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1 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MARCH 24, 1998 Vice Chairman Berg called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Fred Berg, Ron Roeser, Jim Manders, Mike Howe, and Rod Franks. Jan Lash arrived late to the meeting. MEMBERS ABSENT: David Moes STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer and Patty Dexter, Recreation Supervisors; "GALPIN BOULEVARD" (FOREST MEADOW) PARK: REVIEW PARK MASTER PLANS AND DEVELOPMENT SCHEDULE~ SELECT NAME FOR GALPIN BOULEVARD PARK. (Taping of the meeting began at this point in the discussion.) Manders: ...does the loop interfere with any of the other open play opportunities there or is it serve a good purpose in this small area to have a loop set up? Koegler: ! think it serves a purpose in that it creates... Hoffman: The Curry Farms neighborhood is a, they're a big advocate of that, that they have that little trail loop. They see that as a real destination for their walks. Howe: ...here connect to anything right now? Hoffman: In the future it will connect and in fact during construction we may leave it out. Currently there's a temporary pond, a storm water management pond. In the future it will connect to the streets that will access the property to the south as it develops and the timing of that is unknown and then if you can visualize the Lundgren trail, which are on the south side of their Longacres and Woods development, will eventually be the destination for this trail. To get down into the Bluff Creek corridor kind of on the back side of the properties and then there will also be out on Galpin. Berg: Other commission questions. Comments from the audience. If you have any, would you please come to the microphone and state your name and address. Hoffman: One thing I'd also ask the commission to explore, we talked about neighborhood installation and I will mail a letter off to, talking about that. We need 10 or 15 volunteers to install this equipment, working about two 6 hour days. At least at our initial meeting they Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 recommended or they thought we could arrange or organize that so that would be our intent. It saves about $3,000.00 which you can invest back into equipment and really kind of kicks off the, you know the park. Roeser: And they sound like they're willing to do it. Is that the impression you got? Berg: Put that down in writing that you're. Roeser: Well it worked in that other. Hoffman: Yeah in the last two. Audience... Franks: So you're saying that initially that trail connection would be left off until those streets are in or the connection's more positive. So really what we'd be looking at is just really building the loop trail. Hoffman: We'll make a field call on that. There's still going to be residents of the neighborhood would like to have public access via the street connection down at this point and so if we bring it part way and still make some sense out of that, but this pond has to be... Berg: Do you need a motion? Hoffman: Yeah, we need some series of motions I guess. The first one approving the park master plan and then decision on park name and then the authorization of bids. Let's do that first one first. Anyone care to. Roeser: I'd move to approve the park master plan. Howe: Are you calling it right now? Hoffman: Right now. Berg: Is there a second? Howe: I second. Roeser moved, Howe seconded to approve the park master plan for Galpin Boulevard Park and Roundhouse Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Berg: Selecting the name. How should we proceed? Those of you who have seen your packet with some of the suggestions. Are there other names that anybody cares to offer at this point? Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Manders: ! don't know that ! want to select a name tonight. I don't have any great ideas and 1 don't know if there's a big rush to do it. Maybe there is, but that's my opinion. I don't think there is. Berg: Other comments? Ron? Roeser: I don't really have, I thought maybe you could name it like Schroeder Park or something after the first Mayor of Chanhassen... We've got to deal with the neighborhood and I'm not sure what they... I frankly don't like any of these...not too far from the Lyman house either, is it.'? Lyman Park too. That's the first post office in Chanhassen. It has a lot of. Berg: If they'd consider that, I'd think about that. Roeser: Hoffman Park. Franks: We're talking about the necessity for about 15 volunteers so I'm assuming the neighborhood's going to have to get together and somehow get this going. I think that'd be a great time to also...get more people together and kick some names around. If you're going to go so far as to...equipment and have that kind of ownership of the park, it'd be kind of nice for the neighborhood to have a hand in it. Howe: I agree with that. With my colleague to the right. Berg: Okay, do I have a motion to table. Manders: Move to table. Roeser: Second. Manders moved, Roeser seconded to table selecting a name for the park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Berg: Now selecting a vendor, is that what you're talking about? Hoffman: Authorization to prepare plans. Manders: I'd move that we recommend the neighborhood develop a plan, prepare a bid and bring that back to the commission. Roeser: Staff don't you mean? Hoffman: We would propose to prepare the guidelines. We've heard some input from the neighborhood and then...proposals and get that group together. That'd be a great first meeting for the installation crew and about, we could get proposals in about 4 weeks. Get them together. 3 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Take a look at the proposals. Talk about a park name. Select the equipment. Make the recommendations back to the commission in May. Manders: Yeah that. Roeser: That'd be staff doing that, right? Berg: Got a second? Howe: Second. Manders moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to prepare bids for Galpin Boulevard Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ROUNDHOUSE PARK~ REVIEW PARK MASTER PLANS AND DEVELOPMENT SCHEDULE. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Paul: ...qualified and most eager to work on this Roundhouse is Tim Mackowain...park related construction... Hoffman: We've also noted that Shel Hannafin, that she has some architectural experience and we'd certainly involve her in that process. Berg: Anything else Paul? Paul: No. We touched on the focus of... Roeser: So you want to get it looking good first, right? Paul: Yeah. Berg: Is there anyone in the audience that would like to make any, do you have any. Come up to the microphone please and. Tom Lano: Tom Lano of 6991 Country Oaks Road and I'm a resident right behind it. I was at that meeting with Todd and I think it was a great meeting that we had. A lot of concerns and a lot of people came to it. Myself, personally I've been watching this park for the last 6 months of living there and Todd mentioned about the snow removal of the sidewalk. That was one of my comments simply because there's a lot of people that walk and use this park. I get up at 5:00 in the morning and I see people walking diligently around this one mile track from the parkway and back. And what I notice is a lot of people do is, they're walking out on Kings Road. Country Oaks...from here all the way down. It's pretty dark I noticed, more and more, and people wear reflective things and when it's not plowed they're walking out on the road. My feeling is, and I 4 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 don't know Todd you did talk with the lighting inside for a night light or something like that but I'd like to see lighting on that road to, for safety. Pretty important. And knowing that you're going to be starting to do a lot of finish off on sodding...underground to make sure that that gets finished off too. Not only that, the lighting in the parking lot there, I noticed come in and they'll drive in and it's pretty dark, especially in the winter time when you're going to do the skating thing. It gets dark early real quick. There's no lighting at all and I think with an 8 acre park and a lot of money put into it, you should have this thing lit up for safety purpose because 5 and 12 year old people are coming in and important on the safety issue there. Roeser: The rink is going to be lit isn't it? Paul: It would be, yes. Berg: Where are we in terms of power access in terms of lights along Kings Road there or along the driveway or in the parking lot? Are we talking a major expense? Hoffman: We can work on the lighting in the parking lot. There'd be no problem with lighting. On Kings Road, that was addressed as a part of the upgrade of the road and omitted by the engineers and City Council. I don't know what the reasons on either side were but the road is newly upgraded and lighting was not considered as a part of that upgrade so. I'll research that and respond to Mr. Lano. Howe: How is to start plowing the sidewalk? We don't have any equipment to do a 5 foot sidewalk? Hoffman: We have to transport. Howe: A Bobcat or something. Hoffman: Yeah, I'm not sure...Bobcat onto that sidewalk. Dale and I, Dale Gregory, our Park Foreman, Park Superintendent, talked last year and it's a difficult stretch. Probably there and the original installation, if we were going to plow that, it should have gone to a trail or an 8 foot concrete sidewalk. Let me explore the possibilities. Even a Bobcat is going to be too wide. Manders: Wouldn't we, I mean aren't there other sidewalk situations like that in the city? How do we address those? Hoffman: Not very many. We don't plow sidewalks in residential areas. Trails for the most part. You'll see in Eden Prairie, Edina and other cities that do plow their sidewalks, they buy an implement specific to it. In the early winter or the late winter or early spring, you get the uneven ground underneath that sidewalk and you start driving a Bobcat on there and pretty soon you've broke. Heavy equipment is not ideal for it. We'll investigate that. It makes good sense to include it as a part of the... Berg: Commissioner comments or questions. Mike, do you want to start? Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Howe: No, it looks good. If the residents are behind it, I think that's wonderful. Manders: I had a couple things. Talking about that trail linkage around there. Can you go over that again. 