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1 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 28, 1998 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Rod Franks, Mike Howe, and David Moes MEMBERS ABSENT: Ron Roeser and Jim Manders STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer and Patty Dexter, Recreation Supervisors; and Ed Neu, Park Intern APPROVAL OF AGENDA: As presented. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe moved, Manders seconded to approve the summary Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission Minutes tinted June 23, 1998 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. GALPIN BOULEVARD PARK, ESTABLISH OFFICIAL NAME~ REVIEW NEIGHBORHOOD INQUIRIES. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Can I ask a quick question please? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: On the playground plan. Is that the total package? That's what going in now? It's not a Phase I, Phase II kind of thing? Hoffman: It's noted Phase I, Phase II at the top on the break outs and then on the plan itself, it's difficult to read but there should be a noted Phase I, Phase II in there. The little, the smaller structure off to the side is going to be Phase II for sure Jan. And then I'll have to come up with the elements, the other elements of the Phase II. Lash: ... Hoffman: No, not in Phase I. Lash: ... Phase I would be... What kind of age range are we meeting the best do you think with this? Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Hoffman: 5 to 12 in the first phase. Lash: Todd, where were you suggesting then that those trees would go? If they don't go on the berm. Hoffman: The trees? On the park plan, I don't know if you can get any closer to it or not. The berm is going down along this southern border as part of the grading to that property which shares our common border on the south and so the playground is up here. Lash: There's no berming on the west side? Because I thought there was some. Hoffman: Over here? Lash: Yep. Hoffman: No. This is, really lies at the base of the hill of the back yards which come in offof Fawn Hill here. But we talked about maybe a small, just a, more or less a bump in...but those residents talked about that being desirable. Lash: So we are doing that? Hoffman: We can incorporate that into the grading, yeah. This site is still an undeveloped state showing a good crop of weeds and a big pile of dirt. We've got a ways to go before we get it graded and... Lash: Will that be getting done yet this season? Hoffman: We certainly hope so. It's been a busy year. Stonn damage did not help with our schedule at all. Currently the maintenance crews are down at Bandimere Park installing draintile in the soccer fields and then they're headed up to Round House Park to do grading and seed that. ...middle of that they need to get back to the recreation center and Galpin...Galpin Boulevard and then some grading and concrete sidewalks in preparation for installation of a playground. Projects are going to close out their year amongst all of these projects that we've got going in the city. City Center Park and 18 neighborhood projects. Lash: But this should get graded and seeded this year? Hoffman: Seeding would be a dormant seeding on this site. So we would seed in October. Seed would lay dormant until spring and then the parking lot would be in, the trail would be in and the playground would be installed by the neighbors. For the most part the park would really wait... Lash: So the playground goes in next fall? Hoffman: Yep. They'll be here. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: Okay. Somebody, yeah. Your turn. Cinda Jensen: Hi. I'm Cinda Jensen. I live at 2173 Brinker Street and Todd pretty much addressed the questions that we had but just a few comments. The play equipment from Miracle, the one kind of outstanding item and I have left a message from Brenda Winter, the designer, but there is a, I might have to go over here to show you this. This is...like to see potentially a structure that could get younger kids off that... Hoffman: Is it noted as a climbing pole or a fireman's pole? Cinda Jensen: Well I think it's called a climbing pole but my understanding...but if it's changed... Hoffman: Well, yeah I'I1 confirm that with her because what they're going to attempt to do is get the kids up there onto that deck and so then they can make their way up to the spiral slide or over to the ladder. If we put a small slide there, we need to have an access point for the children to get up to this steps and slide down the slide. Cinda Jensen: Okay. Without it being... Hoffman: Yeah, because over here they can climb up here. Or here. Or this... Cinda Jensen: Here we xvere thinking again...but originally, I don't know exactly what the pea rock, with the three foot looks like... At any rate, that's what we were hoping to see with the slide there. If that... Okay. Sugarbush Park. You know, picking or even suggesting a narne you know was not easy for us at all. Quite frankly that and coloring, although I understand we really didn't take that long choosing colors compared to some other neighborhoods but Sugarbush, the background on that is we started with the idea of staying consistent with the theme with focusing on Chanhassen. And unless we're incorrect about this, we felt we understood Chanhassen to mean sap from like a sweet tree or sugar maple tree. So xve toyed around with the ideas of Maple Park and that didn't just seem to have a real floxv to it and one of the neighbors suggested Sugarbush xvhich stands for a cluster of maple trees together xvhich represents, or resembled a beautiful, colorful bush. And we thought that was real nice. Had a nice ring to it so that's our suggestion and it does tie to the name of our city Chanhassen. We would suggest though, with that name that maple trees would be planted in the park to support the name. And I'm kind of surprised at the cost of the balled and burlap trees but I'm sure that's just an estimate. At $350.00 a piece. I'd love to see more trees but. Half court basketball. We saw Todd's response and we were disappointed because xve did, the parks that we visited, we visited several parks when we looked at the equipment and we saw half court at each one of those parks and it did look like something that we thought the kids would like playing on, and the adults. And also would be a nice place to be able to ride trikes and bikes around, particularly if you're coming off that bike trail. So we were looking forward to that. If there's anyway possible that that could be considered, we would like you to consider that. Thank you for the comments back on the benches. The cement border. We feel from a safety standpoint that the cement border is Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 considerably more safe than the plastic border. The parks that we visited at, everywhere that we found the plastic borders, and maybe they vary by company but the places that we visited, on several instances the brads that were sticking out of the plastic, probably as high as 2 to 3 inches on some of the plastic pieces, and I was just over at the Stone Creek Park last week and right at the bottom of that very long slide, the plastic border that's around that has a huge, well not huge but it has about a fist size chip out of it and the edging that that's created is very, very sharp and 1 would definitely see it as a safety hazard for kids. So that is, even though it's more costly, it probably ends up taking away potentially from the possibility of the basketball court. We feel very strongly that that's the right way to go with the border. Berming. Would loved to have seen that berm a little closer to the play structure so that some natural shade could be created, particularly if the shade trees are placed on top of that berm. But I know from earlier meetings that a berm was planned just north of the property to the south of the park. Let's see here. And it's too bad drinking fountains are a thing of the past because that would have been wonderful to have too, right off the bike trail there, l'm trying to think if I'm forgetting anything. I think that's it. Our really only, we've been very pleased with the process. We're very excited to see the park. Can hardly wait and can hardly wait to put it together. Todd's been great. Oh, that's right. That's right. As far as the volleyball court. If we could not, the neighborhoods felt that if a half court basketball court is not possible, we'd actually prefer not to have a volleyball court. Now this is not polling all of the neighbors but of the group that has assembled, we just feel that it is not something that we'd like to see and maybe have that S500.00 go elsewhere. Maybe back into the play structure but we just don't think it would be something that would be used maybe by pets but we just don't, we can't see it as a feature that would be used by the residents. So that's, perhaps you've had different opinions from xvhere you have that in other parts but okay. But again, I really want to thank Todd and his staff and the folks at Miracle. They've been really great through this process and it's been a very enjoyable process so thank you for that. And thank you for listening to our comments. Lash: Thanks Cinda for all your help too. We appreciate the neighborhood input always. Do we have commissioner comments? Mike. Howe: Thanks. Cinda, you said you have some support for the name Sugarbush in the neighborhood? That's pretty popular? Cinda Jensen: Right. Of the group that met... Howe: Can we just get rid of the volleyball court or does that have to be tabled? How do we do that? Do we have to go further on that? Hoffman: ...it's your action. Howe: That's all. Lash: Dave. 4 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Moes: Just a quick question also on the Sugarbush park name. Any, ! guess just maybe input as to the, I guess the reason to change the name from Galpin Park. Boulevard. Hoffman: Galpin's just a name that's been. Moes: It's just been used, okay. Alright. I thought maybe xve had officially called it that at one point in time. Okay. Hoffman: Needed to call it something so we called it Galpin. Originally it was Galpin Boulevard Parkland and now we've just been referring to it as Galpin Boulevard Park. Moes: Got it. Lash: Do you have anything else Dave? Moes: Nope, that's it. Lash: Rod. Franks: Have we considered putting in a half court basketball, would that be plarmed to go in the same position where the sand volleyball court is stated'? Hoffman: It'd either be in that comer or somewhere down off of the open playfield, most likely in that north side. 50 x 50. Franks: I've learned nay lesson xvith the tree stamp thing too but there's not the stamps on this and there's just indicated forest area. But l'm just wondering if, I can't recall the type of forest that that's indicating. Hoffman: This is fairly dense growth, stand of trees, it's existing and then this is a nice grove of trees just off of Galpin Boulevard that separates, buffers the park from Galpin Boulevard...but once this site is graded, these are the two, the only two areas that will have trees. That will have trees. There's no other trees on the site today. Lash: Where did you say basketball would go? Hoffrnan: Well it could either go here in this comer. We can modify this grading plan considering. Typically we try to keep these mass...we try to keep these mass of asphalt separated in a nice neighborhood park setting like this. Parking lot connecting the trail...interface between the play structure and other amenities is nice... This location would tend to bring people into the park. Utilizing the trail system... Franks: The foresting is a mixture of trees? The oak and scrub and. I guess what I'm wondering is, the name Sugarbush conae up because we have stands of maple that are already present or is that. Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Cinda Jensen: Unfortunately no. Hoffman: Those 6 trees would be maples though. Lash: In a clump? We could pretend they're in a clump. Franks: I've seen concrete bordering too around the play areas and I mean that's just a superior type of border all around. But I haven't seen how they last... We don't have any other play areas that are bordered by concrete at this time, that's correct? Hoffman: Not public playgrounds. There are some private playgrounds that are bordered with concrete. In other communities they're doing it, the problem with concrete right now is it just so dam expensive. $15.00 to S17.00 a foot or better. And you're going to hand form it and the labor and... Lash: But in the long mn it might be... Franks: Or even prairie stone to concrete...private parks of Lundgren. That's all I have, thank you. Lash: I guess my suggestion with the half court basketball, obviously we don't have the money for...trying to make that something that potentially happen to have the stair. When we're not really going to be getting much use out of it this year anyway. When we put it in, do you think we can put it in for next year's budget? Hoffman: Sure. Yep, 1999'sCIP. Howe: Grade for it now. We could grade for it, couldn't we? Hoffman: Yeah. Decide on a location. Grade for it and then include it in your 1999 capital improvement program, which will have the room for a $5,000.00 expenditure. Lash: Okay. So that's the good news. I'll be the one, everyone else has said something about Sugarbush. It's a beautiful name. Personally, and I think in our history we've tried to somehow have some type ora geographical connection to some of the parks. We haven't always done that but I think we've made an effort to do that. I think personally I like that because I think it makes it easier to identify for people. If you said to someone I'd like to go to Sugarbush Park. Where in the world, I mean that could be anywhere. Where if you said let's go to Stone Creek Park, and they have heard of Stone Creek development, you know I mean there's a connection there. Power Hill Park. We have Kerber Pond Park and there's usually, try to have some kind of connection that helps people identify potentially where this could be in town. A lot of times it's named after a neighborhood that it services or the closer road to it or the lake that's by it, things like that. So personally, not that I don't think it's a very nice name. I do think it's a very nice name. Personally ! like the geographical connection. I just think it makes it easier to identify. 