PC Minutes 9-18-18CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
SEPTEMBER 18, 2018
Chairman Aller called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Andrew Aller, Steve Weick, Nancy Madsen, Mark Randall, and
Michael McGonagill
MEMBERS ABSENT: Mark Undestad, and John Tietz
STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Community Development Director; MacKenzie Walters,
Assistant Planner; and Vanessa Strong, Water Resources Coordinator
PUBLIC PRESENT:
Gene & Lois Sipprell 821 Creekwood Street, Chaska
Rick Brama 9371 Kiowa Trail
PUBLIC HEARING:
821 CREEKWOOD DRIVE: CONSIDER A VARIANCE APPLICATION TO INSTALL
A SEPTIC SYSTEM WITHIN THE REQUIRED SUBSURFACE SEWER TREATMENT
SYSTEMS SETBACKS, FRONT YARD SETBACK AND BLUFF SETBACK AND
IMPACT ZONE.
Walters: Yep so as you mentioned this is a variance request to place a double mound septic
system within the 50 foot septic system bluff setback. The 10 foot septic system property line
setback and then also the 20 foot bluff impact zone. So 821 Creekwood Drive is zoned
agricultural estate. That’s the A2 district. The district’s base zoning requires a minimum 2.5
acre lot area, 50 foot front and rear setbacks. In this case it’s a corner lot so both the north and
the east would be subject to the front setback of 50 feet. Rear would have a 10 foot setback. It’s
allowed 20 percent lot coverage. Bluff ordinance is a 30 foot setback or existing for houses built
before 1991 20 foot bluff impact zone. The Bluff Creek primary zone is located south and west
of the property. Structures are required to be setback 40 feet from that or the existing if they
were built before 1998, and there’s a 20 foot do not disturb area associated with that as well.
Regarding the septic system itself, the City has different standards enacted under Chapter 19
which will be most of the discussion tonight and that requires a 50 foot setback from the top of a
bluff and a 10 foot property line setback for any portion of the septic system. So just doing a
quick overview of the site it’s located on a one acre lot so the lot was created before the current
2 ½ acre standards for the district were in place. It has about 13.7 percent lot cover. The
primary structure meets all of the district’s required setbacks. The deck back here, you can’t see
it very well but it goes about 10 feet into the bluff setback. I apologize this line should have
been deleted. That would have referred to the deck’s total distance from the bluff. Not the
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house. The existing septic system we’re given to understand is inadequate and the applicant has
been told it will need to be replaced within 2 years and the existing septic system does not meet
the current setbacks either. So what the applicant’s requesting to do is to install the septic and
pump tanks approximately 20 feet from the top of the bluff back here behind the house. They
would then install a pump line which would be this running here. Just due to the basically the
geometry of it and the way it has to connect it would need to at one point be within that 20 foot
bluff impact zone. It’s about 5 feet from the top of the bluff here at it’s closest point and be
located mostly within that 50 foot bluff setback. They’re also requesting to install a double
mound system here and at it’s closest point it’d be about 15 feet from the top of the bluff. So
that’s the variance they are requesting. As I mentioned the existing system is going to need to be
replaced. The other consideration is the applicant is interested in at some point in the future
having the potential to add a sixth bedroom so they’re proposing a system that is sized to
accommodate that. One of the potential locations we asked them to look at was more of the
center lawn area. The areas there are disturbed and the understanding, I believe the septic system
designer put a pretty good essay in as to why the State generally encourages you not to locate in
disturbed soils. It’s generally considered a location of last resort so that’s why they’re really
pushing for this northeastern location. The location of the tanks and septic line largely
determined by where the septic line exits the house. There’s not a lot of flexibility in terms of
where else they could realistically put those. And the applicant’s designer has noted that mound
systems have to be located on the same contour and that’s why he had to do a split design and the
rock bed should be placed in an area with 1 to 2 percent slope ideally. So when staff looked over
this request one of the things we considered was how the area is projected to develop in the
future in terms of what type of variance you know would be reasonable going in. We expect at
some point in the future, although there’s no timeline that city sewer and water will be extended
to the area. The main line would be through the Bluff Creek Golf Course here significantly north
of the property which would be here. They would get serviced through Creekwood. We looked
a the right-of-way. There’s about 150 foot jog there where a permanent road could go if the golf
course ever developed and the sewer was brought in so that’s one of the reasons why we’ll get to
staff’s recommendation in a bit but why we feel it’s appropriate to give a very small property
