PRC 2005 03 05
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 22, 2005
Chairman Stolar called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Glenn Stolar, Tom Kelly, Jack Spizale, Steve Scharfenberg, Ann
Murphy, Kevin Dillon and Paula Atkins
STAFF PRESENT:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Corey Hoen, Recreation
Supervisor; and Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent
APPROVAL OF AGENDA:Kelly moved, Atkins seconded to approve the agenda
amended as follows: Under Administrative Presentations Todd Hoffman added voting for a
recipient of the Rotary’s 2005 Distinguished Service Award and under Commission
Member Reports Chairman Stolar asked to discuss a meeting he attended with the Met
Council’s Park and Regional Park Policy Plan 2030. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
None.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:Murphy moved, Scharfenberg seconded to approve the
verbatim and summary minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated
February 22, 2005 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously
with a vote of 7 to 0.
RECOMMENDATION TO REMOVE AND DISPOSE OF WOOD PLAYGROUND
STRUCTURES, BANDIMERE HEIGHTS PARK.
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Stolar, members of the commission. As you are aware, in 2004 of
last year the city park and recreation department completed a safety assessment of 10 wood
playground structures currently residing in our park system. For the purpose of that assessment
we identified 15 hazardous categories, all of which are listed on your report. Upon conclusion of
that assessment it was found that all 10 of those structures were out of compliance with current
Consumer Product Safety Commission guidelines and that they should be removed. Staff, with
the help of the commission appealed that case to the City Council and with their approval and
their support we are indeed removing all of those structures and replacing most of them. The one
exception is the Bandimere Heights play structure. It had 16 areas of concern with multiple
head, neck, torso entrapments and partially bound… With the 2 new play structures located at
Bandimere Community Park just up the trail, it didn’t make sense to replace the existing
playground at Bandimere neighborhood park. They’re physically joined on 3 sides. Bandimere
Community Park just wraps around the entire border of Bandimere Heights Park. The 2
structures, the old play structure, the one that currently exists in Bandimere Heights Park and
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
then 2 new structures up in Bandimere Community Park are about 900 feet apart. If you move
over just slightly you could just look right up the trail and see the other 2 structures. Staff
completed a neighborhood mailing to ensure that residents were aware of our plan to remove and
nd
not replace that structure. We completed that mailing on March 2. Since that time I received 2
inquiries. One resident wanted to know what would remain after the structure would be
removed, and we plan to keep it as a clean, grass location once it’s removed and cleaned up. The
second resident preferred that we leave the old structure in place if all we were going to do is
remove it and again with the number of safety concerns present, it’s not an option for the city to
do that. And he understood that I believe after a short conversation. Recommendation to the
commission is recommend that the commission recommend the City Council approve the
removal and disposal of the Bandimere Heights wood playground structure in the spring.
Stolar: Okay, thank you. Paula, let’s start with you. Any questions for Todd?
Atkins: No. Sounds like it’s pretty clear. Pretty detailed report.
Stolar: Tom.
Kelly: Is there anything we can do with that site besides just planting grass? Can we put like a
sand volleyball court in there? Because I know it’s relatively flat in there and there’s a little bit
of, there’s some parking. It’s not a lot. I’m just wondering if there’s something we could do just
besides just planting grass.
Hoffman: You could take a look at sand volleyball or basketball court and it might be a
conversation we would have with the neighborhood or at least appeal to them to get their ideas.
We’ve had some sand volleyball courts in neighborhood parks that have not been very popular
and they actually grow a lot of weeds over time and we’ve removed more than we’ve put in in
the past half a dozen hears or so. But half court basketball has been very popular.
Kelly: Because Bandimere doesn’t have any basketball courts at all. I would be interested in
looking at other options more than just planting grass but I’m all for getting that playground
equipment out of there.
Stolar: Kevin.
Dillon: How will the structure be disposed of?
Hoffman: To a landfill. It’s not safe so you can’t re-use it.
Stolar: Okay.
Spizale: Todd, what about the other 8 structures?
Hoffman: They’re all coming out as a part of their replacements and so as we replace those
structures, a month or so before the new ones are ready to come in, we’ll be down there
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
removing the old structures. We’ll be sanding anything that can be re-used but the majority of
that equipment will be disposed of.
Stolar: Just real quick. The motion in front of us is to remove the wood play structure, and I
think that’s fine. Going along with what Tom said, I think we ought to consider what CIP items
we might want to put in in the 5 year plan. Doesn’t mean today. Doesn’t mean this summer but
we ought to at least open that possibility up for the community there. Just talk to us about things
we might put in the plan, longer term plans.
Hoffman: Absolutely.
Stolar: Half court basketball sounded like a great idea, sand volleyball court. And if they, over
time if we put it as another new play structure for 5-6 years down the road in the CIP plan,
whatever the process allows, but it’d be nice to have an option but there’s no option to remove
that structure now.
Scharfenberg: Or at least some swings out there. I mean there’s nothing at Bandimere. I mean
other than that, the new structure that they have out there now and the tower. I mean other than
down that hill, I mean it is like Tom said, it is flat. It’d be a good use of land down there to do
something with that.
Stolar: And so I think just that would be standard then within our CIP process to allow the
community to come in and talk to one of our meetings as we’re going through that and make
recommendations to us.
Hoffman: Good conversation. One neighbor that called about seeing if we could leave it did
talk about the parking and I asked well, is it something that you’re using or would you like to see
that removed and they said oh no. The neighborhood’s love it for their neighborhood parties so
they use it for parking for other reasons than the park and they appreciate that it’s there. We
could bring the neighborhood in, have a conversation about the future of that site because it is a
unique situation. It was a really important piece of ground before Bandimere was built. Now
that we have the much larger park up above, how is the land best served because it is a very
attractive piece of property.
Stolar: Exactly. Okay, any other comments? Seeing none, is there a motion from the staff
recommendation?
Kelly moved, Atkins seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the
City Council approve removal and disposal of the Bandimere Heights Park wood
playground structure. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote
of 7 to 0.
DEVELOPMENT PLAN REVIEW, LIBERTY ON BLUFF CREEK, TOWN AND
COUNTRY HOMES.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Hoffman: Chair Stolar, members of the commission. Little background on Liberty on the Bluff.
It’s, the property is a PUD or planned unit development proposal located within the 2005
MUSA, metropolitan urban service area. And it’s a region of the city currently, primarily used
for agriculture and the development potential down there is, comes to the forefront now due to
the 2005 MUSA. The fact that we now, Met Council allowed utilities to extend into that region,
and then also the eminent construction of Highway 212 has accelerated the development desire
in that area. We first saw this, I think the commission, some members may recall back in 2000, I
think it was the fall of 2002 when they brought in an initial plan for this property. Since that
time they’ve continued to work that plan and are back here this evening to talk a little bit more
about it. Regarding the comprehensive park plan in that area of the community, the city’s
comprehensive park plan calls for a neighborhood park, which is 10 to 25 acres in size be located
within half a mile of every one of the resident’s front door. That’s a plan that we’ve been using
more many years and has served our city well. Part of the planning for this region, we identified
a 40 acre parcel for a future park/elementary school site. On this plan you can start to see how
212 as it runs through the property and this is Lyman Boulevard on the north side. Audubon, as
you head down to Chaska and the public school’s over here on this side. …this triangular area,
it’s approximately 600 acres in total size. The site we’re talking about tonight is up on….and
some major features of the development include this east/west collector road, which will come
through from the extension of Powers to the west and connect up to this intersection down in the
Chaska area. Bluff Creek corridor running all the way north. Northwest to southeast through the
property. It’s an important preservation corridor for the city as identified in the Bluff Creek
Overlay District and then a trail corridor, it’s our desire to see an unimpeded pedestrian trail
corridor all the way from really Minnewashta Regional Park down to the river and the city has
been successful in acquiring those as we go along. Just as a point of interest, in this region that
will take, a future underpass of Lyman Boulevard, which has currently been discussed with the
County. It will probably require a bridge at some northern location across the creek. An
underpass at this future collector road. An underpass at Highway 212 and then it will come back
up on grade down at Pioneer Trail and most likely cross and head into the river valley. So major
pedestrian, future pedestrian corridor and preservation corridor. This green is the initial site that
was identified for park. Since our conversation with the school district, they do not see a future
need for another elementary school in this area of the city so they have backed off of their plans
to partner with the city and acquire property in that location for a future elementary school, so we
will still move ahead in the lower regions in acquiring 10 to 20 acres of property which is
between the collector street and the Bluff Creek corridor to allow a very public location. Pretty
much in the center of this entire development region, so this neighborhood park, it’s almost a
large neighborhood park. Will service the future homes in the residential development and
industrial development as it develops through that area. It’s strategically located, centrally
located. So as a part of the plan that you’ll be seeing tonight, it does not include a public park in
that particular property because of the location of our future park that we’ve identified. We
already mentioned the trail plan. What we would like the applicant to do is connect their
community through internal trail connections down to the Bluff Creek trail corridor. Trails are
an important part of our community. We currently have 42 miles of pedestrian trails. We
always rank at the top of our user surveys. They’re used by all segments of our population and
are very popular. That Bluff Creek corridor trail will absolutely be a beautiful segment in the
city and we want to make sure that the residents of this neighborhood can easily access, probably
through 2 different types of trails. A nature trail or passive trail going down through the woods.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Those are always the favorite of people, residents. The other trails which I call more of a
transportation or just a, you know getting from Point A to Point B, there will be a second trail
that parallels that road, the collector road and those are a nice component of our trail system but
they’re not as desirable as the nature internal trails and Krista will go over some of those trail
plans as she presents tonight. With that, it’s the recommendation that the Park and Rec
Commission recommend the City Council require the following conditions of approval
concerning parks and trails for Liberty on the Bluff PUD. Number 1, that we collect full park
dedication fees be collected per city ordinance in lieu of requiring parkland dedication. That
money will then be used for acquisition and development of the neighborhood park in the region.
Number 2. The trails on both the north and the south side of the collector Road A be widened to
10 feet. I think in some preliminary findings they were shown at 8 feet. Our new city standard is
a 10 foot wide trail. That the internal or private trails north of Block 1 be carefully planned to
allow convenient access to the Bluff Creek corridor. And that other internal or private trails
connecting residents to the amenities within the PUD be enhanced to make sure to provide that
convenient and pleasant experience for the future residents to gain access to our comprehensive
trail system. I’d like to go ahead and call up the applicant, she can introduce herself and…
Krista Novack: Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to present tonight. My name is
Krista Novack. I am the Community Planning Manager for Town and Country Homes. I also
have here with me tonight Ron Suchs. He is our Entitlements Manager, and just to kind of touch
on some of the things that Todd went over. What I want to talk about are the recommendations
for approval. The first two items talking about dedication, park fees in lieu of parkland
dedication. Town and Country Homes will be complying with that recommendation. Item 2, let
me read over that again. The 10 foot expansion of the trails along the collector street, we’ll be
doing that as well. On both sides of the collector street, these trails will be widened from 8 feet
to 10 feet. Internal trails are still 8 feet and then we also have 5 foot sidewalks throughout the
site. Another recommendation in Todd’s staff report was the trail north of Block 1. Block 1
being right here. This trail along here, right along the heavily wooded northern Bluff Creek area.
Currently, the way we have the trail shown here was based on assumptions that we didn’t have
the knowledge at this point because some of the final plans for the area haven’t been pinned
down, to know if we had an option to realign that trail to go through, actually through that
northern area because there are some spectacular bluffs and scenic areas within that and pending
your feedback tonight and your recommendations, we actually would like to, we think that the
opportunity would be even a better option than what we’re showing right now. To connect to the
north/south Bluff Creek corridor trail.