6 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 So I would be more in favor of something else, and I don't know what. But everything else is fine with me. If everybody wants to go for Sugarbush, you know I'm not going to lay awake nights worrying about it. You know xve maybe should have said something to you in the beginning. That would have made it a whole lot easier for you to start kicking...like that. Audience: ... Hoffman: Most of them are geographic. There's a couple anomalies that actually you xvere probably here when we named Prairie Knoll and Sunset Ridge. Lash: Sunset Ridge, there was a geographical connection because, well yeah but there's Sunset Trail is the, a road. That was like the only road anywhere near there and v:hen we named it, it was before all the other road names were in and just to the west was Sunset Ridge so there was a little. I mean we're not always a clear hit but there was a little connection there. Hofi'man: Yeah North Lotus, South Lotus, Lake Ann, Lake Lucy. Lash: Carver Beach. Berg: Meadow Green. Lash: Pheasant Hills. Meadow Green. It was Chaparral to start with and I don't know how that happened but so anyway, I'd be interested in a different name and like I said, I don't know what but everything else seems fine with me and if we can get the, I think xve should just go ahead and grade for the basketball court with the intention that we'll do that and I don't have a problem at all not putting up a volleyball court. Some other neighbors have said too you know it doesn't get a lot of use. The only time I can suggest that it probably would get used is like if you have a neighborhood picnic or you know something like that where you have a large gathering, it would get used but it's al~vays something we go back if you decide you're interested in that. I think we could go back and put that in. Fred. Berg: Well ! was going to agree and make the same comment about the basketball court. A lot of the courts that are in operation now weren't there when the park first opened so it's not precedented that we wait a year or so. Or a year hopefully. As far as the volleyball court, that'd be great. Maybe we could put another tree or and a half or two trees into that clump. ! support the name Sugarbush mainly xvhen I saw it at first I supported it because it ties in xvith the Native American definition of what Chanhassen is. And ! don't know that we have to be overly concerned about a location name for a neighborhood park anyway. But that's just my comments. Lash: I disagree. But that's not uncommon. Berg: That's pretty often. Lash: Anyone else with comments about anything? Does anyone want to entertain a motion? Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Franks: I just have one comment, ifI can just direct it Cinda or anybody else who wants to answer. When the name was being kicked around, how big of a group were we talking about that kind of formed this name? Audience: ... Lash: That are interested? Audience: Yeah. There's not... Lash: No. It's not. Franks: Frankly I don't tlnink tlnere's anything inherently wrong with the name but I think ! was thinking the same thing. That's why I was really hoping that those were maple trees in those forested areas and that was tlne kind of indirect gist of my questioning there was hoping that that would be fine geographical time. That at least would have really sold me completely. Lash: Adding six isn't going to... Franks: If they add the six trees, they all have to go in a clump and then where does tine money come from. We hope that we don't have to correct any soils in the parking lot to have the money to add... Lash: I personally, I would like to see the name reconsidered. But you know Fred likes it. 1 don't know where you are Mike. Howe: I like it. Lash: Okay. And Dave. Obviously Rod and I are kind of concrete kind of people. We like everything to fit real nice and neat. Hoffman: I think there's some process of elimination as well. Fawn Hill, we don't want to identify the park, this park xvas selected to bring all these neighborhoods together so we don't want to attach it to Fawn Hill or any of the others around the neighborhood. Lash: Well you'd almost have to go with the road. Hoffman: Galpin Park. Lash: Galpin Lake Park. Hoffman: And Galpin Road goes north, south. Not a lot of other features attached to the name other than the road so that leaves it open. You could name the park that. Lash: Open? What did you say? Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Hoffman: Well it's not like there's a Galpin School or a Galpin, you know the name's open. You could name something, some of the physical structure other than the road after... Berg: Well Galpin's a long road too. I mean it's going to be confusing too if it's Galpin Park. Hoffman: Yeah, it goes north and south. And it goes south of Highway 5. So then where else, the only really noteworthy physical presence out there, although we had the knoll which was cut down and now we're trying to rebuild it. Lash: But we already have a knoll park. Hoffinan: Are the pine trees. Those beautiful pines but there's very large, noteworthy pine trees right here which are aging and we want to try to attgment with some other plantings there but. Lash: Okay, I love it. Do you love it Rod? Franks: Bad .joke that comes to mind is I'm just a sap for public indulgence so. Lash: Well you know we could put in one of thc trees could be like an anlner. That's kind ora clump, right? Audience: ... Hoffman: I think the name would definitely accomplish that. It would get attention of the maple trees. Berg: Is Sugarbush Park at Galpin unacceptable? Hoffman: For that park sign it is. Lash: That's kind of long. But thanks. Berg: Tried to compromise here. Lash: I know. I know. Well amners might be a little cheaper too actually. We could put in six amners...They're very colorful. They're not sugar maples but they are very colorful. What if we just did the first six, actually amners are cheaper I think than. You know what ifxve just, those would be our first installation. Hoffman: They're not a sugar maple. Lash: Well I know but. Hoffman: Well sugarbush. Sugarbush. Sugarbush is a clump of maple trees with sap in them. Park & Rec Commission Meeting ~ July 28, 1998 Berg: What's happening here right now. A clump of park commissioners with sap in them. Franks: I mean I can go with it. It's just that when they go in, some thought's going to have to be I think put into putting them in placings that, sugarbushes...such a place in the park that it actually accomplishes what you want. Hoffman: We can do a couple of them right away. We can do this park sign will go here and the first half of trees will go... Lash: We can't see that. Hoffrnan: Oh sorry. The park sign will go somewhere right here at the entrance. Franks: Right. Hoffman: And just behind it on this knoll would be the first clump of sugar maples and then the others could go out here to shade the park and you'd be well on your way to accomplishing it. Lash: Okay. Audience: Could i say one thing? Hoffman: Come on up. Bonnie Mahoco: My name is Bonnie Mahoco and I live at 2198 Brinker Street, right across the street from the park actually. And I was talking to my neighbors about the fact that my husband is in landscaping and potentially xve could go through some of his channels to get cheaper trees. And also the idea of you know get nursery involvement could potentially be publicized through the Chanhassen paper and therefore the name could be you know announced to everybody and say this is Sugarbush Park and you know we want to represent Chanhassen and look who's donating all of these trees and they could plaster their names all over and we could have a big celebration or something or have a family park day or something and the neighborhood could help in getting that going. So that was the idea behind having these maple trees and maybe we could start out with a few trees clumped together or whatever. And as far as the name, I guess personally I would be concerned more about the name associated to a location if we had soccer fields or baseball fields where people are trying to find the park to be able to get to their soccer game, baseball game, t-ball game or other activities. But we're just having you know a playground set and hopefully a basketball court, or half court basketball so I guess the location would be more of a concern ifI was trying to find it to go to my son's t-ball game. So thanks. Lash: Okay, thanks. Is there a motion? Howe: I'll try it. 10 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: Okay. Howe: I move xve name the former Galpin Boulevard parkland to Sugarbush Park. That we eliminate the volleyball court. That we, with staff's help, find a good spot for a future half court basketball set up and grade for that. That the trees that are planted, whether it's 6 or 7 ½, whatever, be a maples...other sources to get those. Did I cover everything? Lash: And the park equipment defined. Howe: Oh, xve accept the Miracle park equipment with some of the changes that have been mentioned per staff. And the concrete border. Lash: Is there a second.'? Berg: Second. ttowe nloved, Berg seconded that the Park aud Recreation Commission authorize to change the name of the Galpin Boulevard parkland to Sugarbush Park, to eliminate the volleyball court, grade for the future placement of a half court basketball court, planting maple trees to correspond with the name of sugarbush, and to accept Miracle Recreation's park equipment with the noted changes. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Thanks for all your help. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS: CHANHASSEN RECREATION CENTER CHILD CARE PROGRAM. Lash: We are now going to skip to an item under the administrative section regarding the Chanhassen Recreation Center child car program. That's under Administrative Reports. Item 6(a). We have audience members here for that. We'll take care of you before we get back to our regular agenda. Dexter: Thank you Chairperson Jan and commission. Back in April of '98, of this year marked the two anniversary of offering child care at the Rec Center. The standing operating hours are Monday through Friday, 9:00 to noon. And at the request of customers, service xvas also made available during the winter months on a trial basis. However, these numbers did not support continuation of those evening hours. This program was approved for implementation by the City Council back in February of 1996. And it was under the guidelines by the City Council that this program would be eventually a break even program like we try to offer most of our programs at a break even. Revenues and expenditures have been tracked since the origination of the program and I'll kind of highlight a little bit on the revenues and expenditures. For the first year when we're open from April of '96 tlzrough December, the program was operating a deficit of approximately $5,800.00. For the year '97, once again a deficit of $7,400.00 and then for the first six months of this year we're cun'ently at a deficit of $3,900.00 and if that continues, xve're looking at about $8,000.00 for that year. For this year. So currently that brings us to a deficit of 11 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 $17,000.00. I do want to share with you though that of that $17,000.00, that does not reflect an approximate value of $6,000.00 that is brought in from the use of fitness and aerobics use and personal training use. So you can, you're looking at approximately a deficit of around $11,000.00. If we're really truly looking at the numbers. Lash: $6,000.00 being people who are using the services who wouldn't if there xvasn't child care, is that what you're saying? Dexter: That is, yes. That is for the price that they paid to use the fitness room or to take an aerobic class. Moes: And is the $6,000.00 fi'om the April '967 Dexter: For the 2 ½ years. Moes: Okay. J just want to make sure. Dexter: So although staff initially recommended that the Park and Rec Commission approve the discontinuation of the child care program at the Chanhassen Recreation Center, effective in August, as a result of the outcome in support of the continuation of child care through the letters that I handed out earlier this evening and through the public support that we have tonight, we are eager to listen to any ideas that the users of the service may have so that a win/win solution can be obtained and feasible for all parties. Lash: Okay. Thanks Patty. Are there any commissioner comments or questions quick before? Howe: What's the cost? What do we charge for the service, do you know? When a child comes in. Dexter: Either $3.50 for the first child for the first hour. S2.50 if you have an additional child. Second child. Howe: Per hour? Dexter: Per hour. And it is 75 cents for a quarter hour. 15 minutes. For every, for after that first hour. And we max it at two hours. Lash: Do people stay more than two hours? Franks: If I understand correctly what you're saying is, the difference between the $17,000.00 is that if you discontinue child care, how much revenue, fitness revenue you would lose by those people not using that facility. Lash: Okay. It's $3.50 for the first child, $2.50 for the second child and then what did you say after that? 12 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Dexter: And then it is 75 cents for 15 minutes after that first hour. Howe: But you max at two hours. So if it's one person...7 bucks. Dexter: An hour. You know if someone goes over a few minutes here or there, you let them, we charge them for the hour. Lash: Okay. We have a whole packet of letters here that people sent in and we've kind of thumbed through those a little bit and is there who's got a creative question, how we can meet each