line setback is because the system could be placed very close to the applicant’s property line in
the north or east without running into potential issues with future right-of-ways. Again there’s
no timeline really for when sewer and water would become available to this site. So when staff
looked over, and I should just mention. This area in red was one of the initial proposals that they
are not interested in going forward with so that can be disregarded. This is a survey. The
Certificate of Survey that was submitted for the project and where they showed the proposed
double mound system here. It does not show the sand bed unfortunately. So when staff did their
assessment we spoke with Carver County’s Conservation Technician as well as having our
building inspector who is certified in septic systems discuss with the designer. The applicant’s
assessment that the pumps would need to go behind the house about 20 feet from the bluff. Staff
is in agreement with that placement. Believe it’s necessitated by the existing conditions on the
property. One of the biggest concerns is that there is a drainage swale here which carries a large
amount of the water generated by the Bluff Creek Golf Course and it goes right to the top of the
bluff. There is currently a head cut just downstream of the proposed location. It’s beginning to
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actively erode that area of the bluff and all that drains directly into Bluff Creek which is a State
impaired waterway so staff really is concerned about the potential for the removal of vegetation,
grading and other activity associated with the septic system to exacerbate that situation.
Speaking with Carver County Soil and Water District, they stated their main concern was that the
septic system be positioned clear of the swale which runs about with the 928 contour so the goal
would be to get it as south and east as possible from the drainage swale here to minimize the
amount of tree loss in the area and try to protect that swale and reduce any erosion impact to that
area. Staff and Carver County believe that the system can be reoriented and shifted closer to the
property lines than it’s currently proposed and that doing so would allow an increase in the
distance between the system and the bluff. So what staff is recommending in order to
accommodate that, the applicant’s requesting a 20 foot setback from the bluff for the pump tanks
behind the house. Staff concurs with that and supports that variance request. The pump line as I
said is basically dictated by the other two features and will need to go within that bluff impact
zone and within that 50 foot bluff septic setback. The double mound system, the applicant’s
requesting that it be allowed to be placed within 15 feet of the bluff. Staff believes the system
can be designed to have it about 30 feet from the top of the bluff. Part of doing that would be the
applicant’s currently requesting an 8 foot setback from the property line and reducing that down
to a 1 foot to allow the system to be shifted as far away as possible from the top of the bluff. The
other issue is staff, the Building Inspector Tessman believes the system can be redesigned then
instead of having a 3 to 1 mound ratio, a 4 to 1 mound ratio which would essentially increase it’s
slope a little bit. Tighten the system up so it would be able to be squeezed a little further from
the bluff as well. So staff is recommending approval of modified variance request from what the
applicant is requesting in order to just try to get that extra little bit of distance from the bluff. I’d
be happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.
McGonagill: MacKenzie could you go back to the diagram, the overhead. Keep going. That
one. And kind of show on that one with your pointer where it would lay in there with the
contours. I was trying to do this while you were, the proposal that staff is proposing.
Walters: So my understanding, okay would be roughly, so in both cases you’d have a T kind of
like so and staff’s proposal would basically pivot it down and a little bit to the southeast is my
understanding.
McGonagill: And where is the head cut that you’re, in the swale that you’re worried about?
That staff was worried about.
Walters: Yeah I’ll defer that to the Water Resources Coordinator.
Strong: It is a little tricky to see. However you can see that there’s this open dark line here in
the trees. That’s because that’s the eroded channel. Nothing can grow there so what you’re
seeing is this head cut is creeping towards the swale here and these are very highly erodible soils
that can easily and quickly be destabilized and so again our primary concern is when you have a
potential to hyper saturate or saturate soils that destabilizes them even more of an area that is
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already at risk. Additionally septic system failure and leaks into water bodies is one of the
primary sources for e-coli bacteria and e-coli impairments so it’s just an unfortunate combination
of two things that we need to try to fit in this space but we really need to keep an eye on this
bluff head cut and not increase opportunities and potential for significant rapid erosion.
McGonagill: Sure. Follow up question.
Strong: Yep.
