The URL can be used to link to this page

04-05-89 Agenda and Packet j AGENDA CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION WEDNESDAY, APRIL 3 , 1989 , 7 : 30 P.M. CHANHASSEN CITY HALL, 690-, COULTER DRIVE CALL TO ORDER PUBLIC HEARINGS NEW BUSINESS OLD BUSINESS ** ITEM DELETED - SCHEDULED FOR APRIL 19 , 1989, MEETING ** 1 . Site Plan Review for Revision of North Parking Lot Improvements, City of Chanhassen. APPROVAL OF MINUTES ITEMS FROM COMMISSIONERS ITEMS FROM PLANNING STAFF 2 . Comprehensive Plan Update - Worksession. 3 . Highway 101 Preliminary Alignment Study. ADJOURNMENT — / Van DorErr - = Hazard Stallings. Mclrlects•Engtrsrs•Ramos MEMORANDUM TO: Planning Commission and Staff FROM: Mark Koegler DATE: March 27 , 1989 SUBJECT: Comprehensive Plan Over the course of the past two years , the Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan has been in the process of being updated . To date, draft materials have been completed and reviewed for every section except the implementation section. The passage of time and interest in various issues has resulted in the need to review several items with the Planning Commission prior to assembling a full final draft of the document . After a review of these items , a full draft will be prepared in the next few weeks for further review by the Commission. Tentative plans call for a public hearing to be held on the document in June. Text and background materials on each of the discussion topics are enclosed . 1 . GOALS AND POLICIES The goals and policies section of the plan has been revised to incorporate the Commission ' s previous review comments . The new text which is identified as Exhibit 1 consists of 12 pages . Please note any further comments or corrections that you feel are appropriate to this text. 1 3030 Harbor Lane North BIdg.II, Suite 104 Minneapolis. MN. 55447-2175 612/553-1950 EXHIBIT 1 GOALS AND POLICIES A comprehensive plan is designed to serve as a guide for the local decision making process . The development of goals which identify desired qualities of a community is a key component of any — comprehensive planning effort . Goals are typically defined as values that have been reduced to a number of broad statements concerning what is desired . After goals are identified , policies — are developed in support of goal statements . Policies are goals which have been reduced to a number of specific components stated in a manner permitting appraisal of progress achieved toward given — goals . In order to establish goals for the City of Chanhassen , a review of current problems and needs was conducted . After problems and — needs were reviewed , unique characteristics of the community were identified . The combination of this information led to the formulation of the goals and policies found in this plan . — The goals and policies established as part of this study are be important because they serve as a pattern for specific recommendations that will be offered . The comprehensive plan is — designed to be a flexible tool that can be adapted to new policies to attain stated goals . COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT GOAL Chanhassen is a high amenity residential community — containing large amounts of open space , natural tree cover , wetlands and variable topography . It is the City ' s overall goal that these qualities should be protected and preserved as the community develops in the — future . NATURAL RESOURCES — GOAL Promote rational planning which correlates growth and the preservation of a high quality environment . — POLICIES All site plans and other development proposals should be reviewed by city staff to determine impacts upon natural systems . Reviews shall include but not be limited to — soils , vegetation , drainageways and topography . Where applicable , all development plans should be — reviewed by the watershed district or other agencies to ensure compatibility with area wide standards . Local drainage plans should be coordinated with those of the watershed districts . 1 2 - GOAL The City of Chanhassen should provide an environment that exhibits concern for natural environmental systems and promotes overall respect for the land . Development should provide for the needs of man in a manner compatible with those of nature . POLICIES Encourage land uses that are compatible with the community ' s overall drainage system. For example , floodplains that provide seasonal water storage can be used for passive recreation and wildlife habitat . Water and storm drainage systems should be routed and constructed to minimize permanent damage to natural resources . Public and private surface water drainage systems should be properly maintained . Future developments should be designed so that they are sensitive to natural features . Features that are determined to have significant cultural , historical and/or archaeological values should be preserved . Support state and federal programs for the reduction of pollutants and the upgrading of the natural environment . When storm water runoff storage sites are unavailable , controls should be provided so that downstream peak flow is no greater than can be handled by downstream drainage features . Construction activity will be permitted in floodplains , shorelands and wetlands consistent with adopted ordinances and standards . The City will continually strive to improve air and water quality. All applicable federal and state programs will be utilized to achieve this purpose . Improve environmental quality by preserving the scenic and recreational aspects of lakes , rivers and streams and provide opportunities for public use where appropriate . Prime agricultural areas should be protected until such time as urban development is appropriate . The conversion of agricultural uses to urban uses should be governed by the provisions and restrictions of Chanhassen ' s Comprehensive Plan . 2 3 Where appropriate , Chanhassen will cooperate with area farmers in protecting their land from premature urban development through the provisions of the Metropolitan Agricultural Preserves Act . POLICIES Urban development and agricultural practices that minimize pollution and siltation should be encouraged . Such practices may include but not be limited to : - Use of biodegradable , non-polluting chemical fertilizers , pesticides and ice melting chemicals . - - Soil erosion practices that minimize erosion . - Management of liquid and solid waste disposal systems so as to preclude contamination of nearby surface water resources and underlying ground water supplies . - Approval of grading , filling and excavation plans to ensure that erosion and siltation are — minimized . Utilizing local , state and federal resources where appropriate , the city should operate diseased tree — removal programs to assist in curtailing tree diseases . Construction plans and specifications should contain — provisions for adequate on and off site protection of existing vegetation . Development projects should minimize the damage to areas of vegetation and wildlife habitat . Development should be prohibited in areas where soil — conditions , ground water levels , drainage , rock formations or topography create hazards to the property or adjacent properties or to the health and safety of the — inhabitants . The City of Chanhassen will discourage the alteration of steep slope areas in excess of 18%. HOUSING GOAL To provide housing opportunities for all residents consistent with the identified community development goal . 3 4 - POLICIES Existing housing within the city should be maintained and improved and revitalization of older developed areas should be encouraged . The City of Chanhassen will provide adequate land for projected housing growth consistent with regional policies . The City of Chanhassen will promote housing opportunities for persons of a range of incomes . Efforts should be made to provide subsidized housing where needed to provide alternatives to market rate housing . Plans and ordinances for the City of Chanhassen should ensure that adequate amounts of land are designated to accommodate projected residential growth . Consistent with established housing goals , the city should promote the use of applicable programs designed to reduce land costs for developers of low and moderate income housing . The City of Chanhassen will cooperate with other governmental units and public agencies to streamline reviews required for residential development to avoid inflating the cost of housing due to unnecessary delays in the review process . Subsidized housing should be given equal site and planning considerations to non-subsidized housing units and should not be placed in inferior locations . The city will promote the construction of senior citizen housing in locations convenient to shopping and medical services . Housing development techniques such as PUD ' s , cluster development , innovative site plans and innovative building designs are encouraged to conserve energy and natural resources . Property tax policies that encourage the maintenance and rehabilitation of Chanhassen ' s existing housing stock should be encouraged . The city supports non-discrimination in the sale and rental of housing units . Citizen participation in developing plans and implementing housing programs is encouraged . 4 5 RECREATION GOAL The City of Chanhassen will provide recreational open space areas which reasonably meet the outdoor recreation needs of the community ' s residents . — POLICIES Provide park and open space facilities that emphasize accessibility and use by Chanhassen residents . Coordinate the expenditure of local funds for recreational open space with the schedules for the provision and development of other municipal services . — Coordinate the efforts and funding resources of the city , federal and state governments to acquire and develop — elements of the local recreational open space system . The city should update and adopt the recreation open space element of the comprehensive plan at least every — five years . Annually , an assessment of programs , identified needs and capital improvements should be conducted . — Negotiations for the acquisition of recreational open space areas should be based upon appraisals by qualified _ appraisers . Reasonable efforts should be made to acquire land by negotiated purchase before utilization of the power of eminent domain . The location , design , use and impact of recreation facilities should be compatible with and enhance the environment of both the site and surrounding area . — Abandoned right-of-ways should be preserved for public use . Encourage the cooperative effort between the school system and the city in the acquisition , development and usage of recreational lands and facilities . — Provide open space areas which assist in the conservation and protection of environmentally sensitive areas . — Provide a recreation system that integrates man made facilities into the natural environment of the area . Develop a park and open space plan which is consistent with and compliments the overall land use plan for Chanhassen . — 5 6 - Provide a system of neighborhood parks which are centrally or conveniently located with the area they serve and where possible , are integrated with school facilities . Encourage citizen participation in the planning and development of all park and open space facilities . Continue to seek assistance from community groups in the planning and financing of recreation improvements . Provide a balanced park system which includes neighborhood parks , community parks , special use facilities , schools and private developments , all interconnected by a linear trail network . Neighborhood parks should be located in areas that do not require the crossing of major thoroughfares by small children . Recreation facilities and programs should be designed to serve all age groups and levels of physical ability . UTILITIES GOAL As part of the planning process , the city will prepare a comprehensive plan , implementation program and capital budgets for all applicable utility systems . These will include municipal sanitary sewer , water , storm water , electricity , natural gas and communication lines . POLICIES Utility plans shall be coordinated with city plans for land use , transportation , open space and community facilities . Wherever practical , utility plans should be coordinated with park plans for linear open space . Local utility plans will be consistent with the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission ' s regional utility plans . Regional plans should ensure adequate utility service to accommodate Chanhassen ' s future growth . GOAL Provide public sanitary sewer , water , storm water , electrical , natural gas and communications service to all urban residential developments and commercial and industrial land uses . POLICIES Plan and provide an efficient local sewage collection system linked to regional facilities . Ensure that local sewer investments are coordinated with metropolitan sewer system plans . 6 7 Utility systems within the City of Chanhassen should be based upon : — - Maximum protection of health and safety . - Adequate and efficient service . - Fair and equitable distribution of benefits and costs . All public and private utilities within the city should be installed in a coordinated manner and in accordance with the sequencing and level of service indicated in the comprehensive plan . Maintain existing utilities so that they can continue to support existing development and redevelopment in the urban service area . Operate an ongoing system of inspection and monitoring of local sewer , water and storm water systems . All urban density development shall be served by storm water drainage systems consistent with adopted city engineering standards . All new utilities should be placed underground . Where overhead utility lines are necessary , their design and alignment should be compatible with existing development — or future development as identified in the land use plan . GOAL In the General Rural Use Area , Chanhassen will prohibit — premature extension of utility systems . System extensions must be consistent with the comprehensive sewer policy plan . POLICIES On-site septic systems must be compatible with adopted city policies and ordinances . The city should provide informational assistance to septic system users on the maintenance and operation of systems . The pumping of sludge from septic systems will be discharged into the metropolitan sanitary system only in locations designated by the city and the MWCC . — Non-urban land uses should be served by properly constructed and operated septic and well water systems . — 7 8 - LAND USE GOAL Create a land development pattern which fulfills social and economic needs while enhancing and preserving human and natural resources . POLICIES Continually update the comprehensive plan to assist in the decision making process . Establish and enforce standards concerning existing and proposed land uses . Maintain suitable dwelling densities to avoid congestion and overcrowding and to help ensure the availability of an adequate supply of light , air and privacy for each property . Anticipate future needs for development areas , open space , roads , parks , schools , utilities , etc . Establish a land use pattern which reflects compatibility with adjoining developments and adjoining communities . Seek to minimize existing incompatible land uses and utilize sound planning to prevent future incompatibilities . Residential areas should be located and designed in a manner which protects them from the generation of heavy traffic or activities which produce excessive noise and odors . Residential neighborhoods should be planned and developed with pedestrian ways on major streets connecting to schools , open spaces , commercial areas , industrial centers and other significant features . Within the Urban Service Area , encourage future growth within vacant areas that are contiguous to the developed portion of the community . In Chanhassen ' s rural area which has been designated General Rural Use Area , residential development proposals will be considered providing that they comply with adopted density and on-site septic system standards . Such developments should not have a negative impact on natural resources nor should they impair the continuation of farming operations . The city will discourage the expansion or construction of commercial or industrial facilities within the General Rural Use Area . 8 9 1 Because of problems associated with sanitary landfills including dust , smoke , odors , rodents and ground water — pollution and their adverse relationship with concentrations of population , the city feels that such uses are inappropriate in Chanhassen . — Chanhassen has three generalized land use areas , general rural use , transitional and urban service . Policies for each of the three are as follows : '— General Rural Use - Development with on site treatment systems should be permitted provided that it is compatible with city plans and ordinances . Transitional Area - Transitional areas are those _ portions of the community that presently lack sewer service but will be serviced during the next major expansion of the sewer system . In these areas , the city should critically review all development — proposals to assess their compatibility with urban scale development that is expected within the next 10 to 20 years . — Urban Service Area - In the urban service area , the city should allow full scale development consistent _ with the city ' s comprehensive plan and zoning ordinances . Encourage the development of additional commercial and — industrial uses in order to balance the community ' s tax base . It is Chanhassen ' s intent to establish it ' s downtown area as the primary commercial /retail /service core for both community residents and the surrounding trade area . The city will continue to pursue and encourage development — and redevelopment opportunities consistent with approved plans and design standards . Emphasis will be placed on providing a variety of goods and services with convenient — vehicular , pedestrian and transit accesses . TRANSPORTATION GOAL Create a multi -modal transportation system that permits safe , efficient and effective movement of people and goods . -- POLICIES Provide a local transportation system that is consistent with the plans and programs of the county , metropolitan — and state systems as well as with the overall growth policies of the City of Chanhassen . 9 10 - Transportation facilities should be planned and designed to be aesthetically compatible with the surrounding environment . Encourage multiple use of right-of-way areas accommodating various modes of transportation . Thoroughfares and major routes should be planned so as to reduce conflicts between external traffic and local traffic while minimizing the disruption or division of the logical pattern of development in the community. Combine streets , highways , mass transit , terminals and parking facilities into a coordinated transportation system. Provide flexibility for additions or modifications to the transportation system by basing right-of-way requirements on an evaluation of future transportation needs . Neighborhoods should be planned to limit or discourage through traffic . Sufficient setbacks and/or berming should be provided for all development projects adjacent to major public roadways . Coordinate transportation facilities with land use types . Transportation facilities should be sized consistent with land use densities and intensities . Promote increased development of bikeways and pedestrian facilities . Promote safe and convenient access connections between the highway system and major commercial areas , industrial uses and residential areas . The city will cooperate with Southwest Metro , the Metropolitan Transit Commission and other public and private carriers in order to provide future transit service to and within the community . In major areas of employment and commercial activity , sufficient parking and transfer areas should be provided to meet the needs of mass transit . The city will continue an ongoing maintenance program in order to maximize the community ' s investment in transportation facilities . 10 11 Through the development review process , the city will _ strive to discourage development from occurring within designated highway corridors as well as limiting access to collector streets , minor arterials and major arterials . Chanhassen will require sidewalks and/or trails in commercial , industrial and medium and high density — residential areas ; adjacent to schools and other public buildings ; and along collectors and other high volume roads . The city will support federal , state , metropolitan and local efforts directed toward the timely construction of Trunk Highway 169-212 . — Chanhassen will coordinate efforts with Eden Prairie and other jurisdictions to ensure that TH 5 and TH 101 — continue to function effectively. Within the Urban Service Area , Chanhassen will provide a system of hard surfaced streets . Within the General Rural Use Area , the city will provide a transportation system consistent with the needs of agricultural uses . Chanhassen supports county , regional and state efforts to establish a light rail transit system . COMMUNITY FACILITIES — GOAL The City of Chanhassen should provide community facilities and public services necessary to protect and — enhance the health , safety and welfare of all Chanhassen residents . POLICIES Chanhassen should continue to cooperate with the Carver County Library System in the provision of library services to the community . Continue to make meeting space available to city boards , commissions , civic groups , homeowner associations and other community organizations . — Provide facilities , equipment and personnel to ensure adequate fire protection . _ Provide appropriate levels of police protection and emergency medical service consistent with the needs of Chanhassen residents . — Promote an ongoing maintenance program for all city buildings and facilities to ensure their extended use . — 11 12 - Cooperate with both the Chaska and Minnetonka School Districts in providing educational facilities and programs for all ages which meet local needs . The city will promote energy conscious design for all public buildings . SOLAR ACCESS GOAL The City of Chanhassen will encourage the protection of access to solar energy systems . POLICIES In fully developed areas of the community , protect direct sunlight access to solar energy systems where possible . Encourage new subdivisions to provide restrictive covenants which prohibit shading of adjacent properties to an appropriate depth on the south side of lots . Continually monitor city policies and ordinances to ensure that they do not restrict the installation of solar energy systems . In new subdivisions , building orientation should maximize opportunities for solar energy systems and passive solar systems . Regulate planting to protect access to potential future solar collector locations . In order to maximize solar access , a development should place the highest densities on south facing slopes with higher structures being at the upper portion of the slope . In areas subject to problems of erosion or sedimentation , development should not be allowed on steep slopes , regardless of the solar access potential of such areas . 12 13 2 . COMMERCIAL/ INDUSTRIAL LAND The 1980 Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan and the update that is — currently being completed present two MUSA lines , one that follows the Metropolitan Council ' s "official " alignment and the second identifying the alignment that Chanhassen feels is more realistic . (See Exhibit 2 ) Most of the land that accounts for the difference in the two lines is likely to be used for residential purposes in the future. In identifying it ' s own MUSA — line , the city is adequately depicting additional land area to satisfy residential demand . Commercial and industrial expansion areas , however , may not be adequately addressed by Chanhassen ' s MUSA line. Exhibits 3 and 4 show the distribution of the existing supply of vacant commercial and industrial property. INDUSTRIAL At the present time, approximately 293 acres of vacant industrial property exists . This total does not include any of the Rosemount site . Most of the vacant land is concentrated in the Chanhassen Lakes Business Park with a roughly 50/50 split on each side of County Road 17 . In addition to the business park , remaining industrial acreage is located either in the extreme eastern section of Chanhassen or adjacent to the new McGlynn Bakeries facility — south of TH 5 and west of Audubon Road . In conjunction with the plan update, it seems prudent to carefully review the supply of industrial land to ensure that it can meet Chanhassen ' s future needs . Chanhassen ' s industrial growth is relatively recent having its origins in the late 1970 ' s with the platting and development of — Park One in the eastern portion of the community and the Chanhassen Lakes Business Park south of TH 5 . In the 10 years of the existence of these two areas , approximately 269 acres of industrial — land has been absorbed for an overall average of approximately 27 acres per year. If this past trend continues , the City will need a total of 324 acres of additional industrial land prior to 2000 . Currently , 293 acres of vacant land exists . Looking at the average amount of industrial land absorption can be misleading . Throughout the early 1980 ' s , the rate of industrial — growth was relatively slow and most developments were smaller (30 ,000 sq. ft . ) facilities . During the later half of the 1980 ' s , the trend has been to larger scale users , many of which are establishing campus type facilities . Examples include Rosemount @ 58 acres , Instant Webb/Victory Envelope @ 44 acres and McGlynn Bakeries @ 37 acres . If this trend continues , Chanhassen ' s available supply of 293 acres of vacant land could be absorbed — prior to the year 2000 . 14 The potential need for additional industrial land raises a series of questions . Will the Metropolitan Council agree with a need for additional land and if so , are changes to the existing MUSA line possible prior to 2000 ? (Keep in mind that the City has an agreement with the Metro Council and MWCC not to expand the MUSA line until at least 2000 as a part of the Lake Ann Interceptor ) How much land should Chanhassen ultimately allocate to industrial uses ? If the city wants to designate additional industrial land , where should it be located ? Prior to addressing some of these questions , I would first like to review the existing supply of commercial land . COMMERCIAL Chanhassen currently has three primary commercial areas : 1 ) the intersection of TH 7 and TH 41 , 2 ) the downtown area and 3 ) the Business Fringe area along US 169 / 212 . The commercial center currently under construction at TH 7 and TH 41 will utilize all of the available vacant land in northern Chanhassen and the Business Fringe area in southern Chanhassen is not proposed for any _ expansion due to the lack of sanitary sewer . Property in and around the downtown area remains as the sole source of land to accommodate commercial growth . In the downtown area and immediate vicinity , a supply of approximately 52 acres of existing vacant commercial land exists . The parcels comprising this pool of vacant land are in many cases , scattered and relatively small in size (3 - 5 acres ) . Approximately 16 acres of the total vacant supply is located in the heart of the downtown redevelopment area. Few , if any , of the remaining parcels have the land area or locational criteria to satisfy the requirements of larger scale commercial uses . In past planning efforts , the property known as the Highpath Farm ( Eckankar ) which is located in the northwest corner of the intersection of TH 5 and County Road 17 has been identified for a variety of land uses . The property has been considered for both commercial and industrial uses . At one time , the site was identified as a campus business location for Minnetonka Inc . when their Softsoap product line was new to the market . Recently , this site was approved for construction of a new church . This action may result in the permanent use of the entire site for a public/semi - public land use rather than commercial or residential . The development of the Highpath Farm site leaves the City of Chanhassen with no additional commercial land to accommodate large scale commercial operations outside of the land that is available in the downtown area. If Target desired to locate in Chanhassen , where would they go? Based on current land availability , the answer may have to be : To Chaska ! As a land use , large scale retail operations like Target are not consistent with the mix of entertainment and retail uses desired in downtown Chanhassen . 14a EXHIBIT 2 ! A 1 ! ! 1 B ! ! ! ! ! ! ! C 1- ! ! ! ! 1 !- ! ! ! ! i i ! E ! ! 1 ! ! i 1 F 1 j..._!....-_, . '�.'k. / �,. 4_'• "mit ,\�R itrw7 \ �• .41 its'. ,- .. 'Z7114, I .. .-*:r-41 as ri p , ■* 'V' :A�h - ,fir' •., -1'' _ .sem • ----- -- . I i - - .ate\ a.nn 1 . InWit ril a v 2 - :Yr% :. %. i ; I r, ...- lio 1..j1;-,,care .. 7. -; 1_ '= 4.4 _ --, - - _ / ''0.1-— 1 si5i ■ 75 r 7iP411 3 is as•-\--c,:c', / ---....„ , --,-.- - 1 ---47--ir .. _'--.17 -7./.1 • ''(-- t - 411.--- - 4111A4 - I 1 1 i "--___>7ic , - , -----;,. . , _t___::: l 'ilt ; II ! ! i ii - _ 1 , at . r.' - M- 0 CITY OF I I I 4 C>IANHASSEN �—^-�I II �• . BA S£ WP I t .,"- a 2000 MUSA 1 ' �-T I ° .' ■■■■■■■■■ Metro Council - 1 ' .. -� 5 L., I immilim Chanhassen - - - —` --- — . ..UM4 , -• 1.1 • 1 1,116 �` - GASSEN ENCIEERAA?DEPT `-/IV' ' . 7 . AVON 0 LA,MIR ,,r, ' ... _ ..ir , . -. _ — PI I' gos • I i-1,,; - _ 7 - _ - -. W.m. I t 1 1...! 1 1 I I II ! 1 1 1 ! i 15 I 31NIVNd N303 I A0 I A.110EXHIBIT 3 • 00991 \‘4._ I 00991ou it 0 • 0 g o �� 0 7 r. 00981 \\Irl ; f_ ; . 00891 CO ,.m W �( m m r N Q o 00061 o c � T �, ili m , 1 1,� i I \, Co) I __. __ ,..,„W .... '\-. '0.Z. 741 I 1 PV:it LtI1 " '1 '�r�iA^ 'err 41. 1 /. ��a 4w d� `�1_ �i�n1�1��a►`Mme.�i•,�M.tiral 1111116:41 IN — __ oNvitterefigniKi2 i,11 Ilfr.,-- / lu 'Sit Ill'1 E.-"== k..., / till ...iik..71ii I ,...\\#11..t. „:„......t..I:r... \ ___) , . Ea , A I . ;...._. ,.....E.Ilk -+I.-1 a) VT= '-ift.:1-: • tsii 44 L. U .�E ciiiiij e.ti �:int: A C �1 ................ �— Ir y: • .-+n�11�1 W a 'I -z4r .. N ... 4,..m, / , :�.K;r,.11181■i.c: & n _ — • �- .1�: tr 11 Graf 003a�1 . ..\\::. CO ,r,;) 5z., \ , A i 'i1à I 7:6' dis:r:.14,41041\1\1\\14314,211 Zip ';_ 4 av 0) . z cz- ... ...4\ 1}�,`{J- �T'.JI+ �. •..��• a3Ya3r . � _ _ 1 y — 14, 711 '91e ,0-t,041,07 gawp 1 7--- 1 (‘ ii•,...\___1_"' ji...‘vree, ./., — 4 ..,„. . . ., .._, ......,...„._. „„ :„.7.••— SS am *i • JIM& t. al i, ._d,, ��j�j ... I Ute_ l 1-\ o --. . j-, .... msg. \19: 4', VV �i;ni9 Sa3M0d Ail 1 1 l ,3 ' O I. 3nwa � � I. : — i ' y. . .„.... . slikir -,-e., Qdi 0 - • \ I r \ 1 _ _. .iiii (21706\� NO9nanr Y.\__ N — Vi L-. ate, ` _ _ 16 — 31):11111:1d N i Jo AIID EXHIBIT 4 . : \1rei 171 : ..- 00981 L 00991 o ilk I o • 0 0 D N ^ 00981 Mite'M 00881 m m m m I � � 4 i II O0tv 00061 F p0C v p r , Nipi L.., _____ __. ,.... : _ ,. ___ lb' ••Itt :w.11-4 " -11 j4',, '7117.4p. illt ilir ' ..", ,,,.•$4. - \'‘ 0 i 00.11-14/ ? 42w 0 L - -\ Afft, I irir;,-,:A"ii.71:bet, , ... :III. t'.WO .;--' - 444‘tp,r* e1.: :/et�%I�'X11`1 +r - ' t��4r. 6.. 0 � 4i/nu■/■n►�. :■.' l �) � --.......,— )04 ..._./ _<:`milm �.A it!WV \- it 1 IV . 411141, 6—_ __ N V.":14140 p' w i' '' \ \ 4c / I A. P '��® ` .tib ��s°0 n \\ 11 11 r/.ate 6.E V Ilho i.ACD ,,---071..:r...„.; .......rrrm7,7 2 ��I�11�,�1 miin:Nroin . w .ii IS�� VIEjik Q 6 1:11104p. e- p 41.W? aril., .• %I Q L a■►,ilio:■IL 1151 c -'-- .sem " , 1 gip-, 1 CAIxa , oa3Nri _ o C 73 i . 1 ( ‘°' Ca t '''. 0 \ . ‘ .,,\*.Alllhoinegipp\L --I cq 1.1 .... -z-..- t--1 _ ,.._,,;\\ z as 1t IQ — Psi ® I �■/// U v � i I A _ i ,.40es , O��"014 ��r S�3M� u a:5. ter: o�,e itliiiiiii:,,w iv!7:..'sr. * 1111 I I I opi t: pi a _. • -1--. CZ 1a ne 1 > llru i ,62 -: .` l �� l9 Sa3Mod w . . . Via*0 77s\ 4„ _- imike Al& ,,,\\ MBE \ b \\� - �� \\ M08n0nr ,*. ..N V 1 a 1 A\ ,/\ 1e 17 ADDRESSING THE DEFICIENCIES The update of the Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan has attempted to address the future growth of the community through the preparation of a series of corridor studies . These studies combine both land use and transportation elements into one package. The land use map for the TH 5 corridor study identifies new commercial and industrial parcels outside the existing MUSA line. (Exhibit 5 ) In fact , all of the new commercial and industrial parcels are also —� located outside of the Chanhassen MUSA line. This information coupled with recent events raises a major question : Should the Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan actively portray additional — commercial and industrial land? Should the plan go one step further and address future land use for the entire community , not just for the areas within the MUSA line? The MUSA line is a metropolitan growth management tool . It has been identified , not to control the type of growth but to control the amount and general location of growth . If Chanhassen — identifies future land use for the entire community , the action will be in compliance with Metropolitan Council requirements as long as the rate of growth and the location of growth falls within the MUSA line. Eventually , Chanhassen will be fully developed . Development of the remaining land may take 20 years , 50 years or more. The — location of the line in 1989 does not have major implications on long term land use types . It controls only when those various locations will receive sanitary sewer service which is typically the key component allowing the full development of a parcel . Since land development is generally only an issue of timing , a — comprehensive plan that identifies community wide future land use may be advantageous in future years . If Chanhassen ' s population and industrial growth continues at accelerated levels , having a plan identifying new areas may be beneficial to potential arguments for the expansion of the MUSA boundaries . At Wednesday ' s meeting , large scale color maps will be used to — further facilitate a discussion on land uses and the identification of land uses for the entire city . 3 . GENERAL RURAL USE AREA When the 1980 Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan was prepared , the city had a policy prohibiting development in the unsewered area. That policy was subsequently changed primarily due to a successful legal challenge by a property owner. The draft of the land use chapter — of the plan is presently void of any discussion of land uses in the unsewered area (General Rural Use Area) . Text and graphic exhibits need to be added to identify the City ' s current thinking . 18 - --7- - •- i-4--;:r- i ...... il,7.- ' . .ftlike* ___ 01:11V MIFF- MrillEVI4jar.4h;!.EFEIT. - _das.1- 7*i.tir:_\z• , ,, 0 diNt,.t.,.----m-,...:—,Alla_lAle irt.) sat ) )/121111b Alt.- -_ Er .... EXHIBIT 5 --' lerwillor ..._ ili g Ihinhumb, ar-- - • Me. VW • :114 A late , .,, ' P A . , . —.:_mial • ... go:I.\ ,,zveii ....:.,_g., -Prall li /1' liort r ----- , .. ...1%.. ;.1.1/1A.am If LAKE 7 ' .. k v. „ , IIKENIA SMTA IF .-. IP'' . _ _ ...„ _ LA I I i 1 , ;1, ,,,,,\,.,...,._ ,. ._• , • ,,,... •t-, r __. . ; i 1.ST JOE,jr..1 -- . _Pki IP.:,.. p.,... .,. • i Aill i r ' "VD •. :ir • , L_i 0 o .----" •-..• r.721 ." •..'•• ) ..: ..- • „..A.,...„ „.... ,,„. .. . 5 , a _MII . 1 0 L A . ii0P'"- -'4111 ° Ill I I I lair Wit - , ear 4101r, ' .... A. 'Ikl mor min .4Ior I : iMiZi li , I ' ! EMI a. _ -, DH! _...... .,, .„,u, COM • at R- ,.. D-,, I 4 ' Pill S 1. - 0 R-4-D _ ,.... ., _ 4, __. . .‘,,,, . I I. .41:,:,, ,,r. ,1_,„_,,,mu-.064- -- A 11.41:41A- .1- AL A, ' Lilk 1 l lit*. i - '' At. il W / a ar w i 1 1r T R- r-1 I 1 ; COMM : HD 7 I CUP IP' /S ---.411 ir 0,1 ; R , , , M i . Jr 10 ,,,,,......._ I 4 ---1' •4.'" ...,, ////' 71 NN, - . / . ' L-_--1 1 , —-- I' _ #7. ---- / I "I 1' I '! I ..,..fr o 1 'cm mi • t 1°0_1_L__ . ..__..)1J __L.V0 , - —1--------7— /1 —i 1 I I I - -7 -\ 1 ! , ' .- c*- \\- ...' I , _ 41 , - •• •• Chanhassen MUSA Line 4r1 \ / / I ... . i CITY OF 1600 is I • 1 _ CIAM-IASSEN _ BASE MAP .20c__ _ 1 .... .,,, , . ,1 1.00 I lit • • %. . 19 .... I The challenge in the General Rural Use Area (GRU ) is to identify short term uses that are consistent with long term development — patterns . The issue of contractors yards is an example of how difficult it can be to find acceptable land uses . The goal and policy statements address the GRU and should logically form the basis for the land use plan text. The goals and policies allow development in the GRU providing that it is consistent with existing plans and ordinances . This means that the plan allows residential development providing it is consistent with the one per ten density requirement and providing that a parcel meets on-site septic system requirements . Currently outlined policies preclude — industrial or commercial expansion in the GRU . In earlier discussions , the Planning Commission expressed interest _ in providing a more detailed overview of the unsewered area. Categories of existing uses such as residential , agriculture , hobby farms , wetlands and wooded areas were discussed . For example , Exhibit 6 contains information that was compiled by Tim Erhart on — various types of existing land uses in the southern portion of the city . In previous sessions , the Planning Commission has also expressed other general ways of approaching land uses in the GRU . The following are some of the concepts that were identified : 1 . Identify pure agriculture areas vs . areas suitable for expansion of hobby farms . 2 . Discourage development in rural wooded areas . 3 . For rural subdivisions , require "ghost plats " as a tool in identifying potential future development patterns and their relationship to current development proposals . As was mentioned previously , the land use section needs to address — uses in the General Rural Use Area. The means of addressing this topic can take several forms . A passive approach is to let the goal and policy statements portray the city ' s thoughts regarding — development in the rural area. This approach would result in minimal text being added to the land use section stating that only development that complies with current ordinance will be allowed in the GRU area. Another alternative is to take a more active approach and specifically address land uses in southern Chanhassen . Such an — approach may include a listing of existing land use types and natural conditions and a corresponding statement of appropriate uses in those areas . For example , in those areas labeled as being — suitable for continued farming operations , all development would be discouraged . 20 - , • . . • .. d' in EXHIBIT 6 0 11y, • 0 OOO O O O O p p L L ' ---- • . ._. '•,. NId 3 N N 3 N -_ 1 \ N I - AINnoo �- W L .. 4J -, , Imam ,, \s,14.../.!:‘,.) ,'' ..,., -4 r3 ,,,, , •T_ . _,__ , Mir -.... co % iffirm. •.:$ d . i . .....c IT o 1 N Illi ff \ yet ° I i1,� / 4116... . '1 ,(::', 4/40 ... . „; W A &Ilk i: -4;=.N.gek_-„fai -.:1,7:,Edaw..,...:., j • Ea�, a2 VV ' • „v, , i, .....--,,A. a . _iii .,, 11 owl . , .11047 15 •2',., ., ) VW 4W, • .Illri\ \\ - i -.3,,l_ -* IF II -1 ;1111 .1 0110,114Aki/ ___.i co — .r.” BEI Al . pp ., ______:_. . ____ „ Iu p ..,",. ,,,...... 7 EN_ A . ' I 411 'IT..:,!EFT 0 .7.,\e,M, 4.1 , 1,:, ..j . , 4,, iiirAi_._•1....i.L.: . . . _. i.i.s\ , i . .-_1/1 . o _--. .Wit&I,,NN. .,.,:\\ fire . CO .?C12°r.\ Al 111111:1 -- . '.4k. '''‘• g i •-,... . 1--_.) -. 40 . -N‘' 'Ng , , -,, .NN,0 c., vow* . . \, ,, tin „. .; . :.,1,...4 ... Alkhk. 7;: -1 k.„.... - • Sr .., 1 A • _ ._ \,.,\. ,,. /1.. vb.,. , . -:frgs. . 'I ! 4` 3 S . 41k, \.\- • . ) 1 ” ! I t �` f ao �/. ,-----„: ... ,_ , _ __ , . iii •,,4et 61-0 I --;) tr; ... . . i ... ,,.. i 1 it' L -ir 144%- .ii. .: , --7-1 3 -I: Alli' 1111e1111*'-- -; — , i __------ . '`,,,„,1 L.12 1 ; — IN ai ,-------/ .........._ —I NOBnOnd / The Planning Commission needs to provide some further policy direction on what type of approach that should be taken regarding the General Rural Use Area. After an approach is identified , new text will be incorporated into the final draft for further review by the Commission . 4 . CORRIDOR STUDIES In order to bridge the gap between the land use and transportation — sections of the plan , a series of corridor studies as were prepared for key routes. (Exhibit 7) The studies include TH 5 , TH 101 , US 169 /212 and proposed TH 212 . Each of these studies contains future — land use designations beyond the limits of MUSA boundaries . The purpose of these designations is to provide a look at long term city policy for these areas . The reasoning behind the _ identification of land uses in the corridor studies is the same as that used in now suggesting that land use types be identified for the entire community . To date , the corridor studies have served as free standing documents compatible with the comprehensive plan update. In the final draft , they are to be incorporated into the body of the full — plan. Prior to completing that task , the Commission may want to conduct another review of the material . Specific attention is suggested on the following items : 1 . TH 5 Corridor Study - If there is a concern about the supply of existing commercial and industrial land , text should be added to this study advocating the possible — extension of the MUSA line prior to 2000 . 2 . TH 101 Corridor Study - The land use plan shown on Exhibit "B " for the area south of TH 5 and north of Lyman Boulevard needs to be modified . The most recent alignment of TH 101 connects to Market Boulevard and not old 101 as shown on Exhibit "Be . This shift in alignment — may change land uses along the corridor and may significantly change uses on the Ward property. At the meeting, large scale drawings will be used to further — review changes in this area . 