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Joint Meeting with City CouncilPARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING January 20, 1987 Park and Recreation Commissioners Present: Michael Lynch, Michael Rosenwald, Curt Robinson, Susan Boyt and Jim Mady. City Council Members Present: Councilman Geving, Councilman Horn, Councilman Johnson and Mayor Hamilton. Councilman Boyt was not present at the meeting. Staff Members Present: Don Ashworth and Lori Sietsema. Mayor Hamilton: This is one of those meetings that is long overdue. We need to do this from time to time at least so we can keep working in the same direction. Not to say that we haven't but I think there is something we can do 'to try and get it to work a little more smoothly together. I think Park and Rec Commission has talked about having a person attend Council meetings. I'm not sure where you're at on that but I know that you've talked about it and hopefully that is something that you will do. You probably don't need to do it unless there is something on the Council agenda that pertains specifically to the Park and Rec Commission so we can ask for your input...if there is someone there who can answer. There are several Commission positions that are up for reappointment and two people have resigned. We should talk with the three of you whose terms are expiring. We have received one application, potential other so we are making progress. Hopefully one will follow through. With that I guess we will get to the Agenda to the Park and Recreation Commission Goals and Objectives. Are you going to go through some of this Lori or did you want to do part of this Mike? Lori Sietsema: Probably Mike and Jim were the ones that came up with the goals. They might want to just go ahead and outline what they've come up with. Mayor Hamilton: I think I'll just preface anything before we start by saying that the object of having this meeting is so the Park and Rec Commission can get a feel for where the Council is on some issues and visa versa. We need to know what type of things Park and Rec is looking at. Where you think you want to see us end up all the way down the road and of course, we feel the same way so just an exchange of ideas for Chanhassen. The Council just thought we could get together and exchange some thoughts and ideas. Mike Lynch: Tom mentioned it but one of us on a rotational basis to attend a Council meeting because that is something you guys would like to see. Would it be useful? Councilman Geving: That's a yes. Mike Lynch: We do that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mayor Hamilton: When there are items on the agenda that deal specifically with Park and Rec Commission or you can come to a meeting anytime. Mike Lynch: Does a piece ever arise when there is something not on the agenda but you would... Councilman Geving: Rarely. Mike Lynch: You mean if you get a camp or something like that is coming? Councilman Geving: We know when the items are coming. It is rare that an item of Park and Rec would come up that wouldn't be on the agenda or that we even discuss. Mayor Hamilton: For instance, the Planning Commission has some of their own thoughts and probably 99 times out of 100 we'll always ask them to give us their comments on whatever issue it is we're discussing because we want to know what happened at their Commission meeting and it is always helpful. Councilman Geving: Feel free to jump in. Mayor Hamilton: If I don't see you and we've got a big crowd there, be sure to stand up and wave and holler... Mike Lynch: The second item, the subject of surveys is something we're trying to look into further and put some sort of package together for you that will say this is the kind of survey that is recommended by professionals. This is what is involved. This is how much it costs. This is what we want to get out of it. One thing I did want to kick in there, I'm not sure if we got it in down the line but when you all first discussed that, we noticed when we read the Minutes, you may not have noticed it during your conversation but it was apparent when we read the Minutes that it was unanimous among the Council that they felt there was a real lack of awareness among the residents that the park system was even there and one of my notes to myself was to ask you guys if you think that is something important that we should tackle? We have a nice park system, it's getting better. If we have an awareness problem, that is something we should address. Councilman Geving: I think we did a good job this year with the signage on the parks and I think we also did an excellent job with the South Shore News. There were several issues devoted almost entirely to Park and Rec items and I think the issue I saw, 15 or 20 items spread over a couple of different pages and I thought that was excellent and that goes to every citizen or that particular issue did so I thought that was a good awareness issue. If you continue that and make sure that we get it, at least a couple times a year. Lori Sietsema: Every season I try to put out a Park and Recreation brochure within the South Shore Weekly that has new programs and the seasonal things that the CAA is doing and that kind of thing. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mayor Hamilton: You always want to do as much communicating and make everybody as aware of everything that is available in the City as we possibly can especially in a community that is young and growing like Chanhassen is. You run into a lot of problems, specifically people who just plain don't care and that becomes fairly frustrating after a while. think Clark, Dale and I have been on the Planning Commission and Council now for many years and I think a lot of our efforts have been directed towards trying to get people involved and become more aware of their community. It really is a frustrating process because people just don't care. They don't care unless something happens in their backyard and then all of a sudden they know everything that's going on but I think it's an ongoing situation and that we want to continue to deal with all the time. How we do it I guess is through surveys or whatever as long as they can be beneficial and so forth. Mike Lynch: If anyone comes up with anything new. It works with some of them that read the South Shore. A lot of times the first time folks know that there is a park is when they inquire about soccer or something and there is this beautiful park down there. Councilman Johnson: There's really an effort to organize Homeowner's Association here that I've heard of where they are going to get a broad base association, homeowners association and that may become a good communication for the city and then some groups that don't have ~-~ orgranization... Mayor Hamilton: Associations. We utilize that a lot now. We always contact Homeowners Councilman Horn: I think one of the toughest jobs is maintaining the balance between acquiring more land and spending the money that we have versus developing what you have. I've heard complaints on both sides of that issue and whatever you do is always going to be wrong to some people. I th~nk that is one of the toughest jobs to determine is how fast do we /~d~,v~/~ what we have.,~ //~C/~n~ilman Geving: The other issue too is the make-up of the Park and Res ~ /ommittee itself. It was a lot of times concerned about trails. We had a couple gals on the Park and Rec a few years ago that were real crazy about trails and a lot of things at the expense of, what I thought were important to me at least because I was just going through sports programs. There was a hockey program and a lot of those things so you see that from time to time and I know that all of us are different and we all have our different ideas what a Park and Rec Commission should be. I think it all comes back to individuals that are on it so you aren't all trying to do one thing but spread out and do a whole lot of different things. I don't know how you get to do that other than you're own individual interest and why you are on the Park and Rec Commission to begin with. Sue Boyt: I think that is what we want to use the survey for is to get away from our own personal interests and find out what the interests of the Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 community are. Trails might be important to me but not to Chanhassen so if it's not to Chanhassen, I'll drop it. Councilman Horn: I think it's important too to get people in various stages of life. We get some people on whose kids are already grown up and left and get some people on who don't have kids yet and those with young people plus the geographical thing. I know on the Planning Commission we were trying to get people who lived in different areas. As the Council we don't have that perspective at all. We're right here so I think it is really important to have commissions who give their presentations from people all around the City. Sue Boyt: If they would apply. Mike Lynch: We've done that when we've had a choice but we haven't always had a choice. Curt Robinson: And we haven't had much continuity either. I think I'm one of the older members at a year and half that I've been on the Park and Rec Commission so there's turnover and it takes a long time to learn so that's a problem for us. Mike Lynch: Now as far as the trail plan, we are embarking on a program with Mark in conjunction with our Metro Plan, the Master Plan. Where the trail system should go versus where we thought it would go 5 to 6 years ago. How does the Council feel in general about a trail program? I think you know that we have a few little pieces here and there. We now have enough right-of-way that have connected enough developments where those right-of-ways are and so forth and that is our general thinking of the Commission that we can make a start towards development. For example things like, is it going to be wood chip? Is it going to be asphalt? What is the maintenance like? What does it cost to put it in? All these kind of things. Is one use going to get used more than the other but the trail system concept as a whole is going to be a major expenditure when we start doing it. How do you guys feel about it? Is it something that you, everybody's got opinions. You don't think we're large enough yet to start doing it or is it something you want to look at now? Councilman Geving: My feeling is if you don't have a comprehensive trail plan laid out now, as we're developing, it will be too late later on. We want to be able to acquire the land. It will be filled in with houses and the plan that shows the trail will never exist so we're at a stage now where we just can't look back. We have to look ahead and put that trail on maps so when we make decisions at the Council level, we can provide the developer with this and say, that area right there is where the trail is going to connect to another park trail. For example, in my case, I always dreamt, maybe it's a look at Minneapolis' park plan, that we could have a circular walking path around Lake Ann for example. That's always been a dream of mine or at least some of the lakes because we have such amenities there that if we could just pick up a couple more pieces that are out there, we could do that. There aren't very many pieces that we have to put Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 together just to make that but for the community I think it is extremely important that we lay out that trail plan and proceed to acquire the pieces to put it together, now. Mike Lynch: That's kind of what we're looking at too. Mayor Hamilton: I agree. I don't think you can have a community as young as we are developing and not have a plan. If you wait until some years down the road, it will never happen at all but I think, being a realist, I can't ever conceive that we're going to have a trail around any of the lakes, all the way around. There is just too much property that is gone and owned by individuals who aren't going to sell at this point but I'm all in favor of having a trail as long as it begins someplace and ends someplace without breaks in between and you can actually go from Point A to B and get back to where you started from and