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PC Minutes 11-16-04 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 Sacchet: Alright. Somebody make the motion please. Keefe: I'll make a motion. The Planning Commission approves the variance for the construction of a canopy with footings without any setback and within the right-of-way based on the findings of fact in the staff report with the following conditions, 1 and 2 I believe. Sacchet: Yep. We have a motion. Is there a second? Papke: Second. Keefe moved, Papke seconded that the Planning Commission approve the variance for the construction of a canopy with footings without any setback and within the right-of-way based on the findings of fact in the staff report, and with the following conditions: 1. Submit a lot survey signed by a registered land surveyor. The survey must show the following: a. Right-of-way, property and easement lines in relation to the existing structures. b. Existing sidewalk location. 2. An encroachment agreement will be required if any of the existing structures are determined to be in the right-of-way. All voted in favor, except Lillehaug and Slagle who opposed, and the motion failed with a vote of 4 to 2. Sacchet: So we have 1,2,3,4 to 2. That means it goes to City Council, right? Aanenson: That's correct. Sacchet: Yep. Thank you very much. Good luck with it. PUBLIC HEARING: VILLAGE ON THE PONDS BUILDING C-l. FOOD COOP. REQUEST FOR SITE PLAN APPROVAL FOR A 18.200 SQUARE FOOT COMMERCIAL BUILDING WITH VARIANCE TO THE COMMERCIAL DESIGN STANDARDS ON 1.35 ACRES ZONED PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT LOCATED AT THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF LAKE DRIVE AND GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD. VOP I. LLC. PLANNING CASE NO. 04-40. Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item. Sacchet: Thanks Bob. Who wants to have any questions? Are we still awake enough? Papke: I'll start. Just a question on fenestration requirement here. Boy, I love to be able to use that word. On page 6 of the staff report here, just below the table, it states as can be seen by the table, the percentage of openings and faux windows. By faux you mean fake windows, yes? Generous: Yes. 54 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 Papke: Okay, so just to make sure I understand here. So we really have a, we're really 9 percent off our requirement for windows. And okay. To that end, are there other buildings in the city that have similar fake windows that were used to meet this design standard? Aanenson: Actually on Villages on the Pond there's a couple of them. AmericInn. Also I think Houlihan's has some so we've used it in other applications on that specific. Generous: Kwik Trip. Papke: Okay, so there's. Aanenson: Office Max. Papke: So there's several others in the area that have used this similar technique, so we're not breaking any new ground here. The only other thing that was just a minor cause for concern when I was looking at the plans was the amount of parking. You know it certainly seems to meet all the city code for parking and so on but Culver's gets busy. Foss Swim School. They occupy every single square inch of parking on the streets when they have swimming lessons going there so I don't think we can expect to see much spill over onto the street there capacity. Are there any concerns in terms of the sizing? The expected number of people we would anticipate seeing at the coop versus the number of parking spaces. You know· also taking into account the number of employees. Generous: The quick answer would be no. We think the spillover will actually go into the bank parking lot, and that will be during their non-peak hours. It's the, you know the evening time that people will be coming here. Also you have, well with the coffee shop, their peak hour is morning. These are midday and then evening and then weekends actually so the rest of the development will pick it up but yeah, that's where we foresee the overflow going to the southwest. Sacchet: Any other questions? Lillehaug: I have some adding on that. Boy, I remember the development of the bank there and it seems like the overflow as going to go to this development when we looked at that, and it was a lot more than, like on page 7 you indicate, boy where was it? 6 additional spaces. Boy, it was assuming a lot more than 6 spaces. Aanenson: The bank has underground parking too. Lillehaug: Say again? Aanenson: The bank has underground parking too. Lillehaug: Well I mean it did when we looked at it too and it was including way over 6 parking stalls on this site that we're looking at now as part of it's. Sacchet: Did it? I don't remember. 55 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 Aanenson: I don't remember that. Lillehaug: Well I just remember a line drawn and it included about 18 stalls plus. Again, I guess reiterating the concerns with parking. Sacchet: Definitely a concern. Lillehaug: Boy, I hope we don't miss it and I'm not seeing data in front of me that's saying we're not going to miss it on parking, so that's not a question I guess but I have concerns with that. Does the architecture of this match kind of the general theme that we're wanting to do? Generous: Within Villages, yes. Lillehaug: Okay. That was just a question. I have absolutely no clue, just wanted to make sure. What type of vehicles do they plan on having in the loading dock? I can ask the applicant that. Sacchet: There's actually a drawing that is kind of scary where it shows the really big trucks sticking out. Lillehaug: I'll ask the applicant that. On page 8, can you explain your table there. Really explain one thing and that would be the balance after conversion for deficits, and this is relating to the balance of the shifting of all the different types of commercial. Generous: Right. There's excess capacity to the site that's not being used, that's what a positive balance means. Sacchet: So that can go anywhere? Generous: Yeah. Well it's not going to be used so. Sacchet: They're under their threshold. Lillehaug: So it's a positive. Generous: Right. And also this includes buildings that aren't built so we have, we estimate that Building G will have so many square feet and it may not. Lillehaug: Okay. On their previous drawing it said front lit letters with a neon logo. Ijust saw a neon sign go in here and boy, is that pretty. The blue one. Sacchet: The Mattress. Lillehaug: It's pretty obtrusive there. I mean when they say neon, do we have anything in our code to say not that extensive of a neon? Holy buckets. 