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CC Minutes 10-22-18Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 67 22. Project will require stormwater management fees associated with city development review and permitting process. Fees can be estimated but cannot be accurately calculated until approvals have been received from the MCWD. 23. The site plan must identify the ability to install a future stormwater pipe that could connect the development to a regional pond southeast of the development. 24.The development must use Chanhassen Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. Parks: 1. In lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction, full park dedication fees shall be collected at the rate in force at the time of final plat approval. At today’s rate, these fees would total $29,000 (five lots x $5,800 per lot). Environmental Resources Coordinator: 1. The minimum number of overstory trees required to be planted in the development is 41. 2. Tree preservation fencing shall be installed around existing trees to be saved prior to any construction activities and remain installed until completion. 3. The applicant shall install the required buffer yard plantings on Lot 5 along Minnewashta Parkway. All voted in favor, except for Councilwoman Tjornhom who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Mayor Laufenburger: That motion carries 4-1. Councilmember Tjornhom against. Alright, thank you very much staff and Mr. Fretham, Mr. Ryan, Mr. Lieser, Ms. Moore and Mr. Kertson. I wish you all the best of luck. That brings us to our next item on the agenda which is. This is item H-2 which is Resolution 2018-52. Consider modifying a Stipulation Agreement for the Mustard Seed Garden Center, Halla Nursery Incorporated. Could I ask you, thank you very much. Well let’s just take a, Nann we’re going to take a 3 minute break here. The City Council took a short recess at this point in the meeting. Mayor Laufenburger: Alright following a brief recess we are reconvene as a council meeting on Monday, October 22nd. Our next item is item H-2. CONSIDER MODIFYING STIPULATION AGREEMENT FOR THE MUSTARD SEED (HALLA NURSERY, INC.). Mayor Laufenburger: Now let’s begin with a staff report. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 68 MacKenzie Walters: Yep before I jump into that I’m going to pass out a letter we received from Kelly Lorenz on behalf of the Mustard Seed. It’s essentially an Affidavit saying that the items Mr. Halla is requesting to be added to his list of permitted sales items are to her recollection have been sold on the property consistently from 1997. Got the email about middle of the day today so didn’t have time to add it to any of the staff report stuff but printed off a copy for all of you so you could look at it and see it. That being said I’ll get started. As mentioned this is a resolution to consider amending the Stipulation Agreement that governs the use of the Mustard Seed property and that property is located at 10000 Great Plains Boulevard. It’s zoned Agricultural Estate. Just to provide some neighborhood context, there are golf courses to the east and to the west. The surrounding land uses are predominantly larger lot residential. Most of these are a little over an acre. These ones tend to be 2 acres or more. And the Agricultural Estate zoning, I did not list every use. I did include those as an attachment to the staff report but I put here the uses that are most relevant to the discussion we’ll be having tonight. A2 allows for agriculture as a permitted use. It allows for roadside stands as a permitted accessory use. Wholesale nurseries as an interim use. Petting farms as an interim use. It is not, the district is not intended for commercial and retail use and it does not list temporary events as a permitted accessory use. The property in question is governed by a Stipulation Agreement. It is a wholesale nursery and the Stipulation Agreement limits the permitted uses on the property to those allowed by the agricultural estate zoning and those expressly listed in the Stipulation Agreement. The Stipulation Agreement strictly prohibits retail except as expressly allowed in the Stipulation Agreement so the Stipulation Agreement in Exhibit B lists a number of products by name that are allowed to be sold on the property and then corresponds them to different areas labeled on this map of the property which states what can be sold where. The Stipulation Agreement does not allow for the expansion of retail sales or an expansion to the list of products to be sold on the property without prior consent by the City. And as I mentioned each area of the property and each building it tends to be limited to a specific use. So for example Area R here and here is listed as limited to the storage, growing and outdoor display of plant material or supplies on pallets or wheels. So the Stipulation Agreement is fairly specific and provides a high level of specification as to what should be going on at each individual portion of the property. We did send out a notification on this hearing. We got a couple phone calls from the surrounding property owners. I don’t believe any of them were planning to attend but they did ask that I relay their comments. They were all curious about what was being proposed. Two asked that I convey to the council concerns about the potential for increased traffic generation along Great Plains Boulevard. They wanted to make sure that if events were allowed in any capacity that staff took into account the potential to generate traffic. They stated that there are times when it’s very difficult to access Creekwood due to the large amount of traffic that’s on the road and they’re worried that you know regular events like larger farmers market or craft fairs might exacerbate that issue. One resident expressed concern that the site would become a strip mall or another commercial use. I clarified that that was not what was being requested nor was that being considered but I just, I said I would pass it along so I have. No one expressed concerns with any of the proposed items that are being proposed to add to the Exhibit B’s list of products to be sold. So we went back and forth with Mr. Halla on a couple different iterations of his Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 69 request. I think I’ve kind of simplified it to the initial and then where both parties ended up at without going through all of the intermediate ones. Initially Mr. Halla requested that accessories be added to the clothing category. Food, drinks and snacks be added. Handicraft. Personal care products. Gifts. Decorations and then food trucks corresponding to a list of annual events that he provided staff. Staff’s proposal was that adding the accessories and then also providing in the Exhibit B that governs the property it dictates where each item can be sold so staff looked at what was currently being allowed in the different areas and then added an appropriate number that we thought corresponded. Staff proposed vending machines for snacks and drinks. Staff was not concerned at all with the handicrafts, personal care products, gifts and decorations. Staff proposed that food trucks rather than being linked to a very expansive list of events be linked to the City’s special event permitting process which is how that type of use on other properties and other businesses is governed in the city. Mr. Halla’s provided us with, requested that different zones be allowed to give him a little more flexibility in terms of where the products were being sold. Staff didn’t have any objection to you know expanding it from just being the garden center to garden center and greenhouse and things of that nature. He is also requesting