have it be a nice trail. But if you start at A and end at B, then you have to figure some way to get back or go back the same way, I'm not sure I would be in favor of a trail like that. Mike Lynch: Two major reasons for having the trail Tom, are to gain access to certain major community neighborhood parks, around neighborhoods that don't have a safe way to get there and then the touring aspect and things we would like to connect. A good connection would be Eden Prairie trail systems and things like that. We talked a little about that a couple of years ago but you have to look at all those funny little answer. Mayor Hamilton: The nice thing is, if we were to connect with Eden Prairie, that means you can get to Hopkins and lots of Minnetonka where we can be connected to them and have it go someplace in Chanhassen, those people would be coming out here too and connecting with our trails. Councilman Johnson: Trails that cut all the way through to Carver Park whatever, through Victoria there, that would be great eventually. If somebody could bike from Hopkins all the way out to Carver Park. Mike Lynch: There's no reason why eventually we can't do that. Councilman Horn: It seems to me that if it was practical, they're going to have to come up with a different trail medium than asphalt. If you've ever used Eden ?rairie's trails, they are in terrible shape and they're not that old so your comment about maintenance is well taken. We are not at all to the point where we can afford an asphalt top or maintain it. Sue Boyt: I think that's where we need to talk to a professional. Councilman Horn: There has to be a better approach than asphalt and I don't know what it is. I guess I've never seen it but I don't think that's real practical and a lot of cities are finding that out. They put them in and they're great for a year or so and pretty soon. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mike Lynch: We talked about chips of course, and Dale Gregory can tell you what the maintenance on that's like. Basically yearly plus you can't ride a bike on it and the red rock develops.., of washouts so I don't know if there is a magic answer but we'll have to look at it. Mayor Hamilton: Just as a side note, I disagree with that point. Friends that I have, they take a bike trek every year from Chanhassen to Minneapolis, Nicollet Island or someplace by the University, basically on bike trails or sidewalks. They hardly ever have to get off the path. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to start at the other end and come out here too. Councilman Johnson: It can be a combination like we do with the streets. We have major arterials and collectors and whatever. The trail system could be the same. The trail around Chan pond, you don't need asphalth. That is probably going to be a wood chip or something like that trail for walking, not for biking. One designated for biking might be different. That's the type of general thing I would like to see in the plan. I'm personally very much for trails and how it connects to parks, schools. Mayor Hamilton: It could be tied in with our Fourth of July celebration, a bike trek through Chanhassen. Even advertise in St. Paul. Bike to Chanhassen for... Mike Lynch: How does the Council stand as far as, we get on a little bit with a trail, we find a place where we're going to need or in the process of redoing our Master Plan we find out a park deficient area or we find a place that looks as though it is going to be developed somewhat in five years and there seems to be a specific nice piece of ground there for a park, is there any interest in the Council for prepurchase? Mayor Hamilton: We can take a look at it. Councilman Geving: I think we have to be open. If it is an especially nice piece that you would recommend for future park. Mike Lynch: ask. We don't know. These are some of the questions we need to Councilman Johnson: It would have saved a few problems earlier this year if we had prepurchased the other side of the pond. Sue Boyt: We better not get into that Jay. Councilman Johnson: No, I'm just saying it's a good idea. Councilman Geving: We never really have looked ahead. We never have looked ahead to preacquisition of land. The only time we ever acquired the land, other than Lake Ann Park, there may be some exceptions to this, is when there has been a development and we've been able to pull off a piece just for the Park people. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mike Lynch: Sometimes we've been approached. Councilman Horn: You can find these things when a development comes up and they have to be well in place long before that. Sue Boyt: That's what we're working on... Jim Mady: We also need to know what we want to use it for. Sue Boyt: And will that be a point that he can use to negotiate? Will our land be negotiated away if that is something we wanted for our trails? Mayor Hamilton: That plus if an area is designated as park deficient, the developer should know that. That he knows when he goes in there and develops it, he probably is going to be asked for some land. Councilman Geving: When you say negotiated away, I don't understand that. Mike Lynch: Could it be used as a bargaining chip. Sue Boyt: If he builds bigger lots then he doesn't have to give as much park land. That's not in the 10 points or 12 points. Councilman Horn: I don't think we should propose that change be negotiated in the future. It's in the plan, it's in the plan. Councilman Geving: Hopefully we can maintain an aggressive posture on that and that is part of the plan but in addition to what is already there, we might want more because it's being developed. Based on the type of development and how it is being developed. If somebody comes in with something that we had planned on, and it's going to be high density, we'll stick to our guns and double the park size. Mayor Hamilton: ...specific amount, as far as negotiating, there is only 2% going in favor of bigger lots. Sue Boyt: That's what we were talking with Mark about was developing a sliding scale depending on the density of the development. You can't always ask for the same thing and have it be reasonable. Councilman Johnson: Parks are something that we're going to have forever. You look at the developments that are going in down south now. They are all going to be 2 1/2 acres but eventually those are going to be redeveloped when the MUSA line goes down and if you are planning a park based on everybody has 2 1/2 acres so everybody has a huge lot in the first place, so you don't need much park, when that gets resubdivided we become park deficient. We start throwing 1,500 square foot lots in there. Sue Boyt: that way. But from what I've heard the attorney say, we can't go at it in We have to be reasonable to start. Reasonable to start maybe Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 doesn't mean looking at development 20 years down the line when they split the lots. Councilman Horn: Ail these areas will be looking at putting parks in... The type of thing to use is flood plain areas like that that aren't useful for other things and still have good amenities. Mike Lynch: We've been discussing quite a bit of that, just south of the line because let's say they all have 10 acre lots. There still reaches a point where you are going to need, for instance a ballfield down there because everybody down there is going to have to go all the way to Lake Ann or here. Just because they have a 10 acre lot doesn't mean they should have to ride 10 miles to get to a ballfield so there are certain things that you might have to put in even if they never are going to be more densely built up. One of the items here was the possibility of separately located or active play facility and community center concept. Jim was telling me tonight now that there is a recommendation out that a Commission be formed. Mayor Hamilton: That Commission is being formed. It already has members. Sue Boyt: Maybe it would be a good idea to have a Park and Rec Commissioner on there. Mayor Hamilton: Yes, somebody from the Park and Rec. Councilman Geving: That's natural. Councilman Johnson: We said that last Monday night. Mayor Hamilton: It will be a member from each Commission going into it plus three at large. I would prefer just one but they may have three up there. I'm just thinking of keeping the Commission small so you can accomplish something. You start getting 7 to 8 people and you start to have problems. Councilman Johnson: The Commission is not stuck on CHADDA and the downtown redevelopment concept of community center. It is the broad brush of what does the community need for a community center and it doesn't necessarily have to be downtown. The motion or whatever it said was it's going to be a broad brush, what does the City need for a community center? Where is the best place and what do we need like a survey and stuff? Councilman Horn: Not everybody is convinced that we're all that deficient on say hockey rinks. Councilman Geving: Maybe there is someone here tonight that's interested. Mayor Hamilton: Bill Boyt was appointed from the Council and Pat Swenson will be appointed at large. I told Pat that she was... Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Geving: Yes, she didn't want to. We talked her into it. Mayor Hamilton: is interested. So it's up to your Commission to appoint someone who Mike Lynch: When will they start meeting? Mayor Hamilton: Very soon. Lori will be the Staff person. Councilman Geving: But there are no side boards on this as Jay said. It could be anywhere in the community and any facility that you feel is necessary in that community center. It's wide open. Whether it's swimming, hockey, running tracks, gymnastics, whatever so we're not locked into any concept. The concept is whatever the City needs. We don't want to get locked into anything, otherwise there is no reason for the Commission. Mike Lynch: One of the long term things we're going to look into, we're going to see if it's at all possible for us to develop some kind of a touch tone guideline path for when and if the City will begin taking over some of the active programs that have been handled by private groups like the CAA and the Hockey Association. I think by talking with some other fully developed areas, like Eden Prairie and Plymouth, a lot of that has happened in their areas in the last 10-15 years where it finally got too big or the City felt it was too big or somebody felt the program was too big and they said, alright it's time to go so there are indicators there someplace and we don't know what they are. Whether it's the number of kids in the program or the number of other pressures on a facility but those people should be able to tell us that and come up with some sort of a format plan or ideas and send it up to you and say, these are the things we're going to be watching for so don't be surprised if we send a recommendation for a person to do scheduling. Councilman Geving: I'll give you a for instance tonight. We have Rick Friedlander and Mary Johnson over at the Dinner Theater and there was to be a 7:00 seating and there were only two people there. It's hard to get people. Sue Boyt: Some of us are here. Three of us. Councilman Geving: Even so. There's not the public. Curt Robinson: When I was on the CAA, it was right after you were, we said we didn't want the City involved because we didn't get approval. If we decided to do something now, we're going to do it and not wait for it to get up to the City Council and they kick it around and come back and ask some questions so it worked both ways I think and I'm not sure how they are meeting right now. Sue Boyt: That's the feeling now too. 