CC Minutes 10-11-04
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Judy Schmieg: Mayor, did you say now is the time to speak?
Mayor Furlong: Yes ma' am.
Judy Schmieg: On an issue that will come up later.
Mayor Furlong: No, now would be the time to come forward. And that way we can be
sure to address your issue when we get to that point on our agenda. So if you'd like to
come forward now.
Judy Schmieg: My name is Judy Schmieg. I live at 200 West tih Street and for the new
business, I just wanted to take this opportunity to ask the council to not to sell the parcel
ofland at the Goddard School plot. That it's very important, we've done a lot of work
and I understand that this property has not been sold. We were told at the Planning
Commission, is that correct? This property has not been sold.
Mayor Furlong: I believe we have signed a purchase agreement, have we not? That was
conditioned upon site plan approval and other conditions that are typical.
Judy Schmieg: Justin, I believe it was you that told us at the Planning Commission this
land was not sold. That this is still our land.
Justin Miller: The property has not been sold. Title still holds with the City of
Chanhassen. They have a purchase agreement so it's just like if you have a purchase
agreement with a house.
Judy Schmieg: But can you back out of that?
Justin Miller: 1'd have to refer to the City Attorney for that.
Roger Knutson: Mayor, there are a number of contingencies that have to be satisfied in
the purchase agreement, but if they're satisfied we've obligated to sell the property for
the agreed price.
Judy Schmieg: So if this property was condemned, can they just go out and sell it
without offering it back to the original owners?
Roger Knutson: Yes.
Judy Schmieg: Okay. So once it's condemned, that doesn't make any difference. They
can condemn it and resell it.
Roger Knutson: That's correct.
Judy Schmieg: Okay. Because I had heard different but I'll check that out later. The
other thing then is what you're telling us is you sold our land without asking us or even
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
giving us an opportunity to do anything about it when it's a very important piece of
property. It was told to us that it would be a park. It would stay as a historical district
and I think the Planning Commission asked the staff to look for where we would get that
idea that it was a park and stuff, and what did you find?
Justin Miller: We did check. We did not find any records of any City Council action
saying that it would remain a park or a historical area.
Judy Schmieg: So you didn't find anything Kathryn? Oh, okay. Well I found something
even though it was like 2 days. This kind of thing, it was talked about building on the
history and about the, the Chanhassen historical town, how St. Hubert's Catholic Church,
Cemetery for the nucleus representing 19th century, blah, blah, blah. It will be a park.
That is one thing and I can show you that later. And then there was also work done. It
says that the actual work on two roads will begin within the next 2 weeks. The city plans
to build 22 foot clock tower in Old Town Square. Will also be created between the
relocated original city hall building, St. Hubert's church constructed, this is going to be
the first of our park. It goes on to state that they're putting in a grand, or a clock. A
village clock tower. The location chosen for the clock tower is a pocket park at the east
end of the village center. I have like 6 more that I could find. I really feel bad that staff
doesn't care enough to at least try to find out why the city residents are so upset about
this. We did a lot of work to get there.
Mayor Furlong: If I could ask you to address the council with your comments rather than
staff, thank you.
Judy Schmieg: Well, I would like you to let the staff know that the city residents, it's
kind of disappointing that you really care. And again, as representatives of the people,
why are there 160 signatures in 2 days when we hear about it that all of a sudden you
have sold the land and 160 people don't know anything about it and don't want it sold.
Not to mention there are more than 160 people that don't want it sold. That's a 2 day
thing. And we worked so hard to keep it as a historical district and by putting in a black
top roof you know, shingled black wood shingles to, the whole center that covers up the
church and you don't have to worry about seeing so much roof line because the trees will
cover everything up. That was not the intent of that piece of property. And we did buy
that property. We paid for it. Why you're selling it for $600,000 when I think the council
just sold 4 Yz acres, which is 4 times that land for a million, I mean it can't be financial
because it doesn't seem like you put a lot of thought into you know where the money was
going to. But this piece of property is important to a lot of people and to the town in the
long term. Not the short term but the long term. And we've been trying to find out how
do you keep it. How, we're the residents. We own it. You're the representatives. Why
is this working so poorly? That the communication when all of a sudden it's sold and got
a project. You know and it's got a purchase order and we have no say about our little
piece of property. That's the only piece of historical property and someone mentioned
there could be a pioneer monument or sculpture or something. It is nice to have a little
park with a bench or whatever. That was the purpose of this sidewalk and that
connecting, and I would like to know how I can get that little piece of property to stay in
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
the community of Chanhassen and not have a daycare or anything else on this little piece
of property that technically belongs to the citizens of Chanhassen. So I'm going to ask
you, you just tell me what it would take to keep this piece of property.
Mayor Furlong: I don't know that I have that answer right now. In terms of the process,
I know this council has been looking at that property, I'm trying to remember when the
Grill and Chill, Chill and Grill first came forward. I think that was early 2003.
Timeframe, first quarter 2003.
Todd Gerhardt: About 2 years ago.
Mayor Furlong: Was it? You know not having the advantage of the articles that, or
whatever you're referring to ma'am, again I think the EDA as an economic development
authority.
Judy Schmieg: Which is the council.
Mayor Furlong: That is the council. That always hasn't been that way but that is the way
it is now. And it acquired that land when? Maybe Mr. Gerhardt, could you give us some
history on this.
Todd Gerhardt: Sure. We purchased what we called the Pony/Pauly/Pryzmus site in
probably the early 1990's and the intent was to try to redevelop the area. We brought two
development proposals back to the City Council. I believe one was a retail development
with housing. That was denied. And then the Grill and Chill was the last, and that was
denied. We believe that the daycare is a better use for this area. It's not retail oriented
that would create a lot of traffic. You would see traffic probably early morning and later
in the afternoon, and probably none on the weekends. So the intent was always to try to
create more activity on that end of town.
Judy Schmieg: That surprises me because you are quoted in here too that just another
piece I'll pull up because there's tons of it around if you look for it. History, you know in
downtown kind of thing. Heritage Square which covers the old village hall stands as a
symbol of the City of Chanhassen's history. City officials and planners see the area
where St. Hubert's is a rice resource and have it planned as a historical section of town.
We have been told over and over that this would not, if you for 2 years have been looking
at Dairy Queen's or daycares or whatever you've been looking at for 2 years, it seems to
me you had an obligation to say to the people we're taking away this piece of property
from you. And that just would be from a common, you're representatives of the people.
Why is it the people did not know for 2 years and until we found out that there's approval
on the daycare.
Todd Gerhardt: There's never, Mr. Mayor, there's never been a plan for a park. The
articles that you're referring to are the articles which are Heritage Square Park, pocket
park that's there right now. It's the brick pavers with the trees inbetween St. Hubert's
and old village hall. There's detail plans in our engineering office. It was a part of the
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
downtown redevelopment. There were limestone pavers put in there that you could etch
individual's names in those with exposed aggregate outlining those areas. And
landscaping beds on both the south and the west side of the Heritage Square park. That's
what those articles were talking about. When we purchased the buildings, we came in.
We demo'd them right away so we didn't have activity with the youth or whoever may
get in there and do vandalism that we experienced at the bowling alley property for the
year and a half that we owned that. So there was no rush in doing the redevelopment.
Like I said, we brought two development proposals back. It did have resistance from the
neighborhood on those. I won't you know hide the fact. They're in the minutes. But at
this point staff recommended that a daycare could fit into this area with the parochial
school across the street, St. Hubert's, the old village hall. It kind of blended in with the
development and that was our discussion at the EDA level.
Judy Schmieg: I would like to comment on your development level and stuff when that
Pauly complex was brought in here, I guess they called it the Pryzmus or whatever but
when that was purchased, the roads, 10 1 at that time was not going through there, or
Great Plains Boulevard excuse me, was not going to be going through there because all
the plans and everything would show it, that was one of the original. The road went
through and the clock was set up and stuff and that stayed historical district and it didn't
have to be approved as a park that the park department had to take it over because it
wasn't big enough. And it wasn't going to have any required... and a bench, and that was
the extent of the park so there was no need to go to the council and have a park take over
that piece of property as a park. But like it was called a pocket park, like you mentioned,
that is everybody assumed, not assumed. Knew from all the articles and told over and
over that that is a historical district and that will remain that way. Now, my problem is
up to this point all of a sudden here we are and I need to know how, what we can do to
keep that park. That piece of property belongs to the citizens and they have worked very
hard through all of these developments that you've done, that we were at one time going
to have a new building... swimming pool. Another community center...
Todd Gerhardt: No, I remember.
Judy Schmieg: It was in the paper...
Todd Gerhardt: I lived through it.
Judy Schmieg: So other than that development...I care a lot about having that history in
this town that worked hard, a lot of people to do that and these must be something where
we can do.. .to maintain our piece of property.
Councilman Lundquist: From a, just from a council and EDA perspective, we do
appreciate your passion and, or I appreciate your passion in that. However, you have a
lot of articles and things from the past but these proposals have been out there as well.
The Goddard School has been in front of us, the councilor EDA at least 2 or 3 times.
They're published, everything's published in the newspaper. The plans have been
published in the newspaper prior to the EDA meetings.
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Judy Schmieg: Can we speak at an EDA meeting? They told me that that is, EDA was
not the public forum. Like I tried to attend the EDA meeting.
Councilman Lundquist: EDA meetings are open to the public.
Judy Schmieg: Can you speak at them and have an opinion to decide what to do?
Mayor Furlong: Yes.
Judy Schmieg: So everybody could have come to the EDA meeting. I went through the
papers for the last, I think 3 or 4 months, 5 months maybe. I went through every single
paper looking for anything that had that Goddard on it and did find EDA was, there was a
proposal, a Dairy Queen I think or something else but as far as knowing that you were
going to sell our piece of land, I didn't see anything that said people, we're thinking
about selling that and turning it into retail.
Justin Miller: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Furlong: Mr. Miller.
Justin Miller: April 14t\ Wednesday, April 14th I'm looking, 2004, Chanhassen Villager.
Title of the article, Development Proposal for Historical Downtown Site. It outlines the
Dunn Brothers coffee shop as well as the Goddard School. Thursday, August 26th.
Judy Schmieg: I got that. Now from April to August, so what do we think happened
inbetween there. Did you... what happened.
Justin Miller: Yes, I'll tell you what happened. In April there was a meeting.
Judy Schmieg: No, I mean the public. Did you put that in a newspaper that the public
knew what happened April 14th. I mean did we know. I really wait until I thought was,
is how the procedure works. You are representati ves of us.
Mayor Furlong: Absolutely. Absolutely ma'am, and I think at the, and correct me if I'm
wrong Mr. Miller. At the April EDA meeting, that's when the EDA or the council sitting
as the EDA was first presented with this as a concept. You know to sell city owned
property to the Goddard School and at that time they were looking at both Goddard and
Dunn Brothers. That's changed. Dunn Brothers is out of this proposal. As a concept and
as an EDA did we think that it was worthwhile for the staff to continue to discuss and
negotiate the sale of that property with individuals that are building the Goddard School.
So what transpired between April at that meeting when it was first proposed to us, and
our August meeting is that the staff and the private parties were looking at negotiating.
They were working with our planning staff to look at possible site plans and those types
of things so that's what was transpiring during that time.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Judy Schmieg: .. .any importance or responsibility to the citizens with big letters to say
we're going to sell that piece of property people. Nobody felt any responsibility to let the
people know. Now EDA is not usually open meetings, and again maybe the new ones...
