CC Minutes 6-10-19Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
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Mayor Ryan: Thank you. That was our scheduled visitor presentation. Are there any other
visitor presentations this evening? Okay we will move forward with there are no public hearings
tonight so we will start with new business.
CONSIDER A REQUEST FOR A VARIANCE FOR LOT COVER, LAKE SETBACK,
AND FRONT YARD SETBACK FOR PROPERTY LOCATED AT 3617 RED CEDAR
POINT.
Mayor Ryan: I would like to say before I pass this over to Mr. Walters and he begins, this
evening we’ll get a staff report from Mr. Walters. Provide an opportunity to ask questions of
staff. Invite the applicant forward to answer any questions or respond to any of the questions
that council had even for staff as well as just address the council. This is not a public hearing but
I would like to let the people that are in the chambers tonight as well as at home that are
watching with particular interest to this, we have received all of the emails and feedback that you
have sent to city staff. We have received the full verbatim Minutes for the Planning Commission
meeting so we had an opportunity to read through all of your comments and the additional
communication between residents and staff were included in the packet so we have been
provided with the many comments and emails provided by the residents. In particular the
neighbors to this residence. I just wanted to make sure that everybody was clear on the process
for this evening so with that I will turn it over to Mr. Walters.
MacKenzie Walters: Thank you Mayor Ryan. As mentioned this is planning case 2019-03. It is
an appeal of the case that went before the Planning Commission on May 21st. The applicant had
requested an 11 ½ foot front yard setback variance, 22.1 foot shoreland setback, a 9.5 percent lot
cover variance for the purpose of constructing a detached single family home. The Planning
Commission had approved the variance with one modification. And 8 ½ foot front yard setback.
The equivalent of instead of the requested 11 ½ foot one. A little bit of background on this case.
Some of you may remember this from last year. We received a variance request for this
property. That was Planning Case 2018-01. In that one the Planning Commission had voted to
grant an 11.5 foot front yard setback variance, 22.1 foot lakeshore setback variance and an 11
percent lot cover variance. That’s the same setbacks as was requested by this applicant and the
applicant had removed about 150 feet of lot cover. Just for some context. That approval was
appealed on January 8th. The appeal cited concerns about the length of the property’s driveway,
the amount of lot cover and the size of the proposed house. On February 12, 2018 the council
upheld the Planning Commission’s decision. However on February 12th of 2019 the variance
lapsed because no construction had taken place. I believe the buyer backed out and so the
property returned to the market and so a new variance was necessary. During the May 21st
Planning Commission meeting a public hearing was held. I know that you mentioned the
verbatim minutes and the emails having been read but I just want to highlight the concerns that
staff heard during that. The Planning Commission expressed concerns that the proposed
driveway length was too short and could establish a precedent for the neighborhood and the
Planning Commission was concerned that the 3 car garage may be oversized for the property.
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They discussed multiple driveway depths and felt that an average depth of 16 feet would provide
adequate parking. The Planning Commission noted that the use of pavers would reduce the
effect of impervious down to about 28 to 29 percent from the 34 to 35 percent. Sorry 34.5
percent requested. Four neighbors spoke and expressed concern over the driveway length and
requested that the Planning Commission require a minimum of 18 feet. One resident spoke and
expressed support for the variance as requested. At the end the applicant indicated a willingness
to increase the driveway length by 3 feet and that was the variance that was ultimately granted.
None of the Planning Commission, they voted 4-0 to approve the variance with the longer front
yard setback. May 27, 2019 staff received 2 appeals of the variance granted by the Planning
Commission. Just a note the City Council has the authority to reverse, affirm, modify wholly or
partly the appeal decision. A summary of the two appeals. The first appeal received was from
the applicant. The applicant essentially requested that they be granted the variance they had
initially requested rather than the one approved by the Planning Commission. They noted that
what they had requested was essentially the variance that had been approved last year and that
they had reduced the lot cover from the previously approved variance as well as…to grant the
City an easement for roadway. They feel the proposed driveway can accommodate two vehicles
and that total parking rather than driveway parking should be the standard. They also point out
that they have no exterior storage outside of the garage. The neighbors, we also received an
appeal from the neighbor. They expressed concern that the proposal does not provide adequate
guest parking. I’m sorry that is quest parking oh dear. Guest parking and believe that a
minimum of two cars should be accommodated by the driveway. They believe the potential for
cars to overhang the street creates dangerous situations and that a minimum 18 foot depth is
needed. They expressed concern about a precedent for the neighborhood. They would also
express concern about the phrasing of the condition on the variance regarding the use of pervious
pavers. Staff has reworded that to address the concern. It was never staff’s intent for that to be
an optional condition so that has been changed.
Mayor Ryan: On the patio and the driveway.
MacKenzie Walters: Yes.
Mayor Ryan: Okay.
MacKenzie Walters: Yes. So a little bit of background on the location and the variance. The
property is located at 3617 Red Cedar Point Road. It’s zoned residential single family. The
zoning standards for that area require a 20,000 square foot minimum lot size, limit their
properties to 25 percent lot cover, have a 30 foot front yard setback, 10 foot side yard setback, 75
foot shoreland setback and allow for up to a 250 square foot water oriented accessory structure.