56 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 Generous: It's type of glare and part of the problem, and Vernelle pointed this out to me as the nomenclature, that it's really, the lighting will be behind. In the sign itself and the front will be, allow light to come shine through it. Lillehaug: So maybe I'll ask her and take her word for it that it won't be like that. Aanenson: Another just side bar to that is... we didn't ask photometrics. We've learned to ask for photometrics and that was a matter of intensity. They have reduced the intensity of that particular sign. Sacchet: They have? Aanenson: Yes. Sacchet: Oh good. So that's something that we need to ask. As Bob said, there's different applications of neon, whether it's covered or not, but that was a very intense bright light. Lillehaug: On page 3. You know we were looking at the background. Why are we, you're drawing a little attention to, you have on page 3 at the very top of the first paragraph, number 3. Are we drawing attention to the maximum building height for a reason? Are we. Generous: Well that was just to say that this area, we specifically said that no more than 2 stories. Lillehaug: So we're fine there? Generous: We're fine. It's under the limits, yes. Lillehaug: Okay. I'm trying to hurry along here. 9 foot parking stalls right? That's still a requirement in Chanhassen? Generous: Yes. Lillehaug: Okay. And then I wanted to get your, the staff's opinion on a, I have big problems with this one. And if you look at the site plan it's the little drop off area. You can just look in the drawing and it kind of defines it right there for me. You've got cars facing each other in the drop off area. That really defines it. I mean there's no good path and circulation for cars at all in there. You guys want to take ajab at that one? Sacchet: Matt? Saam: Well yeah, I guess I don't think that drawing's really realistic. You know to have, we aren't going to have people like that. I guess I would maybe defer to the applicant to see if that's going to be, yeah to see if that's going to be a pick-up you know area where they do that sometimes at the grocery stores. You can drive up and get them, or if it's just a dropping off type of thing where you may be dropping off an older relative or something like that. Aanenson: And I believe that can just be cued for striping too. In a directional. 57 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 Saam: Correct. Slagle: But if I may, Steve may I? Lillehaug: Yes please. Slagle: You march 15 feet to your northwest, you are in essence in the middle of a very busy intersection for a good part of the day. And all I'm suggesting when I see this drop off area, which I think is a nice amenity for grocery stores, I mean you probably couldn't pick a worst spot from a traffic volume standpoint. Because I can see whether you go, you know whether you're coming from the south and then exiting onto that intersection or you're having people go the other way, the Culver's, the Starbuck's, the evening traffic trying to get home, cutting through, I mean this whole area, and Vernelle, you've heard it before but the area is ripe with traffic. Sacchet: Well wait a second. Isn't this the internal part towards Culver's? This is not over towards the main drag. Slagle: It's towards Culver's. Sacchet: Yeah. Slagle: Yeah. Sacchet: Okay. Aanenson: If you look at the, you've got the blank. The original one said pick-up. I believe that's the intent. I think Mika, in response to the language put drop off on some of those but it should be pick-up. Pick-up groceries. I think the idea was there when we met with them, that we could cue that to circulate. Sacchet: It'd be one way basically. Aanenson: Yes. Sacchet: On the way out. Slagle: So, just so I'm clear, you're suggesting that if someone came down Great Plains, took a right. Cut right in front of Starbuck's, and wanted to take a left into there, they couldn't. Aanenson: No, I'm saying if you go to the drop off and cue them to go one direction so if you came in this way and it's cued to go that, you couldn't get in to pick-up your groceries. You'd have to... Slagle: And again maybe it's me and I'll not say anything more but I think this whole area between Culver's and Great Plains is a very, very busy area for traffic. And I'm just saying if you are expecting your pick-up traffic to either exit or enter in that area, you're asking for 58 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 trouble. I'm not sure I have an alternative for you, given your building site. I'm just saying for the commissioners, be prepared. I mean that to me, I see cars waiting. And it's not like we don't already have enough traffic there. Sacchet: Traffic calming. Slagle: Yeah, here we go. Traffic calming. Lillehaug: And I've got one more question. Looking at one of the drawings, boy where was it? It wasn't actually on this site but it was on the bank site and it showed 4 drive thru's. Sacchet: Oh yeah, there was. Lillehaug: Did something get changed there? Sacchet: All of a sudden it shows, looks different doesn't it? Lillehaug: Yeah, and then it's over. Generous: It's Mika. Lillehaug: It wasn't us I know that. Aanenson: It's an old drawing. Sacchet: It's an old drawing. Generous: Yeah, because it's also showing the access into the Building C underneath a bridge like construction and that's no longer the case. Sacchet: So the next door thing is not the current state of affairs. Generous: It's more parking all the way up and then a driveway out. And then there's a ramp going down into the building. Lillehaug: So this is totally inaccurate what we're seeing. Generous: The off site to the westerly end of that parking area is wrong, yes. Sacchet: On the next part, not on this part. Correct? Lillehaug: Did things change on this bank site dramatically from what we had. Generous: Not on the bank site. But Mike never did that one. He was just doing the concept plan to show the overall project. Aanenson: It's not an as-built. 