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1 Approval of Minutes CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING APRIL 24, 2001 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Fred Berg, Jan Lash, Jim Manders, Rod Franks, David Moes, and Mike Howe MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash: l just want to have it be said that I can tell when I'm not here running the meeting you guys can't carry on a complete conversation. You go from one topic to the next from page to page. It's all messed up. Therefore I will never be absent again. Berg: I promise I will never lead another meeting. Moes: I thought it flowed rather well. Berg: Thank you. We had a little problem at the beginning. Lash: Did you read the minutes? Franks: ! just want to say, I have a comment about the minutes. This is probably the most intelligent thing I've said all year and I was surprised that I read it. Lash: Do you want to say it again? Franks: Page 25 from February 27th. And chocolate. There was not enough chocolate, l just think that was a very important thing. Hoffman: More chocolate. Franks: More chocolate. 1 think this would be a happier, friendlier town if we just had more chocolate. Howe: Did you see that movie...? Lash: Okay, can you guys make enough sense out of this to approve them because I ~vasn't here so I'll abstain so. Okay, is there a motion to approve the February 27th minutes? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Moes moved, Manders seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated February 27, 2001 as presented. All voted in favor, except Lash and Howe who abstained and the motion carried. Lash: See, both of us are gone, they can't carry on an intelligent conversation. Berg: We lost our continuity. Moes: Those of us here followed it very well. Berg: I guess we cared enough to be here, we followed it. Lash: That's right. Okay, and then the minutes from March 27th. Is there a motion to approve? Manders moved, Moes seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated March 27, 2001 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Lash: And a motion to approve the minutes from April l0th. Berg moved, Moes seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated April 10, 2001 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. REQUEST TO INSTALL FLAGPOLE AND PICNIC AREA AT LAKE ANN PARK; PAUL PALMER AND NEXT GENERATION DEVELOPMENT. Lash: Moving onto new business, we have a request from, who is it exactly? Ruegemer: Mr. Paul Palmer representing the Chanhassen Lions. Lash: Okay, for the flagpole and picnic area at Lake Ann Park. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Lash. Going through and having conversations with Mr. Palmer for quite some time now, he did formally kind of put together a plan and submit some information to me to have considered at the Park and Rec Commission meeting tonight. Mr. Palmer, as we said, is a Chanhassen resident. Also a member of the Chanhassen Lions group that has performed many projects for the city. He is proposing a picnic area and a flagpole type of a project out at Lake Ann Park. As you see in your packet, included in that, if you look on the back page, on the last page of the staff report, is the area that he is suggesting as a possible location for this project and that would be by ballfields number 4 and number 5 out at Lake Ann Park. By the little concession building and the drinking fountain as shown on the plan. Does the commission need clarification as to. Lash: Between 3 and 4 actually. Ruegemer: It's closer to 4 and 5. Kind of where the new path comes in where the Lions monument is. Moes: 1 was curious, I'm following the hand drawn diagram and 1 was trying to place it specifically on this one. 2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: So would it be just south of the concession building then? Ruegemer: It would be south of the concession building, correct. Lash: Okay. Ruegemer: Do you see on the third page, tile Lake Ann, the map right there and you kind of see where the concession building is noted between fields 3 and 4, and it gets you a little triangle spot. That's about in that area that we're discussing this evening. Okay, thank you. Mr. Palmer has put itl some time and some consideration in developing this plan. It's important I guess for us to look at tonight kind of the overall plan as to kind of what we're trying to achieve out at Lake Ann Park. The area in question, and I stopped there again today trying to look at this particular area. This area and really any area up above where the drinking fountain is, the playground area is very limited for this type ora project so to speak. You know with really Mr. Palmer's ideas kind of behind this project was to kind of bring a sense of family to events and more ora family atmosphere. Where mom or dad are playing softball for the night. Grab some food. That sort of thing. Have a little bit ora picnic and really kind of have it in an area where it can get together and enjoy some family time versus just dropping dad off or him coming by himself. That really was his idea behind this ~vhole plan. But as you said, the area is very small and really has some limitations. ! had to discuss with Mr. Pahner if really the kind of the picnic area is what we're trying to accomplish, why couldn't that happen under the concession building as it presently is happening, which certainly is really kind of the way it is happening right now. I think lie was really concerned that there wasn't a grill sort of, a grill kind in that area where people can enjoy brats and hamburgers and hotdogs and that sort of thing so. As mentioned, being in that area, since it is close to the ballfields, there is some potential of foul balls going up in that area. if we're bringing spectators even closer, I mean people do sit in that general area but if we put an asphalted, or concrete type ora surface in that area, maybe encouraging maybe some unsafe situations for people. Also I was also concerned about the hot grills close to tile children's area. We know how quick things can happen. If the commission would like to do some type ora grill, maybe a better situation would be on the other side of the little concession building or have that in the master plan of the concession building if that ever does get to that point where the commission does identify some CIP money and redeveloping that. Having permanent restrooms and maybe at that time, maybe more ora picnic area could be incorporated into that plan. In my opinion a flagpole really is the only option up there. I did talk with Mr. Pahner again this ~norning in regards to you know what happens if the flag does disappear either through theft or maybe it's worn out.'? He was checking on that information with the Legion Club just to find out who would be responsible. The Legion's not going to be on the hook for the rest of our life you know to replace flags every time one disappears. 1 mean that's not a reality in my opinion. So 1 realize it's something that we're going to have to address. Do we just fly the flags on special occasions, on tournaments and the 4th of July? And then take it up and down or leave it up in those types of situations and have the light on. Shining on the flag. That may be an option that we should consider tonight. Because there is activity out there. There's just a lot of down time and we did have a flag, as mentioned in the staff report, at the entrance of Lake Ann Park that did disappear frequently according to our park inaintenance staff so something that we should certainly consider. And again, looking at Mr. Palmer's plan, it looks like he did do homework as far as talking to the Legion about donation of the flagpole area. The electric contractors about doing some of the service work. The augers, so it really, lie really has done a lot of work to get this to be kind ora free type of really kind ora pain free situation for this city. And it certainly would enhance the park in my opinion so I'm going to, staff is going to recomlnend that the picnic concept of the plan is not approved as tonight. As presented, but the Park and Rec Comlnission does recommend approval of the flagpole project and can direct staff on working with Mr. Pahner and the Lion's Club, the Legion Club on getting that project done as outlined tonight. Park and Rec Commission Meeting- April 24, 2001 Lash: Just a couple of quick questions for you Jerry. Can you think of some other place in Lake Ann that would be more suited for another small picnic area? Or did they really want it there because it's Lion's field right there? Ruegemer: That is certainly part of it. And also kind of the family atmosphere of the ball. Paul is really, his agenda really is to get more people involved in the over 40 league and