1 guess I'm just, the linkage, how does the trail...established there and how does that link into whatever else? Hoffman: ...this area was deleted and a lot of discussion about the crossing. Where would the formal crossing take place and we concluded that it needed to take place... We know if there's going to be dual activities, it's going to be picnic, play area, beach. So if you're having an activity here and you want to get to the beach... When you get in the field it becomes quite apparent.., and this trail here did not make sense .... trail out here and a T connection and then they can walk down and... Manders: Is there any fencing or anything else to do that? Hoffman: We talked about a split rail fence through here... We had this as really the trail focal point because it is also a crossing. The trail is on the east side of the parkway at this location. It crosses over and then goes north. So anybody coming from the south will just have a direct linkage straight on to the... If they're coming from the north, they'll come down here and again have to make that choice. Are they going to cross...bikes, strollers, wagons involved...obviously they're most likely going to make a choice to go down here to the controlled crossing... Manders: How do you get down to the beach? Is it back up towards the middle there as opposed to down by Kings Road? Hoffman: The beach? Manders: Yeah. Hoffman: Right here. Manders: So the access to it is right about there? Hoffman: A really complete access has very little space between the road...allows access to the roundhouse building for warming house and other activities... And then here is another internal trail which people find very attractive. The plan is on the outside of this trail to allow that vegetation...natural and to continue that around the corner around the private property... Inside the trail we'll mow that area. It also allows access to that open space. Manders: Are there any other linkages to the neighborhood? Hoffman: We looked at one off of the north here. It was never included... Howe: What type of fence are we looking at up here? Was it a chainlink or what? Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Hoffman: This would be 6 foot black chainlink. We talked about at their home.., quite a bit of vegetation right now... Berg: My questions too. Manders: Then the other question I had was on the pier. Is that like a temporary pier like Lake Ann where you take it out in the winter time? Hoffman: You take it out and then we'll push it sideways up against the beach so in the spring if we get, depending on which way the wind's blowing, the ice will come offand it comes offour direction and that pier is sitting out there in this type ora location, often times that ice will pick it up and push it right across the road. So we take those out, there's two pins on the outside. You pull those. Disengage the footing in this location and then lay it sideways onto the beach and if the ice pushes it up, it will push it... They're floating piers with galvanized steel and treated lumber. Berg: Slick as a whistler. Hoffman: They're very nice and we should be out into deep enough water that, so if there's minimal so...at least that's what Nancy Wenzel reported. I asked her, well are we going to catch any fish off of that pier? She said well I can catch them off my dock so catch them off the pier. Berg: Excited to see this taking shape. Hoffman: ...and I talked to another resident today who lives, or.just purchased their lot back in the trees and I told him the story about that's where originally they wanted the park to go and he's... 100 times nicer. Berg: Do we need a motion to formalize the bidding process? Hoffman: Yep, for the playground. Berg: ...that motion. Manders: I don't know what to formalize. Hoffman: Authorize bidding for the playground. Manders: Identify the 5 to 12 and kind of similar to. Hoffman: Yep. We'll call back the neighborhood and have them... Manders: Bring it back to the commission. That's what I'd like to formalize. 7 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Berg: Is there a second? Howe: Second. Manders moved, Howe seconded to authorize bidding for playground equipment for Roundhouse Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Berg: Todd it says we're meeting with Prairie Knoll at 7:30. Do we have to wait until then? Hoffman: What I proposed is that we take the program reports and any administrative presentations to fill in the space. I would think we're going to have some, I've got Jerry and Patty, they have things they need to join us. I can take care of some administrative presentations and hopefully fill in that time. We're most likely going to get some neighbors...they want to see it and that is one of the groups that installed their playground here last summer and they're very interested in coming back and working with...and their park's just about done. You can see it out there as you drive by on Powers. The grass needs to grow but all the beautiful trees went in last fall as a part of the Erhart tree donation of 1997. Down in the low end we did a lot of grading there but that's going to allow to grow back... I'd also like to take the opportunity to introduce Ed Neu. Ed is our...student with the department for the next 12 weeks and I'll let him go ahead and introduce himself and give him a little background. Give the commission a little background. Ed Neu: My name's Ed Neu and I'm a student at Mankato State University and this is the last requirement I need for graduation is a 12 week practicum. I chose Chanhassen for a couple of reasons. Todd had taught administration class last... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS: UPDATE OF RECREATION SECTION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Hoffman: ...as a part of the, there was a historic meeting, the Council and the planners met about the, they took all the historic downtown district. The Pauly's site. The Kenny's building. St. Hubert's and one of the Planning Commission members made a note, you know for all that area has to offer, there's really a limited amount...the Kenny's building is not important... However taking a look at the brick homes in our community that remain, the houses that we had along Lyman Boulevard in the agricultural that we have. She saw...and if we don't make an effort to get that into some kind of a formalized plan, they'll just... Manders: In some of the vein with some of the older homes south. Hoffman: They're included as a part of the plan initially. The one across the street, the architecture in that area of town. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Franks: That kind of fits in with our attempt to acquire open space to preserve the character of the community. Not only the historical aspects but also the geographic aspects of the kind of community that we live in. Howe: I was going to say the same thing. We need to be diligent, because once it's gone it's gone like many people have said. Hoffman: Other broad areas, it's going to make the planners really happy. We haven't said ballfield once yet. Manders: The things that I come back to are, specific issue and ! don't know how specific we want to get here but it's that whole Lake Ann, complete loop...area there I think has to be a real high... Roeser: A loop all the way around Lake Ann. Manders: Yeah...preserving that. Roeser: That's kind of been laying dormant for a long time. I thought at one time... Hoffman: I haven't heard that. I heard the story of the first City Park Director who almost had the previous owner's signature for an easement on there but it never happened. That was back. Roeser: Before Prince too, right? Hoffman: ...Prince is pretty well established in the property and it looks at least for some period of time that he's, the likelihood if it remains on the comprehensive plan, the likelihood that it's going to occur at any time. It remains on the comprehensive plan. We have it documented. We have the landform...natural separation between Prince's homestead and this property. There's a large wetland which runs north and south. In fact it's right on one of those photos Mike, and you can grab the photo...Lake Ann and Lake Lucy and you'll see this property... And if you look at t.hat, as you'll note, you'll see that large wetland that runs north and south separating this home from this woods and then just as you get up along Lake Lucy there's a narrow land bridge. It's no wider than this room. It's actually narrower than this room. That would allow the trail to pass only in that one area as you go between Lake Lucy and that wetland. It lays itself out perfectly for the loop around the lake and then the second loop which goes from the peninsula. It's actually not a peninsula, it goes all the way through, around the north side. The north and west side of Lake Lucy and out to Lake Lucy Lane. Talk about bringing in, you know miles into the city into a focal point, you know would bring people into that facility...and I heard talk about taking the trail easement along the interceptor as it went through the community... Sadly it's identified, if you take the comprehensive plan out today and look at that, it's identified as a trail corridor...but for reference we have the...this wetland corridor which starts right through here... and then this is some high ground in here but the wetland continues through the center and comes up and...so that wetland system separates the homestead from this wooded...trail that starts right here at the terminus of the property at Lake Ann and Mike Gorra. We need to go around Mr. 9 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Gorra's house and up through the development and back down and go down along the...and then it would continue to the north right through the.., or there's a little bench right down along the lake here which we could access through and this is that lot we're looking to acquire as part of the referendum. This property is currently owned by Steve and Nancy Dirks and they're interested in selling the property to the City. They don't want... Berg: Any other dreams? Thoughts? Manders: is there, you know for down the road...referendum type of activities to finance such things as, want to talk about the 101 trail north or Highway 41 trail. Probably park...maybe some local neighborhood, get some kind of dedication or acquisition out of the south end of the city. Hoffman: My only trepidation there is that you look at we're 18,000, go to 34 by the year 2020 and they're pushing us for more athletic field space today and they say Bandimere will make us happy but not for long and then we double our population...we need that one final piece of athletic park in this community. Focused a great deal on open space aspect, which I think it was due time. That's been very well received by the public but we still have the responsibility to do that last piece of open ground so that could be a... I think the only way to be successful on a community center is to set the land aside and so most likely through your reserve accounts over the next 4 or 5, 6, 7 years. You can set those dollars aside to acquire the lane and then you know go out for a referendum or a combination referendum, tax increment financing package, that's the only possible way to finance that future community center. If you go to them and you say, well we've got nothing. We don't have the land. We need a million and a half for that and you know 2 million for that and 10 million for the community center and it just doesn't look like you've been doing your work. And then anything that has to do with a golf course needs either revenue bonds, which can be sold by the City Council. They could go buy that thing today. Basic revenue bonds and not take it out to a referendum but that's unlikely that that would be done. So those kind of big picture items and trails, yeah completion of any future trail system... Manders: Are there other major links? Hoffman: There are other major links but we need to push a little bit more population out there I think and where also, Lyman will be a major link but that's to be completed as a part of the road. TH 41 would be a major link as soon as you...development north and south there gets filled in. And then allow one...but the TIF district in Hennepin County is assembling a financing package for that trail when the day comes. Roeser: ...highway. Hoffman: No. Roeser: I don't think any of us here are in favor of a temporary... Hoffman: No, they're not looking at that. 10 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Roeser: If it doesn't come with the highway, it's just going to have to wait. Hoffman: I think, I mean I didn't want to say the word referendum but if you include in this comprehensive planning document that the City should look at a referendum in 4 or 5 years. 