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CC Minutes 11-25-2013Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Mayor Furlong: Thank you Chief. Any questions for Chief Wolff tonight? Very good, thank you very much. Chief John Wolff: Thank you. Mayor Furlong: We’ll look forward to hearing your report on your trips. Chief John Wolff: Absolutely, thanks. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Let’s move on to our items of new business. CHANHASSEN PIONEER CEMETERY, 8151 GALPIN BOULEVARD: REVIEW OF CITY CEMETERY PROPERTY AND OPERATIONS PER SECTION 2-46.03(5) OF CITY CODE, APPLICANT/OWNER: CITY OF CHANHASSEN. Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor, members of the City Council. This item did appear before the th Planning Commission on their November 5 meeting. The Planning Commission was acting under their powers and duties as really advisory role. As I stated in your cover memo there, there were 5 members that participated in the discussion. One member was absent and one recused himself as being a neighbor in that neighborhood so while they didn’t take a formalized vote, they collectively came their opinion on that and I think we’ll summarize that here in a minute so they did listen to the comments from the neighborhood and expressed concern. They felt that it was a cemetery and since it had been established for a long time felt strongly that it was a cemetery but they did express concerns regarding the visual impacts. The tree loss, parking and economic impact so we’ve got some additional information for you on that which we’ll go through in the meeting here tonight. In addition to that, regarding the parking concerns and on Galpin we believe the number of parking spaces, the peak demand would not change over time in how it’s being functioned. Again there’s no lighting at that cemetery and how it’s being used a number of burials in any given year. So the County did stripe that road and kind of did it in the field. Kind of did a field design so it is a surmountable curb. Cars can pull off the road but we can look at that area, extending that a little bit further to the east to accommodate, excuse me, taking the service road to accommodate maybe a hammer head turn around. That main drive that would go in. That would also accommodate some additional parking there so don’t believe that is a concern. And then in addition the staff is looking for direction from the City Council regarding the future planning for a columbarium on the site. A columbarium is a vault with, it’s just for urns containing ashes so this item was not included at the Planning Commission. Again the Planning Commission was really kind of looking at the transition and the neighborhood issues so again looking at the long term development of the cemetery so just looking for some feedback on that. So I’ll go through the staff report as presented to the Planning Commission with some of those updates. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Kate Aanenson: Again the location of the site, 8151 Galpin Boulevard. The surrounding neighborhood in the Timberwood subdivision is zoned RR, larger lots. 2 1/2 acre lots and then the surrounding lots to the south of them would be RSF, the residential single family. The Timberwood Estates, the RR zoning district is where this is located. Kind of zoomed in on that area. The original part of this cemetery was actually established in 1861 and when the Timberwood Estates was platted back in the 1987-88 there was discussion about including this because there was actual burials in this part at that time so the City had, or the cemetery itself had already established rights for use of that property. There was discussion with the Timberwood plat to actually acquire more property. At that time, as in our large lot you have to have 2 1/2 acre minimum. The developer would have lost a lot so at that time this property was then extracted and donated and included as part of the cemetery so therefore those plots that were already had burials on 6 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 them were included in the cemetery so the original boundaries of the cemetery went to, where we’re showing today and I think that is one of the discussion points that the Planning Commission felt like it’s kind of that, that is the limits of the cemetery. The other discussion was on existing trees. Location of trees. Changing the character of the cemetery itself. Certainly low density, low density as we look at our zoning ordinance we don’t require typical buffering on this but certainly being a good neighbor that was one of the discussion points that we wanted to get input from the neighbors was, transitional buffering or landscaping between existing uses so the forester did go out and identify, there’s 32 trees on the eastern property line and only 8 of them are of desirable species or of size, and many of those are box elders, poplar, or ash and these trees may be small or maybe not be structurally sound so the goal would be then to clean up some of those trees from the site and then work with trying to be a good neighbor there and provide adequate buffering. Meeting with the neighbors along the southern and the western, excuse me the eastern property line to make sure that there’s adequate buffer there. Councilman Laufenburger: Kate? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Laufenburger: Before you go forward. Could you just point out the property line, the property corners of the cemetery? Kate Aanenson: Sure. It’s the, I don’t know if you can see. Councilman Laufenburger: That’s to the north. Kate Aanenson: Yep. Councilman Laufenburger: Yeah. That’s to the east. Kate Aanenson: Yeah. I’ll have another drawing here that will show it. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay, is there, oh okay. Alright. Kate Aanenson: So this is the original and then this was added on where there was already the burials in this, yeah. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. Mayor Furlong: And then question for you too on this picture. Some of the trees have a red label. Some have a black label. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Mayor Furlong: What’s the difference? Kate Aanenson: The red are the ones to be proposed, there are some trees out there that are larger but they’re, they’re fragile. They could fall down. We’ve had a tree fall down out there recently so just looking at that, or they’re not in good healthy shape. Mayor Furlong: So the trees that you looked at, if I’m doing my quick count, the red ones number about 8 or 9 or something. 7 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Kate Aanenson: Correct. Approximately. Mayor Furlong: Okay, and those would be, the proposal is for them to be preserved or. Kate Aanenson: Yeah. Trimmed up if necessary but preserved correct. And getting a lot of the buckthorn that’s out there cleared up. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Kate Aanenson: And I’ll show you on this, some of those trees are in this green area right here so if you look at in the staff report, we identify there’s 720 graves in this area that’s kind of the yellow, but of that 720 only 612 are actually being used. Some of them are, have existing trees or encumbered otherwise so this green area is where on the south and then the east is where there’s clearly right now a lot of buckthorn and some undesirable trees. Councilman Laufenburger: And of the green, the green is platted for grave sites? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Correct. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. And have any of those been sold? Kate Aanenson: I don’t think so. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. Kate Aanenson: So what we’re talking about then is this red area for continuation of development so that’s approximately, if you took the dimensions of the site along this is about 275 feet here so that we’re talking the 60 feet in additional right here so there is a property corner here which we talked about. When this subdivision, Lukewood Drive put in, a retaining wall was put in place and that retaining wall plunked right over the property corner right here so one of our recommendations would then be to actually resurvey that and get that corner pin marked out there so we would know the, identify the limitations of that property corner. So within that then we would work to create additional buffer along this property. There’s probably about 10 feet in there and along this property line here to provide additional buffering. Again working with the neighbors to find out the adequate screening. The best places for those trees where we’ve done that, or shrubs for view sheds and the like to see where the best place for those would be. We talked about the economic, kind of the cost summary that we looked at and we talked about a little bit of surveying other cities so I think the main point here is that the cemetery itself operates in the positive and we expect that to be true going forward into the future so our intent is to look at a rate for the, a change in revenue for the rate that we charge resident and non-resident rate so that was factored into the formula itself here. The resident rate and then the non-residential rate per plot. And then looking at those rates we went through and looked at our key financial cities and looked at what they were charging for the plots itself. So I didn’t include that. It is in your packet but if you had questions on that I can go through that or the City Manager can talk to that too so again operating in the positive. We believe that will continue into the future so with the outcome of that we would continue to work with the neighborhood. I’ll go to the recommendation then. We’d want to survey the property. Work on the tree removal and the grading and get the perimeter landscaped immediately as that, as soon as we would clean it and then again work with the neighbors and then we talked about that drive, the main drive so people could park in there without backing out. That we create some sort of a turn around or a hammer head at the end of that and then we’d establish fees for the graves. $200 for Chanhassen residents and $500 for non-residents. We often have family members here that want their parents at this cemetery closer so with that I’d be happy to answer any questions that you have. 8 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Mayor Furlong: Thank you, questions for staff. Councilwoman Ernst. Councilwoman Ernst: So Kate can you talk a little bit more about the parking because I know that there were some concerns with the parking. Kate Aanenson: Yeah right now people park along this street right here and then they would park, there’s a driveway here, we would continue that and then put somewhere in here a turn around. Again most, because there’s no lights at this cemetery you know it’s pretty low key. We talk about there’s 6-8 burials a year so you don’t have normally, that doesn’t mean people aren’t visiting but you wouldn’t have the same number of people as you would go for a burial. As you would that someone would want to go place flowers or go visit a grave. That’s you know one or maybe two cars that would come sporadically but as far as the burial itself would be different. Councilwoman Ernst: So was it the logistics of the parking or was it the capacity of the parking that was the concern? Kate Aanenson: Well I think some of it people commented on the striping itself but we believe you know if there is a larger group they typically contact with the sheriff’s office just as they would at the St. Hubert’s Cemetery if they needed extra security or extra parking controls or something like that. Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. And staff feels that there’s, that it’s very adequate? Kate Aanenson: For the few times. Councilwoman Ernst: The way it’s designed. Kate Aanenson: For the six times a year, yes. Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Other questions? Mr. Laufenburger. Councilman Laufenburger: Thank you Mr. Mayor. Kate can you just talk a little bit about, you use the term buffering versus the term setback. Is there any setback requirements along these property lines? Kate Aanenson: No, not by ordinance. No. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. Kate Aanenson: This is governed by the city ordinance so it’s, was incorporated back when the City adopted a separate regulatory control on that and that’s Chapter 8 of the City Code. Cemetery, there was no setback for any buffer setback. Councilman Laufenburger: So the buffer, the buffer is not required. Kate Aanenson: The way our zoning ordinance reads today, no. Between low density land uses. But again we, you know there’s a visual impact certainly recognize going both ways. Councilman Laufenburger: Sure. 9 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Kate Aanenson: Someone in their back yard looking across or in their front yard looking across or someone that would be in the cemetery looking across at an active area so I think just putting some landscaping in there. Councilman Laufenburger: So your plans essentially include using the property as shown here on the screen. Using the property up to the property line except 10 feet of buffer on the east side and the south side, is that correct? Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Councilman Laufenburger: And how about the north side? Kate Aanenson: The north side the plots go right to the property line on that side. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. And those are, those are grave plots that have been in place for a long, long time, right? Kate Aanenson: The yellow ones would be, yes. Councilman Laufenburger: Yeah the yellow ones. Okay. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Laufenburger: So the green and red which you show are just following that same line. Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. Alright. Kate, you talked about, in the report you talked about an anticipated rate of usage that essentially if we build out the green and the red this will go for about 27 years approximately depending upon. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. Sales of course and how many people go in there. After that how would you, how would you support the maintenance of the cemetery? Would it just be maintained by city staff? Kate Aanenson: Correct. That’s how it is today. Councilman Laufenburger: And today the cemetery is a property. The City hires city staff or we don’t hire them but we incur the cost of maintaining by using city staff, meaning park and recreation for mowing and stuff like that. Kate Aanenson: That’s correct and that was built into that cost summary, yes. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. And also if somebody in the winter somebody wants to open a site, is that opening of the hole to bury an individual, that is a cost incurred by the people who own the lot is that correct? Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. 10 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. Okay. That was all I had for right now. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Other questions? Councilman McDonald. Councilman McDonald: Kate you talk about the fee being $200 and $500. Are those one time fees or are they continuing fees? Kate Aanenson: I’m not sure. Todd Gerhardt: It would be a one time fee for the plot and then there are some additional costs to locate the plot corners and that’s the, I think it’s the $50 for that and then the funeral director, or whatever funeral home that they may work with, there’s additional cost in digging the grave and any special patrol of officers that is needed. Councilman McDonald: Okay, but there’s no annual fee for like maintenance or any of those things, is that right? Todd Gerhardt: No. Councilman McDonald: Okay. Now the other thing within the red zone is where, well I guess the red and the green zone is where most of the trees are at. By the time that we would take those down, is it also your plan to kind of redo the landscaping that you know we could now either sod or so grass seed and actually grow some grass in that area? Kate Aanenson: Correct. I think the best way to do it is to, to grade it now and then get the re-establish the trees as soon as possible instead of trying to do it incrementally. Trying to get in there and so you’ve got that. Everybody knows what they agreed to. What works for buffering and get in there and grade it. Get the seed established. Councilman McDonald: Okay. That’s all the questions I have. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any other questions at this time? Ms. Aanenson, just a few questions. Follow-up questions. There is no lighting currently in the cemetery, is that correct? Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Mayor Furlong: And there’s no proposal at this time to add any lighting. Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. And then with regard to the landscaping along the east and southern property lines, is it your expectation to work with the neighbors to identify where in terms of the location of the types of either shrubs or trees that would be part of that landscaping. That buffer. Kate Aanenson: Yes. It would be our goal then to have a neighborhood meeting and then those that have the visual impact, to work to try to provide the best location of vegetation for those purposes. Mayor Furlong: Is it part of the plan to completely obstruct the view of the, from the, along those… Kate Aanenson: Well the best we can I think we want to look at, to make it also aesthetically pleasing you know so, yeah. 11 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Mayor Furlong: So it could include perhaps some shrubs. Some overstory trees along the property line. Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Mayor Furlong: Might be some of the options. Kate Aanenson: Yes because I think in the summer it’s you know, you obviously see less of it so trying to do all deciduous, I’m not sure, you know try to find that right mix. Working with the City Forester on that recommendation. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Can we talk a little bit more about the columbarium and just the thoughts there. And that’s obviously not included in this site plan currently. Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. Mayor Furlong: So that might be something that we’d have to. Kate Aanenson: Something we would come back in the future. Mayor Furlong: We could come back and talk about. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, just to get your thoughts on that and then we would come back at a future date with more information about that. Cost and that sort of thing so. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Kate Aanenson: So just kind of maybe just a read if that’s something that you may want to consider. Mayor Furlong: Currently if someone chooses cremation they’re buried in half of a grave plot correct? Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. And only 2 per grave. Mayor Furlong: Okay, and with the picture in our staff report it looks like for the land area there’d be much more availability for these niches, or there’d be more niches for the given area taken up by the columbarium than half of a grave site. Todd Gerhardt: That’s correct and you know a columbarium can be built to whatever size that you feel is appropriate and if this is something the council would like to see incorporated as we work with the neighborhood down the line on landscaping, maybe discussions with them on location also would be part of that discussion. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Thank you. Councilman Laufenburger: Mr. Mayor? Mayor Furlong: Yes. Councilman Laufenburger: Just a comment on that. I think the some sort of accommodation for what seems to be a trend towards cremation would be very appropriate. I’d like to have some facts, whether it be from funeral directors or people who know the business. You know what’s the trend? What’s the pace 12 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 at which cremation is being you know considered as an alternative but I think that just considering, if its’ done well and done in a very solemn way I think this columbarium, which is a new word for me. I always thought it was a mausoleum but I mean words change. I mean selfie wasn’t in the dictionary a month ago right? So I think that, I think it’s consideration that I’d like to give that some real strong consideration so thank you Kate for offering that up. Councilman McDonald: Mr. Mayor? Mayor Furlong: Mr. McDonald. Councilman McDonald: The question I would have on that, is it possible to build that as part of a wall at the back side and incorporate all that into it and that also could be used as part of a buffering between the properties? Kate Aanenson: I think that’s something we’d probably want to work with adjoining property owners to see, for visual impact where it might be a good spot for that. If that’s something that would maybe have a few more visitors. Maybe be more centralized so that’s something we would again I think to Councilman Laufenburger’s point, I think finding out more where the trends, the size and trying to, what that means as far as you know where that would be best suited on the site. Councilman McDonald: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Another question with regard to finances, and you brought up the information. I know that was a question that was asked at the Planning Commission. About the costs and either Mr. Gerhardt or Ms. Aanenson, can you give us a quick summary of the analysis and from a high level standpoint and the results of your estimate? Todd Gerhardt: Sure. Well using the current rates you would have about $64,800 dollars in additional revenue that would be derived over the 27 years, and that’s basically following the current pattern of one grave per month. That’s what we’ve been averaging for the past 15 years and if you go with the proposed rate change and just using two-thirds is residents and a third is non-resident, going with $500 per plot and $200 per plot for a resident and the $500 for non-resident, that would get you at $98,400. To develop the project you’re looking at approximately $12,000. Site prep, survey costs and landscaping. Long term maintenance, we’re looking at currently it’s about $722 a year or $1.18 per grave and then adding the 324 additional graves, that would drive it up to about $1,100. And it takes about 2 hours for the crew to mow and prep the site. It’s in our rotation for mowing like our neighborhood parks and so we use a lot of summer help in handling that. Currently we have about $38,850 in grave or plot sales from 1999 to 2013. We did make some capital improvements. The arch. The lettering. The landscaping. Stone work to the entry to the cemetery and that dollars were spent out of current reserves of $28,556. So currently using today’s dollars you have about $58,250 cash on hand. You take into account previous capital projects. The expansion or development of the rest of the cemetery, you’re at $56,924 so that leaves you a net $1,325. But what was not taken into account were the additional 12 years between 1999 and ’87 when the City took the cemetery over, and that roughly using $200 and 12 plots per year is an additional $28,800 so you do have after the development out of the cemetery you do have roughly $30,000 cash on hand. Mayor Furlong: And going forward the annual revenue less the annual expenses, there’s a surplus there? Todd Gerhardt: Correct. Mayor Furlong: A projected surplus on an annual basis. 