3 . US 169 /212 Corridor Study - Expansion of the Business _ Fringe area is not advocated until after sanitary sewer becomes available (post 2000 ) . Within the BF area, nonconforming uses are not to be expanded or intensified . Is this still the appropriate policy regarding BF uses ? — COMPLETION OF THE PLAN After receipt of input on the items that are addressed in this memorandum, a final draft of the plan will be assembled . The draft should be ready for review on May 17 , 1989 . 22 - EXHIBIT 7 T.H. 5 (Arboretum Boulevard) Corridor Study LOCATION AND LENGTH: Eastern border to western border. Approximately 5.7 miles. FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION: Minor Arterial (1987 Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan). AVERAGE DAILY TRAFFIC: 20,500 (1986) at Eastern Border 30,000 - 40,000 (2005, Benslbof & Associates, Inc. ) at Eastern Border -yl)F. VI_ 1I � y ""' • aTa -• __ _ . " s-T.c"ef_ __ I ITom J DESCRIPTION: T.H. 5 is currently Chanhassen's major east/west route serving both local and regional travel. Highway 5 is the City's most significant route since it is the only major arterial providing convenient access to the City's commercial and industrial areas. Since the route bisects the developed portion of the community, future land use and transportation decisions will have a major impact on the City. (For additional background information, see Transportation Section text. ) PROPOSED LAND USE: Proposed land uses along T.H. 5 are discussed in two segments. Segment A includes the eastern half of the route which has full urban services available. Segment B is the western portion which is presently unsewered. The eastern segment of T.H. 5 is approximately 60% developed. Existing uses -' are largely industrial and commercial developments. Planned industrial and commercial expansion areas lie adjacent to existing uses. An exception to this is the northwest quadrant of the intersection of County Road 17 and T.H. 5 (Exhibit A). This area has been labeled as high density residential due to its proximity to commercial services, Lake Ann Park and adjacent arterials. Medium density residential is planned immediately north of this site. 23 1 . . .... .,, .a, ‘ I • Ja.. r I I dMMJ7fYJ I wCP M(PMI COUNTY _ - — no�I ��p• �- IANW, `-�– ♦w�'� cat =_ • -- ' • 1I� 1 %��• p�IfIMN;� w a.�. _ �� . �� ' �ire.,,,,, _ / ��', t'-��Z •.ice4� a.tl 0004011 0..•am Ille". 11t.1tL�F_Isfrr • ) L/ •ails r ti ui� - -' •so0 al ilialig a SIX 21 , g ry/ A i` rie, Iiipt. — •• _ ';f► •.s:.t ear. I. . ,V.T.Z.! it.!..40. „ ila=mi. , Azilget ,, II ',my ilballeillUVIIPM -, \ ... I� !. P iiiirs. ..1...., � 1 �.,,•• � „ ' �4:•�� anon ; ki1u■ , 1 � �Ijti .r460.0 '..r. % 'f ,t►,�' 1N 1 11044,J . L...1. ._ . -A..,.. .,-, . 11111 LAN Lt/Cr r h =.►::u� a •! `. �1�`j�►��.. _ _T.. /... _ .,,_-, ._ ...2..1.,„„L--. '7-'0. •-1,,.,=• .___, - .., _i k Jul:- liri i . . 1� t 41 ', :N,...t Ntcatz,,it lL-� �nt, / r _ / '`0000. ,1__ _ I r...,‘„. , ,I _� - rzo. / LAKE z I LAX,' AMM - �` �� i �— -r)a — J ��NNuu �� 1 . _ , C ;IA:.-ikaii° -Nhoo / i III , . ,..7, ..... , . . ,oelti -.t, --z-:•• ‘'--- ,mom 8 f _ R M D1 14}41,1 Veda. ,..ii� - , P/OS : - 4;2 r Yii —_t__l_. _. -04. 11,---- ,- ,,,,,_ , I ! I r •._ ., R—' •L •.� T�_Art : X11® - L I 'rip/VI _ uriiirgraortrror—,00e- ,.. i •1 ,�4 -�r=¢--i ��.aw+•• �, t� a 3� eft, ' 0I ;„,,os• - \� ...�. .roo - -" :,, 1614%•••.. V:1' •, • 4: .A I _ - 0300 - ' ♦ 1 I LAN( SS WO I. . ' - — // , irovA _ i9/C£ If ASN 1::41(1" '' - 1 pj ./ .. i - ,e, _ , ,. . ,. .r 1 ii e. M j - coo — Exhibit �,�„ - , ---- •.0 e IF-- F ..... "I I T e� ___ \ __'' .00 Proposed Land Use 1 *tr �� _ *44 — „! LAX( I 24 K • AiL£r ?i 1 `\ M•.0 Segment B, the western portion of T.H. 5 is largely undeveloped. Planned uses in this area are shown only as a statement of long term city policy. This area will not see development until after the year 2000 due to the lack of availability of sanitary sewer. The Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan, in accordance with Metropolitan Council policies advocates orderly growth, consistent with the provision of full urban services. In the future, sanitary sewer service to this area will be provided by one of two sources. The Lake Ann Interceptor, which was completed in 1988, will provide service to a small area along the north side of T.H. 5 between Lake Ann Park and Galpin Boulevard. Sewer connections in this area are presently prohibited due to the policies and agreements of the Metropolitan Council and Metropolitan Waste Control Commission. Providing sewer service to the remaining area along T.H. 5 is dependent on the eventual construction of another major interceptor line. Construction of such a line is not presently planned and will not occur until well into the next century. Long term land uses along T.H. 5 follow a theme of diversity. In order to provide a functional and aesthetic balance, various types of uses are planned. The north side of T.H. 5 between T.H. 41 and Lake Ann Park is designated primarily for medium and high density residential uses. Commercial occupies the northeast corner of T.H. 41 and T.H. 5. On the south side of T.H. 5, a major new industrial area is shown between T.H. 41 and Galpin Boulevard. This area is contiguous to industrial uses in the City of Chaska. The remaining frontage along the south side of T.H. 5 is split between commercial and high density residential uses. Land lying west of T.H. 41 currently contains either single family residential or public/semi-public land owned by the University of Minnesota Landscape Arboretum. Future changes in this area are not anticipated. The City of Chanhassen expects to receive substantial development pressure along the T.H. 5 corridor. Until such time as full urban services are available, the City will not approve interim or permanent uses which do not comply with existing zoning regulations. Current code allows only residential development with on-site systems at a density of 1 unit per 10 acres. PROPOSED TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENTS: Since 1980, regional policies pertaining to improvements along the T. H. 5 corridor have changed dramatically. When Chanhassen prepared its 1980 Comprehensive Plan, regional policies discouraged improvement of T.H. 5 in favor of construction of new T.H. 212. At the present time, however, T.H. 5 is being improved. By 1990, T.H. 5 will exist as a four-lane divided roadway from a point 3000 feet east of Chanhassen's east border to T.H. 494. A 1991 letting is scheduled for replacement of the C.M. St.P & P Railroad bridge south of the Chanhassen CBD and widening Highway 5 to four lanes from west of CSAH 17 to the point 3000 feet east of Chanhassen's eastern border. Further improvements in western Chanhassen are not planned at the present time. 25 ./!NM. /,01:PP-1011:vtpiti-.,--1174-40.,; ,,,au sig- :-A. , - lims,r4i.:- 4„, 1'4- l*1 0 Ahr:.2E.7r..... .--'„,.i.. no, Nur g,.• —4 ar...i.4l"yAi414t• �.��aM ._v. ..ice~' •.�iri : ---/..I.F7 40-•i„n.Q. A. Wit. 1 • • /0. .. ,7,, LAKE I , r / NEA S , A / 7r,.� ` ,� -If—, . -___.. - ~f - i I Aii- L -•:. - .„,Jr _ 1 7 _... 0 0 1 i_i IIMIP �1 =_„--, ---- --41.1 -.kw-, --:y 1 C OM M r_.„ , .. ., --_-_- \ P;S , , i' -l1D '&R-MD D ,..., , Ab..._ cit k.I. r T •�-�. .f 1 R �' /S 11 O/I ;,� COMM HD CIR -1 O/I 1 AHD• , _ ii� R-LD ` M; - -� ► I., 4, - / 1 _ � , I - ' _ J LyYAM LLr0 ic• onC•$'4 I— _ .— I , g g Exhibit B Proposed Land Use d - ...._ ,,,,\______ v ; _. . ,...._. A, CITY OF 4 MOO —,i/ t y CHANHASS►EN BASE MAP ,10° - 1 MJO I Y,' 26 ,100— —— T.H. 101 (Great Plains Boulevard) Corridor Study - LOCATION AND LENGTH: From the -� . � n £ ---am-..--.a,,1:4„....:;.:::....,...:. northern Chanhassen border, south to 9. ^� . , U.S. 169 and U.S. 212. Approximately a ` _-:&.-q..''1.-- 6 miles. i a— • .tp t- FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION: Minor _�. �.r nr�_: . `T, l Ch1 Arterial ( 1987 Chanhassen "` - Comprehensive Plan) ^-i47•-`#ja : ""' ," AVERAGE DAILY TRAFFIC: ' -_ !" tom _ - - 6000 (1984) North of T.H.5 .-- _ - 11,000 - 15,000 !..„--,- .= . .,._ �, 4- (2005, Benshoof & r , i _ Associates, Inc. I , �' DESCRIPTION: T. H. 101 I 4 2 L� is a major �L--! �-� �1•a r north/south route through the City of ,,t, ., � 3 - Chanhassen. North of T. H. 5, the ,,�� -- - , corridor is essentially fully f44 _ developed. South of T. H. 5, the o -.' -V } �: corridor is largely undeveloped with i r .. most of the land abutting the 1 a4 ... right-of -way beingused for - i� - 9 Y E`- --- agriculture agriculture or large lot residential . •"�- - - uses. . J T. H. 101 has functional importance to 1 \ ► rII, , - both the City and the region. It � serves as a major north/south route i ' I f for Chanhassen residents. Recently, 1 ' "" it has assumed an expanded role as a connection between subregions. It Ii-- _.- serves as a link between southwest , itt== i metropolitan area communities and AMAMIA- entertainment oriented developments in V Shakopee such as Canterbury Downs and 1 VP - Valley Fair. I�f :- .►rip' • 27 Future planning for T. H. 101 is complicated by the current classification of the road. In 1933, 101 was classified as a "Temporary Trunk Highway." Routes carrying this designation receive only maintenance improvements and are not allocated funding for capacity improvements. This situation is further — complicated by the fact that several governmental entities including MnDOT, Carver County, Hennepin County, Eden Prairie and Chanhassen have jurisdiction over land included within or abutting the T. H. 101 corridor. A comprehensive _ improvement of T. H. 101 will not occur until this 45 year old classification issue is finally resolved. PROPOSED LAND USE: T.H. 101 has been broken into three segments for discussion purposes. Segment A includes T.H. 101, north of T.H. 5, B includes the portion of the roadway from T.H. 5, south to the proposed new intersection with T.H. 212. and segment C includes the portion between proposed T.H. 212 and existing T.H. 169 and T.H. 212. Segment A is almost totally developed. Uses along the Chanhassen side of the corridor are entirely single family residential with the exception of an apartment complex at the south end of Segment A. Minor residential infill will occur in the future. (Exhibit A). — Exhibit B contains a proposed land use plan for the section of the T. H. 101 corridor extending from new T. H. 212 to T. H. 5. This plan responds to a — number of factors including existing zoning, existing land uses, the need to correct existing roadway geometrics and planned highway improvements. Implementation of the southern portion of this plan is dependent on the — construction of the T.H. 101/T.H. 212 interchange. The T. H. 101 corridor land use plan identifies a mixture of uses throughout the corridor. A commercial area is located southwest of the planned — intersection of T. H. 101 and T. H. 212. This area which is contiguous to Lyman Boulevard could appeal to both neighborhood and highway oriented needs. Anticipated commercial uses include convenience groceries, a gas station and — similar uses. From the proposed intersection to the north side of Lake Susan, the corridor — is planned for residential uses. Medium density is called for in areas abutting the right-of-way. Medium density uses have a gross density of 8 or less units per acre. North of Lake Susan to T. H. 5, planned designations are consistent with existing land uses and existing zoning. The west side of T. H. 101 is labeled industrial as an eventual extension of the Chanhassen Lakes Business Park. — The east side is predominantly residential with a small commercial area between Lake Drive East and T. H. 101. Proposed land uses south of the planned interchange of T.H. 101 and T.H. 212 have been shown as a statement of long term city policy. Long term is defined as post 2000 and may even be 2010 to 2020. Segment C will not develop prior to that time because of the lack of urban services, principally sanitary — sewer. The Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan, in accordance with Metropolitan Council policies advocates orderly growth, consistent with the provision of full urban services. — 28 1 I CASTLE I CASCADE CASCADE 7HR/STMAS` / I I I HENNEPINI COUNTY COURT R-+.^� CIRCLE LAKE a ` CARV R relPIEDMONT IW d,, rib.. ASIA CR7 Cr7� .. 111114- IrwEsrT_ r . tpa ' `1••. til r ' : � / �/ = 111..' ... �• 1� 1-1- 1114111111111191111r TRIIPLME . : •�r � � t /��A�I,{I04 IWO LAM -40 glal will" .---- %A �. ((��algo;. I,':'ijI'` = IFTLE RIDGE MOVR.I�VIEW! b! ,,-`� SA1 •,\ Fteto_LGJEFF tall'MUNTER • �� T!(--- ,c). eibb...... : CT, _ 1 Gown lea !,I� moi' ti.��I�4,. . ` ',111�� Ork. g 4f, ,` roxrAlL tel ��, ^♦ �� = �� ' .,**1 il couRT -.v W l. -1, 'M .ie moi 94I]L4ILLD i mem la ;la 41: ?c 'IMMO MA" - \ii 1. 1,lx to , , li li / Tao e- - c sl ;I .. . Ir. W .4,1111 110 go i 1' 4 rralf' t �:c � `.r -1 ,11. " 1 1 1 `4 0"1''• .1,..R ' \ 1 .41u OR LOTUS - - 1 ‘---4 74 Lo , j �PIs,..is tom' s,..410 c immrsixor 10 CO — IV' 014( ss VIM � � LAKE \� • ICC t . ims N 4 4210 q4111\ ...... / „,; Q��an mst1 - fOA aiilliar I 4 ...., --f- upreiroS. VilMni4 ig -°/ira$47, . INV 10,,,\)\ , ...., .... .... , ..... i_ ...R.! k . - %Pak; ). kin j 1:01:°. 7- lirlrekflitErgli ...L2 MIMEll rti�Na�■ mitt,: e'i ExhibitI. 11 _ 0� �1 .. I,uIl NU,II ,/ .�� I P ro osed L •p and Use �NNI IIIIIpW 11111 1 id //PP' tr--- LI j 1 _.-----,,,,„ n ? Pill 1 —7111111.� „' 1l.AKE DRIV 1 3 � 1 1 f - , , W! 1 IIIIkI .�G W c J Nov l=am` J�l �T . 44/ a ti, - moo \ cc Mgr= IMP Goa Illi' li EMI infi..15. - '' PO,:- 1 1,"r �— •'� riga eemil Pig �_ OI4 T E Y i��• t •� HIGNWA �f.,44. PE .\#.3_7_, --.-E ‘ -1a-, ft: &I Ild IND rt 1449� *ens: � � ptt - . , P/ • S i iv, a* 0 9,4v, - -- _____ , ' roiwkot•o"'''.11 / 0 I.lay/Clo - , LAKE SUSAN %,9( x _ gni �,� / 74:71r. ''( R/C crif-N............,--1-ro--4,. _ 01 .,\ -0 _._._,..= W. t.; IP Ilit ( , / 1 _ 1 ►� - i. • R-LD o a•••• .... J ›•••• ••••••• •• Iiimill CD 4 I .O �••..•� O IF! e al ' ,QL ::•... ' •: ly q 0 • Or 0-- • • ' •••�•• R-LD ile p`� .• : 1 ':•• Crd 1 R-MD,D "-HDI1•.. •• Exhibit B Proposed Land Use 31 As Seament C of T.H. 101 develops long term, the corridor is expected to — consist of primarily single family residential uses. (Exhibit C) . This pattern is expected to evolve for two principal reasons: First, existing scattered larae lot development has established a low density residential precedent along the corridor and second, other, more intensive land use cateaories are rrore suitably located in other parts of the community. At the intersection of T.H. 101 and T.H. 169 and T.H. 212, medium density residential and commercial uses have been shown. These uses are responsive to existing topography on the west side and existing commercial uses on the east. PROPOSED TRANSPORTATION . Chanhassen's 1980 Comprehensive Plan and the Year 2005 Land Use and Transportation Study contained recommendations for T. H. 101. The recommendations contained within this corridor study are compatible with the findings of both previous reports. T. H. 101 is viewed as having both local and regional significance. At the present time, approximately one-third of the traffic volumes on T. H. 101 are through trips on the regional roadway system. This indicates that future improvements will need to involve local, regional and state officials. Resolution of the jurisdictional issue can only be resolved if one agency takes a lead position. In order to help resolve this situation, Chanhassen has designated T. H. 101 as a minor arterial. Jurisdiction for T. H. 101 south of T. H. 5 should be the responsibility of Carver County. Segment A, north of T.H. 5 needs geometric improvements to increase sight distance and general public safety. Since this segment intersects private driveways and streets in both Chanhassen and Eden Prairie, improvements will need to involve a variety of public agencies. Isolated problem areas have been corrected by private developers, however, a comprehensive solution is necessary. T. H. 101 from Lyman Boulevard to T. H. 5 should be totally realigned. Realignment is necessary to remove the horizontal and vertical curvature problems of the existing roadway. Since the realignment involves total reconstruction, Chanhassen will have an opportunity to create an attractive approach to the community and particularly, the downtown area. In order to achieve functional and aesthetic design goals, it is recommended that T. H. 101 be constructed as a boulevard/parkway roadway with a landscaped median area. The realignment of T. H. 101 is shown conceptually on Exhibit B. Segment C of T. H. 101 will require substantial future improvements. Improvements are likely to include realignment of several areas and a new railroad bridge crossing. such improvements need to be coordinated with the State and Carver County. 31 I / ,,, U• a _ ., . '� o ott fl\''....,..,1 W ))lC � `J BOULEVARD (C.R 18) , 1 _LI �P - L rakl a•/� '\.: -,- . \ 141116 `, LAKE liii Fs . RiLEr iti '`‘‘,‘.. 04,w, 0 - 0 a I Z : — I _ �W �, MEI 4�Z ' .1.1.• 46411 2 Vitha 11111111 - . - --./eN° i ' __ , .... i1LD : --v f ** : R-L D 1 „A. I I,t I I , , ! _ t, _ Ifief _'..•� con ••\ — ., ! . , ! � �■ . e .155 FA-M 0 •' r M J ,,sf �, r . . / SQA V 5 Z`2 — N ' //''' / l Orr'oz. 169 9 c / V S pa��E ((-- --=_. _ v0 /R.R ,\ r 2,A). .•• •�•�•• %II' f�-YANG `.O ES qN� �, GO�,,;,u� — dila<' _ i.r. /IR/ C£ Exhibit "C" Proposed Land Use P (/LAKE Gs l 32 _ - U.S. 169/212 (Flying Cloud Drive) �- Corridor Study LOCATION AND LENGTH: From Chanhassen's eastern border (Eden Prairie) to the western border (Chaska). Approximately 2.7 miles. FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION: Minor Arterial (1987 Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan). AVERAGE DAILY TRAFFIC: 20,000 (1984) East of T.H. 101 19,600 - 35,400 (2005) Depending upon Construction of — New T.H. 212. j '--. 'a — t'tilt /7/ _ / , IgkL'ilift: 1 , , i 1Si / ..\\ ‘ , _______ ..„.._______,....... iiiitrord. _ I. ..ffir.- --i--:4„...,..yootviii.,ii- iii • i. — • r, iiiiiiiiiiimbh. ter =, P • /�i ,'�' �� - \. CITY OF•CMYO��SXN _ ,y - - u Y • $I4AKO/EL nor . i DESCRIPTION: U.S. 169/U.S. 212 is a combined roadway traversing the extreme southern section of Chanhassen. The two lane, undivided highway carries substantial traffic since it is a segment of a route connecting western Minnesota to the Twin Cities. — PROPOSED LAND USE: Southern Chanhassen is not served by sanitary sewer. Consequently, no new urban scale development has occurred in recent years. A series of "grandfathered" businesses exists east of the intersection of U.S. _ 169/212 and U.S. 169/T.H. 101. Of these uses, some are conforming to the business fringe (BF) zone while others are non-conforming. The land use element of the 1987 Comprehensive Plan acknowledges the existence — of the conforming uses, however, land use policies discourage their expansion. Non-conforming uses by ordinance are prohibited from enlarging or extending their operations. 33 Proposed land uses along the U.S. 169 & U.S. 212 Corridor have been identified as a statement of long term city policy. In this case, long term is defined as being post 2000, possibly 2020 or beyond. The City of Chanhassen does not plan to expand the business fringe (BF) zone, hence, development will not occur prior to the availability of sanitary sewer service. Long term land uses follow a theme of diversity in order to ensure a future balance of function and aesthetics. When urban services become available, the north side of the U.S. 169/212 corridor is expected to develop as medium density and high density residential — with the exception of the existing commercial area. Property on the south side of 169/212 is within land designated as part of the Minnesota Valley National Wildlife Refuge. One small existing area of commercial (business fringe) exists at the Chaska border. PROPOSED TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENTS: Currently, there are no major — transportation improvements planned for existing 169/212. Topography and floodplain areas in eastern Chanhassen and western Eden Prairie preclude significant future expansion. The pending improvement most affecting existing U.S. 169/212 is the planned construction of new T.H. 212. When the new route is built, it will substantially eliminate increased traffic along the existing route. Existing 169/212 is not adequate to handle existing traffic flows. Improvements will be needed to reduce accident rates and enhance public — safety. 34 11 '' Q I LAKE ?I/SAN J-_ —'• i it I A/CE MARS, ill AVO rf I�y� -1t# _ - — I , 4 K det 411,) 1 --.Y!-; Ph f a r-1 i :1 JT 1 tirTh , ,_ i s.., . .. in. lQu�EwRO 1 ��' i—:-- i i I — 1 r � f 11 '� LAKE I MI j "''i.! g► . •p. RILEY 1 — �— 1 _ \4. z-• — l All R 7 toJ I �rrl. i �al ®III _. 111 i Mr_ 1r4 y — ,/-' 7 1 i u / T e 1 — .rs —_� X44t' 1—r- If/ FID)I 1. Mr — I Proposed Land Use �alLer--- -''*711111111";4, Vs: I /I ',X v -rit jih, am-<-,i,o,:se -- i ,I; 1 I %��i7r'nim MD_L • J „,ct .— 7 . . r'I R-MD .. P/s i7,/,.A.,r - ,), 1 • , _ - I. ci r OF SMAROrEE .7 P/s ` I ..,t,,, ,I , , 111e1111/ 5j. 1 _ .coTT Q 4 8 RI 8 + $ 8 8 $ 8 0 T.H. 212 (Proposed) - Corridor Study.. LOCATION AND LENGTH: Proposed corridor runs from the intersection of Pioneer _ Trail and Audubon Road in Chaska northeast to a point on Chanhassen's eastern border, south of Rice Marsh Lake. Approximate distance: 3 miles. — FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION: Major Arterial (1987 Chanhassen Comprehensive — Plan. AVERAGE DAILY TRAFFIC: 31,000 - 41,000 (2005) East of T.H. 101 - .6. 6. — LIKE 1USAN ` �- `" 1 Q — of I ; • NICE r NSII li1 11 I Li., / t\" -T-T Wif C ii '� I ... , i , .._, ,.. 4,4. i ..,.., _ t.tm _ _ I r/ !g� �� LIKE j :PIRILEY 1 , 1 10 4,,,O...."- ; 0 11111,1111 , • AhiUiIUhiE I J _� - _1:.. • 1�— - - — `i s 1 'Z`) ' , "... z 1 36 - DESCRIPTION/PROPOSED TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENTS: T.H. 212 has been in the planning stages for over 20 years. At the present time, cities along the corridor are cooperating in designating the alignment through the official mapping process. Work is also about to begin on a new EIS for the project. T.H. 212 is planned as a four-lane divided freeway running from Norwood to T.H. 494. By the year 2000 the corridor is forecast to have 27, 500 households, a population of 71,370 and employment of 52,300. As these numbers indicate, T.H. 212 is important to both the City of Chanhassen and the southwestern portion of the Twin Cities. Plans for the Chanhassen segment call for 2-3 interchanges. Initially, interchanges are planned at T. H. 101 and at CSAH 17. Longterm, an intersection at extended T.H. 41 may be built. Chanhassen has been actively supporting the construction of T.H. 212 since the late 1970's. The City will continue to work with adjacent municipalities and state and federal agencies toward implementation of this project. PROPOSED LAND USE: The T.H. 212 alignment passes through both Chanhassen' s General Rural Use Area and Metropolitan Urban Service Area (MUSA). Within the MUSA area, land development will occur prior to 2000. Within the unsewered area, future development will be long term. T.H. 212 will pass through the MUSA area north of Lymann Boulevard. Planned uses in this area are responsive to existing land uses, existing roads and the planned intersection location. Exhibit A depicts planned uses in the MUSA area. Commercial, medium density residential and high density residential are shown adjacent to the interchange. In the General Rural Use Area, planned land uses are shown as a statement of long term policy. Long term is defined as post 2000, possibly even 2010 to 2020. Land uses along the unsewered portion of T.H. 212 will not develop until full urban services become available. Metropolitan Council policies advocate orderly growth. Consistent with those policies, the Chanhassen Comprehensive Plan links urban development with the provision of full urban services. Long term land uses in the General Rural Use Area consist of a mix of residential densities. As indicated on Exhibit B, higher densities occur adjacent to the T.H. 212 corridor and at intersection points. 37 • 19, ,,,,7/ MHO` `� �'� �+.OSI M/ ) , I , -.� �'� _ ,-; ,H I jI 11111 P 1 1 dh mall' ,` � ta . PM u - -- �LTF DR MEM- `� IOU IMP CM WV OP> I.. �/ . o . 4400 1 SIJ ,.,,,,,,,... ,o \,a ., ., --,-.1 — _ - ....... !-0:-----0--- imi r .ior lop J • .3 ts. ofS PIP int- HIGHWA 4%f . II1 It, , •',0- .011: ma INA I ral:4044fi L.,FIVI: L _ `._ ` P/• • s IND ■ ` :05.141* � ad•. ' Waal .0- c3' ' 0 `� ARRM — ' � Pio`s o J iii ‘ j LAKE SUSAN r ` dc i � 1 • UI tir �S ` R . f r I 1 Illi• / .R-LD - R-LD p 1ci •••x• ••••• ii•••• ••••••• •• m 0 / i ••••• o 4::N •• •••• • 2 i lif) 5 Q �•:o•••• :• I 0 •. •• •••. °C NIQ\ .• U • •• � • 1 � ( •. � rod • • `::•�••r . R-LDto : . co • 0• ..iii . - q\ •.. • •- c , • „,_ \ .;_ � Rf----- - • .-MD1 •______ z111 li a . . • ... •• .z • •••• Exhibit "A" Proposed Land Use ••••• 3 8 a • ;r:.;,= 111 - - __ a I is J z JO1-. �-- W11crLYMC?1V a. .LEVARD 1 Il R HD� ,7 . pi it � 111(11(cliarillio----- r R-LD of11 actorA _.. _%_i: - R-LD i L Z L ,,,, . R. 4. -HD , D L — __ !MD. illaiii, mow ilk, -: ..,/ 411,111111 _ r , -c) 77 1.--A 7 _ • -HD R- IN. 7 1 I tif, r 'C B(G F Exhibit "B" Proposed Land Use Ef - 10:: - .t , t FA RI/ PD ii 9 _ , , , , ;-1). : i 4i CITYOF CHANHASSEN • `\ _ 3 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Planning Commission FROM: Stephen Hanson, Planning Director DATE: March 30, 1989 SUBJ: Convenience Stores The following information is a summary of meetings with represen- - tatives of Amoco and SuperAmerica. AMOCO - Kris Kristufek 1 . Their facilities have a 20 year life. _ 2 . They have done market studies for gas service and what they have found that consumers .sant are the following: con- venience, near home ( within if miles) , located on the way home, clean, no dirty looking mechanics , do not want to be hassled or solicited for service, 24 hour service, when pay want to be able to purchase goods ( cigarettes, gum, pop, candy, etc. ) which are consumed before they arrive at their destination. 3 . The trend is for more self serve. Ten years ago self serve gas was not allowed in Minnesota. Now 87% of the gas sold in Minnesota is self serve. The other 13% is sold to people who are handicap, elderly, not mechanical or just don ' t want to pump their own gas. Amoco will pump the gas for handicap people if they have a handicap sticker on the vehicle and if they have 2 employees on duty. 4 . With aging population there may be more demand for more service. _ 5 . The needs for automobile service has changed over years. Auto life is 8 years. Spark plugs now go for 40, 000 miles versus chaning them twice a year before lead free gas. Maintenance has become less frequent, oil last longer, tires last longer, etc. Vehicles have become more "hi-tech" and thus require specialty service. Planning Commission — March 30 , 1989 Page 2 6 . Automobile care has become more specialized and the market has responded with the "auto mall" as in Burnsville. 7 . Amoco does build Amoco Certicare Stations with a minimum of 6 bays where they feel market is strong enough to support the facility. They feel their Chanhassen site is not large — enough and with Goodyear planning to open a facility in the Hanus building, the could not compete. 8 . Amoco stressed their main business is the sale of gasoline, where as Goodyear sells tires and related mechanical repair. Other auto specialty shops do transmission, tune-ups, detailing, bodywork, towing, etc. — 9 . The prposed Amoco facility contains approximately 400 square feet of retail space which allows for a limited range of pro- ducts to be mechandised. Their interest is to provide the impulse items consumers purchase when they pay for their gas. 10 . They do not feel they or convenient stores compete with gro- cery stores , nor will the opening of a grocery store offset their business. They have gone into centers with grocery stores and feel this is very compatible as the consumer goes — to both retail businesses for different reasons. The grocery store for major weekly purchases and convenience for gas and limited item purchases. — 11 . They locate where traffic exists and they can get good access . 12 . Regarding oil recycling, their concern is the liability of the self service drop off where they have no control of users and all the liability. They offered to donate the tank and install the tank for the city on city property for the use of residents. SUPERAMERICA - Bud Kaupp and Roman Mueller 1 . Automobile service has become more specialized in recent — years and as a result of the service industry has become more specialized. Automobile manufacturers have specified in warrant policies that any maintenance except ordinary oil, — fluids , etc. changes , need to be done by a certified mechanic or the entire warranty policy is void. Because of this none of the work is done by dealers, only specialty shops or ser- vice centers (Goodyear and Firestone) which have certified — mechanics. They noted some auto manufacturers have designed special hardware on their cars which require special tools to service the cars . Individual service stations can no longer — justify the costs to service the variety of automobiles which Planning Commission March 30, 1989 Page 3 — may drive in for service. Many service centers now have com- puter training and certification requirements for mechanics to service today' s computer controled automobiles. 2 . SuperAmerica has one full service station which is in Bloomington which they are opearting with licensed mechanics for certain types of automobiles. They mentioned the costs for this facility are high due to the equipment and labor costs . They recently purchased an engine analyzer which cost $30, 000. This particular site was zoned to only allow for gas with service and sat vacant for 10 years before they decided to put in their facility. 3 . They noted land costs for gas and convenience centers range from $250 , 000 - $500 , 000 per site. 4 . They noted towing has become more specialized and that towing is now being done by businesses that specialize in towing. This is due in part to the cost of tow trucks and the need to keep them busy rather then parked at a station for emergencies . Also, in order to minimize damage to cars, towing services are going to flat bed pick-ups for safety and because normal towing can cause damage to the vehicle. 5 . On oil recycling they are opposed to self service tanks for disposal of oil . There is no control as to what is placed in the tank and for spills. They noted that if an individual spills oil on the site, SA is responsible for the clean up and any pollution damage forever. Under EPA guidelines, the original polluter is responsible and subsequent purchasers of the land are only liable if EPA cannot get the original owner. 6 . They look for traffic volume and easy access when locating a site. If another convenience with gas is located at the intersection, they view this as positive. They have located adjacent to service stations, other convenience, auto walls and within a block of one of their own stores and both have been successful . If the market exists for their business they will build if not they won' t. 7 . Regarding defining conveniences stores they have no defini- tion. They do not view Amoco as a convenience store but more of a snack shop. The distinction being the size and products offered. SA offers approximately 15 categories of goods as opposed to Amoco which has about 6 categories . Their view is that both are retail businesses which are providing for the needs of their customers. 8 . They are opposed to the idea of minimum separation between convenience stores and generally defining their business as a retail use which is only allowed in limited zoning districts . Planning Commission March 30 , 1989 Page 4 9 . They would recommend the city establish architectural landscape guidelines to create the image the city wants to project and let business occur subject to the guidelines , — rather than having the city try to establish the market for business types with zoning. 13. They noted auto malls are becoming more prevalent and are also becoming more like a strip center in a "L" or "U" shape. They noted auto malls in Burnsville, Eagan and Brooklyn Park. FOLLOW-UP By the next Planning Commission meeting, I hope to have a summary of what some of the other cities in the metro area are doing with convenience, service stations and auto malls. PLEASE PUT THIS MEMO IN YOUR FOLDER ON CONVENIENCE STORES • tr r'r irj • ;so :11 :rcoup Inc. LafC Us Consultdr,ts March 30, 1989 Chanhassen Planning Commission _ City of Chanhassen 690 Coulter Drive Chanhassen, MIN 55317 • Re: Preliminary Highway 101 Alignment Study • Attention: Steve Hanson, Planning Director • As you are aware, Hoisington Group Inc. has been authorized to complete a Preliminary Alignment and Land Use Study for those portions of Highways 5 and 101 from the Carver County line to proposed State Trunk Highway 212. One of the purposes of the study is to establish an appropriate alignment connecting Market Boulevard to Trunk Highway 212. Another major purpose of the study is to look at Highway 101 as the south entry to • . Downtown Chanhassen and give consideration to a landscaped median . The latter objective was fostered by the City Planning Commission. Enclosed for your review are three alternative alignments for future "Trunk Highway 101. We would like to discuss them on April 5 and elicit some input from the Planning Commission prior to presenting them to the City Council on April 24. A recommendation of one of the alternatives by the Planning Commission would be appropriate input to the City Council. There will he public hearings on the Official Mapping of the selected alignment at a later date so the purpose of this preliminary review is to identify a preferred alternative. I will be available at the April 5 meeting to present the alternatives and look forward to your comments at that time. Sincerely, ti61-1 --)471.&4/i / Fred Hoisington Consultant 7300 Metro diva. Suite 52.5 F_plrld,MN 55435 1612)635-9960 i_—___J H_L_LILLF,,4,-• `r•]'2- '''`---,%-,---:i "-/-'2 -:•-•---* - . . e------•-:, --- ,... .cer-•,..- 1 .9 r— ---1 l_i!.....c.:1, L- ..,..; 1,--i--::'-...-- 1 ' ,gprp.,-4,1,,[ii,-_-••.' 71,-,;(1 -1 t---1 il...0' _ --:• --'..,:e:' ___fr.-'---r. - ---,--..•=:-".-- f---' ‘ -1 - ,,- ,-,,---.,-- '•,•(•;..11-irrl• ____-'• ----..•___,::.....---•—...... • „ , . - ..,„„,.... ./.:•„ V-,.., I kJ ......... :::-......."7.... . '....--‘ 'n\\ 1 •..% ' \, ' 7„:--" _„.,....-(-:;"\ i .r--':.- --,....r,--.-•:---.-:,-, 1. - ------rni. —_u-- . -d_s•--1 ,, ,\ 1, ' --.7.•;1-..:..:•;f•--- _. -?-..7.,,I.:C.'i '....,-.7...- •''' ,,..,- , !.- ' - \ '-'1'•':": --.....:W=:-;•:<•}..,,,,,y .:C ,,...3.1. ,,- -- 4...-•••"-i:"'se . ' '-;e' -:.''.-;g7,.. '(''' •• C''I0 1%, 11 • ____, ___I --1 11 • -, ‘..----.1 I ri CI -----;-•••---:. e ......, ,...-'''•••'.. 1 . 3. : , ' •••••'-1---- .::. ••.••••• ,..-' •*".- :--:•1„, i , "."*.c:31;:scojil '••--.7-7.•-•.;• '_'.....,-' -----.1 .---'•'-' ", ( 1.3 ., ........2,-.,-;;;;,..,.?•ec,•‹....',../..! ,,,,,,..:,•(Cr.:.1.---', 1.0 V "...9-7-4 -•:-- . j_....- ..?•-•,____..---- .... 1-1,4 . 1 - _. ... , _./.....-7 ..,' N'NN •'2-•• CI , t 41-1--( ci''N „-., • - 1 .,--•-.-. •-••1.:.:-:•-•-•-i _ . ,k,.\„er..,,,,,,00,00,,.7.74.) .„.„-_.;__...--yr. 4,::::\---,. ...:. ,0/71,-- -c.-.7,.: ',...° - • ..-------- ----... \ ---,VA' :1=3_, c:. ,.•-•,-.............r, , e •-i I '''''\ • •••••• . ....•••• - AV. ....---• Is i _ ..-_-3...-:-_-,-.-,----.....-.. -- ),_,.-s_ - - r--:- 7 - "`,.....__. ...----..___:__------- ...3 ---- .___,,,,,,. __,-•..r A ,_..,,.. .,...--•• ....... . '',. ..x . i _ . .••\ . ' -'---s'•-------:----- ----' ;.----------•"211 ---,1'-'4`-7•73''-c-l)( Ie="1=3'._,--I--'••°' .`.-•,-• ; , / ---------_. ''I v-z.--..-.;=s------- '' _) I F irt,----,N1 ‘-' . --t .1 -:-.--'----•-..ji -------•/----...„, -1 17„.:::.?•)i'tkL___•,,x_„_____.--:_i-,..1 N- -. ,::::.2,,,.,\\.. 1 _, ,_. ---- / - :i t -.. I ..• . .• .. .._," 1 • Ih7`.7.71 1 ....X.°. \. ... '---j.•" i5:2-•)• ' ---...-..&-71.'(< .tei-: 1 t" ' t,•')? lell k.k. . rt./ .j 1 -', 0 ',-.--:,‘-','-.. t`\...:-.'',..- .- ' '';', \ ''sk,lf-'•.' . I I `'-!.-..-.=;:i?•-'-ti•*_ -*--''''-•". -•'''..:• _-e, . 1 11'•'it -4V-7.::---7•-•'. /- _:. ..7.: ),-- 1- ri- rr-'-<. • '.. 1 . ...y.,c, ,....:, .1...' :;:,-..: o 4)/ . I j .,.., --c•^"•••••... -..„, • .., I -.. \ k... -,; -,1-,(-,-.7 yyk.„,--,:-,.'1. - ----:\\ • • • 1 - --`'Ny • \•,".7:7•7'' ' j '' ` .‘ ._ 'l - 't ' : j ,.. _ .. izr-;•,-, •,:i '•;,- ,-- ..- . ' I -;•\.. A . if.-17-- .74' • . -- y' _.••-•" , \-1 --'-.1"••3•-!•:•. '' • ‘••-- --\ ,-• • -, r Tj--_ ,. .__ ,. - .;. . I .., ve4-,...1,:. . ., .-•. .. r .. r • ., ,_..... \ •.... . --k ", \•:,.., •ss,,,,,,„ ..•,..,.- ........_.__il y •°' :'• ' •.,1 -' , • 1..t.;.;•: A - - ‘. r :---..-_-:...,5„.. \.--.---! P\-- --.. 7..i.:„.;..„,.,.---.. ..,;\ . „,.,.. - 11- . , • t.1- ---- -'-'3_ \ ' ----,.,......;--•'"'-tt I ' - ' I.— . t',4-•-•:,,,:-7,.I.11.,i}'••1 V --i-.... •'::--------- . i 's\ \7k,..:::*:4 ....•l'i 'il .‘".•- )4'k 1 {'.7.. ..'-.......-.. - to..• .1 : r....,...,,,, .A....,.. _.....,AVM 11141•0101, .." I ' 1...56:1; ÷Zirrr.•:V;:.;: .71ont : 1 1 i .11H 1 .. 4 - , - , ,-1/4-•----.. --:-..,_.- ....„:1 - • -...:(9./ - :.%•,.T.,y (\. .1,s1S.:1_ ...., I I - - J -=.-...... i TYPICAL SECTION S.. ..././.....1 3.37*1.!% ._, /Pi..Zif.... - •.., . ', . < : . ...._Xi, .:'...9....y_ ., .e.."•••• -7: --..__.••• ':. ; - 3 „g•-. :S 71 t..I. t f-i ' ;... ••X.C 1 3 • :,,,e.--•• ••-r-.••••i : ----e-' r-•-C-- -• * 3 ,._.--<•5-;) v,- ,.:-/.... 3 I. . ,"--N- . . .--' • ,,•/`-. - : :' .1.• .. . . - ...,. 1'..,-,•'-, -- 7 ..•. : _... , ?" %V.(.1/./...•••••-;..,..,.ef... /CNN) 1 CD' , " •••••••,,i4' V/"''''. .6,77/ .• •-• . .1: .. . ...:: - Ir' i ir\A34r rbr Ze... .,' \ ... •If•"/ , \-•-•'''• % •\ ......\ _/...\...,.:1 ....\.`. '..j,'.". ,.... ,'.....:,\\\.5.....,..„: . . .T.,CA -\\ ,••-/ ) ) ))) •%•• ---7-::;E:' ,.:---:•., ••••••)'7u -_ 1 - - • II ' • •••, ::!.:.-•,k•t* / 42•••;••e ,;"-4%.: • ""'- Pt-fr "c...'- •-• i. ,--;•••• - ';:n ‘- - -..-.. • - ..'%:0 '0•"•-lt • ,- -1...:. -l/ ,f ---4-1.---- ''. •e" :-;i-----i-' _ ...?-.-- k\I. • ‘,'It., . ••.L..2 1,...;;;; ;,,,.. - c*-±_:_-,-.!_:„.__`-,. . ---,- ---7 ',-4.1t,-;...-T,,-7=k•-•=4 : - • 1 !.-----;,,,y ,.n...--Ti... ...,:....,-f-, ...ty••. :-...:;.:;‘,..:„:„.7.3..ft_az.z...,:_--,7„...-.2.,,,12..,...„.:...:::-_4,..... ,!,............=,....:,-„--:::77,,,i.c.;.,, 1 ,, ._,,-•_-__,... __ F-70/Z-7-7-,,,-;-..- c-,____)-• ., .,0 :_j_.1;W:.?:::-,; , -3,-.:,-,i,'•-tlk,:.-41,.• • 6/ts..... • , I ...4 ---ii:,r-• ,:,c, t- (-- ..., : .m,.'i'l-f ll , -'' '1‘i.j. J,,----__ ,-,t, .... , 1...... r., ...,. ,,. . , ..... , . .,....,-,.....„.„., ,5, .,_, , . . ... _,.0,(•, r, - ....- pr A. • - fr g.. , - , 2____.‘„,„••• .•..... .. • ..„....,, qt„.:.:..,,,_ ..,,,\, •,. ,., _ ...,. ....„, . i , .nirt'-',',./1........-- .:, I' --'7=7:\•,,\...._.77*,\t-... .e f..;A‘-',.:e2-..:„.1:- ....•.f*,. V i r,L•i i 1-1;;;:47.-1- .. ?,• "'____,___--- -'''' .;k'l) '.-',...) X ;S-s-r,1)t h:•i e ) 1 IA "1 i)/ --- .... --- -,---. 10,-,,i f,. • ! i 1 .e.••t ••.;•,-/ - -•'' - - --,7---7:.-4 , -'.' ''\.-• ..-(... tk._ . ••--1,1 ''.•. ': •'--4141t1 ,1 , '''' :0 J : ,--,'--;-i) f - -,........:-.:•-- •,:- ',--•-------____- ..• - 1 --,---.. ,-))4.1 , . *on Am .' 43..r .ds el .V..1:. I 1 's . "-T ',---;--•-••• -•-.; r. - ••••,....-----=---•;" ..,-.-•-..- • -s, 1•:-.:•:,.: ,.._ 0, 11.....e,,-. ---, •_&\{53 .7"----V •e -. • ----:,,-. i --:"'"- -;--c.:":1>-.1 ',-'?-1:: :", • , .. i................„-i•------------"-• - -• . 3„,, .....„.1.0j.11....‘". 1.(‘-‘ J .i.i.,..1,:: I ,1,1:204(::. ,, , if •);, , .., . • =-1,......_, -.-- , ,'..,,,,U,I,," --- I.'I.---N •••,-/- , ,t,,,i,F. - . N•'! I •• -- •', ' i i, •*"'•-/-.:;',/ . ...-g-:--,---,7_._._i•-„ ,. • •- !, ----;,-"--.-1-•• ,NI ;•'",- , •/ .v-N .; . _ ).13 f---: . -••---:',, ,' r-:---,t-_" -- - • I), '.-- -- *./',-- sk x-•_.••••• ;I e'ti 1 ' ,<,1 • ---0 ‘,T.'i .. _ ,. r,_ -------.1-- -- .( . '-4-4.-ri;:-.....'.,' -..-771-1••k;-rie7*7- ' -1 '`..J.17.5."ii . .... ......,--=.---.21;;_g.--• ,....2,. IP-.::•; / • i--_,.% ,, • 1 i ' -* - r-x,s1, II, \. • '://-— ',./ T . .•- - 't. -:;..--- --..4 _.,..„ i i, ,y---- . <---. 1,, ..__,i r ,,i li . •/ --- /,----d •••"i ' . '4),-<-;-;,:i%-,'f•f0;>•-• - -• J' 1----*'•,-4-- ' -: i -- . 1., 1 •1----•••' --- --1 7, 0 - 'Zl • s -•• -- • --.7-•-• f - ,-: .4-' . -T,- A - i 1 s---=-1`,',e1 I r • i' •,--- • ' ' ' \ ' . -.I' - '' , ... . ..;,;-i ..y. ' • - 3 4,4 . . ,:. , ,„..., ,4.„.. .,,- , 4 , _ •I -. t,?", ''`.: ...4" .."..c- -,.., ,.? ' • . ., -'' • i----- ----- - • 7 )/!1, ) I i777--'....') tip• -- •;;1. ( r Draft ,. . , , ...,„,• _ „. .....-„,1 •. ./' •' ' f / ' •. , td11. - - • , .1•,.<:;',.j.'_, ! ../,., e, , , _. I 0 \\!...c-..,-..--.)A__•,,'i ...., . ‘...., 1. i CITY OF CHANHASSEN . r\iiii .. N '' - __,-....4...... • , _ 7— ____-_.' -...7:-.•-•=...=* 7"-7- I ____!....7=__.r.,„,,,.___-,7!•-_-,...„....,..7.c.:!...:.?"..-.:-.-ac:lire-". ---—--' HIGHWAYS 101/5 PRELIMINARY ALIGNMENT - - AND LAND USE STUDY .- • ,----_-__:....-Th--, ' - , ,:•1) i — ••- ALTERNATE 1 • • ,7-77-7/ \._.-/ \. .Hasington Croup Inc. ,/ I _.. . -_- - e ,_____,__, _,__• .-..• - - '1 -------• --r-------. r22-L'- ...... . •--.----. .... -'•'•' ''' ;.'. / • ' • ; I 1 , `-- .,• ‘‘'., / .. • . i " . .- •--...-. - •• ." • ',.....:.'' '''.- . • , I . -:) & ' ./'''' • i I • '"-'-•;....-1 .•-• ---"-.- ' •'• .)'4" :: ''• ! , ---"••• . .-..-.-,-,•.- ....•:),, 1,•/..s•/...../.-... '..f.--• ,! i immot • '0"1210 1-'0 L'"n.°13134/ /.'-1"•.;.; 4___. .. 1 ; . . - , L' CA-.7,-. -:-...c;f:;)>-.".",)\\""---- ------,7---" •-•- • '••.,%. =• .4 t " 1 ,.. ---------_-:"--•:--- -1, I 1 ... - \,..„..7-4_-:=.-.7,. ..---- ._- -.• ..„-,:„.....„-/..._. , _ -,. ,•:-.L.:-_---.-..--,.---..-_, • ,--i--..4.