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1 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 26, 1999 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Ron Roeser, Fred Berg, Mike Howe, Rod Franks and Dave Moes MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Manders STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent, Dawn Beitel, Recreation Supervisor; Susan Marek, Interim Rec Center Coordinator; and Cynthia Kirchoff, Planner I. Public Present: Name Address Greg & Barb Hedlund Barbara Kreisler Alex Wagenaar Kelli Komru Cinda Jensen Laurie Gauer Mike Wegler Karol Johnson Mary Perkins Barb Lemke Valerie McCullough Tom Ebenreiter Margaret Klasterman Charles Chuva John Oberstar Ann Miller Frank Scott Gregg A. Aune, CAA President Charles Nagel Marie Schroeder VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: 748 Lake Point 764 Lake Point 890 Fox Court 890 Fox Court 2173 Brinker Street 3820 Lone Cedar Lane 6630 Mohawk Drive 1001 Lake Lucy Road 1001 Highway 7, Hopkins 1001 Highway 7, Hopkins 1001 Highway 7, Hopkins 6530 Fox Path 6471 Fox Path 6521 Fox Path 796 Lake Point 6561 F ox Path CAA 8705 Chanhassen Hills Drive 6340 Fox Path 6600 Lores Trail Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Gregg Aune: My name is Gregg Auneo lam currently the new President of the CAA~ My address is 8705 Chanhassen Hills Drive North. We're here to present a proposal for bleachers at Bluff Creek. Here to present that is our administrator, Frank Scott. Frank Scott: Hello. I'm Frank Scott, administrator for the CAA. I have a bid here. I'm going to just hand it out... I come before you a couple months ago and we talked about doing some cooperative ventures. At that time I said we wouldn't do it piece meal but unfortunately we're trying to put together the big plan and it hasn't come together yet and this particular item would be something we'd like to have for our baseball and softball league which is coming up in April- May. The reason we're looking for bleachers at Bluff Creek is part of our program is to get the family together and get the parents out to watch the kids play. The kids like it a lot more when there's somebody back there watching them and cheering them on and saying nice catch and things like that. And with no bleachers over there, you're sitting on the ground. If somebody brings a chair along, then they've got it. Otherwise they're just sitting on the ground over there. There is no place for them to sit. What we're looking for is bleachers. The short ones. They're about 3 foot high. They're three levelso They seat about 30 people per bleacher. We would like to see two on every field. There's five fields over there at BluffCreek~ This bid that we have is for ten so the price per bleacher would be $559.00~ The Board of the CAA has authorized us to buy five of these. What we would be looking for is if the city could buy the other five~ Then we would have two bleachers at each field. One on each side at the backstop so people can do that. And that's the most common kind of bleacher you see. Because of some of the discussions on ~oleachers this last couple of weeks, these are only 3 foot off the ground. They're not high at all. And they are up to code according to Mike Korse who has looked into this so there should be no safety problems. It takes 4 to 6 weeks to get them. We'd certainly like to have them in place by May Is~. So if we could get, like I say, we'll pay for half of thern. If we could get you guys te pay the other half, it would be a good thJ. r~go Any question, s7 Roeser: These are just for the ba//fields, not the soccer fields'? Frank Scott: Well what would happen, they're light. They're aluminumo We would see repositioning them out along the soccer fields in the fall and then back. They wouldn't be necessarily anchored down. So they would do both soccer and softball-baseball. Moes: So they are portable then to move around? Frank Scott: Yeah. They're not very heavy. Moes: How many baseball games are there usually in a week7 Frank Scott: We have, we fill the thing up at least Monday through Thursday and sometimes on Saturdays. And in some cases we have actually two games a night on a single field. We start one game at 6:00 and the other one at 7:10 so on Tuesdays and Thursdays and we have the younger kids with the machine pitch. We have two games on one field. We don't do the, what would be called T~ball over here. Most of the stuff that's done there is, because of the electricity it's a machine pitch. We've got machine pitch both in baseball and in softball so most of the Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 games, then we also do the fast pitch softball because last year the city set up some mounds in which you set a different, four different positions so that we could have official baseball, meeting ASA requirements. So most of it's either softball or machine pitch baseball. Franks: What about during the winter? Would these be left out in the field or would you need some kind of storage space? Frank Scott: Well they're fairly good size. But they would be left out in the field. We left the soccer nets out this year and there was nobody messed with them so we're certainly hoping there won't be anybody tearing them up. But you never know. Lash: What you're proposing Frank is that the CAA would pay for half and Park and Rec would pay for half? Frank Scott: Yes. That would be what we'd propose. Lash: Do we have something in our budget this year for this? Hoffman: Not fbr this park but you do have, I know there's an allocation for Bandimere. 1 believe it's $20,000.00 for bleachers so you could utilize some of those dollars and ask the council to just transfer some money out of Ban&mere to the recreation center if you so choose. Lash: Does that cut us short then for Bandimere? Hoffman: Sure. A little bit. Franks: Todd, has there been any~= ~negotiations with vendors about bleachers fbr Bandi~nerc? What I'm wondering is if you were just looking at buying ever~hing all at once, about taking the per unit cost down if we can buy them... Hoffman: We can take a look at that. Franks: I'm just jumping in Frank. Maybe there's a way to swing this all. If we go ahead and purchase everything and CAA could still be responsible for their number or maybe even a few more if you got that dollar amount allocated and we could actually get more for our money. Frank Scott: When we put our bigger plan together, we assumed to be helping some at Bandimere also. We don't know what is being done there but we're sure we're going to need that. To step in someplace. One of the, this is a bid we got through Mike Korse at Midwest Playscape. I had also gotten a bid, Jerry called Steve? I believe Steve was his name. And his price for these same bleachers was about $200.00 more so. We may go out and get some more bids but there is some savings to be had if you want to do that. Lash: Well according to our policy of visitor presentations, this will be tabled until the next available agenda so does anyone have any other questions for Frank? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Moes: The question I have is f~otn the Bandimere standpointo When will those bleachers going to be coming in? What I'm hearing Frank ask is something for 1999 baseball, softball, soccer season. Is Bandimere's bleachers in that range or are they being ordered or are they? Lash: ...be able to use the fields? Hoffrnan: After mid-summer we'll be on those fields, yeah. Franks: After the next meeting could we possibly have a little rehash of...Bandimere?~ ~. Hoffman: Yeah, sure. Yeah, we can bring you some proposals for the whole, we'll have you take a look at it. Lash: Would that be available for next month or not? Howe: We'll have to decide. For May 1~t we've got to decide at the next meeting. Frank Scott: Pretty tight~ The one thing we can do is if you decide to go ahead, we could front the money immediately and then get it back. We do have a little buffer in our budge~ so if you ,decide to do it, we can put in our order and pay for them. Lash: I would say we'll be tabling this until the February meeting, and at that time we'll have more information regarding potential savings by doing a mass purchase and if you want to come that night to find out what's going on. Okay, thank you~ Frank Scott: Thank you.. Lash: Are there any other visitor presentations at this time? Laurie Gauer: I'm Laurie Gauer, River Bluff Service [Jnit of Girl Scouts Council of Greater Minneapolis Service Unit Manager. And Day Camp Director. And Cinda Jensen. She is one of the Assistant Directors out at our Day Camp and we are here to request usage of the paddleboats out at Lake Ann for our day camps this summer. We have hosted a day camp for the last eight years out at Minnewashta Regional and part of our camp is to have a water activity and preferably using some sort of watercraft. Did all of you receive this letter from Cinda and have had a chance to read it? Okay, so I won't need to go through that letter. A few of the points that Cinda and I wanted to make and then answer your questions on that. Was that we feel this activity will actually increase usage of your paddleboats by Chanhassen residents. About 30% or higher of the girls out at camp are Chanhassen residents. We can possibly even generate more revenue for you for a rental fee than you usually get during that week for the paddleboats. There would be no liability for you~ Insurance would be covered totally Girl Scouts. And hopefully we can work out something that you don't have any negative impact at Lake Ann. You know leaving one or'two parlrtle~ooats-there so, did you have anything else you wanted to add? 4 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 ~Cinda Jensen: No, I think that's it. We just want to ensure that there wouldn't be a negative impact for usage at Lake Ann. At the same time be able to offer this out to, we're estimating about 380 campers this summer at camp. And this services Victoria and Chanhassen and Chaska. But like Laurie mentioned, about a third of those girls are Chanhassen residents. Laurie Gauer: Any questions? Lash: Yeah, we'll take questions. Mike, do you have any? Howe: I have more for Jerry. Lash: Okay. Does anybody have questions for Laurie at this time? Howe: No, I don't have any, no~ 1 think the letter's well done. Lash: Okay. Go ahead Mike. Howe: Can we do this? 1 mean how many boats do we have? Ruegemer: We currently have five paddleboats out at Lake Ann. What I did today was pull out the 1998 boat revenues and did an average daily, kind ora revenue type of for those paddleboats throughout the course of summer. And basically the daily rental fee was right around $30.00. So if they, you know times that by however many days that they would like to use it, that would be roughly what, about $120.00 roughly for the rental fee for that~ If you take the average of that. Moes: I'm sorry, Jerry is that $30.00 per boat per day or $30.00 per day? Ruegemer: That was overall. Howe: ...leaving one. Ruegemer: I'm sorry? Howe: Would you recommend leaving one there...? Ruegemer: I would, if the commission decides to grant this request tonight, yes. I would like to have at least one on site to do rentals for the general publico Howe: I don't have a problem with that. ! think if you left one behind, I'm okay with it. Lash: Okay, Dave. Moes: That covered my question. Lash: Rod. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Franks: You mentioned we'd leave one or two back~ Laurie Gauer: Well whatever you felt was comfortable, you know. We need them all but, you know the more we have out there the more program we can offer to the girls. Quality programming but we are also looking at getting paddleboats from neighbors around Lake Minnewashta also so~ You know again we don't want to negatively impact Lake Ann and if I was a resident going out to Lake Ann planning to use a paddleboat, you know I would want to make sure there's at least one there. Franks: In your letter you mentioned that you'd do the transporting too. Do you have the equipment? Trailers? Laurie Gauer: Yeaho Last year we had sailboats out there and transported them back and forth. The year before it was canoes. Franks: Would they be returned daily or would you? Laurie Gauer: No, they'd be chained and locked out at Minnewashta. Franks: All right, so you. Laurie Gauer: And we do notify the Carver County Sheriff that they're out thereo Carver County Parks are aware of it. Marty Walsh. You know they keep an eye on it. The City of Chan so everybody is aware that they are out there and kind of keep au eye on them for ~,s too. Lash: Do you have ~nything Fred? Berg: No. I would support this I think if Jerry, you can assure me that we can ieave enough paddleboats there to serve the public. So that there's no citizen that comes and says I wanted to use one and it wasn't there. So I think we have to balance that against this obvious good too~ So if you can get some hard numbers on what we could realistically expect at that time in the summer. Lash: Ron. Roeser: Yeah, basically it's kind of up to Jerry. To what you can operate with. I think it's kind of, I would go along with your decision. Whatever you think works out for you~ Lash: I would want to make sure that before we did this, the paddleboats were checked thoroughly by staff or someone to make sure that everyone's in agreement with the~..so that when we turn them over to you there's no misunderstanding~. ~this was on it when we got it or this wasn't on it when we got iL And so that's, so we're real clear on if there are any kinds of damages or youknow~ I mean obviously there's going to a lot more wear and tear in one week than...yeah, and that's the reason you're going to have them so that's a little bit ora concern too. 6 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 And the other thing would be, I guess you know I'm a huge Girl Scout supporter and I used to be a leader and I think this is a great idea. But I would want to be careful that we don't set precedent for other types of requests like this. I do think Girl Scouts is an organization. 1 wouldn't want you know a neighborhood to come and say we want to have our neighborhood picnic. Can we take them over to Lake Susan or you know. This could open a whole can of worms for us so I think we need to be really careful on how this is handled and that it's pretty clear that it's an organization or something. That's ail. $o given all those comments, is there someone would at least, we can't really take action on it tonight anyway. We have to...together as a commission and then we can act on it in February. So you're welcome to come back in February or we can contact you. Whichever is the most convenient for you. Laurie Gauer: Thank you for your time. Lash: Okay, any other visitor presentations this evening? Okay, seeing none we'll move on to Approval of Minutes. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash: Is there anyone with corrections to the Minutes? I have one. it's sort ora large type correction and it really is no one's fault. It's not Nann's fault...my fault. In that we did not have listed on here the fact that Mayor Mancino and Council member Jansen were in attendance and there are comments made on the record, although it says audience dot, dot, dot. A lot of them weren't picked up but that those comments were made. There were only two audience members here that night. And also at the end of the meeting, previous to our, previous to me calling the question for adjournment, there was some discussion between Mayor Mancino and the council regarding a couple different items that are not reflected I think because the tape recorder wasn't going and I would like to have some type of acknowledgment to the topic that was discussed that evening and as I recall it was BluffCreek corridor and the senior citizens had a request of a garden or something.°. Does anybody remember differently than that'? Todd, do you have notes at all from that? Hoffrnan: I sure do. Lash: Okay. Could you dojust kind of a little summary type of thing that could be added to the record for that? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: And you knowjust in the future I will...making sure that people in the audience are coming to the podium when they are on the record so that we have that on the official record. Okay? Given that correction, is there anyone that will make a motion to approve? Berg: So moved. Lash: Is there a second? Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 26, 1999 Howe: Second. Berg moved, Howe seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated December 15, 1998 amended to reflect the discussion between the commission and Mayor Mancino at the end of the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ELECT 1999 CHAIR PERSON AND VICE CHAIR PERSON. Lash: So, how do we do that? Open foro Hoffman: Open for nominations~ Among the members. Howe: I nominate you again Mike. Lash: Oh thanks Mike. Berg: Second Lash: Anyone else who's you know dying fbr this.~/? Yes, so I, ifl am reappointed would gladly accept that position° Okay, do we need to vote on that? Hoffman: Yes. Howe moved, Berg seconded to appoint 3anet Lash as Chairwoman of the Park Recreation Commission for 1909~ Al~ voted in favor, except Lash who absla~.ed.~ ~.~_~ the~ motion carded, Lash: Okay, do we have a nomination for Vice Chair? Roeser: It might as well be Fred Berg againo Lash: Fred does a good job~ Berg: There's an overwhelming endorsement. Roeser: That's what you told me to sayo Lash: Fred, are you up to that challenge? Berg: Sure. Lash: Okay. Any ol'her nominations? Okay, all in favor of Fred as Vice Chaff? 