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PRC 2004 11 23 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREA TION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING NOVEMBER 23, 2004 Chairman Stolar called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Glenn Stolar, Jack Spizale, Steve Scharfenberg, Paula Atkins, Kevin Dillon, Ann Murphy, and Tom Kelly MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Scharfenberg moved, Atkins seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of7 to O. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Hoffman: Tree lighting ceremony coming up on December, what's the date? 4th? This Saturday night. Ruegemer: 4th. Hoffman: That's at City Center Park from 5:00 to 6:00. It's a great event. Come on down. Bon fire. Santa. Caroling and it's just been a steady, growing crowd each year and now since we've moved it for the third time, people can now get accustomed to the new and final location at City Center Park. Stolar: Any other announcements? Seeing none, move to visitor presentations. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Dillon moved, Atkins seconded to approve the verbatim and summary Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated October 26, 2004 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of7 to O. CONCEPT PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT ON FOX PROPERTY LOCATED IN 2005 MUSA. LUNDGREN BROTHERS CONSTRUCTION. Stolar: I believe a representative from Lundgren Construction is here. Mike Bird: Yep. Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Stolar: If you wouldn't mind coming up to the microphone and introduce yourself. Mike Bird: Certainly. My name is Mike Bird. I'm a project manager with Lundgren Brothers and working on this project. This evening I'm here to answer questions obviously, and to learn for myself about what the city's plans are for parks and trails in the feasibility study area. I've heard some things but I'm not exactly sure where the city's plans are yet. We are looking at, and I think, were materials distributed for something along the lines of this? Stolar: And you can also use the table to show it. Are these TV's working? Mike Bird: So we are looking at a PUD development obviously. All for sale housing and this is the extension of Powers is here. And this is the new east/west collector. We would tie into here and here on the south parcel. Here on the north parcel our intention is to, in the future be able to tie into this parcel here that's been the request of the city and... as well. So we are, Bluff Creek's obviously down here. There we go. Bluff Creek is down in here and... shown is, there's obviously a wooded area in this corner. There's a line of, sort of a fence line of trees here and to a certain extent here. Wetlands here and this actually carries across and would go underneath I guess the Powers extension. Wetland carries through here. There's a small wetland here and another wetland area here. Because of the location of the east/west collector it's kind of cut off from the rest of the site so that will shorten the building space. What we would like to do is create a series of these sort of, I guess we'd call them aqua parks on the south parcel that home sites would be grouped around. And would be I think would be predominantly used by folks that live here, although they're meant to be on public streets would be accessible to everyone. Up in the north parcel there would be another one sort of in the center of the housing units up there. We would also like to figure out how we can install a trail system. Now there's trails that will be along this east/west collector road, I believe on both sides. That's... on the city's feasibility study and then we would want to put trails here ideally that would you know. . . into what's planned for the Bluff Creek. . . total area moves towards this development. We're working right now with city staff, primarily Kate and Bob. The concept plan's been submitted and would go to the Planning Commission in December I believe. And again.. .just here to respond to questions and to learn a little bit more. Stolar: Okay. Todd, do you want to add some points and then we'll open up to commission members. Hoffman: You bet. To give a little bit broader perspective of the 2005 MUSA area. The property that we're looking at is right in this location, which would also include wetland throughout. So that's the property and includes the tree cover right at the, kind of. . . Bluff Creek. This is a real steep grade right through here. So that's by the Bluff Creek preservation zone, intended to be preserved in it's entirety. There's a primary zone and then the concept behind that is you take the density that you would have been allowed if you developed in that area and you transfer it out and you put it in another location. It's very similar to what occurred at Pulte on Highway 5. As you drive by Highway 5 and 2 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 notice there's a large stand of trees, that was preserved as a part of that development. Again taking the density out of that area and utilizing it elsewhere in this area. As far as parks in this entire MUSA area, which runs kind of in a triangular pattern all the way down through. This region is bound by Audubon on the west, Lyman on the north and then new Highway 312/212 on the south. Concept plan here is to take advantage of the Bluff Creek waterway as a wildlife corridor. As a preservation corridor. As a transportation corridor. . . and to compliment that, originally we talked about besides this location, which is 20 to 40 acres, we settled on 20 acres but now the school district has, intending that 20 acres to be not only for park but for an elementary school. The School District is not interested in an elementary school at that location so the city will be looking for a 10 acre site for a public park to service all the residents in this area inside that 1Iz mile service area for public parks. So we want to accumulate park fees from the properties throughout and then acquire this property utilizing those park fees and the dedication from this property whenever it develops. When this property is built park dedication will not acquire the full 10 acres. Will acquire a portion of it but we'll have to take the fees from the remaining areas to finish off the purchase and then develop a park site. Trail plan again, as Mr. Bird stated we have trails at both sides of the collector street, and then a trail system right in through the Bluff Creek corridor. So what is advantageous used to take care of getting access points, obviously access to the property is very easy by trails, but then we also want to get some down through the wooded area in a convenient and proper location to gain access down to Bluff Creek. What people really enjoy as they leave their home on a weekend or evening nights is to take a loop route on the trail systems for their walks or their runs, and they'll