softball in general because it is a, 1 don't want to call it a dying sport but numbers are declining with that. And I give Paul credit for wanting to include family and having kind of a fun atmosphere. This just isn't tile right place for it. Could that be over between kind of the path area on the kind of the west side of the playground area going towards field 3? Is that more ora suitable location? That's better than by the drinking fountain and by tile paths in my opinion. Lash: Which area? The west area. West of what? Ruegemer: It would be, if you're looking at the plan itself. Why don't l just step up to here. This is kind of the area that we're talking about. It's kind of right itl here. There's kind ora path that kind of leads. Maybe there's that kind ora gradual hill that goes down a little bit right here. Maybe that might be a better situation. Or we just say you know what? The best spot right now is under tile guise of the concession building. I mean there is picnic tables around that area. There is flat space...and additional picnic tables and people can, which people are doing now. People are sitting at those tables and either bringing a Subway or a sandwich or McDonald's or something like that so I mean that is occurring right now and you know...it's really all that necessary that we do have a lot of picnic areas at Lake Ann that aren't getting used. Lash: Well that probably answers my second question because I wanted to know if you thought that he'd be open to investing in something in another area and not Lake Ann Park. But you think he strictly wants to stick with Lake Ann Park? Ruegemer: Itl my opinion, yes. Lash: Alright. Because I was going to suggest Memorial Park. Ruegemer: Yeah, which may be a possibility. His position really was, you know that's fine. If it happens, it happens. I really don't need to take on another project is kind of what his sentiments were this morning. Lash: Well if the over 40 league is kind of dying out, maybe they'd be more interested in a memorial. Berg: Could we choose another word? Lash: Okay, well that answers my question. Anybody else have questions? Franks: Are you suggesting that there's room for a grill between the concession stand and like, if you kept the tables in there to eat, are you thinking of placing a grill somewhere around the concession stand at all? Ruegemer: That's something that staff can investigate more. I haven't really looked at it in that depth but there is open space ! guess around that area if that's what tile commission would like to do. Park and Rec Commission Meeting- April 24, 2001 Moes: Probably move towards field 3? Hoffman: Yeah, out in that grassy area so it has good sight lines so the kids, it would take a while for the kids to get from the playground to the grill. People would notice that. Franks: Okay. Hoffman: Tile other thing to remember, this site at some point in tile future will have sewer and water and a larger picnic shelter right there in that location. That's always been tile thought that we have the utilities running right there and the water running right there to put an indoor restroom facility with a larger covered shelter and that type of an atmosphere right there in that location. In doing that yon would eat up all of the available area at that location. Franks: Would he be open, would Mr. Pahner be open to, I'm feeling as iL if we can find a way to support this idea of family involvement in that area, I think that we should do it. And if there's a simple solution like throwing a couple more picnic tables under the concession stand and maybe this is not so simple but cementing a grill into the ground of an appropriate number of feet back from the trail between ballfield 3 and the trail there, maybe we can work with that. Lash: Is there not a grill in the area of the little shelter? Ruegemer: No. Lash: Why don't we just ask him to take tile money and put in a few more amenities to the shelter telnporarily and know whether it means adding onto the picnic area there and sticking a grill right there and tile flag pole right there and then it's all in one spot instead of having all little things all over the place, l just think that would be easier for maintenance too. Hoffman: We'll just offer him a proposal. Berg: What does it cost to replace tile flags, do you know? Ruegemer: I do not know that Fred. Lash: And did he say that they would, if it was stolen, replace it or, that wasn't clear. Ruegemer: He doubted that they would. Franks: Is it their conception that the flag would be flying most of the time and lighted? Berg: l'm wondering why we couldn't ask for a donation of x number of dollars and then ~vben that is exhausted, then we'll cover the rest of the flag. The cost of the flag for that year. $150.00 a year or something. Whatever, it depends on what the cost are. Maybe enough to replace it 4 or 5 times. Howe: I don't think they're that expensive. I don't know. 1 don't know how big this flag would be. Lash: Well it doesn't have to be like a Perkins flag. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Moes: 45-50 bucks. Lash: Yeah, a good flag is. But can you put it up and then, I suppose that wouldn't work either. I was trying to figure out how you'd take the rope, somehow get the rope down so that people couldn't be. Hoffman: We padlocked the rope 12 feet up on the other pole. Lash: People climb tbe pole. Hoffinan: They just shimmy up there and rip them down. You'd obviously only fly thegn through the summer season, May through September, October... Lash: The Legion is usually good about helping about with flag things like that too so. Berg: Would it be more or less likely to...furtber in the park? I mean it's not right on the road or where it was before. Maybe it wouldn't be quite so appealing. Hoffman: Nice road right to it. Moes: How much extra work would it be to take it down on whatever periodic basis? Hoffman: It'd have to be a daily basis. Ruegemer: It'd be like opening up the Lake Ann gate every morning. Berg: How much to electrify the pole? Moes: That's a good idea. Just hit the switch when you leave and see what you catch. Lash: It's when the light goes ono Hoffinan: Okay, you should probably put together a motion in that regards so we know what to include in this proposal. Moes: Just real quick. Is Mr. Palmer's objective to keep it by field 4 there, is that right? Ruegemer: That seetns to be, yeah. That's where he would like it to be. Moes: Would there be any thought to entertaining, I mean doing something out past left field there or, I'm trying to think of the terrain out there. Ruegemer: Out by, I'm sorry. Moes: Beyond left field on field 4. Kind of in the outfield. Ruegemer: As far as aesthetics goes, tbat probably wouldn't be really the kind of the, everything kind of comes into a head or a focus kind of in that area. Moes: I understand. ! was thinking a whole left field view but. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: Okay. How about if we make a motion here. Berg: 1 move we reco~nmend approval of the flag pole project as presented by the Chanhassen Lions Club and that we direct staff to work with the Lions in terms of additional picnic tables, benches, along with a grill. And that we also investigate the possibility of sharing in the cost of flag replacement. Lash: And relocating it to a more conducive location by the shelter? Berg: Well I'd leave that up to staff's discretion. Lash: Is there a second to that? Howe: I'll second that. Berg moved, Howe seconded approval of the flag pole project as presented by the Chanhassen Lions Club and direct staff to work with the Lions in terms of additional picnic tables, benches, along with a grill, and investigate the possibility of sharing in the cost of flag replacement. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 6 to 0. 2002 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM RECOMMENDATION. Hoffman: Thank you Chair Lash, members of the commission. I wanted to get ajump start on the 2002 C1P. I have some corrections for you and then i'm going to just briefly walk you through the first set of materials. It's not overly complex because we have not identified a great deal of improvements. Just a couple of big ticket items in the coming years. If you open your packet to the page 30, under the first packet. There's a total page for the 5 year capital improvement project total. And you'll notice that year 2000 has $1,046,300 and that is due to the transfer or the allocation of $850,000 for the Highway 101 South, Shore Drive to Town Line Road trail. 2002, the number, $108,000 is correct. 2001. 2002, you should change that total from $300,000 to $275,000. And that's the year we're talking about today and that's a single item. That is the City Center Park warming house and shelter building. 