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Curt Robinson: They are really active from what I understand right now. Mike Lynch: Personally, I don't think that it's up to the CAA, everybody gets tired of being on the CAA and the Council says, okay city, here it is. If we're not at the proper development point, we're going to have to say, guys we just may not have the programs because the City Staff is not sufficient to handle this. We're not going to do it just because you don't want to. We don't want...but there will be a certain time when logistically speaking and number of kids and number of facilities and a lot of other things. Maybe insurance pressures, as they build, they're going to get worse and worse, it may get to the point where you may have to do these things. Anyway, we're going to be looking at that. Mayor Hamilton: That point will come when Lori gets so loaded down, which she probably is already, she can't... It's either going to mean getting someone to work with Lori doing those types of things or tell the CAA that they have to go to another group. I suspect it will be the former. We'll probably get some assistance for Lori. Mike Lynch: More of the items I had down here, from my notes, methods of interface with Council to clarify proposals, insure intent, prevent misunderstanding, and convey depth of preparation. I discussed some of these things with Tom the other night when we had our interview and my personal feeling is that sometimes in the past, our motions have not contained enough information to convey what we were really trying to do or the depth of feeling that we had about a certain item or the depth of research that we had done. It just says we recommend you do this and you have very little way of knowing what we did to come up with that. Whether we stuck our thumb up in the air to see which way the wind was blowing or whatever so we're going to have, I think, start tacking on some substantial information on projects, clarifying what our viewpoint was. Non-motion type information. We'll try not to make it pages and pages so you don't get bogged down in that stuff. Mayor Hamilton: I think one of the things you need to do along the way is to have the meeting recorded, if you're not already and have someone type them so Lori doesn't have to sit there and try to, so we see more of the verbatim. Don Ashworth: That is a problem in terms of secretarial servicing goes back a long time. You recall that. You would think that you could get a high school student that would be willing to come in and pay good money for that type of service. We'll advertise 4 or 5 times and not get one answer. Curt Robinson: On the City Council Minutes on that survey, all we were trying to do was gat some thoughts accrued to have somebody help us and boy, you spent a lot of time talking about it and I think it was just a misunderstanding that you didn't know what, you didn't have all the information I guess or that we knew at the time or something was misunderstood because you spent much too long on that. Longer than you should have. 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Johnson: When somebody is talking about something, they've got a lot on their mind that they don't actually say. All the members have heard previous stuff so they'll say something and when we read it it doesn't mean a darn thing to us because we're missing a few facts and figures so we read Minutes and it doesn't make sense unless you were at the meeting and heard the inflection of it so the presentation given, if you have something that is going to be a major concern, a survey or whatever, a member actually be present to answer some questions and clarify that. Mayor Hamilton: When I think of that particular issue, there was probably misunderstanding on both sides. I think the Council, the problem to discuss an issue like that that was brought before us and all we were trying to do was clarify and solidify our position back to the Park and Rec. It wasn't that we were criticizing it. We all thought it was a good idea merely in how it was going to be done and since it was there, we took the time to talk about it and to give some input on it. All we were trying to do was give some input so in going back to the Park and Rec Commission, you can see where we were at and you took it then that we were tearing it apart and criticizing it and hammering it down your throats and that wasn't the intent at all. Mike Lynch: I don't think it was that so much. We hadn't even decided the direction yet for it to go and we looked through the Minutes that you were already looking, where is their direction. Like Curt said, we weren't near ,- as far as you thought we were I think. Councilman Horn: We saw a sample ballot already in our packet. Mike Lynch: That was a misunderstanding. Councilman Horn: My concern with any kind of poll is that I certainly couldn't write a poll that would give me any kind of answers that I can do anything with and most people can't unless you are really trained to do that sort of thing. My concern was that we would give us something and spend some effort on something that wouldn't result in anything. My only point was I feel we should have somebody who is schooled in that sort of thing to get the answers. Sue Boyt: That's what we were trying to ask for. Mike Lynch: We needed to look at our area and say, for the kind of area you have, different type of neighborhood mixes, this is the way you go about surveying. Whether it is percentage or door to door or everybody or whatever and this is the kind of survey and these are the kind of questions. We expect we will talk to a professional, this is what we want to know. You tell us what we have to do to get it and that's basically what you'll get out of it. Councilman Horn: I think that was most of our discussion. 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mike Lynch: We didn't have a whole lot of ideas at that time. One of the items here that I showed Tom that may or may not be useful to you guys but it is going to be useful to us I think is we're going to catalog the parks and one sheet on each park. If you want to have one of these to have at Council meetings in case somebody asks a question or a developer says what is this piece of property next to me? What's this lik~ You can run them off a copy. It will have a park name, location, what's in it now, this will just be reissued once a year. I'll do it myself. Comments. For instance, Herman Field doesn't have an access. Little things like that. Current budgeted items. This park doesn't have one. That's been a part of West Jr. High so it's any property we're currently using as parkland. There will be some comments for us to use during our meetings on the back and then we'll have a small map here so this is basically for us to keep our information straight and all in one place. We're just like you. We have too many pieces of paper to keep all the information straight and know what is updated on current parks by City Council so it will give us a ready reference and we can look back and see what we've got without carrying 6 inches of paper around. Councilman Horn: It seems like we used to get something like that at our yearly budget meeting on park allocation. Didn't you used to give us a list of all those parks and projects? Mike Lynch: Ail we had was the budgeted items. This is a combination of the Master Plan, to take off the Master Plan, the budgeted expenditures for next year, a number of small letters that have gone. I started out with about this much goodies and condensed it into 1/4 inch of pages so you saw bits and pieces of this like we do but to look at them in a meeting and somebody will have a matter that a friend lives on another park, someone wil say, can we have a whatyoumacall it approved for that? You start digging and Lori, what do you remember and what do you remember and you never remember the same thing and you can't find the right piece of paper but it's just information to gather. One reason is, like Curt says, we have a lot of numbers and it will help. When we have a new memorandum, we can say here's the park and here's the primary current information on the park. Mayor Hamilton: Something like that, like Clark was saying, would be great for the Chamber to hand out with their packet of information that goes out. At least the major parks. Say here's the park, this is the equipment that's there, ...have it all on there and it would be great. Sue Boyt: Does the Chamber still charge for that packet? Mayor Hamilton: No. Sue Boyt: A couple months ago. We called and we tried to get a list of the businesses in town and they said there was charge. It's a minimal charge. Mayor Hamilton: That's something else then. That is something that they 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 have to charge for but the packet of information they give out, they let you have the maps and that sort of thing. We want to give it to all the developers and builders so they can give it to the people who are perspective buyers of homes. They're looking at updating that down at the Chamber so if anybody is interested in doing that, contact the Chamber. Councilman Johnson: You see the things in travel brochure about State Parks and they have a whole list of items across the top of the parks and below they have it checked off. Your whole top section there is optimum for that. Mike Lynch: We're out of context here but to start talking about the Chamber, would it pay for the City to print a small brochure on our parks? Do we all vote for the Welcome Wagon, new business type of an operation where you are going to use those? The realtors could certainly use them. That's another propaganda method. Mayor Hamilton: I think it's something we could consider. Mike Lynch: We could condense this to a nice, little 3 x 8, three page fold out type of thing with a picture of Lake Ann on the front and a grid of parks and what facilities are available. Mayor Hamilton: I guess a part of the survey is that you could ask the same question of that person, how do we get the information out to the public? Do a survey but then we also want them to know about all the parks we have, the facilities that are available and where they are and what's the best. Councilman Horn: What do you mean by off street parking? a central parking lot in the park? Do mean there is Mike Lynch: all it is. Or the street is widened specifically, in some cases that's Councilman Geving: There is on Meadow Green isn't there? off the road on Meadow Green? You can pull up Mayor Hamilton: There is a parking lot. Mike Lynch: In some places we have 4 or 5 slots. Carver, that little park where they kind of pull o~ the street. What we mean by off street parking basically is where there is no no parking signs. You can just pull up and park. In the case of Carver Beach, there is no park period. Okay, so we'll look at a park brochure along the line someplace for a reasonable cost. We've already talked about advance land purchase. The next item was really for us and not for you. We discussed this already. Jim and I doubled up on some of these things. Project and lay some ground rules for eventual City Staff assumption of all organized new and existing youth and adult activities. We discussed that a little. Trail system development. Something we have bantered back and forth quite a bit and that's a citizen 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 group would be interested in and something that will have to addressed in Mark's survey is the widened road concept of trail. Where you make a road a little wider versus... Councilman Geving: How do you feel about that? Mike Lynch: We kind of have mixed feelings as Staff does. Councilman Geving: From my perspective, sitting on the Council, some of the places where we've done it, it was about the only way we could get enough road to put at least a trail in and if we hadn't done what we did, the people would be walking in the street. Mike Lynch: Look at it this way, in some cases you have to. other place... There is no Councilman Geving: ...we said, if we just widened the road another 4 feet or 6 feet, at least we could stripe it and people could walk there. Mike Lynch: In other cases, it may be appropriate. You may have a choice but it may be such a low use automobile to say, well it's cheaper, it will work nice, let's do it. In some other cases, that's the third one where you can do either one and you get right down to a toss up on it and you say, is one safer than the other. What are the statistics on it? These '~ are all things that we will be asking Mark. Are there any safety statistics? We've had people say, these ones that are on the road are awful, our