07-1-98 Agenda and Packet FILE
AGENDA
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
WEDNESDAY, JULY 1, 1998 at 7:00 P.M.
CHANHASSEN CITY HALL, 690 CITY CENTER DRIVE
CALL TO ORDER
PUBLIC HEARINGS
1. RSS/Perma Green, Inc.,RSS Golf Improvement Center--located south of the intersection
of Great Plains Blvd. and T.H. 212,on property zoned A2,Agricultural Estate District:
a) Conditional Use Permit for Alteration of a Flood Plain
b) Interim Use Permit for a Golf& Driving Range
c) Site Plan Review for a Golf& Driving Range
d) Variances to section 20-265 (2)hours of operation
e) Code Amendment to Allow Restaurant and Pro Shop
f) Wetland Alteration Permit for impact of.43 acres
NEW BUSINESS
OLD BUSINESS
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
ONGOING ITEMS
OPEN DISCUSSION
ADJOURNMENT
NOTE: Planning Commission meetings are scheduled to end by 10:30 p.m. as outlined in official by-
laws. We will make every attempt to complete the hearing for each item on the agenda. If,however,this
does not appear to be possible,the Chair person will notify those present and offer rescheduling options.
Items thus pulled from consideration will be listed first on the agenda at the next Commission meeting.
C I TY 0 F P.C.DATE: July 1, 1998
;AtCiANUAE1 C.C.DATE: July 13, 1998
CASE: 98-8 SPR,98-2 CUP,
98-2 IUP, 98-1 VAR,
98-2 ZOA,98-1 WET
• •an-nson:v
STAFF REPORT
PROPOSAL: 1) Conditional Use Permit for Alteration of a Flood Plain
2) Interim Use Permit for a Golf&Driving Range
3) Site Plan Review for a Golf& Driving Range
4) Variances to section 20-265 (2)hours of operation
1--' 5) Code Amendment to Allow Restaurant and Pro Shop
Z 6) Wetland Alteration Permit for impact of.43 acres
0 LOCATION: Just south of Trunk Highway 169/212 at Hwy. 101
APPLICANT: RSS
Jeff Helstrom and Chris Bixler
c/o Perma Green, Inc.
8276 Scandia Road
Waconia, MN 55387
Jeff- 936-4091 Chris -472-8137
4
PRESENT ZONING: A2, Agricultural Estate District
ACREAGE: 90 acres
ADJACENT ZONING
AND LAND USE: N -A2, northeast BF District
W- A2
E-A2
S - A2
QWATER AND SEWER: Not available.
QPHYSICAL CHARACTER: Wetland and flood plain on most of the property.
A portion of the property is being farmed. House and barn on
1.1.1 subject site,barn is in flood plain. Property is seasonally flooded.
I-
2000 LAND USE PLAN: Parks and Open Space and Large Lot Residential
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April 29, 1998
Page 2
PROPOSAL/SUMMARY
The applicants, Jeff Helstrom and Chris Bixler, are requesting approval for a Golf Improvement
Center which includes a golf driving range and a chip and putt course. The property is located in
the southwest corner of Hwy. 169/212 and Hwy. 101. This area is zoned A-2 Agricultural Estate
District and is guided for Parks, Open Space or Large Lot Residential. A golf course/driving
ranges is an interim use in the A-2 District. The subject site is located next to the Minnesota
River Wildlife Management Area(see Attachments D). The DNR and Fish and Wildlife Service
have commented on the proposal.
The Golf Improvement Center includes two driving ranges , a pitch and putt course a mini-putt
course and a office/clubhouse shop. The driving ranges are 100 yards wide by 275 yards deep
and 65 yards wide by 255 yards deep. The pitch and putt course comprises 9 holes. The hours
of operation will be from 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. daily. There will be 3-4 full time employees and
ultimately have 75-100 customers a day.
All but the parking , mini-putt one of the pitch and putt holes and the existing home are in the
Flood Plain. A portion of one of the driving ranges is in the wetland. A wetland alteration
permit is being recommended for approval. The land south of Hwy. 169/212 is never proposed
to have sewer. The majority of the property is in the flood plain and good planning practices are
to avoid or minimize impacts of development in the area. The site is adjacent to Assumption
Creek which is a unique water resource. Future land use designation in this area has been guided
as low density or open space specifically to protect the surrounding environmental resources.
Staff has struggled to review this development because the golf driving range use as currently
described in the city code is a temporary use. It allowed on agricultural land until such time that
the a higher or better use is permitted generally at the time when urban services are provided.
The only other golf driving range/miniature gold in the city is Swings. It is smaller in scale, is
limited to day time use and has no nets along the perimeter. This application is seeking an
office/clubhouse, restaurant with sale of alcohol, a year round driving range with 60 foot high
nets and lights, a pitch and putt course all in an environmentally sensitive area. In order to
approve the use, the applicant is seeking a variance and a code amendment. Staff believes that a
golf use is a reasonable use of the property but wants to ensure that this use will be compatible
with the surrounding area. This proposal is really more than a temporary use. It has the
characteristic of a permanent commercial operation. The applicant has made modifications to
the site plan in an attempt to address staff's concerns.
Following are the applicable ordinances:
• Section 20-31 Variances in conjunction with interim use permits
• Section 20-41 - 20-20-45 Amendment to Zoning Ordinance
• Section 20-110 Standard for site Plan Review
• Section 20-232 Conditional Use Permit- General Issuance Standards
• Section 20-265 Standards for Golf Driving Ranges.
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• Section 20-351 Conditional Use Permit for activity in the General Flood Plain.
• Section 20-381-384 Interim Use Permits
• Section 20-407 20-418 Wetland Alteration and Permitting.
• Section 20-576 Interim Use in the A-2 District - Golf driving ranges with or without
miniature golf courses.
UPDATE
This item appeared before the Planning Commission on June 3, 1998. After discussion on
numerous issues; ultimately the commission tabled action. The applicant and staff were
directed by the commission to meet with the DNR and US Fish and Wildlife to address the
impact issues. On June 11`h the applicant as well as their engineer,Kevin Bigalke and Ceil
Strauss from the MnDNR,Terry Schreiner, Manager of the Minnesota Valley Wildlife
Refuge, and Loyd Mitchell of the US Fish and Wildlife, and city staff met to discuss the
issues raised at the Planning Commission meting.
Much of the discussion centered around water quality and wetland impacts. There was
consensus that the applicants should have a fertilizer and pesticide management plan to
ensure minimal chemical impacts to the surrounding property. In addition, the applicant
shall provide annual soil samples before chemicals are applied to demonstrate there is a
need. The applicants have provided a fertilizer and pesticide management plan that staff
supports.
It was discussed that the proposed use is not a similar land use to the surrounding area.
While it was noted that golf was an interim use in the A-2 zoning district, conditions to
mitigate the impacts could be applied. A proposed recommendation was made that there
be no additional development outside the current proposal and either a conservation
easement be granted on the remaining property or the remaining property be dedicated to
the Wildlife Refuge.
The lights are still an issue. The applicant was to provide staff with views of the lights as
seen from different perspectives including State Hwys. 101 and 212. The DNR is
recommending that the lights be eliminated because they are not a part of the guidelines
for the valley. Staff is still recommending against lights.
Subsequent to the meeting staff has modified the conditions of approval to mitigate the
impacts of the proposal. Also see attached letter dated June 22, 1998 from the Minnesota
DNR Forestry Division.
BACKGROUND
The subject site is approximately 90 acres and the vast majority of the property is in the flood
plain of the Minnesota River. This means the site is subject to periodic flooding. This area is
defined by the FEMA map as a Zone A, which means the flood elevation has not been
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April29, 1998
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established (see Attachment A). The applicant must apply to FEMA for a map amendment the
establish the elevation.
There is a creek(Assumption Seminary Creek) on site and a large wetland located on the eastern
portion of the site which is under the jurisdiction of the DNR. While the creek is not adjacent to
the Golf Improvement Center,branches of the creek are found throughout the subject site. The
city's wetland inventory shows this area as a natural wetland which requires a 75' principal
structure setback and a 40 foot buffer strip. The subject site is one of the few parcels not
included in the Minnesota River"Raquet"Wildlife Management Area (see Attachment D).
The subject site is in the Bluff Creek Watershed Natural Resources Management primary zone.
This entire property has been identified as an area whose development pattern needs to be
sensitive to the watershed, including the wetland and the creek. The City Council has not
adopted the Bluff Creek Overlay District but has approved the first reading. The management
plan did an inventory of some of the natural resources in the area including vegetation and
wildlife (see Attachment E).
The site is a farmstead where a home and barn still remain on the property. A portion of the
property has been farmed although the limits of the farming activity is limited to the water level.
Last April (1997), the majority of the property was flooded when the Minnesota River flooded.
The home on the site is proposed to be remodeled for an office/clubhouse and the barn is
proposed to be removed to move the driving range out of the wetland. Both of these buildings
need to meet building codes and the issues raised by the Building Official.
Access to the site is via a new traffic signal at the intersection of Highway 101 and Hwy.
169/212. A drive access to the existing home was put in place by MnDOT during installation of
the signal.
WETLANDS
Existing Conditions
The proposed site is surrounded by natural wetlands and DNR protected wetlands 10-222w to the
west and 10-221w to the east. These wetlands are part of larger wetland basin which surround the
site from the all sides excluding the north(Hwy 212). These wetlands have been classified
ag/urban by the City of Chanhassen due to previous agricultural activities,but are connected to
flood plain basins along the Minnesota River which have important natural features such as
calcareous fens,trout streams and wildlife habitat.
The site itself is currently used for agricultural activities and it is difficult to determine if the crop
rows are within the wetland boundary. The applicant has provided the City with a delineation
report which was completed in March,which is not the ideal time to determine wetland boundaries.
Staff has met with the applicant and a revised wetland delineation,conducted in May,has been
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submitted to the City and has been accepted by staff as a valid and accurate account of wetlands on
the site.
Wetland Impacts
The proposed wetland impacts are 0.43 acres. While there is no filling of wetlands proposed,parts
of the driving range and fences fall within wetland boundaries. Wetland impacts would be the
disturbance of wetland caused by fence posts and by turf maintenance and ball retrieval within the
wetland. The applicant has attempted to reduce the impacts by keeping the driving ranges north
towards Hwy. 212, into the upland.
Wetland mitigation
The applicant has proposed a mitigation site of 0.86 acres, west of the summer driving range. This
mitigation is proposed to be a seasonally flooded area and restored with native wetland plantings.
In addition to meeting mitigation requirements,the applicant is also proposing to meet the City's
wetland buffer requirements. The plan proposes a 20 foot wide wetland buffer across most of the
site and 0 feet within the driving range area. This creates an area above the 10 foot wide average
required on Ag\urban wetlands.
GRADING, DRAINAGE AND EROSION CONTROL
The site, for the most part,has been employed in agricultural use in the past. There are areas of
trees and vegetation which will be impacted by the grading. Minimal grading is proposed to
develop the parking lot, golf tees and greens. A landscape earth berm approximately two feet
high is proposed along Trunk Highway 212. The proposed grading activities include
construction of berms, golf tees, greens,ponds and parking lot. Some of these activities are
proposed within the flood plain which is typically flooded every other spring. The fill proposed
within the flood plain to develop the golf greens and tees is proposed to be compensated on site
by excavating equal volume from adjacent areas. The applicant needs to demonstrate on the
plans specifically where the compensation will occur and how much. Importing or exporting
material for site development is not anticipated except for construction of the parking lot.
The site generally sheet drains from the north to the south into the backwaters of the Minnesota
River valley. Approximately 75% of the site is subject to annual flooding. Given the use, a high
amount of chemical fertilizers may be used on the greens and driving tees. From water quality
standpoint, all the runoff will eventually be directed into the Minnesota River valley/wetland. A
sediment pond is proposed to pretreat most of the storm water runoff from the parking lot. The
other ponds are proposed within the flood plain. These ponds are more of an aesthetic value and
for compensating the filling within the flood plain. Detailed drainage and ponding calculations
are required to verify the pond sizes in accordance with NURP standards. The outlet control
structure proposed in the sediment basin for the parking lot runoff(baffle weir structure)will
need to be replaced with an outlet control structure in accordance with the City's detail plate
number 3109. Drainage calculations for the ditch along the east property line are also needed to
verify the ditch design. Erosion control measures such as rock filter dikes, temporary rock
construction entrance and silt fence are being employed throughout the site. The rock
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construction entrance needs to be relocated further south along the driveway where the
bituminous ends. Additional silt fence needs to be shown adjacent to the berm and practice
green No. 1 in the northwest corner of the site. Temporary and/or permanent erosion control
measures should be incorporated such as wood fiber blankets and riprap to prevent erosion into
the sediment pond in the northeast corner of the site.
In conjunction with seasonal flooding the light poles, golf tees, greens, nets and ponds within the
flood plain will be subject to damage or completely obliterated. The light pole foundations can
be designed and constructed to withstand most floods. The question is raised how often will the
site be impacted and how many times will it be rebuilt.
UTILITIES
Municipal sewer and water service is not available to the site. According to the plans, the
existing dwelling is on a septic system. The existing well on the site has not been identified on
the plans and will need to be. The existing septic site should be evaluated to see if it is
functioning properly. An alternative mound site will also need to be located and preserved prior
to any construction activities commencing.
STREETS
Access to the site is from Trunk Highway 212 at a signalized intersection. Currently, there is a
24-foot wide bituminous driveway from Trunk Highway 212 servicing the existing dwelling.
The plans propose a parking lot with future parking expansion capabilities. There are no
landscape islands proposed to break up the sea of asphalt. Staff recommends adding some
landscape islands. City Code 20-1118 typically requires establishments of this nature to have
paved parking areas and drive aisles with concrete curb and gutter or bituminous curbs to direct
runoff into a storm water drainage collection system. However, given the nature of the use, staff
believes it would be appropriate to allow sheet drainage across the parking lot and only install
curbing along the north side of the parking lot where appropriate to direct stormwater runoff into
the pond. All of the storm water improvements will be private and not maintained by the City.
Some assurances should be incorporated in the interim use permit requiring annual maintenance
by the applicant. Should the maintenance not be performed, the City shall have the authority to
hire out the work and bill the applicant.
MISCELLANEOUS
The site is bordered by a wildlife refuge. The proposed fencing along the driving range may
adversely affect wildlife and waterfowl migration in the area. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service, DNR and other agencies should be consulted regarding this use and its impacts.
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SITE PLAN REVIEW
The site plan review is limited to review of the office/clubhouse parking and permitted landscaping.
The existing home is proposed to be remodeled and used for an office/clubhouse and the existing
barn is proposed to be removed. The standards for golf ranges states that buildings shall not exceed
800 square feet and be painted an earth tone. The applicants are seeking a variance for the size of
the office/clubhouse. The office/clubhouse will have hours of operation from 8:00 a.m. to 9:00
p.m. daily. The house will remain as it is except to be upgraded to meet ADA requirements and a
deck will be added. The applicants have shown two site plans. Plan#1 is 1,500 square feet. Staff
believes that this is too large. Plan#2 is 986 square feet. This proposal still needs a variance
because the maximum square foot for a building is 800 square feet. On interior of the
office/clubhouse there will be an indoor putting green,a snack bar and a fireplace with tables. In
the summer, there will be seating available on the deck. The standards for the district require that
the building be earth tones. The staff is recommending the building be painted brown. Proposed
parking is in two phases. The first phase will have parking for 56 cars in additional parking is
needed there is room for 27 more stalls. There are no lights shown for the parking lot or on the
building. All lighting must be submitted to the staff for review and approval. All lighting shall be
downcast. Landscaping should be placed on the eastern side of the parking lot to screen the lot. The
barns is now proposed to be torn down and any new maintenance building for the storage of
equipment and chemical shall be located out of the flood plain.
Building code requirements The occupancy classification of the existing building will be
changed from an R-3 occupancy to a B or M occupancy. The building code requires a building be
brought up to code when a change in its use occurs. Likely areas where code deficiencies may
occur include, exiting, accessibility,access to other levels,and separations. Accessibility
requirements may include site issues that should be addressed before site plans are finalized.
Building issues can be resolved during the building code plan review process.
Accessibility. The submitted plans do not indicate an accessible route from the parking lot to the
accessible building entrance. Accessible parking is also shown incorrectly. An eight foot wide van
access aisle and signage is required; two accessible parking stalls are required; accessible signage is
required at the head of parking stalls and access aisles.
Section 20-110, Standards for Site Plan Review,of the City Code states the Planning Commission
and the City Council shall consider compliance with the following:
1. Consistency with the elements and objectives of the city's development guidelines, including
the comprehensive plan, official road mapping and other plans that may be adopted;
2. Consistency with this division;
3. Preservation of the site in its natural state to the extent practicable by minimizing tree and soil
removal and designing grade changes to be in keeping with the general appearance of
neighboring developed or developing area;
4. Creation of a harmonious relationship of building and open space with natural site features and
with existing and future buildings having a visual relationship to the development;
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5. Creations of a functional and harmonious design for structures and site feature,with special
attention to the following;
• an internal sense of order for the buildings and uses on the site and provision of a
desirable environment for occupants,visitors and general community;
• the amount and location of open space and landscaping;
• material,textures, colors and details of construction as a expression of the design
concept and the compatibility of the same with the adjacent and neighboring structures
and uses and;
• vehicular and pedestrian circulation,including walkways, interior drives and parking in
terms of location and number of access points to the public streets, with of interior
drives and access pints, general interior circulation, separation of pedestrian and
vehicular traffic and arrangement and amount of parking.
6. Protection of adjacent and neighboring properties through the reasonable provision for surface
water drainage, sound and sight buffers,preservation of views, light and air and those aspects of
design not adequately covered by other regulations which may have substantial effects on
neighboring land uses.
7. Within the HC districts, consistency with the purpose,intent and standards of the HC districts.
Finding: The existing home should be remodeled consistent with Plan#2 for 986 square feet if
the variance is granted to allow for the larger size otherwise the home shall be limited to the 800
square feet. The barn shall be torn down to allow for the driving range and any new maintenance
building shall be located outside of the flood plain. The building shall be painted brown. A
lighting plan shall be submitted to the city for approval. Outdoor music and lighting shall be
minimal to protect the surrounding environment.
SIGNAGE
The applicant is proposing a 64' by 16' high sign. The ordinance only permits a monument sign
24 square feet in area and 5 feet high in the A-2 District. Anything larger requires a variance.
The sign appears to be in the MnDOT right-of-way and should be relocated. Signage shall be as
per city code, Section 20, Article XXVI.
LANDSCAPING
Minimum canopy coverage requirements for the proposed development is 10% , or 2.07 acres.
Existing canopy coverage for the site is 8.5%, or 1.76 acres. According to plans, the applicant is
proposing to remove .62 acres of existing canopy coverage, leaving 1.14 acres. Since the
remaining canopy coverage is less than the required 2.07 acres, a multiplier of 1.2 is used to
calculate the required replacement plantings. The difference(2.07 acres - 1.14 acres)times 1.2
equals 48,787 S.F., or 1.12 acres. One replacement tree provides 1,089 of canopy coverage,
therefore the applicant will be required to plant 45 trees within the proposed development.
A buffer yard planting will be required along T.H. 212. According to city ordinance, buffer yard
`B' will be required at a 30' standard. For every 100', one overstory tree, 2 understory trees, and
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2 shrubs will be required. Frontage along T.H. 212 measures approximately 575 feet. Minimum
required buffer yard planting totals are 6 overstory trees, 12 understory trees, and 12 shrubs.
Applicant's landscape plan meets the minimum requirements for the bufferyard plantings.
Parking lot landscaping requirements for the 18,000 square feet of parking area,not including the
future expansion, include 1,440 square feet of landscape area, 1 island or peninsula for every
6,000 s.f. of parking area, and 6 overstory trees.
General Flood Plain
Section 20-351 of the City Codes states that a conditional use permit shall be issued by the city
council in conformity the with provisions of this chapter prior to the erection, addition or
alteration on any building, structure or land, prior to the change of a nonconforming use and prior
to the placement of fill or excavation of materials within the flood plain.
1. Will not be detrimental to or endanger the public health, safety, comfort, convenience or
general welfare of the neighborhood or the city.
2. Will be consistent with the objective of the city's comprehensive plan and this chapter.
3. Will be designed, constructed, operated and maintained as to be compatible in appearance
with the existing or intended character of the general vicinity and will not change the
essential character of that area.
4. Will not be hazardous or disturbing t existing or planed neighboring uses.
5. Will be served adequately by essential public facilities and services, including streets,police
and fire protection, drainage structures,refuse disposal,water and sewer systems and schools;
or will be served adequately by such facilities and services provided by the person or
agencies responsible for the establishment of the proposed use.
6. Will not create excessive requirements for public facilities and services and will not be
detrimental to the economic welfare of the community.
7. Will not involve activities,processes,material equipment and conditions of operations that
will be detrimental to any persons,property or the general welfare because of excessive
production of traffic, noise smoke, fumes, glare, odors rodents, or trash.
8. Will nor result in the destruction, loss or damage of solar access, natural, scenic of historic
features of major significance.
9. Will be aesthetically compatible with the area.
10. Will not depreciate surrounding property values.
11. Will meet the standards prescribed for certain uses as provided in this article
The applicant will be responsible for applying for and obtaining changes to the FEMA flood plain
maps to reflect developed conditions. The applicant shall further define, graphically, the proposed
flood plain boundary and provide justification for the changes. If the property is subject to
regular flooding, staff may require the elimination of the driving range.
Section 20-384 states that an interim use shall terminate on the happening:
1. The date stated in the permit;
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2. Upon violation of conditions under which the permit was issued;
3. Upon a change in the city's zoning regulations which renders the use nonconforming.
Staff is recommending annual review of the site to ensure compliance with conditions.
Standards for golf driving ranges with or without a miniature golf course:
1. The location of the driving range is limited to being adjacent to TH 5 and TH 212 and access
must be from a collector or arterial witch leads to TH 5 or TH 212.
2. Hours of operations shall be from sunrise to sunset.
3. Provision of adequate parking areas and submission of landscaping plan in conformance with
article VIII of the zoning ordinance(section 20-1124).
4. Building on the site may not exceed eight(800) square feet and shall be painted in earth
tones.
The applicant is requesting a variance to two of the standards of this section. The location of the
operation is adjacent the TH 212. The landscaping plan is in conformance with the zoning
ordinance. If the two variances are approved, the plan would be approved, otherwise the building
square footage will have to be reduced and the hours of operation will be limited to sunrise and
sunset.
Code Amendment
The applicants are requesting a office/clubhouse as a part of the golf improvement center. As
currently defined in the city code, a golf driving range/miniature golf is a recreational use. The
use does not allow for the clubhouse. The applicant's proposal calls for a retail store where golf
related items can be purchased and a seating area where snacks and beer can be bought. Staff
would support the pro shop retail portion of the request and the snack bar if the beverage is
limited to soft drinks and no alcohol, and food is limited to prepackaged items.
Staff would recommend the following amendment Section 20-265:
5. A retail pro shop is permitted if no alcoholic beverages are sold and food is prepackaged.
There is no commercial cooking appliance allowed. Retail sales is limited to golf related items
and the pro shop.
Variance
The applicant is requesting two variances to Section 20-256, Standard for Golf Driving Ranges.
The first request is for hours of operation and the other is for the area of the office/clubhouse. The
hours of operation are from sunrise to sunset. The maximum square foot of the building site shall
not exceed 800 square feet. The applicant is requesting a variance that would allow the driving
range to be open year round. This means the area would have to have lights. The proposed
building is 986 square feet. The proposed lighting system would be in operation approximately 3-4
hours per night. The applicants have stated the lighting would be downcast and shine toward the
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hitting area but to date there are no specifications to back this up. The proposed light standards are
40 and 50 feet high and are located on the perimeters of the driving range.
The Board of Adjustments and Appeals shall not recommend and the City Council shall not grant a
variance unless they find the following facts:
a. That the literal enforcement of this chapter would cause an undue hardship. Undue
hardship means that the property cannot be put to reasonable use because of its size,
physical surroundings, shape or topography. Reasonable use includes a use made by a
majority of comparable property within 500 feet of it. The intent of this provision is not to
allow a proliferation of variances, but to recognize that there are pre-existing standards in
this neighborhood. Variances that blend with these pre-existing standards without departing
downward from them meet this criteria.
Finding: The applicant has use of the property without the night time use. Because the
house is existing and the deck appears a reasons use with the golf staff is recommending
approve of the house to allow the 986 square feet.
b. The conditions upon which a petition for a variance is based are not applicable, generally, to
other property within the same zoning classification.
Finding: There is only one or two other golf operations in the city and neither of them have
a night time use. Bluff Creek does have a pro shop/clubhouse.
c. The purpose of the variation is not based upon a desire to increase the value or income
potential of the parcel of land.
Finding: The hours of operations request of the night time use is based on the desire to
derive more income from the property. Staff is supporting the office/clubhouse variance
because of the pre-existing condition.
d. The alleged difficulty or hardship is not a self-created hardship.
Finding: The extension of hours is a self created hardship. The home is a pre-existing
condition.
e. The granting of the variance will not be detrimental to the public welfare or injurious to
other land or improvements in the neighborhood in which the parcel is located.
Finding: There is insufficient information on the impacts of the lights for the subject site
and adjoining property. Again,the house is pre-existing.
f. The proposed variation will not impair an adequate supply of light and air to adjacent
property or substantially increase the congestion of the public streets or increase the danger
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of fire or endanger the public safety or substantially diminish or impair property values
within the neighborhood.
Finding: There is insufficient evidence on the impacts of the lights. The lights are part of
the request for extended hours of operation. The house is pre-existing.
Staff supports the variance for the office/clubhouse from 800 square feet to 986 square feet as
shown on the site plan and sketch plan#2. Staff is recommending denial of the request for hours
beyond sunrise to sunset. This is an environmental sensitive area. There is insufficient evidence
to mitigate the impact of light standards 40 and 50 feet high.
INTERIM USE PERMIT
The purpose and intent of the Interim Use Permit is:
1. To allow a use for a brief period of time until a permanent location is obtained or while the
permanent location is under construction, and
2. To allow a use that is presently acceptable but that with anticipated development will it be
acceptable in the future.
Section 20-382 of the city code states "an application for an IUP must include at a minimum a
site plan that clearly illustrates the following: proposed land use,building and functions,
circulation and parking areas,planting areas and treatment, sign locations and type, lighting, the
relationship of the proposed project to neighboring uses, environment impacts and demand for
municipal services."
The planning commission shall recommend an interim use permit and the council shall issue
interim permits only if it finds that such use at the proposed location:
1_ Meets the standards of a conditional use permit set forth in section 20-232 of the City Code,
which are:
• Will not be detrimental to or endanger the public health, safety, comfort, convenience
or general welfare of the neighborhood or the city.
Finding: If the plans are modified to address staff's concerns, the standard can be met.
• Will be consistent with the objective of the city's comprehensive plan and this
chapter.
Finding: The comprehensive plan designates this area as large lot residential or parks and
open space. The property is zoned A-2. A golf course is an interim use in the A-2
District. Conditions can be attached to modify the impact.
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• Will be designed, constructed, operated and maintained as to be compatible in
appearance with the existing or intended character of the general vicinity and will not
change the essential character of that area.
Finding. By adding the nets and lights to an environmentally sensitive area will change
the character of the area. Staff is recommending that additional study be done on
wildlife migration and the impacts of the lights and the nets be considered to be lowered
as proposed by Fish and Wildlife. Wildlife gates should be left in place in the nets as
proposed by the applicant.
• Will not be hazardous or disturbing to existing or planned neighboring uses.
Finding: The chemicals to be applied should be consistent with the program submitted by
the applicant. Storage of all maintenance equipment and chemicals shall be out of the
flood plain.
• Will be served adequately by essential public facilities and services, including streets,
police and fire protection, drainage structures, refuse disposal, water and sewer
systems and schools; or will be served adequately by such facilities and services
provided by the person or agencies responsible for the establishment of the proposed
use.
Finding: The site does have access from State Hwy. 212. MnDOT is recommending that
the driveway be widened. A permit from MnDOT is required.
• Will not create excessive requirements for public facilities and services and will not
be detrimental to the economic welfare of the community.
Finding: The use of the site is limited by the flood plain and the wetlands. This use
should not be expanded so additional public facilities should not be needed.
• Will not involve activities,processes, material equipment and conditions of
operations that will be detrimental to any persons,property or the general welfare
because of excessive production of traffic,noise smoke, fumes, glare, odors rodents,
or trash.
Finding: The primary use of the site is recreational use and outdoor music and speaker
system is prohibited.
• Will nor result in the destruction, loss or damage of solar access, natural, scenice of
historic features of major significance.
Finding: There is an old barn on the property but it is in poor condition and is in the
flood plain. It is being removed to locate an additional driving range.
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Page 14
• Will be aesthetically compatible with the area.
Finding: The majority of this area is a wildlife refuge. As stated in the letter from the Fish
and Wildlife Service dated May 13, 1998, "the Service considers the project area vicinity
to contain extremely high-value natural resources, including lands owned and managed
by two public natural resource agencies,high-quality wetlands and associated fish and
wildlife habitat, the active flood plain of the Minnesota River(a high-priority
conservation area), and high aesthetic qualities... The Service has concerns about siting
the proposed facility in such an area with regards to potentially detrimental impacts to
area wetlands."
Staff is also concerned with the impacts of this use to the surrounding property. Fish and
Wildlife is recommending the net for the driving range be 40 feet high and the applicant
is proposing the height at 60 feet. The service is also recommending that the height of
the fence be 4.5 foot above the ground. The applicant is proposing a wildlife gate.
Light standards of 40 and 50 feet are proposed throughout the driving range area. (See
Proposed Lighting Plan). The lights are necessary only if the applicant is given a variance
for the extended hours of operation.
• Will not depreciate surrounding property values.
Finding: Same as previous finding.
• Will meet the standards prescribed for certain uses as provided in this article.
1. Conforms to the zoning regulations
2. The use is allowed as an interim use in the zoning district
3. The date of the event that will eliminate the use and can be identified with certainty.
4. The use will not impose additional costs on the public to take the property in the future; and
5. The use agrees to any conditions that the city council deems appropriate for
permission of the use.