The site as it is is a substandard lot. It’s 9,203 square feet so a little less than half the size that
would normally be required for the district. The lot currently has a lot coverage of 36.36 percent.
It meets the required 30 foot front yard setback. The 10 foot east side setback is also met.
However there is an out building that is a shed that’s about 4 feet from the side yard over here
that the applicant’s proposing to remove. It is 52.9 feet from the lake so that’s a non-conforming
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lakeshore setback and it has an existing 114 square foot water oriented structure that’s 24 feet
from the lake. I should note the property’s a little atypical in that a portion of Red Cedar Point
Road is actually located within the lot lines. As…policy the 562 square feet covered by Red
Cedar Point Road is not included in either the lot coverage area or the lot area totals that we’ll be
discussing tonight. So the applicant is proposing to remove the existing house as well as a large
gravel driveway that extends about 30 feet into the property. They’re proposing to construct a
new home shown here in green with a 3 car garage, driveway and then the patio that serves the
property’s water oriented accessory structure so they wouldn’t be allowed to build anything
closer to the lake than that patio. Their justification cited is the substandard nature of the lot.
The fact that it is not possible to construct a new home within city code on the parcel. They will
be replacing a deteriorating structure. They will be removing a non-conforming gravel drive and
putting vegetation in the front yard. They’ll be reducing the lot cover by 184 square feet from
it’s existing so it’s about a 1.9 percent reduction and they’ll be bringing the side yard setback
into compliance with city code. They believe their request is consistent with other variances
granted in the neighborhood. So we have as mentioned received numerous comments from
neighbors. We’ve been contacted by I believe 7 neighbors to date. 6 have expressed concerns.
One has expressed support for the variance as requested. The concerns and focus have really
been on whether or not the, on their belief that the proposal does not provide off street parking
for guests and will exacerbate the existing parking issues and safety concerns due to road width.
There have also been concerns expressed that the house overbuilt and maximized and there is
concern with the amount of impervious surface being proposed. The one supportive resident felt
that the proposal is a marked improvement on the existing and they feel parking is in line with
the general pattern of the neighborhood and note that people in the area work together to deal
with the parking situation. Regarding parking staff did survey using Google Maps as well as
data we have from our aerial photos. As a note the city code does not have a minimum driveway
length stipulated. However for residential single family the 30 foot setback effectively would
create a 30 foot drive which depending on length of right-of-way would accommodate between 4
to 6 cars considering the 2 car garage is an ordinance minimum so between 4 to 6 spots would
generally be provided under city code. Looking at the houses in the immediate neighborhood
staff calculated 77 spaces from 17 properties so then average of 4 ½ spaces are provided per
property. The proposal staff…provides 4 off street spaces, 3 of which are in the garage. One
would be in the driveway. The 3 foot increased driveway length approved by the Planning
Commission would allow the driveway to more comfortably accommodate an average sized
vehicle. For the purposes of discussion staff estimates the average size of a vehicle at 16 feet.
So engineering staff did some work on the driveway and look at it as it was proposed. The
driveway requested by the applicant would have been 11 ½ feet at it’s shortest. 14 ½ feet at it’s
longest. It was felt that by increasing it by 3 feet with the average length of 16 feet would be
achieved in the middle which would allow for the perpendicular parking of an average sized car.
Even with the additional 3 feet staff recognizes that you know a contractor’s truck, full sized
truck would not be able to park perpendicularly on the lot. This is just for some context a street
view of Red Cedar Point Road. The house in yellow is the property in question and you can see
it’s being used in this shot to park a trailer and a boat in front of the home. There was also
concern expressed by the neighbors during the initial variance request as well as the second
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round regarding the ability of snowplows to effectively remove snow from the area. Apparently
historically the home is in dis-use so the front yard was used as a turnaround and snow storage
area for the snowplows. Public works has looked it over and they are confident they can
effectively plow the area without utilizing the subject properties. They do believe they would
need to remove a large cottonwood tree that’s currently located in the public right-of-way here
but they believe they can conduct a turn and successfully plow the area. There’s also been some
discussions as to the buffering requirement that was placed on this variance. Without going too
much out of my depth the Water Resources Coordinator put together an explanation of why this
condition is being placed on this property. Essentially there are new rules that have been put out
by the DNR recently that recommend 30 foot minimum buffer. 30 foot buffers be established
along lake front properties. When people apply for variances with a 10 foot minimum width and
so staff is recommending a 20 foot buffer be put in place between the property and the lake to
help reduce the impact of the impervious surface. An example of what that would look like is
this is where the buffer would need to be located on the property. This represents a 20 foot wide
buffer. They would be allowed to have a 4 foot wide gap to facilitate walkway and access to the
lake. This is the current situation in the rear yard and then these are some conceptual shots of
what a buffer could be with the vegetation that can help slow and infiltrate the water. Staff’s
assessment looking over the variance is the applicant should be required to install a buffer to help
offset the large amount of impervious surface being retained. Staff feels the utilization of
permeable pavers should also be used to address the water quality issues and that the shoreland
restoration project of which the buffer would be the main component should also be used to
mitigate the impact of the requested setback and lot cover. Staff believes that the variance is
consistent with those granted to surrounding properties as well as the existing non-conformities
within the neighborhood. Staff is also concerned about parking and acknowledges that the
driveway length is short but feels that the variances does provide for a total of 4 off street
parking spaces which is consistent with the neighborhood. For these reasons staff is
recommending the City Council uphold the Planning Commission’s granted variance. I’d be
happy to take any questions at this time.