Mayor Furlong: Oh, quite the contrary. They're an open meeting, absolutely. That's
why they're published. You know I think ma'am the issue too is that there's a legal
requirement for public notice and Mr. Attorney, correct me if I'm wrong, okay. And then
there are other things that can be done. One example is I believe for, and correct me if
I'm wrong here, on a public hearing we're required to notify residents within 300 feet.
As a city we extend that voluntarily to 500 feet, so there are ways that we can do that.
The issue here is, while there's public notice, we also benefit from and rely upon the
Chanhassen Villager, our local newspaper to sit in and report upon the actions that we're
considering and looking at. Okay? And that's where we get some articles and that's
usually where we get phone calls.
Judy Schmieg: Yeah, I never found an EDA meeting update in the Villager or.
Mayor Furlong: I think what I was referring to ma'am was that after our April EDA
meeting, is that when that first article was written Mr. Miller?
Justin Miller: Yes sir.
Mayor Furlong: Yeah, that's one way to let people know.
Judy Schmieg: .. . anything until August, what did you say, the 14th or something? Okay,
now let me focus back. I need to know what can we do and it's not just me. I mean I
have the 160 signatures for you and we can get you 500 but we need to know what it is to
keep our land open on that piece, on that corner.
Mayor Furlong: Well I don't know that I have an answer for you. I heard the attorney
say we've entered into a purchase agreement which has multiple contingencies in it,
correct?
Roger Knutson: That's correct Mayor.
Mayor Furlong: You know. If you want, I don't know if you can address her answer.
Roger Knutson: What you can do is express your opinion to the council but they've
already signed a purchase agreement and if those contingencies are satisfied, we are
legally obligated to sell the land.
Councilman Ayotte: I'm going to, I'm not going to hold back. I've got to add
something. We have not put anything under a hat. This council and EDA has been forth
right the entire time. This is the first time I've seen you at a podium ma'am. And I've
been here every other Monday night and I've attended all the EDA meetings, so if you
have had a concern or if anyone else has had a concern, minus the e-mail I recently
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
received, I have not heard from the community on this point. So I appreciate Brian's
polite approach to it, but 1'm going tell you I don't appreciate being said that I don't
represent the people up here. I've worked darn hard for it and I don't think, in all due
respect, that that's a position that I welcome because we have done due diligence. We
have, I've talked to the Villager about this particular project. They have put articles in
the paper about this particular project.
Judy Schmieg: I read the articles in the paper.
Councilman Ayotte: Well for you to come here after the fact puts us in a bind. We are
legally bound to respond to the people who have offered to buy the property.
Judy Schmieg: My problem with you is, it is after the fact. How do you think we feel
about it? If there was something at the EDA that that should be, 1'm not talking about
little stuff. This is a big thing and if you were representing the people you would know
the people out there want to keep that piece of land. So if what you're saying doesn't fit
with the actions.
Councilman Ayotte: Madam, I've received one e-mail, and it was just this week.
Judy Schmieg: And that's because we just heard. That's what we're trying to tell you.
We didn't do this because we didn't show up before. We really didn't know. How many
people know what an EDA, and they go to all the meetings to find out what the city's
doing? EDA's used to be closed. They now are open, and if there's something on the
EDA that you want to address you could come and I would guess you guys would listen,
but all I'm saying is, if you do represent the people, this would have been a big deal with
a lot of articles about the property, selling that piece of land. It could be used for
anything. It could be used for a daycare. It could be used for anything as long as it
complies with the no restriction requirements.. .because they weren't ever going to
develop it. So then the city setbacks and all of the requirements and every other piece of
land in town. How do we stop the sale?
Mayor Furlong: Okay, I guess, we made, you keep asking that question. I keep telling
you, I don't have an answer for you that.
Judy Schmieg: But you have to.
Mayor Furlong: No ma'am.
Judy Schmieg: But 1'm here.
Mayor Furlong: Absolutely. Absolutely, and for you to just say that the EDA meetings
used to be closed and now they're open. That's a step in the right direction. As
Councilman Ayotte said, there wasn't anything hidden here. Was there a delay between
when we were working on and responding to requests and when you and some of your
neighbors found out about it? Perhaps. I find it difficult to think that any time the EDA
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
wants to consider selling a piece of property that the city owns that we're going to have
to notify by mail all the residents in the city because.
Judy Schmieg: Why? Why can't we know?
Mayor Furlong: Well, because, and you said yourself, you said yourself that we
represent the citizens. We are a representative democracy. What that means is, is that
not everybody will know about everything that's going on all the time, and what we do is
try to stay informed as representatives. Listen when people call us and e-mail us, and try
to do the best we can representing the citizens. Are we going to do that 100 percent to
your's or to anybody else's liking all the time? Absolutely not, and we're going to try to
make best decisions as often as we can. In this particular case it looks like you disagree
with the decision that the EDA made. How's that for stating the obvious? Okay. The
process is an issue and that's something that I was talking to Mr. Gerhardt about today
after looking through the packet this weekend about the, you know there was a mis-step
here. How do we improve that? We may not be able to do it for this one particular
property, but how do we improve it going forward? I mean we need to have.
Judy Schmieg: ... public hearing meetings on developing that site. What happened to the
public hearing on this item? No. It never happened, did it?
Councilman Lundquist: The public hearing for that property occurred at the Planning
Commission.
Judy Schmieg: There was never a city public hearing. Planning Commission informed
us they can't do anything other than.. . abide by the rules. So we waited, when was the
public hearing for the city? It didn't happen.
Councilman Lundquist: There was an EDA meeting ma'am, and part of the
responsibility, as the mayor stated in a democracy is also to keep yourself informed. As
the mayor stated. It wouldn't be feasible or prudent for us to mail out to every citizen
every time what happens. Articles were in the paper. We had several meetings about
this. It's not been a secret and although I feel for your issues, this is something that
people should, you know you, I feel like you had plenty of opportunity to be informed.
Judy Schmieg: We can't. We didn't know.
Councilman Lundquist: Sure, it was in the paper. There was several times and as the
mayor stated, you know maybe we have some room for improvement but I would suggest
that for all of our residents, you know it's also your responsibility to keep yourself
informed to a certain degree on what's going on.
Judy Schmieg: I think I do. Justin, have I been up to talk to you? Have I kept informed
then with what you did with the bowling alley?
Justin Miller: Yes, you did.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Judy Schmieg: Okay. And have I called Sharmeen? I have.
Mayor Furlong: And I think ma'am, and why, it sounds like you're very informed. The
bowling alley's probably a good example here in terms of the proposals that came to the
EDA and the... ultimately deciding which property, which developer we would sell to and
then working with that developer to get it done. The process for the bowling alley was
the exact same process used for this property.
Judy Schmieg: And that was very poor because people came in with good proposals with
Walgreen's and everything, and like you said, if you got informed you could you know
like call Justin and find out what was going on. But at the end, the council, the EDA, the
HDA, whatever you want to call it, they approved it back to the Bloomberg for the
fifteenth time and a million dollars which is what we paid and sat empty because the wall
was connected and the property was small. It was not a good process for people to say,
do you want a community center in town? Do you want a Walgreen's? Do you want a
swimming pool? The people did not have a say about that. I watched everything that
went on with that. And that didn't work, so let's not even go to the bowling alley...
Mayor Furlong: No, but the reason I go to the bowling alley is because the process was
the same. Now if you disagree with the outcome.
Judy Schmieg: That's different.
Mayor Furlong: That is different.
Judy Schmieg: There was no meeting. ..for that bowling alley.
Mayor Furlong: Well I think there were.
Judy Schmieg: There was nothing.. .Justin you said in August they were going to close
in August so hurry up between May and August and do it. Then it didn't close for a year
and so.
Mayor Furlong: Ma'am, on this particular issue, I understand that and we don't want to
go back and re-live everything with the bowling alley, but I use that as an example of the
process was the same and if people could get informed and influenced members of the
City Council and the EDA between those meetings, that's the time to do it. You ask are
people allowed to speak at the EDA. I will tell you right now at EDA meetings people
can speak.
Judy Schmieg: Okay, then you're saying the forum for future stuff is go to, whenever
you see it in the paper that says EDA meeting, then go there and voice your opinion? But
the EDA was decided to sign the purchase agreement or whatever already when you got
to that meeting, they were ready to sign it. Is there someplace back farther? No.
Because it had to be there when they signed the purchase at the EDA meetings.
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Justin Miller: What I'm saying was in April there was a meeting where the council, we
provided a concept to the EDA. That concept had a Dunn Brothers coffee shop and a
Goddard Learning Center. That was a concept. At that meeting the EDA told staff to
pursue further options on that property. They did not sign a purchase agreement. They
did not do anything with that property at that time. After that time there was coverage in
the media so people should have known that there was a chance there could be
development on this site. Between April and August there was plenty of opportunity for
people to contact staff. For people to contact their council and say that they did not want
this to happen. As far as I know, I did not receive any.
Judy Schmieg: When was the purchase agreement signed?
Justin Miller: That was in August.
Mayor Furlong: After the August meeting. Okay, thank you ma'am.
Judy Schmieg: I'll let somebody, if anybody else wants to talk. You haven't answered
my question on that. What I can do to stop it because the attorney is saying that it's.
Councilman Ayotte: Answer her. There's nothing you can do at this point.
Judy Schmieg: Yes there is.
Councilman Ayotte: No, there's a purchase agreement that's signed.
Judy Schmieg: .. .contingencies, right? If they do not comply with the contingencies,
then the purchase falls through. Correct? If they do not comply with the contingencies,
then the purchase falls through. Then do we have a chance before you sign again or give
them another, what is it, year and a half to get the purchase agreement signed? Do we
have a chance then? If they don't comply. And maybe they've turned to the developer,
you can tell us.
Mayor Furlong: Well I think I've told you. I don't have an answer to that question.
Well, I like to answer everybody to their satisfaction but I don't have an answer to that
question.
Judy Schmieg: Give me any kind of an answer. Give me at least some hope. You know
I'd settle for. . .
Councilman Lundquist: Make an offer to the Goddard School to buy it for more than
they have and they might consider selling it to you.
Mayor Furlong: Alright, let's move on if we can.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Judy Schmieg: One other thing. Can we ask the city to buy it back? We're citizens.
Even if you don't think it's a good idea and the citizens did, it's our money. Could we
buy it back from Goddard?
Mayor Furlong: Ma'am, okay. 1'd like to keep the meeting moving. Thank you.
Dick Mingo: Good evening. My name is Dick Mingo. I live at 7601 Great Plains
Boulevard. About 3 short blocks just north of your site that we're talking about here and
1'm the gentleman that mailed the e-mail to you folks. I did receive an answer from Mr.
