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1 Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING APRIL 27, 1999 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Mike Howe, Fred Berg, Jim Manders, Jay Karlovich and Dave Moes MEMBERS ABSENT: Rod Franks STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent; Tracy Peterson, Recreation Supervisor; and Susan Kamp, Department Secretary WELCOME NEW PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSIONER, JAY KARLOVICH. Lash: The first thing on our agenda is to welcome our new commissioner, Jay Karlovich. Did I say that right Jay? Karlovich: Yes you did. Lash: Okay, so congratulations and welcome Jay. Hoffman: Jan I think we also formally, I didn't put it on the agenda but welcome our two new staff members. Lash: Yeah, you want to do the introductions Todd. Hoffman: Tracy Peterson on the right is our new Recreation Supervisor .... working at Arden Hills and lives in New Brighton. She's doing a wonderful job for us. Highly qualified and we knew that when her application came in out of about 107 that she would certainly be one of the top candidates. Glad she's here. Lash: Welcome Tracy. Hoffman: And Susie Kamp is a resident of Chanhassen and is our new department secretary. Sets new ground for Chanhassen Parks and Recreation. We've never had our own secretary so that's...excited to be here and both of them have been on the job about what, 2 ½ weeks? Glad to have them here and Scott Botcher, our new city manager starts on Monday so lots of things happening here at City Hall. Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: TOM SCHAFFER~ OUTDOOR SWIMMING POOL. Tom Schaffer: Hello and thank you. My name is Tom Schaffer. I live at 6501 Devonshire Drive and I'm a 12 year resident of Chanhassen and proud to be here. It's a great community and I had my choice of communities when we moved here so I chose Chanhassen so it's been great. My purpose, and I'll lay that right out up front. My purpose here tonight is to seek approval of doing a Chanhassen aquatics needs survey and that's what I'm here asking for tonight. And if given approval I'd like to work with Todd, work with staff to develop a survey of this community to find out if there is an interest in aquatics in Chanhassen. Whether that be indoor, outdoor, recreational, fitness, leisure. Just to kind of find out where we are as a community. And in some respects it does kind of follow part of the strategic plan that the City Council has done in that under their quality of amenities action steps, they talk about institute a process for determining the need for future public facilities. Develop implementation plans for public facilities when projections of utilization and funding indicate near term viability. And conduct long term needs assessments for cultural and recreational facilities such as, and they list a few of them. And one of them in there is a community center which definitely could house an auditorium or aquatics center. I think my experience, we're kind of behind what other communities in the Minneapolis and St. Paul area are doing. There's aquatics is really big out there and I know that because, and why is it me coming here tonight? It's my job. I'm an aquatics consultant. I have a consulting engineering company by the name of U.S. Aquatics and that's how I make my living. By designing, planning, aquatic facilities. Right now we have 48 active aquatic projects going on right now. That's not all we've done. That's what's active right now. And out of that 48, 40 of them are here in the State of Minnesota. So aquatics is big in this state. It's getting bigger every day. There's so much going on around us, up in Plymouth at Lifetime Fitness and Maple Grove, Anoka, Maplewood, St. Louis Park, Eagan, Apple Valley. Everybody is putting in aquatic facilities. And there's a combination of whether indoor or outdoor and ifI had to break it down in percentage I would say about half of the pool, the aquatic facilities are indoor and about half are outdoor. So outdoors is still very big for aquatics, even though we have a climate in which we can only use them about 3 months out of the year. It's still a big business. Big industry. And what I brought tonight was I brought slides and I hope you'll allow me to show you them and they are examples of aquatic facilities. And I know that at one time there was a plan to do a small swimming pool in a community center here. I'm not talking about a swimming pool. A swimming pool is a body of water in which swimming is the main activity. Aquatic centers aren't like that. They're water parks. They're where people do a variety of activities in water and in dry land around the water. So it has become a big part of our business. It's great recreation and it's good for the community. The other thing that has always concerned me as a 12 year resident, xve have four children. All boys. And living in Curry Farms our boys go to the Minnetonka School District and Chanhassen has always been a community that's been divided school district wise. With some of our children going to Chaska and some of them going to Minnetonka. And I think that a community center, I think an aquatic center would be something that would bring the community together. I think it would better bind them as a whole. I know when my kids were growing up even with sports, it was very important whether they participated in Chan/Chaska sports or they participated in South Tonka sports and it's always been something that's kind of divided the community and I think this would be a good anchor, a good base. And Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 that's also part of what was in the strategic plan. With that said, I would like to show you some of our projects that we've done. Almost all of them are in the State of Minnesota. Is that alright? Lash: Sure, go ahead. Tom Schaffer: As I said, U.S. Aquatics is a consulting engineering company. We do not build pools. We do not rep any proprietary products. We're strictly a consulting engineering finn... Minnesota Consulting...Council and that's our business. This is a typical swimming pool. This is what you might see in a lot of the pools in the state. They're a six lane, short course competitive pool. So this is really a definition ofwhat...This is also one that we did at Glenwood, Minnesota. Minnewaska School District. Again it looks very institutional. This is one we did in Orono. This is in a phase when people couldn't decide whether they wanted 25 yards or 25 meters so a lot of...25 yards one way and 25 meters the other way. Still very institutional looking. This is one we did in Warroad. Now we're seeing some community involvement and community pressure to do more than just swimming so this is a...but in the background is a shallow pool that they use for instructional purposes and kids, what we call minnow lessons for very small toddlers. And we also start incorporating spas into these facilities. This isn't a flying W. This is actually the Marvin Window logo if you look at it right. Marvin Windows put up money to put in that spa so that's how it got incorporated. Still now this is one we did at Ada, Minnesota and what we're doing here is finally starting to get to the point where we're starting to incorporate some of the outside...lowered up the windows. Still very much competitive swimming pool. This is Laveme, Minnesota. Having...just where you do lessons. Again we incorporated a spa...community use. This is the Mesabe YMCA up in Mountain Iron. Again a very institutional looking facility... One thing in the state is it's hard, when you go to a swimming pool, the State Health Department defines a swimming pool as a pool that has a shallow end that is at least 3 foot deep. No deeper than 3 foot 6 at the shallow end. So every swimming pool in the state has a 3 foot or 3 foot 6 shallow end. You can see in this pool that it'd be very hard to do lessons for small children. So this really doesn't work well for community use. This is what we did at the Miller...Medical Center up in Duluth. Again this is more or less more ora fitness pool for therapy. Also included a spa. Then we came to the generation of aquatic centers. Of indoor primarily like the Chaska Community Center. I know some of you are familiar with that facility. We did that. This has about 5,000 square feet of water surface area in two pools. They've got the fitness pool in the foreground and the leisure pool in the backgn:ound and as part of that leisure pool, about 2 ½ feet and then they've got a swimming channel that's off to the left...water slide that's in the center on that... So this is what we first considered a multi-use facility for all kinds of range of water activities and it's kind of the first generation. The only thing that Denver beat us by about 2 years. They started... This we opened, we opened Christmas vacation of 1990 is when Chaska... In fact it's so new they don't even have a base line... Those are spas. There's two of them. There's a hot water spa and warm water spa... This here was a vortex pool. Kind of like a hydrotherapy pool but you don't have... And then we started getting into interactive play features of pools and this is a raindrop which we kind of called.., all the junior high girls would get together and talk about their boyfriends. The next one in here is Shoreview... Nice again multi- purpose pool in which we have fitness in the center...beach type entry in the background and took this...This is from the other end. You can see in the background now. From left to right. The right is a plunge pool. Dedicated plunge 3 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 pool for the water slide. At right is a mass circle or aerobics area. Aquatic aerobics in a big thing in pools now. Then in the far background is the spas. That's the view from the concession area. View from the zero depth entry. That's actually a shot from the spa looking out... That's the aerobics area. That's looking closer to the spa and that's.., against my better judgment the architects went and put the climbing wall in the pool area...grave mistake. It's very hot and humid so they ended up having to put some Plexiglas down and actually air condition that area because it didn't