PC Minutes 2-17-04
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CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 17,2004
Chairman Sacchet called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Uli Sacchet, Steve Lillehaug, Craig Claybaugh, Bethany
Tjornhom, and Rich Slagle
STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Community Development Director; Bob
Generous, Senior Planner; and Matt Saam, Assistant City Engineer
PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS:
Debbie Lloyd
Janet D. Paulsen
7302 Laredo Drive
7305 Laredo Drive
PUBLIC HEARING:
REQUEST FOR SETBACK AND LOT COVERAGE VARIANCES TO PERMIT
THE EXPANSION OF A SINGLE FAMILY HOME ON A 0.27 ACRE LOT
ZONED RSF LOCATED AT 3637 SOUTH CEDAR DRIVE, TOM AND JACKIE
JOHNSON, PLANNING CASE No. 04-07.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Dave Bangasser
3633 South Cedar Drive
Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item.
Sacchet: Questions from staff. Craig.
Claybaugh: What, do you happen to know Bob what the square footage of the side yard
variance is? I know it was expressed in lineal footage but it's running at an askew angle,
going from 2 foot 6. The dimensioning on my plans or the one present were too small to
read.
Generous: Yeah, it's approximately 20 square feet.
Claybaugh: Okay. On table 3 with respect to the other lots in the area and the variances
that have been granted, there wasn't any expression of dates. How far back does that
table go?
Generous: If you look at the case number, the first number represents the years. So it
goes all the way back to 1975 and the latest one was in 2002.
Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
Claybaugh: What year was the shoreland setback? Was that '87?
Generous: That was the original shoreland.
Aanenson: Probably when it was updated.
Claybaugh: Okay, and I know we've discussed in the Carver Beach area but their
property out there is a front walkout rambler? Is that accurate?
Generous: Yes, it's a walkout.
Claybaugh: Okay. What is the, and I don't know if you use best management practices
handbook or what. You've used it express in the past but with respect with ramblers,
what is reasonable square footage by current standards?
Generous: Ordinance requires approximately 1,000 square feet.
Claybaugh: So it's only 1,000 and obviously they're entitled to a 2 car garage and
they're using what, 400 and some odd square feet or what is that?
Generous: Right.
Claybaugh: Okay. I wasn't able to come up with the square footage that they've got for
a footprint on this. Do you happen to have that available?
Generous: They show the existing house as 1,181 square feet and proposed at 2,604.
Claybaugh: So right now the current footprint is actually in excess of what you identify
as a reasonable, okay. Were any issues raised by any adjacent neighbors prior to this
point? I understand there will be a public forum tonight but.
Generous: No, I haven't had anyone that's come in to object to it.
Claybaugh: That's all the questions I have right now.
Sacchet: Any other questions from staff?
Lillehaug: I have a couple.
Sacchet: Steve, go ahead.
Lillehaug: Your list on page 3 of the existing variances that were approved. Recently
we, or the city has approved a few variances that were approved actually as part of
another approval. It wasn't a necessary variance on new construction but it was an
existing variance. Is this, are all of these variances that were approved, are they variances
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
that were needed to expand on construction, because I think it's important? I kind of hit
on that before is, I think it's important to distinguish between the two.
Generous: There were two that were, three that were approved to permit new
construction. The rest were for expansion.
Aanenson: So if it was an existing lot of record, in order to get a house on there. It may
have been undersized. Not a 15,000 square foot lot.
Generous: Generally they may have the area, it's just they're too narrow. You have a lot
of that in that neighborhood.
Lillehaug: I guess I'm not sure if my question, if the question's being answered though.
Are some of these, are a lot of these variances just simply being approved because they
were already non-conforming and it was simply because they were non-conforming but
not part of any new construction or expansion?
Generous: Correct.
Lillehaug: So there are some then?
Aanenson: There are,
Lillehaug: And we, when I look at this I can't really distinguish between the two.
Obviously I can't so.
Aanenson: Well, except that the chart does say approved for a new home. There's 3 that
are.
Generous: Yeah. 8715,9104 and 9604.
Lillehaug: Okay. The next question on page 4. Finding letter A. You indicate the use of
the existing garage which is currently non-conforming appears to be a reasonable request.
Can you explain that? I'm not quite following the thought.
Generous; Basically they want to maintain and expand that. It has a partial second
flooring so they're going to raise the roof on that and it seems reasonable that if they're
using that existing structure, that's a reasonable request.
Lillehaug: What is staff's thoughts on actually expanding it to the front of the garage and
increasing the non-conformity on the front yard. Are you saying that that's a good trade
off for reducing the impervious area?
Generous: Yes, because their expansion would be over existing impervious so they're
not creating a new one and the new impervious in that location, plus we're going to get
additional removal.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Lillehaug: Okay. I think that's all I have for now. Thanks.
Sacchet: Thanks Steve. Any other questions from staff?