2003, you need to knock off one place. That's not $750,000. It's $75,000. 2003. I left on vacation when these numbers came out. Lash: So that was a typo, not a budget reduction? Hoffman: Yes. Typo. Well it's some of both. Some of both. And then 2004 is identified at $185,000. Okay, then turning back to page 2. You'll notice items with a line dashed through have been deleted as a part of the 2001 capital improvement program process. Either by the council, the city manager, or the finance director. Items which have a check next to them have been completed in either 2000 or 2001. Check mark means they are either purchased or completed. The second. Lash: Can I ask a quick question on that? Hoffinan: Sure. Lash: Under 2000, the 60,000 and the 900 have been crossed out. Park and Rec Commission Meeting- April 24, 2001 Hoffman: Yep. Lash: Does that mean it was eliminated or does it mean it's been completed? Hoffman: Eliminated. Lash: That was, so we never did phase 1 of playground equipment at Bandimere? Hoffman: The $30,000 was purchased in 2001. And so $60,000 was not utilized in 2000 and 2001. This year we purchased $30,000 worth of play equipment which will go in this summer. Lash: Okay, so was our budget just reduced by that amount then? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: It wasn't used somewhere else? Hoffman: No. Lash: Okay, and then how about the grills? Then we just didn't have any grills and it wasn't slated for anywhere else? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: Ever. And then the vending machine shelter, it's just so~neone's idea that that should just never happen? Hoffinan: Correct. Lash: Was that the City Council's idea? Hoffman: I don't recall which one was which but it was between those three parties that I mentioned. Lash: I guess I'd just be interested in what the thinking was. Was it because it's a vending machine shelter or you know was it just no need ever for a shelter or what the thought was? Hoffinan: Again, I was not involved in those decisions. I don't know what tbey were thinking. Howe: They kept us out of the restoration. Lash: They what? Howe: They kept us out of the restoration. Lash: Well good. Actually I wish we could move that up. It's an eyesore. Hoffinan: The actual CIP, 5 year CIP as approved by the City Council was the last document in your packet. Tben the middle set of pages are the master park plans which would identify all future improvements or all potential future improvements at the different park locations. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: Can I ask you another couple questions? Okay. Oil page 10, City Center Park. So tile hockey board assembly, so we won't have hockey boards or was that moved somewhere else or? Hoffman: That was deleted. Lash: Because of the skate park. Hoffman: Yep. Lash: Okay. And then how about tile senior garden, because that is happening now isn't it? Hoffinan: Tile senior gardens is tile, well I'll show you. It's tile plan on this side of the road. Tile other one is tile community garden. Lash: Oil, okay. And so that's just been deleted? So tile community garden's supposed to fill that need then? Hoffinan: I haven't planned for it. I don't know if you're going to be requesting that to be reinstated. 1 think it's a nice project. Lash: ! think there's some support from the seniors. Hoffinan: I think tile basis of the conversation is in 2002 do you want to dedicate or make a recommendation that they include $275,000 of that project? Have your priorities changed since this 5 year CIP was developed? One question I think was the trail which was deleted fi'om Chanhasseu Hills to Bandimere. I still see that as a high priority. Where should that come back into the CIP? Lash: Well in 2000, you know tile 101 trail for $850,000, who knows if that's ever going to happen. Hoffinan: Don't know. Lash: And Marsh Glen trail, did that not happen? Hoffman: That will happen. Lash: It will still? Hoffinan: We're working ou it. If you've had a chance to drive through there, you can go through Mission Hills and then take the cul-de-sac back and the developer is still working oil a couple of homes there and once he drives that alignment loose to us, Dale and his crew will be putting the trail in. We have Hoisington Koegler working oil the design. The trail actually goes over the top of the sanitary sewer. The Lake Ann interceptor so Thursday we'll excavate. Put down a foam insulation so that, when you clear off trails and streets, the frost goes down much deeper because it's always clear all winter long so we have to insulate that pipe so we don't freeze up the Lake Ann Interceptor so we'll be putting that down. Putting rock down and then building the trail. And that includes a DNR and watershed permitting process to get across Riley Creek. As the creek winds through there, we have to culvert that. There are some permitting issues involved and we're confident we'll get it done by the end of the year. It'll be a nice connection. What we want to do is start aiming the trail, pointing the trail towards Eden 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- April 24, 2001 Prairie. I've talked to Bob Lambert, the Director of Parks and Recreation in Eden Prairie. He's ready, wheu the time comes, when MnDot, will negotiate with MnDot to acquire the additional trail easements around that side of the lake. Just to complete it all in one shot. Lash: I would agree with you Todd. I think that we thought that that trail from Bandimere to Chanhassen Hills was a high priority and it was about the only project we even were really pusbing for in 2001. So I'd be interested in why, you know what the thinking was behind why this would be deleted. Hoffman: Well we talked about it and it was actually a recommendation to the commission that we talk about, if 10 I, there was a big push for 101 at that time but some of the funding was disappearing. If we had to choose, if they were both to be built now, we'd want to put the money to 101 North. So I'm not sure if that allocation would be $150,000 is going to stick through this next CIP cycle. 1 don't particularly advocate using those kind of dollars out of the 410 fund to complete that project so then we recomlnend that that be reduced and the 101 south trail added in or do you want to see the warming house put on hold and use those dollars for the 101 trail? Manders: I'd like to ask a question, hi terms of funds that we have ill the 410, or whatever other 10 you've got, how many dollars do you have there relative to what these projections, or expenditures that we're looking at here. Are we pretty much self funded in all of these projected expenses? Hoffinan: Cash on hand today is about a million seven and so you, if you did not earn ally additional dollars you can pretty much fund what you have allocated here. Franks: Does that include any extra that would be necessary for purchasing, final purchase of the Fox property or has that been? Hoffinan: Hopefully what remains in the referendum fund. Franks: Will cover it? Hoffinan: Will cover that, yes. Franks: Okay. Hoffinan: lfnot, then those funds would need to come out of 410. Lash: So what is it you're looking for us to do tonight with this? Hoffman: Talk it over and either come up with a plan or direct staffto bring back additional information. Again you'll be making a recolmnendation for 2002. We also have to come back with a 5 year plan so worrying about when you should be staging all these improvements can occur for another night. I just want to get an idea about where your priorities lie. Manders: One opinion I would have is that, I place a higher value on that trail to Bandimere Park tllan I would on that park warming shelter. Lash: Me too. Hoxve: I think that's important. 