Hoffman: You want to show them that road that you’re thinking of Krista?
Krista Novack: This is the trail I’m talking about right here. Currently it’s aligned just behind
the walkout units that we have and we would like to propose that we realign it to go sort of in it’s
natural entrance here, and follow grades appropriately to connect more over here and inbetween
these two bluff areas. On this overview map, it seems kind of, just to kind of give you an idea of
where the connection would be to the north/south collector trail. That realignment would go
through here and connect this pinched area by this north/south trail. Currently we’re showing the
trail aligned along the south edge of this wooded area and would possibly go through Mr.
Peterson’s property on the future connect to the, how Todd referenced it, the transportation more
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
oriented trail that goes along the collector road. This way if we were to realign it, we would
provide a scenic trail connection as well as more of a convenience and transit oriented trail
connection. The last item on the staff report referenced just in general trying to make sure we
enhance and improve all connections within our community for connectivity and pedestrian
friendliness throughout our site. There weren’t any specific recommendations but we did take a
look at our plan again. Our plan is currently in the preliminary plat process of the formal review
so there may be some details change but currently in looking at our plan, we did identify one
area we wanted to add some more sidewalks. And that area was right here along this western
edge of our commons area… We would like to, well we will be providing another 5 foot
sidewalk along here. So then the last item I’d like to talk about is our pool amenity area that we
are planning. It is currently in the process of being finalized. We’ve been working on trying to
pin down a budget for this area and therefore enhancing the qualities and features of the area as
we move forward with the review process. This area… Currently on our site plan it’s referenced
as Outlot C. It’s about .7 acres. That does not include the wetlands and ponds that you see
surrounding it. What we currently have in mind is an approximately a 4,800 square foot pool
house structure along with the standard sized pool and a wading pool for children. That would
be surrounded by a wrought iron fencing. The pool house would have both men and women
restroom facilities and shower facilities, as well as a storage area. The pool house, along with all
the other common areas will be professionally maintained by an association. We also will be
providing adequate parking spaces in that area to utilize the pool house amenities. So with that
said I’m willing to take any questions at this time.
Stolar: Thank you Krista.
Krista Novack: You’re welcome.
Stolar: Appreciate the presentation. Kevin, why don’t we start with you. Any questions?
Dillon: Yeah, does this, we had a presentation by Lundgren Brothers not too long ago. Where is
that one in relation to this, just out of curiosity? That was kind of in the same neck of the woods.
Hoffman: To the east. Quite a ways to the east. It would be more on the Powers direction.
Powers extension. By the same area. Just on the western side of that. That property was on the
eastern side of this MUSA expansion.
Dillon: I’ll have a few more questions maybe…
Stolar: Jack.
Spizale: Actually I’ve got one more for Todd. This 20 acres for future park. Would that be
completed in this neighborhood?
Hoffman: Well the acquisition would take place when the property where the park is located is
in for development submission, just like this one is, so the date of that future park acquisition and
development is currently no.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Spizale: So basically until that was done there, they’d be without a park.
Hoffman: Yeah. Public park, right.
Spizale: Okay. That’s all I got.
Hoffman: We already met with the developer on that last week so, it’s not like it’s not in the
hopper. It’s being worked on.
Stolar: Steve.
Scharfenberg: You had mentioned that the internal trails are 8 feet. Is that standard for internal
trails?
Hoffman: Yeah, many of the private trails go down to an 8 foot width and that does not bother
staff.
Scharfenberg: Okay. And Todd, with respect to the recommendation of realigning the trail,
what is staff’s thought on that?
Hoffman: We think that’s a positive. Very nice improvement over the trail which would be a
small, kind of nature loop but then would get you back to the street trail whereas if we realign it,
it will take you directly to the creek. What we find from our residents comments, if they can
walk on a nature trail versus an on street trail, they’re going to, every time they’ll be on that
nature trail.
Scharfenberg: Would any proposal have to be run by, through staff to get your approval before it
would undergo.
Hoffman: Yeah, we’ll continue to work with the developer and that trail may in fact end up to be
a public trail, depends on where the land ownership ends up in that part of the development so
we would work with them.
Stolar: Okay, Paula.
Atkins: So it wouldn’t necessarily be a public trail?
Hoffman: It’d be a public trail but some of these trails, they’re all in a public area. Like think of
Pulte Homes out on Highway 5 and 41. We have a public trail system in the area but they’ve
made connections to, which are on the association property. Anybody can use those trails.
Atkins: In the pool amenity area, would that have play structures?
Krista Novack: That particular area of our development, what we’re trying to do is provide the
pool amenity area along with some more passive recreation because there are some nice wetlands
and ponds in the area. We were thinking of more maybe bird watching or benches or something
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
like that. Those elements are in the process, as we’re going along. Kind of going in tandem with
our preliminary approval process to try to finalize those details but we were looking at this area
as being more of a passive area.
Atkins: Thank you.
Dillon: Just have a question. What’s that proposed for…?
Krista Novack: At this point that’s just a green area to provide more open spaces maybe for
playing you know football or soccer. Something. Just an open space area for people to, it’s
more just to provide more green in the plan.
Kelly: Would that…stop at the creek or would it somehow link up with the proposed park? In
some way or it’s just kind of stops when it hits the creek.
Hoffman: Once it goes off of their property we would have to work with the other properties in
the area and we would connect it to the creek trail and then it would eventually get up to the
park.
Kelly: Okay. And the nature trail, would it be a pavement or would it be kind of crushed
limestone or.
Hoffman: Pavement.
Kelly: It would be pavement, okay.
Stolar: Well Todd you brought up a question. So this area in the north, this wooded area both in
the north and south, is there a question as to whether that would be part of this development? Or
you said because the trail, whether it’s a public trail.
Hoffman: Once it leaves.
Stolar: Once it leaves that, okay.
Hoffman: This is all part of their proposal. The north and south is being preserved. For a
variety of reasons.
Stolar: …those areas to add to this Bluff Creek amenity that we’re going to have so it makes it
flow nicely. So thanks.
Krista Novack: Thank you.
Murphy: Is it just the Chateau neighborhood that does not have sidewalks?
Krista Novack: I’ll go ahead and point to the Chateau product that we have laid out here.
Currently you’re seeing Chateau on here, here. We have some 4 unit Chateau units along here.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
And we also have 3 Chateaus going in here. Chateau is actually it’s one of two back to back
products. So not like the grove style homes where you’re going to give them maybe courtyards
where the front doors face each other and there’s green space and there’s sidewalks. These
Chateau products are back to back so what you’re seeing here actually aren’t the entrances to the
homes. They’re the driveways, so the entrances to the homes are actually on the ends, for the
end units and then there’s some in the middle here. But there’s no real green space right here to
provide a nice sidewalk along the…
Murphy: But the other neighborhoods all have sidewalks?
Krista Novack: Yes. We provided sidewalks anywhere we thought we could so, at least on one
side of every street and…the neighbors would get from one sidewalk to the other. What we do
typically is because a lot of people use their garages for entering their property. Homeowners
don’t use their front doors unless they have guests over. So we don’t typically put sidewalks on
the driveway. One, because of maintenance and two, for the safety…kind of walk along the
private drives to the connection areas.
Scharfenberg: Is the builder responsible for building the collector roads? Is that the
responsibility of the builder or?
Hoffman: It can go either way.
Krista Novack: I’m not sure, I think the City is getting the process of designing roads. I think if
we wanted to get in prior to the city being able to get in, that’s something we’d have to discuss
with staff and we…make sure exactly what our protocol is at this point.
Hoffman: It’s a public improvement and either the city builds it or the applicant builds it and
turns it over to the city.
Scharfenberg: So then who owns the property where the collector roads would be on? Do you
guys? Does the developer?
Krista Novack: At this point it’s on our property but it would be dedicated to the city.
Scharfenberg: I see.
Stolar: Any other questions? Okay, seeing none. Thank you again.
Krista Novack: Thank you very much.
Stolar: Any discussion from the commission members on the motion? Seeing none, do we have
a motion to approve staff’s recommendation?
Dillon: I move to approve staff’s recommendation.
Murphy: I’ll second.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Dillon moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
that the City Council require the following conditions of approval concerning parks and
trails for Liberty on Bluff Creek PUD:
1. Full park dedication fees be collected per city ordinance in lieu of requiring parkland
dedication.
2. The trails on both the north and south sides of collector road “A” are widened to 10 feet.
3. The internal or private trail north of Block 1 be carefully planned to allow convenient
access to the Bluff Creek Corridor.
4. Other internal or private trails connecting residents to amenities within the PUD be
enhanced.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
RECOMMENDATION CONCERNING 2005 LAKE ANN BEACH LIFEGUARD
CONTRACT.
Stolar: Commission members, please note there were some additional handouts given to us.
Hoffman: Chair Stolar, members of the commission. Lake Ann beach has been a lifeguarded
facility since approximately 1976. The City reviews and approves the lifeguard contract for that
beach on an annual basis. The reason for our contractual arrangement, if you can think about it
is, we have a single beach location within our community. We have no public pools and that was
not in our best interest to guard it and establish our own water program for lifeguards and
lessons…make it financial prudent so we contract and for the past some 20 years we’ve
contracted with Minnetonka Community Education Services for that beach lifeguard and lesson
program. This year the city has the opportunity to review two contracts. The Minnetonka
Community Education Services and a new company named Minnesota Safety Services.
Minnesota Safety Services was formed by John Raby, a former employee of the community ed
department and John was in charge of that lifeguard program at Minnetonka for many years. He
was Jerry’s contact and my contact before that for our lifeguard contract. Both Mr. Raby and
representatives from the Minnetonka Community Educational Services department are here this
evening to answer any questions that you have. Staff has requested both companies submit
information detailing how they will provide lifeguard services. That information is attached in
your packet. The contracts are almost identical. The bids are $176 apart. Representatives are
here this evening. It’s staff recommendation that the commission recommend that the City
Council approve a contract with Minnetonka Community Educational Services in the amount of
$27,555 to provide lifeguards and swimming lessons for the 2005 season. That amount has been
included in our Lake Ann operations budget for 2005. I’d be happy to answer any questions and
then the commission can take presentations if they’d like from the contract providers and we’ll
answer any questions.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: What I’d like to do is, if we could, without objection, we’re ask some of the more basic,
fundamental clarification questions for Todd first. Then I think we ought to invite our guests to
make a brief presentation and then we ask them questions. Is that an okay process commission
members? Okay, so questions for Todd. Why don’t you start Tom.
Kelly: I just have one question. Looking at the contracts ourselves, at the Minnesota, the MCSE
thth
starting on June 10 and the other one starts on June 4. So even though the, I just want to know
was, I know that the MSS one is less expensive but if you take into account that actually gets
even more. It’s even less expensive than the 276 because we do get the extra 6 days.
thth
Hoffman: Both providers will start on either June 4 or June 10 for the same price so.
Kelly: Oh they will, okay. Okay, okay.
Hoffman: I didn’t get a chance to talk to Jerry. He’s out of town. I don’t know why we have
two different dates there. We specify the start date for the contract and so.
Stolar: Ann.
Murphy: Todd, what’s the reason for us recommending the MCES over, what’s the reasoning
behind this recommendation?