that the council allow agricultural products and that should read produce. My apologies. I did not catch that to the list. Staff’s revision to that is pre-packaged snacks and non-alcoholic beverages and we can go into what some of the concerns are with that more expansive category. So going through the list of requested products, the reason why staff made the recommendations they did is when we looked at the items like handicrafts, gifts, decorations, accessories, those are substantially similar to what is currently permitted. There’s a category that’s ornamental items. Miscellaneous items, plants or materials for the aesthetic practical improvement or use of indoor and outdoor living spaces. Arguably handicraft, gifts, decorations could all be argued to already fall under those categories so we didn’t see that as qualitatively expanding the retail component of the garden center that was already present in the Stipulation Agreement. Personal care products arguably are a little more of an expansion but again very compatible to the small household items currently listed in the Stipulation Agreement and allowed. Food, drinks and snacks staff feels is more of a qualitative expansion but we do feel that incidental items you know pre-packaged snacks. Letting someone buy a bottle of Coke there, things like that is not going to significantly change again the scale of the retail component. It’s not a qualitative shift. The revised request of agricultural products and produce we feel would be that qualitative shift. We understand that you know the property does have an agricultural component and it is allowed to sell the goods that are grown on the property. Nothing that would be done with the Stipulation Agreement would prevent them from, if they grew tomatoes they could sell tomatoes there. Nothing would change that. However it would prevent off site materials and produce from being sold on site. So the concern there is the potential for a very large grocery or food sales component to be present which is not in any way indicated by the Stipulation Agreement and the controls on what retail goods were listed as permissible on site. Regarding the request to have food trucks and other events. The City’s special event ordinance basically says that an event that is a promotion, product demonstration, a thing of that nature is defined as a temporary event so we have required different businesses within the city when they want to have a food truck on their property to promote business we have consistently required them to get a temporary outdoor event permit. An example would be when the Oscar Meyer Weiner Mobile was in town a few months ago we Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 70 made Lunds get a temporary event permit for that so. Under the zoning code and Stipulation Agreement temporary events are not allowed in the agricultural estate zoning. However staff feels that temporary event permit process does provide sufficient oversights and limits to prevent any negative impacts and do believe that it’s appropriate to allow Mr. Halla the same opportunity to have food trucks and do those type of promotionals as other businesses in the city that are afforded. And that’s why staff is proposing that be added to the list of permitted uses. That being said staff would subjected to the temporary event permit process so that it’s given the same oversight as every other business in the city gets for those type of requests. With that being said I will go into as much additional detail as you would like. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. In just a few minutes I’m going to invite Mr. Halla up to talk about his request but are there any questions from council to staff? Councilwoman Tjornhom: I have one. Mayor Laufenburger: Go ahead Councilmember Tjornhom. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Can you go back to the stipulations or the, go back. No, no, no, I’m sorry. I’m giving you the bad direction. When I say go back I mean like that slide, keep going down. MacKenzie Walters: Like this direction? Councilwoman Tjornhom: Stop. MacKenzie Walters: Okay. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Okay, I want to talk about the agricultural products and produce. If I heard you correctly when you were talking about your reasoning for you know why you agreed with some things and why disagreed with some things. With the agricultural products and produce you were concerned about a grocery store? MacKenzie Walters: So essentially if I take, and I understand from what Mr. Halla said, you know they don’t have any intention to have a substantial food sales or grocery but let’s say 10, 15, 20 years, whenever down the line someone else acquires it and I acquire it with an amended list of products and I see agricultural products and produce. That covers anything grown. There is absolutely no reason I couldn’t take that and say okay, out of the garden center I am running a farm to table grocery and that’s my new business model because that’s now a permitted sales use. Councilwoman Tjornhom: So when you go to the farmers market right here at City Hall parking lot what regulation or stipulation do they have to be able to do that? Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 71 MacKenzie Walters: Yep so the difference would be one a matter of zoning. The City Hall farmers market is located in office and institutional zoning. It would be, so because our special events permit says events hosted you know in association and in sponsorship with the city do not require a permit, we don’t make that farmers market go through the permitting process but what allows it there is the fact that seasonal sales are allowed in office and institutional districts which is what that area of the city is. And because it’s a farmers market it doesn’t have that same restriction that it has to be grown on the property. For instance if Mr. Halla were to partner with commercial business and that commercial business was to apply for a seasonal sales permit to feature agricultural produce he grew and other farmers grew, they would be able to do that there in a commercial district. Mayor Laufenburger: There at the Mustard Seed? MacKenzie Walters: Yeah, not the Mustard Seed sorry. If it was a property zoned commercial. Mayor Laufenburger: Oh okay, like the corner of Crossroads. MacKenzie Walters: Crossroads where the pumpkin patch is would be a great example of a similar arrangement yep. Mayor Laufenburger: So Mr. Halla could make, enter into a new agreement with a commercial entity and be part of it but it couldn’t take place on the Mustard Seed property. MacKenzie Walters: Right because the A2 zoning does not allow for special and temporary events as a permitted accessory use. Councilwoman Tjornhom: And I guess I’m, this just doesn’t make a lot of I guess common sense to me. You’re at a garden center. You have all sorts of other things for sale. You know if I can’t go to Mr. Halla’s property and buy a gourd or a pumpkin because he didn’t grow it there, yet I can go across the street and buy it, it just to me doesn’t make a lot of common sense. Is there a way that he could be allowed to do that because I know no one wants to have him put up a strip mall with you know 7-11’s and all that stuff. No one wants that but is there a way he can have a conditional use permit to have a farmers market from a certain time that then doesn’t carry on with the property forever. It just, it just stays with the property until it’s sold and then it’s all null and void. Roger Knutson: Mayor, I can maybe respond. You certainly could allow that amending what’s allowed in the agricultural estate district. You could amend the zoning ordinance. I’m not suggesting that’s a good or bad idea but. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Okay. I mean like I said to me it just, I was trying to connect dots and make sense of it all. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 72 Todd Gerhardt: Two different zonings. It’s the two different dots. One’s square. One’s round. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Right. Right no I get that. One’s commercial and one’s but still when they’re just, you can hop across the line and you can do it there but you can’t do it there. It just. Todd Gerhardt: I mean if you want to allow pumpkins and gourds period you know that’s fine but you can’t use a broad brush of saying agricultural products because is a large list. Mayor Laufenburger: But if the pumpkin or gourd was grown on this property then he could sell it in the equivalent of a roadside stand because a roadside stand is a permitted use. Roger Knutson: Correct. Mayor Laufenburger: There. So if he grows it there. Councilwoman Tjornhom: No I totally understand that. I get it. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Alright you’re talking about it but somebody, if he brings in a pallet load of. Councilwoman Tjornhom: I’m moving beyond government and just thinking just as a normal person and thinking. Mayor Laufenburger: I understand. I understand. Councilwoman Tjornhom: You know it just makes sense. Let the guy sell some vegetables during the summer but yes. Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Campion. Councilman Campion: I have a quick question along the similar lines. Is there a simple zoning change that could be made so that we wouldn’t need to stipulate where he can sell snacks or a Coke or vegetables? MacKenzie Walters: So yeah again this property is unique in the city because the A2 zoning district as written would not permit, well any of the retail goods that are sold on the property. This deals back to and Mr. Knutson has a lot more background on this than I do but the short story would be in ’94 Mr. Halla put up a building. Began selling retail goods out of it. There was litigation and over a 3 year period eventually where arrived was the 1997 Stipulation Agreement that said basically these items may be sold but you know we’re recognizing it as a non-conformity. We’re not recognizing any other existing grandfathering. These items and these items alone may be permitted on this property. And so in, if I were for instance to acquire Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 73 a larger A2 site I would not be able to sell items like this on my property. Did that help at all or not at all? Councilman Campion: I understand what you’re saying. I think this site is a little unique based on what we know is coming forward with the 101 realignment and all that as well. Roger Knutson: Maybe I’m repeating myself but one possibility for you is to amend the, to rezone the property if you choose to. I’m not suggesting that’s a good idea but you certainly. Or you could do a PUD. Mayor Laufenburger: Mr. Campion I’m not sure I understand what you said about the impending movement of 101. Councilman Campion: I understand from speaking to Mr. Halla that the realignment of 101 you know is, will likely affect his business and the traffic to it. When you’re doing construction in front of a business and it’s harder to get in there. Less people tend to visit the business and I understood you know, I don’t want to tell his story for him but I understand how construction affects businesses when it happens right in front of them and if there are reasonable things we can do to make it easier for him to do business. I’m open to listening to it. Mayor Laufenburger: Well what we have here is, I believe and Mr. Walters correct me if I’m wrong, we’re talking about 2 paragraphs in the stipulation agreement that are going to be modified, is that correct? MacKenzie Walters: Yes. Mayor Laufenburger: Paragraph 1 and paragraph 2. That’s what Mr. Halla essentially is requesting. MacKenzie Walters: I believe paragraph 1 and then Exhibit B would be modified. Mayor Laufenburger: Well paragraph 2 makes reference to Exhibit B. MacKenzie Walters: Yes sorry, yeah. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay yeah, so those are the two areas and those two areas, you’re in agreement with Mr. Halla in everything except for this phrase agricultural food products is that correct? MacKenzie Walters: That’s my understanding yes. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay so we’re going to get that from Mr. Halla in just a second. Is thee any other council member questions to staff? Go ahead Councilmember Ryan. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 74 Councilwoman Ryan: Would you just explain the asterisks? So the revised request of agricultural products and produce would not be required but it does allow retail and grocery food sales? MacKenzie Walters: Ah yes. So what I’m saying is were it to be amended as Mr. Halla’s requesting using that language, it wouldn’t change how goods grown on site are treated. They’re already allowed but it would theoretically again were someone interested in doing it you could use it to sell any agricultural produce or product on it were it be adopted with that amendment and that language. Councilwoman Ryan: And can we not like we have with the other you know detailed list of products can we not create a detailed list of what agricultural products and produce we would allow? MacKenzie Walters: If that’s the route the council wishes to go we can work with Mr. Halla to come up with an exhaustive list and bring that back for you absolutely. Mayor Laufenburger: Meat products. That’s an agricultural product isn’t it? MacKenzie Walters: It is. Mayor Laufenburger: And does he want to sell meat products? MacKenzie Walters: My understanding is some meat products are available on site. Mayor Laufenburger: As snacks? MacKenzie Walters: I will let him provide that. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, okay. Okay. Councilwoman Ryan: Well we already have a list of some of the things but if there’s specific, you want to talk about pumpkins and gourds and that’s what he wants to sell. Councilwoman Tjornhom: No I’m not…I just think it’s having to list off 500 things he can do just seems a tedious. Councilwoman Ryan: Well not if he wants to, it would be Mr. Halla’s. Councilwoman Tjornhom: No I agree, I agree. Councilwoman Ryan: Responsibility. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 75 Mayor Laufenburger: This is a. Councilman Campion: She’s agreeing with you. Mayor Laufenburger: I think we should hear from Mr. Halla. Just as Mr. McDonald go ahead. Before we hear from Mr. Halla. Councilman McDonald: Can you go to the list of potential I guess complaints you got from people? MacKenzie Walters: The yeah. Councilman McDonald: Yeah. Okay is he trying to, I mean how often do we have these events there with the food truck? MacKenzie Walters: And I think that’s part of staff’s concern is we don’t have a clear picture of what’s going on on the site and that’s one of the reasons why we would like to use you know the same permitting process and approval process we use for other businesses because then we know how often things are being done. What the impact is and again it creates that level playing field. Councilman McDonald: Okay well let me ask you about worried about farmers markets, craft fairs being held every weekend. Is that what’s going on down there? MacKenzie Walters: I again would defer to Mr. Halla in terms of what he, again I think you saw in the attachment he provided the list of annual events. That is what staff received when we asked for clarification as to what events were going on and we were not given increased clarity when we requested for it. Councilman McDonald: Okay then I guess my questions would be for Mr. Halla. MacKenzie Walters: Yeah okay, sorry. Councilman McDonald: So I’ll yield. Mayor Laufenburger: There is one other thing and that is, in his listing of annual events he talks about alcohol and you specifically do not mention alcohol in, or your recommendation is no alcohol is that correct? MacKenzie Walters: Yes. Mayor Laufenburger: I just want to make sure I get that part properly. Yeah pre-packaged snacks and non-alcoholic beverages. Okay. And Mr. Halla provided a document that said Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 76 alcohol if any is only served as legally allowed by law. All legal and applicable rules and ordinances obeyed per law and stipulation of use. So in this particular case alcohol is not listed under Item B of the stipulation agreement but he says he’s complying with all applicable laws. Todd Gerhardt: …alcohol isn’t an allowed sale in an agricultural district. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. And just for clarification I read Mr. Lorenz’s note and I think that from my standpoint I think she’s just trying to say if I sold anything that was not on the list I didn’t purposely break the law. I think that’s what she was saying. Did any of you get anything else out of this? Councilman McDonald: No, that’s about what I got. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright and I appreciate her doing that. She’s simply saying I was just trying to generate business. Okay. I think Mr. Halla we need to hear from you if you wouldn’t mind. Are you prepared to appear before the council? Mark Halla: I am, thank you. Mayor Laufenburger: Alright state your name and address please. Mark Halla: Mark Halla, 6055 Highway 212, Dahlgren Township. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Mark Halla: I thought this was going to be the easiest thing of your night. I’m sorry. It sounds like it might. Mayor Laufenburger: It still might be. Mark Halla: Maybe it’s not. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. One thing I’ll point out is that our family bought this property back in 1962 so the City was still a township at that time. There was no A2 zoning. It was just, we were here and we were doing some stuff and in 1994 as MacKenzie mentioned we built another building. Took down a building. Built another building near it’s place and accentuated some of the retail sales that were already happening through a better structure. We had contacted the building department and said do we need a building permit to build this agricultural building. He said what are you doing? We’re going to sell landscape and horticultural supplies. No you don’t need one. Ended up that the City thought we needed one. They sued us. Put a stop work order. Cease and Desist. We counter sued. Three years later we come up with a Stipulation of Use and we go through an exhaustive process of these are all the things that you are now legally allowed to sell. The City handled that really well. Basically the attorney said you create the list. Whatever it is we’ll accept it. In the process of doing that list we missed some things. There’s some things that we’ve been selling and I Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 77 think that’s what Kelly Lorenz mentioned and alluded to. She happened to have been hired in 1997. Same time that this stipulation was done. Everything that we are requesting approval for are things, are product lines that we’ve been selling since before 1997 so we’re not asking for any additional items. We’re not asking for any additional retail. We’re just saying you know what, there were some things that we missed in this list and now because it’s come to our attention that some people staff wise have been very literal in reading the list, there are some things that we were doing that don’t qualify. Mayor Laufenburger: Well just let me clarify one thing Mr. Halla. This happened before any of us were on the council. The council has a responsibility to essentially enforce and comply, you know we had some compliance as did you in accordance with a Stipulation Agreement. Mark Halla: Absolutely. Mayor Laufenburger: And so if we were not complying with the Stipulation Agreement that’s our fault. If you’re not complying with the Stipulation Agreement that’s your fault. Mark Halla: That’s correct and I’ll take full responsibility for that. That’s why I’m here. Because you feel I’m not in compliance. I do feel I’m in compliance and if you say that I’m not then we’ll talk about that. Mayor Laufenburger: Well I think, I think the position of the staff is, at least right now is that some of the things that you’re selling are not in compliance and in accordance with the Stipulation Agreement this council has the ability to modify that agreement so, to allow changes. Whatever those changes are. Is that correct Mr. Knutson? We can change that. Mark Halla: Yep absolutely and that’s why I’m here basically at your mercy to say hey we have a disagreement. I think that it’s okay to have a pop machine and a snack machine. Staff says no. That’s not on your list of items that you’re allowed to sell and I say you’re absolutely right MacKenzie. It’s not on my list. I screwed up. I should have caught that and said I never even thought that I should have put a snack machine and a pop machine on my list so I’m coming to you saying would you present some mercy and consider allowing us to have these extra items. They are items that we simply missed. Most of which are actually covered if you really play out the nuances of things, I think they’re there. The agricultural food products and produce, I mean we’re talking like maple syrup, honey, pumpkins, herbs, spices. How about some canned goods. These are things that we’ve currently been selling that I’m told now staff believes are in violation of our Stipulation of Use. It seems to me that that’s a normal thing to be sold at a garden center and I’d like to have you consider adding it to our Stipulation of Use so that we can continue doing that. Fruits, nuts, vegetables. You can go buy pumpkins at places that they’re not produced there. They’re not grown there. It’s agricultural land where a roadside stand’s happening but it wasn’t grown at that stand. It was brought to that stand. In the A2 district which didn’t exist when we owned the property they still allow roadside stands where I can sell all of these items even though they weren’t produced on the property. I believe that’s part of Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 78 your zoning. I’m a retail garden center that already has traffic. Already has a business. We do landscaping. I’m simply asking you to look at it and go you know what, we don’t see the harm that’s coming from that. We’re pretty much an agricultural business. I’ve been told by staff that we, we’re under the impression that all agriculturally allowed zoning allowed items would apply to our business. That was my understanding. That if you could do it under agricultural rule, you could do it here. I was told by staff that my interpretation is incorrect. That I can’t even do what’s allowed in the A2 district. I can only do what’s allowed on the Stipulation of Use. That may or may not be accurate. It doesn’t feel like that makes common sense to me. We have no desire to be a grocery so maybe if the thing is agricultural food products and produce but you can’t be a grocery store. We would put an asterisk and fix that. I don’t understand the concern and it’s not my intent whatsoever but I would like to be able to do what we’re doing. We do sell meat products. In fact we sell hotdogs and sometimes we have CSA’s and they have pork products and they have elk products