work out too well. But again, it contains many of the amenities we have with pools. It has the drop slides. Instead of diving boards you have...a lot of facilities are going more safer amenities. Diving boards have the highest insurance rate...water slide and we have always a designated area for those things. This picture's taken from a balcony... In the background to the left are where the elevated spas are... This one we did in Becker, Minnesota. Relatively small community of 6,000 people they did this community center. It's really great, all that glass area, it's hard to take slides in there because it just feels like indoors in there. That's a whole southern exposure with all that glass and we have the water slides and... This is from the concession area. Typically in swimming pools, I don't care whether they're indoor or outdoor. Your typical concession time of what you could retain.., about two hours. Three hours maximum. We found out when we did the aquatic facility, we would retain bathers there for six hours. One thing we discovered very early on in these projects is if you're going to have somebody at your facility for six hours, you're going to have to do two things for sure. You're going to have to provide some shade for them in an outdoor one, and you're going to have to provide a concession area. Then we found out that the concessions was a big revenue source. That's a photo of the zero depth entry. All these facilities there's a... On the back right is a half circle. Again, that's an aquatic aerobics area and zero depth area off to the left... I've been doing this for 25 years and that kid is why I'm doing it. The first pool I got involved in after I got my degree in architecture, I went and took a temporary job for a pool contractor who wanted me to do pool drawings for him and...temporary job. He said it's a great opportunity for you. You meet architects and engineers. You can interview as you want and pick yourself up a permanent job...The first pool I did it was the kids that got me hooked on the... It was them coming up and thanking me for what I did...Cornelius Park. 50 meter swimming pool. If you can see back there you can count very few heads and that's what we found out too that the deeper the water, the fewer bathers you're going to have in the area. All the activity was always in the splash pool and the shallow water so there are about 4 times as many people in the splash pool as there are in the swimming pool although the water surface area in the swimming pool is about 5 times greater than what that splash pool is. Closer shot. That's a shot from the spy tower so you can...interactive play area... On the left side you can see the umbrellas with... Here's showing you the fun pool. It doesn't get a lot of use. You have diving boards... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Tom Schaffer: ...community and see if there's any interest out there. And again I don't want to define it yet as an indoor, outdoor, swimming pool, water park. I would like the residents of Chanhassen to tell us, and maybe they'll come back with no need at all. Then I'll go away. But thank you for your time. Manders: How would, have you got time for a question? 4 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Tom Schaffer: Absolutely. Manders: In terms of funding the survey, what did you have in mind? Tom Schaffer: Well, I will gladly donate my time. All I would think the expense of the survey would be the printing and the mailing out of the survey itself. So that, yes, I would ask for funding of that portion of it. But to put the survey together to work with your staff, I would do that free of charge as a resident ofChanhassen. I don't do that for anybody else, okay? Lash: Other questions for Tom? Howe: What, say one of those facilities. What's the dollar amount? Play and Sun, something like that? Tom Schaffer: To do a larger aquatic park, well Apple Valley did $3.5 million on theirs and Eagan did $7.1 million on theirs. So yes you are talking millions of dollars. But that was after about a 3 year process of defining the project and the citizens feeling comfortable with what they could afford. Lash: ...Chaska? Tom Schaffer: Chaska ran about $12 million but they've got ice arenas there and they expanded that another $6 million and now they've got the theater there. The aquatics portion of it was, the pools themselves was about $400,000.00 and the natatorium around it was about, with the locker rooms I'd saw was about a million. Lash: Todd, I'd be interested. We did just survey the residents not too long ago didn't we on, before we had the referendum and all of that. Incorporated in that survey did we ask questions regarding water facilities? Aquatic facilities and how the residents felt those needs were being... Hoffman: Single question about community center and it still rated high. Berg: We do look at this in a, most people like to see something more formal in terms of costs and exactly what would be on the survey in terms of the types of questions and whatever so we have some idea of what we're talking about other than just a vague notion. Lash: And the commission procedures Tom are that we allow presentations, visitor presentations but that any action that we would take on this particular item would need to be on our next agenda. So we wouldn't be able to take action on that this evening but we could request that it be placed on our, onto our agenda. So that it can be in for publication for review. Anyone else with question or comment? Hoffman: To clarify, Fred's questions .... recommendation or a report I guess it would be and we could make a recommendation to the City Council and forward it. Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Berg: How extensive the survey would be. The costs. The purpose. Lash: Okay, given that. We will move this item to a future, next available agenda for discussion then. Thanks Tom. Tom Schaffer: Thank you. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash: Anyone have corrections to the Minutes? Okay, given that, is there a motion to approve? Manders moved, Moes seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated March 23, 1999 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. INITIATION OF AN ADOPT-A-PARK PROGRAM. Hoffman: Thank Chair Lash, members of the Commission. Adopt-a-Park or at least the concept of that has been around for quite some time. An intern student that studied, I believe it was 1994, 1995. We talked about it for a number of years. It's a concept which is utilized in great many communities. Successful in some. Not so successful in others. I think that's the real issue with whether or not we want to start it. It does involve some up front planning and does involve some budget dollars and some follow through to maintain these programs... The attachments that we compiled back in '92, these programs run the gamut. Everything from in some communities the programs act just about like a park and recreation commission capital improvement budget. All the way down to the very simple just picking up picnic trash. I would think anything that the commission would be involved in would commence in year 2000 as a part of the 2000 budget. That would allow staff time to implement a proposal and work with the commission over the next 6 to 8 months. And some publishing of brochures, printing. Those type of things and public Campaign and moving forward with programs so with that, it's something that the commission should discuss and give staff some direction. Lash: Okay, comments. Howe: This would on the surface seem to help us with maintenance. We could save some money if we could have our park crews. I mean looking at this, there's a lot of issues. They talk about unions. They talk about you know danger. Power tools. Getting hit by a car. Things like that. If we didn't have one of these in place, my recommendation would be that, I think it's a great idea. I would have nothing to do with power tools. I think picking up litter or painting or some of the basic things. Raking the beach, whatever, makes sense. It just, some of the legal language, the legal language scares me a lot of the time. This kind of scared me as far as well OSHA's got to be in here and you know make sure you don't pick up sticks that are this long without gloves on and well, you know. Some of that, I think it would help us as far as our park maintenance, stretching those dollars further but I think you've got to keep it simple. 6 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: Dave. Moes: I kind of echo the same comments is to keep it simple really. You go beyond that I think the management of it becomes a critical issue. You have to manage the volunteers as well as the potential activities or accidents. I'm on the same page as trying to keep it simple with the painting, the clean-up. Spring clean-up. We've done that many times with the sports activities. Volunteers coming out to rake up the fields. Pick up the trash. It works out real well. Lash: Okay, I guess I would be along the same line. Were you thinking just as an easy option, sending something to neighborhoods, asking them if they wish to adopt their neighborhood park? Or are you thinking from outside groups like scouts and like that or did you not really? Hoffman: Yeah, I think most of them take anybody. Groups, well community groups, neighborhoods, churches. Lash: And to me it seems the logical beginning point would be to send, apply or whatever to neighborhoods and say we're looking for volunteers to adopt your neighborhood park and make a list of these are the types of maintenance, or don't use the word, I wouldn't use the word maintenance. That makes it sound like too much work but activities. Neighborhood activities that you could be responsible for such as trash pick-up. If there's beach raking or picking up goose droppings and things like that or glass. Neighborhood watch. Kind of keep an eye on it and have a reporter to the city. If they see something that needs to be done by maintenance and j__h_i_ng_s__li__k_e__th_a_t and then possibly each spring to send, after you guys have had the opportunity to pools themselves was about $400,060.00~and the natatorium around it was about, with the loCker the