4 or 5 years comes awfully fast. At least it was stated somewhere that that is the plan. Berg: ...the last one started. Franks: I think it's almost out of necessity going to need to be considered in 5 years. Whether we elect to do it or not but we're going to need to consider it. As we develop out our money coming in through development of the city is just going to keep going down. And prices for other things are just going to go up. We're looking at a community center, top end would be about $30 million? Hoffman: Top end, yeah. Franks: That's a pool and ice sheet and the whole. Hoffman: ...that'd be like a Plymouth. Bottom end, about $10 million. Manders: ...have one or is that part of Lifetime thing? Hoffman: Combination. 1 don't know if you saw, Chaska's also doing a joint venture with a tennis bubble. EIS Tennis... So they had the land available. If they came to Chanhassen, you would have no place to offer, I believe it's a dollar lease. They build the facility and then... Manders: Is there anything in the nature of youth development or anything for facilities in the city that, I don't know, I think that question.., you're talking down the road and I think more development and more population. Roeser: Does anybody really ever, I mean really discussed... It seems to me they flare up... I think by putting in park and rec facilities, you are addressing that. The kids hang out at the community center at Chaska. I think just developing something...tell kids where they have to go for one thing. Only the nerds go there. You know it's just kind of that type of attitude... Community center's a recreation facility. That's what you do. Hoffman: The Chamber of Commerce saw that today. The Chamber with the Mayor and council members did a round table. They asked the chamber members to identify areas of interest or areas that need attention in the future of Chanhassen and the youth in our downtown and their safety, protection, welfare, was one of the top goals. And what they see, you know this effect of the cinema, the commerce, the recreation center on the west end of town, the skate park in the center of town, they see that serving those needs. The youth would be well served with that kind of a combination...they can go from one to the next to the next. From the Chamber's viewpoint, they just want to cut down on loitering. Besides if kids have time, they're going to be 11 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 downtown but if they have activities as a destination, it's going to cut down on that in-between time at those... But you can wrap this up at any time. We can get on with Jerry and Patty. Berg: Let's go back to Program Reports. PROGRAM REPORTS: A. VIDEO LIBRARY. Dexter: I met with Bryan McGovern shortly after our last meeting...and together we came up with a few ideas of how we'd like to implement this. And as you can see on the flip side of the memo, it's a form that we are going to start with and we'll see how it goes and evaluate it... In our office we had talked a little bit about maybe initially we would start it out at the Rec Center, utilizing one of the rooms... Roeser: ...idea I think. That doesn't get used much. This week, did it get used at all? Ruegemer: Thursday. Dexter: ...however we do have a small... Roeser: It's a little harder to control out there too isn't it? Dexter: It would be one of those things where we would...adult supervision. Someone that could check out... Anyhow, Bryan and I are moving on this one and I also have been in touch with Frank Scott with the CAA and we will get them... Berg: We don't need a motion or anything do we for this one Todd? Hoffman: We should approve, kind of a joint venture. Berg: Anyone care to so move? Manders: I think what we're trying to do is just approve the venture with the...and as far as how you go about instituting it, is that still open or do we want to say is this warming house or whatever you want to call that facility. Or I don't know. Berg: Or we can just leave it open to Patty to facilitate whatever. Yeah. Manders: Okay. I would move that we formalize an agreement with the. Hoffman: All athletic association. Manders: The athletic association to put in place a video library. 12 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Berg: Is there a second? Howe: Second. Manders moved, Howe seconded to approve an agreement to create a video library at the Chanhassen Recreation Center. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried. B. DADDY-DAUGHTER DATE NIGHT. Dexter: More formal presentation on the Daddy-Daughter Date Night. In the past meetings we've heard...very successful. We went from one night in the past to offering two nights this year. And we almost doubled our numbers. Did a lot of the same as in the past. We did change the menu a little bit. All I can think is that next year we'll...changing and continue to offer two nights...I would welcome that. Otherwise we'll continue to offer it like we have been. Questions? Roeser: I just answered my own question. I was wondering what fathers did with more than one girl but obviously they bring more than one girl. 84 dads and 96 girls. Berg: Sounds like fun. I wish my daughters were younger. Manders: They don't want to go with you anymore? Berg: ...I can't blame them. Thank you Patty. C. FEBRUARY FESTIVAL. Dexter: It sounds like it was really a success. Ruegemer: Yeah, the commissioners that were down there I really appreciated again having all the help with the event. I really thought it was a lot of fun this year having it down at Lake Ann. Caught a lot offish, which is really exciting. Gave Fred something to do. Announcing all the fish. That was a lot of fun. You know a lot of the components were really fun this year. Some of the new events that we did put in...a lot better participation than what I anticipated... There were people looking for the ice rinks so depending on the weather and that next year, we certainly can implement that again. The Boy Scouts did a great job selling bait. That was a new addition...as a fund raiser. It really worked out good. You know they were prepared. Had enough bait...some better exposure. To increase their sales for next year. The dog sleds we did need to move off the lake here. Kind of the condition of the ice wasn't real conducive for having the dogs...by the swimming beach area. That area was a little bit crowded but it worked out to be a very good alternative for that. Bob didn't have to worry about hurting the dogs feet...jagged ice. That really worked out to be good...some revenue on that. The ice fishing contest, you can see the... 181 tickets. You can see the breakdown of adults and... You can see how many tickets we did sell at the event so really the bulk of the sales really discounted...so we can keep hoping... Some general comments. You know we're always looking for ways to improve 13 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 our...potentially move that contest up a week. Get away from some of that warm weather and there's other positives involved with. We can add some other type of fish categories. Potentially a smaller...and add children's age group for that. We're always thinking for new ways to make the event fun. And basically just look for just additional ways on how to eliminate some of the expenses with that. And then on the back side, just all the revenue and the expenses sheet. Does anybody have any questions? A commissioner asked a question. Ruegemer: The biggest was. Hoffman: The northern. Pound 2. Ruegemer: A pound 2 and the fish weighed at least 40 to 50 fish weighed and at least another 20 or 30 that were just thrown down the hole without weighing so we did catch. Thanks again to all the commissioners for being out there. Berg: The prize board went a lot smoother this time too. Ruegemer: Wasn't it nice? Berg: Oh, a lot less hectic...drew all the prizes at one time and then they posted them all at one time... Hoffman: You'll see as a part of our staff review we talked about the expense side of the column and as we fine tune this thing, we find people. They want to come out and fish. They want to come out for a couple hours and then they want to go home so we invest a great deal in set-up and their comfort while they're there and the publicity package and those are the areas you're going to see us cut back on. We're going to cut back on the publicity package. Cut back on the niceties...those areas once you get onto the ice. An attempt to reduce that cost to get us into that, more of a cost...revenue type of an equation. The cost overruns on here are covered by our sponsorship. I think we have that responsibility to attempt to fine tune these events to get them.., both memorable and fun but also wise investment of our dollars. So look for some change in those areas. Berg: ...I hate to see us get overly concerned about. It's a great opportunity for the community to get together. Hoffman: Many times when you look at, I analyze these events on a cost per person. If you take a look at our participants based on cost for the time they're there and you analyze all of our events kind of in that fashion. Especially events tend to be on the high cost side per individual and so that's generally the reason to spend that money on advertising. The larger the crowd the better the investment of your special event dollars. Berg: Jerry, do you want to do the Easter Egg Hunt? 14 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 D. EASTER EGG CANDY HUNT. Ruegemer: Yes, that'd be great. Easter Egg Candy Hunt's coming up in a couple-three weeks. April 11th and that's going to be at the Chanhassen Recreation Center. We have a new entertainer here. The Wonderful World of Woody. I think that should be entertaining. He has a wide variety of tricks and juggling and interaction with the crowd. Watch out Mike, we'll get you up there on stage juggling or something. It's a real interactive... I think that's really what people like. He'll do a half hour to 45 minutes.., outside, which should be better. We're about 2 to 3 weeks later this year than last year. It should be better for the condition of the area. Out there. The whole candy hunt itself up in that area so it should be a lot of fun. We're still looking for a few volunteers to help judge the coloring contest and egg decorating contest. If there's any commissioners up tonight that would like to decorate for that...let me know about that but the Boy Scouts going to help out again for that and they always do a great job. If the areas are, the ballfields and that are wet, not very good condition, we'll just do it on the hockey rink. Berg: Thank you sir. Go back to item 3. PRAIRIE KNOLL PARK: PHASE II PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Berg: Is there first of all anyone in the audience from this neighborhood that's here to address this issue or this recommendation? Audience: How much is the tax? Let's ship it to Wisconsin and drive there. Hoffman: 6 1/2% Bob. Big money. Bob, are you or another resident ready to go to work on installation? Bob: Just need to know. Hoffman: I'll send out the letter, timing... Okay, great. Berg: Commissioners comments or questions. Jim. Manders: The question I've had is, does this pretty much finalize this park now as far as development? Hoffman: Yes. Green grass would be nice. Manders: Yeah, beyond that. Hoffman: Beyond that, it's a neighborhood park. Very similar to the Galpin Boulevard Park. Very similar. Trail. Play area. Little open space. Fields. They waited a little bit. You know the 15 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 neighborhood matured until they were full and then once they came in and talked, discussed the project with the commission. Manders: I'm fine with this. Howe: This number fell within the budget, the proposed budget? Hoffman: This is in the referendum budget, yep. As identified in the referendum. Otherwise you wouldn't be seeing this second addition for probably a number of years so it fills up the park quickly. Howe: I like it. Fine with it. We've used Gametime before? Hoffman: This is their second piece of equipment in the city. They have one here at Prairie Knoll and then one across the street in Power Hill Park. And they've been successful in the past for solicitation...approval of the neighborhood play value. The amount of equipment they're offering. Berg: ...neighborhood and they're amenable to your suggestions and all that? We need a motion. Franks: I recommend that the commission authorize the acceptance of the proposal and let's see, and instruct the staff to work with the neighborhood on the installation and timing. Howe: I second. Franks moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission authorize acceptance of the proposal for Prairie Knoll Park and instruct staff to work with the neighborhood on the installation. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Manders: One last question on the swing set type stuff. That's not out there and I guess I didn't hear them talk about that. Berg: Those six swings? Manders: Yeah... Berg: Jim had a question first just before we leave this. Manders: The swing set. I didn't hear any comment on that in terms of, is that something that's going in with this? Hoffman: It was installed as Phase I. Manders: Oh, that's already there? Oh. 16 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Hoffman: Yeah, what you see there, it's hard to see the colors, but what you see there in black. Tire swing...swing and this phase I. Manders: Oh, so it's not a six thing the picture on our paper here shows like six different. Hoffman: Six place swing? Manders: Yeah. Berg: We'd certainly like to entertain your comments about Roundhouse Park. We have discussed it already. Audience: It was on the agenda for 7:30 so I guess... Berg: Sure. Sorry about that. It's on our agenda at, it was from 6:00 to 7:30. So you thought you were getting here at the tail end, !'m sorry. We wrapped it up early. Manders: Can't we still take comments? Berg: You can certainly have the floor. Audience: I'm just... I'm sorry. Hoffman: No problem. The issues regarding caution signs, or if you can just let us know. What xve talked about at the meeting was the priority playground for this summer. Right in this location. The second priority would be the improve the looks of the roundhouse. After that, the site will be seeded and so we'll grow some green grass and install some landscaping...part of the seeding... Asphalt trails wilt be completed. Inside of those trails you'll see green grass areas. In the outside perimeter of the park on the west and the north you'll see natural grasses...go in just after the first of June...future phases would be the second phase of playground. Any potential basketball path, the volleyball will most likely just cut in as a part of the last... Then there was some issues raised by the neighbors at the meeting. Additional crosswalk signs here for caution. ...ability to clear the sidewalks along Kings Road, the narrow sidewalks...plow this trail with a pick-up truck and we can't take that pick-up up the sidewalk. The necessity to install the fence in this area for the drop-off here and we'll take a look at that... Half court basketball which I mentioned and then again, talking to the neighborhood about installing the equipment at about $3,000.00 to the value so...neighborhood installation, we don't have to pay a crew to come out there and install it... Phase I which would be the 5 to 12 age group... They were identified per Phase I playground and the roundhouse building. And we're going to, that money will run... Audience... 17 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Hoffman: Well the next meeting would be to engage the neighborhood...so selection of the equipment and then discussion about installation. So in about 5 weeks... I'll let them answer that. Berg: I'm not sure I exactly understand the question. Audience... Berg: The discussion basically centered around what the plan has been decided. What they talked about doing there but basically we're just looking at that plan. We didn't even have to okay it at this point. It was just a reaffirmation of what they'd already been discussing. Audience... Franks: Did you have a question or concern? Audience: Yeah I do. I have a concern about the play area, and I'm not sure this is the right forum to. Hoffman: Sure it is. Audience: ...my understanding from the area, and I live in the Highlands... and there are so many children below that age group...0 to 5 there are and ! think... ! do understand the need and I was...last year for the park...but when the referendum went through I think there were... That's a general comment... Franks: But what our understanding is, as far as the round house itself goes, we're going to be looking at just pretty much preservation work on it right now. Fixing the roof, or the exterior as far as completing the, or architecturally, that's also...development than what we're looking at here. Audience... Hoffman: Approximately $25,000.00 to the Phase I playground and approximately $15,000.00 to the preservation of the roundhouse. $15,000.00, what you just saw in this example. The first phase at this park, Prairie Knoll, $25 and then the second was $15. Manders: There are certainly other parks in the city where we're in the process of discussing putting in a shelter... With this already being there, just to preserve it so it doesn't fall apart too far down the road and that's part of our problem. If we don't do something now and divert those monies, then we're in trouble... Audience: Yeah, I can understand and I can appreciate that. I drive by it 3-4 times a day and it is an eyesore and it is worth preserving...an area within the Highlands... 18 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Berg: Maybe a couple of things too. It's unfortunate that your neighborhood didn't get more involved because we've been operating under the assumption, based on the feedback we're getting, that the extensive use or there'd be more use from the 5 to 12 year olds. That's what we're basing a lot of these decisions on is the input we've had from the community. That's spilled milk. There's nothing we can do about that and this next thing, don't interpret it as any kind of promises but because of the referendum we've been able to improve or shove up or move up our improvement of the neighborhood park. So in a non-referendum time we couldn't give you much hope at all as to when Phase I..but perhaps it will come in sooner than it normally would. Certainly we can't commit as to it will be in there but...but it might not be as long a wait than it normally would be. Audience: ...I'11 let everybody know and...you've been really good about sending out the notices. I'll just let...thank you. Berg: Thank you for coming in. Audiencc: Thank you for repeating it. Hoffman: Probably go over the Admin Section. Berg: Okay. Then it will be 8:00. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET: Berg: Any questions or comments about the, anything contained in the administrative section? Hoffman: Tennis courts at Bandimere. I've not heard a reply from the Bershows. These goals, the first page, I'll incorporate those with the comments you've made this evening and then we'll bring those back for a final approval as a part of the comprehensive plan process so just so you know those are... Manders: This fishing thing on Lake Susan. We had a fishing... Hoffman: Yeah, lots of carp. You'll notice two resignations from the Recreation Center in here. There's five really in the last two months and we've notified the Council that they will be seeing recommended changes in that position classification or that employee structure at the recreation center. What we've been able to identify, at least initially is that it's really the lack of full time status, that temporary status that is driving the individuals away. It doesn't seem to center on compensation. It doesn't center on the environment. It doesn't center on the...it's just a simple fact that this is a great place to get experience and then to apply for other full time jobs. They say, oh you've been working at the Recreation Center for a year and a half. That's exactly what we're looking for is experience in that area. We can offer you a full time status. Give you the same benefits that Chanhassen was and... Berg: And we just can't afford to do that? 19 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Hoffman: We can't afford turnover at that level, no. Five employees in a two month period. The money we're saving in salaries, we're losing in...training and a whole variety of different areas. We're talking, go ahead Patty. Dexter: I just want to add...one person that's been there for...and everyone else, we're now sitting with less than...fortunate so far I believe that we haven't had a lot of problems come up... Berg: You're spending all your time training. Hoffman: Yeah, and hiring. Dexter: And I'm also taking back a lot of the projects...been able to give to the staffout there... that I think I should be able to give to the staff out there. I now have to take back so that I know... Roeser: So what you're saying is you need more full time people? Dexter: I really, yes. Roeser: ...the Council... Hoffman: Well they believe in managing money so we'll present that as a part of the 1999 budget. Patty, other issues with the recreation center monthly report? Dexter: No, that was...kind of where my staff is now...I'm struggling. I have no applicants to even call in and interview. I've even gone the route of bringing in a company to do my... It's just something I'm going to have to try and work through... With that aside, we have introduced credit card service out at the Rec Center in addition to over here at City Hall. I think the Rec Center, we did receive quite an impact from credit card registration...more so than... Otherwise I think we're just trying to keep our head above water. Berg: Okay, thank you. KERBER POND PARK: TRAIL IMPROVEMENTS AND SIGNAGE. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on these items. Paul Page: Kerber Pond is a...situation that Todd mentioned. It exists right here off of Kerber Boulevard. The handout I gave you addresses a solution to that problem... The situation as it exists today... 15 and 20 feet of grade drop coming up a little and the bottom of the trail and the washout really serves... 