8 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Roeser moved, Lash seconded to appoint Fred Berg as Vice Chairman of the Park and Recreation Commission for 1999. All voted in favor, except Berg abstained and the motion carried. Franks: ...both of you had 100% attendance record for 1998. SPECIAL RECREATION SERVICES AGREEMENT; BARB LEMKE~ DIRECTOR OF RECREATION AND INCLUSION SERVICES AND MARY PERKINS~ EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR; WEST HENNEPIN COMMUNITY SERVICES. Beitel: Thank you Chairman and commissioners. I have asked Barb Lemke, who is the Director of Recreation and Inclusion Services for West Hennepin Community Services and Mary Perkins, who is the Executive Director of West Hennepin Community Services to come and talk to us about their consortium that they have and explain some of the details of how that could work for us. As being a part of this special recreation services so. Give you a chance to ask questions afterwards. Mary Perkins: I'm Mary Perkins. I'm the Director of West Hennepin and we heard a couple of months ago from Dawn that there might be an interest here in working in a collaborative way to provide adaptive recreation services so what I'd like to do is just take a few minutes to explain what West Hennepin Community Services is and then to focus in on the recreation consortium and describe how it works and then how the different parties play a role. West Hennepin Community Services is a non-profit organization, lt's located in Hopkins and it's been around for about 15 years. We work with people with developmental disabilities and their families and we have a mission that's two fold. Our first mission is to help people be as independent as possible. And the second is to help people be included in the communities in which they live to the greatest extent possible. Developmental disabilities is kind of a broad base term that covers lots of different syndromes and conditions, and I have a handout here that describes the major kinds of things that developmental disabilities covers and that will describe to you our basic population. West Hennepin is a community support program so we like to help people with many facets of their lives in a holistic kind of way. We have a counseling service. We have a licensed psychologist that does individual family and group work. We have an outreach service. We have outreach workers who go out and locate isolated people and families and help them with basic assistance and hook them up with services. We have an education in field training service. We have trainers that go out into people's apartments and train them in basic living skills so that they can live independently. We provide empowennent and support groups. We try to be a place where people can gather and meet others with similar challenges and learn how to advocate for themselves and get what they believe they need in the community. We do have the large therapeutic recreation program. That is our largest service and by far the most popular service. My background is social work but I can tell you that I've really become a believer in therapeutic recreation as a very important tool in helping people, both to develop skills to be included in the community and to develop in many, many ways and I'm a real proponent of therapeutic recreation. Last year we served about 500 individuals in our recreation department. We also have an inclusion service. We try to not recreate the world as we know it for people with disabilities but help them to use the existing services that the general public uses and so our Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 inclusion services help people access lots of different kinds of things, including park and recreation service. That's one of the main areas that we work on in our inclusions, but we also help people hook up with other services like community ed, housing services, transportation, and the like. We also do information and referrals so if we don't have something people need, we try to find and steer them to the right place. And lastly we have advocacy so if something doesn't exist, we try to help people connect with others to advocate for unmet needs. So that's in general what goes on at West Hennepino It's a small organization. We have 10 core staff and we have between 25 and 50 part time rep assistants that are working at any given time. The summers are the busiest. If you take a look at our brochure it will give you the overview of the services that we have. Now the recreation consortium. We have been collaborating with a variety of municipalities since 1986 to provide adaptive recreation services. But even before we were around, a number of communities had decided to work together to provide this kind of service. Collaboration has two basic advantages. One is that you can pool your resources with other communities and so it's a very cost effective way to go. And secondly, it helps you develop critical mass. People with disabilities are a small portion of the population and sometimes you need to get together with other communities to, if you want to have something like an athletic league that requires some numbers for example. Right now we have 12 towns, 12 municipalities that we have contracts with~ We essentially divide them into two consortiums. We have the west area consortium that has Hopkins,, Minnetonka and St. Louis Park in it. Then we have the northwest consortium and there's eight northwestern suburbs in northern Hennepin County~ New Hope, Robbinsdale, Crystal, Brooklyn Park, Brooklyn Center, Maple Grove, Golden Valley, did I forget any? There's eight of them up there. The way the consortions are structured is that we blend a variety of funding streams together to provide for the service and then we do joint planning and try to provide programs in each community. The west area consortion for example last, or this year is about a $54,000.00 program but 'we've got some county and federal fm3.ds tl~a~ we can tap into because we are a non-profit organizations Then we do charge fees~ All participants pay fees~ We also use do~ations from civic and business groups and the~ o'a~ city contracts and those wot~ld be the different revenue streams that we blend together to l~rovide the program. We use a therapeutic recreation specialist. Barb can tell you a little bit about her background, to provide the service and she would be the one that would direct, design and implement the program. The service is essentially a partnership. It's not that you would use us and then you'd just go home and forget about it. We would work with you, whoever your contact would be. If it would be Dawn perhaps. Then we would meet with her and she would play a close role in helping us design the activities. What we do essentially is on this contract, this is our 1999 contract and it's essentially designing, implementing the program. Hiring the staff. Training, monitoring, designing the service° Some towns do their own inclusions and so you can purchase that separately if you want to do your own inclusions° That's certainly a possibility. Also I want to point out that we do have the support of other staff who can work with Barb. We have a licensed psychologist. A licensed social worker. A special education teacher and skilled trainer and client advocates who are also available for consultation to therapeutic recreation. So we feel like we pull from many disciplines to provide the service. Here's the contract. You can look that over~ What you guys would need to do is the marketing. You would need to make sure residents are aware of the service° We're a relatively small organization so we don't have a big marketing arm. This is for example what the city of Minnetonka puts out° This is their park and recreation brochure. They've got a page in here called adaptive recreation and 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 the programs are listed. This goes to every resident in the city of Minnetonka, which is a tremendous marketing tool and one that we wouldn't have available to us. We do have a newsletter. This goes out four times per year but of course you have to call us and get on the mailing list. Otherwise we wouldn't send one to you. So the marketing, reaching out to your residents would really be a city responsibility. If you look in here you'll see the different programs that we're currently offering. We have children's programs. Teen and adults and Barb can get into a little bit more about that. Then you would provide locations for us as well. You know gymnasiums, community centers, whatever. Pools. Whatever it is that people want. W would look to you to help us secure those locations at a no cost, on a no cost basis. And then whatever other assistance you can give us. If you have supplies or donated equipment that we can use or connect us with others in your community that might be able to give us some...wondered how many people with disabilities are in Chanhassen. That's always an interesting question. I did a little bit of a study for you. You take your population. You can multiply it by 3%. That will give you a very rough idea. Some people like to use the term 10%, which is a little bit larger chunk. When you look at special recreational services, not everyone with a disability needs one. If you have a slight speech impediment, a slight hearing impairment, you probably would just use general recreation. So 1 think the 3% is probably a little bit better way to go in thinking about potential users ora service. We also pulled some special education numbers and you do have large numbers in the Chaska school system, and I understand that Minnetonka is also part of your, you have Chaska and Minnetonka schools that you're representing so I had just mentioned to Todd that you might want to think about pulling the City of Chanhassen in because sometimes there's issues about some students being eligible and other students not being eligible. But that's, anyway this is a little bit ora study. Righ! now I think we calculated we have 49 people in our current data base from your area. Do you have any questions for me? Otherwise I'll turn you over to Barb and she can tell you a little more specifically. Howe: You mentioned the revenues. You said fees were part of the, the participant had to pay that. What ifa participant couldn't pay the fee? Mary Perkins: Ifa participant cannot pay a fee, it will be waived. That's part of our county funding on that and our federal Medicaid funding. They do have to contact us though. Franks: Can you explain a little bit more about, it's $2,000.00 to initiate the contract for the first year and then after that the change in future years based on usage. Can you explain that process? Mary Perkins: Yeah. The way I structure the budget is I come up with the total, xvhich this year was $54,000.00. Then I have my subsidies. I've got Medicaid. I've got county funding. That's Hennepin County funding but we are interested in approaching Carver County so that might be an advantage to us. Then we subtract the fees and we get down to a base amount. Then we charge each town a base and then whatever is left over, whatever remaining amount is left over, we multiply that times the number of participants. The percent of participants from the prior year. So if you had 20% of the participants, then you would be charged 20% of the remainder. This year, just'to give you a rough idea, I think it was, we're at about $2,000.00 for the City of Hopkins. $9,000.00 for St. Louis Park and about $20,000.00 for the City of Minnetonka. So 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 they carried the bulk. They had 68% of the participants. So it varies depending on how many users you have. In your early years, you're only at 18,000 people. I think Hopkins is at 16,000 so you probably would be similar to Hopkinsm Although I'll bet in this community you have a lot of children and so there might be lots of users. It would be, we'd have to just see. Lash: So that fee is on top of the fees that people are charged? Mary Perkins: Yes. Yes. Lash: That's the city's fees? Mary Perkins: Right. That would be your contract amount and then individuals pay. Lash: Chaska's not a part of, Chaska isn't in your. Mary Perkins: Right in the west we have Hopkins, Minnetonka, and St. Louis Park~ Hoffman: The City of Chaska is showing a great deal of interest however° Lash: Yeah, I was thinking Chaska offered something. Somewhere..o Mary Perkins: There is an adult community ed program. Magnifying abilities. Is that it? Lash: Yeah. Mary Perkins: That's for adults and it's under the community ed program and they d::; ~:iv<: some recreation. Lash: But currently now they have nothing for children? Mary Perkins: No. That is only an adult prograrn. Well let me turn you over to Barb~ She can tell you a little more specifically about the kinds of things that, the kinds of activities. Barb Lemke: I'm actually a rec programmer that does recreation for people with disabilities so. We get to the do the fun stuff as all these rec programmers know. I'm going to tell you a little bit about myself first. Because I would be the contact person from West Hennepin because I'm in recreation. Actually I'm a certified therapeutic recreation specialist. Basically what that means is that I'm recognized by a Board to perform recreation for a special population. And those special populations are considered to be children, people with disabilities, seniors, youth at risk. Kind of those groups that are kind of you know on the outsides always so that's kind just to give you a quick overview of kind of what therapeutic recreation is. We get trained to learn how to program specialized just for those populations. I went to the University of Minnesota and graduated there with a Bachelors in Therapeutic Recreation through the Park and Rec Departmerrt. I aclwa'lty'h'ave -about l'03rears of experience working with people with developmental disabilities, and you all got the handout on that. Just to kind of classify that. I 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 had some experience working with people with physical disabilities. Also with mental illness. 1 think that we're starting to see a lot more people diagnosed with different, varying disabilities. We're seeing a lot of children with emotional and behavioral disorders that people are coming to and saying we want a special program for them also. So that's just a little bit of a future I think that's coming. They're going to actually want to be included in their community somehow. One thing I wanted to mention that with the service we, a big part of also what we can do. We'll have, I'll go through some of the programs that we have and can program down here. Also the cities that we work with now really find it, I guess a great asset to have me on the other end of the phone. Just to be able to pick it up and go Barb, we have this child. Da, da, da. We don't know what is going on. You know. And I know the programmers in the other cities have used that a lot. You know saying can you come out and just, can you just come out and watch him or her for a while. And it's really convenient for them to just give my number to someone who calls and says you know, do you have this and I can pretty much assess over the phone if you know they fit into our programming or where they would fit in the best. Also training, and I do a lot of training for the park staff in the summer. 1 actually go to the cities and train their park staff on disability awareness and I can train anybody on disability awareness or anything that you need at any time. So that's a real nice asset to have too. Because l'mjust on the other side of the line. For programs. I'm going to, we need to hand out the newsletter. Mary mentioned our newsletter. In there we have listed all our adaptive recreation programs and when I say adaptive recreation that means programs primarily for people with disabilities. I know there's a parent here tonight. One of my t~avorite parents. I had to say that. But she made a good point before that children don't always fit into your regular, you know we can do an inclusion and include a child into regular ball. I'll use that for an example but sometimes that just doesn't always work. Or parents want them to make friends with kids with other disabilities or whatever their reasoning so we have adaptive programming. This programming is not closed to people without disabilities though. And actually in one of the programs, the children's programs, Out and About it's called and that's a group that actually, it's kind of more ora social group for children and on Saturdays, Saturday a month and they'll go to, we like to use community centers. They go swimming maybe at the community center you know at one of our communities. Or go to a playland. They go to you know sliding downhill or something like that and xve fully staff that. Whatever the child's need is. But that program, now I forgot my point... But that program is adaptive but we have, I know what my point was. We have actually a sibling. He's come along with her sister who doesn't have a disability and has joined the group. And that's we call, actually it's a fancy term for it called reverse inclusion. Or reverse mainstreaming. But that's really what you shoot for. You want, I mean it's open to everyone and she was like wow. That sounds really fun so she wanted to come. Another children's program that has been popular is gymnastics. What we would do there is have an instructor that would adapt some of the, the big thing with gymnastics is getting space, but adapting you know the things that they do. It's basically adapting ito Understanding the children's needs. Bowling is a big program. Has increased. That's a Saturday program. And all these children's programs, whatever the needs of the child, we would support them with a staff ratio. Because sometimes the child needs maybe one staff just to keep an eye on him or her or to help assist them. And when I say an assistant, I guess I think of it this way. Is when you break an arm or break a leg I guess more often, is you need a crutch or maybe a Wheelchair to get around or something like that. This is what the staff would do. Especially with an inclusion. They would help that child to participate whatever they would need. So it 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 may be just explaining instructions° Again, maybe you know if you've got a group of 30 children and you know your coach is telling them instructions or your instructor, he might, or she might miss part of the instructions so they would help to explain them maybe again or you know things like that. So I kind of like to describe it like that. But with Out and About again, if we needed 6 staff for 5 children, you know we would provide that because our goal again is to get these children into the community and to doing things. And actually to make friends. A lot of our kids don't have a lot of real close friends and it's a nice thing for them. Teenagers. We have all the categories covered. Teenagers are getting to be a real growing group. Since I've been there I know that our Teen Explorer Group, which is a social group. Social groups are really very, very important. They're very, there's real high attendance. Again they see that as their place to go and to be with their friends. And it can be real simple things. This is a sample of, once they register and they fill out the registration form and they would get this in the mail with all these activities...and we use different venues in the community. Again space. We would use a community center room and have, what did we have last week? Wacky Olympic Night. You know things like that. And I've been learning, it doesn't have to be real, real fancy. They just like to get together like any other teenagers and just have a good time. We staff it. And the number one thing parents are after is that it's a safe environment and that they have fun and make friends. That's all parents ask from us so it's a pretty easy job in that way~ We have bowling for teenagers and then in the summer we have softball~ And that has grown also. I would think there'd be a lot of teenagers down here. I know Carol's got a teenager coming up soo I've been around and I've seen some kids now and they're all teenagers so. With our adults. Our adult population is the biggest population that we serve in number wise~ We have actually three social groups with our adults. We actually on Wednesday evenings we serve about, I've got about 65 people that we serve in two differen~ social groups. One up in Crystal at the community center and then one more in the Minnetonka/Hopkins/St. Louis Park area~ Again, it's the same, I've go~ some fliers here with different activities tha'~ we do It's the same thing~ They co~oe Wednesday and they do, you kr~o~' they go sledding They're going sledding tom~:~x;>¢, mght somebody's going to tour a radio smtion~ Al~d then we have a Saturday eveni~g pxogram that is called On the Town that is a fairly new program. We had some consumers, participants come up to us and say, and we're very you know in touch. We want to hear what people have to say and then develop programs from that. If that's what they want. There were a group of individuals, primarily adults. Some that may live independent. Some independently in the community have real high skills. Some may even drive. You know take buses independently and things. And they wanted to go out on Saturday nights, just like all other young adults did so we developed this program. We actually only have one staff that goes because everyone is