59 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 Lillehaug: Okay. That was my question. Because I had concerns with that. So that's all my questions. Sacchet: Alright. Questions? Slagle: I just have one left for Matt. Traffic study. Is it still your opinion Matt that the intersection of Great Plains and. Sacchet: Lake Drive West. East. West. One of the two. Slagle: Is not in need of a 4 way stop. Sacchet: Good question. Saam: No it is. Yeah, and I'll just tail off of that. The city retained the services of one of our consultants, Kimley-Horn and Associates to update the few traffic studies that we've done in this area. I guess to answer your question, the results of the traffic study basically said, and then I'll let Brandon Borden from Kimley-Horn speak. Or you can ask him questions. Results of the traffic study said, this development wouldn't require a four way stop. But it did concur that with the ultimate development of the entire site, one would be needed and again it said to monitor, basically we'd have to do another traffic study again when the next site came in. Slagle: So are you, if I can ask specifically, a study shows that we don't necessarily need it now but it is staff's position that we should put it in? Saam: We certainly can. Slagle: Okay, I'll take that. Sacchet: Is there a reason why you wouldn't? Slagle: Yeah. Saam: Maybe I'll let Brandon tail off. I guess the hard numbers aren't requiring that. Brandon Borden: I mean the review that was done, the Minnesota MUTCD and looked primarily at volumes and level of service. And the requirements for 8 hours of minimum volume requirements on the side street and the main street. Now this is different from a signal warrant where there's some more flexibility. Where it's not a shall statement. It's a should statement. And so depending on different demands and pressures from people, it isn't something that cannot be installed. It's close after the food coop is installed. It's about 6 hours of that requirement is met. Looking at analysis on how things, the peak hours would vary a little bit, it's kind of right on the border line so if there's not a lot of objection one way or the other but technically it's not quite there. Sacchet: Okay . Yeah actually that was one of my main questions too because this has come up before and we discussed this point before and what at this point I read from your study is that it will, yes it will be required. I mean that's not a question. It's a question of when. Then on that 60 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 basis, that's why I ask, why would we not do it now? Because we know it's going to be required and I mean having lived in that neighborhood some 5-6 years ago when it was much, much less developed, even then. I mean when St. Hubert's let out, you could not make a left turn. You're lucky of making a right turn if you come off Lake Drive onto Great Plains and so I would think that you explained that pretty well. Let me see if I have any other questions. One thing that kind of scared me is you used painted stucco. I mean isn't stucco usually the color mixed into it and, well that's an application. Applicant question. Not really a staff question. We're still at staff. Current grading plan doesn't work. Can you touch on that Matt please? Saam: Yeah, sure. It's not really maybe as big of an issue as it sounds. Just the submitted one, the grades didn't drain. We didn't have overflow points. We had received a revised grading plan but we didn't get it in time to get it to all your folks and for me to revise my report so it's not an issue anymore but I just wanted to point it out. Sacchet: Okay. And then one last question. It's also for you Matt I would think. I'm not quite sure how the point it is. If you look at the drawings in the packet, it's the third drawing where you see actually a truck by the loading dock. And that truck sticks out so far that it seems like it cannot really go around through there anymore. So I wonder does that, did you find the drawing I'm talking about? Saam: Yes. Sacchet: It's the one that says retail plan. Slagle: It has VP on it. On the truck. Saam: Yeah, it says coop retail plan. Sacchet: It says yeah, the service area where, it's the only one where there's actually a truck in the service area and I think the way it looks like it's big enough to pretty much block. Saam: Three of the stalls and the vehicular movement around that. Sacchet: It'd be pretty tricky to get past. I mean you can with one car but certainly not going to be a two way situation. Is that acceptable? Saam: I guess it's not the best situation. I mean the tight is pretty site. Again it goes off of what Commissioner Slagle's point was on the pick up area. You know where do you move that? Where do you move the truck? The loading dock to on this site. I would think that is the best location. It's furthest to the, closest to that sidewalk. It's farthest out of the main drive aisle. And I'm not sure again how often the trucks will be loading... Sacchet: Yeah, we can ask that of the applicant. Saam: Early morning, late evening, you know... Sacchet: Yeah, if it's the middle of the night it's not an issue but alright, we'll ask the applicant about that. That's all my questions. Kurt, one more? 61 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 Papke: Yeah, just one other clarification question. Page 8 of staff report... table here. Misunderstanding the project though. Presbyterian Homes, is it really only 9,000 square feet? Generous: Of commercial. Papke: Of commercial space. Generous: Retail or office. Aanenson: On that first floor. Generous: First floor. Papke: Okay, I got it. Generous: Then the rest of it is residence. Papke: Okay. Sacchet: Alright, with that I'd like to invite the applicant to tell us your part. State your name and who you are. Vemelle Clayton: I'm Vemelle Clayton. Live at 422 Santa Fe Circle here in Chanhassen. Great to be back. It's been a while and great to be back with what we think