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: I think we'd get way more use out of it. Having just looked at those reports last month or wheuever that was on the usage of the ice rinks. I think the trail would have way more usage. Frauks: ...warming house at City Center Park. Hoffinan: Picnic shelter. Franks: I meau all summer, fall aud spring this is what's happeuing up there. My only thinking too Todd and maybe you can help with this question is what kiud of a time line would there be if let's say we decided to recommend moving forward with the park shelter for City Center Park? I'm thinking of the library going in and all of the happenings here and my feeling is it'd be really nice to have this whole area completed. If we could work and the library coming on line and City Center Park really becoming polished and finished off. All around the stone kiud of time. Really create this whole, entire package together. Hoffinan: Well if it was approved in the budget in December, plans and specs could be done by this spring aud bid and then the project would be co~npleted throughout the 2002 construction season for use in the winter of 2002-2003 and then it'd be available for the following summer. Howe: Would you gain any economies of scale, and you probably can't answer this but if the compauy that builds the library did the shelter, is there any savings there? If the same company did it? Hoffman: There could be but I don't see any way ofco~nbiuing tile projects. Hox~.e: You cau't combine. They'd have to bid it like anybody else would. Franks: I've seen so.ne of the library schematics too aud it looks like there's some push for a road. Hoffman: From the north? Franks: To cut through and I'm wondering if that, if we'd want to see how that plays out before we look at a park shelter, or put the park shelter in now to save the integrity of the park. Hoffinan: The road was actually identified as a part of the planniug process for City Center Park. So if you look in the middle there, the Brower and Associates plan for City Center, this shows a modified thru street to allow greater visual and then vehicular traffic access to the park site. The discussiou about the road or the access around city hall is, for those individuals living on this side of town, as you drive down Kerber, they call it the race track in the snowplow business. You guys got the race track. And you're trying to get to the school. Right now people go Coulter and then they cut back up. If they take Coulter out and then you need to go all the way down to a stop light, through a second stop light and then through a third stop light to ge/back up to the school. That's going to cause some people to not do that and go on Santa Vera, which is a residential street which is going to cause those people some hard times and so there's discussion about, well there's post office and civic and shouldn't we have some way to get through here and that's what that centered around. That conversation. It has not been a favorite topic of discussion among the library group or the City Council so they don't seem real excited about it. Franks: Oil, okay. I1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- April 24, 2001 Lash: Okay, anybody else have anything? Hoffman: The House Majority leader, Tim Pawlte spoke today at the Chamber meeting. Ed Oliver and Tom Workman were still in session and parks and trails were made his top five list of bread and butter issues in Minnesota so it was nice to bear and he recognized Chanhassen as having nice parks and trails that provide good service to our community and to continue investing in those areas so he was a believer in what you're doing as well. Manders: Where is the proposed shelter for City Center? Hoffinan: Are you at the diagram Jim? Manders: Yeah. Hoffman: Right there at that hub. Lash: If you look over to the right it says warming house. Manders: Ob there. Okay, I got you. Hoffman: Obviously the one model that we do have is the shelter at the recreation center. It's about a quarter of a million dollar structure as that sits out there today. So it's an expensive endeavor if you want to go brick to match city hall and brick to match the rec center. The Chaska model, which serves the function that they're using it very nicely is like at Pioneer Park and Friendship Park. You've seen them, just a long ranch building with open truss design. Wood with some brick around the bottom so those are probably $100,000. Berg: It looks like a Quonset hut without walls. It's very unattractive. Hoffinan: It's serviceable. It serves a purpose. It's not a long term investlnent. Berg: This is probably getting way ahead of the game too, but having stopped up at the skate park the last couple days, I'd be concerned with having the warming house that close to there, the way they're trashing that place. That's just an invitation to go over and start trashing there too. It was embarrassing. To see what they're doing out there. Moes: That is true. I mean that is close proximity. Berg: l'm the last one that ever talks about vandalism and defending the kids but boy ob boy. That was really something. Hoffman: It's an item on our agenda later. Lash: So are there other? Hoffman: Other hot buttons? Lash: No. 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Hoffman: Otherwise I'm going to go ahead and present, develop a 5 year CIP and 2002 recommendation. Berg: Is the, for Meadow Green, the replacement of Phase I equipment is, I haven't looked at that for a while. That's getting pretty bad isn't it? Can we wait til 2003 for that? Hoffman: I was just starting at it the other day walking through and yeah, that's going to be a push. The issue we're having is, what we don't want to do is, we can uproot and then replace it again and make it last a few more years. We would just as soon stretch it out and then when it goes away, it goes away and we replace it with another structure so. That's getting close. It's one of the playgrounds, well it's the playground that we get the most complaints on. It doesn't match what's in our neighborhood parks. Not up to date. Lash: Berg: Hill. Lash: Well it's a very heavily used park. It's also a unique neighborhood park. It's a community neighborhood park. It's not like Power ...with all tile ballgames and stuff scheduled there, it gets some pretty heavy use. Was there another one that we could flip flop? Hoffman: I'll go take a look. Berg: Well if you think it's fine. I guess I'd appreciate just keeping an eye on it. Hoffman: 2003 right now? Berg: Yeah. Lash: So are we looking then for some kind of consensus oil, do we want to have the warming house in for 2002 or tile trail to Bandimere in 2002? Is that what you're looking for? Some type of agreement. Hoffinan: So far I heard that the trail takes priority. Lash: Oh, I thought you were leaning towards the warming house? Franks: Well I'd like to see them both in on 2002 personally. Lash: I would too but. Manders: Given a vote though I would go with the trail. Berg: I would too because of the need for the trail and also the ambiguity with the ~varming house and location, the library and skate park and everything else. There's just too much, to me there's too much mystery. Moes: I think that needs to be settled a little more. Franks: l just have these visions though of this great library and plaza and wonderfully getting finished off, City Center Park and this trailer pulled up there for the winter. 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: It's just for a couple months. Franks: You know we ought to go get that sussel garage, or whatever that was and bring her back you know. Restore it. Moes: The trailer is white and it blends. Lash: Any other questions or comments on this? Franks: Are we ever putting a bench itl on tile knoll? Itl Prairie Knoll Park? Hoffinan: Call. Franks: Was there ever any thought of doing that? ! bike ride there and run by there and things so I thought that'd be pretty cool. Hoffinan: We have money this year for benches. Lash: Okay, anything else? No one? Hoffinan: No. Moes: Lash: Sure. Okay. Somebody want to, do you need a motion? l'm sorry Jan. Can I ask one more question? Moes: itl moving, you were talking the park shelter, warming house. If we change components do we, do you move the funds associated with them or can we, I mean if we push the park shelter and xvarming house back, does the $275,000 follow that or do we have $275,000 to spend in 2002? Hoffinan: It would stay with the trail. So the motley would switch over to the trail, the 101 south trail. Moes: The 275 would or the dollars associated with the 2003 and the trail move forward? Hoffman: 2003 the trail's not there. And so if the shelter moves over you'll allocate 275 to the shelter ill 2003 and then itl 2002 you need to allocate, I think it's 250 estimated. I'll update the estimate... Moes: Alright. Lash: Okay. Are we done? Franks: Fred, !'m just wondering how you'd feel about transferring the playground equipment from Herman Field to Meadow Green. If we could just transplant them around. Lash: Well l'm not interested in putting anything else at Herman Field. Hoffinan: Neither is the neighborhood. 