able to take care of all their own needs out in the community and to monitor their own behavior and things and we have all those guidelines. You know I set all those up and things. But that's a really popular program. We actually have about 25 people that are signed up for that also. And we also just got a new transportation grant. Mary didn't mention that but we're also working on transporting. Transportation for people with disabilities is a huge issue. We have all these wonderful things but we have people that can't get there because they either don't drive or Metro doesn't go out to their area or it does, but it only goes out until 7:00 and there's all these issues. So we've got actually a grant from Met Council to do some transportation to some of our, especially our social groups and some educational and athletics. I'm going to pass a book aroun& This actually has some pictures in of some of our groups. People having fun. With athletics we actually 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 collaborate in our athletic programs with Hammer Residence, which is a group home agency over in Wayzata. They have a rec and a volunteer coordinator and they provide staff and volunteer at athletic leagues and we do all the administrative part and then the YMCA through Ridgedale YMCA also provides some staff and volunteers also. Our softball league, we actually have 140 people that play softball. We have about 12 teams in the summer on two different nights. And then in basketball we have 120 people that play on two different nights. And that's growing too. We actually had, I had like 20 people on one team. Switching them every 5 minutes to, and that's primarily run by volunteers and coached so that is very successful and there's definitely room for more growth there. We have bowling. I should say this. Our programs run 9 weeks. So when we say a quarter, it runs 9 weeks in a row. We actually have 80 people that bowl on Saturdays and that's every 9 weeks and that's throughout the year. So that's a lot of bowlers and they're really good bowlers. They're a lot better than I am. And then we have dances once a month, which is actually a favorite of mine because I'm at every dance and we average around 80 people for that once a month and that's a real big social time too. And again, a lot of people will go to, they don't go to everything but they'll go to, they'll either be really involved in athletics or come to the dances or come to social programs and things like that. And then I'll just say something about inclusions. We, our big inclusions are in the summer for playgrounds. That's primarily when we do, because obviously children are out, but we can do inclusions and again that xvould meet the child's need at an area playground. Depending on the need of the child, we may you know have 1 staff for 3 children depending on their need. But I know parents are very, they're very appreciative of that service because it's very nice that they can get out and play with children in their neighborhood. And then this last summer we had some teen centers that we had started. And that xvas really popular also. We have again teens don't have any place to go. There were a couple teen centers that we tapped into in St. Louis Park and in Maple Grove and we had an inclusion facilitator there that would help include teenagers into that so~ I think that's all I have. Questions? I know I was getting a little long but. Franks: So the transportation for Chanhassen residents, that would be open to adults and children or? I'm looking at some of the events probably would be planned in St. Louis Park or Hopkins or Minnetm~a. Is it their responsibility to get to these events? Barb Lemke: Yeah. if you would contract us, they would be able to use our service. Franks: Transportation service? Barb Lemke: Yeso You see the cities that are in our consortion, yes. Franks: That's what I'm wondering. If we were to contract with you, so there'd be a central pick-up point in Chanhassen or? Barb Lemke: No, they'd actually go to their home. Franks: Go right up to their home. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Barb Lemke: Yeah. With Out and About we've done it a little differently~ We actually have had pick-up sites in Maple Grove. The parents, I mean we haven't really, we're starting more with the adults first. The teen program you know may go there. ! don't know yet. We really haven't examined that part yet. Mary Perkins: The transportation services is brand new. It just started, it hasn't started. Actually it's going to start next week so we're just in the process of getting it going but yes, we would consider coming down to the Chanhassen and picking up. You have to be able to ride unsupervised. Or provide your own escort. That would be the main limitation. The other thing about contracting with us is that we would try to provide programs in Chanhassen. And what we would probably begin with is some kind of a focus group° Relying on some of our current contacts and talking to people about the kinds of programs that they would want to have, but we'd definitely do at least a few programs right in Chanhassen. Franks: And what you'd need from us for that is space. Mary Perkins: Location, marketing. Any other support you could give. Volunteers. Whatever. Lash: I might have misunderstood what you said. You'd be starting with adults or you? Mary Perkins: We'd start with a focus group. And if the fbcus group said gee, we'd really like to start with some children. My sense 'would be children's programming. That would be my guess but we would look at the focus group. One thing about the organization, we're really grass roots driven. And we will do what the consumers want us to do. So if they would like us to begin with children's programming, that would be my guess in this community. And ther~ we would take a look at, if there are adults, do you know if you have group homes here fo~ example'? I know Rolling Acres is out here scl that's ~;,ne large residential facility that we ~;',:,~d !.,:~,c,k a'~: fo~ adults. Barb Lemke: Also, what is the name of the com~nunity ed. Mary Perkins: Ma~,mifying Abilitieso Barb Lemke: Yeah, we could also. Mary Perkins: Connect with them. Barb Lemke: Connect with them and maybe do some things together because we do do that with project SOAR which is the adult community ed with disabilities group. Up in Minnetonka, Hopkins area and we do our dances with them so we might be able to collaborate there. Because we don't, we're realizing, and I'm sure you know that, you don't want to just duplicate these services that are, you know we want to overlap and work together and that's what we're all about SO. 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 26, 1999 Howe: We need to talk to Chaska maybe too. We should see what they're thinking. We have nothing now, do we? Nothing? Okay. Mary Perkins: It'd be nice if Chaska would join too because then you'd have both of those communities and you wouldn't have that school district split. Lash: ...the adult program already, it'd be nice to have something... Plus you know the Community Center is there so if we wanted to have something that obviously could have in Chaska and we could obviously have... Anyone else with questions? Comments? Moes: Help me understand now like staffing like function and then looking for volunteers. How do you do the staffing and then where would volunteers come in? I heard you mention that. Barb Lemke: We primarily pay part time staff. I don't like to. Franks: Can I just jump in on that point. That was partly my question too. Would we be responsible to provide volunteers also? Barb Lemke: No. We would take care of all the staffing. And when I can say staffing, I mean volunteers in there. For example my teen group now, I just had some people call up and wanted to volunteer, which doesn't happen a lot. We don't have a volunteer coordinator. So primarily with the registration fees, what that pays for is the program has to pay for itselt: It will pay for the staff there. And you know if we can get some volunteers, that would be great. It gets, 1 have a lot of contacts with the University of Minnesota Park and Rec Division there and I'll get some volunteers through there but because I, 1 don't know. Personally I think with the needs of our participants and I just think people will stay longer They're more reliable. I know that years ago you started out with volunteers though. Mary Perkins: Yes we do but you do need paid staff because you do have to have people that are reliable but if you have contacts, if you have a civic groups If you know ora pool of people who could assist us, all I'm saying is just give us those contacts and then we try to develop a network. Barb Lemke: Yeah, and that's why the collaboration with Hammer and the YMCA, they have a really good base of volunteers that come to the organization so we use them as volunteer coaches and then I have a couple of paid staff there but that's the whole idea of collaborating. We'll work that way so. Franks: Dawn, I just have a quick question. On the back of your information sheet in our packet you had mentioned that the $2,000.00 was already included in the 1999 budget. I have a hard time trying to remember exactly what part of the budget that ~vas included. Was that a specific, Todd? Hoffman: In recreation programs, 145 Fund 145, recreation programso Franks: Did we specifically set that aside? 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Hoffman: Yes. Lash: So then it was already... Hoffman: Yes. Franks: Well that's what I recall so, okay. Beitel: I think it was just titled special recreation programs. Hoffman: And the council talked specifically about it. They questioned us over the variety of mechanisms which would use, we could utilize to provide these services and that would be to hire our own staffD Join a consortion. Contract and at this base level it seems very affordable and the council agreed with that. Lash: I'd definitely be interested in..Chaska and Carver County being approache& Any more discussions? Moes: The year 2000 cost, that would be based on participation, ifi remember you calculation between Minnetonka, St. Louis Park and Hopkins. Lash: How far into the year would you be able to give us some kind of an estimate of what it would be for the following year? Mary Perkins: Well the other cities dc~ their budgets in July so I'm usually two year:~ ~.~hir~dD i'm looking at, you know for the '99 budget I looked at '97 statistics so I do the budgets ~, M~y and June and they're presented in July so, are yot~ on a similar calendar? Do it in the surd. met? 'The budget. Hoffman: Yeah, we do our budget during the summer but it's a calendar year. Mary Perkins: On, it's on the calendar year? Okay. Hoffman: But we start in July and August and September. Lash: So for us to make our budget we'd have that information by August. Mary Perkins: Well that would be similar to the other cities. Also, we would have you in a group and if Dawn were the representative for example then she would come and we meet quarterly with the cities and interact and get feedback and issues can be addressed four times per year. And we'd hand out statistics or deal with whatever issues we need to~ 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Moes: So if I understand correctly, anyone in the consortion would be able to attend this event, is that correct? Do you ever have a situation where you're looking for a minimum and you don't reach that minimum? It didn't sound like it, okay. Barb Lemke: Yeah we have with children's programming. We've offered Karate and then I had problems getting an instructor so, that wanted to work with children with disabilities. But for gymnastics we've had that. We try to make programs and see what happens. Moes: Okay. Franks: Sounds good. Lash: So tonight you're looking for a motion Dawn? Beitel: Do l just refer you back to the recommendation here? Lash: Is that what you're looking for? Beitel: Yes. Lash: Okay. Is there a motion? Franks: Well I would move that we enter into a one year agreement with the W.HoCoS. in the amount of $2,000 to provide special recreation services to our city. Howe: Call Chaska now? I'd like to talk to Chaska. Can we have staff do that'? Hoffman: Yes. Yeah, we're talking with them now. Tom Redmond, the Director of Parks at~d Recreation and Chaska called today and I said I would package up your information and send it down and lhen you can follow up with a phone call. Franks: And I have no problem with Chanhassen being a leader on this one. Howe: Second. Franks moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends that the City Council enter into a one year agreement with W.H.C.S. in the amount of $2,000 to provide special recreation services to residents of Chanhassen, which includes both Carver and Hennepin Counties. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER FOX CHASE/CARVER BEACH PEDESTRIAN TRAIL CONNECTION. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: One quick question for you Todd .... was agreed upon. That was prior to development of the homes there. Hoffman: Correct. Lash: So people when they bought the lots should have known? Hoffman: Yeah, it was prior, Was this home built in '86? The Kreisler's home... Berg: So it was built in '88? Moes: Another quick question. Under Option B, which is the construct a trail terminating Mohawk. What would I guess prevent the usage of where they're currently going now then? Hoffman: If the property was developed, people would be very hesitant to go down.~ .property owner... They planted trees in the middle of that walkway now. Moes: Okay. Hoffman: ... Lash: Okay, are there other cornmissiorter questions for Todd? Franks: Todd, is it possible or~ this 10 tbot easement to put in a 10 foot trail? Hoffman: No. Franks: So we'd be looking at some k/nd of'a~ aggregate? Ho£fman: I think we'd want to go the bituminous for the erosion and probably a 6 ~(bot trail that would not be plowed in the winter.°. Franks: But on the southerly segment, that would be a 10 foot? ~o.Lot 19. Hoffrnan: I still think at this point we'd be looking at a 6 foot connectors... They're both, both connections, both areas have steep grades. This is also a steep grade going down hill...would have to take measures to... Audience: But it has to be bituminous? Hoffman: It doesn't have to be... Lash: That's all right. We're just asking commissioner questions and then it's for you guys to come up to the podium but we have to have you on the microphone otherwise 'the tape ~'ecorder doesn't pick you up~ 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Moes: So the 6 foot wide trail that was initially, proposed would start from the, I guess you go back to the first picture which is the stake. Hoffman: This right here? Moes: Right. I mean does it start from the stake on the left and go 6 feet in to the right? Is that how that would be done? Hoffman: Well the first configuration was done right here..° Moes: So I remember it was 18.3 feet from the stake to the house so we're like 12 feet away now. Okay. Lash: Okay~ Other commissioner questions? Okay, we'll open it up to the audience then and I'll ask that you come forward and state your name and address so we have that for the record. Oh sure. Sorry~ (A video tape presentation was given at this point in the meeting.) The address here is 764 Lake Point. The purpose of this video is to produce the proverbial a picture's worth a thousand words. I'm sorry we all have to meet under these circumstances but I thought this xvould be particularly helpful. The issue here is a path that is being proposed to be placed right to the east of the house to access Lotus Lake presumably down this area here~ You'll note that the steep hole that's in the middle, is in the middle of a path that is currently traveled by many residents and non-residents who like to access the lake through this particular area... Todd Hoffman has contracted with surveyors, commissioned surveyors rather to identify the appropriate landmarks of the property line so that we could see just where the proposed path would go. I think originally project proponents assumed that the pathway would be there and that is in fact probably where they thought the property line was. As it turns out the property line is right there. You'll notice the pink flag on the stake and let's see ifI can zoom in. That is actually the property line and relative to it's relationship to the house, you can begin to see the house structure there is very, very close. The ski pole that is directly to the right of the marker is about 5 feet from the pole. A little less than 5 feet, 5 feet actually and that is also where our improved property begins. That is to say that is where our lawn is. The next ski pole to the right is 5 feet from the other ski pole. From the property line to the second ski pole you have approximately 10 feet. As you can see that's smack dab in the middle of our lawn. Now we'll move down the project a little bit. I've actually only moved in a straight line... To the my left there s the surveyor's mark and then the two ski poles as I indicated earlier. If you look off into the distance you'll see another pole. Another marker by the surveyors. Let's see if! can zoom in for you here. And again over to the right you've got the side of the house. We'll walk down a little closer. Okay, from here you can see the marker off to the left. It's a surveyor's marker with a pink flag and then as you move to the right you've got the first ski pole, which is about 5 feet from the surveyor's 'mark and then the second ski pole is 10 ~et from the property line. In here you'll note that the second ski pole is just a few feet away from our actual home and it is right 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- January 26, 1999 smack dab in the middle of our grass way to the back yard. This presents quite a problem. The intended path would be actually to the left of the surveyor's marker. At least that's I think where people think the path is supposed to goo And then off in the distance to the left there, you can also see where the surveyor has made another mark. I'm sorry, another mark where in theory the path would curve around. The property line and the nature of the amount of property that would be seized by easement, presumably by easement rights is a huge invasion of privacy and an encroachment upon our dwelling. Originally we were hoping that the pathway would be there. We all thought it might be but unfortunately it is not. It is on the Hedlund's property. Barb and Greg Hedlund living to the left of that. So ! hope this is a helpful illustration° Let me back up and give you kind of a broader shot now. So there is the home. You can see the pathway heading back. Again, more than half of that pathway would be seized through "easement" to put a path and then over to the left is where most people travel today. Not that we necessarily approve of that travel but we recognize that folks need to get down that direction. It turns out again that's all Barb Hedlund, or Greg and Barb Hedlund's property. All things considered, I find the project unacceptable and unfortunately we will have to do whatever we can to legally stop any forward momentum on this project. Thank you. Lash: Okay. We'll open it upo Yes? Ann Miller: My name is Ann Miller and I live on Fox Path. 6561~ I guess I feel sorry that that happened to you but it seems to me that your realtor' or whomever you purchased it from should have made you aware of where that was° I had the same problem, a similar problem at my house. On Fox Path. I didn't, I legally tried to fight it. It was over a different circumstances and I lost the arbitration but what I want to know is, were you aware of this at all when you purchased your home? Okay. And I guess if you choose the short route and the Hedlund's agree to do it, t~ move the, we abandon Option A and go with Option B, would that be suitable to you without a legal? Okay. All right I'll jus~ speak for' myself. Only I just wish that there wo~ald be access to the lake for us because I was aware of the easemen't when I bought the house. T?