other's needs given the fact that we don't want to lose money and you don't want to lose the child care. So. Kevin Weber: Hi. Thanks for taking time to hear us out tonight. I'rn here on behalf of my wife because she's at home with our two children and I actually use the facility oh probably 2 to 3, maybe even 4 days a week. Probably, I'm SOfTy. Lash: Can we get your name please. Kevin Weber: My name's Kevin Weber. Lash: Okay, thanks Kevin. Kevin Weber: And I use the facility early mornings probably 2 to 3 days a week, fall and winter and even into the early spring. And 1 know my wife, she, you know it's a great out for her. The staffthat has been there is outstanding and we would definitely like to keep the center up and running for a number of reasons. In terms of just some suggestions, and I don't know to what extent you knoxv any type of marketing has been done for the, not just the child care but I think the whole recreation center in general, and again there may have been some things put in place, I don't know. But I think there could be some perhaps some better marketing maybe in the Villager. That type of thing to publicize that child care is available. And tie in the recreation center as well. It had actually been a couple of years that we had lived here before I even found out about the rec center and everything so I just think some things could be done there. Another possible solution would be just community events. I know there's some great meeting rooms there and I'm presuming that they're probably rented out for some things already. Maybe there could be some additional marketing for that if it's you know, if there's overflow of church meetings or maybe you know just different meetings that people may have. Or you knoxv parties or family functions, what have you. The other thing that I would throw out, and this may be an expense but I think looking at the long haul it may pay dividends would be to have an outdoor pool attached there perhaps. Or maybe even an indoor/outdoor pool. The closest one out here, the Chaska Rec Center the furthest to my knowledge and I had talked to Nancy Mancino about that around Halloween and she said that you know, that that could be a possibility in the future but when you think about that going you know for a spring or maybe just even the 3 or 4 months we have during the summer, that could be a real cash cow. Certainly there'd be an expenditure on the front end but I think over the long haul that could be a real draw for people and could help 13 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 to fund the Rec Center overall so that's what I have to say. If anyone has any questions, I'm open to it but those would just be a few things. Lash: What do you think about the child care fees? Kevin Weber: I think they're reasonable and ! don't think people would be too opposed if they even had to be increased a little. I know I wouldn't be because like I said, it's a good out for the kids. Particularly in the winter months. We all know how long our winters are here and it's good from the standpoint for my wife to get out and if she can be with some neighbors for an hour just to work out, that type of thing. And like I said, the kids have a good time and everything too so. Thank you. Lash: Anyone else? Moes: Can I ask a question? Lash: Sure. Moes: I guess a question of Patty. How many children can the facility handle at a time? I mean what are. Dexter: That depends on who the kids are. Moes: Well I guess I'm looking from a safety standpoint as well as you know how many hollering kids can you get in the same room. I mean from a space requirements, legal standpoint, how many. Dexter: Part of the kids we have in the audience is, we have Kim who is our child care assistant. She works there. And then we also have Ann Albert who is...And Wendy, who is facility supervisor and personal trainer so there's some of the staff representing that side also so I'll direct. Audience: I don't really know if there's a law that says how many children can be... Moes: I guess that's what I'm asking. Audience: I know that for, if you have a child care, a licensed child care. It's not licensed but I know that you have to have a certain amount in it. Babies make a difference... ! do know that the numbers have gone up opposed to last summer, right? Because I thought the number of children last summer was the average was... Dexter: And we were down to 3 days a week. You know Dave that's a good question and to be truthful ! can't answer that. Because it's never been a problem and I guess that's something that I should look into. 14 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Moes: Yeah, I mean I wasjust thinking if we're talking about ways of, I mean we've got two different things, two knobs to play with. We increase the revenue or we decrease the cost and if we increase the revenue, that means putting more children in there and then my question to that then is, is that a viable solution for what we're talking about here. Lash: Well when do we provide...is it 5? Audience: Mondays thru Fridays. Lash: Mornings only? 9:00 to noon, okay. Monday tlzrough Friday. Audience: ...classes Monday through Friday from 9:30 to 10:30...so if we drop that facility there goes half of our morning program which is pretty strong... So that would affect the numbers in the aerobics classes. Also my instructor... As far as, I xvish I would have looked up but the Chaska Community Center, I know as a resident if you live in Chaska... raising the price, I don't know if that would be an issue...I just think there's so many people that don't know about it and xve don't have any signs... We could have a sign out on Highway 5. How many times...a sign and if we can do more marketing... There's also other areas maybe to generate revenue. Maybe not every area you're going to make money or break even so we're... I think wc give away a lot of room rentals...maybe a lot of the evening clientele and... In fact a little bit with the personal training program too. I have a couple clients right now... Kevin Weber(from audience): I was just curious... Lash: We'll let Todd address sort of the history of. Hoffinan: Yeah, I'II provide some background and history. The recreation center, as everyone recognizes, is a small service provider as recreation centers, community centers go. But the past city councils who worked on this project and past park and recreation commissions, saw it as a stop gap measure for our indoor recreation. When we talk about an indoor/outdoor pool or full blown recreation sen, ices on an indoor level, this community is still looking to a larger community center and at that time there's discussion, if that does occur, that this center would simply discontinue operation. The building portion would be sold to the school district and you would move on into the second level of maturity as a community. That being said, we're here to, you know we're here for the long haul with the recreation center as we currently see it. Marketing, in a small service provider is a tricky issue because in the top end we can't make, we cannot bring down the same type of revenues as a Chaska Community Center. Or other larger centers. And so when you invest in marketing we have to be careful in how we do that for a couple of reasons. You cannot, you just don't have the opportunity to realize the same gains and we also do not want to overxvhelm the community center. There are certain times now when we are comfortably full. There are other areas that we have talked about for years that we can increase revenue. The meeting space is one of those. But there are some dynamics with this center being attached to the school that this does allow that to fully blossom. People, corporate business people do not think of corporate meetings at an elementary school and it xvas mentioned. You know we are attached to an elementary school and so we are left with being a 15 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 family service provider more or less. We do have some of that corporate business but not a great deal. We give a lot of meeting space away. This commission has talked about that many times. Time and time again and so there is the, if you look at those free-be's that we're giving away, is that the same as giving away or subsidizing child care? The people in the audience need to recognize that as staff we're fully supportive of child care at the recreation center, and the commission will be as well. In fact we brought that to the table and lobbied the City Council very diligently to even allow it to become part of our service package at the recreation center. But when they did that they approved it with very explicit directions that if it was not a break even operation, they would not continue it's support so to be, to be responsible to our city council we need to report back to them our findings that after two years this is not a break even operation. And if they would like to continue it, we need to bring that recommendation to them. That was our...from the beginning. I like the idea of trying to come up with other ideas. Marketing, you know we hang our hat on marketing a great deal. We do marketing with our brochures and other small areas but again we do not have the budget for a lot ofglitz and glimmer at the recreation center. Word of mouth goes a long ways fulfilling that type ora facility. And so, as a staff we talk about marketing...Welcome Wagon, all of those things take our brochures, which we put together. Those are distributed to new residents so our new residents should be finding out about the recreation center. And then signage on Highway 5. We are just not allowed by city ordinance to place a recreation center sign on Highway 5 so even though it seems like an easy solution, city ordinance, city signing ordinances would not allow us to do that. Berg: Would it not even allow us to do something like, I know we get up to the Arboretum sign that says a quarter of a mile ahead or whatever. University Minnesota Landscape Arboretum. Could we not put anything like that even saying? Hoffman: No, we petition the State of Minnesota would allow us to have a Chanhassen Recreation Center, BluffCreek Elementary sign on State Highway 5. We were denied. appealed it. We Audience: I don't understand why... Hoffman: Well it's density of signs on the highway and I'll be glad to pull our... Send it out to the front desk and you all can look at it and then we also petitioned the County to have Recreation Center signs off of Galpin Boulevard. We do not meet the requirements of the State and again I'll have to go back and take a look at the reasoning why but it has to do with the regional nature of your facility and they do not consider an elementary school to be a regional facility for a state highway system. So the number of vehicles who have to take in signage on State Highway 5, the percentage of people who would need the information that this is Bluff Creek Elementary and the Chanhassen Recreation Center is very low on the needs of those people who drive, 35,000 people who drive that highway every day. Audience: Realizing that you may not be an expert on the signage... Hoffman: No. 16 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Audience: ...along Highway 5 with different things...so I just don't understand what is it about the rec center that does not allow just a simple sign. It doesn't need... Hoffman: Correct. If you want to consider, what I would call a pylon sign for the recreation center and Bluff Creek Elementary, we can meet requirements as a city with the amount of front footage that we have on State Highway 5 to accomplish that kind of signage. If you xvanted to explore that, we certainly could take a look at that. Audience: ...advertising on the sign... Lash: Okay, a couple, go ahead. Audience: ... Lash: Well we've had, Jerry could kind of address that. We've done some middle school things. We've had a battle of the bands. We've tried some different kinds of things but those aren't really huge...by tile time you paid for the things you have to provide fbr that. You know most of those things end up being more ora service to kids than any kind ora money maker. Audience: Although it could bring other people in to see the facility and know it's there... Hoffman: We've had those events, yeah. Lash: You know we have the Easter Egg Hunt there. We have the Halloween thing there. I mean those things are packed with people so all of those people with kids. No, but I mean they knoxv that the rec center is there. Audience: Well we were... Moes: Well if I could, just a couple thoughts running around in my mind here. First of all I like the child care concept because it does allow people a chance to free themselves maybe. That might be a way of putting it. Just thinking through, you know it sounds like there's a couple of different options right now to increase participation or increase exposure. If I look at kind of the revenue and expenditures here, and I'm just going to throw an assumption out and see how that plays out. Ifxve doubled the activity within the child care center, you know what would the impacts on that be to revenue as well as the related expenditures then7 I mean is there going to be a one to one correlation there and I guess I'm kind of back to my, you know we've got two buttons to play with. The revenue button and the expense button and if by increasing the volume and the activity, is it going to increase both the revenue and the expense without an improvement to the bottom line. Then we still need to come back and say how do we improve in one of those two areas. Dexter: You know I had checked into it a little bit further thinking how much, how many people do we have to come in the door, and how much money would we generate if we were at full 17 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 capacity all the time. And in checking those numbers based on our expenses, it still is pretty n'mch a break even. So in order to break even we have to be at full capacity. Moes: And what would full capacity be? Dexter: And full capacity is, I had figured it at about 12 children per hour. Moes: So the biggest expense is probably labor, right? We're not feeding these kids sirloin or anything. It's labor, right? Franks: So Patty you're saying 12 children per hour and then from 9:00 until noon and your numbers here are daily averages, not hourly averages. Dexter: That's correct. So that would be 36. 