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1 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 9, 1997 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Ron Roeser, Jim Manders, Jane Meger, Rod Franks and Mike Howe MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffinan, Park & Rcc Director; Jerry Rucgemer and Patty Dexter, Recreation Supervisors VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: A motion was made and seconded to approve tile Minutes of thc Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated November 25, 1997. All voted in favor and tile motion carried. CONSIDER REQUEST TO RE-ESTABLISII THE MINNEWASHTA ItEIGHTS PARK SKATING RINK. Jerry Rucgemer presented the staff rcport on this item. Lash: Okay. We have, is that what you're here for? Audicncc: Yes. Lash: Okay. Would you like to come forward? Cindy Hanson: I've been talking to several people in the neighborhood. We intend to monitor the situation also by putting a log at tile park asking people to sign in when they come and skate so wc can keep an eye on it and we're going to log things like ice conditions and temperature also so il' it's unreasonably cold, obviously people aren't going to be skating and wc want that to be part of the consideration. I~ash: And arc you Cindy? Cindy Hanson: Yes I am. Lash: Okay. Can you just state your name? Cindy Hanson: Cindy Hanson. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Rnegemer: And Jan, we can work with Cindy on that and develop a log type of system too and a place to put that out... Cindy Hanson: That'd be great. We thought about some type of log that we can put in, just leave in a Ziploc bag to keep it dry that people can take out, sign in and I realize that some of the kids will probably need a little more prompting to get them to do that but if it's done for a while, and makes a difference, then we know when it's being, the peak hours are being used. Hoffinan: Sue, who's? Cindy Hanson: Sue Leitner. Hoffman: She called and asked what I Felt the base level of use would be. In response in her voice mail... 10 people per hour each day would be kind of consider a base to justify about $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 per year to put in one rink. And so what I could not having any, you know we don't have any quantities or any loggings in the past so what we could say is that it was by far the least rink out of all of our other rinks... Most times on a daily basis they flood all of thc rinks in sequence...I think when we move into our next item, we'll be able to see that, if you would develop a service area, a halfa mile or larger, smaller, that this would be a rink that you would xvant to include in that service area program to meet thc needs for that particular area. It's not like it's... Lash: Okay, thanks. Cindy t-lanson: Thank you. Lash: Jim, do you have any comments? Manders: I guess Todd has kind of answered two of the questions. Even monitoring other rinks and usage, il'that would be appropriate in making this decision next year. Lash: Okay, Ron. Fred. Berg: No, I agree. Lash: I do too. Frank. Rod. Sorry. Does that happen a lot.'? Franks: That happens quite often. Quite often. Did the maintenance crews that flood the rink, Todd maybe you can answer this for me. Do they keep any kind of, do they log anything when they flood the rinks, i.e. the conditions or what they consider to be the use? They currently don't do anything. I certainly don't want to ask them to do more than what they're doing. Hoffinan: We can do that. They log their overtime hours. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Lash: But we don't want to start adding anymore overtilne hours. Rocser: I think they've been judging by the amount of cuts in the ice. Hoffinan: Cuts that are in the ice, yeah. Absolutely. Franks: I just don't want to run into the same situation we had when they rnade the presentation where we xvcre on our information that the maintenance crews were saying that it wasn't being used and the neighbors were saying that yes it was being used and it's like how do we deal with that kind of discrepancy. The log idea that you brought up is a good idea but there again we're relying on tile children to fill in when we're there and that's if there's a pencil available and all this kind of stuff. Hoffinan: Ycah, and how do you log scratch marks? Lash: Well I can read that so.just bring il in. Hoffman: Well on the ice though. Lash: Oh, I thought when you meant when tile kids wrote. Hoffman: No, how do you log the number of scratch marks in the ice. Franks: Well the interest is certainly here right now, I mean with this petition so. Hoffinan: I guess we can come up with no use, minimal use, low use, moderate use, heavy use, because they flood that thing the entire season and then you can see based on the neighborhood log and tile maintenance log, how things look. To be quite honest, yotl're putting...going to be short. If anything, it's not going to be long. It's not going to be long on your log. Cindy Hanson made a statement from the audience. Lash: How could the light on the post get flipped over to the side'? Or Call the post gel mi-ned or not? Cindy Hanson... Rocscr: I think we might be pushing our luck...change the light. Lash: Jane. Mcger: The only thing I had is I promised my son I'd ask when we start flooding. Park 8,: Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Hoffinan: There's a lot of people that ask that. Continuous. We're in the 30's and 40's. We are flooding for, dropping ~vater and saturate the soil so when it get hard and cold weather, that the soil be ready to accept the additional on top of it. We have been flooding the rinks. Lash: Mike. Howe: I'm fine with it. I think, ['mjumping ahead here but this chart, the colored chart. It looks to me like we kind of do need more rinks in the northwest territories up there so 1 thought that would fit and we need to monitor it and revisit it again next year but I'm fine with it. Lash: Okay. Is there someone interested in making a motion on this? Roeser: VII move that we take stafF's recommendation. Do you want me to read the whole thing? [,ash: Sure. Roeser: It is staff's recommendation that the Park and Recreation Comlnission approve the pleasure rink at Minnewashta Heights Park for the 1997/98 season. It is also recommended that if the rink does not see a lot of activity in 1997/98 skating season, that the Park and Recreation Commission review whether or not to provide a rink in the future. Megcr: Second. Roeser moved, Meger seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the pleasure rink at Minnewashta Heights Park for the 1997/98 season. It is also recommended that if the rink does not see a lot of activity in 1997/98 skating season, that the Park and Recreation Commission review whether or not to provide a rink in the future. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Hoffman: You should know, at least from the staff's perspective, we feel strongly that not only having, when you have an open skating rink and combine the light, like you have with a warming housc...where we want to go. As long as you're making that $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 investment... DEVELOP SKATING/HOCKEY RINK SERVICE AREA POLICY. Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Could you go over quickly which ones currently have wanning houses and which ones currently have hockey rinks'? Ruegemer: Sure. Currently we do have three warming houses in Chanhassen...up in this area. Site #3, North Lotus. 