~a~:. w~s one thing my realtor did right and said that we would have lake access through that area. Barbara Kreisler: I'm Barbara Kreisler, Lot 20. And one of the things on one of the pictures, This is...I realize there were easements in the plans back in '93 but that was before our house was even built... So we are, I know there needs to be some type of path but I'm, it's going to take the value of my home. We're in an upper bracket neighborhood and we have...impact the value? Will it affect our privacy? When we moved out here we picked a neighborhood where it was... In the summer you can't see anybody behind uso We have a lot next to us. We have, you know with the exception when there are people traveling that path but when it gets publicized and people are parking and, I have motorcycles coming up and I have snowmobilers coming up. We're going to see more of that... I don't mind people walking the yar& I just, I don't want to lose my whole side yard...I think anybody else in this situation would again.., real clear but the property line...one is here and one is here but it really, it cuts over into most of our yard coming down. It's not, this is the current path coming down where everybody, well it's actually a walkway because it's commonly used. I also have a trail going all the way down into the Wegler's property~because people 'take my lawn area so they don'l stop where the boulders are because it's so steep. They follow my yard all the way down this way, right into Mike's back 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 yard. So it's really warn down there too from their use. So it really cuts in more of my yard here. It's not just straight back here. It cuts way into within a couple feet of my four season porch also. Down the back into Mike Wegler's property. Not just this area but the whole side. People are coming down here in the summer. All the way down here and I have a worn path in-between these trees right in the back into Mike's property and xve're going to be cutting into and losing all this lawn all the way to the side and a lot of our front yard. So we can't, ! mean when my husband and I wrote, we feel very strongly about it. Not going through as is because it will devalue our home. We're in an upper bracket neighborhood and we will take a loss on our home and we have... Chuck Chuva: I'm Chuck Chuva and I live at 6521 Fox Path. In this neighborhood. Fox Chase neighborhood. The neighbors who live on Lot 20 and own Lot 18 and 19 do in fact have a beautiful home. I'd say they're gems of the neighborhood. And they've been enjoying relative privacy back there. And they bought their homes or built their homes with the easement existing, as you see it here. I think there are a number of folks here present today that would opt not only for the trail to go through, but also opt for it to curve down as Option A shows to the public area that is along the lake. I understand the privacy issue. The valuation of the home issue. It's understandable. Quite frankly when the other homes in the neighborhood were built we were told as part of our value package, in buying the neighborhood, that there would be someday and thank you for the trail and park referendum, that this is now happening. That there would be value for everyone else in the neighborhood too in the form ora trail down to the lake so we're hopeful that our home values would be enhanced. There's probably 55 homes in that neighborhood and each one would benefit directly from this trail option. Some solutions to the privacy issue may be, and I throw this out. Would be to offer the property owners a screen of sorts. Trees perhaps would enhance the natural beauty of the area. And maybe afford them some privacy that they deserve there. Snowmobiles passing through is an issue. I think you grasp the fact that there is a hill. It peaks here and drops down through here. Snowmobilers are apt to travel this way, up this hill. There is a sight line. A very short sight line at the top of the hill they would encounter. I think it's a safety issue so as far as preventing snowmobilers from going through there, this rock was put, there's a rock here but maybe it's something...more formible could be done in the way ora natural barrier or perhaps signage. I would hope signage to keep snowmobilers from going up and down that path creating a safety hazard. But the strongest I think recommendation for continuing with Option A, going back down to the beach, is a safety issue of this trail entering out onto the streets. There are many young children in the neighborhood who like to go down to the lake. Although probably should have adult supervision. Sometimes they don't and if they're outletted onto the street there, it definitely is a safety issue for them. We'd like to see that trail continue straight down to the beach and go into Carver Park as it's proposed. Carver Beach Park I should say. Also again as another safety issue. You see there's lighting at the cul-de--sac right here. Street light and I think everyone involved would like to see some further street lighting, safety type lighting at the other end of this right here. I don't think it's lit up very well. Mike probably could tell you what kind of lighting is there. But that area does need to be lit up if there's going to be a trail there and we think there should be a trail there. And Option A should be the path~ 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Alex Wagenaar: I'm Alex Wagenaar. 890 Fox Court. I agree really with the previous speaker wholeheartedly° I think there's a number of issues~ They're always difficult and nobody wants a trail that's really close to their house and this obviously, going back in history, whoever built that house and I don't know whether the city approved it or what but if it's too close to the trail, we knew that before that house was built and somebody built that house there and so that's just water over the dam now but it's a problem that we should make sure that we avoid in the future. The trail is very important. We purchased our house and moved in late last year. Just one year ago. We've been there for a year. And whenever I purchase a house I always look at all, what the easements of record and what are the covenants and restrictions on the property. That's all part of what you're buying in a piece of property. And it was clear to me that easement was there. We went down and inspected the easement a couple of times. Looked at the trail. Made sure that we could get through to Lotus Lake from that spot before we purchased that house so it was an important consideration to us and I think it's a very important amenity to the whole neighborhood. All the people around there...when I first came through because you can hardly ride a bike. Kids ride their bikes through there in the summer and all of a sudden you come over this hill and there's a huge rock~ I mean this rock is permanent Right smack dab in front of you. And you have to kind of ease through between the pole and the rock. Now I understand a little better that that existing path is now where the easement exactly is. I would argue in favor of Option A~ The existing plan for the trail, I do think it's important to put it through, It's important to have it be safe and it's important thato.~ And the streets there, if we open it into the street, those streets are like driveways and I don't know what the long term plan is for those streets but there's no sidewalks. It's not like an improved street.. °get over to the park from that point. I think just in a couple, a few of the comments of some of the things that have come up. The fact that there are multiple paths through there now indicates that it's high time that we improve it so we have one improved trail that will avoid this, people going in 3, 4, .5, 6 different directions. There were comments abo-at parking and so forth down there. We walk that quite often. Probably a few times a week at ~east in the summer ir~ the evening and I don't tbiak I've ever noticed anybody parking. That people are coming in and parking in that cul-de--sac to go through there. It may happen once in a while but I've never noticed it~,. They live next to it, They see it more but I walk through there quite frequently and I've never seen that the parking is a real problem. I just would encourage the city to move forward with the improvement and provide the path. And provide it in the safest, and in a way that in the long term it's going to be the most beneficial to the whole neighborhood and the whole area. And I think that would be Option A, the original plan that was..~ Thank you very much. A comment was made that was not picked up on the tape~ Alex Wagenaar: Yeah, I drove around and I walked that path. I did not do a survey of the easement to know exactly where it was and I did not know exactly where it was positioned but I looked on the plat and in the recorded covenant of my property that that easement was there. And we had heard that there plans to improve it~ You know that proverbial one day soon they're going to fix that up, Lash: Thank yom Anyone else from-the audience? 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Loren Veltkamp: I wasn't going to say anything tonight but I'm here so. 1 actually live, I don't live in Fox Chase° I live over in this direction down this way. Quite a few hundred feet down by the beach down there. Berg: Could you state your name for the record please. Loren Veltkamp: Oh, it's Loren Veltkamp. I'm at 6724 Lotus Trail. Which is where this arrow comes out on Lotus Trail here. My wife and I have lived there for about 5 years and we've used this trail actually to get to Christmas Lake, which is totally backwards but when you live on a lake you've got to go the other direction you know. So we've been walking our dog through there and I've taken a snowmobile through there a few times too. But first thing I wanted to say is that the trail is totally accessible the way it is. You know I've never had any trouble using it. And the people that it borders on here, Hedlunds and Kreisler, you know they are the nicest people you could ever meet and their houses are beautiful. And I would, you know 1 do use the trail but I would almost hate to see that area developed in any way because to put a bituminous path through there I think would kind of just, it wrecks the scenic beauty of the area and I think it would wreck their houses too. I would like the Board to consider that. All you would really, well actually you don't need any trails through there right now because everybody's using them. Unless there's a safety issue but the kids are going to go through there on their bikes anyway and they do and we walk through there all the time. And everybody knows that there's an easement there so you know they feel free to do it and they know where it is so I don't really see the need for any big development there. If you do want to develop it, I'd go very minimally and maybe just a little 3 foot wide stone path, you know which is more than I can see that you need right now. And then maybejust a l%ot and a half on each person's property because you know what do you really have there? You have kids riding bikes and you have people walking their dogs andjoggers and beautiful scenic area and also it's getting nicer and nicer in there because all the people that border this area here have been putting, doing a lot of landscaping and stuff so it just gets better and better every year. The way they're fixing it up and they have little pine trees in there and everything and you know a straight bituminous path, does it follow the straight line like that too? I mean is it like straight like it shows on the drawing? That would be really huge I think. I think it'd be, well even a 6 foot wide trail. I don't know. I use the trail, i would be happy with it just the way it is, you know. It's fine. You know we've never had any trouble walking it. You know these people are real nice. And if you want to develop it maybe a 3 foot wide little stone path or something. You know would be fine for me. Lash: Any other audience members wishing to address the commission? Marie Schroeder: Marie Schroeder and I live at 6600 Lotus Trail. And my property is right here, which I wasn't included as far as lots drawn out which upset me when I got this. I was always aware of the easement when I moved in there. People use it now. Lots of children fish in my front yard and we do a lot of clean-up after them. A lot of them using my bathroom. Which I have not opposed to or complained about or anything. 1 have pretty much maintained the trail as far as mowing it. Cutting back trees. I have done that myself. There are some spruce trees along here that are age& 'There are some other larger maple trees and when I talked to Todd he said those were going to be cut down and I really oppose that. To cut down trees to put in a path that 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 is useable right now. I'm very sick so I'm having a hard time talking here. I think the trail should be left just the way it is. It is very, very steep right in here. I can't imagine anybody walking a baby with a baby stroller down there. Roller blading. That can be very dangerous. Even tiding a bike down this path for a child. And coming this way it's the same thing here. The kids have come over there and they have fallen offoftheir bikes and gotten hurt but I don't know. I don't know what the solution is but I do own all of this along here and I think it should be left just the way it is~ Hoffman: ...down below the hill? Marie Schroeder: Yeah, and then I have a lot of spruce. Some aged spruce trees. They're further, they're down by the lake. Down in this area. Right along in here. And then I have two large maples in my yard, or that are lining my property. Lash: They'd have to come out because they're too close or they would be damaged during construction or? Hoffman: No. To clarify my statement~ If the trees are in the way, we only have l 0 feet there and obviously you would be on that side of the 10 feet to stay away from the trees, But if they're in the way, they'd have to be cut down to manage the trail. Or maintain the trail in a permanent location. Right now where people walking are inside, outside the easement so it's legal, you're going to stay within that easement and trees are there, they would have to be removed. But obviously we're not going to do that unless need be. Marie Schroeder: ...talked to yt~u Todd you said that it would, if we went with this plau here, that those trees would have to come out. Hoffman: Well ~ think we wete talking about the trees down below this hill, Marie Schroeder: Right, Hoffman: Yeah, and if they're in the easement, this photo doesn't show if they're in the easement or not~ But if they're in the easement. Marie Schroeder: Well maybe we should get some pictures of those trees because there's a sumac down there. There's a maple. There's a balsam. Hoffman: Yeah, there's a tree that the snowmobile trail runs right into~.~ Marie Schroeder: But they're older trees and they're beautiful trees. Hoffman: There's not enough room there. You'd have to grade that entire lot out to make that, just go down over the edgeo That's all you can do. Someone from the audience made a comment. 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: If the trees are in the easement, and the trail has to go in the easement, obviously the tree's in the way. And some, what we're hearing, as far as having an aggregate or wood chip or anything like that trail, when you've got any kind of a grade going on, we've tried it in other places. Over up by the other beach. You know the bigger beach or the main beach, or whatever one you call it. And you just end up with washout every year and you have such a mess and it's so high maintenance and everything washes all over it, it just doesn't work. Hoffman: Basically they're grass or bituminous. Leave it as is. Flag stones really lend itself it tripping points and maintenance is going to be even. Lash: It's not like putting a little walkway from you know your back porch or back to your garden. It's a lot, it's high usage and it's long. Hoffman: ...down that hill. Lash: Yeah, you know I have to remind you. You have to come up to the podium because you don't get picked up back there and then our minutes are really incomplete because we can't hear the question. All we hear is you know. Tom Ebenreiter: Sorry. Lash: That's okay~ Tom Ebenreiter: I'm Tom Ebenreiter. I live at 635 Fox Path and I just, I'm wondering if', it seems like that's...and I was never aware you could even walk along the part of it's, this part of it right here. Is that, you've kind of mowed that, back above the garden thing. An audience member made a comment that was not picked up on the tape~ Tom Ebenreiter: It seems like it's someone's yard so I've always kind of stayed away from it. So either you've got to really develop this thing and cut some stuff out or leave it as it is pretty much. Because this right here is pretty eroded the way it is. That's got, and it's pretty, it's hard to ride a bike on there without breaking your neck or your bike. So mainly l'm just curious about what kind of development and how much more usage this would involve. Has anybody taken a look at how many more people possibly will be cruising through there and if it's going to be, are there going to be snowmobiles going down Fox Path eventually? I mean what, I'm just curious as to what the overall affect is going to be beyond just saying it would be nice to have lake access, which I think everybody agrees on. I'm curious about what the overall long term affect is as it becomes more popular. Lash: I don't know that we can predict how many people will now start using it. I mean it's used now. To me I look at it and I think it's used now. A lot of people use it. A lot of people want it. Right now no one's quite sure where to go and so you know for Lot 20, they have kind of people going all over everywhere because they don't know where to go. Where this will be 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 defined and people will know this is the path. This is where ! go. If I'm off the path I'm in somebody's yard and it's clear. Now there may be some people who will see it now who had no idea before that they could use it~ There may be a few in the neighborhood who will pick up on that. As far as people coming from all over, you know the west suburban area to come and use that trail probably is not going to happen you know but you may pick up a few more people. Tom Ebenreiter: Did I hear right that the proposal compromises to do this? Leave it where it is on your property but then forget this as a result of doing that? Lash: I think there's two plans, options right now. That doesn't mean that we are completely restricted to only opting for A or B or nothing. I think as a commission once we get all the comments from you, we're going to open it up and kick around some ideas and direct staff with some solutions to what could be. Tom Ebenreiter: So leaving it as it is not one of the two options that was proposed tonight, is that correct? Because it infringes on your land, right? Hoffman: Right, and then in the future as Lot 19 is developed, that's going to change the way people feel about cutting through there as well Also one thing we should clarify, that these pedestrian trails are not motorized Snowmobiles, motorbikes are not allowed on them. Tom Ebenreiter: And could it be set tip so that you can truly keep that from happening? Hoffinan: In what fashion? Tom Ebenreiter: ! don't know Hoffman: No, we carmot Lash: Neighborhood watch groups Tom Ebenreiter: No I mean you can't put up pylons or something in a way that would actually keep people from. Hoffman: The rocks that are utilized there now are for that purpose and we do that in some other areas but it's. Lash: And if is was defined, it will keep people from going all over. Tom Ebenreiter: So you're saying that you can't really keep it as, this part as it is right now because it is on their property and if it is developed, that causes a problem correct? Audience: Where we walk now we're not legally allowed to walk there~ As I understand it. Lash: Correct. 