36 kids that would have to go through. And that number is just something that I pulled with and that had nothing to do with, 1 did not research to see what our maximum capacity was there. I just wanted to know what it would take. Moes: Exactly. That's kind of where I xvas going because what you're saying then is with this maximum capacity of the 36 children per day, that the expenditure side of the equation would stay status quo or would that also increase based on those 36? Dexter: It would stay pretty much the same because...those numbers were based on two employees which xve currently have...as you see it. Lash: I can't say for certain but I would think that the law would, if you had 12 kids, and I'm not sure which room do you use? Dexter: The one closest to the fitness room. Lash: Okay. But I think 2 to 12 ratio would probably meet guidelines. But I definitely think that's something we would need to check into. I think we need to have some firm numbers. 1 think that we have very clear direction from the City Council that this needs to be a break even. Todd said that was the direction when they approved it. If it's not a break even, they won't support it anymore so regardless of what we all think, and I think we all support the daycare. None of us want to see it go. What we need to do is come up with a way of making it break even. They didn't say raise revenues in some other area to subsidize. They said it needs to be a break even operation. Audience: ...child care must balance... Lash: You know that's the way I understood it. Audience: ...rec center... Lash: That's our goal for the rec center is to break even too. That's our goal. 18 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Audience: But with regards to the issue that...to the City Council, it was that... Hoffman: From the City Council, correct. When they approved it. Audience: Okay, so it generating revenues elsewhere really isn't an issue with regards to this? Lash: No, but by generating more awareness we will increase usage which then of course can help it to be a break even operation. So like Dave said, it is two different knobs we can tune. We can try and focus jnst on daycare, and of course I'm just kind of skipping. Let's just go right to the punch now because this has gone on for a long time. We can raise the rates. You know that's an easy solution. Several letters said, people said they wouldn't have a problem with paying more. That's a very simple solution and that could be a short term solution while we turn the other knob to try and increase the number of users who bring children in. If we can ultimately get it to 12, or whatever we think the magic number is, then there's some possibility then we could start backing off on the fees again. But you know if we have a clear direction from City Council, and that's who we have to follow, this needs to break even. We need to just look at what are we going to do to break even. And we all want to keep it. City Council wants to keep it. Users want to keep it. So let's just figure out how... That's what it boils down to. Audience: ...have it fi'om 9:00 to 12:00 and from 11:00 to 12:00 it's really low attendance so I don't know if we could cut back to... Audience: ...I mean this might sound odd but then you... Lash: But it's really hard to find somebody to come in and work for one hour. Audience: Well or two hours. What I'm saying a lot ofparents...you know if you look at the other facilities...very narroxv minded, very narrow scope that... Berg: I think you also have to take into consideration that we are not a large corporation that can afford to absorb the kind of the costs that it must be costing Crosstown to be able to provide that service. We don't have that luxury. Audience: Right, but what I'm saying is if you want to increase usage, you've got to figure out somehow to get the bodies in... Audience: There's another area you talk about also... I'm xvondering if there are some creative staffing that...for the hours in the child care... Is that something this commission has heard of before? Or is it just... Lash: Volunteering? No, none of us have ever... 19 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Audience: And I bring that up because...intergenerational book reading deal going on ~vhere people from the community center...and I'm wondering if...not revenue knob but the cost knob and see if we can bring... Moes: With that solution, what comfort level would the parents have leaving their children there? Not knowing...speaking as a parent that you know when I see a new teacher at daycare I'm about ready to stay for the day but that's a personal opinion there you know so. You know just a reaction. Trying to make sure that we're keeping them comfortable. Audience: There's...going to be an on site... Lash: Personally I like that idea but it's hard to operate a program on people like that because you know seniors don't drive or you know. Audience: ... Lash: But I mean it's just all of a sudden now if we beef this up and we get 12 kids in there all the time and then you're counting on you know Mabel Stevens to be there and she doesn't like to drive when it's slippery or she slips and falls down or you know what I mean? It's just, then all ora sudden you are so dependent on a volunteer to provide with according to within laws, you'd have to have so many people for how many children you have. You know then you're putting a lot on that volunteer and that gets to be kind ora scary situation. Audience: Are there any other experiences similar to ours... Hoffman: The recreation center is a unique facility. Being attached to an elementary school. There are other community recreation centers, or community centers that have child care that we explored xvhen we first started the program but I can't speak to any exact comparables. Lash: Another creative solution would be users too. I mean you can come work out for an hour and once a week or once every two weeks you volunteer to help in daycare alone and for that you might get a couple of free passes or you know. Berg: Sort of like the old...co-op's. Franks: The YMCA...take care of that. People who use the workout facility or the aerobics classes then would work off some of the fees for those classes or their workouts by staffing, or signing up to be part of the staffing schedule for the daycare. Child care. I don't know what kind of staffing nightmares... Lash: ...volunteers but those volunteers I feel would be more motivated because they know the whole thing would be riding on them... Franks: Well in a sense they're being compensated for their work too...not strictly a volunteer. 20 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Howe: These are all good ideas and we can certainly I think, when do we have to report this to the City Council? Do they want to know now? What are we talking here? Hoffman: No, it's purely our directive that we are, our own initiative that we're taking this back to the City Council so it's just a responsibility that we feel we should report back to them. The seniors get volunteered for a hundred activities and a couple of those on an annual. Economies of scale is really the issue here. All the other centers that we talked to as a part of this, these are not money makers. Either the private or the public centers and the service provision that allow revenues to be...we chase away daycare, the revenue that's noted here that occurs because of daycare, a portion of that will be lost. A portion will still come to the recreation center through the provisions of alternate child care that you use...and so it's a tough thing to take a look at because you can't drop your child off and go to the pool or go to the other areas that larger recreation centers have. It's really a fitness center or to the workout. Berg: I'd be willing to explore the possibility of looking at some of these alternatives, whether it be signage or a coop or other things that have been mentioned for 6 months and see if we can't mrn the comer a little bit in terms of adding usage. Adding to the numbers of kids that are there. And then take some real hard look at it. The first of the year and make some decisions as to what our recommendation might be. Lash: How often are people there more than an hotll'? Do you think the average person is there... Audience: Little over an hour... Lash: I guess I'd be, I would go along with Fred that we explore some of these different options and see what we can come up with...Dave's thing. You know cranking all these different knobs. Let's just see xvhat we can fine tune. I do think the short term fix of course is the fee and I wouldn't have a problem with just going ahead and raising the fee noxv like to $5.00 for the first child and then just. Audience: ... Lash: Then ifwejust left it the xvay it is. Audience: ... Lash: Sure. We'll get some commissioner comments and see where everybody's going. Fred, why don't you start. We'll start at your end this time. Berg: Well I would add again what I just said that it may be a short fix to increase the rates. Probably more of an inconvenience if we didn't have child care there at all. At least we're giving somebody an alternative in that regard. I don't like spending money more than anybody else but at least it wouldn't be closed. I would like though too if we do look at these alternatives and decide to go that way, that people be aware of the fact that we are considering ending daycare as 21 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 of January 1st. I'm in a little bit of a problem with closing it as quickly as August 7th tOO. But we're giving people 5 months, 6 months and let them know that and I'd be willing to raise the cost for the first child. And maybe even lower it for the second and third but try to be a little more equitable that way but I think that's just a short temporary fix and that's just a bandaid that I don't think is going to work. Lash: Yeah, I think it's just a bandaid too. To show that we're making the effort to meet our financial obligation that City Council has directed towards us and I think if people go into it knowing this is a short term thing and if all these other kinds of things start to pan out, and again that would put some of the ownership of the problem solving you know a little bit on the customers too. You know are the willing to donate an hour a couple of weeks and in return get a couple of workouts and keep the whole thing floating. You know that's something they would have to wrestle with. You know we can look at what we can do to try and beef up numbers. That falls on staff so. You know the other thing is that you guys talking to your neighbors and say do you want to go with me to work out. There's childcare. You can bring your kids and beef up numbers by just word of mouth for the customers using it so. I think Fred has an excellent idea. I think we work on...see where we're at. Hopefully we'd be able to then readjust the fees back to we're being a little more competitive. Berg: And if you look at the maps quickly, if you raise the initial fee, the initial hour to $5.00 and lowered the second hour to $2.00, that family of 3 would be spending 50 cents more than they are now so but we'd still be able to capture the people who are just there for an hour. So it wouldn't be working that much ora hardship on those people with more kids. Audience:... Lash: Rod. Franks: I like the idea of having the child care available. That's unfortunate that it's really not working out too well right nowo You know when we look at what, Patty with what you're saying is necessary, 36 pay units a day and we're looking at, at the most we're having 9, we're talking about increasing our numbers 4 fold. I mean that's, that'd be a miracle of marketing I think to be able to do that in six months. And me looking at the map too, increasing the rates, you know we're not talking about increasing the rates 4 times. We're talking about increasing them maybe a dollar which is a quarter of what they are and increasing the rates is not going to even be a temporary stop gap measure to fill in the gap. In fact it's going to chase some people away. 'Every time you raise rates, talk to the bus company. Every time you raise you know fares even a dime, you have to count on so much lost revenue being built into that. So I mean it's not even a one for one kind of game. I'm all in favor of some of the creative options. That space exists. We have to heat it. Light it anything anyway, whether we've got a paid staff person there or not so one of the things that I'd you know maybe see is moving away from providing this as a paid service and offering space that's available for you know someone mentioned the babysitting co-op. I know we've done that in our neighborhood so we can accomplish our own workouts because we all take tums watching the kids on Mondays. That's the day I'm home so, but we've 22 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 done that in an informal basis but I don't know ifthere'd be certain liability issues involved with that or not. About having available. Lash: ...staff: Franks: ...hire you know a paid staff person necessarily in charge but it's something that the people that would be working out would work out amongst themselves. The other idea that I'm kicking around too, and it's not a very good one and I admit, is this something where there'd be an outside contractor. We're talking about an economy of scale and maybe there is that one of the daycare centers that might be set up to take kids on an hourly basis. Bills we wouldn't get to see, they xvould get to see but at least they'd be a place to drop your children for an hour. I mean I don't know if that's ever been considered or if they want to send a staff person over to during that time. I don't know. Dexter: Rod, I did check. There's a new Children's World which opened up on Arboretum and...I checked on that to see if they had drop in available. They do have drop in available. Lash' And that's right up the street. Franks: What I'm wondering though, it's kind of a partnership thing you know. Would they be willing to take a cut in what their normal drop in is if we're kind of, you know kind of, it's in our brochures maybe that this is available or whatever, you know what I mean. I mean 1 don't know. Dexter: Yeah, when l...what is your going rate I said and then you know if we were to proceed, is there anything we can work out and that was kind of left up in the open depending on how things. Franks: If we're talking about raising it to 5 and somebody's already willing to do it for 6. Hoffman: Yeah, the City Council sent us on a city wide fact finding mission that we talked with and met with each one of the existing daycare providers. That was their preference to have an off site arrangement where people would drop off for an hourly and again the economies of scale, the necessity for licensing, there were, that's why they're so high for drop off. Their rates go up for their insurance. Their rate goes up for a variety of other costs to accommodate drop offs so it was not an option at that time and we can certainly look into it again but I would think we would find the same roadblocks. Audience: ... Hoffman: Oh sure, absolutely. Lash: Oh, you're talking about at the rec center kind of?. Hoffman: No, not the rec center. 