines . Maybe it
just kicks into a different zoning category or a different guide plan . I
Krauss : Well that transfer of density is fundamental to the whole concept
of a PUD . And the higher the lot size , minimum lot size , the more you
undermind that ability , that flexibility . And right now we 're at the point II
where the development that 's allowed under the residential PUD is going to
look exactly the same as the development that 's traditional . Maybe they ' ll
squeeze in the odd lot here or there that 's a little different but
basically you won 't tell the differences . There 's just not enough
flexibility .
Emmings: And how are you going to get that? How are you going to change
that to get that?
Krauss: By lowering the minimum lot size and putting specific requirements I
for quality of product .
Emmings: Okay . Alright , we 're an hour and 10 minutes . My plan is totally II
out . Let 's get through this . 20-507 . I have a question on that one .
Proposed 20-507 . In ( b ) it says after the certificate of occupancy has
been issued and I was wondering why it would be after the certificate of
occupancy and not after the development plan is approved .
Krauss : I 'm sorry Steve . Where are we at?
Emmings: 20-507 on page 14 . Your proposed ( b ) .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 -- Page 26
Krauss : Oh ! Why is it worded that way?
Emmings: Why is it after the certificate of occupancy? I don 't know why
it wouldn 't be after the plan is approved you can 't make changes .
Krauss: That 's a good point . I think it should be changed .
Emmings : Does anyone else have anything else on that one? Then the last
thing I 've got is this . When Terry and John Shardlow , when they were here
last week , they were talking about the fact that one of the big advantages
is that you plan the whole property and then as each property comes in , it
has to meet those overall goals and restrictions . My question is , what if
somebody doesn 't? What enforcement tool do we have , ( a ) to make sure it 's
done in conformity with the plan in the first place? And ( b ) , to make sure
it 's not modified later? Outside of being in conformity with the plan . Do
we have an enforcement mechanism where we say either you straighten it out
and do it right or we 're going to come in and do it and we 're going to
assess it to either that property or to the whole development? Do we have
any effective tools to do that?
Krauss : As to the first part of the question , what do you do if something
deviates from the plan? That 's easy . Reject it .
Emmings : No . I 'm talking about let 's say we 've got the thing in place .
Krauss: Oh , after the fact . I thought it was two phased . But after the
fact you get back to the issue that we 've been trying to address
11 administratively because it applies to any building that has a site plan
approval . If something deviates from that site plan in any kind of
significant way .
Batzli : Who checks it?
Krauss : We do .
Batzli : So you three go out and check?
Krauss : Well , no . It 's easier than that . When somebody applies for a
building permit , the building permits are cycled over to us and we make an
evaluation .
Batzli : Okay , so in the plan it says redwood siding and they 're putting
aluminum siding up . Who would catch it? Who would look?
Olsen: The building department would usually catch that .
Emmings : Inspectors .
Batzli : So it 's up to the inspectors and you guys don't look at it?
Krauss : No , we do . Sharmin really handles our permit review program and
Sharmin goes and digs out the development contracts where necessary . She
knows most of them by now and the conditions that were specific to it .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 26
Krauss : Oh ! Why is it worded that way? I
Emmings: Why is it after the certificate of occupancy? I don 't know why
it wouldn 't be after the plan is approved you can 't make changes .
Krauss: That 's a good point . I think it should be changed .
Emmings: Does anyone else have anything else on that one? Then the last
thing I 've got is this . When Terry and John Shardlow , when they were here I/
last week , they were talking about the fact that one of the big advantages
is that you plan the whole property and then as each property comes in , it II
has to meet those overall goals and restrictions . My question is , what if
somebody doesn 't? What enforcement tool do we have , ( a ) to make sure it 's
done in conformity with the plan in the first place? And ( b ) , to make sure 11
it 's not modified later? Outside of being in conformity with the plan . Do
we have an enforcement mechanism where we say either you straighten it out
and do it right or we 're going to come in and do it and we 're going to
assess it to either that property or to the whole development? Do we have
any effective tools to do that?
Krauss: As to the first part of the question , what do you do if something II
deviates from the plan? That 's easy . Reject it .
Emmings : No . I 'm talking about let 's say we 've got the thing in place .
Krauss: Oh , after the fact . I thought it was two phased . But after the
fact you get back to the issue that we 've been trying to address
administratively because it applies to any building that has a site plan
approval . If something deviates from that site plan in any kind of
significant way .
Batzli : Who checks it? I
Krauss: We do .
Batzli : So you three go out and check?
Krauss: Well , no . It 's easier than that . When somebody applies for a
building permit , the building permits are cycled over to us and we make an II
evaluation .
Batzli : Okay , so in the plan it says redwood siding and they 're putting I
aluminum siding up . Who would catch it? Who would look?
Olsen: The building department would usually catch that . I
Emmings: Inspectors .
Batzli : So it 's up to the inspectors and you guys don 't look at it? 1
Krauss: No , we do . Sharmin really handles our permit review program and
Sharmin goes and digs out the development contracts where necessary . She
knows most of them by now and the conditions that were specific to it .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 27
Emmings: So she looks at the plan and then she can see whether the plan 's
in conformance but if they go out and do something different on the site
than they have on the plan , then you expect the inspector , building
inspector to catch it?
Batzli : So the inspector knows the entire development?
Krauss : Well we approve a set of plans . We sign off on the set of plans .
The building inspector knows that and if a two story building appears where
a one story building was approved .
Olsen: But they 're talking about like .
Krauss : More minor things .
1 Emmings: Well I don 't know if they 're minor . I guess when you 're talking
about landscaping . When you 're talking about , I don 't know . Whatever .
Krauss: I can 't tell you it 's a perfect process . I mean if a tree dies and
somebody doesn 't replace it , we 're not going to have our attention called
to it but if a massive amount .
Emmings: I 'm not asking how you 're going to catch that . I 'm asking what
are you going to do when you catch them? Do we have the tools in place so
that if we do catch them , we can do something about it?
Krauss: Yeah .
Emmings: Okay .
Batzli : I 'd rather know how we catch them?
Elison: It 's no different than any other subdivision or any other
ordinance or any other landscaping thing . This is maybe more strict but
it 's got to be enforced the same way as the other ones .
Batzli : That 's the point . It 's more strict and we don 't have a method in
place to catch it .
Emmings: But it 's easier caught by an inspector and if it 's not , then it 's
caught by a complaint of a neighbor . Otherwise it 's not .
11 Olsen: Well we do inspect , for commercial sites we do inspect those sites
before we sign off on the CO .
11 Emmings: Then what you do about it is what?
Krauss: If they deviate from , well one that did . The hotel across the
street . They relocated their trash dumpster . It 's supposed to be up
against the building and all of a sudden it 's an 8 foot monster that 's out
in the parking lot made out of tacky siding .
Olsen: There was actually nothing we could do . Let 's not get into this .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 28
Krauss: Yeah , unfortunately there was nothing we could do about putting it 11
back to where it should be but what we made them do is , we said if you 're
going to keep it on the parking lot , you 're going to design it to our
standards or we 're going to take you back in front of the Planning
Commission and Council .
Ahrens: Why wasn 't there anything you could do about it?
Krauss: Well this is really , it gets fairly complex but the City was '
involved in installing utilities in there because it 's a tax increment
project . It was the coordination , or lack of coordination between the
developer building the building , the City putting in the utilities and the II
site plan being approved that some watermains got put right where the
dumpster was supposed to be or the shut off valve so they just arbitrarily
moved it without telling anybody . So that was the developer 's problem . I
mean they just went and unilaterally did it . We caught it and sent them
some letters and said if it 's going to have to stay . First we asked them
to move it back . They said they couldn 't . We said alright , let 's work out 11
something and working it out was to cut it down to a 6 foot height , side it
in siding that 's the same siding the hotel 's made out of and landscape
around it . So we did catch something as minor as a dumpster . The solution
wasn 't identical to the approved plan but it was acceptable .
Olsen: But if they had refused to do that , we didn 't have a letter of
credit to cover . The CO had already been signed so it was one of those 1
that we didn 't have .
Krauss: It was an older project . We 've done things differently since
then .
Emmings: Let me ask you another example . Let 's say that we do a lot of ,
or that we 're very concerned about landscaping on a site . Let 's say like
the Valvoline site but let 's say it 's a PUD and we 've got standards in
there for landscaping the entire PUD . Let 's say that they do it right in
the first place and that weather conditions caused a whole bunch of trees , I
or something like that and they die . Can we go back and tell them , now
this year it isn 't , it doesn 't look like it 's supposed to . Can we go back
in? It 's 5 or 10 years after the whole thing 's developed . Can we go back II
in and say this isn 't looking like what was in the PUD and we want you to
bring it back up to the standard?
Krauss: Yeah. And it 's always been , it 's frankly something , I ' ll sound
Roger Knutson out on it because I want his confirmation on this but I 've
always gone after people , no matter how long . As long as they have an
approved site plan and it 's of record , I 've always treated it that they
have a permanent obligation to maintain the property at least in that
condition as a minimum and if they don 't , we go after them . Occasionally
you find things coming back like when a building transfers and the -mortgage
company wants you to sign off on something that says everything is hunky
dory and the City 's approved the building . You go out and inspect it and
find some trees have died , I 'm not going to sign off on this thing until
you 've reinstalled this stuff . There 's lots of ways we catch these things . II
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 29
Olsen : The site plan too .
Krauss : Okay , Jo Ann 's quoting 20-120 . Maintenance of Site . It shall be
the obligation of the owner to maintain the site in the manner consistent
with the approved site plans and building plans . Unapproved alterations
are in violation of this division so it 's a violation , direct violation of
the code .
Emmings: And every developed lot or site in the PUD will have a site plan
that 's separately approved?
,. Krauss : It will now , yes .
Emmings: From now on? Okay . I don 't have anything else . Does anyone
have anything else on this one?
Conrad: Brian mentioned intent . He wanted to get back to that .
Batzli : I don 't know .
Conrad: I have a problem with the intent section .
Batzli : I don 't like the intent section but I don 't know what I don 't
like .
Conrad: I have a real problem with the intent myself and I sat here and I
can 't fix it . It 's sort of like we want nice things but it 's not .
Ellson: But we ' ll let you know when they come through . It's basically
giving us that latitude .
Conrad: It 's a real general type of intent and as a developer , you could
say they 're looking for a better quality house . And you know , I guess I 'm
not sure , we have building codes and I 'm not sure that that 's the priority
that I have and I 'm just picking that out as one thing . Why do I grant a
PUD? It 's for all of these reasons but for some reason I 'm not comfortable
with how they 're worded . I want to encourage certain things . Better
quality and I 'm willing to give up some things but I haven 't been able to
get my arms around how we do that to make it real clear what we 're looking
at .
I/ Krauss: I think we can be more emphatic about the trade-off . That we can
beef up the language .
Emmings: Well but you know , that 's just what Shardlow said we shouldn 't
do . We shouldn 't say what are we going to get out of this . We shouldn 't
approach it that way even though .
tEllson : I say leave it open so it is fle)tible .
Emmings: Maybe we do want to say that but you know , what he 's saying is
you 've got a subdivision ordinance . If the developer wants to do something
other than the subdivision ordinance , then he ought to come into the City
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 30
and he ought to say I 've got a different kind of idea and enter into
negotiations with the City to do something that 's other than what the
subdivision ordinance already allows .
Batzli : But see I 'd rather have an intent statement that says that .
Emmings: Well maybe what we 're saying is , is just that . As an
alternative , and here are some of the things that we in the City of
Chanhassen value . We value open space . We value high quality
construction . We value landscaping of a certain kind of whatever and let
it go at that I don 't know .
Conrad: Well that 's getting closer to what I 'm comfortable with .
Krauss: We ' ll be happy to take a shot at that . I just feel kind of , I
flipped through his model ordinance though just to see what they had for
intent .
Emmings: It 's just like this .
Krauss : But it 's briefer .
Emmings: Yeah . No , I compared the two and I was surprised at that because
well . I was surprised .
Ellson: So we 're basically saying , don 't bother unless you can justify on
one of these grounds , at least one?
Emmings: Except that 's an aggressive statement and I don 't think we want
to do that .
Ellson: Well not in so many words , you 're right . I
Conrad: But you also want to tell the developer something . In other
words , to leave it foggy doesn 't help anybody because then it gets in here II
and you 're going to be saying that 's not a PUD and that 's fair either .
Staff has to know what we 're talking about .
Emmings: It 's easy to say , why the hell didn 't you tell me? 11
Conrad: Absolutely and we 'll be down , we 'll have a couple of meetings and
we 'll say , well we 're not getting anything out of this .
Ahrens: I don 't think the intent statement though will ever be specific
enough to really address all those . I mean we 're just going to make it I
vague in a different kind of way .
Emmings : It could be more focused I think . This is what we would hope to II
have in any subdivision . These things . even a straight subdivision you 'd
hope to have these things .
Ahrens: Right . I know . I know that but if we just say we have a vision
of Chanhassen that we have nice architecture and good .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 31
Emmings : I don 't think you 'd want to say nice architecture .
Ahrens : Well I mean , I was paraphrasing what you were saying .
' Emmings : Well quality construction is saying something a little different
I think . I think that means something to a developer . I don 't know .
Ahrens : But I think most developers would come in and say I 'm putting in
substandard quality construction .
Emmings: You 're right . Unless somebody else has something burning , let 's
let them take another crack at it . Paul tells me by the way that our
agendas are going to get busier on real projects . He 's getting a lot of
calls on people wanting to develop .
Erhart : A lot of these things are in the extended MUSA line . . .
Krauss : No , people are starting to make requests in the new MUSA line
understanding that it 's contingent upon the Metropolitan Council approval .
11 Erhart: You 're going to handle those anyway?
Krauss : Yeah . We might as well because had we not proposed to move the
MUSA line , they would have come in with a request to concurrently move the
1 MUSA line and do their subdivision anyway . We 've already got that process
underway .
Erhart: We could end up with a lot of these things contingent upon that .
Krauss : Well , hopefully the window is not that large .
' Erhart : Are you feeling good about the MUSA line expansion today? Have
you heard anything?
Krauss: Yeah . I do have some new information on it . Do you want that
now?
Emmings: No . You 've only got 5 minutes left out of the landscape .
Ahrens : Yeah , let 's go .
Emmings: We 'll get to that .
Krauss: I 've got some update items .
LANDSCAPING ISSUES PAPER.
Emmings: Okay , let 's shift gears into the landscape ordinance then . I
guess this one is not even , it doesn 't seem to me anyway . Wait a minute .
Is this the one where you asked us some specific questions or was that the
bluff one? Or there 's the bluff one . Okay . What can we do on this one to
11 get it going? It 's a little hard to know . I guess one of the major things
you wanted us to look at was the goal section huh?
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 32 I
Krauss : Yeah . This is more of an issue paper . Before trying to draft an
ordinance I think we need to know what we 're trying to achieve . And for
that to happen , I tried to pull together all the various sections in the
ordinances that we have that pertain to landscaping and there 's a lot of
bits and pieces here and there and you really need to look at it in an
integrated way .
Emmings: Is the thought here that there will be one landscape ordinance
and all the other sections will reference it?
Krauss: That would ideal . The structure of the ordinance is probably such II
that you have to have a separate one . Subdivision code if you go with
that .
Emmings : Why? I
Krauss : It 's in a whole different section of the ordinance . It 's not in
the zoning ordinance . I
Emmings: Well you could do it by reference . Should that be the goal? Is
that something that would be desireable?
Krauss: Well I think it is . You want a legible understandable ordinance .
Not something that the three of us understand because we work with this
things for years and we 've finally figured it out but nobody else
understands it because it 's in all different sections and it 's
contradictory or whatever . Ideally it will be in one spot and
understandable . One of the comments I have is that the standards that we
develop have to be understandable by reasonably intelligent people who are
not necessarily professionals . I made the point about percent opacity . I
don 't know what it is .
Emmings: Well and there 's another . I know I 've been at a couple of City
Council meetings where they 've said , and we 've talked about it here too .
The fact that we 've got now in the subdivision ordinance one tree per lot
requirement . I know that Dick Wing on the City Council , in fact he called II
me last night and again just said , he wants and thinks he has support for
on the City Council an ordinance that would call for 3 trees per lot . That
sounds good to me but we have other things in here that say , or on some
applications it 's 1 tree per 40 feet and I think he thought that was kind
of silly . Those are some of the things that I know have been motivating
the City Council is just the part that applies to subdivisions and just
generally wanting heavier landscaping .
Krauss : You know I think the review of the Jiffy Lube or whatever . Rapid 11
Oil .
Emmings : Valvoline . 1
Krauss : Valvoline . Focused in on what kind of standards we have . For
example , the landscaping standards we have for large parking lots in terms
of percent that have to be landscaped and all of that are quite good . I
mean that 's a good section of the ordinance but then when we get to the
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 33
j perimeter of the parking lot and we get , well you have to have 1 tree every
40 feet . Well what does that do? And we basically have to find ways to
misinterpret or reinterpret the ordinance to get what we want because if
we 're held strictly to the minimum requirements as true minimums , it
doesn 't work . I think more of what you wanted to do was establish goals in
the ordinance saying that you want to establish landscaping inside the
parking lot . You want to establish buffer screenings around the more
obnoxious sections . You want to establish perimeter landscaping and I like
the idea of saying the minimum you 'll spend is tied to the building costs
but you 're going to achieve these goals and if it 's going to cost more than
that , that 's fine because those were only minimum numbers . One tree per 40
or other ratios in my mind don 't get at the real issue and that 's the goal .
Batzli : But maybe the goal isn 't to screen the parking lot but to break up
the .
Krauss: Right .
Batzli : So maybe that meets the goal . One tree per 40 feet could easily
break up the monotony of looking at a parking lot .
Krauss : I 'm not sure that it does .
Fllson : 40 feet inbetween?
Krauss : You have a 2 1/2 inch wide tree every 40 feet .
Batzli : Well they won 't be 2 1/2 inches . I mean granted when you first
plant them but eventually they 're going to grow . The question is , what can
you require and when they do get big , what 's it going to look like?
Conrad: Not in your lifetime it won 't be screened .
Batzli : No , but that 's my point . If the intent isn 't to screen when
you 're to plant a tree that 's going to get to be 40 feet tall in 25 years .
Krauss: That 's where you 've got to focus your goals . Brian , if you 're
looking at the perimeter of a parking lot , the Market Square parking lc-t .
The intent of that is not to screen it so that nobody knows there 's any
cars in there and there 's no life in there . It 's a retail center . It 's
supposed to be a busseling hub type of activity . If it 's not , it 's not
looking right . But on the other hand , it 's a tremendous expanse of
asphalt . One of the most hideous examples I know of is on TH 12 in
St . Louis Park behind Fuddruckers or whatever it is where they just kind
of , there 's an office building with just a big slab and from the highway
all the way to that thing it 's just black . The only thing that breaks it
up is white lines . You really want to avoid that kind of , you actually
have micro climates you develop in these places . The winds whip around in
there and you get dust devils and it 's hotter in the summer and colder in
the winter . You want to avoid that . So on the perimeter of those parking
' lots you want asethetic plantings . You 're not looking to obscure the
stuff 's that in there but you 're looking to break up the monotony and set
apart that this is a public street . Here 's a boulevard and here 's a
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 34 1
private parking lot and want to obtain that . You do that typically through
rolling berms . Through lower scale plantings . Through scattering of over
story trees . Then if you 've got something you really want to screen , like
a tower or garage doors or something else , that 's when you do the heavy
conifers or you require that they bring a wing wall out and other things .
So that 's why I 'm trying to get you to focus in on , what do you want to
get .
Erhart: So are you able to write that ordinance? 1�
Emmings : I hope so .
Erhart : To screen commercial and . . . in a better way than we 've got now?
Krauss : Oh yeah . That 's not hard . I
Erhart : Yeah because I think the 40 feet , while yeah maybe 50 years from
now it might be good . The other approach to that is make it 20 feet or
they come up with an alternative .
Emmings: Why do you want to talk about trees? Why don 't we talk about the 11
tall shrubs and everything else?
Erhart : I think that 's been said?
Emmings: Well it isn 't though . Right now all we 've got are trees . I
Ahrens : . . .minimum standards? Is that what we 're trying to talk about?
Emmings: Yeah .
Ahrens : Well , how do you even set those? '
Emmings: I guess Paul wants to say do it with cash and then see how far
the cash carries you and see if that does the job . And if it doesn 't , you 11
require more .
Krauss: More because you 're required to meet the goals . By the way , again
I didn 't develop that cash ratio but it 's one I 've worked with for probably
about 12 years .
Emmings : Does it work? I
Krauss : Yeah , it works very well . I 've only had one building that was
proposed in Opus , but not by Opus on property that had been sold . The
standards appeared not to work . It was a 10 story office building they 're II
proposing . The landscaping was hideous and they claimed that it exceeded
our minimum expenditures and I couldn 't make them spend anymore because II that ordinance didn 't have goals in there to compare it to . Well to make a
long story short , I found out the developer was lying about the building
cost and when you actually put in the true cost of the building and got
that ratio -up to where it should be , it worked . I
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Planning Commission Meeting
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' Erhart : What would happen if the lot was completely wooded? All you 've
got to do is preserve .
Emmings: No , it says that in here . That counts . What exists on the site
counts toward the requirements .
Erhart : In this dollar approach it counts?
' Emmings: Well I don 't know but there 's a provision in here that says that .
Erhart: In the dollar approach?
Emmings: Well how do you figure that out then? Yeah .
Krauss: I don 't know . There 's not a direct trade off . There 's no value
placed on a 30 inch oak over a 4 inch birch or anything like that . We
could clarify that because I know it 's in here but it 's not directly in
1 there either .
Erhart: One of the things , if you 're buying a wooded lot , this applies to
industrial/commercial . He 's paying for the wood already and it seems kind
of redundant to have to put in another $50 ,000 .00 worth of landscaping
because it 's wooded .
Ellson: It would look nice though wouldn 't it?
Krauss: But even on a wooded lot , I mean what 's the machine shop? Behind
the Press . That 's on a very nicely wooded lot and they did a halfway
decent job of preserving a lot of the trees , except the front end of that
is very intensively landscaped around their parking lot .
Farmakes : Ver-Sa-Til?
Krauss: Ver-Sa-Til . And I could take a look and see if it conforms but
I 'll bet you that that 's pretty , what they put in front was pretty
consistent . If we have some flexibility to make a value judgment , say well
you saved 30 oak trees out back and that 's worth something so therefore , as
long as you 've achieved the goals up front , we 'll let the minimum dollars
your spend slide . That 's the flexibility you have too .
Emmings: Right . You can say this is what you have to do unless , that it 's
adequate . Then they may just have to focus on the areas that disturbed by
the construction .
Erhart: Back to the Dick Wing thing here . Are we discussing that right
now? The idea of having .
Emmings: Anything you want?
Erhart: We 're just open here? Great . What about football . His proposal
is that what? We require that the builder in at the time of development
put 3 trees on every lot instead of 1?
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 36 1
Emmings: He 's talking there specifically I think about the subdivision
ordinance that now requires 1 tree .
Erhart: So he thinks that we should put in 3 not knowing where the guy 's
going to put his driveway and really what the general landscaping is? Do
we know where those 3 , are those 3 going to be right at the curb?
Ellson: Oh , we 're not designating where I don 't think . '
Krauss : Dick 's talked to me about it quite a bit . I don 't want to speak
for him but I think I know where he 's coming from . Right now all we
require for landscaping is that you seed or sod any disturbed area .
Anything you 've graded on the property needs to be seeded or sodded .
Batzli : Since when? 1
Ahrens : That 's not true .
Krauss: Yes . Well , it 's been true for 10 years but it 's only been enforced I
for the last 2 .
Ahrens: It hasn 't been enforced for 2 years . '
Batzli : Be that as it may , continue .
Ellson: Start calling .
Krauss: Yes . Tell Sharmin about it . We 've been taking escrow. . .but
anyway,. So it requires that plus it requires the installation of one tree
in the front yard area if there 's not already trees present . So if you
build in a wooded lot and you have a tree in your front yard , there 's no
requirement . Now what Dick was asking for , he came through a couple of
versions of this was that you have maybe two trees in the front and one in
the back and a couple would be hardwoods at the very least because we 've
lost so much of the hardwood forest . Dick actually started out wanting
more than that and I said well , tie this into cost a little bit too because
we 're assuming for our escrowing of funds , that each tree has a value of
$250 .00 so 3 trees , you 're adding a cost of $750 .00 to the lot . I
Emmings : Well , but now a developer is buying large quantities of trees
isn 't going to pay that kind of money for them is he?
Krauss: Well often times what happens with the larger developers is they
give , they cut deals with the nursery and they give them certificates to
buy this stuff over there . So yes , there 's other ways of doing it . I
support Dick 's suggestion but I guess in my opinion it doesn 't go far
enough .
Emmings: That won 't make him unhappy . I
Krauss: Yeah . Well I 'm not sure that you want a regimented 1 tree here , 2
trees there . '
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Planning Commission Meeting
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Ellson: Exactly .
Farmakes: Why can 't you take an amount or percentage? I mean when we
built our house they also , I mean you 've got that in here but the builder
does that . They sit down and they say , they take a percentage of the home
that 's being built and that 's always ate into it at the end . When you get
all the overhead costs and then you start chopping into that landscaping
' budget at the end . That 's why a lot of people have dirt out in the back of
the house .
Krauss: Well the reason for the seed or sod is not only aesthetic , it 's
erosion control . There 's a valid reason for that beyond the aesthetic
issue . I guess my own personal belief is that yeah , a lot of people have
' landscaping budgets built into the thing so you 've got $5 ,000 .00 to spend
or whatever it is with your home . A lot of builders don 't do that . I 'd
rather not see the City in a position of approving a mulberry bush over
here and hackberry bush over there and that kind of thing . I mean we
' clearly have an interest in over story type trees because that 's the view
you get as you 're going down the neighborhood . Is this a cornfield that
has some houses plopped into it or is this a boulevard? The thing when you
11 go with just limiting yourself to the three trees or however many trees you
settle on , what that doesn 't address is what is the overall plat look like .
And what we don 't have in our subdivision code now is an overall
landscaping plan requirement . Now Jo Ann required Klingelhutz to put in a
j landscape berm along the highway and in a couple of other places with Lake
Riley Hills . Strictly speaking we exceeded , if you strictly interpret the
ordinance , we exceeded the bounds of what the ordinance says . But we want
to have that legitimized and we 'd like to be able to do that more . Then if
you have that overall landscaping scheme where you can have boulevard
plantings . You have the more obnoxious things screened off , then if you 're
' requiring additional 1 or 2 trees per lot in an appropriate place and then
you 've got a pretty nice package . Then the icing on the cake Jeff is what
you would do with your landscaper . Maybe the first year , maybe the third
year when you can afford it .
Emmings : But any homeowner , I think it 's real important to get those trees
in there by the developer because any homeowner is going to take care of
' his yard and he 's going to take care of foundation plantings and shrubs and
things like that .
' Batzli : No . No .
Emmings : No?
Batzli : No . Walk through my neighborhood and you get some people who are
either transitory or single for one reason or another and their home is as
stark as the day they bought it 6 years ago .
Ahrens: I think 3 trees is a good idea . I mean it 's a good idea . There
are very few lots , very few houses that are built on lots that don 't need 3
trees . I mean maybe in the very expensive areas where the lots are
completely wooded but that 's not the majority of lots in Chanhassen . I
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 38
don 't think 3 is unreasonable at all . In fact most need a lot more than
that .