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Kelli Komru: Kelli Komru, 890 Fox Court. This option on the other side, I thought we had talked about, if we went with this option we would be helping this property owner by not going down here and so that we were thinking about moving this over into this lot a little bit more. Isn't that what. Hoffman: ... Kelli Komru: Right. And so that's an option that would make these people maybe a little happier. Make these people a little happier. Make this person happier and we still have access to the lake. I don't have small children so ! didn't think about having to go out onto the road but these roads are not heavily traveled. Audience: o..property owners all the way around happy or is that compromise one that they all want? Hoffman: Not the Wegler's. There's a letter. Yeah, no the lot down here. There's a letter that, some correspondence that came in and the commission has a copy of all these... The top one is from the Weglcr's who live here and their preference is to continue with Option A. Lash: Okay, anybody else from the audience wishing to'? Sure. Ann Miller: Well I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't like trees but I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Ann Miller. So I guess I see pros and cons for both sides, as probably most people here do. But for proposal Option A, I mean originally we all, those of us who purchased homes in the area didn't, most of us anyway, didn't think that we had easements to the lake where it is shown in Option A. Hoxvever, now that time has passed, etc., it would be a shame in choosing Option A. If we had to take down trees and that sort of thing. I really do believe thaL And as far as traffic goes for small children, the people in Fox Chase have to remember that there is not a sidewalk anyxvhere in Fox Chase development. The kids are in the street all the time. Constantly. In fact our street traffic in the Fox Chase division is nmch worse than it is over on the other side where the path would come tlzrough so I can't see that being a real issue. And if it would, I like your idea then of making the trail shorter there but I would still like to see it maybe just maintained by the city but not really developed. I still don't see why it would need to be a bituminous path. Lash: Okay. Other residents? Chuck Nagel: l'm Chuck Nagel. I live at 6340 Fox Path and I was just wondering, we haven't heard much from the Hedlund's. I think that's, ! haven't met you but I was, you're the Hedlund's? I think several people have pointed out that probably the Option B makes more people happy for the least evils here. I'm a user so, and I'm not affected by the trail itself but my impression is that, xvhen it is bad, when it's wet and slippery, that in both cases you're going to have some problems with grade. I think do we know, is the grade, I haven't used the Option A grade. My guess 'is Ih'at ifs worse. Is it possible to do any grade improvement with Option B? 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Hoffman: Very little~ Chuck Nagel: You can't take the crest offthe hill a little bit there? Hoffman: Yeah, on the very top you can take that crest out but overall you're still going to have grades going dowm But you could take that first bump off... Chuck Nagel: I like the idea ofwoodchips and whatever and I agree with Jan that it's very difficult to keep it in place during a downpour. I think you need to do something on the surface though because I've seen people picking their way down and you know a lot of people go down on three points and I think it's slippery and maybe not even used in bad weather because of that so I guess I would support improving the surface in your judgment and support the Option B. I think it is a good compromise. I met Barbara this afternoon. We were looking and it is, I would be unhappy to have that many, I'm comfortable walking through somebody's yard anyway. You are literally in her back yard. So I think the moving it into Lot 19 is probably the best compromise in my mind. I don't know why the people in the right hand corner, ! didn't read the letter or haven't seen it. Why did they oppose that? Hoffman: Just states that,, Chuck Nagel: Are they here? Hoffnmn: No, Mike was here and he left. Lash: I suppose what it would, I meari t"m just guessing but I would imagine their thooght is that people coming down the trail will be coming right out in front of their house. Chuck Nagel: But the trai;~, doesn't it empty into Mrs. Schroeder's drJ. veway? .! meao~ the rock is literally at the end of your driveway, isn't it? Hoffman: Where the two driveways corne together. Chuck Nagel: So I mean you've got the same problem that they do so I guess, and I agree that kids that are going down there. I don't think that the traffic isn't that big a problem. Like you say, I live at the outlet of Fox Path and you guys buy too much furniture. There's trucks coming in and out of there. Delivery trucks by the dozen coming in and out of there. So I would vote for Option B I guess. With some trail improvements of some kind. Lash: Anyone else in the audience wishing to address the commission? I'm curious about the Hedlund's too. You guys don't have anything you want to share? Barb Hedlund: I guess my,~ .is we're in the process of talking to a builder and building another house...best thing for the community but we don't know. We don't know what our driveway's going to have to... 30 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: Would the home be for you or? Okay. Barb Hedlund: You know we're just in the very beginning stages... I mean we've been very, we met... Lash: Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to comment? ...Okay. Then if there are no further comments. Audience comment. Chuck Chuva: One thing no one seems to mention is cost. Obviously B, i think obviously B would be the least cost so even though I vote for Option A, I see that B would be the least costly so. But the other thing is, what is the time frame on this being installed? Hoffman: We don't have a set time frame. Obviously we want, the time frame is based upon resolving the issue .... Chuck Chuva: Approval or, okay. Hoffman: And then we'll move on from there. Chuck Chuva: Likely if it's approved xvithin the next month or two, would it be done in the spring or summer? Hoffman: It'd be during, if it's approved this spring we'll do it during the summer construction. Lash: Are you changing your vote to B? Chuck Chuva: No, I still for opt for A. Hoffman: Just a clarification. That is Option B. Ann Miller: I had one more comment. Alex Wagenaar: Alex Wagenaar. Yeah, I mean I think where the sense of most of us, we want to have that trail there and you know I think I voted for Option A too but it's not like it's you know go to the mat on Option A kind of thing. It's we want to be able to use the trail. We want to build it and we want to do it the most reasonable way that accomplishes that task. Ann Miller: Ann Miller. The only thing about Option B would be that then it might look to people who are not living in the neighborhood, like motorized traffic could go through there because you're connecting a cul-de-sac to a road. So ! guess I would like signs. Something posted. Little round ones with slashes through that no motorized vehicles or something so that those people would know they could not use motorized vehicles on that short path through there because that's the only other thing. The other thing is, considering the path systems in 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Chanhassen, where does this path really hook up to as far as you've gone fi'om Carver Beach Park and then the park system after you've gone through the Fox Chase neighborhood, where would it hook up to for the future? I mean we wouldn't have to worry if we chose Plan B, but at some point in time Chanhassen would decide to change this neighborhood. Hoffman: The only function of this is a connector... It's a connector down to the lake and then there's the trail around the two parks and then there's a trail farther up that connects the other end of Carver Beach with Butte Court. These are simply connectors so you can find your way. It is not intended, it's not mapped. There's no comprehensive plan to build a trail. Ann Miller: Okay, thank you. Lash: Other resident comments. Barbara Kreisler: Barbara Kreisler, Lot 20o One of the things I had mentioned to Todd is I mean people use it now and he said that there were people that aren't aware that it's there. Wouldn't it be cheaper just to put up a sign and there are paths all around Carver Beach and they aren't paved. That take you from the little beach to the big beach and they're used all the time and they're not paved. I mean couldn't there be something small in a sign. And snowmobilers and motor, they're still going to use it whether there's sign or not and I see that. A sign isn't going to do any good. People will still. I am in favor ora path. Does it have to be paved.'? It's not paved anywhere along Carver and people use it all the timeo Lash: That's the one that washes out all the time~ Barbara Kreisler: Yeah, bm j~st to put a sig~ up letting them know that they have: And ifwe can come to an agreement o~q where, I just don't want my, a lot of my yard gor~e. You know people do take my yard and they take Barb's property and walk it but to take a large section and put asphalt, you know I just, leave it as is, Designate a smaller area and put a sign in. It'd be a lot cheaper. Kelli Komru: Kelli Komru. The way it is right now is very difficult to bike over° I mean it's just holes and bumpy and up and down and that's why it would be nice to have the improved path. Loren Veltkamp: One more time~ Loren Veltkamp. I live on Lotus Trail by the mini beach there and there's that path that does connect the big beach with the little beach and that path is about 3 feet wide and it's unimproved and it's just flat you know dirt. And we've been living there for 5 years. That path has never washed out. It runs right along side the lake and everybody uses it. There's kids biking on it and we have everything but Roller blades on this thing and we walk it every day with the dog .... work~ You know they work for everybody and ! don't see why we can't have more have more of themo You know I don't like the idea of going to paving in our neighborhood. You know the less tar and concrete we have, you know the prettier it is, so~ 32 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: Okay, thanks. Anyone else from the audience'? Okay, we're going to be closing public comments now. That means it's our turn. So we'll open it up for commissioner comments. Mike, we'll start with you down at your end. Howe: I have a couple. I know many times in my brief tenure on this board we've had people come before us and complain about trails and it's too close to my property. It's going to invade my privacy and we've gone out and looked at them and they're 30, 40, 50 feet down a hill. We know the people. However, I went to see this place tonight and ! have never seen again in my short tenure here a trail that we'd build that would impact people more than this one. I think it's really too close. Mistakes might have been made by the builder. By the town. By the realtor. Perhaps by the buyers but I mean that's done. I do see a need for a trail. Some sort of improvement. I'm glad to see, it seems like compromise seem to be, we're fashioning a compromise here at some point but I would say, it would seem to be Option B that would be the best. We'll still get the trail. It depends on the folks with the undevelopable property but we could eliminate perhaps the run from that or T the trail to the lake. But I think this trail is on top of these people and I have a problem with that. Lash: Dave. Moes: I do see a, I do have a concern actually with the close proximity of the trail, the way it is currently laid out. Hearing a lot of the comments tonight, I actually applaud and there's a lot of good ideas there that we could possibly incorporate into a solution here. l'm not quite sure specifically what would be the appropriate one. I did have a couple thoughts, or concerns actually. I don't know the degree of the concern of you know parking in the cul-de-sac if it is fully developed. That would be I think something that we would want to address~ I did hear a few comments on the motorized vehicle access. That does seem to be a concern. 1 have seen gates in other areas where people have utilized those to some extent to try and I gt~ess prevent that sort of activity going on. So I would I guess now be interested in pursuing something along Option B. However, investigating additional components within that. Lash: Okay. Rod. Franks: Todd, ifI can just direct a question to you. Maybe you can give us some help. In more of an unimproved trail, some of the grass mowed trails that we've had, considering the terrain that we're dealing with here, along the line of the Option A path. Concerning both of the two segments. What is the viability of having that type of unimproved surface trail? Just a mowed trail. Grass trail. Hoffman: Sure. It all depends on the volume of foot traffic. And so we identify a 3 or a 5 or a 6 foot wide area, grass trail traversing down the hill. If people walk there in volume during wet times, we're going to lose that turf surface and then we're going to start seeing erosion problems and issues. The trail that Mr. Veltkamp alludes to, it couldn't grow grass because of the over, you know the tree story canopy there but it's just dirt. It's dirt and there are some erosion areas where gullies cut across and that's certainly an option that the commission can take a look at. We have very few of those in our system. 33 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Franks: That was my next question. Hoffman: Yeah, they're very informal. Just neighborhood connectors and there's no perfect answer. But if we identify a single corridor and people use it, especially as you go down that hill, it will be prone to erosion and turf damage. Franks: I'm feeling some sense that some kind of definitive decision needs to be made about where this trail's going to go. You know, it needs to be marked. People need to know where it's going to be. They need to know that it's something that is available for them there to use. I'm sympathetic with the Hedlund's looking to develop their property and not having any idea where that's going to be and where people are going to be walking, whether along, and what sides. There may be two sides of their property and where's that going to be so I would really like to see us as a commission really make some decision here in a reasonably timely fashion, I had originally, I came into this meeting with a strong feeling towards Option B. The one question 1 had, which is one that you brought up was moving with an easement 15 or so into your property. Will that give you enough room to create a driveway? That's the one piece of the property I didn't look at as far as the grade or where a driveway would go if you put a house in. So I can understand you're wanting a little time to work with the builder, developer to see what kind of ,viable options that you have. Yet at the same time I can also consider that the easement was there. It was on the books. 18.4 feet from the line to the house. We'd be looking at developing approximately a 6 foot trail. Would that trail start right on the line? Todd, is that what we're considering? Hoffman: Close to the line, You'd want to be about a foot off there to allow foL Franks: So we're looking about coming m from the line, edge of trail abont 6 fbe'i am~ the city then is responsible, or has the leeway to upkeep the trail another, if the horneowner wanted to put up a fence, how much farther from the trail then would they need to be? Hoffman: That depends. They could go up to about 3 feet from it, as long as we would grant them an encroachment agreement. You need that free space. Franks: So about 3 feet from the edge of the trail. Hoffman: Correct. Franks: So we're looking at the best case scenario 10 feet, which is going to leave about 8, 8 ½ feet or so. My concern is that without developing along with Option A, people are going to continue to use and go down that lot line down to the lake. They're just going to continue to do it. I was surprised to hear some of the comments, that some of the residents are okay with that. That surprised me a little bit. Then if that property's going to be developed, if you do build there and we don't have anything permanent or no decision is made, it's just going to be that much harder to make fhat decision at some point in the future. So those are the things that I'm considering right now so that's it for me. Thanks~ 34 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: Well as everybody's pretty much said it. I agree that the residents of Lot 20, this would not be a livable situation for them. And unfortunately you know you're the one stuck with it. It's obviously it's been a long list of errors. I just can't imagine how with people knowing that easement was there that they built a house that close. And I agree with one of the residents who said well you know' it's water over the dam now but it needs to be looked at as something we wouldn't want to see happen again. I was kind of wondering if it would be possible for staff to possibly meet with Hedlund's before we make a decision and just see if we can do some kind of discussions on either, a little back scratching so when they do come to develop, you know they would be waived a trail fee or they would be some kind of thing like that. If we were able to get a little more space along there to fudge some of this over into their area if we chose to go with A. Or would it be possible to have the trail begin at the easement where it is now but then angle slightly east so it would be then into Hedlund's property. But wouldn't put any kind of path on where they would want to put a driveway in the future. Because they'd still have the same frontage across the street. I agree with Rod that 1 think that people will continue to use that easement connector down to the lake, but maybe a good compromise is to go with B and people who are on bikes and strollers and wagons and stuff can always use the street if they need a smooth surface and people who are walking or don't need a smooth surface would know, you know if Mr. Schroeder mows it and people know that they can use the east connector down there, and they're okay with that, they could do that. I mean it'd be a compromise both ways. But I, you know I will agree with all the other commissioners that to put it in Option A along, in that close to Lot 20 is just not doable in my mind at all. So l'd actually like to see us just investigate it a little bit more before we make a decision and possibly come up with a few other options. Fred. Berg: Yeah, I've got a couple things. Maybe address some of the other issues that were brought up too. I won't kick the dead horse anymore about how close it is on Lot 20. When I was out there I felt guilty like 1 was trespassing i was so close to the house. I went on Lot ! 