CC Minutes 10-22-18Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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Mayor Laufenburger: That motion carries 5-0. Thank you Mr. Sticha. And by the way would
you mind just as a follow up, before you go to the auditor could you just send a note to the
council indicating how many accounts and the dollar value, what was paid between now and
when you send it to the Auditor just as a point of record. Thank you very much.
GLENDALE DRIVE SUBDIVISION REQUEST: APPROVE PRELIMINARY PLAT
FOR 5 LOTS AND A VARIANCE FOR A 50 FOOT WIDE PUBLIC STREET.
Mayor Laufenburger: To whom does this belong?
Kate Aanenson: I will start and then.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright Ms. Aanenson nice to have you here this evening.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you, and then the City Engineer will take over the bulk of it.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: So this application, when the applicant owner Lake West Development, Perry
Ryan, this item did appear before the Planning Commission at 2 meetings and I’ll go into that in
a little bit more detail but I also just wanted to let the Planning Commission, I mean the City
Council know that we’re, for the application deadline is the 27th of October so we’re close to the
120 days.
Mayor Laufenburger: When you say the application, you mean the action deadline?
Kate Aanenson: Correct, action deadline yes so. With that there were two requests for this
subdivision and a variance. This item, the summary of this item is that it’s a request for 2.14
acres to be divided into 5 lots and the property is located just to the west of Minnewashta
Parkway. There’s sewer and water available. There’s a few little nuances that I’ll spend some
time on and then the City Engineer will talk more specifically about those because most of the
issues are regarding street improvements and an additional stormwater. So this item first
appeared before the Planning Commission on August 7th. At that meeting the staff felt that there
was multiple concerns and was felt like they needed to be addressed before this application went
forward and that’s again adding to the time line there. One of the things that we did ask the
applicant to do is work with the property owners to the south. There’s been little movement in
that direction and then in addition to that the stormwater. So the stormwater I’ll let the
engineering go through that in a little bit more detail but some of those changes were made even
as late as last Friday. So it did reappear on October 2nd. At that time the staff had recommended
again approval with some variances. It did include in your cover memo that there was a question
from the neighboring property to the south regarding the extension of the street and that it was
the interpretation of hardship and practical difficulties. There’s a different standard if you look
at your Findings of Fact for a subdivision. There’s different application of hardship in our city
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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code so hardship is the application here and the variance that was requested on this was for right-
of-way for the street and we had recommended 50 foot of right-of-way which is typical in that
area so we thought putting 60 foot in would be an undue hardship and that was our interpretation.
Some of the neighbors to the south had a different opinion on that. That opinion also was
reiterated by the City Attorney and that was included in your cover memo on that.
Mayor Laufenburger: So the City is, I want to make sure I say this correctly. The City’s
recommendation is to accept a 50 foot right-of-way which would be a variance from the 60 foot
right-of-way.
Kate Aanenson: Correct. Under the.
Mayor Laufenburger: Is that correct?
Kate Aanenson: Under the subdivision regulations the test then would be hardship.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Alright.
Kate Aanenson: And there was a little bit of difference of opinion on that so just again some of
the background issues. Again the subject site is this property here. Again there’s two properties
to the south. The biggest issue for the staff as I said from the beginning is to, how do we
incorporate those two parcels. It’s the City’s policy that we make sure that we don’t develop one
piece of property to the detriment of another piece of property. I’ll let the City Engineer go
through some of the different layouts in a minute and the issues there but this property has a little
bit of a nuance here in that there’s a flag that comes across here and then there’s a city owned
property here. We do, are recommending that that property. Excuse me, that that property be
incorporated into the subdivision. There’s a little piece to the south here that we recommend go
to this lot but that is a city owned property that we’d like to see incorporated into the subdivision.
This other piece up here, the flag would then be creating an outlot. The property is within the
shoreland district. This is the area shaded in green so that’s, represents the lot size and then also
the height of buildings that can be within that area. So this again shows that property here. The
city owned property and then this property, this portion of that city owned property makes the
most sense to go to 3931 Country Oaks Drive and not this parcel because it creates a, just a little
interesting nub there so we think it needs, should be serviced to the south. There are some
challenging grades to the property and this comes into play when you look at how the property is
to be served by stormwater. Again looking at all the properties together is what we do is saying
what’s the best way to serve stormwater. I think when this originally came in there was rain
gardens in the back of all those lots and we felt like that wouldn’t be the best way to serve all
those properties as properties change over. Different homeowners not managing those and
accommodating sufficient stormwater so that I know the developer has worked on making those
changes. One of the other issues that we look at when a subdivision comes in is where is the
park service area. So there is Roundhouse Park that’s being serviced, that will be serviced by
this area and then also there is the trail that would get you down there. I know questions have
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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arose regarding access to the beachlot. That’s a separate issue from the city as how they would
manage is between the HOA and the existing underlying property owner that they would resolve
that so we did not address that in our staff report. Now I’ll turn it over to the City Engineer
regarding the right-of-way and the stormwater issues.
Paul Oehme: Thank you Ms. Aanenson. City Council members. So just wanted to touch a little
bit, Ms. Aanenson talked about the plat and the property on the west side. On the east side on
the plat we’re a little, we’d like to clean up the right-of-way line here a little bit. It wasn’t clear
to us on the plat exactly comparing the plat which is on the, the proposed plat is on the right hand
side and the GIS from Carver County is on the left hand side. Those don’t match up so we’re
trying to would like to make sure that that’s cleaned up so that the right-of-way is outside of our
trail and in the right-of-way along Minnewashta Parkway.
Mayor Laufenburger: Are you asking council for that action tonight or not?
Paul Oehme: It’s one of the conditions.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright.
Paul Oehme: The staff report yep.
Kate Aanenson: Again to be clear so this is preliminary plat. When this comes back for final
plat it would have to have that resolved.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right.
Paul Oehme: That and then so again like Ms. Aanenson had talked about access and these fill in
developments are very challenging especially when we have the grades like we do on this parcel.
This is just again an overlay of the area. Stratford Ridge was developed in I think 1988. The
plat here does show that the right-of-way abuts the property to the north which typically
indicates that there was some thought about extending that road out in the future. You know
back in ’88 there were other developments that were built with temporary cul-de-sacs as well and
I think this was one of them that was looked at. Back in ’88 there were some preliminary layouts
of this area. How things potentially could develop and when Stratford Ridge and some of the
other areas in this area were developed and I’ll show you those in a minute. This is one of the
options that the council at that time looked at for connecting neighborhoods and for orderly
development of this area. Trying to tie all those loose ends together so we’re not having long
dead ends and roads that basically go nowhere. That’s one option. The other option that is more
follows what’s out there today is this Option B which again does show that the Stratford Ridge
Road would go up to Glendale Road here but you know we’re flexible in terms of how this area
is, can be developed, the 3 lots but we just want to make sure that we’re planning for future
development to the properties to the south of the property in question right now. Again as Ms.
Aanenson talked about the grades are very challenging. Again the grades fall mainly off to the
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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south with a low point to the properties down to the south of the proposed development. There’s
some steeper grades to the north of Stratford Ridge which makes any roadway extension in this
area a little bit more challenging. This is a ghost plat that the developer had looked at. We asked
the developer to look at how potentially these two lots to the south would develop. You know
this is a concept. Again it would be challenging I think to make this layout to the south work just
because of the grades that we know of. A lot of fill potentially would have to go in there. And
then also from a property owner perspective we’ve heard from property owners to the south that
you know they’d prefer not to extend the road in this manner with future development. So again
you know we’re, Ms. Aanenson had talked about we’re trying to always looking out for the
future. Look at you know how to service future parcels down the road. You know looking at the
topography. The drainage. The traffic. Just trying to look at where services, city service would
be. How to service these parcels in the future and then also just arranging the, arrangement of
the streets for proposed subdivisions so they don’t cause undue hardship to adjacent property
owners and this is both of these sections are in the subdivision ordinance so this is again relates
to the property owners to the south of the property in question. One of the items that was
discussed at the Planning Commission was the length of a cul-de-sac. So one of the, again the
developer had proposed extending Stratford Ridge farther to the north to service the two
properties. You know the definition of a cul-de-sac, the City’s interpretation of that is where
there’s more than one ingress and egress basically so a dead end or a cul-de-sac is basically a
dead end street. A no outlet street is a street that has one way in and one way out but it has
another finger off to the side so I think our definition is based upon our, our definition is based
upon you know emergency vehicles. You know getting in and getting out of these, trying to
reduce the amount of one way in and one way out access points for roadways just from
emergency perspective. For police and fire. It’s also better for just our regular services to the
neighbors as well.
Kate Aanenson: If I may Paul.
Paul Oehme: Yep.
Kate Aanenson: The City Attorney did receive a letter from the applicant’s attorney giving their
interpretation of how we should interpretate our code so that’s part of the record so.
Mayor Laufenburger: And has our attorney weighed in on that?
Roger Knutson: I concur with the staff’s interpretation of it.
Mayor Laufenburger: So, and the staff’s interpretation is that the beginning of a cul-de-sac
begins at Minnewashta as opposed to the corner of Stratford and.
Roger Knutson: Correct.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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Mayor Laufenburger: Alright.
Paul Oehme: So again it’s for the perspective of travel time. Response to emergency routes.
The nearest access points so basically the access point, you have two access points that you’d
have you know north and south of Minnewashta instead of you know up here you’re just, you’re
limited if there’d be an accident over here or some other blockage of road and you don’t have
another access point so that’s why the code reads as 800 foot length for a cul-de-sac road. And
again so if a cul-de-sac would be extended up a little farther it would be longer than 800 feet.
We’re estimating I don’t know 1,100 feet or something so it would be a variance to extend that
road in the future. So these are conceptual layouts of potentially how to service properties. The
properties to the south of the development in question. These were produced by the property
owner to the south and staff did look at other options as well too and have laid out a few options
so this layout does show a 60 foot wide road which you know staff is comfortable with a
variance down to 50 feet so that gives the developer a little bit more wiggle room to play with as
well but we are looking at a cul-de-sac and less than 800 feet. This alignment, this layout does
lend itself better to future development on these two parcels just because of the existing grades
that are out there today. It also gives us more opportunity to manage the stormwater on site.
Likewise again this another option for this is a 5 lot subdivision here and just kind of showing
illustratively the cul-de-sac layout as well.
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Oehme this is a concept from the, not from the property owner on the
top stripe but from the second stripe, is that correct?
Paul Oehme: Correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: And the property owner of the top stripe, Lake West, have they seen this?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: And have they commented on this at all? Well we’ll hear from them later.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah it’s their preference not to connect.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah we’ll hear from them later.
Kate Aanenson: Make the connection.
Mayor Laufenburger: And SWM means stormwater management right? That blue area.
Paul Oehme: Right.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. So you’re allowing for if water, if it were necessary to treat with an
excessive amount of water this is where it likely would go and this is where you need to be
prepared is that correct Vanessa?
Vanessa Strong: Yep that would take the entire development as shown.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Alright. Since the map was there I thought I’d ask that question.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor?
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Gerhardt.