Farmakes: My point , rather than taking a number was if you took a
percentage of what they were spending on the house . Whether it 's commercial II
development or residential and they brought in a plan as to how they could
best utilize that money in that particular lot . Let 's say the lot could
only really accommodate 2 trees? Then they could put it into other areas
of shrubberies or hedge or whatever .
Krauss: That 's essentially what we do for everything except single
family . There 's a philosophical question I think you might want to think
about and I 've got some personal beliefs but that 's irrelevant here .
Single family home , I mean the home is your castle type of thing . The City '
has some certain vested rights . I think we have a right to have acceptable
looking boulevards . Attractive looking boulevards . I think we have a
right to not destroying whatever natural forest we have left and making
sure that things are put back . But I really tend to trend very lightly in II
terms of going beyond what an individual homeowner can do on their
property . If you asked us to do landscaping plans like that per house , I
mean we can certainly administer that . We do it for everything else right
now . It 's a lot of work because we have more single family development
than anything else . I 'd personally be relunctant to do it .
Emmings : I don 't think we should . I don 't think we should get into ,
regulating foundation planning .
Batzli : I don 't think so either .
Emmings: For example , when we talk about trees , I think we should .
Ahrens: I don 't foundation plantings either but trees . We already require II
1 . I don 't know where 1 came up .
Emmings: And Jeff I think too , if you 've got a smaller lot where 2 trees , II
or where it 's a requirement to have 3 trees and 2 were going to fit , you
don 't have to think of it all in terms of maples and oaks . You can think of
it in terms of maybe they plant 2 crab apples or a hawthorne or something
that 's . . .
Erhart: Let me offer another idea here . I 'm adamantly opposed to getting
into putting trees , being involved in putting trees on people 's lots .
Another approach to this , I know what Dick 's trying to get to and I think
we all want to get to , and I think Paul 's saying it without really getting
himself clear . What you really want is boulevard trees . And instead of
looking at it as per lot , let 's go back to what we 've got and let 's view it
as , let 's require the developer to put in boulevard trees every x amount of
feet and they have to be this kind of a tree . And the tree has to be
within so many feet of the curb because I 'll tell you , anything beyond
about 4 feet is , to me that 's the homeowner 's property and we don 't screw
with that . i
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 39
Batzli : Well that 's the interesting thing is they put the boulevard trees
not in the boulevard right-of-way . I mean they require boulevard trees but
it 's clearly in the homeowner 's lot .
Erhart : It is but really , I mean there is a certain area there that is
almost pseudo public , the first few feet and I don 't know what that number
is . Take an approach to require the developer to put in boulevard trees so
' many feet apart and so far .
Batzli : Basically within the right-of-way .
Erhart: Yeah , I guess it could be within the right-of-way . Then you
aren 't messing around with those lots and see therefore you avoid the
problem with some guy 's lot is 150 feet wide and the next guy is 30 feet
' wide and where do you put the trees? You avoid all that and you just put
in boulevard trees . I think it accomplishes what we want without getting
into this individual .
Batzli : They 'd better be salt hardy .
Emmings : But it sounds like you 're going to see a tree .
Erhart : But isn 't that what you want?
' Emmings : Well I don 't know . I don 't know .
Ahrens: Tim , I live on Lake Lucy Road where there 's a 20 foot easement
' along the side of the road . Where would you put the trees? I mean if
there 's a trail easement .
Erhart : Why wouldn 't you put the tree between the trail and the street?
Ahrens : Because there 's an easement there for utilities . I mean they
could come and dig it up I imagine anytime .
Krauss: The first 10 feet . There 's a problem . I think your point is well
taken . That what you want is boulevard trees .
Ellson: Not necessarily .
Krauss: Well part of what you want to achieve is streets that ultimately
have tree lined streets . I think the idea of having a tree in the back yard
isn 't a bad one if there isn't any back there but there 's a problem putting
the tree in the boulevard itself . I know you call it a boulevard planting
but our maintenance folks , first of all they plow snow up and they
occasionally go up on the curb . The cable TV company comes in and puts
their stuff in . The first 10 feet back from the right-of-way is often used
for utility work plus you do have salt intolerate trees and that kind of
stuff . But I don 't know , do you really want it regimented up and down?
Ellson: No . I think that 's what we want to get away from .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 40 1
•
Krauss: The way we 've done it now , granted it 's only 1 tree but we said II it 's in the front yard and they can integrate it into a landscaping plan in
whatever way it fits for them .
Ellson : I prefer variety of trees also . I don 't think we should regulate I
that that should be a sugar maple or whatever .
Emmings : What if someone wants a swimming pool or tennis court and they
want it completely out in the sun?
Krauss : That would be in their back yard anyway .
Batzli : But once they move in , they could cut it down I suppose .
Emmings : That 's another issue just like we were talking about before . If II
we 're going to require them up front , do they have to be there later on?
Farmakes : The trees that are on CR 17 , those that were planted over there
by New Horizon over there .
Krauss : The ones that are dead?
Farmakes: Yes . The intent of those boulevard trees I guess worry me a
bit . I believe if people put the stuff on their own property , that they
have a better chance of reaching maturity .
Olsen : That was on private property . That 's not a boulevard tree .
Krauss; But they don 't perceive it that way .
Farmakes: It sure looks like the intent , I mean the way they 're all lined
up in a row .
Krauss: Typically , if you get a tree in your front yard , you 're going to
maintain it . I mean somebody might decide to chop it down or let it die
but most people would take care of it .
Erhart: Those things aren 't boulevard trees , that 's a screen . I 'm II referring to a boulevard tree that the object is to shade , ultimately in 40
years , shade the street .
Ellson: I don 't feel that I need boulevard trees so I don 't agree with
that it has to be a boulevard tree .
Emmings: That 's the kind of street I grew up on . There 'd be the sidewalk , II
the boulevard and the trees and the street . There were elms all up and
down .
Ahrens: I thinkk that looks real nice but I 'm just wondering where the 11
boulevards are .
Erhart: We have to define that but I guess . I
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 -- Page 41
Ahrens: There are easements that are constantly being torn up by the City .
At least out where I live they are .
Emmings: Somehow , I think everybody agrees we want more trees or we 'd like
' to see more trees . You may not want to see more trees on every single lot
but generally want more trees and I don 't know how you 're going to .
Conrad: I like a couple of things that have been said and they all make
sense . I think we need a minmum for lots in new subdivisions and whether
that 's 1 , 2 or 3 , we 've got to figure that out . I think we need an overall
landscaping plan for , and that 's what Paul and Jo Ann have said . So for a
subdivision that makes sense . And I really agree , I 'm on everybody 's side
here . I really agree with what Tim said . I care about boulevards and
entryways to Chanhassen . I care about the major arteries . I guess I
really don 't care what somebody does to their own property . That 's their
business . I do believe that there should be minimums . Otherwise we could ,
I think we have to reforest what was taken down . Was farmed . So I think
there are minimums . I don 't care if it 's 1 , 2 or 3 . We 'll figure that out
but I do like things like some standards . Like when we have the new
highway , 212 coming through . Do we care about the entryway? Do we care
about , are we an entryway to the Arboretum? Do we care? Do we care how
TH 5 is landscaped all the way down from Chanhassen to the Arboretum?
Could be pretty if we really planned it . On the other hand , maybe it 's too
comprehensive . Too complex . Maybe we can 't do that . You know , I do care
about an entry way to a new development . I do care about the boulevards in
that once you get off into some of the feeder streets , I don 't care
anymore . All of a sudden you 're back into individual properties . So I
think I 've taken a little bit of everybody 's approach in residential areas
but for Chanhassen I think . Do we care how TH 5 is landscaped? It stinks
right now . Just absolutely stinks and we 're talking about , you know we 've
had some opportunity to work on one property but do we care? Do we care
' about sugar maples? Annette said no . Sugar maples is not a big deal in
Chanhassen . Do we care about greenery? In the wintertime . Do we care
about , is that just something that , do we only care about greenery in the ,
you know we 've got 8 months of bad weather here where trees don 't really
grow . Do we really care what it looks like those other 8 months? I think
we , you know I 'm talking some very philosophical things and maybe we can 't
take care of TH 5 and maybe we don 't care how the Arboretum really fits in
and if we should reinforce it as a major theme . But on the other hand ,
maybe there is an opportunity to look at some of those .
Emmings: I think it 's a great idea and I never thought of it . Because
when we do the corridor study on TH 5 , why don 't we develop a landscape
plan and each property as it comes in is going to have to conform to that .
Conrad: See that makes sense to me .
Emmings: Why don 't we do that?
Conrad: I don 't know . •
Erhart: Well we are doing a landscape as part of the TH 5 .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 42 1
Ahrens : Isn 't the State contributing? I
Emmings: Yeah , but are they doing it the way we want to do it? Who 's
doing it? '
Krauss We 're doing it . It 's an HRA project . As TH 5 comes through
downtown Chanhassen , there are paving treatments , there are landscaped
monuments at each interchange . I think there 's even possibly going to be
some special lighting .
Ahrens: He means all the way down . ,
Emmings: Yeah . What I see Ladd talking about is really a lot more global
than that . And maybe it 's clumps of evergreens with here and there with
apple trees going down that bloom in the spring or something like that .
Ellson: I think that Lake Drive . . .on the Klingelhutz development there .
It 's just greak with all that pine and stuff like that . That sort of
thing .
Emmings: You know what? I wonder if we couldn 't , there are people at the
Arboretum with expertise to landscape . Why wouldn 't they do that for us in II
our interest?
Conrad: Well Peter Olin , if you 'll recall , came in here and suggested that II
we .
Erhart : I 'll go beyond that . Dave Headla and Barb Dacy and I had lunch
with Peter Olin one time . . .at the direction of the Planning Commission . . .
Very nice lunch and he made it quite clear to us that Mr . Olin was
available on a consulting basis and the City of Chanhassen . . .
Emmings: Yeah . He told us we were stupid but he didn 't tell us how to do
things .
Erhart: . . .but that was the way it ended up .
Emmings: Okay . We can do it ourselves . He 's not that important . '
Ahrens: We just have to go out to the Arboretum and look around . There 's
lot of trees out there .
Batzli : Just go out there with a shovel .
Conrad: That 's real tacky . You know Peter was in here complaining about
how we 're doing the comprehensive plan because we didn 't care about the
Arboretum . How we 're going to divide 41 and some properties that abutted
to him and didn 't want to sell and wanted to turn it into green space for
him and I 'm real surprised that we couldn 't get some interest .
Emmings: What can we do to get Paul going to take into account the things
that have been said here tonight?
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 43
tKrauss: I don 't know . When I laid out the goals 1 thru 7 , page 1 and 2 ,
did I say anything that people don 't agree with? Did I overlook something
that should have been incorporated?
Conrad: Well you 've got the words there . I think under point 5 , to be
investigated . Absolutely and that probably interests me a great deal .
' When you use the word boulevard , I 'm really looking at TH 101 . I 'm looking
at TH 5 . I 'm looking at major entrances and exits . Major places where we
can have a very definite impact on , visual impact on our own residents and
on people that are driving through . I think that 's really critical . I
think we can do something more significant than the architectural standards
that we 've been talking about . This is a really positive thing in terms of
' greenery and what we can do both for winter and summer . That number 5 is
broader for me and I like that one . I think that 's really significant .
Emmings: An example of what you 're maybe talking about is TH 41 between TH
7 and TH 5 . It has a very , especially on the TH 5 side , has a very
distinctive feel of it 's own from all the pine trees planted in there and
there 's no reason we couldn 't do that on a lot of the major roads . That 's a
real good idea . So one goal would be , well I don 't know if this is a goal .
I think one thing I hear everybody saying is we want an over , in the
subdivision ordinance we want an overall plan for the subdivision that will
take into account the boulevard and things like that and then we 'd want to
' set minimums for each lot . We 've already got it covered in the PUD because
they have to have a landscape plan so that 's a separate item I guess . We
want to take account of major entrances into the City and the major
thoroughfares .
Krauss: That is something that is valid and needs to be done but it
wouldn 't be in the ordinance because these are public improvement projects
so the way we instigate .
Emmings: Do they have to be? If we have an overall plan for what TH 5 's
going to look like , at least as far as the landscaping along the highway
goes , then when that property is developed . It 's sort of like , that 's when
it gets done by the developer .
' Krauss: There are two things to that . When TH 5 is expanded , we 're going
to want to have a landscaping plan within the right-of-way at major
intersections of what we do . Then beyond that you 're going to want to have
some sort of a landscaping theme ideally in a corridor whereby adjacent
properties , when they 're developed , reflect that theme . I 'm not prepared
to do that part of it in a landscaping plan yet until we 've gone through
that corridor analysis and we 've developed some specific standards . But I
don 't think that should stop us from going ahead and getting a landscaping
plan in place that deals with development throughout the city right now .
Conrad: What did you just say Paul? You want the standards in place first
before we do the plan?
Krauss: Well , we need the general standards that apply to everything every
place in the city .
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Planning Commission Meeting 1
April 3 , 1991 - Page 44
Conrad: Like on the individual lots?
Krauss: Yeah . As we go through a corridor study on TH 5 , you may well II develop specific standards for properties adjacent to the TH 5 corridor and
then have specific requirements built into the ordinance someplace that
gets you what you 're looking for . But I 'm not prepared to make those kinds ,
of value judgments as to what you want to see in a corridor study until we
do it .
Emmings: No . We don 't want to do that until we do the , that 's part of the '
corridor study as I see it .
Conrad: What I see , what I need to know from Paul is what are we talking 11 about here? I 'm throwing some things out and I really don 't know what I 'm
talking about in terms of the overall Chanhassen plan . Again , we 're
looking at TH 41 and we 're looking at TH 212 and we 're looking at TH 101 .
The major arteries . What is it that we could do and how do we do it? I need II
some guidance . Do we have a chance to do something there? Is it something
that is so costly that we can 't do it?
Emmings: I think you 're talking about something different here . To me
what Paul brought in front of us is an ordinance that says , what do people
do when they develop property and what you 're talking about is , what does
Chanhassen do , number one in it 's own , in the right-of-way to make the City II
look the way we want it to? And number two , maybe to require developments
adjacent to that .
Conrad: That 's the key right there . If we have the plan in place when the II
new development comes in and they know what they have to do because we 've
got a plan that says for TH 5 corridor this is what you 've got to fit into . II
Krauss: I think that 's going to come . We 're just not prepared to do that
until we develop those standards as a part of the study . Now the only
corridor we committed to studying specifically is TH 5 and I don 't know
that we can devote a specific amount of study to each one . However , the
TH 101 relocation study , when Fred Hoisington did that , has a landscaping
design element embodied into it . So we do these things as the projects
come along .
Batzli : But it seems to me he really toned that down due to constraints
imposed by MnDot based on curves in the road .
Krauss: MnDot makes it very tough .
Emmings: You 've got to keep the trees away so the cars don 't hit them .
Krauss: Well basically with the landscaping we were doing on TH 5 , MnDot
won 't let anything happen in their right-of-way but paving treatments and
any of the landscaping and the monumenting we 're doing , we 're doing on land
we either own or buying just outside the MnDot right-of-way .
Batzli : So realistically then , how much landscaping can we do on a project
like that? . . .sumac on the slopes .
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' Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 -- Page 45
Erhart: Does the right-of-way include the side slopes or doesn 't it?
Krauss: It depends . Some places yes .
Emmings : Right now should Paul 's focus be on number one , pulling
' everything that relates to landscaping into a landscaping section in the
ordinance? Number two , dealing with the general requirements? Landscaping
requirements for developers in the city and maybe this other thing is
another step . Is that the way you see it? So the first step is to get the
general stuff all pulled together in one place and find out what it is .
Find out what the requirements are .
' Conrad: I see this step as being relatively , you know we can make this a
relatively simple step . Whether we 're talking one tree or 3 , and there 's
some other things . Obviously I 'm simplifying that . I guess my only
perspective is if we really talk about what Dick Wing is saying , I don 't
think 3 trees in a lot is going to make a difference .
Emmings: Well and I don 't think that 's what Dick is saying either . He 's
got the step .
Conrad: Right . He 's saying , that 's a real easy , we can change a number
11 from 1 to 3 and we 're going the right direction but I think the overall
city planning is really what can make a difference in landscaping and the
sooner we get to it , the more chance we have of getting something done as
we develop because there will be , as soon as the MUSA starts going in ,
we 're going to have some pressure to develop .
Batzli : But I think we disagree from the standpoint of I think 3 trees is
an enormous step forward for a lot of us living in cornfields and don 't
under estimate allowing people to put a couple of trees in their mortgage
rather than going out and purchasing them later .
Farmakes: A lot of that land is cornfields .
Batzli : Yeah .
Ahrens: I agree . I don 't understand . . . That where most of the
development is . I mean we 're not going in and developing much around Lotus
Lake .
Emmings: Do something .
Krauss: Okay .
Erhart: I 've got just one small item . On page 6 . 20-1179 , item (.3 ) down
there . I 've always felt that the City had too much . . .replacing . If you
just add a statement that said , where existing tree cover is minimal , the
City may require the replacement of removed trees .
Emmings: Which number? Oh I see .
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Planning Commission Meeting ,
April 3 , 1991 - Page 46
Erhart: ( 3 ) . Where there 's a few trees but it 's not a forest , you can go 11
in and require them to replace cut down trees . That at least gives us a
little bit of guidance when you can apply that and when not . Right now
it 's essentially at your discretion .
Krauss: Jo Ann and I were just talking that we need to look at the whole
tree preservation program . Tree replacement program with this . One of the
things that hopefully we 'll have real shortly but I 'm not counting on it ,
is the DNR reforestation thing where , I 'm not sure how I ' ll bring that in
but they may designate a stand of trees of being particularly important
intact so there maybe more value placed on that .
Erhart: I understand but I 'm just saying , if you get a completely wooded
lot and he 's got .
Ellson: It says may .
Erhart: I understand it says may but it leaves it entirely up to the
discretion of the city and I 'm just saying we can put a little bit of
direciton into it by saying where existing tree cover is minimal , we can II make them replace trees but right now could we just say , well gee . You 've
got to take out trees because you 're going to put a house pad there .
Therefore , I want you to put .
Olsen: We can put in wording that allows for the housepad and driveway
improvements but beyond that .
Krauss: Eden Prairie which has received some acclaim for their tree
preservation ordinance . I don 't like it because it 's so severe that if you
do build on a forested lot and you have to remove trees , you 've obligated
to replace it and you may have no place to put it .
Erhart: That 's not right and that 's what I 'm trying to avoid by just 11 giving a little bit , by adding a phrase to give direction here because I
know that 's not our intent .
Batzli : Jo Ann? I recall this year then too , it seems to me we had
somebody subdivide a lot not too long ago and he sold it to some guy who 's II
going to build a house and then clear cut the lot and we couldn 't do
anything about it . Is that still possible under , I don 't remember what we 11
were going to do about that to fix that loophole where a person subdivided
the lot and then they sold the lots to someone else to build .
Olsen: I think that gets to , it 's their private property . What they do
once it gets to that point . That might have been , is that why I said we
couldn 't do anything?
Batzli : I don 't think so . But it wasn 't really , they hadn't gone through , II
the construction process yet but they still were able to clear cut the lot
to build a house . It seemed like a mighty simple way to avoid all of our
regulations on doing this type of thing .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 -- Page 47
Emmings: But if you have an overall plan for the subdivision that would
encompass both tree preservation and planting and you get all the people..
Batzli : How do you tie that into the contractor that 's going to build a
house that might maybe buys it as a spec lot and he 's going to , you know .
' You have somebody comes in and he 's got a piece of property . He divides it
into 3 lots and sells it to contactor A , B and C .
' Krauss: You record a development contract against the property . If
there 's specific conditions , that will go along with the title which we
used to not do very effectively but we have been for the last year .
' Olsen : And if there is a significant amount of trees , there would have
been a tree removal plan required . When the building permit comes in , they
show what trees will be preserved and how they 'll be preserved . So then ,
' and that 's happened since then . When we 've been better at this , where
they 'll still cut down more trees than that . We 've been able to go back
out there and say no . This is the plan . It shows this and you have to
replace those . Again , you 're just getting little trees instead of a big
' huge oak but we 've been able to have them replace them .
Emmings : It sounds like the abuses have come in the subdivisions and
I guess that 's where we need that .
Krauss : I don 't think we ' ll ever be able to stop individual abuses . Except
'
that 95% of the time common sense is going to dictate that they 're going to
preserve what gives them some visual pleasure . What adds value to the lot
and developers aren 't as dumb as they used to be .
Emmings : No . They come in lie . On that very one I think Brian 's talking
about , the guy stood right there and said , do you think I 'm stupid . I
wouldn 't cut down these trees because I can get more for the lots with
' trees on them and then he went and cut down every damn tree .
Olsen : Like Triple Crown . That 's the one right on Kerber . North of Chan
' Vista . Used to be covered with vegetation .
Emmings: But I know he stood there and said ., We said , are you going to
preserve these trees and he said do you think I 'm crazy . I 'm going to
' preserve every tree I can because people will pay more for that . It made
sense to us so we didn 't put any restrictions on it and he just took a
bulldozer and made it flat .
Ellson: Maybe we should have a hate list for those kinds of people and
just pass them around . And then just say , make sure he 's got a lot of
landscaping restrictions and penalties .
Emmings: That 45 minutes was an hour long .
Batzli : We 're getting better .
Planning Commission Meeting '
April 3 , 1991 - Page 48
BLUFFLINE PRESERVATION ORDINANCE.
Emmings: Paul had some specific questions on the summary on page 6 of his
report here . Or Jo Ann . I 'm sorry .
Krauss: Do you want to start this now given the time? I
Emmings : I have a feeling this one won 't take that long . Yeah , I think we
ought to do it .
Erhart : Yeah . I 've got some issues on it .
Emmings: The only one I 've got , since I 've got the floor , was when you II talk about the bluff impact zone within 20 feet of the top of the bluff . I
just wonder why it isn 't a bigger number . The bluff impact zone talks
about , page 2 is , I don 't know why it 's not 100 feet?
Erhart: What line are you on?
Emmings: Page 2 . Bluff Impact Zone .
Ellson: Second major paragraph .
Erhart : Under item 1? 1
Emmings: No above there where it 's defined . ,
Olsen : Actually they 're finding the opposite . That the definition of
bluff is where it has to be 30% for a certain amount and then if it levels
out , then the steep slope or it 's not a bluff so actually , the way bluffs
usually are , is that there will be a steep slope and then you 'll have it
leveling out but that still , the top of this is still , or the top of the
bluff so you actually already have a pretty decent amount of area leveling ,
out from the bluff before you do take that 20 feet .
Batzli : I thought the bluff , the only part of the bluff was the part that
was over 30% . That 's where I was confused .
Olsen: But the top of the bluff is a higher point . . . .segment with 18% .
So you 've got 30% and then you could have anything with 18% . That 's still II
considered part of the bluff .
Erhart: 50 foot?
Olsen: In fact , I don 't know that you need more is what I 'm getting at .
The DNR finds that the 20% might even be . . .
Emmings: Let me tell you , well okay . But you 've got restrictions on the
bluff impact zone but a building only needs to be set back 30 feet . A
structure only , what?
Erhart : You 're getting into the broader question but I want to comment , to
bring up here and that is . My impression of this , I guess I 've been
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 -- Page 49
pushing to try to preserve this bluff and everything like that from
commercial development . On the other hand , I guess I 'm a little awestruck
' by this whole thing is that one of the things I 'm trying to preserve is so
people can build houses on top of the bluff and overlook it and I guess my
reaction is , I 'm concerned we 're being too restrictive in terms of the guy
who wants to build his house and have a deck that is up essentially to what
you call the top of the bluff and have it essentially overlook the valley
and stuff . A lot of which those existing houses are there . You 're
applying standards which really are , there 's all kinds of houses there now
' which would not meet this standard and I really question why we 're trying
to do that when I thought what we were trying to do was protect the bluff
from development right essentially down in the valley and that area there .
' My concern is now , that 's one concern . It kind of goes against what
you 're .
Emmings: Yeah , because I 'm including the top of the bluff .
Erhart : Yeah , I just don 't understand it . To me that 's part of the big
value of the bluff is that someone can build on it and take advantage of
it .
Emmings: I don 't mind them building houses on top of it but I think they
ought to be set back a ways .
Erhart : Second concern of the whole thing is the way this reads it will
not only just apply to bluffs but I 'll tell you . There 's a lot of hills in
the city of Chanhassen that this thing will make practically unbuildable .
Batzli : We can limit it to the BE Districts .
rErhart : Because I ' ll tell you , and the reason I ask . You 're taking this
out of the DNR shoreland ordinance and you talk about 25 feet above the
ordinary high water and then you 're just taking that number and applying it
to number one . And you 're saying that a slope rising at least 25 feet
above the toe of the slope , not the high water mark and I think that
number 's too small . I like the overall thing . I really like it but
I think where it 's getting too broad and we 're going to be applying this
thing to hills . As a result , you 're going to have a major impact on how
things will get done and I don 't think that was our intent . I have a lot
' of hills on my property that are over 25 feet tall .
Emmings: With slopes like these?
' Erhart : Oh yeah .
Emmings: But you don 't want to build at the top of a steep slope like that
do you?
Erhart : I think that 's what 's valuable about the land .
Emmings : Right up to the edge of it though?
Erhart : Well the deck .
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Planning Commission Meeting 1
April 3 , 1991 - Page 50
Emmings: And you don 't worry about having a deal like in California here
where you go sliding away down the hill .
Ahrens: Oh in Eden Prairie .
Ellson: Or Eden Prairie just during that 100 year storm there were some of
those . . .
Erhart: In the first place you 've got 50 feet of an 18 foot slope and then
you 've got another 30 feet of the setback . You 're talking about •
restricting a lot of land from use by lot owners .
Emmings : That 's what I thought this was all about . '
Ellson: It was for impact wasn 't it? It wasn 't to save a bunch of decks
on top of the bluff . You 're preserving how nice it looks .
Ahrens : I thought this will all about protecting bluffs , not protecting
them for the development of houses on the top of them..
Erhart : I understand that but there has to be a point where you draw a
line . I mean if people want to build houses , why don 't we just say you
can 't build houses on lakes because I don 't want to drive by in my boat and
see a house and you wouldn 't have a house . So there 's a practical limit
and I think we 've gone , what scares me is apparently some of these numbers
are already incorporated into the DNR ordinance . 11 Olsen: We 're going to be having to adopt these with our Shoreland
Ordinance .
Erhart: 25 feet is , that 's nothing . That 's a hill here in Chanhassen .
There 's a lot of places that are hills that have nothing to do with what
we 're talking about bluffs that will fall into this regulation .
Emmings: They did say , somewhere in here they told us what you thought
would actually be protected here . I don 't know . I can 't get too excited
about a hill . I don 't know exactly what a hill is I guess . '
Olsen: It 's steep slopes was what maybe you're picturing and you do allow
development of that .
Erhart : That 's what I 'm saying but I think with this ordinance we 're not
going to anymore .
Olsen: Yeah .
Emmings: Remember Tim when we talked about the land that went by the golf I
course and somebody wanted to build a house that was kind of going to hang
out over the bluff almost and I think we were all real opposed to that .
Both because it imposed on the creek there , the valley that was there and
it didn 't , well I don 't know . I remember thinking it didn 't sound safe to II
me in addition .
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' Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 51
Erhart: But Steve , there 's a difference between 80 foot setback . You have
18% slope .
' Emmings: Why are you saying 80?
11 Erhart : Because you have 50 feet of 18% .
Emmings: You 've got 50 feet going what direction?