13 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Todd Gerhardt: Yes. Projected revenue. Mayor Furlong: I think it’s just at the bottom of this screen. Councilman Laufenburger: $1,300? Todd Gerhardt: Yes. I kind of added that into my $28,800 to the $30,000. Mayor Furlong: Okay, and that would be on an annual, on a per year basis. Annual basis. I know that was a question asked at the Planning Commission but they didn’t have the information for it so I wanted to. Kate Aanenson: Yeah and it’s typically, the Planning Commission doesn’t usually get into the economic part of it so we. Mayor Furlong: Fully understand. Kate Aanenson: Left that up for the City Council. Mayor Furlong: More of a use. Property use standpoint. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Thank you. There was a public hearing held at the Planning Commission. We’ve certainly read those comments as well. As well as the comments from the planning commissioners. This is not a public hearing but I guess my question is if there’s anything, new information from members of the public based upon what was presented tonight that they’d like to provide comments on, we’d certainly take public comments. Mr. Allen, if you’d like to come to the podium. Doug Allen: Mayor, council members, good evening. My name’s Doug Allen. I live at 2250 Lukewood Drive which is on the southern edge of the property. Couple quick points and then just one thing in the motion that I would like to clarify or get some assurances on. The motion, well first of all my point is. I think that the economics are, I think the plots are priced way below market. Is there anything that would prevent any individual or group of individuals from buying all of them in mass at one time? Mayor Furlong: Mr. Gerhardt, do you want to talk a little bit about the, and the policies for resale there as well? Todd Gerhardt: Anybody buying a plot has to get a title from the City. You can not resale the lots without the City’s approval so the City basically has the first option to purchase the plot back from the family. Doug Allen: Alright. Mayor Furlong: And just to clarify, we purchase, the City has the right to purchase it back at either the cost paid or the current cost whichever is lower so there’s no opportunities for investments here. Doug Allen: Okay. I noticed in the comparisons, the average of the other comparison lots, many of which seem to be church owned. There’s about $650, somewhere in that neighborhood and then just on 14 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 my own research and plots that my family has elsewhere, the market really seems to be more in the $1,500 up to some that my family own that are $4,000. Why so low? I mean that’s a question that I have I think from a revenue standpoint for the City that’s probably too low. And then does that change the rate then at which these will sell if they were priced more fairly in the market so I think that should be factored in and taken into consideration. And then my other concern that I have as a property owner, the motion says that, it does say installation of a landscape buffer on the southern, eastern and southern property lines but the report really just speaks to, we’ll try to do it. We’ll work with the City. Can we get some assurances that there will be a buffer, especially from my point of view, on the southern edge. We’d like to make sure that the language in the motion is a little stronger that says, that will be done versus the report which really just says, we’ll look at it. So those are the concerns. Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Ms. Aanenson. Kate Aanenson: …when it went to Planning Commission. The motion as proposed up here that says installation of landscape buffer. If Mayor if you, you know we could modify that to say you know work with the neighbors too. Doug Allen: And that’s fine. I mean I like that wording because it gets stronger. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, we changed that from the Planning Commission. Doug Allen: And I just want… Kate Aanenson: Our intent is to work with the neighbors to get that. Doug Allen: Yeah, that is stronger than the report says. The report’s a little bit softer so… Mayor Furlong: Well for clarification as well, just to be clear that a buffer doesn’t necessarily mean completely. Doug Allen: Right. No, no I understand that. Mayor Furlong: Visual obstruction and that you won’t see anything so. But it’s working to see where’s the best place to maybe plant some bushes or some trees and what works for both sides. People at the cemetery as well as the neighbors. Doug Allen: And just as a point, the City’s getting a good deal on whoever’s doing their tree service because I saw there’s 22 or 24 trees that need to be removed and I just had trees removed from my yard at a cost of $800 per tree and mathematically at the retail rate that’d be about $20,000 to remove those trees and I think there’s only $5,000 in the report so that’s a good deal. Kate Aanenson: We do a lot of tree removal and we do a lot of tree pruning in the city so we have competitive bids. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Jan Johnson: Good evening. I’m Jan Johnson. I live at 8120 Pinewood so we’re the property directly east, if you could show actually that picture. One of the comments I’d like to readdress is the parking. So the picture that’s actually shown there was taken quite a while ago. That road, Galpin was redone so there is now a turn lane down the middle of that highway so the shoulders are no longer wide enough to park on so the parking plan as I read it in the document is that directly in front of the cemetery it’s a 15 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 surmountable curb so there are a few number of cars that could pull up on the boulevard to park and there’s no other parking that is wide enough for a car on any of the side streets or the rest of Galpin around that so that’s a very, I think a high concern. That’s a 45 mile an hour road so having people park on the curb, in the road, 45 miles an hour I think is just not a good situation or safety issue for the residents as well as the people attending funerals so. I also just want to make a point that the cemetery’s very quaint. It is a pioneer cemetery. There are re-enactments. Taking all of the trees and the natural buffer in terms of the shrubs away from that is a big change to that cemetery so I don’t know if you all have had an opportunity to be in that cemetery but it would, excuse me. I have a cold. It would very much change the look of that cemetery and the natural canopy of the trees and the shade around those properties as well as the cemetery so there’s something about putting a 10 foot buffer right in terms of you know 10 feet of landscaping is not the same as having 30 feet or more of natural wooded buffer so I think if people could just consider that in terms of not only what it’s doing to the properties around but how much it’s changing the cemetery itself. As well as the loss of 24 trees so thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Councilman Laufenburger: Ms. Aanenson, just a comment on Ms. Johnson’s question. Are there any parking restrictions on the north side of Lukewood Drive? Kate Aanenson: It’s a public street so there’s no parking, yeah. Councilman Laufenburger: So it’s a public street. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. So that means no parking restrictions at this time? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay. Mayor Furlong: And I think the same is true on Galpin isn’t that right? Paul Oehme: Correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Okay, thank you. Any other comments that weren’t included at the Planning Commission? John Noller: Council members, Mayor, thank you for your time. Mayor Furlong: Good evening. John Noller: My name’s John Noller. I live at 2381 Timberwood Drive. I’m the guy just to the north and first and foremost, if moving forward, if you guys do approve this plan I would very, I would like you guys to consider very much adding some buffer also to the north. There are several trees that will be removed in the green and red area and that would certainly decrease, I mean it would make viewing that much worst for us and I think that if everybody else is getting some buffer, we should probably get a little buffer as well. At least some consideration for it. Mayor Furlong: Question for you. 16 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 John Noller: Yep. Mayor Furlong: There’s a fence line behind your house, is that correct? John Noller: That’s our fence, yep. Mayor Furlong: That’s your fence? Is that at the property line or is that inside? John Noller: It’s just inside our property line. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. So there’s already some trees and along the entire section there, are there not? John Noller: There are thinning and as you move further back where the green and red areas are, that is much more dense and so if you are going to be removing trees there you’re now removing density from that area. Mayor Furlong: Okay. John Noller: And just a quick comment about, and I just want to clarify something. Low density for your purposes means that it’s low traffic, correct? Mayor Furlong: Ms. Aanenson, if you want to correct that. It’s the number of homes per acre I believe. Kate Aanenson: And it also would be you know looking at the type of use and how it’s being used. Again there’s no night time traffic there. You know typically when you have a single family house that generates the most trips, people coming and going throughout the day so there’s not as many trips to this site as there would be too. John Noller: We spend a lot of time on our deck, which is looking straight over the cemetery and there are a lot of people that go through that. It’s a very cool thing to see. A lot of our neighbors making trips through the cemetery. Whether it’s on evening walks in the summertime so it’s fairly busy. Might not be a lot of burials there but there is a fair amount of foot traffic and I just should make you guys away of that because we’re out there pretty much every night. At least during the summertime. Not now. Councilman Laufenburger: Mr. Noller you said that’s cool. Does that mean you like to see the traffic? John Noller: I think it’s great that it’s being used. If the cemetery’s there and we enjoy the cemetery being there. There’s a lot of history. I’ve taken my daughter over there and it’s great to go over and talk about the history and the story behind the cemetery. I think it’s great that it’s being there. I just don’t think that when you have a historical piece like that, I just don’t think it needs to be expanded upon and Walmartized if you will. Sometimes bigger is not better. Councilman Laufenburger: I’m trying to understand. Do you object to seeing the people in the cemetery? John Noller: No, I think it’s great that people are in there seeing what’s there already. Councilman Laufenburger: When you’re on your deck, do you object to seeing the people in the cemetery? 17 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 John Noller: No. Councilman Laufenburger: Okay, thank you. John Noller: A point that I’d like to make that I didn’t bring up at the Planning Commission is that when our daughter was born 7 years ago I started to look into our drinking water because like many of our neighbors, actually all of our neighbors in the Timberwood area, we’re on wells. With the addition of 324 grave sites being added, I’m sure you guys have done an environmental impact study on how these graves, additional graves will affect our drinking water. Yes? Kate Aanenson: I don’t believe they’re deep enough to affect your drinking water. John Noller: So the study has been done? Kate Aanenson: I don’t believe there’s an impact. John Noller: Okay, there are several studies out and I’d just like to, if I may quote from one of the studies that talks about how cemeteries can contaminate the ground water. Okay? Mayor Furlong: That’s fine. John Noller: After a while in the ground a body in a coffin will begin to decay. Mayor Furlong: Excuse me. John Noller: What? Mayor Furlong: Can you reference what you’re reading? John Noller: It’s from the Northern Ireland Environmental Agency. Cemeteries, Burials and the Water Environment. Mayor Furlong: Okay. John Noller: This fluid may contain embalming fluid, pathogens, microbes, nitrogen compounds which could contaminate ground water and in some cases may also pose a health risk if it contaminates a ground water fed drinking source. That’s our wells. As ground water can travel considerable distance underground and with any pollutants it’s necessary to consider the possible risk of ground water contamination when planning new graveyards or cemeteries. So I just, I would submit this to the committee for your perusal and just would like you guys to consider it at least. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. John Noller: I also have a petition signed by 42 individuals who live in the community that surround the cemetery that are opposed to this expansion. Not everybody could make it here tonight but I’d like to also submit that for your perusal as well. Mayor Furlong: Okay. John Noller: And just one last comment. As a neighbor whenever I make changes, particularly the exterior or my grounds of my house, I know that I can do these things but when I do certain things that 18 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 my neighbors can see I ask myself, should I do them and that’s something that I would like the council to consider is not can you. That’s not an argument but it’s should you. Thank you for your time. Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Okay, anyone else? Thank you. Oh! Brian Johnson: My name is Brian Johnson. I live at 8120 Pinewood Circle. I’m the guy that sent you the long, novel email that you may have read in your council packet. Mayor Furlong: Right, I read it. Brian Johnson: And public speaking is really not my thing so you’ll please excuse me if I’m a little uncomfortable up here. I just wanted to come back to the question of the parking because I feel like as I listen here tonight that that issue is kind of getting passed over. Councilwoman Ernst, you asked some great questions about it and maybe I just don’t understand so Councilman Laufenburger you referenced it too. Currently out there today, and again if you do look at that picture that’s up on the screen now, that is an old picture. I parked my Nissan Murano in front of this cemetery last week and it doesn’t fit in the parking lane there so as I understood the plan as it stands today, people would be expected to just drive up on the median, or not the median but they’d be, people would be expected to drive up on the boulevard and park there. There’s, we looked at it tonight on the way over. It looks like there’s in front of the, immediately in front of the cemetery there’s maybe room for 6 cars and the rest of the parking in the plan is said to be on the west side of Galpin where there’s a high curb. You can’t park there either so I’m really struggling with how this plan is in the interest of public safety, how you would, if you’re going to add 300 grave sites, you’re now going to have, you’re going to have funerals with 20, 30, 50 cars. I don’t know where you’re going to safely put them so I guess my, I would really ask you to consider from, again from a safety perspective where will you put a hearse and 20 or 30 or 40 cars for a cemetery, for a funeral. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. A couple quick questions, follow-up for staff. Thank you Mr. Johnson. What’s the, where do the cars park now? Todd Gerhardt: In Galpin. Some of the vehicles will pull up into the cemetery driveway and I would say, I know I’ve been out there for one funeral and the hearse pulled up there and so, history has shown that they have parked on Galpin and it’s worked for years and again if there’s concerns we can work with Carver County Sheriff’s office to have individuals out there. Typically a funeral will last anywhere from you know half hour to an hour and so, you know all I can say is that we’ve already sold plots. There’s going to be a funeral 6 to 8 times a year, every year for several years going into the future so you know with the new striping we’ll have to work with it and we can work with Carver County Engineer and if we have to put out temporary signs for parking or have some type of traffic control. Mayor Furlong: Okay. How wide is Galpin there? Approximately. Because you’ve got the two lanes. You’ve got the center turn and then you’ve got some shoulder. Todd Gerhardt: Oh, what is it? Paul Oehme: I imagine it’s probably, I don’t know 45, 48 feet wide. Mayor Furlong: 45, 48. I’m seeing the County engineers nodding their heads so you did pretty good Paul. Okay. Okay. So what I think affected the striping, and Mr. Johnson he raises this point, is the fact that now there’s a center turn lane section that’s in there from a striping standpoint that wasn’t there before but I think from a width of the road that the width didn’t get narrowed at all with the recent County project, did it? 19 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 Paul Oehme: Correct, no. The curb lines have not changed. The existing curb lines that are there today so. Mayor Furlong: Okay, so it’s just where the striped drive aisles are, drive lanes. Paul Oehme: Correct. Mayor Furlong: Are at this point that changed but the width is the same. Okay. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council. In going out and checking the new striping, pulled off to the side of the shoulder on the west side of Galpin and the experience of the cars coming from the north going south moved over into that turn lane to avoid us getting out of our vehicles so people made adjustments to us. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Councilwoman Ernst. Councilwoman Ernst: So Todd can you tell, and I’d like to go back to Mr. Johnson’s concerns when he mentioned you know 6 cars at the most can park out there right now. But with Galpin what do you, and what’s your anticipation as to how many cars? Is it 20-30 cars with a hearse? I mean is that, is that pushing it or is that? Todd Gerhardt: No. I mean you have the whole west side for people to park and one of the benefits of the striping has allowed you additional parking from basically the entrance to the cemetery up to where Timberwood is and you know, so that gives you another additional parking there. Councilwoman Ernst: And the 45 miles per hour road that we talked about that we don’t think that there’s a risk there with the, I mean I realize we can’t do anything about the speed but with the road and the design of the road and where that is with that speed limit we don’t, you don’t foresee any? Todd Gerhardt: No, the road is designed for 45 miles an hour speed limit so you know again if it becomes one where we need to have law enforcement out there, that’s something we may have to add. All I can do is base it on history and it’s worked over the years. We haven’t had any complaints. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Anybody else for public comment that wasn’t brought up at the Planning Commission? Okay, thank you very much. I appreciate those comments and also want to thank the people that came to the Planning Commission as well for bringing their concerns to light. With that let’s bring it back to council then for comments and discussion. Councilman Laufenburger. Councilman Laufenburger: Thank you Mr. Mayor. I think the, while I recognize the striping may cause a visual constraint to people when they park, the design of Galpin, and I don’t think it was a County design but the way the road lays out, there is great visibility both from the north headed south and also from the south headed north in that you’re coming from an elevated position and there’s a little bit of a curve so there is nobody, if they’re paying any attention driving from about 200 to 250 yards away, there’s nobody that would miss the presence of cars parked on either the east or the west side of Galpin for the, for visiting the cemetery. Also I think it’s important to note that it’s not just funerals at which this cemetery th gets busy. It’s busy for both Memorial Day, Veterans Day, July 4 so there are other activities there but I would agree with Mr. Gerhardt that any concerns about parking certainly can be addressed by public safety. By temporary signage and I can’t imagine a hearse parking on Galpin, if they’re going to be putting a casket in the ground up by the red things. They’re going to take that hearse up there and ask the pallbearers to walk you know 10 feet across level ground instead of 270 feet from Galpin so I think that, at least from my perspective based on the history and based on the funerals that I’ve observed, I’m not saying parking won’t be a problem. I think it will be manageable. Ms. Aanenson, can you speak to this, 20 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 and I wish Lieutenant Enevold was here, has there been any reports of vandalism in the cemetery do you know? Kate Aanenson: I can’t comment on that. I don’t know if the City Manager knows. Todd Gerhardt: There’s been a few where people bring flowers and wreaths out there that are either missing or have been taken and there may have been some brass type fixtures out there, vases that are missing but nothing significant. Councilman Laufenburger: My guess is they wouldn’t do that more than once probably. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. Councilman Laufenburger: Yeah, okay. Let’s see. Also to Mr. Noller’s comment about ground water, boy I think that there are, isn’t there something in the ordinance Kate that would specify that a casket needs to be put inside a cement vault? Are you familiar with that at all? Kate Aanenson: Yeah. Yeah. The study, yeah. Councilman Laufenburger: So I, while I can’t speak to what practices are in Northern Ireland, I know based on my own experience of burying family, there’s a concrete vault, the casket and then it’s sealed and I just can’t imagine anything in there gets out so while I appreciate the research, I don’t think it’s applicable in this case. That was the only comment I had. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Other thoughts and comments. Councilwoman Ernst. Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah I, you know there are some things that have been raised as concerns that I’d really like staff to check into and I think for the most part you’ve checked into this but the water situation that came up tonight, I think just to make the residents feel at ease and I think it would be good to understand that. Whether or not it’s an issue. It doesn’t sound like it is but I think it would behoove us to check into that and at least put their minds to ease on that. And then with the buffer on the, I think it was the north side that was mentioned, with a fence there is that even possible to put a buffer there? Kate Aanenson: We’d have to look at it to see what the trees are already. I mean if we’re putting trees that we’d have to eliminate other trees so we’d have to look at that. We certainly can look at it. Councilwoman Ernst: Okay, great. And then I like the idea that Mr. Gerhardt had in terms of you know if there’s going to be, and I don’t know how that all works. If there’s going to be a funeral out there. Say there was going to be you know 200 people out there potentially. Working with the sheriff’s department I think is a good idea just to have that traffic control and make sure that we’re doing our due diligence there. And I think that was it. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Other comments? Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah, I’ll go ahead. Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman. Councilwoman Tjornhom: I think most of the issues have been I think discussed. The parking obviously and the buffers. I think the language you seem to work out so it’s stronger and hopefully people’s confidence that the buffers will be able to be put in that everyone’s, everyone will have input on it and be 21 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 satisfied with whatever is put in. But one of the questions that I think struck me is the question of should we do this and I think this is one of those elements of life that we need to deal with as a city. It’s here. We deal with new developments coming in. We deal with retail developments. Parks. Every other aspect of life and this is just another part of life and so yes I do think we should do this and I think that hopefully we’ll be able to make sure that the neighbors surrounding this historic cemetery will be okay with the expansion and how we handle it so I’m in favor of it also. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Other comments? Mr. McDonald. Councilman McDonald: I guess I’ll go next. I did go out and I have visited the site just to kind of look at it and I mean one of the things that kind of gets me is, I don’t think this reflects on the City of Chanhassen very well. I like the plan that staff’s come up with. You do need to remove the trees. You need to go out there and I think you need to make this look a little bit more appealing. It’s very hard scrabble ground. There’s no grass. We could definitely make it a better looking place that would be a little bit more reflective on the City so from that standpoint I mean I’m for removing the trees. I did go back and look and took the chart with me and you’re right. A lot of those, were really probably not desirable trees. They cause more problems than I believe they solve. The ones that you’ve circled as being salvageable, they’re spaced out enough that it would provide shade and some canopy but it would also allow grass to grow. I think basically all you’re asking us to do tonight is just go out there and lay out the dimensions. Put a plan together as far as addressing the issues of buffering and also to some extent parking or at least from the standpoint of being able to gain access to the interior by putting the hammer head drive in there. I think that would help. But I would also hope that the other thing you would do is look at a landscaping so that we could build this up and make it a little bit more appealing than what it is right now. To the question of should we do it? Yes we should do it. It’s part of the heritage of this city and I think we owe it to the people who actually started this back before there were any homes or houses or even the glimmer of Chanhassen that started that cemetery, to upkeep it and to also provide a space for the residents of this community should they so desire that they would like to spend eternity here in Chanhassen. So I do think that we should do it and we owe it to the residents. It’s another option as to again end of life decisions. I think that we can also make this a much more appealing site and I would hope that’s something that the City would look at so I’m in favor of going forward. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. As I looked at the site and visited, tried to get a sense of the plan, as you can see up on the screen right now of the expansion. What I tried to look at is what, consider requests and try to determine whether it’s reasonable for what’s being proposed, and also look at it from the standpoint, not necessarily if the City owned it but if another association owned it and was coming forward with a long term plan, and that’s what I’ve, talking with Mr. Gerhardt initially on this it was my thought that, and I’m glad the way we’ve involved the residents, the neighbors in the public process. I’m glad that we have the comments from the Planning Commission. Comments from the council. Is let’s put together a long range plan for this property so that everybody understands where it’s going to be. It doesn’t all have to happen right away but we need to have a plan in place as a council to allow staff then to know what they can do and what they can’t do. And to basically execute against the plan for a long range standpoint so as I look at this plan, as I look at the use and understanding that this has been a cemetery in this area since the mid 1800’s, you know it certainly seems reasonable with what’s being proposed here as it is. I think you know going out and doing an inventory of the trees and identifying those that are worth saving. That are either substantial at this time or have the potential to become substantial is appropriate. There’s a lot of brush and buckthorn and other stuff out there that yes, for those neighbors whose back yards come up against this property, it does provide a visual barrier and I understand that. There will be change if you take that out but I still think even though it’s not required to put a landscaping buffer in there, I think we can do something from a landscaping along the property lines, especially the east and southern and you know the gentleman to the north, I think staff can look at that. There seemed to be quite a bit there already so I’m not sure what’s going to be cleared there or not. I think it’s a function as the staff gets out 22 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 there and looks at it whether something needs to be done, but I don’t think there should be an expectation, as I’ve mentioned a couple times, that it should be a complete, that the landscaping’s going to completely obstruct the view of the property from people on north, south, east or west side of the property but I think we certainly can, and I would encourage staff to work with those neighbors closest to see what can be done to try to accommodate their requests. With the columbarium, I think that’s a very reasonable and appropriate use. I think to Councilman Laufenburger’s comments about trends, it’s my understanding that cremation as a choice has increased over time and it also provides better utilization of the property without necessarily taking up more space or getting, putting grave sites closer to the property line so I think there’s some value there. In terms of the internal hammer head, having to back down the driveway after I went out there, I would strongly recommend that and that just seems to me to be