Lundquist and Mr. Ayotte. I tried to get back to you about 3 times but I kept getting your
answering machine and that's as far as I got, but anyhow. I've lived here for 47 years
and I started playing baseball about 4 years prior to that in this town because I knew I
was being drafted and come over and played for the old Chanhassen Red Birds because I
was a baseball nut and I still am. And I just want to point out that I worked for the
Minnesota Twins and have for 15 years and travel all over the upper Midwest putting on
baseball clinics and as a result I've covered hundreds of thousands of miles driving
through small communities of Minnesota and some of the things that interest me when I
pass through a lot of these little town, the little scenic churches they have and some of the
little scenic parks they've got in their little communities. I just think that you've got a
gem sitting over here. You've got a church that has been registered as a National
Historic site. My brother-in-law happened to be the instrumental fellow to have that
done, who by the way is a past city attorney for the City of Eden Prairie. In fact his law
firm still has that job. And I just can't believe that we want to cover that up. Now I get
the answer well, you can still see the steeple. Come on. Leave that thing the way it sits.
It's the only green space left in old town Chanhassen. It's a small area. I can't believe
the fact that we want to put a building on that thing. You're going to be right up against
the sidewalks. The parking is going to be very, very limited, and you say there's plenty
of parking spaces but they're going to be dropping the kids off in the morning and
according to Goddard School people here at the meeting last Monday, the people must
bring their kids into the building and then you must take them out. That means that
you're going to have to stop and come in and get the kids. Take them back or whatever.
In the meantime be driving around that circle and back on the street. I live on Great
Plains Boulevard and I know that the school that we have there, the private school, if
you've gone by there, my gosh the traffic there is unbelievable at times. And that's fine,
but we don't need more traffic there. And then I also hear this deal about a drive thru
coffee shop over in that area. You've got to be goofier than my cousin Hugo to even
think about that but that's my belief. So I just think this is a great site. It's kind of the
gateway to Chanhassen. People could come into town and see that. You've got the
Dinner Theater right across the street, which by the way also has a lot of traffic at times
and they have matinees there. So those things should have been taken into consideration.
Now I'll ask our attorney, you say there are contingencies. I can't believe you don't have
a contingency in there that with the approval of the City Council and everything else
that's involved. Isn't there a contingency for that? And that would stop the project. She
was asking, how do you stop it? Right there you've got a stop I would think, and I can't
believe you don't have a contingency in all of those little papers you sign.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Judy Schmieg: If that's true, answer him.
Dick Mingo: The other thing, that property was condemned. Those were businesses. I
get a kick out of you saying you still wanted to add a little life to that end of town. Hell,
when Pauly's bar was there, it was the life of the damn community and county. Wayzata
was dry. Excelsior was dry. Deephaven was dry. Everybody around came into this
town. Even people from Hopkins where they had liquor. It was a great area, but that's
gone. And Ijust, I can't believe that we're going to allow condemn property. Eliminate
a business that had been there since 1934. It's still the only business, liquor store that
started when prohibition ended. Russ Pauly who took it over, my nephew, wanted to get
into the bowling alley and we let some yo-yo over there go for a couple years without
paying his liquor bills. Not paying his taxes. And we kind of bumped Russ out of town.
Hell, he's married and got 3 young kids. He had to go to Chaska and he's got a very
flourishing business down there. He should have been here. In the bowling alley.
Paying taxes. Instead we fiddled around and blew that but again that's another story. So
I just think that we're being very, very foolish here and we're not looking at what we
have here. We've got a nice gem sitting there. And I guess I can't add too much more.
The lady ahead of me pretty well was on your case real well but the other thing about the
building, the play areas. There's going to be a play area on the east and the west. The
one that's on the east side's going to be sitting right on the steps of the church and the old
city hall. Boy, isn't that scenic beauty? Isn't that, doesn't that give us an aesthetic value?
Playground on this side. We're going to come down the main drag where we could be
looking at that nice scenic site and there sites another playground. And by the way, those
playgrounds must be the size of a postage stamp. I was a school teacher and a coach for
30 years and I can't believe you're to, I know they're going to be little peanuts in there
but boy they'd better be real small because those sure are small areas. So you guys might
have done your homework, and by the way, I guess I'm another yo-yo. I did not see
anything in the paper about this but I guess I just don't read everything right down to the
last paragraph in the paper so I too have to say that I was unaware of this until 2 weeks
ago when I found about a lot of this being, or taking place. I guess that's my comments.
Thank you for your attention.
Mayor Furlong: Great. Thank you sir.
Councilman Ayotte: Thank you sir.
Tom Lentz: My name is Tom Lentz. I live at 404 Santa Fe Circle since 1969. I too am
against the development of this green area. I have some copies here of some stuff I want
to share with the council members.
Councilman Ayotte: Sir, 1'm sorry. I didn't hear your name. Could you say it again?
Tom Lentz: Tom Lentz, L-e-n-t-z.
Councilman Ayotte: Thank you.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Tom Lentz: I pretty much agree with everything that's been said so far. Just listening to
it I think something that is obviously of historic significance like this. It doesn't appear
to me that the government or the councilor you folks did anything extra to make sure that
the public would be behind this. This isn't like some other development. It's obviously,
it's in a historic significant area. With this information I have handed out, it pretty much
even talks about it back when it was done in '89 and '87. I pulled these out of the Carver
County Herald. One says, revitalization plans also include the construction of the old
town square where the 19th century church and the first city hall, the white clapboard
structure stands. The brick plaza will serve as a meeting place and unified for the old
town structures. Then there's another article about children discover pioneer life at Chan
Heritage Park. So if anything it's obvious to me that somehow the system failed. We're
at a point now where you're saying you don't have any choice but to approve this
development. It's obviously it shouldn't have happened. I don't know, it doesn't appear
to me that Chanhassen has a heritage or preservation commission that should be
reviewing things like this. Obviously I don't know if the other commissions take that
role, the Planning Commission or who but from a heritage point of view, has anybody
looked at anything like this before you make a decision? And is there any obligation to
do that? I know at the federal level, the federal government cannot relinquish any land
until a complete study is done about any type of a significant heritage or ecological type
significance the land may have before they can release it. So that's a question. Was
anything like that done?
Councilman Ayotte: You asking a question sir?
Tom Lentz: Yes. The commissioners, any of the other committees or commissions in
town have the responsibility of looking at the.
Todd Gerhardt: There's no requirement as a part of the site plan of this. It's a vacant lot.
Tom Lentz: I would highly recommend that the village consider putting that in on
sensitive land like this.
Councilman Ayotte: There is sir, and I did ask, I want you to know that I did ask the
question of staff. Inquired largely due to Mr. Mingo, who I believe probably played short
stop incidentally. Is that a good guess? Did you? No? I could have swore. But that the
State Historical Preservation officer usually cuts on these sorts of things and I asked
specifically if this piece of property was registered with the SHPO and the response that I
got, staff obviously does it's research in this area, was no. It was not a part of a historical
registration. This particular piece of property.
Tom Lentz: Have we had a historical society, preservation society, they would have
probably recommended that it be, into that, and would work with SHPO and made it
happen.
Councilman Ayotte: I tend to agree with you.
15
City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Tom Lentz: Also I included a picture, a couple of snapshots that I shot and the bottom
picture is what we see today when we come down West 78th Street. We're not going to
see that anymore once that building's there. That's going to be gone. And the loss of the
aesthetic value is significant. It's devastating. We have something here that is just very,
very special and we're at a point where it's just not going to exist anymore. Now I'm one
of the probably 160 people on that petition that did not know this was going ahead until I
seen the sign. But I'm only in Chanhassen about half time during the summer and I came
home one time and I seen that sign and I said what's going on? And so I can say that also
the energy was to get names on that petition, you know if this was an election, the guy
would have won by 99 percent. There was nobody that was approached, except I think
one person that didn't want to sign the petition. Everybody, and it wasn't oh, okay I'll
sign it for you. Everybody had high energy for it so it's obvious that there's a whole
bunch of the citizens that don't want this to happen and weren't really aware that it was
going to happen. And again I think this is different than any other development that's
going on in the city because of the historic significance and also the precedent that was
set. With all the articles we read through the years, I always assumed that this was a
park. I didn't know that this land was going to be sold and marketed so.
Mayor Furlong: I guess one point of clarification, if I may, and the information you read
out of this articles speaks of the old town square and the brick plaza to serve as a meeting
place. Just for clarification, the site plan that we're going to look at later this evening
does not change at all the brick plaza.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Mayor Furlong: The square in front of the old village hall and in front of the church.
Okay. It's the grass area where the, there were buildings before? That's where the
restaurant.
Todd Gerhardt: No, that was a road.
Mayor Furlong: The road went through.
Todd Gerhardt: 101 went up through there and then right where the westerly landscaped
plaza or planter bed is was the wall of Pauly's Bottle Shoppe. And then as you worked
your way west there was the Pryzmus office, apartment building and then the Pony
Express was on the corner. And just for note, we did not condemn those 3 businesses.
They were under threat of condemnation but it ended up as a purchase agreement with
each of the 3 entities so we did not go through the full condemnation process. So I just
want to make sure everybody understood that.
Tom Lentz: That's just a formality. I mean, if Russ wouldn't have sold, you would have
condemned him.
Todd Gerhardt: It was under threat, correct.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Tom Lentz: Yeah, I read an article. I didn't copy that. I did read an article that talked
about the fact and he was, it was an article about him closing the business and selling out
because his property was condemned according to the article.
Todd Gerhardt: Yep, and we tried relocating Russ in two different locations in town.
Over in the Kenny's building, which was not successful and also the bowling alley,
which he could not enter into a successful lease with the current owner of that building.
Tom Lentz: And another problem with, if I could add is I spoke with Clark Horn who sat
on the council at that particular time and asked him his recollections. And he said that
the council contemplated a number of things to do with that land. One was to make it a
park, so that was talked about. They also talked about later on making it a library or
senior center. His feeling is that they decided not to make it a park because the city
square, the area, they said we had a whole block there that was going to be enough land.
Mayor Furlong: Which is the new City Center Park, is that?
Tom Lentz: Yeah, but now that they put the library there, he says it's more appropriate
that that should have been left a park.
Todd Gerhardt: And we had those discussions mayor and the library footprint covers
almost the same square footage that the parking lot and the old bank building sat on. So
if you take the brick pavers and the green out there today, you have as much green space
as you had when the old bank was there and the two empty lots to the west.
Councilman Ayotte: Could I ask a question?
Mayor Furlong: Certainly.
Councilman Ayotte: On the picture that Mr. Lentz presented, has this green space always
been green space?
Todd Gerhardt: No. There were 3 buildings there. The Pony, Pauly...
Mayor Furlong: I guess that was my question.
Councilman Ayotte: This, I just want to, from a reference point, this green space that's
pictured here had buildings on it before.
Todd Gerhardt: That's correct. Two bars and a.
Mayor Furlong: I thought that was my question.
Councilman Ayotte: I didn't understand.
Mayor Furlong: No, I'm glad you clarified that because I heard something different.
17
City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Tom Lentz: You know there's another thing I'm going to add to it. You know we
basically moved Great Plains Boulevard. It went in front of the church. And that gave us
access and view of the church but we moved it to the west. Now we're going to put a
building up basically to block the front, the visual front of the church from any street.
It's not unlike what happened with the new gym over at the old St. Hubert's school which
blocked the views of those homes of downtown. There used to be a street there. Got
vacated. They put the gym up and I think there's got to be some consideration taken. I
mean architecturally in planning again a historical area, or whatever you're doing there. I
mean there's some visual aspects and aesthetic values of these buildings and stuff and my
view is that, and not being taken into consideration and being ignored and we're going to
lose some value here. Some aesthetic value here that we'll never, ever recover. And as
time goes on, it's going to look back at the decisions going to be looked back at and say,
boy that was really dumb. Just like we look back at...that tears down some of their own
structures. Because a lot of those structures that were in Chanhassen when I came here,
that would I think, there's a lot of people that wish the historic value was still there. As
Chaska's been fortunate enough to keep some of their old buildings and, but Chanhassen,
we haven't had that foresight so.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you sir.