Finding Staff is recommending approval of the interim use with conditions. The request for
additional hours is not recommended for approval by the staff. The applicants may request a
variance at a later date if they have additional information that could mitigate the impact.
RECOMMENDATION
The Planning Commission recommends approval of Site Plan Approval#98-8 for a golf
improvement center, including Interim Use Permit#98-2 to allow golf and driving range in an A2
District and a conditional use#98-2 for alteration of a flood plain as shown on plans dated May 26,
1998 and subject to the following conditions:
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Page 15
1. The building shall be painted brown.
2. - . - _ • .. . - :.. _ _ - - - ,.- . .' . . _ - _ _ must be
submitted to the staff for review and approval and limited to the house for security light
only and lighting shall be downcast. Landscaping should be placed on the eastern side of
the parking lot to screen the lot. ": - :.• - . -•• -- - =- - -- - - -- -
3. Signage shall be as per City Code section 20 Article XXVI.
4. The applicant will be required to plant 45 trees as replacement plantings within the
proposed development. A landscape plan must be submitted to the city for approval.
5. Landscape plan shall be revised to include 3 landscaped islands or peninsulas and 6
overstory trees for the parking lot.
6. The applicant will be responsible for applying for and obtaining changes to the FEMA flood
plain maps to reflect developed conditions. The applicant shall further define, graphically,
the proposed flood plain boundary and provide justification for the changes.
7. Staff is recommending that additional study be done on wildlife migration and the
impacts of the lights and the nets be considered to be lowered as proposed by Fish and
Wildlife. Wildlife gates should be left in place in the nets as proposed by the applicant
8. The chemicals to be applied should be consistent with the program submitted by the
applicant. Storage of all maintenance equipment and chemicals shall be out of the flood
plain.
9. MnDOT is recommending that the driveway be widened. A permit from MnDOT is
required.
10. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with
seed and disc-mulched or wood-fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of
each activity in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook.
11. The applicant shall provide detailed storm drainage calculations for the ponds and ditch
during 10-year and 100-year, 24-hour storm events in accordance with the City's Surface
Water Management Plan for the City Engineer to review and approve. The applicant shall
also provide normal water level and high water level elevations of the created ponds and/or
ditches.
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Page 16
12. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies,
i.e. Watershed-District, Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Minnesota Department of
Natural Resources, Army Corps of Engineers and Minnesota Department of Transportation
and comply with their conditions of approval.
13. No berming, drainage improvements or landscaping will be allowed within Trunk Highway
212 right-of-way.
14. b- --- - - --- . - .. . .. - ., . - •- - - - - : - - _ - . . _
15.
16. The plans shall be modified as follows:
a. The existing well shall be located and shown on the plans.
b. Relocate rock construction entrance south at a point where the existing driveway will be
altered/reconstructed.
c. Demonstrate where and how much filling and excavating will occur within the flood
plain, i.e. quantities of each activity.
d. Show normal and high water elevation of each pond.
e. Add silt fence downstream of proposed berms and practice green No. 1 in the northwest
corner of the site.
f. Provide temporary and/or permanent erosion control measures around sediment pond in
northeast corner of the site.
g. Incorporate MnDOT's comments regarding widening of the driveway at Trunk Highway
212 and right-of-way identification per letter dated May 21, 1998.
h. Locate alternative mound site and preserve from construction activities.
i. Add landscape islands in parking lot.
j. Add curbs along north side of parking lot to direct runoff to sediment pond.
18. The applicant shall be responsible for maintenance of the storm drainage improvements
(ponds and ditches). Failure to properly maintain the storm drainage improvement shall
give the City the right to hire out the work and bill the applicant and/or revoke the interim
use permit."
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Page 17
19. No additional development outside the current proposal and either a conservation
easement be granted on the remaining property or the remaining property be
dedicated to the Wildlife Refuge.
20. The applicant should have a fertilizer and pesticide management plan to ensure
minimal chemical impacts to the surrounding property. In addition the
applicant shall provide annual soil samples before chemical are applied to
demonstrate there is a need."
Code Amendment
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of Code Amendment #98-1 to amend Section
20-265, Standards for Golf Driving Ranges, as follows:
5. A retail pro shop is permitted if no alcoholic beverages are sold and food is prepackaged.
There is no commercial cooking appliance allowed. Retail sales is limited to golf related items
and the pro shop. "
Variance
"The Planning Commission recommends on Variance#98-1 denial on the request for extended
hours of operation and approval of the square footage of the office/club house to 986 square feet as
per the site plan and the findings in the staff report."
Wetland Alteration Permit
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of Wetland Alteration Permit#98-1 per the site
plan and the following conditions:
1. The applicant shall provide a buffer zone between wetlands the limits of the pitch and putt
golf course.
2. Wetland Conservation Act and the City of Chanhassen Surface Water Management Plan
requirements.
3. The applicant receive permits from the jurisdiction agencies such as the Army Corps of
Engineers and the DNR .
4. The applicant shall develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the
City's Best Management Practice Handbook. Type III erosion control fencing will be
required around the existing wetlands.
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Page 18
5. Wetland buffer areas shall be surveyed and staked in accordance with the City's wetland
ordinance. The City will provide wetland buffer edge signs and charge the applicant$20 per
sign. The applicant shall verify the location of these signs with the City's Water Resources
Coordinator and shall install these signs before the Certificate of Occupancy is issued.
6. Wetland buffer areas shall be surveyed and staked in accordance with the City's wetland
ordinance. The City will install wetland buffer edge signs before accepting the utilities and
will charge the applicant$20 per sign."
ATTACHMENTS
1. The subject site is located next to the Minnesota River Wildlife Management Area (see
Attachments A & B).
A. FEMA map as a Zone A
B. Zoning map.
C. Land use map.
D. Wildlife Management area map.
E. Bluff Creek Management Plan inventory
F. Application
G. Acorn Environmental Consultants, Wetland Delineation Report dated April 2, 1998.
H. Memo from Dave Hempel, Asst. City Engineer dated May 28, 1998.
I. Memo from Steve Kirchman, Building Official dated April 28, 1998.
J. Letter from DNR dated May 4, 1998.
K. Letter from Fish and Wildlife dated May 13, 1998.
L. Letter from MnDOT dated May 1, 1998.
M. Letter to Hesse Farm property owners.
N. Planning Commission minutes dated June 3, 1998.
g:\plan\calgolf imp centerl.pc.doc
DNR Forestry Fax:612-772-7599 Jun 22 '98 14:07 F. 02.04
•
Iof 1.uNry$so •Minnesota Department of Natural ResourcesINNxMetro - Waters, 1200 Warner Rd, St Paul, N 55106
/ Phone: (612)772-6152, Fax: (612)772-7977
°PNATO"'P
June 11, 1998
Ms. Kathryn A.Aanenson
City of Chanhassen
690 City Center Dr. P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen,MN 55317
Re: Planning Case: 98-2 CUP and 98-8 Site Plan, RSS Golf Improvement Center,Assumption
Creek and Public Water Wetland 10-221W, City of Chanhassen, Carver County
Dear Ms. Aanenson:
Cell Strauss and I have discussed the topics considered at the June 11, 1998 meeting about the
development plans by RSS Golf Improvement Center. Following are specific comments on the
changes made to the development plans:
1. We are concerned that the property is in close proximity to Assumption Creek, which is
officially designated by the DNR Commissioner as a trout stream. We feel that the
proposed development is an adequate distance from the creek. Soil tests should be taken
every year prior to fertilizer application. The organic fertilizer to be used is fine. The
2-4.1) based herbicide is a concern. An alternative should be used. We recommend the
developers to have a nutrient/pesticide/herbicide management plan for the facility with
annual reports produced regarding the application rates,application periods,and methods.
2. We want to be assured that the no mow/no impact buffer will be established. This will
aid in reducing runoff from the development.
3. Federal, state, and local floodplain regulations need to be addressed in the floodplain of
the Minnesota River. The plan does show the 100-year flood elevation, and most of the
proposed grading is within the floodplain. No net change in the flood storage area within
the floodplain is shown,however,the alterations within the floodway need to be analyzed
to ensure the changes in the floodplain cross-section does not increase the flood stage
upstream or downstream of the project area.
4. The stormwater treatment issues expressed earlier have been addressed. We are still
concerned about runoff,but feel that the storage pond near the parking lot addresses those
concerns.
DNR Info:11)41 n;612-296-6157, i-800-766-5600 • -1Ty:612.296-5434, 1-800-657-3929
An Equal Oppa.7e::it--.E.- �;_-er / P:it::c5 R..^;;
c;cu P::^.:r CV:I L:I is C:_
DNR Forestry Fax:612-772-7599 Jun 22 '98 14:07 P.07.04
Ms. Kathryn A Aanenson
June 22, 1998
Page 2
5. The proposed changes to net height are satisfactory. The proposed net height of 4.5 feet
off the ground is adequate for wildlife to pass under them. The divided sections of net
also will enable wildlife to get out of the netted area. However,there are still concerns
about the impacts of the vertical height of the nets on birds. If you have not already
received comments from DNR Non-game Wildlife Manager Joan Galli, she should be
contacted for input at 297-2277.
6_ With the removal of the areas of future expansion, the need for additional sewage
treatment and stormwater treatment have been eliminated.
7. We feel that the areas not developed should be allowed to return to its natural condition
with no further development allowed. We would recommend the developers consider an
easement donation of the undeveloped areas to the Department of Natural Resources or
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in the future.
8. The proposed use of lights are a major concern. This does not follow the recreation plan
guidelines for the valley. We recommend that lights not be allowed at this time.
9. A final concern is the general compatibility of the proposed golf facility with the
surrounding area and landuse. This proposed development is not of similar landuse to the
surrounding area.
10. The following comments are general and apply to all proposed developments:
a. Appropriate erosion control measures should be taken during the construction
period. The Minnesota Construction Site Erosion and Sediment Control
Planning Handbook (Board of Water& Soil Resources and Association of
Metropolitan and Soil and Water Conservation Districts) guidelines, or their
equivalent, should be followed.
b. If construction involves dewatering in excess of 10,000 gallons per day or 1
million gallons per year, a DNR appropriations permit is needed. You are advised
that it typically takes approximately 60 days to process the permit application.
This will NOT be a routine permit application when the site is near a calcareous
fen.
c. Construction activities which disturb five acres of land, or more, are required to
apply for a stormwater permit from the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency(Dan
Sullivan @ 296-7219).
DNR Forestry Fax:612-772-7599 Jun 22 '98 14:08 P.04/04
Ms. Kathryn A. Aanenson
June 22, 1998
Page 3
d. Except as noted above,the comments in this letter address DNR-Division of
Waters jurisdictional matters and concerns. These comments should not be
construed as DNR support or lack thereof for a particular project.
Please contact me at 772-6152, Ceil Strauss at 772-7914, or Hannah Dunevitz at 772-7570
should you have any questions regarding these comments.
Sincerely,
44,2
Kevin Bigalke
1VLti
DNR
Metro Trout Stream Watershed Coordinator
cc: DNR Waters, Ceil Strauss
DNR Ecological Services, Wayne Barstad,Hannah Dunevitz
DNR Wildlife, Joan Galli
DNR Fisheries, Mike Halverson,Jason Moeckel
Lower Minnesota River Watershed District,Larry Samstad
Roger Anderson, Project Consultant
Golf Improvement Center / Gong Pi
April 29, 1998 ¢g
Page 14 �p-27'
• Will meet the standards prescribed for certain uses as provided in this article.
1. Conforms to the zoning regulations
2_ The use is allowed as an interim use in the zoning district
3. The date of the event that will eliminate the use and can be identified with certainty.
4. The use will not impose additional costs on the public to take the property in the future; and
5. The use agrees to any conditions that the city council deems appropriate for
permission of the use.
Finding Staff is recommending approval of the interim use with conditions. The request for
a. ditional hours is not recommended for approval by the staff. The applicants may request a
M10 . -ance at a later date if they have additional information that could mitigate the impact.
Co
RECOMMENDATION
The Planning Commission recommends approval of Site Plan Approval#98-8 for a golf
improvement center, including Interim Use Permit#98-2 to allow golf and driving range in an A2
District and a conditional use#98-2 for alteration of a flood plain as shown on plans dated May 26,
1998:
,e`L,e1 1. The building shall be painted brown.
2. There are no lights shown for the parking lot or on the building. All lighting must be
-v) submitted to the staff for review and approval. All lighting shall be downcast. Landscaping
should be placed on the eastern side of the parking lot to screen the lot The barns is now
proposed to be torn down and any new maintenance building for the storage of equipment
and chemical shall be located out of the flood plain.
.4-,'`o„.4 3, Signage shall be as per City Code section 20 Article XXVI.
�
,�Lo�e''' 4. The applicant will be required to plant 45 trees as replacement plantings within the
proposed development. A landscape plan must be submitted to the city for approval.
�:ft 5_ Landscape plan shall be revised to include 3 landscaped islands or peninsulas and 6
,.° overstory trees for the parking lot.
xis
t�:' �` 6_ The applicant will be responsible for applying for and obtaining changes to the FEMA flood
SS\ct\t '�, plain maps to reflect developed conditions. The applicant shall further define, graphically,
.t,` . 0,, the proposed flood plain boundary and provide justification for the changes.
.rst.' titi
irri 7. Staff is recommending that additional study be done on wildlife migration and the
�j- h and
`_,t` ` `�.' Wldl f. Wi�ldliacts of the f etsand the nets should be left ine tdlacein theto be lnets as roproposed
osed the a pliant
,;\ If, L' gatesp proposed by PP
e'
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Pagc 15
4e� V°'".8. The chemicals to be applied should be consistent with the program submitted by the
,rr•5''" applicant. Storage of all maintenance equipment and chemicals shall be out of the flood
plain.
";; ,rfl� 9. MnDOT is recommending that the driveway be widened. A permit from MnDOT is
required.
it\1
° 10. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with
seed and disc-mulched or wood-fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of
each activity in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook.
f?` 11. The applicant shall provide detailed storm drainage calculations for the ponds and ditch
444 during 10-year and 100-year, 24-hour storm events in accordance with the City's Surface
Water Management Plan for the City Engineer to review and approve. The applicant shall
also provide normal water level and high water level elevations of the created ponds and/or
ditches.
;40*.;;2. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies,
i.e. Watershed District, Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Minnesota Department of
KI��J Natural Resources, Army Corps of Engineers and Minnesota Department of Transportation
.r' and comply with their conditions of approval.
t° 13. No perming, drainage improvements or landscaping will be allowed within Trunk Highway
212 right-of-way.
u�¢P a�iai4. d The proposed stormwater ponds must have side slopes of 10:1 for the first ten feet at the
rvair e and,(5r°,,,)normaj water level and no more than 3:1 the or ,4:1 throughout for safety purposes.
po 5 in ranlyf d O;r'4 pv]t c 'vvs� are aes*1u c rondS. NwLS �,,i 6� d� �► ^��
}.� vro,� .tiYCAv., 'i"4 �tov►,dr✓ulvt t(e 'Aho+-� A e��k I0„hht.
Pc, 15.15. The use of chemical fertilizers shall be prohibited within the flood plain.
5yov' 16. The plans shall be modified as follows:
rc'
✓a The existing well shall be located and shown on the plans.
,✓b. Relocate rock construction entrance south at a point where the existing driveway will be
al tered/reconstructed.
./c. Demonstrate where and how much filling and excavating will occur within the flood
plain,i.e. quantities of each activity.
ofiJ
fid. Show normal and high water elevation of each pond.
a b' ,/
Pz �o � vg'. Add silt fence downstream of proposed berms and practice green No. 1 in the northwest
e, - r� corner of the site.
b'\�5-
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Page 16
V f: Provide temporary and/or permanent erosion control measures around sediment pond in
northeast corner of the site.
v\°\
c° rg. Incorporate MnDOT's comments regarding widening of the driveway at Trunk Highway
r�a"C k° 212 and right-of-way identification per letter dated May 21, 1998.
�� �' �fi. Locate alternative mound site and preserve from construction activities.
/
r
Z. Add landscape islands in parking lot*
Add curbs along north side of parking lot to direct runoff to sediment pond. -411i
• 18. The applicant shall be responsible for maintenance of the storm drainage improvements
GC (ponds and ditches). Failure to properly maintain the storm drainage improvement shall
give the City the right to hire out the work and bill the applicant and/or revoke the interim
use permit."
Code Amendment
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of Code Amendment #98-1 to amend Section
20-265, Standards for Golf Driving Ranges, as follows:
S. A retail pro shop is permitted if no alcoholic beverages are sold and food is prepackaged.
There is no commercial cooking appliance allowed. Retail sales is limited to golf related items
and the pro shop. "
Variance
"The Planning Commission recommends on Variance#98-1 denial on the request for extended
hours of operation and approval of the square footage of the office/club house to 986 square feet as
.per the site plan and the findings in the staff report."
Wetland Alteration Permit
"The Planning Commission recommends approval of Wetland Alteration Permit#98-1 per the site
plan and the following conditions:
•f 1. The applicant shall provide a buffer zone between wetlands the limits of the pitch and putt
golf course.
Wetland Conservation Act and the City of Chanhassen Surface Water Management Plan
requirements.
Golf Improvement Center
April 29, 1998
Page 17
✓3_ The applicant receive permits from the jurisdiction agencies such as the Army Corps of
Engineers and the DNR .
The applicant shall develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the
City's Best Management Practice Handbook. Type III erosion control fencing will be
required around the existing wetlands.
✓5. Wetland buffer areas shall be surveyed and staked in accordance with the City's wetland
ordinance. The City will provide wetland buffer edge signs and charge the applicant $20 per
sign. The applicant shall verify the location of these signs with the City's Water Resources
Coordinator and shall install these signs before the Certificate of Occupancy is issued.
1. Wetland buffer areas shall be surveyed and staked in accordance with the City's wetland
ordinance. The City will install wetland buffer edge signs before accepting the utilities and
will charge the applicant $20 per sign."
ATTACHMENTS
1. The subject site is located next to the Minnesota River Wildlife Management Area (see
Attachments A & B).
A. FEMA map as a Zone A
B. Zoning map.
C. Land use map.
D. Wildlife Management area map.
E. Bluff Creek Management Plan inventory
F. Application
G. Acorn Environmental Consultants, Wetland Delineation Report dated April 2, 1998.
H. Memo from Dave Hempel, Asst City Engineer dated May 28, 1998.
L Memo from Steve Kirchman, Building Official dated April 28, 1998_
J. Letter from DNR dated May 4, 1998.
K. Letter from Fish and Wildlife dated May 13, 1998.
L. Letter from MnDOT dated May 1, 1998.
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ZONING MAP
9700
RR Rural Residential District
RSF Single Family Residential District
R4 Mixed Low Density Residential District 10070
R12 High Density Residential District
PUDR Planned Unit Devel./Residential District 10270 ---
10330
PUD Planned Unit Development District
10430
A2 Agricultural Preservation District
10530
CBD Central Business District 10630
BH Highway & Business District :0700
BF Fringe Business District 10900
10990
BG General Business District N
11030
BN Neighborhood Business District
11170
1OP Industrial Office Park District 11230
01 Office & Institutional District 11330
NE Natural Environment Lake 11400
RD Recreational Development Lake
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ATTACHMENT C
CHANHAS SEN 94Uu
9400
2000 LAND USE PLAN 9S00
9600
9700
9800 _--
9900 —
Residential - Large Lot* * 10000
(2.5 acre minumum 1/10 acre outside of MUSA) 10100
Residential - Low Density 10200
(Net Density Range 1 .2 - 4 u/Acre) 10300
Residential - Medium Density 1040D
(Net Density Range 4 - 8 u/Acre) 1050
• g Residential - High Density 10600
(Net Density Range 8 - 16 u8/Acre) {
10700
•••• Commerical 10800
ITH Office/Industrial
i 10900
11000
Office 111„
Parks/Open Space 11200
kd:s.
11300
Public/Semi-Public
11400
Mixed Use
I" MUSA LINE N Proposed T.H. 212
e e
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SCALE 1:24000
1000 0 1000 2000 3000 4000
FEET
REVISED, January, 1998
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APPENDIX B
I
CITY OF CHANHASSEN-BLUFF CREEK ENVIRONMENTAL CORRIDOR
WILDLIFE SPECIES LISTING FOR WETLAND COMMUNITIES
SPECIES COMMONLY OBSERVED OR LIKELY TO BE PRESENT
Mammals: Muskrat(Ondatra zibethicus) Masked shrew(Sorex cinereus)
Common raccoon(Procyon lotor) Northern short-tailed shrew(Blarina brevicauda)
Beaver(Castor canadensis) Meadow vole(Microtus pennsylvanicus)
Mink(Mustela vison) Meadow jumping mouse(Zapus hudsonius)
Striped skunk(Mephitis mephitis)
Birds: Canada goose(Branta canadensis) Swamp sparrow(Melospiza georgiana)
Mallard(Anas platyrhynchos) Red winged blackbird(Agelaigus phoeniceus)
Sora(Porzana carolina) Least bittern(Ixobrychus exilis)
American coot(Fulica americana) Virginia rail(Rallus limicola)
Marsh wren(Cistothorus palustris) Black tern(Chlidonias niger)
Common yellow throat(Geothlypis triches) Yellow headed blackbird(X.xanthocephalus)
American goldfinch(Carduelis tristis)
I
Amphibians/reptiles Tiger salamander(Ambystoma tigrinum) Green frog(Rana clamitans)
American toad(Bufo americanus) Northern Lepard frog(Rana pipiens)
Spring peeper(Pseudacris crucifer) Painted turtle(Chrysemys pitta)
Chorus frog(P.riseriata) Eastern garter snake(Thamnophis sirtalis)
ENDANGERED,THREATENED OR SPECIAL CONCERN SPECIES
THAT MIGHT OCCUR IN THE VICINITY OF BLUFF CREEK
Mamjnals: (None listed)
Birds: American bittern(Botaurus lentiginosus)
Common moorhen(Gallinula chloropus)
Amphibians/reptiles: Blanding's turtle(Emydoidea blandingii)
Snapping turtle(Chelydra serpentina)
I
131iiff creek Water5Gied Natural Re5oL1rce5 Management Plan _ �- -
I
I . .
I
IAPPENDIX A
I
CITY OF CHANHASSEN -BLUFF CREEK ENVIRONMENTAL CORRIDOR
IWILDLIFE SPECIES LISTING FOR UPLAND FORESTED NATURAL COMMUNITIES
ISPECIES COMMONLY OBSERVED OR LIKELY TO BE PRESENT
Mammals: White-tailed deer(Odocoileus virginianus) Eastern chipmunk(Tamius striatus)
Gray fox(Uricyon cineoargenteus) S.flying squirrel(Glaucomys volans)
I Red fox(Vulpes vulpes) Gray squirrel(Sciurus carolinensis)
Common raccoon(Procyon lotor) Masked shrew(Sores cinereus)
Eastern cottontail(Sylvilagus floridanus) Eastern mole(Scalcpus aquaticus)
I Deer mouse(Odocoileus voganaanu,) N.short-tailed shrew(Blarina brevicauda)
Coyote(Canis latrans)
I Birds: Black capped chickadee(Panus atricapillus) Eastern wood pewee(Conropus virens)
White breasted nuthatch(Sista carolinensis) Grt crested flycatcher(Myairchu scrinitus)
Blue jay(Cyanocitta cristata) Yellow-throated vireo(Vireo flavifrons)
. Downy woodpecker(Picoides pubescens) Red-eyed vireo(Vireo olivaceus)
I Great horned owl(Bubo virginianus)
Barred owl(Strix varia) Ovenbird(Seiurus aurocapillus)
Scarlet tanager(Piranga olivacea)
Least flycatcher(Empidonax minimus) Veery(Catharus fuscescens)
Wild turkey(Meleagris gallopavo) Wood thrush(Hylocichla mustelina)
I
Red-tailed hawk(Buten jamaicensis) Yellow bellied sapsucker(S. varius)
IAmphibians/reptiles: Blue-spotted salamander(A.laterale) Eastern gray treefrog(Hyla versicolor)
American toad(Bufo americanus) E.garter snake(Thamnophis sirtalis)
Spring peeper(Pseudacris crucifer) Wood frog(Rana sylvatica)
ENDANGERED,THREATENED OR SPECIAL CONCERN SPECIES
ITHAT MIGHT OCCUR IN THE VICINITY OF BLUFF CREEK
Mammals: Eastern spotted skunk(Spilogale putoris)
Il
Birds: Red-shouldered hawk(Buren lineatus)
n Louisiana waterthrush(Sciurus motacilla)
1 Amphibians/Reptiles: Fox snake(Elaphe vulpina)
Bullsnake(Pituophis melanoleucus)
Milk snake(Lampropeltis triangulum) •
Blue racer(Coluber constrictor)
1
Bluff Creep Watershed Natural Resources Management Plan _ - .a l 's' d' .
I
22i29/90 13:45:16 612-937-5739—> 612 596 H085 Ptgc 2
Appil.ca-E ion Coro It ono I L)9e � f
ono
Si+-e Plan 2e\iiev'-i
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
880 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN,MN 55317
(812)937.1000
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW APPLICATION
Jecc HOS tram
APPLICANT: SS
)S5 L Chr1.5 Six let- OWNER: SCAM e
ADDRESS: C`O Pee M4 Green Inc. ADORE88:
82riu Sca ntha k.0o dI
W a ccnk. M N
55 '7
TELEPHONE(Day time)(134)•4Uq! ',er.q47Z-8431 TELEPHONE:
Comprehensive Plan Amendment
_ Temporary Sales Permit
Conditional Use Permit 4 e-}co.a0 Vacation of ROW/Easements
Interim Use Permit Variance
Non .onforming Use Permit _ Wetland Alteration Permit
Planned Unit Devolopmenl' _ Zoning Appeal
Rezoning _,.._ Zoning Ordinance Amendment
Sign Permits
Sign Plan Review Notification Sign
Site Plan Review• Ce' X Eeo Ing Fees/Attomey Cost"
$60 CUP PRNACNARIWAP/Motes
an ounda,5400 Minor SUB)
Subdivision' TOTAL FEE t► 0•63° •
A list of all property owners within 500 foot of the boundaries of the property must be Included with the
application.
Building materiel samples must be submitted with alto plan reviews.
'Twenty-six full size folded copies of the plans must be submitted,Including en IV/"X 11"reduced copy of
transparency for each plan sheet.
Escrow will be required for other applications through tho development contract
NOTE-When multiple applications oro processed,the appropriate fee shall be charged for oach application.
Hz./21/90 13:45:35 612-937-5739-> 612 546 B885 Paye 3
PROJECT NAME " I f 5nalti 1, 1 • W e M entf (leo telt-
LOCATION
.elt-LOCATION t VJCkil 212 s Creat- P10,M5 C3culeicu'd
LEGAL DESCRIPTION A_U t Uf oar+ C* the r rth 21.o•UC a cf 5 (83(o.I to f t TQF it 1,-10''jt we5t •)(frEez 0�
The SattheQS+ Ctrs+tr and tine EaS+• µp.tF of the Sa11ietcas Quart a.elm in $action 3S, Tt5.vn5I ip Itt',
Ra • • Cary. a s+ µC , • I irk• SW erL • ScUtA rr • • , Icne • F -r me
t4 t'ghwaV tk..lo. 2.12. an• l0' rme(ty the ha5K4 and 5n6-Kapee rOC1Q ontlalso • 1,4e11y r Ltuc 1-4I4h+J4V
TOTAL ACREAGE_ qty.5 `/ Win. SIS •
WETLANDS PRESENT YES NO
P\
x
PRESENT ZONING r\ • 2 Ater l C U I tul(ut.A Pre5erUati
REQUESTED ZONING A M e
PRESENT LAND USE DESIGNATION P.,erl a) Itur(,I
REQUESTED LAND USE DE=SIGNATION Glob FSS C.. V c
REASON FOR THIS REQUEST To c onscruck a QpI F (NApfaie Ian tL
ccrlt,efIOri ing 1a
This application must be completed In full and be typewritten or clearly printed end must be accompanied by all Information
and plans required by applicable City Ordinance provIsipne. Before filing this application,you should confer with the Planning
Department to determine tho specific ordinance and procedural requirements applicable to your application.
A determination of completeness of the application shall be made within ten business days of application submittal. A written
notice of application deficiencies shall be mailed to the applicant within len business days of application.
This Is to oertlfy that I em making application for the described eotton by the City and that t am responsible for complying with
all Olty requirements with regard to this request. This application should be processed In my name and I am the party whom
the bity should contact regarding any matter pertaining to this application. I have attached a Dopy of proof of ownership
(either copy of Owner's Duplicate Certificate of Title, Abstract of Title or purchase agreement), or I em the authorized person
to rrjake this application and the fee owner has also signed this application.
I will keep myself Informed of the deadlines for submission of materiel and the progress of this application. I further
understand that additional fees may be charged for consulting fees, feasibility studies, etc. with an estimate prior to any
authorization to proceed with the study. The documents end Information I have submitted ere true and•correct to the best of
my knowledge.
The olty hereby notifies the applicant that development review cannot be completed within CO days due to public hearing
regUlrements and agency review. Therefore, the city Is notifying the applicant that the city requires an automatic 80 day
extension for development review. Development review shall be completed within 120 days unless additional review
extensions are approved by the applicant.
343
Sig i . •f Appllca t Date•
r 3-l3lP
v.-or-re of Foe Owner ?0u41,i.'¢ Date
Application Received on — Fee Pald Receipt No.
Tho applicant should contact staff for a copy of the staff report which will be available on Friday prior to tho meeting.
If not contacted,a copy of tho report will be mailed to the applicant's address.
+••ENG.••
ree •od/
hip
n
NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING ''' Eam R
441621 PLANNING COMMISSION —
Wednesday, May 6, 1998 T ��;��
at 7:00 p.m.
City Hall Council Chambers
690 City Center Drive Oor,••gee '
lt
u5
C.6
6:9
SUBJECT: Request for a Conditional Use s'df�
Permit and Site Plan Review fora e,
Golf Improvement Center/Driving Range
APPLICANT: RSS/Perma Green, Inc.