Erhart : Back from essentially where the 30% slope is . Then you have 50
feet of 18% slope and then you 've got another 30 feet of setback . That 's
80 feet .
' Emmings: From what?
' Erhart : From what I would consider really where the bluff starts .
Emmings: I don 't agree with that . Look at this diagram . Look at this one
Tim .
' Erhart : The top of the bluff means .
' Ellson : There 's a picture of it . It 's described here .
Emmings: A picture 's worth a thousand words .
' Erhart : I 've got it . Let me read it for you . The top of the bluff means
the higher point of a 50 foot setgment with an average slope exceeding 18% .
Conrad: Okay , and that 's this part .
Erhart : No , that 's the 30% . I 'm reading the ordinance to you .
Olsen: The top of the bluff is where it levels out . . .
Emmings: Put this one up .
Erhart : I know but that doesn 't agree with what it says here .
Emmings: I think you 're reading steep slopes . Isn 't that the steep
slopes?
Olsen: The steep slope is kind of between these areas and that 's where
Coil was saying that either 20 feet . . .and then in the area of 18% , then you
have . This would be the top and then you 'd have 20 feet setback from here .
Emmings: I like that better .
Erhart: It 's where your 30o is . Then you have another 50 feet where it
drops down to 18% . I 'm just saying , so then you finally get to the top and
then you 've got another 30 feet so your house is 80 feet back from where .
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Planning Commission Meeting 1
April 3 , 1991 - Page 52
Emmings: In that peculiar case yeah but what about here where you 've got 1
no 18 at all? It goes up 30 and then it starts to level off .
Erhart: If you go walk those Minnesota River bluffs , it 's far more common , I
in fact you have variations all the way up like this . It doesn 't go up and
just stop like that picture . That 's not the way that Minnesota Valley II
looks . In fact I 'm not even sure , well . I quite frankly think it 's going
to get a hard time . It 's going to get so restrictive because the fact that
it dips back down . It 's pretty idealistic .
Emmings: Maybe we ought to step back because I thought what we were trying II
to do here was keep development off the top . The edge of the slope . We
don 't want to see development on the slope itself and basically from the II river to the top of the slope a little ways back we didn 't want to see any
development . That 's where I thought we were coming from .
Ellson: So nature wise it just looked like 100 years . . . I
Emmings: Well you 're the one who proposed this so what did you have in
mind? '
Erhart: I never had in mind that . I was trying to get rid of the
development actually down by the highway . This is all kind of shocking to '
me . I 'm not opposed to me because I think it will work but I 'm just saying ,
there 's got to be really , we really need to define what our goals are here .
I guess I don 't have any problem with the houses way up there that have
decks that come right to the edge because they like to look over the II valley . I really have no problem with that . It 's no different than other
houses around . Housing on lakes . It 's an amenity that those people want
and it 's really not that intrusive .
Emmings: And residential development like that at the top of the bluff
doesn 't bother you but you wouldn 't want to see any other kind?
Erhart: I don 't want to see commercial/industrial development in the
valley or situations . We don 't want houses on 30% slope . I absolutely
agree with that because of the erosion problem . And the thing is , that II sounds good here but there 's a lot of places in the world where houses are
built on 30% slope as a rule .
Emmings: And they wash out into the lake . I
Conrad: They shouldn 't be there .
Erhart: Well you wouldn 't build a house in Puerto Rico . Nobody would live
there in Puerto Rico if you couldn 't build a house on a 30% slope .
Conrad: Let me follow up . The reason for the setbacks Jo Ann would be for II
erosion? When we had that 20?
Olsen: The DNR 's big thing is more visual . They want to keep things . I
Again , this ordinance is for the shoreland ordinance so it 's bluffs along
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 53
the lakes so they don 't want it cleared completely right up so you can see
the home . The setback is for visual but also for erosion .
Conrad: I just kept thinking that Tim , if you put a house right on the
edge of the bluff , you 've got a lot of water coming off your roof and it
just seemed , you know for a rain storm , it just seems like you 're
accentuating the erosion . That 's how I interpretted the ordinance . If you
keep your house back a little bit , you 're reducing the erosion . Maybe
that 's not a big deal but that was my interpretation of the reason . Mine
wasn 't visual .
Ellson: Plus not all the decks are good looking and things like that .
' Ahrens: It 's too windy to have a deck up there anyway .
Erhart: This can be applied , unless I 'm reading it wrong , to a lot of
hills in the City that have nothing to do with bluffs . 25% rise .
Krauss : That 's a question we have when we looked at starting to put
together a map of where these things occur . It 's not only the Minnesota
River bluff lines . It 's around Lotus Lake . It 's in some different areas
and there are more than I think we would have thought . You 're raising a
valid point . On the other hand , I think there 's a problem with allowing
' people to clear cut 30 foot openings in tree cover because they want to
look at the Minnesota River .
Erhart : I have no problem with that .
Krauss: We 've been talking to a couple of guys who are amateur naturalist
who grew up in this area and have been walking Bluff Creek for 20 years and
would like the City to be more active in preserving the natural areas of
Bluff Creek around the golf course . And they 've offered , I think we 're
going to probably try to schedule this for May sometime . They 're going to
conduct a tour , a walking tour of the area down there and I was going to
invite you and the Park Board and whoever wanted to go on the City Council .
But they pointed out , there 's a new home being built and it 's by one of the
1 Redmond son-in-law 's on an 80 acre tract of ground past the golf course on
Bluff Creek Drive . You can go to see it . Where they met our setback
requirement from Bluff Creek . The creek itself but they chopped , I mean
it 's a very steep bluff where they built and they chopped , clear cut the
trees so that their home could be hung very dramatically . It 's a
spectacular home . Hung dramatically out over this pristine valley . And
these guys said they were horrified . They were walking through there and
here 's this area that no intrusion has ever been in and now you walk up
there and you see this thing over hanging the valley . Now they may own it
They do own part of it but should they have been allowed to intrude in that
way? I haven 't seen that aspect of it but the Spector of it I find _
troubling .
' Erhart : I agree and maybe what we have to do is find out what areas we
want to protect in this manner . Where you don 't want to see anything and
protect those areas . On the other hand you 've got a guy who owns a lot on
Lotus Lake and you 've got 1 ,000 houses that are parked right up to the edge
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 54
of the cliff , and now this guy just because he hasn 't built on it for 30
years , now wants to build houses , his house has got to be 80 feet back
further than all the existing houses?
Emmings: No he doesn 't because isn 't there a regulation that says if
you 're coming into an established neighborhood you can vary , or you build
so you 're building up at the level of where the existing homes are?
Olsen: That 's in the Shoreland Ordinance itself but that 's something that
we can apply to this ordinance .
Krauss: Also , it should not apply . I mean if you 've got rolling terrain ,
we 're in marin country here . The glacier stopped here and dumped out piles
of rocks all over the place and now some of them have trees on it or
they 're steep . Those kinds of things are sort of abberations on the
landscape and just because they 're steep , you 're right . They shouldn 't
automatically trip this regulation necessarily .
Emmings: I don 't think that 's our intent .
Conrad: What you just said about building on a lake and steep slope . ,
There 's just no way it should be done . Just absolutely no way so I don 't
care what the previous residents did . There should be no building on a
steep slope going to the lake . There 's no way they can prevent erosion
going in there . There 's absolutely no way .
Erhart: Are you talking about steep slopes? 30% or 18%?
Conrad: Well 30% .
Erhart: I 'm not disagreeing with that Ladd . But what we 've got here . I
Conrad: But Steve was making a point and I was making a counter point . I
don 't believe that that should be done .
Erhart : Again , my concern is that you 've got 80 feet of 18% that we 're
also restricting and again while it may be appropriate for the , you know
the Bluff Creek thing by the golf course is the classic case . It 's level
and man it drops but most other areas don 't quite fit the classic case . I
think we 'v got to put some more thought into this .
Emmings: I don 't think anybody sitting up here had hills in mind when we
started all this .
Ellson: No . In fact I 'm only looking at one place in all of Chanhassen . 1
Emmings: I was thinking Minnesota River Valley .
Krauss: You know but it 's across Lake Minnewashta from you . It 's off that
Tanadoona where those homes are perched up on that bank .
Emmings: Well there 's two places by the lake . There 's Minnewashta . I
There 's around in that little bay where there 's some houses high on the
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 55
hill and then there 's that old Governor 's mansion that probably would fit
in this . There 's a real steep hill there , which I think is the one you 're
mentioning . It 's right on the Tanadoona property . Or Tuna Noodle as we
call it . That 's right on that property .-
Conrad: But if we 're looking at bluffs , I guess we 've got to be looking at
bluffs regardless .
Emmings: We don 't have to .
Conrad: Don 't we?
Emmings: We don 't have to do anything .
' Erhart : We don 't have to . Define our goals of what .
Conrad: So the goal is to preserve the bluffs .
Erhart : Well initially the goal was to preserve the Minnesota River Valley
and I think we should include Bluff Creek and some of those other ravines
that feed into the Minnesota River . I think we 've got to decide whether
we 're trying to preserve bluffs on Lotus Lake and Minnewashta .
Conrad: Well if it applies , I think we should .
Erhart : Maybe rewrite it so it doesn 't apply .
Emmings: See on Minnewashta and Lotus I would expect that the
Shoreland Ordinance will apply and take care of that . I don 't think we 've
got to worry about that . We 've already got something that covers that . To
me this was , and I agree with Tim . The idea was the Minnesota River
Valley . The creek beds that come down to it and I don 't know , maybe we can
specify where it applies .
Krauss: Well you could . You could do this as an overlay district . If we
can agree on where those things should be found or are found , we can
designate that .
Olsen: It 's going to be tough . We know certain bluff areas like you 're
saying where you want to protect them but there might be a bluff area that
meets the 30% slope that we don 't know about but should still be protected .
It 'd be hard to determine , how do you know what 's a bluff and what 's not a
bluff .
Emmings: Aren 't there topographic maps that you can look at?
Olsen: I started to have one of our engineering technicians try to .
' Emmings: I suppose you go crazy looking at them .
Olsen : He goes crazy because like you say , it 's bluffs but the same , until
that development comes in , then they would be required to show us what 's
i
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 56
bluff and what 's steep slope when they come in with their plan . Then we
would know .
Krauss: I guess I don 't think , yeah I agree with Jo Ann . We can 't in all I
probability exactly delineate where this happens but what we can do is sort
of box in areas where this ordinance applies .
Erhart: Is that what Eden Prairie does? i
Krauss: I don 't think they do . I think they just have a standing
ordinance that applies wherever it occurs . In fact it 's called the steep
slope ordinance . It 's not the bluffline . •
Batzli :_ I agree with Tim . I think the original intent of this was to
protect something that , I mean we have a major thoroughfare through the
city and we were trying to avoid having it all commercialized and ruin the
bluff in the meantime but I guess I 'm not adverse to where it 's going a
little bit . I don 't know that somebody , I guess I would rather see
somebody have to have a setback off the top of the bluff . I think that 's a
reasonable requirement I guess . I like the direction of it and I guess I
don 't mind applying it to other places in the city .
Conrad: So far I agree with that until I can get a better feeling of what
we 're talking about and how it would restrict development or hurt people . I II
like the general direction . I don 't think we 're talking hills . As much as
I 'd like to preserve hills , I don 't want to bulldoze them but I don 't know
that this , that that 's the point of this ordinance .
Olsen: I think . . .definition of bluff . It might be steep slope but again ,
that allows alteration with certain conditions which would be nice to have
too . '
Erhart : Maybe what I can do is show you some areas of where I would
consider were the areas of concern . Maybe I misunderstand .
Krauss: Let 's go out someday and see if it applies .
Olsen : Or come in and look at the topos and figure out where it is . I
Farmakes: Would the area inbetween Lake Ann Park and Greenwood Shores
Park , there 's a steep slope area there off of the Eckankar property . It
overlooks Lake Ann .
Krauss: There 's actually a little bit of a bluff there .
Farmakes : Would that be considered a bluff? It seems to make this grade .
Olsen: It might not have enough distance though to meet this definition .
We 'd have to look at the topo .
Krauss: Why don 't we come back to you with some more information . We 'll
follow up on some of these things .
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 57
Emmings: Well the definition of bluff includes a hill so you 're going to
have to so you 're going to have to .
' Ellson: Call it a steep slope ordinance . Now you know why they went with
that .
Emmings: You can call it a bluff but maybe you don 't want it a hill .
Olsen: It gives you the specifics that it has to be . . . Maybe that could
be a steep hill .
Erhart: I think the number that really hit me was the . . . in Chanhassen is
just nothing . If we had picked enough . It could be just a hill and where
you have development , you may have one street on the top of the hill and
houses up there and then another level of the street . That 's real common
throughout our city . The number I would have picked for that was 50 . I
think would have then defined it more as a really big change in elevation .
25 feet in Chanhassen is nothing . This room is 10 feet high . The
difference between different neighborhoods is 25 feet . You 're chewing up
80 feet potentially of making land unuseable . That 's where I was going . I
thought the number ought to be 50 . What 's concerning me is that apparently
they 've already adopting 25 in the shoreland ordinance . However , it only
applies to shoreland areas so if we want to pick that number , I 'm just
' trying to point out that it 's going to be applied to a lot of places that
we hadn 't considered .
Emmings: Alright . Paul 's got I think the next thing we ought to do is
Paul 's got some news about various things . Oh , I have to go back to the
landscape ordinance for one minute . Here 's a folder I 'm going to give to
Paul . It 's from the Minnesota Native Plants Society . It 's about native
plant enthusiasm and it 's called Ethics and Consideration . I know we 've
got an ordinance that says you can 't let areas grow wild and have weeds and
all that and I also know that there 's , it 's getting to be more and more
common and it 's promoted by this Minnesota Native Plant Society and other
private concerns to landscape using natural prairie grasses and other
things that are not mowed . I even saw a booklet out at the Arboretum
when I was out there one day that had a proposed ordinance in it which I
meant to copy and forgot about but I 'll get a copy and get that in . But I
think we ought to , basically this thing said if people want to try and
convince the City and their neighbors that what they 're doing isn 't just
letting their yard go , they 've got to do things like keep track of the
expenditure and the effort that went into landscaping with natural plants .
Make sure they 're keeping just common weeds out of it and making an effort
II to maintain it , even though that doesn 't include mowing . I don 't know . I
like that idea . I think it 's appropriate . I thought about doing it in my
own yard . Letting some areas go natural .
IErhart: Do we have a mowing ordinance here that if you don 't mow the City
comes out?
' Emmings: Yeah , you can be tagged .
Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 58
Krauss : We have a noxious weed ordinance . But the weeds have to meet the
narrow definition of being noxious and there 's a defined list . So you may
be able to get away with doing this right now . You may get complaints
but I 'm not sure the City could do anything about it assuming that you 're
actually achieving that type of a yard .
Emmings : Okay . Well I would just hate to see that kind of landscaping
foreclosed because I think it 's kind of interesting . If you don 't think
our ordinance does that , then I 'm not going to worry about it . Otherwise
I 'll bring in that ordinance that I saw .
Krauss : I 'd be interested in taking a look at it .
Emmings: Okay , I 'll do that .
Ahrens : It 's landscaped around the University of Minnesota with prairie
grasses .
Emmings : Where?
Ahrens: Around , it 's been so many years I can 't remember the name of the
buildings .
Emmings: Which campus? Which State?
Ahrens : Yeah . It 's around Northrup Auditorium and around the , they 've
landscaped these beautiful areas and they have planters with natural
grasses around the architecture building . Around all the older buildings
in there and it 's just beautiful . But you know those are hard to find . The
seeds and stuff are .
Emmings: There 's a private , Prairie Restoration is a private company that II
deals in these kinds of seeds .
Erhart : It sounds like you 're trying to screen the Electrical Engineering I
Building . I can understand that .
Batzli : Well they built a new one you know . I
Emmings: It 's 10:20 and it 's time for Paul 's News .
Krauss: Now for something really different . We have a new Metro Council I
representative . Bonnie Featherstone who resides in Burnsville . I can tell
you that that raised a few eyebrows amongst a number of people that , Dakota 11
County has three representatives because of a quirk of how the districts
lay out . And there was concern that if somebody isn 't truly from the
western suburban area , is he or she going to be representative . I .don 't
know how that 's going to turn out but I got in contact with her yesterday , II
or today . I can 't recall , and we had a 45 minute conversation and I found
her to be very receptive to having an open mind and she 's going to come out
here and meet with us . The Mayor and the City Manager will take her to
lunch and show her the community and fill her in on the Comprehensive Plan .
She says that she 's not territorial . She doesn 't have a political agenda .
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' That she 's receptive to making the Metro Council more responsive to local
government and that 's one of her issues which is great . So we 're trying to
open up the lines of communication with a new person and we 're very hopeful
' that that will be successful and I ' ll keep you posted as to how that 's -
going . The other thing with the Metro Council is they have had our plan
since February 28th or whenever it was , and they have set up a meeting that
I have to go to tomorrow morning where they 're going to have about 6 of
11 their staff people who reviewed our plan and who have questions about
various aspects of it . What I 'm hearing is that nobody 's coming up with
any big bombshells at this point . That basically they 're looking for
' refinements and some additional information . I understand that Michael
Monson agrees that his population projections were wrong . I guess it 's big
of him to finally agree to that but he still won 't agree to what 's right .
' He apparently feels that we should wait a year until he gets around to
redoing his numbers which is a position I find ludicrous . But I believe
that the rest of the Metro Council staff is going to find a way around it .
Now this has been one of the key issues since the get go on this . I don 't
I know what else we could have done . I mean Mike 's numbers are so fax out of
whack that I don 't understand why he has any credibility left at all , but
he apparently does . I will also keep you posted on that . I 'm taking
' Mark Koegler down there . We also retained the firm of Bonestroo , Anderlik
and Rosene to assist us in representing some comprehensive plans , sanitary
sewer issues before the Metro Council . The reason for that is we don 't
have a City Engineer and the fellow that we 're using at Bonestroo , Bob
' Schunicht was the project engineer , consulting project engineer for the
Metro Waste on the Lake Ann Interceptor so he 's very familiar with this
area . But again , I 'll keep you posted . Eastern Carver County
' Transportation Study . The City basically adopted this because we stuck it
in the Comprehensive Plan which was approved and I think you 're somewhat
familiar with it . We 've never had a chance to get a specific discussion on
' what 's in it and what are the implications and what else needs to be done .
There was a meeting held in late December , early January in Carver County
that we couldn 't go to because we had a City Council meeting that night but
what we had decided to do was the same thing that Chaska did which was to
have Roger Gustafson , the County Engineer and Larry Dallam , who is the
consultant project manager , give us a talk about it and respond to
questions . And through scheduling conflicts of one sort of another , we
haven 't been able to arrange it until recently . We 're going to be holding
that discussion at the City Council meeting on Monday . We 'll be giving you
and the HRA agendas . If you could make it , that would be great . We don 't
have a real big Council agenda so I don 't think it 's the kind of thing that
anybody 's going to have to sit around until midnight to hear this . But
I 'll get you the agendas out and it should be an informative discussion I
think . Medical Arts Building or Ridgeview Medical Arts Building I guess is
the current name . I met with them after the Planning Commission meeting
and basically , you outlined some parameters for an alternative plan that
would achieve some additional tenant signage . Basically leaving that
monument sign out front the way it was approved and tinkering with the sign
bands as a part of an overall sign package . Well , they 've submitted
something that we think is consistent with what you wanted to see . Now
' there may be some detailed questions but basically you can see what it does
is it wipes out that middle sign band that was the temporary sign . It says
Dental Office and instead replaces it with larger , 4 foot wide instead of 2
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foot wide sign band . And in that sign band would allow multi-colored signs
with logos . All the other signage on the building is supposed to be the
white letters that are up there now . The Goldstar Mortgage , there 's a
provision in the sign covenants that when that tenant changes ,- they ' ll have
to bring their sign into compliance . As I said , the monument sign out
front is back to what it 's supposed to be . I guess 10 square feet or 10
feet wide or whatever it was .
Emmings : What does it say?
Krauss: It just says the building name . 1
Emmings : Okay .
Conrad: Made out of what? Did they do any , is it a simple? ,
Krauss : I think it 's an internally lit , it 's a ground mounted sign with
plastic cut out . . . Lexan cut out type of thing . ,
Olsen : There 's additional wall signs if you want to point that out .
Krauss: Yeah , there 's basically two new tenant signs .
Olsen: So they added the . . .
Emmings: All in the middle? Yeah .
Batzli : Is this on both sides of the building or just the one side? '
Krauss: No . The back stays the same as it was .
Farmakes : So there 's one additional sign on top of the two? The one was
the dentist sign? Is that correct?
Krauss: Yeah . What they did is , I don 't think they showed that . I
Farmakes: I see three in the middle there .
Krauss: This one now says Chan Dentist .
Farmakes: And what 's the one on your left?
Krauss: It says . . .
Farmakes: So there is an additional sign then? ,
Krauss : Right . There 's a total of two more tenant signs with this .
They 've given us a set of comprehensive covenants which I think are okay as II
long as they 're relying to this kind of package . There are some additional
provisions on what I 've written in there like this building should not be
allowed to have any portable trailer mounted signs out front or banners .
It 's still an office building . It shouldn 't have any paper signs in the
windows or anything else . This should be a sign package .
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' Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 61
' Emmings: Well , but when we say this is what you get , do we also have to
say you don 't get anything else?
Krauss: I think you do .
Olsen : You already said that .
' Krauss: Well , we now have it in a covenant package that we file with the
property . Now what we 've done thus far is we 've written it up to the City
Council and said that the Planning Commission denied their application but
that you seem to indicate that this was along the lines of what you wanted
to see . We told the City Council that you have two options . You can
either interpret what the Planning Commission said and approve this or you
can approve it in concept and send it back to the Planning Commission for
detailed review and approval . I guess I 'd like your feedback on what you'd
prefer . Getting it back here for your final review . Is this really
consistent with what you were thinking?
Conrad: Did you say that was a 4 foot strip in the middle versus a 2?
Krauss: Right .
Emmings: It looks smaller , not bigger on this drawing .
Ahrens : That 's done on purpose .
Krauss: Well no , I think what they 're showing is you 're going with your
corporate logos and they tend to be a little more compact and dense and
built around that . They 've got the width so they don 't need the length for
that long stream of letters .
' Batzli : All I can say is when we get the stuff , make sure there 's one set
of plans with one date and all the dimensions on the plans are the same
scale as what they say . You know this is just incredible .
Conrad : Do we like the two different size of bands? I uess I 'm having g a
little bit of a problem . I didn 't think it was going to come back that way
and I know some of us said we liked taller .
Ahrens : I didn 't think it was going to come back multi-colored . I
guess I 'm a little confused Paul when you said the next tenant who replaces
the Goldstar Mortgage sign is going to have to bring the sign into
compliance because it 's not in compliance now because it 's not white
lettering but we 're going to allow colored signs in the middle . That
doesn 't make any sense to me .
Krauss: That 's where it gets , that 's where it becomes subjective and a
' little different . I wasn 't sure whether that met the criteria that you
were talking about or not . But what they 're talking about is the white
lettering on the outside wings and on the portico 's . The only other
variance to that would be the colored signs with logos in the middle .
Farmakes: These are backlit after hours right? After business hours?
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Planning Commission Meeting 11 April 3 , 1991 - Page 62
Ahrens : I don 't like that . '
Conrad: I don 't like it .
Ahrens: I think it should all look the same . I mean I hate conformity
most the time but I think on this building it needs it . It 's not that
attractive a building . '
Conrad : Yeah .
Krauss: Well , I can convey those comments to the City Council . But in
principle , is this concept , whether or not you agree with the actual
signage , is the concept particular with the sign bands?
Emmings: Oh yeah . That 's fine .
Conrad: I think them having that middle sign band . They can put three
names out there . I just don 't feel , from what I see , that it 's
aesthetically what I thought we were trying to encourage .
Krauss: Why don 't I try to encourage the City Council to accept the
concept and we 'll bring it back to you for final action . That way you can II
make the final decision on that .
Emmings: We don 't make final decisions . '
Krauss : You would if the Council allows you to .
Emmings: Oh really? That 's real power man .
Conrad: Just so you 're communicating at least what I thought we were going II
to do is give them a 2 foot band just like the rest and it was going to
look very similar to the balance . I really didn 't care if they had 3 names
in there or 2 , I just was going to give them a band in the middle . '
Emmings : And you were pro color .
Conrad: I made that speech but I don't know that I made it . '
Batzli : You 're renigging now .
Conrad: I don 't know that I made it for that building . I like it on other I
developments . I think Tim made the speech for color and logo . He liked
the logo stuff .
Erhart: I do but that 's , I mean you 've got some of it color and then some
of it white . It doesn 't make any sense at all .
Conrad: I guess against the wood exterior , I just don 't think that this is
an effective design . I like the practicality . What we 're doing is letter
people know that they 're there . It 's a quasi advertising deal but it 's
more of a , in my mind it 's more of just saying , hey they 're here and
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 - Page 63
helping citizens find where they 're located more than a glaring advertising
sign .
Batzli : So if they made all three of them the same as the outbound ones ,
is that going to be okay?
Conrad : Then I 'm comfortable with that .
Emmings : And the 2 foot band . We don 't have to go to 4 feet .
Krauss: I ' ll convey that . Interestingly enough I was stuck in a traffic
jam in Phoenix last week and I looked up and I saw the American Family sign
on a single story office service building and the sign , the logo looked
exactly like that but it was white .
Emmings: Okay . Did you take a picture of that?
1 Krauss : No .
Batzli : But , would you allow white with the logo if it was the same color
as the other signs? Would you let them put their logo up there?
Krauss : I will try to convey your comments to the City Council .
Erhart : I still think they should take the signs off the porticos .
Conrad: Off of where?
Erhart : Off the porticos . To me that 's what kills the building . Those
porticos should have remained undecorated and the signs could be in the
' background . See to me that 's the whole pountinance of this .
Krauss : I ' ll try to convey the sentiment I think I hear to the Council but
you may want to contact them individually . Theoretically they could just
approve it this way and that 's the end of it . So all I can do at this
point is convey . . .thoughts and I 'd be happy to do that . Last couple
things . Briefly . The surface water utility district . We 've sent out
requests for qualifications on about 17 firms .
Emmings: You also sent out bills and I got one .
Krauss: We 've gone through a whole billing cycle . We 've had some
complaints . We 've had some questions and some were valid and we 've made
some adjustments in the billing .
Emmings: I didn 't mean what I said .
' Krauss: Oh , we didn 't adjust yours . But by and large the concern that , we
sent out 5 ,000 bills and we maybe had 20 people call up about it so it
wasn 't a great number and I think we 've been able to resolve any issues
associated with that . Anyway , by Friday afternoon we will have gotten back
initial proposals from consultant teams on doing the three phased study for
us , the wetlands , the storm water and water quality . What we are proposing
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Planning Commission Meeting
April 3 , 1991 -- Page 64
to do at that point is , I 've talked to the Mayor about this , is with an in- II
house committee is review those things , those 17 or however many we get ,
and come up with a short list of maybe 5 . Then ask those 5 firms to
prepare detailed responses . Now I 've asked the Mayor to set up a task
force , or to set up people to sit with us and interview the 5 because we
don 't want to make that decision . This is a long term relationship . We
think it warrants having some Council representation and some Planning
Commission representation on that review committee . I 'd also like this
committee to work on setting up a task force to work with whoever we pick
over the next probably , it 's about a 2 year program to develop this stuff
because it means some changed ordinances . It affects properties . There 's a
lot of policy things . I honestly don 't specifically see it as a sole
Planning Commission responsibility . I like the idea of having some Council
representation . Some Planning Commission representation and some Lake
Associations . Some interested individuals working together on this so we
get more of a cross section of people . Possibly a developer if that 's
appropriate. But we 'll keep you tracking on this and I 'll let you know
when this is coming up . I 'm asking the Council to think about this on
Monday so they can give us some names to work with . The last thing we have
is we have another request for proposals out on doing a comprehensive sewer
and water plan in the new MUSA area . We 've had some significant interest
raised on different properties in the new MUSA area and the first question
is always , where do you want us to hook up to water and sewer? Where
should the City trunk lines be and the answer is , we don 't know . We 've
only got vague ideas but never laid them out so we took some initiative and
we put out proposals to get some folks to work with us and work up that
plan . I ' ll be taking that to the City Council in a couple weeks . Hopefully
we can get somebody on board and get that study out by early summer so
people have better information to work with . But there is a lot of
interest out there . I think that does it for me .