and sometimes bison and they have people come to our garden center to pick them up. Mayor Laufenburger: What’s a CSA? Mark Halla: A Community Supported Agricultural program. That seems to be common. It’s very similar to the farmers market that’s happening right here. People bring in their agriculturally produced items, mostly from Carver County. We contract out our honey growing and most of it’s within 2 to 3 miles of here and we sell 200 pounds of honey a year. It’s not all produced on our site because the hives that we had all got killed by the golf course and their insecticides so we have other people producing the honey and we sell it as much as we can possibly produce. That’s a normal thing. I’d like to be able to continue doing that but it’s not on my list and it’s considered a food product. The rest of the items are all good. As far as alcohol, Mayor you mentioned that. We have catered events sometimes where we will have a ladies night or something like that and we have a caterer with a liquor license who’s allowed to serve alcohol. That I don’t believe is in violation and that’s something that we’ve been doing since as far as I remember. We don’t sell alcohol. We give away a glass of wine to ladies when they’re shopping. Sometimes two. Mayor Laufenburger: But you don’t do that. Mark Halla: We have a licensed caterer who is, were hired to come in and do that. We don’t have a liquor license. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Todd Gerhardt: …get a permit to serve alcohol and the A2 is not a permitted area to sell alcohol. Mark Halla: We don’t sell alcohol. I didn’t mean to intend that we sell alcohol. Well and maybe that’s the rule. If it says you can’t serve. My understanding is that if I want to go out with the guys and have a beer that it’s okay. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 79 Councilman McDonald: Can you give it away? Mark Halla: That’s what we’ve been doing so if that’s a violation then I hear. Todd Gerhardt: I said you can’t sell alcohol. I didn’t say you couldn’t have a beer on site. Mark Halla: No but I’m just saying if I, when we have our events and it’s served by a licensed person we’re not charging for it. But we still have someone that’s licensed to serve. Mayor Laufenburger: Alright. Mark Halla: And that’s not a common deal. Mayor Laufenburger: Any other comments? Mark Halla: No, thank you for hearing me out. Mayor Laufenburger: So your, do I understand correctly that you’re in support of the resolution with one exception and that is you would like to have agricultural products and produce as an acceptable item for sale. Mark Halla: That’s correct. Mayor Laufenburger: Everything else is acceptable? Mark Halla: Well let me just mention the food trucks. There’s two times a year that we’ve done food trucks. This year we did four. So four different times that we did food trucks. That’s where this all started. I want to give MacKenzie credit because he sent us a letter and said you’re not allowed to do food trucks. Very, very nice letter. Very professional. It wasn’t threatening. It was just like we’re not going to stop your event. We’re not going to be hard to deal with but come talk to us and let’s figure this out. I appreciated that. Mayor Laufenburger: And did he ask you to do an event permit? Mark Halla: Yeah. Well I came in and talked with him right and I was intending to meet with Kate and I thought we were going to talk through things. She got called away and we talked about and that’s when this all came up and he said well you’re not even allowed to sell food based on your Stipulation of Use. You’re not even allowed to sell food and I was like okay, I’m really confused then because I’ve been doing that a lot because I consider all these things food products so that was what stemmed me saying well maybe we need to go to the council as permitted by the Stipulation and ask for you to allow that. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 80 Mayor Laufenburger: So Mark. Mark Halla: The food trucks was asked by the way. Todd asked me to put that on my request because I didn’t feel the need to do that. I think that the food truck ordinance from what I heard from staff was that food trucks are not allowed on public property without an event permit. Mayor Laufenburger: Right. Mark Halla: My, I was told that that ordinance was not written very well and because it wasn’t written very well that the over arching goal of that ordinance was to prevent people from having food trucks without an event permit so even though it’s on private property with that food truck I needed to get an event permit. It’s not ever something I thought that I needed. Mayor Laufenburger: So when you started selling food what category of product on the permitted products list did you think food fell under? Mark Halla: I think that we believe that agricultural produce being sold from a garden center was never something we needed to address. I sell pumpkins right. By the Stipulation I don’t think pumpkins is listed. Mayor Laufenburger: So what I’m wondering is, and I don’t dispute that you have grown into some of these products since 1997 okay but what I’m wondering is, when you started selling products knowing that this stipulation agreement was in place, where’s the thought process that went through your mind that said well we can do this because it’s logical and common sense. Mark Halla: Yeah. Mayor Laufenburger: Even though it’s not necessarily on the… Mark Halla: So I’ll try to be really clear. Mayor Laufenburger: Please do. Mark Halla: My thought process was that we’re an agricultural business selling agricultural products. That doesn’t need to be listed. I don’t list the 800 varieties of perennials that I sell. We simply said we sell plants so that was my process is that I thought that the underlying zoning allowed us to do these things like any other farmer would and that it wasn’t an issue. Mayor Laufenburger: Do you sell feed for cattle? Mark Halla: We do. Not for cattle. For horses and chickens. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 81 Mark Halla: And reindeer. Mayor Laufenburger: And that’s, you believe that’s included in these products? Mark Halla: I do. I think it’s absolutely included. We’re a licensed game farm. You’ll see the game farm products listed there. Yeah. Roger Knutson: Mayor just to be clear, the Stipulation says what’s listed on Exhibit B is it. He can’t sell anything that’s not on Exhibit B. Mayor Laufenburger: Right. Roger Knutson: That’s what this says. Mayor Laufenburger: That’s what the Stipulation Agreement says and that’s an agreement that’s been in place since 1997. Roger Knutson: Correct. Mayor Laufenburger: Has there been any attempt to modify it between 1997 and now? Mark Halla: We had no idea that we were considered in violation. Mayor Laufenburger: The answer is no. Mark Halla: No, absolutely not. Mayor Laufenburger: Right, okay. Alright. Mark Halla: And there’s no one to blame but me. I didn’t think I’d have to ask for a pop machine any more than I’d have to ask for pumpkins or honey or maple syrup. Mayor Laufenburger: Now you’re saying that you’re an agricultural products store. Mark Halla: I am. We’re licensed by the Department of Ag. Inspected by the Department of Ag. By the USDA as well as the Minnesota Department. Mayor Laufenburger: On the Exhibit B it says products for the installation, sales, care, maintenance and ornamentation of plants, lawns, animals and other landscape features. And then it identifies all of these things. Mark Halla: Yep. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 82 Mayor Laufenburger: And the miscellaneous items, plants or materials for the aesthetic practical improvement or use of indoor and outdoor living spaces. Mark Halla: Yeah the concern at the time of the Stipulation was that we were a retail store like a hardware store. Our total focus wasn’t on the agricultural items that we thought we had permission to sell without even asking for it. Our concern was are you going to make a deal if, or an issue out of us selling labels. Is that going to be a problem? Mayor Laufenburger: I’m anxious to hear what the other council members surmise from all of this but Mark this is, this is how I have kind of boiled this down. I believe that you sell products related to the landscape business. Landscape and agricultural business. That’s your number, that’s your business. You also want to market and promote your business. You want to do things to improve the experience that people have when they come onto your site to buy your products. Your landscape and you know maintenance, ornament, plants, lawns, animals and other landscape features. I get that and I want to support that. What I’m concerned about is that the experience that you’re, the quality of the experience that you want to provide people when they come onto buy your products, your landscape products and your agricultural products, that that now is becoming an expansion of your business. I fully support the creative marketing efforts that you have to hold events and stuff like that but when those events cross over the improving the experience while they’re buying all of those other products and they become the reason people come to your store such as, and I’m going to reference your list that you provided here just for a second. Religious, spiritual, personal events. Is a wedding an event that you’d like to have on your site? Mark Halla: No. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. But it could, that could be considered a personal event right? Mark Halla: You were asking for a list, I was asked by staff to provide a list of events. My understanding of what an event is, under the rule of law in Chanhassen is very, very broad. We have Santa Claus Saturdays and Sundays. In the morning and in the evening. Mayor Laufenburger: Yep. Mark Halla: Is each of those an event? In the morning’s an event and the evening and the afternoon is an event or how about just Saturday or Sunday? Mayor Laufenburger: I think it was probably a weekend event but that. Mark Halla: Well I would like to think so. Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 83 Mark Halla: That’s the list that I gave. If you want to look at it from a business side of things I have an event almost every single day right? I serve hot chocolate. I serve coffee. I serve tea. Mayor Laufenburger: You do that to improve the experience that people have when they’re coming to your store right? Mark Halla: Some of it is that we’ve been doing it since our inception because it’s just good business. Mayor Laufenburger: Right, it’s good business to make your business attractive so people enjoy coming to your business to buy the products that are sold in accordance with Exhibit B. Mark Halla: Correct. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay, alright. Well it appears that the only point of concern here is agricultural products and produce. Mark Halla: Agricultural food products and produce and I’m the one that added the agricultural because I thought it eliminated the concern that I would become a grocery store. I was trying to guess. I kept calling and saying tell me what your concern is because I just don’t get why agricultural produce is a big deal and I guess if you think I’m going to be a Lunds or a Byerlys, you know let’s write that I will not be a grocery store. That has, that’s no desire whatsoever. We’re not going to be a strip mall. Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah. Mark Halla: I love Mr. Knutson’s recommendation to change the zoning. If you just make me commercial this all goes away. Mayor Laufenburger: Council, what do you want to do? Councilman McDonald: Mr. Mayor? Okay I guess the, this is a tough one. Maybe not as tough as the one land use but it’s getting there. I guess the concerns I’ve got, I have to go back to the phone calls we got. That’s my biggest concern is why are people thinking you’re going to expand this business into something like Wall Drug Store which is everything in the world, whatever you can think of they added onto the original structure and now it’s a conglomerate of all kinds of products and that does attract people to get off the interstate but how, are you having events every weekend with like food trucks or your drawing people to the business? Explain to me what’s going on down there on the weekend that would get your neighbors a little concerned. Mark Halla: So I don’t think that the neighbors have been concerned, let me first say that. I don’t believe we’ve gotten one complaint from a neighbor, am I correct? Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 84 Mayor Laufenburger: Well MacKenzie shared the comments that he got from phone calls. Mark Halla: Sorry, before this notice was sent about these products of which none of the neighbors expressed any concern about the products. They expressed some events. Have there been filed complaints with the City regarding our use? MacKenzie Walters: Not to my knowledge. Mark Halla: Mine either. No police reports. No issues. Our events. Right the whole food truck thing, starts out Mother’s Day weekend and the weekend before. We have food trucks on Sunday only. Not on Saturday. We do it on Sunday because traffic’s a little less and we also do a petting zoo and we bring in the children for the petting zoo and hopefully the parents spend some more time buying the stuff that we make money on. We added two food truck Fridays this year. Councilman McDonald: Well yeah, I’m not concerned about that. What I’m concerned about and it’s hard to put it into words because of the way we seem to have limited you with the agreement but it’s this expansion of business. That’s what I guess I don’t want to create something. You said the easiest way is just rezone it and become commercial. Well at that point yeah, you can do anything commercial down there and that’s not the intent of what we wanted. It was to kind of limit what your business is but yet at the same time there needs to be a recognition that you’ve got a very broad business. And in the process of doing that yes, you’ve got to have events to get people to come in. I understand all of that and what I wrestle with is, okay how do we make sure you don’t expand because if we allow all this what’s to say you don’t sell in a couple of years and someone else comes in and says ah, well I can do all of this. You know we’re going to tear all of this down. I’m going to put up a store and we’re going to go from there. That was never our intent. Our intent would be that okay it’s a garden center and yes within that a lot of this stuff, honey and all of that comes from gardens. I can make the connection. The Coke machine should have been a no brainer. I mean you can walk into almost any store in this city and they’ve got a Coke machine. I think that’s almost as common as a computer so that doesn’t trouble me as much and you know vending machines with snacks. How do we keep this from expanding and that’s the question I wrestle with and I don’t know if you can help me with an answer to that or not but I think that’s what staff is concerned about is that you know it’s the old elephant in the tent. First you start, or the camel in the tent. First you start with the nose and pretty soon the camel’s in the tent and you’re outside so that’s what I think we’re wrestling with here is okay it’s great you’ve got this business but. Mayor Laufenburger: Do you have camels? Kate Aanenson: Reindeer. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 85 Councilman McDonald: Well he’s got reindeer. Yeah I mean how we keep from this being expanded? Kate Aanenson: Can I make a suggestion if I may. Roger you know I’ll go back to the Mayor’s point. I’m just trying to throw out ideas here. So what the mayor had mentioned was you know your main business is landscaping, agricultural business which one of the permitted uses is the game farm and the animal and all that feed stuff. That’s all permitted. So if we go back to market and promotion of that, if we put in here some things that would support that and try to quantify that because we look at seasonal sales. That’s the pumpkins. That’s the gourds. We kind of quantify those seasonal sales. What you’re expecting. It might be holidays that we try to come up with some language kind of quantifying what those things would be. Work with you on that and just try to quantify what you are expecting on those weekends or those special events. Whatever those holidays are. Mark Halla: Yeah and I’m not arguing or fighting over the food truck thing. Councilman McDonald: Oh don’t worry about the food trucks. Mark Halla: Because that’s so minimal. Councilman McDonald: I think the food truck is covered. Just get a special event permit. Mark Halla: Right. Kate Aanenson: Right. Councilman McDonald: And there’s no problem. Mark Halla: So as far as expanding the actual business, I mean again these are things that we were selling. That’s why Kelly wrote that letter. In 1997 these product lines were all carried there. We simply missed getting them identified somehow in a category because of our own stupidity thinking that agricultural stuff was okay. MacKenzie I don’t know if you can pull up that plan that shows the R and the. Kate Aanenson: Yep. Mark Halla: All of those buildings, the only allowed expansion that I’m aware of is some additional greenhouses that aren’t existing so I don’t, every single thing that we would want to do if we were to expand would have to be coming before you just like I’m doing now and saying is this an acceptable expansion. I think other than the greenhouses that are approved for there but they’re not existing yet so that could be an expansion perhaps if you look at it that way. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 86 Kate Aanenson: So just going back to the CSA stuff, some of the honey. All that stuff which we would categorize as kind of supporting that, making that a sub-set. That we’d try to quantify those as, if that’s acceptable yeah. So that would be the pumpkins, the gourds, kind of that seasonal stuff. Try to find a category to kind of rework and to quantify that so we have a better understanding of what’s. Mayor Laufenburger: When you sell a hotdog, you don’t sell a hotdog to make money on the hotdog. You sell the hotdog so people come to the store and buy the hotdog. Enjoy the experience of buying landscape materials right? Mark Halla: Yes and we’ve had CSA people that come in and sell pork and they sell pork chops. Right? And that’s because we’re supporting their agriculture and people are coming to us to pick it up but those were the type of things. I’m coming to you because I want to be a man of integrity and if I need permission to have a pop machine then I need to come here and say may I have permission because if you read it literally I don’t have permission now and I’ve been in violation since 1997. So that’s why I’m coming to you saying can you help me get out of being in violation. I’ve been doing the same thing. I’m not asking for an expansion or to change anything. There was an understanding on what things are events or what aren’t and I never considered to having Santa Claus there was an event. Mayor Laufenburger: Well I wonder if going on your comments Kate, I wonder can we, Roger we can modify the Stipulation Agreement is that correct? Roger Knutson: That is correct. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay. So we could modify the Stipulation Agreement to say that these products can be sold as part of your business and these activities can be, are agreed to be permitted on site for purposes of marketing and attracting customers. Kate Aanenson: Yeah or tie them into the agricultural part yeah. Yeah because the other thing, the other way we do it is we allow seasonal sales. This goes back to the corn huts. When I first started here the Degler’s had all the corn huts. Mayor Laufenburger: Dimler’s. Kate Aanenson: Yep so we permitted those. We have Christmas tree lots in town. Those are all seasonal sales. We have people that sell produce on commercial lots in town but they get permission from the owners so we know how to do that. We just want to quantify that. I think we can figure that out. We just were looking for direction from the council on… Mayor Laufenburger: Well I think, and council members I’m trying to bring this to conclusion. I think what you’re hearing is this council wants to support Mr. Halla’s efforts for his business to thrive. Not for his business to expand to other areas but for his business to thrive so we like the Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 87 idea of the items on B because that’s part of the agreement but we also like the notion that he should have the ability to do things to improve the experience of his shoppers, and by the way his employees. Not only do stores have pop machines but offices have pop machines for employees. I just, it feels like that’s what we’re looking for here is a way to give Mr. Halla an opportunity to increase the attractiveness and the traffic in his business and if he has a major event with a food truck or some other event that could impact the neighborhood, as Mr. McDonald has said, then we’d like to know about it. Mark Halla: And I’m totally okay with that. Mayor Laufenburger: Okay let’s, council members any comments of what you heard me say? Councilwoman Ryan: I agree. Councilwoman Tjornhom: I agree. Councilman McDonald: Yeah. Mayor Laufenburger: So I think we’re going to push this. Maryanne Halama: Mayor Denny, I’m a neighbor. I think. Mayor Laufenburger: In just a moment okay. Mark Halla: And she’s my sister and she loves me. Maryanne Halama: I’m a neighbor. Mark Halla: And she’s a neighbor. Mayor Laufenburger: The answer is yes you can. Maryanne, is that right? Maryanne Halama: Yes. Mayor Laufenburger: Come on up. Maryanne Halama: And yes I love you. Mark Halla: Thank you. Maryanne Halama: And I want you to thrive. Mayor Laufenburger: State your name and address for the record. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 88 Maryanne Halama: Yeah so Maryanne Halama. I’m at 670 Creekwood in Chaska, or that our mail goes through Chaska so I’m on the south side and so I have used Halla, Mustard Seed to redo my landscaping recently. It’s gorgeous and it was a lot of money and it’s amazing. I have gone to where there is a event. I’ve not gone to ladies night but you know where they have, you can go pet the animals. It brings families together and it’s fun and you know then we want to eat and then we want to drink and then we’re looking at you know what flowers we want to buy and it is I think another way to increase more things to do. You know when we go places we want to eat you know for example. So yeah I do think it I, I think everything on the list is, should be approved and accepted. I have you know I was born in 1968 and they’ve been in business since 1962. You know my, okay I’m also going to throw out there as far as concerns from neighbors, I decided to show up instead of write something. Traffic today at 5:15 it was all the way around the corner on 101 backed up because of the light at the bottom of the hill. It was backed up almost to the nursery that I could see out