9 just because I wasn't sure that I was supposed to be that close to the home. So I can certainly sympathize with that. I think we'd all like to have the developer here right now. Maybe express our concern. Yeah, whomever. Yeah. Couple things were mentioned that I'd like to just comment on. At the elbow of the trail, whether it be at, in Plan A or B, I definitely would not be in favor of putting a light there. I think that that would be, that would really be intrusive for the neighborhood and might not be something that anybody would really need. I had a question, how far is it Todd from, in terms of blocks, if we take Option B and go down the hill. If you go Mohawk to Napa, how far is it to the lake from Napa? Are we talking just another block or so? Hoffman: Yeah. Berg: So it's really close? Hoffman: Yep. Just a rectangle so you take one, the exact opposite measurement. 35 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Berg: Okay, so if you put some signage up that Children in the Neighborhood. Drive Slowly, whatever. Just to make people aware of the fact that there may be more traffic. If we were to go with Option B, that would be a possibility? Signage. Hoffman: Possibility, yes~ Signage requires. Berg: I know it's not our. Hoffman: Yep. Regular, specific warrants and I'm not sure that we would meet the warrants for that type of signage so I'm not going to make that promise. Berg: Okay. And as far as whether it be bituminous or left as it is, I would much rather leave it the way it is but it sounds like this is not like other trails. That it is in fact washing away. And if there are holes and potholes as a couple people are saying, I guess I would be in favor of making it a bituminous trail. We have done those in other areas and without really destroying the natural beauty. In many ways enhancing it because we've been able to get so many more people into it to appreciate it. I think a bituminous opens it up to some people who may otherwise not be able to use it if we leave it as it is~ I'm torn on that one to be perfectly honest with you. I think we also have to listen to the fact that there are significant numbers of people in the neighborhood who moved in with the expectation that there would be a trail connector there and I think we have to honor that too. 1 think we have that obligation. I look at B as being a good compromise, but I also feel very strongly that some sort of permanent connector has to be there. I can certainly understand the plight of, or not the plight. The uncertain situation of the owners of Lot 19. Is there any way to make the trail at the top of the property more narrow and then widen it as it goes down, further down the hill'? So that it's not as intrusive near the home but it widens as we get further down. So it still provides access for strollers and bikes and whatever, bu~ it doesn't necessarily have to be the 6 feet or whatever width we're talking about. Mo:ce p~:',-,~c.,w at the top, you know what I'm saying? And then wider~s out as we move down° Hoffman: Yeah. Something that the park industry does not advocate to the fact that once you get a user on there, at one end they're accustomed to a certain spacing and they align either their bikes or their users and if they come to the other area where it starts to narrow down, you don't customarily see that occurring. So if you're going to pick a width, pick 4 feet or 5 feet or 6 feet and just keep it standard so people know what to expect as they're going up or down hillo Berg: Okay. That's all I have. Lash: Okay. Ron~ Roeser: Well I guess I would really lean towards Plan A too. I think part of the charm of that trail is you go down the hill and walk to the lake~ But by going with Plan B you're just taking everything out of what's nice about that trail and just going straight down a hill onto a road and I think that takes a lot away from it It won't be as pleasant to walk by any means or as pleasant to ride to the beach. 'I think we have to discuss with the Hedlund's though, If we're coming that close to that house, that's really kind of frighteningo I know I wouldn't want a trail that close and 36 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 I'm crazy about trails. If we can put this off for a while and discuss it with them, I think that probably would be the best idea. But blacktopping it seems to me to make the only, is the only sensible thing to do with it. You can't put woodchips, not on that kind of hill. That's all. Lash: Okay. Anyone else? Anything you'd like to add? Franks: Well in the neighborhood that I live in Chanhassen there is kind of a similar situation. At the end ora cul-de-sac there's a trail head connector and it goes right in-between two houses and I doubt that it's more than 6 or 7 feet to each house on either side. l've not heard of that being a problem but I also have to admit I'm not one of the homeowners. I do have to say that I'm not swayed by the argument of property value and resale. The argument Barbara that you're giving that strikes me is the privacy issue which I think is real. But if we're going to go basically or solely on the affect of your property value, I'd be more inclined to put it through as...even knowing that this was there. It was there for you to see and you decided to buy property and go ahead xvith it. But I think we do need to be sensitive to those privacy issues where we can. Lash: Anyone else? Okay. Given our indecisiveness at this point, who thinks they'd like to make a motion? And able to do that. Roeser: I would table this discussion until, should we go to next meeting or'? Berg: Well, are we willing to table it for a year? I mean it sounds like we might noxv know for a year. Are we being responsible by tabling? Franks: I'm uncomfortable with that I think a little bit. That just seems like we're pushing it out a little bit too long. What I'm wondering is, I think tabling is a good idea but to use that time to really gather some more information. I just don't want to drag this out imtefinitely because then xve're going to be the same position~ Howe: Well the key to the compromise is building on the other lot. He has to figure what's going on there. Franks: And if there's some initial surveying that could be done to see what types of trees. How many are going to have to be removed. Lash: I would think, ifI were the Hedlund's, which I'm not. But ifI were to build on this lot and just say Option A were to be the one that we voted to go with, I think it would be personally more amenable to me to have the trail be going a little like this and saving some trees that maybe would have to be goners and if that meant it came a foot onto my property line, I would rather save the tree and do that than to have nice trees back there in the easement have to be cut down. So you know that's the kind of stuffI think that needs to be discussed in a more informal situation with Todd° You guys can look at the lot lines. Look at all different possibilities and what you think, if you're going to build there, what you could live with. What you would like to see happen. And you know preserve the frontage so you wouldn't have to worry dr>out problems with driveways and those kinds of things that you really can't go back and renegotiate later on. 37 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 So I'd just like to get more information that you can guys can work out. Things you absolutely could not live with or things that you would be willing to live with as sort of trade-offs for things that we could offer you. So I'd like to get, that's why I would like to table. I'm not really too interested in tabling it for a year or whatever until. Roeser: Can we table it indefinitely. Lash: Well I think until we get the information. Until they've had an opportunity to really meet and discuss some of the different things and look into everything. And if that means it doesn't go in this summer, that wouldn't° You know people have lived without it for years and years. It wouldn't bother me too much if we went one more summer without ito Roeser: It probably and would never have come up until someone mentioned it, right? Hoffman: Correct. Roeser: Or was it on your schedule? Hoffrnan: Il wasn"t on my schedule. I knew about it but Roeser: No...sorneone reminded us that it was, yeah. Lash: ...you know everybody's lived and has been using it. I guess I would just suggest that people try to be a little more refined in how you use it if it's not paved yet this summer so that people aren't all over everybody else's yard, So given thal we need a motion t,,i~ tab/e~ Okay, can we do that? Howe: I'll move. Roeser: I'll second that. Howe moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on a pedestrian trail connection at Fox Chase/Carver Beach for further investigation. All voted in favor, except for two commissioners who opposed. The motion carried with a vote of 4 to2. Lash: And you will be notified when this is back on the agenda. The Park and Recreation Commission took a short break at this point. Lash: Okay, we'll reconvene now and Mayor Mancino wishes to address the commissiono Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much. It's past my bedtime, You guys go really late as a commission. The City Council doesn't go this late and we don't have all this commotion going on. We're pretty quiet right now so. Why I stopped by tonight is that the, later this week and let 38 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 me hand this out. The city will be mailing to all the residents and businesses the 1999 Strategic Plan and so I thought I'd introduce it to you. You will be getting it probably the beginning of next week. Let me keep one copy...I'll give you a minute to look at it and give it to staff. We're pretty excited about it to actually get it printed and to get it out there. Why don't 1 give you a minute just to read the letter. Look it over a minute. To give you a little bit of background. Context for the strategic plan. In 1996 when I was on the Planning Commission...Chaska, etc. around us had strategic plans that they... (Mayor Mancino was not speaking into a microphone so her comments were not picked up on tape.) Berg: Nancy, under quality amenities, the action steps, The second one, develop implementation plans. Is that, you would envision that as where we would talk about maintaining the parks we already have? Adding things to those existing parks, etc.? Mayor Mancino: Yes, it could be. And again that's what we're going to... Berg: Because it seems like that's a real important step because this council obviously isn't always going to be here. And for thc future people to know~ Mayor Mancino: And hopefully this plan will be looked at every year... Roeser: Are you going to have some kind of public hearings on this thing or discussions about it or are you just depending on people to give you their ideas? Mayor Mancino: Well one of the things under community involvement ~s going to be talking about how we are going to get that feedback Roeser: Nice brochure. Franks: ...In the letter it says Chanhassen has grown to a city of remarkable diversity. I'm wondering what kind of diversity we're talking abouL Mayor Mancino: How we've grown? Franks: Into a city of remarkable diversity. It seems like a pretty homogenous kind ofcityo But I work in downtown Minneapolis but when I come here I think this is about as homogenous as. Roeser: Yeah, diversity might not be the best, Franks: ...as any city can get. Mayor Mancino: Well o.. Franks: We have upper bracket homes and less upper bracket homes, 39 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Mayor Mancino: We have a lot more..o Franks: I'm just wondering. There might be a lot of people who are going to read remarkable diversity and. Lash: So you're not really saying cultural diversity. Mayor Mancino: Or ethnic diversity. Lash: Right. That's not your. Mayor Mancino: I mean diversity of... Lash: It used to be all farmers. Roeser: We've got one farmer, Legler's? Hoffman: Degler's. Roeser: Degler's, yeah, Franks: When you're talking about a customer service approach serving Chanhassen, I'm assuming that will pertain to us too° So whem..work with as a body to determine what that customer approach will be oJ.' will there be some more like mission statement ideals that we're to go along and follow that we'~i receive from the council or? Mayor Mancino:... Franks: And to review cost benefits of city services° We're involved in providing a lot of city services... Is there going to be some, I'm assuming that we're going to have to make some cost benefit analysis here as a body so we can provide the council with accurate recommendations of what we believe...about how to go about doing it° Mayor Mancino:... Franks: ...do like work sessions or joint sessions between council and commissions to kind of get these things out on the table or to feel them out or to learn what they are or is there some method... Roeser: So we're all in the same pageo Lash: Same page. Franks: I don't want to have that happen again. 40 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Mayor Mancino: I think what the council... Berg: Yeah, define some parameters as to what exactly the relationship is so we don't have a Coulter Boulevard again. You know what our input is going to be and what we can expect in terms of how our input is going to be listened to. Mayor Mancino: Probably... Berg: Okay. I would agree. I would agree. Franks: I'd like to nominate Todd for a key contributor award in the recognized efforts of committee... So when the nomination forms come out, make sure you send me one. Mayor Mancino:... AN AMENDMENT TO THE CITY CODE; SECTION 20-913(O)~ LIGHTING TO REGULATE THE HEIGHT~ SPACING AND TYPE OF LIGHT FIXTURES. Cynthia Kirchoff presented the staff report on this item and asked for feedback from the commission. Lash: For the ones over at Lake Ann, we're saying the ones over there would they meet this or they would not meet this? Hoffman: They'd meet the height standards. Lash: Yeah, but not the 90, what was dae other part of it'? Kirchoff: The 90 degree shielding. Lash: Yeah. Hoffrnan: Yeah, no. Lash: Well we wouldn't have to replace the lights at Lake Ann? Kirchoff: No. Howe: The lights at Bandimere are going to. Roeser: What about Bandimere then.'? Hoffman: Yeah, we can meet this~ 41 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: Oh, and we provide° Franks: 65 f~et will be okay for what we're going to be doing at Bandimere? Hoffman: You bet° Lash: And 90, okay. Hoffman: Yep, no problem. Franks: What's the height at Lake Susan? Roeser: There aren't any park lights~ Hoffman: The Rec Center. And those are shorter than that. Roeser: Yeah, they're not 65 feet. Lash: Okay, So these won'T impact us really? Hoffman: No. Lash: We can do everything, light everything the way we need and it's no problem~ Hoffman: Yeah~ A consultant would be retained to go ahead arid package the product for any future ballfield lightings that the commission would recommer~d and then we would hand this ordinance over to them which we feel is reasonable I've reviewed it 'with Cb~dv a~d they' would meet it. Lash: Do you need a motion or is this just information? Hoffman: Yepo Need a motion for you to accept it. Lash: Okay. Is there a motion to accept it? Howe: I move we accept the amendment to the lighting ordinance as proposed by staff. Lash: Okay, is there a second? Roeser: Second., Howe moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend approval of the amendment to Section 20-1 Definitions, to include definitions of glare, photometrics and shielded light fixture and Section 20-913. Lighting, to regulate'the 42 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 height, spacing and type of fixtures as included in Attachment 1. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Okay the next one, establish 1999 commission goals. Hoffman: Could we go to 9 for Susan please? Lash: Oh sure. RECREATION CENTER: CHILDCARE REPORT AND MONTHLY REPORT. Marek: I have a report to hand out, how about if I do that right now. Back in August you may remember a particularly lengthy meeting regarding a child care issue out at the rec center. The concern is that we continued to have a large revenue shortfall in that program. In fact the amount orS17,000.00 was cited° The commission at that time gave the approval for the rec center to continue our child care program but try to make changes to make it at least a break even venture. Immediate action was taken in September with a change in some of our procedures and policies and our staffing plan~ And I'd like to call your attention to the top of page 2G That summarizes our revenue situation right now. Please note that the time periods are not consistent in each of those four lines. You can see the loss that we've had over the first three time periods. From when we began in April, '96 through August of '98. That encompasses the first three lines in that table. That total is approximately $17,000.00 and that was the loss that was reported in August. Since we made the changes in September, over the last four months you see that we've come out slightly on the positive side at $591.00. So with a little bit of intensive management we were able to change our situation and make this at least a break even event. It was my obligation to report to you our performance on this and we're pretty pleased about that. There are a few conditions that we would need to follow in continuing our child care program out at the rec center. A staff wage of $8.00 to $10.00 wonld keep us in line with breaking even. We need to have the weekly number of children between 55 and 60° If we fall below 55, xve lose money. If we get above 60, we have too many children for the staff available. So it's a fine balancing act that we have to have to maintain our break even venture. Again, with a little monitoring of the situation I feel that we could do that. At this point I am recommending that we continue the child care program at the rec center. We certainly accept the responsibility for operating at or above break even. It is important that we all recognize the revenue deficits of operations prior to September, 1998 will not be recovered. Roeser: I believe that. Marek: Unfortunately. Lash: This is great Susan. You guys have done a fabulous job...whole situation~ Marek: It was a disaster. Lash: This is just great. 