McGonagill: Can you mitigate this with erosion control like you would do in rivers with
buttresses and stuff like that? I mean some of my experience we’ve done that in other areas
where we’ve matted it. You know concrete matted it or put soil erosion, you know to hold it in
place.
Strong: Right so under normal conditions we work to erode at the top of the head cut here. The
problem is if you have a hyper saturated or a heavier saturated area here, you’re now trying to
stabilize a water body at the top of, it’s not a water body but a water feature in some sorts at the
top of a steep slope. That becomes extremely difficult because your soils now start to become
saturated all the way down. So you know we’re trying to balance all the needs going on right
here.
McGonagill: So what I hear you saying is erosion, matting or something like that would not.
Strong: Will go deep enough.
McGonagill: Won’t go deep enough holding.
Strong: The issue would end up being in the soils.
McGonagill: Okay thank you.
Aller: Additional questions? Commissioner Madsen.
Madsen: If the proposed septic was sized to the current size of the house would that affect the
size required for the mound?
Walters: That’s a good question. I would hope the applicant can address to what extent the
variance is linked to the additional bedroom.
Madsen: Okay. And is the current septic located not on their lot? It looks as if it’s over the
properly line.
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Walters: I believe certain features of it are located off the current lot, yeah. If you look at the
diagram we’re given, the existing tank is marked just south of the septic line. Unfortunately the
information we’re provided with doesn’t show the drain field or any other features but yeah.
Madsen: Okay. My question would be if there, if they had obtained an easement then could
they, would there be space in that easement to rebuild their septic over there?
Walters: Yeah it would be within the bluff and that would also most likely end up being within
the Bluff Creek primary zone.
Madsen: Okay yeah because I can’t tell.
Walters: Yeah.
Madsen: If that would make it any better.
Walters: Oh I got you.
Madsen: Oh maybe that one I can see yeah. Okay so that wouldn’t even help. Okay, thank you.
Aller: Any additional questions of staff? Commissioner Weick.
Weick: Do we know where the current system drains? I didn’t catch that.
Walters: Into the bluff yeah.
Weick: It does?
Walters: Yeah it’s definitely in a place where we would not currently allow a septic system.
Unfortunately you know kind of the 3 lots here are all in a pretty similar situation where they’re
you know older houses located near a bluff. Septic ordinances were not necessarily in place at
the time so they were put where they were put.
Aller: Okay, Commissioner Madsen.
Madsen: I think you mentioned that so for the water and the septic to go through, or maybe it
was just the septic, Bluff Creek Golf Course would have to be developed so it’s not going to go
along 101?
Walters: Oh you’re, for the sewer system to go in?
Madsen: Yes.
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Aanenson: No the intention of the lift station would be north of Lyman Boulevard and then it
would come down and go through Bluff Creek Golf Course and then tie back over to 101. The
City’s examined all the alternatives and that’s the most cost effective way so all that’s predicated
on development of the golf course.
Madsen: Okay so it can’t be included in the 101, okay.
Aanenson: They may sleeve some pipes there but to the most effective way to provide municipal
services to that area would be coming through the golf course.
Madsen: Okay thank you.
Aller: Any additional questions? Hearing none if the applicant would like to come forward and
make his presentation and step forward and state your name and address for the record that
would be great.
Gene Sipprell: Okay, my name is Gene Sipprell and my address is 821 Creekwood Drive and
it’s a Chaska mailing address but it’s in Chanhassen.
Aller: We’ll forgive that.
Gene Sipprell: It’s very confusing but we get it. Well just an overview of our situation. We
bought this house in May and part of the contingency was to have the well checked, the septic
system checked and the four corners, the boundaries checked and so when we did that we found
out that the septic system was lacking and would need to be replaced. So we searched to find an
adequate septic designer to be able to install this and we found out this is a complicated process
and so we came upon this Dale Denn who has quite a bit of experience in this area but it’s
$30,000 so it’s not cheap to do this properly. So you know so we contracted with him to give us
the bid and explain the process for us. Along the way we found out about this erosion that’s
taking place on the property towards the bluff and the concern that we don’t want to exacerbate
that and we were told about a program where you might be able to apply and the City, County
something might contribute some money towards doing some restoration there. And so we want
to do whatever we can to keep the bluff in good shape and so it’s our understanding the only
logical location for the septic system is in the northeast quadrant of the property which is furthest
away from the bluff so it’s logical to us and you know it has to flow you know a certain
parameters and so that’s in the design. And then there’s this thing called the swale and so we can
bring in a landscape person that’s skilled at designing that swale and that property so we want to
do it right. I have my real estate agent with me who is familiar with those details and he could
address that as well.