wives are run over all the time. Do they? Sue Boyt: Not in Chanhassen. Mike Lynch: Not so far but... Councilman Horn: If I put my public safety hat on, I'd say that's a terrible way to make a trail, but if I put my taxpayer hat on, I'd say that's really a good idea. Jim Mady: The way you have to look at it is if you want your 6 year old riding her bike down the trail. Councilman Horn: I'm not so sure there is road in the County that I want my 6 year old on... Councilman Johnson: Another usage of the trail is when you get snowplowed, you have to walk it. What part of the trail system are we going to have that would be good for cross country skiing? Mike Lynch: I've heard that a lot from users and they'll say, even if it's raining or even it's not snowing and it snowed last week, you run alongside the road and you get this spray constantly and you're a runner, I'm not a runner but they say breathing that stuff is not a whole lot of fun but 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 we've heard a lot of this and we're going to try and address that a little bit with Mark's research. Sue Boyt: You said there are places where we can't put a trail and I don't know where that would be. We have our easements. Councilman Geving: For example, when we put in Kerber Blvd. down here we did stripe a 4 foot on one side. Then it narrowed down to the swamp, down at the bottom of the hill there and we had to bend the road a little bit and it got so narrow that we couldn't extend the trail part of the road. I think it just kind of comes together and then when you go across the ditch, then you pick it up on the other side. We would like to have a sidewalk all the way down the road but we just didn't have the room so there would be a combination. We just did whatever we could do based on the lay of the land. Sue Boyt: easement. Usually I would think we would be able to make use of our Mike Lynch: If we're in the developing stage. Now, I've run into a couple when I was investigating the hook-up with Eden Prairie. Our land doesn't match right so there is going to have to be some zigs. Here we are and here they are and you have to get from here to there. Along TH 101 for instance, there is really no room, there's just no access there and not obliterate the ditch and all these other things and that's one road, for instance that wouldn't appeal to me to have an on-road trail so you get stuck in some hard spots but if we get to the point where we have to put one in there, on the road is the only place we're going to be able to have it because the land does not exist. Who was the citizens group that came in from West Minnewashta and that road faces the same problems? Councilman Geving: That's a tough one there. That's narrow anyway. That's very dangerous. That's a very difficult issue and I have a hard time with that one. Where it can fit. We definitely want to be off the road. That's the obvious best solution but on the other hand there are places like where we did Lake Lucy Road for example, we provided for a trail on the north side of that road. It just seemed to be the natural thing to do and I think that will work out. It's a rural area. I will be very disappointed if we don't link up the downtown with Lake Ann when we do West 78th Street on the north side with some kind of trail system. Jim Mady: We looked at that about 3 to 4 months ago. One of the biggest concerns we had was you have to get the trail out of Lake Ann to CR 17 and it just needs that... Councilman Geving: You've got to get across the road and up 78th. we begin to do it is in the right-of-way. Where Curt Robinson: It will take some studying. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mike Lynch: Some of this stuff is if we come back and say, it's too narrow for off-road and feel it's too dangerous for on-road, let's find another strip. We should know one of those things by the time Mark is finished. Councilman Johnson: Also, on the trails there seems to be a gap when you start talking sidewalks and trails. There are groups of people talking about sidewalks to get people to downtown and there is another group of people talking about sidewalks to get the kids to school so the kids aren't walking on Laredo or Great Plains. The kids walking to St. Hubert's have to walk down Great Plains and the kids going to the Elementary have to come down Laredo and the winter with the snowed banked up is awful dangerous. Sue Boyt: So would they approach the Planning Commission with a concern for sidewalks or the Park and Rec? Councilman Johnson: Yes, and then you've got the Public Safety Commission in there too because there is a public safety aspect too. To get a sidewalk in there, I think all three commissions need some input into the sidewalk because the sidewalk also would be connected to downtown neighborhood but it may not be part of your trail system. Councilman Horn: I think, we as a City, have a general policy on our attitude on sidewalks. I'm not sure we have a consistent attitude in that. --Councilman Johnson: I know grade school age mothers who have their kids walking on Laredo, they have a pretty good consensus of what they want. They would like to see a sidewalk along the north side there. Mike Lynch: I think that's about all we had specifically. We also wanted to ask, is there anything that, for instance we haven't touched on here that the Council is interested in in the Park and Rec area that we can go work out for you? Councilman Johnson: I've got one, I can't say for the Council, it's me personally, is the use of other volunteers beyond the group for specific projects. I know we have had at least three people who have volunteered to help the Park by Chan Pond. In fact, some of them on their own went out to the Forest Service or whoever and got some information. I think there will be some willing help to the Park and Recreation Commission and maybe look at these things as you are going to develop some areas to see if you've got some people in that neighborhood that are going to be most directly affected who might give their input as a subcommittee or whatever and help plan that. It might make the planning of a park a little quicker. Sue Boyt: I would like to see park planning go to a professional myself. Landscape architect who would help us plan a park so it would be of most beneficial use to the community rather than having citizens. I think their input is important but... Jim Mady: I think I have a little bit of fear of another level of Commission and we'll have so much beauracracy involved that it's going to 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 take 3 months for something to get done. I agree with Sue, we need to have professional input into developing a park. What do you actually need to do with it? Where you put the tree? Where you put the bush? Where do we put the trail? Sue Boyt: A landscape architect would know which plants to put in to attract certain animals to our passive parks. Councilman Johnson: Beyond landscape architects, you've also got various State Agencies and stuff that will help you there too. Sue Boyt: I think Lori usually contacts them first. Mike Lynch: I see a lot more, we're starting to get a lot more pure old volunteer labor. I'm involved in the Scouts and I plan on working them in. We're down at the Legion right now, with our shelter at Lake Ann. There are other groups that will do things that way. I think we can get some reasonable amounts of labor out of certain associations if we're doing a project and involve them in it. Not only does it save the city money, people get to take care of something that they have put a little bit of work into. Councilman Johnson: I'm not suggesting that you form a committee to actually do it but get the neighbor input more. Have them help you. ~ people have volunteered 6 to 8 months ago. Those Sue Boyt: I contacted them to help with the Scouts, putting the stairway in. I gave Steve their numbers anyway and I don't know if they were out there or not. Mike Lynch: It's good too in some ways...we've got a landscape architect living here in town. One that you guys know. Councilman Geving: Who. Mike Lynch: A landscape architect for instance. Councilman Geving: Oh, if we know one. Mike Lynch: There are several contracters for instance that we have hussled for work on the scout camps for years and they would, their kids were in scouting and somebody found out they were contracters and said how about going out and pushing some dirt for us? Fine. Other things like that exist inside the community. Tom Klingelhutz for instance as a carpenter is the guy that kind of headed up and designed and ordered the materials for the new shelter at Lake Ann. We used his expertise. If you see anybody that will help with us, you see a broader range of people. Councilman Johnson: to help out on too. The Army Reservists are always looking for a project 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Curt Robinson: You might be able to find someone like an internist through the University of Minnesota. Councilman Johnson: there. They have a very good landscape architectural school Curt Robinson: We might be able to find someone for the summer who would be able to do some of the work. Mayor Hamilton: The VoTech system is also someone to contact. They have lot of programs. I think our VoTech system in the State here is one of the best in the United States and is probably a good resource there... Mike Lynch: That's something I didn't think about. I don't know if they have horses in a landscaped area but you occasionally find a deal like that. Again, we use forestry schools as scout maps because the forestry professors tend to teach the theory and then they try to find someplace for these guys to go and stick a tree in the ground and downtown Minneapolis, he isn't going to put a tree in the ground so if they say they have these 5,000 trees and stick them in the ground for us. Councilman Geving: Can't you Don, get some college kids through the summer program to the CETA programs. I know we hire kids on the University of Minnesota and St. Thomas in all walks of life. They come to us in finance, in biology, they come to us at any number of fields. There has to be landscape architect grad students or younger students that need a summer job. Don Ashworth: I don't know if I understand the question. Councilman Geving: The question is aren't those people available through the summer intern programs? Don Ashworth: We hire about 14 young individuals to help in the park system. I haven't seen anyone with the qualifications that you're talking about. They have to take someone from... Councilman Geving: For example, Marty Walsh now I understand is working in a park or directing a park isn't he and he came through on that kind of a program. I don't know if he was the kind of person I'm talking about exactly but he worked for us. Don Ashworth: Marty was right on the borderline as far as getting into the program. He first didn't qualify and we had to continue trying to get him in. Councilman Geving: I thought there was a cirrculum like that. Sue Boyt: The University of Minnesota. Councilman Geving: That's all they do. They are full time at the Arboretum... 