23 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: You're talking about Children's World, yeah. Audience:...rec center is an option but... Lash: That's worth investigating you know and that's, you know right now you've got 9:00 to noon and you could go and drop, you know drop your child off and work out and then run to Target and run a couple errands and you know be kidless. I wouldn't have a problem with that but I think that's something we need to look into as far as like licensing. Maybe it's different when parents are off site. I don't know. Audience:... Fra~s: My other concern is, you know I would like to try some of these things...like the first of the year but you know we're talking about potentially if nothing works, losing another $4,000.00 and you know we're dealing with a City Council that was willing to cut our lifeguard program to save S20,000.00 and we do have some fiscal responsibility and it is our goal to operate the rec center as close to break even, the entire rec center as close to break even as possible. I mean as much as it n-fight hurt, there is some reality here that we can try some of these things but really when I look at it, it doesn't look very hopeful that whatever kind of tweaking xve do is really going to bring in the type of revenue that's necessary. And unless there's like some no cost creative way to do it which~.. Audience: ...so they have a listed number. Things that they need to get done in every... something to consider because I think that is an area... Franks: There's been lots of areas that we've talked about I knoxv about increasing overall revenue at the rec center and certainly room rental has been one of them that's come up a number of times and other areas too to save costs but that still doesn't make that child care program stand on it's own and function on it's own and pay on it's own. Audience: No, I guess I just have... Franks: And so, I mean if we want to look at this as a program, right now this program, although it's providing a sen, ice that everyone would agree on we would like to have, is it one that we can afford to continue to have? And to me, it looks like it's going to be a long shot for us to be able to make it pay and so I guess my feeling is, let's do the paying now and let's you know maybe move on or explore those other kinds of no cost creative options. That's my sense. Lash: Dave. Audience: One other comment. Lash: You know we're going to need to, I have to get kind of order going on here because we need to start moving on and we're going to take commissioner comments and then we'll go for a motion. 24 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Moes: I mean as far as you know supporting the child care facility, I'm definitely in support of that. I guess I look at where we've been since the program began. We of course lost money. ! consider those some cost but then it sounds like it's been a very good learning experience as well. That to allow the six month to the first of the year, I see that, I mean I'm not sure you know how many of these numbers have been shared previously up to this point and they're very compelling numbers. I knoxv Patty put a lot of time and effort into those and it's always fun when someone else puts numbers together that go tN'ough them. But you know from my standpoint is, to see that there have been a lot of creative thoughts and ideas here to see if there's something that could be implemented or incorporated over the next, well by the end of the year. I guess we're probably running 4 or 5 months right now, to see if we can turn it around. Although I do have to kind of agree with Rod on a couple issues. As I look at the numbers, we'd have to increase revenue by three times in order break even on a quarterly basis and you knoxv xve were talking $6.00 per hour at Children's World and that sounded like it was extremely expensive. Well three times our current going rate at the center is significantly more than that so l'in not sure if that's the right answer either. But it does look like it is a tough challenge ahead and I'm not sure what the right answers are but I'd be more than willing to give them the capability to see what can be done by the end of the year. Lash: Mike. Hoxve: Yeah, I admit when I came in here I was ready to scratch this whole program, and my wife uses it so, we're just not cash flowing here and I think immediately we've got to raise rates and there might be some way you could run a program, if the city has it, that you can figure out when you would raise the first child and the second to at least bring some more revenue in. 1 think we have to show that xve're taking some steps here. I think it's an important function that would be great to have but it's just not cash flowing. One idea, I don't know 9:00 to noon. If you could make it 9:00 to 11:00, fine. Maybe you have it in the evening. There seems to be some demand for evening and you might get both parents to come in and drop both kids off. Just a thought. If you had it 6:00 to 8:00 or 7:00 to 9:00. I don't know. I might use it then more. Lash: It says they did, they tried it. Howe: Oh, they tried that? Alright, it didn't work. Okay. Lash: Due to lack of... Howe: I think to try to figure that sweet spot out where you can raise rates and you know I think 6 months is a good idea. ! don't think you stop it in 3 weeks. Let's see how we can do and if we can cut the gap. The gap seems to be widening too. It's widening so. Lash: And I guess even before we would, were to set a rate, I think I would like some numbers crunched a little bit and some direction so that we can see what would make a difference. You know if you raise the rate for the first child but drop it for the second, we might be, right. Yeah, right. At the very same spot so you know I think we've got to see some numbers crunched to 25 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 see what would actually make a difference and you guys know better hoxv many come with one child and two and three and come up with what you think will help and I'd be willing to look at that next month and put that into effect immediately and then look at the six month longer term, creative ideas. How to keep this floating. Hoffman: Jan, a couple of closing comments just for your consideration. Lash: Yep. Hoffman: A lot of discussion about making money and let's make more money so we can keep.., and subsidize it and that's reality. The community's center public. Community centers do not make money. The Chaska Community Center does not make money. They subsidize daycare. We subsidize daycare. A lot of the privates do. So you know if they feel short changed because a lot of other programs are subsidized and this one is getting picked on, that's a fair position for them to take. Just on the janitor's, for Wendy's comment. That's a cooperative program between ISD #112 and the City of Chanhassen. We take care of the exterior grounds for no contractual payment. They take care of the interior building for no contractual payment so there's no net gain or loss on either side. Do we get the service that we expect or need? Not always. Do they get the service on the exterior of the building that they always expect or need? Not always but it's at least deemed to be a positive relationship that we can continue to attempt to meet each other's expectations. And then I find solace in Rod and David's reality check about six months and attempting to bring these revenues up. Placing a sign on Highway 5 is not going to happen in six months. We do not have the luxury of operating the recreation center like a private business. I cannot decide, you cannot decide tonight to put a sign up on Highway 5 and instruct me to go spend the $50,000.00 to put up a lighted pylon sign on Highway 5. It will not happen. The City Council will not support a $20,000.00 or a $15,000.00 pylon sign to replace the 4 x 8 plywood sign that we have at the entrance to the recreation center. I find it hard to believe under those pretenses that they're going to support a 40 or 50 or $75,000.00 pylon sign on Highway 5 all in the name of saving childcare at the recreation center. That is just not going to happen so I want to make sure that we're, we all have some realism in our expectations as we move forward because I don't want to disappoint anybody as a part of this process. Lash: We can put this on our list of topics for ourjoint meeting. Hoffman: Sure. You can explain that to the audience so they know. Lash: We're having a joint meeting with the City Council next month or whatever and it's an opportunity for us to share different topics that have come up in the past year that we'd either like direction or like to express our feelings on. So we'll put this on. It will be interesting. Sure Patty. Dexter: Just so the audience knows that part of this all came about because we did lose our child care coordinator so then it felt like that was an appropriate time to thoroughly investigate this. So if we are to continue we will go through August 17th and then... 26 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Franks: So that's the reason why that date was selected? Is all the floors are being resurfaced and the programs would be... Lash: And the coordinator resigned. Dexter: Resigned, yes. Lash: Effective that date? Dexter: No. August 1~t and send that forward to continue it through August 17th. Lash: So given all those comments, is there someone who feels prepared to make a motion... Franks: I move that the Park and Recreation Commission discontinue the childcare program at the Chanhasscn Recreation Center effective August 17th. Lash: Is there a second to that motion? Howe: Second. Franks moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission discontinue the childcare program at the Chanhassen Recreation Center effective August 17, 1998. Franks and Hox~'e voted in favor. Berg, Lash and Moes voted in opposition. The motion failed with a vote of 2 to 3. Lash: So the motion fails so I'll look for another motion. Berg: I move we continue to operate the childcare facility until January 1st, making every attempt to increase usage and also looking at expenditure control with the stipulation that at our January meeting we will look at how we have done and make a decision there as to whether or not childcare should continue at the Rec Center. Lash: Numbers for next month for fees? Berg: Yes. If we could get ideas from Patty on what some appropriate increases would be for the cost. Lash: Okay, is there a second? Moes: Second. Berg moved, Moes seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the childcare program continue to operate at the Chanhassen Recreation Center until January, 1999, making every attempt to increase usage and control expenditures, at which time the Park and Recreation Commission will evaluate the program at their January 27 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 meeting to make a decision whether or not to continue the program. Also directing staff to investigate what an appropriate increase in rates would be. All voted in favor, except Franks who opposed, and the motion carried. Lash: Are you feeling comfortable with your direction Patty? Okay. So hopefully this will all work out and... Okay, thanks for all your input and again I hope we can work this out. Audience: Just one more thing, l'mjust generally interested in this line item balancing going on with regards to this childcare issue. Help me understand. Is that type of fiscal management going to occur with other programs in the recreation depamnent? Lash: That xvould be up to the city council. Audience: ...have to balance every line item on it's own. Lash: My assumption, no. I don't think that the city council will do that. I think because this was something new that started after, it was an after thought. I think for them to say yes, we want to try this, their fiscally responsive way of dealing with it was to say but it needs to support itself: Audience: Okay. Thank you, I appreciate that clarification. I was just wondering... Lash: I mean I cannot speak for City Council. They can do what they want you know but that would be. Audience: Okay. Perhaps that's something, a question I could bring up at the joint meeting and just get an idea on the direction of their thinking with regards to... Lash: Well that's I think what we'll talk about when we have that. Audience: Thank you. Berg: 17th I believe. Audience: It's not open for the public to attend? Hoffman: Well it's a public meeting between the City Council and the Park and Recreation Commission. Lash: But just so you know, it's usually like a one hour max kind of meeting where we try to cover a lot of different issues so it's really not something that we're going to sit for an hour and discuss daycare at the rec center with them. You know it's something we're going to look for quick direction and move on and we'll be hitting a whole bunch of different topics so. Audience: Okay, thank you. 28 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: Thanks for coming. REQUEST FOR REZONING OF 6.39 ACRES FROM RURAL RESIDENTIAL TO PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT RESIDENTIAL AND PRELIMINARY PLAT APPROVAL TO SUBDIVIDE 6.39 ACRES INTO 7 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND 2 OUTLOTS; AND VACATION OF A PORTION OF THE DRAINAGE AND UTILITY EASEMENTS LOCATED ON LOT 9~ BLOCK II STONE CREEK 6TM ADDITION~ LOCATED EAST OF GALPIN BOULEVARD AND NORTH OF STONE CREEK ADDITION~ LYNMORE ADDITION~ DAVID D. MOORE. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: So would we be able to just say to the developer, we don't really have a driving motivation to put that in there. If you want to put it in there as a sales pitch to those people, that gives them access to the park. Otherxvise they've got to go around somewhere else. He can go ahead and put it in. Hoffman: They won't put it in. But we can, we talked about that. They would not put it in. They are attempting to cut costs. That is the reason they are even considering donating Outlot h because this is a $9,000.00 credit to our trail fee. They're not going to turn around and invest that in more back in the trail. We xvould not realize the benefits... Franks: If you go bet~veen that Lot 5 and 6 and connect to the new trail to the north, does that cut across that other park and property? Hoffinan: Yes. We own that land. Lash: This situation really brings to mind Hennan Field. And do you remember when we had, that's the...where we were supposed to go. There was supposed to be, and I think we ended up just nixing the whole idea. Hoffman: ...course. Lash: Yeah. There was supposed to, you know how you nonnally get built on the far west end I think of the park we were supposed to have a trail access that would go up this just monster hill and cut between two really close homes. And you know we looked at that and it was a very similar kind of situation to this. A big ravine and like right through somebody's back yard. Practically their side yard. And xve looked at that and thought, you know who's ever going to really use it. You'd almost have to be a goat to get up it once you went down. You'd never be able to use it with a stroller or a wagon or a bike. Maybe a bike but... Howe: Not to sound like my friends from the Oaks up here but there's only 7 homes here and really they're not on this Galpin trail, they're not that far from Stone Creek. But for 7 homes it does seem like quite a bit. If the terrain is as rough as you say. 29 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Franks: Do we have any idea like what they, the home site on Lot 4, how far it would be you know up this private street, down Galpin and then using street access to Stone Creek? How far would that be? Howe: Halfa mile. Lash: You'd have to figure 2 out of 7, in their back yard. If they want to go through the woods, they're just going to cut their own path. A short cut. And chances are they're all going to be friends and the friends of the kids are all going to just cut through the yard and go...make it an established trail or... Howe: Then there's the safety issue and you can't see back there. Berg: We don't knox,,' who's out there. Hoffinan: This outlot is very nice. Howe: It is. Lash: Oh, I'm definitely in favor of taking the outlot. Yeah... I think the trail's kind of a, pretty much a no brainer there. Hoffman: And they may play offit. They may retract their offer on the outlot. Lash: What would they do with the outlot? Hoffman: They would just, right now the mechanism is that Outlot A would be attached to this home. So then it does not become public space an& Lash: Fine, then we get the fees. Franks: It becomes part of Lot 4? Hoffman: Yes. It would become attached to Lot 5 actually. Franks: You wouldn't be able to subdivide that lot because there'd be no access so in reality as far as like your...look like parkland, forest anyway. Berg: And we'll get their taxes. Hoffman: Yeah, they would raise their taxes. They would have access to it for wood cutting... Berg: I move we accept staff's recommendation for. 30 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Hoffman: For the park half. Berg: Yeah, for the park half. I'm just trying to find a xvay to say it in as few words as possible. You know what I mean. Lash: We take Outlot A but we're not interested. Berg: Correct. Not interested in the trail. Lash: Okay, is there a second to that? Moes: Second. Berg moved, Moes seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the CiD' Council approve Outlot A being reserved through park dedication and that fee title to Outlot A be granted to the city in exchange for full park fee credit and not to accept the trail easements. All voted in favor and the motion carried. (There ;vas a tape change at this point in the discussion.) ESTABLISH JOINT CITY COUNCIL/PARK AND PRECREATION COMMISSION MEETING AGENDA ITEMS. Lash: Items you'd like to check on. Franks: I don't know how to phrase this or really how to come up with the idea but creating, talking to this council about having some kind of mechanism where we are kind of on an continual basis on the same page. Because this whole O'Shaughnessy property thing still has me rankled in that they just were not, we weren't in the same library, let alone the same book, let alone the same page and you know it got to the point where they're not evil people and we weren't making bad decisions. We just were not any, not ongoing effective communication. So I'm wondering if we want to consider instituting some type of more formal process xvhere there's, we know what they're looking for and what they're doing and you know if that can go up to them and come down to us. Kind of that... You know I didn't like that feeling of like, now I realize where you guys are at after it's way too late. Or where we could have completely altered what we were doing and to accomplish our goal but by the time... Lash: Do you think there's something that could have been done that would have changed that whole thing? I mean could we have...? Franks: You know, I don't know about that hind sight thing. I'm not real interested in that. I am more interested in the process I guess than the hind sight. Not the outcome. The process was not to me, was not satisfactory in that it's like they, still I don't think they understand the historical way that...property will fit together. That was never planned to be fit together that way and that this really is something new. That they never grasped that concept because they were never xvith 31 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 us when we were looking at it. That's not what they were focused on and we didn't know that they weren't really focused on that. It's like they had another agenda going and we weren't completely aware of what that agenda and they weren't really understanding what our agenda was and it got to be like well, you're park people and you know, the council's money people or, we just didn't really understand each other and I don't know if I'd want to go so far as you know that there's a liaison from the council or some council member that's you know kind of our contact person. I don't know if we'd want to go that far but some kind of mechanism that we can count on to have more... Howe: Well, ! think we're an advisory board to the Council and I thought that meeting, when we were here, the three of us in March, or was it February, you know I thought it did work because I think we slowed them down. I think at that meeting they were ready to stamp it and I think we made them think about it. We made them think about what they were doing... Well yeah, I think they were ready to go and we at least, they backed off and looked at it. They're going to worry about money. They're going to worry about state aid and they're going to worry about business. You know if you keep those things in perspective, I think they're parks are important to them and that's what we're here for but there are other issues that they're dealing xvith too. As far as the mechanism, fine but I do think the system worked for 3 or 4 months at that point. Lash: We didn't necessarily like the outcome but I agree with you Mike. Howe: They pulled back for a while. Lash: And I mean we had ajoint meeting with them in December. We hashed it out, you know an open deal and then we came, you know we sent them our recommendation. I had a personal conversation xvith Mayor Mancino about it. We sent them the letter. You know we came to two city council meetings and that is the process and I wasn't happy with the outcome but unfortunately we're not, they're not always going to agree with us. Franks: Oh, I don't mean. I'm not talking about outcome I guess. I'm talking more about process. Lash: But what more ~vould you want? Franks: Well what we're kind of talking about, except for that work session, it was all one way communication. Except for the work session. It was either them talking to us or us talking to them and that was the one time that we actually were able to really discuss. And so since the reality is most of the communication is going to be one way, either us going up to them or them coming down to us, is that we are kind of like more I don't know, together. Lash: But I don't necessarily want to be so together with them that we just do what they want. You know what I mean? Franks: Right. And then well we're no good. 32 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: ...from a park perspective and they have to look at it from all the other perspectives and if all of a sudden they're telling us which page we need to be on, then we've lost our sight. Frm~s: No. No, what page they're really on and then we will act autonomously. I mean we're no good to them if we're not acting autonomously. We cease to have a viable function for them but... Well I don't know, that's just one of the things that I'm kicking around. I was able, I went to, I think that's one issue I followed completely through. I think I was at every city council meeting that was on it and that's the only issue that's gone to city council that I've really followed all the way through. And ! was able to accept the outcome. I mean I can accept that outcome but really on the hind sight what was not acceptable to me, the process of how it all came about. Lash: The part of it that I'm uncomfortable with is I sort of feel like we all came away from that particular issue with a little bit of tarnish on our image. Franks: Exactly. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Howe: Who's on the cities or the council's or xvho? Lash: The council. I think there were some people who were, I liked your word, rankled by how we. Franks: Pushed. Lash: Right. And I would like to somehow mend somehow politically if we've burned any kind of bridges, I'd like to kind of clear the air on that issue... They knew right where we xvere coming from but they didn't necessarily agree with our tactics and 1 think I'd just like to make sure that we air to them how that kind of happened and parts of it were a little bit out of our control. You know the paper pulled our letter and printed it. That was totally out of our control and it was not the intent but I don't know for sure that they all kmow where we were coming from and why we made those decisions. Franks: Well, I think you and I are saying the same things then because that's exactly what I ~vant to avoid. I think we can, you know we can still advance our agenda as a park commission and ask autonomously as a commission but yet do that without incurring the tarnish, you know. That's what I'm looking for. And the only way that I can see how to do that is that we have to be kind of a more open process of getting together on those things so we can have a greater understanding. We can still disagree and have a greater understanding at the same time. Lash: I think that, well that particular...and I really have never seen anything quite, take the twists and turns that that particular... Hoffman: There's been a few between the council and park commission over the years. But the communication thing is, it's a tough one. They know exactly what you're doing. They receive all your packets. They can read all... You're an advisory board. You're in you know...position. 