is a really nifty addition to Chanhassen. We're so pleased with the way the building turned out. We, as many of you know, and some of you probably don't know, we have from time to time a chance to work with Mika Milo who is, I mean he gets it. He gets it for Chanhassen. He gets it for what we need as a village and just a delight to work with, and he's sorry that he can't be here tonight. Hope that you had a chance to read through his, what I thought was thoughtful comments on the project, and for those of us that know him just imagine reading it with an accent and therein is my segway to a couple of problems that we've had with your interpretation of some of the plans. He was unable, at the time he wrote the description of the sign to come up with the right words to mean that it was lit at the front. I don't know what he was trying to say. We said whoops, we don't want lights shining on it. No, that's not what he meant so we do have a specific and creative sign requirement that are listed as part of the PUD requirements agreement, and we always encourage the folks to try to deviate from the ordinary for the signs out there so we can have a variety of signs. And I think that Lakewinds will try to do what they can to meet that requirement. We've talked with them about having the banner arm and we've talked to them about having the menu board sign on the wall for the area where they'll have their little deli and hopefully they won't run out of money before they get all those signs put up because I think it will make it pretty nice out there. I could get to, I will get to some of your specific questions. I have one, we don't have any basic issues with the city staff conditions of approval. We'd like the option to consider using wood on that one, what Mika defined as a sort of separate building. He tried, his reason for doing that was to kind of connect it with the building to the north which is 3 separate buildings. One siding, one stucco, one brick, and this building was called the silo building. It has the Starbucks in the end, and to create some interest on that side of the street as you're driving along that's the most boring side of the building. It's the building, it's the end of 62 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 the building where inside they have their storage and refrigeration and so forth. So as he was talking along the north side they're going to be having their home store. They have an in-store home store of natural products, and environmentally friendly product, if any of you have been to Lakewinds. And by the way, it's fun for me to say Lakewinds tonight because this is the first night we've been able to say it. There's sort of an uncodified rule in real estate law that you never get any of the documents done until you absolutely have to, and so we got the lease done at 4:30 this afternoon and therefore we can talk about the identity of the grocer now. Anyhow, so another thing that they'll have in there is a deli and so these are kind of stores within a store. And this location, unlike their other locations, they'll actually have a bakery so that's positioned along the north wall and we're trying to work it out so there might actually be a window when people walk by and they can actually see people in there making bread. Trying to work that out. So then we move around to the east side where, that's where they'll be doing their meat processing and Mika got hooked on the idea that this is their, now the name is escaping me. The smoke house. That blue building then is the smoke house, and so that's how this all kind of, you know you've got to have some fun when you're designing. So we kind of like the option to not have it be so bland going across there. To have it a little more lively. We could talk about the color, if the color's a little too abrupt. I think it's more abrupt on the picture than it is in the actual color board. Sacchet: Do you have a sample out there, down there. Maybe you should pass that around. Vemelle Clayton: Is it the top one there? Generous: The top one, yeah. Vemelle Clayton: So the color matches. We can't deny that it's different and we all agree that it's subjective and so we're not going to lose any sleep one way or the other but we just think it'd be better if it were colored. Then let me see, you talked a little bit about parking. I just, I empathize, no wait, sympathize for those of you that weren't around but I can certainly understand hardly anybody's been around since 1996 when we first began this. We just spent series after series of meetings in describing how we're going to do this. What it meant and what all the options were and one of the things that we talked about then was parking and that every, that the understanding was that the benefit of doing it this way, of this mixed use, both vertically and horizontally is, and incorporating St. Hubert's was that, the parking requirement for any particular site would not have to be met on that site because of the cross parking and the variety of uses and the way that people can get from one place to another. One of those things, one of the design issues for the main plan that helped to enhance that likelihood is the, at the, what we call the core. The intersection of Lake and Main where there will be the four buildings. Those buildings will have hallways going diagonally out from each intersection. Each corner of the intersection so you can park here and walk around the corner and shop at another place. All of those things were kind of put it so it's a little hard, it's hard even for us to remember all the things that we talked about at the time but those are, that's a couple of them. You asked about the truck situation. I think you asked what was going to be at the loading dock. It will be a variety of things. Probably the least frequent use would be the semi's. But it will be everything from farmers bringing their produce in, in very small trucks, to the occasional semi truck. And just by the way supermarkets work, those are done anywhere from like 5:00-6:00 in the morning and then they're gone. Just the way they operate is that those larger deliveries come very early 63 