appropriate because I think as was mentioned the hearse would certainly like to drive up into the cemetery. There has to be a reasonable way for people to turn around so I think that can be part of the site plan, which I don’t think is incorporated here into this nor is the columbarium incorporated into there. I think both of those can be incorporated in to make the site more usable. Both from those that are visiting as well as during funerals, internments and then also to incorporate the columbarium in the appropriate side. The question Mr. Allen brought up the question of the rates at $200 per site and $500. Typically we charge a different price for residents for a service such as at the Rec Center than for non-residents when there are other costs being covered by your taxes. Here that’s not really the case since the money that’s being generated by the sale of the plots is generating the funds to operate in the long term. At the same time I can understand where that might be a desire from a pricing standpoint, if we priced it appropriately to have more sites available for residents and so I can understand it from that standpoint but I do think that the rate at $200 is too low based upon the market information that we had and we can certainly look at that but something in the $300 to $400 dollar range for the resident would seem to be more appropriate based upon the information of what other cities and the cemeteries that they operate for, so I think the differential here can be more appropriate because we want to have a space for Chanhassen residents. I have received calls from residents since this was noticed and at the Planning Commission meeting as well as discussed in the newspaper a couple times who would very much like to be able to buy a plot and currently they’re not able to do that so I think there is a reasonable expectation, a reasonable use that does fit here so I would agree with moving forward with the utilization of the property that’s being proposed here with the adjustments that we may lose some of these sites because of the columbarium being included, depending upon it’s size and location with the hammer head but I think those again would offset and be reasonable. As for the economics of the columbarium, I would think that that’s a pretty simple math. Once we figure out where it’s going to be and what the cost is at the time we build it, divide it by the number of niches and that’s going to give you a price for the niche. I mean that shouldn’t be a net cost to the City. It should be something that is appropriate to, and I’m sure is the way that other cemeteries work that too so the economics must work since it’s working in the marketplace as well so, overall I’m in favor of this. I would like to see some of these things such as a revised site plan complete with the request for the platting of the new sites as well as some ideas of the landscaping that’s going to take place. The columbarium on the site. I’d like to get that back sooner rather than later and I would hope that perhaps in the first quarter of next year, by the end of March those meetings can be had with the neighbors. The plans can be drawn up and we can have something back in front of the council. I don’t, I think the direction here, what I’m hearing is more comments of support with some questions. The parking issue which I think was mentioned, let’s look at that. Let’s figure out the best way to do but I mean the cars have been parking along that road. What’s different is the striping and I recognize that. The striping has changed and the drive lanes are closer to the curbs along Galpin so I think we you know, let’s work with the County. I don’t know that there needs to be changes there given the volume of activity but let’s just make sure we know when you bring it back what the plan is for parking along there but I think it can be done safely in part because it has been being done safely with the internments that have taken place and funerals. To my knowledge we haven’t had problems out there but it’s reasonable to look at so with that, unless are there other comments at this time or other requests? I mean we have a motion before us that 23 Chanhassen City Council – November 25, 2013 we can either table this or just, do we need to take action in the form of tabling or is the direction just back to, based on comments tonight, bring it back at a future meeting? Todd Gerhardt: I think we got clear direction from the council. I don’t think you need to have a formal motion on it and we’ll work with the neighborhood and bring back a final plan. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Very good. Thank you everybody. Appreciate your involvement and we’ll look forward to seeing the final plan back. I hope and expect within the first quarter of next year. Let’s move on to the next item under our agenda this evening. CHANHASSEN GREAT PLAINS CENTER, 7905 GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD: SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 10,500 SQ. FT. SINGLE LEVEL RETAIL CENTER, APPLICANT: NHH CHANHASSEN PARTNERS, LLC/OWNER: CAMELOT CONVENIENCE QUALITY FUEL AND FOODS. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. The Great Plains Center project case did appear before the Planning th Commission at their November 5 meeting. Also at that meeting the Planning Commission supported the project 5 to 0. Really had no concerns. They were very excited to see the project and was very supportive of it. So again the site location is the old British Petroleum gas station there. Again. Mayor Furlong: Can you switch? Kate Aanenson: I’m sorry. Mayor Furlong: Those are pretty bricks and I’m sure we’ll talk about them soon. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, 7905 Great Plains Boulevard. Yeah. Yeah. Mayor Furlong: Okay, here we go. Kate Aanenson: So this is the British Petroleum gas station. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Kate Aanenson: The gas station itself goes back a number of years. Actually probably been there about 25 years. Changed different types of uses but it’s been there long term and made some modifications to it but the site itself is on the, bordered on the north by a car wash, the Valvoline and then you’ve got the Master Collision and the Hanus building also on that northern side. Then you’ve got auto repair and a Holiday across the street so this is in our Business Highway zoning district so it is a permitted use in the thth zoning district. On April 9, this wasn’t in your staff report but on May 9 of 2011 there was an approval for a C-store at this gas station so the pumps, but that was never final. Or it was final but it was never recorded so it has no legal standing but it was difficult for that project to advance forward. A lot of people had tried different things so it never went to fruition. That also included a double car wash besides a C-store. So for the existing conditions, the current access is off of Great Plains Boulevard right here. This intersection here, when we were first approached by the user was a little bit of concern just based on the sight lines and the amount of traffic as you come off of Highway 5 accelerating up onto a single lane there on Great Plains. So again current access, you have two way directional. A little bit wider than we would normally see on that site. Again I mentioned that the land use and the zoning is consistent for this project to go forward. Highway Business and again it’s going to replace one retail for another type of retail. So the proposal summary, 10,443 square foot of a multi-tenant single story building. Again it’s a permitted use in the zoning district. There’s an existing trail along Highway 5. We’re including new 24