Mayor Ryan: Thank you Mr. Walters. Council any questions of staff at this time?
Councilman McDonald: I have a question.
Mayor Ryan: Councilman McDonald.
Councilman McDonald: In reading through this, I remember when this came through over a year
ago and we talked about the things at that point. I was concerned then about the parking out
front and just adding the 11 feet that we’re looking at, what does that exactly buy because I mean
that area is notorious as far as having problems whenever you have company over and especially
down at that end of Red Cedar, I mean have we really solved any problem or have we just
created a bigger problem?
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MacKenzie Walters: I don’t believe this proposal solves any of the problems. I don’t
necessarily know that it’d be possible given the lot cover and setback constraints to design a
house that you know could absorb excess parking in the area. I think it represents something of a
neutral, neutral situation where it provides adequate parking for the family that you have at the
house and likely one guest.
Councilman McDonald: Yeah I had, I was going to wonder why we couldn’t just push the house
back but I think you did address that because of the buffer to the lake so there really is no room
to do anything. Sounds like you’ve moved it around as much as you can on the lot. The only
other place to start taking the land and everything would be to reduce the size of the house and
I’m sure the owners don’t want to do that. So I’m a little perplexed. It looks like no matter
what we do we’re going to create a big problem so okay. Thank you.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I need you to review with me again 4 parking spots that you’ve
identified.
MacKenzie Walters: Yep so 3 of these parking spots would be in the garage.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Okay.
MacKenzie Walters: And then the fourth would be if you’re talking an average sized car with
the Planning Commission’s granted variance, I’m actually…you would add 3 feet onto this so
you’d have a 17 ½ foot on your longer leg and then you know going out to about 14 feet here
you’d be 16 feet deep so that would allow one car, again assuming an average length car, to park
you know traditionally straight up nose to the garage. If not the car would, if the car was longer
you would have to come in you know and park basically parallel to the front of the garage you
know to not hang into the street or cause any situation like that. If depending on the size of the
car the applicant might be able to get a second car into the garage with the extra, I mean into the
driveway with the extra 3 feet for a 5 but it would require a lot of coordination.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Can you go back to a street view?
MacKenzie Walters: The Red Cedar Point view? Yes.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yes that. That’s a really narrow street.
MacKenzie Walters: Yes it is.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: So what happens now when there’s a graduation party or there is
something going on, where do people park?
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MacKenzie Walters: I believe folks, I don’t believe any parking is possible on the street. I think
it tends to get pushed to the streets to the west or they make arrangements to share parking
between neighbors. I couldn’t speak to that authoritatively though.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: But we don’t have anything posted saying no parking?
MacKenzie Walters: I don’t believe we do.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: And is that something that is possible to just post no parking on that
street?
Todd Gerhardt: Another option is to shuttle people. Make arrangements with somebody that has
you know, maybe the Lutheran church down the road. Arrangements with them and have a bus
shuttle people.
Mayor Ryan: Okay thank you. Councilman Campion.
Councilman Campion: No questions or comments.
Mayor Ryan: I thought you had raised your hand, sorry. Any other questions at this time? Go
ahead.
Councilwoman Coleman: We received an email saying I think something a little contradictory
seeing that this actually would not fit the average length of cars. Being put, I believe they said
17 if we’re taking the average. Do you see this fitting 2 cars on average?
MacKenzie Walters: I think it can in theory the driveway could accommodate 2 cars in terms of
how people practically park. I see accommodating one average car. I believe the email you are
citing is the weighted average for cars doing like the top 20 most commonly sold by number of
vehicles sold. You know in terms of whether or not that’s a more valid message for determining
average with vehicle length than others I couldn’t comment on. I think that the extra 3 foot
driveway would accommodate a car that’s a little bit above average but again leaving space
between the front of the garage and the bumper of the car certainly if you get above average
there’s a risk it would hang out into the street.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I would imagine that you know especially when you’ve had a winter
like we’ve had where there’s a lot of snow, even if the snowplow comes through that road has to
get even more narrow as the season progresses. So I mean I would think that it would be just a
hard street to maneuver in general for anybody. So I can definitely understand everyone’s
concern when it comes to parking and especially on the street.
Mayor Ryan: Councilwoman Coleman did you have any further questions?
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Councilwoman Coleman: No thank you.
Mayor Ryan: I have a few questions Mr. Walters. I’ll come back to the driveway piece of it and
some that I have to do, I know you clarify the part about the permeable pavers are part of the
conditions to have both on the patio and the driveway. Another thing had to do with, and it’s
spoken to in the report but just to reiterate, the conditions, I think they’re 13, 14 and 15. If you
could just speak to the vegetated buffer. The shoreland restoration plan. As conditioned those
have to be, those plans have to be submitted and approved prior to correct?
MacKenzie Walters: The applicant would need to submit an engineered design for the, sorry not
engineered but landscape design for the buffer and any shoreline process and Water Resources
Coordinator Clark would review those and they would require her approval in order to meet the
condition of the variance.