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 in the morning, and we're counting on that. So there was another question I said, I thought to myself I'll answer when I get up here. Sacchet: The crossing. The signaling of the crossing. Do you want to address that at all Vernelle? Vernelle Clayton: The stop signs at the crossing. Is that what you mean? The 4 way stop. Sacchet: Yeah. Vernelle Clayton: I think it'd be a good idea. And if we did for it, the stop signs would we not have the right turn lane marked? Saam: Yeah, that was our recommendation to stripe the right turn lane and then the left through lane just to cue them up. Vernelle Clayton: There are some folks involved in the project that think that probably it wouldn't be a good idea because it would kind of back things up as a stop sign would, and I have a feeling if any of you at all go to St. Hubert's you'd just as soon not have it there. You like to get out in a hurry. But I think that it would go, I think that it would be a good idea and I encourage it. We've had questions about this corner for a long time. I'd hate to stand here and say no and then have some little kid get run over by somebody that's going too fast, so I don't want that responsibility. I kind of question whether there's really room to have that right lane drive. I drove through there a couple times today trying to figure out how we could have a left turn, a straight through and a right. It's tight. Saam: It's shared. Vernelle Clayton: Oh, the light is shared right and. Generous: Right turn only... Sacchet: The right one is separate. Vernelle Clayton: Through and left. So then anybody going down. Okay, so that's not so good either then because then if you're turning left. Saam: Can we just clarify that quickly? Sacchet: Please. Saam: Maybe Brandon, you can speak to it. Brandon Borden: ~ell my th.oughts on that were, it is a relatively, it's not an extremely long storage l~ngth but It operates m the a.m. essentially as a right turn lane as it is based on obs~rvatlOns when. the traffic was counted. And right turn volume's a lot, very high. 250 vehicles currently m the a.m., so it was based somewhat on those thoughts. The all way stop, 64 . ~. Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 there would be a change made to it through a left lane, and a through right lane. Still a shorter area but would allow two cars to reach the stop bar. Sacchet: Instead of one you have two. Brandon Borden: Instead of one. And operationally it will work a little bit better with the stop sign travel speeds will be much slower as people approach the stop sign so. Vernelle Clayton: Well, a large part of the problem out there is that people are cutting through. They come, they turn down at the south end of Main Street or they turn at the west end of Lake Drive so they don't have to hit the light at Highway 5 and maybe the next one. So everything as we can do to make it inconvenient to get through there is what we need. Sacchet: We don't want it a through way, absolutely. Vernelle Clayton: No. Right, I mean they're supposed to go on 101 and 5 and the more we get built up, the less convenient it will be for them. They have to stop 2 or 3 times before they get through the project, they'll go somewhere else so that's why I think that the stop sign would be, a 4 way would be a good idea. As long as we don't have to pay for it. Sacchet: Well then. Vernelle Clayton: What else? Lillehaug: Drop off. Vernelle Clayton: The drop off. Lillehaug: Pick up. Vernelle Clayton: Pick up. I noticed this, his English is a second language. I noticed that they drew one of the cars backwards too. I thought I'd just see if anybody else picked up on that so we didn't make him redo it. Sacchet: Steve did. Leave it to Steve. Vernelle Clayton: That is something that is very important to the manager of the grocery store. It was a big item from the day one and we kind of tried to discourage it because of kind of the look and all that. We wanted the building close up to the street and everything but we compromised and it's, she didn't need it very large. She doesn't, this is not as bi~ ~ store as, it's halfthe size of the County Market and less than one half, let's see I think By~rly s IS w~at, 50 some thousand square feet and County Market's 35. So and this is 17 footpnnt for the, It ~ets to be 18 with the mezzanine but the footprint's 17 so they got 17,000 square feet of folks domg shopping. So they won't have the traffic that the Byerly's pick up has. Sacchet: Can you describe how that drop off/pick up is actually being used? I mean are they, is it like a Byerly's when you can get your bags out? 65 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 Vernelle Clayton: Yes. Sacchet: Is that, that's the idea? Pick up. Vernelle Clayton: Yes. Sacchet: You pick up your bags. Vernelle Clayton: You're right. They have little guys bring it out the door. They aren't going to have the conveyor belt. So you guys picking up. Keefe: How does this building compare to the one on 101 in Minnetonka Boulevard? Is it bigger? Smaller? Vernelle Clayton: It's bigger. That one is quite small and very old. Keefe: Was it like 10,000 square feet there? Vernelle Clayton: You know I've never asked them what it is but it can't be, it just can't be any more than that. It's very crowded and very inefficient and. It started and then they just kind of added on and added on and added on. Keefe: Yeah, right. I'm just thinking, just from a parking standpoint. I know how busy that store gets because I used to go there quite often when I lived up that way and I'm just trying to get, just a feel for you know what the size of this and what this might generate. I think this will be busier than that store. I just think it, yeah right. Yeah, I mean that's a pretty busy store and this one's going to be busier and I'm just thinking the parking here, it can't be that much more than what's there. Than what we're looking at. Vernelle Clayton: Well it's, what do we count this was required. 