Todd Gerhardt: It should be noted that the development to the north would need some additional
right-of-way from the property to the south which is the shaded area.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yep in order for those lot sizes to meet the shoreland overlay, okay.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Paul Oehme: So again so if there’s no road extended from the south off of Glendale Road and
the property owner to the, just north of Stratford Ridge doesn’t want to develop but this property
that’s in the middle wants to develop there are very limited options in terms of future
development and having that developer, or having that property owner develop to you know it’s
highest and best use so potentially there’d only be two lots that could be subdivided on that
parcel. There’d still be a driveway off of Minnewashta Parkway which staff would like to
eliminate and then access for Lot 2 here would be very problematic off of Country Oaks Drive as
well since the right-of-way is limited there as well. So at this time I’d like to turn this over to
Ms. Strong, the Water Resources Coordinator to talk about stormwater management.
Vanessa Strong: Thank you. You know every development we look at has to meet the same
basic requirements for regulating stormwater but every development is a little different
depending upon certain site constraints. For this particular development there were 5 kind of
highlight areas that we really focused our attention on and those were based upon the topography
of the site. How it grades from the north to the southeast and all directly onto the property to the
south. The geology of the site. You know the underlying soils and the very high water table.
The size of the project. How many lots are they trying to do and then the long term function and
maintenance. How are they going to take care of the stormwater for this type of development
and that was really how we were focusing our review to have a more thoughtful and responsible
stormwater management system that fits for the city and the developer and the community. So
I’m just going to touch on each of those. Originally the developer did come in with 5 small rain
gardens on the south side on the bottom of each of those lots. Staff was concerned that the
emergency overflows did not meet city code as well as how were they going to maintain each of
those. Staff had different discussions with the developer and on October 11th the developer did
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respond to staff’s comments and direction and came in with a pond on the southeast corner of
Lot 5 with a swale to capture the stormwater and direct it all into that area and that creates an
emergency overflow that does meet city code. There is one emergency overflow only. That
goes to the property directly to the south and staff still wants them to work with that property
owner to make sure that that route doesn’t impact their driveway but staff is more supportive of
this design. The applicant has said that they will provide the necessary stormwater management
report and other technical pieces to prove that this can work but at the moment staff is supportive
of this conceptual design at this time. You do not need to read all of this. I just wanted to
highlight some of the technical things that we need to look at when we talk about soils. The gist
of it is that in this area we have very highly erodible soils. We have a very high water table. We
have very poorly draining clay soils which creates runoff and rate control concerns which is why
we were so concerned about the impact to the property to the south. We really wanted to ensure
that as this development came in it did not create stormwater flooding erosion issues to the
properties to the south. Next. Operation and maintenance. This is an ongoing issue for all
stormwater in the city. Under our permit to the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency we do have
to make sure that all these developments have to have a way to ensure that they are being taken
care of to perform for the life of the device and that’s why we really focus on an operation and
maintenance plan that takes care of them permanently. There have been several issues in the city
where an operation and maintenance plan was maybe placed on one property owner and it has
created just so many concerns that we have moved to the concept of an HOA, and everybody
loves an HOA but in this case it allows them to create a funding mechanism in perpetuity to
provide to make sure that these are taken care of. Next. Placement of easements. Again these
are, this is a private stormwater pond. This is just like a private driveway or private parking lot.
It’s a private landscaping, well it’s a private stormwater device and so we just have to make sure
that they have the easements in place so that they don’t accidently take it out. A homeowner
comes in and that kind of thing so. Next. And then the last key piece is that there are several
jurisdictional agencies involved. The DNR was one of them. In this case Minnehaha Creek
Watershed District does have it’s own permitting process that they will need to go through and
so final approval and release of permits will depend upon their release of approval and permits as
well and those are the big key items that we looked at for stormwater.
Paul Oehme: Well I think that’s all that the staff has at this time.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah so just for the motion then, the staff’s recommending, what we had
recommended to the Planning Commission is that we provide access to the property to the south
so they are consistent with the city ordinances not having another additional access on a collector
road so that’s what we are recommending to the City Council. We believe that the lot lines can
be adjusted and with a 50 foot right-of-way picking up the extra property from the city that the 5
lots can potentially still be achieved so we are recommending the 2.4 acres with up to 5 lots and
then the outlot which is that remnant piece and then the variance for the 50 foot right-of-way and
Findings of Fact are in your staff report and those are based on the plans received August 28,
2018 so again that would be providing a public street to the south.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Ms. Aanenson would you do me a favor when you are, whoever
has access to it. Could you bring up the concept plan which shows the presence of a 50 foot
right-of-way. Can you, I think somebody, was it one from. There. Okay. So this is, this shows
a specific location but city staff is not suggesting that this has to be the precise location, is that
correct?
Paul Oehme: That’s correct. I mean we have some flexibility here.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. And so this is what came out of the Planning Commission is that
correct?
Kate Aanenson: The Planning Commission, again there was some ambiguity about the
interpretation of variance and that staff was wrong. There’s some ambiguity about the developer
saying we interpret the length of a cul-de-sac wrong so now I think we’ve got better legal
opinions on both of those but the Planning Commission didn’t require the stub to the south.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: So we’re going back to our original recommendation.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright. So as it stands right now staff is recommending to the City
Council to approve up to 5 lots on this property, this top stripe and included in that is a 50 foot
right-of-way location which to be determined later.
Kate Aanenson: That’s correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Now this does not require a public hearing is that correct Ms.
Aanenson?
Kate Aanenson: That’s correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay but I think that if the council may want to hear from both the
applicant and also from the adjoining property owners so let’s first begin with council members.
Do you have any questions of staff regarding what you, what’s been presented either in the
packet that you’ve had an opportunity to see or from, to staff based on what you’ve heard this
evening.
Councilwoman Ryan: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Laufenburger: Councilmember Ryan, go ahead.
Councilwoman Ryan: A follow up to your question.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah.
Councilwoman Ryan: So what is the staff recommendation? Are you recommending one of
these plans or just the 50 foot?
Kate Aanenson: We’re saying, if you look at what the applicant is proposing there’s no right-of-
way going to the south.
Councilwoman Ryan: Right.
Kate Aanenson: We’re saying you’re landlocking two pieces to the south.
Councilwoman Ryan: Correct.
Kate Aanenson: And so we’re saying if you can get 5 lots to provide the right-of-way with the
variance of 50 feet then you can do that. If you can only get 4 lots then that’s what it is but you
have to provide access to the south. However that fits in there there’s flexibility on that. So
whether it’s that 50 foot right-of-way comes in here and how that works out.
Councilwoman Ryan: But you’re suggesting having it come off Glendale Drive?
Kate Aanenson: Correct. It could come off from the south. I think it’s a little bit more
challenging as the City Engineer said. It gets to be a little bit longer cul-de-sac. There’s some
grade changes there so I think it’s probably more expedient to come from the north.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members.
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Gerhardt go ahead.
Todd Gerhardt: If I can add. Paul do you want to show Concept 1? Okay Concept 1, Mr. Ryan.
Mayor Laufenburger: Who is with Lake West.
Todd Gerhardt: Right. Loses a lot based on this concept and so we looked at Concept 2 and he
still has the 5 lots but he needs to acquire some additional land from the property owner to the
south to make Lots 1 and 2 to the same size. So that’s the difficulty he’s having with this…
changes of the cul-de-sac coming in.
Councilwoman Ryan: And what is the feedback from the properties to the south about?
Mayor Laufenburger: Well let’s, we’ll hear from…
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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Todd Gerhardt: Yeah the property owners that comes off of Stratford do not want the cul-de-sac
extended to the north.
Mayor Laufenburger: But I think you’re referring to the two adjacent properties.
Councilwoman Ryan: Yeah but we can wait.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah they want access.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. So I, this thing called Concept 2 is, this is in line with the staff’s
recommendation and of course council we can modify that if we choose but the recommendation
is for that top property, which is not outlined in red but the property right above it, be allowed to
be subdivided into, up to 5 lots with a 50 foot right-of-way and that 50 right-of-way specifically
is there to provide access to the Boylan property which is immediately south and the Kertson
property which is just south of that so.
Todd Gerhardt: That’s correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: That’s the picture of what the staff’s recommendation. So is there any
questions of staff? Okay. I’d like to invite the applicant up here. I expect that he or she would
like to speak to us. If you wouldn’t mind just going to the podium. I hope this isn’t catching you
off guard. Just state your name and address please.
Curt Fretham: Good evening. Good evening, my name’s Curt Fretham with Lake West
Development, 14525 Highway 7, Minnetonka, Minnesota.
Mayor Laufenburger: Welcome Mr. Fretham, nice to have you here.
Curt Fretham: Thank you. Where do I start? There was certainly a bit of confusion on our part.
I’ve been developing property mostly in the western suburbs for the last 20 plus years, if this
overhead is working.
Mayor Laufenburger: Nann are you able to scope in on that? Oh there it is. I think we’re going
to get there. Just give us a second. We were experiencing a little bit of technical difficulty
earlier. We’re going to find out if we can get. Are you depicting areas where you’ve developed
in the past Mr. Fretham, is that what you want to show us?
Curt Fretham: Yeah. What I was showing here was, it’s helpful to show it versus talk about it.
Mayor Laufenburger: Well let’s give her just a second to see if she can scope, zoom that in.
Okay we’re making some progress here.
Todd Gerhardt: There we go.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
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Curt Fretham: Thank you.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay if you can just focus it there Nann. Okay Mr. Fretham.
Curt Fretham: I’ve worked in 18 cities here in the western suburbs and I haven’t updated this in
over a year. We’ve done over 60 developments. Residential developments. They’re typically
about this size. Around 5 lots. I specialize on infill developments and I’m going to tell you
more often than not they require a variance or multiple variances so I’m used to dealing with the
controversial developments. A lot of discussion about should a variance or variances be
approved. Where should the street come in? How should it be developed? So many questions.
This one, what really puzzles me is we’ve got a straight forward application for 5 single family
homes with a non-conforming plat. In other words we don’t need one single variance to
development Concept 1 that was on the screen. Yet what’s confusing to me is we’ve got a staff
recommendation. Well wait a minute, let me step back. After the Planning Commission voted
to approve our 5 lot development as proposed without a variance, made that recommendation to
you. Staff is still coming back to you and in the report it’s wrong. It says that they approved or
recommended approval with the variance and I just had my team queue up the recording so if
you’d like I can play it right here.
Mayor Laufenburger: So you should give us what your interpretation of what you heard Mr.
Fretham.
Curt Fretham: And I think all these people heard the same thing. There was nothing in the, in
their recommendation for a right-of-way of any kind or a variance of any kind. We didn’t ask
for a variance. We don’t need one. And so I’m coming here tonight trying to stay positive that
you as a council will approve what we’ve submitted as a conforming plat, 5 lots. We, it was
commented here from your staff moments ago that, that the development cannot, oh let’s see.
The words were, the development cannot, I lost my train of thought on that. Be a detriment to
the other property and so our development as proposed, I’m not, how are we being a detriment to
the other property? We’ve shown how they can develop their property from the south without
the use or need for granting a variance. Why are we trying to come up with such a convoluted
proposal for a 5 lot development that requires multiple variances and is a detriment to our
development. And I’m not going to go into, I’m going to save it for these guys if you want to
hear of our debate on the problems and challenges with alternates 2 through whatever number
you want to call it because I’ve been in the business long enough. We looked at lots of layouts
on how to do it before we submitted what we did. I didn’t go out and buy that property after
doing this some 60 plus times with the idea that well, we’ll just defer from city code and make
things up as we go and come up with a convoluted type of proposal for you to consider.