sort oI the captain oi me group Ol WllilttTYtTl. I U 3ClIU tllC ll3t allu 3a.y [tivo~ cit,,~ .......... ~5 ...... we'd like to see happen this year in your park. To group together and get these done. And if it is simple like pick-up and raking and I agree, stay away from the power tools and that kind of stuff. I think it could, I could see it saving a lot of money and really keeping the parks looking nice and providing that ownership that will hopefully some of those people feeling good about it and keeping it looking nice. I'll stop rambling now. I really hated it when ! read the Minutes last time. Berg: It did work. Read them again. You're a wonderful person to follow. Anything we can do to increase ownership in the parks is terrific. I would emphasize I guess maybe more looking at the neighborhood watch idea too because it seems like vandalism is going to be more and more of a problem every place. And if we can increase that so it's just a casual look, more often than that and maybe we can do some coordinating and. Hoffman: Combine it with the Neighborhood Watch. Berg: Yeah. And when we start organizing these things, maybe we can offer this facility or something. Someone to, you know I love me for volunteering you or somebody but to help coordinate and maybe make some suggestions. Here are some things you can do. What more do you think you'd like to do. And really get them involved and give them a sense of having Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 something to do with it but let them come here instead of meeting someplace or whatever so it really looks like it's organized and something that they should take seriously and not, someone's going to take a fire with. Hoffman: Yeah, it's going to take some coordination. We have 27 sites. If you have 27 of these groups to manage those individuals and to keep them on task and going. Lash: Well if you gave them a simple list and said, here's what you need to do. We'd like it done within the next month or whatever instead of trying to pick a day because that's hard for you. It's hard for everyone else and then send us the list when it's done and then we know you're done. How much supervision do you think really would be required? I feel like they should be able to do some of those simple tasks without a bunch of city staff people there watching them to make sure they're. Berg: They'll need the help getting started though in terms of initially. Hoffman: Yeah trash, clean-up is the easy one. That can happen, any time you get into anything that includes any materials and then who buys it? So you're going to paint a park sign. You know we have to supply the paint because it has to be the right colors for the parks...pick that up and those sort of things so there's just that coordination. But that can happen. And you can design that in a variety of ways. You can do a materials pick-up. You know the captains have to do it one Saturday in the spring and they do the projects. And I would attempt, I think it would be more successful if we focused on seasons so we'd do a major clean-up in the spring. Clean-up in the fall. Maybe something in the summer because if you give them a list and expect them to maintain your park site all summer long, they're going to lose interest. They're not going to get fired up for it and even three times I think that would be a stretch. I think a spring one and a fall one is probably about all you can ask for. Howe: Well especially with the turnout we get when we get the neighborhoods build new parks. I think this could work. I mean a lot of people take part in those. Karlovich: What was the input from the other cities? It's a huge amount of material. I got the feeling that some thought it was more of a management problem but then others it was successful or what was the? What's staff's position on it? What if your read on success of these programs? Hoffman: It all depends on the management and what you put into them, you're going to get back out of them. I think the new City Manager coming on line Monday morning comes from a town of 6,000 people and if I'm not mistaken, they have a volunteer coordinator full time. For a town of 6,000 people that coordinates the volunteer for the city. We don't have that. The person who would coordinate these efforts would most likely be me. Karlovich: The other question I had was the reward. Would it be, it seemed like some gave certificates. Others gave you know MnDOT, Adopt a Highway was you got free advertising. If the road looked dirty then. Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Hoffman: That was the problem. Karlovich: Your advertising wasn't very good so which way would. Hoffman: I think a combination of both. The City Council is big into this volunteer picnic, at least this year so you could acknowledge those people at future volunteer picnics. I think a sign is appropriate. You know the trinkets and that. Lash: You know at some point you have to weigh how much is the volunteer picnic, the sign, the certificates, your time. All of that stuff costs a lot of money and we need to make sure that whatever they're providing is saving enough in our normal maintenance costs that it's not costing us more to do the volunteer thing. Hoffman: I think the big thing would be to have each of them take their picture every spring as a group and if we could take a full page or two pages in the Chanhassen Villager and say here are, this is our Adopt a Park Program for the spring. Here are our volunteers. It shows a lot of acknowledgement and a lot of, gets people fired up about the commitment so that might work. Lash: Do you have anything else Jay? Karlovich: No. Lash: Jim. Manders: You know several of the things said I would agree. I would say thatjust starting out to keep it as simple. The process of twice a year. Begim~ing and the end and revolving around you know starting, just picking up trash and maybe raking down like in the spring. If there's ruts and stuff, whatever. Get that squared away. And the fall, the sticks or whatever. But some of the questions as far as legal and safety issues. One question ! would have is in terms of coordinating it and how much time do we have to spend in coordinating this? Mostly from the staff perspective, given how much we want to do. It doesn't mean we shouldn't do it but it's certainly an issue. And then something I think should done to, you know this whole captain idea is, I think that's going to be the key to the success of this is finding people that want to take that on and contact the other members of their neighborhood or whatever to make this go. That's going to turn over but if you can incent that kind of an individual or find something that you can do for them, that I think will make this the most likely to succeed. Hoffman: I agree with that. That worked very well in these neighborhood installs. When we did not identify a focal person, then they called us constantly. All the different members and when you identified a focal person, then they called that particular neighborhood volunteer. Lash: You maybe already have an idea of. Hoffman: Well in some of the areas, oh sure. 9 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Kamp: What's the feasibility of developing it as, developing leaders as a committee? Hoffman: An organization. Kamp: Underneath either our Park and Rec department or under the Park and Rec Commission. We have a lot of park areas. A lot of trails. A lot of park area. A lot of lakes and coming, I mean I'm new to this city of Chan offices but I'm not new to Chan and people really do love the parks. They take pride in them. They care about them. They want to see them continue to be nice and be developed. My sense would be at least the people in my neighborhood would certainly want to take part in this. Karlovich: I think your idea about the reward though about, I think about my...troop and those girls get to do an awful lot of exciting things. Tell them they're going to pick up trash, I think a lot of them are spoiled. Maybe if they were going to get their picture in the paper, then it would turn the key. Kamp: You brought up a good point. That reminds me too. The kids in the Brownies troops, I mean they get points for service awards. For community service and certainly doing something like picking up trash is, it's important and it's humbling and it teaches them something very important. Lash: I think it'd be easy to get the, say City Center, I think it'd be easy to get the school to do a lot of that and they could have a pick-up day. I think the same with Bluff Creek. To find some area group like the Lions or the Rotary or some larger group like that who would help with, again that's a huge undertaking. Neighborhood parks I really feel like we could. Hoffman: Tap into the neighbors. Lash: Yep. Manders: All and all I think it's a great idea. Hoffman: We can do it. Berg: It's worth a try. Lash: Okay. Do you need a motion on that? Hoffman: Just a motion to have staff go ahead and prepare a first draft of an Adopt a Park program and present it back to the commission probably in June. Lash: And would you be interested in trying to start in the fall? Hoffman: We'd have to budget cash for it in the 2000 budget. 10 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: So next spring we'd try and kick it off, okay. Berg: So moved. Lash: Is there a second? Moes: Second. Berg moved, Moes seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to prepare a draft of the Adopt-a-Park program beginning in the spring of 2000. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. ESTABLISHMENT OF A PRIVATE MEMORIAL POLICY. Lash: We have lots of info here about that. Hoffman: Yeah, there's a lot of info about that one as well. First of all an update on the current proposal which has been, your recommendation was forwarded to the City Council. I added on that recommendation that I thought prior to that one being approved we should establish a policy. The City Council chose not to take that route but instead approved the application. With that action being taken, Phillip Elkin who is our Water Resource Coordinator, who I contacted immediately upon receiving Mr. Maher's request, stepped forward with Kate Aanenson, our Community Development Director and said well this thing, as we see it today, most likely will not meet our shoreland setback ordinance and wetland ordinance. Phillip, Nancy Mancino, the Mayor and Jerry are meeting tomorrow afternoon to talk about it. What options he has available for the project. So we've worked on it for a month and a half or so. Had a lot of meetings. It puts everybody in a difficult spot. That's the reason cities have these private memorial policies. I think I can let Susan speak to the conversation that you had with the different people. She had the task of contacting them. Asking for this information and 1 think she heard first hand information from them that she'd like to share with you. Kamp: The feedback that I got was that yes. Having, accepting memorials is very important and it means something to the community and it means something back to the city and so there has, we have to develop some kind of a relationship. But what each one said, I contacted new communities and old communities. I tried to contact some communities which were similar to us or growing at our same pace and in most cases the feedback I got was from the cities who had, who were well established. For instance like Edina. The problems that they had run into was in maintaining the memorials. Was in not having a policy developed with regard to the size of a memorial. So for instance somebody who was very wealthy could install a very large memorial and so you say okay to that but then the person who doesn't have the money to install a large memorial, that starts to create a problem within the community. And I could see that happening here as I was hearing this feedback because we're a community of middle lower class, middle class, middle upper and upper class citizens so there's a great disparity in economic status. So it's going to be really important that what we do for the community, what they told me is important that it's fair. That there's some kind of equity when we develop a policy about what 11 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 we're going to do. Again maintenance. What happens when the plaque, what happens 30 years from now or 20 years from now when the plaque gets old? And it needs to either be redone or taken down so we need to be sure that if we're going to do plaques, that we establish some kind of a policy they said about that. And one of the things that, one of the pieces of feedback I got was that a park can start to look like a cemetery and that was with regard to having you know too many memorials. So you're going through, somebody's running through a park or sitting on a park bench or going for a walk and the feedback they got from their citizens was, is this my park that I paid for as a taxpaying citizen or I feel like I'm walking through a cemetery. That was one of the citizen complaints when the memorials got, when there got to be too many memorials in this park. So some of the policies they developed, some allowed, they would put a band around a tree limb with a memorial plaque. Most I think preferred to put the memorial on park benches. On the back ora park bench. One of the things that worked out well with one community was to, with a large memorial was to install a playground. I believe they did a small playground with a basketball court or soccer field or something. And I think, I can't remember. Lash: That was a one person memorial or was that a group? Kamp: Yes. No, it was a one person memorial. It was quite a large memorial. That was the largest one that that particular community had. And that seemed to work out well because it didn't appear like it was, you know nobody felt like they were in a cemetery or a graveyard and it was something that was interactive for the entire community. For families with children. So that sort of community. Lash: Thanks Susan. Anybody have questions for Susan? Howe: I wasn't here at the meeting when you discussed all this and I was ambivalent about it then. Was it Commissioner Franks, Rod had some problems with this. I'm still not sure where I'd go. I think it's good that you have a catalog of issues. Here are some ideas that we can provide you for the very reasons you brought up. Some of them I hadn't thought of which are very good. And then I read in the last section that there was a problem with this one individuals, the lakeshore. I think it's wonderful that a resident wants to do something for a loved one that we all can benefit from, but I think you need to put limits on it. And that's hard to do. A catalog, these seem to be a lot of work. Somebody went through here and priced all these things out and it ranged from bikes for the policemen to party kits for block parties. I mean that's a lot of stuff so I don't know where you go with it but I think you do have to put limits on it. For those very reasons. Kamp: May I add something? ...thought is that most of the cities found it was very important for the city to obtain the rights to actually prepare, manufacture and install the plaques if they were to do plaques. Lash: Dave? Moes: Is there a lot of money that's generated from this? 12 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: This is pretty new. Actually we've only, there's only been a couple of cases where we've done any kind of memorials. There was a bench put down by Lotus Lake, right? Overlooking the lake. Another gentlemen, his family purchased a bench to go along a trail by Rice Marsh Lake. It's just that he liked the trail and they wanted a place to sit. And that has a little plaque on it, doesn't that? Yeah. And then as a city we did, you saw at Bandimere tonight, we put the boulder and the plaque and the tree for Dave Huffman. And to my knowledge, those are the only three memorials that we've had. Have there been others in the past? Hoffman: Yeah. Don Andrus. You talked about that one? Lash: Yeah. Hoffman: The benches. And then the bench over here on Kerber. Memorial bench. Lash: Who's that for? Hoffman: ...there's at least two that have been built, dedicated, placed out at Lake Ann that are no longer there and the history of Lake Ann. There's about three trees at Lake Ann that were planted as memorials. There's been more over time. There's some that have requested and inquired and just... Lash: Dave did you? Moes: My comments really are, I think it is an important issue that we do need to address. There's so much to it though. Heard about it from the last session and going through the information and material and Susan's comments as well, it is something that definitely brings that community together. It also needs to be very diligently again and I'm not sure right now what the appropriate step to take or boundaries to put on it but would certainly like looking at developing some sort of a plan or policy for it. It started out, it seemed like it was so small and yet it's gotten so big all ora sudden. All these different options out there that I think it really needs to be looked at. Lash: I feel that we need to look at this and address this because it is very difficult when someone comes before you with a proposal to say no. And if we can have, this is going to be hard to do and maybe it's even impossible to do. I'd like to feel like we could have some kind of a brochure. I don't know that it needs to be as specific as what some of these cities have done as far as overhead projectors... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Lash: I would like to be able to provide maybe a little brochure that would say these are some suggestions that we would find easily acceptable. Trees, benches, you know bird houses. I don't know. We'd have to really think of some specific kinds of things that we might like that we think would fit in. Say it was someone who say was a Kerber. An original Kerber and they wanted to dedicate something and they wanted it at Kerber Pond Park. We could say wood duck 13 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 houses or we could say bridge construction or we could, with some ballpark dollar amounts that would be, make it easier for people to make an informed decision. But still make it something that's somewhat personal for whoever the memorial is. If it's for a specific park because they lived there or a specific item because of their person's preference. If it's wildlife or if it, I mean I would not want to, and I would not want to put a dollar amount on it I guess because I feel like if somebody wants to come forward and donate $35,000.00 for a play structure, I don't want to say no. We put a little plaque on a play structure but we get a big play structure for the city. Right, so if somebody's got a lot of money and they want to donate it and somebody doesn't have a lot of money, I want to just provide options. I don't want to say because you have a lot of money, we're not going to put in a playground structure. Sacrifice what could be a nice amenity to our city so you know I understand the feeling where some people would have more money. So because they have more money should they be able to have a big, lavish memorial. Well, they had a big lavish house a big lavish car and a big lavish vacations and we don't all have that but that's life. And they can afford to do that and they want to donate it and we can use it, I say we go for it. But I think it'd be nice to provide options that we know up front we're comfortable with. We would not have a problem accepting, so some very clear suggestions. However I'd like to feel like we could be flexible too. Moes: I think, can I just jump in? Lash: Yeah. Moes: I think you raise some excellent points and the lavish memorial part is the intriguing I think term that we put out there but the one thing that we've heard about is just the ongoing maintenance so I think to that memorial or object, whatever we put into the park, I really need is to follow, you know somewhat of the guidelines is what's normal and customary for the park so that it can maintained on an ongoing basis. That's why I was thinking the benches were good because we've got benches in the park that are maintained just like a lot of the other facilities. You've got the new playground set. That's kind of the normal, customary maintenance items as well so I think that's...that we need to keep it within the confines of a park environment which keeps it easily maintained. Kamp: Right now it's not a problem but you can see that in, what it's about 6 years or 7 years our community has grown like 350% so and I don't see it stopping. Lash: The other thing is we have not had that many people approach us wanting to do this. ! don't see it as turning into an overwhelming problem but it would be nice to be able to just have it be clear so that when people do want it. Hoffman: And if you offer the program, there's going to be more interest. Lash: Right. Kamp: Us baby boomers are going to die in 30 years. Look at how many of us there are going to be. We're all going to be in the parks. 