Councilman Ayotte: Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: We're still in visitor presentations. We've been talking about this for, I
didn't look when we started but probably 45-50 minutes so, if there's any new
information on this topic I would certainly invite somebody to come forward but from a
discretion standpoint, if it's simply a repeat or continuing to emphasize, I'd ask that we
try to delay that.
Ron Roeser: I don't know if I have anything new for you.
Mayor Furlong: If you could state your name and address sir.
Ron Roeser: But I'm sure that, I'm Ron Roeser. I live at 222 Chan View.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you.
Ron Roeser: I'm sure all of you own this and have read it and I'm just here to plead the
case that you keep that property open. This book contains the history of a church were
most of the citizens of the little village of Chanhassen were baptized, married and buried.
It's a church whose bells rang out to celebrate Christmas and other holidays and the
ending of two world wars. There's a history in here of the goings on of the small village
down to the very cost of the building of it. It's a village hall where my grandfather, my
father and I all served on the council at one time. It is the village hall in which the only
protestant in town served as the mayor for many years. It is the village hall were the first
summer recreation program originated. $500 ran the whole program. It is the village hall
18
City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
where people like Gene Coulter, of Coulter Boulevard and the Lyman Brothers, Lyman
Boulevard, got together and decided to merge with the township so that we wouldn't all
become Chaska. Then we have the depot from which many people commuted back and
forth from the city. Mail and farm products were delivered and taken there. The area we
are concerned with was the heart and the beginning of what we now know as the city of
Chanhassen. The business district at that time consisted of Pauly's grocery, Pauly's bar,
the post office, the State Bank of Chanhassen and Joe's Place. It was Joe Meuwissen's
place where you could get an ice cream cone or a shot of whiskey. Everyone was
welcomed. You could even get a haircut there. The State Bank of Chanhassen, after
Saturday you won't believe this but the State Bank of Chanhassen was owned by Elmer
Kiln, a friend of Franklin Roosevelt and Hubert Humphrey. Elmer was one of the
founders of Minnesota Democratic Farmer Labor Party. If you look across the street you
see the Chanhassen Dinner Theater. The Dinner Theater signaled the beginning of what
today is modern Chanhassen. Once Herb Bloomberg came to town, growth was
inevitable. And that's not a bad thing. But just remember that it all started right there in
that little square of land. Those of us here, and we have signed the petition, ask your
reconsider and not put a building on this lot. A city cannot have too much open space
and this is an open space we should keep and develop in some other way. Thank you.
Jack Atkins: 1'm sorry, just a few minutes. Jack Atkins. I live at 220 West 78th Street.
A couple blocks east of this site. I'm curious first of all, did I get a letter? Am I within
500 feet? While she's checking on that, I guess the first thing I'd say, to prevent this
from happening in the future is any commercial development, you should probably
extend that to at least 2,500 feet. I think you can tell from the comments made that
there's a few hundred of old Chanhassen people here that are feeling that they got bowled
over with development over the past 20 years. You're getting some of those expressions,
a feeling about that property now. That was my father-in-law that just spoke. He was
baptized at that church and my wife was baptized at that church. I guess the issue for me,
living that close to that property, and I don't think that I did get a letter.
Kate Aanenson: No...
Jack Atkins: I did not? I heard about a Dunn Brothers and a daycare center and I thought
oh, how quaint that would be. I didn't realize that the building was going to have a roof
surface area that's larger than my entire lot. I think that the Goddard School's a very nice
school and it's a good concept. I think it belongs in Chanhassen. I think that they're
trying to put a square peg into a round hole in that facility. That they're going to put a
massive building with a huge roof and a, it's going to be entirely fenced in. I realize you
guys can't do anything about it. I would urge Goddard School to consider some more
appropriate lot in Chanhassen. Maybe on the frontage road along Highway 5 would be a
lot easier access for them and I would hope for Judy Schmieg as a last ditch effort here,
that they would consider doing that and if they did consider doing that, that the council
would allow them to get out of their purchase agreement. That's all I had to say, thank
you.
19
City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. We're still on visitor presentations. This is again an
opportunity for others to come forward to discuss other issues. Ma'am, if I may ask.
Judy Schmieg: I'm waiting...
Mayor Furlong: Okay, but we did already spend a lot of time with you so we'd rather not
have people speakjng 2 and 3 times. Okay, thank you.
Judy Schmieg: That's very welcoming, which happens to us all the time. Why can't you
listen to us?
Mayor Furlong: Ma'am, all I was saying is, we spent a lot of time.
Judy Schmieg: .. .ourselves, if you feel the same way, we don't want anything repeated
and don't come up again, why can't you listen to us? This is pretty important to us.
Councilman Ayotte: Ma'am, if you think it's important why don't you give us a chance
to talk. Why don't you have a seat and let's see how we can resolve some of these issues
instead of dropping a bomb and leaving. Why don't you have a seat so we can finish up.
Mayor Furlong: Just so there's clarification here. Ma'am please. We're still in visitor
presentations so this is a point in the council meeting when we listen. I know there's
been a lot of listening going on, okay. We are going to, and the reason you're talking
now, we are going to address this issue on our agenda. We've got another thing
inbetween here that we're going to take up and then we're going to address this as part of
our site plan approval. So that's why.
Judy Schmieg: But I don't know where to address you. You people think we know.
Nobody does. I thought it was visitor presentation. Then I have to keep my mouth shut.
And the question I'm still have, Mr. Mingo asked the attorney if the council doesn't
approve this, is that one of the contingencies and I did not hear the attorney answer it.
And I just want to be sure that's answered before you start. It's frustrating. Okay, I'll go
sit down.
Mayor Furlong: I want to make sure we have an opportunity to.
Tom Lentz: I have one, sorry I have one question based on what I heard. I'm not sure
how the city government works but if you had made a decision that notices were going to
go out within residents within 500 feet, for public comment, and you in fact did not do
that, or get them out to those people, does the process start over again? At the federal
level I know it does. In other words if you made, the council made a decision that the
public would be noticed by within 500 feet and you didn't do that, and now you have to
get those notices out and start the process over again.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is that our practice or not? The 500 feet, and I think.
20
City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Kate Aanenson: I don't think he's within 500 feet though...
Mayor Furlong: Okay. So part of what we have in our packet I believe is a statement, an
affidavit from our city clerk with regard to the public notice. Is that correct Ms.
Aanenson?
Kate Aanenson: I'm sorry.
Mayor Furlong: Doesn't Ms. Engelhardt usually include a distribution?
Kate Aanenson: It's inside. It's in your packet...
Mayor Furlong: So the affidavit of the mailing notice.
Kate Aanenson: Attached.
Mayor Furlong: And I, ladies and gentlemen, I'm trying to be as accommodating as I
can.
Dick Mingo: Just one quick, 500 feet away from that area, I'm an old football coach too.
That's only 165 yards. Hell, there's only a couple houses within the 165 yards of it. The
rest are all businesses.
Mayor Furlong: Alright. Okay. Is there any other items with regard to visitor
presentations? Otherwise I'll close visitor presentations. Hearing none we'll close
visitor presentations and move on with our agenda. Thank you. 1'd like to invite forward
now, we have both Chief Geske and Sergeant Olson. They requested to come before the
council this evening and give us an update on the President's visit this last Saturday from
a security and fire safety standpoint so gentlemen. One or both. Whichever you prefer.
Sgt. Jim Olson: Hello. It was an honor for me over the weekend and last week to be
involved in the planning for the Presidential visit. The cooperative effort between city,
county, state and federal agencies were incredible, and that certainly helped with the way
that thing came, or the way it came off and as smooth as it did. There were over 170 law
enforcement officers from 21 agencies that were involved in this, and that doesn't include
the federal officers that were there. During the event itself we had 21 calls for service in
the city from practically 9:00 in the morning until 5:00 in the afternoon. 10 of those were
related to the event. Only one of those was an assault of a person wearing a Kerry t-shirt
and there were 2 citations that were issued for that event. That was after everything was
over and everybody was walking away. Inside of the event itself there were 7 medicals.
4 missing children and there were no arrests at all. It was an incredible event to be
involved in, and it went very well from law enforcement standpoint. I have to give praise
to the Chanhassen Fire Department with the way that they handled everything, and also
city staff with the planning that was involved with setting that up so. Any questions for
myself regarding that event at all?
21
City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
it so it's a once in a lifetime thing for me so I guess 1'll remember that and 1'll get a
picture but thanks.
Mayor Furlong: Great. Congratulations. Thank you. Let's move on now with our
agenda.
REQUEST FOR SITE PLAN APPROY AL FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A
8.068 SQUARE FOOT SCHOOL BUILDING; LOCATED AT THE SOUTHEAST
INTERSECTION OF WEST 78TH STREET AND GREAT PLAINS BOULEY ARD;
THE GODDARD SCHOOL. FRED RIESE.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Judy Schmieg
Joanne Meuwissen
Rick Engelhardt
Mel Kurvers
Julia Prinz
Thomas Lentz
Curt Robinson
Gladys Hanna
Ron Roeser
Franklin J. Kurvers
Rosemary & Dick Mingo
Jack Atkins
Brandy Geiger
Fred & Valaire Riese
David HeItner
200 West 77th Street
201 West tih Street
403 Santa Fe Trail
7240 Kurvers Point Road
408 Santa Fe Circle
404 Santa Fe Circle
202 West 77th Street
1321 Lake Drive West
222 Chan View
7220 Kurvers Point Road
7601 Great Plains Boulevard
220 West 78th Street
1016 W. 9th Avenue, King of Prussia, PA
9154 Sunnyvale Drive
7201 York Avenue So #1306, Edina
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. Location as you indicated is West 78th and Great Plains,
just on the other side of old village hall.
Councilman Ayotte: Kate I'm sorry, you're going to have to talk a little louder.
Kate Aanenson: Old village hall. Next to old village hall and old St. Hubert's church.
This is a highly sensitive area. Discussion tonight so I just want to reframe a couple of
things as we kind of move through this before I go into the staff report. This is where the
village hall sits. That was that pocket kind of a park area that Todd was alluding to
earlier that was discussed in some of the reports where the brick pavers are and the like. I
did want to talk a little bit about historic district because that came up. I believe the year
approximately 2000 Sharmeen AI-Jaff and Cindy Kirchoff on our staff undertook a
process of working through some historic designs for this part of town. As planners we
always try to be leaders in looking at some of those areas that we think we need to go,
just like we were bringing back to you. Some multi family design standards as we see
25
City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
that as an issue as we're moving forward. They spent a lot of time photographing the
buildings in town and were moving forward to come up with some design standards
regarding character in this neighborhood. As we moved along, there a majority of people
that asked that we not proceed with that and it was dropped. Also in the background,
when we moved Highway 5 as a part of the environmental assessment document for that,
there was the old historic depot and the city manager and myself at that time met with the
State Historical Preservation because we thought this would be maybe a possible place to
put that and their recommendation is that if it's a historical building, it should be sited
correctly. The village hall is not cited correctly because it's sitting at an angle and not in
the right spot so for historical significance it does not qualify. We did locate the depot
according to SHPO, the State Historical Preservation standards so it does qualify because
it's next to the railroad tracks and we worked very hard with the Bloomberg companies
and the Dinner Theater to work to get that. So we are very sensitive to that issue. It took
a lot of work to get it located there and it is correct and historic in that location so.