Mayor Laufenburger: So Mr. Fretham what you’re, it sounds like what you’re advocating for is,
you want a simple subdivision of this property into 5 lots and you’re not asking for any
variances.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
31
Curt Fretham: That is correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: And you believe that based on what you’re applying for and I think based
on what you heard the Planning Commission say you believe that you should be able to develop
your lot with those 5, your plat with those 5 lots.
Curt Fretham: We know that.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. You mentioned these developments. Do you take these
from here all the way through to completion Mr. Fretham?
Curt Fretham: Yeah take them through to, we plat them.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah.
Curt Fretham: I don’t usually build the houses so I work with a lot of builders and bring in
builders to build the homes but I put in the streets. The utilities.
Mayor Laufenburger: Will you make them buildable?
Curt Fretham: Buildable ready.
Mayor Laufenburger: Shovel ready.
Curt Fretham: Yep.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Curt Fretham: Building permit ready.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. Alright is there anything else you wanted to say Mr.
Fretham? I’m not limiting you on any time.
Curt Fretham: I’m going to turn the floor over to Perry from my office and.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Introduce yourself please.
Perry Ryan: Good evening Mr. Mayor, City Council and staff. Perry Ryan, Lake West
Development, 14525 Highway 7 in Minnetonka.
Mayor Laufenburger: And your role in the organization Mr. Ryan?
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
32
Perry Ryan: Vice President.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Perry Ryan: Yep. What you’re going to hear when you, I don’t know who may have listened to
the recording that Mr. Fretham wanted to play for you, what we heard and we went back and
read it again. Or listened to it again from the Planning Commission was the Planning
Commission approved the project but they struck out every condition that had to do with a
through street and every condition that had to do a stubbing utilities to the south because they
didn’t want that. Okay so that’s what they approved and passed onto you guys. And I don’t
know that I heard that in all of the staff speaking but I wanted to tell you that fairly and squarely.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Perry Ryan: We did, our attorney did submit to Mr. Knutson this afternoon our read on the
definition of the cul-de-sac and I think it’s, I know he’s siding with staff but I think it’s good for
the City Council to read that. I’m going to talk.
Mayor Laufenburger: And this is relevant? Tell me why.
Perry Ryan: Oh it sure is. Well because we’re going to show you what it exactly says in here
and you guys should read it too and I understand that you want your attorney’s opinion and then
we’ll go through it with about 6 or 8 cul-de-sacs within a half mile as well.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Perry Ryan: If you can leave that zoom I think right where it is. This is in the letter, this is the
cul-de-sac definition. I’m not sure if you can zoom in there just a little bit more.
Mayor Laufenburger: This is from Chanhassen City Code?
Perry Ryan: Yes it is, yeah. This is right from the letter that our attorney sent to Mr. Knutson
and it’s right from city code I think verbatim. Correct me if I’m wrong Mr. Knutson. That’s
good. Good. It says the length of a cul-de-sac shall be measured from the intersection of the
cul-de-sac from the street’s center line to the center point of the cul-de-sac turnaround radius.
This is the critical point. The maximum length of a street terminating in a cul-de-sac shall be
800 feet. We would contend that our cul-de-sac, not our cul-de-sac but the cul-de-sac to the
south because we were asked by staff to put together this ghost plat.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right.
Perry Ryan: And so we would contend that Stratford Ridge ends at Stratford Boulevard and the
city staff, I’m not sure exactly who it was said in the staff report that it was engineering and then
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
33
it was said it was the fire department and I talked to the wrong Don today. I talked to the Chief
and not the Marshal so I’m not sure which one of them concurred that this was too long but
here’s what I want to show you. Maybe you can zoom there and I’m going to, Mr. Eggert would
you pass out, I’m going to look at two different things. The first one is, if you want to zoom
back out. I’m not sure who’s in charge of the zoom.
Mayor Laufenburger: Are we about to look at what you’re seeing on the screen?
Perry Ryan: Yeah, yes exactly. Yeah I just wanted to give you a copy. Zoom in just a little bit
more please. Thank you so much. That’s good. So we think we’re reading the city code pretty
literal. That it says that the length of the cul-de-sac shall be to the street center line and so just
for discussion purposes let’s say it’s defined as staff was looking at it. Meaning in our case
defined from Stratford Ridge all the way out to Minnewashta Parkway okay. So this first sheet
shows 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 different cul-de-sacs within the city within a quarter mile of the project.
Turn to the second sheet. What this sheet shows is again I won’t say our’s but Stratford Ridge,
the one in purple is showing the, what we think is the clear reading of the interpretation. That
from the center point of the cul-de-sac at Stratford Ridge to Stratford Boulevard that is 335 feet.
In green it’s showing the 782 feet which matches what staff is saying all the way out to
Minnewashta Parkway so just a fair kind of look at, how we look at it and how the staff looks at
it. So the next one is Stratford Ridge with 175 foot extension. Just to let you know the ghost
plat that we showed shows 175 foot extension on Stratford Ridge and I’m going to go through
that a little bit as well and show that. We believe from the strict interpretation of the ordinance
would be 510 feet. And the way the staff would read it would be 957 feet. Again the distance
out to Minnewashta Parkway. Okay so go through and I won’t belabor you on the rest of these
but we went through Minnewashta Creek 2nd Addition at 1,000 feet and we’ll just go with the
staff’s interpretation because that’s what we’re comparing to. Minnewashta Landings is at 1,328
feet without a variance I might add. Hidden Creek Meadows is 1,660 feet. It’s also without a
variance too because I worked on that 10 years ago. Red Cedar Point is 1,908 feet and then Oaks
at Minnewashta is 2,112 feet. That’s when you calculate the distance from the center of that cul-
de-sac to Minnewashta Parkway using the same criteria that staff, I won’t say the City. It was
engineering and fire department is what the report said. So that’s for consideration. We do not
believe that number one, as Mr. Fretham pointed out, we have before you a 5 lot subdivision
asking for no variances. But the variance discussion keeps coming up from staff in reports. We
are not asking for a variance. That variance is for what they want to do and putting a roadway
through our project. We are not asking for a variance. I want to be crystal clear on that. Over
and over I see staff recommending approval for a variance. We don’t want a variance.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right.
Perry Ryan: We don’t think we need one so I just want to be crystal clear on that.
Mayor Laufenburger: And just, and just to say it a different way Mr. Ryan, you don’t need a
variance on your 5 lot.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
34
Perry Ryan: We do not need a variance in there.
Mayor Laufenburger: And staff’s recommendation is allow the 50 foot variance to protect the
properties to the south.
Perry Ryan: Yeah.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright.
Perry Ryan: Okay I’m going to show you one more thing. I promise I’ll try not to be up here.
Did you pass this around too Mr. Eggert? Thank you. So this is the next one. You might have
to zoom out on this one a little bit. Not too much. Little more please. That’s good probably
right there, thank you so much. Okay, yeah. Perfect. Perfect. So this is the ghost plat on the
left that we submitted. Staff requested that we put this together to put together a conforming plat
on the south side. As you no doubt know, or maybe you don’t know. I’ll point it out. Stratford
Ridge has a right-of-way to, up to the south property. Excuse me, to the Kertson’s property.
And again I’m showing that 175 foot connection that we are saying this conforming layout
would have for the extension of that. So the other thing that’s kind of interesting, and we’ll get
to it as we read this. We’re proposing 175 foot extension of that and this Concept 2 submitted by
Alliant Engineering, just wanted to clarify. Mr. Mayor I know you asked if we had seen this
before.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yep.
Perry Ryan: We saw it at the Planning Commission meeting for the first time and we were never
given a copy of it until we saw this in the staff report.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Perry Ryan: So we never had a copy of it until I got the staff report.
Mayor Laufenburger: But you’ve done some work as a result of that is that correct?
Perry Ryan: Yes sir.
Mayor Laufenburger: Because I’m looking at something that’s your work right?
Perry Ryan: Yes this is our work, yes thank you.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah, thank you.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
35
Perry Ryan: So one thing I wanted to point out is, what we’re proposing coming from the south I
using less pavement by 40 percent. We’re proposing this shorter cul-de-sac here is 175 feet.
This Concept 2 proposes a 240 foot cul-de-sac and so which one has less pavement by 40 percent
with a little X over on our side. They’re not all on our side. Just to let you know.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright.
Perry Ryan: We think it’s smart planning. Somebody was smart a long time ago and put this
right-of-way to there. You can say that one of the options back in 1988 showed that through
street but the orientation is nothing like that. I think the neighbors to the south, I think the
neighbors to the south did a very nice job in pointing out that those concepts really didn’t come
to fruition. In fact they read Planning Commission members or maybe the City Council, I’m not
sure read their quotes saying this is just a concept. This is how we’re doing it but somebody did
a nice job and they put the right-of-way to here suggesting that the street may continue. And as I
said the Planning Commission said they do not want a through street. The neighbors don’t want
a through street. Everybody bought on a cul-de-sac. That’s what they want. The other thing
that I put in my third point here. Using the existing services on Glendale Drive. The other bit of
good planning and engineering that the City did back many years ago was on Glendale Drive.
On Glendale Drive they put 6 stubs for utilities for both water and sewer so they contemplated 6
lots along there. We’re only asking for 5. So which one uses the existing services on Glendale?
Our layout does. So one of the things that I’m hearing from staff that’s extremely important and
I understand why is removal of driveways on Minnewashta Parkway. That’s the next bullet
point. What we had proposed in the ghost plat coming from the south and what Alliant is
proposing had that feature. Taking off the access. I assume they’d take away this access to the
Boylan’s and have to come off the cul-de-sac. The next one, we talked about hardship. I think I
really enjoyed the two comments that were made by the City Engineer Mr. Oehme. He
referenced Code 18-57(A). Consider using existing planned streets. Well I think that’s what
we’re doing. We’re using the planned street for Glendale with the utilities in it and we’re using
this planned right-of-way to service those to the south. The other code that he mentioned which I
thought was good was 18-60(F). Not cause undue hardship to your neighbor. So my next point
was which one places hardship on a neighbor with double frontage lots. Well this one here.
Everybody has a nice pretty typical standard layout. What the City or the neighbor to the south
is proposing is to put a right-of-way through our property without asking us to and they’re giving
us two double frontage lots here. And then they’re also taking 50 feet of right-of-way along
Glendale Drive. It’s 50 or 60. 50 with a variance. They want to give us a variance but if it’s for
a long cul-de-sac they don’t want to give us a variance. What that does, we’ve already had
somebody come to us and take a look at this. These are generous lots. They’re generous for a
reason. Number one because they’re within the shoreland overlay district and so they’re a
maximum 25 percent hard cover. We’ve had someone come to us, they wanted the center lot
and true story. They wanted the center lot. They didn’t want a double frontage lot. They
wanted enough space to build a house they wanted to build and so this really, is going to
definitely cause us undue hardship because I don’t know which lot we’d give them. Maybe 2 but
his house isn’t going to fit on 2 so I think which plan causes undue hardship on us with double
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
36
frontage lots. Concept 2 does. Which one places a hardship on the neighbor with smaller lots. I
just talked about that. They’re with what they’re proposing here it’s causing us to have smaller
lots.