33 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 And so I would expect constant 100% communication back and forth is again unrealistic. We meet annually. They meet weekly and so as a council they're here every Monday night, more or less meeting weekly. They publish, or we publish on their behalf what is called news alley and so it's not just news about parks and recreation, but it's news about everything that's going on in the city that affects the city council and decisions they may make or hot issues. Those type of things. If you're interested in that, you can ask. That can be included in your packet under your administrative packet. We'll bring you not only a variety of news regarding parks and our projects and what's going on, a bunch of other stuff. That may be another thing... That's a good way of bringing communication back down. Other ways of bringing that back down, I'd ask the question. Ask the question and see what they come up with. Lash: Well I mean this would be kind of a snotty thing to say but you knoxv, to kind of drive home to them, I think my biggest frustration with that was how somehow or another the engineering department xvas able to just charge through with this before they really even ended up with a direction. And not only as a commissioner but as a resident of the city, I xvas...that process occurred. And I think the city council, some of them were probably a little surprised that that had happened too and I guess l'd like to know how that could happen and what was done about it so that won't happen again. Otherwise you know, why can't we just go ahead and tell you Todd, we want to just take that Outlot A and we don't care what the city council says. You just go ahead and do it on your own and that's okay. And I think the process was skewed in that particular area. I think in every other area it worked. We went through all of...and somehow we ruffled a few feathers here but that particular part is the biggest part that.., someone, somewhere in this city hall took it upon themselves to get that project through before they had the direction. Hoffman: I think we should be careful to make sure that we don't rehash O'Shaughnessy but talk about process° Franks: ...needs to be brought up. I mean unless that's something that we all xvant to do. Lash: I'd like to just kind of clear the air. I think there's a little cloud hanging over. Hoffman: You did, you know the park commission ran for quite a few years with the best... relationship and stuff. Those tarnishes can happen. I took some hits on that as well. The public safety commission is constantly being drilled. The planning commission, just by their nature has more ongoing dialogue with the city council... It's kind of like the rubber stamp deal. It comes out of the Planning Commission directly to City Council. We don't always see all that business so they have a more direct relationship. Environmental Commission. Constant sparks. You know what are you doing? Now what are you doing? Why are you dealing with that? Oh, that's going to be a headache for us. So this communication thing is good. Lash: Anybody else have. Berg: Do we want to know where they are with Lifetime? Or that type of philosophy. 34 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Franks: I don't think we want to talk about the, you know putting O'Shaughnessy to rest and bringing up Lifetime at the same. I don't know. Lash: Oh, I think it's our only time to talk about it .... because what did we say? We said it last meeting, didn't we? Franks: Yep. Lash: ...we'd call them or something. Hoffman: At this point we only have an hour and it's also disappointing that we're the ones sandwiched in-between so we can't go. But the fact of the matter, that doesn't preclude you from talking with individual council members or attending work sessions. Berg: ...much said during the work sessions though. I've gone to a couple. For this same issue. They graciously let us have 3 or 4 sentences at the end. They weren't too keen on... Lash: Have you got anything in mind Todd that we're forgetting? Hoffman: I think we should compliment each other on the projects that are undergoing this year... It's ironic, I haven't sat with the park commission since April officially but the fact of the matter remains, it's the biggest year that any of us has seen in park and rec. Howe: It's fun to watch the progress. Now that TH 101 trail is starting. I saw that and you can see Bandoleer's taking shape. I love just. Berg: Lash: Berg: Lash: Steps over here at Kerber Pond. Just so you know xve missed you last meeting. We had to break Jerry axvay for crying out loud... Okay, well let's keep going. PROGRAM REPORTS: CHANHASSEN RECREATION CENTER MONTHLY REPORT AND CHANHASSEN RECREATION CENTER GROWTH REPORT. Dexter: Well I think we've kind of got a taste of what's happening out at the rec center. You know I guess it's some of the same old stuff you know. I have staff meetings... As far as summer programs, everything's going really well. Some of our programs, babysitting of course filled up. That's always been popular. As far as the exterior, we're looking at, I just looked at the inline rink out there and it's surface is complete with the exception of the logo that needs to be painted on the second rink and that one's good to go. And the irrigation. They're busy out 35 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 there. They're hauling in equipment and supplies and I think they're going to be going on that. I just saw it visually. I don't know the details on that so. Otherwise we're just trying to stay ahead of the game and put out fires as they come to us and you know, like I said. Try and get ahead. Berg: The reality of it is, the revenues are up considerably and they should be commended. Dexter: And then the... Lash: They're kind of together, just go ahead. Dexter: Oh okay. And then going into the monthly report, or the financial report. Yeah, that has taken a turn on the upswing. So I think looking at the overall picture, I think things are looking pretty good there. I wanted to highlight a couple figures that, ones you need to take a closer look at is that expense for personnel service jumped quite a bit and as I explained in the memo kind of why ! felt it had jumped up. It had to do with loss of staff. Hadn't authorized overtime you know. Also programs that generate money such as dance and personal training, those are specialized instructors and with that we're paying you know $15.00-$20.00 an hour for those instructors so there's some correlation between those. Otherwise, I think we're going in the right direction. Any questions? Lash: This is, I think I know the answer but just to make sure. For your '97 numbers and then you're '98 numbers, they're both from January through June. Dexter: Correct. Both for a 6 month period. Oh one thing I guess I, first of August we are sending out the meeting place brochure so that's coming out and that is just highlighting the room rentals and it's going to all Chanhassen businesses and then we're targeting the corporate that is on the tail end by the rec center in Chaska. So we're doing that. Lash: You should put that we have childcare in everything we send out. Dexter: And then I did meet with John, Greg McGree's replacement, the building and grounds superintendent I think that's his title. Hoffman: John Moore. Dexter: What was his name? Hoffman: John Moore. Dexter: Okay. John Moore. And we were discussing the possibility of putting together a sign with the school district Bluff Creek, Chan Rec Center because they are going to be updating all of their signs. So he was going to, ! told him we were right in the budget process right now and he was going to get some figures at me. Lash: Out on Highway 5? 36 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Dexter: Actually it was going to be on Galpin. Lash: Sign on the roof? Hoffman: Sign ordinance for this community is pretty stingy and the best you could ask for would be a pylon sign somewhere on Highway 5. Moes: A blimp and kind of tie it to the roof. Hoffman: I've often thought of that. I have often thought of plastering big flashy letters all over that side of the gymnasium but. Howe: A big flag or something. A big giant flag with Chanhassen Rec Center flying there. Lash: Or on that big brick wall too, yeah. Facing...a big sign that just says Rec Center. Hoffman: Probably could do that. We have the, we always have the diplomatic issue of this is also a school so anything we sign on State Highway 5 also has to be signed at Bluff Creek Elementary. The County would not put road signs on Galpin Boulevard either because of the short distance you have between Highway 5 and the turning and all of the signs that are there already. They say, you turn the road. You don't need a sign that says this is the school, recreation center. It's already here. Lash: But some people did have a point. You know that they think it's a school. Hoffman: Yep, absolutely. We'll explore that one. Lash: Anything else Patty? Dexter: That's it. 1998 4TM OF JULY EVALUATION. Ruegemer: Thanks Jan. Just for the interest of saving time l'm not going to go through item by item. Overall, my overall feeling of the event, it went I think very well. I really even behind the scenes there were, there were a few things that were, we need to address that day and the 4th but other than that everything really went I think good overall. With the exception of the rain on Friday night but I think everybody really was going gangbusters with food and beer and all the events were going good until the rain hit and after that it did taper down. The activity, but I think it did help having the bigger tent. That we did retain a lot of people that I thought we would have lost so I think that was really a positive having the bigger tent. I wouldn't say the money that I thought we were going to eliminating one tent but there is more cost associated with getting a larger tent as we had. And I am recommending that we go to a larger tent than we had this year, next year. To increase that either by length or by width if we can do that. It xvas crowded being 37 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 the first year for the trade fair tent. The trade fair underneath that area. We certainly had to do some decisions that day to include a lot of those types of new layout and that type of thing but I think a larger area would be nice for that. I think the band that we had this year was a great recommendation by ex-commissioner Meger for that. We did retain just a ton of people. I think Casablanca has a great following and we did pull people, not from, or other than Chanhassen residents. In fact one of my high school teachers was here. My biology teacher from high school that follows the band came down here that night. So I was surprised. Hoffman: What, and you saw him? Ruegemer: Yeah. Lash: And he goes Jerry... Ruegemer: No, it was nice to see him. But all the rest of the activities went good overall. We can always start, earlier xvith some of those activities in the planning process but overall I think the celebration did go over very good this year. We can tweak some things here and there and I can certainly talk to our fireworks people. I was overall more, quite a bit more satisfied this year than I was last year with the overall process. Dale with Melroses is great to work with. We kind of know each other and what we expect and that type of thing. I have talked to Dale twice since the event to tweak certain portions of the fireworks celebration. And I really would like to stay with them fi'om this point on. We did that experimentation last year. They experiment didn't xvork as I had hoped it would and really with the consistency with Melrose, that was Banner, that is my recommendation that we keep with them. Looking ahead to next year, I'll certainly entertain any other suggestions that commissioners would have. I would also like to just thank everybody for helping out. It really was a group effort this year and success can certainly go out to you as well for all your help so thank you very much for that. Berg: And I'll certainly yield to your expertise in the area but i thought the fireworks a year ago were much better than they xvere this year. Ruegemer: Really? Berg: And so did a number of people that I talked to that we watch every year. They were surprised when they were over too quickly. Lash: I heard the comment it was too short. I thought it was a way better finale last year, but I did think the overall performance. Ruegemer: And I did address that with Dale. We certainly were looking for a shorter show with more impact. And that certainly was discussed and that was a decision that we had made. Hoffman: 18 minutes. We direct them to keep it under 20 minutes. Berg: Really? What's the reasoning for that? 38 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Hoffman: Just have more in the sky at one time. Otherwise they'll give you the same product. They'll just shoot less up. It's better two shells in the sky at once to one and that's a personal... Berg: How much would it cost to add 5 more minutes of the same? Ruegemer: Oh we can, we make the show 5, l0 minutes, 15 minutes longer. It's just all, it's a control issue as far as it's all electronically shot. Hoffman: $1,000.00 a minute. Ruegemer: Yeah, that's about what it is. It's just a matter of flipping switches so. But that's certainly things we can discuss. I did look over towards, to the north towards Excelsior and they did go on at least 10 to 15 minutes longer than we did, but does that make it a better show? Hoffinan: Chaska started before and ended after. Lash: There's is real slow though. Have you ever noticed that? And of course we can't see them all but. Hoffinan: Did we confim~, was the finale not finished. Did you notice how the finale really never peaked? Was that planned or xvas that an accident? Ruegemer: It was a sequencing issue. And it did not pull off like he had hoped. Berg: Never any real knock your socks off kind of ending. Lash: But you did know that it was the finale. Ruegemer: In other years we have known that. I mean there cmtainly has been a pattern with Banner or Melrose in the past that you know. This is the finale. And it did peter out towards the end. We did discuss that and that was some of the areas that we had tweaked. And will tweak for next year. And that's just a matter of you know Dale and I talking some more obviously. I don't know everything there is to know about fireworks and obviously we're placing our trust in him to provide that service. But that's, like I say, we have input from that and I will certainly take any input that you have and give that to Dale. Dale is very conscientious. He wants us to have a good show with them and he is really willing to work with us on that too. Lash: ...personal taste too. You know some people will love something and, you're never going to please everybody. Hoffman: Yeah, you guys think back, I don't know if you critique them every year. There used to be one show in the sky at a time. Boom. This year there's always two. Boom, boom. Berg: That's very well received, and I agree. 