%f-97 ;‘,-* \' c 1'L.-. •:._ • --. .,.-_•-• ,...r.,.... ...• •__„.._........,-• , . . _•-•---.:-.7•:_,--".--i-i •,...--_-:-..::•,,,...-1." - r-- .1 V I --i -1 ------ ..,==::::--;-7---:..-,...c".!I 1 .j"--'.....-'".,-;.-c-).21,.,', ..,--4,6 c•I',:, ,. ."...--=....•••••;.--'=:, • ..........ti3-7,7".---;;;;;.--..---=-7.--7.,q1-‘•_n1,-.J.4.,...-'.fr'',..-. ,..,...>e;',1; .,' V.:74.--• -:),;- --7••:,--7--7---7.-:-. . I ' . „ .....---- - am. . .....,....ar.:•;11.--•.:..:.;:VV....51.1..::-_.I i E--• •:,,,2':.-::"; .r:c.6.:',....111.,,...7:-t CII X '1__.. .J-•C'' f-- . 0 1 ..1.---,.••:.."------ , - •- --. Tla 7).1"..••.../...--' \--,::;;.'•-...":" / s '' -r=;-..... ' -' - I . - .-•-•_:-:------- "", ,....„,„.----•.,'_-'''''.,z,:6_.;;;;/..... •...--,r _ !,,,-,-- L q i :••• _ . ,.....,;,_ I . • , 1/4-w---/:,-. . ,....i r`.' 1-,.'st=::: r--•!,) i • ..„--,--_-.7...-:„. • . - ___,-. • --• : .... .--- , ----• ., , t - ....._, . .-:•_._. ..„-___„•,,,,----__A-r.„-Izt,___---•,,... . .__:. ni ,__-_,. ..-_,:.•____..„.s....--. ....,...e.t,••••„4:21;,. .,,L..----____‘. . . ,.,..,,,,.......,:::..---. 1 i • : ‘........._ ......t. .: --------..-.__, ,74-----re•-_: .- •-liC.";;V•••.--._,•1!''47 ' :.-',"`c • •"--, --, • -------••----....._ - I i iiir•itt,..i...._:„. ,,.„....."--7.',...;;. __.„ ;...-...•\\-\...• • • 1 •• //...._ • _ . ..- ------------ i i;.• ,(‘‘ -7--:1-7-----z-(3:4---,:.1,_:..------, : t- -: 1 I Fr., ..-., , . • ,..._-_,-:-,-.. _ ‹,..,„ , A _,--- • ----..... ......i,,, ...:,.._...... ,__- ._...„ .....,_ .,......:, .,),)_-• - -' -- -il ..\ 1 , r,._. 7.,/ . ''... 7,----: • \\..,..j! 1 . •1‘...1,.,,, ---,.-7-F,--.2-.7.-r,,,,-;;;;.,7•-r.lt? i-L. ...._ ' .;iI)i- -i- :---11(.--7-1 .. \. .. --.---"f • ///1-.'-': ---2 ..... .- t 1 I . - • . 047.7---'1:...\',4,..,-;_\:::',,;..-..irr .-. ..‘ .... . • .- - . i , .:y•.'--...-‹...---1-2 r-1.-, .._- i,•.,_-, -- .. ).11)'' ‘\••-.-k ...,k.,\. ..'--.4>-•-It- - , , - N.-n ---- 7.-,*---•-+:-..-40.,41----:-.=_ -•i.--i-T , 1 L. . r ' .....- ., l r....--, \ , • '..,"/. 1. r- , 4 „.1 • Yr, - -• • , "•:- ••'-s•-eff.,,VO 0 _ .......j! , '.•._..-..,... • ...; .,--.•_-_-p•L__;1_ .....r."•:-----___- _ - . • •. • . , • , , . ••••„.. ei " - • ! i - . . , F's--- ----.---:':77.:;• ' --7,----:-------- •---L-- . . . . L. . ,...„......____L___ -44:-.);`,,,€:..t.`,..-c'4-.:,--- .1.-..:\ • vc--.: -------„. . --- -- i . -...-..,. .\„---...,1. / -- % • • I• ! i ,.....-_, f 1: ..•-........... .._,', .. -- C.II,Ate.1.110..., i.‘.- It . .1- ' - =`-•=7."- • ; 1 , II , L : N:-;.,,. --,- -_ i , . •:'- --4'.- ,• 1 , N . . .. 1 U.. Susan /[4 -‘,-,/, 7.\•--- . .. •.-" . .. - •i _• '••• !I - I-‘--rl...."...... . . ....1;-).'-ca \ •-.; .f •- • I -,7r- • , • .... „.....„.fr:i.-ti..„te?„. _j_ru„.• ._,... • . -t.L......... .r.,s . . , 7-k-j---. ' - ;• .0.7.---7 . :..- .,••• 1 ----"•:-.. : . ---'--1 * - e.,'':- •-.•,.;:,,::•:', 77., -,/.1* •- ' --::...._....\.. 1 . .k'-,...;•4!:'.--\..,:•z.-:- -.-J 1 iii r/- .--- t.,..s.-..,,,-„_.-: ,•:,---,.: -4-, .... .. • 6-Z- Ty PICAL SECT,ON :3.1.7 '. " .:4,1 '''' ''--'--"‘\ \ j 1 'I Z\• ‘t•C\,, . ! .. . tTVkl,f,:.4 / .I(;'':;......., , .,-.-Zr./ :.'. .,,.).: '',. N.. • "'"•::‘,;, .' •:r: 1 I '1::';••C.,..1.t.' 4 ,... '. ..ji / " \:•• ,,,,...'.. ..,...-..'.,....\.. -: % ....lin ., s .',,, • / \...' --...:'-.-n ...<4 .., ..; y ....i.- /.!..W1.-.. --- • .,....".-, \ZIk..." ".•,.-.-f,',\. I", .........- .."-- \-I) -... /.7r --7. `....."r--- •17" . ;.1\1;;;/:, SI•s:1".\', ."2-•.?'i.‘,t• -••••:.,•---'" .•' -- -='-`..._ :_-.,.____.- / '--_,/ ,,!_-_.:',. •-•-•,-..6 • :A. tr• .„' . --"----- -.•-:,-.8.-*" ---.'- •"..„---'it --'''Y4,1:E.;- :i: .. '•-...-•---;-7'::!-.;=-..:.--•-."-• -. , .•„f a WI- 7 -m ...71._ N__,:„_;=__-- ...,--' ,--7.-K........_)- --. . ....- -.„.77i-- •,..--=. •„, -.....:.... '.'-` ..'. ' • • ' I ':-/ e . •-•_ •-•..,:e--,--'N '-•-•-•'','=-7-. '>..', -:-7 ''' '* _-___%.'.*?.f Nil.'f''.".•;.' • :1:,,7.--:-,- --•'?4.,1. . I.: 1 r 2.,--it,---,---;-1- ee.r,• ;,-----2/,,-,-, -,-6_,..._ ,.:-----14'.-:,----c:) ' '''_='.--:t-';:. ••• -...-,---ir .-» ,,i,:v-,:...., , ir,, , A--z:ft--.-i"..:, .,-..- •-•, --0)-.',•2 ..,/.C.:44-a.--.7---•_ -...74:.7---5-7- .,, -."-C. !'`i..1„-•••••.., „ s-,,.:•.",:-',Id-'•'••.t.c:...----=-....2-.2211 . .1 gi..-710,...fiy• _ .-....7k II;1 7/.'''' ';'S'Lr__, ,..t.:?..., ..... \••:•/',..\--','",%.-- --S'...4^.y..,:'•:;;;!‘„...-11,‘„)•‘.‘'..-J ;:-',4t,4,-,t,':,•1...., i "••-'-' .". • 'I.;-0 r,------. 1-= 7 -_.;..., ---z, ‘,.4 • ...,--•:,..s•-c•---_,,:-e"-i--..r-- '-... 1•••••• --.•-•1. ....t,.. ...)- _..; . -. d.: .,_..,,--4,L:/--.,--- .1:-.;/.: ..-- \," •,---:-_, .--, - --1-* . -', -`',"1----- '.:•t\''._ ...,.. ..-/Y':1A•C;o-:••• . .... ., ':-' -i-t` \:-.- - % i---.40,C;z. ..'``.il...... ' •..5..r.i•-•1:;• 7,". ,,.• '); r;-- •'..- .---4 t-.....!_705-1_, .1 -9,i •I •7,4-1•V-' 1 ------- • - :C5 / i• - -3-0.-:-;(11. -./ ) --. .-.I;:..- .• ------ ___-/ .'•_;.--.7-_---.,,;.;_--- •\.;,*...,;:. II ,.. ''''',•, i- . iftdi A... , --e3. id,,''•'.'''•t'-,1: I .'-• e---'r-/'4Z, , L .......,._..... _ „0.;,;.,:t:,.. . . ...,..,_...,.., . ... .... ..• :: 1- .. ,) :-...... .7.- _......_„_.... - --1./.' . • • fr-T., . I II ... r, r,- - ,, - -..„ ,---„;. ------•!--....., ..- , -,-:...c.).„--r, j.• ....: - . ._ . , ,. „.....:- . -.....„ ,-,\.-._ /.--/ •r)., l'-+ v‘ it T:-'----"0-j. .- !I-- 0:7, : • . ,.. :. ..-a.A.y-'7.-K-,74-4-;;--•.• .41 --.- •IS.tr.'s'.J..N).. .1.-..''.:*•1 1 ..',.Zs•;•,-A.i • '71'-`-s-=-1!/ / ,i-- - .-- • 4 • ---''---':-.7-U----:--•,-------1 -- --);V:...F.-1-:,-- 10,, ,--,..,"%--i '.•- • _, _Jzii 1 - ,,-7 : ••... . . I 1.-,. .,.....-:-,,•.„....., , •., IT' ,y':.....7..-• - ,-- ' k't 1-,k 1.\.,-:.--,.,. ; , : , ,;t. , .•...; S '--,:,::„. i-,,It-:: 'j 7ej,e-.....,pici' . . / .) '1.1).''' '::.;'.1. ...../--9:,..) ' -..- ;I , 1 f '1-:::.' ; -.7,•'-±" .:::_`.:;;;;;;- _ • ••., i .----k '. • , ' -7',:,`".'"il -,''' . ,-^ • H:r...i..-- . - • -c----..... t ..L..---' . -.•- ! •f..:7 . -.' ..^. t•-,-- :-:-.).,--L- . .1 D1 •-_,., • - ,•:._..)..7. ,.!./.4 • 3--„ •, , 0. ---F• 1•,__ C 7--- '- . ---.- -- i , ----. 'm?,_4,- /- 7/ hi! _ • 7.- l'..-, . : I ! ,--...•/..-- .--:. . ` / „J 1 -.--, CITY OF CHANHASSEN J.,...... ••:•/„-% --vri i' 1..S't 4 - . --- - . 7...- 1 ,• , L.-: u-- e'-_- N i ---- - - -•.-------- ------- 1 1 HIGH'JAYS 101 5 PRELIMINARY ALIGNMENT I . . • .... _ AND LAND USE STUDY 1 I ' . . • ALTERNATE 2 I i- ..- I - .. -.* I ' Ho<snston Group Inc _} . • , • III I ';' ''•_. y ------ _ _ - • I�1 I �!. -!_r--kgs„-.. _ — -- i -. ;• . _ ,, ::;:-. .... _j .--mo is--, a'obi• ,` •�• �.-f�''1';-..' .so Y.-S�—:.•,{. �-e- . . • . N -.- • --X.' e\ , - ,, .,:), __ ________,:__,-a_.,. i . - • •,... \\ -• • .. • .._..... ... . . . ... _ . .......*_:__,.,. ,.__:...., .,, ,, (-----• ,--_,-,.:1-7-•-•• ;____! ....:. _ . _ • I 1 .,.,..,7L.....: "te: : - ui* Th çzt i I • �,,^._sem--. t r1 •-j T' L ••I -i...,,,_ _... .t.....__., . .........-,. ___.. 1. ' . 11 �... t; '. • �^ \..7,--_:-_-_,,',� ---1----=--.o J�y --- - - .- - .4)-"5.4..,:,-;_-=.1=A \A • N "'"i:- •• '!0" .*--/ ;f�11: =1 �- .• . ,,.,�•: ;ii r� i-.• ...\ ..s.....____fWf MN 11OwWrf . • a•. ( .Il l = a•?..c� ... a • w. 5.... --. z_ • \ 4 -- I I • /C:;7.�+�Q{- •J. (-tet 1 TMiCAL SECTION ,• 6S ^7 : �Q . . i , 7- 0 4 \ -•-•••• , - - --'r•::_ i; -__.-1 • 1 4;3 ' 1 I A --pk.:///- .. ..- ' ... .',* • .'s • ..) )•-• ..: .;: .° ' I ` '�, . ...-\•-s% . , .tet_ •1 r.� • \`i_ t 4 u �.,�J _ n r f •,,: /, '.r--,-;--.:71-'-;',.....5-r., �"t J,�.. aG.. 1.j.„. •:-W27/f-.7.-rt., ' EE17-r,, -C't: �- •• 1,('-.7-.., . .,9)_`,)‘1':F-.•'•,',‘ • 1: i' „.1 .... ...--, • . (F „......, _ro>a� �-�, Z...''-'i (" /J` '�.. .,'�; 1`11. , w� ry 4----.--_-7:7—.„.:... .c, a 1 4".....,7""_.... ...., '_ l 10;`,,1',: 5- , 4 r -,- -,`. •I,; •- '7� - .mil:„ ;17,(•••/0S, % ;.,\ ;} - �� , / _ J !' is , JJJJJ � / .% ' ala •t' I ��.J.,� �,I .�, �� I T� • — \• "�'\ („J •,� •i,, • CITY OF CHANHASSEN � (. t .''`� , : _ ., ---- - --.7••••:-7-....::-_,„'.'�-,.-_,_.,...-__-=,_-_- i HIGHWAYS 101 5 PRELIMINARY ALIGNMENT • --- ', AND LAND USE STUDY — �...r --:- �_ 1 I ' -- _•-_�.=z j - I I I ALTERNATE 3 ! l - j I. I( I • -• HOivnarOn Gtoup Inc. PLANNING CASES 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 — Appeals 0 1 0 0 0 Conditional Use Permits 20 14 4 19 18 — Land Use Plan Amendments 5 3 2 4 6 Litigations 0 2 1 1 2 — Planned Unit Developments 3 6 1 3 1 Rezoning 4 5 2 3 4 Sign Permits 8 22 14 10 19 Site Plan Reviews 5 12 4 7 19 — Subdivisions 26 24 31 33 27 Vacations 5 ; 6 9 7 — Variances 19 28 18 16 14 Wetland Alteration — Permits U 2 3 16 17 Zoning Ordinance — Amendments 0 2 6 8 18 95 126 92 134 152 • CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MARCH 1, 1989 Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7 : 35 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings, Annette Ellson, Ladd Conrad and Jim Wildermuth Brian Batzliarrived during the Eckankar public hearing and did not vote — on the first two issues . • MEMBERS ABSENT: David Headla STAFF PRESENT: Steve Hanson, Planning Director and Dave Grannis , City Attorney PUBLIC HEARING: SUBDIVISION OF 22. 8 ACRES INTO TWO LOTS OF 1. 9 AND 20. 9 ACRES ON PROPERTY ZONED RR, RURAL RESIDENTIAL AND LOCATED ON CHES MAR DRIVE (GROSS PROPERTY) CHES MAR FARMS REALTY. Hanson : This particular item, the applicant had talked to me prior to the meeting and I believe would like to address the Commission rather than going through the staff report . Actually I believe they would like to table the item. Tim Keane : My name is Tim Keane with Larkin, Hoffman, Daly and Lindgren , 7900 Xerxes, Bloomington. I 'm here on behalf of Ches Mar Realty. We _ appeared here previously in the matter of Ches Mar Farm subdivision. We have a couple of outstanding issues between buyer and seller. Hopefully we will have them resolved to everyone' s satisfaction and would respectfully request that this matter be continued to your next meeting. Conrad : Steve, in that case we don' t need to open up the public hearing do we? Any questions of the applicant? Dave Grannis : I think if the public hearing is scheduled for tonight and has been published notice of the hearing, I think you should open the hearing and then continue the hearing until your next meeting. That would be my recommendation. Conrad : Okay, we will open the public hearing . Are there any other — comments? Emmi.ngs moved , Wildermuth seconded to continue the public hearing on the Subdivision of Ches Mar Farms Realty until the next meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried . The public hearing was tabled until the next regular Planning Commission meeting. Planning Commission Meeting — March 1 , 1989 - Page 2 PUBLIC HEARING: CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A CHURCH ON PROPERTY ZONED — R-4, MIXED LOW DENSITY AND LOCATED 1/4 MILE NORTH OF HWY 5 AND WEST OF POWERS BOULEVARD, ECKANKAR CHURCH, PETER BECK. Public Present — Name Address Mitch & Janet Weaver Bloomington, MN Dave & Leneda Rahe 1021 Carver Beach Road Gail Kurtz Chanhassen Fred Koppelman Eden Prairie Tim Bollig Chanhassen Barbara Coldagelli Chanhassen Kathleen Wendland Chanhassen — Jeanne Burke Chanhassen Paula Whittiar Chanhassen Carol Nelson Chanhassen _ Greg & Sheryl Thornberg Bloomington David Pedersen Chanhassen Villager Matt & Laurie Hoffman Chanhassen Signe Karschnik Chanhassen Jim Pasek Hopkins Marion Ziegler Chanhassen Susan Johnsrud Chanhassen Bob Cunningham Chanhassen John Horsayer Chanhassen Madeline Hickey Chanhassen Glenn & Bonnie Hageman Chanhassen Dan & Marilyn Mahady Minnetonka Roger Downing Chanhassen Lee Valle Chanhassen — Rev. Dan Peterson Chanhassen Tim & Carol Vadnai.s Victoria Todd Casey Victoria _ Bobbie Krespard Chanhassen Ross Kamed Chanhassen Dave & Diane Quackenbush Chanhassen Carol Barrett Chanhassen — Dawn Opitz Chanhassen Julia Pims Chanhassen Carol Watson 7131 Utica Lane — Ken Groen 7329 Frontier Trail Alan R. Johnson 1044 Pontiac Lane Bill Boyt 7204 Kiowa Circle _ Hans Skalle 8071 Santa Vera Drive Gordon J. Nagel 514 Del Rio Drive Jim Eastling 7285 Pontiac Circle Jean Way 7126 Utica Lane — Robert & Marjorie Anderson 7090 Tecumseh Lane Kenneth Horns 111 Third Avenue So. , Minneapolis Alan Leirness 608 2nd Ave. So. , Minneapolis — Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 3 Name Address Jeff & Julia Farmakes 7100 Utica Lane Aleta Lownsbury 8000 Dakota Avenue Janice Duininck 8000 Dakota Avenue Mavis Eiler 7000 Shawnee Dawne Erhart 775 West 96th Street — Bill & Kathy Engebretson 7120 Utica Lane Pat Albrecht 6951 Tecumseh Lane Jim & Judy Landkammer 6901 Utica Lane Janet Lash 6850 Utica Lane Barbara Klick 7116 Utica Lane Greg Blaufuss 7116 Utica lane Dan Lutenegger 111 Third Ave So . , Minneapolis — Charles Rickart 111 Third Ave So . , Minneapolis John Shardlow DSV Inc. , 300 1st Ave No . , Minneapolis Jim Larkin 6671 Minnewashta Parkway Peter Sussman 300 1st Ave No. , Minneapolis Barry Warner 111 Third Ave So. , Minneapolis Ronald Krank KKE Architects , 300 1st Ave So. , Mpls . Tom Barrett 7051 Redman Lane Tim Keane 7900 Xerxes Ave So. , Bloomington Steve Hanson presented the staff report. Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order . Rober Hoffman: Mr . Chairman and members of the Planning Commission , Robert Hoffman, 1500 Northwestern Financial Center . I 'm an attorney with the firm of Larkin , Hoffman , Daly and Lindgren and we represent the applicant, Eckankar i.n it' s application for a conditional use permit as a church. We do have a substantial amount of material to present to you and we will present to you the drawings and sight lines and a number of other — matters to assist you in making your decision. Two lawyers in our firm have been working with me on this matter and I 'd like to introduce them. Mr . Peter Beck who is over here and Mr . Jim Larkin who is sitting over in this area. Very briefly, our firm has had the opportunity to spend a considerable amount of time on land use matters in this metropolitan area over the last 25 years primarily representing people who want to develop land . Through that experience we' ve become reasonably familiar with the requirements of the cities i.n the metropolitan area as to either zoning or conditional uses and advise our clients to comply with those condi.tions as set up by the various communities . We' ve had experience that range from residential to stadiums in downtowns to megamalls to restaurants and to _ industrial buildings and to churches. Most members of our firm have experience i.n the City of Chanhassen. Two or three developments that we worked on, the CPT development, the McDonalds restaurant, Fox Chase and some others . I indicate that to you so that you have a background as to how we approach the land use matter. It is also combined with some experience from the public sector . For example, I had the opportunity to — spend 14 years on the Bloomington City Council and 7 years on the Metropolitan Council and had the opportunity to chair the Physical Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 4 Development Committee which produced the development framework under which all the comprehensive plans in all the cities are governed. That may be _ good or bad , depending on how you look at it . Working on this project with us have been a number of consultants and professionals who I 'd like to also introduce at this time. First is Mr . Ron Krank who is an architect and is a co-founder of the firm of Korsunsky, Krank and Erickson — and has been practicing architecture for the last 26 years. Has been involved i.n over 1, 000 buildings throughout the country. Also has experience in Chanhassen and his firm has worked on the Press, Instant — Webb, Redman Products and several others. They' ve also had extensive work on churches . They' ve been in charge of the 10 year plan for Mount Olivet Church and he was the lay leader of the Temple of Israel ' s 4 million dollar addition recently. Assisting him has been Mr . Peter Sussman who is also here. Mr. Dan Lutenegger who is a principle with the firm of Barton- Aschman has had 14 years experience in environmental analysis and related matters and has been involved in the voluntary EAW that we have submitted to the City. Mr . Charles Rickart who is back there is also with the firm of Barton-Aschman and has a Bachelors degree in Transportation as a transportation engineer and prepared the traffic analysis that has been — submitted to the City. Mr. Barry Warner is also with the firm of Barton- Aschman . Has a Bachelor degree i.n landscaping . Is a Landscape Architect . Has 12 years with that background and has produced the landscape plan for the church . Mr . Ken Horns is also with the firm of Barton-Aschman and has — a civil engineering degree from the University of Minnesota and has been practicing civil engineering for 8 years and assisted us in the erosion control , sanitary sewer systems and utilities part of the plan. Mr. Ken — Horns is also with the firm of Barton-Aschman and has also been assisting us i.n the development process. The consultants that I ' ve just reviewed with you helped us prepare the voluntary Environmental Assessment _ Worksheet which was submitted to the City and addresses all of the environmental matters that would be involved in a development of this type. In addition to those professionals , we have submitted to the City the opinions of two other professionals who I 'd like to introduce at this time. One is Mr. John Shardlow. Mr. Shardlow has a business degree in landscape architectur . He specializes i.n urban design. He' s a principle in the firm of Dalgren, Shardlow and Urban. Has been a planning consultant in many cities in this particular area including several surrounding cities and has also had the opportunity to work in the city of Chanhassen. He has rendered an opinion which we have filed with the city of record as to the use of this property and it' s impact under your ordinances from the viewpoint of a professional planner . Land planner . Finally Mr. Alan Leirness who is the Vice President of Robert Bobli.n and Associates and is a professional appraiser and has appraised real estate in the city of Chanhassen for over the last 8 years. He has submitted to the city his observations as a professional planner as to the lack of a detrimental impact of this particular development on surrounding — properties . What we will present to you this evening is a summary of the material that we presented in our application which is a part of the record of the city. The statements of the professionals I 've introduced have been submitted to the city and are also a part of that particular — record . We will review with you the background of Eckankar in acquiring this piece of property. We will review with you the physical plans for the church and you ' ve already heard the staff ' s report which is part of — Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 5 — the record and we will not comment on that . All of the professionals then will be available for questions that you wish to raise. The following have been submitted to the City and we want to note them as part of this record for your consideration and I believe you should have had the opportunity to have received copies of these but in the event you haven' t, I wanted to just identify them. The first i.s our letter to the City of January 29, 1989 which accompanied the conditional use application. — Second is our application itself. The conditional use permit. Third is the certification of Peter Skelskey to Ministerial Credtials on file in Hennepin County to perform marriages. Fourth i.s the requirements for a conditional use in the city and our compliance with each one of your standards and criteria. Next i.s a copy of the title for the Eckankar property showing the church holding the title to the property as owner . Next is a voluntary Environmental Assessment Worksheet prepared to assist you i.n evaluating public utilities , drainage, transportation and environmental matters and other items related to that. Next we've submitted you a complete set of plans on an 8 1/2 x 11 format which is — required by your ordinance. We' ve also submitted a photocopy of 2 or 3 pages from a publication used in universities entitled Religious and Spirtual Groups in Modern America which is the 2nd Edition of that publication . Originally published in 1973 and republished i.n 1988. The material we ' ve furnished you with is from the 1988 publication. We' ve also submitted you information that Eckankar is a tax exempt religious organization under Section 501 (C) ( 3) of the Federal Internal Revenue Code . — We ' ve also submitted to you evidence that Eckankar is a church under Section 170BIAi of the Federal Internal Revenue Code and under Section 1. 511-2A3ii. of the Income Tax Regulations . We also submitted to you evidence that Eckankar Priests are authorized under the laws of the State of Minnesote to solemnize marriages . Eckankar has over 290 centers throughout the world . It currently has members in 92 countries internationally. It has had a local center in the Twin Cities since 1973 and was first located in St. Paul and now i.n the last 14 years has been located in the city of Minneapolis . In 1985 Eckankar purchased the subject property which is at the intersection of TH 5 and CR 17 for the — purpose of relocating it ' s international headquarters from Menlo Park, California and establishing an adminstrative campus in the city of Chanhassen . That proposal was made pursuant to the then designated plans by the city for that piece of property as what 's known as a business campus . That designation had been placed on that piece of property at the suggestion of a prior owner or contract purchaser . That concept plan which was submitted in 1985 included an adminstrative office building , — design, graphic, audio visual and publishing facilities and that concept plan was approved by the Planning Commission of this City and the City Council in 1985. Eckankar subsequently withdrew that request for that use — on that particular property and located it ' s international headquarters in the city of New Hope, Minnesota where it has had it ' s headquarters since that time. Chanhassen rezoned the Eckankar property from planned residential development to RSF, R-4 and R-12. However , your comprehensive plan still carries the designation of campus business land use for that particular piece of property although it' s our understanding that it' s been the intent of the City to change that comprehensive plan use to — residential also to be consistent with your zoning. Churches are conditional uses under your ordinance in a residential zone. Churches are Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 6 also allowed in campus business category of your ordinances. In the event there' s a conflict between the ordinances of zoning and your comprehensive _ plan , Minnesota Statutes provides that zoning controls. The church itself will be a building concentrated to religious worship. People will join together in public worship under the direction of a person authorized by the laws of the State of Minnesota to solemnize marriages . The church will have a 800 seat sanctuary, a caretakers residence, classroom facilities and other areas detailed on the plans as submitted. All as permitted by your zoning ordinance. Office space will be provided only — for the adminstrative staff to serve the everyday needs of the church. The international headquarters will stay in New Hope, Minnesota . The first visuals that we'd like to show you will be the general location of the church on the property and thereafter some sight lines and viewsheds — from various surrounding areas of the property. The church design itself and some characteristics of the church building. The parcel is 174 acre parcel . The church would be located virtually in the center of the — parcel . The gross square footage of the building is 48 , 000 square feet . It' s a single level building with a walkout lower level . This is the site which we indicated is 174 acres . The top is the north and to my left is _ the west. That' s Lake Ann. The bottom of the visual is the south and then to the right is the east . That ' s CR 17 shown in that direction. TH 5, Peter if you' ll show them TH 5 and then the entrance to the park. The church you ' ll see is virtually in the center of the facility and to — the bottom of the church is the parking area. As I indicated, the site is 174 acres . The building will cover 7/10ths of 1 acre or approximately 4/10ths of the site. The amount of impervious coverage will be 5.7 acres or approximtely 3. 3% of the site . The parking area , which you see below the church proper is 2. 3 acres or approximately 1. 3% of the site. There will be approximately 20 church employees during the day. The sanctuary _ will seat approximately 800 persons in the sanctuary part of the church . The number of parking spaces are 276 which comply with the ordinance of Chanhassen and including handicapped parking spaces , that will be approximately 290. Under the definition of height in your zoning — ordinance, the church has a zoning ordinance height of 36 feet. The actual height of the front of the building is appoxi.mately 50 feet and at the walkout level it' s approximately 65 feet but your zoning ordinance — uses a formula for measuring height based on setback and configuration and according to your zoning ordinance, the height is 36 feet for the purpose of your zoning ordinance. Setbacks from the property and Peter if you' ll point these out, from the east is approximately 3 blocks. 3 city blocks. From the west , from the lake is approximately 3 1/2 city blocks over to the park area. To the north it ' s approximately 6 1/2 city blocks and to the south it' s also approximately 6 1/2 city blocks . Access to the — property would be off of CR 17 at that location as indicated by Mr. Beck. We have some additional studies now which we will review with you . The first is an overall graphic to show you certain sight lines into the _ property from surrounding neighborhood areas . Peter if you ' ll point out the location of the church and we are going to take you through several sight lines starting in the lower left hand corner of the visual which is approximately the entrance to the park. The next area that we' ll show you — will be at TH 5 and CR 17 and then we' ll move up to approximately the entrance to the church facility which you see up there at number 4. At the top you' ll see number 5, from the northern area of the neighborhood . — • Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 7 We will show you both what we call cross sections that cut across showing you the height according to scale of both natural conditions and the church and any existing buildings that may be off of the church property. Along with those cross sections , we also have used what' s called a computer aided device in which we simulate with the architects the views from those same locations and those will be shown. After that, we will take you onto the site and show you graphics related to what are shown as — item 6, 7 and 8 which bring you up closer to the building and then we will show you some renderings of the building itself. The top is a view, cross cut from the northern part of the property. Unfortunately the screen isn ' t wide enough but on my left you' ll see a home which i.s difficult to see on this visual but it ' s to size, looking through, as I said, approximately 3 1/2 blocks to the church . The trees that you see are trees that remain on the site. Are on the site and are to scale. The — next visual takes you as a cross cut from the property to the east and shows a 2 story home and again shows approximately a couple blocks distance and the church as it relates to that particular house. The next - visual is , that middle one is from the east again. From the driveway and takes you in , it looks across the site from the driveway into the site . The last visual is one that comes from the lake side through the trees that remain and shows you the church in relationship to the trees and the lake. The topography that you see i.s the existing topography as it will remain after the church is constructed . This is the entrance to the park and this is, as I say, a computer generated model to scale that shows how — the church will be viewed from the park entrance. Peter is pointing to the church. The next slide is from TH 5 and CR 17. As you come over the railroad bridge, that' s CR 17 going in and the church, we' ve highlighted in the background as you can see. Peter Beck: This one would be at the intersection. The next one should be from the bridge. Robert Hoffman: Alright. This is from the entrance into the facility. The entrance sign and behind the trees you ' ll see the church. This is — from the north part of the property looking towards the church and those are existing trees and the church is in the background. This is a site plan of the church itself with the entrance coming off of CR 17 into the property. The parking facility and the church facility. We have some cross sections that relate to views on the property itself. These again are the same cross sections we had before. The first is a cross section showing you coming in the entrance driveway and it shows a car entering — into the driveway of the church. The next is through the berms on the parking lot . The parking lot, Peter if you' ll point out where the parking lot is and you' ll see the berming that surrounds the parking lot. The - next is a cross section in the parking lot itself and illustrates the berming and landscaping. The particular light standard you see was the light standard with the original application which I belive was like 22 feet. Staff has recommended that be lowered to 17 feet and we have since modified it and lowered it to 17 feet . The last one is another cross section through the parking lot showing the berming that will surround the parking lot itself. Then very quickly we will show these CAD produced — graphics from those virtually same locations. This one again i.s half way up the driveway going to the church facility. The next one is halfway Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 8 onto the property looking at the church through the parking lot. The third one is again half way on the property looking up from TH 5 so we' ve _ about 3 blocks into the property at that particular location. If you will back up to the site plan. The church has been sited to take advantage of all existing grades so the minimal amount of earth movement will be required and the least amount of disturbance. The church wants to sit in a natural area and the original concept of the church several months ago was further to the north. In that particular locations, we would have been removing some mature trees and the church decided therefore to move _ it further to the south so as to not to disturb any of the existing trees on the site. None of the existing trees will be disturbed by this particular development . Traffic circulation is by the way of a two way drive entrance with a drop off door at the entrance of the church and as — I indicated , including handicap parking , 290 parking spaces . This i.s in accordance with your ordinance. Is in excess of what we expect will be utilized but it does comply with your ordinance. There are service drives to the north and east sides of the building. One is, there' s an internal trash container and the other is to the caretakers garage. Lighting has been designed to comply with the City Code and extensive landscaping has been provided . We have described that landscaping in the EAW and if you have any questions in regards to it, our landscape architect is available . Next, Tim if you' ll go to the rendering of the church itself. This is the architectural design of the church. We have the material board, Ron if you will please . The colors are going to be a neutral colors of Kasota stone, which is smooth Kasota stone. It' s a rough Kasota stone and some architectural masonary as you see on the particular development plan and — drawing. The roof as recommended by staff will be matte and it will be of that beige type of color . Accent will be by the dark color that Mr . Krank is pointing to. As to the interior part of the church, which incidentally is not part of the conditional use requirement but we will run through it very briefly for you anyway. If you ' ll flip to that church. This is the main floor of the church . I ' ve got too many years on me to be able to read that but the sanctuary and then the chapel and foyer which have — . provisions for robing for bride and groom for marriages and a coat storage area. Around the sanctuary are some religious classrooms and a religious reading room. To my left are some of the offices of the religious staff _ and the administrative staff. As I indicated, the church will not house any publishing facilities . Those will remain in New Hope. There will not be a theological seminary on site. There will not be a daycare center nor any of the other prohibited uses under your zoning code. The lower — walkout level , this is the lower walkout level which has a fellowship hall and kitchen. There i.s an employee lounge. There i.s a children activity area . Caretaker ' s apartment and a caretaker ' s garage and miscellaneous — storage and mechanical areas. The only living quarters on the premises are the caretaker ' s quarters . I think that ' s the end of the slides . Your staff has already reviewed with you it' s report and has reviewed with you _ as to how the application complies with the ordinances of the City of Chanhassen. We have submitted to you either yesterday or this evening our letter in response to the staff ' s recommendations for 15 conditions. That letter is part of the record. We have already prepared and revised the — plans' to be consistent with those 15 recommendations and I 'm going to briefly review those with you. The first was to add trees to the center landscape islands with the parking lot . We are adding and will add, and — Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 9 the plans reflect that additional landscaping which will comply with the recommendation. Condition 2 was the curb, the parking lot edge where head in parking stalls are shown . Our response i.s we will comply with that recommendation and Barton-Aschman has revised the plans to show the requested curbs . Condition 3 was that the entrance sign not be illuminated. We never intended to illuminate it but that does not show on our plans so now we' ve specifically noted it on the plans that the — entrance sign will not be illuminated. A fourth condition was to reduce the lighting poles to 18 feet in height and we have now reduced the lighting poles to 18 feet in height. To meet safety standards, we've had to add 2 additional poles in order to get the necessary flood for those lights and our lighting plan has now been revised to provide for those additional lighting poles and to reduce the height . Condition 5 is the roof material have a matte finish and not a glare. The roof material will — be non-reflective. It will have a matte finish and it will have a non-glare finish. Number 6, the exterior of the building not be bathed in light, was the phrase , and we have talked with staff on that particular - matter and staff confirmed that they did not want the building bathed in light . The building will not be bathed in light . There will be some building illumination around the entrances for safety purposes and there will be some very low level illumination around again , primarily for safety purposes, around the church itself so it ' s very typical of many buildings you ' ll see in the city of Chanhassen as far as low illuminated light around a building of this nature and complies with the standards set — forth in Article 6 , Section 17 of your zoning ordinance. Condition 7 is that the proposed island at the entry should not extend into CR 17. Barton-Aschman has revised the plan so the island does not extend into CR 17. Condition 8, it was that the plan be presented showing the proposed road grade and cross sections and identify why a large radius was needed at the entrance and reduce the radius to less than 50 feet. The plans have been revised . The radius i.s reduced to 50 feet and detailed road — plans and cross sections will be submitted to both the City and the County with the construction permit applications . Condition 9 is that the turn lanes be required on the entrance and should also include a turn lane — design details. Our response is turn lanes are being provided and the plans will specify the dimensions of those turn lanes and those specific details will be submitted both to the City and to the County. Condition number 10 is the applicant be required to submit construction plans and specifications for the installation of watermain and sanitary sewer lines to be approved by the City Engineer . The utility plans now incorporate the City Engineer ' s recommendations that the sewer line be sized to 8 — inches and again, detailed construction plans and specifications be submitted both to the City and the County at the time of the construction application permit. Condition 11, runoff calculation be submitted to conform with the pre-development runoff criteria of the Watershed District and City are being complied with. The runoff calculations now confirm with the criteria requirements of the Watershed and the City will be complied with. Condition 12, a drainage easement be dedicated to the City '- in accordance with the attached legal description and sketch to accommodate storm water runoff. The Eckankar will provide a drainage easement sufficient to accommodate all the drainage from it' s property. If — a larger drainage easement i.s necessary to accommodate off site drainage, that will be provided pursuant to typical compensation for a property Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 10 owner carrying off site drainage . Condition 13 , necessary permits from the County and Watershed District be obtained and complied with prior to — construction and we will obtain those prior to construction. Condition 14, a roadway cross section be submitted for review along with a skimmer detailed plan . The skimmer detailed plan has been added to the plans and i.t meets the City requirements for construction permit including a cross — section of the roadway. Finally, condition 15, applicant use Type III erosion control . The plans have been revised to specify Type III erosion control . In addition to the 15 conditions that were highlighted by your — Planning Director , the Fire Inspector recommended 6 additional requirements and we are telling you on the record that we have submitted information which we comply with all those 6 requirements as requested by your Fire Inspector . If there are any further recommendations that — address the conditional use made by you as a Planning Commission and the City Council , we will incorporate those in the design plans before the Council reviews the development. Members of the Commission, that is our — presentation . As I indicated at the beginning of my comments , we have asked the City to incorporate into your record for your review and the City Council review, all the written material that we've submitted to the _ City. We will be submitting all of the graphics to the City in a form that can be kept in your records and we have submitted all of the statements of our consultants that address all of the matters that are necessary for acting upon a conditional use permit . I know that you have — a number of people here that want to comment on the application, and we' re available for questions . Do you have any questions at this time? Conrad: I think later we will. Just to review what I said in the beginning , one of the things that we do here as Planning Commissioners is we help design the guidelines that we use for Chanhassen to grow and those _ turn into ordinances and other types of vehicles like that . At this point, we' re going through , we' re measuring an application to those guidelines . Those legal guidelines. If you were paying attention, our City Staff went through the 12 points that we legally have to review when an application comes in. Those are how we measure whether an application meets or fails our guidelines. So tonight , the Planning Commission will be looking at those 12 points and seeing how the application measures up. — I know you don' t remember all 12 and that ' s our job to look at what the staff has recommended but as you recall , staff did recommend that the applicant met all 12 of our guidelines that we legally can enforce in this or any particular conditional use process . So as I open up the public hearing , I just want you to remember that we' re going to be taking your input and balancing i.t or , not balancing it but measuring it against those particular guidelines that will influence our recommendation tonight . With that aside, I think we will open it up for public comment . Again , what I 'd like you to do, I ' ll call on you. I would like you to take the podium. State your name and address and we will listen to your comments . _ Leneda Rahe: Good evening City Planning Commission and service of Chanhassen . I 'd like to present a petition to you. My name is Leneda Rahe. I live at 1021 Carver Beach Road and I ' ve been a resident of — Chanhassen for approximately 2 years . I 'd like to, at this time also, before I present the petition, present some concerns and some information . I believe that a lot of the people here at this meeting do not know a lot — • Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 11 of what has happened prior to this meeting and I would like to just give a brief summary. Eckankar purchased the property in 1985. They came in with a proposal for their international headquarters and at that time the property was zoned for residential and they did not meet the zoning — requirements . They then settled their headquarters in New Hope . They had moved here from Menlo Park, California. In