Mayor Laufenburger: You probably know this Mr. Ryan. What’s the size of the lots with the
right-of-way in place? With the 50 foot right-of-way in place.
Perry Ryan: I don’t know. We were not provided with that.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. Fair.
Perry Ryan: I don’t know what they are.
Mayor Laufenburger: What are the size of the lots without your right-of-way?
Perry Ryan: They’re 15,000 to 18,000.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay so as Mr. Gerhardt has said if the right-of-way, the 50 foot right-of-
way variance, if the 50 foot right-of-way is in place in order for Lots 1 and 2 to meet the
minimum standard you’d have to acquire some land from the Boylan’s?
Perry Ryan: Yeah and…
Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah I got it. I got it.
Perry Ryan: …how that happens.
Mayor Laufenburger: Well they need more space if you want 5. If you want 4 you don’t need to
buy, get any more space.
Perry Ryan: Yeah or we just go with our conforming plat.
Mayor Laufenburger: You’re making good progress here Mr. Ryan.
Perry Ryan: I’m almost there. Street variance requirement. So again their layout here Concept
2, I see street variance required. Has got an X on their side but they’re requiring a variance to
put that street in.
Mayor Laufenburger: 50 yeah.
Perry Ryan: But we don’t want it. House that setback variance required. The reason we put that
is they’re showing this, this lot line coming next to our neighbors to the south. I don’t know
what it comes to. It looks like it comes within 10 feet. It appears to me that that’s going to
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
37
require a variance unless they’re saying the house is removed but again I can show you several
emails we’ve asked to get together with staff and we’ve not been invited to look at this with
them. We’d love to.
Mayor Laufenburger: Your point is made Mr. Ryan, yep.
Perry Ryan: Huh?
Mayor Laufenburger: Your point is made that you didn’t get this until a week ago.
Perry Ryan: Roadway grade change. Staff previously had said oh gosh you can’t, you can’t do
this. There’s too much a grade change here between this cul-de-sac and by getting onto the
property. We’re saying wait now, roadway grade change. Now they’re proposing this. You
guys can count contours just like I can. It’s 14 feet of grade change from Glendale down to
where this cul-de-sac is. They said coming from the south it’s too hard with an 8 foot grade
change but they’re saying this one is okay traversing 14 feet. I’m not.
Mayor Laufenburger: I’m not an engineer but 14 feet over a longer period of time doesn’t,
wouldn’t necessarily be as strong of grade over 8 foot over a shorter.
Perry Ryan: Sure, well Mr. Mayor I don’t know if you noticed but my name’s on the plans as
well. I did the engineering on as well. I’m a registered engineer.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yep.
Perry Ryan: 8 feet over the 175 feet is not that much either so it meets the code.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Perry Ryan: And I don’t know that drop that whole 8 feet so. Appropriate lot allocations for
south neighbors. You might wonder what are you talking about? Well if you look at our ghost
plat this grade line here is the delineation between the middle property owner and the south
property owner and we tried, we just did an attempt, we weren’t going to spend a lot of time on
this. When asked we did do a conforming layout. Now it very closely follows that. I would
contend that if I spent a little time on it I could make that work so you could have conforming
with other lot lines. What I mean by appropriate lot allocation, I put this line in here that goes
right down a lot line. You tell me who’s going to sit in a room and figure out which one, which
lot, this property owner’s getting this lot. This one gets and who pays for this land swap. I want
to know the Judge that’s going to sit and work that deal out. We just think that our layout does a
much better job appropriately allocating to the south neighbors what lots get what. And I’m not
sure what they’re showing here. This layout is way, this existing home on the very south lot. It
looks to me like part of that house would have to be removed since there’s a lot line going
through it so I think that we think that our layout’s better. I mean the two biggest things to me
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
38
are 20 years ago, almost 30 years ago. Let’s see it’s ’88. 30 years ago that property to the south
was developed and they put that right-of-way in there and you’ve got the right-of-way in there.
You can do a very short.
Mayor Laufenburger: Just to be clear, when you say the property to the south are you talking
about Stratford Ridge.
Perry Ryan: Yes sir.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Perry Ryan: The right-of-way is already into Stratford Ridge. This is the right-of-way going
right to the property so they’ve got right-of-way all along this line okay. So they’ve got plenty
of right-of-way that’s there. We’re not taking away their access. They have access. We’re not
land locking anybody. I heard the word landlock used. I was, I was impressed by Ms.
Aanenson’s comment. She said, she said that the recommendation that they’re saying to approve
with 5 lots and access. She said it could come off from the south. I’m, would really only be
excited about that because I think that’s where it logically should come from and I think logically
we’re using the utilities within Glendale Drive so with that I stand for any questions.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Thank you Mr. Ryan.
Perry Ryan: You’re welcomed.
Mayor Laufenburger: Any questions of the developer, either Mr. Ryan or Mr. Fretham from
council?
Councilman McDonald: I have a question.
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. McDonald go ahead.
Councilman McDonald: On Concept 2 on the property that’s, I guess that’s to the north but at
the bottom that you need to add the lots 1 and 2. Have you approached the owner to the south
about selling that?
Perry Ryan: In the last, oh sorry.
Councilman McDonald: Yep.
Perry Ryan: Okay. In the last.
Mayor Laufenburger: Could you just speak into the microphone.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
39
Perry Ryan: Very sorry.
Mayor Laufenburger: I want to make sure we hear you.
Perry Ryan: In the last 2 years Mr. Fretham, roughly in the last 2 years we’ve had 2 meetings
with either them or their representative at Edina’s office in Wayzata so we have talked to them
yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: And what was your most recent conversation with them?
Perry Ryan: I believe it was early summer. Wasn’t it, I think. I’m not exactly sure. I would
have to take a look. It was after we had been moving forward. I don’t think we had closed yet.
We now currently own the property so I don’t think we had closed on the property yet but it just
it did, I know since we talked to them they did enter into a purchase agreement and what the
realtor said it was maybe an emotional purchase agreement from the buyer’s side and so it was
maybe higher than normal and it just to us it just doesn’t work out financially. I mean no matter
what way you look at it you get 2 or 3 lots and it just doesn’t, it doesn’t make sense and I think
where it makes sense is coming from the south. There’s less infrastructure cost and everything.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Mr. McDonald anything else?
Councilman McDonald: Well so at this point there’s no commitment for them to even consider
selling you those.
Perry Ryan: Never had the conversation.
Councilman McDonald: Never had the conversation.
Perry Ryan: No sir.
Mayor Laufenburger: Do you have any interest in the conversation?
Perry Ryan: I just don’t think that any of these concepts coming from the north on Glendale are
financially viable. It’s way, the parcels as a whole, those south two parcels are way more
financially viable coming from the south. And we’ve done a lot of developments.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right.
Councilman McDonald: Okay.
Mayor Laufenburger: Councilmember Tjornhom go ahead.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
40
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Can we talk about timing again? I know we have 120 days until this
is supposed to be ready to go or everything has been decided but I mean we’ve just had 10 issues
right here brought up to us that need to be resolved and probably more issues and so what are we
looking at for timing and what are some options?
Kate Aanenson: Well I think part of the discussion you’re missing is there’s some very strong
feelings on the people from the south that gave their own petition, their own legal opinions on
how they didn’t feel like they wanted to share the burden coming from the south. Whether or not
they buy the property, there’s a lot of discussion on. I would agree the Planning Commission
said we’re not going to worry about which direction it come from so they did recommend
approval without any variances. The staff’s position is it’s got to come from one way or the
other and that the Planning Commission felt like they didn’t want to burden it to the people on
Stratford Ridge and they didn’t want to force it there so the staff’s position is you’ve got to give
access somewhere.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: So we weighed those two positions.
Mayor Laufenburger: What about the timing that Ms. Tjornhom?
Kate Aanenson: I think there’s some people here from the people on the south that may want to
speak so.
Mayor Laufenburger: Well I think before we ask them.
Kate Aanenson: I would ask the City Attorney on that because we’re at the extension of the, you
know so we have a recommendation and then the 120 days ends October 27th.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Because this started, did you say in.
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: August.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah so we’ve been trying to meet with property owners. There has been
some, I’m not sure we’re getting all the facts here because there’s been some you know some
miscommunication on all parties.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay so it sounds like, are you not able to address Ms. Tjornhom’s
questions regarding options that we have to either extend or not extend?
Kate Aanenson: I would turn that over to the City Attorney.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
41
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Knutson.
Roger Knutson: Mayor, members of the council.
Mayor Laufenburger: Do you understand Councilmember Tjornhom’s question?
Roger Knutson: Yes we have to act within 120 days or it’s deemed approved and that’s October
27th so unless you want to have another special council meeting or something you have to act
tonight unless the developer gives you an extension of time within which to act.
Mayor Laufenburger: And that really depends upon the developer’s.
Roger Knutson: They can give us, give you an extension of time if they choose to.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. Okay. So that’s the answer.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yep.
Mayor Laufenburger: Any other questions of Mr. Ryan?
Councilman McDonald: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Laufenburger: Go ahead Mr. McDonald.
Councilman McDonald: I’ve got a follow up to all of that. Okay I’m a little bit confused. Okay
we’re given a plan that meets all the requirements for the 5 lots. Why are we designing a cul-de-
sac? Isn’t that the responsibility of the property owner to the south? I don’t understand why
we’re getting involved with that design to the north.
Councilman McDonald: I think that may be a question of Ms. Aanenson.
Kate Aanenson: So the property owner to the south wanted to position themselves to make sure
that they understood what the implications of the development was so regardless of whether or
not they trade properties, the staff feels there’s still an opportunity based on the lot sizes of still
meeting the shoreland district they could get to the 15,000 square foot lot. Understood they want
to have bigger lots. What we’re saying they may still be able to get the 15,000 with the 50 foot
right-of-way. The designs to the south were drawn by the propert y owners on the south to show
how they could be preserved to get access from that direction.
Councilman McDonald: Are they here tonight?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
42
Mayor Laufenburger: Yep. So any further questions of Mr. Ryan or Mr. Fretham at this time?
While you’re here Mr. Ryan, Ms. Aanenson as I was reading the report I saw that there were
some, there were some issues that were addressed and some that were not. Are you able to, in
discussions with Lake West. Or have all issues been addressed?
Kate Aanenson: No I would think, we went through some of the stormwater.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yep and they, and Lake West submitted a revised plan which shows a
berm of some sort that would direct the water over to the bottom of Lot 1, is that correct Ms.
Strong?
Vanessa Strong: Yes that’s basically correct. They’ve addressed the overall layout and
conceptual design of how stormwater would be managed on the site.
Mayor Laufenburger: But you still want substantiation that their design will work?
Vanessa Strong: They still have to provide the documents that show, and they said that they
would and as long as they do staff is comfortable with that.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Mr. Ryan did you have a comment on that?
Perry Ryan: A clarification Mr. Mayor. Yeah the inference in here is that we did not give them
to them but when these plans which are submitted 10-17-18 which is on the hyperlink on the
staff report.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yep.
