PRC 2004 02 24CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 24, 2004
Chairman Stolar called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Glenn Stolar, Paula Atkins, Amy O'Shea, and Tom Kelly
MEMBERS ABSENT: Susan Robinson and Jack Spizale
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; and Jerry Ruegemer,
Recreation Superintendent
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Kelly moved, Atkins seconded to approve the agenda
as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of
4to0.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Stolar: Any public announcements? Jerry, Todd? Commissioner members.
Hoffman: Skating rinks are closed.
Stolar: End of season closed?
Hoffman: End of season closed. Just so the commission is aware.
Stolar: Should we have a report from you sometime, March or so to let us know how
some of the changes we did.
Hoffman: Yep, we'll have that.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: O'Shea moved, Kelly seconded to approve the
summary and verbatim minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting
dated January 24, 2004 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0.
ESTABLISH CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL CONCERNING PARKS AND
TRAILS, SETTLERS WEST SUBDIVISION REOUEST.
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Stolar, members of the commission. Settlers West is a very
interest single family housing subdivision request by Pemtom Land Company. We have
Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Justin Larson with us this evening from Sathre-Berquist and he'll go through a brief
overview of the project. It's interesting, well I'll let you explain it.
Justin Larson: Again my name is Justin Larson and I'm with Sathre-Berquist. We're the
engineers and surveyors that for the most part spearheaded this project. I'm here
representing Dan Herbst of Pemtom Land Company. Just again a brief overview of the
project. It shares two municipalities, Eden Prairie and Chanhassen and the project
proposes to develop 48 lots in Chanhassen and 11 to 13 of them in Eden Prairie,
depending on some of the outstanding issues having to deal with wetlands and access.
The site here is a geographically remote piece of Chanhassen. We're seeking to get a
comprehensive plan amendment to get it into the MUSA. It's zoned currently for
agricultural and we're trying to get it rezoned to RSF, residential single family. What's
driving that is we have an opportunity to enter into a joint powers agreement with Eden
Prairie that would allow us to provide utilities, sanitary sewer and watermain to this
development. If it was to come from Chanhassen, it would be very cost prohibitive and
require probably a lot of, ! guess it would probably involve a lot of upgrades to the
current infrastructure along Pioneer Trail. So the idea is that we use what's available to
us through infrastructure from Eden Prairie to get this project rolling. Again it's
geographically remote. It's located in an area, if anybody's familiar with this area, it's
down in the south east corner of Chanhassen in which there' s a lot of strange topography
in the form of bluffs and steep slope and the Hennepin County Regional railway, which is
the LRT track right there. And Moon Valley which happens to have chopped into a large
portion of the site just south of us, and the idea is to, as part of developing this land, the
developer enters into an agreement to do some other work south of us to the Moon
Valley. Preserve those slopes and correct some of the erosion that's taking place there.
Stolar: You mean to preserve that area and make it more stable?
Justin Larson: That's right. Stabilize that area. It's, right now ! think it's much of the
slopes are just open to the elements. It's all sand from mining activities that have taken
place there so.
Stolar: Would that be set aside then as land or is that future development?
Justin Larson: That would be future development, yeah. That's not part of this Settlers
West project. It's more of an agreement that once this goes through, that work will take
place there, so an erosion control plan will be drafted to deal with that issue.
Hoffman: And the rifle range would discontinue.
Justin Larson: ! should add, that's right the rifle range which is currently being used, will
discontinue, along with the removal of a cell phone tower. And that's located on here.
The cell phone tower that's located kind of up towards the Eden Prairie line here. Up,
right about here. If you guys can see that. Do you understand what we're looking at
here? Here's the north and this is where the cell phone tower is and Moon Valley site is
here. There's the end of the mine right there. We have a lot of bluffs. You can see this
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
area right here is bluffs. We've got bluffs here and we have an area here that's also
bluffs. Some of the issues we're dealing with right now, wetlands of course. Probably as
always trying to protect natural resources, wetlands and trees. We have storm water
ponds that we continue to work with the city and come up with a good storm water
management plan. We're here to talk about trails obviously tonight. ! don't know, let me
know if I'm stealing any of your thunder here.
Hoffman: No, go for it.
Justin Larson: Todd and ! have talked about this as well is, I've talked to Dale Miller
over at Three Rivers Parks and Recreation, ! think that's what they're called. They're the
ones who are basically taking care of the LRT corridor, and the idea is we want to
provide access for the residents of this development and the development to the east of
us, the Settlers Ridge development, which also was developed by our client, Pemtom
Land Company. We're looking at providing an access to this corridor right here at this
northern corner, probably the northwest corner of the property. There's a gas line
easement right there. We're hoping to provide a trail between these lots. This is really
probably the only feasible place to put a trail that would allow the residents to get down
here. The reason being that this is very extreme slopes here along the back edge leading
down to the LRT corridor. The city has talked to, Chanhassen has worked with Eden
Prairie to come up with a connection here to the Richard T. Anderson Conservation Area,
and they've discussed connecting here on Lot 25 to that, to the trail system there which
we run, either an outlot and easement here to connect to Settlers Court which is this cul-
de-sac and then from that point, through sidewalks on one side of the street or another, all
the way up to, make this connection. Or extend it all the way up here. Depending on if
we have a sidewalk here on Explorer Trail which is the development again to the east of
us, or... sidewalk would extend and later connect to any upgrades to Pioneer Trail that
would bring a trail currently there from Chanhassen to the site.
Stolar: Where's the Richard T. Anderson trails begin?
Justin Larson: Right in this area.
Hoffman: You have that in your packet. A map of the Richard T. Anderson area.
Justin Larson: Get my bearings here. Maybe you all have monitors in front of you so
I'm wondering why no one's looking at my... Alright, this is the Richard T. Anderson
Conservation Area. The trail system is basically.., to the tree line there behind Settlers
Ridge. Basically our site is right here. It's just west of this line, and Lot 25 where we
intend to connect, basically will come in somewhere in the vicinity of this nub right here
where the trail system is currently. So two different scales but you kind of get the idea of
what our intent is. We will provide the residents with, you know basically on the east
and west side of this development a great inter connectedness to the other trail systems.
And go all the way down to Hopkins or maybe New Mexico someday, or to Canada or
whatever's north of us here in Eden Prairie. ! guess that's pretty much it. Anything you
want to add?
Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Hoffman: If there's any questions for Justin about the basic proposal. Then I'll go ahead
and go over the city's comprehensive plan issue.
Kelly: I'm just curious what the grade that you said that you're hoping to link into the
LRT trail. Is it as steep as the current entrance to the LRT trail at Pioneer? Is that about
as steep as it is in the corner that you're looking at?
Justin Larson: I don't know of an access to this right now, but I do know that the
residents here in this development have basically been crossing, risking life and limb to
cross Pioneer Trail on their bicycles to get down here on this side. ! don't know, is there
an access?
Kelly: There is, yeah.
Justin Larson: I haven't seen it.
Kelly: Is it about the same grade?
Hoffman: There's obviously going to be a grade that drops down. I've not been on this
property in a while but this is the best location and so, and Three Rivers would like to
keep it to a 5 percent grade. If that's not possible, it's not possible so you just do the best
you can in that particular situation.
Justin Larson: But to answer your question, I think I can get 5 percent grade in this area
right here.
Hoffman: That would be a lot less steeper than the other side.