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Sue Boyt: There would probably be landscape designers instead of architects. Lori Sietsema: As far as architects, the only program in Minnesota is the University. The other closest is Madison, Wisconsin. Mayor Hamilton: In developing the parks, a lot of times people in the community like to have their name attached to a development that is going on and before we received the grant to put the lights on Lake Ann Park, I had the thought that we should approach somebody like Frank Beddor and say, Frank if you put up the $50,000.00 to put the lights up there, we'll call it Beddor Park or Beddor Field or put his name on it and I guess I still feel that that is probably a good way for us to raise funds. Sue Boyt: We talked about that at our last megting. having them donate property too. We talked about Councilman Geving: A lot of people are willing to do that. tremendous tax advantages. There are some Mayor Hamilton: I guess I throw that out as a philosphical thing. Whether or not you feel that you want to start changing things with some of our parks, which I certainly don't have any problem with that. Councilman Geving: I don't have any problem with that Tom. If someone wants to donate 20 acres and some money to go with it and we'll call it Beddor park. Mayor Hamilton: Even like the Lake Susan Park, if Herb Bloomberg wanted to give us 20 little paddle boats to put down there so people could ride around the lake and call it Dinner Theater Park or something. Councilman Geving: The Arboretum goes so far as to put a little name tag under the park benches. It says donated by Mr. and Mrs., there's nothing wrong with that. Curt Robinson: That's how a lot of the scouts fund their projects. Mike just put 11 DNR spec park benches down the Minnesota River and he hussled around trying to come up with money and he couldn't find it and then he went to certain folks and said I'll put a big placque with your name on the back of it and they said, how much do you need? Mike Lynch: Do you think we would have any dissent from the community if that happened? Mayor Hamilton: Like some committees now come up with a brochure and they tell you in there what you can buy and what the cost is. You can even buy potholes. Councilman Geving: You know darn well that Jim Curry would donate 10 to 15 acres out there is we would put Jim Curry Park or Barbara Park or 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 something, after his wife. I think the philosophy, I think we're right on. Jim Mady: It would be especially a good idea, like you mentioned the lights in the field. Instead of 1, 2, 3, why the devil can't we have them Kerber-Klingelhutz or whatever. Mike Lynch: We ought to get Kerber, Klingelhutz and Pauley because if one goes they all go. Councilman Geving: ...other cities have done a good job and Sue brought it to my attention, something that I'm aware of and that is the City of Eagan. Probably at about the same point in time that we are. A little bit ahead of us actually because they are growing a little faster but they have developed one hell of a good park plan and I have a copy on my desk that I look at very frequently because they've done such a good job. They went out and hired a good firm who did it first thing and what I'm trying to say here is I think we can learn by going out periodically and visiting other communities that have been successful. As a Commission take a Saturday drive or a day to go visit some parks. Get to know the Park Commissioners. That's how you learn. That's how you find out. I'm encouraging you to do that as a Commission. Mike Lynch: When I was running that traveling baseball team, we played at like 60 different ballfields that year and it was a real eye opener. We -- always thought we had sort of a poor neighborhood country operation and we found out we had some of the best ballfields in two states and it was kind of an eye opener. We found a lot of good little tricks that we brought back. Councilman Geving: The other thing is I don't believe everything has to be developed. I don't believe everything has to be a ball diamond or hockey rink. I think there are places in our community for just a nice passive area where you can go and look at the trees. A couple acres that we set aside some place where there is a really nice Maple stand or some amenity that if we lose it, it's gone forever so it's not always just doing things that make a park plan worth having. Mayor Hamilton: Having the pond up here, tying that in to what I was saying before, a lake to watch birds or you could name a stand after them and say... Councilman Geving: There's a tremendous asset here that we're not even acting on in that particular area. The third item that I had was, this comes down to philosophical question of whether or not we develop the existing parks or we continue to expand like we have. My personal feeling and this is only my feeling by the way, is that we have roughly a dozen parks in the City and we have some rather large acreages that have been taken out of our tax base. The 350 acres for Carver Park for example. The Arboretum, 500-600 acres and others that have been taken completely out of our tax base. I think for my purposes anyway, I would encourage the development of our existing parks. Put our money for now into building 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 what we've got. Build our tot lots, build what we need to put in as an innerstructure and then go forth accordingly. My personal feeling is let's do a good job with the money that we have available, and we do have a substantial sum of money that is available for park development right now that we could build on that and complete these parks. Bring them up to snuff and then go onto the next one. That's kind of how I feel. I don't know how the rest of Council feels but let's do a good job with the land that we've acquired. For example, right now I think of the 20 acres that we added to Lake Ann Park. We need to develop that. That is home base as far as I'm concerned for all of our parks. That is the place where it is going to happen and we've got 20 some acres there. It's going to take a lot of work and it's going to take a substantial amount of money but that will be the park in the City of Chanhassen. We can't wait for a developer to come in and move a lot of dirt for us. That's what our original thought was. That we could acquire the land and hopefully somebody would develop the whole hillside and shove the dirt into our area, the excess and we could make ball diamonds and so forth. I don't think we can wait for that so my personal feeling is let's go ahead with what we've got. Again, that's my own personal philosophy. Mike Lynch: We've been kind of looking at that. Some of the projects are so under developed that we have had a tendency to try to get a grant on it and some of them have dragged on for quite a few years because the Metro has their preferences on what they would like to fund and that sort of waffles from year to year but we don't always get what we want and it drags out but there are some projects that we could put on the books right now that the park monies could not pay for without leaving us destitude. We get to the point there where, is the City going to fund it out of general funds or are we going to put a bond out or how are we going to do this if we do it but there are some instances where that is the case? Now this is a good idea for directives. If you Dale were interested in seeing what it's going to run to get those developed, with or without lights or whatever you want, give us a yell. We'll figure it out. We'll send it back up and tell you how much money we have to operate with and see if there is a way to do it. If you Tom, see something similar that you want to have done. Somebody recently, something that's been by us, talked about a beach house at Lake Ann and maybe a little community deck over the top and that sort of thing. Some of those things are just on the edge of what we have felt for years have been our financial ability but if that is something you feel is important, ask us. We'll find out what it costs. We'll present it to you. See what you want to do. Councilman Geving: Another piece of philosophy if I may, one of the things that A1 Klingelhutz told me about 15 years ago is never spend one dollar of your park fund, the base that you've acquired, without getting at least two or three from some other source to go with it. I think we've tried to do that. We've maintained a base there an account of over $100,000.00 for a number of years and it's given us the ability to grab something real quick and replenish that fund. That fund is always remaining at over $100,000.00 and I think it is well over that now isn't it Don? That bas~ gives us the ability to get a matching grant real quick because we have our 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 $100,000.00 and if we can get the State or whoever else to put up $200,000.00 and we can use our land, our 20-25 acres as our portion of our matching funds. Mike Lynch: As I understand it, Chanhassen has been a recepient of far more grants per capita than any other townships around here. Basically, the thanks goes to Staff because all the way back into Fran's years they were quite successful in getting these things. A lot of it is the ability to read Metro and what are you going to give them for okay that's what we want it for. Sometimes it's been things that we didn't even need right at that minute but we knew it was available so you went and got it. Curt Robinson: Back to Dale's initial point, I think he said what he thinks we should do is spend our money to develop what we've got. In other words... Councilman Geving: Do the Lake Ann's. Curt Robinson: Make them better and we've been talking the last couple meetings, I think what we should do is plan ahead and if we think there is going to be some development down south in the next 10 years, let's go down there and get a piece of property now. Maybe we want to do that. What you said is totally contrary to what we're thinking. Councilman Geving: No, but you've got to mix that in. You've got to mix what I said as a philosophy about doing and making a park whole and tender that a little bit but if you see an opportunity and you know that there is going to be a site down there that you are going to have to acquire so you've got to move that in and you have to put that into your overall thinking so you can't just use the philosophy that it always totally 100%. You've got to use a little common sense too along with it. Curt Robinson: Okay. what you're saying. I'm assuming there is a limit to our funds. I hear Councilman Geving: It's not all black and all white. there is an opportunity, grab it or look at it. Keep loose and if Sue Boyt: I think we want to go out and find that opportunity in southern Chanhassen because we see the development coming. That's something we talked about at our last meeting is going down there and looking at the area, having Mark look for a piece of land. Councilman Geving: There's nothing wrong with that. I think you should. Jim Mady: I don't think we need to spend the money to buy a parcel right now but we need to identify a general area and possibly acquire an option on the property so if a development comes in and what are we going to do for park? Well, we'll ask him for a little piece here or something. 