LOCATION: South of Great Plains Blvd.
and Hwy. 212
NOTICE: You are invited to attend a public hearing about a proposal in your area. The
applicant, RSS/Perma Green, Inc., is requesting a conditional use permit and site plan review
to allow a golf improvement center/driving range to be located south of the intersection of
Great Plains Blvd. and T.H. 212, on property zoned A2, Agricultural Estate District, RSS Golf
Improvement Center.
What Happens at the Meeting: The purpose of this public hearing is to inform you about the
developer's request and to obtain input from the neighborhood about this project. During the
meeting, the Commission Chair will lead the public hearing through the following steps:
1. Staff will give an overview of the proposed project.
2. The Developer will present plans on the project.
3. Comments are received from the public.
4. Public hearing is closed and the Commission discusses project. The commission will then
make a recommendation to the City Council.
Questions and Comments: If you want to see the plans before the meeting, please stop by City
Hall during office hours, 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., Monday through Friday. If you wish to talk to
someone about this project, please contact Kate at 937-1900 ext. 118. If you choose to
submit written comments, it is helpful to have one copy to the department in advance of the meeting.
Staff will provide copies to the Commission.
Notice of this public hearing has been published in the Chanhassen Villager on April 23, 1998. )Zit )14
SKIP COOK PATRICK BLOOD
15506 VILLAGE WOODS DR NANCY LEE
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55347 P.O. BOX
SHAKOPEE, MN 55379
UBA PARTNERSHIP
7301 OHMS LN#345
EDINA, MN 55439
EMERALD PROPERTIES
PO BOX 260
CHASKA, MN 55318
JOHN MALZAHN
10551 GREAT PLAINS BLVD
CHASKA.MN 55318
MN.DOT FIELD
1500 COUNTY ROAD B2 WEST
ROSEVILLE. MN 55113
EMERALD PROPERTIES
6609 DAKOTA TRAIL
EDINA. MN 55439
SEVERIN PETERSON,JR
15900 FLYING CLOUD DRIVE
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55344
HAROLD F HESSE
1425 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASKA, MN 55318
DAVID ZAMJAHN
7506 WEST 77TH STREET
CHASKA. MN 55318
SKIP COOK
7625 LYNDALE AVE S
RICHFIELD, MN 55423
101
CITY OF
CHA HASSEN MEMORANDUM
690 City Center Drive,PO Box 147 TO: Kate Aanenson, Planning Director
Chanhassen,Minnesota 55317
Phone 612.937.1900 FROM: Dave Hempel, Assistant City Engineer Im„_L
General Fax 612.937.5739
Engineering Fax 612.9379152 DATE: May 28, 1998
Public Safety Fax 612.934.2524
Web wu'wci.chanhassen.mn.«s SUBJ: Review of Revised Site Plan for RSS Golf Improvement Center
Trunk Highways 212 and 101
File No. 98-12 LUR
Upon review of the plans prepared by Roger Anderson & Associates dated March
13, 1998,revised May 27, 1998, I offer the following comments and
recommendations:
GRADING,DRAINAGE AND EROSION CONTROL
The site,for the most part, has been employed in agricultural use in the past.
There are areas of trees and vegetation which will be impacted by the grading.
Minimal grading is proposed to develop the parking lot, golf tees and greens. A
landscape earth berm approximately two feet high is proposed along Trunk
Highway 212. The proposed grading activities include construction of berms, golf
tees, greens, ponds and parking lot. Some of these activities are proposed within
the flood plain which is typically flooded every other spring. The fill proposed
within the flood plain to develop the golf greens and tees is proposed to be
compensated on site by excavating equal volume from adjacent areas. The
applicant needs to demonstrate on the plans specifically where the compensation
will occur and how much. Importing or exporting material for site development is
not anticipated except for construction of the parking lot.
The site generally sheet drains from the north to the south into the backwaters of
the Minnesota River valley. Approximately 75% of the site is subject to annual
flooding. Given the use,a high amount of chemical fertilizers may be used on the
greens and driving tees. From water quality standpoint, all the runoff will
eventually be directed into the Minnesota River valley/wetland. A sediment pond
is proposed to pretreat most of the storm water runoff from the parking lot. The
other ponds are proposed within the flood plain. These ponds are more of an
aesthetic value and for compensating the filling within the flood plain. Detailed
The City of Chanhassen.A growing community with clean lakes,quality schools,a charming downtown,thriving businesses,and beautiful pans.A great place to lire, work,and play.
Kate Aanenson
RSS Golf Improvement Center Site Plan Review
May 28, 1998
Page 2
drainage and ponding calculations are required to verify the pond sizes in
accordance with NURP standards. The outlet control structure proposed in the
sediment basin for the parking lot runoff(baffle weir structure) will need to be
replaced with an outlet control structure in accordance with the City's detail plate
number 3109. Drainage calculations for the ditch along the east property line are
also needed to verify the ditch design. Erosion control measures such as rock filter
dikes, temporary rock construction entrance and silt fence are being employed
throughout the site. The rock construction entrance needs to be relocated further
south along the driveway where the bituminous ends. Additional silt fence needs
to be shown adjacent to the berm and practice green No. 1 in the northwest corner
of the site. Temporary and/or permanent erosion control measures should be
incorporated such as wood fiber blankets and riprap to prevent erosion into the
sediment pond in the northeast corner of the site.
In conjunction with seasonal flooding the light poles, golf tees, greens, nets and
ponds within the flood plain will be subject to damage or completely obliterated.
The light pole foundations can be designed and constructed to withstand most
floods. The question is raised how often will the site be impacted and how many
times will it be rebuilt.
UTILITIES
Municipal sewer and water service is not available to the site. According to the
plans, the existing dwelling is on a septic system. The existing well on the site has
not been identified on the plans and will need to be. The existing septic site should
be evaluated to see if it is functioning properly. An alternative mound site will also
need to be located and preserved prior to any construction activities commencing.
STREETS
Access to the site is from Trunk Highway 212 at a signalized intersection.
Currently there is a 24-foot wide bituminous driveway from Trunk Highway 212
servicing the existing dwelling. The plans propose a parking lot with future
parking expansion capabilities. There are no landscape islands proposed to break
up the sea of asphalt. Staff recommends adding some landscape islands. City
Code 20-1118 typically requires establishments of this nature to have paved
parking areas and drive aisles with concrete curb and gutter or bituminous curbs to
direct runoff into a storm water drainage collection system. However, given the
nature of the use, staff believes it would be appropriate to allow sheet drainage
Kate Aanenson
RSS Golf Improvement Center Site Plan Review
May 28, 1998
Page 3
across the parking lot and only install curbing along the north side of the parking
lot where appropriate to direct stormwater runoff into the pond. All of the storm
water improvements will be private and not maintained by the City. Some
assurances should be incorporated in the interim use permit requiring annual
maintenance by the applicant. Should the maintenance not be performed, the City
shall have the authority to hire out the work and bill the applicant.
MISCELLANEOUS
The site is bordered by a wildlife refuge. The proposed fencing along the driving
range may adversely affect wildlife and waterfowl migration in the area. The U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service, DNR and other agencies should be consulted regarding
this use and it's impacts.
RECOMMENDED CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL
1. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately
restored with seed and disc-mulched or wood-fiber blanket or sod within two
weeks of completion of each activity in accordance with the City's Best
Management Practice Handbook.
2. Wetland buffer areas shall be surveyed and staked in accordance with the City's
wetland ordinance. The City will install wetland buffer edge signs before
accepting the utilities and will charge the applicant$20 per sign.
Wetland buffer areas shall be surveyed and staked in accordance with the
City's wetland ordinance. The City will provide wetland buffer edge signs and
charge the applicant $20 per sign. The applicant shall verify the location of
these signs with the City's Water Resources Coordinator and shall install
these signs before the Certificate of Occupancy is issued.
3. The applicant shall provide detailed storm drainage calculations for the ponds
and ditch during 10-year and 100-year, 24-hour storm events in accordance
with the City's Surface Water Management Plan for the City Engineer to
review and approve. The applicant shall also provide normal water level and
high water level elevations of the created ponds and/or ditches.
4. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate
regulatory agencies, ie. Watershed District, Minnesota Pollution Control
Kate Aanenson
RSS Golf Improvement Center Site Plan Review
May 28, 1998
Page 4
Agency, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, Army Corps of
Engineers and Minnesota Department of Transportation and comply with their
conditions of approval.
5. No berming, drainage improvements or landscaping will be allowed within
Trunk Highway 212 right-of-way.
6. The proposed stormwater ponds must have side slopes of 10:1 for the first ten
feet at the normal water level and no more than 3:1 thereafter or 4:1
throughout for safety purposes.
7. The use of chemical fertilizers shall be prohibited within the flood plain.
8. The plans shall be modified as follows:
a. The existing well shall be located and shown on the plans.
b. Relocate rock construction entrance south at a point where the existing
driveway will be altered/reconstructed.
c. Demonstrate where and how much filling and excavating will occur
within the flood plain, i.e. quantities of each activity.
d. Show normal and high water elevation of each pond.
e. Add silt fence downstream of proposed berms and practice green No. 1
in the northwest corner of the site.
f. Provide temporary and/or permanent erosion control measures around
sediment pond in northeast corner of the site.
g. Design light pole foundations to withstand seasonal flooding.
h. Incorporate MnDOTs comments regarding widening of the driveway
at Trunk Highway 212 and right-of-way identification per letter dated
May 21, 1998.
i. Locate alternative mound site and preserve from construction activities.
Kate Aanenson
RSS Golf Improvement Center Site Plan Review
May 28, 1998
Page 5
j. Add landscape islands in parking lot.
k. Add curbs along north side of parking lot to direct runoff to sediment
pond.
9. The applicant shall be responsible for maintenance of the storm drainage
improvements (ponds and ditches). Failure to properly maintain the storm
drainage improvement shall give the City the right to hire out the work and bill
the applicant and/or revoke the interim use permit.
c: Anita Benson, City Engineer
g:\eng'dave'Qc'rss golf.doc
. 10/
CITY OF t
CI1ANHASSE MEMORANDUM
690 City Center Drive,P0 Box1 TO: Kathryn Aanenson,Planning Director
Chanhassen,Minnesota 55317 FROM: Steve A.Kirchman,Building Official .4_.Ct
's,
Phone 612.937.1900
General Fax 612.937.5739 DATE: April 28, 1998
Engineering Fax 612.937.9152
Public Safety Fax 612.934.2524 SUBJECT: 98-2 CUP and 98-8 SPR(RSS Golf Improvement Center,RSS/Perma Green,
Web www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us Inc.)
I was asked to review the site plan proposal stamped "CITY OF CHANHASSEN,
APR 0 3 19 9 8, CHANHASSEN PLANNING DEPT." for the above referenced project.
Background:
The building designated as the office on the proposed plans is currently a dwelling.We have no
records of the date it was constructed. A new Individual Sewage Treatment System(ISTS)was
installed in 1995. It is a mound system designed for a three bedroom house.
Analysis:
ISTS sites. Chanhassen City Code, 18-40(2)g,requires two ISTS sites when property is
subdivided. The intent is to have an alternate site for use in the event of the failure of the ISIS on
the primary site. Although this property is not being subdivided,a change in use from residential
to commercial is being proposed.It is important to have an alternate site for a number of reasons.
1. Estimating sewage flow for a dwelling is straightforward;estimates for commercial
enterprises are more difficult.Failure of the ISTS due to overloading may render the existing
ISTS site unusable.
2. Should the existing ISTS be too small,and alternate site may provide room for expansion.
3. Should the primary site be damaged during initial construction the alternate site will be
available with minimal disruption.
4. Should the primary site be damaged later,a new I STS can be installed with less disruption of
the business.
Sewage flow. As noted earlier,sewage flow determination for commercial establishments is a
more difficult process than that for residences. The applicant should have a licensed site
evaluator and designer submit system sizing requirements for the anticipated flows based on the
requirements of Individual Sewage Treatment System Standards,Chapter 7080. The evaluation
and design will be necessary before establishing final site plans in order to assure the availability
of the area necessary for the I STS sites.
Building code requirements The occupancy classification of the existing dwelling will be
changed from an R-3 occupancy to a B or M occupancy. The building code requires a building be
brought up to code when a change in its use occurs. Likely areas where code deficiencies may
The City of Chanhassen.A growing community with clean lakes,quality schools,a charming downtown,thriving businesses,and beauf parks.A great place to live,work,and play.
Kathryn Aanenson,Planning Director
April 28, 1998
Page 2
occur include,exiting,accessibility,access to other levels,and separations. Accessibility
requirements may include site issues that should be addressed before site plans are finalized.
Building issues can be resolved during the building code plan review process.
The existing barn is proposed to be used as a maintenance building. Although the occupancy
classification will not change,the character of the occupancy is changing. The building was built
as an agricultural building and was not subject to any code requirements. As a maintenance
building it is subject to code requirements. The building is dilapidated and in danger of failing.
The building should be evaluated by a structural engineer who should determine repairs necessary
to bring the building as close to code compliance as is feasible.
Accessibility. The submitted plans do not indicate an accessible route from the parking lot to the
accessible building entrance. Accessible parking is also shown incorrectly- An eight foot wide
van access aisle and signage is required;Two accessible parking stalls are required;Accessible
signage is required at the head of parking stalls and access aisles.
Recommendations:
The following conditions should be added to the conditions of approval:
1. Submit the location of an alternate ISIS site from a licensed evaluator for review by
Inspections Division staff.
2. Submit an analysis of sewage flow for the proposed facility from a licensed evaluator for
review by Inspections Division staff.
3. Revise the plans to provide and accessible route and parking.
4. Arrange a meeting with the developers and designers with the Inspections Division plan
reviewer as early as possible to discuss commercial building permit requirements.
5. Arrange for an evaluation of the existing barn by a structural engineer. The evaluation should
include proposals for remediation if necessary.
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��PpF MINNFSol REG�`,�
`�►9 Minnesota Department of Natural Resources E
Metro Waters - 1200 Warner Road, St. Paul, MN 55106-6793 MAY 0 6 1998
9-4 Ai ��p�¢ Telephone: (612) 772-7910 Fax: (612) 772-7977 CITE OF
' 04;7 AQP Gt�ANH, SSE
May 4, 1998
Ms. Kathryn A. Aanenson
City of Chanhassen
690 City Center Drive, P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Re: Planning Case: 98-2 CUP and 98-8 Site Plan, RSS Golf Improvement Center, Assumption Creek
and Public Water Wetland 10-221W, City of Chanhassen, Carver County
Dear Ms. Aanenson:
We have reviewed the site plans dated March 13, 1998 (received April 14, 1998) for the above-
referenced proposal. Due to the location and nature of this proposal, I attempted to solicit input from
staff of the DNR's Fish and Wildlife Division, and have incorporated some of their comments. However,
this proposal did not go through a full Department review (i.e., as for an Environmental Assessment
Worksheet).
In general, the DNR has concerns about the potential impacts the proposed project could have on
adjacent sensitive resources. Wayne Barstad, DNR Ecological Services, attended an on-site meeting
with staff from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service staff and representatives of the applicant on 3/24/98,
and gave some input verbally at that time. Following are specific comments:
1- A portion of the subject property appears to include Assumption Creek, which is officially
designated by the DNR Commissioner as a trout stream. Although the site plan does not show
alterations immediately adjacent to the trout stream, the DNR is very concerned about any
activity which would adversely affect the quality(including temperature), quantity, direction, and
timing of flow in the subwatershed that feeds Assumption Creek.
2. Public water wetland 10-221W is also on the property. An ordinary high water (OHW) has not
been determined for 10-221W. As long as no grading or alteration is proposed within the
wetland boundary for the Minnesota Wetlands Conservation Act of 1991, an OHW
determination should not be necessary. However, if there is any question whether proposed
activities propose alterations within the wetland, an OHW must be determined. For example,
based on the on-site meeting that Wayne Barstad (DNR Ecological Services) attended on
3/24/98, we understand that about five acres of the wetland is proposed to be mowed for ball
retrieval. Depending on the type of vegetation affected, an Aquatic Plant Management Permit
may be required from the DNR Fisheries Section (Mike Halverson rr 772-7950) if the area of
cutting is within DNR Wetland 10-221W.
DNR Information:612-296-6157, I-800-766-6000 • TTY: 612-296-5484, I-800-657-3929
An Equal Opportunity Employer " Printed on Recycled Paper Containine a
Who Value,Dicer it\ ` \Inumum of III'r Post-Comumer Waste
Ms. Kathryn A. Aanenson
May 4, 1998
Page 2
3. Federal, state and local floodplain regulations need to be addressed in the floodplain of the
Minnesota River. The plan does show the 100-year flood elevation, and most of the proposed
grading is within the floodplain. No net change in the flood storage area within the floodplain
is shown, however,the alterations within the floodway need to be analyzed to ensure the changes
in the flood plain cross-section does not increase the flood stage upstream or downstream of the
project area.
4. It appears that stormwater treatment is proposed on this site. However, the level of treatment
is not indicated in the information we reviewed. As Mr. Barstad and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
representative noted at the 3/24/98 on-site meeting, we are very concerned that the runoff be
treated to minimize the adverse impacts on Assumption Creek.
5. It is our understanding that the proposed nets and ball collection system are designed to be high
enough off the ground so that deer can pass beneath them, if necessary. However, DNR staff
have concerns about the impacts of the nets on birds. If you have not already received comments
from DNR Non-Game Wildlife Manager Joan Galli, she should be contact for input at 297-2277.
6. This land is immediately adjacent to natural communities mapped by the Minnesota County
Biological Survey, and is within the boundary of the proposed Assumption Creek and Seminary
Fen Natural Area. This Natural Area includes some of the best quality calcareous fen and rare
plant habitat in the metropolitan area, and its protection is considered a high priority by the DNR.
The protection of the natural communities would best be accomplished by restoration of
disturbed areas such as the land in question to native plant communities. Developments,
including the proposed Golf Improvement Center, could have negative impacts on the natural
communities, including pollution and exotic plant invasion.
7. An area adjacent to TH 212 is shown for future expansion. Any future additions or
developments need to ensure that the plan allows adequate area for the individual sewage
treatment system and stormwater treatment ponding that would be required for the project
proposed.
8. The following comments are general and apply to all proposed developments:
a. Appropriate erosion control measures should be taken during the construction period.
The Minnesota Construction Site Erosion and Sediment Control Planning Handbook
(Board of Water& Soil Resources and Association of Metropolitan and Soil and Water
Conservation Districts) guidelines, or their equivalent, should be followed.
b. If construction involves dewatering in excess of 10,000 gallons per day or 1 million
gallons per year, a DNR appropriations permit is needed. You are advised that it
typically takes approximately 60 days to process the permit application. This will NOT
be a routine permit application when the site is near a calcareous fen.
Ms. Kathryn A. Aanenson
May 4, 1998
Page 3
c. Construction activities which disturb five acres of land, or more, are required to apply
for a stormwater permit from the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (Dan Sullivan @
296-7219).
d. Except as noted above, the comments in this letter address DNR - Division of Waters
jurisdictional matters and concerns. These comments should not be construed as DNR
support or lack thereof for a particular project.
Please contact me at 772-7914 or Hannah Dunevitz at 772-7570 should you have questions regarding
these comments.
Sincerely,
C,2
Ceil Strauss
Area Hydrologist
c: MN Valley Refuge - U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Terry Schreiner
Lower Minnesota River Watershed District, Larry Samstad
DNR Waters, Annette Drewes
DNR Ecological Services, Wayne Barstad/Hannah Dunevitz
DNR Wildlife, Joan Galli/Kathy DonCarlos
DNR Fisheries, Mike Halverson
,- HT OF Ty
PP1/�iC`F
United States Department of the Interior
FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE
4f44C14 3 � Twin Cities Field Office
4101 East 80th Street
Bloomington,Minnesota 55425-1665
HAY 13198.
Ms. Kathryn A. Aanenson RECEIVED
Planning Director
City of Chanhassen MAY 15 1998
P.O. Box 147
CITY OF CHAN
Chanhassen,MN 55317 SSEN
Dear Ms. Aanenson:
This responds to your April 13, 1998, memo requesting comments regarding Perma Green Inc.'s
request for a conditional use permit from the City of Chanhassen for the proposed RSS Golf
Improvement Center, to be located in the SE%of Section 35, T116N, R23W, Carver County,
Minnesota. The proposed facility would consist of a golf driving range, a pitch and putt practice
course,putting greens, and support buildings and facilities.
According to maps, site plan drawings, and other documentation attached to your memo, the
majority of the 96-acre site is comprised of wetlands associated with the Minnesota River
floodplain. The entire parcel, with the exception of the extreme northeast corner, is within the
100-year floodplain. The proposed buildings and parking areas are located in the upland area in
the northeast corner of the parcel, for the most part above the 100-year flood limits. A
maintenance building, the two driving ranges, and practically all of the pitching and putting areas
are located within the 100-year flood limits. The project site is bounded on the east by property
owned by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) and managed as part of the Minnesota
Valley National Wildlife Refuge, and to the south by natural areas owned and managed by the
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (MnDNR).
The Service considers the project area vicinity to contain extremely high-value natural resources,
including lands owned and managed by two public natural resource agencies, high-quality
wetlands and associated fish and wildlife habitat, the active floodplain of the Minnesota River(a
high-priority conservation area), and high aesthetic qualities. According to the MnDNR,
Assumption Creek, a designated trout stream, flows through the western limits of the project site.
Accordingly, the Service has concerns about siting the proposed facility in such an area with
regards to potentially detrimental impacts to area wetlands.
The Service notes that golf courses and,presumably, golf practice facilities that feature putting
greens and managed fairways/approach areas, are traditionally subject to relatively high rates of
fertilizer,herbicide, and pesticide application. Due to the proximity of this site to the natural
resource features listed above, we believe extraordinary measures would be called for to prevent
or minimize the introduction of fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides into the adjacent wetlands.
Mr. Ben Wopat
Page 2
The site drawings indicate two sediment ponds that would be constructed. Although the Service
supports the incorporation of those ponds into the project design, such ponds are generally
designed to only eliminate heavier sediments from surface runoff. Furthermore, due to the high
water table expected to occur in the areas closest to the fringing wetlands, it is possible that
excess fertilizer and other soluble contaminants will enter the soil water directly rather than be
transported (and subsequently captured) in the proposed runoff control ponds.
The southern one-third to one-half of the driving ranges are located in emergent wetlands.
Although no grading or fill is proposed for those areas, there will presumably be regular mowing
to facilitate recovery of golf balls, which will decrease the wildlife habitat value of that portion
of the wetland.
The Service recommends that the bottom edge of the proposed net fence be no closer than 4.5
feet to the ground to allow passage of deer and other terrestrial wildlife. The Service also has
some concern about the possible impacts of the net fence to flying birds. We recommend that
measures be taken to maximize visibility of the net, and its support poles and wires, to birds.
Such measure would include marking isolated support wires, and other portions of the net
structure, as needed,with bird flight diverters. We also recommend that the net extend no higher
than 40 feet above the ground to minimize aesthetic impacts to the Minnesota Valley National
Wildlife Refuge tract adjacent to the east side of the proposed facility.
Thank you for the opportunity to review and provide our comments on this proposed project. If
you have any questions regarding these comments,please contact the Mr. Loyd Mitchell of my
staff at 612-725-3548, ext. 202, or the address above.
Sincerely,
Lynn M. Lewis
Field Office Supervisor
cc: Terry Schreiner, Minnesota Valley National Wildlife Refuge, Bloomington, MN
Wayne Barstad, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, St. Paul,MN
Steve Colvin, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, St. Paul, MN
Larry Zdon, Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, St. Paul, MN
0"e7
Minnesota Department of Transportation
'or , Metropolitan Division
Waters Edge
1500 West County Road B2
Roseville, MN 55113
May 21, 1998
REC.
Kathryn Aanenson SAY
City of Chanhassen
690 City Center Drive, P.O. Box 147 CITU '
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Dear Kathryn Aanenson:
SUBJECT: RSS Golf Improvement Center
Site Plan Review S98-035
South of Trunk Highway(TH) 212 at TH 101 (Great Plains Boulevard)
Chanhassen, Carver County
C.S. 1013
The Minnesota Department of Transportation (Mn/DOT)has reviewed the RSS Golf
Improvement Center site plan. We find the plan acceptable for further development with
consideration of the following comments:
• Storm water drainage from the proposed site does not appear to flow to TH 212 right of
way. A Mn/DOT permit will be required if this condition changes or the development
otherwise alters the pattern of runoff affecting TH 212. The Minnesota Department of
Natural Resources, The Army Corps of Engineers, and The Lower Minnesota Watershed
District should also review this plan. Questions about Mn/DOT's storm water drainage
concerns may be directed to Brian Kelly of our Water Resources Section at 797-3151.
• An approved permit is required for the access to TH 212. We will allow only one access
to TH 212. No future access points will be allowed. We recommend that the proposed
driveway be widened to allow easier operation of the existing signal. For information
regarding widening of the driveway, contact Lars Impola of our Traffic Management
Section at 797-3126. For information regarding the permit process, contact Bill Warden
of our Permits Section at 582-1443.
• The final plat must identify the edge of MN/DOT right of way. Any questions may be
directed to Jeff Hoffstrom of our Surveys Section at 797-3108.
• The site plan shows a sign near the access opening which is marked"Pylon Sign". This
sign appears to be on Mn/DOT right of way. The sign must be relocated to a point where
it does not encroach on MN/DOT right of way.
An equal opportunity employer
Kathryn Aanenson
May 21, 1998
page two
• Any use of or work within Mn/DOT right of way will require an approved Mn/DOT
permit. The permit required depends upon the nature of the proposed work. Bill Warden
of our Permits Section may be contacted, as noted above, for further information
regarding the permit process.
Please contact me at 582-1383 with any questions regarding this review.
Sincerely,
ohl
Lisa
Christianson
Transportation Planner/Local Government Liaison
c: Roger Gustafson, Carver County Engineer
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1011
CITY OF June 22, 1998
CHANHASSEN
690 City Center Drive,PO Box 14- Dear Hesse Farm Resident:
Chanhassen,Minnesota 5531
Phone 612.9371900 The Planning Commission will be holding a public hearing on July 1, 1998,at 7:00
General Fax 612.9375739 p.m. in the City Hall Council Chambers, 690 City Center Drive. The request is as
Engineering Fax 612.937.9152 follows:
Public Safety Fax 612.934.2524
11'zh u'umci.chanbassen.mn.us RSS/Perma Green, Inc., RSS Golf Improvement Center--located south of the
intersection of Great Plains Blvd./TH 101 and T.H. 212,on property zoned A2,
Agricultural Estate District:
a) Conditional Use Permit for Alteration of a Flood Plain
b) Interim Use Permit for a Golf& Driving Range
c) Site Plan Review for a Golf& Driving Range
d) Variances to section 20-265 (2)hours of operation
e) Code Amendment to Allow Restaurant and Pro Shop
f) Wetland Alteration Permit for impact of.43 acres
The applicant is requesting a year round golf center with lights (50.ft in height)
including a retail pro shop/restaurant in the Minnesota Valley Wildlife Refuge.
If you have questions about this application,please feel free to contact me at
937-1900, ext. 118.