Justin Larson: It will probably have to switch back a couple of times but I have the room
and the way the contours of the ground lays out right there, it's kind of, it's stepped. It's
kind of an odd situation. It looks like some of those farm fields that you'd see down in
Peru or something so you'd be able to get a trail in that area.
Kelly: Great. Because ! think south entrance into the LRT is at 101. ! don't think
there's anything between 101 and Pioneer as far as entrances. ! mean that's not really a
convenient one for pedestrians anyway.
Stolar: You said there's going to be definitely a sidewalk on one side going all the way
from Lot 30 per se. Because if you think about the ones at 30-31, they'd have to go all
the way to the other side of the development to get on.
Justin Larson: The developer's not opposed to running a sidewalk all the way to Lot 30
but ! think what we had discussed with the Planning Commission was, wherever this
comes in is where we'd run the sidewalk side. Wherever the trail system connects here to
Settlers Court, we'd run the sidewalk.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Stolar: Okay, so it's just going to make that circle on this one cul-de-sac off to 30-31,
they'll just do a street for a little bit. Okay. I get you. I get it. So make a big circle
there.
Hoffman: Traditionally we do not requires sidewalks on cul-de-sacs that have 4 or 5
houses, and that would be the case here. The real connection, in fact it would be, it
makes better planning not to take it into the cul-de-sac. To lead those people into the
Richard T. Anderson, at least so they can find out what's there and then they would turn
around.., conservation area.
Stolar: Okay. Amy? Paula, anything?
Atkins: I don't have anything.
Stolar: Okay, Todd. Do you want to?
Hoffman: Thanks Justin. I'll go over the comprehensive park plan and the
comprehensive trail plan for Chanhassen and how it interacts with this property. You
have a black and white copy of this aerial in your packet. Was everyone able to orient
themselves to where this piece of property is? Very few people have been there. As
Justin said, it's very isolated. This aerial probably gives you the best opportunity. The
Chanhassen-Eden Prairie line is right there. So you come right off of Lake Riley.
Follow this tree line. All the way down through the bluff. Another thing it points out is,
you can see how heavily wooded the conservation area is, so it's a very heavily wooded,
steeply ravined conservation area. Those are walking trails. Those are not bike trails.
Those are more walking trails or nature trails in that area. Chanhassen's comprehensive
park plan required that we provide 1 acre of open recreational land per 75, every 75
residents. We have 48 lots, new lots being proposed. It will generate 144 new residents
and a requirement of just under 2 acres of open space. Traditionally we do not accept
anything less than 5 acres in neighborhood parks. Ideally we'd like to be between 5 and
10 acres. More like 10 acres in size for economy. It's not suggested in the
comprehensive plan that this piece of land support a neighborhood park within the city of
Chanhassen. So then how do you satisfy the residents needs for parks and open space?
We talked about many of them. The trail access to the conservation area. The trail
access to the regional trail. The LRT trail. Those are two things. Something that's, we
have a very convenient trail access to the park at Riley Lake Park, down the LRT. If
you're going to go swimming on a Saturday afternoon and you live in this neighborhood,
you can hop on your bikes, drive down the new trail connection here that Justin's going
to build, head right up and you're right at the beach right off the LRT trail. Very
convenient access. The other is an access through the Settlers development and then
down this trail corridor into a park at this location, which you can see from this aerial is
not developed at this time, but it is fully developed now. It's called Crestwood
neighborhood park and it provides a full array of traditional neighborhood park
amenities. We've met with the staff in Eden Prairie. They're comfortable allowing these
Chanhassen residents to gain access to these type of facilities in Eden Prairie. That's just
Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
what the nature of the beast when you're on these border type of developments. There's
going to be trading back and forth. So again, for the commission, acquisition of
additional public parkland in Chanhassen is not recommended as a part of this
development. And it's recommended that residential park dedication fees be collected in
lieu of land dedication and those fees total $134,000 or $2,800 currently per lot in 2004.
Those dollars would be deposited into the park dedication fund and would finance
improvements in our community park system, our current system. One example being
the trail that was installed along Pioneer Trail which these people would use in the future.
Comprehensive trail plan identifies two trails. The city's comprehensive trail plan and
that is the trail on Pioneer Trail which is in place and then the LRT trail which previous
to Three Rivers Managing that section, the City of Chanhassen acted as the agent for that
section of trail. We still are the managing agent for the trail west of Bluff Creek Drive,
so Bluff Creek Drive is where Three Rivers stops their jurisdiction and they built a trail
head there. And then we, combining with the City of Chaska, we take it from there to the
Chaska border. So those are the two sections. They're currently operating, one by the
City of Chanhassen, one by Three Rivers Park District. This is, this property is owned by
the Met Council regional light rail transit authority. Some day it might be a light rail
transit route. Certainly most likely not in our lifetime. Certainly could happen. They're
also planning for light rail on the 212 corridor so there's room within the new Highway
212/312 corridor to allow for that so you have two opportunities in which, less of a
chance that it would actually go here. People are going to be so endeared with this trail
system...LRT, it's going to be difficult to put those trains there. But it certainly could be
done in the future. So again there' s, with the exception of the sidewalk which is not a
part of our comprehensive trail plan. It's simply connected to it, there's no
recommendations to build additional trail segments with the exception with connector to
the LRT as a part of this development. As far as recommended conditions to the City
Council, that we recommend you make to them. The first, when ! wrote this ! had not
confirmed with Three Rivers that they would like to see that connection and we have not
confirmed that so if you would change recommendation number one or condition number
one. Simply to make it one sentence. An internal trail or sidewalk connection to the
Southwest LRT trail be constructed, period. And the remaining be struck. Second, that a
sidewalk along Settlers West Road be constructed connecting the entire neighborhood to
the Richard T. Anderson Conservation Area, and that appropriate public easements or
outlots be maintained to facilitate that connection. The same would be true for the LRT
connection. That the appropriate easements and/or outlot be dedicated to allow for the
future maintenance of that connection. And third, full park dedication fees be collected
in lieu of parkland dedication. In this case on 48 lots, that current charge would be
$134,000. I'd like to answer any questions of the commission and would forward your
recommendation to the council.
Kelly: Just curious on the LRT trail. Where does the snowmobiling start? Where is it, is
it at Pioneer?
Hoffman: Yep, you cannot snowmobile in Eden Prairie. It's not permitted.
Kelly: Okay.
Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Hoffman: Currently.
Kelly: Currently.
Hoffman: Yep. Once this, once you start making more connections to the LRT trail
you'll probably be considering what uses you're going to allow there.
Kelly: Right, thanks. ! wasn't sure, ! thought it was at the bridge on the south. ! wasn't,
! just wanted, even though that's managed by, that part of the trail is still Three Rivers
but okay.
Hoffman: We have a permit, annual use permit agreement with them. Three Rivers does
not operate the trail in the winter so they allow cities or other government agencies along
the corridor to go ahead and accept or take over that responsibility for the winter usage.
Eden Prairie uses it as walking. Chanhassen designates snowmobiles.
Kelly: How about, who would be responsible, ! know, I've been on it actually when the
plows come through but ! haven't gone south on Pioneer on it in a while in the winter.
Who would be responsible for plowing that.
Hoffman: The little connector?
Kelly: No, just the LRT trail south of Pioneer.
Hoffman: We don't plow it.
Kelly: We don't plow it, okay. But would that be, some of that maybe considered if
there's now a neighborhood link up to the LRT?