Aller: Great. So it sounds to me as though the location regardless of where it is. Whether it’s
the first presentation. The first option that was presented. The second or a third, as long as it
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works for you that it’s okay. It’s not like you have another use of the property that we’re worried
about or an intended use in the future.
Gene Sipprell: Right, right, yeah.
Aller: Okay. And then the question came up before I opened, not stepping on toes here but
about the use of the sixth bedroom. The addition. Have you been informed or what is your
understanding about the size of the tanks or the use of the tanks and the addition, does it make a
difference?
Rick Brama: Gene I just talked to him.
Gene Sipprell: Yeah, oh you talked to Dale?
Rick Brama: Yeah if you want me to address that.
Gene Sipprell: Sure, alright.
Aller: That’s great.
Rick Brama: Is that okay?
Aller: Absolutely. Come on, the important thing is that we get.
Rick Brama: …need an address?
Aller: Yeah.
Rick Brama: Yeah Rick Brama, 9371 Kiowa Trail, Chanhassen so I’ve been here a few times.
Aller: And we understand that you got the inspection on this and uncovered this dilemma?
Rick Brama: Yeah so I just talked to the designer just now just to verify whether or not there is
any difference in the design between a 5 and 6 bedroom. Just now I just talked to him and he
said no. There’s no difference between the two. The width of the mounds has to be exactly the
same between a 5 and a 6 so whether they leave it at 5, this is a design that has to be changed to
6, it shouldn’t affect the difference in the design and the width of the mounds. The two mounds.
No matter what he has to split the mounds he just told me you know at the current 5 bedroom so
that’s one big concern. There’s a couple other things. One this system right now is eroding the,
you know the bluff right behind the house you know so obviously when the system was initially
put in the grade of the bluff was acceptable. Now the grade has to be a lot less in order for us to
put septic systems and drain fields in the bluff. And just a little background, I’m also a licensed
builder. I’m a close friend of their’s so I’m a licensed contractor and this was a very complicated
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situation because before they purchased the property we had to do intensive research. To find
out we knew that the septic was going to be non-compliant. That was an easy expectation that it
was going to be non-compliant when we asked the sellers to do the compliance inspection just
because we knew where it was you know so this was expected so we then did further research
and the reality is, is that because of the disturbed soil that’s between the house and where the
system is currently you know requested to be placed. There’s no other option on this property so
if there was a way now, I didn’t realize that we could actually squeeze and get to 1 foot from the,
you know from that east property line that’s an advantage you know. I do have one question
specifically related to that. We’ve got, we gained 7 feet here by moving it to the east to get a 1
foot setback but we have to somehow make up 15 feet and is that by changing the 3 to 1 to 4 to 1
to a 3 to 1 on the mound?
Walters: My understanding from talking to Building Inspector Tessman is that it’s a
combination of the ratio change. Shortening the needed drain field, etcetera, and then also using
that 7 feet to kind of pivot the system a little bit and get that extra thing squeaked out. Both
Building Inspector Tessman and I believe it’s, I’m going to butcher his last name. Conservation
Technician Hagness indicated they felt that the system could accommodate the proposed setback.
Rick Brama: Okay. The only concern I have there is we have to trust that judgment because
once this gets approved and then the designer says yes I’m going to move everything and it still
has to work you know so I just, and that’s okay. I just want to make sure that those, obviously
you guys took that into consideration so it’s just been a long road you know to finally get a point
where it’s like yeah you guys should probably have a functioning septic system that’s not going
down into the bluff you know so. Okay thanks.
Gene Sipprell: Thank you.
Aller: Thank you. Any additional questions of the applicant at this time? Hearing none we’ll
open up the public hearing portion of this item. Any individual wishing to come forward and
speak either for or against the item can do so at this time. No? Wanna just have fun? Come up
and, alright. Hearing no one come forward we’ll go ahead and close the public hearing portion
of the item and open it up for discussion. Commissioner Weick.