Hoffman: What’s the reasoning? We have two identical contracts. We have a service provider
that has been with the city for 20 some plus years. Our residency is about 40 to 45 percent in the
Minnetonka school district. The contract that we have to provide the services is one of the good
things about that relationship that we have with that school district. It’s served our community,
our residents very well for 26 years. Unless there’s an outstanding reason why we should switch
to a separate provider, I see no reason from a staff’s perspective to change that relationship.
There are many intrinsic, intangible benefits to having a relationship with one of our school
districts in this fashion. We contract with both our districts for a variety of services and we’re
like organizations. In a situation where you have a contractual arrangement, if there were issues
regarding the contract of the beach, you’d be dealing with school district that has the financial
backing and the wherewithal really to back up the city in any situation so, those are some of the
reasons.
Stolar: Okay.
Dillon: I don’t know if it’s really relevant to our decision or anything but why did Mr. Raby
leave the one company to start his own?
Hoffman: I don’t know if that’s relevant either. He can choose to answer that question if he
wants to.
Stolar: And you can feel free to ask him when we’re there. Okay. Jack.
Spizale: No questions.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: Steve.
Scharfenberg: No questions.
Stolar: Paula.
Atkins: The swimming lessons schedule, lesson plan the same?
Hoffman: I believe so, yeah. There’s no change that I’m aware of.
Atkins: With both companies. They’re both service providers.
Hoffman: Yeah, they can speak to that too if they want to.
Stolar: I just have one final question. What was last year’s contract again? Do you remember
off the top of your head?
Hoffman: The amount?
Stolar: Yeah.
Hoffman: No, I do not.
Stolar: I forgot to pull out last year’s one. If you would speak to that please. I guess without
further ado, if there’s no objection from commission members why don’t we invite our guests to
speak and I have no preference for who goes first. Is there any desire of our guests? Okay, John
why don’t you. Mr. Raby.
John Raby: Sure. What I want to do is I just wanted to come in and talk to you a little bit, just to
say why I think we need to address the situation of whether we should change lifeguard services.
The first one I want you to start with is last night the City of Excelsior and the City of
Deephaven have hired my company to do their lifeguard services so we have two of the main
programs are now with me. I started, I grew up in this community. I still live in this community.
I’ve been a resident of Shorewood actually my entire life. Just jumped around to different parts
of it. Went to Minnetonka school myself. I started working in the MCS aquatics program in
1978 as a 13 year old. Yeah they broke some laws to hire me but that’s I guess how it worked
back then. I was working as a cashier at the pool and so forth, and moved on from there. I have
started lifeguarding on Lake Ann Beach in 1980 and I’ve never left the program. Stayed
involved with it. 1989-1988 I took over the aquatics program as the pool director. In 1989 I
took on the role of pool director and beach director, combining three different peoples jobs into
one. Obviously this is something I’ve dedicated my life to and it’s very important to me. This
program. Something that we’ve done, in 1988 I took over a very small aquatics program and
built it into one of the largest aquatics in the state. We’re nationally known. We’re very well
organized. One of the biggest and most effective programs. So again it was very hard for me to
walk away from that whole combination of programming and doing where I built it from where
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
it was and where it is now. I’m very proud of the fact that I have a very highly trained staff
that’s very loyal. We have a very small turnover and most of that staff is coming with me and
obviously now that I have contracts with other cities, obviously the top of the staff is going to
definitely work in those cities because they’re staying with me. We really push very hard in our
professionalism of our lifeguards. You know we teach real high caliber training as far as skills
and techniques. We also teach real high caliber PR and professionalism, which is a very key
component and you can tell that by the simple fact that the city gets no, very rarely ever gets
complaints about the lifeguards on any of our services. And that’s training. We teach them how
not to get complaints. Teach them how to be representatives of the city and pass things on. My
programs have set the standard in training in the State of Minnesota for a long, long time. Our in
service training is second to none. I’m giving you a plan for what our in service training
program is. It’s very intense. We spend more hours in training than any other program. The
training we do, we do things that are not currently in the Red Cross programs. We’re doing
things that are advanced beyond that. The current Red Cross program, people have a
misconception. They believe that a lifeguard can make a rescue in the water with any situation.
That’s not true. Lifeguards currently right now have to be trained how to use rescue equipment
to make rescues. Not our lifeguards. Our lifeguards have the next level of training. They can
make rescues without rescue equipment. They’re trained that well. We had rescue equipment
here in 1989 before it was the norm in the industry because we think rescue equipment is much
better than not having it, and we’ve had it for all of our staff, but we also think that it’s a mistake
to not have a back-up plan if the equipment doesn’t work, so our staff is trained at a higher level
than the current American Red Cross program. All of our employees have to take a water test to
be hired. You can’t just walk in with a certificate and say I’m a lifeguard. You have to go in the
water and show us your skills. All of our staff, the first week of the summer and the sixth week
of the summer have to go through and show us all their CPR skills. We don’t trust the card
again, same thing. We want to see their skills. We want to move them to the next level. In
service training is so important to me that since 1989 when I took over the aquatics director
position I have only missed one in service meeting. That means I’ve attended 143 trainings
where I’ve been the lead instructor for a training of lifeguards working at Lake Ann beach.
Okay. My training staff has over 110 years of experience in aquatics. These are the guys that
come on deck and teach the staff what’s going on. They’re not necessarily lifeguarding any
more, but they’re the guys who come in and do the training with me. Right now currently I have
commitments from 100. 100? I like that. Currently I have commitments from 37 of my
employees from last year and this is my college age and up. Three of these are high school kids
will be in high school next year because they found out about me. I’ve been avoiding the high
school kids because they’re Minnetonka students and I didn’t want to get them in the middle of
this issue. Couple things just…personally as a trainer. I am nationally known for my abilities to
do waterfront training and lifeguarding. I was actually a member of the National Red Cross
technical advisory committee for the current lifeguard training program. If you open up the
manual you’ll see my name in there. All the skills that were done were passed through my, for
my ideas and thoughts and you know critiquing and so forth. I also before that was also on the
national program to develop the current junior lifeguard program which is called Guard Start.
And on that program I was actually on the development team so I was involved in the curriculum
and the planning and so forth, so again not just your typical aquatics director here. Also a couple
years ago I discovered that the Hennepin County Water Patrol did not have any kind of water
rescue training, which I thought was kind of a strange thing, so started working with them and
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
I’ve now trained all of their deputies and their special deputies in water rescue and spinal back
boarding and actually 2 years ago working with the DNR and the Hennepin County Water Patrol
we did a statewide water rescue program where we trained sheriffs and conservation officers and
there were a few Carver County’s deputies there as well. In water rescue techniques. I was just
invited last week by the St. Paul Red Cross to head up a statewide training that they’re going to
do for teaching people who are aquatic directors, how to do in service training for beaches. So
I’ve accepted that position as a volunteer to help them out in April as the lead instructor there.
Okay. You also have on your list there just to show that I’m not one of those people that has lots
of certificates and actually doesn’t teach, you have a list of my last, of my current teaching for
the last 11 years and one, Todd actually has the Red Cross documentation proving that you guys
have a little chart that shows how many classes I’ve taught, and if you’ll notice, there’s quite a
bit. I’ve got over 400 lifeguard training students in the last 11 years. Over 200 waterfront
people so there’s a lot of students that I’ve taught so I’m not just, you know I’m actually
physically doing it too. And that’s over and above my full time job. Some things you need to
realize, if you separate from, you know because Deephaven and Excelsior have now come on
board. You are the last of the multi-man facilities if you stay with community services. You
have to realize that on a Saturday afternoon, if it’s busy down here and you need an extra guard,
you don’t have that extra guard. When you have Excelsior and Deephaven tied in, we can call
Excelsior and say, are you busy? We can send a guard down. We can do the same thing with
Deephaven. Send a guard down, and vice versa. We can send a guard from Lake Ann to help
Deephaven. You’ve lost that ability by separating from those two facilities. And then I guess I
have to, I’m a little concerned that when my contract went public, and I’m running a status quo
program which has been 11 weeks, or 79 days of programming, I’m running a status program
without my lifeguarding days. My contract was made public. All of a sudden there’s now
discussion about changing the other contract. I think that’s questionable. You know I think that
they’ve got a 10 week season scheduled with Deephaven right now. That was what they
proposed there. They put a 10 week season out everywhere. Basically now all of a sudden
they’ve turned around and make a statement that they’ll change. I don’t know. Also if you
notice, they listed on there for shifts a 4 guards from 1:00 to 5:30. We’ve never run 4 guards in
that timeframe. They’re making up a schedule that has never been done before. Quite frankly
we do critique, we do change those schedules quite a bit based on what’s going on with
attendance, and right now you’ll have too many guards at 5:30 and not enough guards at 6:00. If
you look at how we do it, you’re much better off to send one guard home at 4:30 and keep an
extra guard on til 6:00. You’ll have 3 guards from 4:30 to 6:00 where you need your people.
You don’t need 4 guards at 4:30. You don’t need 4 guards at 5:30 but you do need 3 guards at
6:00. Plus if you notice we have one rotation there where the guards are split. It’s a split shift.
What that does is that allows the 2:30 guard to either stay later, if we do need extra help or have
the other guard come in earlier if we need extra help, so again those are things you learn by
doing the program for a long time. We’ve worked those out. And I think really on that, that’s
pretty much I think. Again the swimming lesson question I think was really good. I’ve put out
there what we’re going to do. I’m curious what the district’s going to do. We’re just status
quoing. 4 sets of lessons. 4 days a week. 4 weeks, two sessions. We’re not changing the
system. It’s been the system I’ve been doing for 16 years. And I do have a list, I have a 35 page
staff manual. We’re not halfway there. We’re doing this and I have a full list of all 37
employees with their start dates and again these are not, these are all experienced guards.
There’s not one brand new guard in there.
14
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: Thanks. Maybe Todd, I think why don’t we do questions now. Okay. Steve, why don’t
you start with questions.
Scharfenberg: I don’t have anything right now.
Stolar: Paula.
Atkins: In essence you’ve developed the MCES program?
John Raby: I feel I can take a lot of credit for a lot of the development there. I had 3 more
beaches came on after I took over. The program that’s running now is my program.
Atkins: So if we’re the last community to approve a contract, does that mean that the MCES
program will fold?
John Raby: No. I mean, and…I’m not misleading you. Wayzata has not made a decision yet.
And Tonka Bay is making a decision tonight, but of the 3 big beaches, the 2 big ones made it
yesterday and you guys are the third beach right now. Some of the beaches are one man
facilities and one man facilities are, they can’t do much but take care of themselves.
Stolar: Any more Paula?
Atkins: No, not right now.
Stolar: Tom.
Kelly: The only question I have is on staffing, given that you, you committed Excelsior and
Deephaven, would 37 employees be sufficient to cover those 2 beaches as well as us?
John Raby: 37 employees is more than I need to do the program. The entire program. All the
beaches.
Stolar: So following on that question, what are you going to do with the people that you don’t
have the capacity to use?
John Raby: Well, the reality is I’m going to take the very most experienced of those guards and
put them in my program. I’m going to work my way down. And the dangerous thing of that of
course is that you lose your base of youngsters. Your puppies that are going to build your
program later, so it’s going to be an interesting year. We’ll be strong for several years but we’re
going to have to start recruiting younger to replace our older guys as they go away, and we’re
going to, and you know that’s the advantage of the bigger program is we do have, like for
example you guys have a fantastic training shift, that one shift where it’s a 3 hour, 3 ½ hour shift.