Slagle: I just have one. Bob, as we look at again page 3 with the previous variances that
have been sent to the city and approved, when we talk about the lakeshore setbacks, I
think it's safe to say that the commission has looked at those closely over the last few
years and my question is, is if you know on some of those requests where an example like
9604 or 9201, where we're looking at again numerous feet of variance. Were those on
lots where, I mean was it a tight, short lot if you will and they were already encroaching
if you will?
Generous: Yes. They were substandard.
Slagle: Okay. Do we know, do you know how wide this deck is now? The current
deck?
Dan Anderson: Left to right or...
Slagle: Towards the lake. From house to lake.
Dan Anderson: 12 foot.
Slagle: 12 feet, okay. That's it.
Tjornhom: I have one question on impervious surface and the deck. The deck IS
considered part of the structure of the house, is that cOlTect?
Generous: Yes.
Tjornhom: And so that it's not part of the landscape per se because water can run
through it, correct?
Generous: Right, and generally we don't count decks against impervious surface.
However under this there's a concrete patio.
Tjornhom: That was my next question. Well then that's, okay.
Generous: So that takes the impervious.
Sacchet: So the deck does count as impervious because it's solid underneath?
Generous: Well the solid underneath that counts.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
Sacchet: That counts, okay. Okay, because I had a question about that too. Now, I'm
still not sure exactly where the 75 foot lakeshore setback. Can you point that out on the
map once more? You hinted at it before but I didn't catch it clear enough.
Generous: ... the elevation. 75 feet would be to this point.
Sacchet: So it's about halfway through the existing deck?
Generous: Yes.
Sacchet: Roughly. Okay. And then just to be, we hit on this a little bit with those
variances that you list here which was a pretty considerable list. None of those could be
considered the precedent for this? It's a tricky question but you're in a better position to
answer that than I.
Generous: They're not exactly the same. They are, some of them are on sub-standard
lots and this is narrower.
Sacchet: This lot is a little bigger than most of those other ones?
Generous: Yes.
Sacchet: Yeah, okay. Alright. I think that's all the questions. One more question Rich?
Slagle: One more question Mr. Chair. Again getting back to the deck Bob. On page 6 of
the photos that the applicant was kind enough to provide, I see existing deck.. .replacing
bad wood. Is that to mean, from what you know, is that deck that we see a picture of, is
that a recent deck or is that an old deck?
Generous: It's repairing an old deck. Probably mostly new wood.
Sacchet: Well thank you. If the applicant would want to come forward. State your name
and address for the record and let us know any additional information you'd like to add to
this.
Dan Anderson: My name is Dan Anderson. I'm representing Tom and Jackie Johnson.
Tom Johnson: 3637 South Cedar Drive. Excelsior. 55331.
Dan Anderson: I want to address a couple small things. On this, as far as the hard cover
and working with that, that doesn't seem to be too much of an issue to come up with that.
...underneath the deck you know there's, there's older concrete underneath there that can
be worked with. The entrance to the driveway can be worked with. We want to improve
the site as well. They bought the house and it was, it needed a lot of work and they have
already done some work on the interior to make it suitable for their family and they've
been there about a year and a half, two years and as per some of the pictures you've seen,
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
they've got a small boy and a small girl, they're sharing the same bedroom so the big key
here is to get these bedrooms located up over this garage here. We're okay with using the
existing structure. We've got a garage that's a sub par garage. You can't hardly put a
mid sized vehicle in it, so where it expands out here so it can be useable, and also create a
legitimate front entryway. It doesn't have furniture right now. A basement walk in. It
was basically a cabin. So we can make all the work and like I said, we're okay with
working with the hard cover issues and working with the driveway. The one thing
though I would love to lend an ear to is this corner right here. I don't know if you guys
have an interior picture of, do you have an interior shot?
Sacchet: It's in the packet, yes.
Dan Anderson: The interior, this doorway right here that brings us back into the bedroom
area. It lines up center on this wall to allow a per code bathroom. That's a minimum
sized bathroom per code. And to get the proper storage for the kids closet, to make the
bedrooms actually work with the kitchen we came to this corner right here and went
straight out from this. If there's one thing, you've got a very non-conforming
neighborhood. You walk down the neighborhood, a lot of the things that aren't
architecturally correct, and don't even come close. And what we don't want to do is add
to that, add to that. We want to be architecturally correct and keep this wall as straight as
possible. To move this wall in right here 3 feet eliminates having a kitchen where it's
supposed to go and to be able to get back into the bedroom area, to have a code width
door, code width bathroom, and a code width hallway and move everything over this
way, Now I encroach on a code width stairs, which is, you know if you look at this real
close we're not adding any exorbitant square footage. We're not, nothing is that large.
And even the deck over here can be, that could be all met. To meet with the codes and
the setbacks, I'd like to make this redesign to make this all work just fine.
Sacchet: But angling it is not enough. I don't think that corner that you're pointing out is
the issue. It's that corner.
Dan Anderson: Now if you go back to, I'll take you back to the survey. That corner is
right there, That's 2.3 or something.