Mayor Ryan: Okay. And is that something that we’ve, is that a requirement common in the
neighborhood?
MacKenzie Walters: In this neighborhood no. As I mentioned the vegetative buffer is a new
requirement.
Mayor Ryan: Oh okay.
MacKenzie Walters: It’s something that I can’t speak to exactly when they began putting that as
a thing to consider for variances but I believe that comes from the DNR front. The MN Statute
462.357 and the local water management plan that we just adopted. That’s where that new
standard comes from. Apologies.
Mayor Ryan: Okay and that’s the standard now from today going forward so I’m trying to kind
of lay the groundwork that while I know addressing this, you know this house today it’s kind of
setting precedent for what’s to happen in other developments going forward in this
neighborhood. And then when you did the total for impervious surface are the total calculations
for the permeable pavers included in the overall lot coverage?
MacKenzie Walters: So the lot coverage variance that the Planning Commission granted
included the permeable pavers as well as the traditional impervious surfaces. Because the
property’s in the shoreland overlay district we don’t differentiate between the two.
Mayor Ryan: Okay.
MacKenzie Walters: Because it’s a variance we are requiring the use and we acknowledge it
plays a role in you know reducing the impact.
Mayor Ryan: Okay.
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MacKenzie Walters: If you took out the permeable pavers I think the lot coverage drops to 28
point some odd percent.
Mayor Ryan: Okay. Okay I just wanted to clarify that number. And then you mentioned about
obviously the public works has been involved in reviewing snow removal and what not and you
mentioned about cutting down the tree. The cottonwood. Who’s responsible for cutting it
down? Is there any replacement plan? I know they’re required to plant one tree in their front
yard but what, you know what is that process?
MacKenzie Walters: I’ll defer to the Public Works Director.
Mayor Ryan: Okay.
Jason Wedel: Mayor, members of the council. The removal of that tree would be done by public
works so whether or not we would do it ourselves with in-house staff or contract it with our tree
service, that responsibility would be our’s. There is not a plan right now to replace it because it
is a tree that’s within our right-of-way in an area that was meant for truck turning movements.
There’s not really a required replacement for that tree as such.
Mayor Ryan: Okay so better to not have it there?
Jason Wedel: Correct.
Mayor Ryan: Okay. But no snow will be piled up there?
Jason Wedel: The snow will be equally distributed across all the properties throughout the
circle.
Mayor Ryan: Goodie. Alright and then the last one does have to do with the length of the
driveway. What the Planning Commission approved was a 16 foot length at the largest part of
the driveway?
MacKenzie Walters: The Planning Commission’s, I’m going to go back to that slide because I
think illustrates it the best. So the Planning Commission by increasing the front yard setback by
3 feet would, this middle portion here would increase to 16 feet. So this one would have been 17
1/2. This one 14 ½ or so. At the shortest length.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council. A typical parking lot stall is 9 feet wide, 18 feet long.
Mayor Ryan: And so when you had your off street parking slide and you mentioned the number
of parking, right there. Parking spaces you are including both inside the garage and outside of
the garage.
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MacKenzie Walters: Yes I am.
Mayor Ryan: And most of the, maybe you know this or you can guess it, most of the driveway’s
accommodate 2 cars in their driveway or would it be a wide range of 1 to 6?
MacKenzie Walters: It varies. As you mentioned in the emails the properties with variances
granted the driveways have typically accommodated 2 cars. One exception would be this house
to the east here where a condition of the variance was because of the shortness of the driveway
they had to provide 2 parking spots up here to accommodate you know some extra parking. The
non-conforming properties are less so.
Mayor Ryan: Okay. And so if it moves forward with you know with 16 foot depth are the plans,
do the plans as submitted have to be changed?
MacKenzie Walters: I would let the applicant address the extent of revisions that would be
needed. I believe it would require a redrafting of the garage area.
Mayor Ryan: Okay. Okay I’ll save my questions for the applicant. And we don’t know the
dimensions of the garage either.
MacKenzie Walters: Again I would defer to the applicant.
Mayor Ryan: Okay perfect. Alright those are my questions. Thank you Mr. Walters. Council
any other questions? Alright if not I would ask the applicant to come forward please and state
your name and we know your address but if you could state your address as well that would be
great please.
Kristine Kingsbury: Hello, my name’s Kristen Kingsbury, I’m actually an attorney. I’m so
excited to meet you Roger Knutson. I grew up under Jerry Duffy so I’ve heard about you. So
Mayor, council, so pleased to be here with you today. I’m representing Pam Reimer with her
application and we understand the recommendations of the Planning Commission and the
proposal for the motion by the City Council. We are, as far as the driveway goes we understand
that, that would be great if I could have that little diagram up there could I?
MacKenzie Walters: This one?