43 Park and Rec Commission Meeting -- January 26, 1999 Franks: The way you've figured out the net gains, oothat you have not added in, the punches that have not been used although you've collected that revenue. Marek: Correct, and I address that in that paragraph right underneath the table. And what I want to say here, it might be easier for me to explain it verbally than work with the works here. We have punch cards that we sell for child care. The punch cards sales occurred in our past child care program as well as in our current child care program. When we went into this period of change at the beginning of September, we carried over unused punches from prior to that. Just as my cut off in December, we're carrying unused punches forward. Now, I know that I'm making an assumption here but basically our child care use hasn't changed a whole lot and I'm assuming that those outstanding punches we had going into it equal the outstanding punches we still have leaving this time period so essentially they wash. Now I know exactly how many unused punches I have right now. And that equals $663~00 worth of service. What I don't have is the number we actually carried over from August~ So I am making that assumption and it's important to realize that. Lash: Even if you didn't carry anything over, it's still pretty close..o Marek: It's still pretty close to break even° Moes: But for clarification, the $663.00 is in the $2,512~00 revenue number. Marek: Yes it is. Moes: Okay. Lash: How do you know tl~ose punches are for child care arid not for somethi~;,g else:'? Marek: It's a separate card that we sell and it's attached to the registration form for each family. Lash: Okay, so it's not the regulars.. Marek: Correct. We do have currently 88 families registered that use our child care program. Lash: I think this is great. I would of course like to continue to get updates...commission needs to give Susan direction on how often we'd like to have an update just to make sure that this is staying viable. Moes: I would like to see it mid year. Six months, right~ I think you've done an excellent job here. Some of the programs that you've instituted, you know if they were this successful we could probably leverage them in other areas as well so that sort of information sharing is very beneficial. Lash: I'd be comfortable with six months. 44 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Marek: Yeah, the change in seasons will be significant for us because we do experience quite a decrease in usage over the summer and we'll have to adjust staff accordingly. Lash: ...June, December or some kind of schedule like that? Marek: Sure. Moes: I think yeah, like results through June~ The first six months, or July or August. Whatever is possible to get the information together I think would be greaL Lash: Well we at least keep control so we don't, it doesn't end up getting so far. If it starts to decline. Marek: And we do have issues that come up. For example we just lost our child care coordinator. She did give notice and so we are recruiting and depending on our ability to find a replacement staff, you know we may have a time period where we're not in operation so those things will come up Lash: Okay, can we move on to item (b) then. Monthly report. Marek: Great. Item (b), the monthly report. This should be pretty short as well. We had a focus on health program out at the rec center. We had booths in the lobby, We had people staffing them. Mr. Franks got some nutrition consultations. Franks: He is a nutritional guru. If you have a chance to talk to lmn. Marek: This lady, Chere Bork, licensed nutritionist, she actually is going to be offering a nutrition programs in our spring newsletter so yeah, I really want to try to continue that relationship with her. We had personal trainers in the lobby. People getting their body fat measured right there in the lobby. It was just real fun. In any case it was a real promotional kind of thing for us and our clients and it was our first try at it and I think it went okay. You may have heard of the medical emergency that we had at the rec center on January 1 Ith. And I just wanted to point out that the rec center staff behaved appropriately. Did everything they could and the emergency proceeded as smoothly as possible under the circumstances. By coincidence that same week we had scheduled recertification in CPR for our staff~ Lash: You already had that scheduled'? Marek: We scheduled it back in early November and the incident occurred on January 11th. A gentleman had a heart attack in the lobby of the rec center. Just sort of slumped over in a chair and was quite um~oticeable until someone did notice that he hadn't been moving for a while and took his pulse and one of our patrons actually was a medical professional and administered CPR while staff called the mnbulance and worked with the other people in the lobby in keeping them back. So yeah, we had CPR training on January 12th and the 16th. Other than that, our programs 45 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 are running fairly smoothly out at the rec center. We don't have any big news there. We do have some new programs coming up in spring. Those of you who are interested in a real kick into the summer season, We're going to be offering a 6 week boot camp class. Out of the warming house. This is a 6 week intensive fitness program. Anyway, I think Todd has talked with me about having one of the goals out at the rec center be better utilization of that building that we have out there and this would be one opportunity to get another use for that building. A mostly outdoor activity with a small amount of shelter needed so that will be our first attempt out there. Lash: Do we use that for Dynamites and stuff in the summer? Hoffman: Yes~ Lash: Okay. Marek: That's it for me, Lash: Okay° Thanks Susan. Marek: I appreciate your deviation from schedule, ESTABLISH 1999 COMMISSION GOALS. Hoffman: Would you like to consider making that a take home assignrnent? Lash: Yeah. Hoffman: Brin?.,, it back at '~he next !;~.eeting, 1999 LAKE ANN BEACH CONTRACT, Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item and asked for questions~ Moes: Just on Exhibit B I was just looking at the differences between like Tonka Bay, Chanhassen, and Excelsior. And like the scheduled life guard hours. Are we just, Lake Ann, I mean when I look at Tonka Bay and if I'm thinking of the right beach, it's by Tonka Bay Marina° I mean is that the one? And they seem to have that staffed rather regularly as well and we just have it more at Lake Ann. Ruegemer: The hours may be different than ours. Is what I'm guessing. Just assuming, Making that assumptiono Hoffman: Number of lifeguards as well. Moes: Pardon'?. 46 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Hoffman: We have the largest beach in the system and they provide the most lifeguards per hour. Lash: Well and they give swim lessons too. Do they give swim lessons there? Hoffman: Yes. Well I think it's separate on the contract. Berg: l'm surprised we're bigger than Excelsior. But I guess we are. Moes: So do we have multiple lifeguards on duty then at Lake Ann? Hoffman: Yes. I unfortunately don't get there often. Like 3 or 4 aren't there'? Oh. Answers that question. Thank you. Oh, we need a motion then, right? Moes: Lash: Moes: Lash: Okay, moving on. Hoffman: Yep, Lash: Berg: Lash: Moes: Okay. Can we get a motion to approve this agreement? So moved. Is there a second'? Second Berg moved, Moes seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the Agreement for Summer Lifeguard Services at Lake Ann Beach for 1999 as provided by Minnetonka Community Education and Services. All voted in favor and the motion carried. RECREATION REPORTS: 1999 FEBRUARY FESTIVAL Ruegemer: Plans are ongoing. We're coming up on that fast, February 6th. i do have the volunteer sign up sheet here~ I have signage for each and every one of you. We can talk individual or everybody can just raise their hah& I can write you down. Roeser: I sure would like to but I have a full day's rehearsal. 47 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Howe: Lash: Howe: 1 want a good costume this time. We don't need to wear costumes for this. Oh that's right... Berg: I can work but I have to leave early so maybe you want to have a different emcee. I can't be there at the end. I have to leave about 2:00 or 2:30. Ruegemer: Okay. Maybe I'll put at fishing ticket sales.. Moes: I've got to watch my kidso I can't. I've got to watch... Ruegemer: Rod Franks, emcee. Franks: Oh man. I'm not even going to tell you why.o. Roeser: He entered another fishing contest~ Franks: Can I get back to you so I can check at home to see what hours I'll be available. Ruegemer: Yep. Franks: Actually we're leaving for a cruise the next day. See I told you, I didn't water to tell you. Berg: Oooh. Does that mean you live m an upper brack, et l~o:me too and ?m property Lash: Back on track here. Ruegemer: ...probably noon fbr you. Lash: Noonish, okay. Ruegemer: Noon for you. Mike, do you want to work? Howe: I'll do something, sure. Ruegemer: Okay. Roeser: IfI can get there, I would come but I'll see... Well we usually start at noon and go til 4:00 on that weekend before the show goes on soo Ruegemer: Okay. If yon'want to help with fishing ticket sales until like 1:30? 48 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Roeser: What? Ruegemer: Would you want to help out with fishing sales or something? Tickets. Roeser: If I can get there. I'm just not sure exactly when. Ruegemer: Oh, okay. I'll put you down as a question mark. Lash: What am I supposed to be doing? Ruegemer: I'm going to have you on the prize board. Lash: Okay, user friendly? Hoffman: No, it's user friendly. Ruegemer: We'll explain it. Emcee's just, 12:30ish. 12:30 lo 3:30. Hoffman: Anybody who's done Eastern Onions can do emceeing... Ruegemer: Basically what it is, it's just announcing general announcements. Franks: So it's 12:30 to 3:30? Ruegemer: Yeah. Franks: Can I give you a call? Ruegemer: Yeah. Berg: He's allowed to do on the ice interviews. Lash: Do you have what you need there Jer? Ruegemer: Yeah. Moes: Do you have like a couple hour slots or one hour slots? Because I've got to figure out, I've got a basketball schedule coming out here too~ Ruegemer: I can, do you want me to put you down for fishing ticket sales. You come at like 11:30, quarter to 12:00 and work for an hour or two. Hoffman: Early or late? You pick it. Moes: Let me get back. I mean I just, but if it's like 11:30 to 1:00 or? 49 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Ruegemer: 12:30 to 1:30 or 1:30 to 3:00 but earlier is the more crucial time~. Moes: ...extended basketball program and I don't have that schedule yet and they play strictly on Saturdays so, coaching for that is what is called a conflict. Ruegemer: Yeah, I'll be in touch with you individually too. Franks: Are kids involved in the ice fishing too? Lash: Sure, yeah. Franks: How do the parents participate with the children if they don't have a fishing license? Do they need to have a fishing license to participate with their kids? Ruegemer: If they're fishing they do,~ Franks: No, but I mean~ Ruegemer: If they're not fishing. Lash: Now wait a minute, Isn't that what the guy from the DNR, that's what he got the big ticket for. Hoffman: He got busted ~br fishmgo He had a fishing pole in his hand, The kid had a fishing pole in his hand... Roeser: Do they check fishing licenses at all'? Hoffman: They come down there and they say hello and they do good will things. Roeser: Yeah, they don't fuss with that. Ruegemer: They're not crappie cops,. There was a tape change at this point in the discussion. PARK & TRAIL MAINTENANCE~ Hoffman: We've made the reports a little bit more comprehensive due to the fact that we're going to change city managers around here~ We've got just a lot of things going on that we want to make sure that people are aware of what we've got going on and so it's purely information. To let you and others know what's going on in those particular areas of the department. 5O Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: Well and I can understand where that would be pretty frustrating if you went out and cleared the trail and then a plow comes down the county road and dumps it all back in there. Hoffman: Happens all the time. Lash: Is there, at some point should we just tell them to quit trying to keep it clear and wait til spring? Hoffman: Well that's what, we get accolades and compliments on many occasions for keeping the trails open through the winter so that's... Roeser: A lot of people use them. They're walking all over the place. Lash: Yeah, but at some point you know we keep walking on them and it's packed down and you can walk on them. Roeser: And they're slippery then too. Franks: Keep that TH 101 trail clear. Hoffman: It hasn't been as clear as some of the others but they'll keeping on it though. Lash: Okay, so we'll move on to administrative. ADMINISTRATIVE: A. SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK BOAT ACCESS GATE HOUSE. Hoffinan: This is a decision that needs to be discussed. The South Lotus Lake gate house still sits there. Last year we did not have a gate attendants within that building or working out of that location. And so as a department in this city xve need to decide what the future of that facility is. And the three obvious ones that came to my mind is dispose of the gate house and the program. Or just ignore it and leave the gate house intact and don't hire attendants for a while. Or leave the gate house intact and continue to hire attendants. Roeser: Wasn't the idea to keep milfoil out of the lake? Hoffman: No. The original idea was the fact that it was a very long and drawn out and very emotional argument about putting in access on the lake. And the agreement at that time was that this thing would be gated and that there would be specific hours. 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.. But then that was proven unconstitutional by the Department of Natural Resources. You can't gate the place. So then the gate went away so we still had attendants there to manage the parking lot. So only, we only supplied this amount of parking and you could manage that and then when they parked illegally, the gate attendant was to call the Carver County Sheriff. We used to staff this thing from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. seven days a week which was really a great investment to be 51 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 made and so through attrition we've gone back and back and back and. The potential hazard here is that those people that are out there that remember this thing, if you officially close out the program it could become very emotional again. Say hey folks, we still remember when this thing went in and the city made the obligation at that time to staff it. That's the reason we brought it back here. We're just not going to pick the gate house up and take it away because it's a public issue that needs some public discussion before we do this. Lash: I'd say go with number 2~ Berg: That's what I think,. Lash: Just leave it there. If problems crop up, we can always, you know... Taking the house out is just going to draw a bunch of attention and irate people so. Moes: How much activity is there with the significant influx ofmilfoil? Ruegemer: The South Lotus Lake is pretty much milfoil infested now. o. B. 1998 COMMISSIONER ATTENDANCE RECORD. C. SCHEDULE OF ATTENDANCE - 1999 CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS. Lash: Now if our attendance is requested, you would contact us, right? Hoffman: Right. Lash: We do not have to go unless we're contacted, ()kay? /3,~ttybody know 'cJgk4 ~:::,v¥ that you have a conflict with any of these? Moes: Wait, can I go back to the City Council meetingo I'm not familiar with that, Lash: Oh. This is the dates that you, if there was a park and rec issue that we needed representation for, that would be your night to be on call. So if you're needed Todd would call you and say you're needed for the meeting. Moes: I do need to make one correction on the work phone on this. It's 837-160T Hoffman: Where'd we get that other one? Moes: That was from the work change mid-J'une. Lash: Okay. And if you look at that we got our terms~ Mike, Ron~ Berg: Mike's up? 52 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Roeser: I didn't even look at that, Hoffman: Yeah, and as soon as I can know the better. Because it's always a real issue on how the council's going to handle it. Lash: Ron, are you re-upping? Roeser: No, I'm not going to re-up. Lash: Mike? Howe: Yes I'll be here. Lash: ! probably will be too. Roeser: I said six years, l'mjust like Paul Wellstone. Six years and that's it. Lash: Term limitation. D. SNOWMOBILE/PEDESTRIAN TRAIL CONFLICTS. Howe: Has it been more aggravated this year? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: We've had more snow this year. Howe: I haven't had as much time., cram it all in the last month but., .lot more incidences. Hoffman: And the new trails° Lash: Well we had hardly any snow last year. Franks: And we're not supposed to have any motorized traffic on those pedestrian trails. Lash: Well just think of the wear and tear on them. Franks: ...until August. Roeser: If they bring those studs back, I think we have to look at snowmobiles again next fall. Lash: They did bring them back. They already approved them. Roeser: Well no, I drm~t think they dido, .voted on. 53 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Franks: The House voted on it and passed it. Roeser: The Senate hasn't passed it yet thought But I don't know if you want studs on that Bluff Creek trail down there. You're going to get grooves. Have you ever seen what it does to them? I mean it's like a ditch in the spring. If you bike those trails~ Franks: Do they have any right like within the easement of the trail to snowmobile along the trail? Hoffman: They have a right to be in the ditch line. But they cross the trails and the proximity to the two and there's just not enough ditch. They have the right to be there, and that's why when I talk to the snowmobile club I say you know, people we've got to be coming up with some compromises here and they're saying you what Todd. Our back's up against the wall. There's no place to compromise. The trail wants to be there. We want to be there. And until somebody tells us no, we're going to be there. And the way to control it with the city is to have ordinances prohibiting snowmobiling in certain areas because they can snowmobile in the county ditches. They can snowmobile in the state ditches. And then they can snowmobile on city streets by ordinance. Roeser: In accessing them, going in and out, right. They can't be going up and down the streets. Hoffman: Accessing the trails, they can go on the streetso Yeah, they can't be riding up and down the street. Lash: Well we haven't,..no motorized vehicles on trails.. That's already there. I think it's a matter of education and enfbrcement~ So how do we do the education? ! think a timely article in the paper now woold certaJr~ly be appropriate Howe: This guy, I think it's probably, as it typically is, it's probably a small group of people who are doing it. And it looks like they really are thumbing their noses at any authority. If you read this guy's story, this is a terrible story. I feel sorry for this guy. And they chased them down and the snowmobile club tried to talk to them and they didn't even care that he talked to them so it's going to be this element who aren't going to listen to you anyway. It's a small group of people. I don't know what you can do. Lash: Well and we have no idea if they're from Chanhassen or where they're from. If they're om along Highway 7, chances are they're going or coming from somewhere off of Minnetonka and you know, they could be coming from out west° Or they could be coming from Shorewood. Who knows where they're coming from. Hoffman: If you take a look, Highway 7 and Powers Boulevard itself, those are both very bad. They're not good situationso You have motorized snowmobiles at 30, 40, 50 mph utilizing the same path that pedestrians are using~ Snowmobile club recognizes it but they're going to continue to sign i't urffil somebody shoves them out of there. And that's our obligation to say yes or no. This is where it starts and then it's up to the city council after that. 54 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Roeser: Did that letter go to the city council'? Hoffinan: That letter is Minutes from the city council meeting. Franks: The one thing we could do is the city can pass ordinances to prohibit snowmobile traffic on particular streets. So we could identify those problem areas like Powers Boulevard and make a recommendation and the city could endorse it. But then they have no way to access those trails. Hoffman: You know you look around, Eden Prairie has no snowmobiling anywhere. Chaska has snowmobiling on one. Roeser: One street through town. Hoffman: One street through town and then you have to get to it and it's just a matter of time. When you take these rural ditch sections, which are just rural ditches and people have been snowmobiling forever. And then now we're plopping trails, pedestrians and they're going, everybody knew we were in trouble. Especially on Highway 7 and Galpin and Powers. Right now they're snowmobiling on the gravel trail on Powers because there's no pedestrians there~ We're not plowiug it and they're utilizing that ditch. Theyjust love it. Next year they'll mosl likely all move to the other side and that's what the people.., feared. They didn't want the trail but now they're going to get the snowmobilers. So at least there they have an option. On Highway 7 they don't want to cross. They all come up out of Chanhassen. They're trying to get west and they don't want to cross but the snowmobile club admitted, if that's the only choice they have is to cross, they'll cross Highway 7. Roeser: Highway 5 was just a zoo last, was it Saturday? I drove to Waconia and back and there was no snow left anymore. They xvere driving through, just going through this mud all along TI-t 5. I mean just huge patches of mud. It looked like they were looking for snow~ You know they have to go through the swamp to get out of the mudo It was unbelievable. Hoffman: That's a heavily used trail~ Roeser: It's too ba& Lash: Okay, do we have an opinion on this issue? What do you want us to do? Hoffman: Well I'm going to be meeting with Todd Gerhardt and Ken Dun: and if you want us to represent a position of the commission, we'll go do that. Otherwise, we'll just continue to flounder. Lash: Well how about some, in the particularly troublesome areas, how about signage? No snowmobiling on pedestrian trails. Hoffman: It's there. 