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: ! mean itjust gets vandalized. Berg: What do we have allocated at Herman? Franks: Nothing. I mean pull up the playgrouud. Lash: Oh! Franks: And put it in Meadow Green. Berg: I see what you're saying. Lash: That'd be fine by me. They'd have to go a long ways to vandalize it. Moes: Would we have to poll the neighbors to do that? Berg: See I was going to say, do we have to. Moes: That's something to explore, isn't it? Berg: We owe them the courtesy of letting them know what we're thinking of doing obviously. Lash: Due to a high level of vandalism we're removing it before it's totally destroyed. Franks: And as a safety issue, it creates less ora draw to. Lash: The vandals. Franks: The vandals to come down there. It removes targets of their occupation. Lash: We'll keep an eye on it for a while and then. Hoffinan: Okay, do you want a neighborhood meeting on that? Lash: No, not really. Can you just send a letter? Do we have to have a neighborhood meeting or can we just send a letter and say if, you know if you have any comments, e-mail you. And then if it looks like there's some kind ora major uprising then we could have a meetiug if we need to. Hoffinan: That's fine. Lash: If we call one, then they're all going to come in. Hoffinan: Talk to you about everything else. Lash: You know we hate to have people come in and talk to us. Hoffinan: We can send out a letter and then you can gauge that and make a recommendation to the couucil. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: What's over there? I mean is it something that would fill the bill? Hoffman: Oh it's pretty nice, yeah. Franks: Yeah, it's nice equipment. Hoffman: And it has a second phase that would be completed. Lash: And I know that you can very correctly phrase the letter saying, you know a lot of tax. Well it's not tax money. A lot of city money has been spent on this equipment and with the rate of vandalism, we need to protect our investment and we'd like to take it out for a few years and see how it affects the usage of the park and then re-evaluate. See what happens. Hoffman: There is a difficulty in managing that park. If we imagine the playground equipment is gone, then all we have is an open field and a parking lot at a dead end and what is that saying? What have we delivered to the community? A dead end party spot. Franks: Well I'd like to turn that area into the free dog range. This is part of my master plan. Once it's no longer being frequented by children, it creates a more safe area for people to have a free dog range area. And when you think about Herman Field and how it's kind of down in a bowl, it creates a real natural area to go out and train your dogs or let them run. Hoffman: Think of master plan.., lucky to get that one through the neighborhood. Take the playground, give you the dogs. Lash: Well don't mention that in the letter. No long range plans. Hoffinan: I want bold thinking. That's bold thinking. I always thought of the dog park having to be in line the colnmunity center, if we had one, but we really don't have a nice open field ill our community center. Herman Field... Herman Field is a good lesson in what you get for nothing is not always. That park came to us for nothing. Lash: What you get for nothing is usually well worth it. Berg: Are they still having all the problems with vandalism even though they've increased the neighborhood watch and they went through all of the training and, it's still a problem? Hoffinan: They call a lot. They call Deputy Potts a lot... Lash: Well we may have to have some creative thinking about what then would happen there. Maybe that will be a COlmnunity garden or something. Who knows? Hoffman: Thank you. Lash: Okay. So you don't need a motion on this? Okay. Let's move on to the recreation programs. RECREATION PROGRAMS: EASTER EGG CANDY HUNT. 16 Park and Rec Com~nission Meeting- April 24, 2001 Lash: Corey's not here but he's got his reflection here on the Easter Egg candy hunt. Anyone have any comments to pass onto Corey on this, besides me? Moes: I think the, let's see the Easter Egg. He captured it, which was not the list the various start times for the different age groups. Really just announce the one start time. I know the one thing | noticed, it went very well. We got there on ti~ne and I had one in the 0 to 4 group and one in the 9 to 12 group, and then it was the 5 to 8 so I mean, it was done in 15 minutes. What I did discover though is as we were walking away, along with all the other people, that some people were just starting to come in anticipation of the 10:30 start time for the, or 10:40 start time for the 9 year olds so. Ruege~ner: Yep. Yep, we beard a lot of feedback on that. Lash: So they were late? Moes: Yeah. Lash: So you guys didn't stick to the schedule or what? ttoffinan: No. Lash: Okay. But you know this is, this has been an ongoing problem. And I mean it's made a full circle because 1 think before we didn't have times listed and then people would come and they'd miss it. 1 mean there's always people that. Ruegemer: That's why we always had extra candy around for people that did miss it. We kind of did our own little thing afterwards so I mean we tried to address all the angles and we're not going to be putting any times on the flyers. Moes: Because I think, I mean last year and then this year I mean it was, it was all done within 20 minutes. So it's not like there's a long lead time for anybody. Ruegemer: We had to come to the realization that people are there. They don't care about the Splatter Sisters. They want the candy. Berg: Chocolate. Ruegemer: As long as the commission is okay with that, that's the way it is. Lash: 1 guess that was my...with the Splatter Sisters. I mean it's been very popular so do we want to, you know screw around with it and go with something new or stick with what's? Ruegemer: Oh I think for a little variety it probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Howe: There's always a big crowd in there. Ruegemer; Oh, they're very popular. It's just as far as, you know are we getting caught in a rut? I mean good kids groups like this are kind of hard to find too. Lash: I was going to ask if you need suggestions, there's a couple. 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- April 24, 2001 Ruegemer: Definitely. Lash: One is called the Flyers. Ruegemer: The Flyers? Lash: A husband and wife team. 1 think they're local. They're very good. And have lots of participation. A lot of songs the kids know. And Trisha and the Tunes. Ruegemer: Yeah. Lash: Have ~ve had them before? Ruegemer: Oh yes. We had them 3, 4, 5 times but I think Corey had called her and she was like big time money. Lash: Oh, so she's made it big. Ruegemer: It was like $800 or $900 i think it was. Hoffman; Hit the big time. Lash: Well we're having the Splatter Sisters come to my school... Ruegemer: I mean they're great. They're wonderfi~l to work with. They've very friendly and very receptive. Lash: The Teddy Bear Band is popular too but they've been around a long time and. Ruegemer: That's something too that we can talk to our local sponsors you know, for the sponsorship program. Byerly's do you want to, we've done that before. Where do you want to underwrite the cost of the band? And a lot of them will do that and then we can splash their name. Lash: Or who's the guy that goes to the ACC, Mr. Jim or something? They have him right at the end. Does that ring a bell with you? You don't probably read your... Ruegemer: Jim Miller? Lash: No. Isn't it Mr. Jim or Mr. Jimmy or he does a concert. ! can't remember, but it sounds like he's from a popular. Okay, and then I, being the early childhood educator that ! am, I would strongly encourage you to drop the idea of adding a 2 and 3 year old age group to the coloring contest. Just because, just because I would. 1 think if you start with 4, that's plenty early to ask a kid to try and color and stay in the lines. Berg: I thought the same thing. Lash: And having judged many years I would say to go with the age, on the coloring sheet. The age on the front. The name on the back. 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Ruege~ner: Well, I do agree with you but my wife couldn't even follow simple directions at my house so here I am with whiteout. Lash: Whiting out the name? Because she put the name on the front? Ruegemer: Yep. ! had a little word with her but, she's pregnant. You can't reason with a pregnant woman. Lash: Yeah, try and help get her straighten out before your daughter starts kindergarten would you please. Franks: There is physiological truth to that statement. Lash: Well l just had...chicks today so I'm hormonal. We also did paper mache. Berg: Okay, good job Corey. Lash: Okay. Sounds like it was fun. 4TM OF JULY CELEBRATION UPDATE. Lash: The next thing is 4th of July and oh my gosh you got Dippin Dots. Ruegemer: We got Dippin Dots. Lash: I read that and ! let this, go Corey. Ruegemer: Corey put that first. Lash: I know. I know. I can't wait. Come on 4th of July. Sounds great. Ruegemer: The 4th of July is rapidly approaching and Corey's been working very hard on getting concessions. As you see Todd just did hand out kind of the vendors that are secured and will be there. There's I think 10 vendors. The Rotary is not on here and they'll be doing refreshments and beer. Corey's just in the process of kind of getting that together at this point but we do have some interesting varieties of food. You can review that at your leisure and let us know if there's any other things that you would like to see on there, but it does seem like there's a wide variety and hopefully with dinner types of items that will spread the lines out. That's kind of what our hope is and, there's only one ice cream vendor but Dippin Dots, but we'll see how that works. Lash: There will be a great, big long line for that. Ruegemer: But that's just kind of an FY1 for the commission. Corey did do that today. I was kind of interested as to where he ~vas and he's doing a great job of getting those vendors secured and we're going to keep, we're going to get the Chanhassen Boy Scouts out of the main area of the tent and put theln out on the street to free up tent space. We're working on the Rotary as well. It's hard when you get a big tractor trailer in there as far as the beer and that sort oftbing but we're working on making things flow better within the side of the tent. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: I think, didn't we make a suggestion last year, and I'm sure you have the notes, but of moving tile prize board to the back or something? Didn't we, so that it wasn't right in the center. Right, with the noise and traffic and that kind of stuff, and then also be sure for the beer thing that they set it up in some kind of a square where they can have 4 tables going and accommodate people more than just in one line, and they should maybe invest in more pitchers. Did you hear that? More pitchers. Ruegemer: More pitchers? Lash: More pitchers. Franks: Oh people were, you could buy pitchers from people just to get one. I mean you had to pay them. Lash: You know and if they want to put a little you know, deposit fee. You'd have to pay solnething for the pitcher the first time when you get it and then you'd get it back when you turned it in or whatever. However they'd want to work it but it would save a lot on that many people going up there if you could buy a pitcher. Franks: And don't go with fewer Port-a-Potties then you had either. Definitely. More would probably be better. Ruegemer: Do you guys like the hand sanitizers within, inside? Or is that not a big issue? Lash: ! don't touch anything when l'm in there so I wouldn't want to touch a hand sanitizer. You would want to touch it? Ruegemer: The hand sanitizer? Lash: Yeah. Okay, well just think about it. Okay, who's hand just touched it right before you put, you know? Berg: Well then you wash the hands and open up the door with the 25,000 people that haven't used the hand sanitizer. So it's a moot point anyway. Lash: Yeah, you just kind of use your elbow for everything in there. I don't know what you guys use... Berg: Talk about party expert. Lash: I've been married 21 years. Manders: You can be part of the entertainment. Ruegemer: lfyou look on the back here it says, it's our new schedule of events and anything else you'd like to see. We're kind of the, Corey and I didn't really talk about the kind of physical arrangements of everything. So we're just trying to make it all work with where our power source is. lfwe stretch vendors all the way down City Center Drive to the west. Where we need some additional power kind of down that way so we'll be working on getting that arranged and figured out so. 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: And then I know every year we talk about this, trying to I don't know, get a local church or the PTC or the Snowmobile Club or whoever is interested in fund raising to set up some carnivals. Or 1 mean, not carnivals. More games, more carnival gaines. Now they're always looking to make money. It'd be an easy way to make some fast money for PTC. Franks: Well was the hockey association successful last year? Ruegemer: They made some money doing what they're doing, but I know Susie Blank just had another baby not too terribly long ago so I don't know how committed she would be but it's worth a phone call. Lash: No, even if the PTC from Chan. Franks: I was just saying if they were successful that'd be like an example of how to do something that was really entertaining. I mean that was busy all night long. Lash: What did they have? Ruegemer: A goal with hockey players and then you try to shoot the points in the goal. Lash: But when you think of PTC, they already have fi'om the family...that they have you know and all the, I mean they already would have so much of the stuff and they probably have an extra supply of leftover prizes and everything that would cost them practically nothing to set it tip and they would lnake hordes of Inoney. Hoffinan: We'll get a list of contacts and we'll send a mailing. Lash: For Bluff Creek too. Ruegemer: Clarification. PTC. Lash: Pareut Teach Child. PTA. PTO. What do they call it here? Ruegemer: You know I think we've explored that possibility in the past, and I thought there was with the summer break. Hoffinan: It's just always tough to get people on July 3rd. Really tough, but we'll send a letter to those organizations. Lash: Check Bluff Creek Elementary too and see. I don't know who's. Hoffman: All the clubs. Lash: Or Girl Scouts. And then do we have the, because ! don't see Jacob's Ladder on here. Did that go away? Ruegemer: No. That can happen. Lash: Okay. And how about Bingo? Didn't we kick around setting up Bingo too? Oh wait. Oh yes, usually St. Hubert's is up for that. ! think that's who used to, or the Rotary used to do it but St. Hubert's 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 used to have it at their big chicken fry thing. Again, easy way to make money. How about tire people working on Roundhouse? Ruegemer: Roundhouse? Lash: No, l'm not kidding you. l'm not. You know, they could go to some outfit and either rent a bingo set-up or. Hoffinan: You have to have a license of some sort. Ruegemer: It gets into the gambling commission. Hoffman: But they could do something else. Run games. Lash: They could even have a little booth set-up you know by, and make a, I don't know. Whatever they can come up with. Hoffinan: Roundhouse game. Lash: Okay. Sounds fun. Manders: S~nall question. How much do we spend on the Casa Blanca? Ruegemer: Oh, it's like 35. l think it's at $3,500. Lash: Do you think that they charge more because it's a peak night than say like if they just went and did a gig some Saturday night at some club? Ruegemer: I do not know. We can ask. Hoffinan: We'll call Chaska. See what they just charged. Lash: Yeah, because they were just there in December and there just weren't that many people there and we sat there that night and thought, how can this place pay them $3,500. They had to have lose money with what they're charging cover charge was 5 bucks a head and there's maybe 100 people in there tops. So 1 thought they, not to say that they're gouging us because I enjoy having them but I just thought it was kind of interesting. Hoffman: I can't believe you didn't get that information right that night Jan. Lash: I did go up there and I talked to tire band after but I told them 1 was a groupie. Hoffman: Chanhassen groupie. Lash: Yes, that's exactly what | said. Okay, anybody have anything else? Berg: I've got a comment but I'm not going to say it. ADMINISTRATION: SKATE PARK. 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Hoffman: Thank you Chair Lash, members of the commission. Tile skate park is again this season just incredibly popular. We've been dealing with random incidents there. With mostly inappropriate behavior. Kids hassling other kids. Provoking fights. Under aged smoking. Those types of things. The litter issue just almost exploded the weekend that the park opened so Monday morning people went to work. They came to City Hall. They went downtown, and I spent about the first half of my dad consoling people that thought this was the worst thing we ever did on the face of the earth because our downtown looks like.., calling and stopping in and they just couldn't believe how we could operate such a facility that would generate so much trash. Lots of good ideas obviously and what I came down with is that, to be successful the users really have to take some responsibility for the facility. I've threatened to take it away. Taking it away. Fencing it off: Doing those type of things. Sure, I could take it away. It's going to, tile trash is going to go away but it's not what the skate park is about. Tile skate park is about providing a service to an under provided for group of our citizens in our community. So I wrote the letter. I sent this letter via e-mail. I don't know, you probably received it ill the e-mail. It was published in tile Villager. I received 3 calls from residents thanking me for writing tile letter, having some of the same feelings. For about a week then I went over there on a daily basis, handed the letter out the participants at the skate park and they started talking to each other. There