Hoffman: No. ! don't believe Eden Prairie, do they plow the LRT?
Kelly: Yeah. Yeah.
Hoffman: Okay.
Kelly: And I've dodged the truck. But I'm not too sure if it's Eden Prairie or if it's
Three Rivers but ! know that there' s definitely a truck.
Hoffman: It'd have to be Eden Prairie.
Kelly: Okay, out there with a plow that actually keeps it in really good shape in the
winter.
Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Hoffman: If Chanhassen changes it usage pattern, then we would be responsible for that
maintenance. And similarly we would be responsible for maintaining the little trail
connection from the neighborhood down to the LRT.
Kelly: Alright.
Stolar: Paula.
Atkins: Can you show me on there where the school district, or the Chanhassen.
Hoffman: The boundary?
Atkins: Yeah the boundary.
Hoffman: It comes right across that wood line right down those lot lines. That area right
there. Hard to see. Right down this lot line here.
Stolar: And where's the development again?
Hoffman: The development is right here in Chanhassen. This is the line. Hennepin
County line. Eden Prairie line. It extends right up and across and you can see here, it's
this tree line. This is the first lot in Chanhassen. This is the first lot in Eden Prairie. This
is the first lot in Carver County. This is the first lot in Hennepin County. It goes right
down through there. So part of this development in Eden Prairie, this corner right here
would be 11 to 13 lots and then the other 48 lots all fall back into this area in Chanhassen.
Stolar: Any other questions Paula?
Atkins: No.
Stolar: Tom?
Kelly: No.
Stolar: No questions. Amy?
O'Shea: ! don't have any.
Stolar: ! just have one not related to the trail. When, in doing this are you planning on
having the lots themselves still maintain some of the bluff and such? Or is that, how does
that work? You said it's pretty unique terrain.
Justin Larson: What we're being asked to do by the city of Chanhassen is plot the lots,
plat the lots outside of. Plat the outlots in which the bluffs would reside. I'm still saying
that wrong. We're going to plat all the bluffs in an outlot so the bluffs stay outside of the
actual platted lots.
Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Stolar: Okay, that's what I was trying to read through there. That's what.
Justin Larson: As I understand it, that's not what the city ordinance says. We may have
to seek a variance to that request in some areas. There's three lots, actually just two of
them that don't meet that requirement right now. Meet the minimum lot area and have
the bluffs outside of the lots. So there's a little bit of conflict there. We still probably
have some negotiations with that, but for the most part we're not touching the bluffs.
We're not touching the bluffs ! should say there.
Stolar: No, and actually ! was just trying to read the map and see how you did that.
thought that was pretty, you can see that that line was there saying this is the bluff
outline.
Justin Larson: Yeah if you look here, we're showing this outlot which the bluffs reside
in. It encroaches into the lots.
Stolar: Okay, that's what that was, okay.
Justin Larson: We're being asked to put the actual bluff, all in the outlot and not
encroach into the lots but they don't count this area here. Even if we platted into the
bluffs, the city will not allow us to count this bluff area in the minimum lot size. Does
that make sense?
Stolar: Yep.
Justin Larson: If it's not buildable, you can't put in any lots.
Hoffman: And the reason the city doesn't want it put in the lot is because once
something becomes your's on your lot, then you're more apt to go and manage it or
change it. Whereas if it's an outlot, and you understand the define boundary, you don't
have to go in there to cut trees clear.
Stolar: Okay. Any other questions? Okay. In relation to the motion then, first of all !
think to incorporate Todd's change. We can bring this up and then amend the motion to
incorporate Todd's changes. So if someone would like to make a motion to, on the
recommendation from city staff.
O'Shea: ! recommend to the City Council that we accept staff' s recommendation for the
proposed Settlers West development with the amendment in number one to read, an
internal trail or sidewalk connection to the Southwest LRT trail be constructed. And then
the rest reads the same ! believe.
Stolar: Todd, would the rest remain the same or did you?
Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Hoffman: Would remain the same. You could add with constructed with appropriate
public easements or outlots to be dedicated for one as well. Just so we clarify where
we're putting that connection.
O'Shea: So constructed, can you say that again?
Hoffman: And that appropriate public easements or an outlot be dedicated. Nann will
type that.
O'Shea: Okay.
Stolar: Can ! have a second?
Kelly: Second.
Stolar: Okay. Any discussion? Start with you Amy.
O'Shea: No...
Atkins: I'm okay too.
Stolar: Alright.
O'Shea moved, Kelly seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City Council require the following conditions of approval
concerning parks and trails for the proposed Settlers West development:
1. An internal trail or sidewalk connection to the Southwest LRT trail shall be
constructed and that appropriate public easements or an outlot be dedicated.
2. A sidewalk along Settlers West Road be constructed connecting the entire
neighborhood to the Richard T. Anderson Conservation Area and that appropriate
public easements or outlots be maintained to facilitate this connection.
3. Full park dedication fees ($134,000) shall be collected in lieu of parkland
dedication.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0.
Stolar: When will you know if the MUSA gets changed, or is that a pretty done deal?
Hoffman: No, it's going to be, this thing can be extended. The development or review
process.
Justin Larson: Yes, it's still, the development meter's not going so hopefully by the next
public hearing.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
REACH FOR RESOURCES ADAPTIVE RECREATION CONTRACT.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Stolar. On an annual basis the City of Chanhassen does
review the contract with Reach for Resources to provide adaptive recreation services here
for the city of Chanhassen. We have been contracting with Reach since 1999 for these
services. We did see participation increase in 2003. Reach provided inclusion services
for programs and participants in preschool basketball, t-ball, our playground program,
team programs, sports sampler, karate and dances just to name a few. Again, as part of
our contract, Reach does provide instruction for our seasonal staff as it relates to children
with disabilities. Corey did get them involved in the playground staff training this year
and it was very beneficial for our staff to go through that recover techniques and basically
how to deal with in providing a good experience for kids with disabilities within our
programs. And they did a great job again with that. We did see an increase. We are
picking up momentum within our programs here within Chanhassen. Really just to name
really the last couple quarters with the summer and fall. We did really increase our
numbers and we're really keeping pace with some of the larger cities within the
consortium of cities and we are making a big difference in children's lives and providing
this opportunity for our residents of Chanhassen, and with the increase in numbers
obviously we're reaching out to more families with that so. One thing just to note, the
contract amount did increase from 2003 and that is because of our participation increase,
and we are based on a percentage. Our total is based on a percentage of participation so
that was the reason for the increase. Again our base price, $2,000 and the increase of 6
percent but it was up at $4,462 for the 2004 season. It is staff's recommendation that the
Park and Recreation Commission recommend approval to the City Council of the 2004
contract with Reach for Resources to provide adaptive recreation services for children
and adults with developmental disabilities for the City of Chanhassen. The contract
amount is for $4,4562. and this amount has been budgeted within our recreation program
budget. Program budget 1600 for the 2004 budget.
Stolar: Thank you Jerry. Questions. Paula.
Atkins: The increase is, that's not for training. That's for, because there's more kids
participating.
Ruegemer: Correct.
Atkins: It's not for training of staff like you.
Ruegemer: No, that's included within the base price of the contract.
Atkins: That's all ! have.
Stolar: Tom.
Kelly: I'm just curious. Do you have an estimate number of how many kids do
participate in the highest?
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Ruegemer: Probably before, you know quarter by quarter, I'm guessing you know just
rough estimates 30 to 40.