Emmings: Okay . Does anybody got anything else?
Batzli moved, Erhart seconded to adjourn the meeting . All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10=37 p.m. .
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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UNEI % IE
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
II REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 26, 1991
11 Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:35 p .m. .
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews , Dawne Erhart , Wendy Pemrick , Larry Schroers ,
Dave Koubsky , and Jan Lash
IMEMBERS ABSENT: Curt Robinson
I STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman , Park and Recreation Coordinator ; Jerry
Ruegemer , Recreation Supervisor ; and Bruce Chamberlain , Van Doren-Hazard-
Stallings
IAPPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash moved , Koubsky seconded to approve the Minutes
of the Park and Recreation meetings dated March 12 , 1991 and February 26 ,
1991 as presented . All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously .
INEIGHBORHOOD MEETING, INITIATION OF 'MASTER" PLAN, PHEASANT HILLS PARK .
IPublic Present:
Name Address -
IIMark Ridderson 1811 Lake Lucy Lane
Gary Kluemake 1711 Wood Duck Lane
Eric Rivkin 1695 Stellar Court
I Steve Slyce 6511 White Dove Circle
Dave & Mary Dezellar 1731 Wood Duck Lane
Becky Jessen 1741 Wood Duck Lane
I Mike & Lori Schwartz 1821 Pheasant Drive
Dave & Renee Granos 1740 Wood Duck Circle
Mike Filippi 1731 Wood Duck Circle
Don Hasek 6520 White Dove Circle
I Dan Gabler 1780 Pheasant Circle
Nancy Febry 1710 Teal Circle
Mark Williams 1655 Lake Lucy Road
I Pat Johnson & Mary Cordell 1730 Lake Lucy Road
Jim Bergeson 1661 Wood Duck Lane
I Hoffman: As the Commission is aware , each time a new parcel of land is
brought into the park system of Chanhassen there are a series of events
that take place in it 's evolution eventually to a park. One of the most
important in the initial meeting is the neighborhood meeting to begin
I gathering some information from the area residents who the park is intended
to serve for the most part . To find out their interests . The structure of
their neighborhood . What age children they have . What their interests are
II and that type of thing . So we have sent out the mailing to all of the
residents in the Pheasant Hills area . A majority of the residents in
the Lake Luch Highland area and invited those people in . I did receive two
II letters and then a call today from people are not able to make it . Upon
hearing the comments from the people in the audience then I 'll go ahead and
address those particular concerns of those people . You did have the
opportunity to review an aerial photograph of the site so the Commission is
II
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 2
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1 familiar with some of the topography and the terrain which the 11 .67 acre
site is comprised of . There 's wetland areas . There 's some fairly flat
prairie type areas and then there 's also a steeply wooded bank and a hill
as well in the make-up of the park . There 's also an aerial photo . As the
neighborhood came in , they could take a look at that . Then we have an
overhead as well that we can use during the discussion in generating ideas
where particular facilities would fit on this site . So with that I would
allow Chairman Schroers to go ahead and invite comments from the audience
to hear their wishes and again , I thank everyone , all the residents this
evening for coming in . Please feel at your leisure to get up and address
the commission and staff as to what you feel is important as far as the
development of this particular park . We also have with us tonight from Van
Doren-Hazard-Stallings , Bruce Chamberlain . The park planning firm that the
City typically uses in this type of situation and Van Doren-Hazard-
Stallings will be assisting the City in developing any eventual master plan
for this site .
' Schroers: Okay , thank you Todd . We would be interested in hearing comments
from the residents . What we 'd like is if you could come to the microphone
state your name and address for the record and let 's get on .
land
Mike Filippi : My name is Mike Filippi . I live at 1731 Wood Duck Circle .
I have a couple of concerns . I guess the biggest one is it 's my
' understanding that they want to put a road or consider to be putting a road
in and parking lot that would go directly onto Wood Duck Lane . I have 120
feet of frontage right here coming off of the circle . If that road goes
' in , as I understand they 're considering , I have a very , well several
concerns . On a personal level , I 'm going to have headlights hitting my
living room , deck , the porch area where my children are playing . Anyone of
you misses the stop sign or slides thru it or whatever , is going to end up
in my back yard where my children do play . My 4 year old and my 6 year
old . That 's obviously a very personal concern of mine . But a major
concern also is the amount of traffic that it would bring into this
neighborhood . Right now it is a dead end . There 's all cul-de-sacs . An
' awful lot of children back here that ride their bikes around and they can
do it safely as I think there 's only one or two residents back here that
' don 't have children so everyone drives very carefully knowing that their
kids can be out there too . Start bringing in a lot of traffic from a park
for baseball games and hockey games and what not , it 's no longer going to
be safe in my opinion for those children which are a very young age and
just learning how to ride and ride safely . To be playing in there , we have
a road down here with basically no homes on it . One driveway coming up
this way . One that goes in here which I guess is also proposed subdivision
' for right in this area . But for the most part no risk to the children .
Nobody 's riding their bikes back along this road and if we can put an
access here , maybe a little diagonal parking or something along that
nature , it will be a lot safer for all the children and that would be my
' main concern at this point . As far as what I 'd like to actually see at the
park , let 's see what the budget says . I 'd like to see obviously a ball
diamond . Maybe a hockey field that can double as a soccer field . Things
along that nature , depending on how many years it 's going to take .
Children 's swingsets . Things along that line . The kids might be too old
but the next generation could bring them in .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting 1
March 26, 1991 - Page 3
Schroers: Okay , thanks . Can I ask where you got the information that a
parking lot was to be put there?
Mike Filippi : Rumor . I don 't know if it 's true or not . I
Hoffman: Just to clarify . The resident across the 50 foot frontage which
the park property does abut Wood Duck Lane there , called and asked about
the potential access to the park . My response back , if there was going to
be vehicular access to the park coming in off of that side would be more
accessible , it may not be more appropriate coming in off the Lake Lucy Lane
side because there 's not a grade . There 's not an access available off of
that at Lake Lucy or the south side of the park . So there 's , no one ever
said there 's going to be a parking lot in Pheasant Hills Park but if it was I
considered , that would be the site which staff would consider the only
pedestrian .
Mike Filippi : This one? '
Hoffman: Correct . Other than that , coming in off of the other side you 're
confronted with a wetland area and the hillside . '
•
Mike Filippi : I understand that but I also know that when this was a
proposed development , the City had no problem at all with the developer
putting a road in on this side . In fact he was considering either bringing
it in and back out here or simply bringing it in , cul-de-sacing it and
having a single access and at that point in time there was no objection
from the City to put a road in here . '
Hoffman: The plan to develop that never got to that point where there
would be . I
Mike Filippi : On this drawing .
Hoffman: Just proposals : ,
Mike Filippi : . . .my understanding when we came in about the development
for the park that it was very close to being approved as was laid out .
Hoffman: Yeah , there were a lot of loose ends.
Mike Filippi : This is a very small area and I think you 're referring to
Renee Perkins who asked me also to speak for them because they live there
and I live there so we're neighbors and they couldn't make it and they
asked me to speak for them as well . Their concerned with the traffic and
the parking lot . This is not a very big lot . There 's no way you could do
a parking lot there anyway . You 'd have to do a culvert in there just to
get a road through . I think it 'd be a great place for a bike path or
walking path so that access could be brought in from here but as far as the r
traffic and everything , you 'd have a lot more I think parking area if all
you did was widened this slightly and put angled parking in here . You 'd
have an awful lot more than what this little 50 foot lot 's going to give
you . Thank you .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 4
' Schroers: Thank you . I think one thing that we want to bear in mind here
is that I feel the City and the Park and Rec Commission as well is looking
' at Pheasant Hills as a neighborhood park . Not the type of a park where we
would encourage the use of the area for organized types of athletics and
sports where we would be drawing a bunch of people into that area . It will
be a neighborhood park for the people that live there and most of the use
would be walk in . Okay? Next .
Eric Rivkin: Eric Rivkin , 1695 Stellar Court . The people across the
street from this park , Mary Cordell and Pat Johnson who live right here
also asked me to speak for them tonight . They couldn 't make it . They were
instrumental in helping the City acquire this park and their voice should
be equally heard as well . I live on Stellar Court which is right over here
somewhere and we anticipate using that park pretty heavily . I would agree
with the comments that you made Larry about the park being a neighborhood
park and not drawing a lot of traffic . I am concerned about the affect it
is going to have on the Pheasant Hills people in having traffic come
through here and park here . I also don 't think it would be a good , since
the park is relatively small and whatever space , flat area we do have
' should be utilized for the activities , I don 't think it would be a wise
decision to use the area , any area in the park itself for parking cars .
- The Cordell 's and I feel that maybe taking a little edge off of Lake Lucy
Lane and putting some diagonal parking for maybe 5-10 spots on the north ,
on the park side of that road would be plenty good enough to have people
park . It 's no a long walk obviously to do what they 're going to do . _ We 'd
also like to see some connection between , to go through from Pheasant Hills
through to that maybe parking area . Maybe a walking path , bike path for
baby carriages and strollers and people want to walk with maybe some picnic
tables in the tree groves around . We would like to see a totlot put in as
' soon as possible . I think that 's high on our priority . Our kids , there
are many , many dozens of children here that are of that age and before they
grow up too much , we 'd like to see them utilize that . My 7 year old son , I
asked him what he wanted in the park and he would like to request to have a
totlot structure similar to the one at Lake Ann. I don't know if there 's
any room for a full sized ballfield per se but we would like to see some
grassy area where you can spread out and play any kind of ball sport . You
know catch , soccer and maybe put up a hockey rink in a corner of it or
whatever . Some kind of open mowed area to allow for everything from
frisbee playing to doing some ball and catch and a little bit of adhoc
softball . I don 't know about the , I think the safety issue about the
parking is something that should be taken into consideration . I know the
park should be accessible to everybody in Chanhassen . There should be some
parking but I don 't think it should be , like as you say , determine the
' design of the park or anything like that and take up lots of room. And as
far as we 're concerned , I think some gentle solution to the parking
problem I think on Lake Lucy Lane might work .
Schroers: Can you tell us Eric , is there any reason that you can 't park
just off street parking on Lake Lucy Lane right now? Is there signs that
say no parking?
Eric Rivkin: I don 't think the shoulder is wide enough right now. With
the right-of-way that the City has , I think that they could widened the
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting 1
March 26 , 1991 - Page 5
•
shoulder enough that you could have head in parking in there and then allow II
for safe door opening and stuff . I don 't think you 'd want doors opening
onto the street . They could parallel park there right now . There are not '
no parking signs on that road I believe so it won 't change anything if you
do have parking on that street so the expectations are the same .
Schroers : Alright . Are you calling Lake Lucy Lane and Lake Lucy Road the II
same thing?
Eric Rivkin: No . Lake Lucy Road is this one here . That 's a wider paved
road and Lake Lucy Lane comes off of that . That 's a much narrow road and
narrower shoulders but I think some head in parking rather than off of
here . There 's some dry land right here . I don 't think you have to end up '
filling any wetland or anything like that to kind of go down in here and
put space in for about 5-10 cars . Thank you .
Dave Dezellar : Hi . I 'm Dave Dezellar , 1731 Wood Duck Lane and I live on II
the other side of the 50 foot variance next to Rick and Renee Perkins or I
guess across the street . I guess I 'd like to address the parking problem
as well . Be it a rumor or not , I don 't want it there . My wife doesn't
want it there . I don 't think the neighbors want it there . For selfish
reasons , I bought the lot that I did because it 's private . It overlooks
the 13 acres which is now going to be the park . I 'm all in favor of the
park but I just don 't want any traffic going by my house late at night ,
early in the morning . Any time of the day so. I guess I would just like to
voice my opinion for the record that I 'm opposed to any parking lot on this
end of the development . As far as the Lake Lucy Lane , I believe that
there 's room on the right side of the road as you 're heading west for cars II
to park on the shoulder . There 's a couple cars there now that park there
now because their driveway is being , it 's kind of sloppy and it 's bad right
now . But on the other side of the road I would say no but on the one side,
on the north side I would say yes . There 's room to park at least 10-12
cars parallel parking . Thanks .
Schroers: Thank you . Is there anyone else of the residents who would like II
to speak?
Jim Bergeson: My name is Jim Bergeson and I live at 1661 Wood Duck Lane . I
I 've lived in the Pheasant Hills area for a year now and I 'm just curious ,
I am all for wildlife . I 'm appalled at how a lot of other states have not
taken the steps that states like Minnesota have to preserve wetlands and
wildlife areas . However , I 'm real curious about the designation of this
area as a wetland because the only time I 've seen any water in there was
just a couple weeks ago when we had the runoff going in there and we had II the ground still frozen so it wasn 't able to drain but I think as of today
it 's already drained out . And I don't recall seeing very much wildlife in
there to speak of again because there 's not a lot of cover . There are
obviously a lot of deer in the area . We need to preserve that in the
wooded area but again I would just raise the question that I know this has
probably been designated by some authority as a wetland or a lowland or
wahtever but I 'm curious if it really is supporting any wildlife to speak
of . And if it is necessary to again preserve it , if it isn't supporting
wildlife . I know across the street there 's a great area there that was
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 6
' water , etc . and I 'd ask the neighbors that have been here longer than I
have to challenge me if they 've seen a lot of activity in that area .
' Resident : Are you talking about the lowest spot closest to Lake Lucy Lane?
Jim Bergeson: Right here .
' Resident: I can 't see that .
' Koubsky : Yeah , that 's what he 's talking .
Resident: Yeah , there 's water in there .
' Mike Filippi : It is wet and if I 'm not mistaken , the legal definition of a
wetland is baesd on vegetation that grows there and what is growing there
does qualify it as a wetland . It doesn 't necessarily mean it has to be
wet .
Jim Bergeson: I 've never walked through there but again , just observing
' every time I drive by , it doesn 't look like it 's deep enough to support . . .
- Nancy Febry: Hi . I 'm Nancy Febry . I live at 1710 Teal Circle which is
just off of Wood Duck Lane behind Mike Filippi and I 've got 3 daughters ,
' 10 , 8 and 6 . I guess top priority is kind of like a totlot or you know a
jungle gym type of thing in the park . I agree with the neighbors about not
having any more traffic on Wood Duck Lane because like you said , it is a
dead end . We really like that . The children can pretty safely ride their
bikes and play and you don 't have to worry too much since all the
construction is over now . And I like the idea of it being more of a
' neighborhood park and I think that when they 're talking about off of
Lake Lucy Lake parking there , I think that would probably work if you could
angle it . A bike trail off Wood Duck Lane or some kind of walking trail or
path would be in order . I guess that not having any organized sports
there , baseball or softball or hockey games I think would be probably a
good idea . I don 't know that there 's that much room for all those
activities there anyway . Thank you .
' Schroers: Any more comments from the residents?
Don Hasek: My name is Don Hasek. I live at 6520 White Dove Circle .
I guess I don 't understand if we need parking at the park or not . If this
is going to be a neighborhood park and the people in the neighborhood are
supposed to use it , if we put a walkway off the other side like everybody 's
' been talking about , I 'm not sure if we even need parking . If we have
parking there would that encourage other people to come to this park that 's
supposed to be just used for the local area? So I guess I 'd be opposed to
' even putting parking in the area at all .
•
Schroers: Okay , thank you .
Mike Filippi : Can I just ask? You 've got a lot more experience than I do
with this . What is the historical useage of an area like that? Is it
historically neighborhood or does it eventually become more and more
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
March 26 , 1991 - Page 7
people get drawn into the area . It gets busier and busier and busier .
Schroers : No . Neighborhood parks really don 't lend themselves to
attracting a lot of people from the outside for several reasons . One of
which is they can 't accommodate large numbers of people . They don 't offer
the types of facilities that larger groups and numbers of people are II looking for and because most communities have their own little area that
they go to so it really doesn 't draw . When you have a large complex like
Lake Ann where we have the regulation ballfields and that sort of thing and
a beach , that 's going to attact people but neighborhoods generally draw ,
neighborhood parks draw from their own residential area . People that
normally walk or bicycle in to the park . You probably know virtually every
person in there . In the park . You see very few strange faces would be my
guess .
Resident : What type of equipment do you typically put in on a neighborhood
park like this? '
Schroers: That depends . One of the reasons that we 're having this meeting
here tonight is to get input from you who live in the area to find out _what II
it is that you would like there and then when we get that information
we 'll , staff will pass that onto the planners and the design .people and
they 'll try to lay out a concept to see how these things work to fit into
the area . Then they 'll bring it back to us for review and then we 'll
refine it and it will go back and forth a couple of times generally before
we actually get something that we like the way it 's laid out and is
workable . You will probably have a chance to come back in . Or not-
probably . You will have a chance to come back in -and look at the concepts
when they are put together . So basically what we want to do is just get
input as to what you would like to have in your park and we 'll just forward !'
that information to the design and planning people and see what can be put
together .
Lash: And we 're somewhat limited by the size . This is a large park but we I
have some neighborhood parks that have gone in that they 're 1 , 2 , 3 acres
and obviously we can 't have as many facilities on them . I don 't know how
much of this area is actually useable and all of that will be put together II
in the plan . But as an example we 're doing a park over in the Herman Field
area that we 've been working on . Those residents went around their
neighborhood with a survey and asked all the neighbors to prioritize what
they would like to see in the park and I think that 's been very helpful for
us to come up with a phased system so we know what to put in first and what
to tackle each year as we have the funding available . So that would be a
suggestion for you . If you 're interested in prioritizing what facilities II
you 'd like to see in there .
Schroers: We also do consider facilities in the immediate area . What other
close neighborhood parks have and so we don't get too much duplication of
the same types of things. We like to get a little bit of variety so that
we don 't have all the same facilities all over . That way you can move •
around from park to park and enjoy different things. '
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1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 8
Bruce Chamberlain: I 'll address a few of the comments that you had . I 'm
Bruce Chamberlain at Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings and I 'll be working on the
concept development for the park area . I just want to emphasize that at
this point we 're just trying to get as much input from you as we can . I
just want to be kind of the facilitator . The person with the pen that
. writes down your ideas on this park . So I 'll address your comments about ,
' everyone 's comments about the access off of Wood Duck Lane first . As far
as the concept development stage , we 'll be looking at any possible
alternative as far as access into the park . There hasn 't been anything
designated as to what will be happening in the park at all yet . And it is
' possible to come off of Lake Lucy Lane . Is that what it 's called? Access
is possible . So don 't go away thinking that access has to come off of Wood
Duck on the north side because it doesn 't . And we 'll be looking at all the
' issues .
Resident: Are you talking about a vehicle access?
' Bruce Chamberlain : Vehicle access .
Resident: If it 's a neighborhood park , should we be emphasizing vehicle
' access?
. Bruce Chamberlain: Possibly .
' Resident: Could it be a walking path or a bike path or that type of thing?
' Bruce Chamberlain : Sure .
Resident : Because it 's a neighborhood park and we don 't anticipate a lot
of people coming to this park . I guess I 'm not really excited about a lot
of parking spots or vehicles parking on the side of the road . Maybe you
have to have a couple . That 's possible . . .but vehicle access , I mean
anywhere , I don 't think anywhere is keen on that because it 's a nice pretty
' area . There isn 't , whether it 's marshland or wetland or not , I think we
should try and keep as much of it natural as possible . Natural park . You
know the formal structures are great for the kids . Teeter tots or whatever
you call them . The climbing things but there 's nothing wrong with
' preserving the site as it is and just giving us more access to it . . . So a
few structures here and there . An open area and limited access as far as
vehicles .
' Bruce Chamberlain: Yeah , okay . Someone brought up the question of whether
there 's enough room for a ball diamond and there is . Whether that 's
something that you want in your park or not is up to you I guess .
I Resident : It would be a ball diamond and that 's it? That 's our park?
Or would there be a ball diamond and maybe a totlot and a basketball court?
Bruce Chamberlain: Yeah , but as far as , right now I 'm talking about large
open play areas . There 's enough room to accommodate a ball diamond . So
just so you know that .
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
March 26 , 1991 - Page 9
Resident: Would it be like a , are you talking a regular ball diamond with II
gravel infield?
Bruce Chamberlain: Could be . All I 'm saying right now is the space is
available . I just want to , somebody brought up that point . I just wanted
to make it clear that there is room if that 's a desire .
Resident : But that would require a lot of grading and a lot of
maintenance .
Bruce Chamberlain: It would require some at this point. We 're not sure
what . And the only other thing I wanted to say is space , even though it 's
11 .6 acres is limited because of the wetland on the south side and there 's
a fairly steep slope running through it too . So that limits a lot of the
facilities that can be put in the park . Just so you know that . If you
have any questions throughout this , give Todd a call and he can get to me
so don 't feel like you don 't have asay or you can 't give us call because II
you can and I 'll take anything that you say into consideration .
Resident: What is the time line? When this is going to start .
Hoffman : I think we 'll address that a little bit more in our
commissioner 's comments as well as we go through it .
Resident : There 's a river I believe that runs from the top of that hill .
Isn 't there a small little river or creek . How far does the park boundary
go . . .
1
Eric Rivkin: It 's hard for me to get through an evening here in this
chamber without addressing environmental issues but I 'd like to kind of
take off on some comments that a gentleman made in the blue shirt there
about natural features about this park . I don 't know whether this is a
Class A or a Class B wetland . I believe it 's a Class B wetland because
there 's no open water and cattails . Is that correct? You already know
that?
Hoffman: The other wetland up here in the corner is a Class A wetland. ,
Eric Rivkin: This is Class A and this is Class B .
Hoffman: They vary but they both are protected wetlands in the city 's '
ordinances .
Eric Rivkin: Okay . We 're going to have a problem with mosquitoes . We II already do obviously and we 're going to have them whether this is treated
or not by the Mosquito Control District . We could virtually eliminate the
use of harmful pesticides that are used to kill adult mosquitoes that we
use in our park 's currently . . .mosquito habitat which is our largest
nuisance mosquito . And by creating an open water habitat we could possibly
take the soil and put a duck nesting mound in the middle of it which is
typically done in a lot of parks to improve wetlands . There would be
benefit proven . There 's some neighbor , one of them is here tonight and
there 's another one that 's building a house right across here . Both of
i
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 10
them are involved with the Department of Natural Resources to improve their
Class B wetlands to upgrade them to water foul habitat . And they 're being
' reimbursed by the Department of Natural Resources so I don 't think that
you 're going to face much increase or expenditures in improving that
wetland . If you go for , if it does involve a lot of money , I think the
worse that you would ever see is a 50% contribution by the local community
' and a 50% paid for by the State through certain kinds of programs . There 's
Legislative Commission of Minnesota Resources LCMR grants . There 's the
RIM program . Both of which , you know the City has applied for in the past
and could probably apply for again . I 've been doing a lot of investigating
about the Mosquito Control District , as some people may know , and I would
like to see some elimination of the adulticides useage in the parks . These
are the foggers that you see on the 4 wheel vehicles going through the
parks . There are known scientists from the Technical Advisory Board on
there from the University and U .S . Fish and Wildlife Service have told me
that there have been studies done that show that these pesticides kill
birds and beneficial insects . Not just the mosquitoes and cause allergic
reactions in people . I would like to see , because their residues stay on
foliage and if you walk on a trail , rub yourself on the foliage and since
there are playgrounds near-by , children are more susceptible to these , I
would like to .
Schroers: Eric , I think that 's something , that 's an item that should maybe
' be addressed and discussed on a city wide basis concerning all the parks .
It doesn 't pertain only to the agenda item that we 're dealing with right
now .
Eric Rivkin: It just addresses the improvement of the wetland could
possibly eliminate the use of chemicals . That 's all I was saying really .
So just a consideration as a design feature you know , an improvement of
that wetland .
Schroers: Okay , thank you .
Mike Filippi : As long as we 're throwing in ideas for a park . Are there
any parks or what is the city 's stance on the possibility of like open pit
fire areas where we could do some sliding in the winter . . . Is that
something that could or not be incorporated?
Schroers: Do you want to answer that Todd?
Hoffman: Currently there is no city ordinance that limits that , no . The
Commission takes varying stances on providing bar-be-que or open fire pits
in neighborhood parks . Many neighborhood parks do not contain bar-be-que
areas because the residents feel they can do that type of thing at home .
If there 's a special interest for a pit area for a bonfire type of use or
' small fire type of use in the winter , that could be incorporated .
Schroers: Okay . Is there anything more that the residents would care to
add? Okay . At this time then .
Hoffman: Larry if I may , go ahead and enter these letters into the record
for your information as well .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting 1
March 26 , 1991 - Page 11
Schroers: Okay . '
Hoffman: The first one is from Tom , Carol , Sarah , Paul and Mark
Droegemeuller . Dear Park and Recreation Committee . If I were to
prioritize the wish list , this would be the order . 8allfield complete with
team benches and backstop , two tennis courts , full basketball court , picnic II area , drinking fountain , Satellite , grills , playground equipment , parking
area and volleyball pit .
Lash: Ambitious . '
Hoffman: Immediately a need is an area for big kids to play baseball or
soccer . If we are to develop our park area gradually , the ballfield idea
is a top priority . That is grading , seeding , etc . in 1991 . This alone
would create useful park space as we wait for further development through
the years . Next the tennis courts , basketball area , ideally a full court
basketball court to allow for two , one-half games at once . Considering the ,
size of this area and the population , we think two tennis courts aren 't
excessive and should be separate from the basketball area . A picnic area
would be great . Pheasant Hills hosts a neighborhood party for four years . I
Average gathering size is 80 to 100 people . We have held the party in
Pheasant Circle . I 'm not suggesting we design around this size gathering
but we 've established a tradition and would more likely move to the park
site as development of the park enables it . A picnic table and a couple of "
grill grates would be very nice eventually . The drinking fountain ,
Satellite bathroom idea however is a real need in any space designed for
kids to play . The playground area should be geared towards big kids as
well as the toddler set . A full swing set at least . I read somewhere that !!
swingsets are the most timeless of playground equipment and appeal to the
most people . I 'm in favor of the regular playground versus the totlot idea I
only because most little ones , and we have plenty in the area , have their
own swingsets , jungle gyms , etc . and don 't venture out of their own yards
on their own . The big kids can 't play their games in the yards or streets
safely anymore and therefore I place their needs above the toddler set . As '
long as we 're dreaming , let 's throw in a volleyball pit someday if it fits .
Thank you for your considering our wants and needs in this design process .
Tom , Carol , Sarah , Paul and Mark Droegemueller . Second one is from James II
E . Schwartz and family , 1870 Partridge Circle . Our whole family was
ecstatic when we learned that the land off of Lake Lucy Road was going to
become a park . This in fact gives a focal point to the - neighborhood .