Sincerely,
kCIA\fiAkjAft
Kathryn R. Aanenson
Planning Director
KA:v
The City of Chanhassen.A growing community with clean lake.,quality schools,a charming downtown,thriving businesses,and beauif tl parks.A great place to live,work,and play
KIRK A MACKENZIE PAUL&A SYMANITZ JOHN E TRUSHEIM
10420 BLUFF CIRCLE 1505 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 10341 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
JOSEPH KANDIKO ALBERT DORWEILER THOMAS NIEBELING
10421 BLUFF CIRCLE 1565 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 10360 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
BEVERLY ZIMMER THOMAS/SANDRA CARAVELLI RICHARD BUE
10440 BLUFF CIRCLE 6423 MERE DRIVE 10361 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318 EDEN PRAIRE, MN 55346 CHASKA., MN 55318
LEE& EMILY ANDERSON HAROLD& MARY HESSE MARK& MARY BRIOL
10441 BLUFF CIRCLE 1425 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 10377 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
HOWARD& MARY LAPIDES MARY P HESSE KEVIN F & LAURA R MARINAN
10460 BLUFF CIRCLE 1425 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 10380 HEIDI LANE
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
MARY ANN ELMGREN HESSE FARM HOMEOWNER'S JEFF PODERGOIS
1221 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE JANET WINTER 1031 SADLEBROOD TRAIL
107
CHASKA, MN 55318 1075 HESSE FARM ROAD CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
CHASKA, MN 55318
NICHOLAS WARITZ CURTIS BARDAL RICHARD DEE
1271 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 10301 HEIDI LANE 1201 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
ED TIPTON CHARLES, MAC BLANE JEFFREY MAY
1291 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 10320 HEIDI LANE 1225 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
RICHARD MALONEY MUKUL&SHASHI SAKLANI EDWARD MUELLER
1315 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 10321 HEIDI LANE 1251 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
HAROLD HESSE HAROLD&MARY HESSE KEITH&STACY CARLSON
1425 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 1425 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE 1301 HESSE FARM CIRCLE
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
JOHN FORCE ROGER BROWN GINNY&CRAIG VLAANDIREN
1001 HESSE FARM ROAD 1200 HESSE FARM ROAD 1450 WEST FARM ROAD
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
DANIEL SMITH EUGENE JUNKER KENNETH &JUDY EIDE
1020 HESSE FARM ROAD 1250 HESSE FARM ROAD 1500 W. FARM ROAD
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
WM E HARDER ROBERT STEFFES LARRY& KAREN KOECHEL
1025 HESSE FARM ROAD 1350 HESSE FARM ROAD 19427 SILVER OAK DRIVE
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 FORT MYERS, FL 33912-5511
MIKE LADD MICHAEL&KATHY ARNOLD CHAD & BARBARA SEIZERT
1070 HESSE FARM ROAD 1400 HESSE FARM ROAD 11332 CREEKRIDGE DRIVE
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 EDEN PRAIRIE, MN 55347
KEVIN &JANET WINTER NICK EVANOFF MAXWELL TISCH
1075 HESSE FARM ROAD 1401 HESSE FARM ROAD 1600 WEST FARM ROAD
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
FRAME& DEBORAH JOHNSEN EMERALD PROPERTIES MARK CLINE
1100 HESSE FARM ROAD P.O. BOX 260 1650 WEST FARM ROAD
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
TODD J ROGERS HESSE FARM 2 HOMEOWNERS WILLIAM MEYER
DAWN M DRILLING CAROL BARDAL 3660 INDEPENDENCE AVE SO, APT 73
1101 HESSE FARM ROAD 10301 HEIDI LANE ST LOUIS PARK, MN 55426
CHASKA, MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
HOWARD NOZISKA NICHOLAS&MARY WARITZ
1120 HESSE FARM ROAD 1271 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
BRUCE RECH ROGER O'SHAUGHNESSY
1180 HESSE FARM ROAD 1000 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA,MN 55318 CHASKA, MN 55318
PETER TAUNTON JAMES &CARLA STRUBLE
316-19TH AVE S.E. 1405 WEST FARM ROAD
WILLMAR, MN 56201 CHASKA, MN 55318
DAVIDSON,CHARLE HESSE,HAROLD F COOK,SKIP S
240 FLYING CLOUD DR 1425 BLUFF CREEK DR 15506 VILLAGE WOODS DR
CHASKA, MN CHASKA, MN EDEN PRAIRIE, MN
55318 55318 55347
GILBERTSON,DIAN MALZAHN,JOHN & EMERALD PROPERT
1190 BLUFF CREEK DR 10551 GREAT PLAINS BLVD 6609 DAKOTA TRL
CHASKA, MN CHASKA, MN EDINA, MN
55318 55318 55439
COOK,SKIP S KARELS,ANNE E STATE OF MINNES
15506 VILLAGE WOODS DR 1161 BLUFF CREEK DR 500 LAFAYETTE RD
EDEN PRAIRIE, MN CHASKA, MN ST PAUL, MN
55347 55318 55155
ZAMJAHN,LOUISE UBA PARTNERSHIP STATE OF MINNES
7506 77TH ST 7301 OHMS LN #345 500 LAFAYETTE RD
CHASKA, MN EDINA, MN ST PAUL, MN
55318 55439 55155
U S FISH & WILD STATE OF MINNES EMERALD PROPERT
1 FEDERAL DR 600 4TH ST E 6609 DAKOTA TRL
ST PAUL, MN CHASKA, MN EDINA, MN
55111 55318 55439
EMERALD PROPERT STATE OF MINNES
6609 DAKOTA TRL 500 LAFAYETTE RD
EDINA, MN ST PAUL, MN
55439 55155
Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
contractor will be responsible for obtaining the appropriate sewer, water, and plumbing
permits from the City's building Department. Cross access easements for the utilities and
driveways shall be dedicated over the lot.
9. The site plan shall be modified to incorporate sidewalks out to Coulter Boulevard at a
location to be determined by the applicant and staff.
10. Revise the parking on the Site Plan to comply with the building code.
11. Meet with the Inspections Division plan reviewer as soon as possible after approval to begin the
building code plan review process.
12. Refer to the Utility plan. A post indicator valve must be added to the 8 inch water main
going into the building. NFPA 13 1991 Section 4-5.1.1.7.
13. The post indicator must have tamper protection which is connected to the sprinkler system
monitoring. Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Division Policy#40-1995.
14. The developer shall incorporate the following architectural details: 1) each outside
corner of the building shall use rock face 16 x 16 inch CMU-1.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
PUBLIC HEARING:
RSS/PERMA GREEN, INC. REQUEST FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR
ALTERATION OF A FLOOD PLAIN,AN INTERIM USE PERMIT SITE PLAN
REVIEW TO ALLOW A GOLF IMPROVEMENT CENTER/DRIVING
RANGE/OFFICE/CLUB HOUSE AND VARIANCES TO THE SIZE OF BUILDING AND
HOURS OF OPERATION AND A CODE AMENDMENT TO ALLOW AN OFFICE/
CLUBHOUSE TO BE LOCATED SOUTH OF THE INTERSECTION OF GREAT
PLAINS BOULEVARD AND TH 212 ON PROPERTY ZONED A2,AGRICULTURAL
ESTATE DISTRICT, RSS GOLF IMPROVEMENT CENTER.
Public Present:
Name Address
Tom Braman 8040 Stevens, Bloomington, MN
Chris Bixler 3179 Devon Lane, Mound, MN
Jeff Helstrom 8276 Scandia Road, Waconia, MN
David Albright 7814 131st Street West, Apple Valley, MN
Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item.
28
Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Joyce: Are there any questions for staff?
Blackowiak: Is this going to have a course on it?
Aanenson: No. It did when it originally came in.
Blackowiak: I was questioning about the Corps permit.
Aanenson: Originally it had over 3 acres. We've got that reduced down and that was the...
driving range.
Conrad: It's currently being farmed?
Aanenson: Correct.
Conrad: And the property to the northeast is what? Is that being farmed too? Right next to 169
or whatever that.
Aanenson: To 101? Right immediately to the east where the DNR wetland is, is part of the
wildlife...
Conrad: To the east is what, did you say?
Aanenson: Oh, I'm sorry to the east. That's also...the existing home on the other side...
Conrad: And our vision of this land Kate, could be farmed? Our vision it could be farmed?
Aanenson: Well, it can remain an agricultural use. Our comprehensive plan originally left it
only as open space. But if someone were to come in and try to do something...it could just be
farmed in A2 which is a use of the property. It also, the A2 district as I indicated does allow a
couple of other things. Either conditional or interim use and the golf and driving range...
Conrad: So our vision is open space but to be open means somebody, we'd have to buy it then?
Aanenson: Correct.
Conrad: Our vision could be agricultural and a golf range could be included in that?
Aanenson: Right.
Conrad: And our vision could be large lot, which is 1 house per 2 Y2 acres.
Aanenson: Correct.
Conrad: So this.
29
Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Aanenson: Actually outside the MUSA that would be 1 per 10.
Conrad: 1 per 10. So this vision on this site,huh. There could be one house.
Aanenson: Under the Bluff Creek overlay district that's coming in, what impact would that have
on this site?
Aanenson: The reason why this wasn't included in the Bluff Creek is because this is upland and
the Assumption Creek and that wetland are a high value wetland. Unique as far as overall
aquatic diversity and so what happens on this property, the drainage would affect the water
quality.
Joyce: So this is not on the overlay?
Aanenson: It is,but it's all in the primary, a lot of it is in the primary zone. But again if you do a
density transfer out,you'd have to find it somewhere else to replace it.
Joyce: I guess I'm tagging along with your question Ladd. Is this in the primary zone of the
overlay? This project right here?
Aanenson: Yes. But if it's entirely within the primary zone,then again it went back to either we
acquire it or we have to give a variance. That was the attorney's opinion because it'd be...a
taking.
Blackowiak: Unless it remains agricultural.
Aanenson: Correct.
Blackowiak: I mean that is an option too. Acquire for, or leave it agricultural. I mean couldn't
we have three options? Acquire, interim use, agricultural.
Aanenson: Well, the interim use is like a conditional use. You can only attach conditions to
mitigate the impact. So you'd have to allow...and attach whatever conditions or allow the...if
you feel like you need to do that to mitigate the impact. There was a lot happening when we first
saw this. We confirmed that there was a lot of activity...what we've seen in the past in
Chanhassen. I'm not saying those sort of activities don't happen throughout the metro area but
we were concerned about that and I think we...applicant to try to resolve some of those.
Conrad: So every year Kate, this land will be flooded more than likely?
Aanenson: You know that, it has flooded twice.
Conrad: So not every year?
30
Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Aanenson: It would be seasonally and that's what we're saying, if it's a regular occurrence then
we're saying it doesn't make any sense. I guess part of that is up to the applicant for them to
decide what's the replacement but we are concerned if it's continually washing into
environmentally sensitive areas, then I think we need to...adding extra sand and some of the
other sediments that would be...fixtures as Dave indicated in his, or poles or some of the other
equipment that's washing out, that would be a concern too.
Conrad: And what is the permit that they would have to get from the DNR? Is that just a permit?
Aanenson: Well what they need to do is define the flood plain line. Establish that. We have a
different elevation. It's actually a Zone A which means undefined. They've come back with the
numbers that they believe that...and we believe it's probably somewhere pretty close but legally
right now the FEMA map says it's a Zone A which means it has not been delineated. Officially
registered with...elevation but we believe it's probably pretty close. We're...to go through that
process.
Conrad: How do I get a handle on whether this is good for the Bluff Creek corridor and the
downstream or river or not? How do I, it's probably a better use than farming.
Aanenson: We struggled with that exact issue. Our first wish was to buy it. Yeah, that would be
nice. To leave it the way it is.
Conrad: But how do I, how do I review it Kate so that it doesn't get worse than it currently is. Is
there a standard? Is there a, I think as we have drainage issues we're improving everything. In
every area we have in Chanhassen, I have a real good feeling, even though we're developing...
improve things when we're developing. I think we have a handle on how we do that. I don't
have a handle on this application right now to know that the water quality, especially into
Assumption Creek, is going to be maintained. So I guess if you don't have a way to give me to
review that...
Aanenson: We don't. All we can say is that we will monitor the creek annually... drainage that
would wash some of the, that's where it's going to be draining...
Conrad: And who's telling me this is a net benefit? Is somebody on staff telling me this is a net
benefit to the environment?
Aanenson: No.
Conrad: Okay. But you haven't, on the flip side you haven't said it's a detriment to it either.
Wildlife...wildlife from water quality. Different issues here right now.
Aanenson: We're saying we need to monitor it and that's one of the conditions that we need to
monitor. If they're not meeting it, then we need to bring it back before you and add additional
conditions. That's our reason for revoking an interim use permit. If they're degradating water
quality.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Brooks: Ladd, can I ask you a question? Do you think this, are you saying that you think this is
better than agricultural for water quality?
Conrad: yeah, it could be.
Brooks: What about natural resources?
Conrad: Could be a problem, yeah. Well for sure it's a problem. For wildlife. It could be a
problem.
Brooks: More of a problem than agricultural scenarios?
Conrad: Say it a different way?
Brooks: Well...think the golf course is going to have a worse affect on wildlife than keeping it
agricultural.
Conrad: Yes.
Brooks: Okay,because when you said you thought it was better than keeping it agricultural.
You just meant water quality?
Conrad: Yeah.
Brooks: Okay.
Conrad: I'm talking about chemicals and fertilizer and what have you... If you think this site
can have agricultural on it and they can farm it and they can put the chemicals on it that they
want, and the challenge for this group would be to say, can we improve it over what has been the
use.
Brooks: Or are you just putting different chemicals on?
Conrad: You know it will resolve some issues in my mind if we, if I can get a handle on that but
I don't think anybody's going to be able to reassure me...
Burton: How do you define...herbicides or organic fertilizer and it looks to me like they would
be able to use...herbicide and pesticides...
Aanenson: Yeah, and so what they're saying is once they get their turf established, they're going
to...
Burton: Because there's chemical fertilizers...
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Aanenson: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm talking about the storage.
Burton: I'm talking about the application. Right now your recommendation 15 is that chemical
fertilizers are prohibited in the flood plain.
Aanenson: Oh, I'm sorry. That should say the storage of.
Burton: But that's in number 8. Storage is 8. It says the storage and maintenance equipment
and chemicals shall be out of the flood plain. And 15 it just says the chemical can't be used in
the flood plain...
Aanenson: ...pulling it all together so I'm not sure.
Burton: Yeah, and I was trying to figure out...
Aanenson: Well I think chemicals and fertilization is an issue...
Joyce: ...Kate, is the applicant also the owner of the property?
Aanenson: No. They may be buying it but they're not.
Joyce: They have an option for it or?
Aanenson: You can ask them that, but somebody else owns it.
Joyce: Okay. Where is, what is, I mean where is golf and driving ranges a permitted use?
Aanenson: It's a conditional use, golf course in A2. Driving range an interim use in A2.
Joyce: So it's just an interim use, it's always an interim use?
Aanenson: Yeah. Or it could be a conditional use and golf course. Could be a conditional use
and a driving range is an interim use.
Joyce: ...in town it's got to be an interim use, correct?
Aanenson: That's how we envision it. It would be a short term, until we brought urban services
out similar to like Swings. That was the original thought.
Joyce: On the code amendment...
Aanenson: Well again, what they wanted to do is a pro shop. You know a place where you can
sell beer.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Joyce: I understand that part of it but like now, what are we doing up at Bluff Creek? What do
they have? Do they...?
Aanenson: Yes.
Joyce: So we're allowing Bluff Creek to.
Aanenson: But that's again a full fledged golf course... That was a long time ago. I'm sure
before a lot of the standards...
Joyce: I guess I'm trying to, there's a code amendment... So another golf course pops up
somewhere...
Aanenson: I golf course doesn't have the interim use standards.
Joyce: Okay, so this code amendment's for the interim use then?
Aanenson: Correct.
Joyce: Thank you. Now I'm on tract.
Aanenson: Okay. Now we're on the same... Yes, this is for the interim use...for golf driving
range.
Joyce: Okay. Why don't we have the applicant present to us at this time. Please step forward
and state your name.
Chris Bixler: I'm Chris Bixler. I'm one of the owners of the RSS Golf Improvement Center.
Jeff Helstrom: And I'm Jeff Helstrom. Chris and I are going to be partners. We have purchased
the land on a contract from this gentleman over here. We do have a vision for the property and
our vision is definitely environmental. I mean we've thought about that. We've thought about
what this property looks like now and what the use is now and what we can do to this property
with the uses that we're going to outline to you. Are any of you golfers? Okay. So I mean
you've played golf courses and I think if you've played some of the nicer golf courses you've
seen that they can really do some good things with the land that does have some wetlands and
they can preserve those areas and we feel with the plans we've put together does just that and
we've also outlined a fertilizer and a weed control program that's strictly organic fertilizers. It
would be, you know somehow it would be applied in the flood plain. However, at times of year
that they'd be applied typically would be after any flooding had occurred because there's
normally you put that first application down at the end of April or beginning of May. So it's just
something to consider that we can time our application to prevent runoff. You know we don't
want to spray weeds when it's going to rain. The time of application,you wait until a time when
it's going to be dry for a couple days and you spray the weeds selectively. And that's,you know
those are just things that we can do as a smaller operation that a farmer may not do. They're just
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
going to go out and they're going to spray whatever they're going to spray normally whenever
they're going to spray it. So there is the possibility that you could get some runoff there but we
feel that we can prevent that. You know Chris and I are here because we both love golf. I'm not
in the golf industry now and neither is Chris. I own my own landscape company. We have a
office warehouse in Corcoran and so I've been playing golf, and Chris and I have known each
other for quite a while and we golf together and we love golf and always talked about getting into
the golf industry. And our vision for what we wanted to do wasn't to open just a driving range
where you just go and hit balls. We really wanted to open a golf learning center where people
can hit balls. Play some shorter holes. Work on their sand game. Their chipping game. All the
different things you wouldn't necessarily get at every driving range. In fact it's really hard to
find where you can do all of those things at one place. So you know our vision together was, you
know we want to do something different. We want to do something really nice and we want to
be able to put our money into the facility and to do that,you know we needed to find a property
that didn't cost a million bucks. And one thing that came to mind was well, let's get something
that's going to flood. Because you know...flooding but in the spring when we're not really going
to be hitting balls so if it floods, you know we can pull everything up and sit back and wait and
the actual structure, the home and that is not in the flood plain so we feel that that wouldn't be as
much of a problem. So we talked about that and we looked at this land and we really thought
that we put together a plan that you know utilizes the space. It lets us buy a piece of property that
financially we can afford, and let's us put the money back into the learning thing and creates an
area that you know people can bring their families and have some fun and not just go you know
bang a bucket of balls. We talked a little bit about the winter part of it. This is a really integral
part of the plan that we also want an area that people can hit full shots and in the winter. And the
only way to do that is to have you know a range that's long enough, say 185 yards probably to hit
a reasonably full... and that really has to be outside. You can't hit a...185 yards long feasible so
we thought about it and thought it and we started testing some things and we've got this, a net
system that literally both covers the ground and we'll talk about that a little bit more later. But it
collects the balls and then we retrieve them and then people hit from a small dugout area that's
heated. The face of the dugout area is open. So you're hitting out to this area that's covered with
our sloped net collecting balls and you can literally hit full shots year round and not...from any
other range in the Twin Cities, or really any other range in the country that we know about, and
that's the reason that we said we need the net and that we need the lights because I don't know if
you've gone to any golf...but a good percentage of their business is done in the evening. And if
we can't be open in the evening in the winter, it's tough to get just people who want to come
there in the day. So what we're really looking at is just, we put together a lighting plan that we
just completed a couple of days ago that would light just the area and we can talk about that a
little bit more later. But you know we'll light that area. ...the balls and people can come out
there year round and have a great time and you know hit balls and come out in the winter and the
summer and do it too. And we just feel it's really a, it's a great plan and we want to talk to you
and put together a plan that you can monitor and we can you know keep this property, or make
this property better really than the use that it has now.
Chris Bixler: Also I guess a couple other things. I've lived in the area my entire life. This area,
in my mind, in my knowledge of the golf business. I've been...golfer for probably 20 plus years.
Essentially over 25 years, if you can believe it. This area needs something like that. A good
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
quality practice facility...golfers. We are a family oriented center. We're focusing on service for
every customer. Not just the good golfers. We want kids, beginners to come to our place. Enjoy
themselves and... Owning and operating a range has been a dream of mine for about the last 10
years. I've been trying to figure out a way how to get a full shot in the winter time and how to
collect that ball in the snow,rain and sleet. The elements. Our net system takes those elements
out of the picture. As far as snow,the snow will fall right through it. One other thing about the
net. The nets are above the ground. So if you're worried about small animals running into the
net, I think we've handled that issue. As far as raising them and having the gates on the range so
that if some animal does get stuck...physically go take it out and release it. We've put in gates
and stuff like that to manage that. If there is any birds that fly into it, we will be able to get them
out... Also, like Jeff said, there is no other place in the country like this. As far as we know
there's no place in the world. It's going to make it very unique...customer. Something that's
needed. If you go to a dome nowadays in the winter time, the distance between, from the tee box
to the end of the dome is 65 yards. When you go there and hit a long driver, you have no idea if
you hook the ball or slice the ball. With this you'll be able to teach a person and give them good
lessons, which you really don't get in domes because you don't see your ball flight. And that's
one of the most important things to us. Now as far as the netting, the netting would be up from
the month, do you remember? November to April or May?
Jeff Helstrom: We've got a plan of the netting system so we can go over it with you.
Joyce: So we're discussing winter netting and summer netting.
Jeff Helstrom: There's only one net which stays up in the summer and that's just to guard the
DNR property next door. The other netting is only up basically from November until maybe the
first of April. And then it all comes down.
Joyce: And that's the device with the.
Jeff Helstrom: Yep, yep. But basically what happens here, I don't know if you can see this but
here's our tee box here. Here's where we hit out into the range from that and here's a series of
nets that are about 40 feet deep and then cover the width of the range. And then there will just be
some ball retrieval like wire mesh retrieval systems where the ball literally will hit the net and
then they roll back into that ball retrieval system at the base of each one of these nets. And then
you can walk behind them because the back of the net is about, I think about 8 feet off the
ground. We can literally have somebody go back behind them when people are hitting them and
take the balls out of the retrieval area. Now once again I just wanted to emphasize that this
whole netting system is only in the winter. The only net that exists in the summer is the one that
borders the DNR property here and then everything comes down. ...and that would just be a
shorter net just to guard people... So as you can see we've turned the driving range out this way
so we want people hitting out to this area and but occasionally somebody's out collecting the
balls...
Joyce: Are there any questions on the netting?
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Blackowiak: Excuse me. I just have a question on this map. I'm sorry. It says north, is that
correct?
Aanenson: He was going the wrong way when he said driving. He was pointing the wrong way.
Blackowiak: Okay. So is north at the top of this map or is north really on the right? Okay. So
the north up here shows me that north is at the top.
Joyce: North is actually pointing west, correct? Is that how I'm understanding?
Blackowiak: That's what I'm, it's actually what says north is really west. Okay. I was turned
around. I just want to make sure I'm looking the right way here.
Jeff Helstrom: Tom Braman would like to say something. He did our wetland delineation. He'd
like to say something about the nets.
Tom Braman: My name's Tom Braman. I'm a biologist with Acorn Environmental Consultants.
I worked on the wetland delineation portion and some of the other issues regarding natural
resources and environmental impacts. I just wanted to say a couple things that we looked at in
regards to comments from the Fish and Wildlife Service about the nets. They wanted a 40 foot
net and we went back and looked at the projectory of the ball and we looked at the size of the...
to put a 40 foot over the entire area... The Wildlife Service is telling us, it appeared to be related
to... so we did step that down. Chris just mentioned the wildlife gates. Basically what those are,
and they're just small gates in the lower part of this netting here, they're just open all the time.
So an animal over time...find their way out, we can help them with that. There is gates all along
the side of the...
Sidney: I had a question, is that okay?
Joyce: Sure, go ahead.
Sidney: Okay. I guess I was concerned,well maybe to back up to fertilizing and pesticides,
herbicide issue compared to farming practices which I think could be improved in your situation.
I think...What really concerns me are the nets however. Especially given the environmentally
sensitive area, potentially a lot of wildlife there. That's one thing that I didn't see enough
information being presented that showed me that you had an understanding of the impact of the
nets. Now you've obviously searched the web for information about the fertilizer impacts and
USGA had some information available. But I have to believe there is information about how to
design nets that might be more friendly to, especially deer...pheasants. Woodchucks. I don't
know if I care for woodchucks too much but I think if you would have a deer caught in those
nets, it would be a really big catastrophe so I'd like you to consider you know doing some more
research on that.
Jeff Helstrom: What we've done is,we did meet with the DNR and Fish and Wildlife and
they're going to work with us on putting this together and they want us to work with them. And I
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
think that's...in the staff report also that they want to be involved in this project. They have
certain net sizes...feel important to have some tensions on the net and net height along that
border.
Sidney: And I have to believe there is more technology out there...where you might raise the
lower power of the net at night for example when you don't have customers there and lower it,
something that would be more friendly to some of the larger animals.
Jeff Helstrom: Yeah, there's no reason at all that we can't do that.
Chris Bixler: I think what we can do, as far as raising the side nets which are facing...stay up all
the time...
Sidney: I guess I'd really encourage you to do that and the other thought I have is that, well if
this property's been farmed probably animals know to stay away but I guess I don't really know.
We don't have enough information about what.
Jeff Helstrom: Well we definitely will work with Fish and Wildlife. I mean they really, as far as
we know...it's somewhat unique. And that's why they want to work with us and we plan on
doing it. Especially if we're going to reviewed every year...
Sidney: And I did look on the web for netting things and golf netting and stuff and didn't find
too much in terms of, well anything really on environmental impacts of nets. But I did see a lot
of net vendors. You know fishing nets and golf nets and...they have custom design so they
might be able to...
Chris Bixler: They have... The nets that we're looking at are friendly for animals, if there is any
type of friendlier. Just in the way they are with...
Jeff Helstrom: Yeah, taut. This is the higher net.
Sidney: The birds would...
Jeff Helstrom: They won't get hung up in there and that's the issue. If they can bounce off the
net. It's not a hard surface where it's going to injure them...and we're really talking about
mainly you know smaller birds and things. The nets aren't going to be up in the summer or
really during the migration of the geese and ducks and everything... We'll have that one net that
will always stay there along there but DNR also suggested that we flag them and put some
reflective flagging on that net also to make it more visible. The DNR actually told us that they
would,once they heard or saw our plan they said they would prefer a net up there all the time.
Sidney: Well so that they know that it's there.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Jeff Helstrom: Well, so they know it's there plus golf balls aren't being hit onto their property...
people running over there to retrieve them all the time. So when they told us that, we thought
well we'll keep it up.
Aanenson: Can we get confirmation of that information?
Jeff Helstrom: What's that?
Aanenson: Can we get that in writing?
Jeff Helstrom: Oh sure.
Aanenson: That's not what we've heard.
Jeff Helstrom: All four of us were there when we met with them and they really were in favor
for it.
Aanenson: Okay. Unfortunately we weren't.
Sidney: That's information that City Council definitely...
Joyce: We're kind of chopping this up but is there any other information on nets, since we're on
that subject right now? Okay. We'll move along then.
Chris Bixler: The other thing I'd like to say is,we want to keep this as environmentally friendly
as possible. One of our, with Jeff being in the landscaping business and myself in the design of
this, we want to keep nature the way it is. We're not asking for a lot of changes outside of our
area at all. To keep the area and surrounding wetland the same way, that's our intention. We
don't want to impact all areas...try to move our facility back to handle those issues. As far as
keeping the property...all the trees that are there, except for some because we had to back up our
range, we do have to take down a couple trees but we'll leave most of them up and just keep it
natural. If you're a golfer you know that the prettier the course, the more you like it and it's
going to be a very attractive course as far as the chip and putt and the range. So we just wanted
you to know that. As part of the plans is to keep it environmentally...
Jeff Helstrom: And myself being in the lawn business, I mow and maintain condominiums and
townhomes and apartments and work extremely meticulous as far as the way we manage our
property and this would be the same. I mean I can't stand to come in, if the curbs aren't etched
off or the trees aren't trimmed around on a weekly basis or weeds. I mean we just want that to
look really nice but keeping in mind that you can spot...You don't have to just blanket. If you
put a good organic fertilizer down 2 or 3 times a year and strengthen the turf,you don't have a lot
of weeks. And we can go through and spray an area this size for weeds with very little herbicide.
And we did get some information in regards to the herbicides that were being applied previously
and they're applying hatrazine, and they're applying that at a rate of 1 pound per acre. Well what
hatrazine is, it's a carryover herbicide so that hatrazine is you know basically in the soil for a
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Planning Commission Meeting - June 3, 1998
couple of years. Whereas the broad leaf weed control you spray on the plant. The plant absorbs
it...very short carry over time. Less than a week and like I mentioned before, if you go out and
spray when it's not going to rain, which is what you want to do, because we don't want to have to
respray. You're not going to get the runoff of... What we have proposed for the club house.
What's existing now is a 800 square foot house. All of the plans...I guess the zoning ordinance
for that area...and what we had planned for that is basically renovating that house and putting
some TV's up and a fireplace and a little snack bar and maybe to sell some golf clubs and gloves
and balls and those kind of things. And have the golf channel on and some nice couches and just
having a place that people can come to and sit around and talk golf. You know not just come in
and hitting balls and leaving. You know we're not looking to open a restaurant. We're not
looking to open a bar. Just something nice for people to hang out a little bit. And we would like
to...snacks and be able...talk about some pre-packaged items. We appreciate that. Although we
would like to just offer 3.2 beer. We aren't looking for a liquor license but it'd be nice...if they
want to have a beer. But basically that house would stay the same other than the interior
renovations and get it up to code and...shutters and those kind of things to get it looking good.
Roger Anderson: Yeah there should be in your report, there should be a little outline of a floor
plan.
Aanenson: Yeah, it has one.
Jeff Helstrom: Do you want me to go through this and kind of point out what we're going to do
in the house?
Joyce: Yeah, you can go through it real quickly I guess.
Jeff Helstrom: You know here's our entrance. We've got a little step... We've got a little
indoor putting green to handle just basically some small retaining wall to walk around there...
And then a nice area around a fireplace. After the storm there's plenty of wood down there. And
some tables and then just a little snack bar area. Out here we're proposing putting a deck on with
some chairs and tables...
Joyce: Do you have a question Allyson?
Brooks: Yeah, when was this house built?
Jeff Helstrom: I'm not sure.
Brooks: Why do you want that house a dark color?
Aanenson: That's what it said in the, that's what the standards are for it.
Brooks: What was the original color of the house though?
Aanenson: It's white.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Brooks: ...keep it white though because that way, you're going to go to all the trouble to keep a
1930's house, you ought to keep it in it's original color instead of turning it dark brown.
Aanenson: Well,they're modifying the entrance. They're adding a deck to it so they're not
keeping it. It's completely changed. Architecturally, I'm not sure the use or the entrance or the
decking around it is going to make it...what it is today. That's what the standards in this district
say so. And if you look at the entrance of it, it shows you that it's modified quite a bit.
Jeff Helstrom: I think that's,Roger did you have...
Roger Anderson: My name's Roger Anderson and I'm the civil engineer on this project and Jeff
and Chris have done such a good job of explaining things and they're so enthusiastic about it that
I don't have a lot to add. But there is a couple of things that we wanted to talk about briefly.
One of them I'd like to point out is an aerial photo that we have. Perhaps we have addressed the
question of whether farming is a worse condition or the golf use is... Coming in to the north.
The limits of the...there is periodically that this is a photo from the city...the golf course area is
right up in here. It's 400 yards long roughly,but at that time the agricultural use went almost
twice as far as it was in a Type II wetland according to Tom so the ag use slopes around and at
times there's significantly more ag...and weather conditions. The year round use of that property
is really one of the keys to making this work and part of that is the,just to let the golfer get out
there and hit balls except for...winter it's too cold. Maybe it's 0 degrees for example when they
can't hit. The shed system will protect them and there will be little direct heaters that can keep
the golfer warm which they have at the domes for example. The lighting system is the key I
think to making that happen on a year round basis. And in order to make that work, to make year
round use work, we need the lights out there. It would be roughly from daylight savings time to
daylight savings time that those lights would be in use. Obviously now you don't need the lights.
At golf courses and driving ranges that are out there right now, function from sunrise to sunset
and that's the traditional way to do it. And up through the fall, gradually the days get shorter and
we want to add a couple hours to that time. And the same things through the winter months and
the daylight savings get,people can't get away during the day to get out on the golf course.
That's why we're asking that this happen. I've got a couple of photos that show what typical
conditions are. Let's see if I can get this on the screen right here. This is a range out in Florida.