4 Park & Rec Colmnission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Hoffman: Temporary. It's a portable trailer. Rucgemer: We also then have Site #6, City Center Park. Directly to the north of City Hall. That is a permanent structure. Then also Site #2 out at the Chanhasscn Recreation Center... Those two sites, the Chanhassen Recreation Center and City Center Park have two hockey rinks and pleasure skating rinks... Lash: So none of the others have hockey? Ruegemer: No. Hoffman: Site #1, Roundhouse Park will have a wanning house. The round house. Or at least the potential. We also have programs as part of the master plan at... It hasn't been programmed. Lash: Are we putting a skating rink out there this season? Hoffman: A pleasure rink, yeah. Lash: Are we planning on the warming house leo or not? No'? Berg: What does it cost us to have somebody at the warming house for a season? Rucgelncr: Overall, I don't know what the breakdown is but overall per rink, overall it's about, roughly about S6,000.00 for all three sites that we've been staffing. Lash: They're all staff comparably aren't they? So roughly S2,000.00 to staff: And then what's the rent on those portable ones? Ruegcmcr: Thc rent on thc portable, roughly about 51,200.00 to SI,500.00 per season. When it's set tip... Howe: ...you say, I have a question perhaps. What does a staffdo at the wanning house? Just prevent vandalism or is it just more of. RttegClnCr: Jus! to have a presence there. Have basically help out with any type of situation. Help you know ice skate. Turn on lights. Make sure thc heat is properly working. Just kind of keep things in an orderly fashion. Monitor the use. They log daily reports. Howe: Make sure pcople...for example. Lash: Right. Enforcing rules. Exactly. Any other questions for staff? Franks: Just one maybe. Which of the parks are amenable to having skating facilities? I'm guessing that probably not all of them can support rinks. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Rucgerner: For parking and that type? Franks: Parking and ability to get the trucks to where we could put in a rink. Are there some that are just not going to be able to support a rink? Hoffinan: ...all of them would support construction of...Pheasant Hills there's a better site for a skating rink than Curry Farms... Lash: Bandimere probably .... Did you get Meadow Green? Well Bandimere is just a matter of probably time. And Sunset Ridge we already said once, you know that that's not really accessible right now. Once that road goes through we'd consider that. I was kind of looking at Carver Beach as being a big overlap area. Would there be a problem if we eliminated that one do you think? Hoffinan: Yeah I think you probably... Lash: They could go to North Lotus or Meadow Green. Or City Center. Manders: That's pretty tough to get to, that Carver Beach area... Lash: Yeah, but Meadow Green wouldn't be bad. Go right down ChapmTal Lane or whatever that is there. Berg: Whatever that is. Lash: Well is that what it is? Berg: That's the main artery of the city, Chaparral Lane. Lash: I was kind of leaning towards Curry Farms just because it seems like that site never gets anything because of the soils there. Roeser: That would not bca bad place for a rink, would it. Lash: Is that accessible or, yeah. Rucgcmer: It might be difficult getting up and down the hill, unless you put that, there's really no other... Lash: Plus it's a little more easily accessible than Pheasant Hills too. Berg: Arc wc talking potentially this year for this? Lash: No. No. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Berg: I'd really like to develop a system wlnere we can gauge how tlnese tlfings are being used because we're hearing that we might be getting stuffback in terms like ice skating rinks and I'd like to see...organized as to how they're being used and tlnen make some decisions based on that. I think we... Hoffman: We'll lmve good data. I'll create a log witln Dale Gregory, the Park Superintendent. That will go right into the flood trucks. We've got two oftlnem and they'll log it and we'll come up with that... Yeah, you were doing the math and as you added tip $1,500.00, $2,000.00 and three 55,000.00 in labor, and you're tip to $6,000.00 or $7,000.00 per site, and then as a growing community we're going to have 10 or a dozen sites, so you're up over $100,000.00 for a winter skating program. So tlnat's a significant program that will be, of your budget, you're talking, this is not a small piece of tine pie. That's about a quarter of the... Berg: I'm in favor, I'm inclined to vote in favor of as many skating rinks as we cain get simply because we've alxvays been proponents of let tine kids go ()tit and do something unorganized. Have tim and play and that's what this stuff...so philosophically I'm strongly in favor of 100 of thom. }toflqnan: And then there's the staffing issue. As we talked about, do you have to stafftlncsc or don't you have to staff these? As they bent my ears out west in the small toxvn of Victoria, we had no, it xvas on the honor system for turn lights on. Lights off: Turn tine heat on. Heat off. Open the door and close tine door...so there's good and bad to tlmt. Roeser: If you lmve warming lnouses, you ahnost have to. Hoffinan: ...warming tnouses with no supervision. Rocscr: In Victoria... tioffinan: I don't know, I was there last winter. Still going on. Lash: Thc circles that you lmve drawn, Jerry, is that a half mile service area or one mile? Ruegcmcr: Those are half miles. Lash: }talf miles. Franks: Was there any consideration made about looking at tlnis in terms of population density instead of just pure distance? Are each of those circles then containing pretty equal amount of population? No? Hoffman: No. Very second bullet point, should the criteria £or developing or maintaining the population. At what point? If you take a look at sites, well vce've heard about...putting in circles. Out at Galpin Boulevard Park. This is parkland here. Potential site...number of households...you probably have to include some households out in this area... Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Lash: I think when we have obvious barriers such as Highway 5 or Highway 7, and we have overlapping service areas, that would not bother me as much. So I would include households in that particular case that are north of TH 5 because otherwise they have to cross. And the same with Cathcart and Minnewashta Heights. Barriers like Lotus Lake. Things like that make it difficult. A comment was made at this point that was not picked up on tape. Lash: I don't think we take it into account because if they're not in that neighborhood. Berg: People can't use them up in thc...neighborhood. Audience... Hoffman: Play areas and basketball. They're two separate parks. One has play areas and tennis. The other has play area and basketball. And in Springfield, at least as far as I know, Springfield which is down south, north of Bandimere, they have a private park there with play areas, tennis or basketball and... Lash: Where is that? Berg: Where is that private park? Hoffinan: Springfield, just north of Bandimere. Franks: Right in the corner of Lyman Boulevard and Lake Riley. Lash: Where were we'? Hoffinan: We were here. Bandimere sits right here. It's this property. Lash: Is this the one with zero lot lines? Hoffman: No. Lash: No? Okay. }toffinan: It's a large development. It was here, I would venture to guess almost two years ago... Lash: And we approved another private park in there? Roeser: That was that high density area, right? Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Lash: No. That's what I was thinking Ron. Hoffman: Yeah, you looked at the plan. 1'11 bring it back to you for FYI... Lash: Okay. Just because we all look confused? Yeah, was that about the same time that we did thc Lundgren Bros. ti-ting? No? Hoffinan: Same developer. Yeah, 3 or 4 years later. Different applicant. Lash: I really thought after we did that we said we'd never do that again. Berg: Is that when you brought... Hoftinan: No sir. Maybe they did. Lash: I really can't remember that. Okay. All right. What would we like to do with this? Do we war~t to try and establish a policy or do we want to wait until we have tile info so we are basing it on something? Manders: I don't think we're itl a position to establish anything. I would ask, I guess this is going to be more ora philosophical kind of question relative to winter sports and any kind of other sports. I mcan we've got limited dollars and...talking S100,00().00 for what? December, partly January, February starts melting. You know it's not a very wide windoxv that we're talking about and I think we need to consider those dollars relative to some of our other longer seasons or higher demand. Maybe this is the highest demand. Soccer you hear that being pushed. We need to view this in a bigger picture. Hoffman: We'll refine those costs for you. It's dangerous xvhen you start taking a look at $3,000.00 to 55,000.00 itl labor per rink. The more you build, the lower that cost pet' rink goes doxvn so we'll take a look at those. Analyze the capabilities of our two water trucks as well. How many, how long docs it take to make a round? Do you have to add another vehicle and... Lash: Well I appreciated Fred's comments as far as this being an unorgarfized activity for children, and it is again developmentally appropriate for young childrer~ to be doing that type of an activity. However, it is difficult to do without a warming house and little kids can't stand to be out that long. And that's a key piece we need to look at. We can put a lot of money into rinks but if it's too cold for them to skate, it ends up being kind of a waste so there's, I would not necessarily be in favor of putting ill a lot of rinks if we weren't committed to the money to at least put some wannir~g houses in too. Whether they be permanent, you know maybe in the end permanent. You know that's a multi-use building that can be a picnic shelter type thing. Warming house, combination would in the long run be the most responsible way to go. I don't know. We'd have to look at some information. There was some discussion between commissioners that wasn't picked up on tape. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Hoffman: It followed the, emulated the capital at St. Paul model where they have a park for every neighborhood and a park building at each... Lash: They did little daycare things in there, didn't they? You know in the summer it's your summer programs... Okay. So is there a motion that we table this until a particular time in the future, such as a month? Manders: Yes... Lash: Okay, do you want to pick a particular time? Manders: I think staffcan decide on an appropriate time when they. Lash: Okay. Is there a second to that? Ho~ve: Second. Manders moved, Howe seconded to table action on policy development for skating/hockey rink service area. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PROGRAM REPORTS: A. CHANHASSEN RECREATION CENTER MONTltLY REPORT. Mike: I'm Mike actually and Nathan did thc report but when Nathan was here I did thc report so I just want to clear that up. Secondly, I want to add, pardon nay cold ifI have to clear my throat or cough during my presentation here. I'm going to move down the list here to the present programs, partially because most of them are soon to be past programs. Floor hockey, pre-school basketball and actually our first session ofdancc are all ending and they're all going quite well. I'll jump right into the upcoming programs. Actually before I do that I'm going to say, I'm sure Jcn'y will say somcthing about this also. The Breakfast with Santa xvent very well. We had a big turnout and everybody seemed to have a great time. Upcoming program would be Daddy Daughter Date Night, which is in February. We actually have two nights for it. They're filling quite fast, which is nice to see. We're currently taking registration for Space Camp. We're offering that again in April. It's been a very popular program at the Rec Center. A new program that has, that goes kind of with the Space Camp is Pioneer Camp. It's run by the same company. They'll do pioneer crafts and eat pioneer tbod and should be a pretty interesting program so we're adding that one. We also have a babysitting clinic coming up. Sports Spectacular in January. And the 3 on 3 adult basketball league which is filling up. It starts in the first of January. Self defense. Howe: You probably could combine those two. Mike: Which one's that? Self defense and basketball. 10 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Commission... Mike: Yeah, actually last year they had a 3 on 3 league as kind of an experimental thing. Jason at the Rec Center started it and he had 8 teams and he had a tournament at the end and he had trophies and it actually went really well. I think he's going to have a maximum of 12 teams this year. That's filling up fast. Memory books. Photo organization are both classes that start in February and Photo Album Workshop is also itl February. Our dance program, I'm going to jump ahead to the dance program. Last year we ended with 96 students compared to ending of this fall we have 144 students. So we have a 48% increase in our dance program. As a result of the increase, ;ve added three new classes and we have a new dance instructor, Caroline Anderson xvho is also teaching a couple classes. Tae Kwon Do, another ongoing program that we have. We've added all after school class for some of the, to kind offset some of the growth of the evening classes and we've seen some good nun~bcrs in those classes also. Two new staff nlcmbers. First of all at the Rec Center we have Tom Knowles. He's our new facility supervisor. He previously xvorked for Northwest Athletic Club in the gym scheduling and facility usage area. And also Caroline Anderson is our new dance instructor as I previously said. That's all I had tbr you. Howe: A question. What's Sports Spectacular? Mike: Sports Spectacular is like a combination pt-ogram that has one week they'll play whiffle ball. The next week they'll do volleyball. Tile next xvcck they'll do kick ball. Howe: Kids'? Mike: Yeah. Lash: It goes lbr tile whole month of January? Mike: Actually I think it's a 6 week program. Once a week type cfa deal. Rocser: What's tile Dance for Fun thing? Is that? Mike: That's tile actually, it's a three session, they have like a fall, winter, spring session. Roescr: What kind of dancing? I mcan is this again roi' kids? Mike: Yeah. It starts with 3 year olds and works it's way up. We have Kinderdance. Ballet, tap, jazz. All kinds of: They have a recital in tile spring. It's a pretty big deal so. Lash: How about the Santa Brunch. Any rough ideas what kind of numbers you had? Rucgcmer: Yeah, you bet. 1 have that. 817 were served on Sunday at the Recreation Center. Just hear a lot of positive comments from everybody attending. Tile Rec Center really lends itself very well to that event. The community set up...tile staff has always been very helpful in 11 Park & Rec Comn'fission Meeting - December 9, 1997 that.., and everything set up for that. It works out great having this vinyl floor out there for certain... It really is a nice area. It works nice having the milk area in working with the school for their walk-in cooler. They'll go over there ahead of time...very good event. Thc tree lighting ceremony happened last Saturday night. Had about 125 people there roughly for that. We had a bonfire out there. Had hot cider... Santa Claus made a great entry. Franks: Is that right by the clock tower? Is that where the lighting? Ruegemer: Yeah. Santa made a great entrance in the aerial truck. Up in the bucket... I think really for next year I think there's some ideas presented that maybe we should look...or some kind ofa...maybe closer to City Hall on main street. Maybe in the expansion area of City Hall. Whether it's closer to West 78th Street or closer to Coulter Drive. Kind of get it more tbcused more towards City Hall so we can look at that. Lash: Away from thc clock tower for the tree lighting thing? I would support a live tree. Ruegemer: We can take a look at that .... getting moved with road projects, that type of thing so we can take a look at transplanting another tree and we'll... Lash: Okay. Anything else on the monthly report'/ B. FALL PROGRAMS. Dexter: Thank you Chairman and the commission .... highlight some of the programs that are going on and now, I guess part of my job is to kind of...how thc programs actually. We're down with our fall programs. We still have a few in place but the ones that are complete, I have just jotted down the program and then the net revenue. That of course is... In all six of them that have finished up, five did well and we have to cancel one tbr lack of interest. You know and something that xve think about every time when we offer new programs quarterly is, we don't want to just keep turning thc wheels and offering programs that, fecl like you have to offer programs. We try to evaluate... Right now you can kind of see some of thc programs that have been very successful for us. And as with all the programs that we do out at the Rec Center, we do afier action reports on and a very thorough evaluation of the program and all those after action reports arc available in my... The revenue and expense report...so if you really want to know about the program... And then just to let you know, I may have mentioned it last month but November was a record breaking month for us out at the Rec Center .... we have 17,500 revenue in that...and it came fi'om two areas .... dance and of course our pre-school sports. We have had... Any questions? Lash: Is this the time I should do my pre-school speech? Or should I wait until we get to the. Hoffman: Admin. l,ash: Okay. Should we wait? 12 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Audience... Lash: So is it just the fundamentals of how to wear skates and move? It's not floor hockey then. Audience: No. Hanus Sports... Lash: Make sure there's a winner. Audience: ...yeah, of like I said. Of how to fall. How to pick yourself up... Lash: Okay. Anything else on that? All right, let's move on. C. SENIOR CENTER COORDINATOR'S REPORT. Lash: Anyone have anything they'd like to comment on? ttoffman: Kara sends her regrets. She had another comnaimaent... Lash: It looks like she's doing a great job. Commissioner: It is. I think it's tremendous. 