be able to utilize the road as either a departing or returning point but then we have to get them off in some other kind of loop down through the corridor so they can make that loop back up to their residence. That adds a high percentage of value to the residences. . . so that's how we continue to attempt to build trails, trail systems throughout the community. So that's the concept for the entire area and we're excited to work with Lundgren on the property. It's about the second or third concept plan for this property in this area. Town and Country's already been in down in this location. There have been some other concept plats, or at least concept plans for some of the other properties as well, so we think from a city's perspective it's coming together very nicely. The planning department is doing a good job in working with both engineering and parks and rec and all the landowners and then ultimately the applicants to make sure this is put together in. . . to maximize the utility and preservation of the natural features in the area. So now we'll both take questions from the commission. Stolar: Steve, questions? Scharfenberg: Todd you talked about that, this parcel here being a 20 acre parcel and we're purchasing 10. Is there any reason why we wouldn't just purchase the whole 20 and dedicate it towards a park? Hoffman: Again, just the size of the, we don't use 20 acres for a public park. 10 acres, our minimum size is 5 and so we looked at the 10 acres. The more land you start to 3 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 acquire, remember this type of value, $150,000-$200,000 an acre property and so I'm not sure that we have the capacity to acquire the full 20 acres... Scharfenberg: And Mike, what's the time line of development for this piece of property? Mike Bird: Well we have a concept plan in with the intention that we would be back in February with a preliminary plat application. We would hope that by summer we would be ready to do some site work and get ready to build home sites. Scharfenberg: And then going back to that previous map. You indicated within, these are just all little area parks. You indicated that you've come up with. Mike Bird: Right. I think largely because of the depth of the site, it lays out nicely to, not to have two rows but to have one and then you can kind of create these little pockets and create green open space that the homes would face out onto. And I think creates a nice sort of community honestly when you get these nice, you know 1 or 2 of those would have sort of the prototypical totlot. Slide, things like that but the other ones could be anything they want to be. A little green people could use and could be designed to a variety of things. Scharfenberg: Now is this considered one big neighborhood in this area or separate neighborhoods or? Mike Bird: Well to give you a sense of scale, we're looking at, the plan we have now, has a total of328 homes on all 74 acres combined. So those parks would have maybe 20 to 40 homes gathered around it. Scharfenberg: I don't have anything else? Stolar: Paula? Atkins: I don't have anything. Stolar: Kevin? Kelly: I don't have anything either. Stolar: I have a few questions. One, Todd how much acreage is the tree cover area that we'd like to see? Hoffman: It's rather significant. Mike, do you have a number on that? Mike Bird: I don't. It's probably, I could guess. This is, this rectangle up here is about 22-23. So that's about the same size as this. This is maybe 2/3 of that so maybe in the neighborhood of 15-16 acres. 4 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Hoffman: The scale on this plan is... confusing but this is the general project here that we looked at and the red line is the primary preservation. The blue line is the secondary preservation and that's identified in those trees. It might actually be a little larger than that. That would be a 40 acre square right here. So if you look at that as probably 25, something like that. Stolar: So roughly a third of your development, well not really because some of it overlaps with what you've already identified as open space, but what percentage do you think that would represent of what you wanted to develop? Acreage wise. Mike Bird: Well the 74 acre number is the number of acres that our land planners have given us to believe is developable. Some of which is in this wooded area. There's a, this area along the east side of the wooded area has steep slopes and would not be developable. And so what DSU has sought to do here is give an accurate representation of what is possible given the land use. Stolar: Gotch ya. Okay. And then how many units are represented over there in the treed area? Mike Bird: Off the top of my head, I want to say somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 to 60. They'll have units sort of...I don't recall. Stolar: Okay. I'm going to ask another question later. Murphy: I don't have any questions right now. Dillon: What is going to be the price range for the four-plexes and row homes that are proposed? Mike Bird: It changes every day. I think they were in the 250 to 350 range. One of the things we're trying to do is talk to Town and Country. Talk to other developers that are interested in this area. Make sure we're not all you know brining the exact same thing, and so that could change but I think we're targeting the 250 to 350 range. Dillon: And why that type of development there? I mean what is it that, I mean what market factor or what factors contribute to making, that lead to that being a good choice for this type of property. Mike Bird: Well, I think there's probably two things that drive it. One is what we understand to be the market need in this neck of the woods. No pun. From, I've done a market study and from building in communities nearby. We're not building this type of home right now in Chanhassen I don't believe, but we are building out in this area in some other communities... understands to be the most desirable from a marketing perspective. There's also some of the, one of the realities about this area is that land values are relatively high. It's difficult for any developer to come in and spread units out 5 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 over relatively expensive land. Figure out a way to make it... so those are probably the two things driving it. Dillon: So who would be the target market for these? Would it be people with empty nester types or younger family types or where? Mike Bird: The units, we find both. Young families find it very appealing as a first home or as a move up home for a lot of people. We're looking at 2 and 3 bedroom homes so that's very appealing to people with kids. In fact 3 bedroom, 3 bath homes, which is for that kind of price is very attractive to people. So we do get a lot of young families. We also do get empty nesters who are interested in the kind of free lifestyle, so it's interesting to us, from the communities that I've visited and spoken with