Chris has gotten pictures and it shows a typical range. You've got the tee boxes and then you've
got the grass hitting area and a target area. So this is a little different than your typical ones
because it's actually got a little... You can hit the target greens and the hills and the trees out
there to aim so you really practice your game and improve. Not just have a big, flat field. This
particular one also has...lighting and this is a picture when they're out at night. That's not snow
on the ground by the way. It's Florida sand... So you can see the impact of the lighting. Now it
doesn't light it up like a football field. The uniform light everywhere. It needs some lights and it
needs some light in here so you can see your ball flight and see what's going on. Those lights
would be in use, we're asking until 9:00 at night so we can extend our hours so people can use
the facility and at that time they get shut off. It isn't a 24 hour lighted area and it's just a parcel
part of the year that it gets used. This is a typical what you see if you look down the tee box part
of it,the grass hitting tees. You see these lights up above you and they'd be shining of course
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
and focused out onto the landing areas so you can watch you ball in flight. So we didn't ask for
the lighting for example to unreasonably extend the hours. We asked for that because we needed
to make this winter portion of the facility work for us. So that those people will be there. We
think we can control the right, the timing will be right on and that's why we're asking that the
light portion be looked at a little bit harder. Again, we modified the lights to minimize the light
that goes outside the limits. Our lighting engineers assured us we can cut it down to the half a
foot candle that is typical for lighting plans. Half a foot candle at the edge of the driving range so
there are ways I think we can make this a good neighbor to make it work and not impact the
wildlife and still make it a good year round facility that we're asking to provide here.
Chris Bixler: Can I just add something here?
Roger Anderson: Sure, go ahead.
Chris Bixler: I just spoke to the company that's doing our lighting for us. Giving us all the
information on it. They deal with a lot of issues like this every day. When they build golf
courses,there's wetlands everywhere. He assured me that we can keep our lights focused on our
range only. And that's what we wanted. It's not that we want to light outside of our area.
There's no need for it.
Jeff Helstrom: Basically what we need to light, and if you look at this picture right here, is our
green, which are right out here and here. And our tee box. So if a professional is giving a
lesson... that's the main importance for the lighting. And that would be very minimal because
the actual hours...summer extend it out probably only be a month and a half... but in the winter
we'd be using the same exact same lighting. It just filters up... people will be able to see their
ball, and they have assured us that they can focus that light strictly on...
Chris Bixler: Also if you notice in the back of this picture, that's the end of the driving range...
tree line. Now if you look in this picture again, you cannot see the tree line. It basically
eliminated that. That's how they...they've got anti-glare equipment that will be attached...
Roger Anderson: We're available to answer any other questions.
Joyce: Okay. Commissioners, do you have any questions for the applicants? LuAnn.
Sidney: I'm wondering you're talking about the supplier of the lights. Do you have that in
writing? Do you have a description prepared?
Jeff Helstrom: Oh yeah.
Sidney: Did we have that in our packet?
Chris Bixler: We just got this. Actually it was supposed to arrive last week and it didn't...lost in
the mail and he Fed Ex'd us a copy yesterday... Roger, did you bring any copies of that?
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Roger Anderson: We did bring copies but...part of the package and that puts staff and you folks
at a bit of a disadvantage but we did get 5 copies of their revised plan and a letter stating what
Chris had said and we'll be glad to pass them around and submit it with additional information
for the Council.
Sidney: That's what...
Burton: Actually one quick one. Can you describe the dugout part?
Jeff Helstrom: Basically what the dugouts are...a three sided dugout with the back facing north.
It's really important because typically your cold winds in the winter come from the north. It's
open on one side. It's high enough to swing a club in and it's deep enough that somebody can
stand back here and watch you hit some balls. So it's just a hard surface floor for hitting off of
and ultra violet, it's not like a...it's the kind you see in a hockey rink. They do really well and
they're pretty intense. We feel that, well we're sure that we can under semi-normal weather
conditions... We're not looking for 75 degrees...for someone to come out and hit a driver in
February, they'd be happy if it was 55 or 60 degrees. It's not an indoor playing...
Joyce: I'm a little confused on the lighting. You have this lighting plan. You have 10 poles
down on each end...
Jeff Helstrom: I did want to mention one other thing. You mentioned poles. We originally had
a 50 foot height that we wanted to go up with and DNR and Fish and Wildlife said 40 was a
better number. I mean we really can get away with 50 just fine. We don't have to have 60 and
then basically our lights are just focused...need the lights in back of the range will be on the
poles. Most of the other lighting is on...
Joyce: DNR suggested 40? Is that what you said?
Jeff Helstrom: Yeah.
Joyce: And you're going...60 is better?
Jeff Helstrom: We originally wanted 60 and 50 is...
Joyce: You've got, it looks to me like about eight lights on the winter driving area. Is that how
you would describe that?
Chris Bixler: No, we've got some low lights that shine on the, out of the ground on the greens...
Joyce: What are the other two lights over there? Are they used in the winter time?
Jeff Helstrom: These?
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Joyce: No. Keep going to the north...Those won't be used in the winter time?
Jeff Helstrom: No.
Joyce: So what we're talking about in the winter time are 4, 8, 10. Okay, 10 lights in this area
right here, correct?
Jeff Helstrom: Actually we don't even need...lighting. I'm not sure why that's even way out
there. This is the only area that we need to light because we only need to go out 185 yards. So
you're looking at 1, 2, 3,4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and we've got a couple behind the dugout that are shining
out and down.
Joyce: How tall are those A3? Those are 50 feet as well?
Aanenson: Yeah. That's what it calls on in the plan.
Joyce: So N10 and 9 are not even going to be there in these plans, correct?
Jeff Helstrom: Right. We don't need...
Joyce: What about N5? The two N5's. Are they going to be there?
Roger Anderson: These two will not be there. That was my error actually. These two are the
ground lights. I think if you look back at the photo you can see it. It highlights the putting
greens for example...small mound and a light behind it and the light will shine at that target
green... visible from the tee box without raising the entire light across the whole site.
Joyce: So you'd be lighting an area about the size of an average large size parking lot?
Jeff Helstrom: Right.
Joyce: Now, you mentioned that in February you'd love to have 50 degree weather. What if it's,
like it normally is, is zero. Then you shut down?
Jeff Helstrom: Well our plan is to,under put a sign out there and under inclement weather
conditions or severely cold temperatures,please call first before you come out because we don't
feel that if we're to have a southwest wind coming in it's 5 or 10 below, we're not going to be
able to keep the area...
Chris Bixler: I spoke with a company that makes the heaters and they said at zero degrees
outside, they can heat it to 55 degrees...if it's uncomfortable and it gets under, you know below
zero, of course we're going to have to close...
Joyce: So you're planning on this to be...
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Jeff Helstrom: And we may do something like this...golf balls when it gets under a certain
temperature in the dugout. We just want to...
Chris Bixler: We're all Minnesotans here. You know we're used to snow and that's kind of a
positive thing about this. I think it's...
Joyce: And your hours of operation will be Sunday through Sunday then?
Jeff Helstrom: Yes.
Joyce: All right. I think that's about all I have to ask. Thank you very much for your
presentation. This is open for a public hearing. Can I get a motion please to open it up.
Brooks moved, Conrad seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was
opened.
Joyce: Anyone like to address the Planning Commission? Please step forward.
David Albright: Good evening. My name is David Albright and I'm one of the owners and
hopefully sellers of the property to those gentlemen and I've got a very brief couple of comments
to make to you. I remember earlier Commissioner Conrad had voiced the concern that is this a
break even situation ecologically? Is it a losing situation ecologically or is this a gain? And I'm
here to tell you that I think it's a gain and here's why. There has been about 35 acres on this
parcel farmed for as long as anybody can remember. Some years it's 40-45. Some years it's 25
but for the most part it's 35 acres. And that has had broad application of not only fertilizers but
herbicides for all of those. Hatrazine. For a guy who made his living spraying that stuff during
summers when I was in college, that's terrible stuff for living things. It really is. So I think that
you really do have a net gain ecologically by having one spot spraying of herbicides during the
dry times with a no carry over situation as opposed to a blanket spraying them. Sometimes in the
wet times, but certainly with the one year hatrazine does carry over for at least 1 year and some
things you can't grow for 2 years with hatrazine. So you know it's going to be there if it floods
and you know it's going to be there in the springtime when snow is melting and presumably
draining into the creek. So I think from a purely ecological perspective,this is a win/win
situation. And there's another thing I would like to point out and that is, a lot of people are
familiar with the saying that gee, some people look at a glass as half full and others look at it as
half empty. I think that this body can look at this particular glass as not half full or half empty
but about 2/3 full because the amount of ground that these folks are going to be using is only the
high ground and in not the particularly sensitive areas. It's adjacent to or next to some sensitive
areas. But those sensitive areas are being left absolutely intact to...about 50 acres. And I know
one of the commissioners, I believe...are we better off acquiring this and maintaining it as a park
or natural space or green space. I think you can have the best of both worlds. The part that is not
particularly sensitive to the...by these folks and it's going to be something that's going to be
pretty. It's not going to be an eyesore. It's not going to be something that would also be allowed
by your zoning ordinance as a conditional use or an interim use. It could be a communications
tower or that type of thing. But the 50 acres of sensitive stuff is being left absolutely pristine,
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
unaffected. In fact enhanced by the lack of broad range, significant herbicides or fertilizers that
would be,and have been for the last 50 years. Been I suppose leaching into the creek area. This
is a chance to dramatically minimize it. Make it applied at the time that it's most
environmentally safe. And two, to apply an organic type of fertilizer which you folks have the
right to demand. So and I think these folks are sitting here today saying, you know. I'm going to
ask you to trust me a little bit but they are trusting you a lot. They're going to go spend several
hundred thousand dollars to do this project and give you folks a chance to negatively impact
them every year if they are found to be negatively impacting the ecology of the environment. So
I suppose they are asking for a little bit of trust but they in turn are virtually placing their
economic well being in your hands too and trusting that you will be good stewards of that trust.
Finally with respect to the lighting issue. I used to know a lot of about deer and wildlife because
I used to be a hunter and as I get older, I've stopped hunting because basically I don't like killing
things. But animals are not dumb. They really aren't. Deer are going to figure out that there's a
net there early on in their life and they are going to adapt to it and they are going to avoid it. And
I have seen a number of driving ranges,the one up in Bloomington. It's either in or next
to...Scott Park. They have huge nets and I don't drive by there every day but I drive by there
several times a week and I've never seen a bird stuck in there. So I don't know that that's, I
mean I guess I never even thought that that birds would do that because the birds that I know
have always been a lot more wily than perhaps I wanted them to be at the specific time I was
dealing with them. So I guess what I'm saying is, I think that this situation probably needs the
lights to work. But in return for that small intrusion, there's nobody living next to it. There
really isn't. There's not anybody. There's no houses. There's the Shakopee skyline lights to the
rear of the site. But I really do think that the city of Chanhassen could benefit significantly over
what's there, and certainly benefit significantly for this proposal over what could be there by
looking through the conditional uses there and uses that are allowed which would be a lot more
onerous and much more of an impact than this would be ecologically and socially. Does
anybody have any questions?
Joyce: Thank you for your comments. Appreciate that. Anyone else like to address the Planning
Commission? Seeing none, can I have a motion to close the public hearing.
Brooks moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was
closed.
Joyce: Ladd.
Conrad: Interesting issues. It's amazing here. I need a couple... Dave, septic systems check out
or we're going to look at it?
Aanenson: It's a newer system. The Building Official...
Conrad: Okay. But, because it now has to handle more than that.
Aanenson: Correct. Yeah, there's some other issues.
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Planning Commission Meeting - June 3, 1998
Conrad: And we require, what do we require Kate? Don't we require two different locations to
build.
Aanenson: An alternate...correct.
Conrad: And do we have different standards for a use such as this?
Aanenson: Yeah, and they'll have to meet all those. Correct and that's in the Building
Official's...
Conrad: Has the DNR, Fish and Wildlife, have they seen the most current plans?
Aanenson: No. They had an original meeting with them and we've spoken to different parties so
we're hearing different things. That's why we want somebody...
Conrad: I bet you I've got 12 pages of comments here and it's really hard. That's why I'm not
talking very quickly because it's really hard to net it out. It's an interesting use. There's
probably, there could be a better use down there. But I do need some help from, the problem as
we...we could force all sorts of things to happen that cost a lot of money in terms of the
evaluation and that's a good way to kill a project if you want to do that. Yet on the other hand I
guess I do need, it is in a sensitive area and I am not novice on some of these things. But I do
need some, to review, I do need to have some outside governmental experts talk about the plan as
is before I can do anything to it. I just need expert, some expert saying this is how I see it. I've
read the reports in here but it's not the most current report. It's not reviewing the most current
plan. Dave,you can correct me.
Aanenson: Well what they did is they modified their plan based on Fish and Wildlife. There are
some areas that there is not concurrence. As I indicated,Fish and Wildlife says 40 feet and we
concur. You can't have 40 feet because your ball's going to go over.
Conrad: They also said make it colorful.
Aanenson: Well the people that yes. Tag the top of the netting so that it acts as a barrier.
Conrad: I read it differently. I read it as make the netting visible is what I heard, is what I read...
Joyce: I heard flags...
Aanenson: Yes. There's markers... The other issue is,they felt there is a lot of literature on bird
migration and nets. That's not a concern of the DNR. What it is is the terrestrial animals. If it's
taut enough the birds will bounce off and what they're concerned about is if they get hooked in
the net. And if they use the right type of system,that shouldn't be a problem. It's the other
migration and stuff and the concern is...and we discussed is if that netting at some point, the
permanent one which is on the eastern border at some point is moved down. That's why we're
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
saying, we don't have enough information on what's migrating through there right now. We've
got our own...
Conrad: So what you're telling me is that we don't need to send the current plan. I need
somebody to tell me whether that creek is being impacted. I do fish trout. And you're right next
to something that I don't have a clue what you're doing to it but it's one of the few trout streams
in the seven county area. I just need somebody to say, hey. It looks like it's going to be better,
and I think based on what you said it's going to be better. But I can't trust you. I need somebody
that you don't have to pay a lot of money to, and probably somebody from government to take
risk to say hey. It looks like it's going to be, you know it's not going to be farmed. It's going to
be better and I think if you put your money where you mouth is, it should be better. But I need
somebody to tell me that.
Aanenson: And I believe we can work that...
Conrad: I also need staff to tell me what the conditions for review are before I can move on this.
Because it's only fair to you folks because I'd be real tempted to pull the permits, the conditional
use permits if things go wrong. Right away and you're going to put some money into this so
what staff is saying is that we want to review this every year and that review costs you a whole
lot of money in terms of what we could do to you. So I think you'd better make sure you know
what we're going to, how we're going to review you. It's not going, if this passes. If it gets out
of here and the City Council goes with it. But I need to see what those review criteria are
because for my own, and now you've got to deal with...and the trout stream happens to be mine.
That water quality can't deteriorate a bit. Not a bit. And I don't think it will. But somebody's
got to tell me that but if it does,a year from now, there's a good chance that the money you put in
is bad money. Because that'd be forcing you to do something about it. That's my little issue and
I'll bet you, everybody else here has something that might be precious to them or of concern. So
anyway, that's what I need and I'm not sure, I guess what we have to do here is see where
everybody else is netting out. Maybe my direction,and my direction generally would be to table
this to do a couple of these things. I want DNR and Fish and Wildlife to review the plan again. I
want them to tell me that this is better, that the water quality and some of these other things are
probably going to be a little bit better. Not perfect. You know it's not going to be like it was
pristine,but I want them to tell me that. I want staff to develop a list of what we're going to
measure so that the applicant knows what we're going to measure and what the standards are
going to be held to because you may not want to do this deal if we have some standards that you
really don't like. I also need to plan, and maybe the plan is in there for,but I didn't see it. The
plan for fertilizing and for, I just have to see the hard, concrete plan because that's really part of
what we're going to manage. Staff's going to manage. It seems like a lot of work but again, it's
the applicant's right to do this. There are some real benefits to doing it. But I'll say a couple
other things and then I'll just shut up and listen to everybody else. I'm not persuaded on the
lights yet. It seems out of character and as we look at our city's standards and codes and
whatever, I do agree with the staff report. It seems out of character. Somebody's got to tell me
more than. It is out of character with the area. There's just no doubt about it and therefore I
agree with the staff report that the lights should not be there.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Joyce: Thanks Ladd. Alison Blackowiak.
Blackowiak: Okay. I agree with what Ladd has said generally. I do have a few other issues that
I would like to raise. One of my overriding thoughts was, I think this is going to be, should this
go in, it will be a final use. I cannot see anything else coming afterwards because it is not
planned for sewer and water. It is not, I mean the zoning is such that this is the existing flood
plain. There might be a house on there. Maybe two. I just, I don't see a lot of potential for this
property other than agricultural. Other than open space or park. Or other than possibly this. It's
just not going to happen I don't think. So I think this is a final use should it come to that and
we'd better be really comfortable with what goes in there because I think it's going to be in there
a long time. So building on what Ladd said about the trout stream, I certainly agree. I read the
pesticide information and noted that it all seemed from the US Golf Association or some, I don't
have the official name. USGA. US Golf Association. I would say consider the source. I mean
I'm sure they're going to be biased in favor of whatever findings happen to help. There may be
some other findings out there that we as a Planning Commission should be looking at or the City
Council should be looking at. Maybe the Environmental Commission of Chanhassen has some
information of some sort or access to something because I'm not convinced that what I'm being
told is the entire story. It's maybe the story that they want to be heard but I'm not sure that I'm
getting all the information that I need to make a good decision. I am concerned about the Bluff
Creek management plan and how this fits in with the use envisioned by that plan. What, is this
in the primary corridor? What does that mean for it? I'm not quite sure yet and I'd like to know
what that has to do with this plan as it is right now. I also had comments about the over...
mechanism for pesticide usage, etc. and Ladd said it much better than I ever could I think that
you know the applicant also needs to know what's being measured. I mean the city has to
develop some standards. I mean what are we looking at? Are we looking at pesticide levels?
Are we going to measure them in terms of runoff? How do you do it? I mean number of golf
balls lost? Who knows? I mean what are we concerned about? You know what does the City
need to be concerned about? What does the applicant need to be concerned about? How do we
measure it? Because I think that once an applicant is in, or a use is established, it's hard to stop
that use. I mean I know that we've got conditional use permits that are broken constantly and I
don't think I've ever heard of anybody being fined or stopped from keeping their business
because conditions of the permit were broken. It hasn't happened. So I think that we have to
make sure that we know what we're going to go into and really get some serious conditions
written down. Both sides agree to it and make sure that everybody understands what's happening
going in. And finally, to me this plan seems out of character with Fish and Wildlife and DNR as
neighbor's but as long as they are a party to negotiations and to just sort of the general comments
about what's going on, I'd feel more comfortable. But until everyone sits down together, that's
the applicant, the city, DNR, Fish and Wildlife, I wouldn't be comfortable going ahead until I get
the consensus. I get the feeling that everybody is on the same page here and we're not getting
little bits and pieces from here and there. I want kind of a plan that everyone can buy into and
then come back and tell me, this is the plan we've all agreed to it and let's move forward. So I
agree with Ladd, I'd like to see it back after you get some more information and I would feel
much more comfortable if I had that feeling that all the players and all the interested parties were
being heard.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Joyce: Alison, another one of the key points here I think...is the lighting. Do you want to touch
on that at all?
Blackowiak: My note, totally disruptive. That was what I've got written down. I just don't
think they fit in at all. I mean as the neighbors, I mean if you're talking about Fish and Wildlife
and DNR and trout stream and then it's like lights. It just kind of seems out of character with the
neighborhood. Out of character with what's happening in the area and not consistent with the
comprehensive plan. What we had envisioned for that area so I do not feel that lights would be
appropriate.
Joyce: Thank you. Allyson.
Brooks: I agree with a lot of the previous comments. I actually like the project. I just don't like
the project where it is. I think it's a really nice idea. I'd really like to see it happen in
Chanhassen. The location is the problem. We've got a natural landscape down there and you've
got farming going on, it still seems like you have that rural landscape. You don't get rural
landscape anymore once they put the golf course in. It's suburbia. So we're changing the nature
of the landscape. If we talk about you know, it's agricultural or open space, a golf course
doesn't, you know you talk about vision. What is the vision that we want to put down there.
What do we want it to look like?
Conrad: We have none...
Brooks: Right, so. Okay. The nets. I mean figure out what the nets are going to look like.
There's one of those driving ranges on, in Eden Prairie on Crosstown. I mean they're obtrusive
looking and I can't imagine that they're not detrimental to wildlife at all. They can't not be
detrimental to wildlife. The lighting,I have to agree with everyone else. I don't want to see the
lighting there. I don't think it fits in with the area one bit. But it would be nice to see the project
happen so I guess I sort of feel like Ladd and Alison is that maybe it should be tabled until we
have a little more information. I'm very concerned about what the impacts are to the natural
resources.
Joyce: Matt.
Burton: Well I have no doubt that if you guys get turned loose on the project it will be a success
but I do agree that there are hurdles that you have to clear and they happen to be big hurdles...
(The rest of Mr. Burton's comments were not clear on the tape.)
Joyce: Thank you. LuAnn.
Sidney: I was thinking, when I went down and looked at the property and that was the previous
time when we thought it was going to be on the agenda, I thought oh. That seems like a good use
for the property and I still think it is a good use for the property and I hope you don't feel
discouraged about continuing on and building this... I agree with staff recommendations and I
think the, what staff has recommended now is based on the information that we have right now
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
and for example the pro shop would be okay. However the snack bar, I guess I do agree that I
don't think the need for alcohol is there, especially if you're talking about bringing a family and
making it a more family friendly area. Just the information we have now, limiting the hours and
not relying on lighting makes sense. And also the remodeling of the house according to staff
report seems that... What I'm trying to get at is, we just don't have enough information to really
give you all that you need to make this project successful. And I think...wildlife impacts studied.
A lighting study that would convince us that you know what they're doing and everything's
going to be okay with...pesticide program in much more detail. So I guess I agree with...I'm
kind of flexible. I was thinking that maybe this could go forward when I sat down this evening
but I think at this point I would like to see it tabled for more information. I think that'd make a
much stronger case for you to get everything in order here before it went to City Council.
Joyce: Thanks. Very interesting project. I appreciate your entrepreneurial spirit. I think it's
wonderful and I'm on the side in favor of trying to push this along but I have to agree with all the
other commissioners. There are definitely some hurdles here. The Highway 5 corridor...we're
going to turn it into something manicured. I might like it more manicured than natural. Some
people might want it more natural than manicured. I mean that's kind of personal opinion. My
concerns on this whole thing, whether you want to proceed forward or not, I think lights sound to
be like a deal killer. If the lights don't go in, I think you've got a problem. Now that might not
be the case. I think that's a major issue. I personally could live with the lights. The only
question or concern I have is that when we notified the neighbors...500 feet or something like
that, you know you do have neighbors up in the bluff that wouldn't be notified. And I think they
might need to be notified because I think this is going to impact them. And give them a chance
to come in and speak their piece. I don't want to put this up and then someday somebody you
know, the grand opening and somebody's looking at their back yard and said what the heck is
that,which they probably would. So I think I could, I'm...That kind of gets back to the vision of
212 and where are we going out there? Bluff Creek...still confused by that and I think if it's a
primary portion of Bluff Creek... I really don't have much more to say on this. I just hope it's
worth while for you to proceed forward so I think you've got a lot of direction from us. I'm in
favor of tabling it. I think it's our job here as a commission to kind of clean the proposal up so
you have a fighting chance of presenting it to City Council. And I think there's some valid points
here. I don't think it's insurmountable some of these things. I think we do need some more
information but you've got kind of a job to do here and I hope you can proceed forward with this.
So my recommendation is, I'd like to see it again... If you can't do without the lights,boy I'd
like to find out if the neighbors, what their feelings were. Things like that before I'd be in favor
of going forward. So with that said, could I have a motion?
Conrad: Mr. Chairman I'll make the motion but can I ask staff a question? Have we said things
that make sense?
Aanenson: Absolutely. I think you're right on as far as putting in so they know what we're
going to measure and hold them to. I agree...but what does that mean. Is it a few balls that we
have to go retrieve out of the wetland? I guess that's some good issues... I think those are all
legitimate and I think that we can work with the DNR, Fish and Wildlife to come up with the
standards that we can mutually agree to.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 3, 1998
Conrad: I'm going to make the motion but you know,as you sell us on one issue, you can see
how we can move on other issues. If we get the feeling that that water quality. I'll speak for
myself...water quality is improving. That can be persuasive for other issues that I'm not...so I'm
going to make the motion right now to table this item, Planning Case 98-8, an Interim Use Permit
and the zoning ordinance amendment.
Joyce: Can I have a second to that please?
Brooks: Second.
Conrad moved, Brooks seconded that the Planning Commission table action on the request
from RSS/Perma Green, Inc. for a Conditional Use Permit for alteration of a flood plain,
an Interim Use Permit site plan review to allow a golf improvement center/driving
range/office club house and variances to the size of building and hours of operation and a
code amendment to allow an office/clubhouse to be located south of the intersection of
Great Plains Boulevard and TH 212. All voted in favor of tabling and the motion carried.
Conrad: What I'd like to do is recover the issues that I think are important. And man, this list
could be big and I'm not trying to create a huge research project on this. But the most important
thing is for staff in doing the standards. We've got to know what we're going to hold you to.
You shouldn't do this deal until we tell you how we're going to measure because a year from
now somebody will be there and will be, and you don't want miscellaneous standards. This is, I
don't know where we go. There are a few people here that say the lights are out of character.
And a few people that say it doesn't matter. I don't know how you deal with that one, but you're
going to have to. It's split and you're going to have to deal with it. I need the DNR and Fish and
Wildlife to see the current plan and staff comments saying 60 feet is okay. I want them to see
what you're saying is okay. And for them to see it back and Kate if you can just guide them... I
don't even know if there's a trout in that stream Kate so when I say this.
Aanenson: No, there is.
Conrad: You know if there's no trout, tell me.
Aanenson: No there is...
Conrad: If there is, I'll go down and fish...we'll be reasonable on this stuff but on the other
hand, if there are trout in there you know and then I care...lot better places to go trout fishing
than right here but the point is to improve it and that's what you've got to do. You've got a
business proposition but we've got to improve it there because there's some things that aren't
quite right. They're not a perfect fit. And so therefore if you're not a perfect fit, you've got
variances and all these things, you've got to solve some of the harder problems. I guess I need, in
your application a commitment to refurbish after the floods. And Kate, maybe you've got some
standards and maybe that's in what we're monitoring but it will flood and I'm not going to sit
there and wait for 2 years until you financially can come back with the money to fix it up. I made
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Planning Commission Meeting - June 3, 1998
that commitment so if it doesn't happen, this is an interim use permit without an expiration date
Kate. So I need to know what you're telling me about that. Is that forever? I need to know what
the standards for fertilizing and treatment are. I need to know the plan and I need to know, yeah.
I need to know what the plan is and somebody to tell me it. Or whatever. I believe we need
broader notification. I think that's a valid point. We're not only impacting just the DNR on each
side but the folks up on the bluff. That's a real valid point. I need to know back from you Kate
what the Bluff Creek overlay impact is. I still don't understand it. It seems like we ignored it
here so...I can't track everything... That's what I'm looking for.
Joyce: I hope you can work with staff on this. I hope it comes back. I hope this will work out.
Jeff Helstrom: We'll be back.
Joyce: This is the best way to handle this because we need to tighten this up before it moves on.
Thank you very much for coming...
OLD BUSINESS:
Joyce: Any old business?
Aanenson: We had talked about not having...first meeting. Depending on this application we
may need you to...we may have to have that meeting. I'm not sure we can turn everything
around in the next meeting. We have the comprehensive plan set.
Blackowiak: I'm sorry, can you clarify that please. The clock starts,doesn't the clock stop if we
request further information or if we don't have all the information we have to make the decision?
Aanenson: Correct, and you can recommend denial and forward it if you want to. Well, I'm just
saying that pushes them out a month.
Blackowiak: So what are you telling me then? I'm sorry.
Aanenson: ..we were not going to have a meeting on the first. I'm saying if they get their
information in, we may have to meet.
Blackowiak: Oh,July you mean?
Aanenson: Right.
Blackowiak: I missed that first part.
Aanenson: I'm sorry, because June 17th we blocked out for the comp plan... I've already noticed
for public hearing. That's probably going to take a couple hours...if you want to meet at 9:00 or
10:00 or 11:00 on that item... So anyway, for your next meeting that's been blocked out as the
53
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JUNE 17, 1998
Chairman Peterson called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Ladd Conrad,Allyson Brooks, Alison Blackowiak, Kevin Joyce,
Craig Peterson and LuAnn Sidney
MEMBERS ABSENT: Matt Burton
STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Planning Director; Bob Generous; Senior Planner; and
Dave Hempel, Asst. City Engineer
PUBLIC HEARING:
AMENDMENT TO THE ENTIRE 2020 CHANHASSEN COMPREHENSIVE PLAN,
INCLUDING LAND USE,HOUSING,TRANSPORTATION, PARK AND
RECREATION,NATURAL RESOURCES, SEWER AND WATER.
Public Present:
Name Address
Anne Rasmusson 500 Broadway St.NE,Minneapolis
Mary Heiges Carver County Library,4 City Hall Plaza
Jill Shipley 261 Eastwood Court
Carmen McMeen 9391 Foxford Road
Kelly VonDeBur 1341 Lake Susan Hills Drive
David H. Peterson, ISD 112 110600 Village Road
Vernelle Clayton 422 Santa Fe Circle
Brad Johnson 7425 Frontier Trail
Kate Aanenson and Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item.
Peterson: Bob, can I just interrupt just for a second? As we go through these, and as you've
already mentioned,we went through these before. Were there any substantive changes to this
one?
Generous: Not in the housing element. There was very little discussion on that. We just refined
the numbers based on additional GIS information and taking out the wetlands and things like
that.
Peterson: There wasn't anything statistically significant to change it?
Generous: No.
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Aanenson: The only areas that changed was the completion of the consultant's, SRF did the
traffic study. And then the sewer and water,which reflect the changes in the capital investment.