15 feet of that. The water currently is exposing a lot of the tree roots in this area...step down that hillside instead of just kind of... At the same time channeling the water to the side of that trail to a... Then the other issue related to this... We talked about paving this section down this hillside. Two problems with that. One is it is extremely steep and it's turning, 20 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 and also the fact that it would lend people to believe that there's a... Questions on that or comments? Manders: I guess wasn't there something like that on the other end? Some type of a number of riser thing? Hoffman: Again another Boy Scout project dating 10 years back where it was timber risers and a different configuration made out of, constructed out of railroad ties and the issue we had there was the means by which it was secured was a re-rod material which was becoming, turned into a hazard because the ties were rotting away and that was taken out at that point. Paul Page: ...infinite life span to it... Manders: What would you envision as far as the link between the one riser to the next? Paul Page: This is shown...natural grades. Just sort of scaling offthe...the existing slope... Manders: I guess I wasjust wondering if this is a good... Berg: Should we entertain questions from the audience for each individual I think? Hoffman: Yes, and then l'd also encourage, one reason we get together with the neighborhoods is to allow for comment on any other issues that you want, that you wish to discuss about any of the parks. Berg: At this time I'll open it to questions about Kerber Pond Park and the changes there, or as Todd said, any other comments you might like to make as far as other developments. We will be getting to all three. If you have comments or questions, could you please come up here to the podium and state your name and address for the record. Greg Havlik: Hello. My name is Greg Havlik. I live on 630 Conestoga Trail which is just · adjacent to Kerber Park here. Two concerns I have with the stairs. I like the idea of the timber stairs. There's a lot of kids that slide in that area during the winter. The other steepness of the hill along the trail there, it's a little too steep for the younger kids. It was kind of nice, they could get introduced to sliding in that area. The 3 to 10 inch fieldstone for the water on the side there. The 10 inch would be hopefully down underneath and the 3 inch on top again for if the kids are sliding there, they're not going to crash into larger boulders and get hurt. Being that the slope of the hill there and with the treads laid out the way they are, hopefully the kids will still be, won't be shoveled and plowed and the kids can slide down there and also for cross country skiing, keeping a nature trail around there would be nice because I know myself and a lot of other people use it for that during the winter and this kind of a trail would still facilitate that kind of activity. The bridge, it makes a nice natural setting to the park. We really lost a nice bridge that was over where the outlet structure is. The...that was there ! guess was aerating and then with the kids walking to school, they want to be able to plow that so they could walk or ride their bikes there. I guess that was an improvement before and I know a lot of people were not happy with the 21 Park & Rec Commission Meeting- March 24, 1998 change that occurred there but at least we had the bridge on the other end of the pond. If we could keep that. Maybe I believe it was a Boy Scout project that the Boy Scouts, so if we need to widen it or do something different there, maybe go back to them and ask them with some changes or try to get some volunteer work to help keep the bridge there, if that does need to be changed so the mowers can get over it. That's my comments. Berg: Okay, thank you. Hoffman: Greg, could you point out where they're currently sliding Greg. Are they sliding in the vicinity of the steps or is it farther to the south in the park? Greg Havlik: The existing trail that comes down. Hoffman: Oh, so they slide in there? Greg Havlik: Just slide right down that walkway right now, yeah. Hoffman: Okay. Greg Havlik: Yeah, and the better kids can make the comer and make it all the way down to the bottom of the road to the pond... Hoffman: The sliding I was familiar with is over at this. Greg Havlik: Right. The bigger kids go over there and a lot of them, but the smaller kids who aren't quite brave enough, because there's a pretty steep drop and then it flattens out right away. And they'll go down the area there that's kind of... Berg: Well do you want to comment on the stone, so they won't be hitting these stones as they're coming down or whatever. Paul Page: Yeah, I don't know how the commission feels but I have reservations about promoting sliding in general in that area if we develop the stairs. Not only the stones. The comers of those risers and things. It seems like there's a lot of hillside in this community that it wouldn't have to conflict that closely. I appreciate the fact that the kids do slide there. It's just unfortunate that the corridor is so narrow through there. The rip rap will have to be of a scale that will hold that hillside so I'd like to put smaller stuff in there. We could have...to see how small it could get. Perhaps it could support a sliding chute. I just have never really prepared those up that tight... Maybe there's another spot on that hillside you could find. Berg: Other comments regarding Kerber Pond. Debra Olafson: Hi, I'm Debra Olafson and I live at 761 Sierra Trail. I live right on Kerber Pond and my main concern was, and I was always going to call you about this Todd was, I'm concerned there's a lot of milfoil in the pond. We have our paddle boat that we go out there and 22 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 since that water drainage has changed on the east side, since you took that bridge out, we've seen a real problem with weeding on that end. Terribly. So I don't know if that made a difference or what but itjust seems like it's filling up. Like it's going to be a bog in a couple years or something. And the other thing is, I love the bridge. We live right across from the bridge and we love the bridge so it would be a great idea if the Boy Scouts could widen that. And if there ever is anything around the pond, a trail would be awful I think but I'd maybe go with woodchips only. Something more natural that way but not tar or anything. Okay, thanks. Berg: You won't get blacktop. It's not going to happen. Mike Roberts: Hi, my name's Mike Roberts. I live at 7218 Frontier Trail and I had a couple concerns regarding security of the pond down there. I've noticed in the last year or so, since the blacktop was installed, that a lot of kids are hanging out down there. I personally witnessed myself drinking, doing drugs, a lot of littering and it'd be nice to see some trash cans down there and a little bit more security. Have somebody roll through there and kick the kids out of there when they're just hanging out loitering. And I didn't know if anything was proposed for that or not for the park. I have called the City a couple times, a few times. I think I spoke with you and we talked and I didn't know if anything was going to be done regarding that or not. Berg: Okay, thank you. Hoffman: Fred, I'll back up first to the previous speaker. The milfoil in the pond is a, unfortunately a way of life here now in the south metro and in the Minnetonka milfoil triangle that we have going on here. And the introduction to this pond is so prevalent due to the shallow edges of the pond. You know the pond really never gets much deeper than 12 or 14 feet so you have a lot of shallow edges and it just takes a strong hold on that area. But north as well, it's not nearly as pretty or is it appealing to walk around that particular corner because it just kind of masses out. Not a lot we can do about that. It's a real big debate over treating milfoil in our recreational lakes and in a natural resource setting like this, ! don't think treating the milfoil. The bridge, we can live without removing the bridge. It's not at it's end of it's life cycle just yet. It is repaired routinely, both by the city and the Boy Scouts who originally put it in as it is vandalized on occasion. So that, if the commission elects to...we can certainly live with that. Security and Mr. Roberts and I have talked in the past and I've been working with our public safety department discussing issues that we have down in there. They've been again taking issue with some of the trees and tearing those trees and busting down the trees in the vicinity of the trail. The trash was an issue and the neighbors pick up a great deal in this park on their own and we appreciate that. We installed a trash barrel at that location and for a period of time and then it continued to end up in the pond and so now we've gone to putting those at either entrance to the pond in that location. I've talked to the youth in that area. Carrie Knowlan, our public safety... has talked to the youth and reported to me on her conversations there. But it's a convenient area for hanging out after school so we'll attempt to keep tabs on it and continue to appreciate the intervention by the neighborhood as well. They're there more than we could ever be. Berg: We'll entertain some commissioner comments at this point or questions. Michael, I think it's time to start with you. 23 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Howe: Thank you. I'm hearing keep the bridge the way it is. That seems to me, I haven't really seen it but it sounds like it's a nice bridge and people like it. If we can keep it, we should keep it. The sledding bothers me. Kids will be kids. I don't know how to mediate that or make the edges softer. But that seems to be a problem. I'd like to hear some more commentary on that. The trash cans, it seems like if we can work on our efforts with our own public safety people. Check on who's loitering down there, that would be fine but those are basically my comments. Berg: Rod. Franks: Well I'm glad to hear they're going to use...materials because I was thinking boy, that kind of...but I like the idea that the project is going to control the runoff and the erosion that's taking place on that. I understand the commentary about the kids wanting to slide. If it's a pattern of behavior, that might be difficult for them to change to find a more safe place to really do that but I don't know if it will take...real appealing place to be sliding if it means running into that riser as you're going down the hill so I'm hoping that may be with some parental involvement that they'll be able to find a more secure place to do their sledding. I just kind of think that putting the stairways is an important development here for the whole trail. I'm glad that we're going to be keeping the trail in it's more natural state. If there's a way to save that bridge, although I did have a question about how do they mow now? Do they just come in...and then go back around? If the bridge itself is still in good condition...I think I would be in favor of maintaining the bridge. Berg: Ron. Roeser: I don't really have any comments. I'm glad you're going to save the bridge if they can... I do think that there's enough hill there so that if they do...stairway down, that you can find another place for a little, it's an awfully big area. There's lots of hills there and I think you probably...it will be safe. And that's about all. Manders: The picnic tables and things that are on top, that kind of overlook this area, is there anything in that regard? Or do they get used a lot or is there improvements that we could make there at all or is that? Hoffman: I don't see the neighborhood using them. I see cars parking there at lunch hour on occasion. Along Kerber...in that area. Roeser: You'd probably rather not have picnic tables down in that area. Hoffman: Down below, no. No. Up above is the location there. Manders: And there was talk, I don't know, a year or two ago about bluebirds and all that. You know the houses there. Are those still? 