Kelly: And there's no cost to the participants? It's totally funded by.
Ruegemer: As far as if they need inclusion services for that? No, there is not.
Hoffman: Based on a pre program there's a program cost.
Kelly: There's a program cost, okay.
Ruegemer: Yeah, but as far as the type of interpretation or assistance during that
program, if they sign up for t-ball, they pay the t-ball cost but not for an instructor to be
there to provide them with the experience of an active program itself.
Kelly: Okay.
Stolar: Have any more?
Kelly: No.
O'Shea: Jerry just to clarify, when you said 30 to 40 participants. Is that the increase or
is that the total? Or is that the 6 percent?
Ruegemer: That is the total.
O'Shea: And that went up 6 percent.
Ruegemer: Yeah, for the 2003 year.
O'Shea: So that went up. So 30 to 40 participants. Okay.
Ruegemer: I'm guessing, approximately.
Hoffman: ! think the most telling statistic that's there, there's 12 cities in the consortium
and we're in the top 4 currently. We've not been close to that in the past.
O'Shea: One more question with that because I'm assuming with that statement you want
to see it grow and I'm wondering how we can afford to have it grow. If it goes up this
significantly with just serving 30 to 40 kids and what if we grew 25 percent or, ! mean
what' s the.
Ruegemer: Yeah, you look at other cities. Like Hopkins and Minnetonka, they're up
around that $17,000 to $20,000 for their contract. You know Plymouth is up high. That
certainly is, as our participation numbers increase, so will our contract costs.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
O'Shea: Okay. ! guess then ! thought of one more question. Are we picking up some of
the costs because they've lost some of their funding?
Ruegemer: You know ! asked that question as well and you know, ! think they say no
but ! can't speak for them on that. Obviously they were having funding programs with
Hennepin County and through, is what they have kind of relayed to me through
additional belt tightening and you know obviously ! think there has to be an increase for
health costs and that sort of thing, but to cover their operational costs, but you know !
think our's is based on participation.
O'Shea: Okay, that's all ! have. Thanks.
Hoffman: ! think another way to look at the cost to benefit ratio is, when you do these
contractual arrangements, it's always tough to pay. You're paying an outside party to
come in and provide that service to the resident but if you were an Eden Prairie or
Bloomington, their cost for the same service is certainly over $50,000 and probably
closer to 75 to 100,000 dollars that Eden Prairie or Bloomington would pay in the same
service to offer their residents. They do it in-house. They have staff, people on staff.
They're much more involved in the programs so, Chanhassen, we don't have that luxury.
We have the availability of this program, which has grown because there are other
communities in our same situation that want to provide that expertise and that service
and. You attend some of these workshops included in therapeutic recreation and it's a
tough, we didn't grow because these people are, they're very hesitant to start off with
their kids. These people have been in so many hurtful situations throughout their
upbringing that until they find that home or that certain level of comfort, they're hesitant
to come in. ! think we're finally reached that point where they start to recognize that it's
going to be around for a while and they're starting to access it so ! think it's a very
positive situation for the city.
O'Shea: That's it.
Stolar: I have several questions. One, what is the base versus variable? You mentioned
base.
Ruegemer: The base that all cities are charged is $2,000.
Stolar: I'm sorry, that was in there. Okay. Got it. Okay, so we're going to pay $2,562,
about that. And that's regardless of size? That's just to be in the program? Okay. And
then related to last year we paid $3,400 you said?
Ruegemer: Yep.
Stolar: Okay, and then the budget this year was greater, projected greater than this
amount so we aren't going to have to pull funds from other areas.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Ruegemer: Correct.
Stolar: The other thing would be, if we could get, ! know on occasionally in the
administrative packet get the participation levels from them. It would be nice to see is
kind of an annual report. Here is where you were at 2002. Across all the cities in the
consortium, and here's where you're at 2003, because we're at the top 4 and again it was
a discussion point we had. Is it because everyone else is dwindling or is it because we
are growing? You know if everyone is growing faster.., more inclusion. If it's high
proportion because they're keeping their base the same, maybe that's what might need to
change is how much they charge as base. The other question, do we promote this? !
know ! read through the brochures we do all the time but ! don't remember seeing it.
With the programs, recreational programs, do we promote this service?
Ruegemer: In our Chanhassen Connection we have a, basically two pages, if not a page,
two pages in each quarterly newsletter that' s dedicated to adaptive recreation, so there' s
all those programs are advertised in that publication. It's also in our city web site.
Stolar: One other thing, is there a situation where it would be advantageous then, just a
question to, for a particular sports where we see this would be of more value, when we
define the recreation program itself. It doesn't have to be sport but the program, to
maybe put a footnote there and on the bottom we set a footnote, you know available for
Reach services. I'm just wondering if people are looking at t-ball and saying well you
know, ! can't really do that, not knowing that 2 pages earlier we said Reach was
available for that. Because if we are going to pay for it, let's get it used.
Hoffman: All the programs have the availability and we have a note in our program
brochure which will say, you know these services are available for all people with all
abilities. There's no discrimination, and so it's listed in there.
Stolar: Okay, great. Good. ! think that's all ! have. And like ! said, last year ! said at
this time, if we do know of other services that might be out there, it might be worth
noting to see if there are others. I'm not decrying this program itself but just to
understand what our options might be should we choose. And Jerry you said, just
basically in your perception is there are not programs like this really out there.
Hoffman: It would have to be probably created and say team up with Bloomington, Eden
Prairie and tag into what they're doing and then come up with some kind of contract with
adjacent cities similar to our contract with Minnetonka for schools for the lifeguard.
Stolar: Okay, great. Thank you.
Ruegemer: Thank you.
Stolar: Okay, do we have a motion on the recommendation from the staff for the Reach
services for 2004?
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Atkins: I'll make a motion that City Council approve staff's recommendation for
approval of the 2004 contract with Reach for Resources for services provided in the
amount of $4,562.00.
Stolar: Okay. Do ! have a second?
Kelly: Second.
Stolar: Discussion or comments?
Atkins moved, Kelly seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City Council approve the 2004 contract with Reach for
Resources to provide adaptive recreation services for children and adults with
developmental disabilities. The contract amount is $4,562 and this amount has been
budgeted within the 2004 (1600) recreation budget. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0.
RECREATION PROGRAMS:
FEBRUARY FESTIVAL EVALUATION.