14 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: But not all of our families are going to want to donate something to the city. Karlovich: ..I guess I'd like to see the policy, you know raise revenue but I think maybe to try to promote memorials that don't require maintenance. Or that can be vandalized or some other different fashion. Maybe a picture here in City Hall that shows what was donated by somebody but, as opposed to the plaque out there that a kid's going to be standing on the rock, hitting it with the bat until it comes off. If the policy could try to promote something that's less maintenance. Hoffman: A variety of cities have gone to that. So they plant a tree in a park. It's a memorial tree but it's listed back at a large plaque at City Hall. So you get parks and we'll look at those different options and how to do that. Lash: Fred. Ramble for a while? Berg: Pretty much taken care of all the rambling again. Hoffman: Give us some specifics then. Berg: The only thing I would add would be perhaps we could go so far as to even designate where some of these memorials can be placed. If we decide we want to go the rock tree and bench route, we can even make suggestions as to where it might be an appropriate place to put them so we can be very specific so we don't, and I'd like to be really specific on what they can do too so we don't have this garish mausoleum appearing all of a sudden on Lake Ann's horizon or something. ! sort of agree with what you're saying about the vandalism but we don't know that there's going to be vandalism either. I mean if we could, I'd like to see us try like Dave's rock. Kamp: They have done with bigger memorials they have asked the donor for a maintenance fund. Lash: Jay, did you have anything else? Jim? Manders: One thing that kind of crossed my mind in some of your comments Jan was about this play structure and that's maybe a very simple kind of thing to say yeah. Why would we want to turn that down, but where do you hit the gray line and go over the line to say yeah, I want to put something down in Kerber Pond Park that's away from the water. It hasn't got any setback thing but this what's great to them but everybody else it's, you know how do you build some kind of a requirement that says yeah, you can have a play structure if you want to spend $35,000.00. But if you want to spend $35,000.00 on something else that isn't, that's where the problem is. Is going over that line. Berg: Defining what it is. 15 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Manders: Yeah. I mean it's easy to say you know this kind of things. I don't have the answer but I think that for us is going to be the challenge. Certainly I think we need to pull something together here and this isn't something you're going to get done this year, probably not next year. It's going to have to grow over time and we'll get maybe the skeleton of something together. Some ideas but I think we'll just have to keep adding to it and realize that's what the process. Lash: Could we have language in there that would say, refer to these are specific suggestions. If you have something different in mind, it would be at the complete discretion of the commission and would need to fit in with our comprehensive plan or strategic future plan. Something like that. So that at least we'd have something to fall back on. Say we think this is a beautiful, would be a beautiful tribute but it really doesn't fall in line with our long range plans. Hoffman: They buy you a playground you don't need, you haven't gained anything. Lash: Right. If someone wanted to put a playground in at Kerber Pond, obviously that wouldn't be a fitting use and we would never have thought of doing that. However, if they wanted to put one in over at Bluff Creek, someplace like that, that would be great. But again it's difficult then when they come forward with a proposal that they think is a very loving tribute, that we should welcome with open arms, to say no. Howe: You have something to fall back on and say well we wrote this in 1999. Here's some guidelines and if it doesn't... Lash: And the other thing I don't want to have to do is have it be so specific, you know as much as I like your idea of having guidelines, we'd like a tree here or a bench there, that would require a lot of updating by staff in this brochure and I wouldn't want to have to necessarily go in and redo the brochure every year as each one of those things is accomplished. Berg: I don't know that you have to put it in the brochure even. I mean they could have an inventory of where we put benches. Where we need trees. Manders: I think this is going to have to be a process that's going to be updated continually. And whether you do it every month, but you know once a year. Depending on what's out there. I think this is going to have to evolve. Lash: So maybe the brochure could be general enough to say these are items that we could recommend that the commission would be open to or the city would be open to and list some of those particular things and then come to City Hall for a more specific list of exact locations that are available for you to choose from. Because then you've got, it wouldn't be so hard for you to keep up to date or whoever's going. Kamp: The only thing about being more specific, which actually I agree with what you just said just now is that you know when people come to you with a memorial, I mean it's such, they're going through such a terrible time and it's so emotional for them. And so you have to turn to 16 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 them and say no, you can't do this. If there our policies said it's easier to make that transition then, for them and for us, and still maintain the relationships. Lash: Do you feel like you have enough? Hoffman: More than enough. Lash: Good. So do you want to, when do you feel like you'd be able to bring something back? Hoffman: August maybe. Lash: Okay. Does anyone have anything else? Do you need a motion or can you just start on that and then bring it back? Hoffman: I'd prefer a motion. Lash: Okay. Who'd like to try and make that into the form of a motion? Berg: l move we direct staff to explore the different options that we have presented regarding memorials in our parks. Lash: Is there a second to that? Moes: Second. Berg moved, Moes seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to explore the different options presented regarding memorials in city parks. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. ADOPT LAKE ANN BEACH RULES. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Lash and commissioners. As part of the last couple years we have done a lot of updating to our Lake Ann beach contracts and a lot of the different services that we provide out there. The rules that were listed on the back side of the memo have been unofficially adopted through the years and they've been kind of, these have been kind of the guidelines that they have been using for about the last 20-25 years. Coming into more ora focus now I think, I took the time to revamp some of the rules that were maybe outdated. I cleaned up some language in the rules, and ! think it really would be a great time for the commission to review and adopt the rules. Just to mitigate any type of problems that we may have. Have a set policy and rules that we can hand out to people. Here's what we have put into place and that way it doesn't put the, our city staff and the lifeguards in an awkward situation out at the beach. We've had some, there's always questions on the floatation device issues out there. That's been addressed here. Just some other things that I think would be really beneficial if we adopted these at this time. Does anybody have any questions on those? 17 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Howe: These won't be posted somewhere but they'll be available to someone if you asked? Ruegemer: That was my intent to have them available for people but if the commission would like to see some type of a formalized sign, we can prepare a sign. Manders: Especially down by Lake Ann. Berg: Do they ever enforce the under 12 rule? Number 11. Ruegemer: We certainly, you know is there going to be enforcement? Are they going to haul away a 12 year old kid? Hoffman: They talk about it lots. They're aware of it. Berg: It doesn't make any sense to have a rule if it's not going to be enforced. Ruegemer: They call the kid cops down there. Berg: Well no. Moes: Or does that lead you to the needing the posted sign down there so everyone can see it versus asking for, well what are the rules or the guidelines for the beach. Lash: So if they're 11, will they just lie and say they're 12 and what difference does it make? Hoffman: Just judgment. Lash: Actually I questioned a couple other ones. Ruegemer: Well we can certainly go through. Lash: A little bit harsh. I thought the first one was a little harsh. Don't you think that's a little rule? Ruegemer: The guidelines basically were adopted by. Lash: No eating or drinking on the beach? I mean everybody drinks a can of pop down there on the beach. Have a bag of chips and pop sitting down on the beach. Ruegemer: Like I said these, if the commission would like to modify any of these rules, we certainly can do that at this time. Lash: Well...any fun anymore. Hoffman: Well that's in the sandy area. Then behind in the grass. 