1 can't wait until I'm a senior. But they reallyjust do so much... ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS: A. REFERENDUM PROJECT STATUS. Hoffinan: Thank you Chair Lash, members of thc Commission. I'd like to go through in more detail one of these to give you an idea on the schedule. I participated in a four hour meeting today with our project consultants for tile trails and...updated infomaation for you. Neighborhood parks, it says there and this goes down the list. What we have received fi'om Brewer and Associates...back to our staffand... The program, elements of thc program. It was identified at those meetings, how big do you xvant the field? Do you want irrigation? Do you wan! grass? Gravel? How many fields'? What they've done is kind of broke down all those numbers and developed what they feel are the sizes of the elelnents that we xvould like to sec, that the comnlunity would like to see in these parks. They have submitted all that raw data to us this morning...comment on those. On kind of their reaction to the community's input and then take that to thc next round of... Lash: Are you talking about neighborhood parks or community parks? Hofflnan: Oil, excuse me. I started with tile wrong one. Community. Yeah, talking about tiao community parks. $1.4. So we have Bandimere and City Center. Where we're at today is developing a base plat to start fi'om. So they want a survey of accurate information. What's out 13 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 in the field today. The surveyors have been employed. They've been working at Bandimere, or excuse me, at City Center for the last week. I've seen the trucks and the four wheelers driving around...and leaving survey...of all the trees. What elevations we have out there. Where the buildings are. Where the existing facilities are. Where the tree is out there and where every piece of asphalt. Every fixed amenity in that site will be surveyed. The elevation will be fixed so they can have an accurate base...to start irnprovements. And then they will move down to Bandimere and complete the same process. So we arc moving into kind of that second phase of...design and we would most likely schedulc, your first review back at the Commission with the public invited in January. And Jeff and I will determine a date this Thursday morning. He's coming in at 8:00 to talk about the scheduling... A lot of good input from the neighbors. So far they've responded very positively. We have one property owner at City Center which is a new homeowner kind of right up at the comer of the existing park and the expanded area so we're kind...with him. Started off very, very excited back somewhat so...So any questions on community parks? Apologize about the confusion. Lash: You're going to bring this back to us and it will be presented to us in a public meeting at the same time? Hoffinan: lfyou'd like to do a work session. Lash: I'd prefer a work session I think. Anyone else have feelings? Howe: Yeah, I agree. Lash: Okay. HotTman: Okay. Other issues on thc community park sites'? City Center or Bandimere? We continue to work with Doug Hanson, the property o~vner of the land north of City Center which...proposed expansion. Wc need to get a little tighter handle on budget and hoxv much that land costs... Manders: So in terms of attendance by neighbors. Fair or good'? Hofflnan: Yeah, fi'om the numbers that I saw, other commissioners can comment. I ~vas out of IOWII. Lash: Yeah, we had a lot of good comments. But I guess I'm interested in when I said I wanted a work session, I'm talking about earlier in January and then our normal meeting, okay. I want to make sure you understand what l'm. Hofflnan: Yep, got it. Neighborhood parks, we will continue to work with our neighborhood group so we have 18 improvements. 18 park sites to complete improvements. We can kick those meetings off at the first of the year. Kind of towards the end of January. I'm currently negotiating a contract with Hoisington-Koegler Group to perform the professional work associated with that...and I'll do that with Council on the 13th in January. About half of those 14 Park & Rcc Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 are what you'd classify as real significant improvements where there'd be no real change in thc neighborhood so we want to keep those people in those neighborhood meetings xvith...and then bring them in for a Park Commission meeting. Present to you what has been completed as far as background investigation. Design. Product selection. Tlnose type of things and tlnen present that to you... Lash: How are you planning on doing that and getting all of those in this winter yet so that we can? Arc we planning on moving forward with tlnese in the summer, correct? Hof/hmn: Yep. Absolutely. January, February, and March. Lash: So more than one neighborhood a meeting, right? Hoffman: More than one. And you would, as a commission you'll need to let me know. traditionally what we're doing on the playgrounds is they're selecting their playgrounds and meeting as a neighborhood and then it comes back to tine commission. IF you want to do anything diftbrently, but that's about the only thing. You know are you applying asphalt, playgrounds, basketball pad, park trails. If there's anything of real interest that you want involved in up fi'ont, kind ofbetbre you turn that over to the neighborhoods and you need to let lllC klloxv. Lash: I think with the playground equipment, rather than just giving each neighborhood total fi'ee rein, I think economically we'd be better offifwc, not that I want to make each play experience a cookie cutter experience, but I think we would probably be better if we dealt with one vendor, wouldn't we'? As far as sending out, getting a bid. Hofiinan: All tine nexv equipnlent. l_ash: Right, right. Hoffman: Most of these arc adds. We're adding to an existing piece of equipment so we'll be dealing with... Lash: Okay, so we have, so we're limited there. Hoffinan: Everything we can package and bid competitively will absolutely be done. Lash: Okay. Hoffman: Construction of trails. We trove just completed tine first round of...association with the completion oftlnese six trail segments for really a total of about 7 miles of trails. Ttney completed preliminary alignment study and then proposed trail alignments for eacln one. Wlnich side oftlnc road it would be on. Where it would be...ditch section. Those tabulated... Highway 7 is all on tile south side of State Higlnway 7. It does encroach into Shorewood for a small portion.., autlnorization fi'om tine City of Slnorewood to complete tlmt trail. For tile most part tile 15 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 confusion on that trail had to do with the terminus. Starting and ending point. Why did we start it at Minnewashta Parkway? End it at Washta Bay Road. Why could it not extend farther to the west? ...matter of budget .... would have to cross the grade to go...you can enter internal streets off Washta Bay Road. A couple of areas that we're studying with the neighborhood. One has to do with the, kind of the parkway right in front of Minnewashta Heights Park. We're proposing moving the trail out of the ditch line, closer to the park to...put landscaping in there and the neighborhood would actually like to work with us to replace some of the landscaping which is now over 20 years old and grown up and... We are working with probably a dozen individual landowners concerning... For the most part this trail is within the existing right-of-way. Have to purchase very little permanent easements or temporary construction easements.., support for the trail on Highway 7, really... Lash: Trees would be the biggest issue. Hoffrnan: Trees are the biggest issue in all the projects and what