people in, I'm sorry by communities I mean other developments we have. There's not necessarily one demographic package or one type of product, so you don't have a development that have twin homes and is back to back quad type units and some other things, and people who are looking at twin homes, which is another thing we often build, people are attracted to those. You know young families, empty nesters. It's kind of interesting. I wouldn't expect that it would be people you know. . . one or the other product. By building communities that have a range of different home types we've been able to serve a pretty big segment of the market. Dillon: So what's the timing on 212? If all were to go according to plan, when would that be constructed through this neck of the woods, pardon the expression. Mike Bird: Neck of the wetland in their case. They have told us that, first of all they've delayed letting the engineering contract until supposedly February or March, but they believe it's still possible to start doing some site work in the late spring, early summer of this 2005. Now, you know it's anybody's guess is anybody else's. The legislature could swing a different direction. MnDot could change their priorities and all we can do is call every week and see what's changed. Hoffman: 2007 you'll probably see cars on there. Dillon: So not that far away. I mean in terms of a developer's point of view, do you see that as a real plus or a minus? I mean the plus is access. The minus is noise and other stuff. I mean from my point of view, I mean how do you guys see it? Mike Bird: We see it as a plus. The visibility of new homes in that, you know not just on the parcel that we're considering but on other parcels will be fantastic obviously. And it will more than anything else it's a convenience issue. People want to live there, well heck they can get into downtown, you know X number of minutes faster that way. So it is a pretty big, a pretty big asset to anybody developing in the feasibility study area. . . Dillon: That's all for me, thank you. Mike Bird: Okay, thanks. 6 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Stolar: Jack? Spizale: Nothing for me. Stolar: Great. Any comments, discussion from the commission members? Todd, related to this initiative. Obviously we're early in the planning process. Were you looking for a sense of the commission at this point but this is just the first step and we'll talk later? Hoffman: Yeah, any direction the commission can give to the applicant and staff, the more information, the more communication we have at this time the better because once they go into the preliminary process it's. Stolar: Any? Scharfenberg: The comment about the looping trail. I wouldn't agree with that. I think that that's a good point that it's good enough just to walk out and turn around and come back. We go on walks and we like that type of route. Stolar: Okay. Since we don't have a formal motion in front of us. We're speaking as individuals as input. Obviously as we go forward we'll have more formality. As I see your layout there, vis a vis what we had hoped to keep as open space, there's a big gap. And I know you guys are going to work together and talk through that. It's very important as we've learned from some of our sister cities around here, that as you start getting rid of your last open spaces, and turn them into development, you keep in mind the long term beauty of the city. And it's beneficial for you as you develop it. It's beneficial after you're long gone and the city has to look at what they have. So as an individual on this commission, not as a commission, I would love to see us error on the side of keeping as much of that as possible. Within reason. Got to have feasible, you know a feasible plan that you can live with. Otherwise nothing happens. But in addition to Kevin's looping trail, the loop is also encompassing getting people to be able to see the Bluff Creek corridor and the more we can make that a distinction, that makes that whole area, much like the highway makes it visible. A highway that overlooks a nice, little clump of trees overlooking some trails that go in there and they say wow, that's kind of nice. So I would lean that way. Obviously I'm looking to staff to work with you. It's a lot of discussions. Long way to go on this. But to the extent that we can keep that open space noticeable and important would be appreciated. Mike Bird: There's been some confusion between ourselves, our land planners and what we've heard from city staff...about whether or not that area is buildable. It's in the primary zone and Kate and Bob are helping us understand what that is, but our land planners say well heck, you can still build there so we're not, one of the reasons that we're doing this as a PUD has some advantages, is that we can transfer the density from there. Ifwe were able to do that, if other things allow us to do that, how the net density can be transferred and obviously we can limit our encroachment into that wooded area. So we've got this plan. Our planners insist that it's in compliance with the rules and 7 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 regulations, but at the same time we're not in... We're willing to look at reconfiguring it. Look at how we can group things on the side or talk to Kate and Bob about that this afternoon, we had a meeting, and that would be transfer some of the density and still hopefully make the numbers work and make the best use of that for. . . planning folks, for us and for other people who are going to be enjoying this for the rest of their lives. Stolar: I appreciate that. I mean that's exactly what I think we all want. Mike Bird: Yeah, and we, we looked at that initially and then got some feedback about you know relative densities, things like that that suggested maybe we should spread out a little bit and after some of that wooded area for home sites, and in the meantime you know we've had work upstairs with Kate and Bob and I think we're figuring it out. One of the things that we've done as an organization, we, you know one of the realities of being a large home builder is that you don't build every single thing in the entire world. You build some things very well and you focus on those. When we got feedback from the city saying well, you know we don't want to see certain types of product. We said well okay, well then we could do it this way, which unfortunately would involve encroaching into that wooded area but it fits what you're asking us for in terms of the kind of mix and variety and things like that. What we've decided to do also is enter into a discussion with another developer who builds at a much higher density. Is capable of building a much higher density and that way we can again, back out of the woods again. Build up higher densities on the rest of the site, which we don't do. We can't do that kind of densities and these guys can and it's a product that city staff recommended that we investigate so we're trying