Generous: 2.6.
Dan Anderson: 2.6 and it's only 2 foot 6 inches into the setback, but if we can walk
away with that one, then I can make all these items in here work. And like I said, typical
hallway, typical bathroom, typical stairs going down. It's all pretty typical. And we can
work, we'll actually work with obviously the rest of the, there is a small, I mean it's a
parking lot out there. We can work with, there's a lot of asphalt to remove. You know
and we want to remove that. That's where our landscape design. Make it more inviting.
And we're willing to spend Tom's money as much as we can. And that's where we're
going to spend it. But anyway, this corner is a very important corner. This corner hinges
on this whole layout right here. To get to that existing structure, which we just want to
use what's there. So if I had to say there's one thing we want to walk away with this,
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
where it's already been granted to us, we agree with that but we'd like to add that corner
to that if we possibly could and the rest will definitely work.
Sacchet: Thank you, Any questions of the applicant?
Claybaugh: Yeah, a couple questions. The stairs that you pointed to, those are new stairs
or are those existing stairs?
Dan Anderson: Currently those are concrete stairs, an outside situation.
Claybaugh: But that's the existing entry?
Dan Anderson: Same entry moved and we're just going to put them back in place.
Inside the structure.
Claybaugh: But that's the existing positioning of the entry to the house?
Dan Anderson: Yes, correct.
Claybaugh: Okay. And with respect to the 2.6 feet, is that dimension to the outside of
the eaves? Staff.
Generous: The 2.6 feet would be to the wall.
Claybaugh: To the wall, okay.
Dan Anderson: There again I think we have about a 12 inch or 11 inch soffit and fascia
and that can even be worked with design wise, Backing up a little bit to your question,
that is not the front entryway to this house. That's just an entryway to the side door to
what's currently the kitchen. The actual, they're calling it the front door. It's the
basement entrance on a lower level.
Claybaugh: Right, so the stairs that you're pointing to are a consequence of building a
new vestibule and that's where you orientate them?
Dan Anderson: Right.
Claybaugh: Okay. That's all the questions I have.
Sacchet: Any other questions of the applicant?
Lillehaug: Sure, I have a question. Looking at that same diagram there, you're carrying
that wall on the top I'll say. Other wall, directly across from it, yep. You're projecting
that out from the existing wall of the garage.
Dan Anderson: Yeah, we're just lining it up.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Lillehaug: Why, and the problem is when you get to the top right corner, that's where the
encroachment is across the setback. So why do you have to carry the house, the portion
of the house wall, why does that have to carryon from the garage? Why can't it be
shifted at the back of the garage where it is conforming? Shift it 2.6 feet and then you
have a parallel wall going back. You do lose a little square footage in the house but it
still needs a variance. Do you see a problem in that? And just one more thing, and I
think it's a pantry if I were to look back on this. I mean that can be reduced in size and
maybe even relocate it, and then you'll still have a conforming bathroom and stairwell
and you're just basically the reducing the size of the pantry. Is that not doable?
Dan Anderson: It's not the pantry that I'm worried about reducing and... It's having
people walk in and out of this hallway. If in fact this, I'll draw a line here. If this moved
in, and this is our work space, now we have an architecturally, we have an architectural
issue here about it being in the way of the hallway. Having a clear hallway to shut this
off and walk in and out of this. Because this is their main living area right now. Kids are
here. The main area for the family is right here. I'm trying just to keep this open and
keep it so it matches the rest of the architecture and to angle this wall wouldn't be, that
would be an.
Sacchet: Architectural harasses?
Dan Anderson: Yeah. That'd be like, yeah no, no. Bad idea.
Lillehaug: We're talking just 2 Yz feet I mean.
Dan Anderson: Well 2 Yz feet, what that measurement is right there and that puts you in
the doorway. When you're ending up with the kitchen cabinets that way.
Sacchet: Yeah once you have a counter.
Dan Anderson: Once you put a counter in there, and I'm standing there. Well if I'm
standing there you're definitely not going to get through the door.
Lillehaug: Okay.
Dan Anderson: You understand what I'm saying?
Li llehaug: That's all I have.
Sacchet: One more Craig?
Claybaugh: Yeah. To dovetail Steve's question here. The L return on the left side of the
sink, on your cabinetry there, what is that? There's no dimensioning on it. It runs
parallel with the pantry.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
Dan Anderson: Right here?
Claybaugh: Yeah. That dog leg return there.
Dan Anderson: That right there is about 1 foot 8.
Claybaugh: In terms of the projection. I'm looking at the base cabinets there, on the wall
that the sink is located. Those are going to be a 2 foot depth so just I'm thinking that dog
leg out of there has got to at least 3 foot 6.
Dan Anderson: I don't have my full set of plans here but this, where it turns 90 and goes
this way, that's actually about 2 foot 8 to 3 foot right in there.
Claybaugh: Okay. So actually if, there certainly is, you'd lose the L return on it and I
understand you don't want to walk down a hallway into the back of somebody preparing
food, but.