has been some increased level of care at tile skate park, but it certainly has not stopped tile problem. Saturday morning, Sunday morning there's still plenty of trash. Jerry was out there cleaning it up. I was out picking it up this past weekend. So if you got up there on a Saturday morning, there's no park maintenance personnel on staff. Tile trash is laying out. Generally, right on this bank right here where the people drive by near the school or church or the post office and it doesn't present a very good impression of the skate park and the kids that are using it. So they recognized that. These other issues have been handled either by Jeff Mexter, the CSO. No surprise that the deputies are not paying a great deal of attention. As much as we request that they do, it falls fairly low on their priority list and they'rejust not spending ti~ne there. Not to critique or criticize the contract, but that is one of the things that you lose when you contract for public service. If these were town cops sitting in the town city hall, ! think they are going to pay more attention to it than a user progrmn such as the skate park. So that's the realities that we face. We continue to receive increased heat about the skate park and the activity levels there. Many of these kids come from out of town and l don't particularly think that's a bad thing. In fact the supermarket over here things it a great thing. You probably generate about 15% of their revenue. So it's a popular event. Very positive for the most part. The one thing we can look forward to is that as Shorewood and Eden Prairie, Victoria bring on their skate parks, it's going to disperse the use. Just FYI, the reviews on the Victoria skate park, which is Ramp Tech which is cheaper. That's why they went with it, have not been good. The kids do not enjoy skating at Victoria. The ramps are very small and that's the reason they're less expensive, if you recall Ramp Tech had a lower bid for the second phase of our skate park. Shorewood is very close to putting their park in. Chaska's experiencing problems with their skate park, even at a higher degree than our's because of it's isolation. Where it happens to be located. Lash: Where is this? Hoffinan: Lion's Park. Down in tile east end of town. So I place this on your agenda simply to keep you up to date and to ask that any ideas or manage~nent philosophies that you may have. One thing we're talking about, maybe bring this forward. One thing we're talking about is fencing, continuing that fence line around this just for security. The steps will go in. The covered shelter area will go in for adults, spectators. And then in the winter we don't have to put a temporary fence up. We just close the gates to the fence that is there. By completing the fence, if we choose to do that, it also creates two entries so bikes and the other apparatus that are finding their way into the park are more difficult to get into. It's easier to say, right there at the gate you post bikes are not allowed. That what causes some of the tension 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 between the users that are there. Kids that want to protect the use for the inline skates and the skateboards and then the bikes show up and they start hassling each other. Hey, no bikes. Get the bike out of here and stuff. The kid on the bike is bigger, there starts to be some conflict there. Lash: Would there be, l'm just thinking out Ioud...but would there be some type ora warning, like a written warning system or something that we could try and implement just so that, and | don't know who would write them out. It could even be posted as rules or something, that if you see people violating and you want to rat them out, call city hall and rat them out and we'll write them up a warning and say, you know it's been reported that you were using the park inappropriately and if we see your name coining through again, this will be referred to you know, I don't know. Some kind of power or, 1 don't know. Manders: Like put up a camera and photo cops. Hoffman: Yeah, it's the identification that's going to be the biggest thing because the people that are going to call are going to be the 15 year olds and once they get called on it, they're going to call on six of their other buddies so. Berg: The worst is going to be the parents that get upset because their little kid doesn't have the same opportunities that the 15 year old has. Manders: I mean it's just like the bus. You know they put a camera on there and do you have more respect or less chaos on the bus because they thing the camera's there when there is no camera? Berg: Usually there isn't. Manders: But I mean if you did out here, you'd have something to. Lash: But you don't know who they are. Manders: True. Hoffman: You don't know who they are. You have to back it up with action and nobody's going to sit and watch you video tape for 8 hours. Berg: 1 don't think we can make a threat that we can't follow through on. I'd like to see us complete the fence. And if things get out of hand, just say we're going to close the park for a week and if it happens again we're going to close it for 2 weeks. And you have to start policing the area. When | was up there, I was first of all incredibly impressed with the caliber of the people. The skateboarders. Holy mackerel. I'm happy to stand up. I mean they were doing just incredible things, and there is an etiquette. You were right. You said that a long time ago. There is an etiquette to how they do these things and when they let the kids go and all that and they had taken one of the blue barrels and it was not chained anymore so they were doing barrel jumps, and | went over and ran, they were smaller than me so | could intimidate them and l just said, you know you're not supposed to be doing this and all that. Well it was here. And ! said well it's just not supposed to be done. And so 1 set it back up and they were very nice and 1 sort of stalled around and waiting, looked around the corner and they had left it where it was supposed to be and all that. There was just a lot of litter. I didn't hear any of the swearing. I kicked some bikes off. There were 3 kids on bikes that had to leave but I didn't hear the swearing and the other things as much as it was just hard to skate sometimes because of all the litter. Especially on this end. I ran into a parent when I was leaving and she tried to tell me that she would be happy to coordinate a parent volunteer 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- April 24, 2001 group that would self police tile area because she was concerned that her kid wasn't going to get to come up here anymore. Hoffinan: That's one of the more popular ideas. Berg: I told her in as nice a tone as | could, that I didn't think it was a very good idea. Just because parents do a lousy job of policing. They're the worst at chaperoning dances and everything else because they'll take care of their kid, but they're never going to go up to another strange kid and say, would you please not do that because they're intimidated by kids. Most adults are. Many adults are. So 1 told her I'd suggest that and 1 can even give you her name if you're interested in talking to her sometime. She said she'd be happy to organize it, but | was trying to be as gentle as possible in suggesting that it's not a very good idea. Lash: Yeah, but if they could just write them up. They wouldlft have to confront theln. Berg: Well even if they could just be there, maybe that will make the difference. Maybe they don't have to. They didn't know who I was and they were very respectful to me. Maybe,just having an adult there would work. I don't know. if they want tis to get involved and start writing things up and then whatever, I don't think they will. But maybejust being there and walking over and policing a little bit and saying hey~ do you want to help me with this or whatever. And then just, if they don't take care of it, close it up. That's what we do with our kids at home. If you don't do what you're supposed to do, you lose the privilege. Franks: I had ail idea along the same line. That if the neighborhood watch is successful, skateboard watch is something along the same model. Although it's used so heavily throughout the day and every day, that having someone there all the time is not really viable. But if we could have it developed on intermittent schedule, which is tile schedule which reinforces behavior to it's maxinmm, which means that there's no real defined schedule when the neighborhood or skateboard watch person shows up. it reinforces the behavior that that person is trying to institute more strongly than a defined schedule. Hoffman: Yeah, it's 112 hours a week that the skate park is open. When it first got going there was a lot of talk about a CSO