It’s a great shift to bring in a first year guard, who’s younger because they have a 3 hour shift
there. They’re not getting themselves into an 8 hour shift and they can learn and develop that
way.
15
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: In your discussion you’ve talked about, your kept saying, you know I’ve done this. I’ve
done this. All of that relates to what you’ve done for MCES and you’re just going to start doing
that using the manual and all as your people start coming in.
John Raby: Yes. I have, this is the only place I’ve ever worked. This is my career and you
know if you’d asked me last year, I would have told you I was going to retire here. At
Minnetonka Community Services.
Kelly: Could I ask… I was curious, on 30 some employees, roughly what percent of them have
previous Lake Ann guard experience?
John Raby: Almost, well quite frankly almost all of them because the way we move the guards
around, they do experience most the beaches. They do a lot of working for each other and
supporting. One of my supervisors was 3 years full time on Lake Ann. So again 3 of these guys
are from last year’s full time staff. But again you know, there’s quite a bit of experience there.
Murphy: I just want to clarify. So Deephaven and Excelsior were last year were using MCES.
John Raby: Everybody was using MCES last year.
Murphy: They have made a decision to go with you.
John Raby: Yep.
Murphy: Okay. How, I guess how are you better than MCES or how do you see things that
you’re better?
John Raby: Well I think that I have, first off I really know these facilities and I can tell you
exactly where every drop off, every issue as far as where the sun comes in, the wind blows the
sand. What you’re doing with there. I have extensive waterfront training. You know there’s
lots of people that are trained to be lifeguards but if you’re not trained in how to do waterfront,
which is beaches, you know it’s a very different game. So I think that just my personal
experience and my knowledge and my reputation in the industry and my returning staff, you
know…for 6-7 years. I really think that that says a lot for it.
Murphy: So is the program going to be any different this year than it was last year then at Lake
Ann or would you just look for the same?
John Raby: Quite frankly you know, I think the relationship for, with Lake Ann beach has been
with me and I’m just changing the name, so the, I’m planning basically to run. I’ve been running
the program for a long time. You’re always critiquing and seeing what you’re doing but yes, the
program’s going to be very similar and it’s going to be pretty much status quo and hopefully
with a lot of the same staff. It’s going to be the same management. It’s going to be you know, it
should be a seamless change except for the uniforms will change.
16
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Dillon: When did you start your company? Just this year?
st
John Raby: January. I resigned from the District January 1.
Dillon: And why?
Stolar: Let me just, feel free if you don’t feel it’s relevant don’t feel pressured.
John Raby: You know I’ll make this statement because I’m very loyal to community services
and I don’t want anybody to think I’m here to wreck them or damage them and quite frankly I’m
hoping that we can have a good relationship so my staff during the summer can work there
during the winter, because they need a lot more staff in the wintertime than they do in the
summer time in the pools. Some of my guys will, and it will be good for them to have
employment so I’m hoping they can maintain their relationship. Our department’s changed a lot
in the last year. I think the best thing to do is if you just look at the staff directory, from last year
at this time to currently, you’ll see that the director has changed. Two coordinators have
changed. 6 program managers have changed and 3 clerical have changed. A lot of people have
left the department and there’s things and again like I say, probably at this, I think that’s
probably enough to say. But like I said, I left a 57 year old retirement package full of benefits
and stuff. It’s just, it’s time to move on.
Spizale: Probably one question. Do you or will you have any type of training with your
lifeguards and rescue personnel like fire department and?
John Raby: Yes.
Spizale: And what would that be?
John Raby: Typically, Excelsior Fire Department responds to every one of our facilities except
for Lake Ann. And we train with Excelsior Fire Department every 3 years. We try to get them
in the water at actually the beach. We haven’t been as good with Chanhassen’s Fire Department.
We’ve done training with them, the last one was probably about 6 years ago. And it’s time to do
that letter. Quite frankly one of the things I see as an advantage in this, for me is I’m not going
to have all the recreation programs that I did you know. I’m going to be concentrating on this
program so I can make those connections a little better.
Stolar: And just for clarification again when you say we, you’re talking about we, MCES did
these training 6 years ago.
John Raby: You know I’m really sorry because bottom line is yes. I have been MCES for so
long that I say we…
Stolar: For the record I just want to make sure we’re clear about that.
John Raby: You’re absolutely correct and I’m sorry but yes, it’s very, very hard for me to turn
off the MCES. I’m very loyal to MCES.
17
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: Okay. Then we’ll invite you obviously to sit through the other discussion.
Audience: Mr. Chairperson? I’m here to speak on John’s behalf. Is there a point at which I
might be able to say.
Stolar: In what capacity would you be doing that because we have plenty of personal references.
I don’t think we need any more comments on that.
Audience: Okay. I’m here as a parent of 4 lifeguards and a 20 year Deephaven resident…would
like to advocate on John’s behalf.
Stolar: I will leave it up to the commission because we received plenty of that type of
referencing so I do appreciate your taking the time. I’ll leave it up to the commission members.
Would you like to have her say a few words? Okay, thank you. Without objection then, I think
we’ve gotten several, many…
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Tim Littfin: …developed together and have been successful for nearly 30 years now. And I just
want to assure you that in community education we are very committed to continuing the very
high level of service and the high quality of programming that has become the hallmark of
community education services aquatics program, both in our pools and at the beaches and we’re
very committed to continue that partnership and I think that our proposal before you will show
that it has been solid and long term, high quality program and again we intend to continue that. I
don’t think there’s ever been any question about the quality of our programming and that will
certainly continue. Although we do have some new staff on board, the program is much larger
than one person or two people and there’s a large staff behind it and that will continue as well.
I’ve been with community ed over 11 years. Our director is new, Tim Littfin, but he’s not new
to community ed. He’s been an executive director for community education in the west metro
area for several years. He most recently in Waconia. Sarah comes to us highly qualified and
with over 15 years of experience in aquatics management, most recently from the Flagship
Corporation. In addition to the high quality and high standards that the programming in the
community education provides, I believe that the MCES aquatics program can provide for the
City of Chanhassen the added benefits to only backing up…large organization can provide.
Reliability for one. The school district’s AA1 bond rating insures the City of Chanhassen of our
sound business practices. We’ll still be here next year and the year after that and 30 years down
the road. Accountability and trust that comes from the long standing tradition of excellence and
service. When parents see lifeguards wearing the MCES suits, swimsuits at the beach, they
know that they are highly qualified, well trained and experienced and they know that their kids
will be safe. Our experience and committed staff have the support of a first rate human resources
department at the school district and the security of a $3 million dollar liability insurance
coverage that covers each and every employee, along with our property. And also we do have a
long standing staff. We have a current staff now of over 40 who are either teaching and
lifeguarding with us currently or have, and have committed to returning to work with us again
this summer after years of experience. In addition there’s the recognition and the convenience.
18
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Our MCES catalog is delivered to every residence in the community. Of our school district and
that’s nearly half of the Chanhassen residents, so they have come to rely on that and expect it,
and we make it convenience and easy for them then to access our programming through our
catalog. We also have an online registration program that’s been very popular and very
successful with community residents so they can register for swimming lessons in the comfort of
their own home, late at night in their pajamas and they can register not only for swimming
lessons but also computer class and drivers ed, all at the same time. So we have that
organization behind it. We also have a 24 hour telephone hotline for the convenience of
customers to register for programs. And we have offices staffed all day, every day, Monday
through Friday, even during the summer with customer service staff ready to answer questions.
Take registrations. Answer concerns and so on. And then also in addition our lifeguard services
and our beach lessons are part of a large and successful year round aquatics program. MCES
aquatics program offers over 800 different swimming lessons throughout the year, both at our
pools and at the beaches. Parents have really come to appreciate the fact that their children can
continue the skills progression at the beach in the summer, that they began in the winter at the
pool at Middle School West. And that’s been, that continuity has been very important and, for
our customers. Sarah already has in place an intensive staff development program for our staff
this summer and we have the advantage of being able to get that staff in the pool on a number of
occasions before the beach is open in the summer, and plan to do that and already in
conversations with all of our summer staff. So we’re excited and ready to go and again ready to
commit to our continued partnership and service. I would like to address a couple of the
questions that were answered, or asked earlier. The contract amount for community education
services is to the penny the same as it was last year. And as for the beach, the season dates as
Mr. Hoffman alluded to, that is up to the City of Chanhassen and that price will stay the same
thth
whether Chanhassen would like us to start on the, open the beaches on the 4 or the 10. And
we’re also willing to make that subject to weather conditions, so if we have a nice Memorial
Day, we can be ready to go. And I guess I would like to make one clarification about other
cities. We have similar proposals in to cities of Tonka Bay and Shorewood and Wayzata and last
night while Deephaven did award a contract to Mr. Raby’s company, Excelsior did not.
Excelsior has passed a letter of intent subject to further discussion. They’re not going to take a
th
vote on it until April 4, so I just wanted to make that clarification.
John Raby: May I respond? The condition of the intent was if one other city signed and
Deephaven signed last night…so the condition…
Tim Littfin: But they did agree at the end that they were going to continue discussion with a
th
vote on the 4 of April so.
Stolar: Any clarification Todd? I mean I don’t know that it matters that much. Okay.
Tim Littfin: I’d be glad to take any questions.
Sarah Best: Do they have kind of my background in front of you so, unless you have certain
questions that you would certainly like to ask at this time.
Stolar: Okay. Jack, want to start?
19
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Spizale: Maybe one of safety. We had one year with, we had what, 3 drownings.
Hoffman: 2. 4 drownings in total. A couple at the beach. A couple not at the beach.
Spizale: The two that were at the beach were the lifeguards were present?
Hoffman: One was, one was not.
Spizale: Has there been any changes safety wise because of those drownings? I think they took
away the swim platform. That was part of, anything else in lieu of those drownings to change
any practices or has anything, could be done or was it just.
Tim Littfin: Well I think that really.
Spizale: Maybe what I’m saying is, if you’d like to review that and try to, what could have been
done or.
Tim Littfin: Well sure. Sarah will be very close to all the beaches and all the guards on a daily
basis and they will submit reports. Reports that talk about everything from beach conditions and
water conditions to the solar count and any incident and we will respond to those very quickly,
but mostly it’s in training I think. It’s in the safety training and prevention. Making sure we
have all the right safety equipment and that our guards are well trained and that is an ongoing
process in addition to pre-season training programs that we are already, Sarah’s developed.
There’s going to be ongoing training throughout the season and safety checks and skills checks
of all of our personnel.
Spizale: Okay.
Stolar: Steve.
Scharfenberg: The question was raised about the ability, lost ability to shift guards around
because of the loss of Tonka Bay and Excelsior. Could you address that particular issue?
Tim Littfin: Sure. Actually at this point it’s only Deephaven that is not going with Community
Education Services, and we also have a strong pool aquatics program so we have a big staff and
we need to have a large staff, despite whether we have this beach or not because we, hopefully
we will have 3 or 4 other beaches as well and then again our pool program. And we have a staff
year round so they come to rely on that relationship and their employment and their, and so I
don’t see that as an issue at all. We’ll staff the beach according to need.
Scharfenberg: Okay. And Sarah, could you address, have you had any beachfront training and
just kind of give us.
20
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Sarah Best: My training is Red Cross certification. I’m a lifeguard training instructor, although
most of my experience is pool related. I have you know been at the beach and done a program.
Not managed a large program at a beach but yes, I do have beachfront experience.
Scharfenberg: Okay. And what, Sarah what is the staff that you manage at Minnetonka
Community Education Services?
Sarah Best: What is the staff?