24 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Hoffman: They're there and maintained and a local resident of Carver Beach... Manders: Lots of birds? Hoffman: Yeah, the bluebird count is pretty good in there. There's also an area resident that... bluebird houses along there. There's a duck and goose nesting station that is used every year so. Manders: Is there a culvert that connects to the other side going through there? Hoffman: Across Kerber, yes. Manders: Is that just a waterway or that isn't a walkable? Hoffman: it's a waterway. It used to be a cattle crossing but that was closed. You can still see the... That was past year before it was the Kerber Pond and you can still see the cow trails along the edge of the hill so. Berg: I don't have anything other to add either except I think I'll make it unanimous in ten-ns of saving the trail. Or the bridge, excuse me. It's consistent with what we've been talking about. Do you want a motion for each individual? Hoffman: However you'd like to do it. Did we finish comments? Berg: Oh I'm sorry. Yes, we certainly are. Jackie Lochman: My name is Jackie Lochman. I live at 751 Sierra Trail, also on Kerber Pond. I'd just like to add my support for keeping the bridge also. I think it's very nice, especially after losing the other one. I just have a couple questions. When we moved in, I'm looking for some clarification. When we moved in I believe we had to sign or received a paper about the conservation area that was around the pond so I was wondering how the different things are being able to be done. We're told as residents we're not able to do anything from the hillside down all the way to the pond. So I don't know that, and I've also been told that by new neighbors that move in, that they're never given this conservation type paper. I don't have it with me so I don't remember what it's called exactly. The other question I had, so I'm wondering if you can do improvements like this with the conservation area. And the other thing is, I was wondering about, I believe it's called the comprehensive plan for the city or parks. What is included in that, because I'm told that whatever is included in that will eventually come to be and long ago I had heard there would be asphalt paving, parking lots, different things put so that's my question. Berg: I can't speak for the commission but maybe I will anyway. Except for the second part, over our dead bodies. Todd, maybe you can address the first issue. Hoffman: Well let's finish the asphalt and the parking lots. The original master plan for this site, it's on this plan that you have on the board...parking just off of Kerber with the intent of 25 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 allowing off street parking...potential future development of Kerber Pond Park. Also included is the trail connection up to the cul-de-sac which is currently not in place, at least in a formal fashion... With the exception of those two potential future improvements, the plan is pretty well... Then going back to the conservation area or easement. I don't want to take a look at the documents that they are receiving as homeowners...our planners and environmental resource coordinator have gone back about the...there's such a varied number format for conservation easements. Some talk about trees no smaller than, or no larger than 4 inches can be disturbed. So there's a variety of... and that would be, those easements would be for the homeowners association or the area itself and not necessarily for the public open space... Berg: Are there any other public comments about Kerber Pond Park? Is anyone on the commission interested in forming a... I would assume to include things like the preservation of the bridge. And moving ahead of the proposed... Manders: I'd move that we put in the stairway with the riser configuration discussed in the efforts to correct the washout and to preserve the bridge. Berg: A second? Roeser: I'll second that. Manders moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the trail improvements, including restoring the stairway and bridge for Kerber Pond Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Hoffman: Before we leave I don't want anyone to get the impression, the City and the commission manages park as a natural resource preserve. So the development which we do is minimal, just in the name of allowing access in some reasonable manner to the park by that habitat that is there. The receptacles which are traditionally maintained in the park are just at the top of the hill at this location and then down. We'd like to have them out at the front but it's not very convenient for these two homeowners...these end up in this location of the pond more often than not. The kind of the hang out started to be right at the intersection of these two trails. That's where I spoke to the youth and have picked up garbage and then there was a stake put there with one of the blue poly barrels...but it still ended up in the pond so in talking with public safety and our park maintenance division...the barrel itself became vandalized and became a target so. Audience: They will end up in the pond. Hoffman: Yeah, in this location we chain it to a post which...should come up with a more permanent solution...but there is more trash taken out of this park... I hear about it and I see it all the time so I'll take... Berg: Haven't there been attempts made with the school too to make that a project in terms of. 26 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Hoffman: Adopting it. Keeping it clean of trash and... Historically there were some tree plantings out in this location which the residents will note...fairly large birch, river birch now and some pine trees which were planted...and that's been some 10 or 11 years ago. About 90% of those were cut up by...and then the Girl Scouts came in on this side of the park. Pine trees and then deciduous trees and planted them all in those tubes which were much more successful... 80% success rate. And then a second troop came down and removed the majority of the tubes and put wire mesh...the name of preserving this area and protecting it. When you take a look at this.., throughout this area, woody vegetation has a difficult time establishing itself along that grass.., there were some trees taken out, cleared out in this area right in this ravine after some grading and so we're attempting to re-establish those... Berg: Okay. Any other questions? Resident: ...trees on the front, a lot of them have Dutch elm disease and I was told by a tree specialist from the city that we can cut them down, and I know sometimes some of our neighbors have cut them down and then we've gotten calls, don't cut that many trees. But they were earmarked Dutch elm and the city doesn't cut them down, right? I mean they're right in our easement and so we cut some of those little scrub ones down .... not a lot of them, but.just the bad ones. Hoffman: Yeah, they need to go out. Anybody who wants to talk about trees... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Berg: I know it's a pain too but I'd encourage you to keep calling public safety too and... Franks: Todd I'm wondering, like we're doing with the Herman Field neighborhood group about what...public safety and securing our parks a little bit more. Would this be also a neighborhood to include in that effort also? Hoffman: A question to ask the neighborhood. Two weeks ago we...Herman Field park and · they're having problems well beyond what we're seeing here. What they've elected to do is... These neighborhoods are separated to some degree and so perhaps it could be a Kerber Pond watch instead of a neighborhood watch...talk about that. But we would need some indication from the neighbors that they would be interested in that and then again another employee of the City, Beth Hoiseth who is the Crime Prevention Specialist...but initially to start that we need some indication of interest .... we'll pass it onto Beth. We'll sit down. Formulate a neighborhood letter and if it materials or not. And what that does for the neighborhood is say that it's okay to call in when you see that type of activity and what it says on our end is that, the officials have...and they brief the public safety people, the deputies and so when the call comes in they go, oh. That's a neighborhood watch or park watch up at Chanhassen or Kerber Pond. We've been briefed on that...access point. They kmow what they're going to encounter when they get there...deputies work the entire Carver County area and many times Kerber Pond Park... great way to get more bang for your buck if you will. 27 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Manders: Just thinking about this garbage thing, and maybe this side of the circle thing. Does it have to be a barrel? Can it be more of a permanent ground structure that's maybe not something that you're going to pick up and dump it but a place to contain garbage and it can be shoveled out of it. A concrete structure or something that they aren't going to pick up and throw in the pond. You know is there something like that, if we're looking for a place to contain garbage as opposed to having... Hoffman: I hesitate from going underground. I would look to a concrete permanent above structure which has a liner which you can pull out at some location. What you typically do is pour about a 4 x 4 pad. Put the concrete structure which is mounted directly to that concrete pad and then there's a liner... Make an investment, long term investment of $1,500.00 for a container... Trash is typically a 6 or 7 or 8 month type of issue down at this location. This winter you could have picked up trash... Audience: ...groups that are having their fun down in there and leaving...even more fun. Anchoring it down is just going to make them think harder on how to destroy it. Not really, I think most people can bring anything... Berg: Any other last questions? I saw a hand back there. Yes ma'am. A question was asked from the audience which was not heard on tape. Hoffman: What I would propose to do is investigate the content of that easement and then formulate a mailing list that goes all the way around the lake would be affected. I'll sit down with Jill Sinclair, the Environmental Resource Coordinator and our planners who have been dealing with that issue throughout the year on the park. We'll take a look at some of the history and then draft a letter or response out to the neighbors talking about from the city's perspective, what's permitted. What's not. Can diseased trees be removed? Do they have to contact the City before they do those type of activities? And then talk about what affect those easements have on the park itself. And we'll go ahead and take the initiative to assemble that letter, newsletter type of format and mail it out to those residents. Berg: Does that answer your questions? Audience: Yes. Berg: Any other questions before we move on to Stone