And then the only other significant change was the envisioning implementation of the Park and
Rec. Those were the only significant changes.
Peterson: And you'll highlight those...
Aanenson: Yes.
Generous: Well part of the sewer and water policy plan was that, the 1993 plan anticipated
approximately 46,000 residents at build out. The city anticipates we will have 10,000 people less
than that when we're fully developed so that goes to the sizing of the piping and so that has been
a significant change from 1991.
Bob Generous continued with the staff report at this point.
Peterson: Have you assumed throughout this that, you're just using that 212 will be constructed
by the year 2020? You're not...
Generous: Well that's what they used in determining which roadway improvements would be
done.
Peterson: So all your assumptions you share are based upon the fact that.
Generous: That would be with or without. The functional classification would need to be
changed. There's a list of improvements that we would need to do within the plan with 212
being constructed by 2020 and without 212 being constructed and there are four additional
projects that would be necessary within the community without 212 being done. Those are, one
of them would be six laning Highway 5 east of Powers. Another would be four laning additional
roadway on, four laning Pioneer from TH 41 to the city limits. Right now, without Highway 212
we'd have to four lane it from Galpin to the city limits but we have to extend that farther to the
west if it's not constructed. This is all on page 11 of the transportation element. It's in the
second column. We'd have to four lane Highway 101, County State Aid 101 all the way down to
212/169 without 212 being built. With 212, it's only down to Pioneer Trail and Audubon Road
would need to be four lane all the way down to 212 also. So there are some significant impacts
without 212 going in. Additionally,all the local road systems would carry additional traffic as
people find other ways to get around the community. Part of our plan,we're showing collector
systems to provide local residents with access throughout the community without getting on
some of these larger roads. Like the Coulter Boulevard extension. The West 78th Street
extension. And we believe that helps on Highway 5 for instance. It helps locally but as a region,
it does little for the congestion that we see as Chanhassen and the communities to the west
continue to develop.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Aanenson: The other concern we would have is what happens when you have this function of
classification of road, if 212 isn't built and that it can divide neighborhoods and it's more
difficult to cross as pedestrians and bike riders. Speed and the volume and so it does subdivide a
community and we do have that concern.
Peterson: When you add up all these individual changes we have to do without 212, it's going to
cost more than 212, right?
Brooks: Well we're going to make Trunk Highway 5 six lanes and we're going to make the
Trunk Highway 101 four lanes. Geometrically you're going to have quite the challenge going
down those terraces. Is Trunk Highway 5 a principle arterial now?
Generous: No. It's an A-now.
Brooks: So it's the same as Lyman Boulevard?
Generous: Yes.
Aanenson: That's all we had. We'd be happy to answer any questions. Again, we'll be
available to respond to anything that you would have and we are recommending adoption of the
plan. As I stated earlier there is a comment period that is still open and it will be open until, the
end of 60 days and the Council will hold their hearing and give input too but it will not be closed
until the end of the 60 day comment period.
Peterson: Generally speaking Kate, to look at the audience tonight being very small. Less than
10 people. It begs to question, do we pass this on without additional public input of some sort.
Or do we have to beg, borrow and steal to get people here to do that? But you know clearly it
does present a question. Is there anything we can do or could have done better to get the word
out or do you feel as though that it was adequately addressed...meetings, even though...
attendance was small there. I hear stories of the '91 plan that it was hundreds versus less than
100 people in attendance.
Aanenson: Well I think there was a lot different issues back then. We certainly, there's some
people that have some strong feelings on certain issues. With again the MUSA expansion.
We've done some things, as we've moved from '91, such as the Highway 5 corridor study which
we've addressed some issues there and then when we did the Bluff Creek and we reguided a lot
of that. People were brought into the process and some of those people may have followed their
issues and they have been addressed. I share your concerns. I felt we got a lot of coverage from
the Villager throughout the year covering all the Planning Commission meetings. Giving input
on that. And we did advertise and got a lot of information out in city newsletter. There's a
brochure that goes out quarterly. We had both of those during the time frame we were doing this.
Again,about the town meeting and we also had articles in the paper on that. ...the Rotary Club
next week. Talking to the Chamber so I'm not sure what else.
3
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998 1`
Peterson: I hear, I think you hear our frustration and I think we hear yours and it's a matter of
what we can do, if anything, to continue sharing the process and have them be a part of this
instead of being enemies as they come in and realize that this is not supposed to be like this.
Okay. Questions from commissioners. There's a lot of, culmination of a lot of effort from a lot
of staff people and our time. And we didn't necessarily get a substantial amount of time to go
through it in detail,but again most of it has, we've seen before. Questions for staff from anyone?
Blackowiak: I have a question. Do we want to do this by section or how would you like to do
this?
Peterson: That's probably the most efficient. Why don't we take it by section and go through...
With that, are there questions for staff regarding land use?
Sidney: I have a comment. It was mentioned... Actually on the first page I noticed discussion
on the Highway 5 corridor study. Well not really discussion,just the mention of it. The Bluff
Creek watershed plan. I think some of those elements,the vision continues and those studies, we
may want to have that more delineated in the plan.
Peterson: In any one context, as far as a revision to...
Sidney: The revisions and more explanation, what...
Peterson: Any response to that Kate?
Aanenson: I think certainly the storm water management plan as,because it's already been
adopted, wasn't... It is an element of that and because... The Bluff Creek and Highway 5 are
certainly important. The fact that that gave us input to guiding. We had the two studies... It
gave us input to the guiding and vision. I think that would be appropriate to put those in as
summaries.
Sidney: I guess what I'm trying to impart is that as it goes to Met Council, we'd like to show that
we...
Aanenson: That's a valid request.
Peterson: Other questions regarding land use?
Blackowiak: I had a question. It's talked in here a little bit about the differences between the
assumptions of the city and the assumptions of Met Council and that forecast numbers were
different. Finally, what numbers are we using?
Aanenson: Ultimately we're at the same except for the,they just gave us the employment
numbers which we had validated by our own survey. We just got those Monday. Ultimately we
agree on the population. We're just getting there faster than their assumptions. We believe we'll
be at 35,000.
4
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Blackowiak: Okay, specifically I guess yeah, the employment numbers.
Aanenson: The employment numbers are low but we just got the revision on that so you'll see
those changes. We're in concurrence now.
Blackowiak: Okay. And then what about the MUSA expansion numbers? You talked about
them being too low. You felt the Met Council, these numbers were too low as well.
Aanenson: As far as our absorption rate. How fast we're growing and that's something that we
will, as we meet with them as they review this document, we'll impress upon them... They
concur that we'll be built out by the year 2020. It's just how fast.
Blackowiak: Okay, so what impact then is there on us when the two numbers aren't meshed? I
mean is there, do you have to come to concurrence before this can move forward or is kind of an
evolving document with the Met Council or?
Aanenson: Yes. We're going to sit down with them and demonstrate. We think that our
numbers will demonstrate where we're coming from.
Blackowiak: Okay.
Peterson: Can I interrupt just for a second?
Blackowiak: Certainly.
Peterson: ...stopped midstream, or mid sentence when you talked about, you thought you'd be at
35 by the year.
Aanenson: Right, 2020. That's our ultimate build out. We agree with them.
Peterson: You thought we're going to be there sooner.
Aanenson: No. We're growing faster.
Generous: Intervening years we're higher.
Aanenson: Intervening years we're higher,right.
Generous: If you look at the curve,we come together.
Aanenson: Right. Most of our population, as you get towards the southern end, there's less
density down there. If you look at that 2020 year, they've got the larger lot constraints and
development patterns so we believe our growth is going to happen sooner where we've got
5
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
development patterns and be able to provide...and I think that's easy to explain and that's just a
matter of educating.
Blackowiak: And actually just a comment, and I made this I think last time we saw land use.
Under the community liabilities. ...last time but I don't feel that large tracts of land being
withheld from MUSA are a liability. Or the...development within the existing MUSA and that's
on page 4, top. Left hand. And it's under community liabilities and I just really beg to differ. I
think that either we could move it down into the existing land use area. Into that paragraph. Let's
talk about that as being a liability. I think part of what makes Chanhassen unique, is it's
differences in land. Differences in how people live and where they live and to say that just
because some people have large tracts of land not being developed is a liability, I don't think is
fair.
Aanenson: Okay. Maybe I could clarify that.
Blackowiak: I understand you're talking about the financially, from a financial sewer and water
since that.
Aanenson: No. I'm talking about larger tracts that are being held out of, which is artificially
inflating prices. Land prices. That's the intent of that. People that have the wherewithal. It can
be viewed as a positive thing but in a negative side that it's holding out land that's currently has
the ability because we provide sewer and water in that area, and we can't use that system so in
order to provide additional sewer and water,we have to build another system. And these aren't
people that are in large lot subdivisions. These are people that are sitting on tracts of...
Blackowiak: Right,yeah. No, I totally understand but I still don't agree with the fact that it's a
liability.
Aanenson: The way I'm saying that is that, if we provided sewer and water for the entire area,
and there's an assessment on that, and that would serve maybe 600 homes. In order to provide
additional 600 homes we may have to build another infrastructure line to do that so there's a cost
and you can't recoup. You've made an investment that you can't recoup your cost. I hear what
you're saying but that was the point that we were trying to make.
Blackowiak: Well then maybe it just needs to be clarified because as I read it it says that
basically people holding large lots are a liability to the community and I don't think that's true
and I don't think that's what you mean to say.
Aanenson: I don't mean large lots, I mean large tracts.
Blackowiak: Large tracts, right. Say 100 acres or whatever you might have. Yeah.
Brooks: Maybe you could counter it in the community assets by putting in something about the
asset of somebody holding a large lot is that it keeps that rural character and it keeps that view
shed. So you at least have two views on it.
6
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Aanenson: Sure.
Blackowiak: That's all I have,thank you.
Peterson: Other land use questions?
Brooks: I have a quick one. I was a little confused where you have your, on the map where
you've colored in parks and open space green and yet you have it designated office industrial.
Does that mean that you want like...office, like right over here? It looks like you want sort of
parks and open space, it's like the Bluff Creek area but then you're overlaying it with industrial.
So I'm not sure where you're going.
Aanenson: Oh, in the Bluff Creek corridor?
Brooks: Yeah.
Aanenson: You have to provide another alternative unless you acquire it. If you don't guide it
something, you've only guided it open space...developing,basically you buy it. So you have to
give another land use alternative. That's the same situation we have south of, in the wildlife
refuge. It was guided...
Brooks: So I'm looking at green,where it's park and open space but it's also like residential
industrial. You've given me two types of use.
Aanenson: Right, and we have to. Legally we have to. And that was something we corrected
from the previous plan that did not provide that.
Brooks: That makes sense.
Conrad: Kate go through again on page 4. Tell me again why large lots, residential large lots is
going from 11% to 15%.
Aanenson: I'm not sure in the 1991 that they were all accounted for. The way the data was done.
There was large tracts of land south of Lyman that were not included that were kind of given
vacant but actually they were large lot developments but they were actually given the designation
of vacant. Or undevelopable so if you notice, if you carry that out to the year 2020, really the
only thing that's undevelopable is either a river or a lake. Previously in the '91 and the '80, the
acreage that was in there was given anything that wasn't given a land use designation, we had a
lot of white based on the map which isn't a land use designation. So it's kind of a holding zone
so those numbers that you were looking at for large lot, even maybe parks or open space was not
really a good number because they were balanced against all of the white which was vacant so
now if you look at the year 2020, the only thing that is vacant or undevelopable is a wetland, a
lake or a river. So it's a better reflection of really, and that's the big... So we're not encouraging
or guiding additional large lots.
7
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Conrad: ...not a good number.
Aanenson: The 15%?
Conrad: Yeah.
Aanenson: Right, and that's a fixed number one. We're not providing that in the future. That's
what's out there today. Because it's our intent to provide municipal service to the remainder of
the city.
Conrad: And then on the map, the zone...the MUSA line is. The MUSA line is the dotted line.
Aanenson: Correct,and that's the one today. That's, we're looking at a MUSA expansion as a
part of this plan. We're looking at the 5 year incremental increase. How we see the city
evolving. Again, as Bob had said too, that's based on sewer and water plans and infrastructure
based on where we've got road capacity. Where we have the ability to provide sewer and water
on a cost effective basis. That's how this was all based to get the future expansion. So what we
are recommending for the next area to be brought in would be the intersection area of TH 5 and
41. Now you look at that entire area that we've shown on the map.
Conrad: Kate, I'm confused. It says...you're moving MUSA down but on that first map, it says
2020.
Aanenson: Right, that's the ultimate land use. Not MUSA. That's the ultimate land use.
Generous: We should really take that line.
Aanenson: That's fine. Okay. Except that somewhere along the line we need to know if people,
where it is today.
.Conrad: Then say it. Just say today.
Aanenson: That's today's MUSA.
Conrad: When I read this, it says that's it.
Aanenson: That's the ultimate land use recommendation.
Conrad: Land use but then,but you've got MUSA line and that tells me that's 2020 MUSA line.
Well that's not true.
Aanenson: Yeah. Well we can put down in parenthesis, 19, MUSA line in 1991...
8
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Joyce: Kate, I know we discussed this before but I just, I bring it up again. For the
comprehensive plan 2020, we're doubling our population and we're reducing commercial
acreage?
Aanenson: Again if you look at the acreage we have in commercial it's more but if you look at
the percentage it's.
Joyce: It's actually less. In 1991 you've got 295.
Aanenson: What's skewed in some of that too is the mixed use. What we said before.
Joyce: So the mixed use is yeah.
Aanenson: Right, and you have to add in the mixed use also.
Joyce: Well still then, if you add the two.
Aanenson: But then you also have to add in, like as we did in Arboretum Business Park, we did
allow some commercial in there which shows up in the office PUD so we do have, it's probably
closer to three. And what we said in this is that, if you go back to the discussion we had before is
that we believe in some areas that there's appropriate places to put additional commercial under
the mixed use concept, similar to what we did at Gateway where we said you know, maybe a gas
station. Maybe some of those uses make sense to support the amount of industrial. And we want
to provide that opportunity in the future but what we're saying is we don't want to give it
commercial zoning right now because then you've kind of skewed what we want to have happen
there. We're saying, if it makes sense based on what comes in, we think it's appropriate and we
put that in our goals but we don't want to just give blanket commercial because we know what
happens when we do that. Then we're fending off things that may or may not be appropriate. So
what we're saying is that this is a minimum but the goals stated, if a mixed use project comes in
and we identify some areas, then it may be appropriate...
Joyce: The only other place commercial could go is mixed use then, right?
Generous: No.
Aanenson: There is additional commercial.
Generous: It could be.
Aanenson: As part of the industrial.
Generous: Yeah, as part of the PUD. Or as part of a large residential development. The comp
plan says you can have up to 25%of non-designated use within a project. And then it's up to the
city to determine if that's appropriate in that instance.
9
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Joyce: Okay. All right.
Conrad: Well I've got to take off on that because that's just a lead in. And again, I'm dangerous
with numbers and it's hard to sort through some of this stuff but as I see it, in 1991 for revenue
producing acreage, we were using 1,215 acres. We could use...not what was zoned for or we
applied. Those were active lists. In the year 2020 we're going up to 1,612 at max if it's all used.
Now I don't know what the mixed use, our factor is there so that's why our numbers are not
going to be real accurate. So today we've got 1,215 that are actively creating some revenue for
the city. And those are probably... In 2020 we can take a look and without a mixed use
component, we're up to 1,612. So that's a 400 acre increase. We're going to double our
population. But we're only going to increase our acreage to revenue producing functions for the
city by a third. We're going to double our population. So I asked Mark Koegler this and he
really said there was no way to tell. And that's probably true. There's no way to factor this in
but it makes me,just in simplistic terms from a lay person, it doesn't compute. If we really care
about keeping taxes level, if we care. That doesn't work.
Aanenson: But that's only one component. There's also the industrial component.
Conrad: No, I added office, industrial, and commercial together. I had all three,based on the
economics. I didn't add in mixed use. I took out, see what I saw, I took out what I saw in the
report that were not being used today, I deducted that from what was zoned for those uses.
Subtracted them. So if they got those today, it looks like we've got 1,215 acres being used
so...looks like that. But I can see what we've forecasted for total usage and that's 1,612 without
the mixed use. It doesn't, it doesn't make sense that we're going to keep our taxes in line. I like
very much the land use.
Aanenson: That was my question back to you is where would you put the additional commercial.
Conrad: I like very much what we've done. We've spent a lot of time on it and I'm not
knocking staff. I'm not, we helped you...the way. It doesn't compute.
Peterson: Which puts more pressure on our mixed use.
Aanenson: Well I mean this is an argument, I've heard this. We're going to hear it again from
someone else in the audience I'm sure. You have to go back to why people pick Chanhassen to
live here and what we have in our downtown. What's kind of our core issues and some of our
overriding, and what we do to maintain the integrity of that downtown area. We could put
additional commercial somewhere else, acreage. You may have some other issues then. If you
look at the land use as a sensibility and sustainability of some of the southern areas,we've said
we've identified some areas that we think may be appropriate for a mixed use for industrial.
Again you've got large lots that are already there that you're trying to work around. It gets tough
trying to blend some of these transitional areas in. I guess we looked at the integrity of the
downtown and trying to maintain that and what that does to this spread. We've got a lot of
commercial still that I'm not sure we're going to be completely,how fast it's all going to build
out even though we've got that population base. We've had a lot of commercial sitting there.
10
Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Trying to move it along but it's moving, it's still the industrial. We don't see ourselves as a
regional draw so we looked at what type of neighborhood business and what percentage you
have. It's a different mix than you would if you were a regional draw. And what that changes to
the character and what people value and that's when we went back and put some of that stuff
when the park group did their study. What's some of the values that they had in the community
so. It's a core issue to.
Conrad: I think it's real important.
Aanenson: It is. I agree with you. I agree with you.
Conrad: ...I'm elevating the issue. I like our plan. I've been a part of it. It's fine. But again I
think I've also been the one who's saying hey. We don't have enough of these other areas. As
the City Council has, they got elected the last time because of keeping taxes in line. This plan
won't do it. I think it's their issue. I just want them to really make sure that you know, we've
done some things that make some sense. There are parts and ways we can massage it a little bit
and add a little bit here and there. I think, I'd sure like to challenge. I think we can't do this. In
good faith and tell the taxpayers we've just done a 2020 deal and we're going to keep your taxes
even. That'd be dishonest. Now maybe there's a way to do it but you've got to but then, and
maybe it's okay. But I'm not confident that I can say this is the plan. It's a political issue. It's
not a planning issue. It's a planning issue if we're wanting to keep our taxes in line with where
they are today I believe.
Peterson: It goes back to the simple quality of life. Why do people move to Chanhassen? Are
they willing to pay for a residential style community?
Aanenson: Exactly. Exactly, and it also makes some assumptions based on what the tax, how
property is taxed today and how it's going to be taxed in the future.
Peterson: Other land use questions? We'll move onto housing. Questions on housing.
Joyce: I have a couple of minor questions. I had a problem following tables and figures on
housing. So I mean I've got, I couldn't find one table. Table 2.5.
Generous: It's actually, it's mislabeled. It's Table, labeled 2.6 on 224. And Table 2.6 is
actually the next page. That's the table.
Joyce: Okay. Well, I want you to...then you probably should just eliminate that or. In the
middle of page 18 it says 2.5 and 2.6.
Aanenson: We just need to correct the headings.
Joyce: Yeah. And there was another one in here. Figure 10.
Generous: Yeah, I found that today too.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Joyce: So, it's got to be frustrating. That's all I have.
Brooks: I have a question about agricultural preservation. It seems like we're talking out of
both sides of our mouth. On the other hand we're not zoning for any agriculture. On the other
hand in housing we're talking about, well we really want to save it and we want to do something
but it's really half hearted and I'm wondering,this would be the question for you to talk about
Ladd because you would like discuss it. You know, are we really going to save the agricultural
land or should we just come in and say, it's going to come to an end and we're getting it over
with because it's just, I feel like at some point we're trying to just fudge the issue. By saying
well yeah, we really want to preserve it and that's nice. So what does that mean for me if I'm a
farmer?
Conrad: Well ultimately it's gone. It's not part of Chanhassen anymore. Ultimately you've just
got to say, we're not. Ultimately it's residential or something like that. What you want to do is
not force them out of here.
Brooks: Right.
Conrad: So that's what we, if they want to farm, let them farm. Don't force them out.
Brooks: Right, which I agree with. I think it's going to be...farms but you know if that's what's
really going to happen, I wonder if we shouldn't put it some other way. I mean the way it sounds
now is that we're really going to attempt to keep them and I don't think we are. We're just going
to let them go until they're done. So maybe...not to get people's hopes up.
Aanenson: We'll just clarify that.
Brooks: I mean if it's really going to happen. If the farms are going away, let's just clarify it and
get it over with and state it like it is in the plans for the public.
Joyce: They're going to be phased out of Chanhassen.
Brooks: Well it's sad but that's if that's the reality, let's say it.
Conrad: We're not going to plan to keep farms here.
Joyce: I understood that from the report.
Brooks: Well I did and I do...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Blackowiak: Exactly. I mean it's just like, it's saying that we're going to do something but what
if it changes so dramatically that we decide this is not something we can be involved in or we
don't want to be involved in? I don't know. I just get so, I get worried.
Aanenson: Well...in 1995 is in place, I think we could and that's what that says but I hear what
you're saying. Is that if something else was mandated to do...
Blackowiak: Yeah, I just worry about stating something so uncategorically.
Aanenson: I think...in 1995.
Generous: You can change the policy and say the City will provide or promote the housing
diversity.
Aanenson: Yeah. We can look at that. I understand what you're saying.
Blackowiak: Yeah, I don't know. I just, it just sounded very definitive and I just.
Brooks: Why don't you just add a couple words in that says you know, we will participate as
feasible?
Blackowiak: Well, you don't even say that. I mean we plan to. I don't know. I just don't want
us to lock us into something because overall like what is the policy? If we want to change the
comprehensive plan.
Aanenson: We amend it.
Blackowiak: We amend it. Well what's the process?
Aanenson: We hold a public hearing. Make a recommendation to City Council and forward it
on to the Met Council.
Blackowiak: So is this something I should even be worrying about or should I,I mean?
Aanenson: Well I guess that's part of what I'm saying. Because as it was written in 1995 and we
have...I don't see that as an issue but what I hear you saying is that if there was to be changes to
it, we may not want to approve them. I think we can look at that language. You're having a
problem with will.
Blackowiak: Exactly.
Aanenson: Okay. So I'll look at that.
Blackowiak: And again, I guess if it's restricted to the...
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Aanenson: Or as policies are adopted by the plan,be more specific to what we've already done
instead of something in the future.
Blackowiak: Yeah. I just hate to lock us into doing something that we may not want to do and
find it onerous to go and change in the future.
Peterson: Other comments?
Joyce: Kate, as anybody showed any, expressed an interest in the 25%bonus on the net density?
Is that something, we just implemented that?
Aanenson: We had it in there before.
Generous: Yeah, there were no numbers in the comp plan that actually permitted that. We did
discuss this with some of the developers and say you know, for multi-family, it might work for
them but there's no projects going forward right now that we could really make it.
Aanenson: The problem we had before the '91 plan...density bonus but you still couldn't exceed
the density range. So it really wasn't a bonus at that point so that's why we clarified it here. And
you asked us to go back and say well would anybody even take that as a bonus though. Bob did
follow up on that. And those people have said that it may work for them.
Joyce: As hard to give you any feedback on that when you haven't at least seen something or.
Aanenson: Right. We talked to three developers that have done work in this type of product and
they seem to think that it was a reasonable thing to leave in there. The problem again where we
had to forward it. You couldn't exceed the range. Well then it wasn't a bonus.
Joyce: Okay.
Conrad: ...Met Council to review...
Aanenson: Well I think that's something that they want to...that we're looking at density
bonuses. It was kind of before when we had someone come in we felt good if we got them down.
We did our job if we knocked off a fourth of the units or something. What we're saying now is
that we want to do quality development, sustainable that works. That meets the housing nitch
and it is, if it does make sense and then there's an opportunity to maybe give some density
bonuses.
Conrad: We're asking questions now. Then we're going to have the public hearing and then
we're going to go back through this.
Peterson: With comments...maybe just summarize your. As we go through with this...
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Conrad: The density bonuses is neat. So I'm making a, this probably should be for later on but I
really like that. But I also watched, I've watched good projects and I see bad projects and you
know a good project, wow. You want to give them a bonus and boy, I can take you to some.
And I can also take you to some that are just awful and we don't want them here. And they
would be affordable housing and we don't want them here so, so that's one of those, you've
really got to have the right standards and whatever but I think that's a neat way. If we care about
affordable housing, that is the way to do it. If you care about land prices, that is the way to make
affordable housing more affordable. If you care about reducing land prices per house, that's the
way to do it. This is an action oriented deal to do but you've got to have control on it. And I'm
not sure if the bonuses work very well for the high profile type. I don't know.
Peterson: Natural resources. Questions? Comments?
Conrad: It's really a, it's a great section.
Peterson: Succinct and profound.
Conrad: ...as good as it can get.
Peterson: Move on to parks and open space. Kate, you mentioned that the...referendum in 5
years?
Aanenson: That was the Park and Rec Commission's view. They set that as...
Peterson: Any idea as to what extent...
Aanenson: Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with the rate of growth now and what they are able
to acquire. And if they feel like they need to get out ahead again, the rate of growth. Because
their revenue stream as, is generated by building permit activity. As that wanes as we become a
fully mature city, they're going to have to find another revenue stream...so if you had a golf
course or something else that's generating revenue, that's kind of what they're looking at long
term. If they don't have those abilities with the permit, they may be exploring other things...
Peterson: Other comments? Questions?
Brooks: I really like the implementation section. I think it's very good. Particularly creating an
Arts Council is a great idea. Although Ladd,your amphitheater isn't in here. But it's good.
Peterson: Questions? ...Transportation. Bob went through that methodically. Tantalizing
numbers. Any other comments on those?
Brooks: I do. Amazingly enough. As I said quite vocally before, I am worried. I don't really
understand why Trunk Highway 5 is an A minor arterial and not a principle arterial and every
time I ask for an explanation, I never seem to get a good one. I would like a really good
explanation. From my perspective, from the lay person's perspective, and not being a
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
transportation planner, I see Trunk Highway 5 as our main artery. It is the main passageway
where people come from the cities and go to Waconia and on and people talk about Trunk
Highway 7 but it's, for Chanhassen it's such a small part. Trunk Highway 12 is such a small part
and we're not getting new 212 until 2020. The new transportation bill, T-21 is going to bring in
an extra $515 million into this state. However, whether that will be used at all for Trunk
Highway 212 is to be seen. So I think that the other problem that I find here that really red
flagged me was the idea that Trunk Highway 5 could be turned back to the county. And I think
that's pretty serious. You know, we get turn back funds and when I ask about that, I don't know
if turn back funds are a one time deal to do improvements and we never get them again or we get,
I don't know. We get them for a while but I would, it says in here not to turn, not to take it back.
I think we should put it in like big letters. But I also think that we should really consider why
Trunk Highway 5 isn't a principle arterial. And that would stop the whole turn back issue.
Aanenson: Well there was a couple things on that. Maybe Bob might want to add some things
but obviously the turn back would be a problem if they decide to go to six lanes because we
didn't get 212. That would be a big... Then the other issue is funding sources. As long as we
keep 212 as our principle collector system and we're going to...for additional funding,we
wouldn't want to try to be competing with the Highway 5. That was one issue that we were
thinking about...
Brooks: But I would suggest that you worry about Highway 5 after you get 212. I mean if you
want to fix old 212.
Aanenson: No, I'm talking about new 212. Keep that as our opportunity to keep...funding
sources and direct it towards that as opposed to. Instead of six laning TH5. That would be our
thought. That we focus it there instead of looking at the possibility of six laning TH5. Try to
keep the energy down on acquisition and construction of 212.
Brooks: But you're going to have to really keep pushing then because otherwise we're going to
get a whole lot of nothing. Also, Figure 6. It says future capacity problems, assumes no 212.
The way the graphic is done, there's no capacity problem between Powers Boulevard and TH41,
which is a surprise to me. Because I drive that every day. I think that's just a graphic's issue.
Generous: You mean on TH5?
Brooks: Yeah. You see that where they have it bold and then it sort of isn't and then it's bold
again. Is that just a mistake or do they think there's no...
Generous: Yeah, that assumed four laning.
Brooks: So I don't understand. It's four lanes all the way up to Powers,but that, they have this
bolded as a potential capacity problem and then all of a sudden there's no cars and then there's
cars again? I mean the graphic doesn't make sense to me.
Aanenson: Well the distribution at Powers and at TH 41 would take some of that pressure off...
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Generous: That's what their traffic models show on there. That segment would be upgraded.
Brooks: I don't know about anybody else but I find that very strange. Very, that all of a sudden
you've got traffic problems again. You've got this little segment where the traffic problems go.
Have you ever driven that? Ever tried to get out of Audubon Road?
Aanenson: Yeah, and a number of, in that Figure 5 there's the volume forecasting.
Brooks: Well I have real trouble believing that on one small segment all of a sudden we're
relieved of congestion, and it picks up again at Highway 41. But that's.
Generous: Well that's because it's only two lane rest of TH41.
Brooks: I still have conceptual problems. Also I did ask that SRF, the consultant take off their
free advertising. I don't think our comp plan is the place for it. Oh and the, I had trouble reading
the TAZ, the traffic analysis zone. That graphic was tough for me too. I hadn't, it's not very
clear. It's a difficult read.
Generous: The one on page 5?
Brooks: The one on page 4. You can kind of see it but it's real tough. So if they could fix that,
that'd be great.
Peterson: Other comments?
Blackowiak: I have a general question. This is probably stepping back a little bit from where
Allyson was asking about. Talk to me about the road designations and what the significance is of
a road designation to the city. And why they need to change some of the road designations. Why
some of the suggestions to change from A to B or B to A were made and help me understand the
whole.
Generous: Part of it has to do with jurisdictional responsibility. The arterials are generally
higher level. Higher design standards.