Every child should have some type of park where they can go play and feel a I
sense of belonging . Our family will be out of town on March 26th yet we
wanted to send our comments . We feel that the park should evolve as a
small park . We took the time to walk the designated boundaries and up the II
hills yesterday . Several issues came to mind as we thought about the
potential manner in which it could be developed. Number one , plans must
include an access from Pheasant Hills development . This may make the park I
more accessible to neighborhood people and therefore used . More important
is to allow people to walk the park rather than to drive . This is an
important part of the earlier plan , i .e . build a boardwalk or cross the
outlot wetland that the City already owns . A park is just land unless
people can access it to use it . It would be great if there was a mechanism
to allow interested individuals and/or families to take part in the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 12
building or just the cleaning up of the area . Number two , early plans
could include a trail plus basis landscaping and picnicing facilities or
simple chain down tables i .e . to reduce vandalism . Other earlier plans
should include a play equipment and park benches , basketball and/or
volleyball courts would both add activity units . We tried to suggest
certain low cost , high impact areas which lend themselves towards meeting
' the needs of the residents of Carver County . Please feel free to contact
me if I can be of any assistance . Thank you and your committee for
considering our views in these options .
' Schroers : Okay , thank you . We ' ll open it up now for commissioner
comments . Jim , would you like to start us off?
' Andrews : Sure . I 'd like to thank the people who did attend from Pheasant
Hills . This has been an exciting project for ourselves as well that we
weren 't sure ever was going to happen and we 're very pleased that we could
' at least acquire this land . One comment was made about a time line when
this project might be done . I think you have to consider that , especially
with the civic project , that these projects move very slowly . Funding is
going to be extremely tight for this season as well as I would imagine the
next several years . We 're just in the preliminary planning process now . I
would think that it would be some years before it would be a finished
product as far as ballfields and major improvements . I made notes about
' and I 've heard a lot of comments about the play areas , totlot . A lot of
people voiced the importance of lower impact . Leaving some area wild or
natural and I think with the trees and the hills , this creates an unusual
opportunity for us as a Park Board to preserve some wild areas . I think
that 's important . I 'm sure we ' ll be having further meetings to discuss the
plans as they 're presented by our architectural firm and at that time we
have a better opportunity to see what things might be added like a
ballfield , which I think a ballfield or a grass field which could be used
either as a ballfield and a soccer field would be I think a good thing to
consider .
' Schroers: Okay .
' Erhart: I 'd also like to thank the neighbors for taking time out and
coming in and expressing some of their concerns and amenities they 'd want
to see in the area . I think we are looking a little further down the road
here . I think we 're not going to have a lot of money to work with at this
I time and also I 've made notes on first of all your access road off of Lake
Lucy Lane which will be addressed and the open ballfields or a play area .
Picnic tables and a totlot . We will keep people in touch once we have a
plan here and the time limit and go from there . Thank you .
Pemrick: I agree with the first two commissioners here . Their comments . I
' want to add that while parking can be a nuisance if it 's near your home but
I think the idea of putting it on Lake Lucy Lane would make more sense . We
need to keep some parking there just for handicapped accessibility and I
think we own that to any resident that would need that . Maybe even two
' spaces or something . Something like parallel parking could be a solution
there . If there is a wide shoulder along that lane and maybe just a sign
parking here to here or something . Another thing . I guess I hadn 't
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1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting 1
March 26 , 1991 - Page 13
thought of this , about the totlot equipment being more prevalent in the
individual homes and we should be addressing the older children . I guess I
would tend to agree with that , especially since maybe this development II won 't occur for a few more years and at that time it sounds like this is a
fairly young neighborhood and maybe it would be more available to more
children at that point to have older type of playground equipment . Picnic
tables again are very important in a family park . I 'd like to see some
nature and wild spaces left as is . Those are my comments .
Koubsky: I 'd like to thank you all for coming . I had the opportunity to I
walk the area Monday , or was it Tuesday? No , today 's Tuesday . Monday it
was a nice day so it was a good opportunity for me to get out of the office
and go out and look at your neighborhood and I was really taken by the
beauty of the park and the hill with the trees there and just the area in
general . I did enter the park through that little outlot and was kind of
surprised that there was even rumors and it was news to me that that could
turn into an access road . I guess I support most of your comments that you I
made here today that you would not like to see that as an access road but
more possibly of a 3 or 4 foot you know paved asphalt walkway and I tend to
agree with that . That approach . I guess my outlook on totlots is they 're I
easy to design in here . If it got to a point where we would decide to
construct , if you decided not to have them , we could look at. it at that
point but I 'm from a real new neighborhood also and even watching all the
kids come out and all the new baby carriages the last couple of days is
kind of startling . I 'm kind of in favor of totlots . It 's a good place for
parents to go and gather and talk . So I like the idea of kind of a smaller
area . You walk the area and you can kind of see where you can build and
where you can 't without incorporating a lot of site grading and I think
you 'd probably be aghast if the bulldozers came and started tearing your
trees down and filling things up . So I guess I would like to support you II
in that . I don 't see a road coming in on the north end of the park .
Hopefully we ' ll get something designed here and feed that back to you and
you can have a chance to see something on paper and give us some more
feedback .
Lash: I 'd like to thank everyone for coming tonight too and I 'd like to
thank our staff for sending letters out to the residents in a timely
fashion to allow them to be able to be here tonight . I agree with the
residents ' concerns about the access off of Wood Duck and I guess I 'd just
go along with everybody else that we should look at the southerly most
access for parking . I didn 't care for the idea of head in diagonal parking "
where people would have to back out onto Lake Lucy Road . I just think in a
park area where kids are biking and people are walking , I just don 't like II
backing up out onto a road when that's going on so I would like to
look at other alternatives to that . I think as far as picking any specific
site , it 's pretty hard to do that at this point not knowing what facilities
will be there and where we can have them and if we had a parking area and II
all the other facilities are on the other side and people have to walk
through the wetland to get there . We just have to look at the whole
picture when we get the whole plan so I wouldn 't support having it up off
of Wood Duck but I think we need to see the whole plan before we can get
real specific on it . I too would like to see us maintain as many of the
natural areas there as possible . We are working on another park at this
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I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 13
thought of this , about the totlot equipment being more prevalent in the
individual homes and we should be addressing the older children . I guess I
' would tend to agree with that , especially since maybe this development
won 't occur for a few more years and at that time it sounds like this is a
fairly young neighborhood and maybe it would be more available to more
children at that point to have older type of playground equipment . Picnic
tables again are very important in a family park . I 'd like to see some
nature and wild spaces left as is . Those are my comments .
' Koubsk.y: I 'd like to thank you all for coming . I had the opportunity to
walk the area Monday , or was it Tuesday? No , today 's Tuesday . Monday it
was a nice day so it was a good opportunity for me to get out of the office
and go out and look at your neighborhood and I was really taken by the
' beauty of the park and the hill with the trees there and just the area in
general . I did enter the park through that little outlot and was kind of
surprised that there was even rumors and it was news to me that that could
' turn into an access road . I guess I support most of your comments that you
made here today that you would not like to see that as an access road but
more possibly of a 3 or 4 foot you know paved asphalt walkway and I tend to
agree with that . That approach . I guess my outlook on totlots is they 're
easy to design in here . If it got to a point where we would decide to
construct , if you decided not to have them , we could look at it at that
point but I 'm from a real new neighborhood also and even watching all the
kids come out and all the new baby carriages the last couple of days is
kind of startling . I 'm kind of in favor of totlots . It 's a good place for
parents to go and gather and talk . So I like the idea of kind of a smaller
area . You walk the area and you can kind of see where you can build and
where you can 't without incorporating a lot of site grading and I think
you 'd probably be aghast if the bulldozers came and started tearing your
trees down and filling things up . So I guess I would like to support you
' in that . I don't see a road coming in on the north end of the park .
Hopefully we 'll get something designed here and feed that back to you and
you can have a chance to see something on paper and give us some more
feedback .
Lash: I 'd like to thank everyone for coming tonight too and I 'd like to
' thank our staff for sending letters out to the residents in a timely
fashion to allow them to be able to be here tonight. I agree with the
residents ' concerns about the access off of Wood Duck and I guess I 'd just
go along with everybody else that we should look at the southerly most
access for parking . I didn 't care for the idea of head in diagonal parking
where people would have to back out onto Lake Lucy Road. I just think in a
park area where kids are biking and people are walking , I just don 't like
people backing up out onto a road when that 's going on so I would like to
look at other alternatives to that . I think as far as picking any specific
site , it 's pretty hard to do that at this point not knowing what facilities
' will be there and where we can have them and if we had a parking area and
all the other facilities are on the other side and people have to walk
through the wetland to get there . We just have to look at the whole
picture when we get the whole plan so I wouldn't support having it up off
11 of Wood Duck but I think we need to see the whole plan before we can get
real specific on it . I too would like to see us maintain as many of the
natural areas there as possible . We are working on another park at this
I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 14
time that , like I said , Herman Field which has some nice natural areas in 11
there and I think it was a goal of the neighborhood and this commission to
preserve those as much as possible . I think we may be looking at the same
kind of situation here . But as I suggested before , I really think for you
people to get together and let us know and get organized and do a survey
now and maybe as this whole thing progresses over the next few years , check
back with people and see if the wants and the needs are still the same . If
the people are still there or if the kids are in the same age bracket and
just keep us updated on what you would like to see in there . One small
thing , I have a question for Todd on this . Is this being called Pheasant
Hill Park or Pheasant Hills?
Hoffman: The development is Pheasant Hill .
Lash: It is? Okay . I just always thought it was Pheasant Hills . I I
thought it was a typo on here and I thought well before it goes any
further , we 'd better get it fixed , but okay .
Schroers: Alright , thanks . One question that keeps coming up is the time
frame for development . I talked to Todd this afternoon and if I correctly
interpretted what you 're saying , we have basically expended our budget for II
Pheasant Hills Park in the acquisition as far as for this year 's coming or
for this coming year we may be able to do some clearing and seeding and
that sort of thing this fall . This coming fall? 1
Hoffman: Correct . Back up one step further . We really over expended our
budget on acquisition as the Commission and residents already know . 1991
budget contains money to develop this master plan so that is what budgeted
dollars are for the capital improvement program in 1991 . As residents
know , there is some debris in the park up off of Wood Duck Lane . There 's
an abandoned car in that park and there 's many , many large dead trees in
the area . Any type of work activity which the park maintenance crews would !'
partake in in 1991 would come this spring with some initial clearing of the
area to get that abandoned vehicle out of there and any dangerous wood type
structures which there is one particular area which is piled up fairly high
with , I believe it 's an old fort built by the neighborhood kids . Then
potentially later on this fall , some initial , very initial clearing of the
area . Again , then in the fall would begin the 1992 budget process and the II
development of the budget for the fiscal year 1992 . That is the next
opportunity that the commission would have to discuss the overall park
acquisition and capital improvement budget and that would include any
improvements for Pheasant Hill Park in 1992 .
Schroers: Okay , thank you Todd.
Resident: Can I interrupt you for one second? There . . .plans for the 50
foot variance? Right now it 's exposed mud and dirt . Dirt in the summer
and mud in the winter . It 's quite a mess .
Hoffman: What he 's eluding to is , it's typically somewhat of a
neighborhood drop site for leaves , material of that type of thing and that 11
was cleared up , the bulk of that was cleared up last year . Maintaining
that area would include basically mowing of , you know there 's no grass
11
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 15
turf . It 's not established there . There are yards on both sides and
mowing that to , you know there 's no grass or sod would not be planted at
this time unless we deem that necessary but that area would be mowed and
maintained to a more desireable level . In the past , before it was not
under city ownership , it was just left to grow wild as weeds .
Schroers : Okay , thank you Todd . But generally what we 're going to be
looking at then is actually 1992 and 1993 for development and that is going
to be in lieu of how we decided to budget the park funds that we have for
those fiscal years . I think it 's important to point out that we represent
the entire city and we have to be fair with the allocation of funds and if
we stick $100 ,000 .00 into one area one year , you can't go back and stick
another $100 ,000 .00 in there a second or third year and avoid giving it to
another part of town that is just as much in need . So I hope you 'll bear
with us on that because it 's pretty much just like your own expense
account . There 's just so much money to go around and you do the best with
it that you can . We have to be fair about it . Yes .
Mike Filippi : Two questions . Number one , would the City have any
objection if the neighbors were to get together and seed that lot and then
keep it mowed in a proper fashion? And number two , if we so choose to all
get together and possibly do some fund raising efforts amongst ourselves ,
is there a way to insure that those funds would be designated for this
park?
Schroers: Would you address that? I would say yes to both but I would let
' Todd clarify that .
Hoffman: Correct . Yes . Definite yes to both of those .
' Schroers: Okay . Let 's see I had a couple other little notes jotted down
here . I guess what I would like to see from staff and from the design
people is two concept plans . One favoring a more active use type park and
another one with the more passive use plan in mind . And when those
concepts are done , we would have another meeting and get the general
response and get a better feel for what the area will accommodate and where
and how to best use it . I think what we have to do is come up with a happy
medium . In the best of both worlds you 're going to want some active use
amenities for the kids to participate in and you 're also going to want to
keep it nice so there 's going to be a balance and some fine tuning there
' that 's going to need to be done after we get to see the concept plans .
Unless anyone has anything further to add , I would just like to say thanks
very much for coming tonight . Make sure that you have your name on the
' list so we can contact you in the future . And Mr . Mayor has a comment .
Mayor Chmiel : Just those who were representing other people . Put their
names down who you 're representing this evening so they 'll get notification
as well .
Schroers: Okay , thank you very much for attending and we 'll let you know
as things develop .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
March 26 , 1991 - Page 16
VISITOR PRESENTATION:
Schroers: We have two residents in the audience that have a concern in 11 regards to the boat parking at Lake Ann Park so we 'll take those comments
right now . If you 'd come up please and tell us who you are and where you
live .
Gary Coprin: I 'm Gary Coprin . I live in Greenwood Shores at 7052 Tecumseh"
Lane in Chanhassen here . My wife and I frequently use our canoes to canoe
the various lakes in the area including Lake Minnewashta , Lake Ann and Lake
Lucy . We portage from Lake Ann to Lake Lucy and I think that 's done
illegally but that 's neither here nor there . We like to put our canoe on a
trailer and trailer it over to Lake Ann Park and then use the boat launch
there to launch the canoe . There 's no need for a boat launch obviously
with the canoe . We could launch it anywhere but it 's easiest , the access
is easiest at Lake Ann Park . What we find often times , after we launch the
canoe , when we drive up to the parking area that all of the parking spots II
in the parking area are taken up by picnicers and there are plenty of
parking areas in the other parking lots nearby . Even so they seem to favor
that area because it allows access not only to some picnic areas on that II knoll there but also to the fishing pier . But for us who like to trailer
boats around and launch canoes and small boats at Lake Ann Park , we find
that we don 't have anyplace to park our cars because those are the only
parking areas where there 's enough length for a car plus a trailer and what'll
we 'd like to see done is have signs posted at that area saying parking for
cars with trailers only .
Lash: Can it be lined differently too?
Hoffman: Yeah it could be . It could be signage at the end of the stalls II
as well and then either checkered or painted lettering describing the
parking requirements there right on the asphalt .
Schroers: Thanks a lot for bringing that to our attention . I feel kind of"
bad that we hadn 't thought of that and taken care of that ahead of time. It
should have been done . I 've noticed it down there myself . That there are
people just using that as a regular parking lot and don 't think about or
consider leaving space for the boat trailer . So I think that signs are the'
answer and it may not even hurt to add to the sign that says parking
ordinances enforced . Thank you . I
RAILROAD RIGHT-OF-WAY TRAIL IMPROVEMENTS, NORTHWEST CHANHASSEN.
Hoffman: As the Commission is aware , this particular trail improvement has "
been bounced around about the last year and a half to my knowledge .
Originally when it was brought to my attention , I was under the assumption
that that portion of the railroad right-of-way was within the City of
Chanhassen . As noted in your report , that is not the case . You can take all
look at the map behind you as well . As it 's shown there , it looks like the
right-of-way in the upper most upper left hand corner falls just within the "
boundary of the city of Chanhassen. However , the city base map is
incorrect . The line is actually just south of the railroad right-of-way .
So the entire right-of-way is within the City of Victoria . All the way
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting -
March 26 , 1991 - Page 17
from that point where you just enter Shorewood 'back down into downtown
Victoria and beyond out west of Victoria just a little ways . So originally
we had approached it from a position that the City was responsible for a
portion of the upgrade of that trailway because it was within the City of
Chanhassen . After meeting with Curt Oaks and Wint Gay , the Street
Maintenance supervisor in Victoria , my position changed somewhat on that .
The City of Chanhassen and the residents in that area and the residents of
the City in general still receive benefit from the trail but the trail
itself does not fall within the city borders . The discussion that day at
' that meeting , as it always does , generally focused around dollars and who
was going to pay what amount in this particular improvement . The estimate
to improve the segment from TH 7 where it is completely now on the south
' side of TH 7 up through that area and then up to the Shorewood border where
the trail is finished as well so this is just one small segment inbetween
which is left incomplete , is $7 ,500 .00 . Ideally they 'd like to see us pick
up half of that cost . I have a hard time justifying that because only
_I about half of the entire project , this entire $7 ,500.00 for the project
even lies adjacent to the City of Chanhassen . And then as well that half ,
what it came down to is I would feel the responsibility to the upgrade of
about , paying for about 50% of the upgrade of the portion of the trail that
lies adjacent to our city border . It lies within the city of Victoria .
- They would be responsible for upgrading or continuing maintenance . We have
no obligation in that regard . The estimated cost for the actual material ,
the rock material to complete that section was 205 tons at , I believe it 's
$2 .35 a ton . The amount to purchase that one-half of that rock would be
$1 ,075 .00 and then it 's also recommended that we provide the manpower and
' the truck to transport that material and coordinate that improvement
project with the City of Victoria when they complete it I believe sometime
in July . There 's also attached , as I went through the file on that
particular trailway , a letter received from the Mayor of Victoria , Gerald
Schmieg back in May of 1990 expressing their wish that the City of
Chanhassen participate in this particular project . As shown there , the
original estimate was $10 ,000.00 . That has since come down to $7 ,500 .00 .
Schroers: Thanks Todd . I spoke earlier about this with Todd . I have a
particular . . .it gives you bicycle , pedestrian access all the way to Carver
Park which is a very nice amenity and going the other way all the way into
Minnetonka Mills into Hopkins so this trails serves a lot of people . I 've
been on it several times myself and it does get used a lot . And putting in
this last connecting link to really turn it into a nice amenity to have .
Todd thinks that he can sell this proposal to the City of Victoria , then
I 'm all for it .
11 Richard Wing: It seems right at the heart of this is Excelsior . Do you
know what their stance is on improving their portion of this trail? It
goes from Victoria to Hopkins with one short segment that goes through
Excelsior . Do they have any intentions of improving that portion? .
Schroers: You know I don 't think that we have had any conversation with
the City of Excelsior itself and that same question was on my mind because
basically you have to go , the trail for all practical purposes stops at ,
where is that , St . Alban 's Bay? It's paved and then you get down to
Carson 's Bay and then it goes into aggregate and then from there east it
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 18
goes good but the portion between St . Alban 's Bay and County Road 19 . I 1
don 't know why that isn 't done but that is just about , not even fit to walk
on really . It 's the old railroad bed itself . The ties and things have
been taken out . The tracks is not there but there 's been no improvements I
made after that so it 's really a bad area I think . I 'd be interested in
finding out from the City of Excelsior what their intention is .
Richard Wing: I think west of . . .chosen to upgrade . I 'm sure the portion II
from County Road 19 uses Tonka Bay at that point and Excelsior picks up and
then Greenwood . Those three cities . I 'd be interested to know what
they 're saying and what their intentions are .
Lash: I hate to be a wet blanket , and I think it will be a nice asset too
but I guess , I have a problem with this , as small amount of money as it is . II
It 's in the city of Victoria . It 's not in Chanhassen . I don 't see why we
should have to pay anything . If Victoria decided to put a trail that
people in Chanhassen wanted to use , I wouldn't think we would pay for that II
the same if we decided to put a trail out here and people from Victoria
were going to use it . I don 't think they should have to pay us to use it .
I think if Victoria wants to do it , that 's great . They can do it and if
people from Chan want to use it , that 's great too but if it 's in the city II
of Victoria , I don 't see why we should have to pay for it .
•
Schroers: Are there any other commissioner comments?
Erhart: I guess I would just like to know how that discussion all came
about that we would contribute anything to it being that it was in Victoria !'
Todd . And did you talk to the Mayor about us supplying half of the rock?
You haven 't talked to him yet about that?
Hoffman: Hor it originally came up , a year and a half ago and I had ,
somewhat less contact with the project in particular but at that time it
was everybody 's assumption that this portion of the trail did lie within
the City of Chanhassen . At that time some preliminary discussions were 11 held at the Park and Recreation Commission 's level . There were no dollar
amounts mentioned . There were no half contributions mentioned . They were
mentioned but they were not solidified . The only direction the Commission 11
gave at that time was to pursue this activity . To pursue the upgrade and
to date that is exactly what has continued . However , now this sheds a
little different light now that we only lie adjacent to it . The right-of-
way is not owned by either the City of Chanhassen or the City of Victoria I
but it does lie within the City of Victoria. It 's the right-of-way of the
Northwest Railroad and it happens , it 's also the corridor that 's
potentially identified as light rail transit at some time down the line .
Nobody believes that we have to plan on that so that is how we 've gotten toll
this point .
Andrews: Have we contributed to funding to any other trails that would lie ll
in another city but adjacent to our property? Our city property?
Hoffman: Not to my knowledge . ,
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 19
Andrews: I 've got one more question . Have we •received any cooperative
funding for trails that are in our city from other adjacent cities? Are
any of those cities contributed to our trails? -
Koubsky: There 's Cathcart Park up there though .
' Hoffman: Yeah , Cathcart Park is within the City of Chanhassen and operated
by the City of Shorewood . But that 's a park issue . Currently there are no
trailways which lie on a borderline of the City of Chanhassen any other
city .
Erhart: If we didn 't supply half the rock here , would the project be dead
then?
Hoffman: I can 't make any guesses as to how they would approach the
project . There 's other ramifications that do entail the city of Victoria
with the Minnewashta Road upgrade . The Council is certainly aware . The
Commission may not be aware , as Minnewashta Parkway is upgraded , the road
and the trailway , the last southerly portion of that road project and trail
' project does fall within the city of Victoria . You can reference the map
there . As TH 5 goes west and then cuts , Minnewashta Parkway cuts north ,
that little triangle is within the City of Victoria so it 's not that this
is the only cooperative effort which the City of Chanhassen and Victoria is
going to be operating under in the future .
Lash: Okay , so if we are going to be upgrading this road and we decide
that we want to put a trail along Minnewashta and we make the decision to
do that , then I would think that we would be obligated to pay for that even
though this small segment would be in Victoria . If we make the decision
that we want the trail to continue on to be a completed project . That
would be our decision and we would therefore pay for it , I think . This is
in the City of Victoria and if they make the decision to have it in and to
complete it , then they should pay for it .
Hoffman: We can 't the decision as a city what to put in somebody else 's
city but we can certainly go after that type of desire . The road project ,
' the road improvement upgrade does include a 6 foot concrete trailway as
proposed so it is part of that project .
Schroers: Dave , did you have a comment there too? Or are you done Jim?
' Andrews: I have one more I guess and that would be , this does not pertain
directly to this project but I guess I 'm a little bit concerned about a
1 precedent being established here about the cooperative funding . Either way
really . We 've talked about the need of a trail along TH 101 between the
City going up towards the north part of Chanhassen which would be , we have
always taken the approach that we would like to contact Eden Prairie and
look for their cooperative funding even though it was likely to be in the
Chanhassen side of the road so I see both a positive and a negative here
about either providing cooperative funding in something that does not lie
in our city or at the same time if we were not to provide any funding for
this project , how could we then go to Eden Prairie and say we 'd like your
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting '
March 26 , 1991 - Page 20
help on a substantially more expensive project with a substantially higher II
p Y
useage?
Schroers: Good point . '
Lash: Well that is a good point and I guess , but there again going to Eden
Prairie . We have no idea how they 're going to respond to that .
Andrews: That 's right .
Lash: And I guess I wouldn 't fault us for trying just like I 'm not
faulting Victoria for trying . You know why not if they can get us to
contribute , you know more power to them .
Koubsky: I 've never been on this bike trail . It doesn 't seem to me like a
lot of money to cooperate with a neighboring city . I understand and kind
of feel torn . I understand and agree with both comments but for me it 's
not a lot of money . I know with the budgets and all cities are tight . We II
do have a parcel of property up there that 's maintained by another city
other than ourselves that we utilitize and enjoy . I guess I would be in
favor of .negotiating some sort of agreement with Victoria and helping in
some type of way . More as a gesture .
•
Schroers: Okay , thanks . I had pretty much the same idea . I think it 's a II
small price to' pay really for what we stand to gain for it . The completion
of that trail is going to service a lot of people . It 's going to open up a
nice avenue for people to use and enjoy and also I feel keeping the
relations on a positive note with our surrounding -communities is real
important . I would envision that we would be working with Victoria several
more times in the future , especially as Chanhassen expands towards the west"
and we 're going to want their cooperation in the future . And they 're
probably going to want some from ours and this is basically , this is
drastically reduced from the original amount that we were thinking of and I�
think that it 's kind of a good faith offering . I 'm sure Todd considered
that when he put this together and if Victoria would buy this , I think it
would be more than acceptable .
Lash: Do we have money in our budget? ,
Hoffman: Yes .
Lash: How much do we have in?
Hoffman: Again , during the CIP budget proposal we took a look , we
allocated $40 ,000 .00 for miscellaneous trail projects which come up because!'
we can 't forecast them in the future . They just pop up so this small type
of item is certainly , can fit into the 1991 budget .
Schroers: Your point is well taken Jan . I appreciate what you 're saying
but I think we do ourself an injustice by making a real hard line decision
on something like that . I don't see this as a lot of money to expend in
return for what we 'll be getting for it . Future good relations with the
city of Victoria and the completion of a major trail . It 's well worth the
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' Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 21
expenditure as far as I 'm concerned . If there isn 't any more discussion or
comments on this , I 'd be looking for a motion .
' Erhart : I 'd make a motion that we go along with the recommendation of
staff of offering to pay for half the rock using our truck and our man
power .
' Schroers: Okay and did you want to specify the amount?
Erhart: Yeah . $1 ,000 .00 . What was it?
Schroers: $1 ,075 .00 .
' Erhart: $1 ,075 .00 , yep . Thank you Larry .
Andrews: I ' ll second it .
' Erhart moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to allocate $1 ,075 .00 for the purchase of one-half of the rock
(205 tons ) necessary to complete the 3,000 feet of trail adjacent to
Chanhassen . It is further recommended that the City provide the truck and
crew necessary to transport and apply this material and coordinate this
work with Victoria city crews . All voted in favor except Jan Lash who
opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1 .
REPORT: POTENTIAL USER FEE REVENUE, LAKE ANN PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER.
Hoffman: Item 4 is an informational item requested by the Commission at
the last meeting . Again as stated in the report , these are very ballpark
figures but they are based on some factual data and in my opinion represent
a potential scenario at this particular shelter as it 's developed . To
quickly run through it . The picnic shelter rental , the upper area is the
avenue which would generate the most revenue . I took a look at the picnic
season being May through September . 35 weekend days , 109 weekday days .