to be very creative and bring people, you know they're developers. They can help us make this project move forward in a way that city staff has indicated that they and City Council want it to happen, so we're talking to them. Juggle all these balls and see what comes out. We're not, this is not the, this is not a final offer. Stolar: Understood. Thank you. Appreciate it. Kelly: Just one question. Is this definitely something new for Lundgren? I always just associated Lundgren with more of the true single family homes. This seems to be a venturing out. At least particularly the developments you have in Chanhassen and up in Plymouth and things like that. Mike Bird: Well it's really not. We, Lundgren develops, we have a sister organization I guess, Orrin Thompson Homes. We're both part of one large organization. Kelly: Right. Mike Bird: That's where, when it says Lundgren Brothers Homes... you just never know. So we develop land on every tract and prepare home sites so they can build back to back, quads and twin homes and things like that. So we, where we build... single load, underground parking condos here in the next few years and in this market, which we've never done before but we're trying to move with the times and develop new, interesting things for people. 8 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Kelly: In the parks that you've proposed within the neighborhood, is there any type of a pool or tennis court that I know is in some of your other communities? Mike Bird: We haven't looked at a pool in this area. It probably merits some consideration but we had, we don't currently have that planned. Kelly: And will Lundgren be maintaining these parks or will these eventually transfer entirely over to the neighborhood associations once they get formed? Mike Bird: Eventually it transfer over entirely. We have responsibility for setting them up legally and financially. And we actually sit on the boards of the homeowners associations for the first year or two until it's self sustaining and we know it can support itself and then we let them take over. Scharfenberg: On this map, is it trail or proposed trails? Is it all just on the south side... Hoffman: Lyman may have a trail on both sides. It's really undetermined, undecided at this point. There's a lot of talk about having Lyman upgraded. At that time a determination would be made. It's a road very similar to Powers and Powers has a trail on both sides. This collector road will have a trail on both sides. Ifwe can add Lyman to have a trail on both sides, we'll be doing that. Scharfenberg: Just because I envision when 212 comes in that Lyman's going to be very busy. And then that intersection at Lyman and Powers right now will be a busy intersection, and I see that crossing, is that going to be an underground crossing proposed at Lyman? Going underneath Lyman. Hoffman: Yes. Proposed at the creek way. Bluff Creek we want to keep the entire trail in the entire Bluff Creek corridor without having to cross the road traffic or have you cross at grade. They're all under passes throughout the entire corridor. Makes for a safe trail experience for anybody who's... I think I want to make sure, I think everyone's starting to grasp that concept of preservation within Bluff Creek corridor. When the city identifies these types of lines, it's difficult to see I know but there's a line that travels throughout here. The red one is the primary corridor. The blue one is the secondary corridor. City governments can say, and it's purely reality here, you can't build in wetlands. You can't build in water ways. You can't build on bluffs. But the fact that there's a woods there doesn't mean you just can't take, you can't take that development right away without giving something back to the applicant and that's where the PUD and the give and take comes in. Cities simply can't circle areas in a community and say oh, we just want to keep this. When you come in to develop this, when the landowner sells it, there's no value here because we just think it's really nice and we want to keep it. By taking you have to give something back and that's what the applicant will work with the city on, and when it comes down it, you may not be able to preserve every last square inch of it. You may be able to and that's just. .. They need to get something back. You can't just take that away and say you can't develop there. Unless you want to buy it. 9 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Stolar: And that would be the only way. Hoffman: It's always an option. Or use your park dedication. Stolar: Other questions, comments. Scharfenberg: What's Fox property? Is Fox the current owner or something like that? Mike Bird: Yes. The Fox family. Two separate ownership parcels. The north parcel is owned separately from the south parcel. We obviously. . . Scharfenberg: Mike, is Lundgren involved in any of the other parcels? On that south development? Mike Bird: In the feasibility area? Scharfenberg: Yes. Mike Bird: I can honestly say, not that I know of. Stolar: You've got your project and you're supposed to focus on that. Mike Bird: And I know that most the parcels are spoken for, one way or another. Town and Country is here. Also here. Degler folks own this still. This is an agricultural set aside for Dorsey. Dorsey's own that parcel that Degler use as well. Everybody and their brother is talking to Degler's. So we probably are too but we don't control any other piece of land in this feasibility study. Hoffman: Bring your checkbook. Dillon: So the other developers are they single family homes or more townhome type things? I mean. . . Hoffman: More townhomes. Dillon: More townhomes. Mike Bird: I don't know if you've seen the Town and Country feasibility, or concept plan that they sent in, and it was a mixture. It was probably 4 or 5 different types of homes, also sort of aiming for new urbanist kind of, you know walkable streets. A mixture of different types of price points and home types for folks. It's a very nice project if you get a chance to look at it. And I think they're, do you know what's planned here Todd? Hoffman: I haven't seen that one. 10 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Mike Bird: I've heard that they're interested in doing townhomes as well so, that's their presentation. Stolar: Thank you Mike very much for coming out and talking with us. I look forward to hearing from you again as we move forward. Mike Bird: You bet. Stolar: Thank you. Alright, have a nice Thanksgiving. 