Perry Ryan: At the same time we submitted stormwater management plans so we did submit
them.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Yeah, no I’m acknowledging that you did.
Perry Ryan: Okay.
Mayor Laufenburger: I’m just, I’m asking the folks over here if they have put their final okey
dokey on them.
Perry Ryan: Understand but the inference in the staff report kind of says we didn’t give it to
them yet but I just wanted to clarify that.
Kate Aanenson: I guess the question is did it meet city standards. There’s a lot of things that
didn’t meet standards. That was the.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
43
Vanessa Strong: And it is a condition of approval that it matches.
Mayor Laufenburger: Sure.
Perry Ryan: You bet.
Mayor Laufenburger: And they understand that. You understand the conditions of approval?
Perry Ryan: Totally, yes sir.
Mayor Laufenburger: I figured you did. Okay. Let’s see. Mr. Ryan, are these properties that
you’re proposing, will they be part of a homeowners association?
Perry Ryan: We had suggested.
Mayor Laufenburger: I realize that’s not a city thing. I’m just wondering if they will.
Perry Ryan: Sure, we would rather not be. We’ve done it in many other communities. Again
we’ve worked in quite a few communities in the metro. We had suggested to staff because we
never heard that problem with enforcing the ONM on that. We suggested to staff we’d be more
than happy for our attorney and the City’s attorney to work that out on whether it has to be an
HOA or simply an ONM agreement.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah it’s just our experience that when there’s an HOA, when there’s
specific responsibilities and funding for maintenance of things like that.
Perry Ryan: Sure.
Mayor Laufenburger: We have a better, likely a better long term relationship.
Perry Ryan: I understand that totally and I’m happy with the attorney’s figuring that out.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. And does the property that you own, this top stripe, does that
property currently have access to Lake Minnewashta and is that important?
Perry Ryan: It is part of the Pleasant Acres HOA.
Mayor Laufenburger: Oh so it is part of the HOA?
Perry Ryan: Yes sir. Yes.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
44
Mayor Laufenburger: Oh, okay. Okay I think that answers my question that you, so these 5
properties would become part of the Pleasant Acres HOA.
Perry Ryan: We area already part of it yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: You are part of it. Would these 5 lots be part of it?
Perry Ryan: Yes, yes. Yes. Yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Perry Ryan: Yep we’ve already paid the dues and been accepted.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. Mr. Ryan we may need to call you back but I think I’d like
to hear from some other property owners.
Perry Ryan: Be happy to, thank you so much.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright. Thank you very much and Mr. Fretham, thank you for your
investment and willing to invest in our community. I think we’d like to hear from the property
owners to the south and I think that would be the Boylan or Kertson, and actually we have a, just
a moment here. We have an email from Mr. Kertson. Is Mr. Kertson with us tonight?
Jeff Kertson: I am.
Mayor Laufenburger: Oh okay, alright. So let’s hear from, draw straws if you want. Is the
Boylan representative here and the Kertson representative here, so whoever wants to speak first?
And I realize this is not a public hearing but I think the council is interested in hearing your
perspective. Identify yourself and your address please.
Carin Moore: Good evening Mayor, council members, staff. My name is Carin Moore and I am
the personal representative of the Estate of James and Ruth Boylan who are my parents that are
deceased. We are the property owners at 6760 Minnewashta Parkway.
Mayor Laufenburger: Is that the address that you reside at too Carin?
Carin Moore: No it is not.
Mayor Laufenburger: Would you mind giving us your address?
Carin Moore: I’d be happy to. 3480 Lakeside Drive, Minnetrista.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Ms. Moore, go ahead.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
45
Carin Moore: I first want to address that I did send a letter last week as well just following up on
last meeting. I’m just hoping that everybody did receive that.
Mayor Laufenburger: That was part of the packet, yep.
Carin Moore: Wonderful.
Mayor Laufenburger: Both your October 2nd letter and also the October 16th or whatever date
that was.
Carin Moore: Wonderful. Well I’m going to assume that you have listened. Read all the details
so I don’t want to waste time. I don’t want to repeat myself. I don’t want to have us be here
until 10:00 at night either because I respect everybody’s time but I do have a few points that I
also want to mention. I am not an engineer. When the City’s tasked me to come up with
concepts. Other ideas. I reached out to another engineering firm and asked for just that. All of
those designs that you’ve seen, Concept 1, 2, 3, 4, none were done with specific dimensions.
None were done with understanding there was a 50 foot variance instead of a 60 foot so that’s
why you see the 60 foot right-of-way there because that’s standard. Any direction. Basically for
us we just want to know how to subdivide our property. That’s basically it. When I went to the
City planner about 8 years ago and reached out to them and I think it’s Concept 2 potentially
that, or maybe 4 even. The one where it just split our property in half. Front to back and I was
told then that the concept of adding a road inbetween all 3 properties was in the plan. In the plan
for the city and that a subdivision splitting our property in half and having access to Country
Oaks really wasn’t going to be an option. It would take a lot of work and variances to be able to
get us access because as you can see there’s city owned property. There’s neighbors back there.
We’re technically, we don’t have any access to that west road okay.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right.
Carin Moore: I did petition originally to say okay give us that little sliver if just to help that
process if you were going to give us access on the back side. The planning group says you know
it should really go to the property to the south. Actually that’s good friends of our’s. The
Dorsey’s. I agree with that. I think it makes the most sense layout wise but again it’s not my
call. I just pulled something out of there to say if we wanted to have access, if we don’t want to
cut a road into the property to the north or from Stratford that’s the other option. If the City
wants to limit access to the parkway how are we going to do that? I’m looking at you to help me
because we are in the process of trying to sell our property. Not because we don’t love it there.
We love this property but just because of the unfortunate circumstances that have hit our family
in the last 2 years. Our neighbors to the south we worked together. We are on the same page.
We want the best for each other but again the Kertson’s are focused on the Kertson’s. The
Boylan’s family are focused on the Boylan’s. When we talked with Stratford they had a big
problem with any through street. The concept of having a cul-de-sac, if that’s the best option
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
46
from Stratford and there are no problems with health and safety and with what the rules are today
for cul-de-sacs we’re not opposed to that. We never said we were opposed to that. We’re just
trying to have the best option for everyone. The one thing I do want to point out with our two
properties that hasn’t been really mentioned is we do have a pretty substantial a lot of lakeshore
as well. Included into our property we have 187 feet of lakeshore. Almost about a half an acre
of property.
Mayor Laufenburger: Is that clearly delineated?
Carin Moore: Yep.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Carin Moore: Right, right above that pointer is our’s, yep.
Mayor Laufenburger: So this is your lakeshore access.
Carin Moore: Correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: And one just below that is the Kertson’s lakeshore access.
Carin Moore: Correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. So the one above you.
Carin Moore: Is Pleasant Acres. That’s the HOA.
Mayor Laufenburger: So that’s the homeowners association.
Carin Moore: Yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: To which Mr. Ryan’s belongs.
Carin Moore: Correct, yep.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright.
Carin Moore: And that actually I know just because we were working on some relationships
with them right now is it’s grandfathered in. It’s not to the current regulation sized for an
association anymore.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
47
Carin Moore: So actually our property is actually not big enough for an association either so if
we were to create an association out of our property we would have to combine or get 11 feet, or
13 feet, give or take, from the Kertson’s to be able to have our property become the regulated
size for an association lakeshore today.
Mayor Laufenburger: Or the council could grant.
Carin Moore: A variance on that.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right.
Carin Moore: Correct, yep. So we’re just really here to kind of talk about, we’re willing to
work. We want to work. We have bid out. I’m not into any he said, she said. However I can
say my father passed away in April of 2017. My first discussion with Lake West was in May of
this year so 2 years, unless my parents were talking with them we have no concept of that and we
have never talked about any value. Nobody has ever placed any offers to us or given us any
negotiation. It was pure discussion and that was it.
Mayor Laufenburger: So you have, you’ve no sales or purchase agreement?
Carin Moore: No. We had a buyer. A personal buyer.
Mayor Laufenburger: Came by.
Carin Moore: That came by and they backed out for personal reasons as well.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Carin Moore: Which is the way it is right? And just really quickly too. The detriment basically,
and I think I may have already mentioned this so I apologize if I am repeating myself but the
City doesn’t way a parkway access so if we don’t have a cul-de-sac and we don’t have a road
that becomes a detriment to us because now what do we do? We don’t have access to the back.
Mayor Laufenburger: Helicopter pad. Helicopter pad maybe.
Carin Moore: Yeah well I mean if somebody else is willing to cover that, that’s fantastic but
that’s what we’re talking about here. I’m not looking at it, I appreciate the efforts made that,
with eliminating the rain gardens because that was a huge concern for us and the drainage and as
long as the city engineer says it’s good, we are ecstatic about that and we want to work with
anybody on that to make sure that our property stays the way it is. Obviously I do also want to
point out any concept would be removing the current houses that are on the property so if you
see a property line.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
48
Mayor Laufenburger: On your property.
Carin Moore: And the Kertson’s potentially yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Carin Moore: If there’s a line through a property it was done in the understanding it would be
cleared and those property lines would be created so obviously again I’m not an engineer but it
wasn’t done just frivolously either. We had that thought in our head.
Mayor Laufenburger: So thank you Carin, or Ms. Moore. Council any questions of Ms. Moore?
Mr. Campion go ahead.
Councilman Campion: Just a clarifying question. So Ms. Moore you stated that you’re
comfortable with a cul-de-sac coming from the south.
Carin Moore: It’s, I’m comfortable with what works best for the properties.
Councilman Campion: Okay.
Carin Moore: What I, my understanding was with the grading, and again not an engineer but
what I heard through these meetings is that the grading coming off of Stratford, if you actually
went out there you can, there is a ledge and Jeff and Terry’s lot there is a ledge on that cul-de-sac
dropping into their lot so there would be a lot of fill to be able to do the grade the way that it’s
required, again my understanding. That cul-de-sac would not, that is being proposed would not
reach that proper grading. That’s what I understood it to. If that does reach proper grading fine
but I know that the families in Stratford aren’t really thrilled about that option so that’s now
other people that have opinions about that too.
Councilman Campion: Okay.
Carin Moore: Does that, did I answer your question?
Councilman Campion: It does thank you.
Carin Moore: Okay.
Mayor Laufenburger: I’ve seen that property. It would have to be graded in some regard. Right
now you know when you go to the end of the cul-de-sac you kind of push, part the ways like the
Lion and the Witch and the Wardrobe did you know to get into Narnia.
Carin Moore: Yep.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
49
Mayor Laufenburger: It is deep.
Carin Moore: There’s a little over growth.
Mayor Laufenburger: But I like you I’m also not an engineer and maybe it, my guess is it could
be built there. Okay. Anything more of Ms. Moore? At this time. Alright. Thank you. We
reserve the right to recall you though.
Carin Moore: Great, thank you. Thank you for your time.
Mayor Laufenburger: How about Mr. or Ms. Kertson? A representative from the Kertson
property. State your name and address.
Jeff Kertson: Mr. Mayor, City Council. My name’s Jeff Kertson. 6810 Minnewashta Parkway.
Just to the south of the Boylan property there.