Dan Anderson: Well my only issue is, then I only have about 10 inches to stand.
Claybaugh: If you take all of it. I'm talking about mitigating the first, okay. That's the
extent of my questions.
Sacchet: Okay. Anything else you want to add from your end? Rich has a question,
Slagle: Mr. Chair, I thought someone might ask a question about the deck but let me just
ask you know what are your thoughts from the deck as far as falling within either the
setback or reaching some type of compromise with the staff's recommendation and your
proposal.
Dan Anderson: Can you see what I sketched there. I could do something like this to
make this work here. The grade is such that I would have liked to have the stairs built
within that square footage of the deck. As it is, the deck is kind of exposed from down
over here. We don't want them to cross the front because it blocks off views but they can
come off over here, and we could do something like this over here would be kind of sharp
looking. It would also look architecturally correct and have enough footage here where
people can pass. That we can work with. That's not an issue. You can just see the
layout on the main house, it flows so nicely and it all works the way it should work by
keeping my 6 foot into the setback. And maybe even a compromise with 2 foot 6.
Maybe you know I'll split the difference or something because that would give me, if you
split the difference on that one, as you had said, we'd probably have a good foot and a
half if you're standing there and have people walk by and not be an issue.
Claybaugh: You know we want to leave you really with any less than possibly 2 feet but
I don't have any dimensions on the plan.
Sacchet: Alright, thank you very much.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
Dan Anderson: Thank you.
Claybaugh: I did have one extra. Did you explore options with locating the stairs?
That's one of the things that you identified as your string of code issues starting with the
current hallway, code bathroom, and code stairs. Obviously did you explore possibly
taking it in through the living room or orientating those slightly differently to possibly
recapture some of that space that you're requiring a variance for?
Dan Anderson: Ah yes. Let me pull up existing structure. If you look at the way that the
property sits in it's current state, you'll see that that is the most natural way to pull the
stairs up. There's currently stairs right here. But when I put the stairs, if I leave those
stairs where they currently land, I then tear up this whole, this spot right here and I've got
a dead spot here.
Claybaugh: Right, no I'm not suggesting that you should orientate them where they
currently are, but in terms of adjusting them or aligning them a couple feet, I don't have
any note there on the drawings either. I'm talking in terms of mitigating. I'm just asking
if you explored it. Architectural orientation out there, some structural components that
prohibited you from doing that.
Dan Anderson: Structure, the old corner of the house is right here and there's less
messing around with the whole roof, the wall system, the concrete blocks the wall, where
they're currently stay we want to keep them. And outside as well as the inside right here.
Claybaugh: Okay, but you did explore it?
Dan Anderson: Yes.
Claybaugh: Okay, thank you.
Sacchet: One more architectural question. You made it pretty clear that angling the wall
would be pretty awful architecturally. Would it be as awful to put a jig in it rather than
one straight line?
Dan Anderson: We had thought about that about where the sink is, or where this stove
goes, you can jog it in. There again you move the island in, it interrupts the door and
then there's a lot of wasted space in there with the cabinetry. I think this is better, a
simple compromise on the 2 foot 6 setback is either we split it or we work with what, you
know go into the setback 2 foot 6 are the two best options.
Sacchet: It seems like there's quite a bit of space on the other side of the island.
Dan Anderson: Over here? Yeah, there is. Oh, there's this space out here but I think
what you've got to look at, if you put yourself in this kitchen. I don't know if I've got a,
I've got to look through this to see if I've got a cross section. Finished cross section.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
Okay, right here. Now we've got to zoom on that thing. There. If right here.. .come
forward. This whole cabinet right here goes away. This thing goes away. And to keep
that line straight is going to take me away from just orientating the kitchen and having
that wasted space there.
Sacchet: Okay, thanks.
Claybaugh: I'm sorry.
Sacchet: Yeah, go ahead Craig. You've got another one?
Claybaugh: You identified the hallway inbetween the pantry and the powder room there
as it's labeled, as a code hallway. My dimensions on that, and like I said they're
extremely small here on the reprint but it looks like 4 foot 8 l/z.
Dan Anderson: Which one you looking at there?
Claybaugh: I'm looking at the hallway. Inbetween the pantry and the powder room.
Dan Anderson: Okay.
Slagle: You're saying up on the landing of the kids room, is where you see it?
Dan Anderson: Right.
Sacchet: It's hard to read.
Claybaugh: Now obviously the door opening is 3 foot and that's what you want but
you've got 4 foot, and I don't know if that's inside frame, an inside frame and then
you've got 4 foot 8 Yz but that's certainly in excess of what code requires, unless it's
something I'm not aware of.
Dan Anderson: Correct.
Claybaugh: Okay, what would you site as code for that application?
Dan Anderson: Well we could probably skinny that up about, I could probably skinny
that up, I think if we were to split that number and jog this.