Weick: I will say I’m usually a tough sell on hardship but this feels like hardship. Right I mean
we’ve got to fit a septic system on this property in my opinion and so it sure feels like we’re
doing the absolute best we can. And I really appreciate the homeowner you know being so
willing to do whatever it takes to protect the bluff and make sure everything works. I mean
that’s fantastic so.
McGonagill: I agree with you Commissioner and I also would encourage, thank you the
homeowner for their intention and there’s a lot that could be done to the bluff about vegetation
on it to hold it after you, when you do your landscape design. There’s different things I would
encourage you to look at that. Given some previous experience there’s a lot of different stuff
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that you might be able to help continue to mitigate the sloughing so I would just please
encourage you to do that as you proceed with your landscape architect but I agree with you.
Aller: Yeah I think it’s obviously the uniqueness of the property on certainly no fault to the
homeowner who came on and purchased the property. The role here is to accommodate and to
the best of our ability a reasonable use of the property. This certainly is reasonable use and then
to make sure that it’s the minimal variance that we can do and that happens to be, it sounds like
the optimum one as well for purposes of preservation of the bluff and that’s something that
we’ve all been concerned with for a number of years so I think it becomes a win/win and I don’t
see any reason why I would not vote in support of a motion which I will request at this time.
Weick: I can take a look at that. My only question is, does it read, does this read as you, with
the 1 foot and all that?
Walters: Yes it does. Practice is to give the amount of variance you’re giving from the setback
so the 30 foot bluff setback variance is 20 feet from the bluff. It’s counterintuitive.
Weick: No that’s okay.
Walters: Yeah, no it is.
Weick: I just wanted to make sure we had it like everything in there.
Walters: Yep.
Weick: So I’ll go ahead and propose a motion.
Aller: Commissioner Weick.
Weick: The Chanhassen Board of Appeals and Adjustments approves the placement of the
pump line within the 50 foot bluff setback area and 20 foot bluff impact zone, a 30 foot bluff
setback variance for the tanks and a 20 foot bluff and 9 foot property line setback variance for
the mounds and dispersal area subject to the conditions of approval and adopt the attached
Findings of Fact and Recommendation.
Aller: I have a motion. Do I have a second?
Randall: Second.
Aller: Having a motion and a second. Any further discussion? I would just add that it’s been a
long time since we’ve had people come forward with the information ahead of time having
inspected their property. We always hear about people saying surprise, surprise, we didn’t know
so thank you to your real estate individuals as well for insisting upon certain inspections and to
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have you become aware of these things before and puts you in a better position to deal with the
situation and the City knowing what you need to do so thank you for working with us.
Weick moved, Randall seconded that the Chanhassen Board of Appeals and Adjustments
approves the placement of the pump line within the 50 foot bluff setback area and 20 foot
bluff impact zone, a 30 foot bluff setback variance for the tanks and a 20 foot bluff and 9
foot property line setback variance for the mounds and dispersal area, subject to the
conditions of approval and adopt the attached Findings of Fact and Recommendation:
1. The applicant must apply for and receive all necessary permits from the relevant
agencies.
2. The applicant shall work with the City, County and Watershed staff to maximize the
system’s distance from the bluff, minimize it’s impact on the bluff and avoid impacting
the existing drainage swale.
3. The applicant shall minimize tree loss, and shall, to the greatest extent possible, avoid
removing mature trees within 20 feet of the top of the bluff.
4. A new 1”=20’ scale survey showing the final location of the septic and pump tanks,
pump line, mound, and drain field shall be provided as part of the permitting process.
5. The area around the septic system mounds shall be landscaped so as to minimize it’s
visual impact.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Commissioner Madsen noted the verbatim and summary
Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated September 4, 2018 as presented.
COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS. None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS.
Aanenson: Administrative, I do have a few things.
Aller: Administrative.
Aanenson: We have 4 meetings left in the year. We do have items on for the October 2nd.
We’re hoping to have the Glendale Subdivision on. There’s a lot of neighborhood work going
on up there to resolve that so we’ll probably re-notice the neighbors on that too because it’s been
a while. Just make sure they have an opportunity to comment. I know Sharmeen’s been