Ruegemer: The fun stuff. Another February Festival is in the books this year. It really
was a fun time. You know the weather was really good down there and a lot of fish were
caught again this year so it was really a fun event. Some of the highlights certainly are
the fishing contest. People really enjoy the sliding hill again this year. We moved it back
again kind of the Parkview picnic area again. It really helped us out to have a lot of snow
that we could really do a lot more forming and provide that area. The medallion hunt
seems to be growing in popularity. ! think the clues came on Thursday this year so it
didn't make it into the weekend but the Friends of the Library are doing really a nice
event within our event. The bake sale, the Boy Scouts were popular. They ran out of bait
at about 5 to 1:00 and they got more by 20 after 1:00 so people just begged, borrowed
and stole from a neighbor here so that worked out well. People shared their bait out on
the ice. The bonfire is always kind of a favorite when it gets ripping, it's nice and warm
to kind of get a little warmth back to the bones here when you're standing out on the ice
where the Boy Scouts sold s'mores again for that. We're up slightly in tickets. 34
compared to last year. As you can see it's interesting to note that the pre-sale tickets
were about 224 tickets in advance sales and 808 were sold the day of the event. That is
really typically the way it does break down. We are, we do rely heavily on same day
ticket sales out on the ice and that really is an important message that we try to convey to
our public that if people are unsure, if you can buy, oh we missed the date here to
purchase tickets in advance. But it's very important that we promote that you can
certainly buy tickets on the ice the day of and it's a great event. We're, for the most part
we're say kind of at 900-950 to 1,050 ticket sales has been pretty consistent through the
years. It also gives us kind of a good benchmark as to how to kind of project our
revenues for this event so that certainly does help out. You know there's always ways
that we can tweak and increase our efficiency when it comes to the prizes. Door prizes
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
and distribution of those prizes. We feel that we're getting a little bit more prolific as it
comes to the distribution of these prizes. It really has helped to have not only the tickets
but also, also commenting on people's names and kind of the prizes and stuff that they
wanted, that really helps with the recognition of people coming and claiming tickets prior
to having kind of a right at the end contest where everybody coming and getting it so. So
just walking around the event, people really just seem to having a good time. People may
fish one time a year. Bring their kids down and that's the event that they pick to fish so it
really is a, you know as we heard through some of the applicants tonight for the Park and
Rec Commission, we do have a good sense of community here and it's just another
extension of that. An arm of our community here so people really do like getting out.
You know they kind of get out of that winter hibernation mode so to speak to come out
and have a fun time with this event. You know the fishing contest does remain the focus
of this event but we also defer kind of new ways to add or spice it up so.
Hoffman: And thanks to those commissioners that helped. We have a new emcee.
Stolar: Maybe.
Hoffman: You did a great job.
Stolar: Thanks. Questions, comments. Paula.
Atkins: How big was the biggest fish?
Hoffman: 4 pounds.
Stolar: 4.12 wasn't it?
Kelly: And the next closest wasn't even close. It wasn't in the 4 or 3 pound range.
Hoffman: 3.7, yeah. Something like that. Came in 4 minutes to go.
Stolar: Oh that's right. Right at the end.
Kelly: Oh yeah...
Ruegemer: Who ever said about Velcro.
Kelly: Oh that would be good. As long as you don't get splinters and stuff like that. I
have a couple questions. One was, how do licenses work? Do you have to have a license
to fish?
Hoffman: Oh yeah.
Kelly: Is it included in the cost of, it's probably not enforced though.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Hoffman: Oh, it could be enforced.
Kelly: It could be enforced?
Hoffman: Law enforcement officers showed up and starting checking people.
Atkins: ! think a lot of people buy a one day one.
Kelly: Okay.
Ruegemer: Yeah, it's a Department of Natural Resources regulation.
Stolar: Do we have any ability to sell them there?
Hoffman; No.
Stolar: It has to be an official.
Hoffman: It's noticed on there. On the registration and notice that you have to be
licensed.
Kelly: Would they ever set up a booth there? Would they ever set up a booth there on
the day of to try to get.
Hoffman: You have to have a credit card connection. You have to be an agent.
Kelly: Oh you do, okay.
Hoffman; When they went to the online registration, you can buy them at the hardware
store if you have to but it's right there...
Ruegemer: They can swipe your license right through.
Hoffman: They dial up. They might set up a booth to come and check.
Stolar: With today's current wireless capabilities, you have the ability to set one up and
be remote. But to find someone who wants to do that.
Hoffman: It's about a $700, $1,000 fee to be an agent to sell these things.
Kelly: The only complaint ! heard is, ! don't necessarily agree with it. ! really don't but
I'll bring it up anyway. One guy came up to me and thought that KQRS was playing
some music that may not have been too suitable for some of the younger fishermen so !
think his suggestion was maybe have more family friendly music next year, so ! want to
bring it up. He brought it up to me and ! guess it's my responsibility to bring up these
things.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Stolar: Well and ! also didn't like the fact that there were commercials. It made it more
difficult. ! would prefer some canned ongoing music.
Ruegemer: Next time satellite maybe or.
Stolar: Because ! mean we had these commercials and ! tried to do the announcements
during the commercials so that people didn't have to hear commercials but ! mean, if
KQRS wants to pay us to play their commercials, that's a different story. Then I'd be
happy but it seemed that it was kind of weird that the sound was presenting a radio
station which then played commercials. Which may have even gone against our
sponsors. Well then the music is a separate issue but ! mean.
Kelly: I can bring in my best of the 80's next year. CD if you want. That was the only
comment. ! thought it was a lot of fun. The day was perfect and I've never seen a line
that long at the food. That was amazing, and that was longer than the beer line, which !
think is a first.
Hoffman; They were happy. They did well.
Stolar: Paula, did you have additional questions?
Atkins: No.
Stolar: Amy?
O'Shea: No.
Stolar: I just have a couple questions. One, do we sell discount, is it discounted if you
buy early? ... and what was the decision changed? Didn't do anything?
Hoffman: Didn't do anything.
Stolar: Has weather been, because ! mean these last few, I've only been at it 2 years.
Tom and ! were there the year before and the weather's been perfect. Do you think that's
what's causing so many day of sales? That people are waiting until they see the weather
to buy in which case maybe a discounted one would have spurred them earlier but you're
saying people are going to wait no matter what.
Hoffman: No matter what.
Stolar: Either I'm going to do it no matter what or I'm going to wait no matter what.
Hoffman: 5 bucks or 7 bucks, it doesn't matter. And you know we have to be prepared
for the day that it is a bad day. You only have 206 tickets sold in pre-sale. You might
sell 100 on the lake in really poor weather and so it's going to be a small event one year.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Stolar: Well we'll just demand Corey to keep bringing the weather the way he plans
now. The other question ! had was, I'll make again my request that we have a small fish,
biggest fish for perch. Biggest fish for northerns because again ! think it was all northern,
right? On the board.
Kelly: It's been all northerns for the last 2 years.
Stolar: And maybe just one thing, right. For the biggest perch separate from the biggest
overall but just.
Hoffman: We talked about doing a pan fish.
Stolar: Or pan fish, yeah.
Hoffman: Pan fish and game fish.
Stolar: Because ! guess crappie is there too.
Hoffman; Yeah, sunfish, crappie so. Because they used to win. Now they don't win
anything any more.
Stolar: Just a couple of other quick suggestions would be, possibly having one hole
towards the front where kids who've never ice fish, like my kid, could actually just do it.
Have somebody just volunteer, see if somebody from the community would volunteer
and just teach kids how to do ice fishing. For the fun of it as another side program.
Hoffman: Educational component?
Stolar: Yeah.
Hoffman: Good idea.
Stolar: And then the other thing is, you know we gave away a ice fish house as one of
the prizes. Maybe someone would want to display their house on one of the holes. You
know that they just put up one of those fancy ones or whatever to have people look
through it. Maybe seek a sponsor who'd be willing to do that would be a fun thing to
have people just go in and see a nice fishing hut.
Hoffman: That's an interesting, it's a different segment of the community. Not everybody
understands the whole ice fishing thing.
Stolar: Right, and maybe that's where you have the teaching how to do it. It'd be a nice
little event, side event if we can get a sponsor to do that. Get them young and then they'll
be hooked on ice fishing and you'll sell huts for years.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Hoffman: Good idea. Great idea. Because houses are getting nicer.