Kristine Kingsbury: The one with the nice driveway. What we are interested in proposing is
kind of a mix of the two. We’re wondering if we can’t do an 11.5 for where the single car
garage is and an 8.5 for the double car and so the reason why we think that’s helpful is it creates
greater length along the single car garage which allows for more parking. Now this is an 3
inside, one outside so that does give us the 4 spots. But having that extra length might be
helpful. In terms of the outhouse, we’re so excited to be able to remove that and to create a
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better neighborhood feel. Taking care of this property and kind of cleaning it up and we’re
excited to cooperate with the City in creating a prescriptive easement so that we’ve got a little bit
of extra road cover for the city and in terms of the buffer we’re excited to be the guinea pig with
the buffer. We would like to go back to what the Planning Commission suggested with the 10
feet. I understand that the City Council’s looking at 20 feet today and we’re just excited for this
new project. We’re excited to get going. We have had quite a bit of expense because we’ve
done our plans over a couple times. We’re got $70,000 expense for some of the special fittings
that are needed for this property and then we’ve had to redraw our plans a couple times $5,000 I
think each time. So we’d like to hear what the City has to say. I’d like to just make sure I
haven’t missed anything. And that is I guess our presentation and our request that you grant the
variance today.
Mayor Ryan: With the changes you just requested?
Kristen Kingsbury: I’d like you to consider it yes.
Mayor Ryan: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: I’m not sure we understand.
Mayor Ryan: No I don’t know that’s why I was going to ask if somebody draw that I guess. It
just seemed to get shorter.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah.
MacKenzie Walters: So if I correctly, okay.
Kate Aanenson: Do you have the zoning ordinance?
Kristen Kingsbury: Yes that’s actually what I would like. Paul could you come up and assess?
Paul Wagner: You bet.
Mayor Ryan: Welcome, if you could just state your name and address as well please.
Paul Wagner: You bet I’m Paul Wagner from way down south in …Minnesota. 3200 57th Street
West.
Mayor Ryan: Great thank you.
Paul Wagner: …one comment out of the gate here, this reads from Helen Gunther and she
thought that there should be an appeal.
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Mayor Ryan: Sir.
Paul Wagner: It says here because it was misinformed that evening that the garage was 26 foot
deep.
Mayor Ryan: I know but we’re not holding a public hearing so we want to answer.
Kate Aanenson: …the garage is what they wanted.
Paul Wagner: The garage is only 24 feet deep.
Mayor Ryan: Okay. If you could just draw on the.
Kate Aanenson: We’re just trying to determine if the driveway gets bigger or shorter.
Mayor Ryan: Right.
Paul Wagner: …ready with a pen. It’s just this third stall right here.
Todd Gerhardt: So you’re recessing it?
Paul Wagner: We could step it back 2 feet and still have enough flush garage.
Todd Gerhardt: So it’s a recessed single and then double…
Paul Wagner: Well just give more depth to that person to be able to not have their bumper stick
out. But the garage is not 26 foot deep, it’s 24. And the survey reflects that.
Kate Aanenson: Okay. That was the question correct?
Mayor Ryan: Go ahead Ms. Aanenson.
Todd Gerhardt: It has two 8 to your 16?
MacKenzie Walters: Yeah I guess one thing I’m a little confused on and I apologize I would like
clarification. Is that recessed in addition to the 3 feet that the Planning Commission gave or
requested in lieu of?
Paul Wagner: No. It would not be an addition to that because then you’d be getting a graduate,
wouldn’t even be able to park a boat in.
MacKenzie Walters: So then this section of the driveway would stay at 13 feet. This section at
11 ½ and this.
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Mayor Ryan: It’s just it’s easier for us to see where you’re changing the numbers please.
Paul Wagner: So does that show up there by my pencil? So what we’re just saying is that we
step the third stall back 2 feet. We create depth for a vehicle because right now a vehicle can
pull in there horizontally but it’s user friendly to turn out and leave the neighborhood so this way
we’d accommodate pretty much a full sized vehicle to be off the street and you could still have
another street, another vehicle shorter ones in front of the area if not at horizontal. Parallel with
the street. Keep in mind the drive is 30 foot wide.
Mayor Ryan: So what are the lengths if you go from left to right or right to left, however they
want to do it, what are we looking at with the length of driveway? You have one, where you
added the 2 feet what is the length of that driveway now?
Paul Wagner: Well there again that’s another conflict is that, on Pam’s property which is
currently 3 foot of road right-of-way because right now if we leave the bones off…and stick a
car in front and have her sticking out it would still be sticking out onto Pam’s property. Because
the road is on Pam’s property.
Mayor Ryan: Right I understand that but the request for the variance is the 16 feet from curb to
the front of the house and so I’m trying to, I mean I know that over the course of the Planning
Commission there’s been a lot of different numbers but the concern expressed from the Planning
Commission as well as I think members of council tonight is what is the length of the driveway
when we’re talking from curb to the garage door? Here we’re trying to get a sense of how many
cars can be parked there? Are the cars going to be parked fully on the driveway or are they
going to be hanging off into the street because from the picture of this street there’s no.
Paul Wagner: I can’t speak on who would ever be parking there other than my guys while
they’re working under construction. I mean I don’t know who Pam’s guests would ever be or
who would be over there to visit. What I can tell you after visiting the neighborhood on several
occasions that people even from the other neighborhoods park on that street. That’s just what
they do there. It’s a tough situation for everybody. Why do you think everybody just is used to
that situation and they drive slow and go around things because people park, I mean there’s
landscapers parking out on the street.