Scharfenberg: Yeah, or how many?
Sarah Best: Right now it’s about 30. And those are kind of part time basis. We offer swimming
lessons in the evenings, on the weekends. Also first aid and safety staff as well.
Scharfenberg: Okay. I don’t have anything further.
Atkins: So you will probably be, be hiring more for the summer?
Sarah Best: Yes. And again it’s just based on need and you know, just most people are looking
for a summer position and maybe only work for the summer. It is kind of nice to get people
going and keep them year round as well and I do have staff that’s on right now that you know,
although we have swimming lessons inside, we also have outside opportunities for them as well
for the summer.
Tim Littfin: And we already have…from over 40 staff who want to return this summer to join us
again in our programming and community education services. We have the added advantage of
being able to train in the water during the winter so we can take the best and most qualified and
staff to go through like our training program and then hire them on to have, join our team.
Atkins: That’s all.
Stolar: Okay. Tom.
Kelly: What about having, can you be a little more specific about what types of training and
evaluation you do on your lifeguards both at the beginning of the season and during the season?
Sarah Best: At the beginning you know Red Cross does set up guidelines as far as what training
they are required to have. Yes, they do all go through the same exact programs being a Red
Cross certification. They do go through training as far as you know using the equipment. Going
through, how to back board at certain areas. And with the staff, some team building exercises
because those are the staff that they’re going to be working with every day so getting to know
who does what and how it kind of works together as a team. You know we’ve got the advantage
of having the pool area to work on that as well. And then mid-season I just want to, just go
through you know what has happened. What’s working. What’s not. And maybe just kind of
bring it out a little bit. And they’ll also go to first aid and CPR because that is…
21
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Kelly: Would they go through that with you or would they?
Sarah Best: They will go through that with me. The CPR is good for one year. It’s CPR, the
professional rescuer. That first aid and lifeguard training is good every 3 years but they still have
to demonstrate those skills when we go through in service training.
Murphy: As far as the lessons, what is the student-instructor ratio? Is that the same as it’s
always been or will that change?
Sarah Best: At the beach it’s 5 to 1. In the pool, depending on what level it is, if they’re smaller
children it stays at 5. If it’s older children we can have up to 8. Beside that I mean like level 4
and 5.
Murphy: Are those instructors all required to be WSI certified?
Sarah Best: I do have WSI certified people. I also have WSI aides.
Stolar: Kevin.
Dillon: So MCES is kind of like run by the Minnetonka School District?
Tim Littfin: It’s a department of the Minnetonka School District, yes.
Dillon: Is it subsidized by our school taxes?
Tim Littfin: There’s a community, general community education levy that does support all the
community education programs, yes.
Dillon: So do the funds that you take in from your lifeguarding, I mean does that cover what you
pay out to all these people? Or are we further subsidizing the taxpayers further subsidizing?
Tim Littfin: Our aquatics program is self supporting. The revenue that we take in from fees and
contracts supports our costs. Our scheduling and personnel and so on. The general community
education levy kind of supports the entire community education department. But actually no
specific dollars from that come into our aquatics program. It just helps to support the
infrastructure for community education. But they’re a non-profit organization obviously, of
course.
Dillon: That’s all the questions.
Stolar: Okay, thank you. And just to make sure we don’t miss anything, are there any follow up
questions for John or his guests? Any questions that we want to ask them?
Scharfenberg: I do. With respect to, since this is a new endeavor for you, and I didn’t see
anything in your materials regarding registration and getting out information. How is that going
to be done?
22
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
John Raby: Sure. Well first thing, you know I’m going to hope the cities will help me out with
going in their normal newsletter, and Chanhassen has always put swimming lessons in their
newsletter. My wife actually works for the online registration system company that the school
district uses so I have easy access to that organization. You are all aware of Jon Foss’s private
swim school sitting over here in Chanhassen. Jon Foss is making quite a nice living sending out
small little postcards telling people to go to a web site or call this telephone number for
information, so I’m really not concerned about getting the word out, plus the guards on the
beaches will put the word out to the public as well, where to register. So I think we should be
able to do that just fine.
Scharfenberg: Okay, thanks.
Stolar: Other questions for any of the guests.
Murphy: John, what’s your, what’s your, for lessons what’s the instructor-student ratio?
John Raby: We’re running a 5 to 1, 8 to 1. And all water safety instructors.
Murphy: And what are your employees going to do then in the winter? Or are you just hiring
them.
John Raby: You know the vast majority of my lifeguards are college students so they’re gone in
the winter. But the ones who are here I’m hoping will work for community services.
Stolar: Okay, thank you. We have the recommendation in front of us. What I’d like to do is ask
for a motion regarding the recommendation. Put it on the table and then open it up for
discussion again as commissioners can do so. So can I have a motion to approve, but I’m going
to then pause before the vote to have discussion but I’d like a motion on the table regarding the
staff’s recommendation. Which is actually parliamentary procedure. Do I have a motion?
Kelly: Do we have to?
Stolar: Just put it on the table and then we’ll discuss it. If you have questions to Todd, unless
I’m sorry. I didn’t have follow up questions to Todd. Okay. Could I have a motion on the
staff’s recommendation?
Scharfenberg: I’d move to adopt staff’s recommendation to accept the contract from
Minnetonka Community Education Services.
Stolar: Do I hear a second?
Atkins: I second.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: Okay. Then I’d like to open it up for discussion and not move right into a vote because
this is an important issue. I think, I can’t thank our guests enough for all of you for coming here.
Bringing this to bear. I do appreciate your time. Yes.
Hoffman: Chair Stolar, clarification of the motion. That it’s a recommendation to the City
Council to approve the contract.
Stolar: Correct. Thank you. Any discussion points?
Dillon: Is this the first year we’ve had competitive situation?
Stolar: That’s a good question for Todd.
Hoffman: Yeah, we’ve considered looking at other providers in the past but there has been no
reason to do that. The City of Chaska or others, and one note of interest is that in the past
historically Carver County has contracted with Minnetonka Community Schools for their
lifeguarding as well, but they’re not in this decision because they have eliminated their lifeguards
at their beaches. For budgetary concerns, they’ve eliminated lifeguards at Minnewashta
Regional Park in Chanhassen and out at Waconia beach.
Stolar: Okay, well seeing none. I guess I would move that we take a vote on this.
Scharfenberg moved, Atkins seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend approval of the Minnetonka Community Services Education contract in the
amount of $27,555 to provide lifeguard services at Lake Ann Beach for the 2005 season.
All voted in favor, except Dillon and Kelly who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote
of 5 to 2.
Stolar: This issue I’m sure will be discussed again at the City Council. Alright, thank you again
for your time.
Hoffman: That should take place next Monday night.
Stolar: If anyone can go in my place, I know Jack said maybe. I am unfortunately unable to go.
ACCESSIBILITY REPORT, LAKE ANN P ARK.
Hoffman: Chair Stolar, members of the commission. If you recall, was it last month we had the
school in or the month.
Stolar: Yeah, that was last month.
Hoffman: So as a result of that presentation from Cornerstone Home School. 2 months ago?
Scharfenberg: It was last month.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Hoffman: Alright, there we go.
Stolar: It’s in the minutes.
Hoffman: They made recommendations for improvements to the Park and Rec Commission and
the commission directed staff to follow up with some possible solutions. Jerry reviewed each
one of these. First, add more handicap picnic tables. Dale and his parks crew is converting
approximately 20 tables into handicap accessible tables. Those tables will be distributed
throughout our parks this spring. So we’ll put those in appropriate areas. High traffic areas.
Areas which are accessible to begin with and so folks could access those tables. Add automatic
doors and pull handles to the bathrooms. Investigated that. The cost per door is expensive and a
minimum of 30 inch clearance is needed for a push button. Jerry found this is not enough room
in visiting that site to mount a push button on the building but it could be mounted along on a
stand alone pedestal. According to building codes, those automatic doors are not required. I
would hope we would put them on the front doors of City Hall before we would put them on our
beach building so it’s just a matter of priorities but currently they’re not required out at Lake
Ann. Number 3, fill in the 4 inch gap between the beach path and the ramp to the dock and also
install check rails at the ramp and the dock for safety. The 4 inch gap is a situation which was
caused by the water levels and the movement of that plastic. It pulls it away from the asphalt
path creating that gap so park maintenance will keep an eye on that particular situation so we
ensure that that’s checked on a routine basis. Currently there is a railing around the…near the
water. The rest of the ramp is flush to the ground and flush with the ground. Fourth is to lower
the pay phone. That was a subject of conversation and add Braille numbers. Jerry called our
communications provider and they indicate that our current pay phone is installed at 54 inches
which is compliant with ADA regulations. Jerry and I talked about perhaps as these children
were in a chair trying to use the phone they found it was too short for a child to use the phone but
it does meet our guidelines for ADA regulations. If we would like to have a Braille phone at that
location we would need to purchase that phone and install it through the provider. They talked
about the incline, you know the path that leads from the parking lot to the shelter and then down
to the beach. There’s really nothing we can do there with the degree of slope on that hill, but
users of the park do have another option of coming down the road access and then accessing the
beach, which is a grade which does meet the ADA requirements.
Stolar: And that currently exists?
Hoffman: It currently exists, yeah. It’s just an alternative path to take the other route. If you
were in a wheelchair and you were leaving the beach, you would not want to go up that steep
trail. You would take the access out to the road and up to the parking lot. Adding a handicap
swing would be a great addition to that playground. A couple of swings that the Cornerstone
Group showed the commission would work and we’d be certainly interested in working with
those folks. In touring around, park equipment vendors and what I find is that, or what they find
is that these successful quote, unquote swings are often the most popular swing seats on the
playground so we would have, staff would have no problem replacing one of the swings down
there with that type of swing.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: Thank you. Couple real quick questions for the swing. Although they had offered to
purchase one, is that something we could also put into a CIP plan or even out of, is there any
other way to.
Hoffman: We can purchase it this year with our 2005 project.
Stolar: Okay. I would like to do that certainly if they want to add some of those fancier things,
that’s fine but if we could do a basic one, I’d like to at least discuss that or have the commission
discuss that because I do agree with you. Again like I said, when I was out in Eden Prairie we
found that it was actually better for little kids, some of the, the one that had kind of the bucket
swing. Little kids like that better than the one where their feet hang through in the little circle.
So I think there’s multi purpose use for it, not just, and it’s easier obviously from the ADA
standpoint. I guess that was my only question. Any other questions? This looks very good and
the Cornerstone Group, Homeschool Group did a great job bringing this to our attention.
Hoffman: Okay. We’ll contact them regarding this and then talk to them about the swing
further.
Stolar: Okay, thank you.
PREPARATION OF PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REPORT TO CITY
COUNCIL.
Stolar: Todd brought to our attention the city code that talked about how we have to create by
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March 31 annual report to the, a written report to the City Council. And it’s supposed to
contain our recommendations for the ensuing year and I see included in the annual report for the
Planning Commission, they talk about a few bullet points on their accomplishments from the
previous year as well as some of their recommendations for 2005. So what I’d like to do is have
us step out of formal presentation mode here and just ask for us to come up with some bullet
points on what we accomplished this past year and then some ideas for what we want to
accomplish in the coming year. And Todd do we have the note, the ones you and I just kind of
talked about. I don’t know if it’d be better to start with that. From the accomplishments part but.
Hoffman: Do I have the notes?
Stolar: Yeah.
Hoffman: I don’t have them here. Something for the commission, for your general information.