85 was the requirements? Keefe: Yeah I mean there it's over 100 there... Vernelle Clayton: I don't think they have anywhere near 85 cars. Right, right. Keefe: So I mean from your perspective 85 is? Vernelle Clayton: I'd be surprised, I shop there occasionally, man. I don't think that more than 40 or 50 cars are there when it's full. We'll all go there and count tomorrow and see if I'm right but that's kind of, that's what it feels like to me. Keefe: And they don't have a drop off or pick up. Vernelle Clayton: No. Keefe: Yeah, right. 66 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 Slagle: I have a question. Vernelle, on this pick up area. If the drawings are anything to scale, and we're seeing 3 cars, assume for a second it's just a little bit off. I mean if it's as busy again to Dan's point, I've been to the Minnetonka store often. It gets busy and I'm thinking that if there are 5-6 people wanting to do the drive up, which I would think a lot of people would enjoy that amenity, could you see cars literally park in front of the entrance? Waiting, I mean it's like almost Byerly's. It's just not as long of a. Vernelle Clayton: Well they do park in front of Byerly's sometimes. Their entrance, right. I suppose it could happen. Slagle: I mean is that a concern? Vernelle Clayton: You know you're talking to the wrong person about traffic and cars and congestion because my whole philosophy for shopping centers is the more difficult it is to get around the better because then it's safer. Sacchet: Yeah you. We remember you for that. Vernelle Clayton: You've heard me say that many times. If you do run into somebody, you do it very slowly. You know many it's stupid but traffic, the congestion, that's what keeps everybody safe. You're watching. Does it bother me they park right in front? I suppose they should not be parking right in front so they may have to have no parking. Slagle: I guess maybe what I'm trying. Vernelle Clayton: If you want to have people walking through. Slagle: Maybe what I'm trying to ask is, do we believe that the size of the drive up or pick up is adequate? Vernelle Clayton: We're taking our cue from the owner of the store, or the manager of the store. It's a coop so it's owned by a lot of folks but the manager thinks that that's what she wanted. Sacchet: At Byerly's, if I can pipe in here. I mean there is a little more stacking space but I don't remember ever having seen more than maybe 3 cars in there. Papke: Except at Christmas. Sacchet: At Christmas it goes up. Vernelle Clayton: Well yeah you have those, but you're right. Whether it's 2 or 3 cars or normally. Sacchet: Normally, ·yeah. Okay. Steve, go ahead. Lillehaug: If I can add to that. That's assuming the first car pulls all the way forward. Then you can get 3 in there. If there's 5, well then they're going to start stacking in front ofthe handicap 67 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 spaces so that's an issue in itself. Yeah, there may be only, they may only be there 15 seconds but they're still going to be there in front of those handicap stalls if it does stack up so would you be willing to entertain relocating those 2 handicap stalls? It doesn't sound like parking's an issue if we lose 2 parking stalls, right? Sacchet: They're required handicap. Lillehaug: But you can shift them to the other side. You can get rid of them there and move them to the other side and they're still handicap accessible. Aanenson: How about if we evaluate it over time. If that becomes an issue, that we can certainly relocate those. Vernelle Clayton: Re-paint the stripe because that's. Aanenson: I'm not sure that, how much. Lillehaug: How are you going to get them to do that after time? That's a little. Vernelle Clayton: They don't own the building. ...they're tenants so. Aanenson: We can make it a condition that we monitor that for 6 months or a year after it's open and evaluate that and if it's a problem then we have them move it. Vernelle Clayton: We've had similar. Lillehaug: Well I have concerns with it I guess. I'mjust 1 of 6 or 7 here but. Vernelle Clayton: Let me just say we've had similar situations, not exactly the same but where we've agreed to monitor things at Market Square for example. It hasn't been a problem. We're all still around and we talk about it, if we agree or disagree so. Lillehaug: I have some other questions. Slagle: Just one last question. Vernelle, can you show us where the sidewalks are surrounding the building. On the map. Vernelle Clayton: It's in the front back here. Running down here and then we need to connect with this. This sidewalk is existing. And then it runs down through here. Generous: And then it goes internally. This one is... Slagle: So basically surrounding the parcel, okay. Sacchet: Steve? Lillehaug: More questions. 68 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 Sacchet: Go ahead. Lillehaug: I can't let our Kimley-Horn representatives get out of here without them talking about it. I'm not too sure of what everyone's opinion is on the stop sign. I'm pretty adamant on only installing stop signs that are warranted for specific reasons, and they're safety reasons. I just kind of want to add to maybe get more information to actually warrant this. Is through the city measurements that the data that was collected out there, were the speeds measured on the cars and were they above 40 miles an hour? Saam: No, we didn't measure. We didn't do speed data. Lillehaug: Were there other specific warrants. You know the different warrants in the MMUTCD rather than level of service that didn't meet any specific warrants as far as in the year 2007, which would I think indicate build-out of this building. Brandon Borden: For this all way stop analysis? Lillehaug: For the all way, yes. Brandon Borden: It meets, it currently it meets 4 hours of 8 required hours. Sacchet: I thought you said 6. Brandon Borden: No. Looking at the food coop build-out option, it's in the range of 6 depending on how you look at peak hours it could be a little bit more but 6. Lillehaug: Okay. We're not at comments yet are we? Sacchet: No. Actually we're. Lillehaug: I'm done with questions. Sacchet: Are we done with the applicant? I think we had all our questions from you Vernelle. Thank you very much. Vernelle Clayton: Okay, thank you very much. Sacchet: Appreciate it. So with this we come to the public hearing. I open the public hearing. Anybody want to address this item, do it now. Seeing nobody, I close the public hearing and now we're at comments Steve. Lillehaug: That means I start. Sacchet: Well you asked for it. Lillehaug: Well, stop sign. It doesn't quite meet the warrants in 2007, but I think we need to not change it 3 years later when it would meet warrants. I think we need to, we don't want to re- stripe it one way and then change it 3 years later. So maybe I support an all way stop sign there. 