Mayor Ryan: Right and I understand your point. What we’re trying to determine so we can
make a decision in terms of a proposal before us, what is that appropriate length of driveway and
that’s what I’m trying to get an understanding. Not,
Paul Wagner: Everybody’s got a different opinion on that and because of different length
vehicles.
Mayor Ryan: But what is?
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Paul Wagner: 21 feet. The average vehicle is 15 so.
Kate Aanenson: If I may, if we could just move past this. I think what your question was is,
what were they willing to do. What I heard them say is they didn’t want to change the driveway
length but they are willing to, they wanted to go back to the original request but they were going
to reduce the garage by 3 feet so we’re still at, the driveway at.
MacKenzie Walters: My understanding is that there’s a, with a 2 foot recess the longest portion
of the driveway would be 16 ½ feet, is that correct?
Paul Wagner: Correct.
MacKenzie Walters: Which is.
Councilman McDonald: Could that be a driveway drawing, the one we’ve got where we’ve got
the distances. Okay where’s the 2 feet on that? Push down driveway to 16.6. Does that make
that 16.6 now?
Todd Gerhardt: And how wide? You’re going to go 2 feet in but how wide is the drive?
Paul Wagner: Typically at a bump out with a 9 foot garage door you have, with the way you
have to do anything with a header it would have to be a 10 feet. To accommodate a 9 foot wide
door.
Todd Gerhardt: So it’s 2 feet deeper in, 9 feet wide.
Paul Wagner: Correct.
Mayor Ryan: But then you went down on the other two dimensions you went from 13 to 11 ½
and then 11 and 11.6 down to 8 1/2.
Paul Wagner: Correct. Which would accommodate a vehicle if they needed to park that way
parallel with the street because on a 30 foot garage, if I use 10 feet and jog that back 2 I still have
20 foot of driveway where you can park horizontal or at an angle. But I can’t be the one that
says how people are going to park there.
Mayor Ryan: Right nor am I asking to. Council any further questions for the applicant or the
builder?
Councilman McDonald: At this point I’m confused. Are you in favor of the variance where you
still want the 3 feet or are you saying that in lieu of that with this bump out you don’t need the 3
feet?
Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
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Paul Wagner: I would like my customer to leave things at the way they were under the approved
variance that was once approved but to accommodate the concern about getting at least the one
extra vehicle which would make it, the average the fourth car if need be that could completely
get off the street by taking 2 foot left out of her garage.
Councilman McDonald: Okay. So we stay at 14.6. You’re going to bump it down to, so that
gives you 16.6 so that will accommodate the fourth vehicle and then all these other dimensions
would stay so it would be 13 feet at the middle. 11.6 at the far end.
Paul Wagner: Correct.
Councilman McDonald: Okay. So that says we don’t need the variance.
Kate Aanenson: No. They still need a variance. You’re not supporting what the Planning
Commission advanced forward.
Paul Wagner: We still need the original variance.
Kate Aanenson: The original request.
Paul Wagner: Lot coverage and hard coverage and we stayed within that boundaries. In fact
we’re under what was already approved.
Councilman McDonald: Okay but those variances are different. I’m just talking about the 3
feet. I need to understand where that fits within all this because that’s what I thought the big
argument was over was that variance. So somebody clarify it for me where are we at. I mean I
understand the other variances and fine with all of those. I just wonder where we at with the
driveway?
MacKenzie Walters: What the applicant is currently proposing now would be less driveway
length than what the Planning Commission approved on May 21st.
Councilman McDonald: Okay.
Mayor Ryan: Because for clarification again I’m feeling the same way. The original variance
after it got approved last year and then it passed, the timing passed. Came back to the meeting in
May and the Planning Commission was not comfortable with what was being proposed and
expressed that they wouldn’t be able to support what was proposed and through the discussion
you came, the applicant came forward at the, I think they re-opened the public hearing and came
back. Came forward again and said we’d be willing to give the 3 feet, correct?
MacKenzie Walters: Correct and so then the entire garage would have moved back 3 feet.
Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
19
Mayor Ryan: Would have moved back and then the longest part of the driveway, at it’s longest
point from curb to garage door was going to be.
MacKenzie Walters: 17 1/2.
Mayor Ryan: 17 ½.
MacKenzie Walters: Yep with the variance that was approved by the Planning Commission on
the 21st.
Mayor Ryan: Correct. So now here we are and, and now you’re requesting you don’t want the 3
feet that you had offered at the last meeting. Instead for a portion of it you would increase it 2
feet.
Pam Reimer: I’m Pam Reimer and I need clarification. The garage is too.
Mayor Ryan: Excuse me, could you just.
Paul Wagner: It was because at that meeting, and I’m the one that made the mistake. I didn’t
have anything in front of me. Somebody said what is the depth of the garage. I said at least 26
feet so if you give up 3 feet off of 26 you still have a 23 foot depth garage which is still pretty
respectable. But when it’s only 24 and you give up 3 you’re down to 21 and that’s respectable
especially if you want to keep a boat or anything else in the, and you park your vehicle and walk
around it with groceries. So that’s where the defense came.
Mayor Ryan: And do we have these plans? I mean do we?
MacKenzie Walters: We have not received the interior floorplan for this…
Mayor Ryan: Not even for the garage.
MacKenzie Walters: Nothing.