Claybaugh: What I'm after is if we left you what would be reasonable for an L so
somebody preparing a meal in the kitchen wouldn't be obstructing the flow of the
hallway. Backing off that 3 foot 6 dimension that you identified and mitigating the width
and getting that down to more of a code width on the hallway that you've got between the
pantry and the powder room, combination of those two I would expect would match your
2 foot 6, at which point at the back of the garage you could jog that addition. So that
your kitchen layout could still function. It wouldn't compromise the code restroom. It
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
certainly wouldn't compromise because the hallway isn't to code right now. It's In
excess of code.
Dan Anderson: I think we could probably get those... it'd probably be pretty close. If I
brought this back...
Sacchet: There it is. Saw the back of your head instead of the drawing. Alright.
Dan Anderson: That right there. I forgot that measurement. Foot and a half or so, but
that does go back to my statement of splitting it or something. That gets us closer
obviously.
Claybaugh: Right, but I mean if you drew a line down the side of the hallway and you
narrowed that hallway up to even 3 foot 6. You had a 3 foot 6 hallway through there,
okay. You come out of there, as best I can ascertain, it's 4 foot 8 Yz and it's very small on
my drawings, okay. So that's a net of a foot 2 1/2. You said 3 foot 6 is what your L
return or your dog leg return was on your cabinetry. 2 feet would be reasonable I think.
Okay. So that's a net of 1 foot 6 and you picked up 1 foot 2 so you actually got a couple
inches to take back and work with however you want to redistribute it.
Dan Anderson: That makes sense.
Claybaugh: Okay.
Sacchet: Go ahead Rich.
Slagle: I apologize but I thought more about my deck question. Is it safe to say that the
deck was built, the old deck was built prior to the Johnson's purchasing the property?
Dan Anderson: No question. There's pictures in your packet that show that it was an
existing structure. Actually it was pretty unsafe and they were trying to make it safe.
There's a couple bad footings that we had to fix up and that kind of thing.
Sacchet: Alright, thank you very much. Good discussion, This is a public hearing so if
anybody wants to come forward, address this item, this is your chance. Anybody want to
express any aspects about this case? Please come forward. Nobody come forward, I'll
close the public hearing. Oops, there's somebody. If you want to state your name and
address for the record. Let us hear what you have to say please. Alright, it's all your's.
Dave Bangasser: Hi. I'm Dave Bangasser. The property directly to the east that we're
spending quite a bit of time talking about. 3633 South Cedar Drive. It's been in my
wife's family for about 60 years. You'd think that if the property's been in my wife's
family that long that maybe she'd be here talking to you, but we took a vote and when the
vote was over, it was quite clear to me that my vote didn't count. We're generally very
positive about the plan.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Sacchet: Just to clarify, you're on the side where they want to be closer? Okay. Just to
be real clear about that.
Dave Bangasser: Just to the east.
Sacchet: Where that side yard setback is being requested?
Dave Bangasser: So again, we're generally very positive about the plan. I think the
designer has been very creative with the plan, both the layout of the plan and particularly
the tower is a great design. We do have a concern for the side yard setback. The last
time I talked to Tom, some time in the fall. We went out there and looked at it and I
think Tom you indicated that you were going to jog the wall and you weren't going to ask
for a variance there. And the next thing I knew 4 days ago I got a notice saying you were
asking for a variance. Needless to say I was surprised by that. We have a relatively tight
40 foot lot. One of the smallest on the lake. Again, as Bob mentioned, it's a very old
subdivision. At 70 feet the Johnson's property is one of the biggest lots in the area. Not
the biggest but among the bigger lots there. Because of the way the property line angles,
and obviously that's a lot of the problems that we're talking about here. Because of the
way the property line angles, the addition, and in particular the deck. In particular the
deck, we really have a problem with the deck. With that angle, the deck appears to be
oriented more towards our lakeshore, Not completely but again because of that angle it's
geared towards our lakeshore so when we're down by the beach, if they're out on the
deck, which as proposed is within 5 feet of the property, it just felt to us like we'd be
almost imposing upon their space. I have to say I was really irritated that you showed the
deck within 5 feet of the property line and never bothered to call. There's absolutely no
function for it. There's no reason to line everything up. If anything, jogs add interest
architecturally and I clearly was not happy with that. My wife was not happy with that.
There's an existing mature evergreen tree that's right at the corner of that proposed deck
which would have to go if the plan was built as proposed. That evergreen provides a nice
buffer there right now. I think enough's been said about the plan itself. Again I see no
purpose for what appears to me to be a 57 foot long deck across the front of that property.
The kitchen, I agree with the earlier comments that you know I think modifications could
be made. Quite frankly the house, I don't have a problem with. I think you've done a
nice job of minimizing the windows that are oriented towards our property. I really
wouldn't have strong objections with that but the deck clearly is an issue. We'd like to
see that deck pulled back as far as possible. Again I think with the creativity that you've
displayed with the design, I don't know why some of these modifications couldn't be
made and still be a very functional house for you and you know again, we support all the
other variances. We're concerned about the side yard setback. We think it'd be a
wonderful addition to the neighborhood and that's all I have to say.