69 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 That's a, I don't know how the rest of you feel. I think Rich probably supports it for sure. You know what? 9 foot parking stalls, I want to get that added into a condition. I really don't support how that pick-up is laid out. I would like to see a little less, a little better layout of that and what it would take for me is probably getting rid of those two handicap stalls on that side of the building. And make it just walk and part of that pick-up area. So that would be, you know other than that I think staff has really covered everything that I have a problem with. The loading dock, kind of concerned with blocking a couple vehicles in there, but not much we can do other than get rid of those parking stalls. That's it. Tjornhom: I think it's a great project. I know staff was concerned about the blue or the wood that's going to be stained blue but if the blue is accurate on the board, I guess I don't have a problem with it. I think it blended well with the rest of the colors in the building so I don't think that's a major issue at all and I think Steve covered everything else and so I'm in favor of it. Sacchet: Thanks Bethany. Any comments here to the north? Papke: Yeah, just real briefly. Great project and I do support Steve. I think one of the things we haven't chatted about in addition to the, in theory this is a pick up area but I think a, it's not a typical for a grocery store to have people drop somebody off to go in and do the groceries while the driver goes and parks the car. And so I think lengthening the drop off area or eliminating those two handicap spots there, moving them to somewhere else will give you, will give us a better opportunity to have a true drop off area here so that we have a better flow in that area so that's it. Sacchet: Any further north here? No, okay. I don't have much to add. I mean I'm ecstatic. I love Lakewinds and I'm just really thrilled it's coming to town. I don't think the blue is any issue at all, having seen the real sample so I think we, I would recommend taking that condition 5 out. And do we need the 4 way stop? I really think we do. It's kind of silly to wait a couple of years and then so it if we already pretty clearly can proceed right now. We will definitely fully be able to justify in a couple of years. I think it would be a positive addition to that situation to do it now. I agree that really doing it premature, as he states Steve would not be good but I don't think it's premature to the point that it'd be detrimental. I think it would be very beneficial. Now with this drop off thing, yeah. A little more space could be good but then if we move those two handicap stalls we kill 3 parking stalls at least. I don't know, that's kind of contrary a little bit to the concerns we heard about the scarcity of parking so I'm a little torn there. I probably would be able to settle for monitoring the pick-up area but then it creates another problem. Is it going to be changed after a year or so when we see, so we have to, I think we need to make up our minds how we want to do it at this point and then go for that. Now the safe way to do it is to give it more space from the start. So I don't have very hard opinion on that one. That's my comments so with that I'd like a motion. Lillehaug: I guess I'll make a motion. The Planning Commission recommends approval of Planning Case #04-40 for an 18,188 square foot commercial building with a variance from the commercial design standards to permit less than 50 percent of the first floor façade that is viewed by the public to include transparent windows and/or doors, plans prepared by Milo Architecture Group, Incorporated date October 15,2004, subject to the following conditions, 1 through 28. I think we can 3 and 20 are the same, if I'm reading them correctly. 70 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 Sacchet: 3 and 20. Lillehaug: So I think we can get rid of 20. And what was it, get rid of 5? Aanenson: 5. Lillehaug: Yep. I'd like to add number 29, and that would be revise the plans to reflect 9 foot parking stalls. Saam: Commissioner Lillehaug, that's already in 18. Sacchet: Yes it is. Lillehaug: Scratch that. Then 29 I would like to read, extend the pick up area to include the area of the two handicap stalls directly adjacent to the pick up area and relocate the handicap stalls to the south portion of the building and then in essence losing 3 stalls. And I think that's all I remember here. Aanenson: Stop sign? Sacchet: Stop sign. 4 way stop. Aanenson: And the fire marshal's conditions. Lillehaug: Yeah. Sacchet: Alright, we have a motion. Do we have a second? Papke: Second. Sacchet: We have a motion, we have a second. Friendly amendment. Stop sign. Stop sign. Is it fair to attach that to this application? Commissioner: Yeah. Sacchet: It is, okay. Alright. Friendlyamendment. Install 4 way stop sign on the intersection of Lake Street and Great Plains Boulevard. Is that acceptable? That's the big question. Lillehaug: Hesitantly I accept it. Just don't tell anybody in Edina. Sacchet: Well you said maybe you know. So it's accepted. Aanenson: ... with modifications to striping. Saam: Commissioners, could you then just revise condition 28. It should be to stripe a left through lane and a right through lane. Versus just a right turn lane only. If you want to go with the 4 way stop, we need a right turn lane. 71 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 Sacchet: Alright, friendly amendment as such. Is that accepted? Lillehaug: Yes. Sacchet: Alright. We have a motion. We have a second. We have amendments. Lillehaug moved, Papke seconded that the Planning Case #04-40 for an 18,188 square foot commercial building with a variance from the commercial design standards to permit less than fIfty (50) percent of the first floor façade that is viewed by the public to include transparent windows and/or doors, plans prepared by Milo Architecture Group, Inc., dated October 15, 2004, subject to the following conditions: 1. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the City and provide the necessary security to guarantee erosion control, site restoration and landscaping. 2. Outlot A, Village on the Ponds 8th Addition must be replatted in to a Lot and Block configuration prior to issuance of a building permit. 3. The sidewalk in the northeast corner of the site shall be connected to the sidewalk on Lake Drive. 4. The developer shall install bicycle racks on site. 5. Deleted. 6. All landscape islands and peninsulas in the parking lot requiring trees must have a minimum inside width of ten feet. 7. Two overstory trees are required in the parking lot. 8. A total of seven bicolor oaks are required along Great Plains Boulevard. 9. A revised landscape plan shall be submitted to the city prior to building permit approval. 10. The building must be protected with an automatic fire sprinkler system. 11. The building plans must be prepared and signed by design professionals licensed in the State of Minnesota. 12. An eight foot wide access aisle must be provided for one of the accessible parking locations. 13. The building owner and or their representatives shall meet with the Inspections Division to discuss plan review and permit procedures. 14. The City's standard detail plate for silt fence installation shall be included in the construction plans. 72 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16, 2004 15. Construction site access points shall be minimized to controlled access points with rock entrance and exit pads installed and maintained throughout construction. 16. All exposed soil areas shall have temporary erosion protection or permanent cover year round, according to the following table of slopes and time frames: Time Type of Slope (maximum time an area can remain unvegetated when area is not actively bein2 worked) Steeper than 3: 1 7 Days 10:1 to 3:1 14 Days Flatter than 10: 1 21 Days Daily scraping and sweeping of streets shall be completed anytime construction site soil, mud, silt or rock is tracked or washed onto paved surface or street that would allow tracked materials or residuals of that material to enter the storm water conveyance system. 17. All plans must be signed by a registered Civil Engineer in the State of Minnesota. 18. Show the dimensions of the new parking stalls on the site plan. The new parking stalls are required to be 9-feet wide by 18-feet long. 19. Add the latest City standard detail plate nos. 5203,5214, 5215, 5300, 5301. 20. Deleted. 21. On the grading/utility plan: a. City as-builts show the size of the existing sanitary service as 6-inch diameter; revise the proposed pipe size shown on the plans to comply. b. Show the proposed sanitary sewer service invert. c. Show all proposed contours. d. Show a minimum 75-foot rock construction entrance. e. Revise the size of the proposed storm sewer to be a maximum of 12-inch diameter. f. Revise the plan to show the correct elevation contours and spot elevations. 22. Installation of the private utilities for the site will require permits and inspections through the City's Building Department. 23. The applicant must show the location/elevation of an emergency overflow point for the parking lot that is 1.5-feet lower than the proposed building elevation. 24. Storm sewer sizing calculations are required to be submitted at the time of building permit application. The proposed storm sewer must be sized for a lO-year storm event. 25. Sanitary sewer and water hookup charges will be applicable for the new building. The 2004 trunk hookup charge is $1,458 per unit for sanitary sewer and $2,814 per unit for watermain. The 2004 SAC charge is $1,425 per unit. All of these charges are based on the number of 73 Planning Commission Meeting - November 16,2004 SAC units calculated by the Met Council. These charges will be collected at the time of building permit issuance. Sanitary sewer and watermain hookup fees may be specially assessed against the parcel. 26. The minimum drive aisle width required for the parking lot is 26-feet. Revise the plans to comply. 27. An NPDES permit from the MPCA must be obtained for the site grading. 28. The northbound lanes of Great Plains Boulevard, south of Lake Drive, must be striped for a left-through lane and a right through lane along with appropriate signage. 29. Extend the pick up area to include the area of the two handicap stalls directly adjacent to the pick up area and relocate the handicap stalls to the south portion of the building. 30. Install a 4 way stop sign at the intersection of Great Plains Boulevard and Lake Drive. 31. Fire Marshal conditions: a. A 10 foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e. street lamps, trees, shrubs, bushes, Xcel Energy, Qwest, cable TV and transformer boxes. This is to ensure fire hydrants can be quickly located and safely operated by firefighters. Pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance #9-1. b. Yellow curbing and "No Parking Fire Lane" signs will be required. Contact the Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact location of yellow curbing and location of signs to be installed. c. Submit utility plans to Fire Marshal for review and approval. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to O. Sacchet: Good luck with it. Thank you. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Papke noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated October 19, 2004 as presented. Sacchet: And I do have something about minutes. On page 19 I think it is. Yes, 19. You know, page 19 of the, it says we denied all appliance sales and services. I think we only denied big ones. We actually allow them if they're small. Aanenson: There was a lot of ambiguity in that motion. You can't deny but yet approve something. It's either approve with a selected list, so there was ambiguity in your motion on that. Sacchet: Well. 74