18 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: Well yeah, if kids are swimming and you're sitting in the sun and you can't have a can of pop when you're sitting? You'd have to get up and move to the grass to drink a can of pop. Ruegemer: I think what they're trying to do is just control litter. Lash: Then let's say keep litter off the beach. The other one, if any glass is broken. Well you already have a rule that says no glass is allowed, so we need to enforce the no glass rule, let alone they shouldn't be breaking it because it shouldn't be there to start with. And should I just go along and pick out every single one I don't like? Well number 3. I think of, I know when you're talking about swimming and you're talking about swimming inside buoys. Is that what you're talking about? At Lake Ann. So if people swim from another area of the lake and they're outside of the buoyed area, what are they going to do about it? Hoffman: They yell at them with a megaphone and they tell them that they are no longer within reach of the lifeguards. Lash: Okay, because they do that to me. But it doesn't stop me. Ruegemer: They're just trying to have a little bit of control. Lash: No, and but do you know how many people swim across Lake Ann? Lots of people swim across Lake Ann. Hoffman: It's always been a problem. Lash: And wherever they start, whether they start at the beach site. If they start at the beach side, they're going to drive the lifeguards crazy. And if they start at the other side and they swim over to the beach, they're going to drive the lifeguards crazy. Berg: But I think we want to keep this rule. That's not something we want to encourage. Lash: No, I know. I know but it's, again. Berg: People speed too but that doesn't make it legal. Or a good idea. Karlovich: ...floatation device outside though. Lash: And then can we say that no person shall enter the water or onto any public bathing beach unless fully clothed during daylight hours? ...no fun at the beach anymore. We'll have to have an aquatics park. I'm kidding on that one. But I do think the, I think number 1 is really hard, yeah. I think having a can of pop on the beach is not that big a deal. Karlovich: I read through that one and I felt like it would be violated. The bottles and children. My 4 year old walking around with a juice box in hand. 19 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Hoffman: Do you want to limit anything? Do you want to limit eating, smoking or drinking? Berg: I'd like to make the whole park a non smoking area but that's probably not going to go. Didn't we have that discussion a few years ago? Manders: That came up. Hoffman: I think it's the cigarette butts in the sand. Howe: That's obnoxious but if people can police their own cigarette butts. Lash: If they'd put them out, if they're laying there and they put it out and pick them up later. It's the lit ones that flicking them around and somebody stepping on a lit one. I just don't think we'll ever stop people from eating and drinking. Ruegemer: Take out the eating and the drinking and leave the smoking? Lash: I would just take out rule number 1 and then number 2, with the cigars and cigarettes, that's already mentioned there as far as not throwing, casting, or depositing lighted cigars and cigarettes. Hoffman: The one thing if you do limit smoking in an area, you create that non-smoking, smoking area which some people feel. Berg: I can see leaving the no smoking on the sandy beach in. We can make it a safety issue. We just don't want people burning their feet. I buy that one. Howe: I buy it. Berg: And I would emphasize the no glass in the area. Lash: I think actually number 1 could just be turned into no glass container which is a city or a beach rule anyway. Hoffman: Sounds to me like you'd better start formulating and voting on these niles because we're getting mixed rules. Berg: All over the place aren't we. Ruegemer: Should I go rule by rule? Hoffman: At least on the ones that they're not agreeing on. Berg: Best on the 13 we haven't agreed on. 20 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: Okay, number 1. Karlovich: Where does it say no glass in the sandy beach area? Berg: They're posted at all the parks. Lash: Is it posted? I mean it is a rule but, okay. Berg: I'd like to see us leave number 1 as no smoking on sandy beach areas. Lash: Or glass? Berg: Or if you want to make glass a separate item or reinforce it because it's already there. Manders: I can live with that. Lash: Number 2... No glass is allowed so I don't know if we say glass is broken. Manders: The word smith but what is the nails thing all about? Ruegemer: Actually the rules were, like I said, I think it was back, I'm not sure exactly. Manders: I was puzzled. Maybe like people are throwing nails out there or what's that? Or finger nails or? I didn't understand it. But that was my only wonder. Otherwise that's fine. Hoffman: Then we'll take out that, if any glass is broken. Lash: Which makes it sound like then it's allowed. Hoffman: Number 3 we either say exactly what it says there or you say if you do swim outside you're not going to be guarded. Lash: Which is really what it is. Hoffman: Correct. Lash: You really can't control it. What you're saying is, if you swim outside of it you're doing it at your own risk...happens. Manders: Sounds reasonable. Berg: I like that better. Hoffman: What do you like better? 21 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Berg: What Jan just said. If they're swimming outside, it's at their own risk. Howe: Does that mean that if you're swimming in the area with guards, you don't have any risk? Karlovich: What's the guard supposed to do? Hoffman: Let you go down. Karlovich: The guard say you can't swim outside. Manders: If you have kids out there... Moes: For 3 I think I like the statement that it should not swim outside of it. Designated areas will be marked. That I think probably is appropriate to state. To inform people. Lash: Could it be tacked on the end, swimmers outside of this area, so at least the lifeguards can say to kids the rule is you can't swim outside of the thing. That's all they have to say. Because kids wouldn't challenge that where professional swimmer type people who want to do a power swim would, aren't going to listen to the lifeguard anyway. They're going to go. Hoffman: It's something that I wonder if the conversations were opened up, if then we allow for to say at your own risk stuff. The majority of the people who swim across the lake do it outside of the normal hours. So they get in no conflict anyway. Ones that do it really irritates the lifeguards is when they leave the swimming area and swim out of it. Then they get all mad on their loud speaker. Those people who swim across, either swim into the beach area and they're yelling at them already when before they're getting there or else they swim across to the boat landing and they never say anything to them. Lash: But then if you swim across, they turn around and swim back. They freak twice. Okay, maybe we just want to leave it that way. You know any other way I suppose encourages people to break the rule if we say. Hoffman: Those people who violate just have to kind of decide how they're going to do it. Tony Schiller swims it every morning. Nobody ever...out and back and out and back. Lash: Okay, the floatation device, that's pretty standard I think. Number 5. Berg: You've just got a misspelling there. I assume it's no person shall swim or bathe. Lash: Number 6. Number 7. Basic. Number 8. Does anybody have a problem with any of the other ones? You're talking about getting down to nothing, right? Put your suit on. You're not talking about putting your shorts on over your suit. Problem with any of the others? Okay. Berg: What's 127 Why do we have 12 in there? 22 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Ruegemer: It's adopted. There's new rules and that type of thing. Interpret that to the lifeguards. Hoffman: Yeah I don't think the, it has nothing to do with the public does it? Lash: We don't really want to have to make up a bunch of signs with all this on do we? I think if the lifeguards know the rules and if somebody, if they challenge, say they have a copy to show and say here's the rules. Hoffman: We'll just hang that little board that's down there. Lash: Okay, there you go. I mean I don't want some kind of big engraved, have to do a big expensive sign. Yeah, okay. Hoffinan: Yeah, we don't want to make a $200.00 sign. Lash: Is there a motion then to approve these as? Berg: Do we want to take out 127 It's gone? Lash: Okay. Is there a motion to approve these as said? Moes: I move that we approve the Lake Ann beach rules as amended based on our conversation. Lash: Second? Howe: Second. Moes moved, Howe seconded to adopt the Lake Ann Beach rules as amended by the Park and Recreation Commission. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REPORTS: RECREATION PROGRAMS: EAST EGG CANDY HUNT EVALUATION. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Lash. We were down slightly this year with our numbers I think due to the 70% chance threat of rain that we had. We were very lucky and didn't experience any rain during the event so we were able to hold the event outside at the recreation center which was a high plus. That was very nice for the people that were out there for that. The Splatter Sisters again did a great job for us in the entertainment and I would book them again. They're really a tim group in getting the crowds involved with that and get the kids up there having a good time so they're really a fun group and definitely would have them back again. The Boy Scouts were back again for probably since it started I think they've been here the whole time. A Girl Scout troop helped out with being the bunnies and helping out with other types of activities with that so 23 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 it was really... The Rec Center really does lend itself to be a good location for that. If we can keep having the event outside. If it was going to rain that day, we just would have had it inside the gym .... with that so it feels nice having the Rec Center out there. Just in the, as a recommendation for 2000, again hold the event at the Rec Center. We can book those dates already. Right now if we'd like to do that. Maybe it might be time to change up the flyer a little bit. Maybe give it a new look. Keep it fresh with that. There's always a lot of commonly asked questions. Where are the restrooms? Where is the candy hunt? Where's the entertaimnent? I think I could have done a better job on maybe some signage. We just added the adaptive section. There's a new contract. Maybe it's time to look at an adaptive coloring contest section or other types of aspects for the contest itself and all of our special events for that matter. And then I think maybe it's time, the day of the political correctness maybe to lose the Easter part of it on the title of the event. Howe: Did someone complain about that? Ruegemer: No. No, not really at this point but I think the, being proactive. Maybe that's something that we should take a look at. That was really put for the commission's discussion really at this point and to see where, what you all thought about that as a commission. Have direction on that. Lash: Do you think somebody going to an Easter Egg hunt would complain because it's called an Easter Egg hunt? Ruegemer: I don't know. Lash: Do you think they would not come because it's called an Easter Egg hunt? Ruegemer: I just think that we have to be. Mander: Like a Christmas party, same thing. Lash: Do we call a Halloween Party? Hoffman: I don't consider that a religious holiday. Berg: Pagan holiday. Lash: Well a lot of people don't go for that. Berg: I think Easter is a season as much as it is a holiday for something like this and I don't think that we need to change it. Howe: I agree. I don't think we should change it. 24 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: I was wondering on your flyer exclude, listing the various start times for different age groups. Did you have problems with that? Ruegemer: We have in the past. This year, I don't recall anybody from that but. Hoffman: Sure we did. Ruegemer: Was there? Hoffman: The hunt was over by the time the last time was posted so those individuals who just brought their children to be at this age egg hunt, it was already done. Lash: Because didn't we do it the other way before? It seems like we did it the other way before and then we had problems because people came. You know it seems like you can't win. There's always going to be somebody who's timing. Hoffman: You say that you start at this time and be done with a time. Lash: Yeah, okay. But I think there were people who wanted to come just for the hunt and. Iqoffman: And wanted to know the time. Lash: The entertainment will be from here and here and then the hunt will start at this time. Ruegemer: Maybe we could do that too. The hunt will start at approximately 9:40 or something like that and go from. Lash: You must know how long the program's going to last, don't you? Ruegemer: Well we dictate, yeah. We can pretty much tell them however long we'd like to do that so. Lash: Did you get enough info for what you need Jerry? Okay. Thanks. It was great. You did a nice job. Ruegemer: Commissioners that helped out, I really appreciate all your efforts for that event. SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: 3 ON 3 BASKETBALL EVALUATION. Ruegemer: This is our third season with the 3 on 3 basketball is really easy to coordinate. Much easier than the 5 on 5 basketball that we've done in the past. I think the biggest thing is you don't have officials that we have to worry about and people self officiate their own leagues and it really seems to be working out good that way. Like in the past we have had, if you look through the evaluations, overwhelming response on that was scorekeeper, timekeepers. For obvious reasons that I listed in the memo, we've had some problems in the past with people...and that 25 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 sort of thing so I eliminated that this year and went to more a simpler type of a procedure for that. Obviously by judging them by the evaluations, maybe that wasn't so well received. I didn't want to put so much emphasize on scoring. More on getting out and playing the game. Maybe take some of that competitiveness out of it. I think you take that out of it, you have less problems and that was kind of the idea going into it. I still would, I think it still worked out good. You know having Tom Knowles, one of our, or our Recreation Center staff out there kind of staff the clock. Start the halves and whenever the time clock, he took care of that which I thought worked out very good that we didn't have to pay somebody to be there every week. Tom was there basically every week anyway working. He worked out good for us. I think maybe to take a look at it, I think what we can do, if they would like to incorporate some type ora point system. Come up with some type ora markers. Three point lines or some type ora key. It's difficult you know, if we played the long way we already would have the markers in place but we play half courts going the opposite way but I think that's something that we can take a look at and get incorporated into that. Satisfy the need. It's a growing program and I certainly would like to make improvements so teams keep wanting to come back so that would be my recommendation is look at that and that way if they would like to keep score, they can certainly keep score that way. Or we can look at other options too. All and all it was a pretty easy, manageable program. I wanted to cut out the time keeper, score keeper. Do that to generate more revenue, which we did do. Didn't have to pay people from week to week so I mean for a minimal program we did take in nice revenue on that so. And that's something that maybe we could take a look at maybe doing a fall season. We started this after about the second week in January. Maybe that's something if we started one in October and go to the first part of December. Do maybe a seven week program for that too so. Real easy to incorporate. Just a matter of booking the time at the Rec Center. Lash: Okay. Anyone with questions for Jerry about that? Moes: I was going to say I think, it sounded like the participants were excited and enjoyed the program. The issue seemed to all of a sudden jump to a score keeper but when you read it it's like well sometimes I played one. Sometimes I played two's and sometimes I played three's, which is what you're talking about so I think the consistent scoring methodology would probably solve the problem completely. The revenue stream as well. Lash: Anybody else? Karlovich: What would have to do to, so they could see where the three point line is? Ruegemer: Basically what I think what we could do is get some time of tape. Put it on...do that down at the Chaska Middle School when we did the 5 on 5 basketball league. I was always responsible for purchasing the tape and then I had a player put that down for us so that's something that we could incorporate. Karlovich: I play guard and it's easier for me to shoot a 3 pointer than to hit it from the line. You want the credit when you're not the tallest guy and you can't go up the middle. 26 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Manders: I think the other comment that came out a couple times is they would be willing to pay more to get a score keeper. ! don't know if that's necessarily worth it. I don't know how many of them would do that. Ruegemer: I did increase the fees this year. Manders: Just to give an opportunity to pay for it. Lash: But you said it was a hassle getting the people to show up and all of that, right? Ruegemer: ...Tom was, I mean Tom was a great asset to us out there. He was there every week. He set some programs...and he really could step in and just take over in those situations. A great benefit for us. Lash: So you try ironing out of the rules and then see what they say next year. Manders: I think it's a pretty good report compared to what, a year or two ago when they were. Lash: Wrestling and stuff. Manders: Yeah. Lash: Okay, sounds good Jer. Thanks. RECREATION CENTER REPORT. Hoffman: Big highlight is the number 5. The Big News. The Chanhassen Recreation Center will begin art exhibits in May of 1999. I think the art exhibits are booked out through December. So look for that. The wall hangers are in and they'll be placed this week and then they'll start in the next. Lash: You know one of the things that ! thought would be, that we could build off of this. I know it will take some coordination, would be to offer specific then classes that would coordinate with whatever it was so say in May we have the oil painting artists. However you call that person. Then have a class in oil painting. And then if we have ceramics...build some interest. SENIOR CENTER REPORT. Hoffman: Kara's got a report. I think the best news about the Senior Center is they've got a Hawaii trip in February of 2000 that is fully booked I think at about 35 people. Hawaii for what, 15 days for $1,700.00 and they.just have to buy your food. Moes: Do they need chaperones for that? 27 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: Designated drivers? Hoffman: Then on the back there's some noted changes on the Senior Commission has new members, Jean Mancini, Tom Faust and Mel Kurvers. If you know any of those people. And then the Advisory Board has new members. Clara Pylka, Albin Olson, or excuse me. Clara, Naomi Moe, Fred Prinz, Mel Herrmann, Adey Skluzacek. Berg: You know you're getting old in the community when you start recognizing these are former parents of friends you used to have. PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE. Hoffman: Park and trail employees are irritable right now because they're over worked. Dean was nice enough to write me this report but they've got a lot of activity going on and then we hit them up every day with vandalism. Every day. Every single day. We get calls from the community. Today it was profanity and racial slurs on the picnic tables at Meadow Green so we need to get down there and haul the picnic tables. The day before it was glass at Lake Susan in the pavilion and playground so, something every day we're out chasing around in addition to their regular job. Berg: Does it seem more so than usual or is it spring time and they're feeling their oats? Hoffman: Same pattern but more than usual. Carver County's picked up on it. City Council's picked up on it. City Council wanted some action. Carver County did a stakeout, night watch at Lake Ann. They didn't make any contacts that particular evening. Bob Zydowsky, Public Safety official has instructed all of the CSO's and the Carver County's to shake people down after 10:00. If you're in one of the park areas after 10:00, you're not only going to get stopped, you're going to get taken apart. And they're considering doing a motion detector and a surveillance camera at Lake Ann so when you drive up, the detector sets off the camera and the camera starts recording so. Lash: Sad. Hoffman: We spent a lot of time on it and these are every day kids that live in your neighborhoods so. ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS: RON ROSER~ MAPLE LEAF AWARD PRESENTATION. Lash: That's going to be on the l0th, right? Hoffman: May l0th. City Council meeting. That same night by the way, I told some of the commissioners. We have a youth resident off of Lake Lucy Lane who has developed a petition for a skate park. That petition's from residents, from the business owners, a financial plan and a 28 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 fund raising plan for the skate park. He asked how many people he could bring to the Council chambers and I said well I think it will hold about 200 and he said they'll be there so we'll wait and see. Lash: Any idea when on their agenda the Ron thing will be? Hoffman: Well that will be right... Ron will be up first and then the visitor presentation will be next so that might be a good one to see if you can take the time. Lash: 6:30? Hoffman: 6:30. And then we hope to be, have Ron back in here in May just to say farewell. JOINT MEETING WITH CITY COUNCIL. Hoffman: On the schedule it's June 5th. Or lst, excuse me. It's currently scheduled at 6:30. Lash: 6:30. Hoffman: And if that holds true, we'll be there. Otherwise these things move around. Lash: That's a Tuesday? Hoffman: June 1st, is that a Tuesday? Lash: So it's not a normal meeting night for them? Berg: Yeah, I guess Monday would be the holiday, wouldn't it? Hoffinan: Oh, that's right, yep. Lash: Oh sure. Do we have already agenda items or do they have agenda items or what's the plan? Hoffman: You have your agenda items that have already been forwarded to them. Lash: So we have an hour. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS: Howe: Somebody asked, looking at the last Minutes, about the race. I called her back and she was waiting for me to call her. This is at least 2 or 3 months ago and I had a tentative okay to continue to explore it but I said then it was getting late and we probably wouldn't be able to have one this year. And I haven't heard from her since so I will call her back but I don't think it's 29 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 going to be this year but she was just waiting for me to say that. She admitted that she had kind of put it off. Lash: So when would you really have to get going on it though for it to happen next year? Howe: When, 2000? I don't think, I think you could probably, if you started talking about it again late '99, I think you could probably, you've got to be up and running. You've got to be up and going. Lash: By the first of the year? Howe: Yes. I think by February or March. You'd have to have your plans laid if you wanted to have it in September or so. Lash: Did we ever come up with really when? Howe: I think it depended a lot. Lash: Did we ever find out when Dave's birthday was? Hoffman: I don't recall. I talked to Cathy about it. She loved the idea so. Lash: It'd be nice to hook it in with his birthday if it just happened to be spring or the fall or something when. Howe: So that's what the story is on that. Lash: Okay. Dave, do you have anything? Fred? Berg: No. I'm actually progressing with the names however, with the research for the signs. We're actually moving in a direction now. Lash: Jay's not on a committee so we'll correct that fairly soon. Jim? Have anything? Manders: Actually just a comment about, you know the race thing. It would seem to me as far as identifying a time, the biggest issue is all the competitive times. Whether it's bike races or other runs. To see if we couldn't identify what those other times are and to say when would this most reasonably fit because if you're trying to do this when Chaska's doing something or Eden Prairie's doing something. We may find out that there's only these two or three options and pick that. Otherwise, was this 200 people thing, was that about this skate park thing? Hoffman: Yes. Manders: Because I was just going to say about some of these comments in this administrative packet I thought were. 3O Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: ...ahead. Manders: You haven't, oh. Well I'll get you. Lash: You're jumping the gun. I'll get you there in a minute. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Lash: Do we have commission member presentations? Mike? Dave? Fred? Jay? Berg: I had a question. I don't know if it's the appropriate time. Todd, how are we doing on the trails? Specifically Powers Boulevard. Are you going to talk about that? Hoffman: No. I can give you an update on that. We met yesterday with the contractor, Midwest Asphalt. Three of their representatives came in. They assigned yet another foreman to the project so that is our fourth foreman on the project in a year. Last year we had late in the year it was attempting to get, squeeze more out of the city than he reasonably should have attempted to be doing and not talking to his supervisor back at the office so we weren't getting anywhere last fall so. And Midwest, the supervisor from Midwest didn't appreciate that either. So he brought in new pricing. Took that individual offthe job. There's a new foreman. They will start on Powers Boulevard very soon. They recognize it as a high visibility site. They have a high degree of ownership in seeing that it's completed and they see and replace that wall that was damaged in the watermain break as soon as next week. Later part of next week. It will take two days to fix it. Then they will clean out the aggregate that's been intermixed with the soils. Top dress their aggregate and with the paving machine, pave it and do the restoration. Then they will start on Bluff Creek after Powers is done. Manders: Has there been much problem or issue with the trails, how they're put in as far as diking water back? Hoffman: In some areas, yeah that's. Manders: How was that addressed? Hoffman: Well the area, the most prominent area in all the trails will be right there, we call it the moat right along the townhomes on Powers Boulevard. So that's going to be a difficult site. Has minimal slope. Manders: Because you have that sloping down now, are you going to have a pond down there or how's that...? Hoffman: Yep. No, we don't want a pond. Right now it ponds because the grades aren't set but once the grades are set. We're also proposing to the City Council that we include $5,000.00 31 Park and Rec Meeting ~ April 27, 1999 worth of drain tile in there to get that water out from behind the trail and get it underneath and into the drainage so. Manders: Exactly, because that could be a tough spot. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Lash: Okay, under the administrative packet. What'd you have there Jim? Manders: Well I was just going to say, some of these kids that wrote in, it's good to see that they want to get involved. Lash: Jay, did you have anything on the administrative packet? Karlovich: No. Lash: Fred? Berg: Nothing. Lash: Mike. Howe: No. Lash: Did you have anything Todd? Hoffman: We continue to receive letters on the skate park so it's, have more at my office today. It's the biggest grass roots initiative that we've seen in quite some while so it will be interesting to see how it goes on the 10th. Manders: So the thought is where that would go is where? Hoffman: Out here on the asphalt. Manders: Part of the hockey rink thing or separate skate park? Hoffman: The skate park would take all the hockey rink area in the summer and then we would take the skate park away during the winter and put up hockey boards. Berg: I've got kids giving me tapes of what they'd like to see so. Hoffman: Drop them off. Berg: I'I1 drop them off if they're suitable. 32 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Lash: Also that would be a good project for the wood shop. projects. For those kids that are looking for Berg: They're not. Lash: Yeah they are. They have to go in there, it'd cost a fortune if we provided some of the materials and they did the labor. Berg: They're not looking for projects. Lash: Give them projects to do and then they end up making something stupid that you can't use at your house anyway and you have to pay $75.00 for it. I've been burnt twice. Hoffman: The majority of the public skate parks are not made out of wood. They're made out of metal for long term maintenance. Some are made out of wood but then you're replacing them in _~ to 5 years. Berg: I knew that. I didn't want to hurt your feelings. Lash: You're right and I'm a fool. Hoffman: Yeah, these things are not cheap and I have, by the reaction of this individual who I talked to, when i said that the City Council has approved $15,000.00 in seed money, about choked and ! think he thinks plywood and you kmow back yard design stuff and he could buy all the wood and plywood they ever needed for $15,000.00. But I don't think it would be responsible of the city to allow the construction of those types of jumps and ramps and then put it out here and then a year, 18 months from now everybody says, well those things are busted. Where are the new ones? You know these large parks that are constructed professionally are anywhere from 40 to 80, $150,000.00 worth of equipment. Lash: So you said this one kid had contacted businesses, right? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: ...signed a petition? Hoffman: I guess, yep. Haven't seen it yet. I don't know if he's asked for money. Lash: I wouldn't have a problem with having, putting advertising... Hoffrnan: Says he has a financial plan. Lash: Okay. Anybody have anything else? Okay, motion to adjourn. 33 Park and Rec Meeting - April 27, 1999 Manders moved, Berg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 34