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The March 31 date has changed. It used to be a September date but it changed with the
updating of the city code to reflect the terms of commissioners and Planning Commissioners and
Park and Rec Commissioners so that’s the reason for the change in the date of the report. And
when you think of this report, Glenn and I chatted about it briefly today, is that it doesn’t have to
be very complex. The council can understand, as you see there for the Planning Commission,
some major accomplishments and some points. Get the general idea of what they’re thinking.
Stolar: Okay. I guess I’ll just go around and maybe if you want to list one of each or.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Scharfenberg: Well I would say, you know the redo of the, was it 3 parks we did last summer?
With discussions, ongoing discussions that we’ve had regarding the dog park. The dedication of
City Center Park. There’s 3 good ones right there.
Stolar: I also think farmers market.
Hoffman: Holiday Inn Express trail and the Highway 41 trail.
Stolar: I also think Todd you and I talked about just I think some of the continuing programs
continuing to grow and be successful. The ones that Corey does. The big ones. I also think
some of the new ones. We’ve got the Miracles of Mitch Triathlon. And I think we should also
give some credence to some of the things that the staff did in relation to your inventory, tree
inventory activities. The rec center having the registration online. I guess Todd and Dale, I’ll
look to you guys…
Dillon: Tree or was it trail? You did a trail inventory.
Hoffman: And a tree.
Stolar: And a trail, yeah. The tree inventory’s still going.
Gregory: That’s ongoing right now, yeah.
Stolar: So it’s both. So yeah, I mean I just think the fact that the whole department has done a
lot to try and get as much inventory and automation involved, and what will they do I think is
important. That’s not a commission success though so I don’t want to, that is the one thing Todd
I’m not clear about is this, all of parks and rec or is it just the commission? But I think in general
we just continue to hear a lot of compliments about the facilities and the parks and such also.
Dillon: I guess you could word that, support staff in their continued endeavors of the quality
work that they perform for the City of Chanhassen.
Scharfenberg: Support and recognize.
Dillon: That’s right. That’s important.
Scharfenberg: That’s important.
Stolar: It is. I think so. How on this end of the table? Some thoughts for this year and if not,
you can jump into next year. Last year versus this year.
Hoffman: We’re still on last year.
Stolar: Okay, then why don’t you guys start with for this coming year.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Spizale: I would say the ball problem.
Scharfenberg: Just with this second presentation tonight, I mean I think one of the, you know
what will be a lot, more focus on trails and recreational activities south of 5 due to the residential
development that’s being planned and a new highway that’s going to, so it’s going to take a little
planning I think and we want to tee that up with the state.
Hoffman: You’re going to have, we’re going to go back to a time about 10 years ago. About 10
years ago we were in, even longer than that. 10 to 15, on a very rapid pace of development and
that’s going to repeat itself here in a little burst. 2005 burst for that MUSA area and then a 2010.
In 2010 we jump south of Highway 212 and we start developing and filling out that area, and
that will be even be more interesting than the land you’re currently working with right now
because there’s a lot of existing large lot and people are going to go whoa, whoa. Time to
subdivide. Time to split it up. Let’s get together and that’s even a more difficult and
cumbersome process than when you’re taking raw land and developing it. Plus you throw the
golf course in the mix.
Stolar: Right, which I might stick my neck out here in a second.
Scharfenberg: What about the golf course, is that at risk of getting developed or opportunity of
getting developed?
Hoffman: Oh sure it will, yeah. It will be at risk of development in the future. Or protect it,
depends on how you look at it. Depends on your perspective. As an opportunity or problem.
Some people might want to get rid of the course, I don’t know.
Atkins: If we had any new ones.
Stolar: I think Todd as we talked about, I’d like at the very least in 2005, the dog park issue kind
of a sub-bullet point. I think no matter what we have within our power to recommend off leash
areas. It may not be a dog park. It may not be, maybe part of a field on every other Tuesday.
Whatever it is. We ought to have something done this calendar year. Playgrounds, I think Steve
you had mentioned that it’s continuing. I’d like to explore what the heck we want to do with that
golf course. But it’s a big can of worms but I mean, it’s going to be past us soon to make some
efforts and then we might as well talk about, I also think we want to work closely on the regional
park policy and kind of continue our coordination with Carver, like the dog park brought us
together and then also with the Met Council. Just keep moving forward, and of course the City
Council. Because we have a lot of hard decisions that are coming soon just getting brought up in
this development area and we should start to map where we want to go with open space. I know
it’s in the plans but the next level down of detail.
Spizale: I had a question for Todd. Is it, back on the golf thing. Is the golf course a money
maker for the city?
Hoffman: Are they?
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Spizale: Yeah.
Hoffman: Are golf courses?
Spizale: Yeah.
Hoffman: Most cases they are.
Dillon: City of Richfield before they lost Rich Acres was a phenomenal money maker for that.
It was the most played course in the state.
Hoffman: Most cities use their income from their golf courses, once they’re paid for, to finance
other activities in the community, whether it’s park and rec or general fund activities.
Spizale: Something to think about.
Stolar: It is something. I’m not a huge golfer but it just seems logical since it’s there and we’re
going to be developing in that area. If we’re going to do something, probably 2005-2006 is
when we have to start the exploration.
Spizale: So that’d be a good one to put on.
Stolar: I’d like to but I mean this is going to be a commission report. I think it’s something to
explore in 2005.
Dillon: The sooner the better. It’s not going to get cheaper. I mean even if it’s within reach now
I suppose would be the question.
Stolar: Yeah, that is a question.
Scharfenberg: I guess in light of our meeting last month I would add as a bullet the field policy
or the CAA policy for scheduling, or not just the scheduling policy for our fields for the summer.
Hoffman: Field availability.
Stolar: Yeah, I’d say that because we have also the capacity side. Can we increase capacity
through lights, through other fields. Can we, those sort of things.
Hoffman: I can give you a brief update on that. The item was tabled here tonight. Their report
was in the day that this packet went out so I contacted, I talked to them about that before that.
And so that would not allow time for staff review. Staff has, we will meet next Thursday
morning on this topic. Discuss with our building official, finance director, city manager,
community development director and two different parks proposal. The proposal wasn’t
complete. It didn’t have a signature page. Didn’t have a list of organizational officers and some
of those things so we asked the athletic association for that. Once we meet and come up with
some of our ideas, then Todd Niles is coming in on Friday morning to talk about and answer
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
questions that we may have as a staff, and then we’ll bring back a report to the commission in
April.
Scharfenberg: Does that proposal include the revamping of the fields at Bluff Creek?
Hoffman: Revamping meaning?
Scharfenberg: Well remember they had, they wanted to add on that, or is it just strictly the
policy change?
Hoffman: Yeah, it’s the scoreboards, dugouts and signage.
Stolar: So I think that’s part of this discussion. It’s not just only the field availability but it’s
also working with the Chanhassen Athletic Association to enhance certain fields. Which doesn’t
really change the availability but.
Atkins: I would like to ask Todd if you think anything’s going to come of the District 112
middle school or high school proposal for Chanhassen in the next year.
Hoffman: Oh they’re, yeah I don’t know within the next year but they’re going to build a school
there. Either a middle school or high school so that will obviously provide an opportunity for the
community to get involved in that discussion and.
Atkins: That’s very important.
Scharfenberg: Don’t they, I mean in light of their, I mean the numbers have come in now in
terms of the demographics and I thought once those came in they were kind of committed to
fairly soon making a decision as to whether it was going to be a high school or middle school.
Hoffman: I don’t know the dates on that and I have not heard that they’ve made that decision.
Stolar: Can we add that to, we talked a little bit about partnership to the City Council, and let’s
add the school districts 112 and 276. 112 especially because of the. …anything to add? Okay.
Hoffman: I’ve got the 2005 would be the dog park, or off leash areas. The 2005 MUSA focus.
The playground projects. We call it the 2005 playground projects and successful completion of
those. We can use commission support, I know Glenn is serving on one of the neighborhood
committees. Met with Rice Marsh Lake, Chanhassen Hills. Chanhassen Hills is coming back on
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Thursday the 31. As these neighborhoods branch out and start to do their neighborhood installs,
if you’re close to one of these neighborhoods, feel free to make contact. You know volunteer to
show up on the day of their installation. It’d actually be a couple of days so you can show up on
one day. Show some support. Be happy, the commission that would go a long ways with these.
I think 4 of the neighborhoods are going to choose a neighborhood install where they work with
their neighbors and the manufacturer’s rep and then some folks from our park maintenance
division. And people, representatives of the city show up and say hey, great job. Glad you’re
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
doing this. That goes a long ways so I’ll keep those schedules in front of you so you can have
that.
Stolar: I think that’d be great if we can do that. In fact in my discussion with the City Council,
that was the other thing that they might show up to a couple of them too. I think it just would be
great. The excitement, have any of you been to any of those meetings yet? With the
neighborhoods. I mean Todd you can add your thoughts on it but the excitement, it really
generates a lot of interest and excitement for them.
Kelly: Are there any neighborhoods scheduled for equipment that don’t have a committee for it
yet or are they all?
Hoffman: No, they’ve all formed. The only one, Chanhassen, or excuse me, Lake Susan
Community Park. We’re going to have some pre-design meetings with the commission and
some manufacturer’s reps. Get some ideas generating from you. We may have an architect in
here to talk about that. That’s going to be a more involved program. Then they’ll go away and
then they’ll come back. Probably 3 of them with designs. Commission will select one of those
designs for Lake Susan Park. Then we will take that as the spec or the specification for that
project and then bid it. Anything over $50,000 we have to bid. With the Lake Susan project it
will be well over $50,000 so that’s the process we take there. The rest are all up and running as
committees, with the exception of Chan Hills, they’re a little bit behind. Their group wasn’t
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quite as flushed out but they’re coming back in on the 31. Moving on to golf course discussion.
The Met Council and other, really the Met Council, school site partnerships, any of those type of
partnerships working with the Met Council and the open space policy and then the field policy
with CAA and field, general conversation on field availability within the city. That’s what we
have so far for 2005. So you started out slow but you see you’re building your work into here.
Stolar: Okay, any others? Will you be able to have that sent out to us e-mail wise and then we’ll
look at it and see if there’s anything else and then you and I talk about if it needs crafting for us.
I’ll be on vacation next week but I have 100% e-mail access. At the grandparents with the kids.
They can take the kids, I’ll go on the computer. That’s fine. One thing though I did notice the
planning council had a working session for their development of these. I don’t know if it was
prior to their meeting but maybe next year we consider meeting an hour earlier. Half hour
earlier, whatever and just go through it as a working session. With staff invited too because I
think you guy’s input would be welcome.
Hoffman: Absolutely. Good idea.
Stolar: Any other questions on that? Thank you all for your input.
RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS:
2005 EASTER EGG CANDY HUNT.
Hoen: Thank you.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: Haven’t seen you in a few meetings.
Hoen: It’s been a while, I know. Thank you Chair Stolar, members of the commission. As you
probably know the Easter Egg Candy Hunt is going to be held this Saturday out at the
Chanhassen Recreation Center. The event will include children’s musical entertainment by the
Splatter’s Sisters. They performed the last several years. They do a great job. Kids have a blast.
They change out the show each year. Try and get the kids involved with their performance so
it’s a lot of fun for the kids. The coloring contest, which is ages 4 to 12, those flyers have been
delivered to the schools. Some of those entries have already come back in. Some really good
ones have come in too. Then the event will conclude with the Easter Egg Candy Hunt, which
will probably have to be held indoors this year since Easter’s so early. It’s going to be a little bit
snowy outside yet so. On kind of a side note, I am looking for a few volunteers yet so if
anybody’s interested let me know. Does anybody have any questions about the party?