my window. Like wow, so I don’t think it’s going to be more traffic because there’s an event. You know there’s no farmers market every weekend for sure. There’s no strip mall. Yes I would encourage a rezoning of commercial. I’m going to throw that out there since it was brought up. I think you know what will it take to make him thrive because 101’s going to come through and it’s going to be a detriment. It’s going to be a hardship and please do what you can because you have the power. That’s what I’m asking for. And I am a neighbor and I’ve never had a problem with the Mustard Seed. Nothing. No complaints whatsoever. Mayor Laufenburger: Thank you Maryanne. Maryanne Halama: You’re welcome. Mayor Laufenburger: So I, getting back to what, I think what you’re hearing staff is we would like to see a Stipulation Agreement modified to reflect the ability for him to sell the products that support his current business but also give him the latitude to be creative and permit marketing activities that draw people to his attraction. Now we have to recognize that he is in A2 and there are some limitations associated with A2 but you have the spirit of what the council would like to see in the Stipulation Agreement and I would just ask you to work with Mr. Halla. Kate Aanenson: Yep we can work with them and then bring it back to you. Mayor Laufenburger: Alright so. Any other comments? Mr. Campion. Councilman Campion: I mean at some point in the future do, if the easiest thing to do is to update the stipulations that’s one thing but I mean how, how would we go about you know changing the zoning? I know he didn’t request that specifically tonight but. Mayor Laufenburger: Maryanne did. Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 89 Councilman Campion: Right. You know but I want to support small businesses in town especially ones that have been around for a long time. He’s not looking to put up a casino or something like that from what I. Mark Halla: I hadn’t thought of that. Is that agricultural? Councilman Campion: But I just, I don’t want to be onerous on him and over regulate him and make him have to submit permits for things that are part of normal business. It just doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t seem like the way that we should act to small businesses that have been in town for a long, long time. Mark Halla: May I respond to that? Councilman Campion: Yeah. Mark Halla: Okay so I think I can trust Kate. I think she understands the spirit of this. I think that we can work out an annual permit of some sort to say these are the types of things that are just normal business marketing and they’re okay. So I feel confident that we can do that and if I have concerns you may have noticed I’m fairly forthright. I will let you know. Councilman Campion: Okay and if you’re comfortable with that I’m comfortable with that. Mark Halla: I feel like that’s good. I hope tonight we can at least add to this list of products and then if we need to talk about the event stuff we can sort that out. Councilman Campion: Okay. Mark Halla: But again Jerry to your point I’m not, it’s not we’re looking to expand or broaden stuff as much as say okay, I’m doing these things illegally right now. I’ll feel better if you know that I’m doing it and if you say no to it then I have to discern okay do I not sell pumpkins or produce or canned goods or maple syrup. It’s a whole lot nicer if you just say we don’t see an issue with those things. Mayor Laufenburger: What kind of personal care products do you sell? Mark Halla: So you’re talking about hand lotions. Right. Councilman McDonald: It’s bees. Mark Halla: What’d you say? Well sometimes you have, so you’ll have echaneous stuff. You’re going to have bug repellent. Some of that is natural. Some of it’s organic. Those are the types of things that you know how do you classify them right? It’s like when we said clothing and accessories. We never thought that oh my goodness we’re going to sell these little mustard Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 90 seed earrings and now we have people who make our little mustard seed earrings but by rule if, I mean I suppose if it’s a gift it’s allowed but if it’s for yourself then maybe it’s not. Unless it’s a gift to yourself so the whole nuance of all that is well what do we do so that you don’t ever walk into the store, and that was the first thing I said is let’s walk through our store and tell me all of the things that you see that you don’t think I’m allow to sell so then we can say well how do we either figure out how to be allowed to sell them or no we don’t. Right? Can I sell an alpaca scarf that’s made you know by someone locally or can’t I? And I know that’s in clothing but that’s the kind of thing that I don’t feel like we’re doing anything that is really, should be an issue for anyone sitting here and if you were to come and look at the store you’d go I get it. Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah well we could go back to 1997 and redo it then but we have the wisdom on hind sight. What’s happened for the last 21 years and you know the circumstances that led up to this 1997 agreement we don’t need to deal with that. Mark Halla: No and that was the past and our relationship has so changed since then. It’s been a real. Mayor Laufenburger: Yeah and I’d say what you have here in this council is you have a council that wants you to be successful. We want to do what we can to help you be successful and clarity of what’s allowed and what’s not allowed or what’s allowed with a permit I think that all contributes to giving you the guardrails that you can operate under. Mark Halla: Totally agree. Mayor Laufenburger: So. Councilman McDonald: Mr. Mayor? Mayor Laufenburger: Go ahead Mr. McDonald. Councilman McDonald: Yeah the only comment I would make is, you know as I said I want you to be successful and thrive but I had some concerns but you know I’m fine with what Kate suggested and I really think that will help. The only thing I will ask about you is that okay, I don’t think you’re going to get your rezoning to commercial so. Mark Halla: I don’t think so either. Councilman McDonald: No I don’t think so. Mark Halla: I am not holding my breath. Councilman McDonald: But based upon you know the zoning you have I just want you to make sure you fully understand what that means and as part of this process of working with Kate Chanhassen City Council – October 22, 2018 91 please ask those questions so that we don’t have these problems in the future and that will help you, you know as far as a walk through about what I can and cannot do, if you understand what the zoning is and you bring that back you know with Kate and she can explain things as to why it can’t or why it could that will help everybody and I think we’ll arrive at a stipulation that should serve you quite well. Mark Halla: I agree. Mayor Laufenburger: Thank you Mr. Halla. Mark Halla: So are we going to approve any of these items tonight? Mayor Laufenburger: No. Mark Halla: Or are you saying we just work through it. Okay. Awesome, thank you for your time. Mayor Laufenburger: But it does, whatever comes back to us we have the authority to modify that stipulation agreement. Mark Halla: Right you can say yes or no to it. Mayor Laufenburger: Yep exactly so. Mark Halla: I get it, thank you. Mayor Laufenburger: Thank you Mr. Halla. Mark Halla: Appreciate it. Mayor Laufenburger: That concludes our new business. I know Mr. Oehme’s anxious to tell us about infiltration and inflow. Todd Gerhardt: We can table that to the next agenda. Mayor Laufenburger: Next work session? Okay. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. None. CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION. None.