that timeframe, between then and now, they have obtained the tax exempt status they did not have before - which has qualified them for this title of a church. Now they have come back with a proposal which is allowed in the zoning regulations . The 174 acres adjacent to Lake Ann Park has been considered by the community to be a very valuable plot of land for our needs since we are a growing community and we would like to ask questions about that because most of us had thought that it had been a possible site for a community center. Many of the people here had no idea that Eckankar owned the property or who or — what Eckankar was. I feel that they have a right to know who Eckankar is and I would also like at this time for the requirements to be reread . Just number 1 if possible. Could you reread number 1 for me? Conrad : Will not be detrimental or endanger the public health , safety, comfort, convenience or general welfare of the neighborhood or the City. - Leneda Rahe : That is one that I , as a member of this community, would like to contest and I feel that many of us here would like to contest that our comfort and the safety and our health might be affected by the — settling of Eckankar. Many of you when you came to the door tonight were offered an information pamphlet . There are quotes there about Eckankar themselves which clearly call them a cult. They deny they are a cult. A cult means group or sect deviating from society' s norms or values according to the World Book Encyclopedia, Copyright 1988. Also, occult means secretive and they are that . They' re founder , Paul Twitchell who is now deceased, has clearly called them this in the quotations that you see — from their very own writings. After Paul Twitchell , their founder , died in 1971 or 1974, their new Eck Master, which is Darwin Gross , married Paul Twitchell ' s wife Gale and then he became the Eck Master . An Eck Master is - someone who, as you also see, they completely surrender to him and he is the only path to total freedom. The reason that I mention this is because they also have relayed information to us which I feel is dishonest in saying that they do not have any mind control involved in their organization. That, I feel , would be a health hazard to us. First of all , dealing with the fact at hand, I feel that we need more information from them regarding many issues. We have a lot of people here who would — like to speak so I won ' t tie up the podium any longer but on behalf of the residents of Chanhassen, each of you will be receiving a petition. One of the, also I feel one of the reasons for having a church in a community is to meet a need which already exists . As we had made available to us through the Chanhassen Villager a quote by Peter Skelsky, a priest of Eckankar , he noted that he would be here to serve the Chanhassen are and the metropolitan area. As I ' ve been talking to the people of the community, I have yet to meet an Eckankar member who is here that needs to be serviced and we would like to contest that also because we feel that, and we know that it is not going to meet a need which already exists in — our community. Especially since they' re a tax exempt organization and all of us know that we are the third highest of a 150 some suburbs in the Twin Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 12 Cities as far as tax . We are the highest taxed , the third highest taxed and we will be paying for other property taxes for 175 acres for a _ facility which does not meet any need of our community. That is exactly what the petition states. Bill Engelbretson: My name is Bill Engelbretson. I live at 7120 Utica Lane and we' re an adjacent property owner on the north side of the Eckankar property so we' ll see the view of the pyramid as shown from the north. I guess my real concern is that, as shown my this meeting tonight, — people are going to think there are unusual things going on out there and our property abuts on it and when I come to sell my property, people aren ' t going to want to live there . Directly adjacent to it. I disagree with the staff. I think it' s going to have a real adverse affect upon my property value . Fred Koppelman : My name is Fred Koppelman . I live at 18890 Deerfield — Trail in Eden Prairie. I don ' t live in Chanhassen. I 'm a friendly neighbor and I 'm here because I am very concerned about the affects of Eckankar church moving here. I guess I feel if the Communist Party USA _ were to come here to locate , I 'd be bothered about that . If the Ku Klux Klan would come, I 'd be bothered about that too. If the American Nazi. Party, I 'd be bothered about that too . I think it ' s the effects that it would have. They physical plant, looks beautiful and I 'm sure that' s no — problem at all for any of us . But as a neighbor , I live just across the line and I would urge you to think very carefully about this . Janet Weaver : My name is Janet Weaver . We just placed an offer on a home last night that was accepted in Chanhassen and we were not aware of what was happening . We learned about this today. I have a question regarding the church growth of Eckankar . I understand that their membership is currently 400 and they are building a sanctuary that should house about 800 and that indicates to me that they do anticipate church growth. What will they do when they reach capacity? Do they plan to expand at that — point? They certainly have the acreage to do this . What are their purposes if they meet their capacity? Conrad: Mr. Hoffman, do you want to respond to that? Robert Hoffman : Mr . Weaver is correct . There is approximately 400 members of the Eckankar church. However , that doesn' t include their — families so it ' s being designed initially to accommodate the 400 members and some particular growth. As I indicated , there are 290 some centers around the world . There ' s already a center in the city of Minneapolis and the current plans are for no expansion of this particular facility at this particular time . Gordy Nagel : My name is Gordy Nagel . I did not come with a planned speech so if I stumble a little, you have to bear with me. I would like you to read the, of the 12 requirements , requirements 1, 2, 6 and 11. Could someone read them out loud please? — Conrad : I can . One is , will not be detrimental to or endanger the public health, safety, comfort, convenience or general welfare of the — • Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 13 neighborhood or the City. Two, will be consistent with the objectives of the City Comprehensive Plan and this Chapter. Six, will not create excessive requirements for public facilities and services and will not be detrimental to the economic welfare of the community. Eleven, will not — depreciate surrounding property values . Gordy Nagel : I contest all four of those. Madeline Hickey: Mr . Chairman and Commission. My name is Madeline Hickey. I live at 6990 Utica Lane and I am also adjacent to the property to the north . My big opposition is number 1. My second is it will hurt my property value. Number three, Lake Ann, we' re so worried about our children . We' re so worried about the expansion and I think our City should buy that land back. It' s perfect. Right next to the park and we' re — going to need more space. There was a meeting last night of women baseball players that can' t play baseball here anymore because we don' t have the room at Lake Ann . I don ' t think we need another church, particularly Eckankar . Jim Eastling : My name is Jim Eastling . I live at 7285 Pontiac Circle, just west of the property. I 'm just concerned for our city and the reputation of our city with this church . Right now it' s known as the home of the Dinner Theaters and I think that ' s fine. I don' t want it to be known as the home of Eckankar . Janis Duininck: My name Janis Duininck and I would just like to say that I ' ve been very proud of Chanhassen. I ' ve look forward to raising my children here. If Eckankar comes in , I will remove my family from this community because I can not see, if they have a church here that they won' t be moving here also and I will not have my children going to school with people that believe what they believe. Tim Vadnais : My name is Tim Vadnais and I live at 8110 81st Street in Victoria , just down the road . I 'm a father of 4 months and I recently moved to the area . I viewed this area as a very family setting . A very good place to raise a family so I feel that' s endangered with this particular proposal . I 'd like to have you repeat the first, I know it' s been repeated before, we' re not all familiar with city ordinances. If you could repeat the stipulation and slowly, one word at a time. I 'd like to discuss maybe some of those intangible words . — Conrad : Do you have it yourself? If you want to review the words, go ahead. Tim Vadnais : I 'd just like to take a look at some of those intangibles . Comfort . What measure has been done to insure that our comfort is not impinged upon . I 'd like to also discuss the study, the devaluement study and if I could address the person who worked on that study. Conrad : Mr . Hoffman, who rendered the opinion of valuation? Is that person here? Robert Hoffman : Yes . That ' s Mr . Al Learness . Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 14 Tim Vadnais : Sir , could you tell us what went into that study and maybe a little background? Alan Learness : My name is Alan Learness . I 'm a real estate appraiser with the real estate appraisal and consulting firm of Robert Boblett — Associates based in Minneapolis. I live in the city of Minneapolis and I ' ve been a real estate appraiser here in the Twin Cities for about 12 or 13 years. — Conrad : I think the gentleman' s interested in how you came. . . Tim Vadnais: I 'm interested in the work and background. Can you tell us — a little bit about the study. We' re all concerned about our property values here. We'd like to know what facts were set forth to substantiate the statement that there would be no devaluement to our property. — Alan Learness: Yes, I will summarize what I did as part of my study to come to the conclusion that I could find no evidence that the proposal _ before the City tonight would negatively affect property values adjacent or nearby. First thing I did was reviewed a book which Mr . Hoffman eluded to to describe what the Eckankar program was. I was unfamiliar with it . A number of other things I did were to review the site plans that you saw as well as some others for general appeal or physical characteristics. I looked at the present Eckankar location at 3001 Louisiana in New Hope and analyzed if I could determine any effects on adjacent properties value by — that location at that site . I looked at the location in Minneapolis , I think it' s 2526 25th Street East in Minneapolis . It' s a church assembly reading room. It ' s adjacent to some residential property. Adjacent to some industrial property and I analyzed any effects that were discernable — from that location and any apparent affects on adjacent properties . I looked at several other churches in Chanhassen to see if I could see any negatives effects that were specific to churches in Chanhassen . I — analyzed the Supreme Court decision on a church related use at 4551 East Lake Harriet Parkway. Again , a church use , communal church use in a residential location to see if there were any discernable negative affects on property value for that church and basically concluded that I was , I also drove the general areas of neighborhoods close by to the proposed church location to see what type of use was there and analyze how that might be affected by the proposed use and ended up concluding that I could not discern that there was any negative affect on the properties adjacent or nearby by the proposal . It seemed to meet prudent man tests that market definition implies and I concluded that I was unable to discern any — differences . Tim Vadnais : Did you do any market assessment as far as incoming potential homebuyers? Would they be deferred from buying in Chanhassen if there was a church there? And my question is , I 'm unfamiliar with the facility in New Hope. Is that located in an industrial area or a residential area? — Alan Learness : Specifically the 3001 Louisiana facility is located on the west side of Louisiana Avenue in an industrial park area . Immediately _ Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 15 across Louisiana Avenue to the east are a series of single family residential homes so it ' s in an industrial area but adjacent to a residential area of single family homes . Regarding your market assessment, I did not study specifically what percent of people might or might not be against or in favor of. The City of Chanhassen appears to be growing and growing rapidly. We recently completed a study in our office addressing some issues that affect residential property values in a different area of the metro area and we looked at, or I applied those same kinds of principles to what issues affect value from a typical buyer ' s perspective. I can' t tell you that one buyer or two buyers would or wouldn ' t be affected . I can tell you that I don' t believe that there' s an impact of degree that ' s going to be measureable on the affected properties adjacent or nearby to this proposed church. It ' s just not that much of a market affect that they can be determined at this time. Tim Vadnais : As you can all see from the first restriction, there' s a lot of intangibles there and I believe in this situation here, I believe that - those intangibles that obviously everything is to Code but there are some real deep intangibles I feel should be weighed heavily and more heavily than building specs. I feel there' s a lot of questions that the planning council itself should ask about the potential builder . It ' s obvious everything that I ' ve seen in the paper and what was quoted by that gentleman there, that there' s been only one reference that ' s been consulted as to who is Eckankar and what are they all about . There' s a number of questions. Why did they leave Menlo Park, California? Why was there a need to move their headquarters? There are a lot of questions I believe that the council should take it upon their responsibility to find answers for . I believe that you ' ve been appointed by the Council , a Council elected by it' s members to represent the best interest of this area and I ask that you consider that interest . - Matt Hoffman: My name is Matt Hoffman. My wife and I just purchased a house and moved in this weekend at 931 Saddlebrook Trail . I guess when we first looked at buying a house in Chanhassen, we didn' t know anything about Eckankar , that it existed even . Now half way through our building process we have found out about Eckankar . What it means. What it stands for . I guess I 'm concerned , being directly in view of where the church is going to be, out my sliding glass window. How many people does Eckankar have that live in Chanhassen? Does anybody have a figure? Robert Hoffman: Mr. Hoffman, I don' t have that number, I 'm sorry. Matt Hoffman : Does anybody? Public: Zero. Matt Hoffman : Is that really serving the needs of this community? - Bob Cunningham: Councilmembers , my name is Bob Cunningham. I live at 6840 Chaparral Lane . We moved to Chanhassen about 2 1/2 years ago from the east side of St. Paul . On the east side of St. Paul , I have 3 boys . I — could not let them leave the block without somebody going with them. That' s the type of neighborhood I was in. I moved to Chanhassen. I have Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 16 2 playgrounds within 6 blocks . I have Lake Ann where the kids can go swimming, playing , etc. and I do not want to have to put a chain around _ their necks again . If these statements are true, I think somebody better do some investigating . Barb Klick : My name is Barb Klick. I live at 7116 Utica Lane and my — property is adjacent to the proposed land here. First I would like to compliment the gentlemen . I think that your presentation and the building is beautiful and I guess I tried to come here tonight with an open mind to — learn some more about Eckankar and I guess I 'm very disappointed and it just kind of increases my suspicions that none of the spiritual leaders were here tonight. They obviously must have known there had been some questions and some concerns in the community and it just makes my fears a little more deep rooted and deep seeded and I guess I 'm disappointed at how professionally staffed they are with these gentlemen and really are lacking in the other area. Thank you. — Jay Howard : My name is Jay Howard . I 'm a Christian researcher in the area of cults and the occult . I have spoken extensively in the State of — Minnesota and around the country and I was asked to come here this evening to look at the proceedings and from what I see, this is not really a question of whether the land is appropriate or the buildings are appropriate , this is a question of whether the teachings and the beliefs -~ of the Eckankar movement are really consistent with the Judeo Christian beliefs and ethics of your community. Just briefly I thought it would be important to let the Council know briefly what Eckankar is all about but I — don' t know how much has come out in the papers but I just wanted to take a couple of quick quotes from some of the writings of Paul Twitchell , the 971st living Eck Master. The founder of Eckankar from what I can see in my research . I began researching Eckankar in 1986 because of a request — that I had from the Eden Prairie/Chanhassen community. According to the writings of Eckankar , Eckankar is 6 million years old . The teachings are 6 million years old and it' s the fountainhead of all truth and — philosophies . Therefore , all philosophies and religions are subordinate to the teachings of Eckankar or they' ve actually sprung out of Eckankar . Paul Twitchell has said this himself in hi.s own writings, "Eckankar is the — only way to reach the world of the Sugmad. " The Sugmad, according to the writings of Eckankar , Paul Twitchell , is a being that is their idea of God. It is both good and evil . The lower half of the Sugmad is called Calnuronion . Calnuronion is a capricious entity that will , it' s pretty much the creater of evil the universe and this is what Paul Twitchell has stated about Judeo-Christian beliefs or the teachings of the Judeo- Christian beliefs concerning Calnuronion. Furthermore, the Cal is the — Jehovah of the Jewish faith and the father of the Christian teachings. Therefore, what they' re saying is that the Calnuronion entity, the lower part of the Sugmad is actually the teachings that Christianity and Judism _ sprang forth out of the beliefs or the concepts of this evil force. They' ve also said that , concerning this thing called the Ancient Signs of Soul Travel which is at the heart of Eckankar . I don' t know how much people have been told about this but they believe that by having out of — body experiences, they will reach the supreme God, the Sugmad that much quicker . They have stated , or Paul Twitchell has stated this in hi.s writings when he says , "soul travel is the secret path to the Sugmad, the Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 17 supreme being we know as God . " Also , it should be noted that soul travel is just another name for what is called, in the world of the occult, if you were to look at a dictionary on the occult , the phrase is astral projection or astral travel so that ' s why when a couple people have mentioned that Eckankar has been delving into the area of the occult which is not in keeping with the Judeo-Christian teachings of this community, that is what they mean because this teaching of the soul travel is really an occultic belief and it is contrary to all the writings and teachings of , not only Christianity but the Jewish faith. And that ' s just a real brief overview of what some of the key teachings of the group Eckankar are. Thank you . Conrad : Before you leave, what ' s your address? — Jay Howard : I 'm sorry, it ' s 8304 Zane, Brooklyn Park, Minnesota . Conrad : You' ve done some research . You 've obviously looked in textbooks . Have you done research as to where Eckankar has been and their impact on surrounding neighborhoods and what they try to do to neighborhing communities? Jay Howard : Yes . I ' ve been following this for the last 3 years and I have to be honest with you. Menlo Park, California was contacted . The police department was contacted and they were told that, and this is a — paraphrase, the police officer was quoted as saying, if you have to have a group, occult in your backyard , Eckankar would be the one because they have been known to be very benign. They have not had a history of child _ stealing and satanic rituals. The kinds of things that the community is concerned with but yet the overall emphasize of their teachings comes right out of Eastern mysticism and the occult. I 'm not here to say that they have a pattern or history of hurting communities i.n that sense of child stealing and some of these things but they have been known to, their teachings are obviously contrary to the teachings of this community. Leneda Rahe: I 'd like to ask a question again. My name is Leneda Rahe. As far as the assessment of the property values , can that be re-evaluated by this gentleman that we met earlier? When can we expect that re-evaluation? Conrad : I think that ' s a decision the City could make. Whether wanted that particular gentleman or somebody else to do it to ease your concerns . — That' s a possibility. Leneda Rahe : So by the end of this meeting this evening , could we at least be given a yes for sure this will be done and be allowed to know who will be doing it and what exactly they' ll be looking at? Conrad: That ' s certainly an option and I think i.n our motion, somebody may want to do that . Leneda Rahe: Okay, thank you . • Planning Commission Meeting — March 1 , 1989 - Page 18 Carol Vadnais : My name is Carol Vadnais and I live at 8110 81st Street in Victoria. I first became familiar with Eckankar apprxoimately 3, well 4 or 5 years ago when a friend of mine was asking me to pray about her brother who is involved in Eckankar and he was really becoming distant from their family and it was becoming a real problem within their family. From the article that I read that was in the Sailor, the Chanhassen Sailor , it had mentioned that there are really no threats to family life and no disruptions are usually caused by people that come into this group. It was a very, very deep concern and I talked to her just last night and — she said that this brother is still involved in it and there are still deep family hurts because of it and the family is very distant from him so from someone who knows of it first hand in a family, it can cause very deep family problems. Dave Rahe : Hello . My name is Dave Rahe. I live at 1021 Carver Beach Road. I think we are all intelligent people here. We can look at common — sense and also the writings of Eckankar , their leader Paul Twitchell . He ' s indicated and said that they are a cult . They are a cult religion. People do not view cults in a very positive fashion . If you look at common sense, it will indicate that our property value will suffer. Our children, our community will suffer . The concerns of these people that have spoken and that are here tonight speak loud and clear that there is a legitimate concern. What we' ve seen from Eckankar , they' ve obviously paid — a good deal of money to initiate what they have. Purchased the land . Hired some people to construct the initial phases of building the church. They've spent a good deal of money. They obviously have a good deal of — money. Also the fact that their religious leaders have not decided to come to this meeting to be asked questions that are pertinent to the issues that , we feel we have concerns as citizens of Chanhassen that they _ would be able to answer . Common sense tells us that there are some issues here that need to be looked at very carefully and myself as a concerned Chanhassen citizen think that these are very grave concerns . As a father of 4 children, I am very concerned that the effect that they will have on — our community. They may not go door to door , but their teachings may very well affect all of us and someday I may be standing here looking across at some Eckankar members sitting on the City Council and it will gravely _ change our community from what it is now as a Christian community that is concerned about families and I don ' t want to see it happen. I just beg you to please look at this very considerately. Thank you . Susan Albee : Mr . Chairman and members of the Commission . Susan Albee . 6871 Nez Perce Drive. I am not here to basically look at the religious beliefs of anyone in the community. My concern is the piece of property — at hand and how to utilize it best. I 'm looking at , of course, a very valuable piece of property. One that I don ' t want to see taken off the tax rolls. I think that the land use could certainly be more appropriate and from what I see, the City would have a need or different needs for the property. I can see a possibility of putting a moratorium on churches in a residential district until such a time that this is resolved and I think the zoning ordinance should be looked at again and see if it can not be — amended to a more appropriate use for the community. Thank you. • Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 19 Kathy Wendland : My name is Kathy Wendland and as a resident of Chanhassen I ' ve learned a great deal this evening. I didn ' t realize that the 12 criteria that were read and have partly been discussed , were taken into account and in a way it' s comforting but I have a question for you. How, — as a committee , do you evaluate the qualities that are mentioned , especially number 1 that we' ve heard read several times? That' s my question for you. Conrad : There are no numeric guidelines . We have to assess it individually and as will the City Council have to do that. - Kathy Wendland : So there are no say polls or canvasing of the community taken? - Conrad : No , there' s not such a thing as a vote or a survey unless somebody feels that it's essential that that happen. But on new applications in Chanhassen on development , that would be highly unique. In fact it never has been done. Kathy Wendland : Yet some of them are so specific they automatically fit into certain criteria . I noticed , as the gentleman brought up, these are — kind of subjective. Obviously they' re important . They' re placed number 1 and they' re subjective but none of the community seems to have input on this . It is subjective on your part and the part of the Council as well . - Is that basically what you ' re telling us? Conrad : I think on these terms, yes , it' s hard to put absolute values on some of these. You ' re right . Kathy Wendland : It isn ' t hard necessarily. What I 'm suggesting is perhaps as a Planning Commission you need more community input, especially — concerning the number 1. Mitch Weaver : Mr . Chairman and members of the committee, my name is Mitch Weaver . As my wife spoke earlier, we' re considering moving into this community and after what I ' ve heard tonight , it really concerns me and for the safety of my family. There was a handout that was given out tonight and I would like to read a phrase of this handout. It says , once any ECK member , and this comes from Twitchell 's writings of Satsang Discourses, once any ECKist becomes a member of the Second Institution and beyond , he can not ever resign from ECK. If such persons ever attempt to resign or — want to leave ECK for any purpose , they shall find it not easy to do . They will run into terrible problems . Now I would like you to very carefully consider whether this kind of commitment in a church is beneficial or detrimental to this community. Thank you . Emmings: You said you were interested in moving into the community and now you ' re not sure and that you ' re afraid for your family. I ' ve heard a — lot of comments like that and I just wonder , what specific fear you would have that would prevent you from moving into our community if this church were here . Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 20 Mitch Weaver : I think the fear is that this church is an occult and it is a cult and like the gentleman spoke earlier , this is a deviation from the _ norm of our society. The members of this community who have children going to schools here, I don' t feel want their children associating with people who are an occult and being influenced by people in a cult. I did make a proposal on a house last night and it concerns me deeply in light of the new information that we' ve received tonight . Emmi.ngs: So you think your children would be at risk in terms of their — contacts with members of this organization , is that it? Mitch Weaver: Yes I do. Janet Weaver : I 'm Janet Weaver . Regarding what Jay had spoken earlier about, the expert on cults and occult. For the record, it should be known that astral projection, the out of body experience does not limit the — person experiencing this to material and physical realms but they can proceed beyond your homes . They can go into your homes . They can go into other people' s property and this does definitely concern me and item — number 1 that it would be a violation of my comfort and my safety if someone were astral projecting into my property. Ross Cameron : Frankly I 'm surprised that I have to get up here and say this. I have heard a lot of concerns tonight, I haven' t heard the concern of freedom of speech one. I haven ' t heard the concern of freedom of religion. Public : Name and address? Ross Cameron: 413 Santa Fe Trail . I ' ve been here all my life in the area. Ross Cameron. 413 Santa Fe Trail and I haven' t heard anybody say anything about being concerned about having people ' s beliefs tromped on etc. and I was wondering if anybody would like to feel if there' s any sort — of, what should I say, can anybody reflect on that a bit and hear that. Leneda Rahe: My name is Leneda Rahe and I have lots of reflections on the _ freedom on religion in this country. I deem it as a very positive part of our existence here i.n America and it ' s one of the reasons that makes us an opportunist country and it' s a beautiful freedom. However , I think that religion needs to be redefined in this country and this is not an issue for the city planning commission but he asked for my reflections . If you redefine religion i.n terms of a criminal injustice, I can give you two very specific examples of where the religious freedom in this country was used to harm individuals. The Guyana tragedy started with Jim Jones and it began subtley by just the one person, Jim Jones who was the god of this head just like the Eckankar religion. They have a god and it ' s a mind _ controlling . We ' re looking at a dishonest thing where people can be harmed okay. I don' t need to say how many died in Guyana . Secondly, there' s another example in the Bhagwan Rajneesh in Antelope, Oregon in 1985 which began with the purchase of property. This was not what our — forefathers of this country intended for the religious freedom of people to mean that they could harm whomever they wanted in their congregation by saying that they had a certain stipulation by which all the religious Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 21 members of that group had to do . That to me is not religion. Gloria Cox: Hello. I 'm Gloria Cox. I live at 6990 Shawnee Lane in Chanhassen . My husband and I and family have resided here in Chanhassen for 11 1/2 years. One of the hardest things to see is the family farm leaving the City of Chanhassen . The big industrial areas coming out here. People are moving out here from the cities. Chanhassen was built on farmland and there' s a lot of history. The only thing is with the farmers leaving, I 'm sure they would be very disappointed not to see families and children going on here in Chanhassen and use that property the best way to have it fit and that is for a community center or for all the people in Chanhassen and the surrounding communities to enjoy it . From Waconia all the way around. — Carol Watson: My name is Carol Watson and I live at 7131 Utica Lane. I 'm adjacent to the property. My big concern at this point is , it was a brief few years ago that they were here. They were going to pay taxes . They were going to have a publishing house. They were going to have some offices and that was what was going to be on that property. At that point in time, they told us, I believe we were at the Dinner Theater for the meetings, they told us they didn' t have churches . That people met in small groups and centers and stuff and that they didn' t have anything they called a church and they certainly didn' t have anything called a sanctuary. In these brief few years, they now have a church that needs to — house 800 people and needs a caretaker on site . It has 290 some parking spaces and if that can happen in the brief years since they owned this property, I 'm concerned about what can occur in the next few years . Dan Mahady: Good evening. My name is Dan Mahady and I live at 1020 Butte directly across the street from the entrance to the Eckankar proposed church. I just moved in i.n October and this is my first home. I ' ve been — very excited about moving i.n the community and so on. I had no idea about who owned that land over there until I saw it in the Villager paper here a few weeks ago. It was my impression that it was probably going to be for residential area and as everybody here is concerned for their families and so on, which I was very happy to be proud of. When I first found this out, needless to say I was quite shocked and I 'd just like to go on record as saying that I am definitely opposed to the church being located on that property as I think the majority here have spoken here tonight . Rosie Peitz: My name is Rosie Peitz and I ' ve lived here, I 'm a mother of — 6 children . We' ve lived in Chanhassen 25 years . We love this city. It' s our home and I just feel that each of you on the commission really should examine your consciences . This i.s a moral issue. We do not want Eckankar to come in Chanhassen. We do not need it. We do not want it and I can' t understand why they would even want to be here knowing we don ' t want them and we never will want them. I have a deep concern for my family and all my friends in the city of Chanhassen . Jan Lash: My name i.s Jan Lash. I live at 6850 Utica Lane. I briefly made notes of the zoning ordinances when Mr . Hanson was reading them and I guess I would go along with other people i.n questioning 1, 4 , 6 and 11. I you figure that out , that ' s 4 out of the 12 ordinances that people have • Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 22 grave doubts about . I think that should be a significant thought in your mind and I guess I would agree that if this property is taken off of the _ tax rolls, which I think it probably already has been , I would rather see it benefit our community and I don ' t feel this church would benefit our community because it has no members . The numbers that were read tonight of having 290 centers in 92 different countries , it's probably not fair on — my part to average this out but that would be roughly 3 centers per country and we already have one in Minneapolis . I guess I don' t understand why they need another one here . I guess if they can leave their body, I don' t know why they have to have their church out here to start with. They could have it anywhere they want . Pat Albrecht: My name is Pat Albrecht . I live on 6951 Tecumseh Lane. It — seems to me things are kind of backwards in that the zoning ordinance seemed to be ruling what the community does rather than the community making the rules for what they want . I don ' t think, as she said , I don ' t — think anyone does want Eckankar. It seems that they backed out last time because they weren ' t wanted and they' re still not wanted . Jean Burke: My name is Jean Burke and I live at 225 West 77th Street. It seems that there is some confusion in your minds as to how we' re concerned about our children but as I 'm driving to beautiful Lake Ann and my children ask what the pyramid in the sky is , I am going to have to build — an invisible wall to protect them from what I feel is harmful to them spiritually. This i.s a moral issue in that my spiritual growth is affected. My emotional growth is harmed. This emotionally upsets me. Physically, I 'm I 'm fine . Emotionally, I 'm shattered to think that my community would welcome something that is going to be a barrier for my children . I will have to tell them on the way to Lake Ann that this i.s a piece of property that we don' t play on. We don ' t go near . If we' re invited , we say no . It is evil . It is wrong . This is not a facility I want in my community, especially adjacent to a property that I think is the highlight of this area . The pyramid is not invisible. It is a sign — of an organization that is supporting beliefs different from my Judeo-Christian background . I moved here 5 years ago and was thrilled to see the cross on the main street of the old Catholic church in Chanhassen and this i.s still my background and I am still proud of the cross and not — proud of the pyramid. Dawn Opitz: My name i.s Dawn Opitz. I live at 870 Nez Perce Court in —Ma Chanhassen. I guess I 'd also just want to reiterate, I heard this gentleman say several times about the fact that this priest can marry people and for anybody that doesn ' t know this, it is very easy to be able — to receive the requirements to marry a person. That' s nothing noble. I think that so far that ' s the only service that I ' ve heard offered to us . I just want to say, just so we remember when we leave this room tonight , to not forget what, you know, not the heat of the moment but just not forget, don ' t be deceived by what these people are trying to do. They aren' t here to serve us. They have no interest in us whatsoever. They' re only selfish . They have nothing to offer us . They' re not here offering — us anything right now either . I just want to say, just remember tonight and if they do, if they do get in here, continue to remember what they stand for . I guess just be a greater influence yourself on Chanhassen . _ Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 23 Mark Johnson : My name is Mark Johnson. I come by myself. Unrepresented by any group or anything else. I live at 504 West 76th Street and the father of 4 young children . I think there ' s been a lot of concern expressed by young families here this evening. I don' t believe that this group meets the requirements of the ordinance, and I think ordinance number 1 specifically. With the concern of the young parents, I would like the Planning Commission to consider that with this amount of discontent from young families, we will move. That will have a profound impact on the public school system in this district . Then maybe the church would like to move into the space that' s left in the open schools . Bobby Kiessard : My name is Bobby Kiessard . I live at 7604 South Shore Drive. I have small children. I 'm able to keep them under my wing right now. My concern is , if these people get in, when my children are teenagers and teenagers have enough problems, enough to deal with but if my kids have to deal with that malarky when they' re teenagers , I 'm moving out as well . It scares me. Dave Rahe : My name is Dave Rahe , 1021 Carver Beach Road . I guess I just had a question that came to mind in regard to the 20 office spaces that are supposedly going to establish this church . They have a membership of about 400 and probably 100 people possibly maybe attending. I guess I would like a little bit more of a definition as to why a church of that — size needs 20 offices. My fear is that after they' re in, perhaps a year , perhaps 2 years , they may start suddenly moving in their printing presses . Their other manufacturing goods and I guess if this were to come to pass , that they do move i.n , are we going to moniter them because as a Chanhassen citizen and knowing the background that I know about them, I certainly don' t trust them per se for face value . It seems a lot that they need 20 offices. Conrad : A couple comments . Steve, if they did expand , they would have to come back for a conditional use? Hanson : That ' s correct . Emmings : Or if they changed the nature of the use. Conrad: Or if they changed the nature of the use they'd have to come back in so technically they couldn' t expand unless they came back through the process . Mr. Hoffman, there were 20 offices that the gentleman said were in the building . What are they to be used for or could you clarify that for us? Robert Hoffman : Mr . Chairman , I said there would be 20 office workers , not 20 offices. I 'm not too sure of the number of offices. I think there ' s 4 or 5 offices . Those will be both full time and part time. IMP Conrad: So I understand that you have no definition as to what these offices will or may be doing? Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 24 Robert Hoffman : I think if you ' re familiar with most churches , they have a staff . The staff varies i.n size and they' ll be administering the church facilities and the church services that they have in the church. — Dave Rahe: We presently attend a church that has approximately 2, 300 members staffed by approximately less than 10 people. I don' t know how — big a staff your church has but it ' s a pretty big question in my mind why a church of that size would need 20 offices or rather 20 employees as officers in that size of church. It ' s a big question mark and I don ' t — think that ' s addressed appropriately here, or hasn ' t been answered anyway. Thank you. Rosie Peitz: I talked before and I know I forgot to give you my address . — It' s 7607 Kiowa and I 'm not with any group or anything either . I just came on my own and I just happened to think of some thing . Somebody mentioned teenagers before and I remember when they were here before at — the Dinner Theater 3 years ago. Someone had asked them if they go soliciting door to door and they said no, they don' t. What they do is they go to the schools and reach the different schools and colleges and so on . I also have teenagers. I have children ages 27 down to 10 and that really bothers me. I just want to say, couldn' t we, this is a big load for the Planning Commission to have, to make the decision whether to have the whole city of Chanhassen , what shall I say, anyway. I can ' t think — right now but anyway, couldn' t this be brought to a vote through the City? I feel all the people i.n Chanhassen need to have a vote on this since it i.s a big moral issue and does relate to all of us and our children. I — guess I would like to see that brought to a vote. Conrad: Maybe we can ask our City Attorney for comment on a vote issue. Rosie Peitz : It' s not just a few here . It ' s the whole city that will be involved. Dave Grannis : Mr . Chairman and members of the audience. A vote on an issue like this is not legally appropriate. There' s no provision in the law that would allow the City Council to hold a special election to _ consider an issue like this, either for or against. The City Council and the Planning Commission hold a public hearing . That' s where we are right now. The purpose of that hearing i.s to let people air their views and state their position. Beyond that , the Council could , if they want , or the Planning Commission do some additional surveys informally. Mailings or whatever . That ' s kind of an optional thing with the Planning Commission and the Council . Rosie Peitz : I think the rest of the people of Chanhassen should know exactly what' s going on. I think they have a right to know and a right to vote on it . — Leneda Rahe : I 'd like to ask a question of the Attorney. I know of a specific case with Art Owens and his being sued because of mental anguish that he supposedly caused to many people . Who would be prepared to meet the lawsuits against the City or whomever when the mental anguish starts to begin in this City? Who would be liable for that? _ Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 25 Dave Granni.s : If the City is sued because of an action that they take regarding to a matter relating to their zoning or something similar to that. . . Leneda Rahe : Going against stipulation number 1, the requirements is our comfort and our health. Dave Grannis : The City has insurance to cover that okay. Their insurance company would defend on behalf of the City. It becomes just like any other civil lawsuit and somebody would have to prove that the City did something in an improper or illegal manner. Alan Peterson : My name is Alan Peterson. I live at 6697 Countryside Drive in Eden Prairie. We are a property owner , or plan to be building in Chanhassen. I think you ' ve already put us through mental anguish since we' ve kept him up an hour and a half past his bedtime and I 've been sitting back there just kind of fuming and fuming and fuming and watched some of the members of the Planning Commission watching attentively and others seem to be sort of bored . The reason I 'm here is my wife was in the back saying are they listening to you or are they listening to us? My hope is that you are listening to the people and that you are listening to the young families and you listen to Mark Johnson who said there are young families who are considering building or moving in and we will move. I will sell my lot and I will move to a community that has moral standards to keep things like this out of the area and I hope that you listen to us as members of the community and not listen to a battery of lawyers . Craig Thornberg : My name is Craig Thornberg and I live at 10765 Bush Lake Road Circle in Bloomington. I just have one thing to mention to the board here is that under the First Amendment we have the freedom of speech . That means legally we have a great amount of power in our opinion. The public opinion being expressed has legal ground and I would ask you to consider public opinion as a very strong legal ground which would have, — what would I say, would have much to do with what you would make your decisions on and I 'm hoping that you ' re considering that. Thank you . Resident from Audience : . . .not a legal issue and when the proposal was first presented, the recommendation was to accept it. Last summer as I recall , the Senate was undergoing some hearings on a man named Robert . . . His qualifications were impecable. Nobody found fault with that but he — was denied a place on the Supreme Court over a moral issue . I really ask you to consider your consciences and the opinions that you've heard tonight . We' ve tried the best we can to express our feelings . . . Emmings moved, Erhart seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried . The public hearing was closed . Erhart: Is there anybody here representing the Eckankar group who is a member of Eckankar? That ' s a little amazing to me . It really perks my interest in this and I haven' t heard anything about this group before today. What I 'm trying to assess in my mind is the rights of the property '.Ai Planning Commission Meeting 1, 1989 - Page 26 owner versus all evening and the standards that — even evening proposal , do trying to judge whether the we ' ve Ls- proposal and w it relates to the standardsthatproperty Lw p a number to use that in makingthat we . haveaadards of questions recommendation! to and I have in my mind relating to don ' tad think candquite a list of - n actingbe answered by anybodyquestions here anen leader n the church. but a meers knowWithout that and it 's that it ' s worth proceeding with pets n cI 'venevergroupany jenclu quite has a lot of ex I caw because h Bush 's seen an entourage like th;cc� c. on Bush s trip to 9 like here, we ' ve had China. Seconal , ' beennch buildingshre, a couple churches y' C church and if I was the come in wit getting so I really, architect just from the overallruld k- bot use ntshavePortrayed here tonightaff reaction that I have and I know wh me go on, let me deal to it is me itselfon, and thendwith some questions that we' re ha Steve, yI ' ll go back that I hay you had a number of a and see if • Shat you had agencies thatwe can m` that you d no response. Normallyyou re and Watershed we do quest.�c ConservationCha ? District. get respha e Do we have that. Hanson: No . get W` did not — a response from either ; Erhart: Normally do we have that when we review? Hanson: Normally — if they have comments they respond , y Erhart: Otherwise, if Ernit expect an they don ' t have and Y comments from them? they don ' t-- Hanson: That 's what And you ' re tali: we normally y do Wztn an aPPlicatiC— , inch, Gary Warren ' s recommendation I understood from the on Has the location the location of been satisfied? xcant that he 's agreed o Hansn : I believe lcion has been normally the specific location, , atied down whichI don ' t know t; plans , we would do } construction Erhart : DO conditions? You feel that that t�Ons? There 'snumber of things be one conditions a thatof the itn: conditions that have been thinio herey wondering if we recommendations are n should be includingby Gary Warren Hanson ; them. All of his should have been included . Erhart:Erha It doesn ' t say 8 inch. there 's the concrete barrierAlso, on page don ' t see that in there and ' t on ofGary the curbing included it l�asn been answered en t. I don ' Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 27 - not too sure, is he recommending concrete barrier all the way in from CR 17 into the site? Hanson : Yes , according to that memo he is . Erhart: Then I suggest we add that to the conditions. Also, number 8, the applicant address the nutrient loading impacts to Riley Lake. Has — that been answered? Is there a reason why 7, 8 and 9 aren' t listed? Hanson: I suspect what happened is when this was typed up, those were left off because they' re all on that separate page. The intent was that all of the conditions of engineering would have been added to that memo. Erhart : As such then, the applicant hasn' t responded to those four items. Hanson : I believe they did not . — Erhart : Do we normally ask for easements when people apply for conditional use permits or is that normally associated with subdivisions? Hanson : Normally with a subdivision. Erhart: So i.n this case you don ' t feel that it' s appropriate to look at trail easements or street easements? There ' s no money given? Hanson: The process that we do that through is with the subdivision. - Erhart : Alright , so anyway I think there' s a few more things there that probably need to be answered. One of the things that I 'd like to see during this , the building and site plan , that we add a requirement that no outdoor speaker systems be allowed. I think we' ve already had trouble in our city. If Jim was here, I think he could tell us about last summer we had one of our local businesses decided to go outdoors with their activities and from listening to this business , it doesn ' t sound like — that ' s out of the question so I 'd like to see that as a condition. Did we move the handicapped parking area as requested by the Public Safety? Hanson: I don' t know. The plans that I have not had those moved . Erhart : Are we going to request that? - Hanson: I think you can add that if you 'd like. We looked at it as where there are handicapped spaces shown and where the other parking is , the distance that ' s achieved either way, it' s kind of a draw. Erhart : Okay, I ' ll leave that one to you . If you feel that it' s a moot issue and then I don' t care one way or the other either . We did add the fire hydrant? I 'm looking at , on the fourth page in your comments from the building inspector and the fire inspector , they were asking for an additional fire hydrant . Has that been added? Hanson: I believe i.n their presentation they agreed to do the conditions of the Fire Inspector . Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 28 Erhart : Okay, and also include the fire alarm system? Hanson: Yes . Erhart : Maybe you can tell me, can you describe the New Hope facility to — me? Robert Hoffman : The New Hope facility would compare to an office/tech — center that you might have in one of your office parks. It' s a single story combination office/warehouse type of building . Erhart: What goes on in there? — Robert Hoffman: The publication, production, the audio visual production, their computer systems for their worldwide members, their mailing — services , their offices , international offices . If you went inside of it, which you ' re invited to do, it looks like an office. Erhart : How many people are employed there? Robert Hoffman: Do you remember Peter? About 40? About 40 to 50. Erhart : They own the facility? Robert Hoffman: Yes . — Erhart : It ' s in an industrial park? Robert Hoffman : It ' s in an industrial park across the street from residential . Immediately facing the residential . Erhart : Is it unique , like a church or is it. . . — Robert Hoffman: You mean the building? Erhart : Yes . Or does it fit in with the asethetics and the setting of other industrial park buildings? Robert Hoffman : Yes , it would be similar , I have to describe it as an — office/tech type of building . Erhart : So if Eckankar decided to move out of that building , it would be — fairly easy to sell to another industrial or office user in the park? Robert Hoffman : I would assume so if there ' s a market there. It ' s not an unusual office/tech building. Erhart : So it would be a likely place to go if you were looking for a temporary international headquarters? — Robert Hoffman : That ' s your conclusion I guess . • • Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 29 Erhart : I guess I 'm concerned about the services provided to the organization. I guess one of the questions that I wanted to ask some of the members was the history of the organization and also I wanted to ask, has anybody Steve, on the staff, done some research as to what experiences other cities have had with Eckankar facilities? Hanson: No. We treat them as any other church that comes in . Robert Hoffman : If I may respond to that . Your Public Safety Department in 1985, according to a memo of the City made, as they called it, an investigation of Eckankar ' s activities in Menlo Park, California which was then their headquarters and that' s a memorandum of a couple pages which I 'm sure you have in your record . The conclusion of that investigation by your Public Safety Department was as follows , governmental agencies and — private firms in the vicinity of Eckankar ' s existing facility highly recommend Eckankar as a supportive member of the community and they had been there for about 12 years . I believe there is a quote, I think by the - City Manager of New Hope in the Sailor , which I just read today, that basically said they' ve been there for 3 years and we don ' t even know they' re there. There' re a good neighbor. Now we have a series of letters from different cities where Eckankar has had seminars that are highly complimentary but I don' t know if you ' re interested in those or not . Hartford , Conneticut and Idaho and a number of others . Erhart: There is a facility i.n St. Paul as well? Robert Hoffman : Yes . It was in St . Paul . Now it ' s i.n Minneapolis . It ' s been here since 1973 and you ' re welcome to talk to anyone i.n the neighborhood . Erhart : And that ' s in addition to the facilities in New Hope? • Robert Hoffman: Yes, that's correct . - Erhart : What goes on in the facilities in Minneapolis? Robert Hoffman: It' s their spiritual center again. They hold meetings and readings and study groups . Erhart: And where is that located? — Robert Hoffman : The address is, I guess I don ' t have that . Do you have that? Oh, it is 2526 25th Street S. E . , Minneapolis . Erhart : Is that a residential neighborhood? Robert Hoffman: I 'm going to say yes . - Erhart : That ' s by the University of Minnesota isn ' t it? Robert Hoffman: Yes. Prior to that they were at 8807 S.E. 4th Street. They were there from 1975 to 1986 and they' ve been in this present location since 1986. Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 30 Erhart : Where do people go if you wanted to become a student of Eckankar _ and I assume they have some kind of school , where do you go? Robert Hoffman : It' s a study group. Erhart : These are the kinds of questions that I just can ' t get answered . I guess what I 'd like to see is someone from Eckankar. I 'm trying to understand . The question in my mind is , what is the long term intent of — thi.s facility here? Robert Hoffman : Of the church? Erhart: Of the church, yes . Robert Hoffman : To use it as a church. — Erhart: Yes, I understand that but in my short experience on the Planning Commission, I ' ve seen people come in with proposals and they get approvals _ and as soon as they get the approval and then they come in a little bit later when they get the first block laid and then geez whiz, now I have a little better idea and now we want to do something different and I think one of the things we owe to the Council is to pass onto them some research as to long term intent and what are the possibilities. A proposal from a structure standpoint looks real neat today but I assume that in the structural there' s some, you ' ve taken into consideration abilities to add — onto this building . Robert Hoffman : Not as it' s designed . Erhart : Is there anyway to add onto the building? Robert Hoffman : Mr . Krank is here. I believe the answer is no . I — supposed you can add onto any building but architecturally it' s not designed to be added onto . Is that correct Mr . Krank? Ron Krank : Anything is possible but the design has not been programmed to add onto . Erhart : Okay. I guess without understanding the pattern and the — objectives of the church specifically, it ' s hard for me to determine what the intent is of this 174 acres . I guess that ' s the issue and these are some of the more benign questions that I have relating to what is — Eckankar . Robert Hoffman : I ' ll answer your last one . First of all , the church has _ no intention of expanding the church facilities as such and have not been designed for expansion . Secondly, if there would be any additions to the property, I think your City Planner and your City Attorney would advise you that it would have to be in accordance with your ordinances . So — presumably the balance of the property could be developed for single family housing under your ordinances without a conditional use and without a rezoning . If any other use was proposed that was inconsistent with your — Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 31 ordinance, you 'd have to change your ordinance. I will tell you that Eckankar will only develop the property in accordance with your ordinances. Whatever they are today or next year or 20 years from now or 40 years from now. Erhart : I think from the responses or the comments by Carol Watson, and again I don' t expect you to answer questions on where and what the — objectives of this church is . In fact , I discount your answers substantially but I just might want to point out that Carol Watson . indicated her experience on the Council in 1985 and what the goals were then is not in line with what the goals that you stated for the church . Again, it concerns me a little bit what' s happening to this property and I guess I 'd like to have, what I 'm getting to when I get down to the end half an hour from now I suppose, I 'd like to have the opportunity to have some church members in this room at a future Planning Commission meeting where we could get some more information on the background of the organization. Robert Hoffman : If you'd want to better define background , if you' re talking about the philosophy of religion, which we don ' t think is a proper subject by the way for this discussion. If that ' s your idea of background, then they will not be here. Erhart : The question I have is . . . Robert Hoffman : By the way, I 'm a Catholic and have been as a birth Catholic. I ' ve got enough gray hair so I remember some of the comments being made, also being made against Catholics not too many years ago . Erhart: But I think the citizens of this community is owed an answer from an official representative of the church as to if, have they ever — recruited members door to door? Robert Hoffman : The answer is no . I can tell you that. Erhart: I don' t think that you' re an official representative of this organization and I ' ve got a whole series of those questions relating to the issue of safety and health. I 'm all for land owners rights but I also believe that the citizens here deserve some answers from the leadership of this church and not paid consultants. And it isn' t worth getting into an argument about , that ' s just my opinion and getting into it further will — probably just waste a lot of time. Robert Hoffman: If you wish to ask questions that relate to the conditional use that the church members can answer , we' ll be pleased to have them answer them. Erhart : The conditional use , I can spell out . It ' s been read three times — here tonight that one of the things we have to evaluate is, is it detrimental to the health , safety and comfort? You have someone' s opinion that says it' s not. Well , I ' ll get into that but let' s take one thing at — a time. In the first place, I guess I 'd like to know what it takes to get to be verified as a church . Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 32 Robert Hoffman : Your ordinances spell it out very clearly. Erhart: I think our ordinances refer to sanctioned as a church in the State of Minnesota . It also says that they come, you guys handed out so much paper here it will take me half an hour just to find the sheet I want to find here. Steve, help me. Here it is . It says a church means a building or edifice consecrated to religious worship where people join together in some form of public worship under the direction of a person — who is authorized under the laws of Minnesota. I 'm not convinced that this organization worships . Again, I don' t want to get into religion but the ordinance says it worships and I guess I 'd like to understand how the State of Minnesota goes through the process of determining if this is a — church. I have some questions about that and without having a member representative here, I don' t think it' s worth getting into the kind of questions. Plus, I guess I 'd like to hear what the process was for that — to determine if this is a church. So I 'm not convinced that it ' s a church. It certainly hasn' t come in here like any church that I ' ve ever seen . Most of the money of the churches that I ' ve been involved with seem to go to other things than building and consultants. No offense taken. No offense meant. That' s my number one question. I 'm not sure it ' s a church. I 'm not saying I can' t be convinced that it' s a church. I think with some further research . Secondly, I guess I came in here reading the — material and I wasn' t, either I missed it or it wasn' t provided, I did not see the material from the research of 1985 in my packet . Maybe I missed that on the memo part thing but I was not convinced that the health and — safety and comfort issue was worthwhile. I didn' t think there was an issue there but after listening to the public here, even I who is a property owner here , probably respects property rights as much as anybody in Chanhassen, has not been swayed in my mind, I 'm not convinced that — there isn' t a concern to health , safety and comfort . I can empathize with people living in the neighborhood with on a daily basis thinking about the facilities there and what the objective of the facility is . We' re over , I — think keeping in mind that our school is right across the street from this facility is a second issue . So I think I 'm a little weak on that one but I 'm not convinced without some more research that there' s not an issue of _ health and safety here. Going back to number 1, I guess my conclucion and recommendation is that I guess I 'd like to see the City contact the Attorney. General ' s office because I think it' s a little bit out of our experience and to see whether there is any history or get a determination of what their opinion is regarding Eckankar being a church. I don' t know when that determination was made or on what basis it was made. In reviewing this again, I guess I 'd like to have that comment, or their — response to that Steve if anybody else thinks that ' s appropriate. Third , my bigger concern is that I think this organization with the proposed facilities , one , not paying taxes and secondly, is that it has the potential of requiring excess city services which is one of the standards we weigh this proposal and I think it sounds from a couple of examples given by representatives of the group, that in other locations it hasn' t required excess services , I guess I 'd like to see our own investigation to determine if excess city services had to be provided due to things, I can imagine potential for disturbances due to students . If the real intent is that students use this is a training facility or if parents get upset — Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 33 because members of their family start attending or whatever . I guess I 'm not so much against what you ' re saying but I guess I 'd like to hear it, I 'd like to get some independent study of what other communities have experienced in this matter because here' s a facility that ' s not going to pay any taxes and we certainly should be providing excess services . Fourth, if the thing is as quiet as they say they are, I suppose there' s the potential that property values will not devaluate. On the other hand , — when I come into this meeting and I see television cameras from 3 studios , I question whether this group, with the purposes that it has , can be quiet and I believe that negative attention will mean negative property evaluations . I think the potential exists with the media to turn, seriously a comment was used here tonight that was one that I came to this afternoon . If there was a lot of negative publicity, we could be converted from the City of the Dinner Theater to the City of Eckankar and I know we used the word cults , since they seem to claim it as part of their creed and if that happens , there' s no question that property values will devaluate . A number of people have stated that here tonight and the question, I guess the thing that really sets in my mind is Mr. Leirness , to draw your conclusions by going and looking at the property without doing a study of what people had to say in the surrounding property, and it ' s in an industrial site , not a residential . It ' s in a major city as opposed to a city with the population of 8 , 000. I think there' s a lot of factors there that were overlooked . My recommendation is that we get our own appraiser and have them come in with a professional appraisal paid by — the City of Chanhassen and see what his assessment would be on this matter. Lastly, number 5, I tend to view, given what I ' ve seen here and not what was said but what I ' ve seen is that the business , or the - applicant, if not actually a business, operates more like a business than a church. I believe, since I operate a business , businesses need to grow. Staff more people. Bring in more customers and so forth and I think if we go into this with Eckankar , I think we ought to have open eyes at least to know whether it's a business, a church, if it' s a pseudo-business church . A clear understanding of what it is we' re dealing with here because I think if it was a church serving this area, I don' t know why it picked - here so I still think it ' s a business but I ' ll be open and try to get more information on this. I heard some things discussed here, I guess what I 'd like to see , this is the second time the City and staff and other commission members and citizens have come up on here on this idea, I 'd like to see the City consider buying this property. I think we need space for future schools . We' re talking about putting a community center in the middle of our playground . That tells me we need some space here that — people can use. We had a meeting Monday night where it was stated we don ' t have enough park space. We have to throw out some softball players that have been here for years and lastly, I think out of 174 acres , my - concern is that as an entity, they can continue sitting on the whole space or using it for classified religious reasons which means there wouldn' t be any taxes paid on it at all . My feeling is , even if we had to pay 5 million dollars, somehow we are creative enough with our downtown to get this stuff to pay back. If you look at this property and buy it at some kind of money that would be in line with the valuation or the proponents valuation and try to come up with a way that the tax money would pay it — back and I think we ought to take the time to look at that. So my recommendation is , I guess what I 'm precluding is that my recommendation Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 34 is , I 'd like to see this thing tabled until we can get some representatives of the church in here or members and to look at some other options . To get an appraiser to look at the valuation situation and get some more of these questions answered in my mind. Emmings : I 'm going to start at the bottom and then work my way to the top — here. As a bottom line, I think that this proposal should be approved. Now, I ' ll go back and obviously I 'm not going to set off the applause meter. It' s fairly easy to see what you have to say to do it but in that — regard , I 'd like to say that the one gentleman who got up and spoke about Constitutional rights and First Amendment rights and rights of association and freedom of religion had a lot of guts because he knew the crowd and we' ve got to respect him for that. I also respect the concerns of the — other people that were raised here. I have no doubt in my mind that everybody' s expressing genuine concerns. Genuine fears of something that is real poorly known. I think it is disappointing that they won' t come and talk to us about their religion since it' s of interest to so many people that live here but I don ' t think they have any requirement to do that. If they don' t want to, that' s their choice. I noticed in the _ morning paper , someone made the comment that this proposal is going to tear our community apart and I think that rather overstates the case. Maybe it' s just going to tear the Planning Commission apart since I have to sit next to Tim but, anyway, in a way the Planning Commission operates, we don ' t really make any decisions so if the people go with me, you can feel comfortable about that . We make recommendations to the City Council and they lots of times look at us like we' re crazy and go the opposite — direction and that ' s the way the system is supposed to work and that ' s fine. But someone did get up and make a comment that I 'd like to address as kind of a side issue first of all . They said it seems like the zoning ordinance is ruling the community rather than the community ruling the — ordinance, or setting the rules and I don ' t think you' ve got that right . Ladd ' s been here longer than anybody, he' s older than any of us, and I ' ve been here second longest and we' ve been through the Comprehensive Plan a — couple of times and very frankly, the zoning ordinance implements the Comprehensive Plan and then we apply the zoning ordinance . Right now we' re in a position where we have to apply that zoning ordinance to the — specific proposal that' s in front of us and if we do that in a very honest way, there' s no way we can do anything but approve this. Not a lot of people have said this is a moral issue but the fact is that what we' re charged to do, it' s strictly an application of the Zoning Ordinance to the application in front of us . Now you may not like that and you ' re shaking your head no out there but that is what we ' re charged to do and that' s what I think we have to do. Now, when we establish a comprehensive plan , we hold public hearings all the way through to decide where the future, what is the future of this city and I can tell you that I 've sat here through many meetings where there was not one person from the public in _ those chairs out there to give us feedback as to where the public wants to see the city go. All of those meetings are advertised in the paper and you all have an opportunity to be here and if you have any complaints about the comprehensive plan or the zoning ordinance in terms of not being responsive to where the people of the city think the city should be going in you have no one to blame but yourselves. We really want people to come and give us feedback but the feedback of the nature that you ' re giving us Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 35 now is too late because there are things in place that have to be implemented. I didn' t make comments when you spoke and I appreciate the chance to heard . Now it ' s my turn. As to specifics, I really disagree with Tim that it should be tabled. I think it should be moved up to the City Council . I think that we should take , I know that the view that I 'm taking of what our job is is a narrow view but I think it should be moved up to the City Council because they' re the people who are responsive to - the public directly because you directly elect those people and all of the things that you' ve said will be presented to them verbatim. There -will be a verbatim transcript of this and they' ll have all of that in front of them. I too, Mr. Hoffman eluded to the fact, I grew up in a town that was a small town that was half Catholic and half Protestant and there was two of everything and everybody knew who everybody else was and I thought it stunk. I really hated it. I hope that we don' t evaluate families when they move in to our city as to what their beliefs are before we let them buy a house . I hope we don' t evaluate churches as to what their beliefs are before we let them build a church. I don ' t think we want to build a - wall around Chanhassen . I think we' re stronger than that. I hope we' re not that weak. There are two sides to this thing . One is , what do we do with the application in front of us . The other side is all the emotional stuff. All the religious stuff. All the moral stuff. At this level , I would advocate that we deal strictly with the job that we' ve been charged to do by the City Council and let them deal with the rest of it. For that reason , I think it' s a rather simple and straight forward thing . I don ' t think there' s that much, substantially everything we heard tonight is irrelevant to that view. As far as the tax thing goes , we' re worried about this thing. I think it would be a wonderful addition to the Lake - Ann Park and I wish that would happen . Again , we have to address the proposal in front of us. If the City wants to buy it, they'd better start negotiating . Contact the City Council members . Contact the Mayor and tell them that you think that' s what they should do and see if they' ll start negotiating with these people if they' re interested in selling it. That' s the only way that can be accomplished. As far as the tax goes, I would imagine that the building of the church has nothing to do with this . — It' s already owned by a tax exempt organization and therefore is off the tax rolls anyway. Is that right? Hanson: Yes . Em-nings : So the fact that of the building of the church isn ' t going to change that. That already exists. We' ve got a whole bunch of things like — height of the building and other things where right now their set backs are just enormous and I take it that if they ever wanted to sell any part off , whether it was part of it to the City for a park or sell the whole - thing. Well no, once the church is built , if they wanted to build other facilities on there or if they wanted to subdivide it for any purpose, all of those setback requirements would then be taken into account in that subdivision . Is that right? Hanson: Yes . Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 36 Emmings : Those are essentially all my comments . The only other thing I 'd like to mention i.s, this one fellow that researches religions got up and _ said that this is an issue of a group wanting to come in who ' s values conflict with the Judeo-Christian values of this community and I want to say, since other people have expressed themselves I feel obligated to express myself on that. I don' t know much about Eckankar. I don' t think any of us do. Maybe that ' s intentional . Maybe it ' s not. I don' t know but I 'm not going to come to the conclusion that they conflict with my values until I know more about them. I 'm not afraid of them. I don' t — care if my son goes to school with their kids . I have a young son here. I would not move out of the community if they moved in. People have said that they' re evil . That they' re wrong. We've heard Ku Klux Klan. We've heard Nazis . There is just no foundation in fact for any of those comments. It' s just absurb to me so, I ' ve had my say and I didn' t get any applause . Ellson : I don ' t think that there ' s anyway that I can deny this application because we only want Judeo-Christians in Chanhassen. I think the more you want us to treat it special , to treat it morally, the more I feel we have to treat it more equally as we treat all our other applications . We could vote our heart and your heart and say no. It could go to Council . They could vote it all based on this moral issue and this organization has every right to contest the City Council approval , or — denial I should say. They can sue us . They can bring us into Court and say they didn ' t use the letter of the law to deny us from building here. They used something outside that. They used something that America ' s not — even founded on . You' re not allowed to deny based on moral issues. It' s the law. We can not use that basis to say no, get out of town. What I want however is more proof to be able to deny it . I want more than opinion that you think it ' s going to devalue your property values. -' They' ve come with as much proof as you can see to prove all the points that it will not harm any of our conditions . What I 'm asking you to do, either prior to City Council or in the interim, is to do some homework. You all care. There' s no doubt about that but what I 'm asking for you, it ' s not the place of the City to try and build a case antian applicant. Again, they could sue us and say that we' re anti , we' re not treating them _ fairly but I 'm asking you to do some homework. If you think it' s going to depreciate property values , they' ve got a guy and a report and a study that says it does nothing , go out and find proof that it does . I 'm asking you to, for example, talk to some of these Minneapolis neighbors. Find -' some facts on houses that were sold prior to them coming in town. After them coming in town. See if you can prove that indeed the property value did go down. There is some concrete legal proof to deny. Talk to — solicitations from neighbors. If they' re in 260 cities , then they've got 260 plus neighbors . You might be able to find people who said yes , it ' s hurt our public health. Yes , it' s hurt our comfort. I 'm asking you to _ get some more proof than to ask us to deny it based on a moral issue. I don' t have to tell the different ways that you can go about doing this but I 'm basically saying , we can ' t have the City going and bringing out and putting together a case against an applicant. It goes against — everything that ' s suppose to be fair play. They come to us . We ' re supposed to look at it like we look at everything else. We don' t ask CPT, isn ' t 200 employees a little bit much . We were questioning that number of _ Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 37 employees . We don' t do that sort of thing on any other applicants . We can ' t start questioning them and denying them because we think 23 is a little too many office workers but I 'm saying , you know what the conditions are. We' ve read them. Do some homework and bring some concrete proof to the table and it ' s real easy for the City Council to deny based on the fact that they can not meet these conditions. Like Steve said , our basis is to look at the legalities . Are they meeting — them? Are they not? We can ' t deny it based on moral issues. I 'd also suggest you look into this issue of church. They' ve already been classified as church according to our definition but maybe we could insinuate from the standpoint of some of their other facilities, this is a really big property. It' s got a lot of land. Do some of their other 260 locations have the Bible Camps that we don ' t allow? The drug treatment centers that we don' t allow. Day care centers. We could insinuate that — that possibly would be in a long range plan here, therefore it wouldn ' t go by our definition. There' s a lot more that we can do than just sit up here and be worried about our children . We have to fight fire with fire. - They' re sitting here with proof that they meet everything and I want people to come forth with proof that they' re not going to do it and not just opinion. I 'm asking you for a called action and I 'm saying I agree with you. . . .or the Naziparty leaders but legally I can ' t do anything to prevent that because this world or this Constitution or what have you is telling us we can ' t use that for a basis of denying something so I 'm turning it back to you people. Prior to it getting to City Council , do a — lot more homework. You' ve got somebody here, Jay I think it is , who has been studying this. He probably has some people' s name and knows all these locations and you 've got some of it done already. They' ve got proof INNM that the neighbors say it' s fine. I want to see proof that the neighbors say it isn ' t fine . That ' s what I 'm asking on the other side of the coin . As of now, I think I 'd have to approve it. I can ' t look at the conditions and say they don ' t meet them. I have to look at the conditions and say yes , you do meet them but I 'm not the final approval . It' s City Council . I 'm making an opinion. A lot of things change between then and now. A lot of things happen quite a number of times on issues by the time it gets - there so I 'm asking you, just to be a little more prepared . I know that you ' re concerned enough citizens. I don' t think that anyone wouldn' t want to do everything in their power and I 'm telling you there is something else you can do in your power to help the decision sway your way. Wildermuth : It ' s interesting to see so many people out on this emotional issue tonight . I think we can count on a higher level of participation in — Chanhassen government as a result of it. One of the things that ' s very vexing about looking at an application like this and looking at our ordinance is that one can' t construct a set of ordinances to keep one church out and allow another church in. We' ve got a set of ordinances . We' ve got some zoning provisions . The property owner of record in this case meets the intended use . Meets the zoning requirement . They have scrupulously met the conditions for the building codes or ordinances as they are presently codified . I have a concern about 20 employees in a church of 400 people on one hand. On the other hand, I guess it ' s probably none of my business . I don' t think we have a basis