39 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Franks: I like to rank them all. I don't like that they mix up. But I separate my macaroni... Ruegemer: So were you happy with the process?...but if that's something, you want to delay, or not delay but to have a little bit longer show, we can have a longer show. Not a problem. Lash: I'd like it a little. Berg: I would too. Lash: I thought it seemed a little short. Berg: And an obvious finale. Those would be the two things 1 would like to see. Hoffman: To 22 minutes. Lash: Make it xvorth going to. I have just a couple of quick questions. I had so many positive comments on that little 3 man band that walked around with. Ruegemer: Oh yeah. Lash: Peoplejust really, that xvas really fun to watch. I think those would. Hoffman: They seem to truly have fun too which is hard to believe. Lash: So you know it was a fun little addition while you were eating and sitting around. Did I read in here somewhere that you're thinking of maybe doing more food vendors? Ruegemer: Potentially. I mean I think that where we are, we could probably tweak some areas with that too but as far as service level, we could probably get by. Lash: I was confused. I didn't knoxv there were hamburgers. I was looking for a hamburger and they were like not with the other kinds of food... Ruegemer: Well and that's interesting too because a lot of those service organizations don't want to spend dime one and I have to find, basically hold their hand through the process. I wanted to put them out on the street with everybody else but they didn't want to invest in a tent and we had the space here in the tent. It's tradition, da, da, da, da. Lash: Well if they were on the other side. Ruegemer: Well they xvere. Lash: Oh they were. 40 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Ruegemer: They were on that side originally but then the Rotary kind of threw a curve ball on me and they brought in a 38 foot semi trailer for the beer. They were supposed to have a van of some kind and I was going to put them on...Budweiser comes in with this truck and I was a bit surprised at that so at the last minute we did switch them to the other side. We rearranged some power to get them over there. But ! understand. Hoffman: Keep the food together. Lash: Yeah, if the food's together, at least you can kind of walk up and down to see what your choices are and make your pick. I didn't know there was burgers. Ruegemer: And for that site they were too close to the music so. Lash: . ..some kind of sandwich. It was a steak sandwich...and that was fine but I would have ratherjust have a burger. Anyxvay, and I had a couple other quick things. I just thought it'd be nice if we send a little note to Janejust thanking her. Berg: I saw her. I saw her as a matter of fact and she asked how...and I told them it xvasjust ten'ific. Hoffman: She called in. Lash: And just say you know, everybody loved them. That was a great suggestion and thank her and kind of keep in touch. And I heard a lot of people say they thought the location down here, they really liked and they thought it was more visible and it drew in more people. Hoffman: It will stay. Lash: Okay. and then I just, it's so packed and if we have that thing right on main street, I'm thinking if we want to try at all to conserve some money, I think we're at a point xvhere we can cut back a little bit on the advertising. I think...xvhere all your advertise to but I think if we kept it local we'd have plenty of people. I'm just looking for things to cut. I don't know. Ruegemer: That's why it's been a luxury for us in the past with our marketing and you know, we do create very nice brochures and I think if we cut it back to a poster. You know there's a lot of different variables that go into that type of, and we can certainly take a look at you know cutting items and as you go through the budget process now for 1999. Lash: and I have no idea what all is involved in like how many different papers you send it to or any of those kinds of things. I don't know what you do with it. Ruegemer: Obviously we never thing it's enough but we certainly will try to contact as many people as possible so they reserve that date for us but. 41 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: Well I think word is totally out. It was packed. That had to have been a record this year. Don't you think? Ruegemer: Just the kiddy parade alone was incredible. Lash: And then the other, one other thing, this was the only thing that I think ~ve could, that I saw a problem with at all. I just thought you did a great job Jerry. But when it was time for the prize board to start, nobody was there to set it up. People were standing around wanting to buy tickets and there was nobody there. You know like 10 minutes before it was supposed to start and nothing was really set up so you know I kind of jumped in and I know Elizabeth kind of ran in and Patty was helping out so we all just kind of scrambled and got caught up but you know I think it needs to be somebody, I don't know who's but somebody's responsibility about 6:30 or whatever to get that stuff all set up so we're ready. Because we just get, and then when the commissioner volunteers for the early shift, you need to be there like at 10 to start because people are starting to line up for tickets and you know we were just cranking off spiels of tickets as fast as we could and separating them and stuff and it was crazy for about half an hour. Hoffinan: That prize board group is committed. Those people that buy those tickets xvill stand there and...absolutely. The more people I've met in these last 5 years. Lash: But I mean that's really taken off too. Where you've just got, it is. You've got like these prize board groupies and they just start huddling around the table wanting to buy their tickets so...That was great. I had a lot of fun. Good job. Anybody else have anything? Franks: I like the idea for a sand volleyball tournament, i don't know if that...beach volleyball seems to be just gaining in popularity... Lash: Okay. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS: None. COMMISSIONER PRESENTATIONS: Lash: Fred, do you have any? You were kind of... Berg: I was just going to ask about what is the feasibility of actually getting going some time on the signage. On the historical signs. What do we have to do? Hoffman: Well, we talked about it on a number of occasions. I sat down with the senior center and with the group that was going to try to start the background part of it. The historical part of it and they really never took off on it. The elements of the package, we need editing and we need production and we need some putting it up on the signs itself. And then it just needs to be a priority which it's not a priority in the current scheme of things of the work that I need to manage in a day to day basis. 42 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Berg: Before we have the book that was written, the history of Chanhassen book. Went and poured through that and looked at names and, would that help if somebody did that and put together a list of names and relationships to the streets so we could at least get that started and then maybe start looking at to whoever we have to look at. Lash: Could I make a, Mr. Berg's social studies teacher extrodinaire. Hoxv about a little extra credit project for one of your accelerated students to do a little research. Berg: Gee, that's not a bad idea. Lash: A project there. Berg: Ill gave extra credit, that'd be a good idea. Lash: Well you might have to be flexible. Berg: I might have to adjust my philosophy. Lash: Then okay here, then I'll take it one step further. How about in, you know my son has taken quite a few industrial classes. You know hoxv cozy are you with some of the industrial tech teachers as potentially making those a project? Berg: I can talk to Mark Lecy. It's a suggestion. Hoffman: The politics in just assigning these little quotations was the issue with the seniors, which is not unusual. They're particular about their history. Berg: Well, maybe if we had something to bring to them then they could, to use Jen'y's words, they could tweak it a little bit instead of having to play with the politics of writing the whole thing. Well if you just said this or took off that. Hoffman: And if we started in fall, maybe it will... Franks: I think you need to have direction... Howe: Does the library have that book? Hoffman: Yeah. And we could donate one. Ruegemer: Fred, we can get you one. Berg: If you can get me one, I'd like to start going on that. Hoffman: We'll magic marker on it, historical street sign marker... 43 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: If we got to that point where you've got the little one phrase thing assigned, and we get some handy students to make the plaques. Now we've got to boil it down to installation and that could be a winter project. Maybe that would be doable, huh? Hoffman: If it makes you feel any better, that project haunts me. Berg: Does it? Hoffman: We have 5 million in projects but man we've got that historical street sign thing we're not getting done. Berg: I'm holding off my next vacation until we get that one done then I'll thro~v another idea. Lash: Are you done? Berg: Yes, I'm sorry. Lash: Okay, anyone else? ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET: Lash: Do you want to do that Kings Road? Hoffman: Yep. What the engineer would like to do is...no parking so Minnewashta Parkway, Kings Road... parking lot over here. Parking right...on this side and blocking the intersection. They want to have no parking here for 50 feet and no parking here all the way back.., park on the park side of the street... Dave Hempel, the Assistant City Engineer is trying to make sure that you're comfortable with that... Ruegemer: How many feet is it Todd from the dark to the parking lot? Yeah. Hoffman: ... Ruegemer: That's enough for xvhat, roughly 30 cars? Hoffman: Oh no. Not that many. Lash: I think we anticipated this one when this whole deal started so I don't have any... Fra~s: Have they been overflowing the lot? Hoffman: No, they park here first. Lash: Because it's closer. 44 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Hoffman: They haven't started on the lot yet. Lash: Does anybody have a problem with that? Okay. Can you just explain a little bit about this Charles Mattson thing in here because, and where is his property? I'm confused and who is he talking about anyway, do you know? Hoffman: Well you have to read into both of these letters a little bit. Charles Mattson has the property across from Pies Inc. If you were to go out Mike's front door, travel south to Lyman. Take a left. Go past Holasek and immediately cross the railroad tracks and then look left. That entire large tract is agricultural property of Charles Mattson. So obviously Lifetime Fitness has been talking to Mr. Mattson. This is a potential location for Lifetime Fitness. The City shows interest. Representative of Lifetime Fitness coming down to meet with Mayor Mancino and Kate Aanenson and talk about a downtown location. The park commission heads up the Lifetime Fitness and talks to their people about you know, well yeah. This might be something that would work in Chanhassen and we're looking as a community. What do you guys got going? Next time, they talk to Mr. Mattson or Charles calls them, they say hey. You know we've got a bigger fish on the line here. We've got the city talking to us. We're not so sure your deal is.. Now again, this is my reading into these letters but that's what I see happening here. That's why Kate's response to Mr. Mattson's letter because he showed this extreme concern that... Lash: So he had a signed contract? Hoffman: I don't know. I don't know that to be true. I don't know. Lash: But did somebody meet with them beyond this? Hoffman: No. Lash: Well then I was happy to see we had... Hoffinan: He came storming in my office one day. Lash: Well I'm glad you asked her to come here. If she wants to come in, we can go through the whole thing xvith her. Hoffi-nan: Well she wants to, she really needs, you know I was quite offended actually that they would come in and just start ranting and raving when I worked on their behalf beyond really where I should be for a person that, once they sent their initial inquiry and never showed up and walks in the next summer and says, well how about this here? And so I said well I think you should read the Minutes of just what transpired due to your inquiry and then if you feel compelled to come in and make additional...of the park commission, you certainly are welcome. Berg: Since you lose in Eden Prairie. Lash: So what is it that gets her over to that particular beach? 45 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Hoffman: They lived downtown Chanhassen before. I don't know where her brother lives but they like that beach. Lash: Not very much. I should say if they want... Okay. Anybody else have anything they want to discuss? Franks: The Springfield sign has been. Berg: Yes I knew. Hoffman: ...there it is. Berg: Isn't that beautiful? Lash: Is that the one that's over by Bandimere? HoflSnan: Yeah. Berg: Another private park. Swimming pool and... Lash: ...Okay, anybody have anything else? Hoffman: ...well on the record I would certainly like to acknowledge that Patty was a valued addition for our department for the past 2 ½ years. She was selected as a top candidate after an exhaustive search back then and we worked very hard to bring her here so we'll miss her... recreation center and made my life a lot easier so my life is not going to be very easy for the next few months. We're at a very busy time in the department but we have people at the recreation center, who you can see are very capable of picking up an issue and running with it and they will certainly...harness that energy. Susan Merrick just spoke... We have an all employee meeting coming up on Thursday morning... Party's going to be working 5 minutes from her front door...and it's a very good department. They have a qualified director down there...and we wish you well. Berg: Their gain, our loss. Lash: Yep. Well good luck. I mean I can't blame you... Dexter: There's a lot of pros but you know it has something to be said about the people you work xvith. Lash: Well it can't possibly be as good as here so. We'll miss you Patty. You did a nice job. Hoffman: Cut the cake. 46 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - July 28, 1998 Lash: So, let's adjourn before we cut the cake. Chairwoman Lash adjourned the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 47