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Johnson: It's all a part of your Comp Plan. Just on the Comp Plan, do we have any options or anything. I differ slightly from Dale on what he just said in that I see the Comp Plan as one of the most important things to be done and get that overall City Park Plan and Trail thing together and establish the priorities as to whether you think what's your priority for this project, this project, that project and have it mixed in. After analyzing all the different things to be done, one of the top priorities happens to be grab this piece of land before somebody else, we go for it. If the top priority looks like we have the land pretty well under control, we really need to push this park or whatever, I want to see it prioritized. Councilman Horn: I would like to ask too, it goes along with this, what the current thinking is to the type of parks you develop? Do you have more or less the regional parks or the larger parks like Lake Ann? Do you go to the neighborhood park? Do you go to the tot lot? What should our philosophy be? To get a good trail system, do you need just a few good parks or do you try to get a park on every neighborhood? My experience has been and the biggest problems we've had have been in neighborhood parks. What we tend to see happen in there, which I think defeats the whole purpose of what we're trying to do is because there is a problem in the park, pretty soon the neighbors are up in arms about all the people coming in to use it so we put up no parking signs so nobody can use it and I don't think that is money well spent. Jim Mady: I think what you're seeing, right now there is no large development going on in any of the regional or fairly large parks. There is not that much wrong with Carver Park. You have the road and just the ends really. On Lake Ann, there isn't a whole lot around that but once that fills in, whenever that happens, those people, maybe when they first buy they think it's great but six months later when they have three people coming across their yard everytime, they have softballs laying there and then they're going to start complaining to you so I think the complaints come when the people show up. Sue Boyt: And I don't think we should not provide parks because people are complaining about it. Councilman Horn: I agree with that. to use those parks? How about limiting access to people Mike Lynch: I know what Clark's talking about because I was around for the fracas over at Carver Beach and again, some problems at Greenwood Shores with some motorcycle gangs and sort of their groups I should say. Some of our parks, in their layout and design, are not policeable. They are just not and they really attract. Now, our main park at Chaparral for instance, sees heavy neighborhood use. High neighborhood interest. Fairly accessable to the community and it is flat, it's policeable. You can see what's there. It's not the type of park where you can have beer parties, sneak out to the middle of the field so we have to kind of tune in on that a little bit when we develop a park. It's like the North Lotus Lake Park 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 where there is no way they are going to put a roadway down in behind those trees. You trap the keggers right down there. They just suck right in there so you have to eyeball that a little bit. Some of these old traditional parks we have are really a problem because of the holes in the woods and so forth but we've been seeing more and more interest in neighborhood parks. Smaller, local parks and 5 or 6 years ago if we saw one community group a year about notifying us, we were amazed and now I guess about every third meeting we have somebody come wandering in and say I'm from so and so and we were wondering if we could have such and such. Mayor Hamilton: I have a couple things that I wanted to pass on to Lori that Lori can change. I think there are a lot of things you can do, basically what you've already started. We have each park and what amenities are there. I think we should expand on that and if we can put it on computers and take each park and put on what's there now and what's planned for the next 5 years. Each year at a time. What are we going to spend this year in this park? Next year we may say we want to spend... What did we have last year and when's the next time we're going to add to it and do major construction in each park? We need to look at that based on how we feel the community is going to develop. There seems to be nothing developing around a particular park for a period of time, we won't have to spend so much there. I think I would like to see the Park and Rec do something like that and send the Council a copy so we can see what your long range plan is, expenditures and types of equipment that you want to ~put into each park, the kind of construction you want to do with each park. We can just review, even on an informal basis, make our own comments and send it back. Hopefully we can get that on a computer system where we would have it to keep track of all these things so we know how much we're going to spend each year. How much did we spend last year? What are we looking at for total dollars we're going to spend in the next five years and where do we need parks? Where each park is going to end up and how it's going to look in 3, 4 or 5 years? Mike Lynch: We've been on 5 year budgets in the past but I don't think they were real appropriate then but I think they are appropriate now. Mayor Hamilton: Yes, but we didn't have it broken down by park did we? Mike Lynch: Yes. Councilman Geving: I think we're getting into the dollar end of it now. We're talking about $75,000.00. A few years ago that budget was a few thousand dollars. Mike Lynch: We were talking $3,000.00. Councilman Johnson: Before you leave Tom, I wanted to bring up historic areas, archaelogical areas and maybe native tree stands that were brought up in Council meetings I think in December or earlier then that or whenever. There are some potential historic areas within the City of Chanhassen. Some potential archaelogical areas on the north side of Lotus 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Lake and various other places and stands of virgin maple trees and stuff. How does the Park, and there was some discussion as to who should be looking at this? Is historical and archaelogical sites within the Park and Rec's responsibilities? Mayor Hamilton: I think John has even gone to the State Historical Society and Archaelogical Society and talked to them about the digs that he has had and the findings he's made and they're not interested so. Councilman Geving: Chanhassen? There is nothing archaelogically important here in Mayor Hamilton: There are things... Councilman Geving: I think there has to be down along the river. Sue Boyt: He dug on Lotus Lake? Mayor Hamilton: Yes. Councilman Johnson: ...indian relics dating back to B.C., right at the birth of Christ time. I've seen arrowheads and pieces and the native city, it comes from Mount St. Helens is the only place in the United States that has this particular rock. Mayor Hamilton: There's a Mount St. Helens in someplace in Indiana or Ohio. I can't believe the stuff he's found. The arrowheads he found, the utensils he's found. Councilman Geving: interesting. Just the north side of Lotus Lake here. That's Mayor Hamilton: He's got a map drawn on how he thinks Christmas Lake, Silver Lake and Lotus Lake all developed. There wasn't a split at one time. They were closer together and he's got maps drawn as to how they were configured. Where the campsite was. He's fascinating to listen to. Sue Boyt: That was at the Lotus Lake Homeowners Association. Mayor Hamilton: But nobody seems to be interested in it. He's got all this stuff and he calls everybody and says, here I found it here and they say, if you find any more then call us. Councilman Geving: One reason, an archaeologist is the person who stops development and there are a lot of people who want to put a person like that down and that is extremely important. Curt Robinson: opinion. I don't think that falls into the Park and Rec area is my Sue Boyt: It sounds like something City Council should handle. 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mike Lynch: The impetus of this site that that is to be preserved is outside our dealings. I think we should be aware of where these things are because let's say that in this area where we would like to take a chunk, it is park deficient. This is not something normally that Mark is going to seek, our advisor, or the Staff is going to see so we know about those things and we say we're going to work there anyway. Councilman Johnson: Commission... The Park and Rec isn't going to do it. The Planning Jim Mady: We've got a gap. Councilman Johnson: The Carver County Historical Society came to us on a project at the Arboretum. Are we interested in aiding them in this project? Councilman Geving: It's a historical home. Lori Sietsema: The Council members have expressed an interest in talking about the capital improvement program. Councilman Geving: This has to be brought back to City Council. Lori Sietsema: Right. It was tabled at the City Council meeting to be reviewed at this meeting. Councilman Geving: ...again, we had this difference in philosophy about what you had down as an important item and we couldn't see any reason to spend any money at that time for some of these. Councilman Horn: I'll tell you the ones I questioned. My philosophy is we should spend money on the parks that have the most use, have the largest number of users. I think for whatever reason we cut off access to a park, we shouldn't be spending money on it. If you're going to take away access for Greenwood Shores, we shouldn't be spending $3,600.00 because it's not something that the majority of the City can use and I think we should then concentrate on the things on the Lake Ann Park and put the money there. Mike Lynch: I personally disagree. I think we should develop each of the parks appropriate to the amount of usage. Councilman Horn: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Mike Lynch: Now the people in Greenwood Shores could use and would use, we think according to the folks we talked to over there, is play equipment. They don't have anything in their park at all. It's not that we just decided to throw $3,600.00 to that piece of ground. Again, the fact that there may or may not be limited access to a park is a reflection of the fact that we the City who own the parks have to be able to go along with them and we can't do those folks in. 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Horn: it. Yes, but they are the ones that are limiting access to Jim Mady: That's also a neighborhood park. That's what it's for. Sue Boyt: You don't have to drive there to use it. Curt Robinson: Otherwise it is like a private park and that's really what it is. What we're trying to do here is develop a park so that the neighborhood will use it. We should make it open if we can. Councilman Horn: What I see in this case is a neighborhood park, which is exactly what we said. We develop a park. Now it becomes used by other people and they find out we want this park just for ourselves because we can't control those other folks that come in here and we want to use it when they're there and things like that so they say, we're going to cut off the parking to this area. To the beach so the people couldn't use it but they still want to have the amenities there. My feeling is, if they want the amenities there, then they need to keep it open for general use. Mike Lynch: General use is fine. Nobody has any problem there. Never has anybody come to me and say, that's our neighborhood park. We don't want anybody else in Chanhassen to come and use it. We've had problems with the misuse. The drug and all night party trade at Carver Beach, which by .-~ license plate number where not Chanhassen people. When we checked the license plates, we were blue in the face half a dozen times and that was a long struggle. Councilman Horn: Those are enforcement issues. Mike Lynch: Right but we the City can't enforce them. We don't have a police department. We have a priviledge in having that park. We the City have a priviledge in putting the park there. We have a responsibility to the people that live there, along that road to see that that was not disturbed. Their normal lifestyle. When you have druggers there all night, kicking the front door of your house in. That's a problem. We have to get rid of that. Councilman Horn: And what it says is just what you said before. You have parks that are not an enforceable situation. Why promote development of that kind of park? Why not promote development of parks where you do have an enforceable area and that's where you spend your money and that's where you get ...because the most users get benefit from those funds. Sue Boyt: Why let a neighborhood park deteriorate? It gets use. We use Carver Beach Park from the lake. People use it. That's something that happened before a lot of us were on the Park and Rec Commission. Councilman Johnson: Beach? How long ago was that they had this park at Carver 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mike Lynch: How long ago was it that we restricted it? Councilman Johnson: Yes. Mike Lynch: About 5 years ago. Councilman Geving: About 1980, 1981. It became a very hot issue. Mike Lynch: We had some really vicious incidents. Councilman Johnson: Are we on a different law enforcement situation then we were in 1980 and 1981 in that we direct the Carver County Sheriff's Department when they come here. We have our CSO's. Mike Lynch: We don't have enough people, I don't believe yet, to handle that because you look at the expansion of developed areas and home areas versus what we had 5 years ago and the number of positional officers that are on and I think if you wanted to put it on a per capita basis, we're probably at fewer officers per capita now then we were 5 years ago. Response time might be better because we should have somebody down here locally but I lived through too much of this stuff myself. I don't live in that neighborhood but I was the guy that was getting yelled at and just like Greenwood Shores, the people that cause the problem have not been Chanhassen residents. At Lake Ann, the few problems we've had there have not been Chanhassen residents. They have been from St. Paul and Eagan and Fairbault. You check out those license plates, you can't believe the answers you get and the neighbors I think have every right to expect the City to either police it for them or keep those people out. I repeat again, under no circumstances have I seen a situation where the neighbors say this is our park, we don't want anybody else in Chanhassen to use it. It's not the case. They say we don't want anyone to come in and misuse it. Curt Robinson: A lot of people came in from the City and objected to closing those parks and they did not have a lot of sympathy for their case. Mike Lynch: Those that objected to the closing didn't have any answers about handling the misuse over there either. Jim Mady: Is this an isolated incident that happened 5 years ago at Carver Beach or are there others? Mike Lynch: Actually there are 3 of them. Councilman Johnson: There is the one at Bandimere Heights. That one we just took the no parking signs down. Greenwood Shores, one resident asked to take it down. Mike Lynch: Carver Beach had a mass of problems. Greenwood Shores just started to crank up. We had about three incidents. We didn't want it to get to the proportions that it did at Carver Beach. 