Stolar: That's what made me think about it was after the Feb Fest there were some.
Hoffman: Star Tribune.
Stolar: Star Tribune, yeah and I'm like, we ought to have one of those at Feb Fest just to
show it.
Hoffman: Great idea.
Stolar: And ! think Corey did a great job. It was a lot of fun again. And Jerry and Todd.
Todd, our official weigher and measurer. The small ones had to have been the tough,
because you try to stretch them out, but you don't want to stretch them out too far.
Kelly: Do you think you have enough room where you're weighing because you have a
gallery of kids just watching you put these things back in the hole. ! was wondering if
you think with the prizes behind you and the food right across, if you think you have
enough room or you don't think it warrants that you have a separate little tent?
Stolar: ... and you weigh it there and they come in.
Hoffman: We used to display the fish, but in these days of politically correct, we let
them go. Yeah, we had an aquarium.
Ruegemer: In the early days.
Hoffman: Great gawkers show down there. One year we had a sponsor of the Golden
Rainbow Fish tab. Rainbow trout, if you caught one of those you'd win $1,000 cash.
That was taped inside the aquarium these $100 bills so a great spectator sport. But the
fish that were on display, but they start to go belly up and you get all sorts of suspicion.
Stolar: Well thanks again Corey and you guys.
Hoffman; Any other ides for the event? We love those. We love those ideas. Typically
what happens at these things, they expand and then you start, we cut off cross country
skiing. We cut off dog sleds because they're expensive, tough to get. Golf. Diving has
come and gone. We still have people that ask about that but the medallion hunt's been a
great, and the library, the kids love that.
Stolar: What about snow shoeing, is that something that you tried before?
Ruegemer: I think we investigated that in the past.
Hoffman: Yeah, we tried to bring skis right on the lake. Just not enough time to make it
all happen. We're going to try to bring the ice skating closer to the bonfire, so they're all
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
connected. Bring that up closer. Right now it's down on the beach so you can
congregate a little.
Stolar: The Bingo was popular again.
Hoffman: Hey, good candy prizes.
Stolar: Okay, thanks.
DADDY/DAUGHTER DATE NIGHT EVALUATION.
Ruegemer: The Daddy/Daughter Date Night. There was two nights again this year,
February 12th and 13th, which is a Thursday and Friday night. That event was held out at
the Recreation Center. Really both nights were a great success, with 45 couples attending
each night and there's always waiting lists to get into the program as well if you don't
sign up early enough for that. So that really was a very successful event that started
many years ago. As you can kind of go down, you can see the caterer, the dance. Corey
has a DJ that is very interactive with the participants. Susan also helps, Susan Marek at
the Recreation Center is a very integral part of this event as well. Even ! got involved
this year blowing up balloons for the event so it was fun out there. Corey and Susan both
do a great job with this. It's a lot of fun. There's face painting out there. There's
balloon sculptures. Takes the pictures. Everybody comes in their new dresses and dad is
in his suit and very nice, a nice apparel so it's a fun, very fun event. Very popular. We
have, Todd continues to get feedback from the Rotary. Lot of Rotarians were at the
event, including Mayor Furlong and Councilman Lundquist. Rod Franks was there with
his daughter so it's really a fun event. It gets, as the program says, people are dancing
from start to finish so there were a lot of positive comments on that. There's talk that out
there in the community to start like a mother/son kind of an event for that and we're in
the process of investigating that right now for next year.
Stolar: Any questions?
O'Shea: Who's the caterer?
Ruegemer: Brad's Home Plate.
O'Shea: Where's that?
Ruegemer: They're located down in the Belle Plain, New Prague area.
Atkins: Always looking for good caterers.
Ruegemer: They're cheap too. Provide a very good selection of food for the price.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
2004 EASTER EGG CANDY HUNT.
Ruegemer: ... flyer that was put together. As far as I know it will be distributed through
the schools here in early March. Get that out to people. That's just all it is, is an
informational item so you can put it on your calendars.
Stolar: Any questions on that? Good, thank you Jerry. You've got great programming
as always.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Stolar: Anything? Playground committee?
Kelly: We haven't heard anything yet.
Hoffman: You'll be scheduled for, ! don't recall the date but I'll send out an e-mail
tomorrow. The RFP for the five companies has been sent out and they total a $175,000
so you can see pre-plans totaling $125,000. That includes the equipment, the border, and
the resilient material, and we specified that each. We've given each consultant the
flexibility to make the border smaller or bigger, depending on the size and layout of their
playground. That way they can maximize the efficiency of how much play equipment
they have. If they build it up or make it taller. They can shrink down the border and
resilient materials, spend less money on that, more money on equipment. So it's really
up to them.
Stolar: And have the committee members received the copy of the RFP?
Hoffman: You bet.
Stolar: Okay. And we were talking earlier about that we haven't gotten our
neighborhood representative as of yet.
Hoffman: Okay, no. Correct. From the Meadow Green, Chaparral Homeowners
Addition so they're talking about that, and we've also talked about appointing another
individual who's a nice candidate who lives in that area.
Stolar: Alright, great. Thank you.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS.
Stolar: Todd, do you want to talk at all about the community center update?
Hoffman: Sure.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Atkins: I also did attend on February 9th and heard the guys give their presentation on the
Farmers Market to the City Council. And they brought up, the City Council brought up a
lot of good points. ! thought I'm interested to see what the outcome was of that.
Hoffman: It was approved last night.
Atkins: Okay, good. They were just interested in real practical things like bathrooms
and traffic control and insurance policies. They were wondering about vendor
qualification. If it was a state regulation on produce and things like that that they were
selling. The fees. They thought maybe a week was too much time to allow for optional
shut down for health or safety reasons. So ! thought they brought up a lot of good points
but ! had to leave before it was over so ! didn't know how it turned out.
Hoffman: Last night they came back again during the formal part of the council meeting.
We adjusted, made those amendments to the conditions of approval for farmers market,
and council approved it on a 4 to 0 vote. And the farmers market committee will need to
go out and form, be incorporated and they'll start sometime in May.
Stolar: And they were going to come back to us at some point towards the later, more
towards the spring to help. Did we talk at all about the 4th of July and how we can maybe
incorporate that with them or is that still to be determined.
Hoffman: It will be an event of the 4th of July. Part of that day.
Stolar: Good, thank you. And then the community center update.
Hoffman: Second item last night on the work session portion of the meeting. The first
two were talked about prior to, or discussed prior to the meeting. Community center was
postponed until after the regular meeting. Council adjourned their regular meeting. We
talked about community centers. Gave a brief background report. The last referendum
for a community center in this town was in 1990, so it's been 14 years since any type of
initiative to put a ballot question out on a community center. There's always a lot of talk
and a lot of people will say they want a community center. There's not been a definite
push to build one in quite some time. The committee, task force was the most recent
effort to start exploring those interests, the level of interest and that was in 2002. The
report from Mr. LaPrade is in the packet and again, when that report was presented to the
council at that time, there was no action taken by the council. But it is in the strategic
plan to continue to investigate community centers and the options of partnering with
other entities on these facilities, so their basic comments back to staff last evening were,
they, as staff, we do not believe we're going to build a Maple Grove Community Center
or Chaska Community Center or Maplewood Community Center in this community. It
just, and the service area of the population that we have, the facilities that are surrounding
us and the other activities that are brought on a community with the potential of a
Lifetime. If Lifetime does in fact build in this community, that would pretty much seal
the fate for a free standing community based facility. Currently staff's vision, and if that
vision does not match with the commission, you should certainly communicate it to us.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
To that effect is that we have the recreation center facility. If we build this new school in
town, a high school or middle school, you can add facilities onto that. You can add
theater facilities. School facilities. You could add an ice sheet if you want. You can add
outdoor recreation facilities. There's no end to what you can compliment that school
building with. Just depending upon land availability. Same goes for Lifetime Fitness.