Sacchet: Thank you very much. Anybody else want to address this item? If not, I'll
close the public hearing. Bring it back to commissioners for comments and discussion.
Anybody?
Lillehaug: Mr. Chair, could I ask a couple questions of staff?
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Sacchet: Go ahead.
Lillehaug: I just want to get a clarification on the deck and encroachment of the deck, as
well as the eaves into the side yard setback. My understanding is the eaves are supposed
to be, they are supposed to be included in the setback?
Generous: They're part of the variance, correct.
Lillehaug: But they're not included as part of the variance right now as far as the
distance, is that right?
Generous: That's my understanding. They're not incorporated.
Lillehaug: So actually the variance would have to be even more than it's shown?
Generous: For the eaves, yes.
Lillehaug: 11 inches I guess more. Okay. Now the second part of the question is the
deck. Can the deck encroach into the side yard setback?
Generous: The deck may encroach to within 5 feet of the side property line.
Sacchet: Is that it? Okay. We have some more answers. Any discussion? Comments,
Claybaugh: Would it be possible Mr. Chair to have the applicant comment with respect
to the evergreen buffer? That it was something that hadn't been addressed.
Sacchet: Do you want to address that?
Claybaugh: I don't know if that's appropriate or not.
Sacchet: Yeah, it's a valid question. I mean the concern that the neighbor brought up
with the evergreen would have to be cut down because of the deck expansion.
Dan Anderson: I think we've already made a general decision. As I commented earlier,
Rich's question on the deck, we can work with the deck. That's not a major importance.
I couldn't agree more with the neighbor on the deck. We can tie that back into a nice
design on that...
Tom Johnson's could not be heard.
Sacchet: You can work with it?
Tom Johnson: We can work with that.
Sacchet: Okay. Alright, with bringing the deck in some.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
Tom Johnson: I think that's fine.
Sacchet: Yeah, I wonder whether that would actually make this, take the space for that
evergreen.
Dan Anderson: Trim off that tree a little bit but not enough to damage the tree or lose...
The key is the buffer, is the way I understood it.
Sacchet: Okay, thank you. Comments. Discussion from the commissioners. Anybody.
Lillehaug: Can I ask staff one more question?
Sacchet: Yes.
Lillehaug: Could you put the sketch back up showing the 75 foot OHWL line In
reference to that tree. That's the tree we're talking about.
Generous: 75 feet actually because the shoreline of the lake is a little closer than that. I
was showing the 12 foot deck extension so this basically is a straight line.
Lillehaug: Now a deck cannot encroach into the 75 foot.
Generous: Correct.
Lillehaug: Okay.
Dan Anderson: Can I ask one question? What was the side yard setback for a deck? 5
feet?
Generous: 5 feet.
Aanenson: Just to be clear, when someone's asking for a variance, you can attach any
reasonable condition you want to to mitigate that, and that might be the encroachment
into the side yard. So while that's a standard...
Claybaugh: Point of clarification Mr. Chair?
Sacchet: Go ahead.
Claybaugh: 5 foot setback with respect to the deck. Is that something that's
grandfathered in because the existing deck is within 5 feet or is that?
Generous: No. The code provides...
Claybaugh: The code does provide so it isn't the 10 foot for that. Okay.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Aanenson: For a deck only.
Sacchet: Alright. Where do we stand with this?
Lillehaug: Well I can start in comments.
Sacchet: Go ahead.
Lillehaug: I'm going to hit the four points I guess that we're talking about. First of alII
think the applicant has reasonable use of the property as it currently is. I think that's the
number one point that needs to be made. Number two point I guess would be is, I think
we need to encourage refurbishing of the house. It's an older house. Somehow we need
to encourage that but I guess number one, impervious area. My position is not increasing
that at all, and I would stand firm on that. Whatever happens we cannot increase that
impervious area because it's already non-conforming and it's grossly non-conforming.
Front yard setback, you know I don't have a huge problem with it but I really do think
there's already a reasonable use of that existing garage. To me it appears it's 24 foot
deep. That's a standard depth of a garage. It's not cramped. That's probably the depth
of my garage if I remember right. So expanding that garage to the front increasing the
non-conformance, you know I'm not totally sold on that either. Side yard setback, I think
there's many, many different options that can be, that could take place inside the house.
Relocating the stairwell to one location or the other. I think I saw 4 baths in the new
layout of the house. Is that a reasonable use? I guess I'm not going to say it is or isn't
but there's many other things that can be done in the layout of that house to not encroach
in that 10 foot side yard setback. I do not support any encroachment in that 10 foot side
yard setback. What else would there be? Number 4. That'd be the wetland, 75 foot
setback. Again, I don't support any encroachment into that at all.
Sacchet: Thanks for laying it out Steve. Any other comments?