really thc design and presentation team, how we characterize it is, just behind the top value of building the trails as approved by the referendum, the next value which we hold is preserving existing vegetation xvherever possible. Without jeopardizing the integrity of the alignment. Questions on Highway 7 before we move on? We'll take each one. This is kind of just an information session. I'll try to give you as much information as 1 can that we've discussed as kind of work team. You will receive that all in a packet of information which we proofed today and it has a project schedule in there. Review schedule we'll talk about here briefly and then that will be decimated tomorrow to the City Council and then I'll also send it to the Planning Commission and Park and Rec Commission. ,So all of this will be tabulated in a written form for you. It has all the Minutes of all the meetings which have been held to date. All of the comments from the citizens to date and our reaction. Galpin Boulevard is one, Powers and Galpin are the two longest segments. They also have the highest preliminary budgets. I'll talk about budget issues as we move here. We are too high at the present time...preliminary costs. That is due to costs of, or at least the preliminary cost estimates on permanent and temporary easements. Never in my estimation did I fathom that xve would be at nearly a halfa million dollars in permanent for an easement for trails. Looking at xvays to reduce that. They're also taking a look at ways to reduce the overall budget...trails. One of those is the terlninus at Galpin Boulevard trail...pretty significant retaining xvalls. There's also a narrow section...and it's one of thc least interesting as far as design. For just about this entire segment the design approved...right bchind the driving lane, the asphalt, bituminous curb and then...majority of that segment... Again when I talk about these, they're recommendations for consideration... Lash: Well there is a trail that coFnes south out of the park, right? There's an access because I remember we saw that when we went and looked at the playground location and it comes out to a cul-de-sac. Conversation at this point was not picked up on the tape. Lash: Can you just point out where Lake Lucy Road is right now'? Because I've lost my bearings. 16 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 ttoffman: Lake Lucy's riglnt there. Lasln: Okay. That's xvhere we would stop. Okay. So we could get people up tlnrougln the park, down on tlmt, and ~ve have access to get down to the Brendon, no up. Go up to the sclnool. Yep. Hofflnan: ...Lake Lucy... Lasln: And xve'd be able to get tlnem from the sclnool to tine street.'? HoFfman: Yep. Mayor Mancino: And then if Highover does have... Lash: That'd be a mucln more interesting route lbr people to takc anyway than right along Galpin. HotTman: Other issues on Galpin which you'll be presented on January... We've got a lot of work to do... Dave Neiberg and I will be participating in tlnose and tlncy're about a halt'lnour each so...that first Saturday to conduct those site visits. Then in order to ensure tlmt we've satisfied their concern, we need time to react and incorporate that into tine plans and then let thena f'ully... crossing at Brinkcr Road... There is considerable permanent easement acquisition as a part of this trail. It's a narrow right-ot'--way...those costs involved with this trail... Questions on Galpin? Lash: 1 know that night at the meeting, Ron you were there weren't you? We were kicking around thc idea of you know, xvhy xve'rc crossing and wc like tlne Brinker crossing better anyxvay but then we discussed just having the wlnole thing on the west side and I can't, now, did you say that you had some terrain issues along Kling's? Was that the deal or what? Hoffi~mn: Along Kling's and Farther to the north aud we've already started on... Lash: I think our thinking was tlnat it's a controlled intersection. You know right at TH 5. You've got the stop light and anyplace else is uncontrolled. So whether tlnere's a little lhousand foot stretch and you know at tlnis point in time we were willing to just ignore for the long term benefit of having a controlled intersection. Rocscr: ...Galpin across TH 5... Lash: Well, yeah. But still you've got to cross TH 5. Roeser: Yeah, you still... 17 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Lash: Oh, I think it's an okay place too but I know we had talked about you know overall would it be better to just do it at, you know have the whole thing on the west side and be done with it or, but if it's terrain things that we can't do anything about, then, Hoffman: Well yeah, there's a variety of factors. Terrain. On these two developments...when those were developed we took the additional right-of-way to allow the trail to go in there and so that's a cost savings. There's a cost savings in using thc first segment of trail. We abandon it using those costs. You go to the other side of the road, we're going to have increased casement acquisition costs and so we're driving our budget back up again. Audience... Hoftinan: Lake Minnewashta Regional Park will be accessed from, Lake Lucy Road I think... connector east and west in this community. That's something we lack dearly. You leave the center of town and you want to get to Lake Minnetonka Regional Park, you either have to choose TH 7 or TH 5 and then cut back down in. Lake Lucy Road is going to provide a very important east/west connector, both for pedestrian...That is the single amenity currently a lot of our residents are cut off from that they will...We have a new, very aggressive County Park Director who has been hired and put to work a week ago so he's already chasing dollars for us for our TH 101 trail and for this underpass. Questions'.> Other questions on Galpin? I think we'll try to speed it up so we can get through the segments. Powers Boulevard. The biggest...is from these townhomes. It has to do with the potential loss of trees...privacy of that area...we looked at how thc...we just stepped out of that meeting. Took a pho~:~e call. It was a family who lived on Willow Creek that said, just calling to say we're going to love that trail connection to the south and take my fence and cut down my trees. People are crazy who can't understand the value of this thing. It raises property values. And 1 said, well...we're considering stopping it at Pleasant View so xve'll sec what we can do. Lash: And we should run it all the way up there but stop it about Kerber. Kidding. Hoffman: Just can't win. So we're working very hard with those people, the residents along Powers. I think many of you know thc story about the county mandating a 30 foot clear zone which puts the trail right out into the trees, through the fence, in the front yard. They at least, in initial conversations have said we will support the City of Chanhassen in moving that trail within that clear ×one, that 30 foot clear zone which is intended to protect public safety from vehicles leaving the road. They as well are people who understand existing vegetation and those type of things. There's a balance. There's a trade-oil: So we are proposing to move that trail out into this ditch section, just north of...north of that we have encountered a lot of support. Very little opposition for a trail along that side of it. Roeser: Yeah, there's no good trees... It's the evergreens that are really... Hoffinan: There was a very good comment at the meeting about residents who live right up in here would like to access Lake Ann with a trail system. Now they're supposed to come off of Lake Lucy, down Powers and then take...cross here and go down the east side and then come 18 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 tip...what we fccl very strongly is, about as a design team, that by aligning this on the east side of the road...the entire Carver Beach neighborhood...Carver Beach here. Kcrber Boulevard, this sidewalk and trail system... You can shift that to the ~vest side of Powers. Force all those people to take, go to Powers. Cross Powers and go either north or south on this trail. We feel that this represents over 75% of trail easement... Audience... Hoffman: Recreation trail use is not.just about tiao most convenient access. It's about making loop sections, ;valking one way out and the other way back and Powers will play, it already plays a very important role if you talk to people who live along