Councilman Ayotte: Can I ask questions or should we wait?
Mayor Furlong: Do you have a preference?
Kate Aanenson: That's fine if you want to ask, while I'm on that.
Councilman Ayotte: The orientation to the building that takes it out of the parameters of
being a historical site, why was it moved?
Kate Aanenson: The village, I can't comment on that location of that.
Councilman Ayotte: What was the error that caused that?
Mayor Furlong: If we can, let's let staff try it first.
Councilman Ayotte: Give it a shot because you've got a lot of help here if you can't get
it right.
Todd Gerhardt: Unfortunately I lived through that event and the old village hall was
located behind the Pony/Pauly/Pryzmus building. There was no uniform parking for any
of those 3 buildings. Most of the parking was on street or behind the buildings in a dirt
parking lot. As a part of the downtown redevelopment we tried to create a uniformed
parking theme throughout the downtown. Old village hall sat basically where the
garbage dumpster sits right today in that parking lot. So as a part of the redevelopment
they took old village hall off it's original foundation and placed it where it is today, and
there was a lot of debate. You may remember this, when they put it at an angle. We
went through a lot of meetings. People upset that they set it at an angle and BRW were
the engineers at that time and nobody knew, it was kind of going to be at this angle but it
stayed there and that's how we got it today. People would have preferred to see it
parallel with the park, but that's how old village hall got to where it is today. Any
disagreement?
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Kate Aanenson: Anyways, back on point on the historic, because I just want to touch on
it briefly because I think all these treads are going to kind of weave together. In meeting
with the State Historic Preservation Office, their concern, and I'll use the exact term that
they told the city manager and myself is they don't like to see a zero effect. They want
things correctly placed as they were. Not that you put it in, crunch it all into one area and
call it a historic zone but they want things placed correctly if they're historically
significant. So the historically significant building certainly is the church in this area and
as a staff, one of the things that we've always worked at as far as planning this area that
we believe calls out, that you're in a different area because that's what we try to look at,
is that we place buildings closer to the sidewalk. Medical Arts building. St. Hubert's
when the addition, we asked them to come closer to the street because you enter and you
have that sense of you're in a different type of area. The old town. Again, that different
feel so that's always been kind of the underlying, and again the central business district,
what this is zoned, has a zero setback from the front line and that's what we've included
along this corridor. Again, to give a different feel. A sense of arrival as you come in
from that direction. So I just wanted to frame that up. Again, this property is zoned
central business district. It is guided for commercial and that's how we've always looked
at it. In looking at developments on this property. All of our other parks are zoned parks
open space and are also guided for parks and open space so they have a different zoning
or land use designation. So that's how it's being looked at today when the property
comes in. As the city manager did mention, there has been numerous applications over
the time as the city's looked at, even when this proposal came in there was two and staff
worked hard to say you know, just two aren't going to work on this site and dropped
down to one to really make it fit into this so the original proposal that did come before the
EDA did have two and it was too intense on the site. Certainly we agree that fast food
didn't work so how we got to this type of a use is we felt, as the city manager indicated,
the fact that it's 5 days a week. It's quiet on the weekends. It works with the existing
church that's using the old St. Hubert's. There's shared parking so we thought it was a
good compromise as far as the fact that it's all brick and they've worked hard on that so
that's how we came down to, from the planning side to look at the recommendation. So
with that I'd like to spend a little bit of time going through the site plan itself. Just a little
bit more background. The Planning Commission did review this. Again, their job is to
decide whether or not it meets requirements of the ordinance so based on their
jurisdictional review of this, they did recommend approval of the site plan based on the
fact that the site plan met the requirements of the zoning district. So with that, 1'll pass it
around in just a minute but it is an all brick building with aluminum. It called off the
shingle detail, the high quality. Again we were concerned about the materials in the area
so it's a very high quality building. The one concern, as was mentioned was the brick.
The orientation of the building, we did spend a lot of time working with the Riese's. Just
for your background too, we met the Riese's. The staff worked and were they surprised
that we put a park and ride in their back yard so they've seen development on both sides.
When we met with that neighborhood and worked through a 3-4 month process to get the
zoning in place for a park and ride with some multi family housing so they've
experienced development in their back yard and putting in someone else's. Kind of
seeing both sides of the spectrum here. In looking at the orientation of the building we
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
looked at different, how the building is sit regarding the fact that they do need playground
areas. We also were concerned that we wanted a front door presence. That we didn't
have a back door facing the street because again we wanted the appearance, just like we
asked Chapel Hill to put windows, that we have that street frontage like you'd see in a
traditional downtown. While it's nice to have some of those thing, I grew up in
Excelsior. I can comment on the changes and the struggles that they have in the core
downtown trying to keep businesses competing with Chanhassen. We want to have that
presence on a street so they worked hard to get the orientation. While there's not a front
door, they do have a back door that's the operable one but a full front so again giving that
street presence. The building is recessed in order to make the grades, the parking lot does
slope away so the building is recessed 4 feet as you get towards that street. There is a
retaining wall there. We also worked to get, what we believe is a highly decorative and
those plans are in your packet. Wall, fence, wrought iron with brick pilasters that match
the building itself. Again highly decorative which we think is higher quality again. And
again the playground structure is mostly grass but there is a padded area for the
playground itself. On either side of the building, and that meets their requirements for
the State for the playground area. The roof was one issue that we struggled with. This
would be the view looking towards the church. Again you can see that on the model. We
took these pictures of us using the model so that's where they came from. It wasn't
submitted by the applicant. That was just the staff itself trying to get understanding of
the orientation of the building itself. One of the things that we were concerned with is,
when you have a lot of the HV AC, they like to keep that in their building too so the roof
itself, the pitch was lowered but all the HV AC, the heating ventilating equipment, is all
put into the roof itself. Again, keeping some of that stuff off, giving a more aesthetic
look to the outside. One of the issues that came up with this neighboring property Remax
is the shared parking lot. Was that they wanted to see, so they had a better movement
through there. Through the parking lot is that this is an existing curb line that we tried to
move that curb line. I think that seems amenable to both parties to provide them with
access because they also use that driveway. I think with that.
Councilman Ayotte: Kate, could you go back to that previous picture where you show
the relationship of, zero in on that. Okay, thanks.
Kate Aanenson: Again, that's based off the model. That wasn't, that was just taken right
from our scale, and we did ask them to provide that. We wanted that for our edification.
Understand that too, the setbacks and the height. So with that, unless there's any
questions. Staff is recommending approval with the conditions in the staff report and I
would be happy to answer any questions that you have.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for staff. Councilman Labatt.
Councilman Labatt: Kate. You had talked about, about this property is zoned and guided
central business district, commercial and parks are zoned parks open space accordingly.
This purchase, or this property was purchased in the early 90's, right? If I remember
right.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Councilman Labatt: When was it given the guiding of CBD?
Kate Aanenson: It's been that way.
Councilman Labatt: It's never been zoned parks.
Kate Aanenson: Not since I've been here. 1've been here 12 years, it has not. Correct.
Councilman Labatt: It's never been zoned parks open space.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Councilman Labatt: And we've talked about the other potential purchases and the stuff.
I remember sitting through a meeting, and 1've been here 7 years and 1've never, you
know nobody's ever come up here and said don't sell that property. The church came
into us and looked to expand that property too at one did. Expand that church.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Labatt: And they came in with a big plan, and I don't recall hearing
anybody come and say don't do it then. You know, they had actually taken the old city
hall building and moved it to the west end of the property.
Todd Gerhardt: It never went through site plan approval.
Councilman Labatt: No, but they came with, so there's been all kinds of things that have
come before us. But I just wanted to share that one other one that looked to expand.
That was the only question I had. Just on the zoning I think right now.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Other questions.
Councilman Ayotte: What was the population? How many people got letters on this
thing?
Kate Aanenson: It's written in the report.
Councilman Ayotte: I know it's in the packet but just, I want you to state how many
people got letters. You should know this by memory.
Mayor Furlong: No she shouldn't.
Kate Aanenson: 21.
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Councilman Ayotte: 21, okay. And with respect to this old village hall, which is kitty
whompus. What kind of latitude do we have, and I'll just be overtly silly about it. Could
we move it again?
Kate Aanenson: I would think so, but if you're going to move it again I believe the state
recommends if you're going to move it, that you move it so that it's correct in it's
original location to qualify for historic significance. Certainly...
Councilman Ayotte: Okay, you could move it again and what are the parameters for
moving it again. Say it again so I can hear you.
Kate Aanenson: Well if you want to get historic significance, then you need to move it
back to where it's original location would be. To quality for...
Councilman Ayotte: So what you're saying is no matter where we would move it, it
would not have a historical significance unless we could move it back to where it was.
Kate Aanenson: That's my understanding of the law.
Councilman Ayotte: Is that correct?
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, and use materials.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, materials that would be associated with the era.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, it was on a rock foundation.
Councilman Ayotte: A rock foundation, okay. And where would it have to go if we had
to move it back again?
Todd Gerhardt: Can you point to the middle of the site plan? Yep.
Kate Aanenson: Approximately in this area.
Councilman Ayotte: And that's not doable is it?
Kate Aanenson: Sure. Not with the proposal in front of you.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. I'm asking these questions to also educate a bit if you don't
mind. Now the Environmental Commission is really associated with you isn't it?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Environmental?
Councilman Ayotte: Environmental, yeah.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Mayor Furlong: Thank you.
Councilman Ayotte: You're welcome. And I believe it was Mr. Lentz that made the
comment that heritage preservation commission would be helpful and I tend to agree with
him on that point. I think it was Mr. Lentz that made that comment. Is it reasonable,
could the, the Environmental Commission right now does not have the charter to be
involved with the review of heritage preservation activity. Do they or do they not? I'm
not certain.
Kate Aanenson: No they do not.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Would it be a big effort to alter the commission's focus to
consider that as an added function of that commission?
Kate Aanenson: It'd be my recommendation that that really would belong to the
Planning Commission. Actually in the Met Council if you're going to do something like
that, it would, if you were going to weave in one to the existing, it really would belong, in
my opinion, probably a little more close related to the Planning Commission who is more
involved in site plan review and that's kind of their bailiwick.
Todd Gerhardt: And can you, approximately 5 years ago we had a historical review.
Kate Aanenson: We started an old town plan and that was started in approximately 2000.
I mentioned that earlier, and we spent some time on that and we were asked to cease that.
There wasn't buy in from the neighborhood at that time so. We did kind of start that
process.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay, but there could be a charter for, in your view, the Planning
Commission to consider historical preservation check for activity.
Kate Aanenson: Sure. There's a lot of different ways you can go with that. Whether you
want to do an ordinance or some sort of review. There's a lot of different ways you could
set that up.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Has there been much traffic study with respect to the
Goddard activity?
Kate Aanenson: They did look, kind of looked at there, what their peak hours were.
What their peak hours were. That was our concern. Again, they did do a peak hour
study.
Councilman Ayotte: I didn't hear you.