Claybaugh: Yeah, I'll take a stab at it. Let's see here. With respect to the front yard
setback, I agree with my fellow commissioner that 24 feet depth on the garage is
reasonable use. Again the plan that I have doesn't mention what the additional lineal
foot attached to the proposed addition, but I guess I view that as the proliferation of a
non-conformance with respect to, until it gets or achieves the front yard setback and I
haven't totally made up my mind on that. With respect to the side yard setback, I agree
that there's a number of components with the house's interior that could be modified, re-
worked and it's well within their grasp to get that down so it's a variance free application,
With respect to the deck and encroachment of the lakeshore, I don't see a compelling
reason to support that. The, with respect to the hard surface coverage, I would suspect
that when some of these things are addressed that they will be within line with what
they're current non-conformance is and won't require a variance or won't require further
intensification of it so, that's my comments.
Sacchet: Thanks Craig. Any additional comments?
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Tjornhom: Yeah, I might come off sounding crazy I guess after hearing everybody else
but you know, I'm all for taking something old and making it new and improving our city
and making our lakeshores look better and our neighborhoods and so I thought it was a
nice plan. I don't have a problem with expanding the garage. I don't have a problem
with. ..architect or your builder seemed to be reasonable in working with these people
and getting it back into some better parameters with regard to the lakeshore, and I'm still
confused about the side yard setback. I hate to wreck a whole plan and something that
seems to function for 2.6 feet. You know, it just seems to me kind of a crime to, well see
I was thinking, But when the neighbor came up and had problems with it then I think
okay, it is hurting somebody else and it's affecting somebody else and so then maybe it
needs to be re-worked and so I guess those are my comments.
Sacchet: Thanks Bethany.
Slagle: I will just make my quick. I think I would tag along with Bethany, and especially
when she mentioned the functionality of the plan. I think it's a well thought out plan. I
think with the concern of the neighbor, it led me to this thinking and the thinking is that it
might be worth tabling this and allowing them to work out potential plan that could take
into account the neighbors...
Sacchet: Real quick where I stand. It's not a hardship but I think it's a reasonable use to
expand on that whole garage. I think that's pretty clear. I agree with staff's position
basically with the whole thing with one addition. I would like to see a condition that we
preserve that evergreen. I think that would balance the scale in terms of the neighbors
concern. But other than that I agree with staff. I'm not sure whether it needs to be
tabled. I think the position is relatively clear. I think we've worked through different
options. We established that there are ways to work it and I have full trust, I mean
you've obviously put in a real quality project together here so personally I don't think we
need to see it again. So with that I'd like to see a motion please. Can we make this into
one motion or do we have to make it in two steps?
Generous: Well you could combine them. One's for approval and the rest are denial.
Lillehaug: I'll make a motion.
Sacchet: Go ahead Steve.
Lillehaug: I make a motion the Planning Commission approves a 19.3 foot front yard
setback variance to permit a 10.7 foot front yard setback for the expansion of the house at
3637 South Cedar Drive based on the findings of fact in the staff report and subject to the
following conditions which aren't number but I would number them, 1,2,3,4 and 5.
Sacchet: Five would be the new one? No, no there's one on the other side there, okay.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Lillehaug: And then 6 would be the new one. And the condition would be, to fully
preserve the tree that we were speaking of.
Sacchet: Evergreen to the east of the deck.
Lillehaug: Yes.
Sacchet: We know which one you're talking about. We have a motion, IS there a
second?
Claybaugh: I'll second.
Slagle: Point of clarification.
Sacchet: Go ahead Rich.
Slagle: So are we suggesting that this motion is to deny the applicant's request for a side
yard setback and a lakeshore?
Sacchet: Yes, that will be the next motion. Should we make it into one motion?
Generous: Well you can add that as the second part of the motion.
Sacchet: We probably should make it into one.
Lillehaug: Okay. And then should I just keep going on with my motion then?
Sacchet: Yes. Why don't we add that to it.
Lillehaug: Okay. And adding to my previous motion, I recommend that the Planning
Commission denies the side yard shoreland, and lot coverage variance for the expansion
of the house, Same house, in according with the findings of fact in the staff report.
Sacchet: Do we need another second since we added?
Claybaugh: Yes, I'll second again.
Sacchet: Okay. We have a second to both paI1s. Any discussion? Friendly
amendments?
Slagle: Another clarification. Just so we're clear, we, myself, I'll speak for myself.
Approve of giving them the side variance setback and a lakeshore setback and the front
yard setback, assuming that the deck would work, will actually be voting against this
motion?
Sacchet: Say again.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Aanenson: Yes.
Sacchet: I lost you. Okay, you got an answer. Whatever the question.
Slagle: What I'm trying to say is, there's a motion to approve the way it's written.
Sacchet: Pretty much the way it's written, yes. That's correct. We're basically
approving the front yard variance. We're denying the side yard, shoreland and coverage
variance request. Okay? Alright, we have a motion. We have a second.