2005 PICNIC RESERVATION FEES. Ruegemer: Thanks Chair Stolar, the rest of the commission. We kind of reviewed the picnic, 2004 picnic information last month but wanting to move forward on group fees. We have calls coming in already for 2005. I have booked about 2 or 3 picnics already for 2005, next August. I wanted to kind of nail down the 2005 and set those fees for that. We did track a lot of information last month and certainly I can answer any questions tonight as it relates to some of the information, evaluation information that was reviewed last month. We did increase the picnics, picnic fees back in 2003 when you reviewed this item at length and reviewed that and decided to go to a two tiered system. And that is really I believe worked out very well. We did break the fees out Monday through Thursday and then Friday through Sunday with the higher rates on the weekends. Starting on Friday so I believe that we're still in the ballpark. Maybe a little bit high on our fees, so it's staff s recommendation that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the 2005 group fees to remain the same as they were in 2004. Stolar: Jack, do you want to start with any questions? Spizale: Probably no questions. I think a 10 percent is a pretty hefty raise and I would kind of feel that it could sit for another year before they go up. Let people get used to that. It seems like there's been no decline in reservations, right from this year. I mean it seems to be. Ruegemer: A little bit. For the most part we're always in that you know 80 to 110 range for full reservations for the year with about at 9 to 10,000 revenue base. That's been pretty consistent or steady the last how many years. Spizale: That's all I've got. Dillon: But this past year the weather probably worked against it a little bit so it would have, could have, should have. Ruegemer: That certainly was a real view of our past summer here. It certainly affected the concessions at Lake Ann. The boat rentals as well. 11 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Murphy: Did you say our rental fees are higher than other cities? Ruegemer: Traditionally in the past they have been a little bit on the higher end of other organizations. Hennepin Parks and/or our surrounding cities. Murphy: Okay. Scharfenberg: You get what you pay for. Ruegemer: Right. We would agree with that. Kelly: The weekends were pretty booked though? Ruegemer: Yeah there were some, you know like Lake Ann, the two covered areas are certainly the most popular, and for the most part yes, they were. A lot of the sites were booked throughout the course of the summer. You see on that kind of tracking system, those were the phone calls received for those particular locations on certain weekends. So a lot of them had multiple phone calls on, so if you were looking for the same weekend as other people, I certainly recorded that on that reservation phone call list. Kelly: If the demand is there, I mean maybe even the weekend rate should go up a little bit more just to kind of see where that sensitivity point really is but. I was reading, I do read all those evaluations and in only a few of them actually said that, I thought only a few of them, throughout the course of the year said that the price was too high. If no one would have said the price was too high, then the price is too low. If no one is complaining about it, I think it's too low but, that's just my thing. I mean I wouldn't have a, if staff wanted to even raise the weekends a little more just to try to, try to you know if demand doesn't drop but beyond that, that's my only comment. Scharfenberg: I would agree with that. I think the people that are looking for a place to have a party or a picnic, I mean they're not shopping price. You know for 10 or 15 bucks or you know even if the more expensive one it's 25 to 30 dollars. You know they want a place that's got the amenities. Is big enough to accommodate the group and is going to be a good venue, and I think, I think the 10 percent on, you know even the high end, $250 fee or whatever like that, I mean I don't think that's going to really change much thinking. I think if they want to come there, they're going to come there and why not, I mean it's, that extra body will pay for, got to make the rounds to the trash cans once more because that was the one comment we got. I mean I don't know so. Spizale: Most the people that use these facilities are Chan residents, right? Ruegemer: Not necessarily. Spizale: What percentage would you say would be, any guess? 12 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Ruegemer: How many people are Chanhassen residents or how many people have a Chanhassen resident in the group booking the picnic because you raise the fees I can guarantee you they're going to find another family member who lives in Chanhassen. I can guarantee it and. Hoffman: A majority of the rentals are booked as resident rentals though. Stolar: 15 of the 95 were non-resident so. Ruegemer: So people are getting around the residency issue. Murphy: So if it' s a corporation, do they book as, can they book as a resident? Ruegemer: No, I try to week out the corporations with that. Usually you ask where their business is located and then you pretty much figure out pretty quick. You know for the most part pretty much know the majority of the businesses in town so. Stolar: Paula. Atkins: Well I think, when we approved raising it 10 percent last year I kind of figured that was going to be good for a little while so I'm, I would recommend keeping it where it is. For another year anyway. That's all. Stolar: We raised it in 2003 for the 2004 season or was it for the 2003 season? Ruegemer: I think it was for the 2003 season. So '05 would be our third season with the same fees if you look at keeping those rates the same. Stolar: Well we have a recommendation in front of us. Does anyone want to make a motion and then we could further debate or refine as needed? No? Dillon: I would move to adopt staff s recommendation to keep the same rates for next year. Atkins: I'll second. Stolar: Motion on the table. Discussion. Spizale: I'll make one comment. If they're used basically by Chanhassen residents, it should be a fair fee because these are our people. You know we don't want to be over priced and if you say, you know you probably know a little bit more what other parks are charging for these types of fees. We should have a fair fee for them and yet be able to sustain our parks and I think 10 percent was a pretty hefty raise that can sit for another year. Stolar: Any other comments? Seeing none, I'll call this to a vote. 13 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Dillon moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to the City Council that the 2005 group picnic reservation fees remain at the same level as 2004. All voted in favor, except Kelly who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 6 to 1. Kelly: With the stipulation that I would have liked to have looked at looking to increase the weekend rates. Stolar: The motion carries, unless anyone wants to pull for some specific. Hoffman: Ann seconded it right? Stolar: Yes. And I think this will be a discussion item again next year and Jerry, I think we were talking about that we were debating whether you needed to track the calls again. That's something maybe you can just in December talk about how you want to approach so that we can, I mean this was very helpful in understanding