Atkins: Is there one time you’re looking for volunteers?
Hoen: I will need volunteers at 8:30 or so. And be working it until.
Atkins: Saturday?
Hoen: This Saturday, yeah. 8:30 til 11:30 maybe. 11:00.
Dillon: Corey, what kind of jobs…
Hoen: Yeah, I need help hanging up the coats on trees as they come in. Handing out prizes to
some of the winners. Handing out candy. So absolutely, they’d be in the public eye.
Hoffman: Kids are some of the best workers.
Hoen: Typically we get an unlimited supply from the Key Club but they’re in spring break this
week so they’re kind of coming up a little bit short handed right now so, so if I could find a few
more that would definitely help.
Stolar: Thank you.
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APPROVAL OF 2005 4 OF JULY CELEBRATION BAND CONTRACT.
Hoen: Thanks once again. As you each probably know, Casablanca Orchestra or CBO
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performed at last year’s 4 of July celebration. Actually they’ve performed the last several
years. Do a great job. Get the crowd involved. Everybody has a good time. As most of you
have probably witnessed. The city was very pleased with their performance. Community overall
I think’s been very pleased with their performance. Kind of become the talk of the town.
Everybody expects them back year after year. They definitely do a great job. And I have briefly
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spoken with them. Have them on hold for our July 3 street dance for this year. It is staff’s
recommendation that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend approval to City Council
for the contract for CBO in the amount of $4,900. The performance will take place on Sunday,
32
Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
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July 3 from 7:00 to 11:00 p.m. at City Center Park. Cost of entertainment has been included in
Fund 1600. And I have also included a copy of the contract for you to look over.
Stolar: Corey, do you remember offhand what the last couple year’s prices have been? I know it
took a jump a couple years ago.
Hoen: Last year, or last couple years it’s been $4,500.
Stolar: Okay. And before then it was a little bit.
Hoen: It’s been $4,500 for probably the last 2 or 3 years with them, and before that I think they
were at about $4,200.
Hoffman: And in their early days about $2,500. They’ve been around for a long time.
Stolar: They can’t make this a retrospective... Questions?
Spizale: I have one question about this Hoffman Talent Agency. I think I mention it every year.
Hoffman: Same spelling.
Spizale: Very suspect.
Stolar: That’s why the price goes up every year.
Spizale: I think everybody looks forward to that band. They’re one of the big attractions we
have and I think people would be disappointed if they don’t show up.
Hoffman: Well if you go somewhere else, you’d better get a good one.
Hoen: For 10 band members I think or so, I think that’s fairly reasonable and they’re spreading
that out over 10 people. And the crew. They had 2 new people I think last year.
Stolar: Okay. Alright, do we have a motion? To approve the recommendation.
Murphy: Motion to approve the recommendation.
Spizale: I’ll second.
Murphy moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends
the City Council approve the contract for CBO in the amount of $4,900 for their
performance on Sunday, July 3, 2005. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
SELF-SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: 3 ON 3 SPRING BASKETBALL LEAGUE.
Hoen: Thank you Chair Stolar, members of the commission. Adult 3 on 3 basketball league
began yesterday at the Chanhassen Recreation Center. The league has, that’s a typo. We have
actually 8 teams which are playing in, which is up 2 from last year. I believe we had 6 last year.
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The 8 team league will play in one division and we’ll play regular season games until May 9.
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Post season tournament has been scheduled on May 16 and 23 with a single elimination and
consolation bracket. It’s a great league. I know teams tend to come back year after year. Have a
lot of fun with it so looking forward to another great season I guess.
Stolar: Okay. Any questions? Okay.
RECREATION CENTER REPORT.
Stolar: We now have in front of us the rec center report. Todd, are you covering that?
Hoffman: Since both Jerry and Susan are enjoying a vacation at Disney World, Corey and I will
support the staff reports for them. Chanhassen Recreation Center is, summer close dates. The
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20 to the 5 and that’s been extended over time and we’ve not taken any negative public
comment from it. For budgetary reasons it’s kind of the end of the summer. Just before the kids
go back to school and so we’re closed to save some money and to do some in-house
maintenance. It used to be closed for a few years, up to a week and now it’s been extended. We
mentioned our RECNET. Our registrations are currently about 15% online. We hope to, that
service to increase over time. We’re purchasing two elliptical trainers. They’re set to be
delivered while Susan’s on vacation. The space has been made for the trainers in the room and
once they’re delivered they’ll be put on line. Susan’s currently taking applications, which is a
rarity. Her staff has been very consistent over the past oh 4 to 6 years. But we’re looking to add
a position at the front desk on some evenings and weekend shifts and also to add a fitness
instructor or two. And the dance program, Dance for Fun competition competed in the
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Starbound National Talent Competition at River Center on March 7. They received 3 awards
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and then the big recital held at the Eden Prairie Performing Arts Center on May 7. The theme
is Dance Across America and even if you don’t do dance, know anything about dance, it’s an
amazing event to participate in. I don’t know, I’ve gone as a judge. Who else has gone as a
judge? If you ever want to be a judge, Corey’s been a judge. Susan will accept your self
nomination as a participate and you can be a judge. It’s not a terrible plight to be a judge but just
a tremendous show of talent for that program so if you can show your support for Susan, please
volunteer for that. It’s our biggest program. Recreation program. Dance.
Stolar: Great. Thank you.
Kelly: Ask for questions? Those Elliptical trainers, are they the same type as you have right
now? The…Fitness or is it a different type of machine?
Hoffman: I don’t recall the manufacturer. There was, I know the proposals were 3 different
providers. I just don’t recall which one it is.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Spizale: I’ve gone one too. How did a basketball backboard get tipped?
Hoffman: It’s the second one in about a year and a half and typically it’s when the athletic
association lower their hoops down to a shorter level and then the teenage kids get a good view
of that and if there’s nobody in the gym, then they start inappropriate activities. You don’t break
those just by making a lay up and so they’re broken by youths who are there and hanging on the
rims. We’ll be addressing that. We need to stop paying for basketball backboards so it’s an
issue of once the athletic associations are done with that age group, they need to raise them back
up. It becomes much more difficult to damage them at that height.
PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE.
Gregory: I don’t mind sitting here listening. To get started I’d like to hand out one more report
pertaining to the skating rinks. I apologize for not getting it in with the report. This year skating
thth
season and that, we started on December 24 and we made it until February 14. We did have
some bad weather in there where we lost a week of skating season and that and it did hurt us in
that time. We only ended up with 46 days of skating season this year and that compared to last
year we had 50. The report that I handed out to you just now is basically the expenses that it cost
us to take and run a skating rink for this year. You can see we have a total of 22, or a little over
$22,000. $22,800 for the time we were open and that and it breaks down to a cost of about $496
a day to maintain the rinks that we do. If you compare that to last year’s, the next page last
year’s, we only were at about 18. Little over $18,367. The week that we were shut down is what
really hurt us in this instance because we had warm weather. The rinks really got bad. It got
cold. The decision was made to let’s get them back up. We turned around and we started
flooding. We flooded nights. We put in a lot of time to get them up and running again and we
made a week out of it and so it really was a lot of money spent just for the week. But the
decision was made. We were hoping we were going to get a little more time out of it than that
so. That kind of gives you a look of what we actually do spend on these rinks on a year. I also
did include one other, the skating rink open and closure dates for you. That dates back to 1982.
It gives you an idea of when we opened. When we closed. Back in the 80’s and that we had no
trouble at all. It seemed like the winter started out colder. We were able to get rinks early and
we were able to stay open longer. We’d get into February and that with no problem. As the
years have come along and that, it seems like we’re having a tough time getting them open just
for Christmas break now every once in a while so the seasons are definitely changing somewhat.
Also our tree inventory that we talked about a little bit about before and that. It’s moving along
slowly. We are, have all the parks. We have all the trees in our play areas or our mini parks and
that in the system right now. We did have one individual go out, he actually had an operation
this winter so he couldn’t do anything for a while so we put him up putting trees in and after
putting the species of the trees and so we’ve got most of that done in the system. The only thing
we have to wait now until is the summer, until the trees leaf out and we can see the condition of
the trees. If there’s any real problems with any of them, we’ll be going around and putting that
into the trees and once we’ve got the condition in this program, we will be in pretty good shape.
We’ll have a real good inventory of all our trees systems in all the city parks. Our Dutch elm
disease. I talked about that a little bit. We actually went out marked all of our trees that we
could find this fall. We had, when I put the report out we had 150 trees that we had cut down at
that time. We’re up over 200 right now. Anything from about this big on up to the larger and
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
that of Dutch elm disease are included in this 200. They were, they’ve all been removed and
disposed of properly. We have also in this trimming system and that, we have gone through just
about all of our parks through our wooded areas. Have really trimmed them back so we can
plow and we don’t have to worry about any hanging branches or anything that way anymore.
Got rid of any major dead trees. So right now we should have our trails and parks should be in
pretty decent, as far as any dead and dying trees. We did do all of our wood duck houses.
We’ve got those all checked. We did have some that we had to repair. We had some that got
stolen for some reason. Somebody wants our wood duck houses.
Hoffman: For the cabin.
Gregory: Yeah, for the cabin. This year’s report showed a 10% increase over last year’s. This
report also goes back several years. Goes back to 1994. We’ve had some real good years.
We’ve been up in the 70’s and 60’s, 80’s. Last year we were up in the, or down to 43 and now
we’re back going the other direction so it seems to be a real swing and that and it’s not a real
consistent. We can drop 10-15 percent and go up that much in a year and that so, but it is
definitely working out very good. The Men’s Club were very happy with the report and that.
They were the ones that built our wood duck houses for us so, they’re very happy to see that they
are getting used.
Hoffman: The Senior Men’s.
Gregory: The Senior Men, correct. This year Lake Susan, we did not have enough snow. We
had no problem with the oxygen. Actually the oxygen didn’t go down hardly at all in Lake
Susan this year. We were really surprised. We test it on a weekly basis down there through the
winters. There was absolutely no reason to do any aeration in that lake this year so that turned
out real well. The only other problem we’ve been experiencing this year, we had some ATV
problems. Snowmobile problems going across some of our parks. Lake Ann, Lotus Lake, out on
Carver Beach. We’ve got some 4 wheelers and snowmobiles that are crossing, going up and
down our hills and really tearing them up. We went out there. We put rocks out and tried to
block everything up and after this last snow and that, we’ve still got 4 wheelers and they’re just
finding ways to get through there. We do know…what more can we do but put rocks in their
way and that and they go around it anymore. We’re trying to keep them out. So that will happen
probably this weekend. I had a long talk to the police on that situation.
Hoffman: Same location in Carver Beach?
Gregory: Same location, Carver Beach.
Hoffman: They didn’t get the message.
Gregory: No. No, they definitely didn’t. I don’t know what’s happening there. Also Todd
mentioned about the tables. We do, we have completed those. We’ve got 20 tables that we’ve
converted over to handicap accessible tables and that and they are out in the parks already. We
will probably be doing a few more. Our goal is that we’re going to have, you know we only got
1 or 2 tables in a park. At least one of them’s always going to be a handicap one in our
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
neighborhood parks and that. So that project’s coming along real well. And that’s pretty much
takes care of everything that I can think of at this time. If anybody have any questions?