Creek. Paul, do you want to inform us about Stone Creek Park, trail with bridge. STONE CREEK PARK: PARK TRAIL WITH BRIDGE. Paul Page: Well the creek, if you're not familiar with the park, Stone Creek Court. There is a play area...and a half court basketball...in this direction. The creek which shows up on the map meandering through here.., there's a lot of topography and as you get near the creek, it's more of 28 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 a gorge... portion... The other option would be to scale down the nature of the path...down the steep grade Berg: Is there anyone in the audience who would care to discuss or have comments or questions regarding the proposed bridge? Bonnie Juack: Hi. I'm Bonnie Juack. I live at 2246 Stone Creek. I live in the...right here. A couple things. First of all I want to thank Todd and his crew for the wonderful work and responses that they've done to, live right next to the park. They've been really helpful and did a great job in completing Phase I of that park. My feeling, the biggest need we have is the size of the park as it is right now. Right now...but we only have four swings. A tire swing and a small area for 2 to 5 year olds. We have 144 families alonejust in Stone Creek. The park pulls from Stone Creek, the Oaks, Timberwood and now Creekside which is further down, wrapping around it. I would rather see the money spent on these two other parks. We at sometimes have 55 kids trying to play on a little slide, four swings like I said. We have nothing for the older kids, 5 and above. We have picked out that equipment but as Todd can tell you, half of that park is empty because we don't have the equipment. We counted one time 55 kids trying to play on equipment for ages 2 to 5. That means two little slides and a climbing tube. They have the basketball court but that kind of gets you down to really a couple kids. I would rather see that stay natural. That is all woods. It is a beautiful lot. I live next to the existing trail right here. We call it treacherous. The neighbors who live at the end here keep bandaids handy because it is a steep hill. I don't know if you've seen that. It's wicked. It is not a flat, it just shoots straight down and it goes over tree roots. Unfortunately the developer, our developer put it in. They just kind of blacktopped over roots and so we've had kids hit trees going down this trail. They keep bandaids down there because there are numerous kids who are hit. Hit trees and wipe out. People don't even, very few people come up the hill because if you were walking, pushing strollers or kids are riding their bikes, the parents are carrying the bikes and the kids up this hill. To pave the rest of that I think is, you're just throwing money away because the best way to get to the park is to come down the street. The trail that is existing there is virtually useless. It's too steep to go down it. It's too steep to come up it so to connect the rest of that white trail asphalt, I don't know. I think the monies could be used completing the rest of the park. I'd invite you to come out and see what you think. Patty, or the Park Rec person, we had a huge attendance of kids who came to the summer program that Park & Rec offered. It was just wonderful. It's just that we don't have anything for those kids to do and I fear, we don't want to run into the Kerber Park problem where we have just kids hanging out. We still have a small neighborhood so I would like to see the trail stay natural and use the monies that are allocated for it to finish the park Phase II. Unfortunately the equipment's picked out. It's just not in the budget ! guess. The other concern I have, the trail that comes up the hill goes directly into the street so when the kids do finally walk it, their bikes up to the top of the hill, they're quick to get on that bike to shoot out into the street, but we...goes out into the street. Kids are so quick to get to the park they ride, they drive out into the street and...that would be my other request. We also need a yellow caution sign. There's nothing saying that you are approaching a park area, or caution. There are no sidewalks also, which is not uncommon in Chanhassen, but with no sidewalks there are 35 children who live just in those, just on Stone Creek going east. We have no sidewalks. There are bikes and little kids running and parents are supervising the best they can but because we have 29 Park & Rec Commission Meeting ~ March 24, 1998 Stone Creek Drive, Road, Court, Lane, East and West, we have lots of delivery people who are upset because trying to find where they need to go and it's right on the curve. So a caution sign would be helpful also. But if we could use that money for the park versus a paved trail, that would be nice to keep it natural. It's a really nice wooded area. Thank you. Berg: Next please. Linda Jack: My name is Linda Jack and I live at 2209 Lukewood Drive and that's in the Oaks which isn't really pictured on here but it's like towards this end where... And I have a couple of comments. One is that, what isn't really pictured here is where that trail spills out and just as she was mentioning that, on her end, it spills out into the street. In the Oaks there are no sidewalks and this trail would spill into the street again and it really would just parallel what is a sidewalk on Galpin with good trail markers and crosswalks and things so I just wonder if it's maybe a little bit redundant and it's not really that safe because you're just going to be taking people out into the middle of the street and the kids or whatever. The other thing is, this topography is extremely steep back there. It is a ravine and number one, I question you know what impact it would have to actually construct the trail, put the bridge in, etc, let alone maintain it. And also what affect erosion would have because it's very, very steep back there. I just wonder how you could really put something in without it either having a big impact on the environment or being able to maintain it properly. And you mentioned what the budget was just for the bridge but I was wondering what the overall budget was. I too would rather see something else bubble up to the top, say an expansion at the Rec Center with some more equipment in there or something like that. I'd rather see it bubble up to the top as opposed to something like this so those are my comments. Tom Kehjan: My name is Tom Kehjan. I live at 8278 Benwood Circle and as she commented, your map here does not show the impact on the neighborhood at the other end of this particular trail, which is the Oaks. It's a neighborhood of about 24 homes or so. I live at the outlet for this trail in the Oaks. In other words the other end of this trail going from the park into Benwood Circle literally goes right through my front yard. And as a matter of fact I just moved two weeks ago. Just built a new home and I've only been in there two weeks. I was not even aware of this meeting tonight until just a day or so ago when I spoke to Todd about 4:00 this afternoon. So my comments are rather ad hoc as opposed to having thought this out a great deal but ! have known that the trail stub was there for some time and I guess my central question is, what is the purpose of the trail linking a rather small neighborhood of 24 homes with no outlet from that neighborhood? In other words, this trail is not a link or a vital link in an overall trail system. It's practically speaking just simply connecting two neighborhoods is all it's doing. And one of a rather small nature of only 24 homes and another one, Stone Creek of around 140 homes I believe I heard mentioned. Have any of you walked through this particular property? You have? Anybody else? It's a rather, as you know, it's a rather dense. It's a beautiful forest area if you will that there's deer that live in there. There's a lot of wildlife. There's a beautiful little creek that winds through it and it's about 7 acres I believe and I've just got to wonder what the overall purpose of linking through this 7 acres to two different neighborhoods is when you have a sidewalk system that nearly parallels it out on Galpin Boulevard. A very fine sidewalk that if someone wanted to go from one neighborhood to the other as it is, you simply go down to Galpin 30 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 and walk the sidewalk. On either end of it there is not another trail link to that. You're immediately into the city street. In Benwood Circle and then the other end right near the park. So I guess I don't quite see the, I heard some of the earlier comments about trash problems created in parks. About loitering. About young people. This particular park, and it's seclusion it provides, would seem to me to be an ideal attraction for teenagers. You put a bridge back there. You've got a little creek and it's a perfect secluded attraction area for teenagers and all of the problems that that brings and that I've heard earlier. But for what purpose? It's not a link in the trail system. It's simply connects two neighborhoods. So I've got great concern about centrally what the purpose is and again some of the earlier comments about can the money be better spent. And for those of you that haven't looked at the property first hand, I would encourage you to do so because I personally don't see the benefit of running an asphalt trail and a bridge across this particular creek, just to connect our neighborhood to a playground. Craig Evans: I'm Craig Evans and I live at 8281 Benwood and my first question is, I guess one of procedure. Is there a vote to be taken tonight as to whether or not this will be constructed or is this for a discussion of whether it should be constructed? What's the outcome this evening? Berg: I think we will be deciding whether or not we want to go forward with the bridge. Craig Evans: Okay. I have to mirror the comments we've heard earlier. Being a resident of the Oaks, there really isn't, at least from our perspective, that much need to connect our neighborhood over to Stone Creek and if there was the need for more opinions similar to ours from the Oaks, we'd be willing to petition the neighborhood and draw those opinions to, I'm pretty sure show you that it is not something that would appeal to them. It's not something they like. I think primarily the biggest issue is the Oaks is nice and it's secluded. There's no need to connect it to the larger neighborhood. The security issue is a very, very deep concern because where with Kerber Pond the authorities could at least see some of the kids out there, back in that area, since it is so, it is such a ravine, you could do a lot of some illegal things, some illegal activities underneath that bridge back in that area. I was that age once. I think I could come up with a thing or two. But I'd definitely like to go on the record of saying there are better ways to spend that money. Perhaps Phase II of the park over in Stone Creek is a great idea. The trail is not needed. It is redundant and it would most likely create, in addition to being difficult to construct, it would most likely create more problems than anything it would solve because at this point we really don't see what it would be solving. Thank you. Kevin O'Brien: My name is Kevin O'Brien. I live at 2201 Lukewood Drive in Chanhassen and I don't want to be redundant but I would like to echo some of the comments you've heard from some of our neighbors. I very much