Gave the calculations some givens as listed there and then took a look at
estimated capacity rate . Obviously we 're not going to book the facility to
' 100% capacity rate so I plugged in 75% and 50% just as a couple of
estimates to give you an idea of revenue . Back to the reservation rates .
Again , those would be reviewed extensively by the Commission prior to
publicizing those types of rates . But the weekend rates of $35 .00 for
resident for a 5 hour block morning and then afternoon and non-resident ,
$75 .00 plus the parking permit vehicle is somewhat similar to what other
11 facilities charge and it 's similar to what was approved earlier in the year
for the other areas . So there 's the estimate of either , approximately
$7 ,500 .00 or $5 ,500 .00 generated in revenue . If you base it on 75% or 50%
capacity . The concession area typically in a public park setting.,
' concessions are offered as a public service . There is potential to generate
revenue there depending on your volume . We 'll take a look . Lake Ann Park
beach is very popular . With the installation of more improvements on that
site , be it the new swimming raft and this building and running water and
electricity , more and more people are going to take advantage of that . So
I think the concession stand can easily meet it 's cost and then as the
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 22
popular area of the site and as you make people more used to using that
concession area . Right now they 're very accustomed to packing their own
type of lunch and that type of thing . But once they get used to using the
service there , the revenue would increase . However , it is my opinion that
the recreational equipment rental , when you take into consideration all t.h
capital costs , the depreciation of equipment and then what you can in turn
go back and charge somebody on an hourly rate for use of that equipment , I
would be best labeled as a non-revenue generating service which would be
provided by the City . Don 't get me wrong , I believe it 's one of the main
services which is desireable for this particular location because Lake Arms
does lend itself to such non-motorized canoe , water bike , what have you
type of recreational activities that I think it would be very well
received . Let 's not leave out Jim 's sailboats . Very well received but
probably not a money maker . '
Schroers: Okay . Thank you very much for that information Todd . That 's
something we will deal with in the future and does not require action at '
this time .
LAKE SUSAN PARK BASEBALL FIELD, OPEN OR CLOSED GATE POLICY-
Hoffman:Hoffman: Item number 5 comes about as we take a look at our first initial
season of the use of the baseball field at Lake Susan Community Park . The
association , the South Lake Baseball Association who will be reserving the '
majority of time there , just because of the sports which they coordinate
and why this facility was built in town , will be the major user of the
facility . As such , they tend to start taking some ownership even though
they haven 't even played on the field . One of their requests , I stopped
into a meeting informally on an evening two weeks ago was how can we
maintain this field in it 's optimal condition? We feel that if adult
softball teams think it sounds good to go ahead and schedule practice at II
the balifield and it 's open and they go ahead and have an adult softball
practice on that field , that it could be detrimental to the grass infield
and to the field in general . Their request would be to close it
altogether . Communities do that . They have the access areas , you know
there 's very minimal accesses to the field theirself . They 're just behind
the dugout is where it 's a fenced area and some communities do go ahead an
fence that off . Paddlelock it and it 's used for games only or games and
practices by the local baseball teams . In light of how we develop our
parks and where the funding comes from in the City of Chanhassen , I believe
we feel very strongly that the facility should be made available to all
residents . I continue to feel that in this case . However , I agree to a II
certain extent with the baseball affiliation that the field was designed
for baseball as it 's specific use . There is no other field with that in
mind in Chanhassen other than the Legion field which is now somewhat in
poor condition and really in non-useable condition for inviting outside
teams to host those types of things . We 'll run into problems just about
any way we look at it but I think at this point , at least advertising that
it is baseball only and then posting that at the field itself and then
going ahead and not actively reserving conflicting uses at that site would
be the best policy to begin with . We can have a wait and see type of
attitude to see how it runs this first year and to take further action in II
future years . We can do so at that time .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 23
Andrews: I had one comment and that is , I think a lot of people have a
misconception of what the word , or phrase baseball even means . I think
some people perceive that to mean any ball use at all of a field . Softball
' practice . Baseball games and softball games . We might need to be more
specific as to trying to define what we 'd prefer to have there and how much
use we 're trying to really eliminate through restrictive use of that field .
Lash: I 'm one of those people . When I read this I thought , well okay . So
anybody who wants to play a ball game over there , yeah that sounds fine .
What 's the problem with having people play softball there? I don 't know .
' Hoffman: It 's developed as a , there 's an elevated pitching mound so the
spot where they 're pitching off is not just a normal flat softball area .
' It 's also a farther distance back than a pitching softball mound so either
people are going to pitch off the mound and try to pitch that long distance
softball or they 're going to move up into the grass infield and that would
start to wear in front of the pitching mound on the grass infield which is
' developed . There 's longer bases so if people attempt to try and move the
bases in , that type of thing . So those are some of the particular
concerns . And as well , we have plenty of other fields available for that
type of use .
Andrews: I would think unless you put some pretty harsh signage up there
that that 's going to get used for softball practices by some team because
the field pressures are just so intense .
Lash: I can even see the local people over there , until their neighborhood
' parks are designed , I mean kids are going to go over there and play .
They 're go over there and fly kites . They 're going to play catch and
people who are picnicing there , if they want to have a quick game of
' softball or whatever you want to call it , they 're going to do it . I guess
I don 't have a problem with it .
Schroers: It 's close enough to the industrial area down there that that
1 may generate interest too and it wouldn 't be inconceiveable that something
would be organized at one of those companies for an evening softball game .
Let 's just go down to the field here and play and then run into a conflict
with the league scheduling or whatever . I think there needs to be a sign
with take Susan Park rules or more specifically ballfield rules if you
wanted to get into that and just designate specifically what the rules are
and how it 's going to be used . I think that we will have to designate
that organized league play or practice gets priority . That just a bunch of
neighbors or industrial people can 't go down there and just rough league
I play .
Andrews: I have a problem with that. I guess my feeling is it should be
open for use and if we can monitor the field and if it 's just getting too
beat up , then you go to the other extreme which is you close it up and you
open it only for reserved purposes .
Lash: Do we have restrictions on the fields at Lake Ann that people can 't
do certain things on those fields?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 24
Hoffman: No . Admittedly this type of policy just stating baseball or
baseball only or no softball practice doesn 't have much teeth into it but
I 'm not at the point yet where we go and fence the thing off and put a
paddlelock on it to reserve it for baseball only . As the commission gets a II
chance to go down to the site , the field is immaculate in it 's baseball
condition . It was designed for baseball . Specifically it has pitching
mounds behind first and third base for the teams to go ahead and have 11 practice pitching . Warm up pitching . That type of thing . The batting
cage will be located in that area . There are electrical outlets to the
backstop for the pitching machines for their practice . The mound was
specifically brought in as a certain compaction clay material and hand
packed into the baseball mound . It 's a well done field and my belief is
that the City of Chanhassen deserves to have a field of that caliber .
There 's no , baseball in this city when I first arrived here was
non-existent . The basic cause of that was that there were no baseball
facilities to be played on so I feel it 's only going to do good for the
community . For the baseball programs . For the Babe Ruth . The Legion .
Eventually a town baseball team could be re-established such as they have
in Victoria and some of the outer lying areas . So whatever we can do to
protect the field would be to our best interest but how we do that , I 'm
still wrestling with .
Andrews : I guess I feel the biggest threat is the destruction of the
infield grass by people pitching , softball pitching from somewhere other
than the mound and I guess if we 're ever going to put signage up , I guess
that would probably be the most important piece of information to pass
along is , please pitch from the bare areas only or designated areas only .
Lash: And designate it organized play has priority or something but I
guess I have a problem . I 'd be pretty bent out of shape if I was over
there with some kids and they were just playing catch and somebody came in II
and said hey , you kids . Get off this field . You can't be playing here .
This is only for baseball and it 's a public park and I was a taxpayer . I
think I 'd be pretty upset about that . And if it requires maintenance , well ,
it requires maintenance . ' That 's the beast of it and it 's something that we
took on by putting in that kind of a field but I just don't think that we
have the right to tell people that they can 't , unless they 're abusing it ,
I 'm not comfortable telling people that they can 't play on it . I
Andrews : I think signage should be more informational than restrictive .
This is a designed baseball field and please try to preserve the grass II infields , grass areas and let people use it . I guess I agree with Jan . I 'd
have a real difficulty as a taxpayer coming to a field with my softball and
my glove and seeing a sign that says you can 't use this field because it 's ,
a baseball field when I 'm going to go out there and play catch . I mean I 'd
be real ticked.
Hoffman: As well as mentioned , picnics which use the pavillion as well ,
one of their number one activities is going to be having organized ball
games.
Lash: If by putting up signage we can at least make suggestions as to how II
to preserve it and not trash it right away , we can do that but I don 't see
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 25
any way of enforcing it and I wouldn 't want it stated in such a way that a
person would go there and say well I can 't play' catch here with my kid or
my kid can 't use the field to fly a kite or whatever he wants to do as long
as the neighborhood parks aren 't put in over there . This is going to be it
for those people for a while .
Koubsky: Todd , how big is the baseball association or how big is the
league do we have here?
Hoffman: Teams comprise of , you have a better estimate?
Ruegemer : Yeah . Currently under the South Lakes Baseball Association ,
it 's involved with all the CAA members . Or CAA Board members . South Tonka
Little League . All the AAU programs . 13 , 14 , 15 and 16 year olds . Legion
baseball program and all these associations get together and it 's comprised
of the South Lakes Baseball Association . As far as numbers , it 's hard to
estimate . I know numbers are up drastically from last year .
' Lash: Do you have any idea how many nights a week?
' Koubsky: How many games?
Hoffman: They 'll be playing there 5 nights a week and there 's no lights on
it so they 'll be tying the field up from 5:30 until dark pretty much 5
' nights a week as it 's currently anticipated . We will not be in scheduling
or do not anticipate scheduling until at least June to give the field some
further growing time . So the weekend play is there as well . They 'll be
playing . It 's their home field . I mean they 'll be scheduling games there
and having games there on Saturday and eventually Sundays so it 's going to
be used extensively by the baseball teams .
Lash: So if we post a sign saying organized team has priority or whatever ,
it would eliminate a lot of the nightly activity by anyone else .
Hoffman: Correct .
Schroers: That sort of polices itself . I mean when a whole team shows up
in uniform with bats and marches out there , it 's just kind of a statement .
Hey we 're taking over . But if you happen to have one of the companies
nearby had organized a game and went down there and there wasn 't any sign
to that effect and they say hey , we were here first . Take your little
baseball players somewhere else . There's a possibility for a confrontation
like that . I don 't think that it 's out of line to try to have our
facilities used what they were designed to be used for and to offer some
1 general rules and guidelines . I agree with what Jim said about
informational signs . I don 't think we 're going to go out there and arrest
a 5 year old if he 's using a softball instead of a baseball but you know ,
' just some general guidelines and rules to let people know how we would like
to have the facilities used and basically'what they 're for . Get that
information across and then you know , unless somebody 's doing some damage ,
we can 't go and tell someone that they can 't go and play softball there if
nobody else is there .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 26
Erhart : Well Larry I also think , just knowing the group at Emerson that
does play ball , they would never go over there without calling the City to
just see where they could practice . Now maybe some of the other companies
would . I would just as soon most companies , especially when a lot of the
people working there are not in this area . They don 't live in this area ,
I think it would be just normal to call the city and see what the
guidelines are and where you can practice and what is available . I can't
see a whole company going over there .
Schroers: I would think if they were organized to that point that they
maybe would call and check but I can also see some of the guys out on the
loading dock saying let 's get a little game together and go over there and
play ball . They may not check but it 's probably a remote chance that there
would be that type of a conflict but it just , I don 't think that it hurts . 11
We do that all over Hennepin Parks . At the beach there 's a sign that 's
like a billboard that says Beach Rules . That 's not necessarily an
informational sign . That specifically states Rules and Regulations
concerning the use of the beach and I don 't think that 's inappropriate at
all . I think we should look at those facilities . We went to a lot of
trouble to design a facility . . .everybody agreed was needed here and I think
that we should promote that idea and at least not encourage other off the
wall uses of the area .
•
Lash: Yeah . Well if we try the signage and then maybe review this again II next year at this time and you ' ll have the information as to how much abuse
it took .
Andrews: Do we need a motion here? -
Hoffman : Yes , please .
Andrews: I move that we direct staff to provide informational signage and 1
to monitor useage of the field and to make sure that the signage not only
talks about preservation but also priority of useage so there 's no
misunderstanding with our citizens .
Pemrick: I 'll second that .
Andrews moved, Pemrick seconded to direct staff to provide informational
signage, versus a prohibitive context, stressing the proper manner in which
the baseball field at Lake Susan Park should be used. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously.
Hoffman: Thank you . You can as well probably all keep in the back of your
mind that at some point they 'll be looking for lights on that field .
Andrews: We can get the lights when we mine that gold mine over at
Pheasant Hills Park . ,
Hoffman: There you go .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 27
CANOE RACK RENTAL , LOTTERY SYSTEM .
Ruegemer : What I just passed out is kind of a revision of what the canoe
rack application looks like here . Just to give you a little background
information . Just in recent events here . A certain individual has
contacted the City with thinking that he has a special consideration . Him
and his wife possibly with health complications and they thought they might
be under that special population and might have , you know be considered not
favored but to get a canoe spot down at the Carver Beach area . And just I
guess what I 'm trying to develop here or formulate is kind of an even
distribution to take in when applications are processed , to look at these
special groups like the senior or the handicapped persons in the area or
anybody with health complications to kind of grant them a canoe spot in
their desired areas . I guess what I 'm looking for on the commission level
is to maybe give direction of how to formulate this type of lottery system
or distribution system . To take into consideration any special needs of
people in Chanhassen . .
Lash: We have these at Ann , Carver Beach and Lake Susan?
Hoffman: Lake Susan will be installed this year .
Lash: Which one in your opinion is the most easily accessible if a person
was handicapped?
11 Hoffman: We 'll attempt to make them all fairly accessible and they all
will be . The one at Lake Ann is just off of the access road . Carver Beach
is just off of the gravel road which abuts the lakefront there as well .
And then the one at Lake Susan would be located very near to the parking ,
the handicapped stalls and the boat access . I believe what they 're
speaking of is being favored as an applicant to have that particular site
where they can store their canoe because they 're not able to easily
transport back and forth their canoe like an able bodied person would be .
Lash: Transport it back and forth?
Hoffman: From their home to the lake .
1 Schroers: Well what generated this was a request from an individual who
did receive a permit last year correct?
Hoffman: Yes . The permits came in so late last year , anybody who called
when they were installed late in the season we just said go ahead and use
lone ,
Schroers: He did receive a permit last year and he likes to use the one
and this one is at Carver Beach . He feels that if he is not granted the
' permit , that the condition of his health would make it difficult for him
and his wife to use the canoe . They like to be able to just go down and
get it off the rack , put it in the water and canoe . Okay . That 's
convenient but you know , who determines how healthy a person is? I mean
are you healthy enough to go canoeing if you can't move your canoe
around? There 's different ways to look at this so you know , it would be
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 28
nice to be able to say that we can give one handicapped person or one
senior citizen or you know , preference to a permit and then have the rest
on a lottery system . How many total spaces are we talking about? You know
it mentions percentage here Jerry . Have you looked at what the percentage II
would be?
Ruegemer : I guess it would be based on the demand . How many actual
applicants were to have like handicapped or health complications .
Hoffman: Six canoes per rack .
Schroers: Six canoes per rack and we 're talking about a total of 3 racks? II
Hoffman: Correct . I
Schroers : So we 're talking about 18 canoes .
Lash: How many applicants did we get? '
Ruegemer : Up to today we 've had 6 applications which I know probably a
couple of more coming in . But just to break down of the sites , Carver II Beach has 4 , Lake Ann has 1 and Lake Susan has one . So this isn 't really a
short term problem but possibly a long term .
Hoffman: It 's a very new program . People aren 't used to using it yet .
Koubsky: So do you lock your canoe here where you keep it there
permanently? Or for the season? I
Hoffman: Correct .
Koubsky : Does that cost anything? ,
Ruegemer : $20 .00 per year .
Schroers: How do you feel about designating one spot per rack as special
request and in order to gain access to that special request rack , they have
to give some valid , substantial reason as to why they should be considered . II
I mean obviously if they are physically handicapped or in a wheelchair or
something like that or they 're senior citizens and it 's difficult . They 're
not as mobile or whatever but they should , it should be monitored I guess
so just anbody can't call up and say hey , I need special consideration
because I don 't like to carry my canoe from the parking lot down to the
lake .
Lash: I need this cleared up . . .tonight . They prefer one location .
Hoffman: Correct .
Lash: It 's more convenient for them to get to that specific location to
get their canoe .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 29
Schroers: They 're residents that live near the rack and they want to put
their canoe on the rack and go down and throw it in the lake .
Lash: That makes sense . Everybody would want to have their canoe at the
canoe rack that 's closest to their house . Whether you 're handicapped or
you have poor health or you 're a senior citizen or whatever . That just
makes sense . Now it just seems to me if you want a specific location and
you aren 't interested in the other ones , maybe what we need to do is
separate the lottery system by locations and then they can apply for
whatever one they 're interested in . Then if they don 't care , they can
apply to all of them .
Hoffman: That would be our intent to separate them .
Lash: I mean unless they 're , if they 're all handicapped accessible , my
thought was well maybe the only one that was handicapped accessible would
be Lake Ann . Well if they 're all handicapped accessible , then I don 't see
the problem . Just because it 's more convenient to get there unless they
can fall out their door and land by the canoe rack , they 're going to have
to get into their car or they 're going to have to walk or they 're going to
have to bike or wherever they go , they 're going to have to get there
somehow . Now what difference does it make whether you 're going to Carver
Beach or you 're going to Lake Ann except for the convenience factor? I
don 't really think that has anything to do with it here . If the canoe rack
itself is accessible , then getting there is not our problem .
Hoffman: What they 're saying ' is if there 's 10 applicants , I 'm the only one
who has a special need and you give it to 6 other applicants , then I feel
I 'm unfairly treated . So is there an avenue to give me priority .
11 Schroers : I think the other thing , the other deal about that is that
people identify with their area and that 's kind of why there are 4 racks
for Carver Beach and only 1 for Lake Ann . Nobody lives there and they sort
of , you know don 't identify that as theirs but I get the feeling that these
people want to canoe on their lake and that 's why they 're putting in their
request for there .
Lash: Yeah , I agree and I don 't want to pass judgment but I don 't know
that it really has anything to do with their health . I think they just
want to canoe at Carver Beach , which makes sense but are we going to
give . . .
Schroers: Well , this person was very intent . He contacted the City . He
' contacted me at home twice and you know , I 'm not in a position to judge
what his physical status is either but I think that it brought up a point
and do we want to give special consideration to the elderly or the
handicapped in regards to making something like this available to them or
' do we just want to say well it 's straight lottery . You will apply and if
you get chosen you 've got a spot for the year . If you don 't , you 'll have
to try again next year . I mean that 's fair . That does not single out
anyone . That does not give anyone preferential treatment of any kind .
It 's lottery . You put in your name . If you get chosen , you get a spot .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 30
Andrews: I 'd like to make a comment . I like the simple solution you
presented Larry which is like one slot per location as a special needs
priority . I feel like that may not accommodate all the need that we have
in a particular year but it does provide some access for people with II special needs . I think to come to the , if you 're asking us to define what
percentage of handicapped , senior citizens or divide it further than
that , I guess I feel we 're trying to come up with too much formal
definition rather than just relying on common sense and the ability of
staff to make a determination as to is there significant need to give this
person the reserved spot even though we 've already given out the other 5
spots .
Lash: Okay , is the specific hardship here that if he doesn 't get a spot
it 's so difficult to go canoeing that they can't? I
Schroers: Yes . That 's the way it was explained to me .
Lash: But , and we get back to , does it have to be at a specific spot and
he 's saying that it has to be at a specific location .
Hoffman : One at each rack .
Schroers: Yeah the thing is , there may be only one special request like
that in the entire city for a year so it doesn 't mean that we can 't say
we 're going to designate one special use canoe rack per unit but that
doesn 't mean that if we don 't get a request for a special use , that someone
else just can 't rent that normally if they want to . All we 're doing. is
providing a vehicle here that we can accommodate someone that has a
particular need if the need arises . And so far I know of one such
situation in the city and it may never come up again but we can rent out
the other 5 spaces first and then if no one else has requested for a
special use up to that point and someone else wants to rent it , rent it
out .
Andrews: I 'd like to add to my comments if I might . ,
Schroers : Sure .
Andrews: I guess I feel that we should reserve one spot per rack . That we II
should hold that spot until May 31st . If we have not had an application
with a special need , that we release that spot to the next available
person . Just use that as a way of administering a program .
Koubsky: I guess if this policy gets out , what happens if you get 3 II requests for the rack . Do you hold a pre-lottery and then roll the losers
of that lottery into the general lottery?
Hoffman: Correct . That would be right . ,
Andrews: I guess the other comment I 'd like to add is that I guess I feel
reservation of slots should not be grandfathered from one to the next
either . I 'd like to add that comment . That each person should have equal
access on an annual basis .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
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' Schroers : That is the way it 's set up right?
Hoffman: Right .
Lash: And then maybe we should break it up by location . Maybe there are
people who if they can 't have it at Carver Beach don 't want one at all . So
they don 't want to be drawn in the drawing for Lake Ann or whatever . Do
they put that on the application?
Hoffman: Yep . Order of preference .
' Schroers: It looks to me like the application is laid out really well .
Ruegemer : Is it the Commission 's opinion then to leave , would you like me
to leave the little paragraph in there about the canoe rack location will
be assigned on an individual . . .? Is that something that can stay on the
applicant itself?
IHoffman: Let 's change that wording to reflect what they 're recommending
this evening .
Ruegemer : Okay .
" Koubsky: Should we put on here Jerry an indication of how much , you know
that it is a $20 .00 fee so they know as they 're applying that it will cost
them?
Hoffman: Absolutely .
Ruegemer : Good idea .
' Schroers: Alright would you like to formulate a motion to accept this?
Lash : Can I just ask another question? I 'm sorry I 'm so dense tonight .
1 So someone calls up with a special needs and they want to request one at
Carver Beach and no one else with a special need wants to request one . Do
they automatically get the one slot?
Hoffman: Sure .
Lash: Okay .
Schroers: So we 'd then be looking for a motion .
' Andrews: I move that we designate one slot per location to be held for
special needs with a cut off date of May 31st . After that point the
reserved slot would be given to the general lottery for the selection of
the spot . Try to put that in words would you?
Hoffman: We 'll get it down .
Schroers: Staff will refine that . Is there a second?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 32
Erhart: Second . I
Lash: Put in there about if there 's more than one applicant .
Hoffman: Yes .
Schroers: Okay , Jim moved and Dawne seconded .
Andrews moved, Erhart seconded to reserve one canoe rack space per canoe
rack for persons with special needs and to hold that space available until II
May 31st . All other spaces are to be designated using a lottery system.
In the case of multiple special need applications, a pre-lottery is to be
held prior to the general lottery assigning the one special needs space.
The other applicants will then be considered in the general lottery. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously .
Andrews: Mr . Chairman , I 'd like to ask one more question about these rack II
rentals that don 't pertain to this but , why is it that . . .floats can 't be
stored on these? Like I have a Sunfish off of a sailboard that 's a general
pain in the neck to lug in and out . Is there any reason why those couldn 't
be eligible for rack storage?
•
Schroers: I think you 're just renting a spot there . What you put on it is
your business as long as it doesn 't damage the rack or prohibit other 11
people from using it in the manner in which it was designed .
Hoffman: As long as it 's a watercraft and that could be stated on here in II
some form .
Lash: So do commissioners get preferential treatment?
Koubsky : Just like the Health Department .
ARBOR DAY CELEBRATION, SPRING CLEAN UP DAY AND SPRING FESTIVAL. I
Ruegemer : Just to give you a little update on what 's going to be happening
this coming spring . There 's going to be the annual tree give away . The
Arbor Day celebration. Tree give away at the Colonial Center coming up
April 26th at the same time as last year , 11 :30 to 6:00. I presume I will
be present most of the day and the Cub Scouts will then take over after
they get done with school . That is the same as last year . Emerson has
graciously donated the trees again this year so those will be available
that day . The annual spring clean up day will be based somewhat on the
format as last year . Getting information out to local homeowners and city II
citizens and other concerned area businessmen and group leaders as far as
cleaning up and being more aware of the environment and taking their pride
in Chanhassen and cleaning up their area . And it will try to be , all these
two events are going to try to be tied into the third , the spring festival .
The spring festival idea or concept was developed by Chris Polster is
developing a foundation , the tree foundation for the City of Chanhassen
who 's overall goal is to reforest the area of Chanhassen and to also
educate the youth of Chanhassen as far as giving the City of Chanhassen
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March 26 , 1991 - Page 33
sense of history . What it was like 150 years ago because it was mainly
forest from here up to northwest of here all the way up to Canada the way
it sounds . So that would be the main idea as far as educating the kids .
' As far as another long term goal is to make enough or raise enough revenue
to purchase land in the future to hold little field days for the kids to go
out and learn more about the environment in the Chanhassen area . The
' overall , as far as the festival concept , it started out to be a month long
celebration as far as getting local business people into the schools and
other areas such as the media into schools and give class presentations to
the kids in the school just to kind of educate them . How what they do as a
I/ business affects the environment as well as making it fun for the kids .
Just basically get the community involved with the local businesses and try
to get a general sense of community in Chanhassen . As far as some of the
' events that are going to be taking place , I was at a meeting yesterday and
we 're going to try to develop like a medallion hunt kind of based on the
St . Paul Winter Carnival . That will be like a 10 day event . The clues
will be advertised in the Villager . You know like the week before we 'll
have kind of a kick off on Thursday before and give the first clue that
day . Then what we 'd try to do is get the local businesses involved as far
as getting an advertisement in the Villager and being more kind of ,
II developing like a , I guess our goal is trying to get , generate business in
the community of Chanhassen . It 's kind of put together and work
cooperatively with each other as far as putting kind of the power together
and working for the people . What the goal is to get the local businesses
involved with putting clues in . You know people can go into their store ,
whoever sponsors the event , can go into stores and get their clues daily
and just to kind of , as far as this process , buttons will also be available
and if you have a button , if you do purchas a button then you 're eligible
for certain types of drawings . And if you find the magical medallion , then
you 'll be , if you have a button then you 'll get the full , they were talking
about a cash amount . A fixed dollar amount which hasn 't been determined
yet but if you do have a button , then you would get the full amount . If
you didn 't have a button then you 'd get like half the amount . So it 'd be
' based on the medallion hunt from the St . Paul Winter Carnival with the same
types of rules and regulations . As far as hiding the medallion , it would
be on all city owned property or public property so we don 't get into the
trespassing issues . Safety issues . We 're going to try to make it as safe
as possible . Just to kind of get another special event to get the
community involved with this type of program. And just to get the kids
involved as far as the overall goal of what they 're trying to achieve with
this foundation is to reforest the area of Chanhassen and to kind of have
results of kids into the future . Saying that we were involved with that
project and giving them a sense of future . Seeing their forest project
grow into trees and that type of deal . So we 're still in the formulating
process with this special event which is scheduled to have an it over all
the week of like the , wrap up like the 20th or 25th or whatever . That week
of April and how this whole event would tie into the spring clean up and
' the planting of the Arbor Day trees with that so that 's our main intent
with this . We have local businesses are already stating that they would be
willing to participate in this type of special event . As far as people
involved . .The bank is involved . Chris Polster 's involved . City staff is
involved . The Villager 's involved with providing advertising at a reduced
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 34
cost . We 're just kind of throwing our forces together here and trying to
make this a special event .