the situation, but at the same time was it with the call trackings, helpful enough. I think last time we said it's up to you. Ruegemer: Yeah, and it's not that big of a deal. If the commission would like to direct staff to do that again, staff can certainly accomplish that task. Stolar: That'd be great and then, for purposes of presentation next year, if we could look at capacities also. So part of it being, the question I guess that Tom was asking was, you know are we turning away business for specific times that show a low price, where we could have potentially raised it. Whereas other times we clearly, if you look at the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we probably can't give those days away. Of the shelters. Just not a popular day. Something to think about. I don't want to make extra work for you guys but I think that that's really the question at hand. It's more granular than the fees in general as we discussed when we went to the tiered system, but also are there particular times where we noticed that there is greater demand than we are probably able to generate more income. Something to look at this coming year as we talk about this for 2006 fees. Is that? Ruegemer: Yep. Stolar: Okay, thank you. RECREA TION PROGRAMS REPORTS: 2004 HALLOWEEN PARTY EVALUATION REPORT. Stolar: Where are the pictures of the different commission members dressed in their costumes? 14 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Hoffman: We'll get those. Ruegemer: First of all, I'd like to thank all the commissioners that were out there helping that night. I hope it was fun for everybody who was there to kind of see how the event ran and see all the kids in their costumes and everybody having a good time, so it really does, we did have about, roughly about 900 kids and parents out there that evening. When they'd go through just about all of our 15,000 pieces of candy that night so I think everybody had walked away with a good pail full, which is our goal certainly. It's always a nice event out there at the site, at the Rec Center. It's large enough in a lot of ways that we can accomplish a lot of fun activities in the gyms with face painting and different hair things that kind of went on this year. . . for that, entertainment in the other, in the rec center gym, and then we also with the hay rides it's also a fun thing for people to do out in the area. It was a little wet but we accomplished and we could still you know, hold onto the hay rides for the evening so that seemed to work out fairly well. That night. Just some general comments. Corey and I kind of went down and went through that. We had roughly about 30 to 40 volunteers again from the KEY Club so they are really a blessing to our event. A lot of the kids that are there certainly seem generally happy to be there. It's not just a service project that they're, you know buying down hours on their sentence so to speak but the people really dressed up really nice this year. They were nice to the kids. Every time you looked, they're having fun and laughing and they certainly made comments to that. That they were very pleased and very willing to come back for next year so really a good relationship with the KEY Club at the high school and has really worked out really well for us in the past. We also just had some also commissioners helping out and also some general residents that helped out as well with the event. Everything seems to really flow very well with that. For the most part people pre-registered for the event. Certainly we take walk up's that evening with that so that seems to work out very well. Try to give some raffles and stuff away for the parents to kind of keep them interested a little bit. It's a real fun social event for the parents as well. You witness a lot of neighbors talking to neighbors. A lot of people talking to other people they haven't seen for a while so it's really a good community kind of a feel good event and it seems like it grows a little bit every year so. Stolar: Ann, you want to ask any questions first? Murphy: Well I just noticed that the Touch of Magic received mixed reviews. Really? It just seemed like everybody, the kids seemed to really enjoy it while they were in there but I was surprised. Ruegemer: I think the mixed reviews was from me. I think we're falling into a little bit of a rut with that and I think we need to change. Hoffman: Have you had this for long? Ruegemer: It's a variation of that. Becca is now I think the daughter of Oscar Half Pint. Hoffman: Wow. Family tree. 15 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Murphy: She wasn't supposed to be there, isn't that right or? Ruegemer: Well I think she was but we just needed a little variation. Stolar: So the point Jerry, 15 kids loved it. Gave it mixed reviews. Kelly: I think my wife agrees with you so that's at least 2 people that had mixed reviews about it. But I just wanted to know, who handed out the candy? Who was the guy that walked around with the backpack that kept refilling? He just did an outstanding job. He always showed up right when you needed him. Hoffman: Marvin. Ruegemer: No, that was Mr. Charlie Eiler. Yeah, Charlie. Was he kind of balding. Kelly: No, this was a young guy. Ruegemer: Oh, that was Marvin. Kelly: Oh, just talk about he had the timing down. Ruegemer: Marvin was our playground director for this past summer and also Marvin also worked extensively for the Y. YMCA. He's, all the YMCA programs that happen in the city with kind of the coordination with the City and the Y, Marvin was the lead person out here for a number of years. And now he's no longer with the Y and he worked for us this past summer and he's currently at the Rec Center working. Stolar: He did a great job. I agree with you. Because I remember last year we'd have to run back in and try to get some candy. It really makes it easier. Ruegemer: I'll pass on that information to Marvin. He'll appreciate the comments. Spizale: I agree with you also. I thought that the high schools that were there had just a great attitude and really having fun. You know I mean you could tell. They were just enjoyed being there. They worked good with the kids. I was kind of watching. Ruegemer: Yeah, there wasn't really any screwing around. A couple kids that kind of messed around a little bit but everybody was just like, what can I do. Spizale: They worked hard. Stolar: Are we going to recognize them again this year like we did last year? Ruegemer: We can. 16 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Stolar: Have them come in for, I don't know, maybe the January meeting. We're looking for agenda items for December but I think that's short notice. Ruegemer: Yeah, we can arrange that for January. Stolar: That'd be great because I think what did we have? We had the President and I think the committee chair and we gave them a little certificate last year. Kevin, anything? Dillon: No comments. Stolar: Paula? Atkins: No. I had fun. Spizale: I've got one more