should be there. We should schedule for that. A park police person should be there, because if you put I or 2 volunteers there, i would think it would have to be 2 volunteers. Most of these kids recognize that I'm somebody coining out of city hall when I go over there and most of them that you approach, because they're having problem behavior, could really care less and they're there to take you on because that's just where they're at in their life. Similar experience with Councilman LabatL Hennepin County Deputy Sheriff. Big guy. Approaches these kids and says you know I think it's about time for you to leave and their response back well, I don't know who you are that's going to make me leave this place but I'm not going anywhere mister. And until he pulls his badge and says well if you want me to pack that up with the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office, I'll go ahead and do it. You get, you don't get a response that you want out of the disciplinary action. And so if we have a parent group, what are we going to do? They're going to have cell phones or radios there and consistently be calling for back up. There is a tendency in that atmosphere, when you go over there, that they escalate their behavior. Franks: My second thing is, I would agree with the fencing because it creates a defensible space by having it completely enclosed and that's one of the other things in urban planning is when you have problelns with space and unwanted behavior and you create a defensible space and fencing is one thing that does that. 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Howe: It's not a lot of the kids. It's a small minority I would think, right? Everybody might litter but. Hoffman: Last week we had, there was kind of a fight brewing and then some alcohol, but not at the location but kids that had been drinking and then Jeff Mexter and the CSO handled that and it left that site and went off to another park site and there was some, kids were taken in and some things confiscated and stuff. Some of that stuff happens and it's kind ora focus for a little while. Franks: My third idea was that periodically if things don't clear up, the fire department could inadvertently while cleaning out their pumper trucks have a mis-spray issue. I'm thinking that would cool things down. Lash: You mean while they're in there? Franks: I'm sorry? Hoffinan: Yeah, if we fence it we have a very definable point of entry where you can post messages that are easily recognized. Manders: Is the trash stuff, is it where they're taking barrels and just dumping stuff out or it's not even getting to the barrels? Hoffinan: A little of both but mostly it doesn't get in the barrels. Berg: Mostly it's just sitting on the ground next to the barrel. Lash: Inside the park itself, or is it all over everywhere? Hoffinan: It blows all over. Lash: But if it's fenced in it wouldn't blow all over so, then they have to skate around it. Eventually that gets to be not fun. Hoffinan: That was another idea. Just let it pile up. Berg: That's another thing this woman was saying that she could help maybe coordinate or whatever is get some volunteers to go up there and just clean it in the mornings. She said she goes up there at 7:00 in the morning so that her kid... Lash: Yeah, let's make sure all the parents are going up there and cleaning up the trash after these kids, yeah. Hoffinan: Scheduling. Lash: Yeah, you post a sign and say. These are some of the issues we're dealing with right now. If these don't stop, it's going to be closed for a week. Berg: A week to clean it up. 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Franks: I'm hesitant to get involved in starting a power struggle with groups. Howe: How else you going to do it? I don't think there's any other choice. Lash: That's not a power struggle. That's a natural and logical consequence of their behavior, lfthey want to use it, there's minor things they have to do. There's very few rules they have to follow. I know you're the psychologist. Franks: l'm not saying not to go there, l'mjust suggesting that. If there are other options to try before engaging in. Lash: Hose them down with the fire truck? Berg: Well I think there's ways to present it. Franks: Cool them down. Berg: There's ways, tile way you present it can maybe help avoid tile power struggle too. If you come on like a storm trooper, they're going to react that way. But if you come on with a velvet glove and appeal to, you know there are consequences for our actions. We don't want to do this any more than you do but. Lash: We've been experiencing. I mean your letter, ! mean we've been experiencing difficulty with litter. What else? Howe: Profanity. Lash: Profanity. Manders: Fights. Berg: Inappropriate actions. Lash: Fighting, you know whatever. And our goal is to keep this open for you, and if your goal is tile same as our's you'll follow these simple rules, lfthese rules are not followed, the following consequences that it will be closed. Hoffinan: One of my fears is that tile individuals that choose not to act appropriately are also ones that don't react very well to making the threats and then you. Manders: They'll do it just to close it. Hoffinan: Well yeah, you're affecting tile majority which does not have tile problems in all attempt to, as society change behavior of the minority which, it's a tough spot. Lash: But then you've got a lot of peer pressure there too. Franks: Well anti social types don't really care too ~nuch about peer pressure, i mean maybe there's a way to assert peer pressure and you, you're out there and you see kids behaving appropriately in Subway 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 or McDonald's or some of the other businesses that are benefiting from the skate park by keeping skaters off their sidewalks and bothering their customers and out of their establishments, you know kick in with tbe coupons like they do for the school kids and it's like hey, you know what you're doing a good job out bere. I saw you tbrowing away your trash. Here's your 6 inch sub coupon. Tell your friends. You know this is what happens and ! mean there's, I'm just, 1 would like to spend some more time. !fit gets to that point where you know more drastic type behavior is needed that we. Hoffinan: Just since this little campaign there has been some increased peer pressure and the fringe kids will be affected by that. The ones that are easily swayed back towards the positive because these kids, once they get this in their hand. They read it and the ones that were there yesterday and the day before that got it, they all go oh, we know what that is. If we don't keep our park clean they're going to close it down. Moes: I heard Todd you mentioned fights and then alcohol related, what age group was this? I inean was it a wide age group or was it. Hoffinan: Oh probably 17-18. Moes: Okay, so there are 17 and 18 year olds that are frequenting the park now? Hoffman: Sure. Moes: Is that becoming a bigger percentage of participants? Hoffman: That's another good question is, 1 would think we may want to make that a no smoke environment. No smoking environment. Just propose that role. Berg: That should be an automatic. Howe: Yes, absolutely. Lash: Inside the fence. Well yeah, because it's all kids in there isn't it? Hoffinan: Well there are adults skating in there as well. Lash: Well they can step outside if they need to smoke. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS: None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET: Lash: I noticed we had a blast from the past here with Eric Rivkin pesticide. Hoffinan: Yeah, isn't that something. Still out there. You notice the soccer fields going away? Franks: Yeah. 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - April 24, 2001 Lash: Thank you for sending tile note to tile environmental colnmission. Hoffman: You're welcome. Lash: Did you hear anything frown Jill or anyone? Hoffman: They just had the, those brush days are overwhehningly, just very, very busy. Lash: But it sort of makes my point doesn't it? Hoffman: Sure does. Berg: Did we send a note to Instant Web thanking them for all the years of letting us use that area for soccer.9 Ruegemer: I don't think we have done that yet. We certainly cml. Berg: I think that would certainly be nice. Lash: Do we have any kind of other official so~nething you can send? Berg: In this day and age it's nice to have a corporate leader who's community concerned. Lash: You know like if we had a nice aerial picture of their place that they wouldn't have or. I don't know. a plaque or somethiug... Okay, anyone have anything else'? No? Okay, is there a motion to a4journ.9 Berg moved, Moes seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffinan Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 29