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Curt Robinson: I think it was 5-6 years ago. Maybe it's time to try opening it again for the summer and if it works, leave it open. If it doesn't, close it down. Councilman Geving: Do you think we're ready for that? Give it a try? Curt Robinson: It's been 5 years. Possibly that group of people have now matured enough or at least they have found someplace else. Councilman Geving: Have we changed anything down there in this time? Mike Lynch: No. No permanent changes were made that would preclude parking. Ail we've got are some metal stakes. Councilman Horn: We've got your recommendations to stop it... Mike Rosenwald: We didn't recommend that. Councilman Horn: Somebody did. Councilman Geving: do? So if we allowed parking in there again, what would you Mike Lynch: Pull out all the no parking signs? Councilman Geving: As a Commission, are you willing to try that? Mike Lynch: I don't think that's a problem. We're just going to tell them that it was your idea when they come to us. Councilman Geving: Don't tell them that. You can tell them it's Clark Horn's and he's going to be available 24 hours a day. I don't have any problem with that. I tried to go fishing one day on Lake Ann and I was going to go down to Greenwood Shores. I thought that would be a neat place to park my car and I couldn't get within two blocks of the place. I turned around and went home. Don Ashworth: We need to put Park Rules out somewhere. It needs to be chainable or in some other way so we can enforce the 9:00 or 10:00 curfew and I think the police officers are more responsive today. Of course, Castleberry has left us but I would anticipate that we're going to have someone on here very shortly and I think we can do it. Councilman Geving: Okay, let's do it. Let's try it. Lori Sietsema: The other thing is, like in the case of Carver Beach, you've got 4 or 5 parking spots in the lot. You could still keep the no parking signs along the street and just open the lot up. That way there isn't enough room there to have a full-fledged party so I think that would ,_help alleviate the problem too. 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Geving: Why don't you write this up Lori and give it the Council. You guys should make a motion and send it up to us. Lori Sietsema: I'll put it on the next agenda. Councilman Horn: When we brought this up with Greenwood Shores, I don't recall that we had a recommendation from the Park and Rec anyway. Mike Lynch: You didn't. Lori Sietsema: Just recently it wasn't brought to Park and Rec. Councilman Horn: That's what I'm talking about. The most recent application. Councilman Geving: The one to remove the no parking sign? Councilman Horn: Did you get to comment on that? Lori Sietsema: No, they didn't come to us. Curt Robinson: That's the one that had it on one side and the other one had fallen down. --~ Councilman Johnson: Yes, he thought he was the last sign. Curt Robinson: And he had people coming to his house on Saturday nights and he didn't like having to call the Sheriff because the Sheriff didn't respond. Councilman Geving: Do you have any more Clark? Councilman Horn: No, that was my whole issue was I don't think we should spend money for people who don't get to use it. Councilman Geving: You don't have any problem with the toll house? Councilman Horn: No. Councilman Geving: How about you? Councilman Johnson: I see that the big bucks here are coming from the North Lotus Lake Park which is obvious. The big bucks is actually the tennis courts there. Mike Lynch: There's something missing here, those tennis courts are in that budget as a budgetary item and it depends somewhat on what we find out from our survey as to whether those are... ~_ Jim Mady: We want to know if people really want those. 30 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Mike Lynch: We've had some indication from a few interested residents that came to the meetings that said, yes, we would like one and everybody there would like one but we just took their word for it. That's a lot of money. Jim Mady: One of the concerns I have is the people who come to meetings asking for something are always the ones who are really positive but you might find out that out a group of 100 homes around there, there is only one guy who wants it. Councilman Johnson: These courts here are very well utilized. I don't know how many other courts there are around town unless there are some out at Lake Ann. I could see that the town needs more courts. Councilman Geving: The thing that I don't have any problem with is the overall plan. You are the Park and Rec Commission and you put together a capital improvement program that you feel fits your needs as a park commission but there are a couple things that I want to ask you questions about. On the Lake Ann Park for example, I drive by there quite often and it looks like the tennis courts are used fairly extensively. It would seem to me that somewhere along the line that either we need to have another court there at some time or wait for the development of the new 25 acre park to the east but I see at some point in time I think there is a need for another tennis court there and some parking. Have we solved all the parking at Lake Ann? Sue Boyt: That's in the expansion. Curt Robinson: In the expansion, that was one thing we looked at, we actually told Mark we wanted twice the parking that he had put in. Councilman Geving: When you go out to a ball game on Wednesday night out there, they are parking everywhere. On the lawns, in our maintained area where are people are mowing so 'that's a critical need. Councilman Horn: our parks get? Along with that, do we establish how much use each of Mike Lynch: The only place that we have actual figures are from Lake Ann from the gatehouse and we will have that from the boat landing. In the other smaller parks, it's almost a function of maintenance. They can tell us how heavily this stuff is being used or if it's just falling over. Just rusted and fell over. Curt Robinson: Like with Meadow Green Park, Lori gets some calls just to reserve that park for softball use so we get a feel from that. Councilman Horn: I guess I'm just curious how you set these priorities? Sue Boyt: We went out and looked at each of the parks and the facilities. We did talk to people that lived around some of these parks. I think we had representatives from a few homeowners associations that came in. A lot 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 of it was by looking to see what shape the facilities were in and by knowing how many people are playing softball and soccer. Councilman Horn: From my perspective, I think the Council is not going to do the kind of work you do and I don't think we should second guess your recommendation. I think we can approve an overall budget figure. We can give you some of our philosophies saying we think it should go by the amount of use and things like that. Councilman Geving: I agree. A couple other questions. Lake Susan Park, is our plan this year to open Lake Susan Park and how are we going to get access? Sue Boyt: When we put this down, that was what we were told. Jim Mady: It was all based on what the HRA was going to do and we were told it should be done but they were going to have whatever was needed to be done done. Councilman Geving: So are you saying that you're going to open the kitchen facilities there at Lake Susan? Jim Mady: Only if we have the access that we were told we're going to get. We're not going to spend the money if we don't get the access. Councilman Geving: Park. Okay, I question that kitchen facility at Lake Susan Mike Lynch: We're renting that out as a special purpose weekend deal and the last word we got on it, it was rented solid. It was booked almost every weekend. Councilman Geving: Let me tell you what the citizens say. People ask me when are we going to open that park so we can start using that really nice park facility over there. They can see it from the road but they can't get there and I do get calls on that. People are frustrated by that. Mike Lynch: They use the farm road. They check the key out. folks in and they are responsible for it. They let the Councilman Geving: So is it your intention then that any of this money will be spent this year? The fishing dock, the volleyball court, sign? Mike Lynch: We really haven't jumped on that Dale but we're going to wait and see what HRA did and then decide what we were going to do. I was just stating a personal viewpoint that even if we didn't get a 7 day a week, I would still go for the kitchen because the kitchen would be used on the weekends anyway for these special purpose parties and outings and I think this is something we can provide. 