Aanenson: Like the State would have maintenance and costs control. Then there's county.
County roads.
Generous: So principle arterials,those are all state. Highways and when they prioritized road
projects, they get pushed back above minor arterials.
Blackowiak: Okay. So Highway 5 now is State Highway 5. So how come it's not a principle
arterial?
Brooks: There you go.
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Planning Commission Meeting - June 17, 1998
Blackowiak: But I mean seriously. It just doesn't make sense to me. And then I look and I was
trying to read you know, so and such is going to change from A minor arterial to a B minor
arterial and why do we care? I mean why is this happening and what impact does it have on the
city?
Aanenson: It's a fair question but you have to go way back to when 212 was put in place. That's
what our comprehensive plan was built around and that was to serve as the main highway
through the community. Ultimate to carry a lot of traffic so Highway 5 was not put at that
function of classification. But as time has evolved, it's carried more and more traffic and
because 212 hasn't been built, it's functioning different than the classification. Does that make
sense?
Blackowiak: Yes it does.
Aanenson: Okay.
Brooks: But the big issue is that the functional classification, and correct me if I'm wrong Dave,
is related to funding.
Blackowiak: Okay, so can we, who decides, can we say we want Highway 5 to be classified as a
principle arterial?
Aanenson: No. That's goes to what I was just saying before. You can do that but then what
we're saying is that we're trying to put emphasis on getting money towards 212.
Brooks: Well we can recommend that. Doesn't the Met Council have the ultimate decision on
that?
Aanenson: And MnDOT, correct. We'd just be a recommendation and that's something you
want to do but again, the flip side of that would be, we want to make sure that we're not putting
emphasis on making that a six lane and getting funding for that, but we're saying we want to put
our emphasis on the 212 construction. We just want to make sure that's.
Brooks: But if examine the cost of turning TH 5 into a six lane and if 212 is going to cost I
believe $200 million? What do you have a better chance of actually ending up with? Neither
one are on the schedule anyway.
Peterson: Or which one's better? I mean just because one is more expensive or is cheaper
doesn't necessarily mean that it has...value return.
Brooks: No,but if you want to at least move the traffic better. I mean are you going to aim for
something that may never happen whereas you could at least.
Peterson: ...person's return. What are you placing your bets on?
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Brooks: Right. And you know Trunk Highway 5 is a principle arterial. It still gets federal
money. And as you move away from that,you know like I say,now it's eligible for a turn back.
We end up with a county road. Well then what happens if we never get 212 when we do want to
upgrade it to six lanes? The cost is on us, Carver and Hennepin. Well Hennepin has the money
but. Then we have to apply for ISTEA grants and then we're in competition with everybody else
who wants to do the same thing.
Aanenson: I think it's a good question that we should be.
Peterson: Other questions of transportation?
Brooks: You talk about commuter rail. The city supports the continuing investigation. Can you
just define support a little bit? In the document. I think we should really say what we mean by
supporting it. Because otherwise I went and sat through a talk today and it sounds like we could
really disappear pretty quickly. Our line could be dropped because they're not, it doesn't sound
like the group that's studying commuter rail is very excited about our line because there's a super
fund problem in St. Louis Park so I would say, you know if we really support, if we really mean
we support this, what does that entail?
Peterson: Ladd, do you have a comment?
Conrad: Yeah,just a question. Different places, and I can't find it. I thought the, I got real lost
with transportation section. Stuff I saw over and over again and didn't know where I was at but
there were two points on Highway 5 that interested me. One that said that the capacity is 45,000
cars a day. And another that said the demand at 2020 will be 47,000 cars a day. That doesn't
look like a problem to me. A big issue.
Generous: That's with 212.
Brooks: It's our imaginary road.
Conrad: That's the assumption with 212?
Aanenson: Yes.
Conrad: Then just a,boy. The way it looks is, even though you said it, it's just not, it just
doesn't scream at me that we have a Highway 5 problem. You said it. That we have a Highway
5 problem but it just doesn't seem like a big deal,you know which I got lost on that and I tried to
read this carefully. Between words like has and other things and stuff but it just, I don't know.
Brooks: Maybe what the consultant needs to do is bring out the fact that it's level of service F
and really define more clearly what that means. In terms of wait times. What does level of
service F mean for the public?
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Planning Commission Meeting - June 17, 1998
Conrad: But it could be just as simple as Highway 5 is to the, you know...some straight stuff
and maybe it was there in graphs and charts but I couldn't sink them altogether. I just want to see
that today the capacity is there and it's going to be exceeded by this. I don't care about 212. It's
not going to happen. I don't want to factor 212 in because we've been told it's not going to
happen for a while so there should be, I don't know where it takes us but I really want that to be
so clear. That we're, it's not a highway that's going to service...double our traffic. IF we double
our population, we'll double our traffic. And it just doesn't, it just seems like we're, I really
want to make a major case before them on that highway.
Blackowiak: And the thing is Ladd, it's not just the Chanhassen people who use Highway 5. I
mean we're going to double our,you know what's going to happen in Victoria and what's going
to happen in Waconia and what's going to happen west in terms of population increases and how
is that going to impact us? I mean it could happen expediently. It's not going to just be, you
know double.
Conrad: You're absolutely right. You know what happens when you put stuff on paper, it's just
all there and you're following a format and the key thing just doesn't fly out at you because now
you've got to talk about other issues and I lose it. And maybe it doesn't count. Maybe it's not a
big deal because we all know Highway 5 is a problem and we're going to solve it...
Brooks: No, you have to bring it out because the Met Council's going to be reading this and it's
a document for government use too so it's important. You know when you talk about doubling
population, we talk about new 212 but that veers down towards Chaska and really if you look at
the county projections, there's going to be a big density growth out by Waconia, which means
that you know this goes back to my Trunk Highway 5 as a principle arterial argument. The
growth centers and the traffic that's moving through Chan to get somewhere else is still going to
stay on TH 5 even with new 212 because it's just where the housing is growing. I mean there's
still going to be growth in other sections of the county but not like out to Waconia. So that, you
know really sort of begs the question of is new 212 going to alleviate that much. Or should we
be hedging our bets on TH 5. I have one more quick thing. You had a great section in your
housing thing, page 22 where you showed action,responsibility and funding. I thought that was
- a really great table and I think it would be really nice to do a similar table for transportation for
the projects you've listed.
Aanenson: That was for the Livable Communities Act. That was specifically for that.
Brooks: Where you had kind of...
Aanenson: Yeah, that's our action plan for the Livable Communities Act.
Brooks: Right, but I just like the idea that you have action and responsibility and funding,
because like TH 101 responsibility is you know, Carver and Hennepin and you know what are
the different funding sources. It's just a really nice table so you can see.
Peterson: Other questions? Sewer and water. Questions, comments from the commissioners.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Conrad: Good reading.
Aanenson: Yeah, it's for the technical people.
Peterson: One of the last meetings Bob you talked about how much we have available in
waiting, for lack of a better adjective. ...still apply to your.
Generous: Availability?
Peterson: Available land. That follows through 2020 5 years consistently as we build this...
Generous: Yes. The 2000 expansion area, if you will, doesn't add that much. But there's a little
more than 5 years built into the existing.
Peterson: Is 5 years pretty much a standard across the metro area? If you say you went from 5 to
3, wouldn't that substantially change the capital investment involved? Or is it the same?
Aanenson: That's a lot of what it's based on. The ability to,the city can only carry so much
debt. That has a lot to do with it. We'll be bringing in the area that's got the, that we're
recommending first. We've got the Arboretum that's in that area, that's in Hennepin County
Regional Parks and if you look at the actual acreage, it's quite a bit smaller. But that is tied into
the capital investment plan because the city, if we have to build a new lift station...additional
lines for another water reservoir or well, there is a much larger capital investment. So is there a
magic in 5 years? If the economy stays strong and we were able to move faster and go back and
petition and say we're out of land. It's artificially high. We'd like to bring it in faster. Could we
do that and come back to you and make those recommendations? Sure. May it be slower than
that? That's a possibility too. But again these are benchmarks based on what we felt was...
Peterson: And part of the picture that I'm starting to see and be concerned about is, we're talking
about transportation problems with that road. And the inherent cost of a transportation problem
is enormous. Now moving onto the next section and talking about MUSA and having that a 5
year out, is that, are we thinking too far ahead and opening up...before the transportation system
can handle it?
Aanenson: That's a very, very good question and I think that's a legitimate question that I would
hope that we would have gotten from the residents a long time ago. Is that maybe we don't
know. Maybe we just wait. Part of that is, as Allyson pointed out, we have to look at where we
are in the nation and we can say well we're not going to grow because the school district...our
property taxes,but then we have to look at the impact that we're going to be burdened... but
that's a very good question and that's certainly an option to say let's just slow down and see what
happens. But then you have to look at the flip side on what it does to land prices.
Peterson: That's the delicate balance... My concern is quality of life versus the quantity of
people. I don't know if I get that sense out of your natural...
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Aanenson: Well that's why I guess when we looked at, in the natural resources plan and again on
our reflection of land use and I know...commercial and what we are downtown, is how we see
ourselves and certainly taxes is an important issue and we looked at in looking at development
patterns. What we tried not to do is traditional larger, kind of what I would say more... trying to
do clustering and saving those. A lot of moved here for natural resources and trying to be
sensitive to that and again, trying to be fiscally responsible...but that's what we tried to do. You
know as we moved along, which we think we were on the right course with the 1991 plan. I
think that was well founded. We've made changes and adopted things that were put in place and
this is just a continuing evolution of the guided principles that we have.
Peterson: Other questions and comments on this?
Brooks: I think it was well written. For the public. For the most part I had an easy time reading
it. I know...transportation kind of, unless you're,you know it's written by engineers so I mean,
no offense...with that but.
Aanenson: That part we did consult out. It is very technical.
Brooks: It's very technical.
Aanenson: I hear what you're saying. Maybe we need to look at trying to make it a little bit
more user friendly.
Conrad: ...I read that report and I couldn't figure out why I was reading, you know what are you
telling me now? And then, a lot of read time trying to figure it out.
Aanenson: And that's why the sewer and water, that part...same sort of issue. It would have
been very technical and we can work on that.
Peterson: Capital improvements...how did these numbers...
Aanenson: I'll let Bob answer that...
Generous: The majority was based on our phasing plan. The MUSA expansion and when the
study that was done for the traffic, sewer and water and you just put them altogether. The only
thing that was sort of put in there differently was a community facility and the city hall expansion
and library and the City Manager put that number in there. Looking at trying to space things over
time so the city could afford it.
Peterson: ...2002.
Generous: $1.5 million. The $10 million was the community facility I believe for parks. Which
could be...
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Peterson: On the park and rec side I see the community center for$10 million in 2002.
Aanenson: That hasn't been defined exactly...could be a lot of different things. When you're
shooting that far out it's still a wish list. We have to look at this annually but we try to project
out ultimately...
Joyce: What's the public works expansion...
Generous: That would be the maintenance facility. Expanding that.
Aanenson: Public works.
Generous: For the trucks. The snowplows.
Aanenson: Public works. Where they house all that equipment which is currently out on...
Peterson: Why don't you speak to the library just a little bit...changed from our last meeting.
Aanenson: Yeah, it hasn't changed. Again it was put in the City Hall expansion that was done a
few years ago. It was designed to be incorporated with that. It was pulled out by the City
Council in a cost cutting effort... AT that time it was pulled out. The number wasn't arrived at
by planning staff. It was really given from administration where that number would be put in
play. Again, looking at...as far as all the other services and again, how much debt can you carry
projecting those numbers out. Does that mean that it can't be shifted around? Ultimately it's
going to be a decision by the City Council who adopt that. They did a long range plan but every
year they're going to have to go back and re-evaluate. There may be something that becomes an
urgent need where we projected that...urgent need. A well goes out or something like that. But
that's where it's put in place right now. Certainly the Council makes,ultimately make their
decision on...
Peterson: Other questions or comments... A lot of input. This is open for a public hearing. Can
I have a motion to do the same and a second please.
Joyce moved, Blackowiak seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was
opened.
Peterson: This is a public hearing. Anyone wishing to address the Planning Commission,please
come forward and state your name and address please.
Mary Heiges: Good evening. My name is Mary Heiges. I'm the Director of the Carver County
Library system. I live in Chaska. I have been the Director of the Carver County Library system
for 20 years and August 1 I will be retiring from that position. When I came to Carver County in
1978 there was no Chanhassen library. For those of you who have been around that long. One of
the first tasks that I was given was to get a Chanhassen library established in this city. We did
that by convincing the Council to take over the old Village Hall and put in what I called a
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
demonstration library. That demonstration library would be there until the city had a referendum
which they had in 1981. And I think you know the history of that. We think, and we have been
told also by the city staff and the community that it was the library that put that referendum over
in 1981. That's we opened in '81 in this room right next door. We had asked for 3,000 square
foot library, which in 1981 that would have been fine. We received 2,300 when some cutbacks
had to be made. So then we started working on trying to get a larger library for the community.
For the city. But we also had other, four other cities in this county who are also growing. Also
making the decision. Having planning commission meetings. Having City Council meetings.
What would they do with their individual libraries? All of them were small and they were very
small towns. I live in Chaska. So we tried to work with all of the cities and that was my job.
Working with city staff. With Council and planning commissions. There were a lot of
accomplishments made with those cities in that they really put some priorities onto their quality
of life which they considered libraries to be primo. For instance the little town of Watertown.
Very small, as you know Watertown. Indebted themselves and built a City Hall library about two
years ago and it's bigger than the Chanhassen library is now. And that's even with the addition
that we received in 1989 when we thought we would have the whole down, first floor. The
senior center of course took part of it and we received 700 square feet. So that brought us up to
where we should be in 1981. So we rearranged everything. Put in new carpeting. Tried to really
make it as convenient and workable,both for the staff and for the community. And I think we
did that pretty well. Even as the community was growing,people really made wonderful
comments to our staff. We tried to build the staff up with a lot of education and all this time the
County's putting in thousands and thousands of dollars into that facility. Both in staff and
materials and computers and internes access and equipment. Last year we got another 200 square
feet. So now we're almost up to the size of Watertown's new library but we're not quite there
yet with Chanhassen. Chaska, the most our main library of course, built in the building in 1988.
And had a 10 year plan that they would expand that library in 1998. And that's what they're
doing this year. They will receive another 5,000 square feet onto that library next year. Or our
plan's for next year. It will probably be... And then we've got Norwood-Young America. Used
to be a little town, split town... Got an old bank building given to them. We remodeled it. That
library is larger than Chanhassen. The library in Norwood-Young America is not that size of a
community. And lately,the most recently was Waconia. Another small town but growing. A lot
of growing pains. A lot of infrastructure pains,just like all of our other five cities. They're
going to be building in a building or remodeling a new library next year, 1999. So that leaves us
with Chanhassen again. And it leaves me leaving with a disappointment. I thought that when I
left there would be a new Chanhassen library. I've worked with the staff. In '92 we were so
close to getting a separate building. We could almost taste it. And that didn't happen. And now
I feel the comprehensive plan that you have before you tonight,that the city staff I understand put
in a new library facility in 2005. 6 1/2 years from now. 6 1/2 years. The library that we have,that
we've added hours to. That we've added staff to. Is going to be in the same place for 6 1/2 more
years. Same space. Libraries are not going to go out of business. The materials are not going to
go away. People are not going to give up reading books. Every study that you read, it's saying
the same thing. Every book store that goes up and is doing millions of dollars of business, is
saying the internes and the computers are generating more people,more reading, more books. So
the books are not going to go away. And yet we have no place to house them. Particularly in this
town. So I'm here before you tonight as my swan song, and my last shot at it shall we say, to ask
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
you to recommend to the Council that you change the 2005 year downward to at least planning in
2000 with construction and completion in 2001. That this library in Chanhassen now be an
adequate library for the city of this size. For the people who are moving in. That are demanding
service from us next door of 15,000 square feet. That will take us into the millennium and we
won't be back here every council meeting. Every planning,begging and trying to get whatever is
left over or a couple hundred more feet,whatever the city or the senior center for some
congregate dining. The Chanhassen library is now the smallest library next to Waconia.
Waconia's going next year. And then Chanhassen will be the smallest library in this county. So
I ask you to make that recommendation to the City Council. It's kind of an impassioned plea I
might say because I've spent my life in libraries. And I'm going to continue living in Carver
County and I would like to come over once in a while and use this library, even though I live in
Chaska. I think it's a good library and the staff; I can only say has worked their bodies off to try
and give good service, and I'm saying that... They've done their very best but you're really
hampering them by having such a small facility. A facility that's no longer accessible for some
people. That you can't do the programs. The children's programs. The various book clubs that
we've got going on. There's no room for it. We have no room to put one more item in there.
We've rearranged several times. We have tried to keep up with the American's with Disability
Act requirements. We can't put anything more in there. What you see is what you're going to
get for 6 1/2 more years. So that's my comments tonight. I'll be watching after I retire and hope
that your recommendations to the Council are positive and favorable and that the last library, the
first library that I started will have a new expansion or new building sooner than 2005. Thank
you.
Peterson: Thank you.
Carmen McMeen: Good evening. My name is Carmen McMeen. I live at 9391 Foxford Road.
I have been a resident of Chanhassen for the past 5 years and I applaud you. I think you've done
a wonderful job. I think you've really captured a lot of the residents' feelings about this city and
a major reason why we moved out here. I've had friends come and visit and they comment on
the peaceful nature and the calming effect that it has on them and I attribute that a lot to the
natural resources and the park and recreation and the wonderful job we've done with that but,
I'm here tonight, I'm implore you for some balance. When I look at this plan and I'm fully
supportive of the park and recreation. I've got two children playing ball right now. But $24
million being allocated towards park and recreation between now and the year 2005 and $1.5
million allocated towards a new library. We need balance. Human beings need balance. You
have a physical side, an intellectual side, a spiritual side. And I can't address spiritual side. I
think you've done a fabulous job of addressing the physical side. But we're not making the
commitment to life long learning with this plan. It's not in there. I have written letters to the
City Council. I came on a very cold night in December in support of the Library committee
because I think this is a really critical issue to our community. Being a young community. A
growing community. I was embarrassed for us. My first grader wanted to do a report on jaguars.
One article. That's embarrassing. I have a child going into middle school. I spent many, many
days and nights and weekends in the Southdale library chasing after my education and to make
the best out of my projects when I was in middle school and high school. I have a child going
into third grade. That young reader back there. You probably heard her playing,but we are a
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growing community and our needs are growing and we definitely need to support our people with
life long education. I'm glad to see Kelly VonDeBur in the audience as well because she's
responsible for our school district. I can guarantee you there was not a single concerned parent
that didn't rip open their paper this past week to take a look at how District 112 compared to the
rest of our neighbors in education. We demand the highest of our schools and our teachers. We
demand it. Where's the support from the community. Our library is completely, it's not
effective. How can we sit there and demand all these things from our school board and our
teachers and our education system when we are unwilling to make the most basic investment in
lifelong learning, and that's an adequate library system. I've been following this for one year and
we're where we were at with the $1.5 million dollars. I implore you to make this a critical issue.
I would like to see us perhaps step out of the box a little bit. We've got some wonderful,
wonderful attributes in this community with the revitalization of the downtown area. With the
Arboretum. I have paid attention to some different libraries and different systems. I've been to
the Roseville library and seen what they've been able to do with the private industry and putting
a big Starbucks in. I think that there's so many things that we can do to really make this a
premiere attraction and a beneficial part of our community, but we need the support. We need
the support of the planning committee to suggest it to our city council. I thank you very much for
your time.
Jill Shipley: I'm Jill Shipley, 261 Eastwood Court in Chanhassen. Representative for the Carver
County Library Board. You talked,Kate you opened up the session talking about the '91
comprehensive plan. The library was addressed in that comprehensive plan, and it's one of the
view few things that we've not resolved yet. In the plan it says, Chanhassen would continue to
cooperate with the Carver County Library system to give library services to the community. The
city will work with the county to provide a new library location in Chanhassen when space needs
exceed availability of room in the City Hall expansion. We reached that point in 1991. You
know when we got started we hired a consultant who evaluated five different sites in the city. He
put together you know what would be the best spot. The best spot has a wonderful grocery store
sitting on it right now. And we're not going to be able to use that site. We did drawings. We
projected what this place would look like. We've got a library here of 20,000 square feet in this
drawing. And this one's 19,600 square feet. That was in `92-93. It just saddens me. It just
amazes me. It frustrates me that we've gone so far backwards in these years. Now I've met with
you before. I presented a lot of statistics and data to you. I've shown you graphs about the usage
of the library and how that has grown over the years. I've given you information about how our
citizens view the library. You have information in your comp plan about how our citizens love t
the park and recreation. 80% of them approve and love what we're giving them in park and
recreation. Well only 30% of our residents approve of what we're offering in library services.
That's a huge majority that we are not pleasing or reaching. And as I mentioned before
historically, the library is the most revered,most trusted,most respected government institution
there is. We're missing a tremendous opportunity to generate good support, good will,positive
feelings about our city in this regard. I would like to know if any of you have any questions of
me or any other data or information that you need before you seriously consider this issue. And
you know that I'm asking you to make a strong recommendation to Council that we move this up
to the year 2000 in the plan. And budget it at about$2.5 million. The $1.5 million that it shows
now is not just the library expansion. That's City Hall expansion. That's the new Council
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chambers. I'm scared to figure out how much of it would go to the library. We don't know. It
might be $500,000.00 and that's very,very inadequate. Are there any questions for me as your
representative or anything that you need answered.
Peterson: You mentioned the $2.5 million. That equates to how many square feet? 15,000?
Jill Shipley: That would be about 15,000 square foot library and would also allow for about
2,000 square feet for administrative purposes. It's the goal of the library board to move
administration into Chanhassen and make this more of our regional center instead of Chaska.
And we pulled the figures from the Savage library that just opened up in September of this year.
That's how much it cost them and they did exactly the same thing. Again, this is a minimum. A
minimum standard of what we need. There is a lot of opportunity available there to build more
of a regional center, although I heard you say tonight that you don't anticipate this really being a
regional center or area. I felt with the Byerly's and the Target that we were drawing people in
from all over the county. For that reason we could really justify doing an even larger regional
library here. But it's premature to discuss what we're going to build. We have to make the
decision to start planning to build.
Brooks: Do you have any proposed sites? Is there anywhere left in Chanhassen to build?
Jill Shipley: There's one site, the old Pauly's site. It's only 1.2 acres. It was, there were some
negatives to that site when the consultants evaluated it in '92 and that said it would probably only
accommodate about a 12,000 square foot facility. With no room for expansion. I'm not sure,
another site that was looked at is called Bowling Alley Drive between West 78`h and Great Plains
Boulevard. Now is that the Frontier Building that's being redone now?
Aanenson: ...additional property.
Jill Shipley: That was looked at as well. West 79th Street. I don't know if that that's little plot
of land between Applebee's and the bank. Again, that's a real small site. It's 1.2 acres and it
will not allow accessibility. These drawings show the library being extended out over Coulter
into the City Center Park. Again this is something that would need to be addressed by planning
commission or a task force. You know what do we build and where do we build it? But we've
got to get to that process first and that's where I urge you to strongly recommend that we start
addressing the process.
Peterson: Thank you.
Kelly VonDeBur: Good evening. Thank you for this opportunity to speak to you. My name is
Kelly VonDeBur and I'm the School Board chair for District 112. Our district has had a brief
time to review the comprehensive plan and of course our concern is with the growth that you are
projecting. A majority of that is residential homes and with those homes of course comes
children. Our district is planning in the future already that we need more schools. We do work
with four other cities, Carver,Victoria,Chaska and of course Chanhassen and in our part of the
school district...is planning on doubling. Our concern of course is in your plan there is no land
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Planning Commission Meeting - June 17, 1998
that is identified for school use. In working with the City of Chaska, they also are planning on
doubling and we are trying to work with them in looking for possibilities for land that will be
identified for schools. Our district's philosophy has been a neighborhood elementary school and
as you know that the two elementary schools in Chan currently are to capacity. We are working
with the City of Victoria. We tried to acquire land out there. Hopefully we can secure something
along those lines to guarantee a neighborhood school for Victoria. In your land use we kind of
looked at south of 212 might be an ideal spot.
Aanenson: Can I get clarification? We called your very early in the process,the school district
office to see if additional school sites were needed and we were told that another elementary
school...would not be built in Chanhassen. We were given that direction so that's why we did
not include it so.
Kelly VonDeBur: It was a surprise to us when we read it in the comprehensive plan.
Aanenson: Well because we called very early in the process and it clearly we stated our
comprehensive plan that another would not be built so that's the intent. Because we called right
away to see...and we were told that the next school would only take place in Victoria. There
would never be another one built in Chanhassen. We can get to who we talked to.
Kelly VonDeBur: Yeah, and we would like to work with,because in the letter that I'm going to
present to the commissioners, in addition to an elementary school, we foresee an additional for a
secondary schools, middle schools and high schools. As our community continues to grow,we
as a district have to decide on whether or not we're going to double the high school to put more
kids in there or do we want to have a two high school district and that's part of our big plan. And
probably if you had talked to the school district,you know we kind of go in little bits of plans.
We've tried to address the growth as it comes,just to be responsible to our taxpayers and perhaps
because your plan goes out to 2020, that's what...
Aanenson: Yeah, well I guess that's why we called because in 1991 we made a decision to
provide some land to...and we gave the ultimate population...
Kelly VonDeBur: Yeah, and I don't think our district plans on this growth either. I think Bluff
Creek we kind of said would take care of a lot of that,those needs too but as we see you going
south, and that's still in our school district, and Chaska's coming over,there's an opportunity.
We just wanted to be able to keep those options open. I know in Victoria, you know as the clock
ticks we lose land opportunities. Chaska has a majority of our buildings in their cities and
they're losing lots also. And of course our concern also is with the commercial opportunities for
the tax burdens too. As we grow and build buildings,we need for the taxpayers and ask them to
increase their property taxes and with the portion of commercial base in Chanhassen...the
homeowners and their property taxes, even though the city is planning on keeping theirs steady,
the only way we can build is by going to the taxpayers and of course the tax total property tax
will keep going up even though it's not the city's part. But so that's a concern that we have also.
It's in my letter, summarized and basically the two comments that I'd like to make is that we
recommend that somehow find some land use for schools. We can't identify of course I'm sorry
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
you know what they're going to be and we also recommend that future commercial and industrial
land use is planned to help increase the burden on the homeowners. We do have a collaborative
government collaborative that we have been meeting regularly. It's with the county,the four
cities within our school district. It's with the Arboretum and we have put together some
wonderful opportunities to collaborate on different governmental bodies. I don't know if you've
read anything about the Victoria project but we first saw a county, city and a school district kind
of collaborative so we're taking all...opportunities here too that we can all get together and do
some really wonderful things and the library's been part of that discussion too and it'd be a
wonderful opportunity to combine a school and you know a library or something like that so. I
can give you those letters and I encourage you, if there's any more information that you would
need of us, we have all our population projections and stuff like that that we'd be happy to
provide that with you or meet with you even further and kind of go over some of the issues too.
So thank you for the opportunity. I also included our district map because...where our buildings
are.
Vernelle Clayton: Good evening. I'm Vemelle Clayton. I live here in Chanhassen and I just
want to make a couple of points. I came here to make only one and as always you get caught up
in things and you think of other things to say. I kind of want to tie everything that I'm going to
say with a sort of theme song that I have, that I express from time to time but I think probably not
often enough and that is that I believe that the City needs a policy that is strictly adhered to that
states that whenever anything is done that affects land use, it must be accompanied by an
economic impact study. That will take some time. I think we have the folks that can do it. It's
not easy but I think there are some formats that can be put together so that we can get a really,
realistic evaluation of what the impact is. Whether it's measuring taxes or whatever but every
change in land use impacts our economy. We're planning something here and there are a lot of
comments that you're gearing it towards and I don't mean to sound that this is the only thing
you're thinking of but we are definitely thinking in this document of it's approval by the Met
Council. Various other governmental units. But guess what?We're going to be living under it
so I think everything needs to be looked at from the Chanhassen community's perspective. The
residents, how it affects our quality of life. There is something, although I have to say that
although I have, feel that I can take the opportunity to talk to you about this,I have not read all of
it. I do wonder though if there is a repeat of something that I think is very important that was
continued in the 1991 comp plan which was, as I think you all agree at that time, very well
thought out. Many of the things that they predicted and projected came through right on target.
In that comp plan it says the comprehensive plan goal is to provide a mixture of developments
assuring a high quality of life and a reliable tax base. I don't see,I haven't seen in what I've
looked at, much in this on a passion for a reliable tax base. We have in Chanhassen as passion
for parks. We have a commitment to parks. We have a passion for open space. A passion for
wetlands. In the process though of putting together all of that, we have not accompanied our
studies and our decisions with how it impacts our city economically. Now we're doing a
comprehensive plan and I want to go back to a reference that was contained in the staff report
when we did, I forget what the actual motion. We were speaking from the Council but it was a
change in the guide of use. We had to come in for a change in the comp plan and what staff
report said at that time was,based on staff review of other communities, it appears that the
comprehensive plan has an insufficient amount of commercial land at the current rate of
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
approximately 2% of the land area. A reasonable goal may be to provide between 3%and 5%
commercial land area at build out, which represents approximately 400 to 600 acres of
commercial land. Based on the discussions that I've heard tonight, we are barely at the low end
of that at 3%. At the same time as that,those meetings were going on,we, in preparing for those
meetings, obtained information from both the urban land institute and the American Planners
Association, both of which recommended 7.8%. Attached to the same report by staff was a
survey of communities under 100,000 and in that the average for those communities on the page
that listed them was 7%. I think we have a very serious problem here. We are,we cannot be, a
few years ago, let me just say,there were those among us who said well gee, we really like our
little downtown and we do. And there are a lot of people who have worked to make sure that we
have a nice downtown. One of those people is in this room tonight. But there were probably
only a half dozen people that really made it come about. We do want to protect it but we need to
expand it. We must expand it. As a part of the building it and moving people in, people that we
like to see, shopkeepers, we have gone from a regional draw that was only the Dinner Theater to,
and let me interrupt myself. I started to say a few years ago we started...community but we
didn't want to be a regional draw. But we have become, the same people that say we don't want
to be a regional draw say gee guys,they know that we work with you guys. Couldn't you work
on getting a Gap or somebody out here. We really need a Gap or something like that out here.