comment. As I was watching. I missed it every year because I'm usually hunting or going somewhere, doing something and I just thought it's just one of those neat events that makes this a neat town. You watch all the happy kids and the parents involved and Ijust thought, it's kind of neat to see. Good job. Kelly: You had good costumes. Whoever worked on the costumes this year in the back room, there were some good costumes back in there. And the Gina Maria's pizza. Hoffman: That was top notch, huh. Kelly: Top notch. Stolar: Just a couple of quick questions. Was the attendance up this year? Or about the same? Ruegemer: About the same. It seemed a real manageable crowd. You know for 900 plus people, it seemed to be kind of flowed pretty decent. Stolar: Maybe that was the difference because it seemed like it was constant. It didn't seem like we lost any, and last year I do remember at the beginning it was a way, and then it kind of slowed down and here it just seemed very constant. Kelly: For an hour and a half. Stolar: Which is nice. That's why we need Marvin. Kelly: We need Marvin, yep. Stolar: And then have we, going back on this fee discussion. Have we thought about raising the fee for this? 17 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Ruegemer: We did raise it, it probably was in, well it might have been 2003. It's been $4.00 now for a while. It was $3.00 for, you know $2.00 and $3.00 forever. Yeah, and I mean we certainly can look at that. Raise up to 5 bucks or 6 even. Spizale: 5's kind of an easy one. It's just a 5 spot. Stolar: Something to think about for next year. Especially if we have to bring in a new act. Kelly: I've been wondering too... do we get discounts at Target and some of the area stores where you go buy all this candy and drinks and gum and stuff? Ruegemer: The age old question, huh. I work there for a discount every year at Target and they say well here is a credit card application, if you'd like to save 10 percent today. And no, to be honest with you, no they don't do a whole lot of discounts on their items. Hoffman: Over and above they're already low prices. Ruegemer: Yeah, they're already low. Kelly: I was just curious if they gave us a yank out of a 10 percent discount because it's you know. Ruegemer: The juice, that sort of thing, what's it called. Festival. County Market you know does some of that with some of the food and cookies and that sort of thing so. Stolar: The other thing is with Target, we do this. We do the Easter candy and what else do we get? Those are the two main ones, and it's not just one thing. So I know every year we say about this, I don't know if it' s worth having us trying to talk to them, I don't know. You know as a commission to ask them to. Ruegemer: I mean that's up to you. I mean it's. Hoffman: It's all part of a relationship. If somebody knows somebody. Make a call and let us know. Stolar: I don't know how they go about choosing those guys within each store or if they do that on their own. Kelly: I don't know how they decide who they're going to sponsor. I know they're very good about sponsoring a lot of things, but I don't know what that process is. Stolar: Well that's a question too about sponsorship. I think we've asked them for discounts when we talked to them about sponsorship too. 18 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Ruegemer: Some years are better than others but it depends on really who I think who the manager is. Stolar: Okay, that's what I was wondering. So it's more local related to the individual manager. Ruegemer: When Kathy Gettler was the manager out there, she'd welcome us with open arms every time we'd walk in there but you know, managers change. Philosophies change, so. You know to be honest with you, it's not really worth it for staff to be chasing around all over town just to save. Stolar: 100 bucks. Ruegemer: Yeah. Stolar: Understand. It's true. Okay, any other questions? So you'll follow up and invite them to the January meeting, because I thought they got a kick out of it last year when we talked to them, and they do a great job. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. Murphy: We need to set a meeting date. We have not met yet so. Stolar: I don't know if this is, obviously you volunteered and actually I don't want to put more. Would it be helpful in the December meeting to have a discussion to help you formulate some ideas around what we want to do here? Because we maybe we could put that as an old business item if we have a light agenda to just have the commission as a whole kind of serve as a adjunct to this committee to help guide and maybe even use some of that time to help charter some things. It's totally up to you guys if you just, working with Todd. Spizale: And again, that'd give us some stuff to work on. We could take some of the small things apart. Stolar: I think it's important to the whole commission. We've talked about it many times. And then if you want to give us an update on some of the stuff you've found and already explored on, that would be great. Murphy: Okay. And our meeting's the 14th, right? Stolar: The 14th, correct. Hoffman: Tuesday the 14th. Murphy: I guess we'd have to talk amongst ourselves to see if we could meet as a committee before that date, depending on. 19 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Hoffman: Sure. Murphy: Okay. Stolar: And that's the only committee. I guess we aren't, Dave Huffman's not starting has it? Kelly: No. ADMINISTRA TIVE PACKET. Stolar: Any questions from the Administrative packet? Scharfenberg: Todd, can you just comment on the field scheduling process and the meetings? What's the process behind that and what was discussed and. Hoffman: Sure... comments about the process and how the fields are scheduled and so there's been some rubs back and forth, depending on what organization you are and what fields you're using and who you're reserving it through so Greg Shank, the Director of Communications for District 112 called a meeting and we attended. Talked about a variety of things. Greg initially would like, talked, discussed the idea of kind of starting a whole new process and there were some comments in there where he talked about a joint partnering scheduling process that, where everyone would get together. Anyone could take the reservation and that would transcend all the governmental boundaries and the conclusion from the cities was, that was not going to work. We'll continue to improve upon our present system which, you call folks for the facilities which they had ownership and/or scheduling control over, and then communities talk amongst themselves to make sure that people aren't booking a lot of time in one community and a lot of time, more time than it really needs so we continue to have this equity process. And so that was the conclusion of the meeting is that we'll continue to improve on what was currently taking place today and work out the issues as they come forward. Stolar: Do you feel that this