32 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Horn: Just for clarification, how that road...a function of what the HRA decides instead of a function in development? Don Ashworth: And City Council as well. Really the access is going to come through Lake Drive East. To date we have really looked to Opus to guarantee that construction. We could force them and we could even force the construction of the first part of this public improvement project. Council would have to do that. You wouldn't have letters of credit and this kind of things if we did that. The expense associated with that west end construction is very high because that's where all the ponding is going to occur so if you do the westerly 300-400 yards of that road, it would be very high priced. I think it was about Three Million for the total roadway. Councilman Horn: We have a convention center, the diesel manufacturer would follow through on what they had presented, we would have that. Councilman Geving: The North Lotus Lake Park, are we going to be in a position this year to have some facilities up there? The tennis courts in this year? Mike Lynch: The tennis courts are conditional on the survey basically but the ballfield and play equipment, that's a go. They have the equipment sitting there now and they were suppose to start this fall and they didn't · -~ do it. They hope to have it operating this year. Councilman Geving: A couple other questions. Have you had much comment on the Vita Courses? Is there a need for that kind of thing or is that Park and Rec sponsored in any way? Mike Lynch: It was originally then it was co-op with the school. Councilman Geving: I see people using it. The Chanhassen Park Plan, really think that we need to do more with Chanhassen Pond Park. I think there is more that we can do there with benches. You don't have much money in here? Mike Lynch: This is just a plan in an initial development. We need a bridge down there. We need some fairly large dollar projects. Councilman Geving: What are you going to do this year? Mike Lynch: We would like to get the landscaping planned out and volunteer labor. I would like to find a volunteer way to get that done. I would like to have the bridge in at the bottom. I would like to have the path that goes around the bottom at the other side. As far as whether we get as fancy as to get a picnic area in on the one knoll... Councilman Geving: Can you do that for $2,000.007 33 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Sue Boyt: Is the developer paying anything after they tore up the hillside to replant it? Councilman Geving: I'm just curious how much we can do initially with $2,000.00. I think we should have a little bit more money in here. What I'm saying to you is I think you need to beef up this Chanhassen Pond Park. You're going to 100 or more people in that area in the next year or two so I think you're getting close to doing a lot of development. I encourage you to look at that one. The other thing is trees. I think part of your overall plan should include the planting of trees. Is that in here? Lori Sietsema: I can comment on that one. Dale is the one that maintains the tree farm and I asked him at the beginning of all these things what he needed. He bought a big stock last year of trees and he did not request any money for this year and I said do we need more trees and he said no. He's got enough for what he has planned to do. Councilman Geving: I think the tree farm has worked out real good so I encourage us to keep thinking of that. Lori Sietsema: Right now he says it's pretty well stocked. Councilman Geving: Okay, he's the boss. Again, we have to look to the people that run these programs and when they yell ouch, we have to take care of them but if he says he's in good shape. Herman Field, have we discussed this or have we decided on the access plan development? Is that going to go for this year? Lori Sietsema: The City Council has approved that and Mark just got the Agreement this week. The contract to do that and he's working on that now. Councilman Geving: Okay, so that will happen this year? Lori Sietsema: An access plan because until we get that we don't know where it's going to be or how much it's going to cost. Mike Lynch: There are two different places that might be able to use. We told Mark to take a look, if there is anyway to get in anyway, you tell us what the costs from all sides. Councilman Geving: I just had one other comment. How are we doing on the Lake Ann Park Legion sponsored development and are we going to make it this year? Mike Lynch: Tom was the leading element in that. Tom is in Texas for three months. I contacted John Lumpkin and he said I guess I'm Tom's second in command, what do you need~ I need a date you're going to put this in because we're going to bring a bunch of scouts over and help you put it in. He said, that's great, we'll take it up at our next meeting but they forgot so they're going to take it up their next meeting. 34 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Geving: Have they obligated the funds? Mike Lynch: Yes. out. The materials are all up there. Ail we have to do is go Councilman Geving: And we're going to put in the lights and the well this year to make that thing hold? Mike Lynch: That thing will go this spring. I'll take my troop out there. Councilman Geving: I only want to make one other pitch and that is I would like to move $3,000.00 somewhere out of this budget to the Chanhassen Pond Park. I don't care where you get it. $2,000.00 would be great because I really think that's an area that we've got to put money into this year to bring it up to snuff. Jim Mady: I don't agree with that. Mike Lynch: We don't know what we want to do with it. Councilman Johnson: The developer sat over there and stated that he would help with the plantings at that park but once he's gone, we're not going to see him anymore so by the end of 1987 he could be out of there. Sue Boyt: But that's not up to us to watch him and make sure he does what he said he was going to do. Not the Park Department. Councilman Johnson: We still have control over him when he's putting in streets, we're accepting utilities from him. We still have control. We have a leash. Sue Boyt: I think that's something you guys need to do. Councilman Johnson: We've got escrow but what I'm saying is it was a statement saying if you make a park, I'll help you so I don't want to under emphasis that park plan and we'll find the meeting minutes to make sure that he brings that up. Councilman Geving: need at Chan Park? You guys both live over there. What do you think we Councilman Johnson: It's a passive park so there's not a lot that we're going to be doing there. Because we didn't get trail access to the north side of it, that eliminates one of the best places to develop. Up on that knoll where you could have put an overlook. Councilman Geving: We still have that. Curt Robinson: You can't get to it. 35 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Johnson: access 10 feet up. The Council voted down the trail access. We have Councilman Geving: I'm talking right off Kerber Blvd.. Sue Boyt: That's not acquired yet. Councilman Johnson: What I'm talking about is on the north side which is in the Chan vista group that there is a knoll coming up and there are a couple great big trees, a natural overlook. That's within the easement but I pushed to put the trails through there and we didn't get a trail easement. We only got a conservation easement but we're not allowed to put trails in a conservation easement. Councilman Geving: What do you think of that Don? Can we put an overlook here? In that area there where there's a couple big trees. We talked about this. Don Ashworth: That whole area is just a conservation easement. Councilman Geving: Just on top of the hill off Kerber. Councilman Johnson: No, you're in a different place. middle of the pond on the north side of the pond. This is in the Curt Robinson: Here's the pond, here's the fence line. There is a knoll right about here where the contour does this and then the gully right here. This is the knoll they're talking about. Councilman Geving: Okay, I know what they're talking about. Councilman Johnson: It does take a trail up through here however we are allowed trails in the area way down here and all of this is a conservation easement and they were very specific. They brought up we have insurance problems. Curt Robinson: We're getting much more specific than what this meeting was supposed to be about. Councilman Johnson: What I'm saying, if I hear your voice there's not a whole lot we can do there. What we do is replant it and put back some vegetation. There might be a couple things we can do to the little pond they have created as their sediment basin. One idea, I just got a thing from the Department of Agriculture on creating a nature center for schools. I think the elementary school would be interested in a little section there where students can do their little experiments and stuff. How does an acorn grow or whatever? How does erosion happen? A little scientific area for the grade school but there's not a whole lot we can do there besides new plantings. Native vegetation, couple grasses, better cover. Mike Lynch: We pick up that west side and then... 36 Park and Rec Commission Meeting Januray 20, 1987 Curt Robinson: This meeting is not to discuss Chanhassen Pond Park. Councilman Horn: There is a point here too that comes up and that is the need to have you guys represented as these kind of things come up. The point of what you were trying to do in this thing was totally over shadowed by the road and densities and all those other things. If you had somebody there who could speak for your group to bring this point out to us, there were so many other hot issues. Sue Boyt: There was someone there at all those meetings. There was someone there that brought them up. I brought that up over and over and over again. Councilman Horn: The point I heard was we don't want the road to go through. It's got too much density and the density was half of what the previous proposal was. They were brought up but I don't think the understanding of what the overall plan was. We really did not comprehend that. Sue Boyt: It was presented to you. Councilman Horn: Council tried to typically, we tried this in several cases and we've gotten burned every time so we try to go the cheap route, take the conservation easement and intimidate the developer into giving us ---something for nothing and that never works. It never works. We tried that at Lotus Lake Estates and we got burned there. It never works. Councilman Johnson: I would like to look at the specifics there, maybe negotiating a trail easement for this knoll. Sue Boyt: It's too late. Councilman Johnson: Not for the property owner. He can't use it. Jim Mady: It depends on how much money you want to spend. At this point in time those lots are starting to get real expensive. Sue Boyt: We had a plan of where we wanted the trail to go. We presented that to the Council of where we wanted that trail to go up on that knoll and around. Curt Robinson: program? Any other comments on the proposed capital improvement Sue Boyt: We needed to talk about if you want one of us there and how we set up a schedule. If you're going to set it up or if we're going to set it up? Curt Robinson: I think we need to do that at our meeting. 37 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Councilman Geving: Whoever's available and whatever issues are coming up before the Council on that night. We don't generally have too many Park and Rec items. One every other meeting. Councilman Horn: And I would say if you have an issue that affects anyone of you personally that you have somebody else from the Commission. Sue Boyt: Well, we might both be there. Councilman Geving: It would be interesting too once we finish a year, let's say you've got a budget here of $80,500.00 of what was actually accomplished over the year. Councilman Johnson: It would be nice to accomplish all those things. Curt Robinson: I'll bet you money that we don't spend half of that by the time the year is done. Councilman Johnson: There are a lot of unique things you can do. In a budget you are always conservative. You never want to go over budget. Mike Lynch: We tried to propose every use that we could see that could be economically done but so many of them are development sensitive or something sensitive and it doesn't work out that that can be done. Curt Robinson: The tennis court thing, like Mike said, we have to see what the survey says and if we don't get our rear ends in gear, we won't have a survey done in 1987 so we've got a lot of work to do. Councilman Horn: Do you have anyone in mind to write this survey? Lori Sietsema: I got one person to respond to wanting to do that from St. Thomas and he's been sitting on hold wondering whether they can be hired or not so I was going to bring it up at the Park and Recreation Commission and have another recommendation brought to City Council because City Council did not act on it last time. You tabled action on it. Councilman Geving: Do you have anything Don? $80,000.00? That it's a good budget? Are you satisfied with the Don Ashworth: Yes. Councilman Geving: agenda item. Okay, then you'll have to put it on our agenda as an Councilman Horn: From our perspective, if there is somebody in place to do that, that's all I was looking for. If you've got somebody in mind to do this and you know what you're going to pay him and you have that plan in mind, I don't have any problems with that. I have a lot of respect for the people at St. Thomas. 38 Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 20, 1987 Robinson moved, Mady seconded to adjourn the meeting. and motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Ail voted in favor Submitted by Lori Sietsema Park and Recreation Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim 39