Spizale: I’ve got one. The wood duck program, I think it’s a great program. How did that get
started? Was that a useful thing for the city to do? Is this quite unusual for.
Hoffman: It’s a partnership between the Men’s Club. Men’s Club wanted a project and so we
started putting up these wood duck houses and it’s just a nice partnership and a good program for
our staff so. We have a lot of natural areas in the park. People routinely call us, they want to put
wood duck houses, blue bird houses, those type of things so we have a program for each of
those. Wood ducks and blue birds.
Gregory: We also have blue bird houses and that that the Men’s Club has made for us. We have
those out in Lake Ann and places and that, but somebody else does the cleaning and taking care
of those so I really don’t have a report from them on that so, if they’re being used.
Hoffman: When we get one we put it in the packet. It’s a gentleman, a couple different people.
Now there’s a retired couple out in Pulte Homes, kind of re-adopted. The Men’s Club dropped it
out at Lake Ann so this gentleman’s picked it up.
Stolar: Other questions. Thank you again. Great job as always.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Stolar: Any reports? Is it too early for Dave Huffman stuff?
Kelly: I saw the person who runs it in Target. He said the route may have to change this year
and I can’t remember why but it’s either something at Lake Ann or something.
Hoffman: Pedestrian bridge construction.
Kelly: Oh okay.
Hoffman: Water treatment plant.
Kelly: That’s what it was, so it may eliminate the need for buses if they do a looped course as
opposed to a point to point.
Hoffman: Right now from what I know, the preferred new course would start and end at City
Center Park. Right near the plaza.
Kelly: Okay. And they’d still be involved even though it wouldn’t be in their back yard
anymore.
Hoffman: Eventually that was going to have to change anyway with development of that site
over there. It was getting to be an issue with traffic flow and conflicts.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Kelly: Do you know what the route they were thinking about from City Center?
Hoffman: I think it goes, I know portions of it. North on Kerber and then Frontier and then back
around and down and back to City Center.
Stolar: Along the lines of Dave Huffman, is there any chance we would have a request come to
us for let’s say Miracles of Mitch Triathlon to serve on their planning committee or any of that?
Is that something we want more formalized? I was also thinking the farmers market.
Hoffman: To?
Stolar: Tom’s always been involved in the Dave Huffman.
Hoffman: That’s because that’s our event.
Stolar: That’s our event, okay.
Hoffman: So if you want to serve as ambassadors to them, you’d have to get on their boards as
an independent.
Stolar: Alright, great. Thanks. I know we’re running late here. We’ve got the Rotary and then
this, I’m going to hand out a quick sheet just for some people to see the regional. I didn’t print
off, I can send you an e-mail of the summary. In fact did I send the PDF file to you?
Hoffman: Yes.
Stolar: Okay. And then I rushed out and forgot to print these earlier but there’s really, the
Carver, or excuse me, the Met Council has a 2030 regional parks policy plan that they’ve put
together and opened up for public discussion. They’re having a formal hearing in April. I’ll
th
attend the hearing as it stands now. I’ll be able to attend still. It’s April 6. And basically what
it is, they identified areas they think there can be improvements. I don’t know Todd if we want
to show that picture I gave you that had the color one. The one that’s not all. And this is all
available on the web site that Todd had sent out. You can download. I downloaded the whole
policy plan. They actually had this at the information session for us, but basically they sit there
and they recommend here are things we think you could do to expand open space, given the
development going on in the next 25 years. And then also they seek funding and secure some
funding but the actual determination of what gets done goes down to the individual park entities
so for us it’d be the Carver County Park entity actually decides, and if you look there, there are 3,
4 things occurring in Carver. Here in Carver County. One of which is in Chan which is if and
when the Seminary Fen situation gets settled, the thought that we would expand the boundaries
of the LRT. The trail down there as part of their, that whole develop, incorporation of the
seminary fen as a natural area. So that was really the only thing that affected us and I’ll pass this
around and again I’ll send this out. Did I send this to you Todd? So I can send it out to you
guys, but it seems to me this is just something that in general doesn’t affect Chan a lot. It affects
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Carver fairly much but it is something that I thought was interesting for us at least to attend the
meetings.
Hoffman: The fen’s very significant. It’s been a proposal on our agenda for many years,
working in concert with the DNR. With other groups. There’s a group formed, an existing
group that took it upon themselves, the Minnesota Valley group and actually between those
organizations they had $2.1 million assembled in state grants and other monies, but then the
property owners raised the price to $3.1 million and so the acquisition did not go through. The
state did not have the ability to raise their offer because of their restrictions based on the
appraisals that they had received for the $2.1 million value so that grant money most likely is
going to evaporate and so there are still committed people that want, continue to take a look at
the acquisition and preservation of the fen.
Stolar: And is that part of the Environmental Commission or this commission or joint? Is that
something we might want to talk to them about jointly looking at what we can do?
Hoffman: Sure.
Stolar: Going back to our 2005.
Hoffman: Something to add to your list.
Stolar: I think if we can get together with the Environmental Commission and just figure out, is
there a way we can do something. Todd and I talked a little bit about it, because I think it’s been
almost 2 years now since that $3.1 million was out there so, to Kevin’s point. He knows what
it’s going to be now. I mean that was 2 years ago it was $3.1. I’m sure it’s going to be higher,
but I think it’s something that if you read through, and then unfortunately their materials don’t go
too detailed on it but if you do, look up on the web. I pulled up the Minnesota Public Radio
story on the fen and it’s very interesting from October, 2002 and you can play it if you have a
fast enough speed on your computer. You can actually play the story while, they also have the
text there. That’d be something I’d love to see us also try to work with the Environmental
Commission. See what we can do. How it relates to the 2030 Regional Parks Policy Plan is,
once that goes through, can we expand the trail. And expand the usage there. Some of the other
Carver things were interesting.
Hoffman: What’s a fen?
Scharfenberg: Yeah.
Stolar: Fen is, I read this article. Correct me if I’m wrong. It is an area where the water bubbles
up and it is not oxygenated but it contains other minerals and that bubble up to the surface
because of those other minerals.
Hoffman: Yeah, called calcareous fen and it’s a unique wetland system. This wetland, if you get
a chance to get down to the fen, it’s not a depression. It’s an elevated wetland and so the
calcareous water bubbles up out of this vegetation and creates just an extremely interesting and
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
unique set of habitat, flora fauna, wildlife and so if you, I’ve been on a couple of tours where you
have people that are, they’re very knowledgeable about the plant life and the other things going
on in the fen and it’s absolutely astounding. If you remember the Savage acquisition at all, if
you heard about that through a road development there, they protected a fen and the fens, it’s
survived many threats in the past. The railroad bed went through it twice and the water is
coming down out of that hillside then coming up out of the ground and that railroad cut it off on
two different occasions but it still comes through there. There’s open water throughout the entire
year. The water flows throughout the entire year. There’s watercress. It’s just a very unique
and interesting place. There’s a trout stream on the property.
Stolar: Yeah, that was the other part. Yeah, it’s the only trout stream in Carver County.
Hoffman: Yeah.
Stolar: That brook trout can still.
Hoffman: Survive and breed in, the brook trout. Interesting.
Dillon: Where is this place? It’s alright to go see it?
Hoffman: Highway 212. Sandwiched right between Highway 212 and so you go down 101 to
the 212. Take a right and then as you enter Chaska. Do you remember the old building, what
did they call the building? Yeah, the seminary building. Hell house some people called it, and
that burned down and now it’s just a pile of rubble there and it’s sandwiched between 212 and
then the LRT. The best way to see it is to park on Bluff Creek Drive. Park on Bluff Creek Drive
at the Three Rivers trail headquarters. Trail parking lot. And then head west walking on the trail
and you’ll walk on top of a beautifully elevated trail that the city, we actually manage that
component of it, and then you can look out over the fen.
Kelly: We took that, at least Jack and I took that a few years ago. Would we be able to have
another field tour this summer.
Hoffman: Sure. We’ll get one of the specialists out here and we’ll all go down there.
Spizale: Of course we were new members…
Stolar: The other interesting thing about this regional policy parks plan is that it’s all well and
good and they can secure the funding but it’s up to the land owners to sell and when they sell so
those although it’s listed out at 2030, the pace and actual prices you pay, and apparently, I mean
I went to this in Burnsville because I couldn’t make, tonight was the Plymouth one which is why
I couldn’t make the Plymouth one so I went to the one in Burnsville, and I mean the Scott
County people there are like, as you sit here these prices are going up. You’re not going to get
these things, you’ve got to be careful, so there were some questions on that but overall it’s, just
even skimming through it, I didn’t read through the whole 120 page thing but skimming through
it and they do have charts though, if you look towards the end and again you can download these.
They talk about each of the different recommendations so I think the other close one is in
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Waconia. They want to get that, it’s called Coney Island. They want to add that to the park, so it
was interesting.
Hoffman: Coney Island and then this is the Miller Lake. And then the bluff area, preservation of
some of the Minnesota bluff and then this is the fen. So if you look at all the dots and
highlighted areas, Carver County is doing very well as far as, one of two ways to look at it. It’s
either doing poorly because it has so much attention being paid to it now, or we’re in a good
position for future acquisition. Depends on which way you want to look at it.
Stolar: And then actually the two dots in Carver County, the two biggest dots there, what they
call completing the system is we don’t need this by 2030. We need it after 2030 but it makes,
because of prices and all, it makes more sense to acquire that land if possible before 2030. So
it’s not needed for the 2030 projections.
Hoffman: Similar to Carver Park in Victoria which was purchased in the 60’s. But try to buy
that today. Thanks Dale.
Stolar: Thanks. Last point is the Rotary Club. Todd if you want to.
Hoffman: Sure. We received a mailing from the Chanhassen Rotary Club. They’re starting a
th
new event in April. It’s call the Tulip Gala April 30. It’s a Saturday night at the Arboretum.
As a part of that annual event they’re going to award a Distinguished Service Award. One
person each year in distinguished service of themself in the community. You have 3
nominations before you. Al Klingelhutz, Ladd Conrad and Vernelle Clayton, and they’re asking
you to vote for 1. You’re 1 of probably 50 or 60 organizations in the city that will vote for these
individuals.
Stolar: And City Council has asked if we could submit a vote or?
Hoffman: The City Council will submit their own vote I think. The Planning Commission will
submit a vote. So you’re submitting one vote on behalf of the commission.
Stolar: Do you guys want to vote on it now? Can we do it virtually? Do we have to do it, I
guess we’ve got to do it as public record. Okay, any thoughts on this?
Atkins: I had some thoughts on it.
Stolar: Please.
Atkins: I know all 3 of the candidates. I would recommend Ladd Conrad. He’s volunteered on
the Planning Commission for years and years. Al Klingelhutz has received a lot of credit for his
public service over the many, many years. The much public service that he has put in so I don’t
think he needs the recognition that badly. And Vernelle is, granted she does a lot but I don’t
know that it’s all, totally volunteer. So that’s what I have to say. Anybody else have any other
opinions.
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Park and Rec Commission – March 22, 2005
Stolar: Any thoughts?
Dillon: I vote that we adopt Paula’s recommendation.
Hoffman: You’ll see this once a year.
Stolar: Was that a formal motion?
Dillon: It is.
Stolar: Do I have a second?
Scharfenberg: I second.
Dillon moved, Scharfenberg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission nominate
Ladd Conrad for the 2005 Distinguished Service Award. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
Hoffman: Mark the spot, put it in the mail.
Stolar: Do I have a motion for adjournment?
Kelly moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission adjourn their
meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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