there and watch the pedestrian flow and activity... Powers is the, with the exception of Kerber, the most populated corridor, traveled corridor. Howe: The most bicycles anywhere in town. Hoffnmr~: Between Excelsior and. Berg: Little kids. Hoffman: On tile east side is. More questions or comments about Powers? Manders: Yeah, I think that road alignment on, that can't be pulled back. Hoffinan: It's not going to be supported. Manders: There's no way that that can go througlL Hoffinan: Talking with Jiln Carlson with NSP right now and costs of going underground with those power poles or else going around those, it's...so there are some other issues to iron out. Berg: ls thoro any xvay to make it safer'? Maybe wc...with a stop sign for example at Kcrbcr and Powers. And maybe drop the speed limit so that cars aren't as fast. Make it safer, lfvce have to get it closer to thc road, can we get some concession fi'om xvhomever to slow down the traffic. Hoffman: Yeah, we talked about, the residents talked that at tile lneeting. My reaction there, my comment back to them was, the fact that we xvould have to go closer to tiao road xvith this trail and they have a design standard Ibc the speed limits, then how close that trail can and can't be so if you're at 50, it needs to be farther away. If you're at 40, it can be closer. 30, etc. They're not going to support lowering the speed limit based on the presence of the trail. I encouraged those residents to separate those two arguments and if we as a community want to engage the County in either traffic control or speed limits on Powers, we really need to do ti-tat outside of the context of this trail. This is their right-of-way. We are on their turf. We're building a city trail in their right-of-way. They hold all the cards. Many, many people are concerned about the speed limits on Powers and when you talk to them about tiao formula they say, well how can, on one of them, 19 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 how can the formula work in Excelsior? You're at 30 there. Then you jump to 50. Then you go down to 45. And so how can that be? The formula says, you need to post it as fast as cars typically drive. So you go out there and you go with the radar gun and you clock 1,000 cars. You pick the average. That's how fast. Berg: That's...they go 30 in Excelsior because they have a trap there every Other I5 minutes. It's not because the... Lash: Well the speed limit was there before they... They established the speed limits before they ever. Rocser: ...people are driving 55 and 60. But [ know when you go into Excelsior everybody drives 30 mph because they...Now maybe if the County were out there writing tickets on Powers Boulevard, it might slow it down...50 times a year and I've never seen a policeman on it. Lash: Oh I have. Roeser: Have you? Lash: On the south side, they've been down there like crazy this fall. Berg: I think one of the stronger arguments on that speed thing was where they're talking on the south side of TH 5, you've got a split highway and they've got ~ur there... Hoflhmn: As many people wanted to talk about speed on Powers as they did the trail. Lash: Well Galpin will be as bad as Powers once it has as much housing there. Hoffinan: You know what they'll tell you at this intersection is, a stop sign has absolutely nothing to do ~vith speed. Stop sign has to do with traffic congestion at the intersection. So if there is not enough, if there are not enough vehicle movements at this intersection to warrant a stop sign, they'll never consider it. They'll tell you it will actually... Kind of in order we move onto the Bluff Creek trail. The Bluff Creek connection trail is the last piece of the really the first segment of the BluffCreek trail from Highway 5...so that's our initiation point. We travel down through park space...Bluff Creek Estates and then... There are a couple of interesting...hot topics... The value you place...you told us this trail was going to be through 4 years ago... Lash: We've been waiting 4 years. Hoffman: 4 years so they would like to see it go in. Lash: However there's displeasure fi'om the resident who's subdividing the lot. Hoffman: Oh yes. Highway 101 connection trail. Highway 101 south. Again, the most striking design feature in this is the crossing. Starting at Chanhassen Hills. On the lake side of the road 20 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 199'7 or on the west side of the road, and going around this S curve and 90 degree curve wittn... Thc consultants were talking about...guardrail at least on either side of A1 Klingelhutz's driveway. His driveway is right at the apex of that 90 degree turn. I'd like to guardrail the entire thing but then Al couldn't gain access to his property so talking about at least going...80-90% of the danger with guardrails. And then we travel doxvn to the crossing at Great ?lains...That's where it crosses the lake side...back into the east side and then to the north. West 86th, the other setting in that. Obviously if the intersection was approved there, they said we hope the sight lines... They have a person on staff where they will charge...leaving the report on that because that was an issue of discussion at the public meeting. Lash: Tremendous support for this and also shoxv where they'd like to see it very soon connect. Hofflnan: Lots of people, including Maury Walsh who's the...not included because of it's... Audience... Lash: And we discussed if the trail goes in, xvhcn this trail goes m as proposed, even if the road does realign, it would still make a nice trail corridor that would be not right along 101. It would be axvay, which would enhance its usability but what people really were very concerned with is trying to~,,et in in the very~ near future without a referendum type issue, would be to extend it south to Lyman and then...kyman is being redone in the next couple of years and there would be a hunk done along there and then we need to come down 101 just to connect it to the park. So the two sections. And then people would go from this southern section up through the park, off of 101 and make the connection through the park itself: Hoffman: That's one of the sections that Marry is taking... Franks: What about where it crosses back over to tine cast side of West 86tt~'? The stakes are like way up into those people's yards. Were there any comments fi'om? Hoffman: I talked to...generally not opposed. In fact he was in favor of the trails but he was disgruntled about all of the activity that the property has been faced xvith over the years .... roads and trees. What lne manages there, and fi'om what the neighbors tell us...world class lnorses. $o he has enough headaches to deal with...Moving south to the last segment, the Lake Riley trail... Then wc moved a couple of areas...we would like to build a trail along Pioneer. They say, well go out to that 30 foot clear zone and you can plan your trail. So we would have to take all of those trees, so again here we are appealing to tine county. Stay inside of that 30 foot clear zone so wc can eliminate... The last issue on Lake Riley is the connection point...existing, what I will call kind cfa formal type of an access down the road and there's a...save $50,000.00 to $80,000.00 by not having...much more elaborate COlmection... Lash: Well this xvould be a benefit to the city if Eden Prairie too to connect to ours. Is it something that we can communicate with them? See if maybe down the road we could cut a little deal and do some cost sharing measures there? 