Kate Aanenson: They gave us their data what they used for peak hours. What their main
traffic, morning and afternoon and what their time frames are.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Councilman Ayotte: Who's reviewed that so far?
Kate Aanenson: Planning staff has. It was not a formalized traffic study.
Councilman Ayotte: It was not formalized?
Kate Aanenson: No. Just kind of what their peak hours, what their normal traffic
patterns are. How many children are in the school. What their normal pick-up, those sort
of things.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Thanks Tom.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Councilman Lundquist, any questions? Just a couple for
clarification. It's 500 feet. Number of people notified has been raised. What are the
other ways that, as a city we try to notify residents and businesses of proposed
developments?
Kate Aanenson: All public hearings are also, the agenda is published. For the Planning
Commission.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Signs on the property.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Other things, I guess newspaper are some of the things that
happened here.
Kate Aanenson: Yes, correct.
Mayor Furlong: But for the fact that the city acquired this property back through it's
downtown development, when would notification typically go out. If this was a privately
held property.
Kate Aanenson: Exact same process.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. So there would be no earlier notification. We're notify the same,
the way that the residents found out about this would be the same way that they'd find
out about it if it was a private transaction between two private owners or the owner
wanted to come in and develop the property.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Following up on Councilman Ayotte's question on the traffic.
What was planning staff's review of that data and what was the results of that review in
terms of traffic on the roads on West 78th and Great Plains?
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Kate Aanenson: There was some concern voiced about the other school, Chapel Hill
that's across the street and that the hours there, they start shortly after 8:00. The drop off
on this is a little bit broader overlap. They have one start time. This one has an hour and
a half, two hour window. The morning drop off. They have some noon or 1:00 pick-up
and then evening pick-up which I think is until 6:00 p.m. So that's different than the
school let out time which is 3:00 so we should be off setting that so we didn't see that as
a problem. It's again going back to the fact that that's the 5 day as opposed to what fast
food which may be more operational and longer periods of time or something like that.
That could be an office building or housing which has traffic 24 hours a day.
Mayor Furlong: You're saying if there's a different use.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. So with the current uses, staff found that the traffic pattern was at
least complimentary to or didn't.
Kate Aanenson: We thought that would be the most complimentary to the overall
neighborhood patterns.
Mayor Furlong: Didn't overlap the peak times of other uses in the area?
Kate Aanenson: Yes, correct.
Mayor Furlong: They were offset.
Kate Aanenson: They were offset, right. And then also worked you know for the
weekend. Again this is a shared parking lot. That worked for the weekend uses of the
other facilities, and this plan does accommodate.
Mayor Furlong: That would be the church?
Kate Aanenson: The Chamber who also uses that building. There's parking provided for
that and for the church. That's correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. And just for clarification, in terms of the location maybe going
back to the.
Kate Aanenson: The site plan?
Mayor Furlong: Yeah. Let's go to the site plan first. Where the paver courtyard is now
the village hall.
Kate Aanenson: This area.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Mayor Furlong: That used to be a road? That was the road.
Todd Gerhardt: 10 1.
Mayor Furlong: Came through there?
Todd Gerhardt: Went through the Standard station across the railroad tracks, up and then
it was a 4 way stop at that intersection at 101.
Mayor Furlong: At West 78th?
Todd Gerhardt: Yes, and then take a right onto West 78th Street was the route for 10 1.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: If you look at the site location map, it shows the property for that road.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, that strip going up and down there between the two. Okay. And
the building's that were razed from this site where the grass is now, obviously they
weren't on the road with the paver stone. How tall were those buildings? Were they
single story buildings? Were they two story?
Todd Gerhardt: Pauly's was a single story. Pryzmus was a two story and the Pony
Express was a two story.
Mayor Furlong: And height wise on the two story, were they comparable to this with the
roof, if you can recall or high or lower?
Todd Gerhardt: They wouldn't be any higher.
Mayor Furlong: They wouldn't be any higher, okay. Alright. Parking with other uses if
this did not contain to be a daycare, but was an office. Do we know what the ratio of
parking would be? Would we still have adequate parking?
Kate Aanenson: Depends on the square footage.
Todd Gerhardt: It's 1 per 250.
Kate Aanenson: Again it really depends again on the use because you have a daycare
drop off. You have much more flexibility of that cross over use. An office may,
depending on the type of office, may compromise that more during the day or weekends.
Again it would depend on if there's an office that doesn't use the weekends, for example
realty office may be busier on a Saturday so it would depend on that type of office type of
use.
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Do we know if it was an office use, if the parking would be
adeq uate?
Kate Aanenson: Well you'd have to, it'd be perspective. You'd have to limit the size of
the building to meet the parking standards.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is that a consideration that we need Mr. Attorney to look at? As
part of the site plan approval. Alternative uses of the building.
Roger Knutson: Mayor, it could potentially create a problem for someone but if they
don't meet the parking, they couldn't go to that use. So they might be frustrated in their
intentions potentially depending on how they wanted to use the building, but if they don't
satisfy the standard or unless they petition you to change the rules.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, so there's a catch there. There's a check and balance. That
would be the case.
Kate Aanenson: Correct. Any change in use would have to meet the standards.
Mayor Furlong: Signage.
Kate Aanenson: There is signage on the building as shown on the plan.
Mayor Furlong: As I'm asking that question, can we include a condition or would it
make sense to include a condition that would eliminate neon as an option.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah. The signage.
Mayor Furlong: Or whatever.
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Furlong: You probably know where 1'm going with that question so.
Kate Aanenson: Right, correct, and I think that was brought up by the neighbors too. It
is a sensitive issue when you're in proximity to residential.
Mayor Furlong: But I'm not sure, something, a sign may meet our current ordinance but
I don't think it would, if this sign goes through I don't think it would be appropriate.
Kate Aanenson: Correct. They're proposing a pylon sign on the corner but that's fine.
For the lighting for signage.
Mayor Furlong: Is that necessary? I just want to make sure they don't come back with a
neon sign because it meets ordinance.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Kate Aanenson: No, I think that's fine.
Mayor Furlong: Is it covered? Or do we expand it?
Councilman Lundquist: Condition 19 would be no.
Mayor Furlong: I'll leave it to staff to, I think they know where I'm going with that issue
and I'll leave it to staff to know what the language, so we're not trying to do that.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, it's condition 18. If you just want to, so we did put in there. I
don't know if it's clear enough, a detailed sign incorporating the method of lighting. If
you just want to qualify that by saying you know brightness, intensity or something to
that effect.
Mayor Furlong: Can we say no neon? Or neon accents or what's, I mean what I'm
thinking of here is the Original Mattress Factory sign and I'm not sure how that fits into
our current ordinance but 1'd like to not have that anywhere near. So, that's a different
issue, different topic. I think those are my questions at this point. Thank you. Any other
questions for staff?
Councilman Ayotte: One other. Can there, when I took a look at the view of the steeple
and the building, it doesn't seem as complimental as it possibly could be. Is there
anything that can be done about that?
Kate Aanenson: I think the Planning Commission asked the same question because a
picture shows as, which we took off the scale model shows a white roof. The shingle
type is actually on there. It's a dark shingle. Can you hold it, my assistant. So it's a dark
shingle, so I think it's a little, I think the Planning Commission struggled a little bit too
looking at that large white roof but it will be a dark roof complimentary. Actually the
type of shingles they're trying to match in that area so that would I think change a little
bit of that intensity when you're looking at that picture.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, and in terms of the contrast with respect to the vegetation,
can we be a little bit more specific with the emplacement of landscape to do a little bit
more with it. Was there any discussion along that line and what latitude we have to do
that.
Kate Aanenson: Sure, there is some existing but if there's a recommendation, we're
always happy to meet with the landscaper on site to preserve views or guide certain
views. Those sort of things and we'd be happy to work with the applicant.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, because the other thing that can happen, instead of try to
make it integrated is to set it up so that one, so that it actually blocks.
Kate Aanenson: Correct. You can either try to screen something or enhance something
and we need to work through those. I think we can work with them on those issues. But
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
we know lighting's an issue for the neighbors and we want to make sure that that, and the
applicants are aware of that too, and that's another thing. This should be pretty low key
on the weekends.
Councilman Ayotte: One last question Tom I promise. For a traffic study, is that being,
in your view, could we get some dividends by having a more didactic look at traffic?
Kate Aanenson: I don't know if Paul wants to comment on that but.
Paul Oehme: Engineering did look briefly at the traffic.
Councilman Ayotte: Pull it closer to you Paul. I can't hear you.
Paul Oehme: Sorry. I have the traffic study right here and engineering did take a look at
the analysis that the Goddard School did put together. What they did where they
compared 3 other schools I believe that currently are running. They looked at the peak
hour traffic flows for those schools and basically correlated through the size and the
scope of their facility that they're proposing to date, and based upon those numbers we're
looking at one at 64 peak hourly traffic increase versus what's today, which is virtually
nothing compared to what's on Great Plains currently is what, 8,600 ADT. Average
daily traffic flow on Great Plains.
Councilman Ayotte: So the current traffic study you have satisfies you and you do not
see the need for an additional.
Paul Oehme: In my opinion there is no traffic issues.
Councilman Ayotte: Alright.
Mayor Furlong: Ms. Aanenson, with regard to the roof and sight lines. Functionally is it
possible to lower the roof?
Kate Aanenson: The applicants can speak to that but the point they made at the Planning
Commission is, in order to get the HV AC in, that roof, all their heating ventilating, sorry
I'm using an acronym, in their roof. If they went any lower they'd be compromising the
ability to get in and do the normal maintenance. They've lowered it as far as they believe
functionality.
Mayor Furlong: So then otherwise they'd have to have an open roof and then use some
shielding or something for the HV AC.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and we'd rather see it you know, in this area, that was a goal was
to try to get enclosed roof on this.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Mayor Furlong: One last question. I was looking at my list. Maybe it's my last
question. Windows. There don't seem to be as many windows on this as we see on some
of the other projects that come forward. Is that.
Kate Aanenson: It does meet the requirements of the code as far as, there is a
requirement for openings and it does meet those requirements.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, between the doors and the windows together?
Kate Aanenson: That's correct, yep. It does meet code.
Mayor Furlong: Alright. Okay. Alright, is there any part of this site plan, there's no
variance being requested.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Mayor Furlong: Is there any part that doesn't meet code?
Kate Aanenson: No.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright, thank you. Any other questions for staff at this time? If
not I'd certainly invite the applicant to come forward. And if there's anything you'd like
to address with the council. We do have copies of the Planning Commission minutes so
we have that information in front of us as well but good evening.
Fred Riese: Good evening. Fred Riese, 9154 Sunnyvale Dri ve and it's a pleasure to be
in front of you again. I'd like to say right from the beginning that from the first day that
my wife and I were presented with this site that it was to the utmost importance to us to
maintain the historic quality of the site and that's the way we have worked with the city
staff right from the beginning. We have put a lot of changes into this building
architecturally and to say the least those changes have cost us a lot of money. So if you
have any questions for me, go ahead and please ask them.
Mayor Furlong: Any questions for the applicant?
Councilman Ayotte: Would you be willing on your own, rather than the involvement of
the city, to share with maybe a resident or two all the things that you've done to
accommodate the historical preservation to the site.
Fred Riese: Sure, absolutely. If we can bring the site up here.