was satisfactory progress? I mean maybe not as fast but is this the direction that you feel? Hoffman: Yeah. Stolar: Okay. Ruegemer: I think community ed came away with you know, from the meeting, I think hopefully feeling good that we're making baby steps on that. You know I took it upon ourself to call a meeting last fall with the City of Victoria and City of Chaska and the City of Chanhassen to sit down and talk about the fall process. Just to make sure that everybody was being taken care of and that sort of thing. We did that really independently of the school district but now I think the school district would like to be 20 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 included on that, in those conversations and I'm open for that and if we can improve communication between all the cities, this is going to be, there's going to be a better end result for our users and customers so. Hoffman: I talked about the perceived inequities in the system that are users perceived. Some of those are built in into the process. You're not going to get rid of those. They're there and so, if you have a system which has inequities or is flawed, and that mirrors itself and the user, if there's no way you can change those inequities, you're not going to change what the end user feels, and so that's a situation that we're in. If the City of Chaska maintains control over many school district facilities which are jointly governed by Chaska residents, Chan residents, but Chaska has the availability to first priority of those facilities, Chan residents feel that's an inequity. Nothing you can do about it. The school board has cast those policies and allowed the City of Chaska to make those reservations and so that's one of the things that I hear the most in my office is I'll have Chanhassen residents sit down. Represent Chan people and they say you know what, we can't get on school district 112 fields because we don't get first priority. Chaska does. Sorry, nothing we can do about it. Stolar: Nothing we can do about it under the current process other than change those priorities. Hoffman: I don't believe the school district's going to do that. We can certainly talk to them about it. The school board's agreed upon those policies and those arrangements and it'd be very difficult to change them. Ruegemer: Joint power agreements between the City ofChaska and the school district. Stolar: So it goes deeper to the placed, when placed in those, in Chaska's location. They agreed to those joint power type agreements. But the board can also provide guidelines to try and improve equity. In the funding. Does Chaska have a financial commitment that's greater than Chan's in doing it or is it just straight out of the school board, or school's fund? Like in Eden Prairie some of the joint activities, although I know it's one city, one school district. The park district paid in and certainly had a commitment in that. Were there any of these facilities built with Chaska money? Any of those things. Hoffman: Oh sure, yeah. In fact the, in this situation it's the exact opposite. For the most part, there are some mixed money but then the district makes a payment back to the city for the use of the community center. And so there's, each one of them's different. We have joint power agreements with the school district as well, which are very similar to what takes place in Chaska, but the fact is we have 2 schools in the district. They have 9 and so when you compare 2 to 9, that's another inequity that plays out into the long run when you're having these fields reserved so we've got a much smaller piece of the pie that's spread out. If it was 4 and 4 or 5 and 5, it'd be very similar in the way that things were handled. Stolar: Good populations that feed into that district are different, correct? 21 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Hoffman: Populations of? Stolar: Chan and Chaska. Hoffman: Sure, oh yeah. There's a lot more people in Chaska than Chanhassen. Half of our residents attend that school district. All of Chaska does. Stolar: Right. So you, the term inequities, as you drive underneath and look at some of the numbers. Hoffman: They start to even out a little bit. Stolar: They start to even out a little bit, right. Because of the placement of the people, population... district and such. Well I guess, speaking just for myself on this issue, because this came up in the paper a while ago, if this is something that it's worth at least our doing one of two things, I'll leave it to you to be the judge having been, you're more involved in it. One, if you think there's something worth our pursuing be it a resolution, recommendation or discussion, I think we'd be willing to talk about it. I'm looking at my colleagues here. The second thing is, is it at all valuable to have some sort of participation by the various park and rec commissions to help, as you start talking about improving the processes. To participate in that. Is that something that, maybe there's a joint committee that looks at this? From commission members too, to help you in that. Something to think about. Where you get in Chaska. Is it just Chaska and Chan really or are there other? Hoffman: Victoria. They're in the school district. And Carver. Ruegemer: Carver's involved. Stolar: Is it worth having a joint committee to just at least look at this from everybody's perspective? Something to think about. I don't know that I want to call another committee unnecessarily but it is something we hear about. Hoffman: Oh yeah. . . Stolar: Until they build something more here right. Hoffman: We'll still hear about it. And there will be another school built here so that will help. A lot it will help. Stolar: Okay, seeing no other comments. Is there anything else? Kelly: Thanks for the e-mail about Carver that you sent out a week or so ago. That was interesting. 22 Park and Rec Commission - November 23,2004 Hoffman: You're welcome. Yeah, they, we actually had that discussion 10 years ago with the City ofChaska and it was really born out of the fact that many communities do share an equation in where we own our golf course. You own a pool. Let's just make sure that our residents can use both of them equally. And as Chanhassen struggled to attain a community center type of facility with fitness and pool and those type of things, we said how about we just send our residents down there. Pay the difference between resident and non-resident and Chaska was actually, they agreed to investigate it if we chose. And over time, administration and staff and councils and commissions just haven't gone that route for our residents and, but Carver said they'll give it a try. And it's a one year arrangement to see if it works both for the City of Chaska and for the City of Carver. Of course with Lifetime coming on line. . . Murphy: 2 years ago maybe. Stolar: Any other? If not, do we have a motion for adjournment? Kelly moved, Spizale seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 23