Schroers: Sounds like it 's well thought out . Hopefully it 's going to be a
success . This is not an item that you 're requesting any action? ,
Ruegemer : No . Just an informational item .
Schroers: Okay , good . It sounds like you put a lot into it .
Koubsky: One comment Jerry . You might want to give either the U .S . Forest 11
Service or the DNR a call . Most of those folks go out and give public
presentations all the time and it might give a different outlook as to how
they perceive the environment versus NSP because NSP is going to be
basically we 've left it cleaner than when we first started . And the same
with the paper companies . They 're just going to say how good they are for
the environment and maybe a regulator approach might be good .
Hoffman: - NSP 's a pretty good tree trimmer .
Koubsky: But DNR , all those State agencies , they 're pretty receptive to
requests for that and there 's people that enjoy doing that .
Ruegemer : We talked about that also . What type of special events or
speakers would be appropriate for this type of special event . Phyllis 1
Brown who 's working with us , she 's from the school . Chanhassen Elementary
and trying to screen the speakers so to speak . Just to kind of see if it
would be beneficial to them . I
Koubsky: The Sierra Club . There 's other local organizations too .
Ruegemer : Yeah . Just another local contact is Curb. I
•
Hoffman: Curbstake .
Ruegemer : Curbstake from the Rotary . He 's been involved with the
environment for a number of years and he 's been down to the Rain Forest and
other parts of the world and he has really up to date knowledge on that
subject matter .
Koubsky: Isn 't there a Freshwater Institute right near by us as well? Is
that in Chaska? ,
Lash: It 's in Navarre .
Schroers: Navarre . Lake Minnetonka . 1
Hoffman: Good resource .
Schroers: Okay , Jerry were you going to tell us about the spring clean up?
Ruegemer : I touched on that briefly . It 's going to be May 4th. We 're
going to try to get the local businesses and neighborhood associations ,
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 35
local scouting groups , gardening and contact with some people in the area
as far as cleaning up the parks and designated area .
Schroers: Very good .
' Andrews: I have a comment here . Some of this information is being through
the school system , is that correct?
Ruegemer : Yeah .
' Andrews: Do you work with the Minnetonka School Districts as well as
Chaska?
Ruegemer : No , just mainly Chanhassen .
Andrews : Okay . Because our kids go to Clear Springs and I noticed here
also about the Easter Egg Hunt . You 're missing a part of Chanhassen there
as far as the distribution of information .
Ruegemer : All that information is distributed to Clear Springs . It 's put
in the rack as you walk in .
. , Hoffman: It 's always our intent to , we 've very aware of the split of all
the different school districts and zip codes , etc . and it 's always our
11 intent to notify . In fact we do more to try to notify the people that are
outside the so called core area of Chanhassen . Clear Springs is somewhat ,
they 're different than the other schools in that they will not distribute
directly to the classes . They won 't even make material available in that
front rack . All the other schools will distribute in a Wednesday packet
day directly to each student .
Andrews: We 'll work on that because I 'm going to be in trouble on this
Easter Egg Hunt .
' Schroers: I have a question . I think we were pretty much done with item 7
then , is that correct Jerry?
Ruegemer : That 's correct .
Schroers: Okay , were you asking for volunteers from the Commission then or
did I miss that or did we just kind of .
Erhart: He hasn 't asked yet Larry .
' Lash: We 're already onto the Easter Egg Hunt .
Schroers: I 'm not saying that we have to have that . I mean we can , if you
feel that you can get accomplished what you want to accomplish without
having commissioners , because they do volunteer a considerable amount of
time here already but I just didn 't hear that and in the past it has been a
part of the program . Some of us have had the opportunity to participate in
that and I certainly didn 't want to deny anyone .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 36 1
Lash: You already said , if you volunteer for the playground committee , you II
wouldn 't have to do this .
Schroers: Well it 's not as though you have to . But you 're right , I did
give myself an out . ,
Erhart: The only problem is by that time I might not be able to bend over
very good you know .
Schroers: Well you did it last year .
Hoffman: We 're down to three . 1
( There was a tape change at this point in the meeting . )
UPDATE , ANNUAL EASTER EGG HUNT .
Ruegemer : . . .It 's hard to say what we 're going to have . Last year we had II
around , I think it was around 400 parents and kids . So it 's hard to look
at this . . . We do have the National Honor Society again helping out from
the Chaska High School . They were more than happy to volunteer again so we 11
have rabbit suits for them so we set up little tables and they can help-
with the basket making and that type of information . Sending kids to the
start line for the candy hunt and that . But we do need volunteers for the
coloring contest if you 're interested . I
Lash: You mean judging?
Ruegemer : Judging . I
Hoffman: It 's always a real emotional job as well .
Lash: That 's why I signed up for picking up garbage . I 'm afraid I 'd be
biased.
Schroers: It seems that someone who was planning on attending that event ,
anyway would be a good candidate .
Andrews: I 'm going to be out of town . 1
Schroers: Jim 's going to be out of town .
Koubsky: It looks like rain .
Lash: When is it now? This Saturday? What time would the person have to II
be there to do the judging?
Ruegemer : The kids are going to be turning in the coloring entries II probably starting at like quarter to 12:00 , 11 :30 . Somewhere in that area .
As they come in to the event here , we 'll probably wrap up probably at 1 :00 .
Lash: I can do that . I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
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ISchroers: 11 :30 to 1 :00 . We 've got a volunteer . Thank you Jan .
Hoffman : Maybe we should have grabbed the Mayor while he was here .
Lash: Yes .
Schroers: Boy that 's an opportunity to score points you know .
Lash: But I can do this anonymously . Because a lot of these little kids
coming in are going to know me .
Hoffman: They 'll see you posting them though and they 'll know .
Schroers: Okay , does that take care of item 8 then?
Ruegemer : Yes .
' AGENDA , JOINT PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION/PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION
MEETING .
Hoffman: 9 is as straight forward as they get . There 's a proposed agenda
there for the joint Park and Recreation Commission/Public Safety Commission
meeting . Unfortunately , as you can see , it 's going to be a lengthy evening
11 in total . Not only do we have that meeting but then we need to reconvene .
Leave the Fire Station , reconvene here and discuss the all important Lake
Ann park community shelter as well . So another full agenda that evening .
Andrews: I 'd like to add an item on there if I could?
Hoffman : Sure .
Andrews: Just a clarification of what the boat traffic regulations are ,
particularly on Lake Ann . I know there 's a directional traffic , at least
on weekends about which way you 're supposed to go around the lake .
Hoffman: On Lotus?
Andrews: Yeah . And if there are any other similar type regulations . I 'm
not looking for what our State law is but if there are any particular City
ordinances regarding boat traffic or boat useage on our lakes , I 'd like to
know those too .
Hoffman: Okay .
Lash: Are you talking about these vehicles in the park property or just
within?
Andrews: Enforcement issues . They had snowmobiles , jet skis , ATV 's-. I 'd
just like to add about boat traffic regulations so I 'm aware of what they
are .
Lash: I didn 't mean that to come out that way . I just meant , on the
agenda does this mean within park property or just within the City?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 38 '
Hoffman: In general , the park patrol would cover those types of activities II
within a park . However , snowmobile , jet skis , ATV 's fall under
recreational activities which then impact the Park and Recreation
Commission . So those are in general throughout the city .
Lash: But we 'll be talking specifically about those right?
Hoffman : Ordinances , etc . . 1
Schroers: Are you going to be sending out a packet on that?
Hoffman: No . I
Erhart: This is it?
Hoffman: Yep . That would be it .
Andrews: The other thing I 'm sure we need to discuss by this one . . .own
informational uses is what are our city ordinances regarding alcohol useage
in park properties .
•
Hoffman: 'City Ordinance No . 134 . 1
•
Andrews: Is that what it is?
Hoffman: Yep . I wasn 't going to list , once you get into it but I could I/
have explained that it was the alcohol related ordinance . I apologize for
that . '
Schroers: I 'm sorry . I don 't know if I have this totally clear . We will
be receiving nothing further in the mail in regards to the meeting of April
9th?
Hoffman: The joint meeting , no . The meeting on Lake Ann Park community
shelter , yes . You will receive an item . A packet on 'that item . ,
Schroers: Can you add a little reminder on there that we 're meeting
earlier at the Fire Station just to help remind everybody that evening .
Lash: And include another copy of the agenda .
Hoffman; Okay . It 's not a formalized meeting . We won't be making
motions , recommendations . It 's just a general discussion type meeting so
for staff to go ahead, and prepare a formal packet just is not felt to be
necessary . I
Schroers: Okay , good . All I was asking for was a reminder because this
could get lost between now and then .
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS.
Hoffman: Just for your own information . At last night's Council meeting , 11
the $20 ,000 .00 was allocated out of the Community Development Block Grant
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' Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 26 , 1991 - Page 39
A
money for the handicapped accessible play area to conclude that project on
the north side of the school . There was $37 ,000 .00 total available through
that grant program . $20 ,000 .00 went to this . Approximately $7 ,000 .00 went
' to the South Shore Senior Center for their program . $3 ,200 .00 to an adult
day program in a church in northern Chanhassen which is operated by an
independent firm and then the remainder of the money to make the Old City
Hall handicapped accessible . We did operate a program there with a
handicapped instructor and they could not access the building without a
temporary ramp being constructed and any left over money being put into the
transit system to assist in making their buses handicapped accessible . As
well , the South Lotus Lake improvement project , plans and specifications
were approved last night and they were approved and bidding will take place
within the next week on that project . That 's all I have Larry .
Lash: Can I ask my question now?
' Schroers: Yes ma 'am .
Lash: On the memo concerning that playground at school and the committee .
Now are they just taking care of this whole thing and we 're never going to
see anything about it again or are the plans going to come back to us first
or who has the final say?
' Hoffman: No . However you would want to . Are you speaking of the letter
to Kathleen or to the Advisory Committee?
Lash: The Advisory Committee .
Hoffman: The Advisory committee will , once they make a final
recommendation on a design or a vendor , we 'll take that back to the APT and
to the Park and Recreation Commission . Both for their final stamp of
approval . This Board is very capable of making those types of decisions
but we 're spending the City 's money and putting it into the school 's
' location so both governing bodies of those two organizations certainly
should have the chance to voice their opinion as well .
Lash: Okay .
Schroers: Anything else on the Administrative Packet? If not , a motion to
adjourn is in order .
Lash moved, Erhart seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and
the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:58 p.m. .
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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I
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION `i
11111ETrrali SPECIAL MEETING „�
APRIL 9, 1991
Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 8:.
50 p.m . .
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews , Dawne Erhart , Curt Robinson, Larry Schroers ,
Dave Koubsky , and Jan Lash
MEMBERS ABSENT: Wendy Pemrick
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Coordinator ; Jerry
Ruegemer , Recreation Supervisor ; and Mark Koegler , Van Doren-Hazard-
Stallings
LAKE ANN PARK COMMUNITY PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER.
Hoffman: Thank you Larry . This is the second of two meetings. Basically
' we want to keep it somewhat informal as a work session by the Commission.
The initial meeting discussing this item . . .recommendations about design
mechanisms and overall maintainability and those types of issues were
brought up by the Park and Recreation Commission . Those in turn were noted
JIand brought back to Mark and the folks at Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings to go
- ahead and incorporate into the plan and the design scheme of this
• particular building . So what you have before you this evening represents
' those changes as noted . Again as Mark explained in his brief, this is not
a final plan . It is not a blueprint. It does not include light switches.
The spigots which we talked about and those types of things but those have
' been duly noted and will be incorporated in the final design. A couple
issues which we specifically should discuss tonight is the change in
railing design. There was concerns about the railing in that if a person
went up to the railing in the initial design , layout and looked over it ,
' they could see people directly below you and could lob bomb those people
pretty accurately because they can see them . As shown in the new layouts ,
there 's somewhat , giving some distance there so if a person walks up to
' that railing and looks over , there's either the planter concept . . .
(There was audio trouble with the tape at this point in the discussion. )
' Hoffman: . . .Initial presentation would be made to the City Council . Some
firmer numbers from what were presented at the last meeting to the
Commission will be presented to the City Council for discussion but that by
no means will be the last time which the Park and Recreation Commission
will be able to evaluate and critique this plan either . I foresee it will
jog back and forth both at the Council level and Commission level a number
of times still until this thing is finally worked out in it 's final form
where we can get on with the construction starting sometime in late summer
of 1991 . With that , Mr . Koegler .
' Mark Koegler : Todd covered probably most-of what I needed to go through.
I want to highlight just a couple more changes that have occurred based on
the Commission's comments last time around. Specifically the fireplace is
gone. As you recommended, we have retained the chimney as an architectural
feature and also as a functional feature. In that corner we'll replace the
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• Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 2
old fireplace with kind of a general cooking , counter space , electrical
outlet probably with a small sink area there as well . So if somebody has
some type of a cooktop or crock pot or something , and if there 's any fumes
or smoke or whatever , literally can use a functional chimney . There was
relunctance to get rid of the chimney for a variety of reasons . Primarily
being aesthetics . That when you viewed the structure from the lake , that
was a big impact and we 've even got in the back of our minds doing some
' specialized rock work if budget ever permits with maybe City logo or
something as a part of that and it could be really an attractive feature .
So for now that 's been retained . As Todd eluded to , we 've offered two
11 sketches as to how to possibly alleviate the problem of people lobbing
things over the edge . The planter option was the first one that was put
.together and discussing that one , there was some concern about maintenance .
Plant materials and what that would mean for the public works people . As
' an alternative then , there 's that shed roof concept also which is kind of a
slight mansard that would kind of just come off the railing , if you will
and slope down and break the line of eye sight . That 's really what we 're
after . In the packets you 've got a full sized sheet and then two 8 1/2 x
11 vertical sheets that showed you two different floor plan options for
that lower level . Quick notes on those . The overall amount of floor space
' there remains essentially unchanged . There was kind of a split on the
commission last time with half of the group being in the camp basically
that we just don 't want to give up space unless we absolutely have to . So
as of this point in time , we haven 't given any space up as of yet . What we
have done is reconfigured that in response to some of the commission 's
comments about doorways being down corridors and so forth . The first
scheme maintains the restrooms in the same configuration they were in
previously . The second concept , which is I think probably more workable ,
as far as the females are concerned, is more the Target Center approach.
It has larger additional stall in the women 's area . Both of the restroom
areas , the stool areas have been enlarged to serve as kind of the
mini-dressing rooms that we talked about last time . And notice they do
have doors . Other than that , the food service rental configuration is
essentially the same as I mentioned . We have kept the amount of space
there . What this means in generalized round budget kind of thinking is we
pulled out the fireplace box which was an expensive item . We have put back
in some of the counter space . Some of the electrical . Some of the water
' connections . We 've retained the square footage on the lower level . The
net is we 're right about where we were previously in terms of general king
of budget thinking . In talking to Todd and Don about that , I think the
philosophy was to kind of let 's maintain that right now status and take
that onto the City Council to see what kind of reaction they have . So I 'd
be certainly willing to address any questions that you have on this and I
assume the end result tonight is we 'll be looking for some kind of
' recommendation to go onto the Council tentatively on April 22nd . If
there 's any questions I 'd be glad to address them .
I Robinson: Mark , how high is that upper level from the ground? About 10
feet? 8-10 feet it looks like .
Koegler : From which? Describe a little more to me where you 're at .
Robinson: I guess the top of that planter .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 3
Koegler : Oh , from ground plane? 1
Robinson: Yeah . Probably 10-12 feet maybe .
Koegler : I 'll scale that off . From that railing is going to be about 10
to 12 feet . From the top edge of the planter itself and then the railing
would sit above that or the railing would sit up above the little shed roof II
portion also .
Lash: Mark , I think I 've asked this before . I just want to double check .
It shows the two walkways coming out of the upper level .
Koegler : Yes .
Lash: One is going south right? Up to the top of the hill?
Koegler : Yes . I
Lash: And then the other one is going east?
Koegler : One would be going south . The other would be going east . ,
Essentially the way it 's configured now. They both would go back , kind of
up the hill if you will .
Lash: I guess what I was trying to think , or what I was trying to figure , II
is it possible to have either the bathroom access on the same side as the
walk is coming out or have the walk on the other side? Is the terrain , is II
it too bad?
Koegler : No .
Lash: Like if you wanted to get to the restrooms from the upstairs , it 'd
be easier to take the walk . Just go down the walk and be on the lower
level than to have to go all the way around . I
Koegler : They will , given the grade and the slope in that , there will be
stairs that still aren't shown on here that come down right off of one or
both of those walkways to get down there . That will be the only way to
transcend that slope without going back around . There will be another
handicapped access that will serve this building but it will be going back ,
if you will , around the trees and coming back to the lower level .
Lash: So on the west side where the entrances are , we wouldn't be able to
make . . . '
Koegler : No .
Lash: And you can 't have the bathroom access on the east side? 1
Koegler : We can take a look at switching that .
Lash: I don 't know if the grades of the land would accommodate that but it II
would be more convenient for the people upstairs . But then it would be
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 4
less convenient for the people from the beach .
Koegler : From the beach , yeah . It was positioned this way to provide the
closest access to the beach which we assumed would be the primary users .
Lash: Okay . The other thing , and maybe Larry you could answer this
' better , do you think it would be handy for the maintenance guys to have
another door into the storage area that would be closer like right out into
this bathroom area so if they kept hoses or whatever in there , they could
' just take them out there instead of having them go all the way through the
rental and service area?
Schroers: Which plan are you looking at?
Lash: I guess I 'm looking at B . But both of them are that way . Where the
only access into the storage area is through the rental area .
Schroers : Well , I don 't think you want maintenance guys accessing it
through the women 's bathroom .
' Lash: Well yeah , that 's true. Kids are going to go in there . . . No , I 'm
saying another door . . .just go straight in there with the hose instead of
having to carry it .
Schroers: You know that is a good point . Covenience is important both in
just in operating efficiency . Sometimes the cost involved with rearranging
the floor plan and adding a door wouldn 't justify the few minutes that were
saved by having to go around . I guess that 's something that Mark could
maybe tell us better in terms of numbers . What it might cost to have an
additional access to this storage area .
Hoffman: Jan , I agree that that looks like a good idea . Just bring in
another door straight from the women 's interest into the storage room . I
would anticipate that maintenance people would be doing their maintenance
first thing in the morning prior to the park . Prior to the food service
and the rental area being opened . That type of thing so that 's one issue
which says that the need is still there but to a lesser extent .
Koubsky: One option on that floor plan might be to have that women 's stall
labeled as number 7 as maybe cleaning storage area where it 's listed now .
The storage area has to go through the rental and it has to go through the
food service so they 'd be bringing cleaning material through the food area .
I had asked my wife , she seemed to think that the 3 bathrooms in the other
1 figure were plenty . The three toilets . That 's a thought . Jan likes 4
but .
Lash: I like 5 . I mean the Men have 5 . If you count the two urinals .
Right and then 3 stalls . Who goes more often?
Robinson: Women have 3 sinks.
IILash: They wash their hands . I don 't know . It just seems like little
girls and women and pregnant women and it seems like they 're in line a lot
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 5
longer than the men . You could put in more urinals . That 's what men use
the most , I think . And take out a stall or maybe give one of the stalls to
the women . I just don 't think the women have too many stalls . The Target 11 theory .
Hoffman: That was the reasoning for re-evaluating . Going from Y to Z was
to accommodate that . I
Koubsky: But the storage and food service question is a definite issue
yes?
Schroers: I also don 't like the idea of having to take the cleaning
supplies through the food service and rental area .
Koegler : It would be easy to create a door opening into the women 's
restroom .
Koubsky: Or into the lifeguard area . 1
Koegler : And then access from there . We 'll take a look at that .
Koubsky: The lifeguard might also have supplies that he needs . First Aid -
supplies or buoys or whatever . I 'm not sure what 's going to be out there .
Hoffman: Typically that room is going to , we 'll attempt to keep it fairly I
self-contained with our current status with the Minnetonka Community
Services , that will be their space . They will have equipment in that
location and cleaning of that room will fall back onto somewhat of their
responsibility but the overall maintenance will fall back onto us . I would
not foresee that they would need general access to the storage area and we
may not want that accessibility . I
Schroers: And this just didn 't take a major redesign .
Andrews: I guess to follow up on one of Jan's points . I would push for 1
probably more urinals in the men 's bathroom and probably , I 'm not sure what
types of styles you 're choosing but I would ask that at least one be for
children . So it 'd be lower to the floor . You might be able to knock out
that toilet area #3 and rearrange the sinks a little bit and have maybe 4
urinals . I would think they 'd be easier to clean for one and they 're
probably be used more than the stall . And have at least one set low for
children .
Koegler : Obviously at this point we haven 't speced out anything as to what II
they are but we always include lower mounted that will handle kids . What
is the feeling of how many stalls you want in the men's restroom? Is 2
plus 3 or 4 urinals , is that adequate?
Schroers: I would think that 2 stalls would be enough .
Robinson: Yeah , I would say a couple more urinals at the price of another II
stall .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 6
Schroers: We have a beach area that I have to believe , even after we have
this nice shelter here , is busier than Lake Ann is going to be and there
are two stalls there in the men 's that seem to be pretty adequate . It
handles the numbers fairly well and there are 4 stalls in the ladies . It
seems to accommodate a lot of people .
Robinson: Back to one of Jan 's comments . There is no inside stairway?
Koegler : Correct . The stairway connection will be exterior .
Robinson: I guess that 's alright .
Schroers: How do you feel Mark about accessing the storage area from the
' outside of the building? Just an exterior door?
Koegler : We could do that . It will require a reconfiguration again of
' this lower level because right now that 's into the hill . That side is
buried completely . That wall but it could be reconfigured to do that . Any
time we get another door opening , you get another security concern to the
exterior . So for now we 've kind of limited those . I think certainly it
does need to be added to the restroom . It can be added to the exterior by
reconfiguring the footprint if that 's your desire .
Schroers: Well , I don 't know if it would be worth it to reconfigure the
whole thing just to make an outside access to the storage . But I 'm a
little bit uncomfortable with having to access the ladies room in order to
get at the storage because there are going to be busy periods where you 're
going to run out of supplies and have to add paper towels or toilet paper
or whatever the situation is and someone is going to have to be there to go
in and clean up a mess or a spill or something like that . If you 're
fortunate enough to have both male and female employees , possibly you could
send in the appropriate person in .
' Lash: What if you were to extend the wall from the men 's room and just
make this more of a hall and then have the door here that goes into the
women 's and you could have a door there?
Koegler : We can do that very easily . The last concept , if you remember
last time around , had exactly that and the comment was that we 've got this
corridor that we have to go down and we don 't want a door at the end of the
' corridor . But we can do that . That 's a very functional approach .
Lash: I guess when I talked about having another access door to the
women 's room , I meant another door so that when you didn 't want or couldn 't
go through the rental and food service area, you could access it that way
but that wouldn 't be your number one . But you could take your cleaning
materials out when you 're going to do the restrooms but that would . . .use
that door .
Koegler : Yeah . Putting the door back in that location where it was would
certainly solve that problem and you can cut a doorway right into the
storage room .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 7
Schroers: I like that idea personally . '
Koubsky: I do too . I think a concern with the door which is now the men 's
or proposed , is that people standing in line at the food service and on the
beach could see directly into the women's bathroom more .
Lash: Right , and that was the changing area and there was no door or
anything .
Koubsky: Where this at least it 's out of public 's eye .
Lash: There 's a door there and then there 's also a door to the stall
that 's straight in .
Koubsky: Then if need be , that allows them an area to start their line .
Out of sight .
Andrews: Protected from the elements .
Koubsky : Well that 's right and it would be covered .
Hoffman: If need be there Mark , for the privacy , issue a little wall?
Koegler : Yeah , we can look at that . Sure . ,
Hoffman: Into the men 's , if you 'd opened the door you 'd be facing the
concrete wall . . .
Schroers: Mark , where would the plumbing be accessed for maintenance and
seasonal draining of the system and that sort of thing?
Koegler : I can 't really answer that right now . There 's a chase shown
between the sinks and the urinals , along that wall . There would be one
central point as part of the plans where the system could be drained. But II
I can 't tell you exacly where that is right now because we 'll be moving a
few things now anyway .
Schroers: Okay . I have some personal experience with that in that we have II
had a couple of situations where that hasn 't really been much consideration
and we had to tear walls out to get at plumbing in order to drain it so it
didn 't freeze and break the pipes in the wintertime . So it sure would be
nice if the system was set up to have one drain point and you could hook an
airhose on one end and just blow it out and have it be taken care of . But
my personal experience is that the valves all have to be taken apart and
they have to have anti-freeze put in them and all that sort of thing and
there 's a need for a work space in order to do that .
Hoffman: It 's your opinion Larry that the space , that chase should be wide II
enough for a person to actually access it and there should be an access . . .?
Schroers: To access it and to be able to use a pipe wrench . ,
Hoffman: In that area inbetween.
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April 9 , 1991 - Page 8
Schroers: We have a space . You know Doug Mitchell . Is this on the
record?
Hoffman: Yes .
Schroers: Well , we have a person that is very thin and small and the
access point is about 14 inches wide and trying to get your body in there
and work with a wrench besides , I mean it 's practically impossible . In an
emergency , broken plumbing or something like that , it 'd be a real disaster .
Andrews: I have a question about the food service area . That is , is there
a plan to bring water into that area? It 's not shown there .
' Koegler : Yes . The intent is to have water in that area for clean-up
purposes .
' Andrews: Sinks?
Koegler : Yes .
Andrews: Yes . That 's the intent .
Koegler : The food service that we 've talked about is the packaged kind of
items but you certainly need the ability to clean counters and the spaces
and things and wash a few things here and there .
Andrews: Was the intent to have refrigeration there on a seasonal basis?
Koegler : I would assume so . I mean I would assume you 're going to sell
' popsicles and things like that that will require that .
Hoffman: Those will be additional . Coolers , freezers , we 'll certainly
want to take that into consideration in the design . What particular type
' of product? What particular type of refrigerator or freezer we 're going to
buy for the food we 're going to be serving and then make the space
appropriate to be able to purchase those appliances and have them
installed .
Schroers: Will there be an ice maker?
Hoffman: Again , that 's something yet to be decided . If you choose to , if
you think you 'd like an ice maker .
' Andrews: I just took a wild guess at what the square footage of that food
service area is . Probably around 200 square feet maybe? That 's a
reasonable guess? We don 't have room for everything we 'd like to have
there . I 'm sure of that . You talk about ice maker and refrigerator , sink
and food storage and pop storage and a cash register and room for somebody
to stand , that 's about it . If that .
' Schroers: Ice is a very , very popular thing to have in food service during
the summer . It also is space consuming and it tends to be kind of a high
maintenance item too .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 9
Hoffman: It depends on what your theory is on how you should serve your
pop . Should you be selling it out of a refrigerated can or by the cup with
ice out of a pop dispenser .
Lash: What did you have in mind?
Hoffman: I believe the previous meeting we talked about refrigerated cans . II
Selling canned pop .
Schroers: I favor that idea also .
Lash: I would too .
Andrews: To have an adequate ice making system there would take up most
the space you have . So I agree .
Schroers: Is there going to, are the food items going to be stored in the II
food service area? Or do you plan on using some of the storage , the larger
storage area for that?
Hoffman: The bulk of it would be stored in the food storage area but '
crates or boxes of your packaged items would then be stored in the storage
shelf area within that storage room . As potentially would be canoe
paddles , that type of thing . I
Koegler : Yeah . Storage right now is just identified as kind of a
generalized thing . It is intended to include all of the typical
maintenance products , the bulk items , life preservers or paddles or
whatever you can 't conveniently have right next to a counter . Whatever
else needs to go in there . So right now it 's kind of a catch all .