question the wisdom of spending the kinds of money that we're certain to spend on this particular project for the cost benefit ratio there. I know there's a big issue with the city and wanting to save the trees and I think you can imagine, based on the comments we've had, the kind of topography we're talking about here. We're talking about hundreds of trees would have to be taken down. We talked about some erosion problems that you would have in other park areas in the city. You can only guess as to what the erosion issues would be in that area as well. In addition to that, I think there is a very large safety issue here again as echoing some of the comments that have been made earlier. This is a very dark and 31 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 secluded area. We have a small neighborhood and I don't really see any need to, and my goal here is not to be elitist in any way, shape or form but I'm very reluctant to have a situation where I'm not actually connecting two trail systems together but I'm essentially taking a trail system and then craving the path into our neighborhood and then dumping it there because once you push it into our neighborhood, you're just onto our city street. You're not onto a path because you're in their, people will not necessarily know which way to go and now we've got all that additional traffic in our area. I think there's some very large safety concerns there as well, as well as just the overall cost and believing that those dollars could be better spent elsewhere. Thank you. Berg: Thank you. Are there other comments? Audience: ...who would personally...get a chance to walk through... Some of your earlier comments about... Franks: As a commission we visited that property last summer. We didn't go all the way down into the ravine or anything. Berg: AT this point we'll entertain commission comments and questions. Jim I believe it's time to start with you. Manders: Is it? I'm not going to stand up and say that I want the bridge. Quite frankly it wasn't something that I would have said that I wanted to begin with. I'm not sure of where the idea came from originally. Certainly it was an idea. It isn't something that's a foregone conclusion and the feedback that we're getting is certainly the purpose of having this discussion. So you aren't talking a tidal wave I think, at least in my mind, that this has to go in. And I would agree with your comments that, particularly with the Galpin trail being relatively close and the shortage of funds and certainly other options that we have to spend them. ! would certainly be in favor of that so I would say you know, don't do the bridge and look at other options. Berg: Okay, thank you. Ron. Roeser: I agree with Jim about this. If that's not an important connection to a whole trail system, it's something we can certainly look at and... Berg: Jan? Roeser: I find a $40,000.00 a little scary too. You know by the time we built it and. Hoffman: As did staff and that's why we looked at the two alternatives. Lash: I think just to let you know how I think the original feeling was, the purpose. You have to admit it would be a totally different experience than walking along Galpin Boulevard. That trail.., much more natural experience...walking along Galpin on the sidewalk. So that was the original intent to provide an option for people who live there and I think the other original intent 32 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 was to give the people of Royal Oaks easy access to the park because you do not have a neighborhood park within your development. I think those were the original intentions. who live there don't want it and I'm not sure... People Hoffrnan: No. Lash: I would imagine within the next two years but you know we just have this issue. We're just having...wetland on the other side of Galpin and we're firmly united in our feeling that we didn't want to see that happen so... So just to let you know, I think that the original intent was. That's what my first comments were but I'd certainly be willing to put the money... Berg: Okay, Rod. Franks: It sure is pretty there. You know I'm sitting here thinking when we first got...talked about how much it would cost. Wouldn't that be a really exciting kind of geographic feature for people to experience. Being up over the ravine and kind of having that kind of view shed and nature area. It'd be a unique feature in our city that we really, that I can't believe we have anything like that anywhere else. But I'm not interested in putting in a $40,000.00 bridge and the type of work that would need to go in to bring in a cement truck and crane through the woods either. It was...hear the commentary today because my assumption too would have been a nice way to connect the neighborhood to the park, but if that's not what people are interested in, I think we need to hear that and we did hear that. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Berg: Yeah, I think we hear you. We can't at this point make any comment as to what we would prefer to do because we don't have the extra $35,000.00 at this point. We, as a commission, and Council too are wrestling with exactly that problem. If we have an overrun here or a shortage here, what are we going to do about transferring funds. Audience... Berg: ...to say and have it be an official answer because ! don't know that I know. I think we have to, no pun intended, we have to cross this first bridge before we can get to the second. Audience... Berg: I don't know. My sense would be it would be part of the discussion but don't quote me. Hoffman: It becomes a little bit more complex and I understand the concern. The commission is an advisory board to the City Council and the City Council is all on board thinking that projects are going to be constructed and approved and so the commission makes a recommendation not to do that, simultaneously to that recommendation they could put up a second recommendation for an alternate use. That certainly could be a part of that discussion. I would recommend that we take up on the 28th, on your meeting, your regular scheduled meeting for April. Playground area 33 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 is a location. We'll take a look at the cost of the second phase and some other potential improvements for park for that $35,000.00 as an alternate. And we'll also explore the, if the trail would go through, the cost and the effect on the environment that if you would a second type of trail which would be more aggregate or wood chip in nature. Much more modest sized bridge and that would... Lash: This project came out of the park improvements... Berg: At this point I would entertain a motion to table. Lash: I move that we table this item until our next regularly scheduled meeting in April at which time we would have the opportunity to... Berg: Okay. Audience: Is that a public hearing then? Lash: Yeah. We've got to have it. Manders: And consider alternatives... Berg: Is there a second? Roeser: Second. Lash moved, Roeser seconded to table action on the Stone Creek Park trail with bridge until the next regular scheduled Park and Recreation Commission meeting in April. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Berg: Thank you for coming. SUNSET RIDGE PARK: HALF-COURT BASKETBALL. Paul Page from Hoisington Koegler Group presented the staff report on this item. Berg: Entertain a motion. Manders: Then I would move that we install a half court basketball... Lash: I'll second that. Manders moved, Lash seconded to install a half court basketball court at Sunset Ridge Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 34 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Berg: Before we do commission member presentations to wrap this up Todd, do you want to bring us up to speed on Coulter? Hoffman: Councilman Berquist spoke with City Manager Ashworth about amending the Monday night Council agenda to add an item to reconsider the approval to go ahead with plans and specifications. However, then due to his absence at the meeting and the absence of Mayor Mancino that was never discussed. It was pulled as an item for discussion on Monday night. It will be discussed at a City Council work session on April 6th. Tentatively scheduled and what you're finding, or what I'm finding is that the engineers are proposing alternatives to the original plan and Councilman Berquist is asking questions such as, does it have to lit? Does it have to be this width? Do we have to include you know this amount of grading? Those type of things and so they're not just looking at a no build option. They're looking at an option to change design as well. You should note that at the work session of the City Council last night, council members noted that they were receiving as many calls, or approximately as many calls in favor of the road as they were against the road. Berg: Business is organizing it. Hoffinan: That's the status. I don't know when it will come back in an official City Council agenda but I do know that they're planning to talking about it on Monday, April 6th at their 5:30 work session that evening and when the agenda is prepared for that, I'll mail it out to you. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Berg: Are there any commission member presentations? None? Lash: Oh yeah... Well Mayor Mancino called me the other night and we need to discuss 101, the trail on 101. Berg: We did. Lash: Oh, okay. Roeser: We decided that nobody is in favor of... Until they do the highway, you'll never get... Lash: What she wants, what they want is that we are supportive in the effort...priorities so that as funding... You know I think where this all came from was the overrun and using the reserve for the overrun instead of being able to stay in budget there so that our reserve could then be used... Manders: Aren't we already setting money aside for 101 in a fund? Roeser: Yeah. 35 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - March 24, 1998 Hoffman: And there's also the Hennepin County Tax Increment...commissioners are all aware, they did not recommend where the money would come from. They're looking at two sources for the overage on the trails. For the land acquisition portion... Lash: The other issue that was brought up, you guys might have talked about it. If not, I'd like to talk about it at our next meeting, is this Bluff Creek corridor overlay and acquisition of some of that property...so anyway, Todd you know what I'm talking about so I think what I'm asking.., we're on the same wave length or not. You know if that wasn't... Berg: Would you like to do something now or do we have enough time that we can... Lash: One other thing she said and I was confused but then I...but she said she had this study that says that we have enough active park space to go until we're at our maximum population here and I was very surprised because I was thinking that... Manders: I know I'm not confused about taking monies away from acquiring land to put in trails and I'm also not confused about putting in temporary trails for huge sums of money, l'm clear on both of those. Lash: Well I told her I thought that were really clear that we would never support using acquisition funds... Well you know she talked to me for a long time. Berg: I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. Franks moved, Howe seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park & Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 36