Mayor Laufenburger: Is that your homestead Mr. Kertson?
Jeff Kertson: That is our homestead there.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright.
Jeff Kertson: So really Carin has addressed most of the issues that we’ve talked about in terms
of some of the, what we would feel undue hardships on, you know on some things in terms of
getting access to our property. The other part of it is, is really you know the City really doesn’t
want us to have access to the parkway any longer. Understandably for traffic and you know
safety reasons so that really, that coming off of the eastern side really would not work because
we don’t want to have that. That’s also partially a blind corner. People come racing around that
road and if you had 5 houses dumping out onto Minnewashta Parkway it might be a bit of an
issue. Coming from the west side from Country Oaks Drive is also not a very viable option. In
terms of what the property is they’d have to give up some property. Dorsey’s would actually
probably have to give up some property so we don’t know that that’s necessarily a great option
either. So really when we take a look at it we’re looking at either coming from the north or the
south and again I would agree with Carin. I mean we’re here just to work with people and try to
be good neighbors and she’s looking out for us and we’re looking out for her and I think that’s
kind of the way that it needs to be. And just like I’m looking out for the people from Stratford
Ridge, I know what their concern is in terms of extending that cul-de-sac and having more traffic
you know come through there and that’s a concern with the kids and everything else. I mean
they like to have their neighborhood the way it is and have it safe and everything else and if you
add 5 more houses to it is that going to be you know a traffic issue so we can you know, I can see
all points involved. We just want to make sure that whatever is decided that you know, that
we’re part of the decision in terms of now where do we end up. Now what do we do? I mean if
somebody does something it’s like okay well, now I’m kind of stuck. Not only has it become
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
50
undue hardship but now to actually devalue our property by making it landlocked and kind of a
mess.
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Kertson how long have you been on your property?
Jeff Kertson: Since 1986. The house has been in our family’s name since 1924.
Mayor Laufenburger: Wow, century house almost.
Jeff Kertson: Well and just along with our neighbors we’ve been, that property has been in their
family for over 100 years also.
Mayor Laufenburger: Do you, are you actively working to sell your property to?
Jeff Kertson: Not at this time but.
Mayor Laufenburger: You don’t have a precipitating event that says you need to get to Hawaii.
Jeff Kertson: No but I need to be you know, I need to be intelligent and smart about things and if
there’s a viable, reasonable option to things I would be foolish not to at least you know consider
them.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Have, Mr. Kertson have you had any conversations with the Lake
West Development Group?
Jeff Kertson: Just in passing. Curt had stopped by at one point in time and I, we spoke briefly
an I did mention that you know at any point in time if there’s a reasonable offer out there that
you know we’d consider things but it was very light and not a, not a firm discussion.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay good. Any questions of Mr. Kertson from the council?
Councilman McDonald: I’ve got a question.
Mayor Laufenburger: Go ahead Mr. McDonald.
Councilman McDonald: From the south if we look at this cul-de-sac, give me a feeling what is
the land like? What kind of elevation differences or anything like that?
Jeff Kertson: It’s at least 8 feet. So the cul-de-sac is here. As I’m standing on my property it’s
here and it’s a drop within a distance of probably 6 feet where it drops down. It drops off fairly
suddenly. When they came in, when Stratford Ridge came in with their development they came
in and essentially excavated to the, excavated to that point and that was it. So there was a lot of,
not only by the cul-de-sac but back behind that there’s a fair amount of drop.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
51
Councilman McDonald: Okay without being a engineer I really can’t ask you the question I
really want to but I guess you’re not opposed, I mean as far as you can tell if the cul-de-sac were
to extend from the south you haven’t heard anything that would say that would hurt your
property as far as being able to sell it?
Jeff Kertson: Well not necessarily. In order for the, I would tell you this. In order for that cul-
de-sac to come from the south and in that short of an area at 125 or 100 feet from side to side on
the lot or north to south, you’re talking about a fair amount of fill. You’re talking about a lot of
excavating that would need to be done and also if you were to include that because of the change
in elevation. We, our property essentially is the low point from that area. The elevation in the
Glendale subdivision area is at about 980, 975, somewhere in that range. Whereas the elevation
on our property at our low point is 960. So you’re talking about a 25, well about a 20 foot, 25
foot drop from the top of their property down to the bottom of our’s.
Councilman McDonald: Okay thank you.
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Kertson what’s the size of your property? How many acres?
Jeff Kertson: It’s 1.3 acres. And we have about 125 feet of lakeshore.
Mayor Laufenburger: So your property which is the lakeshore property directly east, the line,
the north, the northern boundary of your lot property and the bottom, southern boundary, that just
goes right over to the lake.
Jeff Kertson: Correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: And you have access there? You have like a road or something that you
actually.
Jeff Kertson: We actually access across the Boylan’s property.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Jeff Kertson: We drive down the association beach’s road or association and Boylan’s all share
access to that road and then we actually you can somewhat see that there’s a white line and that’s
actually a driveway or road that we put in in conjunction with Jim. Jim Boylan to have access to
our property. We also have steps to get down but.
Mayor Laufenburger: You can walk.
Jeff Kertson: We can walk to if we need to but it’s awfully convenient to be able to drive down
there.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
52
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay alright. Well thank you Mr. Kertson. Appreciate your comments.
Jeff Kertson: Thank you.
Mayor Laufenburger: I’m glad you, I assume you’re enjoying Chanhassen right?
Jeff Kertson: Yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: 32 years. 34 years as a matter of fact. Let’s bring it back to council for
any questions or comments and you can direct those questions to staff or to, or to any of the
property owners that have met. Maybe I should ask first. Is there any clarification that Mr.
Oehme, Ms. Strong or Ms. Aanenson want to provide?
Kate Aanenson: I would just add that from the Minutes there’s a lot of strong feelings from the
people on Stratford regarding the connection. Just because they’re not, you haven’t heard that
voice so if you read the Minutes there was a lot of comments and that’s where the legal opinion
came in and so there was a lot of feelings on that.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right and we, I think we all understand that people are in a cul-de-sac.
They want to keep it that way. I mean we have other examples of that. Go ahead Ms. Strong.
Vanessa Strong: …in listening to the conversation about extending the cul-de-sac, and folks
were discussing the fill because of the grade change. I wasn’t able to pull it up in time but there
is no guarantee because of shoreland regulations and floodplain regulations that you could fill in
that area or what the cost or mitigation repercussions might be so that would definitely be
something to, that would have to be looked into. It’s not as simple as just being able to fill
outside those areas.
Mayor Laufenburger: Just because, just because you think it can doesn’t mean that you can.
Vanessa Strong: Because of where it happens to be within.
Mayor Laufenburger: In the shoreland district.
Vanessa Strong: In the regulatory zones yeah.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Who would have governing authority over that Ms. Strong?
Vanessa Strong: Well the DNR will have a lot to say about that. The watershed district also has
their own rules.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. We’ve got 5 days Bethany.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
53
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Unless we get an extension.
David Lieser: Mr. Mayor? Will we have an opportunity?
Mayor Laufenburger: And you represent?
David Lieser: The Stratford Ridge.
Mayor Laufenburger: Oh absolutely. My, please. Come up here. Thank you for asking. State
your name please.
David Lieser: My name is David Lieser. I live at 3881 Stratford Ridge.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
David Lieser: Lived there since 1997. The obvious thing that bothers us is that every one of the
15 families in the Stratford Ridge neighborhood and homeowners association, none of them have
ever had any knowledge that there was a plan in the background with the City of Chanhassen to
make our street into a through street up to Leslee Lane or anything of the sort. There’s nothing
in any of the title documents that led any of our attorneys to warn us about that possibility or
anything of the sort and certainly the topography there is such that no one would have expected
that anybody would want to build a roller coaster street from the end of our cul-de-sac to
anywhere else in that area, let alone all the way up to Leslee Curve. We’re a little surprised that
the City is pushing so hard on it. The planning staff because it doesn’t seem to make sense to
anybody that we talked to, to destroy our double cul-de-sac to perhaps give a different approach
to getting onto Minnewashta Parkway from other areas. Whether it’s from the Leslee Curve or
Country Oaks, and there isn’t, it will not reduce traffic to Minnewashta Parkway. The one thing
that hasn’t been discussed here is the fact that both the Boylan’s and the Kertson’s currently have
access to Minnewashta Parkway. Now I know they’re, they feel under threat because they’ve
been told by staff that they want to get rid of their entry onto Minnewashta Parkway. But
whatever people are put into this new subdivision, one way or the other, those people are all
going to be going onto Minnewashta Parkway. It doesn’t reduce the traffic one bit and they’re
going to be going at one time or another so it, it defies common sense that that should be done
and there have been other alternatives along even Minnewashta Parkway for development. For
example at the Rocky Isle Lane subdivision of 3 or 4 houses that is north of the Glendale project
and I’m not sure whether you’re all familiar with that. You probably would have been at one
time or another when that was put in but those kind of options are also available for the
development of the Boylan and Kertson properties so we’re the only people that are left with no
alternative. We’re being told now that the 15 families that have relied on this subdivision that
we have that has that double cul-de-sac as our homes and as our investment and for the safety of
our kids that that should be just destroyed so that the City can lop off another access to another
of the existing accesses to Minnewashta Parkway and to us it makes no sense. It’s not that we
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
54
want to make a problem for either Jeff or Carin. They have access. We’re not landlocking them.
And it seems the City’s trying to landlock them by saying oh you’re going to, we’re going to get
rid of this access if you decide to develop.
Mayor Laufenburger: Well let me just clarify Mr. Lieser.
David Lieser: Sure.
Mayor Laufenburger: I don’t think we are, correct me if I’m wrong Ms. Aanenson. We are not
putting pressure on either Kertson or Boylan to develop their land, is that correct?
Kate Aanenson: That’s correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay so we’re just saying that long term our preference would be that the
access points on Minnewashta Parkway for the public safety, that the access points should be
diminished at some point in time if development opportunities present us with that so we’re not,
we’re not saying hey you can’t exit on Minnewashta Parkway so I think.
David Lieser: Well I think there has been some pressure. Not pressure to develop but pressure
by saying to them that they should look at it this way because you know if you want to develop
and make the money out of your property that you know you’re going to have to do that because
we’re getting rid of the accesses to Minnewashta Parkway.
Mayor Laufenburger: Well I don’t know what words have been used but let me clearly state.
David Lieser: Well I don’t know the exact words either.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah okay. That in the interest of public safety it’s reasonable for the
City as part of the future planning to limit access points on, Paul is Minnewashta called a minor
arterial?
Paul Oehme: Actually I think it’s classified as a major arterial.
Mayor Laufenburger: Major arterial so we know that in the long run.
David Lieser: I think they called it a collector, I’m sorry.
Paul Oehme: Or collector I’m sorry. It’s a collector, you’re right.
Mayor Laufenburger: Good call David. But I just, I was uncomfortable hearing your words
saying that you know we’re trying to get them off of Minnewashta Parkway. If development
presents itself and the opportunity is there then we would so I’m sorry for interrupting you.
Please continue
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
55
David Lieser: Yes that’s quite alright. But it seems to me that you look at viable alternatives
and there’s no reason that even the two, if the two are jointly development couldn’t reduce to one
access onto Minnewashta Parkway and that would the purpose as well.