55 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: Is there signage there already? Hoffman: Oh yeahD Roeser: I don't think there's much you can do this year anymore. Hoffman: No, it's not.°. Roeser: I think you've got to let it slide til, yeah. Hoffman: We need to talk about it when you're in the middle of it because otherwise you forget about it and you never talk about it before next year starts again~ Howe: Put it on the June.o~ Berg: And just let him know we're talking about eliminating it altogether. Roeser: I think it's going to happen. Franks: ...but I think it's coming. They're not going to be happy, snowmobilers are not going to be happy to have that access eliminated Roeser: They're staying pretty well on the trail at Lake Ami. They don't seem to be, they're tearing all over it like they used to. You know' you'd always~ see these trails all over the park, It's not happening. Franks: We can't spend the kind of mo~ey, citizen money that we spend on trails and their upkeep and then just have them ruined by studded tracks on snowmobiles and have pedestrian safety endangere& I mean that's just not acceptable= Hoffman: There will be damage on all the trails that 'we just built this year.~o 1999 PARK AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT BUDGET. Hoffman: I wanted to bring that to your attention because there has been some significant changes since it was last discussed and passed on to the city council by the commission. Areas which were originally scheduled to be budgeted improvements, we're talking general terms~ Lake Ann reconstruction, $150,000.00 that we recommended come out of the general fun& They're recommending, in fact they've approved that it come out of the fund 410. And so generally what you, and once the details are printed I'll bring it to you. What you're generally seeing is all of those issues that at least philosophically we attempted to argue are maintenance items, they took those out of any general fund budget and put them into Fund 410. And so reconstruction of Lake .Ann Road, irrigation timing mechanisms, even fertilizer for Bandimere Park for this year. You have soccer goals~ A variety of things they've taken out ofthere~ Either 56 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 deleted altogether or put into Fund 410. And so generally what we're doing is we're spending down 410 again and ! argued my points against that but the council again did approve those expenditures out of 410 so if we move forward with those projects, 410 is taking a hit of approximately $200,000.00 that it would not when you last saw the budget leave your direction. Lash: So they can just do this without you know checking back with us? Hoffman: At their discretion, sure. Lash: So our park and trail acquisition and development fund should now be called acquisition, development and maintenance. Berg: Does this come under cost effective quality services or quality amenities I wonder. Hoffman: I'm not sure. Berg: This is a great strategic plan. Lash: This is an item tbr our joint meeting~ Hoffman: Yep. Lash: This is the first item. Because we purposely, purposefully made our budget with a philosophy in mind that we were going to be trying to not take on any big ticket items and bank roll the money so that we could do some of these other bigger things and they have just now taken every cent away from us basically that we wanted to try and do to save° You know we figured we were saving money with the referendum so we could tackle some of those other things and they just took it away. Hoffinan: You'll also notice changes in the reserve. The reserve for Lake Ann Park expansion was deleted and City Center playground equipment was deleted. Lash: Why do we bother making a budget? Ho£fman: The recommendation from the park commission. Your joint meeting will most likely be in March. Lash: Well why don't we just ask them to give us the budget next time and we'll try to work around it. Berg: And maybe the Mayor can explain what an emily is. Is it something that happens every month or is it something that happens just once? Lash: And maybe they can explain what it means to encourage and recommend volunteers~ 57 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Howe: Make that meeting in early March if you could. I'd like to be there, COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS: Lash: Okay. we have any commission member committee reports? Howe: The race committee didn'L.o Hoffman: But you got the green light if you read the packet. Lash: Very nice. Dave, are you on any committees? Moes: No. Lash: Okay... COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATION: Roeser: What's the story on dogs m Lake Ann park? Are they banned entirely or what? Hoffman: Except on the trail if you're walking through the park. And they're supposed to be on a leash. Roeser: I just wanted, and I never thought I'd speak ap for dogs but it seems to me that during the offseason of the beach and stuff, if we almost could have dogs out there~ But they've got to be on a leash and on the trail? You can't walk them. aronnd? Hoffman: That's carrent policy, correcL Roeser: A lot of them out there. Lot of people breaking the law out there. Hoffman: Well once they get on the lake they can run all they want. Yeah, we're not out there actively enforcing it during the winter. Lash: They don't bother too many people~ That's mostly who's there in the winter. Roeser: Yeah, no I don't think in the winter time at all they bother people. It's not a good deal. Hoffman: Loren's dog comes and sees me every time I'm down there at Carver Beach. Lash: Any other commissioner presentations? Franks: I just have one thing, and I know that it's late and this just kind of comes through the back door but, ?t' s difficult for me not to be thinking about'what"s been happening with the Public Safety Commission and not deny or for me anyway accept having an impact on what I'm 58 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 doing here. And having a feeling like that as far as the rest of the city is concerned, that's not happening and yet we're a citizen commission just like they were a citizen commission and all of a sudden they're not a citizen commission, or they are. They don't know. And l'm thinking well what does that mean for us as a citizen commission and where do we fit into that whole picture. And I know that we may not get a lot of resolutions from the council and the mayor on exactly what's happening there. Maybe that's not our position to get that but I think it is having an impact on what we're doing, at least I know I carry that with me whenever I come to a meeting or get that packet in the mail. And I would just like to hear from each of you if that's a topic that we need to bring up as a discussion or if we are concerned about that as a body. To let the council know that we are concerned about that so they can discuss with us what our position is. Where they see us as a body. Or...if this is just my personal issue and if so I'll pursue that personal issue. One of the thoughts that came to my mind, if it is an issue for this whole commission, is to look at putting together some kind of resolution and maybe that would go concurrent with our goals about how, what we see as our value and why we're doing what we're doing so they can certainly have that information. Lash: And with what we just looked at with our budget. We're a commission and we're supposed to make recommendations and supposed to have some of the, l don't want to say the bigger picture. They're supposed to have the bigger picture but we're supposed to have a little bit more narrow picture of xvhat we would like to do and how we think we can accomplish that with the budget and then to have the budget come back to us in a totally tbreign tbrm makes it difficult to try and do the job that we thought we were going to try to do. So you know this is an example I think of lack of communication and Rod brought that up earlier. How are we going to communicate what we're talking about when you said how will we communicate that. That was with the strategic plan. You know how can we have strategic plan, how can we as a commission make goals when we do that and then all ora sudden the rug gets pulled out from under you. And then our goal, I'll go a step further with Rod to say I'm a little on the paranoid side now that if we do speak up and say, you know this causes frustration and this causes, you know Fred brought up the Coulter Boulevard thing. That sounds like that's supposed to be a non-issue anymore. That kind of stuff just doesn't go away and if you bring it up, will we all of a sudden either be not reappointed or will we be dissolved as a commission because we're not agreeing with. Berg: Or almost worst, just ignored. Roeser: I think they'd have a hard time dissolving a commission. Berg: I must admit when the Mayor's here I'm a little more guarded in what I sayo Because I don't know what she's thinking about us any more. Howe: Well I think everybody knows that this, and we have two new members now on the council but I mean they're very cost focused and the business side of me respects that~ But then I think about, we talk about this many an evening over a cold one. How do you put a value on who's using your park and what, you can't put a number on that. That's an intangible that you 59 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 never could put a number on so they're trying to put a business, I've always thought government does things for people~ Government's not meant to make a profit. It's not here to make a profit. Roeser: Government isn't a business° Howe: No, it's not. And I think it's very hard with something like parks to try to make it a business. You're not going to get anywhere with iL So I have a problem with that. If you're going to cost benefit everything we do, you're going to come up empty handed and it's going to be a worthless statistics in my mind. Lash: My feeling philosophically like we are not on the same page. And it's, I don't feel productive because you just don't know if you can move forward or you can't move forward and I feel like the trust relationship is, has been violated partly because of what's happened with the public safety commission. I don't know how effective we can be because it's hard to... Howe: We have to do our jobs and we're still doing our jobs. Franks: I'd like, if I could, propose a resolution~ Maybe I could just read what I've prepared and see if there's any discussion on it. My resolution would be as follows for our commission~ As a commission we are concerned about recent developments in the management of Chanhassen and the impact these developments may have on the level of direct citizen participation in the governings of our city. We the citizen members of the Park and Recreation Commission resolve to support and encourage the volunteer commission process as an important component for the healthy management of our community. With professional staff support, this commission will continue to provide the public with an approachable forum The resulting reason council offered the recommendations will enhance the quality of decision making process from which we will all benefit. Roeser: What you're saying is you're supporting the public safety cornmission more or less. Franks: That the decision to have or not have the public safety commission is not mine. What I'm supporting is what we do in our commission process= Roeser: But if I were a council person I would read that as kind of a shot at the need for dispensing with the public safety commission. I wouldn't read that as a, 1 don't know whaL Franks: Well...and I know that this is just my own thinking so I didn't consider this to be an end result. ! really wanted to hear what everybody else had to say so we could maybe put something together in a resolution form that was, really spoke for us as a body. If that's possible, and maybe that's not possible. Howe: Well I respect your fire brand tactics. But I think you've got two new members. I think Linda Jansen is a friend of ours I would consider now. I think you wait and just see where things shake out. See howxhese'new people work on this. I think they realize the people who have been there on the council, that we have an idea and there's been something missing. Going back 6O Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 to Coulter Boulevard. I don't think it's a surprise if they didn't think that. They'd have to think that. Hoffman: I don't know how you can put it into the mix but I believe it's next Monday's work session where they're going to talk about reorganization and I know I don't believe that work session's going to fit in the courtyard conference room so there's probably going to be downstairs here to have the ability to house the people who are interested in that work session. And that may be a time for either people as residents or commission members to participate. Roeser: Are they aware, the council is aware that they've stirred up a hornet's nest. They must be, right? Hoffrnan: That's for them to say. Roeser: I don't know, I think it will shake itself out. I really think it will work itself out eventually. Lash: Well I'd have to think it'd be pretty obvious to them that we support the commission process. Roeser: I don't think Nancy could wm an election right now. Berg: Is this off the record I hope? Lash: No, we're on the record. But we, yeah. But obviously we support the commission process for this city. We're on a commission. We support that. And I value this process and I hate to see it being upset with what happened. I think if all of a sudden there were some type of turmoil or some kind of an issue or whatever created all this, I don't know but if it happened to us, 1 would be feeling that our role here isn't valued and isn't necessarily and someone else can do it when our role here as a citizen is important and I think in every area where we have a commission, to have that citizen input is important, i don't know if, how much more fbrmally we need to state that to the council other than the fact that we're on a commission. Obviously we think that is a valuable contribution to how this city operates. And you know I don't know if we need to say it to them formally that we think it's important. Orjust by our action of being here they can figure that out. I don't know. Berg: I'd like to see some vehicle that we can get some feedback from them that they in fact do support what we're doing. They're our council members on the city council right now that I have never once, yeah I understand. I have never once heard a couple city council people ever say that they valued or listened to what we said. And when you get the budget.~. There was a tape change at this point in the discussion. 61 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999 Lash: I think this could be some conversation for our work session too. When, if this is our first item, it can be a lead in to some of these feelings that I think some of us are sharing here. And by the time we meet, maybe there will be some resolutions to some of the turmoil that's going on. Franks: It would be a sorry thing in my opinion that if we were operating, whether we were conscience about it or not, with some sense that if we didn't make the right recommendation or say the right thing or do the right thing that some unknown terrible thing would happen to us as a body or as individuals and we might not be consciously aware of doing that and still be operating with that process at the same time so part of my goal too is to really kind of name that, if it is in fact something that might be going on and to kind of really get that out and that needs to be looked at. Because that is also a management issue. So I wanted to throw that out. I had no idea really what the rest of you were all interested in doing about that but I just wanted to put that out there so at least we could open it up for discussion to see if there was something we wanted to do or not. Hoffman: As a group you do not wish to send a resolution, then your other avenues again I think are to attend public meetings that the city council holds or to wait until their scheduled joint meeting with you which will occur I think in March. Or to speak with individual members of the council. Lash: Okay. Anyone else have any commission member presentations? ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET: Lash: Do we have anything under the administrative packet? Franks: I just want to say that I'm choosing then not to make a motion to move forward cm the resolution at this time after hearing that comment ~'rom the rest of the commissior~.. Lash: Okay, thanks Todd. Anybody have anything on the administrative section? Okay, Todd you don't have anything else? Hoffman: No. Lash: Okay, is there a motion to adjourn? Franks moved, Berg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:15 p.m. Submitted by Todd Hofih~an Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 62