21 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Hoffman: ...that we provided... Lash: In their city though. Hoffman: Yeah... continue to negotiate. Lash: Just on the very south end of 101, I can recall there was a resident and I drive there every day too, who was concerned about all the large evergreens there too. Right, and so that's something we're going to try and work around too aren't we? And then up at the north stretch, the guys with the culvert...what did you guys come up with? Hoffman: They drove that in fact that night and...in fact all the trails have some of the most exciting connections... Questions on the process. What we're looking tbr is for you to establish that special meeting to review this...where you will be presented with a formal presentation from the consultant... Where we are at with design, alignments, working with the neighborhoods. We will have held all of our on site meetings and then you can take public comlncnt and we'll be looking for a recommendation before it gets to the City Council. The following evening, on the 21~ will be the same report with the Planning Commission and then move into the following week for thc first review by the City Council. As far as timing, that's what we. Rocser: You expect to get through all six segments? Hoffman: In one special meeting, yeah. One night. That will be a sole topic agenda. Manders: Just that rneeting then, not the following regular meeting too'? Hofflnan: You'll probably have 30 to 40 minutes of formal presentation and discussion on each. Lash: (?an we start at 7:00 that night? Is everybody okay with that? Hofth~an: And then these are the details... Audience... Hoffman: Council has ordered a preliminary feasibility study be delivered... Lash: Anything else? Referendum. Hoffman: The last item is the preservation of open space. What we're into right now is a airing out period between the kind of the...and the City of Chanhassen and the landowners and... Lash: Okay. Anybody have any further comments on that'? Okay. Let's move onto the next item which is our 1998 meeting schedule. B. 1998 MEETING SCHEDULE. 22 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Hot,Shah: The only change xvould be to take that special meeting in January fi'om 13~h to tine 20th and then take any other comments from the commission on the schedule. Lash: Would we want to move the May one a week tbrward then so we're cont'licting with City Council? Hoffman: You'd meet in two different rooms. Lash: Right. Move it to the 19th? Does anyone have a conflict with the November one'? Okay. Is there a motion to accept this schedule with that change? The May change. Someone please. Mcgcr: So moved. Lash: Is there a second'? Howe: Second. Meger moved, Howe seconded to accept the 1998 meeting schedule for the Park and Recreation Commission amended to change the Ma)' meeting to May 19th. All voted in favor and the motion carried. C. FAREWELL TO JANE MEGER~ RESIGNING MEMBER. Lash: Okay our next sad note is our fhrewell to Jane. Gcc just when things are getting interesting. Meger: Yeah, l just decided after watching tlnis that maybe I'm not going to go. Lash: So what, you know you're willing to help out until we ~nd a replacement? l-toffi~an: ...your i-brmal January, regular meeting. 27m so Jane would have to stay fi~r at least... Meger: And that's just fine. I just thought at this point l'm spending so much time heading north... Lash: Are you planning on looking through the file for who we interviewed last time to contact'? HolTman: Yep. We put the ad twice in the Villager. We'll mail it back to those candidates... Lash: Thanks. Well we're going to miss you Jane. COMMISSION rVIENIBER PRESENTATIONS: None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET: 23 Park & Rec Cornmission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Lash: Anyone besides me? Howe: Well I saw that article. I talked to Fred about that. I mean how much did you pay her to write that? Lash: Okay, and that was not solicited. It truly was not solicited but is it everything that I've been trying to say? And I just feel re-energized here, that someone else is trying to say what l'm saying and you know fbr Caroline, this is her area of expertise and for me it also is my area of expertise. However I'm tom being on the commission and trying to get the Rec Center be a financially functioning entity and then, and it is being, it turned out to be our biggest drawing card there. So I'm really torn in looking at the financial aspect of it, but in my heart I know we should not be providing this activity tbr children this age. Every bit of my training tells me that children who are 4 years old, 4 to 6 years old are not developmentally ready for these programs. Whether their parents want them in there or not, and the kids think they want to be in it, they are just developmentally not physically or emotionally ready for some of these programs. So I'll just go on record again as saying I really am fairly opposed to the pre-school soccer and basketball programs that we're offering and I'm glad to see someone else has voiced this concern and if there's anyone else who has got feelings, I'd appreciate having some backing. Besides Caroline. But I am torn. I know it's a financially thing tier tls and we need those programs but. Dexter: ...and 1 don't know, maybe Todd will comment on it also, but I followed up with a phone call and talked...and from what I heard her say was that that basketball...but on the flip side...much of an issue with soccer. That was not as structured maybe or technical of skills... I don't wan to say competitive but not as maybe technical is the word. And so she supported part of it. I asked here, I said you know what could we do to maybe help you out here in, with your comments and she said, you know she also made the comment, she said you know 4, 5 and 6 year olds all, at those three ages do not belong together. I said, you know if we maybe just offered it to 4 and 5 year olds, are you rnore receptive to that'? Is your concern... She said, yeah. That would help. That there wouldn't be that range. 4 year olds and your 6 year olds... So I talked to her about that. And then we talked a little bit about that there is the expectations of the parents is a lot different than what the child is getting out of it. And I don't, I did not ask Caroline if she had... Lash: She has children but not that age. Dexter: So she xvas unaware that we do a letter out at the beginning of the session going over the philosophy of the program. That we really focus on more of a socialization. Incidental learning. Some sports though, there is going to be more skills involved. So when I asked, you know if she had any ideas of how we could maybe., .a little bit so that we state that we don't encourage competitiveness. There's no scoring for the team. It's a little different than ice skating but it's an... that's very much individual. You know so we tossed out some of those ideas and when I, in wrapping up with her I said that we do have a letter that goes out...about the philosophy of the Y and the City in that it's very much a socialization...and I left it at that and said if she had...and I also told her, I said you know I don't believe that at any point...feel pressured to do this. The 24 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - Decclnber 9, 1997 YMCA approached us a year ago or a year and a half ago and at that time, you know as programmers we look at it as you know bow can we...so we thought well let's go for it and I think we were surprised that the response was as great as it is. So I told her you know that it wasn't pressure that we were receiving to do it. On tine flip side it's... Lash: I said if we tried to cancel it at this point tlnere'd be. Hoffinan: There may be but again, our programming is based on supply and delnand. That's how we lnanage it...Now bore we're making a judglnent on whether or not it's... Lash: I've never seen tiffs offered. I don't know really how it's delivered. I don't, I haven't seen the letter that goes to parents. Hoffman: Do you want to review that? Lash: Yeah. That'd be a good thing tbr me to probably sec. It might make me rest easier over tiao whole. Howe: My son took t-ball and very low key and everybody hits and everybody runs around tile bases and nobody keeps score and I thought it was well done. It's not vcry competitive. Now basketball I consider a much more ora skill game. I don't think my kid could dribble a basketball, or shoot but t-ball I thought was great and I see soccer's huge. I mean the fields arc packed. Dexter: One of the things that, every week we have a theme. It might be like beach ball one night. It alight be camcordcrs another night. I don't know if you remember some in the sumnler. They really try to tie in public socialization out there with 4 and 5 year olds so... Lash: All my early childhood classes that I had, I mean tile guiding rule xvas no games with rules beloxv age 7. That's it. You know until they're 6-7 year olds, they just really have difficulty following rules and the meaning of it and feeling tile pressure and not understanding what they're doing and why they're doing it and why they're not the center of everything because that's, they're very cgocentrical at that age. And games with rules are confining and especially tile team thing. I mean xve've all seen our kids play t-ball. You know if they're not up to bat or tile ball is not hit directly to them, they're not engaged in what they're doing. You knoxv they're twirling their hats and they're throwing their mitt in the air and they're doing, you know writing in the dirt and they're doing xvhatever else they can do until it's actually their turn to do something. So they really need to be actively involved all the time or they're not really a part of the team. Manders: The question I would ask, in answer to the question is how self supportive are any of these programs? Hoffman: They make money. 