Mayor Laufenburger: Well that would be an improvement.
David Lieser: Disturbing them. It would be an improvement.
Mayor Laufenburger: Right.
David Lieser: Something could be done along the lines of what is done at Rocky Isle Lane and
so there are, there are alternatives. We’re the only ones that seem, that nobody’s really looking
out for because the staff is saying well we have to look out for the Boylan’s and the Kertson’s so
we should do this and we should do that. They made the applicant do a ghost plat showing,
extending our cul-de-sac up across two properties and they pull out some old documents that
were concepts of the City years and years ago. 30 years ago. Now we’ve been on our properties,
some longer than others but none of the people in that neighborhood had any inkling that their
neighborhood, their purchase for which we all figure into the price of what we buy the value of
the privacy and the security. The seclusion for the kids in the neighborhood. And so for that
reason obviously, and I don’t want to go on and on about that because you have a presentation.
Mayor Laufenburger: We do. You presented to the Planning Commission.
David Lieser: Yes. Yes. I would say I’m also somewhat surprised that the Planning
Commission did not recommend the proposal that was recommended by the staff today. We
were there at that meeting. We took notes and I had gone back over the video of what the
Planning Commission said and not that it does us any good necessarily but they clearly said to
strip out of the motion any reference to variances and also any reference to a through street
connecting with Glendale to our properties.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. So Mr. Lieser can you concisely speak what you are presenting on
behalf of the, what you’d say 15 homeowners of Stratford Ridge?
David Lieser: Right. Right.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Do you have a homeowners association?
David Lieser: We do have a homeowners association but I have not been officially appointed to
present this.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay so you’re speaking on behalf of the comments that you’ve heard
from various families is that correct?
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
56
David Lieser: Right, right.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright.
David Lieser: And we’ve had many discussions…
Mayor Laufenburger: Yep I understand and your position is you want, you don’t want to be
disturbed.
David Lieser: We want no change.
Mayor Laufenburger: No change for you in Stratford Ridge.
David Lieser: Right.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
David Lieser: Exactly.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. Thank you Mr. Lieser.
David Lieser: Thank you sir.
Mayor Laufenburger: And thank you for asking me to recognize you. I appreciate that. Alright.
Again this is not a public hearing but is there anybody’s interest who has not been represented
yet this evening? Okay. Council, questions or comments.
Councilman McDonald: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. McDonald. Sure you start.
Councilman McDonald: Sure I’ll start. You know I’ve heard from all sides and everything and I
guess I think the gentleman that, from Stratford Ridge he brought out a very important point and
we’re sitting here tonight and we’re trying to design a subdivision for two pieces of property that
aren’t even in a position to want to have a subdivision and we’re talking about something in the
future and what the staff has done to anticipate that is to go into the property to the north which
would meet all of our requirements and try to impose upon them basically access to the two
pieces of property to the south that again are not under development and I’ve heard nothing
tonight that says there’s any plans at this point to put them under development. And I’m just
wondering if as the Planning Commission may have looked at this that we’re getting wrapped
around the axle over something that’s not even a problem yet and what is actually before us is a
request that would meet all of our regulations for a subdivision and I think that’s what we should
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
57
focus on. Anything about development of the two pieces of property to the south need to be
addressed at a future time when we know what the development is going to look like. At that
point we can look at all the options, whether or not we would grant access off of Minnewashta or
are we going to re-open the thing about Stratford Ridge or maybe even coming off of Country
Oaks which I can understand is not viable but in the future anything would be. So at that point I
guess what I’m willing to look at tonight is just what’s before us and that’s just the development
of the property to the north and right now he meets all of the requirements that we as a city have
placed upon individuals who want to subdivide property so I guess I’m not in favor of putting a
cul-de-sac or putting a right-of-way for a cul-de-sac into the property to the north because again
at this point there’s nothing for it to go to and I think that you have to address what is currently
there and so I would not support which is Concept 2 of taking property from the land to the north
and then the other thing that bothers me about it is you’re also imposing in order for Lots 1 and 2
to work he has somehow got to work a deal with the property to the south to get enough land to
make those viable lots. I think that’s a burden the City should not be putting upon a piece of
property that meets all of it’s requirements as it stands.
Mayor Laufenburger: Thank you Mr. McDonald. Anybody else want to make any comments?
Councilwoman Ryan: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Laufenburger: Sure Councilmember Ryan, go ahead.
Councilwoman Ryan: I agree with Councilman McDonald and he articulated it very well. It’s
very rare when we have developers come in with straight forward plans without requesting
variances and that’s what exactly what you’re doing. I don’t like that we’re asking neighbors
and property owners to come up with alternative designs for their property where they’re going
out to engineers to come up with alternative plans when that’s not part of you know the proposal
that we should be developing or looking at and so I don’t need to go on and on because I think
Councilman McDonald did a great job explaining all of it and if he makes that motion I will be
supporting it.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Anybody else? Councilmember Tjornhom, sure.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I can certainly echo what Councilman McDonald said. For me
though it’s still just a little, I feel a little uneasy about it because there’s still too many
unanswered questions and I don’t like that there’s lack of communication. The developer feels
and staff feels with each other so some issues weren’t ironed out clearly before everyone got here
tonight and that’s what I’m a little worried about because I think one thing, when you’re
planning something you’re planning for the future and so if you’re looking at where access is
going to be in the future this is the time to do it if there’s already a development that’s going to
be on top of the two lots that are kind of in the queue to someday be developed and so by kind of
ironing out that now then we are getting rid of a whole other issue that’s just going to be waiting
for us in the future so I mean I would rather get this ironed out now so everyone knows. The
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
58
developer knows. The homeowners know what they’re dealing with when they talk to
developers or whatever they’re looking to do when they subdivide so this isn’t some gray area
where no one really knows conceptually where things are going to be. So I, while I go along
with what everything Councilman McDonald said I really would like more time to give everyone
to the chance to sit down together and work this out before it moves forward.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, anybody else? Sure Mr. Campion.
Councilman Campion: Everybody else has talked, I think I should too. Now I mean
Councilman McDonald made good points. To impose extra restrictions on a development that
you know is coming forward meeting the ordinances, I would hate to impose an extra hardship
on them for what might happen in the future and I agree that we should address the request that’s
before us.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Either Mr. Fretham or Mr. Ryan, would you come to the podium
just for a second please? So let me ask a question and then you can answer it after I ask it. So
Ms. Tjornhom has brought to our attention that we had, and Mr. Knutson has confirmed that we
have 5 days in order to come up with a response to your application so let me make a formal
request to you. Would you be willing to offer an extension so the council could spend more time
on this? And you can answer it any way you want Mr. Fretham.
Curt Fretham: I was going to answer the question before you asked me but I let you ask the
question anyway. If the situation was different perhaps we could come up with some more time
but we started on this process, I don’t know the timing but I believe it was over a year ago.
Mayor Laufenburger: When you first made application?
Curt Fretham: Well we weren’t allowed, do you want to answer the question?
Kate Aanenson: No…
Curt Fretham: Okay. There was a title issue with our property and so the City said we couldn’t
move forward with our application until the title issue was cleared so we had to go through a
legal process to extinguish the title issue. Now I’ve had this situation in a number of other cities.
It’s not an issue with those cities. They move forward with their application. They put it down
as a condition just like all the other conditions that are listed out and allow you to deal with those
things concurrent so my point is we sat still for a long time.
Mayor Laufenburger: Waiting for the title issue to be resolved?
Curt Fretham: Which should have been able to be done concurrent with this and then if you
wanted more time we had all kinds of extra time because we’re going through a title clearing
process so given that background it’s really hard to say you know we’ve been at this for a year.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
59
Let’s look at it further and then to follow up I don’t see what the benefit of more time is because
it’s not going to change anything. So that’s my answer. We’d like to.
Mayor Laufenburger: So is it yes or no?
Curt Fretham: It’s no more time.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Is your title issue cleared now Mr. Fretham?
Curt Fretham: Yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay good, so you have.
Curt Fretham: You wouldn’t let us to move forward without clearing title.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. And I understand that other cities may not do things the way
Chanhassen does.
Curt Fretham: Right.
Mayor Laufenburger: You know we’ve been a city now for 51 years and.
Curt Fretham: Your way’s the right way.
Mayor Laufenburger: Thank you. Okay thank you Mr. Fretham. I just had to ask that question.
Any other comment? I just would say this. You know if we could wait for a big picture looking
down on these three properties I think, I think if it were possible that all three properties could be
part of a development I think it could be a good one but that’s not the, that’s not where we are.
I’m very sensitive to the Boylan property and the Kertson property but I don’t think that their
options are substantially limited. Yes we have a preference. Let me go to my points here. Yes
we have a preference to take access off of Minnewashta Parkway but frankly if the Boylan and
the Kertson property became a development or a parcel that somebody owned I would, you know
if I was on the council I would certainly entertain a way of allowing access to that property
without doing a cul-de-sac from Stratford Ridge and without a right-of-way from the north so
that is my, I do have a preference but I could be persuaded otherwise for that access. Let’s see, I
do agree that Country Oaks is not a possibility. I’ve spoken with Ms. Dorsey there and though
they are very cooperative with both the Boylan property owners and the Kertson property
owners, I don’t think they want to have a road going through their property. The lake access
does trouble me just a little bit. I think that the 5 properties, as long as those 5 properties have
access through, is it Pleasant Acres is that right Mr. Ryan?
Perry Ryan: Yes sir.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
60
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, as long as they have access through Pleasant Acres I think that’s,
and there’s a relationship between the Pleasant Acres Homeowners Association and the current
owners of the Boylan, or the executor of the Boylan property. As long as that continued I think
that would work out just fine. The, Ms. Strong you said that the stormwater solution is a
condition of, it’s a condition of going through is that right? So you have, if the City does not
give an official okey dokey you still have to work with them in order to come up with a solution
is that correct? Okay. Is the watershed, Minnewashta Creek Watershed District, are they also
part of that solution as well? Okay.
Vanessa Strong: The correct answer is…permit. They’re in that process right now.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. And then the last question is, is there any reason why we
shouldn’t approve this plat with no variance and like it appears the majority of the council
agrees. I don’t think that there’s any reason why we shouldn’t. Come forward with a variance,
or come forward with a plat. A subdivision which is acceptable. Yes it probably is not as
satisfactory to the Boylan property and the Kertson property but that’s not part of the facts that
we have with us at this time so I think that’s kind of the way it is. And I would look for any
further comment or direction from any council member.
Councilman McDonald: Well Mr. Mayor I would make my proposed motion and I’ll start with
what I’ve got here and knowing that what I want to get at is to approve the plat as is without
variances. I’d look for staff and everybody to kind of help me through this but I would ask that
the City Council approves the preliminary plat to subdivide 2.14 acres into 5 lots.
Mayor Laufenburger: Could I ask you to say up to 5?
Councilman McDonald: No. Into 5. That’s what they’re asking for.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Okay.
Councilman McDonald: And then is the outlot part of that?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman McDonald: Okay and one outlot then we’ll skip the rest of it. As shown in plans
stamped Received and then what’s the date? August 29th is still good or?
Kate Aanenson: Yeah it’s still the same date, yeah.