The same people say that. They want to be a regional draw. We can't become a 34,000 person
community, have the amount of commercial that we need to keep our tax base reasonable
without being some type of regional draw. It just can't be done. There's only so many, there are
only so many little dry cleaners and little pizza places and little things that are strip center
oriented, that you can have and it will not,you can't have 7%of those. Since the Dinner Theater
was here and since we've had this dialogue that we really don't want to be a regional draw,we
have brought in Byerly's, Target, major medical facilities,the Atrium...hotels, Applebee's and
Houlihan's. All of whom cannot succeed without a regional draw. We are a regional trade area.
We're a nice regional trade area. And we need to have a plan so we can continue to collect the
taxes that will support the library and support the new schools. Support the,pay for the parks.
Pay for the maintenance. Pay for the maintenance of the wetlands. Or we will not have a very
good quality of life in Chanhassen. So it speaks the quality of life and I think we need to take a
good hard look at where we're going. I thank you for your time.
Brad Johnson: I'm Brad Johnson. I live at 7425 Frontier Trail. I'm here tonight because I... I
appreciate the efforts of...comprehensive plan...and for your information I'm part of the
Southwest Coalition and Transportation. On the 212, on the Board of Directors of the 212... I'm
on the School Board. I'm a member of the... I'm a resident and we have so far developed, or are
in the process of developing for your community well over$100 million in property that's paid
by the...for what's probably going to happen. I think the school district pointed out to you that if
we do in fact plan on doubling our population,chances are, especially the single family homes,
we're going to double the number of kids that we have. Most of us have kids that are out here.
I'm here because the schools...that's why we live here. The kids can walk to school...the
balance goes for transportation, core services and...and that is to shift the tax burden from
industries to single family homes. If you realize it, or if you don't realize it,recently all of your
previous... referendums were based on tax capacity and the typical tax capacity at that time, in
1992, the tax capacity of an industrial, retail, commercial was, say in a round number,three times
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Planning Commission Meeting - June 17, 1998
and four times the tax capacity of the single family home. So the voters said let's tax you know
industry and all the referendum...do that kind of stuff based upon tax capacity. The legislature
over the last 5 years has shifted all that to market value, which means that industrial properties is
a 1:1 ratio instead of a 3:1 ratio. The second thing that happens then is that as you go out, most
of the costs of growth of schools, and human resources is going to be born by the single family
house unless you have a large commercial tax base. When you talk about quality of life, you can
talk about farms and what we see and not the...I'm just saying put this all in perspective... The
thing that, if you look at a community that has a low tax base and high, low tax base and good
schools, generally has a high commercial tax base. Okay... In Edina,people are happy living on
a 50 x 150 lot. It's a very nice neighborhood down there and the homes sell for, on those kind of
lots, for about $500,000.00. Because they have good schools, low taxes. If any of you have ever
bought a house and compared the taxes...Edina...Bloomington. Now Dave Peterson was going
to mention that we are, at the school district, a poor district... We're a poor district. We have to
import money from outside the city of Chanhassen to support our schools. And you're going to
hear a lot over time that we spend$1,000.00 to$2,000.00 less, if you can believe it, than
Hopkins, Edina, and Minnetonka. The reason we do that is we can't raise the money. I wouldn't
pay the taxes. My taxes are high. So as I said, as you look at the plan, I think Vernelle was kind
of saying that you have to look at the economic impact of what you do. You have to look out in
the future and ask what will this tax base...as we development some, the only resource we have
as a city to increase our tax base is to develop the land... A new thought is that 30% of the tax
base is the industrial. 30%of,that's just tax base. That doesn't mean land too. There's a
difference between tax base, so that's where the state is leading the whole new state policy of
30% for the single family homes that lowers your tax base and 30%multi-family. Now that's
where they're going by all these shifts that they've done and what they're doing, as I've said,
right or wrong. They're shifting your tax base to the single family homes. Industry wants it there
because if you raise taxes, they don't want to have to pay for schools. They don't want to have to
necessarily pay for all the parks and things they don't ever use... Currently in your current plan,
now you have 1%commercial, as Vernelle said. 3,4, 5, which we recommended. You've got
1% for multi-family,high density. 1%. The most efficient housing you have is high density,
multi-family. It uses less of your resources. Uses less roads. It uses less of everything when it
comes to the dollar. So we're saying that...aren't they Dave, is lateral. The cost for roads,
sewer,water. They run in lengths. The longer they are, the more they cost. Your density
allowance to...The density in those two units is...29 units per acre, as far as I know, and I
believe our Heritage is at 22 or 23 units per acre. So if you look at high density, the common
high density, realistic, upscale apartment complex is about 20 units per acre. And we've looked
at a number of them. And I'm not saying,these are not,by the way I'm not saying what to do.
I'm just giving you some...and I plan to write all this stuff down. The other thing is that as a
rule, Eden Prairie has 35,000 employees. 35,000 people. Chaska's goal is 9,000 households,
5,000 employees. About a 1 to 2 ratio. Our target is about a third of that. In other words we're
looking for 10,000 jobs, 25,000 people. I don't, what you could say is let's have 20,000 jobs, but
that's not what is in your plan. And to get 20,000 jobs you're going to have to be proactive. You
have to have a plan. We have a corridor called 212 that I personally think will happen because
there's a ton of people working on it. I've been at it for 10 years myself so,but I personally think
it will happen. If it doesn't happen,and you're right about Highway 5. With,we just had a
meeting. The County, as you prepare your transportation plan, I would certainly integrate it with
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
the County but they're not ready. They'll be ready in two months. They have a whole new,
comprehensive plan which simply says Highway 5 will always be clogged. Okay, you know.
That's part of life. If you look at Chanhassen, how do you get out of Chanhassen? You either go
by Highway 7 or you come down Highway 5 or that corridor,and we realize Highway 212...
What would that cost us, the County to upgrade that to four lane? It'd be expensive, right? And
that's the only way out so we have to kind of deal with those kind of issues. Highway 212
currently, I visited with MnDOT lately. The current theory behind the development of corridors
like that, which they're redoing in Richfield. There was a good article in the paper the other day.
They had ring road concept. You don't necessarily have a lot of access points on a major
highway. You have 1 or 2 and then you ring that with a high service road like they're doing in
Richfield. Now to do what Richfield and Bloomington is talking would cost you a fortune,
because they have to go back and recoup, and that corridor could be an ideal location for office...
To get our industrial built out there, which we have sufficient land today...because we don't have
any transportation. People just don't want to come out here. Because they can't get their
employees to drive on Highway 5 and it's a real interesting problem. With the new addition of
Highway 5, we're going to eliminate three stop lights. So we don't have to stop now until you
get to Highway 4, but that's going to be very painful for the next 3 to 4 years. So I would say if
you look at your corridor of the Highway 212 corridor,those...think tank and MnDOT is saying
about that, that is your highest and best use value land. And I would set aside...for office.
That's where your commercial can be. I'm not talking retail. I'm just talking retail.
Brooks: 212 isn't on mandate's plans for 20 years.
Brad Johnson: Then don't use the land until then. Just zone it... Okay,because that's your
highest and best use land. Now you don't have to listen to me. Okay. Right now there's a
movement afoot to see that Highway 5 happens in the year 2005 so the completion of Highway 5
to Highway 4 is going to create a tremendous problem... And we'll be back with... But all I'm
saying is those are ideas. You've heard about the library. Things that probably are not proactive.
I have no use, no interest other than I'm on the Highway 212. I am concerned about your tax
base. I am concerned about your schools. And I know you're all...but there's some magic
numbers...jobs per household. Tax base issues. What is your future tax base? What is the
- reaction? Victoria has stopped all growth until they understand totally every move they make
from an economic point of view. Because they're so frighten...all that kind of stuff that they
don't have... Thank you for your time. I'll write this down...
Peterson: Thank you. Other questions, comments? Seeing none, may I have a motion to close
the public hearing and a second please?
Conrad moved,Joyce seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed.
Peterson: Well. I think we've, as I stated earlier, I think we've taken each of these sections and
probably summarized most of the thoughts that we had individually. I'll go around now and ask
for any other summary comments that each of you may have and... LuAnn, anything you would
like to add or...discussed already or brought up in the public hearing?
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Sidney: Well I think I'd like to make a comment about the request for improving the Chanhassen
library...asset to this community and I'd like to see something done, and I don't know what
formula it would be...library. I don't know what that means. Possibly building a primary
location...but I do agree that it's an important asset for the community. It's an important...
Villages on the Pond. A place for people to get together...amphitheater but something where
people can talk and get to know each other. So I guess I'll...
Peterson: Kevin.
Joyce: Discussing the library aspect, you know I tried to fmd a down side to all of it...library
would be a good idea. I learned the word cohort in the demographics. The two demographics as
far as that, the largest is at 39 to 44. The second largest is 0 to 5 so there's a lot of kids that are in
our community right now. Libraries and kids I think are a good combination. So I think, what
I'd like to direct the City Council to do is to make a stand on this. Either say this is, we're going
to plan this out and we're going to do it or not. ...why not they plan to do it. But I think it's an
issue. I think they have to, I think right now we're kind of in a gray area where we have I guess
an allocation of funds six years from now and why is it six years from now? And I don't think
anybody really knows. So they either have to decide to reallocate funds and explain,and do that
or explain why they won't so I think I'm sure they will,because people, if they're interested in
the library, they're going to come out full force and make them come up with some answers. So
yeah, I think a library would be nice...but as far as the comprehensive plan. You know we got 7,
8, yeah 7 sections and the only one that I, the only part that I was nervous about, or kind of
concerned about is what Brad and Vernelle was talking about. Was that commercial aspect and I
just think it's something that has to be addressed. I don't think that we have to go through, I
think 1% is one extreme and 7% is the other extreme on commercial. I think there could be a
median there so I think we're going to delegate some sort of land for that. I want to preserve the
downtown. I really don't want to live in Eden Prairie. I don't want to live in Bloomington. You
know I live in Chanhassen. I kind of like what Chanhassen has, but we have to pay for it and I'm
willing to pay for it to a point but yeah. I think commercial,I think we're...what we've got and I
don't know if we can push this comprehensive plan draft forward without it. I'd like to hear
what the other commissioners say. I've got to leave in 5 minutes...but that's my discussion on it.
I think that's, if there's a burning issue in this, I think that that's really something that the City
Council has to,before they pass this through,they've got to get their arms around that and be
comfortable with it. That's all. I mean I could see tabling this for, step back for a second just on
that issue but I could present this forward to City Council if everyone else felt comfortable with
it.
Peterson: Alison.
Blackowiak: Yeah, look at those three issues that we heard about in the public hearing. The
library. I certainly agree that something has to be done. I think that the City Council does need
to take a stand, like Kevin said. They have to decide what's going to happen and when it can
happen. I don't think that right now, I mean we're looking at combining it with City Hall, that
we're getting the best possible use. I think we're cutting off a lot of potential opportunities. I
think the library could be looked at, viewed as a stand alone issue. A building that stands alone.
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Not necessarily as a part of City Hall. I had conversations with Jill and I said I think a lot of
people have a problem with seeing City Hall expansion. I think a lot of people would have less
problem with building a library. I think when you combine the two that you get some resistance.
I think by itself it might have a better chance of moving forward and that's my personal opinion.
But I do think it has to be a separate issue. There could be some juggling but again that's City
Council's job. It's not our job to juggle funds. I think they need to take a look, hard look at it
and decide where the money can come from. You know could it be part of the community
center? You know could it be a stand alone building? Could some of the capital improvement
items, line items that are in there now be pushed out and the library moved forward? I don't
know, and again that's City Council's job. So I hope they take a good look at that. After District
112, I was surprised to hear that they might want a school within our boundaries. I thought you
chin was on the floor Kate.
Aanenson: We had communication with them several times. I'm shocked. I didn't...
Blackowiak: Yeah, so that was a real surprise to me because it was always my opinion that
Chanhassen has it's two elementary schools. There was never going to be second high school
and that's just kind of how it was. So it was rather interesting to hear that. I don't know if you
want to, if we need to see it again. I mean this...issue now and I'll talk a little bit about
commercial but, there are opportunities I think for public space down south. By 212 or the
potential 212 that maybe it's appropriate for a school so I don't know if we need to see it again at
the Planning Commission but it certainly needs to be...needs to be addressed in the
comprehensive plan in order to take care of that. Finally about the commercial base. It is a big
issue. We certainly need to take a...go ahead and do it now. One idea that came to me when I
was listening to comments was, some type of a staging of commercial, similar to what we do in
the MUSA. For example, we have a downtown. I think the downtown needs to be preserved. I
think we have to make sure that that is a vibrant, going concern. We've got Villages which has
another retail area. Okay, fine. Fill that up. Build that out. Then come and talk to me. Show
me that you've got another area that might be a potential. You know and I'll look at area by area
but I don't think, I think it would be premature for us to open everything up to commercial,just
like it would be premature to totally open up the whole city to MUSA. We have to do it slowly,
in stages. Making sure things are taken care of in an orderly fashion. I guess that's, those are my
comments about the public hearing portion and overall I don't know if we need to see it again. I
would be comfortable sending it forward with comments. I don't know what would come from
two more weeks of review by us. So I will go either way.
Peterson: Allyson.
Brooks: Well I support the idea that Chanhassen needs a library. I mean I said it before. We
spend a lot of time worrying about being able to exercise on trails and then we don't worry about
our minds. It's a balance issue that was talked about. I would recommend that we think about
possibly putting forward a motion to a minimum ask the City Council to put forward a task force
to look into the issue. And do things that way. I don't know if any of you are interested in doing
that tonight but that maybe would force their hand a little bit. I mean they may, that's what may
be needed right now is a task force to get going to look at building a new library, and I agree with
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Alison. It would probably be best as it's own space. But if we want to have a premiere school
system, then we'd better have a premiere library to go with it. The commercial issue. I
understand the need for more commercial zoning. On the other hand my quandary is if we
rezone, then we may have to rezone areas that are going to take away from our downtown and I
think everyone has worked really hard to get a downtown for Chanhassen. The 212 corridor,
until I see a program, I don't believe it. I mean I think that's great that we want to, I don't think
zoning commercial down at 212 is going to force anybody's hand to do 212 and all you're going
to do is take away from the commercial area that we have here. So I don't,you know I guess my
issue on the commercial is, I think the way we have things zoned should be fine. And for
transportation, again as I said before, I really think we should consider Trunk Highway 5 as a
principle arterial and force the issue. I mean maybe by going and saying look, we want six lanes
on Trunk Highway 5 and that's the end of the story, it will force people to come out here and
revisit and sort of come at it sort of reverse psychology. Other than that I thought the
comprehensive plan was well written, except I agree with Ladd. The transportation part probably
needs to be less technical and the advertisements need to go away. But I agree with Alison. I
don't think we need to table it. I think we could put it forward with comments.
Peterson: Ladd.
Conrad: Here we go. Well this is a big deal. I've gone through these before. This is sort of
final. In other years you do it,we say well, we'll do it in 10 years because we haven't filled up.
So the important thing that we do here,this is more important than any of the previous 23
meetings. Combined. Because what you're doing is you're forecasting where you're going. It's
the most important thing you can tell future people that are moving here. Future companies that
are considering coming here. It's not let's wait and do something later on. That's what makes
them mad. So the plan is really the forecast and once, right or wrong, it's the thing that we're
doing right. It's telling people what we are doing and if they don't want to move here, fine. We
told them what we're doing. But this seems sort of final. And we can revise it,but it's hard to
revise. It's extremely difficult to revise. I'm real disappointed. I'm extremely pleased with the
comments we got tonight. Good comments. Just great. ON the other hand, the publicity we got
from the Villager for this is non-existent and they did do some things before but unfortunately
this is the lowest turnout I've ever seen by a significant amount and we're filling up Chanhassen.
This is our plan to build out the city. It's done. It's over folks. And again that's sort of an over
statement but it's 2020. If I saw 2010 on here,we could pass this thing through because we've
had 10 years to make up for any mistakes...forecast not that far. You can't do it in private
industry. I don't know how we can do it here but it does say 2020 plan. So again I'm real
disappointed in our community participation. It's like they don'•t care. But we also didn't do a
very good job getting the word out through the Villager. I think we should have made a, there's
something we should be doing and I'm not exactly sure what I want to do. One it's easier
without people here. It's easier to make things happen the way we want it. But on the other
hand, this is their chance to participate in the community and that's so important. I'm rambling a
little bit but one, that was important. The transportation section is redundant. We said that. I
think we should take a good look at the library. I don't know how it's funded. I don't know
where the money's coming from. I don't know if it's all city support or county. I think we
should look at that. I think a case was made pretty well. The point is not whether, a part of the
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
land use plan, I like how it looks. It makes a lot of sense. Yet it doesn't look to me like it's
generating the revenue that we thought, that it probably should and I have said that a long so I
don't think I'm saying a new signal here. I couldn't let this go. I think the City Council has to
make a decision and I don't think I need to send up the whole comprehensive plan to them right
now. I think there should be a special meeting where we go in with them and we say folks.
Here's what it looks like to us. And maybe the staff makes some,you know I made some global
statements that are obviously wrong tonight but I certainly think, I need to know what the
implications are in terms of our tax base. I just need to know that. Otherwise I don't, I couldn't
approve this at all. To say it looks good. It's pretty on paper and we put the right things next to
each other. That's great and we did yet on the other hand,I don't have a clue if it can support
double the population. I just don't and I think somebody's got to buy off on that, that we don't
care. Or we're willing to say, residents are going to pay for it. The urgency in the transportation,
the urgency for Highway 5 I think is a big deal. It's got to be promoted. But I'll, not only
promoted but highlighted in this. It's just got to be make or break. It's a big, it's a major issue in
there. Now I'm going to give you two zingers here. Number one,I won't vote for it if somebody
makes a motion tonight. I think we should really work with the City Council simply on the tax
implications on this so if they feel that they're comfortable with it and city staff can give a good
reason that it will be kind of close to generating the revenue that we may need for 34,000 people,
then that's okay. I'll go with it. Number two. We're really bad in terms of developing sense of
community in this city. Take a look around us and this is my pet little deal. You know where I'm
going on this. Excelsior for as impoverished a city as they are, at least they have a downtown
park with an amphitheater. You go to Chaska. At least they have a downtown park with a
community center. You go to Eden Prairie. At least they have an amphitheater built into the side
of the hill where they can do more than play sports. We don't have a public library that's really
up to speed. We really don't, we're really not looking at what the community is,this is a build
out we're talking about. This is, we're done. We did, we're allocating land and we haven't
allocated land for some of these things so what we're going to have is a lot of nice baseball fields
here but what really, we really haven't looked at what the community needs in the year 2020 in
terms of how the community gets along. So that is a specific issue of me and maybe it's not an
amphitheater. But it is a place where people can meet and greet and it's not, it's not a place out
in front of City Hall with a little water fountain. And it's not a ball playing field with some
bleachers in it. That's not it. We're missing the point. We're missing, pretty soon what we
moved here for we'll start looking for something else and we're not going to have it. I'm willing
to stop growth in Chanhassen. I think it's stupid that we're sitting here saying we're going to
flood the highways and just do it as planning commissioners. You're planning? You're not
planning. You're flooding the school system. You're increasing taxes. You know the highways
are going to be bad and we're going to say, well let's just do it. Huh. That doesn't make sense.
Brooks: It's called sprawl.
Conrad: Stop it. You can. You can stop it. Brad said, you can stop some of this stuff. You can,
you don't have to do it tonight. You don't have to send it on. I won't vote for this. The park and
rec is obviously very concerned with athletic stuff. I've talked to people and I've talked to
people for 5-6 years about getting some place where they can meet and greet and it's not there.
And it's, I talk to City Council people and they've got other things to do. They're doing other
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
things. It's not an important issue. Park and rec, it's not a high priority for them. I think that's a
major mistake. We're putting all this money into ballfields and I do like some of the stuff that
we're doing by the way in our parks. The passive parks. There's some really nice stuff that
we're doing. You know I'm real pleased with but in terms of how we're support our needs in a
few years, it's not there. It's all one sided. So I won't vote for this at all. I think there's major
issues in front of you and you've just got to look at them and if you say hey,we can tweak it here
and we can find a spot for a school. Yeah you can but I think, on the other hand, we, I think we
need another piece of information coming back. At bare minimum I'll fight my own little deal
on the amphitheater. But at bare minimum we'd better find out if we're a self supporting, self
sustaining community with the way we've allocated our resources. You've just go to know.
We've got to force staff to give it their best shot at least. And we've got to know what that's
going to do to the schools and we've got to find a place for those schools. So anyway, what am I
saying? I'm saying right now we should table this. I'm saying right now we should meet at bare
minimum with the City Council in a meeting to have staff and us present to them the land use
plan and then maybe have staff pull together some numbers and maybe it's not as bad as I say,
but at least we'll all know it's not as bad as what I'm forecasting in terms of the implications of
the lack of tax support for 34,000 population. So that's what I suggest we do. There are other
issues that staff can be working on in the meantime. I think we heard several of them tonight so I
don't think that's going to slow down working on some of the parts of the comprehensive plan.
Brooks: How soon would we be able to have a work session with the City Council?
Aanenson: Just if I could add one thing. 75%of the population will be in the current MUSA
line. 75%. I think people have this notion that there's a vast amount of vacant land south of
Lyman. It is not there. We put the Bluff Creek overlay and saw how many wetlands and slopes.
The majority of the population, the majority of the growth is in the current MUSA. And when
we looked at the land use, when we did Highway 5 we had a series,we had the task force. We
considered the land use designation for everything south of Lyman. We met individually with all
the property owners south of Highway 5. A lot of those people have had their issues addressed
because the comprehensive plan, the land use designation was done a couple years ago. So a lot
of those people aren't here because they have been met with,understood when we adopted that
map during the Bluff Creek process. I think some of those people have fallen off. I understand
what you're saying about the tax implications. I just want to make sure that that was understood.
That the land use component was handled in two different processes. A lot of that has been
addressed by the underlying property owners. Some of them are concerned about when they'll be
brought into the MUSA,which is a separate issue. As far as the designation, I don't think that
there's a lot of issues with property owners out there. What their property's guided. Certainly
they have a issue with the use as far as tax base but we can go round and round and round on the
Council's discussion. I'm not sure we could ever resolve that but I'm sure we can look at that.
We'll just try to get a work session done. It goes back to quality of life issue. And projecting
when you want to put commercial down there. Whether a car dealership goes down there
tomorrow or, it's a complex issue.
Peterson: My comments are not dissimilar to the ones I made earlier. I have a...concern about
moving too fast with the growth. That the transportation will not keep up with it. That
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
unfortunately though we say stop the growth until we can figure out what we're doing,people
west of us may not necessarily feel that way and the traffic will in itself become worse. I too
heard your comments early on Kate and Bob about, gee you know we're kind of stabbing in the
dark about where these commercial numbers and tax base numbers are going to come from and
that bothers me. And I just heard your comments that you probably can't get any more succinct
than you are.
Aanenson: No, what I'm saying is that there are people that are willing,people that choose to
live in certain communities that want that lifestyle. People choose to live in Edina for that
lifestyle. People have chosen to live in Chanhassen. I think what we're hearing is, do people
understand what that implication of choosing that lifestyle means. That's what I'm hearing. But
there are people that want to make that choice to live here. People move here from Edina.
People moved here from Bloomington specifically for a certain lifestyle. Those are the residents
that we, as a part of the hearing process that come to you and say we don't want this sort of
neighborhood. We want this certain thing. What I'm hearing is that there's people that say, they
need to be educated on what those implications are. There will always be people that are willing
to pay that price that live in a, that will live in a community...and say we don't want those things
in our neighborhood. We're willing to pay a little bit more. And that's what I'm hearing you
say. You want to make sure the Council and you understand what those...are.
Conrad: Just ask for it up front. Kate like I said before, I like how we've put the land there and I
think we did a, I like where the different colors went.
Aanenson: Right,yeah. But do people understand the implications?
Conrad: And I think we did a good job in bringing people in and we heard them. We did a nice
job. It's as good a job as we've ever done. The problem is, I want to make sure that everybody, I
don't want to, I want to address this right now. So when this moves up to City Council, and
they're talking about all the other things, I want them to really understand that they've decided
that they've given us the go ahead that they're comfortable tax wise with what we just did. Not
color wise but tax wise and they should make that, they got elected, 2 or 3 of them got elected on
- a, they were running on no tax increase.
Peterson: And over the years we have been asked to rezone taking away commercial tax base.
And that's probably been the biggest struggle that we've made. Where are we going to replace
it? I think Kate, if we can get, and I think I'm going with the idea that Ladd brought up. If we
can get together...for a reasonably brief period of time. Just talk through some of the major
issues we talked about tonight and how they affect the quality of life within Chanhassen so that
we as a commission and they as a council are on the same page. I think it'd be a great advantage.
I think there are many things that were brought up...by fellow commissioners and by some of the
public speakers tonight...that I think can be integrated into the plan and make it a better plan. I
don't think that's going to hold it back. What I think in my mind is really holding it back is that,
it just doesn't paint the picture that I want it to paint. That we have a clear and succinct view of
how we want to go. Now maybe we weren't listening well enough when you made your
presentation. Maybe we didn't read it in the same manner as it was intended to be written. But I
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
think, I think the picture's foggy and I think we have the opportunity to clear it up. And as
important as this is, I agree. Let's try to get a work session on it.
Brooks: Should we make a motion that regard then?
Peterson: Yeah, I think... In closing though, the library too I think is a critical thing that I don't
believe Council has given the proper attention. I think it's... I think we're thinking inside the
box. Whether that's with just a library and/or a community gathering spot. I've always
concurred with Ladd. Whether it's an amphitheater or something,we have not thought outside
the box. And this is our opportunity to do so and I won't let it go. So anyway, I think we should
make a motion that we,we're done with the public hearing. Let's get through with this and then.
Brooks: Yeah, and then I'll make a motion on the library when I'm done with this. So I don't
know if I can do it this way. I move the Planning Commission table approving the
comprehensive plan until such time we meet with the City Council to review issues. To review
the plan.
Conrad: I second that.
Peterson: There's a motion and a second. Any discussion?
Brooks moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission table action on the 2020
comprehensive plan until such time as the Planning Commission and City Council get meet
to review the issues. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Brooks: Okay I'd like to make another motion on the library. I'd like to move that the Planning
Commission recommend to the City Council that they immediately establish a task force to
revisit the issue of the library.
Conrad: Yeah, I'd second that.
Peterson: It's been moved and seconded. Any more discussion?
Brooks moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommend that the City
Council take immediately action to establish a task force to revisit the issue of a library in
the city of Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Peterson: You wanted to say something or did we answer your question?
Jill Shipley: Thank you for making the motion to establish a task force and I think that's a good
first step. I think you need to take stronger action though and I hope that you will do that. The
By-laws of the Planning Commission state that you shall prepare a comprehensive plan. The
comprehensive plan doesn't cover a task force. It lists items that need to be done in a time frame
in which they need to be done. If the comprehensive plan goes forward with the library in 2005,
the task force can be given the charge to determine what's going to be built in the year 2005. I
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
just, I want to make sure we cover all our bases and that we are addressing this immediately. We
have a very great sense of urgency on this issue so I want to make sure that we do everything in
our power to make a strong recommendation as possible.
Brooks: Without, I guess what...we don't even have a site for a library and a task force is sort of
the people that can look for a site and the needs and what size we want and how much it's really
going to cost and then push it through. I hate to,personally I hate to make a recommendation for
a few million, unless something must be done now,when we don't have an exact idea of what we
want. I know that's what we've done before and it didn't work but I still think if you go to the
City Council without a good conceptual plan and a place, it gets very nebulous.
Jill Shipley: I agree but is not the comprehensive plan, the goal of that more to set our vision and
not determine the monies involved in this? The vision's the route we want to take in providing
for this?
Blackowiak: It's both.
Peterson: There's a delicate balance between how much we as commissioners,do we actively
help staff develop the library? Do we actively help place the next lift station to the point where
we have the, where we draw the line and take steps...
Jill Shipley: Yeah, the Council will have a new election again this year. So if we establish a task
force who determines what we want to build and where we want to build,and the approximate
size but we get new members on Council who come in and look at a comprehensive plan that
says we're not going to do this until 2005. I think we can shoot ourselves in the foot on that one.
So I think we can do it together.
Brooks: I don't think the plan, I don't read the plan as saying that we can't have a library until
2005. I just see it, it's programmed for 2005 but it could be kicked up earlier. I'm not sure that,
how set in stone that really is.
Jill Shipley: I heard say that it's so final. And that we've got to do the right thing here today.
Aanenson: No, it's tabled.
Conrad: At least, yeah we tabled it. At least you're on the board. My project's not even on the
board. And you only need a, I think a lot of acres but this is, big acre deal with big parking.
You're the only one that was individualized here as a separate motion. I think you should be kind
of happy.
Jill Shipley: Oh I'm very thankful and I said that. The first thing I came up here but when you
go back and untable it and relook at this,please consider getting more specific.
Brooks: Well I think we can bring it up to the City Council. I think it's probably in our work
session something that should be brought up.
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Planning Commission Meeting- June 17, 1998
Peterson: Of any item on the comprehensive plan,the capital budget is looked at annually. It is
truly looked at annually and adjusted annually so I think you have...
Brooks: Make it an election issue.
Jill Shipley: Thank you for your support.
OLD BUSINESS:
Aanenson: We have a meeting on the golf course the first Wednesday of July. So that will be
back on. As soon as they get everything in. We...a meeting that week but I need to keep them
within the 120 days of their review so that will be on July ls`. We did have a productive meeting.
They're still trying to resolve some issues.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Conrad noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting
dated June 3, 1998 as presented.
Conrad moved, Brooks seconded to adjourn the meeting. The meeting was adjourned at
9:55 p.m.
Submitted by Kate Aanenson
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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