Councilman Ayotte: What I'm thinking is maybe it would be a.
Mayor Furlong: I'd like to hear some of that I think.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay, I'm sorry. I apologize Tom. Excuse me.
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Fred Riese: I can do it down here, that's fine. The site plan first. We have added to the
rear of the building the dormer area which basically duplicates the front of the building
except for the cupola. As you can see on the model where the cupola is and that
designates the front of the building, and then the back by 78th Street, it's basically the
same size dormer with the white columns and everything. It just does not have the
cupola. We wanted to keep the cupola just on the front to designate the front so we
added, but on city staff's request we put that dormer on the back okay to make the back
look just like the front because that's the way we wanted it to look along 78th Street. We
also added the dormers, the smaller dormers on either side on the west and east sides of
the building to give it an architectural look to take away from the.
Councilman Ayotte: Why don't you put that think on there so the folks can see it.
Mayor Furlong: Nann, can you hit from this camera? From an angle. I don't know, will
that work? Or alternate. I don't know if that will help or not.
Fred Riese: We have the dormer that we added here. We have the dormer that we added
here and here, both with very large white columns on both sides. The two white columns
here, here and here. The white columns in the front. On the sides, also on the sides of
the building, besides adding more windows and doors to give it to more transparency,
which by the way we took it to the max of the building without sacrificing the sheer
quality of the strength of the building. We added as many windows as we could. Before
the architect finally says you can't add anymore. We also are going to be doing arched
brick work above every single window. The reason for that is to try to match the arch
brick work to the best of our ability on the church itself to help compliment that arch
brick work on the church. The landscaping here on the corner here where we have a
bunch of utility boxes, okay. We're adding landscaping in there. Those utility boxes
which you can now see as you come down West 78th Street will be completely hidden.
You will not see them anymore. The trees that are there will all be staying, okay. We
added 4 trees to the site. All of the vegetation or landscaping that's along Great Plains
Boulevard we are going to maintain and actually dress up and make better. The center
island here, which is actually going to change quite a bit, is going to be all new
landscaping in the center island. There's going to be all new landscaping, there's going
to be 2 new trees right here. And all new landscaping in front of the building. There's
going to be a flag pole in this area right here, which will have the American flag and the
Goddard flag. And let's see, what else.
Justin Miller: Fred, maybe address the brick color.
Fred Riese: The brick color, yes. The brick color, I visited several brick companies and
finally found this brick company here that could match the brick on the church to the best
of their ability. I took, I found samples on the ground around the church and I brought
them with me and that was the best that we could do. To match the church. And the
roof, we also matched the best we could. Now keeping in mind that the roof is a cedar
shake roof which is probably 50 to 60 years old. It has green mildew on it and I decided
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
that probably the best matching roof would be that of a weathered wood, architectural
look. So it's not a white roof. It's not a black roof. It's a weathered wood look, and it's
architectural. On the roof which actually is not shown here, there are 2 smaller dormers
on either side to help break up the roof line. Here and here. I don't know if you can
actually see, not in that shot. Okay, so you understand what 1'm talking about. Those
were added also to break up the roof line. Let me see, the parking lot itself, okay. The
building as you know is going to move forward and into the parking lot a bit. The
parking lot itself, the grade of the parking lot is going to be made much safer than what it
is right now. It's going to be much flatter so that people can, traffic can move in and out
of the parking lot in a safer way. Also, lighting is going to be added to the parking lot
and sidewalks. The sidewalks that are going to be added are going to be right here which
is going to connect with the city sidewalks and there's going to be a sidewalk in front of
the school, which will also attach to the sidewalk that goes besides the old city hall and
then into the, I'll call it the church park. The sidewalk here and the sidewalk here, in both
spots is going to have sidewalk lighting so at night when people are walking, hopefully
walking on a stroll in that area they'll be able to walk safely along that sidewalk. The
parking lot is going to get an additional 5 parking light lamps. Currently in that parking
lot only one lamp works. Okay, and that actually is going to be removed. It's in the
center island and we're going to add 5. So that parking lot will be illuminated and it will
be illuminated with the type of lights that shine only downward so not out, so it will not
be affecting the neighborhood. Let's see. I think that's about it.
Councilman Ayotte: That's quite a bit.
Kate Aanenson: I just wanted to add.
Mayor Furlong: I think that was helpful, thank you.
Kate Aanenson: I just wanted to add that they do have a typical plan.
Mayor Furlong: I'm sorry.
Kate Aanenson: They do have a typical plan, I believe 2 or 3 that they build as a typical
prototype.
Mayor Furlong: For Goddard Schools, they have a prototype...
Kate Aanenson: Yes... prototype but there's no other one that will look like this.
Fred Riese: Right, right. There is no one that will look like this. This will be the first
one of it's type. There's been a lot ofredesign done on this building. A lot.
Kate Aanenson: Specifically to meet what we believe to fit into this area.
Fred Riese: Right. So the roof was brought down just about 4 feet from the original
height. It was originally a 6: 12 roof. We brought it down to a 5: 12 which took almost 4
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
feet off the height of the roof. To do that we had, they had to redesign the interior
drafting area for the mechanicals. So that was all done. And like I said, well the
architect told me, she said there will be no room if we take it down any further to work on
the mechanicals inside that roof.
Mayor Furlong: So that, and that's to answer my question earlier. It's as low as it can go
with it's current design, otherwise it would have to be an open roof I would suppose.
Fred Riese: That's correct.
Mayor Furlong: With shielding for the mechanicals.
Fred Riese: Right. It'd be a flat roof, which would just not be good for the architecture
of the area. We're trying to work extremely hard to blend with the architecture of the
area and to compliment it, you know the best we can. And that's our single goal here.
To honor the historic site.
Todd Gerhardt: Mr. Mayor, could you have Mr. Riese talk about the parking
arrangements with St. Hubert's and the Chamber. I think that's a restriction against your
property, if I remember right.
Fred Riese: Yeah, they're going to be granted easements. The church and the Chamber
of Commerce. The Chamber of Commerce, actually those addendums to the purchase
agreement are being reviewed right now by the city attorney's office and, but in those
proposals the Chamber of Commerce is going to have 4 permanent slots in the parking
lot. Which would be right over here. These 4 slots. And then the church is going to
have the following slots. The church is going to, that's correct. Yeah, 4 and 4. If I
remember right, it's going to be 4 and 4. They're just going to have designated parking 4
and 4, and the church will have use of the parking lot on Saturdays and Sundays and also
at night during the week, Monday through Friday, and that's all included in their
easement. And Remax is also their easement is also being re-written. Actually it has
been re-written. It's also in front of the city attorney right now and that also continues to
grant them access and also I have talked with the owners of Remax and there's going to
be a gentlemen's agreement for overflow parking as they require it.
Todd Gerhardt: Mr. Mayor, the old St. Hubert's church has on street parking as their
means of their patrons to park and access the church. They do not have any ownership of
parking in the parking area as that exists today or in the future we will be allowing those
times as Mr. Riese has mentioned.
Fred Riese: Yeah, and the Chamber and the church will, their designated parking will be
indicated by sign age with their hours of operations so that no one else will park during
their hours of operation. So it will be their parking. Also when, I know you addressed
the signage that was.
Mayor Furlong: You heard that?
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Fred Riese: Possibly going to go on the property, yes. Right now there is nothing, no
plan for any sort of illuminated signage at all. I just want to make that point.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. We may still put it as a condition. So fore-shadowing it. Okay,
thank you. Any other questions for the applicant? Okay, any follow-up questions for
staff? If not, why don't we bring it back to council for discussion. Councilman Labatt,
you want to start?
Councilman Labatt: 1'd love to Mayor. Okay. While, this is one of these tough ones
here where the residents and neighbors, the passion to stop this and yet we're bound by
our zoning and rules that we have here, so this is a case where if the shoe fits you must
wear it. Bob, how's that?
Councilman Ayotte: That will work.
Councilman Labatt: You know as I look through the plans and specs, to try to come up
with a way to kill this thing, I don't see it. I mean the applicant here has bought a parcel
of land, whether it's public or private, under a legal means and we've done everything as
a city here as far was notifying whether it was private or public. We have no choice. I
like what Mr. Riese has done here with trying to come in with a project and a plan that
really blends in. If you look at what, in the Findings of Fact number 4. Creates a
harmonious relationship of building and open space with natural features and existing and
future buildings. You couldn't have asked for a better bui lding. And here an applicant
has gone above and beyond what would normally be put upon them. It's a case like this
where I hate to say the term you know, this is where we become Chanhassle again.
Where this applicant here has gone way above to make this thing work. He's, where are
my notes here? Back when Tom and Brian and Craig, 2 years ago when you first joined,
we, remember I think it was Craig or Brian that asked city staff to inventory our city
property. We were faced with a budget crisis. And we were needing to come up with
funds and look at forecasting what we have. And we asked city staff to inventory all the
city property. Give us the zoning, give us the guiding and what's the plan for this and
that. This is one of those projects we talked about. And we as a council, the 5 of us
decided let's look at unloading some of this property that we're wasting here. Let's look
at generating some tax revenue on it. Let's see what we can do to fit in, and here's an
example here of our city staff doing what this council charged them to do. Doing what
the 18,000-20,000 charged the 5 of us to do and keep their taxes within line. Lower their
taxes when we can. Be good stewards of the money. Now here's a case where we're
doing it. And now we're, I don't want to.. .but now we're being condemned for it. Two
years ago we talked about doing this and so there's been no, nothing put underneath the
hat here hidden. We've looked at different proposed developments here. I mentioned the
DQ Grill and Chill. Dunn Brothers. Goddard. The expansion of the church. They came
in on that night. There's been a lot of talk on selling this property. In the 7 years I've
been up here, we've talked about looking at this site as a potential church. It's too small
for that. We looked at a potential farmers market. And whether we brought that here to
City Center Park. But 1've never recalled the conversation about us leaving it as a park or
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
open space or putting swing sets there. So I'll leave my comments at that. 1'm in favor
of the project.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you.
Councilman Lundquist: My comments probably a lot similar to Councilman Labatt's.
As we went forward on this proposal, again as Councilman Labatt said, I think it was
under direction of the council that staff went to sort of actively market this property so
they did that at the request of the council and/or the EDA. And I think that the efforts
that have gone through this proposal set it apart from the other ones that have come.
When Grill and Chill came, they were asked to make some changes and basically
responded with a flat out, you know no. And so that was our response in return. And as I
responded in my emails back that I received in the last few days on this project, it ' s still
my belief that this city shouldn't be in the land ownership business for the sake of owning
land. If we're not going to intend it, if we don't intend to do something with it, that we
should get it on the market and not, and be good stewards of our taxpayers money so
here's an opportunity we had to turn some of that land back into revenue and we found an
applicant who was extremely willing to make changes and added expense to themselves,
so that being said, again no variances. Meets all the codes. We have a legal and binding
agreement, purchase agreement and unfortunately not everybody's going to come out
happy in the end of this thing but hopefully we can learn some lessons going forward.