Councilman McDonald: Okay August 29, 2018 and then subject to the conditions of approval
and adopts the Findings of Fact and then does that wrap in what water management wants for
their conditions?
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
61
Mayor Laufenburger: Their findings. That’s part of the Findings of Fact.
Kate Aanenson: Well the Findings of Fact are for the variance so I’m not sure that they’re
applicable.
Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Knutson.
Roger Knutson: Could I suggest you say subject to compliance with the stormwater
requirements.
Kate Aanenson: It’s a condition of approval.
Mayor Laufenburger: The stormwater is a condition of approval.
Roger Knutson: Okay subject to the conditions of approval set forth in the staff report.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah so I just would ask that, I’d have to pull up the Findings of Fact. I can’t
get on my, the Findings of Fact I believe were for the variance so they might not be.
Roger Knutson: Those are the only Findings in the record, yes.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah so they would be moot then correct?
Roger Knutson: You’re not adopting those Findings.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah or could we bring them back at the next meeting, just the adoption if we
wanted to modify those?
Roger Knutson: Well you’re approving it tonight subject to the conditions in the staff report
without a requirement for a variance and noting that there will be no extension of that cul-de-sac.
Councilman McDonald: Okay.
Mayor Laufenburger: So essentially what you’re saying Mr. McDonald, you’re proposing a
motion that does not include a variance to allow a 50 foot public right-of-way. Everything else is
in place.
Councilman McDonald: Correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: Conditions of approval period.
Councilman McDonald: Correct.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
62
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright. Council are you comfortable with this motion? Alright. I’m
looking for a second.
Councilwoman Ryan: Second.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright, thank you Councilmember Ryan. Is there any further discussion?
Just want to clarify Ms. Aanenson the Findings of Fact that you mentioned, those are Findings of
Fact associated with the variance is that correct?
Kate Aanenson: Could I just, I’ve got it on the computer here if you just give me a second. I
couldn’t get onto my, these are the Findings of Fact so part of them read, so if we could just
modify these really quickly on the fly here. So Findings of Fact were that included. Pardon me?
So except for, so if we could approve those except for everything from the variances. That
would be struck from the Findings of Fact.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay Findings of Fact through G.
Kate Aanenson: Correct and those would apply to the subdivision so we would just take out the
portion that applies to the variance and then it would be, and then add the recommendation.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: If that makes sense.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. So the motion that Mr. McDonald made is that the City Council
approves a preliminary plat to subdivide 2.14 acres into 5 lots and one outlot.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Laufenburger: As shown in plans stamped Received August 29, 2018 subject to the
conditions of approval and adopt the Findings of Facts through item G.
Kate Aanenson: G, correct. Yep.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright. Councilmember you okay with that second on that
Councilmember Ryan?
Councilwoman Ryan: Yes.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Can I just clarify the date too. That date I believe was actually the October 2nd
date was on the Findings of Fact and I’m not sure if that’s really the set of plans.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
63
Curt Fretham: No it’s not.
Perry Ryan: That was my question. I just wanted to, since we haven’t seen the Findings of Fact
on our current plan set I just want to make sure there’s no Findings of Fact that have to deal with
a cul-de-sac or…
Kate Aanenson: No. That’s what I just took off.
Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah so to go through.
Perry Ryan: Okay so I don’t.
Kate Aanenson: That’s what I was clarifying. I want to make sure it was correct so I pulled it
off.
Perry Ryan: Okay, good. Alright.
Kate Aanenson: The only thing I’m saying on it.
Todd Gerhardt: Kate why don’t you show the Findings of Fact.
Kate Aanenson: So this is them. If I can blow that up a little bit.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay just leave it like that for right now. Can you read that Mr. Ryan?
Curt Fretham: If you could scroll up to the…
Mayor Laufenburger: Well we’re all going to read it kind of.
Kate Aanenson: There you go thank you.
Mayor Laufenburger: You can leave it that size. Just get rid of that black thing.
Perry Ryan: As it shows number 4.
Mayor Laufenburger: She’s going to scroll it down. Okay. Now just scroll slowly.
Kate Aanenson: So yep, so now we’ve got the subdivision findings.
Perry Ryan: So number 4 goes away too then because that was the first findings have to do with
the cul-de-sac?
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
64
Kate Aanenson: That’s fine, that can be struck. Number 4. Subdivision directs the Planning
Commission to consider seven possible.
Mayor Laufenburger: Okay here’s what we’re going to do. We’re just going to count on city
staff and the property owner to work together to ensure that these Findings of Facts properly
reflect the sentiment of the council. Okay, alright?
Kate Aanenson: Yeah and I wanted to make sure that was clear too so.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright. Any further discussion?
Councilman McDonald moved, Councilwoman Ryan seconded that the City Council
approves the preliminary plat to subdivide 2.14 acres into five (5) lots and one outlot as
shown in plans stamped Received August 29, 2018, subject to the following conditions and
adoption of the Findings of Fact through item (g) and Decision:
SUBDIVISION
Engineering:
1. Deleted.
2. Deleted.
3. Provide ROW over the entirety of the trail along the west side of Minnewashta Parkway.
4. The survey of existing conditions does not indicate ROW between Glendale Drive and to
the south for approximately 100 feet.
5. No stationing is shown in the plan set.
6. The drawing and utility easements are shown only on the plat. They should also be
conveyed on the site plan.
7. Indicate surface water drainage flow arrows on the grading plan.
8. Provide existing and proposed elevations at the following locations: each lot corner, top
of curb or centerline of the street at each lot line extension, center of proposed driveway
at the curb or edge of the road.
9. Additional conditions will be identified after the developer has an opportunity to revise
the design based upon the current conditions that are considered to be major in nature as
they will require significant changes to the design.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
65
Water Resources:
1. Private stormwater best management practices (BMPs) are not permitted in public
drainage and utility easements. An encroachment agreement will be required for the
private swale within all side yard drainage and utility easements.
2. Easements for private stormwater treatment devices must be recorded against the
properties using the city’s private stormwater easement template and approved by the
City Engineer.
3. A Homeowners Association (HOA) encompassing all lots is required to ensure the
technical expertise and a funding mechanism for the operation and maintenance of
stormwater treatment devices is ensured in perpetuity.
4. Operation and maintenance of private stormwater BMPs is required in perpetuity. An
operation and maintenance plan must be approved by the Water Resources Coordinator
and recorded against the properties that details the HOA’s permanent inspection,
maintenance, and funding mechanism that ensures stormwater BMPs will function as
designed.
5. To ensure stormwater treatment devices function as designed, the developer is
responsible for the operation, maintenance, and performance of all stormwater
improvements including vegetation, structures, soils, inspections, and erosion/sediment
control for the first five years after project completion. After the first five years,
responsibility shall transfer to the HOA. The developer is responsible for ensuring all
stormwater improvements are functioning as designed at the end of the first five years. If
stormwater improvements are not functioning as designed at the end of the first five
years, as determined by the City Engineer, than the developer shall remain responsible
for all operation and maintenance until devices are functioning as designed.
6. Infiltration/filtration basins must be located a minimum of 10’ from the building envelope
of any primary structure.
7. If an emergency overflow route is adjacent to the property the lowest building opening
must be a minimum of one foot above the emergency overflow (City Code Sec. 19-144).
All EOFs routing onto this adjacent property must be 1’ below the lowest floor opening.
Developer proposes a EOF at elevation 972’ on Lot 5 that meets this requirement.
8. EOF routes shall not create a hazard or nuisance condition onto adjacent property (City
Code Sec. 7-78).
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
66
9. SWPPP contact must be identified.
10. Developer must provide an erosion and sediment control plan, and dewatering plan
approved by the Water Resources Coordinator.
11. Maximum impervious per lot is 25%.
12. All pervious surfaces require six inches of topsoil and 18 inches of decompaction.
Topsoil shall be tested and approved b y the Water Resources Coordinator.
13. The developer shall provide an updated Hydrocad model and stormwater management
plan that is consistent with and supports the engineered plans and geotechnical report.
14. The geotechnical report identifies the presence of groundwater at 972 elevation on Lot 5
(SB-1). There must be three feet of separation between the bottom elevation of
stormwater infiltration devices and the water table. Based on the geotechnical report, the
bottom elevation for an infiltration basin on Lot 5 can be no lower than elevation 975.
The proposed “pond” will need to be lined if less than 3’ of separation from seasonal high
water table.
15. The geotechnical report identifies moderately slow permeability of soils. Any infiltration
swales must be sized to allow no more than 6” of ponding depth and drawdown within
24-48 hours.
16. Soil borings and infiltration tests must be performed within the perimeter of all ponds and
infiltration device locations prior to final approval.
17. Design plans must be provided for all vegetated BMPs including contours, grading, inlet
and outlet structures, underdrains, filtration media/amended soils, location and quantities
of all species used. Ecotype must be native or approved native hybrid.
18. Details must be provided and approved for all stormwater treatment devices.
19. The proposed redevelopment requires Minnehaha Creek Watershed District (MCWD)
development review and permits.
20. It is the applicant’s responsibility to ensure and submit proof that permits are received
from all other agencies with jurisdiction over the project (i.e. Army Corps of Engineers,
DNR, MnDOT, Carver County, MCWD, Board of Water and Soil Resources, PCA, etc.)
prior to the City issuing permits.
21. Project must meet all stormwater requirements of the city and the MCWD.
Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018
67
22. Project will require stormwater management fees associated with city development
review and permitting process. Fees can be estimated but cannot be accurately calculated
until approvals have been received from the MCWD.
23. The site plan must identify the ability to install a future stormwater pipe that could
connect the development to a regional pond southeast of the development.
24.The development must use Chanhassen Standard Specifications and Detail Plates.
Parks:
1. In lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction, full park dedication fees shall be
collected at the rate in force at the time of final plat approval. At today’s rate, these fees
would total $29,000 (five lots x $5,800 per lot).
Environmental Resources Coordinator:
1. The minimum number of overstory trees required to be planted in the development is 41.
2. Tree preservation fencing shall be installed around existing trees to be saved prior to any
construction activities and remain installed until completion.
3. The applicant shall install the required buffer yard plantings on Lot 5 along Minnewashta
Parkway.
All voted in favor, except for Councilwoman Tjornhom who opposed, and the motion
carried with a vote of 4 to 1.
Mayor Laufenburger: That motion carries 4-1. Councilmember Tjornhom against. Alright,
thank you very much staff and Mr. Fretham, Mr. Ryan, Mr. Lieser, Ms. Moore and Mr. Kertson.
I wish you all the best of luck. That brings us to our next item on the agenda which is. This is
item H-2 which is Resolution 2018-52. Consider modifying a Stipulation Agreement for the
Mustard Seed Garden Center, Halla Nursery Incorporated. Could I ask you, thank you very
much. Well let’s just take a, Nann we’re going to take a 3 minute break here.
The City Council took a short recess at this point in the meeting.
Mayor Laufenburger: Alright following a brief recess we are reconvene as a council meeting on
Monday, October 22nd. Our next item is item H-2.
CONSIDER MODIFYING STIPULATION AGREEMENT FOR THE MUSTARD SEED
(HALLA NURSERY, INC.).
Mayor Laufenburger: Now let’s begin with a staff report.