Lillehaug moved, Claybaugh seconded that the Planning Commission recommends
denial of the side yard, shoreland and lot coverage variance and recommends
approval of a 19.3 foot front yard setback variance to permit a 10.7 foot front yard
setback for the expansion of the house at 3637 South Cedar Drive, based on the
findings of fact in the staff report and subject to the following conditions:
1. The impervious surface shall be reduced to less than the current 43.9 percent
impervious surface. The driveway shall be removed and re-vegetated as shown
on the attached "Impervious Surface Reduction" schematic to achieve a reduction
in the impervious surface.
2. Tree protection fencing must be installed prior to any work commencing around
all trees near the construction limits. Fencing shall remain in place until all
construction is completed.
3. The applicant shall work with staff to provide a vegetative buffer between the
principle structure and Lake Minnewashta.
4, Permits must be obtained before beginning construction, alterations or demolition.
5. The tower and other elements of the project which are beyond the scope of
Chapter 9 of the Minnesota State Building Code must be designed by a licensed
engIneer.
6. The applicant shall fully preserve the evergreen located to the east of the
deck.
All voted in favor, except Slagle and Tjornhom who opposed, and the motion
carried with a vote of 3 to 2.
Sacchet: There's two nays and three ayes. That means this has to go to City Council.
Aanenson: Correct.
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Planning Commission Meeting - February 17, 2004
Sacchet: Automatically goes to City Council. We need a big majority to make this.. .so
since it's not a big majority you will see the City Council on that, and they will make a
final decision. Do we know when this goes to City Council?
Aanenson: It'd be the 8th.
Sacchet: On the 8th?
Aanenson: Correct.
Sacchet: Okay. In summary for council, we, this is a very interesting mix of situations. I
think everybody, certainly you should specify why you voted nay. What we voted for
here 3 to 2 is that we do agree with front yard setback. That we consider that a
reasonable use. That we do not agree to give a variance on the side yard setback because
we think there are ample possibilities to mitigate that, as well as with the deck. We
definitely want to have the coverage reduced, not increased. That's the one area where
we can mitigate the non-conformance of the situation, or the shoreland setback is the
most sensitive in terms of the nature so anything you want to add in the for side? Why
we are voting for this.
Claybaugh: Yeah actually clarification. I made the point previously in my comments
about the 24 foot deep garage. I think that was an argument for intensifying that non-
conformity but in looking a little closer at the plans, I believe it's less a function of the
garage depth and more a function of making the bedrooms above it work out. And as
such I don't have any reservations about that. I wanted to clarify that.
Sacchet: Any more comments? Okay, the cons. Any comments why you voted against
for City Council ? You want to summarize your issue?
Slagle: Concurring on the efforts on the deck, and then probably having.. .on the
description of ample.
Sacchet: So what would be your balance point?
Slagle: I think it's fine...
Sacchet: It's fine encroaching with the kitchen. And the same for you Bethany?
Tjornhom: I'd also like to add that it seemed to me that the neighbor and the applicant
and the builder seem willing to work together to reach a reasonable agreement.
Sacchet: Okay, so let them work basically. And last comment for council, that
evergreen. I think we agree that we'd like to save that evergreen. So that's the summary
for council.
Lillehaug: One more quick comment?
20
Planning Commission Meeting - February 17,2004
Sacchet: Yes, go ahead Steve.
Lillehaug: I think it needs to be a 3 foot 6 inch setback with the eaves. Didn't we clarify
that earlier, and not a 2 foot 6, so it's more than 2 foot 6.
Sacchet: Alright, thank you very much.
PUBLIC HEARING:
REQUEST FOR A COMPREHENSIVE LAND USE AMENDMENT FROM
OFFICE INDUSTRIAL TO OFFICE~ AND A REZONING FROM A2 TO OFFICE
INSTITUTIONAL FOR PROPERTY LOCA TED EAST OF GALPIN
BOULEV ARD AND NORTH OF L YMAN BOULEVARD, ISD #112, PLANNING
CASE NO. 04-08.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Rod Franks
Paul Schlueter
Ben MeITI man
Bev Stofferahn
Ellen Rawson
Lori Juelich
Karen Kennedy
Gary Feldick
Gene Kruchoski
Peggy Emerson
8694 Mary Jane Circle
427 Campfire Cv, Chaska
8156 Mallory Court
8123 Marsh Dri ve
2266 Boulder Road
2246 Stone Creek Lane East
2051 Boulder Road
2231 Boulder Road
2030 Boulder Road
8409 Stone Creek Court
Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item.
Sacchet: Thank you Kate. Questions from staff.
Slagle: Kate, in offering the two options if you will, would there be a reason the
applicant would be opposed to that, from what you know?
Aanenson: No, we did speak to them about that and I think they're comfortable with that.
Again we don't anticipate that, but for some reason the school district decided or couldn't
build the school in the future, it just protects our options of providing industrial, and also
gives the residents some level of protection of what they think might go in there.
Slagle: Okay. On page 3, where it talks about 01 district. Maximum height.
Aanenson: Two stories.
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