Right now not only are we bound by it, but I think 1'm in favor of the proposal just on the
face value for what we've got so I would commend the Riese's and our staff as well
again for really trying to do the best for this site and put a good product on there that still
preserves the location and the feel. Look and feel of that area. So 1'm also in favor.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Councilman Ayotte.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, a couple of facts. The facts are that traffic is not going to be
an issue. The facts are that our communications with the residents is flawed in this
particular situation because we got a whole bunch of signatures here of people with sour
pusses and we've got a project that's pretty solid and we've got a project that you guys
tried to assimilate to the community. Assimilate to a historical site which is really not a
historical site. So what 1'd like to see, instead of people walking out because they don't
particularly care to hear what we've got to say, is to possibly consider heritage
preservation as a target out of this, and see if we have potential concerns and somehow
capture that, so I just want to bring that point up. Maybe there's something we should
look at and maybe, is the Villager here tonight? Villager's not here tonight so some of
these things that maybe should be getting into the Villager, like this discussion, may not
and maybe we need to figure out a way of communicating in tandem along with the
Villager so we've talked about this before. What things can we do to communicate so
that we don't have this particular situation. I dare say maybe half or a third or maybe
three-quarters of these people would feel better about the project if they would have
worked in concert with these folks to see all the things they've done to compliment that
church. There's nothing you can do to compliment the kitty whompus city hall we've got
sitting there. You know that was a snafu from the get go. So I'm in favor of the project.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
1'm upset over the fact that the community doesn't seem to be educated on this point.
I'm concerned that we do not have a newspaper here to hear these concerns, and 1'm also
wondering whether or not we do need to, in some fashion, take a look at our heritage
preservation activity and possibly formalize it in some fashion. And 1've got these guys
names here. I'm going to make some calls to some of these folks, see if they want to
participate. Because peak and valley participation's not the way to go in a community,
so, and Mr. Atkins' point about maybe us taking another look at the population that we
communicate, maybe it shouldn't be a threshold. Maybe we should look at each situation
and see how we can invite more folks to participate so with regard to the project, I'm for
it. 1'm concerned about heritage preservation identification and I'm concerned about
communication with the community and I think we have to address that in some fashion.
And I really applaud and appreciate your involvement with this community sir. Thank
you very much. That's it.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Try not to repeat. I think again the difference with this
property versus a normal site plan approval is that the city was involved early on as part
of the EDA having acquired this property through redevelopment. Objectives for our
downtown area. And what the EDA, Economic Development Authority, it's about
economic development. From a development standpoint, we can go back and say what
people were told. What they weren't told. I think from a practical standpoint, it's
important to follow and look at our comprehensive plan and what I heard tonight is that
long before the city ever acquired this property it was zoned for commercial
development. And it was not a park or that was not the intention. I think the issue I have
and some of the questions I was asking earlier tonight was the issue that's been brought
up is the sight line towards old St. Hubert's church. And so I was trying to ascertain what
was there before there was green grass. The reason there's green grass there now is
because, as I understand it, after the city acquired the properties, we razed them rather
than leaving empty buildings there. We didn't do that with the bowling alley. We waited
til we had a development there before that bowling alley came down, and there was
vandalism issues and obviously it was very unsightly and I guess I applaud the city
earlier for taking the buildings down here and at least planting grass rather than just
leaving them sit there. As Councilman Labatt said, this council directed staff to actively
look at property throughout the city that the city owned that could be redeveloped. That's
part of what the Economic Development Authority does. In addition to the bowling
alley, which is an ongoing redevelopment as that building has now come down and it's
happening. This was a site that we've looked at. You heard earlier we turned down
some other applicants because we didn't think it was appropriate. We also looked at the
old Red-E-Mix site along Highway 5 and the pedestrian bridge. We went out, actively
solicited proposals there. The ones that came back were not acceptable and we said no.
We're not interested in selling for those, so I believe this council is being prudent in
terms of looking for opportunities to put city owned property back onto the tax rolls, but
not doing it in such a way that we're doing it at fire sale prices or we're doing it at
whoever first comes through the door. So I think that's important. With regard to the
site plan itself, it meets the zoning requirements. It meets all the ordinances. I'm sorry.
Kate Aanenson: No, it exceeds.
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
Mayor Furlong: Exceeds. There are no variances being requested. From a site plan
process itself, I commend the applicant, the Riese's for listening and doing so much to try
to accommodate the request of the historic site. Things that they didn't have to do that
I'm assuming they'd still meet site plan requirements had they not done that, so I think
that needs to be pointed out. So from a site plan standpoint, I can support and will
support it because it fits. You know from an overall development standpoint, there will
be disagreement on this in terms of site plan and like. You know with regard to a park or
with regard to a business there, private business, I think this type of business is
complimentary with other businesses around the area. It's kitty corner from Chapel Hill
Academy. The preschool. As we heard, the traffic flow is not going to be an issue. It's
going to bring people to our downtown, which is part of what economic development's
about and why we're going through this process. Parents are going to drop off their
children in the morning and bring them back in the afternoon. It's going to help other
businesses in the downtown. These are all issues that we talked about at the EDA. We
wanted to make sure that the traffic was addressed. It's been addressed. We wanted to
make sure that the architecture was appropriate. That I too believe has been addressed,
so that's getting more on the development issues and is more of a recap of what we did as
an EDA back, starting in April and then completing it through August. From a site plan
standpoint, I believe it meets the requirements and I will be voting in favor of it for
reasons previously stated. Any other comments or discussion? On this. The one thing I
would ask is that if somebody makes a motion, if they could include a condition.
Councilman Labatt: 19?
Mayor Furlong: 19. Do you have some language there or suggested language?
Kate Aanenson: Sure. If you just want to modify 18 that says the applicant must obtain a
sign permit. If you want to add no illumination.
Roger Knutson: Or is it neon signs?
Kate Aanenson: They intended no illumination...
Mayor Furlong: So no illumination? Where do you want that included in the language?
Kate Aanenson: I'll just modify number 18. The applicant must obtain a sign permit.
Somewhere at the end of that sentence. No illuminated signs are permitted.
Councilman Labatt: The pylon too? Let's just go with no neon. Can we do that Roger?
Just, I mean if they want. If it starts getting dark at 4:30 in the winter time. Maybe they
want a sign out there.
Kate Aanenson: That's fine.
Roger Knutson: I mean if you put a light on it.
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
Councilman Labatt: A regular incandescent back lit sign or something, but let's just go
no neon for now. Is that okay Mayor?
Mayor Furlong: That's fine. If we could say no Original Mattress Factory sign, but
that's a little more specific. Let's find out where the problem is that addresses that. So
what, based on those comments, what would you suggest? No neon?
Councilman Labatt: No neon or high intensity lighting.
Councilman Lundquist: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: And we'll leave it to staff to determine high intensity. Thank you.
Councilman Labatt: Yep.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. With that, is there a motion on this?
Councilman Lundquist: I would move that the City Council approve Site Plan 04-32 for
an 8,068 square foot building to house a school as shown on the plans dated received
September 3,2004, subject to conditions 1 through 18 including modifications for sign
lighting as previously discussed.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there?
Counci lman Labatt: Second.
Mayor Furlong: It's been made and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion?
Councilman Lundquist moved, Councilman Labatt seconded that the City Council
approve Site Plan 04-32 for an 8,068 square foot building to house a school as shown
on the plans dated received September 3, 2004, subject to the following conditions:
1. Applicant shall preserve all existing trees south of the grading limits and outside of
the property lines. Any trees removed will be replaced at a rate of 2: 1 diameter
inches.
2. Applicant shall move the red maple shown in the southeastern corner of the site to a
location within the grading limits. A revised landscape plan shall be submitted to the
city.
3. Permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies will have to be obtained including
but not limited to the MPCA and Watershed District.
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City Council Meeting - October 11,2004
4. Add detail sheet showing City Detail Plate Nos. 1002,1006,2001,3101,3102,5201,
5203,5214 and 5300.
5. Sanitary sewer and water hookup charges are applicable for the new building. The
2004 trunk hookup charge is $1,458 for sanitary sewer and $2,814 for watermain.
Sanitary sewer and watermain hookup fees may be specially assessed against the
parcel at the time of building permit issuance. All of these charges are based on the
number of SAC units assigned by the Met Council.
6. Prior to building permit issuance, all plans must be signed by a professional civil
engineer registered in the state of Minnesota.
7. Any retaining wall over 4 feet in height must be designed by a Structural Engineer
registered in the State of Minnesota and require a permit from the Building
Department. A 4-foot safety fence must be included on top of the wall where
adjacent to a pedestrian walkway.
8. On the site plan, revise the handicap parking stall from 9-inch to 9-feet.
9. On the utility plan:
- Revise the sanitary sewer pipe class from SDR35 to SDR26.
- Revise the watermain pipe from CL55 to CL52.
10. Show all existing easements on the plans.
11. Revise the plans to provide a minimum of 1.5 feet of elevation difference between the
FFE of the building and the emergency overflow elevations of the side yard areas.
12. Storm sewer sizing calculations for a lO-year storm event must be submitted prior to
building permit approval
13. Tree protection fencing must be installed around all trees in the construction zone that
will remain.
14. All roof top equipment shall be screened.
15. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the city and provide the
necessary financial securities.
16. Fire Marshal Conditions:
a. The building will be built to the 2000 International Fire Code as adopted by the
State of Minnesota not the NFPA 101 2000 Life Safety Code.
b. Builder must comply with the following Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire
Prevention policies (copies enclosed):
· 01-1990 regarding fire alarm systems
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City Council Meeting - October 11, 2004
· 04-1991 regarding notes to be included on all site plans
· 07-1991 regarding pre-fire plan drawings.
· 29-1992 regarding premise identification
· 36-1994 regarding proper water line sizing
· 40-1995 regarding fire protection systems
· 34-1993 regarding water service installation
c. The 4-inch ductal iron pipe as shown on page C4-1 should be no smaller than 6-
inch per NFPA 13 Sect. 9-1.3.
17. Building Official conditions:
a. The building is required to be protected by automatic fire extinguishing systems.
b. The plans must be prepared and signed by design professionals licensed in the
State of Minnesota.
c. The accessible parking spaces must be located on the shortest possible route to the
buildings served.
d. Roof drain piping must be air tested within 10 feet of the building.
e. Detailed occupancy related requirements will not be reviewed until complete
plans are submitted for a building permit.
f. The owner and or their representative shall meet with the Inspections Division as
soon as possible to discuss plan review and permit procedures.
18. The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting the signs on site. A detailed
sign plan incorporating the method of lighting, acceptable to staff should be provided
prior to requesting a sign permit. No neon or high intensity lighting will be allowed."
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to O.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you everyone. We do appreciate your comments. Given the
hour, 1'm going to call a 5 minute, or recess subject to the call of the chair. Be back in 5
minutes please.
The City Council took a short recess at this point.
REQUEST FOR A PRIVATE KENNEL PERMIT. 8561 FLAMINGO DRIVE.
LINDY & DENISE HOLLINGSWORTH.
Justin Miller: Mayor, council. Staff has received an application for a private kennel
permit at 8561 Flamingo Drive. By city code anybody who has more than 2 dogs or a
combination of 4 dogs or cats, over 6 months in age, are required to have a private kennel
permit. The normal city practice as stated in code as we published in notice of such a
request in the Chanhassen Villager. If no complaints are received and it meets a
satisfactory inspection by our kennel inspector, which is our CSO, and the animals are
licensed, it is granted. A kennel license. A private kennel license which is good for a
year. We did receive some complaints on this. One written, which was in your packet
and I received one verbal also which was not included in this obviously. The CSO's did
48