Schroers: There may be the need for a partition or shelving area or
something like that to separate the food items from the other things . I
don 't know what the health code is as far as all the pre-packaged items but II
I know they get pretty specific when you start to do any cooking .
Koegler : Yeah . As we get a little further into this , we 'll need a little
better definition of what is to be sold . What type of products are
anticipated and then can react accordingly to provide proper storage .
Andrews: I 've got a radical idea here . Just kind of came to me . The
storage area , if you were to somewhat shrink that and use the access door
as your first aid station and move the rental area all the way down to the
edge of the building and then put your storage area inbetween the rental II area and the food service area . That might create a useage flow that might
be a little more practical .
Hoffman: It has potential . Just off the top of my head , one conflict '
there is that in times , weekday type of operation , I would foresee that
there 's going to be one person manning both the food service and the rental
and then the flow for them to be able to move from one to the other is
impeded. It was pretty good until I thought of that .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 10
Lash: When we were talking about this other storage access door , I think
that we still need to keep the one for the rental and food area if they 're
going to be using that .
Koegler : Yeah .
' Lash: Okay . I just wanted to make sure you didn 't think we wanted to take
that out .
Hoffman: And again , I don 't think tonight is too early a time to start
discussion about what items you would like to see served . If it is
packaged food? What is it? Candy bars , potato chips?
Lash: I guess I kind of just thought it would start out real small like
pop and maybe some chips .
' Erhart: Stay away from things we would have to worry about a lot of health
regulations on .
Lash: Spoilage .
Robinson: Would you operate this with city employees or would you contract .
it out?
Hoffman: Again , that 's always brought up in this type of an application .
My intent at this time would be to operate it as a city employee type basis
' but it could be contracted out . I 'm not sure how attractive it 's going to
be for some food service vendor to come in here and contract at this
particular location . We also want to have some control over that
employee 's other duties within that park area . Informing the people who
' are using the reservation upstairs . Serving those people as well as they
use that particular facility and helping out with other things on site .
But it could go either way . It 's done both ways in the public sector .
ILash: We could have some candy but I have visions of chocolate in the
refrigerator .
Andrews: It has to be durable , no refrigeration type stuff I think .
Lash: Yeah , and the other thing , even though I think the popsicle and the
frozen treat ideas is fun , I think you have to worry about power outages .
If you have a power outage over there and the freezer 's out all night and
everything melts . I don 't know . Maybe those are just some things ,
' headaches you want to deal with .
Erhart: Maybe just keep it simple from the beginning and see how it goes .
Lash: See what people request . If they come up and ask that do you have
hot dogs or do you have this? I don 't think we 're ever going to get into
that but just get a feel for what people would like to see there .
Robinson: I 'd prefer to contract it out and let somebody else .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 11
Andrews: The rental potential off of something this small , I don 't think
would be that great .
Schroers: I think if you 're going to get into a contract situation , it
would be someone that would want to get into hot dogs and hamburgers and
that kind of thing and that would get to more of a production than we 're
looking for there I believe . 1
Hoffman: Typically a. person who would contract this would be looking for a
revenue generating potential . Contracting , it goes from one extreme to the '
other . You contract for vending machines or you contract for food service
such as Hyland Hills where you have a vendor in there serving that type of
food .
Andrews: Not this year .
Hoffman: Not this year? That was done by the Park?
Lash: Did you think of maybe just having vending machines or did they . . .
( There was a tape change at this point in the discussion . ) '
Lash: Then you don 't have to hire anybody . •
Andrews: . . .the rental operation also . If you have that in there . I I
think you still need a person there to watch the building , during the
summer especially .
Erhart: I think it could get vandalized real easily .
Lash: Yeah , that 's true . You had one at the hockey rink . And that was
not good .
Hoffman: It had potential problems . I see that person really as a public I
relations person as well . Relating with the public as they enter that .
Using the building. There 's a person there overseeing the bathrooms .
During the middle of the day if we run out of paper towels , it 's not going
to be a full time maintenance person getting called . It 's going to be the
person on staff at this building doing that type of daily maintenance
routine .
Andrews: At Lake Phelan they have a park shelter where it 's chips and it 's II
stable shelf items . They have a microwave that they 'll do a hot dog for
you but they don 't have any big grill or hamburger . If you want a hot dog ,
they take it out of the refrigerator and put it in the microwave and that 's
it . So that 's very well received and it 's a fairly small booth too so it
should be similar in size to this . It 's very satisfactory to somebody
coming in on a hot day to just get a cold pop and a bag of chips . That 's
all you need .
Schroers: That 's what I prefer to see . A couple different selections of
cold treats . Be it popsicles or ice cream sandwich or whatever and a
couple of different varieties of chips . Possibly pretzels or bagged
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 12
popcorn . Something of that variety . What I really would not want to see
is the candies that come individually wrapped in smal pieces . You buy some
of these little candied items that come in a wrapper and then inside the
wrapper each piece is individually wrapped and you end up with these itty
bitty pieces of paper all over everywhere . I think it would be nice to be
able to sell something that has a wrapping on it that is of the size where
somebody will say , well this is too big . I can 't just throw it on the
ground . I need to go put it in the garbage can . Even gum . Gum has two
wrappings on it plus it gets stuck on everything . I definitely wouldn 't
recommend selling gum or little small candies . Just stay with the larger
packaged items .
Lash: Your maintenance background is really showing here .
Schroers : You wouldn 't believe what a hassle it is chasing little bitty
pieces of paper around the park on a windy day .
1 Erhart: That is a good point though Larry .
Koubsky: I like the thought of ice cream or something sold . And I also
' like the thought of somebody there dispensing it . Not a vending machine .
It seems more personal , and we can employ somebody too . That 's nice .
Hoffman: As stated in the request , that came from the Commission in taking
a look at what kind of dollars this can generate . Food service , it could
generate some money depending on how it goes over and how popular it is but
it is a public service . You 'll definitely have to meet costs or we 'll have
to re-evaluate it somehow but then as well , the rental areas is a public
service . It 's not going to make money either but it 's a recreational
service for our residents and park users and then the upstairs , you know
' rental of the upstairs is where we 're going to bring the dollars in for
this particular building .
' Lash: Maybe what we 'll want to do later on is evaluate the hours of
operation . I would think most typical work day , weekday mornings . Things
like that , there isn 't going to be a high demand for any of those things
' such as staff it during .
Hoffman: 11 :00 to 6:00 .
Lash: Well evenings though .
Hoffman: 11 :00 to 8:00?
' Lash: When there 's ball games going on, a lot of times kids will go down
to the beach . I don 't know . But then weekends all day .
' Robinson: I 'd think we 'd at least recover our costs here wouldn 't we?
Hoffman: Yes .
Koubsky: I guess one thing Mark that 's on one of the plans too and not on
the other is you do have a bench on one of them. I think for changing kids
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 13
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or whatever , maybe a couple of small benches . If you can put them in and
have enough space to move around in each of the bathrooms . They 're easy to
put kids shoes on .
Lash: That 's a good idea . ,
Schroers: Well it looks like there is enough space in that handicapped
bathroom .
Koubsky: Put a bench in there .
Koegler : You 're thinking though , it doesn 't even have to be on a stall .
You 're thinking of a space just in the bathroom somewhere that you know is
going to be dry that you can always put the kid up onto? ,
Koubsky: Right .
Schroers: Along the storage wall or somewhere . ,
Hoffman: Or else one of the Kolar Bear changing tables?
Koubsky: I don 't know if you want changing tables but that 's another
thing , it could actually be changing tables .
Hoffman: Yeah , on that bench. '
Lash : So put it in the Men 's .
Koubsky: Put in both .
Hoffman: We did we want to address , concerning phone service? Again , I
thought about this . How many new lines we 're going to be generating and
where they 're going to be positioned? Is the lifeguard going to have a
separate phone line? Is the phone going to be located upstairs?
Downstairs? Those types of things .
Lash: The lifeguards have a phone already by the beach don't they?
Hoffman: Yeah , that phone line . Obviously since it 's out in the open and
unprotected , it has continual problems . The lines are cut annually
including the phone within this enclosed building would be much more
desireable .
Erhart: I think from a safety standpoint they should definitely have their I
own line and it should be something that is in working order .
Andrews: I don 't think you need to do that to be honest . I work in areas
which have much more traffic than this and you don 't need a phone that II often to be honest . I would think that all you need to do , if somebody at
food service is on the phone , they 're obviously going to get off
immediatley if you have an emergency situation . I don 't think you need to I
do that .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 14
' Hoffman: Currently the phone is connected , the phone at the entrance gate
house and then the phone down at the beach is one line . So if somebody
picks up a call at the gate house and they want to call 911 , obviously they
' just have to tell them to hang up and then they hang up . People at
Minnetonka Community Services get very upset quickly if that phone is not
in working condition . They do not feel comfortable working in this
' isolated of a location without an access to 911 .
Andrews : I think we definitely need a service line to the building and
perhaps a pay phone . At lesat one that can be reached and that doesn 't
necessarily have to be on the inside either . Pay phones can be outside .
Lash: I guess what I felt is when you 're going to be having teenagers and
younger people working in here and you have a telephone . There 's a
potential for being on the phone when you 're supposed to be doing .
Erhart : I do too and I was approaching it from a medical background .
Lash: Yeah . No , I agree we have to have a phone but if it was a pay
' phone , you can dial 911 out of a pay phone without putting money into
it . But I think the closer to the beach to have it , I mean I like the
location of where it is now . If there 'd be a way of fixing that because
that 's any time you save getting to a phone is going to be fast .
' Andrews: Do the lifeguards have radios?
Hoffman: No . They do get a radio when the phone isn 't working . The
Carver County Deputies radio so they can then radio the deputies directly .
Schroers: I guess my suggestion on the telephones would be to have one
' phone inside the building basically for emergencies and employee and staff
use and pay phone outside of the building for the general public . The
phone inside the building I would locate not in the food or rental area
' where a young person is going to be all the time because you 're exactly
right . That 's when they're not busy , they 're on the phone .
' Erhart: It makes it too easy for them .
Schroers: So maybe putting the indoor phone in the entry area towards the
storage or someplace where it 's just not convenience for employees to be
11 sitting , talking on the phone while they 're supposed to be doing their job .
Hoffman: Does it make sense at all so both the rental , food service and
lifeguard , first aid people can reach the phone to put in a window
inbetween that counter and the lifeguard station . First aid station and
then the phone could then be in that space so you could access it from both
sides and as well you could talk to a person in that other portion of the
building .
Schroers: Sounds like a workable .
Hoffman: Have a counter top deal where they can pass messages back and
forth . If a person makes a comment which needs to get to the first aid
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 15
person , they can jot that down and kind of have a desk operation inbetween I
the two .
Schroers: That 's a good idea . ,
Lash: But then we have the phone where. . .
Schroers: Then the phone 's accessible to the lifeguards who are on break 1
or to food service employees who aren 't too busy .
Hoffman: Yeah , and it would police itself to a certain extent because a
rental , food service employee is not going to feel that they have the
exclusive use of that phone . If lifeguards are walking in and out and they
constantly see this person on the phone , it 's going to bug them as well .
They 'll let somebody know.
Schroers: And I would think from staff 's point of view , who 's ever
training and hiring these people would over emphasize the point that
they 're not being paid to be spending time on the telephone . And to make a
point to check in once in a while and if that is the situation , to
reinforce it .
Hoffman: It 's necessary to do that already at the gate attendant . You
call , whether you have a reason or not and it 's busy for 10 minutes , a
drive to the park is well in order . Are there any other issues that you
can foresee?
Andrews: I have one more question . On the upper level , is that intended 1
to be , with outlets on the perimeter , for various uses?
Koegler : Electrical outlets? '
Andrews: Yeah .
Koegler : We had talked in generalities that you certainly wanted outlets I
in the area where there was going to be some food storage . Not really
storage but preparation , presentation , whatever . We had talked about the
possibility of some outlets and then there were concerns raised about
maintenance of those and locking of those and what 's your feel? Do you
need outlets on the walls if there 's outlets in the fireplace , the former
fireplace area? What would you plug into those? '
Lash: How big is that area there? That corner? It looks like it 's just
two little counters where you can plug things in . ,
Koegler : . . .9 to 10 feet .
Andrews: Is there intended to be lighting up there or natural lighting ,
only?
Koegler : I would assume there would have to be some kind of lighting in
addition to that .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 16
Andrews: I guess what I 'm driving at here is , I 've had this reoccuring
goal or idea that some sort of a boating program or sailing program might
become something that the City may want to do like what 's done at Lake
Phelan in St . Paul is a very successful program . I guess I was thinking ,
would there be something in the future where you might want to , in one of
the corners of the building here , have the ability maybe with some
' temporary folding walls and some lighting and some outlets to hold a class ,
like an evening sailing class in the upstairs and go down and use the lake?
We have the outlets and we have the lighting and we have temporary walls
can be added later when the budget allows . That's all you really need .
You typically only spend maybe 15 or 20 minutes at most in your classroom
and then you want to go down and use the water . So you don 't need a first
rate expensive classroom to do that and if it 's raining , typically you
cancel class anyway .
Koegler : What do you plug in? Projectors or something?
1 Andrews: Projectors is it . You usually have movies or tapes . Training
tapes of how to do first aid or sailing or boating .
ILash : Couldn 't you plug them in over in this corner?
Andrews-: I was just thinking if you wanted to be in a corner •where you
' could share that building space with other people that are using it at the
same time .
Hoffman: It 's a valid idea .
Andrews: It 's not a big deal . Just put a couple of all weather outlets in
there .
Hoffman: Staff discussion as well , Don in particular asked the question .
What other types of uses are going to take place up here? Is there going
to be classes held at any time? Organized activities a little more formal
than just a neighborhood or family picnic? If that is indeed the case ,
then how are we going to accommodate those types of people?
Andrews: The other question I had is , on the upper level with the
entrances , are those entrances that are going to be secured in the winter
or is this an open area , open to weather?
Koegler : It is , in all probability , an open area . It 's got a fair over
hang on it but that raises another issue . The one of security in general
and I don 't know that that 's been totally resolved. In conversations with
Todd and Don , I think leaning towards don 't react to a problem until it
becomes a problem. If it becomes necessary to close those off , we 've
looked at kind of an iron grate type of doorway that could either swing or
could slide along one of those parallel walls and close that opening off .
It would have to lock open and lock close . We had looked at creating those
as kind of a pocket door in the middle of that wall . The problem is then
' when the door is closed , you 've got a pocket that people throw all kinds of
junk into . Cans and bottles and things and it 's very difficult to clean
out so we 're recommend going with either one the mounts on the interior of
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 -- Page 17
the wall and slides or is on a hinge and swings . That 's the only type of
door closure that 's been talked about so far for those openings . There 's
not been like an overhead garage door or something that would secure those II weather tight . There is really not anything in this upper level that could
be damaaged by a little bit of snow or something blowing in . It 's all
concrete flooring and masonry .
Schroers: In the off season when it 's cold , this type of an area isn 't
much of an attractant because there 's not real way to stay warm there so
even if kids are out horsing around , they don 't tend to hand around long II enough to do much damage . We have open shelters that aren 't protected that
have cabinets and things and the only problem that I encountered in an
entire year was I found two kids running around up on the roof . They
stacked up a couple of picnic tables and managed to run around on the roof II
but they didn 't damage anything else .
Lash: That reminds me of one question I had on your little shed roof thing II
now . It would be impossible for someone to climb up onto that wouldn 't it?
Koegler : It will be designed to discourage . I would never say the
impossible but it certainly would have a slope on it that would be
something you 'd look and say , ooh . I don 't really want to do that because
it 's too steep .
Lash: I would say that . But would kids look at it the same way too? 11
Koegler : Well we talked about that and think it will be a deterrent to
anybody doing that but you never know.
Schroers: Real short and sweet on that , I definitely prefer the shed roof
design over the planters .
•
Koubsky: I do too but a concern I have with the shed roof is that 's going
to be a very convenient place to put beverage bottles or cans and it might
be real easy to knock those off and then you 've got a slide and basically
things are going over anyway . I don 't know if the catch or some sort of a
guard in case something accidentally goes over , it doesn 't end up on
somebody down below .
Lash: Maybe we could use electrical fence across there and barbwire .
Hoffman: Simple design , just make that railing so it is at a point so it
can 't accommodate .
Koegler : Yeah , that 's what I was going to point out . The section that 's ,
on there is really not totally accurate because there is a railing that
sits on top of that cap piece so it 's not a ledge there like this where II somebody would want to set a can because there will be a railing structure
there that won 't let you do that .
Schroers: Another thing I see about the upper level is that we are going
to accommodate groups of up to 50 but that doesn't necessarily mean they
all have to be all in one group . What if there are two groups of 10 but
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11 Park and Rec -Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 18
they 're separate groups and they both want to do a little cooking or
picnicing? I think it would be nice to have that split up into two places .
Koegler : It 's all a function of dollars .
Schroers : Maybe not as elaborate . I mean a fireplace thing , that looks
' like a nice arrangement but I think that it would be nice to have in one
other location up there at least some outlets so we could accommodate two
smaller , separate groups at the same time .
Hoffman: The concept that Jan discussed at the last meeting with a
portable fold up shelf and then an outlet in each one of these opposite two
corners? Something of that nature?
Schroers: Yeah . Something like that that could accommodate .
Lash: There again , if those aren 't expensive . I just don 't think you can
ever have too many of those things . People are always going to use them .
Schroers : And also it should be looked at or noted that things that people
generally bring along to picnic , such as roasters and that sort of thing ,
tend to have a high current draw so we have to look at service breakers
that are maybe 30 amp instead of 20 amp to keep from blowing the circuits .
' Koubsky: Mark in that chimney area , was that power and water access for
those on each side?
' Koegler : No . The note there is indicating that they would be distributed
power would be presumably on each side . Water presumably would be on one
side at one location for some economy and the rest would be essentially
counters . Those are some of the details that ultimately we 'll be bringing
back to you . How do you want this to look? How do you want this to work?
We 're trying to get all the major pieces in now just from a cost
standpoint .
Koubsky: I also do like the , whatever that option 's called .
Lash: The shed roof?
Koubsky: Yeah , the shed roof .
Lash: I did too . Now you have the roll-up door thing and that would be
secured?
Koegler : Right . That whole area would be secured .
Lash: Would that just be something that would be optional? A person would
' rent this , they could then get the key for that or would it automatically
open?
' Hoffman: I would think it would be keyed and then we 'd go with the rental
and then we 'd provide the key to that door .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 19
Schroers: Basically the way this is you 've got this laid out , is that all II
the cooking is going to be done under the roofline .
Koegler : We really haven 't addressed , you know there was a lot of ,
discussion last time about grills and pulling them around on trucks or
mounting them in a location outside or whatever . This really only
addresses prepared food items that people bring in in roasters and crock II pots and those kinds of things . Those are what these counters accommodate .
I think it still needs to be determined what and how and where the
bar-be-queing type activities would occur in relation to this building .
Schroers: Okay . I guess my personal preference on that would be a poured
concrete area doesn't have to be much larger than to accommodate a grill
and a little cooking space outside of the roof line . My experience has
been that everyone that comes out to picnic is not necessarily an expert on
grilling and sometimes it looks like you 've got a major fire going . They
get really smokey and if it 's outside the roofline , at least the smoke can II
escape and it won 't be trapped in there . And some of those fires get
greasy and a smoke residue has grease in it and eventually that would tend
to build up on the inner roof . ,
Koubsky: With that too Larry , we might want to think about one by each
exit or entrance just to facilitate two different groups .
Schroers: Yeah . I think that would be plenty . If there were two slab
areas outside of the roof line . One on each side of the building or one on
each side of the entrance . Whatever would fit most practically into the
plan .
Koegler : I should indicate that the next time you see this , you 'll have
more site information than you have right now . Right now we 're just
dealing with concepts to the building and there will be site information so
we can definitively address these questions of stairways and grade and
where the best place is to locate these pads and those kind of things . i
Schroers: Okay . But are you seeking this kind of information?
Koegler : Yes . As Todd said , we 've been keeping a talley of all of the
little items . The water spigots . The outlets and things that will come
back into discussion later so any little thing that is a concern is
certainly valid to bring to our attention at this time because we will note I
them and bring them back into the subsequent plans .
Lash: Would it seem like a logical thing to have the water spigots by the
concrete slabs where the grills are?
Schroers: Yeah .
Lash: For fire control and clean up .
Schroers: I don 't want to speak for everyone here . If anyone thinks that II
it 's not a good idea , if they would rather see things kept underneath the
roof or whatever just speak up .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 -- Page 20
Lash: No . No . I think to encourage people to cook outside of this is the
route to go . It just eliminates the maintenance as far as trying to keep .
Schroers: And besides that , it frees up the inside . Gives you a larger
area to show slides or what have you .
' Erhart: Mark , we haven 't reduced the cost at all have we?
Koegler : In these kinds of efforts , it 's never easy to reduce the costs .
' We still feel comfortable that we 're at the position we were at a few weeks
ago with Option 2 . Ultimately what it gets down to is what funding
resources are available , and I think the City Manager last time addressed
you and told you that there were various sources of money to be pulled
together . If there are cuts that have to be made , obviously this group
will be involved in that decision . Do we shrink some space . Do we remove
this? Do we remove that? That kind of remains to be seen .
Hoffman: I do feel that it is important at this time that the Commission ,
you have some understanding from Don 's discussion . In our Capital
Improvement Budget we budgeted $110 ,000 .00 for this project for CIP share .
' Obviously we are up and above that and the Mayor and the City Council are
aware of that to a certain degree . That we talked about this particular
goal item at last Saturday 's goal session . I addressed basically the same
' type of , some of the discussion we had here this evening . What we need to
expand upon is , is this building a firm desire of both the Park and
Recreation Commission and the City Council . If it is , the funding is
available . The Park Acquisition and Development fund reserve has .
accumulated over the years . We have not taken on a project of this
magnitude or type since the Lake Susan Park shelter so it 's somewhere in
the ballpark of $300 ,000 .00 are sitting in the bank which , when I started
the budget process last year , I was not in the best position to do that , or
certainly accommodate it , but $110 ,000 .00 was the figure which was in there
year after year so we just plugged it in . In future budgeting times , we 'll
go ahead and have a better feel of what we 're getting into prior to going
into that . If we had it to do all over again, we could have had
$210 ,000 .00 in our CIP for this budget or $190 ,000 .00 or $200 ,000 .00 . We
' do not but the funding is available but I think it needs to be a clear
message from the Commission . If you want to spend this kind of money on
this building , that absolutely has to be spoken and sent up to the City
Council level because they 're going to take a look at it . It is not
' general tax dollars . It is park acquisition and development fees . It was
put there by park fee acquisition and it 's there for the improvement and
development of recreational facilities within our city . Do we want to
11 spend the money on this particular one?
Erhart: The only thing I 'd say is if we are going to do it , that I 'd like
to see it done nicely . I would be willing to otherwise wait but if the
money is available , we can get funding for it , let 's do a first rate .
Robinson: I think it 's just another very legitimate upgrade of Lake
' Ann Park . We 've added the fields a couple of years ago . That 's always been
a real nice park and I think we 've just got to keep upgrading it , which
we 've done .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 21
Erhart: I don 't want to cut any corners or do it cheaply . '
Lash: It does have the potential of being a revenue earner .
Hoffman: Correct . A revenue generator . And there are many other benefits
which , this is the granddad of the projects. It 's bringing in the water .
It 's bringing in the electricity . It 's bringing in the phone . Other
improvement projects to Lake Ann Park will garner from this particular
project . At some time it 's identified that irrigating the fields is
desireable , the water is right there . When it is desireable to put II bathrooms up at the softball field complex , the water is right there . The
electricity is right there. So this project is paying for many
improvements , portions of other improvements that will take place in Lake
Ann Park in the future as well . I
Andrews: Tell me about the building again? Just to get back to that . The
door entrance from the rental area to the storage area I think should be
wide as possible and something of very heavy steel and I guess the reason
for that would be if we have to move refrigerators or other vending
equipment into that storage area for the winter , to make it really secure .
I guess I would feel like the service windows would be an area that vandals
could get through in the winter to steal equipment . If we were able to
move it into the interior secure area with no outdoor windows with a strong
steel door , we 've got an area where we can store things safely over the
winter .
Koegler : The form of those window openings is yet to be determined also .
One of the things we 've envisioned is literally the steel pull down over
head type of door closure on those too which would be relatively secure .
Andrews : Those invite some pretty enthusiastic people sometimes to try to II
get through those .
Koegler : With a pry bar or something .
Andrews: Pry bars or sledge hammers . This is going to be a pretty remote
building in the winter .
Koegler : It is going to be one of those things that if somebody wants in
bad enough , they 're going to get in because once they get into the inside ,
then they 're got cover to do whatever . We can look at that though . '
Andrews: The other thing I wanted to get back to was , I do agree this will
become a certerpiece to the park and I also agree that if we 're going to do II
this , let 's do it right or let 's not do it .
Schroers: I feel that this is in line with current trends . That 's taking
place in the industry. We tend to keep upgrading the services and really
catering to the wants of the user groups which I guess once the standards
have been set , you don 't want to come into your main park with something
substandard . My personal preference would be a slab with a roof over it . I
That 's it . No water . No electricity . Keep the noise and racket down to a
minimum . Don 't turn it into a Valley Fair or Disneyland . Just let it be
d
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 22
kind of more natural and open but this is definitely in line with what 's
happening in the industry and I have no reason to believe that we would see
anything from Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings that wouldn't be up to standards .
' From past experience so I guess I 'm not worried about that . I 'm concerned
that we come up with a very convenient , workable floor plan so we have a
good flow that can be efficiently operated and that we 've been given it
careful consideration as not to forget anything important and to make the
best use of this space that we can so as to get the most for our dollar .
Things are looking pretty good and I think it will get more fine tuned as
' additional concepts come to us .
Koegler : We are , obviously trying to balance aesthetics with budget with
material quality and other things . I can certainly assure you that within
budget parameters , we will strive to give you the most aesthetically
functional building we can because I certainly share your vision of what
Lake Ann Park has been for the last 15 years and where it 's going in the
future . I think a really high quality structure out there certainly fits
with the rest of the park and the improvements you 've put in . So I can
certainly assure you that that 's our intent .
I Andrews: I 've got one more thing . Just thought of it . Drinking -
fountains .
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' Koegler : Yeah , we talked about those last time around . That 's another
thing that 's on our laundry list . We had talked about having one on the
upstairs level and one on the downstairs level .
' Andrews: That 's good . Good enough for me . It 's on the list .
Schroers: Does anyone else have anything to add in regards to tonight 's
' mission?
Koubsky: The only other small thing was on the sink . Like the urinal , I
' think you need things for kids . I think we also need a sink for kids too
and if that means putting 3 in the men 's , then I guess I 'd be for it and
you could add a drinking fountain onto the sink . There will be a lot of
little people .
Schroers: Does staff anything they want to add?
Hoffman: Not at this time , no . Just again to review . This will then go
to City Council on April 22nd , the next City Council meeting . Park and
Recreation Commission meeting is the following night so I will just include
in your packet the report that went to Council that night so you are kept
up to date on action on this particular item .
Schroers: Okay . Well I guess if there 's nothing further , we can thank
Mark for coming in again this evening and we can call for a motion to
adjourn .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9 , 1991 - Page 23
Robinson moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:58 p .m. .
Submitted by Todd Hoffman '
Park and Recreation Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim 1
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