Lifetime Fitness comes to town. The City, if there's the will of the way to make it
happen, you can combine and make a variety of community based facilities onto that
Lifetime Fitness. The value of the Chaska Community Center today is probably $25
million. ! don't see us coming up with $25 million to build a stand alone facility in this
community. Number one, we're running out of good sites because everybody else has
taken them. We haven't set it aside. The community has not made it a definite priority
and so that is a feeling or an understanding or a position that we continue to follow, and
what we're looking for, and again the council said it last night. They want to be
opportunistic. When something comes to town that you can join up with, and have some
good return on your investment that you make, then you want to make that happen. And
they're looking to the commission and staff to make those recommendations on what that
would be.
Stolar: Questions.
O'Shea: Yeah ! don't know, the one comment, ! don't know if you said that the
community hasn't made it a priority. ! don't know if it's that as much as ! don't think
past councils have made it a priority. Because as we saw before, candidates tonight all
brought up we want to see a rec center. So I, you know ! have nothing to back that up
other than just what ! heard from people that live in this community that ! think it's one
of those things again just like the schools. ! think the community's waiting for the city
and ! don't think they understand the procedure. ! think if they knew that if they spoke
up.
Hoffman: Representative government, yes.
O'Shea: Yeah. ! think they're just waiting, you know just like schools. Well we'll build
one here, instead of saying, you know going to the school board meetings so ! don't have
anything to back that other than ! really feel strongly that the community wants one, but !
do think past councils, not saying this one, have kind of waffled a little bit on where they
stood on it. What's your feeling about that?
Hoffman: ! take many calls. Hundreds of calls over the years that I've been here on a
community center but our last survey, which is now 3 years old, they wanted one. They
didn't want to pay for it and council clearly understands that and so until the opportunity
to bank roll the thing or to make it financed or to joint partner with somebody, the
council, they keep that in the back of their mind and they say you know, if there's an
opportunity to make this a win/win situation financially and service wise, then we're
going to do it, but you're absolutely correct. People call me all the time and say you
know, Mr. Hoffman, why don't you build a community center in this town. And ! say,
because it's not my job unless City Council tells us to build a community center, and park
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
commission makes a recommendation to the City Council to build a community center,
and they say yes, let's do it. Then it will happen. But again, we heard tonight this group
is the advocates and we haven't had a recommendation from the park commission in
recent times to make a...to a community center, so. It might start here as well. We've
had some rumblings and some discussion and some joint discussion at the, at your joint
meetings with the council, but certainly no bonafide, let's build a community center
recommendation coming out of the park commission.
Kelly: Is Lifetime open to, you said something about how the city could negotiate with
Lifetime to add some community services. Is that something that Lifetime's open to or
they could be open to or is that, would that be the same to say you do this if you want the
land? ! mean how hard is that?
Hoffman: We're just making assumptions based on what they've done in the past with
other municipalities. Generally how they're operating now, they're going out and they're
doing it in a free market trade manner. They're buying the land, building the buildings
and opening and operating them as a private business. And although it's not...
understanding, it's easier that way. It's just easier for them to do it and they're going to
build 20 or 30 of these things a year, and they're going to build 200 in the next 10 years.
And they're going to do that across the country.
Stolar: You have any comments Paula?
Atkins: Yeah, ! agree totally with Amy about there's a desire and ! hate to see, ! hate to
hear wording like that that the council is not, well it sounds like they're closing a door,
maybe not. ! mean they want to partner. They're going to take the opportunity when it
comes but ! still think that 2 years down the road maybe we could have a real community
center.
Hoffman: Well it's on the strategic plan and the council didn't, they did not make a
statement representative of the council. They just made individual statements... They
certainly didn't close any doors. If staff was in a position or the park commission was in
a position to make a recommendation to purchase a piece of land and build a community
center, they'd be there...
Stolar: ! guess ! would leave it up to my fellow commissioners and myself to decide if
we want to bring this as an issue where we develop a point of view. Could create a
committee again to do that. If that's something we should consider at future meetings if
you so choose. ! also, ! still have a question of, couldn't we work something out with
other cities that are doing something. Did Eden Prairie pass their referendum to add a
water park or weren't they looking at it?
Hoffman: The ballots are May 11th I believe.
Ruegemer: It's coming up.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Stolar: It's coming up.
Hoffman: May 11th, 25 million.
Stolar: Things along those lines to me, I think you know I'd be interested if staff knew or
without adding the burden to you. ! don't want to do that. You know how well do these
things do over time? Right? We know that they get a lot of excitement up front, but then
do they close over time, in which case...because of the volume, right, and that's the
question to me. Has always been the question is, if this city, for the types of things we've
talked about. Not all of them but some of them, probably doesn't have the population to
make it sustainable over time. Now granted we're growing still. We're still a growing
city. Their growth has slowed so my question being, is there a partnership consortiums?
We talked about consortiums with Reach. You talk about consortiums with Lifetime. Is
there a consortium here where those communities next to us that are a bit larger or more
aggressive in going it, would partner with us? We do a dual connection with let's say a
Chaska and an Eden Prairie, if their stuff passes, to say our people can go to either of
those and we find out the economics behind that. Will our people, depending on where
you live in the city, would have reasonable access location wise but we don't have to
make the investment and we help our sister cities leverage the volume that they would
need to sustain their investment. It's a question. You know economics, ! don't know
which is better, and ! do think ultimately it's going to come down to, do we put
something out there for the citizens to say, yes I'm willing to pay this amount for these
services, and then they either vote it up or down again like you said, it's been 14 years.
So something we as a commission, maybe we do want to take the lead on this. Maybe we
do want to foster the debate one way or the other.
O'Shea: ! was just interested, ! thought we really did make a statement a while back
saying we really wanted to pursue this.
Stolar: We did and that's what formed that committee, right?
O'Shea: Yeah, so when ! hear.
Stolar: But we didn't recommend, we should go to a bonding or we should have
something on the ballot. We haven't gone that far yet ! don't believe.
Hoffman: You made a recommendation and then that committee formed. Made the
report. Reported to the council and no action was taken so again.
O'Shea: And where did that fall, when we got the people that were interested in
partnering? Was that part of that same?
Hoffman: Part of that whole conversation.
O'Shea: Because it bothers me that it might be misinterpreted that this commission
hasn't shown an interest because we have brought these things forward and I'm not sure
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
where they stopped. You know it seems like they get stopped, so ! guess ! want it noted
that ! thought the majority of all us were really behind pursuing a community center,
maybe with partnering or whatever shape it may take.
Stolar: I think we were in favor of pursuing investigation into the partnering options. I
don't think we went any further than that in saying, because we also did say the types of
things we would be looking for. We all went through and prioritized but we didn't go
beyond saying we should have one. We said we should investigate what the partnerships
are so ! think we were still in the exploratory phase, and ! still think my question about,
with other cities is also exploratory. We could again, if we want we can say, let's form a
couple or a few of us to go off and just work with staff to come up with a
recommendation. To the City Council.