25 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Manders: To the extent that they make money and they're paying for themselves, and the parent wants to put them in there, fine. Let them. I think we're in no position to. Lash: And this is where I'm saying I'm conflicted. You know we're offering a program that goes contrary to everything that I've learned in the best interest of children. But the children are doing it because the parents, because we're offering it and the parents want them involved. And it's self supporting and it's earning us money so that's why I'm conflicted. Berg: ...don't have any problem with the age limit on other activities, whether it be through CAA or our regulations...I don't see how there's any difference. Manders: I think you have a good point in terms of supply and demand. I mean if there's obviously the demand, the supply situation gets in the way of...then I'd come over to that way of thinking. Given that we have thc supply, and there's certainly thc demand, I don't have a problem with supplying it... Berg: Then it does become a philosophical question. We have an obligation as a commission, knowing what we know.. ,do we have an obligation to look at that...and maybe eliminate it because...but we do it at other age levels. We do limit things because it's going to be harmfid for kids to play hockey at this age. If it's going to be harmful to play... Lash: They're all the parents of preschoolers. No, but they do. They have the kids in that age. Hoffman: As long as we're airing the issues, let's get it all on the table. You know there is a certain amount of animosity between the Athletic Associations in town and the Y being here as well. Because what tends to happen where the CAA offers programs and the Y... on what they feel. Why are they offering? What's their incentive in offering these programs? Lash: They make money. tqoffman: Is it because there's a need or is it because they have a strong...Then you bring the CAA to tile table and hoxv do they feel about the YMCA being in town, taking up facilities, offering programs... The Mayor asked a question about, well can you soften the program and I think wc can but...providers of the program would come in and say, programs are... Lash: Well and as much as you try to soften it and they've done that with t-ball, ]ny kids have been through it so you know I've been there. I even helped coach it. It's, ultimately it ends up being tile parents and as much as you can try to soften it, it's only as soft as the parents will allow it to be. And eventually it gets, the parents get like this and then the kids get like this and then pretty soon coaches are, I was out yelling at a guy out at second base one time you know. I mean it's the nature of the game. You get caught up in it. Well the guy was a, you know, he wasn't coaching appropriately. But it's unfortunate but that happens and then that's the kind of stuff that thc kids get wrapped up in and as much as you don't keep score and you don't count outs and you don't do all of that, the kids do. If you talk to the kids at the game, they know if they got out. They know if they made it home. They know ultimately who won, as much as the parents 26 Park & Rec Comlnission Meeting - December 9, 1997 keep saying it ,,vas a tie, it was a tie, it was a tie. The kids keep track because they know ill baseball there's a winner and there's a loser and they've seen it on TV and they know. They keep track. I saw it year after year. It happened. As much as we try, it just doesn't ever seem like there's too lnuch you can do. But maybe this is, it gets to be definitely a philosophical debate that could probably go on forever but maybe it's tbod For thought that xve can bring up as some of these seasons open up again. Meger: I have, my 5 year old is going to...so then I'll be very interested to watch. }tis big thing is he wants to get in the gym and just be able to dribble around. That's what he wants to do so it will be interesting to see. Audience... Lash: Okay. I don't think we did either but I think it can be continued another night. Hoffinan: ...it will just lay until you bring it up again. Lash: Yeah. Arc there any other? Howe: Two more things. One more thing. This is less controversial. Adult volleyball. Who is going to play in the Park and Rec team? Any interest here? Seriously. Berg: What's the commitment time wise? ttoxvc: Looks like Wednesday night. lqoflSnan: Nine weeks. Howe: I don't know what times are. Any interest yet? Ruegemer: Yeah, we're getting some phone calls... Howe: lfwe have enough people you know you can miss some games. What is it, it's 6 people? We nccd more women. Can you fill in tbr us? Berg: Clearly recreational? Howe: Yeah. l'm not going to be... Megcr: ...unless 1 get to win. Manders: I ah'eady play Wednesday nights so...I'd play but. Howe: All right. Ron, would you play'? 27 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Roeser: Let me know when it's going down, yeah. Berg: Yeah, church night but I'll get away. Howe: Jan? Lash: No. Howe: No'? Lash: No, I might break a nail and then I'd cry .... watcr volleyball, that's it. Otherwise I hate volleyball. Howe: I've got to rethink this and I'll get back to you all. The other thing I wanted to say about the Rec Center, about dribbling around the gym is, I told maybe Patty this the other day. Or someone at the breakfast, maybe Jerry. I rented the gym with a bunch of men from my neighborhood to play basketball the last Saturday in November and we have 12 men and half of these guys, and they live in one of the circles of that Rec Center, had never been there and they loved it. I was shocked and they wanted to come back so we're going to start a regular thing where we'll rent the gym once a month but they'd never seen the place and they were walking around and what a great place and I really couldn't believe that there are people who live that close to that kind of facility and didn't use it. Or had never seen the inside of it, so I'm not, just a comment. They'll be customers now. Hoffman: Try to get them. Howe: I'll get them. Hoffman: Good. Great, thank you. Lash: Anyone clse? Hoffman: I'd like to echo Mayor Mancino's comments on your participation level and also... support thc commission. Often tirncs you think you operate here in vacuum and a bubble. If you recall a couple years back Jan Lash ordered a statewide report on commission participation and we had that same banquet here this past Friday up...and we talked to some Park and Rec Conamissioners from :St. Louis Park. Communities that...and we discussed how engaged and active this commission is. You remain one of the envies of the metropolitan area as far as park... so I think if you're ever wondering, are we doing a good job? That's known but are you active and are you participating I think... Audience... 28 Park & R¢c Commission Meeting - December 9, 1997 Hoffman: Yeah, the real hard facts are Ashworth, Aanenson, Folch, and Hoffman at least at stall' level.., and my argument will not include a great deal about traffic studies except I will comment on how I feel both businesses and residents would access that part of... Lash: Any show of hands of...? Audience... Howe: I'd like to make it. I'll try. Lash: I'll commit. Rocser: I'm not sure yet. }toffi~mn 6:o0 back here. Actually it starts at ~ :o0...secondary topic if you're at all interested in... preservation will I think so I'm sure it will conac up... kccp thinking about it... Lash: Isn't it going to be the, science, what arc we talking about? Mayor Mancino: Inteu, retative center. Lash: Interpretative center, there you go. That's the word I'm looking fi)r. Ho~x'e moved, Roeser seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the molion carried. Submitted by Todd Hoffinan Park & Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 29