Mayor Ryan: Okay.
Pam Reimer: So clarify yeah the garage is 24 feet and one of the people who appealed said oh
she can’t get even a boat in there. Why are we taking away garage space so.
Councilman McDonald: Okay but yeah you could get a boat in there because you’ve got the two
other bays that will be deep enough if you want to put a boat in there.
Paul Wagner: That’s exactly right.
Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
20
Pam Reimer: So I guess given the depth of the garage we did switch from 3 feet to 2 feet.
That’s what he’s asking for. But therefore you get the fourth parking spot which is what the
whole issue is.
Councilman McDonald: Okay so I think I understand what you’re getting at.
Paul Wagner: It is, it is a foot in the plan and this is the garage so. It’d be 10 feet by 2 feet.
Mayor Ryan: Go ahead Councilman Campion.
Councilman Campion: Instead of moving the 2 feet there if you did 3 feet in that spot to
accommodate to the 17 ½ feet for the parking space, that still allows the full depth for the
remaining 2 stalls with room to get a boat in as you’re saying.
Paul Wagner: That was correct.
Councilman Campion: I’m just counting, you know asking to counter to you if instead of 2 feet
bump out like you’re talking about if you did 3 feet you’d still accomplish what the Planning
Commission was requesting in the sense of…
Pam Reimer: ...I’m a single person. My kids have a Mini Cooper 12 foot and Prius 4.4 feet and
they live in Portland up by Nike and, up north. If they come to visit me they’ll all fit but yes to
answer your question I would do a single car garage. My brother who doesn’t want to but
he…so if you’re asking for 2 feet but I did the 3 feet to get everybody else who was looking at
this take away the driveway but a shorter garage and yeah amen, I’ll do it.
Mayor Ryan: And then the rest of the driveway, this is where I’m still.
Pam Reimer: We’ll stay…away from.
Mayor Ryan: What was approved by council last year?
MacKenzie Walters: The dimensions would be the same yep. It’d be 13 foot and the 11 ½
which is what was approved with the Variance Case 18-01.
Pam Reimer: Yep and it expired in February of 2018 but a month before that in January, as
MacKenzie…I showed intention of building and it lapsed because my dad had a heart attack and
I didn’t get the drawing in on time and they…so I applied within one month… I’m a smaller
person and a single lady, I got a smaller house. Less hard cover. I’m doing everything…four
times and MacKenzie says yep you’re good. Pulled out the survey and yep you’re good so.
Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
21
Paul Wagner: So at the last meeting I screwed up and I made it sound like it was a 26 foot deep
garage and I didn’t get to finish so when Helen wrote this she assumed that it was a 26 foot
garage and I would have to agree it did not need to be 23 but it’s 24 and I made a mistake.
That’s what the plan is and that’s what this survey reflects. I said 26.
Mayor Ryan: Okay thank you. Council any further questions before we turn it back for further
questions of staff? Okay thank you.
Pam Reimer: I just want to get it done. That’s why I hired them. They’re a good team.
Mayor Ryan: Alright thank you.
Pam Reimer: He’s a horticulturist and a fireman to make sure parking and everything else and
trees.
Mayor Ryan: Alright thank you. Council any further questions, clarification, concerns?
Councilman McDonald: So it looks as though we’re looking at a different thing than what was
initially brought before us and I guess I would like to see that in paper. I understand about all of
the other variances and fine with all of those but I would like to get this driveway thing written
down as to what it is. I think I’m okay with it but I want to see it committed to paper.
Mayor Ryan: So for moving forward, are you asking for new dimensions or?
Councilman McDonald: Yeah I’d like to see the same kind of presentation instead of well we’re
going to do something here. We’re going to do something there. Let’s show us what are you
going to do and that’s going to require, I don’t want to say new plans but it’s going to require at
least a new drawing. A new concept of what we’re talking about. I like the one that you had
with okay this is the old house. This is the new house. I think these are all the different zones.
How do we affect that drawing? It’s as simple as that and then I can know what I’m voting on.
Mayor Ryan: Right. So how does that.
Todd Gerhardt: You can table this item. Bring it back with the modifications as suggested and
of the 3 feet. Don’t ask me where the 3 feet’s going because I’m a little confused on that but we
can bring that drawing back and just show that and put it on a consent agenda to show you
exactly where the 3 feet is, if that’s the only concern.
Paul Wagner: …the application, the plan has to be redone.
Mayor Ryan: Sir.
Paul Wagner: That 3 feet and a new survey. We have those documents.
Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
22
Mayor Ryan: Sir. Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: Not until you get the variance.
Mayor Ryan: Excuse me please.
Kate Aanenson: Roger just for the...to show 60 days because we’ve gone on, the 60 days ending
June 18th so.
Roger Knutson: So you can just take the extra.
Kate Aanenson: Take the extra 60.
Roger Knutson: Take an extra 60 days.
Kate Aanenson: Okay just for clarification.
Mayor Ryan: And I think here’s the challenge because as we prepare for our meetings, and I
know this has been a lengthy process for the applicant but here’s the challenge that we face as a
council. So not only are we looking at this but we also are setting precedent for future plans to
come forward but specifically to this, specifically to this when we are presented the information
by the Planning Commission. By staff. We are reviewing that information and that’s what we’re
making our decision on and so when you come forward with different numbers and different
plans and different drawings we need official approval vetting from our city staff. Excuse me.