Hoffman: One thing, to frame all of this. ! know there's a lot of interest. A lot of
interest in the commission. There's interest on the council. Certain council members are
a lot more excited in this than others. Community members, commission members, staff
members. And what ! want to caution you about is, don't sit back and think that there's
going to be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. That somebody's going to say, here
it is. This is the most wonderful thing about community centers. It's a no lose situation.
It's all win. It's going to pay for itself. It's going to get built because that's not the fact
about community centers. None of them make money. They're all an investment in your
level of service in the community. Every community makes a choice to provide this
service, this service, this service and it costs them money. And so that's why when you
waltz into Chaska, you waltz over to Eden Prairie, you say we want to partner up. Now if
they go oh great, want to partner up in a losing proposition because most of them are, and
how are we going to make that work? You know how much are you going to put in?
How much are we going to put in? How much are you going to lose? How much are we
going to lose? These things cost money. The reason Lifetimes can make money is they
provide only the services that can make money. Community centers don't do that.
Community centers provide all sorts of extras. Meeting rooms and other things at low
cost and no cost and they give the space away. And we've explored a variety of very, !
would call it experimental and creative avenues to getting, to providing the services to
our residents. If we had something to share, if we had a golf course, we would probably
have, maybe not with Chaska. See they've got some pretty nice golf courses, but we'd
probably have that reciprocal agreement. Many communities in the metropolitan area
have that. You have a golf course. We have an outdoor swimming pool. Your residents
can come swim at our pool. Our residents can go golf at your golf course and you treat,
we all treat them like residents. They pay the same costs. We don't have the availability
in Chanhassen. We ask Chaska, if we paid the difference between a resident and non-
resident rate, would you accept our residents at residents? They said absolutely.
Stolar: And that's what I'm saying, that might be less than the maintenance cost to
maintain our own facility.
Hoffman: This community is willing and ready to pay that cost. When you checked into
Chaska Community Center, they would swipe you as a Chanhassen resident. Bill you the
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
resident rate, and then send us the bill for the remainder, if we were willing to pick that
up as a form of providing that service.
Stolar: That's what I was thinking we could do with Eden Prairie also. Same thing.
Especially if they get the new park, or even Edina, even though that's a little bit further
but if Eden Prairie does it. ! think we got to, part of the problem is we're waiting for a lot
of other things to happen. Does Eden Prairie pass a water park? Does the school district,
does Lifetime build? Does the school district? You know ! think we can prep for it and
build a point of view. We can say to heck with it. Let's put a ballot out there that says,
here's what it would cost to build and maintain a community center. ! mean we've got to
understand that the tax burden is not just the bonding. It's the extra maintenance. We
don't want to do what the library did, which is build and then put more burden on Todd
and Jerry' s staff. So those are the things that, and again ! think maybe it' s, ! sense from
the commission we want to have this discussion. Probably not now but in a more formal
sense in the next few months. Would it be beneficial to wait until we have our new
members on?
Atkins: ! think so.
Hoffman: And what we might know about Lifetime.
Kelly: Yeah, ! think that's a big key.
Stolar: So somewhere in the summer timeframe we might have a better. ! don't want to,
first meeting start off with that. And ! think Todd, these are valid points. Your guy's
knowledge and points of view, we'll know the Eden Prairie results.
Hoffman: There's a lot happening right now.
Stolar: A lot happening and ! think it'd be very beneficial, and ! think it's until this issue
is resolved, yeah it's probably going to keep being on our agenda. Because we hear from
the citizens. ! actually heard people who don't want it because they don't want to pay
for it. They're right in that group that says it's a great idea as long as ! don't have to pay
a thing.
Hoffman: The Victoria, what do they call it?
O'Shea: Field house?
Hoffman: Great facility. But they're bank rolling that thing to the tune of about
$250,000 a year to support it. That's a big payment to provide that service to the
community. The Chanhassen Recreation Center, about $75,000 we subsidize that facility
for our residents.
Atkins: ! know that when Chaska added the theater onto the community center, they
were in dire straights too. To pay for it. They wanted our community theater group to
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
pledge $10,000 a year to help, because the Arts Council had pledged a ton of money and
they weren't able to meet the obligation.
Hoffman: But they pledged.
Atkins: So I don't know how things turned out but I think they're getting a lot more
business in the theater now. A lot more groups are using it and paying rent.
Stolar: Any other questions on this? It was a very helpful discussion I think. I think it is
an issue that we as a commission need to keep in the fore front so thank you.
Hoffman: There's got to be a champion. There's no doubt about it.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Stolar: I know I didn't go first so I'll go first on this one. The triathlon. When is the
triathlon, Lake Minnetonka Triathlon. Is that something we want to get involved in?
it does go through our park. Volunteers? Promotion? Helping them out.
If
Hoffman: They have not, they're, it's a one person thing and ! would be hesitant to get
involved in a one person show on a first year basis. It's one individual sponsoring it.
Single individual and it's not a race. ! think it's simply an event so you probably want to
watch and see what happens. We'll see how it goes. We have residents who have talked
to us in the past about sponsoring a triathlon in town as well and currently Miracles for
Mitch is working on a concept idea. That's a local group here in the Chanhassen
Elementary.
Stolar: Do you know what does this was going to be?
Kelly: Yeah, it's June 19th. Starts at 8:00 a.m. Anyone want to go swim for me?
Hoffman: You can do it.
Stolar: My wife would do that. She says she' s not ready for the bike and run yet but she
can do the swim part.
Hoffman: You do it all together.
Stolar: Oh, they don't do teams?
Kelly: There actually is a relay but I'm going for the individual.
Stolar: Because we did the Eden Prairie one they had on the 4th of July where she swam,
biked and then she ran.
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Park and Rec Commission - February 24, 2004
Kelly: Swim is at Excelsior, and it's actually point to point. I think you start up at beach
in Excelsior and you go around the point and you end up around that point. The bike
comes. Well you see the map of the bike and the run's actually on the...trail in
Excelsior.
Stolar: Is there a web site for this?
Kelly: Lake Minnetonka Triathlon.com.
Atkins: That's a rough lake.
Hoffman: It will be tough, depending on the wind.
Stolar: My wife used to do the Chicago one which you swim in Lake Michigan. A lot
rougher. Lot colder. You wear a dry suit, or wet suit.
Kelly: I've never done one and that's why I'm excited. I'm so excited to see...
Stolar: Well you get to bike up and down Lakeshore Drive. They close it off so it's like
beautiful biking. My company sponsors that. If anyone's interested. In Chicago. It's
called the Century Triathlon. Largest triathlon in the country. So Tom you going to get
ready for that one? ! can get you in. You're a business partner of our's. We'll get you
in. Any other questions on the administrative packet? Well I'd like to see how that goes
because ! do think it'd be fun to have as part of you know, as part of one of the things we
do. And Eden Prairie's was very short. It wasn't a lot of work. Like ! did the bike so it
can't be that hard.
Kelly: So someone's actually thinking about it, doing one and you said there was some
group that's trying to.
Hoffman: Focusing on kids. Miracles for Mitch at Lake Ann. And they have world
class triathletes Tony Shiller.
Stolar: Jerry's giving me the signal. He's got to make a hockey game. So, can ! have a
motion for adjournment.
Kelly moved, O'Shea seconded at adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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