Pam Reimer: He said there would be an ability to do it.
Mayor Ryan: Okay and I understand but a council member has made the request for, in order for
him and I don’t know how the rest of council feels but by the nods the rest of council is
interested in getting some firm plans in order to be able to support or deny this variance and right
now with drawings up on a, you know on the screen and it might be 26 and it might be 24, that
leaves a lot of wiggle room for us and we don’t want to make a concrete decision when we don’t
have something that has been discussed by staff and put forward. I mean that is just the process
that we have to follow so while frustrating I’m sure because you want to move this forward, you
know I know you have been in touch with city staff and they will continue to work through this
process, I think Ms. Aanenson said or Mr. Gerhardt said it’s something that we’d put on the
consent agenda which would move it forward you know unless somebody pulled it off. If the
staff recommends what you’re proposing.
Todd Gerhardt: And the next meeting is June 24th so it’s 2 weeks out and the way I understand it
what the applicant is proposing is instead of a 2 foot recess single car garage they’re proposing a
Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
23
3 foot recessed single car garage and the other one stays at it’s current location. Just as long as
everybody kind of understands that that line isn’t moving.
Mayor Ryan: Right.
Councilman McDonald: Right but at that point the 3 foot variance that the Planning
Commission gave goes away.
Todd Gerhardt: Right.
Mayor Ryan: Right.
Councilman McDonald: Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: But you do have an extra foot of depth where the single car garage is and can
you bring up your map that shows the driveways?
MacKenzie Walters: This one?
Todd Gerhardt: Then it turns into 17.6.
Kate Aanenson: We just want to make sure all the numbers tie because we haven’t seen the
floorplan so we just want to make sure it all ties back.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah just conceptually that’s what I’m envisioning. I didn’t want anybody to
think that the 3 foot was going all along the 28 foot.
Councilman McDonald: Well and my point in asking for something hard and fast is as the
mayor said what I looked at to vote on is this based upon a variance and now we’re changing
things on the fly and I just don’t feel comfortable voting on something that I don’t have in front
of me. I agree it sounds okay and I’m sorry to put you through this but I can’t just vote on
something based upon we’ll do this. We’ll move that line here. I need something hard and fast
that everybody’s committed to so that’s why I asked for it.
Todd Gerhardt: No, and we can put it back on in 2 weeks so.
Mayor Ryan: And so then the motion is, if somebody wanted to make a motion to table it until
the 24th of June.
Councilman McDonald: I’ll make the motion to table this agenda item until the 24th.
Councilman Campion: Second.
Chanhassen City Council – June 10, 2019
24
Mayor Ryan: We have a valid motion and a second.
Councilman McDonald moved, Councilman Campion seconded that the City Council table
Planning Case 19-03, request for variances for lot cover, lake setback and front yard
setback for property located at 3617 Red Cedar Point Road. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
Mayor Ryan: That motion carries 5-0.
APPROVE CONTRACT FOR DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION OF THE POWERS
BOULEVARD/LAKE LUCY ROAD PEDESTRIAN IMPROVEMENTS.
Mayor Ryan: Jason.
Jason Wedel: Thank you Mayor, members of the council. So before you this evening is, for
your consideration is moving forward with the engineering and the design on the Powers
Boulevard/Lake Lucy Road pedestrian improvements. The proposed improvements were
reviewed last year. There was a study that was done that reviewed this intersection as well as a
section of Powers and Lake Drive. Or Park, excuse me and Park and the improvements at Park
were, some of those were completed last year but nothing had been done yet with Lake Lucy so
what had been proposed was what you see before you which was adding a center median as a
refuge for pedestrians. Putting in an advanced flasher system that would be pedestrian activated
that they could signal to cross the street and then some reconfiguration with the turn lanes and
the pedestrian ramps. So one of the renderings that had been presented last year was the, this
shows the before and after. Again this is the full length of the improvements. There is some
lengthening of the roadway because we are incorporating a left through way and a right turn lane
in each direction on Powers and then so when you add in that center median for the refuge for
pedestrian it does widen the overall width of the street through that corridor so there is some
additional grading and street widening that goes along with this project. So the cost estimates
that were prepared for this project are as such. We’ve got removals, construction, pedestrian
treatments, markings and signs and then miscellaneous gets into striping and gets into the natural
signal itself or that rapid flashing light and then engineering with a total project cost of $600,000.
The funding sources for this would be a cost share with the county per their policy. The cost
would be split 50/50. 50 percent city, 50 percent county. The City’s portion that was proposed
to be paid utilizing our state aid MSA funds. If this project were to move forward design would
begin here in July through October. We would bid out the project this fall. The trick with this
project is really the signal poles. The lead time on those signal poles for those pedestrian
crossings believe or not is 20 to 26 weeks so what we would propose to do is order those signal
poles this fall so that next spring when the rest of the construction takes place the poles would be
available and able to be installed. So what the City Council is being asked to consider this
evening is approval of the consultant contract with Bolton and Menk in the amount of $83,450
for the Powers Boulevard/Lake Lucy pedestrian improvements. They were the consulting firm