on which to — deny this application. Denial would have to be based on moral judgments and I don ' t think a governmental body can be in the business of making Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 38 moral judgments . They have to deal in facts . The facts are that a conditional use permits appear to be satisfied. Our permit standards _ appear to be satisfied . I will recommend approval . I guess there' s one final editorial comment that I 'd like to make and that is , it' s very troubling to see such high emotion toward a relatively unpopular church group. The country was founded on freedom on speech and freedom of — religion. Pursue the religious beliefs that we have or that we may have. I think the thrust of the emotion here tonight being to deny that. I guess that ' s dismaying . That' s all I have. Conrad: I have a few comments. A while back we did try to encourage a different use for this property when we rezoned it from campus business to some residential areas thinking that that would serve the needs of the — community and put maybe that area on the tax roll but as you see, even with that, this is a use that if they meet the letter of the law, they can receive. I have some questions of our attorney specifically. In the — conditional use permits, the different points. Number 1, we talk about the word comfort and I don' t know, I think the residents get concerned with the general term. I sympathize with them but what does comfort mean? Dave Grannis : It ' s a very difficult question to answer . Comfort means a lot of different things to a lot of different people but comfort might relate to noise . You might have a comfort level with a certain noise or a — discomfort level . It might relate to odor . It might relate to different kinds of activities . Traffic might affect comfort . I think you have to look at the use of a particular piece of property to determine whether — it ' s comfort or discomfort . I hope that answers your question . Conrad: I don ' t know that you' re going to give me, obviously these folks are not comfortable with what' s going on. Obviously when you look to a — condition that they' re trying to meet, their opinion would be they' re not comfortable and therefore Eckankar would not satisfy condition 1. In terms of health, safety and welfare, what are we looking at in health, — safety and welfare? Dave Grannis : I think health , again you can go back to environmental _ kinds of health or you can go back to traffic kinds of things. That' s health and safety. General welfare, the well being of the public may be endangered by the particular use that they may put this property to. Well , if they were manufacturing explosives , that might be a general — welfare, health, safety kind of an issue. You just have to kind of look at the words, apply the facts and make your determination. Conrad: Another condition, will not be disturbing to the existing neighborhoods . What does disturbing mean? Dave Grannis: Again, that ' s I guess one of those words that means different things to different people. In a legal sense , I think if it interferes with the enjoyment of one' s property, maybe it would be disturbing to the individual or to the property owner . In this particular — case, I would think that you have to . . . if you wanted to go in that direction, the activities of Eckankar may be disturbing to the surrounding area . Planning Commission Meeting March 1 , 1989 - Page 39 Conrad : So if Eckankar had a philosophy of outreach or door to door solicitation, that might be disturbing? - Dave Grannis : No . I think you' re getting , now you' re getting into the religious , moral kind of an issue and this is really a land use issue. That kind of activity is controlled or can be controlled by other city — ordinances. Soliciting for example and I 'm sure that you' ve probably dealt with that from time to time in your community. Conrad : Future expansion. They basically would have the right to, I guess the issue of a non-taxpaying resident in Chanhassen bothers me a little bit. I probably think we should be looking at property sizes for a non-taxpaying entity. There are no limits right now so Eckankar certainly — has the ability to take up all the acres but I think in the future we may want to take a real serious look at how much property we want to take off the tax roll . Wildermuth : Something like maximum size for a tax exempt? Emmings : Can you do it? Conrad : I think we could . — Dave Grannis : My only comment is , I think maybe what you ' re suggesting is questionable. Whether or not it ' s legal but it' s certainly another issue and maybe something that you would want to consider looking into . Conrad: In terms of Eckankar ' s impact on surrounding value, somebody could present a case where there would be a negative impact value wise which we would have to, if houses to the north depreciate based on some — expert ' s opinion , that might constitute an economic problem to the community. - Wildermuth : But reason to withdraw the conditional use permit? Emmings: You can remember the case with all the airplanes in Minneapolis? They just lost . All those homeowners . Conrad : Do we have the ability to restrict through ordinance an expansion of a use? And I think a lot of the folks here, they' re not comfortable — with it coming in period but there' s also another few comments saying , gee, it's changed over 3 years from the time they were here before. Other than the fact that they have to come back in and see us if they want to expand, are there alternatives to restrict expansion that might be legal to pursue? Dave Grannis : I think your alternative, first of all they would have to come back and I think everybody acknowledges that, if they wanted to expand . Between now and that time, if your zoning ordinances change in such a way, expansion may not be allowed. There' s nothing to prevent you — from doing those types of things but this conditional use , as long as they meet the terms and conditions of a permit should it be granted , and they Planning Commission Meeting _ March 1 , 1989 - Page 40 operate within that , it' s perfectly legal to do. Conrad: So it' s part of a permit? One, there' s no way to restrict future — expansion other than through a reapplication process? And future, in terms of zoning, there might be but . . . Erhart : It' s real simple. I 'm suggesting we just remove church from allowed use. . .which is legal . Ellson : After the fact? Erhart: No. We can . . . Wildermuth : It has to meet the definition of the church though in the Code. Erhart : Remove churches as an allowed use in a R-4 district as a conditional use. That would solve it. Conrad : I think just to reinforce what Annette said, legally they have — the right to do what they' re doing because they do meet our ordinances. I think, maybe there are cases where the City' s hands are tied and you think the City should go out and help. I think in some cases we can and City — Council , you can talk to the City Council and see what they feel might be a course for you. But on the other hand, I think there are some points that may be debateable and they are points that you have to follow up on, _ if they are debateable. I think the property value is one. I think our city staff does not feel it ' s going to be a negative impact . If you do, I think that' s something that you might pursue. I don' t know that the City can go out and do that. You may want to talk to your councilmen to find out. They might consider that . That might be one recourse. I think that ' s something I 'd be concerned with. I too would like to know more . I can treat this very clearly because I think they meet the letter of the — law. I agree with the folks here that you like to see who ' s moving into the neighborhood and you get real nervous when you don' t know who they are. Obviously they have different beliefs and they' re not like mine or yours but it just makes you real nervous and then you think about your kids and I think I know those concerns . It would be, and I don' t know if we can ever deal with them rationally, to tell you the truth. I 'm not sure that that' s possible . It would be nice to know. I think there have been some statements made. It would have been nice, in a different setting than this to go through some of their beliefs . Obviously, the people are not here for a reason and they didn ' t want to get into that obviously. They feel quite comfort that legally they can get this approved and I think they' re right. But the point is, you like to have people moving into the community who you like and know and want to be around and they' re not here tonight so that gives me a little bit of a — hollow feeling . We have developers coming into town and we say meet with the residents and just talk to them. It' s still not. . . for sure but at least you can get some sense for what they' re doing and I 'd prefer to hear some real absolute comments and some real evidence versus some emotional comments because it ' s tough to react to emotional stuff because it doesn ' t stand up anyplace. Real research does and I think it' s persuasive to the — Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1939 - Page 41 City Council . I don' t know enough about Eckankar right now. Nothing ' s been provided . Three years ago I saw a lot of information and they appeared to be very fine community citizens . That ' s what I saw 3 years ago and I haven' t been persuaded one way or another tonight that they' re — not . I heard you . I heard the comments and I know you ' re nervous and I 'm a little bit nervous too. I just don' t know what my kids are going to be around but I didn' t hear something that I could hang on to. I would like to know more about them. I don' t think that 's an obligation on their part . I wished they would have preferred to do that . I wish they would have been here or set up some forum for us to understand better. My opinion is narrow in terms of what we can do at the Planning Commission and it is to take a look at the 12 conditions and see how they apply. I have some questions about some of them as I expressed but right now I haven ' t heard anything so I ' ve got a choice to make either to table this — and have some of those things brought back or to pass it along to City Council in hopes that maybe the community or the residents who are real interested in the issue, would do a little bit of work and maybe talk to the City Council on this subject . I think we can do some things in the future that might regulate some of these things and maybe even regulate a little bit about what Eckankar does. That ' s why I wanted to bring some of those up. I ' ve made notes and we will take on some of those tasks to see what we can do. As I said , we did try to switch it from a big property into residential because I think that ' s what the neighborhood wanted and I think it's what the community needs . We do have a big problem now in — Chanhassen if this goes through , is we don' t have enough residential space in higher density. We did program that for higher density because it ' s closer to downtown and closer to some main highways . I think what this does, it takes it out of that residential use. I think Chanhassen and Don and the City Council have some, and we have to figure out where more land is coming from because there is pressure to develop and I don' t think everybody is going to move out because of Eckankar . I think there' s just — tremendous pressure to grow. Therefore, I can relate to the comments. I don' t think that I ' ve been persuaded right now to vote negatively. I think I 'm concerned with several issues. I would hope that those issues - could be followed up by the residents . I think the biggest issue I have is property value. I do have a concern with some of the words in the ordinance and I just really have, or in our conditions that we have to satisfy. I 'm nervous about, I think the operation there could impact the community. I think it could be negative to the community. Don' t believe it is but I don't know. I just don' t know and I think because it' s taking a lot of our potentially taxable land away, I think we have to really know — and we may never be satisfied from a religious standpoint. We don' t need converts. We don' t have to say we believe in the religion but we have to believe that they' re not going to negatively impact us. To me what' s negative is different from other people. And I don' t know if there' s any legal justification for what I 'm just saying but it ' s something that I just think when the City takes 174 acres , or whatever the number is , out of use, we' ve got to be pretty convinced that it' s a good neighbor coming — in. So I have those comments but I 'm not sure that I can vote against it right now and I think my preference is to send it along to City Council . Hopefully they read our comments . We' ve got the Mayor is here and other - councilmen are here and I think they' ll consider this. I think there' s only so much we can do on this issue and I think we can do some things in Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 42 the future but it may not be satisfactory to you right now. So with those comments, I would accept a motion. Erhart : Can I make another comment? Conrad: Sure. _ Erhart : It disturbs me a little bit . We ' ve had over 560 names on a petition come in here. We ' ve had approximately 200 people come in and _ take their evening on this issue . The people here I assume mostly are citizens of Chanhassen. We' ve had myself, Steve and yourself indicate that you ' re uncomfortable with the information you have. You'd like more. Annette has stated that the people here that came tonight owe us more information . There ' s a sense that the City is incapable of responding to the money that was spent for this presentation. I just think that' s wrong . I think we owe our citizens more than that . I don ' t think we are — incapable. We spent last year, if I look at the City budget, $400,000. 00 on consultants and I think we are capable of taking some time and hiring our own consultants so that we get into a fair ballgame and we get this _ information in front of us so either us or the City Council , and I don' t disagree that we should send it on but I think we ought to give a message to the City Council and the staff that we think the City, given the concern we have, and these are our citizens today. Eckankar is not. — They' re a landowner but they' re not citizens of Chanhassen . I think we owe it to them to do our own independent study on this thing . Conrad : What would you study? Erhart : I 'd study the appraisal situation . I 'd study their history on other sites around the country and find out what kind of a neighbor they are . Conrad : In terms of? _ Erhart: Excess services required . I already stated property values . As I stated before, I think we ought to take the time to check with the _ Attorney General ' s office to review what this is and to try to get a feel of what is this? Is it a pseudo-church? Pseudo-business? Where is the line drawn here? Where is there a line on this? We' ve seen it, anybody who reads the newspapers has seen it ' s becoming a hazy line what' s a — church and what ' s a business these days with television. I won' t say anything further . I really think as a message to the Council is that we ought to spend some time. I think it' s owed to these people on what , — there ' s 174 acres and a lot of money involved here , if nothing to do with the moral issues . Conrad : If we hired a consultant to evaluate conditions 1, 4 , 6 and 11 . — Is that within our . . . , an independent consultant reviewing? Dave Grannis : Yes , it certainly is . I 'm not sure that this body has the — authority to hire an appraiser . Conrad : We don ' t but we could make those recommendations . • Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 43 Dave Grannis : You could make a recommendation to the Council to hire a real estate person. Do what other even additional investigation you deem appropriate and the Council would have to decide what they want to do. — Conrad: I think that's not a bad idea. I think the question is, do we want to, again , we' ve got to forward it on so they can appropiate money or not. Any other comments? Wildermuth: I don' t know what that' s going to solve though Ladd . .Our hired gun against their hired gun. — Conrad : That ' s alright . Ellson : It' s the proof that we need . I was wondering , if we' re putting — together a case anti them, doesn ' t that look a little shakey in the Court? We contacted 260 and we found one. I don' t know if it ever got sued or whatever that we would look like we have any ground to stand on. It looks like the City was trying to keep people out so you hired people to give you a report. Dave Grannis : Not necessarily. Ellson : I mean I would love to be able to do that . I was just wondering what it would look like. I 'm the one who said I want more proof. If we — can legally do it and a Judge would sit there and say that ' s fine. It was unbiased and I 'm all for it. My first instinct is you ' re hiring someone to do a study and you' re hoping that it will show you what you want. Conrad: I think Jim, they may not find out anything but I think it' s kind of city tax dollars and I think the residents , there have been enough that said, although a lot of them aren' t from Chanhassen, I wish they were — helping pay for some of this but I think there' s enough residents that said we' re concerned that they'd probably say spend some of our money to do a little bit of research on this and persuade us that we' re not going to have our property values aren' t going to go down. I think that ' s real valid. I think that' s real valid to use city money that way yet I don' t make that decision. Is there a motion? - Emmings: I ' ll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Conditional Use Permit #89-1 for Eckankar Church subject to plans and descriptive packet stamped "Received January 23, 1989" with the conditions — set forth in the staff report with the additional conditions identified by Tim from page 4, that' s number 7 , 8 , 9 and 10 of Gary Warren' s report. With the additional condition , again brought up by Tim that there would be no outdoor speaker system connected with the construction. Then I don' t recall , I wrote down nutrient, assessment of the nutrient impact on Lake Riley. Was that ever performed? — Erhart : That ' s one of Gary' s. Emmings : Okay, that ' s one of Gary' s so forget that one . That ' s my — motion . Planning Commission Meeting — March 1, 1989 - Page 44 Ellson : I ' ll second it. Emmings : If I can discuss my own motion right off the bat. I agree that — the City Council should look at the issue of impact on property since it was raised by as many people as it was that live right near by. To take a look at that issue so they' re comfortable. That is a troublesome thing. I — didn ' t put it in my motion. I think it should go maybe as a separate recommendation because I think maybe the scope of what Tim wants investigated and the scope of what I 'd want looked into might be different _ and maybe we could all express our own ideas about what the scope of any further investigation might be and just pass that off as comments to the City Council . That was my note on that. Conrad : What do you think Tim? Erhart : I think I already made my comments of what I think I 'd like to have investigated. Perhaps the other members would like to expand on it. Conrad : But in terms of the motion , by the procedure of voting on this separately and then making a recommendation separately from the motion? — Erhart : Sure . Conrad : Any other discussion? Ellson : I think we already covered the property values . I don' t think we _ should go through a lot of them. The other one that I suggested earlier was the definition of church . Maybe this is the only one of the 259 out there that doesn' t have a Bible Camp associated with it. By looking at the land they' re buying , maybe they are thinking that down the road so I think we should also be looking at how the other locations apply to our definition of church. Long range. Short range. Things like that too as well as the property value and comfort level and the other ones we' ve — already discussed . Erhart : Ladd , in response to your question , what I would like to see the _ sequence is to have, table the motion and have the study done. The other way' s fine too . I ' ll just vote against it . Emmings moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Conditional Use Permit #89-1 for Eckankar Church subject to the plans and descriptive packet stamped "Received January 23 , 1989" with the following conditions : 1. Add trees to the center landscape islands with parking lot. 2. Curb the parking lot edge where head in stalls are shown, and the landscape islands at the end of the service drive. 3. Entrance sign is not to be illuminated . 4 . Lighting poles reduced to 15 ' - 18 ' in height . Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 45 5. Roof material to have matte finish and not glare. 6. Exterior of building must not be illuminated . 7 . The nose of the proposed island cannot extend into the right-of-way of CSAH 17. The right-of-way line is 50 feet from the roadway centerline . The County would prefer that the entrance design be similar to the design of the entrance on the east side of CSAH 17. 8. A plan must be presented showing the proposed road grade and cross section. The plan should identify the need for the large radius on the proposed entrance . It is the preference of the County to have the radius less than 50 feet. 9. Turn lanes will be required on the entrance. The entrance application should include the turn lane design details . 10. The applicant be required to submit construction plans and specifications for the installation of the watermain and sanitary sewer lines for approval by the City Engineer . 11. Runoff calculations be submitted to confirm that the pre-development runoff rate criteria of the Watershed District and the City are being complied with. 12. A drainage easement be dedicated to the City in accordance with the attached legal description and sketch to accommodate storm water runoff. 13 . Necessary permits from the County and Watershed District are obtained and complied with prior to construction . 14 . A roadway cross-section shall be submitted for review along with the skimmer detail plan as discussed in the EAW for the parking lot area . 15. The applicant shall use Type III erosion control throughout the site. 16. Concrete barrier curbing be included on the entrance roadway and parking perimeters . — 17 . The applicant address the nutrient loading impacts to Riley Lake . 18. The applicant address the concerns of the County Engineer as presented in the February 15, 1989 correspondence. 19. The applicant cooperate with the City in the future siting of a frontage road paralleling TH 5. 20. There shall be no outside speaker system on the site. — All voted in favor except Erhart who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Planning Commission Meeting _ March 1, 1989 - Page 46 Erhart : For the record , I would like to see it tabled until we had further information. — Conrad : And then maybe I ' ll start the process in terms of what , we also recommend , we' ve got to make a motion so I can ' t do it. — Emmings : Do we have to make a motion or can we just do it as . . . Conrad: I ' ll preface it. We make a recommendation to the City Council . Because we' re taking such a large parcel of land from Chanhassen and putting it in a non-tax generating mode, that we feel it' s important to be comfortable with several issues in regard to the Eckankar application. — That we'd like to have the City Council consider hiring an independent consultant to review Eckankar ' s impact on property values, the additional services that they may need, the status that Eckankar has as a church and it ' s application to conditions 1, 4 , 6 and 11, our requirements for conditional use permit. Anything else? Emmings: I concur with that recommendation. — Conrad: Any contrary opinions? This item will go to City Council April 10th. Thank you for coming in. It ' s fun to see the chambers filled — occasionally even if it' s not always a pleasant thing we' re talking about but I 'd invite you to stay on the issue and talk to your councilmen and watch it as it goes through the City Council . Thank you for attending . — APPROVAL JF MINUTES : Batzli moved , Ellson seconded to approve the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated February 15, 1989 as presented . -' All voted in favor except Erhart who abstained and the motion carried . Batzli moved, Emmings seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried . The meeting was adjourned at 11 : 30 p.m. . Submitted by Steve Hanson Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION - REGULAR MEETING MARCH 15, 1989 Vice Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7 : 35 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Ladd Conrad, Annette Ellson, Steve Emmings, Brian Batzli , Jim Wildermuth and David Headla STAFF PRESENT: Steve Hanson, Planning Director and Jo Ann Olson, Asst. - City Planner PUBLIC HEARING: Imo REPLAT OF LOTS 1 AND 2, BLOCK 2, CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK, 2ND ADDITION INTO ONE LOT ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP AND LOCATED AT THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF CR 17 AND LAKE DRIVE, AMCON CORPORATION FOR EMPAK, INC. Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report on thi.s item. — Vice Chairman Emmings called the public hearing to order . Conrad moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted i.n favor and the motion carried . The public hearing was closed . Headla: I think the recommendations are appropriate. I think there should be a second condition that the staff recommended . That' s . . . the — site plan gets approved for thi.s item. In other words , if we don ' t approve. . . then whoever gets it gets the two lots. Emmings: So the notion would be if the site plan' s not approved it would stay two lots . Otherwise , it would be joined as one. Wildermuth: I have nothing . Ellson : It looks pretty good to me. — Conrad: I have no comments. I don' t know that we need to make it conditional . Staff , does that make any sense? Conditional i.n terms of the site plan being approved. If some owner wants to replat. . . Headla : I think it makes sense. Why do it when someone else may come in? Conrad: It ' s their right. Headla : To come in yes . Conrad : It' s their right to just join properties together . Headla : But I think we want to know what we' re joining and why. — Conrad : We did. Those two pieces of property. Headla: That ' s right. For this company for this reason. I think we — ought to approve it for this reason. Not for some other reason later on that some other company does it. Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 2 Erhart : I have no comments and I guess regarding the second item, I guess I don' t see any reason Dave either . If they decide not to build the — building , they probably wouldn' t follow through with this anyway so I guess I don' t see a reason for a second condition. Batzli : Is part of the replat issue the easements? Vacation? Emmings: No. Hanson : You don' t act on the vacation. Council acts on that. Batzli : I just had one question about that and that was , in the — discussion about Well No. 4 there needs to be access or something , is that handled by what we ' re doing with this piece of property? It says that they need to have access during construction and something else but do they need continued access after the development of the property? The street goes to it? I couldn ' t tell where the well was I guess was my biggest problem. — Olsen: The engineering, when they come out with their plans and specs, all that will be determined and if they need an easement or cross easement, they can be. Right at this time they did not feel that they — needed a utility easement or anything like that . Batzli : Where is Well No . 4? — Emmings: It ' s not on this property is it? Erhart : It ' s on this side here. It' s down by, right there. That little box there. Where we have all the city parties. It' s actually a public park and a well building put all together and it ' s used for , the public can use it. — Batzli : This little block down here? Erhart: Yes, it' s cut off at the bottom. Batzli : And how else would you get access if it wasn ' t over this property? Hanson: Ultimately we' ll have access off of Lake Drive when that ' s extended through. But during the interim, Lake Drive won' t be installed . — Batzli : So you' re going to access it via this property and you say somewhere in one of the conditions that you want access during the — development and construction phase or something? Emmings: Let' s do this on the site plan review. Let' s finish with the replat . Just remember to bring it up because I think it ' s an important thing. Batzli : Okay. — Planning Commission Meeting March 15 , 1989 - Page 3 Olsen: It ' s part of an easement that we are requiring that wouldn' t affect the platting at all if that' s what you' re getting at now. Batzli : Yes , I didn' t know where it should be addressed to be honest with you. — Emmings : I don' t have any comments . I don' t see in your reason to add the second condition. Right now there are two lots there. These folks want to build on both of them. They' ve got to combine them into one and - if the replat goes through and they don' t build, then whoever comes in there has to deal with it as a single lot , one large lot and that doesnt ' bother me. I could see doing it either way and I don' t really care which way i.t goes myself. I don' t see any compelling reason to do it but it could be done. So is there a motion? — Ellson moved , Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Subdivision Request #89-3 to create Lot 1, Block 1 Empak Addition as shown on the plat stamped "Received March 1, 1989" with the following condition: 1. That the applicant receive vacation of the interior drainage and utility easements. All voted in favor except Headla who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 6 to 1. Emmings: And David for the reasons that you stated? Headla: Yes. I think it' s appropriate for this person, if they go ahead with it but if something happens and i.t defaults and goes to someone else, I think it should go back to two. SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR PHASE I AND PHASE II FOR AN OFFICE/MANUFACTURING/ - WAREHOUSE FACILITY ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP, INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK AND LOCATED ON THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF COUNTY ROAD 17 AND LAKE DRIVE, SOUTH OF HWY. 5, AMCON CORPORATION FOR EMPAK, INC. - Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report . Emmings: Jo Ann, the Lake Drive, when does that road get built? Olsen : They' re getting real close to it . I think they' re going to start construction this fall . Emmings : Okay, so that' s going to be after construction of this? Olsen: They' ll have to get temporary access from Carver County to get temporary access from County Road 17 . • Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 4 Emmings : But there will be a road there, a finished road there this year? Olsen: It ' s supposed to be. Again, you never know when they' re going to be completed . Emmings : Is there a plan? — Olsen: Yes . Emmings: If it goes according to plan , there will be a road? Lake Drive East will be there this year? Olsen : It ' s supposed to be fi.nished this year , yes . That ' s my understanding. Erhart : Who builds that? The County? The City? — Olsen: The City is building that. The feasibility study has been approved and it ' s going to be coming in also with Rosemount so there' s a lot of pressure to get it installed now. Emmings : This is not a public hearing but the applicants are here anyway I guess. Do the applicants want to address items in the staff report? — Particular the conditions . Have you read the conditions? Todd Kristoferson: I 'm Todd Kristoferson. I 'm with Empak for the — applicant and we received a copy of the report last week and since then we' ve been talking with City Staff, County Staff, Watershed District regarding some of the conditions that we 've got and all of the conditions we — we feel that can be worked out with staff between now and the 10th of April which is the Council meeting . So if there isn ' t anything specific that you want to ask me, I guess I 'd just like to leave it at that. We are aware of all these conditions and we feel that they can be worked out. Emmings: I don' t know what Empak does . Can you tell us what they do? Todd Kristoferson: Larry Welter here is with Empak and maybe he could address those. Larry Welter : Empak is a plastic molding company. Taking plastic residue and converting it into a product. This facility will be used for molding bottles . Emmings : Any comments? Tim? Erhart : More comments on the administration than on the site plan itself. — There ' s an existing creek running down the eastern portion of this property, draining to the south and to Lake Susan. What ' s the plan for the oak trees that surround that creek? Olsen : I believe right now that that future, they won ' t really be touched right now. . . Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 5 Todd Kristoferson: I guess I know where the oak trees are from driving by the site but I 'm not sure exactly where they sit in relation to this phase of the project . Erhart : It appears from your building that what you ' re currently putting uo, with the 20 parking spaces. It appears the building you ' re currently putting up won ' t affect existing trees but your plant expansion, I don' t know. It ' s hard to tell . It looks like that may or may not affect it. I might be wrong. Most of the trees may be actually down in this area. Is that what it is? Olsen: This site, has hardly any trees on it. . . Erhart: What is the plan to do with the creek? I heard one time that we were just going to replace it with a culvert. Todd Kristoferson: The plan is part of the City' s improvements with the street and the plan is to replace the creek with a 36 inch storm sewer that will drain property from the north of the railroad tracks and also pick up the drainage from our project and the street . Erhart : And our engineering department is making those recommendations? Todd Kristoferson: Yes . lam Wildermuth: I think that ' s the storm sewer plan for the street according to Gary Warren' s letter . Erhart : We' re eliminating a creek with a culvert . I guess that strikes me as . . . Wildermuth : Why wouldn' t the DNR comment on that? Erhart: Creeks are not official wetlands. We learned that about a year — ago here in another subdivision. Olsen : It ' s protected by the Watershed District and the Watershed District is also involved with that storm water study. Wildermuth: I didn' t see a letter in here from the Watershed District . — Olsen: This project isn ' t. . . Erhart : What project do we see where we get to comment on the idea of — turning a creek into a culvert? Olsen : I believe it was the downtown storm water . That went before the Council . Hanson : About a month or two ago. It was all part of the Lake Drive improvements and the assessments that were being done for the improvement — of that which also included storm sewer and water and sewer lines along Lake Drive. Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 6 Olsen : It ' s always been in that storm water management plan to bring the _ water from the downtown area to the pond that' s going to be in the park or south. Erhart : Everytime you get rid of wetlands, it ' s always someone' s plan to — put a house here or industrial building. It ' s the same thought process that has caused us to allow 80% of our wetlands, loss of wetlands . . . It ' s really scary that the City are on one hand eliminating wetlands at the — same time have such strict ordinances regarding preservation of wetlands. Maybe this is all good common sense and everything but then again, maybe this is a little one page in the back of a document someplace that no one _ really had a chance to look at. Just never really, it got through with everything else. I sort of heard about this some weeks ago and I guess I ' d like to maybe , I ' ll let the other commissioners comment but it disturbs me that we' re doing this. So that' s my comment on that one. — Administratively, we' ve got 27 conditions on this and I think it seems like the number of conditions has grown. Like some of these things. One, and I think I ' ve heard the rest of the commission comment here, I think it becomes difficult to assess and provide valuable comments to the Council when it' s difficult to really see what the plan is. For example, it ' s hard to go home and study the landscaping plan when it isn' t there and then to respond to them at point in front of the camera with just a — comment. So some of these things, aren ' t they standards? Maybe they' re not but like for example , the turn in the roadway shall maintain a minimum road width and shall be constructed with the minimum radius and 25 feet. — Is that a standard or is that something special to this particular site plan? Olsen : It ' s pretty standard . Erhart: Parking lot lanes shall have a minimum of 25 feet clear width. Is that a standard or is that special to this? — Olsen : That' s the fire , Mark Littfin came in. . . Batzli : But Tim aren' t these things normally in the other engineering and staff reviews and we kind of incorporate them by reference and in this particular one you ' ve set them all out? Isn' t that one of the big differences? — Olsen : I usually spell out . Batzli : A lot of times we incorporate by reference. Things like saying that it' s from Larry Brown' s memo dated such and such. I agree. We rarely have 27 conditions . — Olsen : When we got that from the engineering , department we did discuss what to do and I did contact the applicant and requested to have something in response to a lot of those conditions before we came in front of you . — It was misunderstood that he thought I meant March 27th but anyway, yes a lot of those are typical and if you don' t want them spelled out , we don' t need to. — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 7 Emmings: I think when you were gone, you missed something. I think it started down here at this end. Dave went on a war path and we all agreed that there is no sense to having so damn many conditions . There are some subjects that come up here 3 times in different conditions and it seems to me they could easily have been put under one heading or there could have been a heading for things that need to be done before it gets to City — Council and those listed as sub things. Have them organized in some way. As far as, I can ' t wait to get to Dave. That's what I started at this end . I 'm saving him for last . As far as this goes , this is the worse one I think I ' ve ever seen in that regard and I think you kind of missed . . . Olsen : No , I heard it. And I totally agree. That ' s something we've been trying to . . . Emmings : And you' re going to hear it 7 more times tonight. — Olsen: I agree that we want to do that. It was just a surprise when we got that memo from the engineering department . It was a little spread out and I couldn' t condense it. I don' t have the reasons. Emmings : Tim, you ' re still on. Erhart : I 'm not going to through it but it seems to me, I marked them at — home, like 9 or 10 of these, it appears they were just standard conditions that were just restated again. Things like revised plan should be submitted for approval that address the conditions and discussion — contained i.n the staff report . What does that mean? They have to revise your plans even to your discussion because it says discussion contained in the staff report . Even though you might show two sides of an argument, they have to show both sides. So anyway, I think we need to shorten these but I think we need two things. There' s a comment we made previously. We need to have plans more closely to finished form which I think is what Dave has been asking for . Then secondly, if it ' s not , we want to be able — to identify for the Council things that are unique I think in these conditions. Unique to this particular subdivision if I 'm not wrong because I think that' s what we' re trying to do is bring up to the Council - special circumstances related to this particular subdivision so they can think about those when they' re reading their comments. Other than that, I think there really isn ' t a lot of say about this particular subidivision other than I guess is it possible to go through what the revised landscaping plan is at this point? I guess I would be interested i.n seeing that but , that' s the only real thing I had along where the creek was in the trees. Conrad : My comments are very similiar . Just out of curiousity, the first point says all signage must meet the conditions of the sign ordinance. Do we have indication that they don ' t? So is this communication to the people who are doing the project so they pay attention? Is this the right vehicle to do that? Olsen : We don ' t have a detailed signage plan. Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 8 Conrad : Okay, so really your comment is , we don' t have the details on the sign so you can ' t make comments until the details are in. Generally, does this mean that staff hasn ' t worked together real closely with the group on this project or what do the conditions or whatever mean? Hanson: I think really what it means is , it points up the flaw that we have in the process that we are operating under . As an example, submittal date for your next meeting was Monday of this week. In order to set the agenda for that meeting we have to put public notice i.n the paper this — Friday. Referrals go out this week. We get the comments back from even engineering, even departments within the city the week that we write the staff report . Quite often we write our recommendation and we haven' t received comments from the other departments. The way we set it up in the — process is that' s coming through word processing . We get their comments and the secretaries essentially trade disks and all the engineering comments come out under our recommendation. I think in this particular — case, there are several items that come listed out and that' s for a couple of reasons . It ' s a different person at engineering who reviewed the plans who ' s ever done it before as far as the City so they, I think to their — credit, were very particular about what they did and they noted everything. I personally believe that that' s very appropriate for them to do . If the process was massaged a little bit, we would have those comments, give those to the applicant so they would have time to respond . As it is now, they' re kind of behind the 8 ball in all honesty to be able to respond to something. Right now our option is to say to them, if we can go ahead , because we don' t perceive a lot of the conditions as big — deals, I think they' re agreeable to all of them. A lot of them are fairly standard items. They' re Code requirements if you will . Engineering stanards but we don' t want those not to show up in the conditions because we want to make sure that those are addressed. We would like to see essentially all of these convered prior to going to Council . On the signage thing, they haven' t submitted anything as far as a specific signage for it but also they can get the site plan approved , come back at — a point later and file for a sign permit i.n comformance with the Code so it' s not something that necessarily comes back to the Planning Commission for approval . The reason that we put that condition in there is to make it clear that they' re not asking for something that ' s out of the ordinary. Conrad: How do you want to massage this process? Is there, I agree with what you' re saying . In this particular case we' re just hit with so many -' but Steve, do you see the proces changing at all? Elison : He made a suggestion once before about that committee thing or — whatever. Didn' t you make a suggestion one other time before about a committee or something? A preliminary thing . Hanson : What I 'm hoping to do is to get a process put together and bring it back to the Planning Commission hopefully next month . No promises but hopefully in that time frame and one of the things I 'm looking at essentially two alternatives . One is that we move the submittal date back — 2 weeks so there' s a time for stuff to get reviewed and you get comments and then you do a public notice . The other option from doing that is to leave it the way it is and say, tell the applicant , look we can publish — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 9 - the notice and we can go ahead, if it ' s not ready, we' re going to pull it . If we have to republish then, we may reassess you but that becomes rather cumbersome and what I 'd like to do is have a system where they can submit stuff and if everything' s complete, we can proceed ahead and if there' s something that needs to be corrected , we have a means for doing that without essentially put out agendas that have items that aren' t fully complete. Emmings : Why wouldn' t you just go ahead and do that? What militates against doing precisely that? Moving that back 2 weeks . Olsen: We get a lot of pressure from the applicants that it ' s already taking so long . — Hanson : To do that , I would like to have that endorsement. I would like to have the endorsement of the Planning Commission. . .especi.ally people who have been active in the community in bringing development projects — through. I can guarantee you ' re going to get calls and there' s going to be complaints until people understand it. On the other hand , we have applicants who have never dealt with the process here and find it very frustrating because they never get any input essentially until Friday before your meeting . Conrad : The point is, you should have agreement . When you come here — though you should have pretty much agreement with the applicant except for where you disagree and that ' s where we should kind of come in and have our comments. Hanson : The other thing I think where there ' s a flaw is , I think we agree and they agree that the conditions are appropriate. Where I can see where you would be nervous is for example on the second one where we ' re talking about the landscaping and doing some changes to that where you ' re not seeing that so essentially you' re relying on staff to handle that . You never know. Conrad : And 1 or 2 is fine. 27 seemed to be, we' re out of control . Some other specific questions. What is 2 foot continuous screening? Olsen : The ordinance requires with a berm or screening . Conrad : So what is 2 foot continuous? Ellson : Bushes? Conrad: Is that a bush? Olsen : Usually it' s a bush . Usually what they' ve used for screening is _ bermi.ng but this with the topography here you really couldn ' t berm a hill so they pretty much. . . Conrad : Okay, is 50% opacity is that our standard? Olsen: Yes . Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 10 Conrad : I think one of these things we care about as long as you agree that they' re alright. Information on where drainage is discharged and the possible need for a retention pond for wetland pollution and nutrient loading impacts. What does that mean? That really means drainage and does i.t mean that we ' re not comfortable with the drainage? - Olsen: They usually submit calculations that show how much of the roof drainage there will be or runoff from the site and I believe engineering _ just wanted to see those calculations to determine whether or not the pond to the south is able to handle that or if there should be a pond . Conrad: So there may be a need for a pond? Olsen : Which means a drainage easement on the plat. Conrad: So we' re not looking at the final thing. So what' s going to City Council will be quite a bit different , or a little bit different . Number 24, plans should address the proper movement of pedestrian traffic around — the building and site . Olsen : I asked him on that one and he was discussing showing sidewalks and things like that and that ' s not really. . . Conrad : We haven ' t done that to anybody else . Now i.t is an interesting thing. If we put employees in big buildings, I think there' s validity in — traffic movement or pedestrian movement around but we haven ' t done that to my knowledge to anybody else so that one, I think you can work with the applicant on that and figure out what you want to do. On one level , in _ the package Jo Ann someplace in here where we show, way towards the back, the schematic where we show a wetland on the other side of the road . What kind of wetland is that? Olsen : I don ' t know if that is a designated wetland . Conrad: It may or may not be a designated wetland. If we built a road — over it, would that need a wetland alteration permit? Because we' d force everybody else to do that. Olsen : I don ' t know if they. . . Conrad: I think City Council should know. Erhart : That whole area down there is intended for park I believe. Hanson: Yes. Erhart : I think the intent is to make that into a ballfi.eld . What it is is it is cropped. There was agricultural crops on it today but it floods out frequently. — Olsen : I can check on that . I 'm not sure. Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 11 — Conrad : Would you check out and see what that is Jo Ann? And I agree with Tim' s comments on the overall concern with making creeks into culverts . We didn' t see it . I 'm concerned like Tim is . Olsen: We could have, if you want, we could ask Gary Warren to comment on these plans . — Conrad : The Chairman can decide what he wants to do . Emmings: I 'm going to appoint a committee to decide what to do and you' re it . Ellson: In general I think the site plan looks fine. I 'm not going to belabor the point about 27 conditions . I think it' s been discussed enough and I think we' re going to be dealing with that so I ' ll leave you to Dave. Batzli : I agree about the 27 conditions. Enough said on that. The — condition 3, additional phases or expansion of the site will require a site plan review. I 'm assuming you ' re talking about the hatched line which says plant expansion? I 'm also assuming that if you put that plant expansion on there, there' s no way that they have the necessary percentage of impervious to non-impervious . Olsen : I think they show that they still meet it even with that expansion. Batzli : Well they would need additional parking I would assume when they put that expansion in as well . Olsen : That will all be reviewed if they have adequate parking versus the square footage. Batzli : What is the percentage? - Olsen: 70% impervious . Batzli : But they say Phase 1, 17% covered by building . Then the 16% - impervious so they' re saying there' s only 33%. Now wait a minute, what is the total percentage of green space on this baby? Olsen: The first phase is the 17% and the 16% . Batzli : What' s the 3. 7%? What' s the difference between impervious surface and parking area? Olsen : They usually do the site covered by building and impervious surface and you just add those two together . 17% and 16%. Actually I - added them all up. They' re definitely below it now and that ' s something we would look at in the future. Todd Kristoferson : I guess to answer that I would say that the Phase 2 that ' s shown on there is just to show the intent and the direction of the building expansion and exactly how that would lay out and exactly how the Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 12 parking would lay out would be designed at the time the Phase 2 goes ahead and at that time we'd like to bring it in. Batzli : For instance, let ' s say you' re going to need a retention pond due to the water off the roof. About the only place you' re going to be able to put it is where your plant expansion goes . If that ' s the case, would - you even want to put up the building? The first phase? Todd Kristoferson : I would say if we had to put up an 80 , 000 square foot retention pond, no. We probably would look at that very, very seriously at this point . I 'm assuming that if we need a pond , that we' ll have that resolved with the Watershed District between now and the Council . I have talked to Bob Obermeyer at the Watershed District about this site in — general and we are working on our calculations for him. Talked about what might be needed . It' s not apparent at this time that any pond at all will be needed and certainly not one of that size. — Conrad : Brian , I think it' s a good point. Given the fact that there' s, on the diagram it says that there are a 89, 600 square feet addition. That to me would indicate to the applicant that we agree with that and we don' t think we want to. I don' t think we want to say anything about agreeing to the second phase at this point . It' s good to know where they' re going but I don ' t think the approval is the approval or sanctioning an 89,000 square foot addition . Batzli : No , and I understand that condition 3 is attempting to say that we don ' t approve of the plant expansion but. . . Ellson : You want to be a little more specific maybe? Batzli : Maybe. I think it' s very specific on this plan what the direction and intent of the applicant is and I don' t think, well we certainly don' t have enough information in front of us to agree to that at all . Didn ' t we require a recent applicant for roof drainage to have traps of some kind and things like that coming off the roof? Olsen : Rosemount, yes . Batzli : Are we requiring these people to do that? Olsen: No, but Rosemount was directing it right into a wetland and so that ' s why we had that . It' s something we could add on . Batzli : This is going into the creek isn' t it? Olsen : I believe it' s going down with the runoff to the south. Hanson: It' s going into the proposed storm sewer system. Olsen : Which ends up in the pond and then the lake . — Batzli : Lake Susan? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 13 - Olsen : It ends up in the pond right north of Lake Susan and then it goes into the lake. Although Lake Drive East is going to direct everything to the east but not on this site . It ' s something you could add . It has a couple large rooftop and because it was going right to that wetland , that ' s why we brought that up. It ' s something that can ' t hurt . Batzli : I guess if in fact the drainage off of the roof is going into the storm sewer , the storm sewer i.s going to end up in one of our lakes or streams. It doesn' t matter to me one way or another whether it ' s going right into a pond or into the storm sewer . It ' s going to end up in our water. I would prefer to see that we treat people somewhat equally as well as I prefer to see them put in the proper strainers or whatever they need to do for that. My last question, two questions sorry. One is the easement again for Well 4 or potential requirement for an easement , — depending on when we build Lake Drive. If you' re satisfied with condition 25 that all we need is access during construction and development, I ' ll be satisfied but if we don' t know when Lake Drive is going in, I think we may — want to, it ' s included not only during construction and development but thereafter until Lake Drive is constructed. The last thing, construction traffic shall not conflict with the City' s improvement project which is condition 26 and I assume you mean the improvement project i.s Lake Drive? Hanson: The Lake Drive and the storm sewer and the water in the sewer being constructed in the Lake Drive right-of-way. Batzli : Okay. I I would guess prefer that we say what improvement we' re talking about. Those are my comments and my honest opinion is that I think we should table the matter . Wildermuth: I would definitely like to see a more complete package come to us with far fewer conditions. I guess I have a coupe of questions for the applicant . Are you planning any undergroung storage tanks for retention of any kind of solvents or washing solution or anything like that? Larry Welter : No. Most of the raw products is brought in and how I form plastic, it' s stored in outdoor storage tanks and it ' s piped into the building during the manufacturing process and converted directly into the bottles. Wildermuth : So any waste ' you have is solid waste? Larry Welter: Right . — Wildermuth: And it ' s probably reprocessed? Larry Welter: Right . Wildermuth : How about processed water requirements? Do you have any processed water? Holding machines generally, are you going to have heating and cooling , stand alone heating and cooling units for the dies or — are you going to require cooling water? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 14 Larry Welter : The equipment does have, by it' s cooling water although most of it is, it ' s all recycled to clean water . There' s very little waste . Wildermuth : So you ' re not going to have any, you' ll probably have some processed cooling tower , processed cooling water towers right? — Larry Welter : Correct . Wildermuth: And those will be the rooftop units? But nothing will go down the drain? Larry Welter : Mainly i.n the sanitary. Wildermuth: The water demand will be to make up the processed cooling water that you lose in the rooftop units? 78 , 000 square feet of factory — space and you' re only going to have 50 people on one shift? Larry Welter : That ' s the initial phase , yes . — Wildermuth: Yes , for Phase 1. What do you do with all the floor space with only 50 people on a shift? Larry Welter: It ' s mainly storage. It takes a lot of room. Wildermuth : Your product is bulky? I don ' t know if this is an issue that — the applicant has to be concerned with , or if it ' s a city issue, but Jo Ann do we want to look at maintaining a creek where the 36 inch storm sewer should be going or is that something that the Watershed people Olsen : That ' s out of my hands with planning . I don' t know if that ' s really what the engineering , if that was part of the plan that was — approved by Council . I can look into that and see what the possibility of changing it. If it has to be there. Wildermuth : I agree with Tim. It would be a shame with an existing creek to just put a culvert i.n and fill the whole area over . Olsen : But sometimes there ' s benefits to that . They' ll say that it ' s better than what' s there now. I can check that out. Wildermuth : It would seem that the creek, it meanders along that lot line — there back and forth. It seems like if it possibly could be redirected , that would be preferable to putting a culvert in . I realize that the applicant probably doesn' t have anything to do with it. That' s a City — plan . I agree with Brian . I think for the moment this issue should be tabled until we have a more complete package to look at with about half the conditions . Headla : You' re talking about a building construction much like MTS and Research? You' re talking of building construction much like MTS and Research just to the east of us in Eden Prairie? _ Planning Commission Meeting March 15 , 1989 - Page 15 Todd Kristoferson: That would be the double T wall panel? Headla: Pre-cast concrete walls . Todd Kristoferson : Maybe we should address that because it' s not entirely clear on the plan. The main portion of the building , the plant walls along the sides and the back, would be pre-cast flat panels very si.mi.li.ar to the McGlynn Bakery building that ' s going up out there. It won' t have the projected fins like the MTS building . Headla: You say it will have? Todd Kristoferson: It won' t. It will be very si.mi.liar to the McGlynn Bakery building . Headla : What color were you going to have the walls? The reason I 'm — asking is we' ve got one white castle now. You have a very nice location there and it would have a lot of view. Something stark white is going to stick out like a sore thumb. That' s why I ask that question. Todd Kristoferson : We ' re hesitant to go to a white building for that very reason. This is the material that would be on the office portion of the building . It ' s prefi.nished aluminum. Headla : Pretty consistent with what you have over there now? That color? Ellson: With the other buildings and stuff you ' re saying? Headla : Yes . In the industrial park. What about the concrete walls? Todd Kristoferson: That would be painted a similar color but a lighter tone . Headla : Okay, very good . Thank you. Your injection molding , is that your business? — Larry Welter : Yes. Injected and blow molding . Headla : And what are your machines , 15 by 25 feet? Larry Welter : Yes . Roughly. It varies from among the sizes . That ' s about average. Headla : And what do you do with the residue of these machines? The flashing . Larry Welter : We reprocess it. Headla: You ' ll continually reprocess that? Okay. Wildermuth : Pretty valuable stuff . Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 16 Headla : Okay, the reason I asked some of those questions . . .on the number of people you say you' re going to use and you use that to justify the _ number of parking spots . The closest I can come is 169, 000 facility that has 600 people in it. If I run a ratio of people per square feet, you' re probably over 3 times the amount of square feet per person which means , before I 'd ever say yes, I think you've got a good plan here on parking — spots, I 'd sure what to see some rationale why you only have 50 parking spots. On the numbers of just common industry, I think you' re way low on the number of parking spots . If you ' ve got rationale for it and you can — point it out, fine. I 'd like to look at those numbers but I think those numbers have to be available if you' re going to go that' s your parking spots. Larry Welter : A rough figure that I used for calculating is 10, 000 square feet machine. For instance, with all the machines you have 120,000 feet needed for warehouse space to support that production facility. You — figure like a gallon jug and it takes up a lot of space. Maybe it won' t have too much plastic in it. Headla : I 'd like to see some documents showing that space. Now that kind of fits in. I think you' re way, and I 'm no way an expert in your business but just from what I see in the industry, I think you' re short on parking _ lot. The size of parking lot then flows into Brian' s point about you' ve got runoff on the parking lot . We haven ' t put in skimmers . What are we dumping into our streams? You' re going to have oil on those parking lot . You' ve got . . .on these parking lots going into our lakes and streams and the bigger the parking lot, the more cars , the more it ' s going in which means we probably should have the skimmer . That ' s why I would like to see some rationale for that. On why you went so light on that. Then, I think it ' s obscene that the number of deviations that we have. I don' t think the Commission is here to judge on a process of how we get there or to judge on what' s in front of us. No way would I recommend approval of this. I think it should be tabled. No way would I recommend approval of the applicant should provide an amended landscaping which provides the following . That' s the stuff that ' s got to come to us before we can even approve it . I want to see what you ' re proposing . I don ' t want to leave it to just the staff. I see different things about the fire hydrants and then I 've got a drawing here that shows a possible location of a fire hydrant. I don ' t want to say yes, I 'm going to vote yes for that. I want _ to see it on that print and I want to see it documented and then we say yes, that' s what the fire department agrees to and then we can do it. Dead-end mains shall not exceed 600 feet in length. If it' s an issue, then it should have been resolved beforehand. If it isn' t an issue, then — it shouldn' t have been in here but it ' s here so I ' ve got to raise the question. Submittal of revised site plan incorporating the above conditions prior to consideration by the Council . I want to see all that stuff before it goes to the Council . Revised plan shall be submitted for approval that address the conditions and discussions contained in this staff report. I want to see that. I want to see the erosion control plan . I don ' t want to leave that to the staff and put all that on them. They' re our guidance and I want to give them as much strength as possible and I want you and them to work together and I think you have been but I want to see you work with each other and get it resolved so when it comes — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 17 — here, we' ve just got a couple of issues and maybe it' s disagreements that we talk about. But we can settle on that and bang , we know exactly what ' s going to go to the Council . It ' s in crisp form and the Council can look at it and they can make a very good judgment on it. Right now everything we ' re doing , we' re shoving it onto staff and then it certainly isn ' t crisp to the Council and I don' t think it' s fair to either one. Determination of waste water monitoring requirements . What I hear from you, that isn ' t — even an issue but it was put in here so I flagged it and after hearing you, but it was in here. Access must be maintained for City forces to monitor and maintain Well No . 4. That' s got to be resolved before it comes to the Planning Commission. Not tell the staff to work it our afterwards. Todd Kristoferson: We have agreed to that access . Headla: Most of this should have been resolved beforehand so my point, I ' ve got others but my point is , get that stuff resolved with the staff — before it comes in. I hadn' t even heard of your company until just a little while ago. Empak, now it ' s come up and I just saw a fellow you just hired today away from the company where I have my office. Not my • company. He was happier than heck. He was just grinning from ear to ear so it must be a pretty good company the way he spoke of it. What you' re doing , I think is good . I like to see your building. I like to see you in here but for the Planning Commission and the Council to make good judgments , I think we have to have those defined and documented . That ' s all . • Wildermuth : I 'd just like to say one thing . Basically I think we' re very pro business and we certainly want to welcome you to Chanhassen. The project looks like a beautiful project . Your project just kind of got caught in a little internal conflict here. We' re not basically critical of the project at all . Emmings: I am going to belabor the 27 conditions a little bit because it — seems to me that what we' re getting is, we' re getting planning staff conditions and then it sounds like you' re getting engineering staff conditions and you simply add those on. There' s no synthesis done so we wind up with conditions that treat , and I think on the fire hydrants , fire hydrant things appear on 3 separate ones and two of them seem to be very similiar to me . When you' ve got , there' s a condition here that says all driveways should be consistent with the City' s commercial/industrial standard details. I think somebody else has brought up other ones of that nature. What the heck else? It ' s like putting in a condition that says , you' ll obey the law. Unless it' s a problem, unless they' ve designed — something that doesn ' t meet the standard so we have to tell them they have to meet the standard , that should never be necessary it seems. Hanson: That' s why it' s mentioned in here though. Mao Emmings : Why? " Hanson : Engineering , when they went through, the reason they would have mentioned that is that they didn ' t find something that met that particular Planning Commission Meeting — March 15 , 1989 - Page 18 standard explicitedly. Emmings: But that' s not giving anybody any information to say that. Then it seems to me they should say that the plans do not meet the City' s commercial/industrial standard details and must be redrafted . Olsen: . . .a lot of that information. Emmings : But then why put it in this report? — Olsen: It' s to let them know. Emmings : That they have to comply with our standards? It isn ' t multiple — choice. They don' t have a choice about that. This almost suggests that they do . A lot of these , it looks to me like if somebody sat down and tried to do a little synthesis. You know say, here ' s all the points we've — got , let ' s group them together so that we cover topics in a group. It seems to me even going with respect to fire hydrants and watermains, these things need to be done. With respect to landscaping . He did it under _ landscaping. But pull together what engineering has to say with what you have to say but there ' s no way there should be this many. I think tabling it may be, for the people who spoke for tabling it, all of these things seem to be things to me that the staff can handle I guess and I don ' t want to punish the applicant by delaying them because we don ' t like the process or we don ' t like the way the staff is presenting this stuff or we'd like it presented in a different way. So until we can get this process — straighten out, maybe we' re going to have to put up with a little bit of this but I think we should work like crazy to try and get this done because it ' s been a topic ever since you ' ve come on the scene Steve. I think we nailed you the first meeting . Headla : Steve, I think you slid over the important point . We' re being asked to approve stuff that we don ' t have the defi.nition of what we' re — approving . Emmings : I think to some extent , most of those things, if they' re technical , if they' re where trees are going to be located and things like that, I 'm content to let the staff handle that between now and the Council myself. I don' t see, if they brought one plan or another with trees here or there , as long as the staff tells me they've got an adequate number of — trees under our ordinance and so forth. Wildermuth : We should be concerned with the concept , conceptual things — rather than technicalities. Emmings : I guess I don' t think it ' s worth delaying them 2 weeks so that I _ should decide they should move a tree. I 'm going to let the staff, and there may be more significant issues in here. Headla : I think you hit trivial with those things . I think those are. . . — Signage. I ' d like to know what they' ve got in mind for signage. I think that' s very important. Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 19 — Wildermuth : That should be part of the package. Headla: I don' t want to see that go to Council without seeing what , just a concept . I 'm not asking for detail . Emmings: You said you store things outside in tanks? Where are those on the plan? Larry Welter : They' re on the north side of the building and the east corner. Emmings : All those little round circles you see there? Okay. Wildermuth: What kind of a hardship is it going to work if we table this thing on the applicant? Todd Kristoferson: I guess I can add something there . We' re on a real — fast track schedule with the owner to get him in production in late July. He has these very expensive pieces of equipment that are due to arrive at the same time that we finish the building. Two weeks is very important at — this time to us . As far as the number of comments in here, we' ve tried from the time we got this report to address those with staff. Probably two-thirds of them I think could be eliminated either because they' re conditions that are already met or just things that state we need to conform to standard codes . Wildermuth : You said something a little while ago that you thought they — were all , they could all be negotiated. Do you plan to comply or do you plan to stand up to a couple of them? Todd Kristoferson: We plan to comply. I didn' t mean to think that were going to come in and change anything . Some of them are open ended . Hydrant locations. We realize that we need to have some hydrants but where they are , I guess we want to work that our with the fire department - so they' re satisfied because they' re the ones that have to sign off . Headla : What' s the lead time of your big presses? What ' s the lead time — if you go to order one? Larry Welter : That varies between 4 to 6 to 8 weeks . Headla: You can get them that quick? Wildermuth: Are these new or used pieces that you ' re moving? Larry Welter : New. Headla : One other question and Steve brought it up before. When you came in and talked to the Village, did you have a pretty clear , crisp understanding of what things you had to look at or did you have to go through ordinances and talk to our staff quite a bit? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 20 Todd Kristoferson: We talked to Steve and we got a handout that basically spelled out what they wanted to see. Headla : So you' re making progress with that package Steve? Hanson: What we gave them was sections of the Code. Right now we don' t — have what I would call a developers packet . Headla : Steve has been working on something there and I just wondered how — he' s progressing so when you come in he says , these are the things you've got to look at. But it' s pretty clear? Okay, thanks . Todd Kristoferson: Our intent is to conform with what the City Engineer ' s and Fire Department ' s want. We don' t have any, on many of these items, we don ' t have any disagreement at all . We just want to do the next thing to have to clarify. -- Emmings : It seems to me that ' s all the more reason that we don' t hang them up is that they' ve agreed to the ones that are here. Maybe, as a — compromise Dave, I don' t know of the forces that are in favor of tabling , maybe if there was signage and maybe some other particular issues you want to see back, maybe we could have those come back. Pass the plan on but say that we want to see, we want the signage to come through, or something — like that . Just to not hang them up. Since they've already agreed . I 'd just throw that out. Headla : This is going to go to the Council before we could see that information right? Emmings: Right but we would withhold approval on those issues or say those things have to come before us and should be withheld from the Council . Whatever . Our problem is with our staff, not with these applicants. Batzli : My point is with the proposed expansion and not with the staff in that I think I heard them say if they can ' t build their expansion, or if — the potential isn' t there to build the expansion, they might not build . So I would like to see more information before letting it go. Emmings : And on that , it seems to me that we simply say we' re not approving the expansion period . They can' t present a shadow of a plan and expect to get approval on it but I think if you change, what number was that? You already brought it up. — Batzli : Which one? The one about the drainage? Roof drainage? Emmings: No, it was 3. That would simply say that this approval was not to be construed as approval of the expansion noted on the plan and any additional phases or expansion of the site will require an additional site review. The other thing that concerned me is I want to add another — condition. Ellson : 28? 3 Planning Commission Meeting March 15 , 1989 - Page 21 — Emmings : Yes , 28 because I just don' t think there are enough. I was a little concerned. It says that the applicant has stated that roof top equipment will not be visible from the south . I don ' t know if there' s any other possible place the roof top equipment could be visible from. TH 5 gets up pretty high and all I would say, there ought to be a condition that says that if any roof top equipment is visible, it will be screened because we' ve been real , starting with Pat Swenson back when , she looked — at every plan and that was the thing, one of the things she really focused on . I think it was a good idea and that ' s one of those things I think we have to really be a watchdog on or we start losing our grip on it so I think there ought to be a condition that says that if it is visible, that it will be screened. Hanson : Steve, could I clarify that? Is the intent, if it ' s visible from a public right-of-way? Emmings: Yes . You can always crawl up on a ladder and see it . Sure. If — it' s visible from, I guess I 'm thinking primarily of TH 5. I don' t know if it ' s even possible that it could be visible from TH 5. Erhart: TH 5 is very high relative to the site. Emmings : So I guess if you said from a, I 'm not thinking of being visible from another building . I think that' s alright. Okay, I don ' t have anything else . Does anybody else have any other comments on this? Erhart: Yes. Right at the beginning here you quote your Section 20-1125 — that for office space , you have 3 parking spaces for each 1, 000 square feet. How many parking spaces does this have? It doesn' t appear that you apply that to this structure. Hanson : It ' s just for the office. 7 , 000 is based on the employees that they have. — Erhart : I have another question here . All the Austrian Pines in front of the future building are going to be put in place at the time of the construction of the building? Todd Kristoferson: First phase? Right . Conrad : No , just as the first . Todd Kristoferson : No, I 'm assuming that these trees are also going to be put in now or in the future. Conrad : Phase 2, are you putting in the trees in front of your Phase 2? Todd Kristoferson: All the trees shown on this site plan will go in on Phase 1. Erhart : In the center , is this going to be graded back to the natural after you get all done? What are they going to be , just left to grow natural? Are you going to mow that? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 22 Todd Kristoferson: It will be seeded and mulched . Erhart: What does that mean mulched? Hanson : A strewed area . — Erhart: Oh, so we don ' t have erosion? Todd Kristoferson: Right . It helps the grass establish . Erhart: And that' s not intended to be mowed? Probably not. Will it be mowed or just left to grow long? — Todd Kristoferson : I would think that the plan is to mow that. Erhart: Are you intending to mow the whole thing or just let it grow wild? Larry Welter : It would be kept mowed . Erhart: It would be mowed, okay. So essentially you' ll have just a big flat area out there except that these parking lots will be put in now and — the dotted ones are for the future? This area is essentially what, your docks? Larry Welter : At the time that there Phase 2 is built, that trucking and dockage will be screened from the street. Erhart : Okay. There ' s landscaping requirements of trees every 40 feet on the interior lot lines correct and that' s not in here so there will be some trees along the east line . Okay, thanks . Conrad: Most of the stuff I think administratively can be handled if staff agrees that it can be. Although they opened it up to us which I 'm sure they' re sorry for doing. My biggest concern that impacts this that — basically tells me we may not be giving City Council the final plan is the drainage. If there' s a pond, where does it go? How does it affect the phases and I think that could really screw this up. That ' s the only thing that I see on this site plan that I really care about that the applicant should know that we ' re not going to bend rules downstream to make sure we get the additional area in for phase 2. We' re also quite concerned that , and typically we handle storm water drainage, or any kind of drainage on site, or we have been with ponding . I don ' t know what the difference is right now because we haven ' t been informed of what kind of storm water drainage we have and what the impact is downstream on that and where it ' s — going . So in my mind , that ' s the only thing I care about . That ' s the only thing that really impacts this site plan and it' s a thing that, I think all the other stuff is administrative matters pretty much. I don ' t even care about signage because I think our sign ordinance is pretty — specific on what it can be but I think in terms of this , I think number 19 is a headache for me and I don' t know how we want to handle that. What ' s your guesstimate? What do you think? Are we going to find a problem? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 23 - That ' s a big roof and if we go to Phase 2, that' s another big roof and we are reaching 70% impervious surface there and where' s it going? I think that ' s a problem. Now City Council can deal with that . They certainly are going to get our notes but we haven ' t helped them and basically what it says is between now, if we don' t act on this , the next meeting we have is 3 weeks from now so with the developer ' s schedule, we really are impacting them if we delay. So the question is , do we want to make City Council be Planning Commission for a little bit. Headla : Will they have all the information ready for us in 2 weeks i.f we have a special meeting? They' ve got to get the information anyway so since they' ve got to get it anyway, I want to see it before it goes to Council . I want to see a crisp plan go to the Council . Todd Kristoferson : I would like to comment on the drainage because that ' s something we' ve been discussing with the Watershed District engineers and we ' re fully aware that even i.f we get approval here and at the Council , - that we have to also get their approval . They are looking at the drainage and they will be the ones that will be needed for approval of drainage and erosion control with them. I don' t have the exact date. I know it' s - between now and mid-April . We are aware that we have to meet the drainage requirements for the drainage. I 'd rather not get held up here because we haven ' t gone to the Watershed yet . I would rather see this approved subject to subsequent Watershed District approval . Conrad : Normally we have those in hand when things come in don ' t we? — Olsen: We usually have comments from the Watershed District. Conrad : So we' re sort of out of sync . Usually we like to see their comments first and you' re telling us we' re not going to see them for another 3 weeks or 4 . Olsen : We usually see their comments before the final approval . They — only meet once a month, the first Wednesday. Emmings : Any more comments? Larry Welter : I would assume on that , that would be pretty much black and white decision for the Watershed . You' ve got your square foot of the roof there. You know what their storm sewer size and the proposed storm sewer — is . Emmings : I think what you' re hearing though is , they make their decision — but we make our decision too. I guess we usually take their comments into account when we' re looking at a plan before we make our decision. It isn ' t a situation where we just let them decide. Anything else. Is there a motion? Wildermuth: I just have one question addressed to Steve and Jo Ann. Do you have ordinances against employee parking on for example Lake Drive? — I 'm sure they can ' t park on CR 17 if there aren ' t enough parking places . Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 24 Olsen : I 'm sure they can ' t park on CR 17 but no we don ' t . Hanson: There ' s no restriction on Lake Drive. Olsen : We have that problem with Instant Webb, where they park on the street. Park Road. We have no way to prevent that unless we put no — parking signs up there . We do try to work with the companies and ask them to ask their employees not to park there. There is no specific ordinance against it. — Wildermuth: How many people are you going to have on the second shift? Larry Welter : Roughly a dozen people to start out with. During the day — i.t would probably get into. . . Wildermuth: Even in Phase 1? — Larry Welter : That would be Phase 2. Wildermuth : What I 'm thinking about is , if you have 100 employees on the first shift , you have 108 parking spaces . When the second shift comes , they aren ' t going to have anyplace to park. It just seems like you' re a little light on the parking for Phase 1. — Larry Welter : What we' ve tried to show on this with the dashed lines is that we have room to add additional parking if it were to become necessary — even with Phase 1. But we ' d like not to . We'd like to leave as much green area out there as we can as long as there' s going to be parking for employees and if it becomes a problem, we ' ve got room to add spaces . Conrad: How many people could meet next week for a special meeting? Headla : If they have it ready, I ' ll be here. — Conrad: I could show up. Batzli : Aren ' t we already having a special meeting this month? Hanson: That' s one thing I wanted to talk to you about tonight, about setting up a special meeting on the Comp Plan . — Conrad : When would that be? Hanson : When I can get the majority of you together . Emmings : I don' t have my calendar here. Conrad : We could possibly do it together . Ellson: Are we making the assumption they' ll get this Watershed thing all — put together? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 25 .- Conrad : Oh yes . They can try. Or staff can review it and that 'd make me comfortable. Olsen : You want a report? Conrad: Yes . - Olsen : In a week? Conrad: Yes . Ellson : You'd need more information and then you 'd have to write a report, right? - Emmings : Let ' s do this . Let ' s make a motion . Wildermuth: Let ' s ask the Mayor if he' ll accept it like it is. Emmings : Let' s make a motion. Headla : Let me ask the question first . When did the first application come in from Empak? Hanson : It would have been 3 weeks ago. Headla : 3 weeks ago and they want approval of this but their machines are 16 weeks lead time. I ' ve got a bunch of them on order and you ' ve got to — put them someplace. Todd Kristoferson : I can add something to this. Mr . Bongaard , the owner of Empak, came in to talk to I believe the City Manager several months ago about this project. At that time we initiated the design. So even though the application only came in 3 weeks ago for this meeting, I guess we ' ve been in this process for some time looking at this site. Batzli : I move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the Site Plan Request #89-1 as shown on the Site Plan stamped "Received — February 21 , 1989" with the following conditions : 1 through 27 set forth in the staff report and an additional condition 28 . The applicant shall provide screening for roof top equipment if the same is visible from a public right-of-way. A sentence prior to condition 3 which reads, approval of the site plan is not an approval , nor does it imply approval , of any notations of plant expansion set forth in the site plan. End of condition 19 another sentence which reads, further skimmer and/or traps — shall be provided subject to staff approval for all roof and parking lot drainage. Condition 25, the end of the sentence insert, and until such time as Lake Drive improvements are completed . The end of condition 26 insert, improvement project associated with Lake Drive. Ellson : I ' ll second it. — Erhart : Do we want to add something in referencing this 19 to strengthen the, encouraging staff to strengthen. . . • Planning Commission Meeting — March 15 , 1989 - Page 26 Batzli : The creek issue? Erhart : No , the use of the skimmer or the pollution thing from the storm water run off and the roof and the parking lot? It seems in the past that we' ve gone beyond the Watershed District' s approval and asked for certain — things if we felt there was . . . Batzli : I added a sentence there that read skimmers and/or traps shall be — provided subject to staff approval for all roof and parking lot drainage. Erhart : You added that to what , 19 or another one? Batzli : 19 . Erhart : Okay. I had that note here. I guess I was so busy trying to — read my notes that I didn ' t hear you. Okay, good . Conrad : Going back to drainage and erosion control and all those nifty — things . In one week, would we find out anything? Hanson : If you were to meet next Wednesday? Conrad: Yes. If we met next Wednesday, I 'm sure we could clean up some of this stuff and send to City Council . If we approve it with 28 points, it will go to City Council with all 28 points . — Hanson : Unless you make it a provision that those are complied with before it goes. Conrad : If they are complied with , do you eliminate them? Hanson: Yes . Conrad : What issue are we really dealing with in terms of the roof top drainage? Do you feel we have valid concerns? Is it something that staff — wants to look into? I assume you ' re waiting for referral agency comments back but are there things that we haven' t studied in terms of . . . Olsen : Usually, once it goes into the storm sewer , it ' s usually taken — care of. The only time I can remember that we ever added anything additional was with Rosemount, and maybe I missed something again when I was gone. It ' s usually takes care of it adequately. If you want us to — research exactly what ' s happening to it , we can do that . If you feel this is a sensitive area, which it could be. Conrad : I don ' t know what the Wateshed ' s going to say because of the impact on the improvements that they' re making . Olsen : It ' s the City that requires that they maintain pre-development — runoff on their site. The Watershed District does not require that so actually our engineering department requires more than the Watershed District does. _ Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 27 Conrad : Tell me about our policy, and we really do have a lot of retention ponds on sites, how come right now we feel that it' s real easy not to have a retention pond here? Is that just simply because we have a storm sewer that we can drain? Hanson : I think that ' s part of it , yes . In some cases you don' t have that capability. I think the other thing the engineering department is trying to raise in 19 is that they were unclear where the drainage from the roof was going . Olsen : And they didn' t have the storm water calculations . Hanson: So what they were saying is we need some more information and — based on that information , then it may become an issue. Conrad: So can we feel confident that because there' s a storm sewer that — will empty into a pond downstream someplace, that the adequate controls on that pond, skimming or filtering the pollutants before it gets into any of the wetlands, is that what we are assuming has been done? Just the fact that we' re dumping it someplace and we know whatever that place is has been approved to control water like this . Hanson: My assumption is , with the design of the storm water drainage, that improvements that the City has done and then putting it into that holding pond, that they' ve addressed that. And it ' s been addressed based on the roadway and projected development that would occur within the drainage basin that it' s serving. Now I did not specifically ask that question of engineering so I couldn ' t tell you that . . . Emmings: When are the storm sewer improvements scheduled to be completed? Hanson : It ' s all part of the . . . — Emmings : That ' s all part of building Lake Drive? Hanson : Yes . Batzli moved , Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Site Plan Request #89-1 as shown on the Site Plan stamped — "Received February 21, 1989" with the following conditions : 1. All signage shall meet the conditions of the sign ordinance. OEM 2. The applicant shall provide an amended landscape plan which provides the following : a . Two foot continuous screening of the southerly parking lot from Lake Drive. -' b. Fifty percent winter opacity. Planning Commission Meeting March 15 , 1989 - Page 23 c. Interior lot line landscaping. 3 . Approval of the site plan is not an approval , nor does it imply — approval , of any notations of plant expansion set forth in the site plan . Any additional phases or expansion of the site will require a site plan review. — 4 . Every dead-end roadway more than 300 feet in length shall be provided at the closed end with a turn around acceptable to the Fire — Department . 5. Turns i.n roadways shall maintain the minimum road width and shall be constructed with a minimum radium of 25 feet at the inside curb cut — and a radius of 50 feet at the outside curb. 6. Parking lot lanes shall have a minimum of 25 feet clear width between — rows of parked vehicles for vehicular access and movement . 7. Distances between installed fire hydrants shall not exceed 300 feet. 8. Approximate fire hydrant locations are indicated on the site plan . 9. Fire hydrants shall be supplied by not less than a 6 inch diameter_ — main installed on a looped system, or not less than an 8 inch diameter main if the system is not looped or the fire hydrant is installed on a dead-end main exceeding 300 feet in length . — 10. Dead-end mains shall not exceed 600 feet in length for main sizes under 10 inches in diameter . 11. Submittal of revised site plan incorporating the above conditions prior to consideration by City Council . In order to be placed on the April 10, 1989 City Council agenda , revised plans need to be submitted by March 27, 1989 . 12. Revised plans shall be submitted for approval that address the — conditions and discussion contained in this staff report . 13 . An erosion control plan shall be included in the submittals. 14. Contouring of the perimeter of the site will need to be shown. 15. All side slopes greater than 3 : 1 will need erosion protection. — 16. Determination of waste water monitoring requirements with the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission. 17. Watermain looping and hydrant locations shall be included i.n the submittals, including valves. 18 . Information on roof drainage discharge and possible need for retention pond for wetland pollutant/nutrient loading impacts . Further skimmer and/or traps shall be provided subject to staff approval for all roof _ Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 29 and parking lot drainage. 19. All driveways are to be consistent with the City' s commercial/ industrial standard details . 20. A typical section of roadway to be shown on plans for approval with concrete curb and gutter throughout the site. 21 . Necessary County permits for control of access to CSAH 17 at the northerly access to the site shall be obtained . 22 . A 35 foot permanent utility easement shall be dedicated along the easterly lot line of the site for storm sewer purposes . — 23 . The plans should address the proper movement of pedestrian traffic around the building and site. — 24 . Access MUST be maintained for City forces to monitor and maintain Well No. 4 at all times during construction and development of this site and until such time as Lake Drive improvements are completed . 25. Construction traffic shall not conflict with the City' s improvement project associated with Lake Drive. - 26. If the City' s 18 inch watermai_n is not relocated, an easement shall be provided across the southwest corner of the site and any cut or fill over this main shall receive prior City approval which will be predicated on proper remedial actions taken . 27. The applicant shall provide screening for roof top equipment if the same is visible from a public right-of-way. All voted in favor except Headla and Wildermuth who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 2. Headla : I think two reasons . Inadequate information available. I don ' t know what I 'm approving and I don ' t see anything in documentation of the parking lot and drainage to make a judgment . Emmings : Same thing? Wildermuth: Yes . — Emmings: I guess just as my closing comment I 'd say, I think this thing probably should have been tabled in terms of what we should do in terms of supplying information to the City Council . I think it ' s kind of half baked and it results in our doing kind of a half baked job but I don ' t think the applicant should be held up for that reason. I think this stuff is going to get ironed out between now and the City Council meeting . Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 30 CONTRACTORS YARDS . Emmings : I have a little preliminary question there . We have something new in our packets in the form of a little folder. Does that signify that we should keep these for a while? Hanson : Yes . The intent is a couple of things. On some of this stuff , especially the ordinance stuff and when we talk about procedures and so forth, I expect we' re going to go through a few generations on that and — what I 'd like to do is not copy Minutes from the last 7 meetings when we get to the point where we' re about to approve something so what I 'd like to do is give you stuff that we anticipate that you need to hang onto for a while . — Emmings : Then I would also assume that from the time we get one of these, that will appear on every agenda after that as old business. — Hanson : We can do that , yes . Emmings : I think we' ve talked about that several times and I think it' s a good idea so that we have a handy checklist of the stuff that we' re considering on an ongoing basis . Contractors yards , what have you got for us? Hanson : Basically what I 'm really asking of the Planning Commission is kind of a last check off to authorize us to go ahead and have the formal — amendment , if you will , put together and drafted so that we can schedule it for a public hearing . What I 'd like to do is publish that so you have what we' re itending to, at least consider for the adoption before you . What the staff is suggesting is that we go ahead and delete contractors yards as a conditional use in the A-2 district . I guess there ' s one thing I didn ' t mention in there and I should have and that was the BF district . Whether we' re going to delete it from that district . I was going to — delete it from the BF district also . Then under the conditional use provisions , we could delete entirely the section on contractors yards. I guess it ' s a question of whether you want to deal with the BF district or — now or if you want to leave it there or if the intent is really just to delete it from the A-2 district . Right now the contractors yards are allowed in the A-2, the BF and the IOP. Emmings : I ' ve got a question. The last time we talked about this we kind of went around about whether we should say that we' re , in the published notice for the public hearing , whether we' re considering restricting the — intensity of the use or whether we' re actually going to abolish the things . Whether we' re going to present that as an alternative or whether we are going to just present one alternative. What are you proposing to do? Hanson : What I 'm suggesting is the alternative to delete it as what you' re considering. Not the option of the mom and pop. Continuation of — contractors yards as a mom and pop type operation. Headla: Did you say delete the mom and pop? — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 31 Hanson : Yes . Emmings : Now the Section 20-574 is conditional use in the A-2 and 20-255 is what? Hanson : That ' s the conditional use requirements for contractors yards in — an A-2 district. Emmings : Then you 'd add this section down there for BF also? Hanson: That' s what I 'm wondering. If you want to keep BF or not. The conditional use requirements for the contractors , one' s for the non-residential and then there' s ones for the residential and agricultural so the criteria is different in those two instances . If we leave the BF alone subject to the conditional use requirements that apply in the IOP district. Emmings : I 'm just trying to remember what was in the report that we got from Mark and it seems to me, I thought we had agreed that they were - appropriate in the IOP but that ' s all . So it seems to me the BF stuff ought to be down here. Who' s got comments on this? Headla : I have a hard time giving up the mom and pop type of thing . Emmings: I take it that we can still discuss that at the public hearing . The trouble is we' re not throwing it out in the public notice which i.s , — the notice for the hearing and I . . . Headla : That ' s my only concern. Wildermuth : I guess I 'm in favor of deleting it in the A-2. I think that ' s the approach I ' d like to see taken with the public hearing . - Emmings: What about the BF? Wildermuth : I think it could remain in the BF and IOP. Batzli : I was just trying to recall . . . Emmings : Are you going to . . . Batzli : Well , I should say I did and my problem was , I couldn ' t even add up the score of what the Council people were saying. I had 3 for ma and — pa . One for eliminate . Our Mayor saying that if you couldn ' t limit them, maybe eliminate them totally and then I don' t know what , so we kind of had 3 for ma and pa , 1 for eliminate and 1 of the ma and pa was kind of walking the fence and Councilperson Workman, I didn' t know what he wanted to do but I assume he wants to get rid of it in the BF from his comments as well . Which leaves I don' t know what. I didn' t really get clear guidance from reviewing that but I assume that since we only have 2 BF' s and they' re both along TH 212/169 there. I would like to see them eliminated from that because I don' t think that ' s appropriate places to Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 32 put them due to the increase in traffic , etc. and it ' s already a pot pourri of things that I don ' t think are appropriate there anyway so my _ bottom line is to eliminate them from A-2 and BF. Ellson: Are we just deciding here what to say in the public hearing? We ' re not making decisions are we? MEM Emmings : No. Ellson : Why are we going around like this? Emmings: In some ways I think it would be nice if we wait to make up our minds until after we have the public hearing . Batzli : But we' re trying to decide what to say to the public though. Ellson : But let them come anyway. Batzli : I spoke with you. I would like to give them an option. Invite — them in and hear their comments but if we' ve got to publish something , my recommendation to publish is, eliminate it from the A-2 and the BF. My mind is not made up in stone but if we ' ve got to publish something, that ' s what I ' d like to publish . — Hanson : Could I maybe clarify one thing for you Brian? Batzli : Go ahead . Hanson : You' ll jump on me if I 'm wrong but just as far as what City Council did when they looked at the issue because you did want to get some — input from them. Granted the Minutes don ' t , I don' t think the Minutes read what was said. Batzli : Hopefully they do . Hanson: Well , I think it ' s the words but my reading of what City Council said , there were 2 people that said, let' s eliminate contracting from the A-2 district. And there were 2 people who were supportive of keeping the mom and pop operation. Batzli : Johnson and Di.mler? Hanson : No . One of those was the Mayor . And the Mayor ' s point was, if — there was a means where we could do it on a temporary basis, he would like to retain the mom and pop but if we can ' t , then his tendency was to say well , then maybe we should lean towards eliminating them. My _ understanding , and I don ' t recall who was on what side of the issue. I would say then that the other person, I believe it was Ursula , was less clear about what she wanted although she talked about the City ought to be looking at what ' s going to happen in those outlying areas. And that would — tend to tell you whether you should allow that kind of a use out there if it's going to conflict with what you' re going to do long range so she was looking , I think , for a longer term solution on whether contracting yards — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 33 belonged out there or not may depend on what the City envisions happening . That was my sense of what was said. I took that in my mind to be a direction of Council that really their direction was , let' s eliminate it from the A-2. The question on the temporary use and Steve had brought this up at Planning Commission previously about whether we could do licensing. You have a memo in your packet from Roger on that and essentially what Roger said is yes. They probably could do something under licensing but the red flags in my opinion in his recommendation are not quite as bright as they needed to be. I ' ve talked with him and he said, he feels that legally you could probably do it but that enforcement of it is really going to be a headache. His concern is once you ' ve allowed the business in and you want to get it out, it ' s going to be real hard to do . He did mention to me that he' s been involved in a case like that where they had a business. It was supposed to be in for a temporary time period and they had to get them out . He said the amount of legal fees and time that it took to get them out , he said it probably wasn ' t worth it . If I remember right , what he told me on the phone was they - spent close to $50, 000. 00 to get the business out . Even though it was to be a temporary use. I think that ' s his fear with it and that ' s why he said in there, if you' re going to proceed that way, he'd like to see us proceed fairly cautiously. Mayor Chmiel : Has that bill been introduced to allow a temporary use? Hanson: I don ' t know if it has been introduced or not. I know that there is a bill proposed to change the conditional use to allow temporary. — Mayor Chmiel : For x number of years . Hanson : Yes . And there ' s also a bill on the conditional use process to make it clear that a conditional use permit can not be denied. The City can ' t say no to a conditional use permit . They can only put conditions on it. So there is some legislation pending that could change the issue. — Ellson : It doesn' t really bother me which way the public notice says it . I think we would get the same people either way we notify them. Olsen : I think the only thing is , I remember Roger stating this before that the public hearing states something that if you were to approve is something more restrictive . — Ellson : Then maybe you should ellude to the fact that it may end up being total elimination. Then I guess you should write it as strict as it could possibly turn out . That ' s what you should do it . Conrad : I agree. The only question is, should we instruct staff to prepare a procedure where we would allow ma and pa? Do we want them to review that with us during that public hearing formally? Procedures and the pitfalls of doing that . Ellson: Yes . Emmings : I do . Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 34 Ellson: The pros and cons . Emmings : Do you? Conrad: Yes . — Emmings : Dave does I guess . What about you Brian? Batzli : Yes, I 'd like to see that . Emmings : Jim too? Wildermuth: Yes . Hanson : I 'm sorry, I missed that . — Erhart : Be prepared to discuss the pros and cons of the ma and pa if the discussion goes in that direction. I guess if we get a lot of people that — come up and say. . . Ellson : We already have some council members that were thinking they liked the idea of mom and pop. We should really know the pros and cons to it because it ' s already being thought of seriously. Emmings : Think about the kind of place that would be, somebody who' s — lived here for 35 years and they' ve got 1 truck and 1 Bobcat and they run this place right out of their home and they' re sitting on 40 acres. That isn ' t the kind of thing we ' re going after in prohibiting these things . The question is whether or not you can reasonably write any kind of — standards . Batzli : And then enforce them. — Emmings : And then enforce them, yes . So I guess that ' s the problem. Wildermuth: The other side of the coin is , maybe we' ve got to look at some zoning too . Emmings : I don ' t know what you mean though. — Erhart: I think Jim, my point is, you' ve got a lot of this A-2 out there really is residential today and when you ' ve got a downtown area where — we' ve got some pretty restrictive uses of in town lots in terms of overnight parking and what you can have in your front yard and what you can store in your back yard. We as Chanhassen, we have those rules yet now you' ve got essentially a residential area out there that a guy can have his Bobcat and his dump truck right next door so if we do it at large , I think that ' s the easiest way for the City and other cities have filled precedent that they' ve eliminated contractor ' s yards when they get to our stage of growth . On the other hand , if we' re going to allow some ma and pa , then I think we' ve got to do what Jim' s referring to and that is , I think we need to look at the A-2 area and find out which is — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 35 residential and which is rural . I 'm okay with either approach . Headla : Where are you going to draw the line on this? Wildermuth : If we say we want some contractors yards like the ma and pa operation, then I think we've got to look at some zoning allowing them on critical highways . Headla : Are you getting to a point that if you own a Bobcat , you' re in violation of some ordinance? Emmings : No , that ' s not the objective. That ' s not going to be a contractors yard. That' s not going to fit under the definition of a contractors yard . Erhart : If you have a business with that Bobcat. If your business uses that Bobcat, then that falls under the definition of contractors yard . Headla : I don ' t know of a single Bobcat that ' s used that isn ' t used for a business of making money. Erhart : You' re probably right . Your initial question was what then? Headla: If I owned a Bobcat, I 'd be in violation of some ordinance here? Erhart : You' re saying then that you own that Bobcat and you operate a business with that Bobcat? Headla : Yes , that ' s what you' re implying . I wouldn' t own a Bobcat if I didn' t expect to make some money on it. Erhart : But then if you owned a lot, do you want your neighbor to operate a business with that Bobcat where he' s loading it up, unloading it? The question is , the real basic question here is , is that kind of business appropriate for an urban neighborhood? Headla : That isn' t my question at all . My question is how definitive are — you going to get? What if I ' ve got a tractor with a bucket on it? You ' re going to get down in a gray area there that you could hit a lot of people so I think we' ve got to be prepared for that. Erhart : I think the definition is , does he use that for his main source of income. I think that ' s the definition. Emmings : It isn' t the definition but maybe we want to look at that too . We may want to look at all this stuff. We' re getting beyond what we' ve got to do tonight . Are we? What I 'd like to do, I guess you have an _ idea of what we want for the public hearing and I guess we ' re saying go ahead and do i_t. Is that what we ' re saying? Erhart: Both districts right? For the public hearing . Ellson : Right . As strict as it might possibly be. Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 36 Erhart: And then we can back off from there? Ellson : Right . Wildermuth : Let' s say eliminating it altogether from everything . — Erhart : Well we' ve got to have it in the IOP. Emmi.ngs : What he' s saying is if you want to make it most restrictive, just say we' re going to consider eliminating them. Erhart: I don ' t think we want to eliminate them from the IOP. Wildermuth: If you just have it in the IOP, it' s tantamont to eliminating it pretty well . Except for the one little IOP that we' ve got down here. — Erhart : IOP is the industrial park. Wildermuth : I know but who can afford to put a contractors yard in the industrial park. Hanson : You have one that you' ve approved in the A-2 district that ' s — looking at locating in the Industrial Park. Erhart : I think when all the other cities have outlawed them, essentially they have to go to the IOP' s . I think it' s a good business and I think we do want them in Chanhassen and I just think the IOP is a good place for the . I think we ought to at least put our sign out someplace for these businesses. I guess I assumed all along that we were talking about allowing them in the IOP' s . Ellson : Jim was just saying , if you' re going to go the most severe possible in the public notice, do it that way. Erhart : That ' s almost like saying , we want to chase you guys out of town completely. I 'm uncomfortable with that. It doesn ' t leave us the argument that . . . Wildermuth : If they' ve got a permit , we can ' t do that anyway. They' re in because the permit goes with the property. Erhart : I understand that. I 'm just saying that if somebody comes into our town with a contractor ' s business, what this is saying is we don' t want you. Do you want to leave that answer with them? Emmings: Do you need any kind of a motion or anything or you ' ve just got the idea? Hanson: Yes . — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 37 - CONVENIENCE STORES . Hanson : As you may have heard me mention to you, the City Council on December 19th put a moratorium on convenience stores within the City. It really resolved around two issues . The two issues were, first of all the proliferation of convenience stores and there was a concern for that . Then the second part of it was the issue of service stations allowing full service and having service bays . The one concern, it really centered around the Amoco project coming in and losing those service bays and having it replaced with essentially a convenience gas facility. At that ▪ time one of the real concerns and issues was how do you define what a convenience store is. In all honesty in my mind, that ' s still a cloudy issue. It' s a situation where I think you talk to the normal person on the street and you say a convenience store, gas pumps, they think of Tom ▪ Thumb or a Holiday or 7 Eleven. You have an image of what it is and typically those facilities are around 3, 000 square feet. The problem is trying to put a definition on that . If you say 3 , 000, then does that mean — if it' s 2, 900, it' s not a convenience store, it ' s a gas station? Or at what point , is there an upper limit on it? Is there an amount of the square footage inside that' s important? In the memo that you have before - you, it' s by no means intended to be a definitive answer on what a convenience store is but what I wanted to do at this time i.s give you some background information. The first part of that i.s a list of where convenience stores with and without gas pumps are allowed. Be it as a ▪ permitted use or as a conditional use . Also, where auto service stations are allowed . One definition that is not included in the present Code is what I would call , for lack of a better term, a gas station or a self service gas station where you don' t have the convenience. It ' s not a convenience store but it ' s not a full service gas station either . I don ' t know, to my knowledge, we don' t have one of those i.n the City per se unless you were to classify the one down on TH 212 and TH 169 , the Super America down there and I 'm just not real familiar with that facility but I think it ' s more than just the gas station. It doesn' t fall within that kind of a definition. The other thing I ' ve included in the information i.s — the conditional use requirements for those facilities . The intent statements for the various zoning districts within the town. I 've given you a brief definition , a shot at a definition for a convenience store. And what I 've said i.n there, probably the critical part is that if it has over 400 square feet of floor area for retailing of non-automotive goods. Then also some proposed additions to the conditional use provisions. The first of those stating that it must be attached to an integrated shopping center so that it' s not a free standing facility. Secondly, that there' s no outdoor storage and display which I think typically has been a condition that ' s been placed on the conditional use for convenience stores that have gone through. In looking at that from that standpoint and I ' ve taken just a rough shot at where those uses would be allowed . In reviewing the Code right now. . . the right way to look at neighborhood business, there's a couple ways to look at the convenience side. Whether it ' s a convenience to the residents in a neighborhood or whether it' s a convenience to the people commuting to work. If the intent is to be a convenience for the residents in a particular neighborhood , then my logic would say, then you allow the business center in a neighborhood business district. But if the convenience store is really convenient for the Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 38 traveling public , then it really belongs in the highway business district . Whether you want to make that distinction or not, that' s kind of a flip of _ the coin . I don ' t think from a land use standpoint or a planning standpoint, I don' t see that there' s a real issue that you can put your finger on and say that it makes more sense than one or the other . In the proposal that I ' ve put down there, what I 've suggested is that a — convenience store without gas pumps would be a permitted use in the neighborhood business , the CBD area and the general business and the general business i.s intended to allow virtually any retail use. That it — would not be allowed in the highway business or in the business fringe. Now if it ' s a convenience store with gas pumps , then it would be a conditional use in the neighborhood business, the highway business and the general business as a permitted use and not allowed in the CBD and BF — district. Now I 'm aware that the Brooke Center i.s in the CBD and it has convenience and it has gas pumps . When I read the intent of what the CBD is, personally I think that ' s a mistake. I don' t think that ' s the — appropriate location for a convenience store with gas pumps is not in the CBD. I don' t think that ' s the kind of activity you ' re trying to encourage down there. It belongs more on the fringe of that area . It belongs _ either out on the general business or in the highway business . I guess I tend to look at the convenience stores and the gas stores, the logical place for a lot of those is on the major intersections where you have the traffic . It' s a question of accessibility and getting on there and getting off and getting back on your way. So I guess the bottom line of this long discussion is that I don ' t have a clear answer for how the convenience stores ought to be dealt with . I think a lot of it is how you — perceive the problem. I think some people' s perception is that the convenience stores are taking away from what everyone would like to see as far as a full service grocery, larger grocery. I have a hard time with that argument because I don ' t think the convenience store is taking business away from that. I personally don ' t think the market ' s here yet to support that grocery store. I think those facilities are being provided by our neighbors and until we get a little more population and — market that can support that, that type of facility isn ' t going to happen . When it does happen, I don' t see that the convenience stores will take away from it . I think just the opposite is probably going to happen. The _ grocery store will take some of those convenience shoppers from the existing convenience stores . When you go and you buy the gas and you go in and buy a candy bar or the Coke or whatever , it ' s not going to take that, I think some of the normal grocery items that I would expect at some — of those convenience stores would lose some of those. Another suggestion was that there be a minimum separation between convenience stores . A mile or half mile or whatever figure you want to have. I guess if the concern — i.s that there ' s such a proliferation of convenience stores then that' s a way to get them separated. On the other hand, I think the trend has been that they like to be next to each other . Not necessarily right next to _ each other but on the same intersection so they' re picking traffic. For example, if you' re on TH 5 and you' re westbound , it ' s a whole lot easier to go to the one that' s on the right hand side of the road rather than having to make two left turns . One in and then another left turn to get — back out on TH 5. So consequently it makes sense from that standpoint to have a convenience on both sides at a major arterial where you can get in and out fairly quickly. The existing stores , just for your information, I — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 39 - did a quick look at what sizes they are. The SuperAmerica , the new one that's up on TH 41 and TH 7 is roughly a 3, 300 square feet. The Holiday' s 3,900. It ' s the largest . The Total Q is 3,000. Brooke' s is about 3, 000. The proposed one in West Village is approximately 3, 200. The Amoco site, the one that' s being proposed there , that building is only 1, 000 square feet so there' s a dramatic difference in size between those. The thing that ' s interesting when you look at it , the signage that was proposed for Amoco, they called it a Food Store. But the retail area within that Amoco site is approximately 570 to 740 square feet . It depends on whether you include the coolers in that retail space. The coolers are, you open the — doors and access them but there ' s also storage in part of that . So they' re roughly 60% to 75% of that facility is retail space. Ellson : Both SuperAmerica ' s are 3, 300? Hanson: No. The one that was approved up on TH 41 and TH 7. But a lot of those are in the 3,000 square foot range. The last issue is the issue — of the auto service/full service stations. I guess one way to try to encourage that is to take one, have one of the zoning districts that allows that particular use and say, for example does not allow a convenience store with gas pumps . I don ' t know if that ' s something that you would want to do. I guess I have a hard time saying that the highway business is really intended for a full service gas station and it ' s not intended for a convenience store with gas station because really, when you — look at the intent is to service the highway users . Both of those are highway users. If you have an area that you felt was appropriate for automotive uses , that maybe there ' s some credence to that having a — district that' s intended to have automotive related areas . I think when you start to do that though, we' re not talking about that large of an area where the business districts are. I had mentioned I think in the report that there was an attachment . This is just a copy of the zoning areas and really the commercial districts we' re talking about are around the CBD area with the exception of the commercial zoning up on TH 41 and TH 7 where you have a SuperAmerica. There' s not a spot on that particular site for another one . You have the other SuperAmerica down in the BF district . Then in the memo I ' ve just kind of listed a bunch of other things that can be considered as far as restricting or trying to define the difference on — these. What I wanted to do at this time was just kind of go through this and get any comments that I can . What I 'd like for the next meeting is I 'm trying to get some information from the convenience store operators and owners as far as how they view what their business is . Hopefully I can get that so we can present that at the next meeting. Emmings : How about some samples of how other communities have dealt with the same issue? Like any information like that? Hanson : I ' ve talked to some. A lot of people haven ' t done anything . Emmings : Could we find some examples though where they have? Hanson : Yes , we can get some examples of that . Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 40 Olsen : I can ' t remember which city it is but I know they allow convenience stores with gas pumps but they also require them to require service stalls. I ' ve heard that' s one way to remedy. Emmings: And then they just let the service stalls sit there? Erhart : What was the fundamental for imposing this temporary moratorium? Emmings: Too many. Erhart : Simply what, too much competition concern? Hanson: No. I think there was a sense that there were too many '— convenient stores . Elison: It was a concern of mine I remember when that came through. — I just thought, a person will drive in and we don' t even have an established dry cleaners or anything like that and all these convenience stores are here before a true downtown area is anywhere and I know that was a concern of mine . Erhart : You have too many because one ' s going to go broke? We have too many because it ' s cluttering the City or people are buying too much? — Emmings : It was my perception Tim that there were just so many over such a short time. Getting so many applications and so many of them springing — up but I don ' t know if that ' s right . Mayor Chmiel : That basically is right what you ' re saying . I think the other intent was the fact that you ' re losing a full service to be provided to the citizens . Emmings : And the full service one you' re losing is Amoco. It ' s obvious that Amoco has made a decision to convert, I 've seen them converting one station after another from a full service type operation to the convenience store with gas pumps . It ' s like the gas station that we kind of all knew and grew up with is a thing of the past . It just doesn ' t exist anymore. Hanson : One of the comments that , when I talked with Amoco, and it wasn' t — during the meeting but outside of the meeting, one of their comments was it ' s becoming almost virtually impossible to try to be able to service the vehicles that are coming in now. What they' re saying is because of some of the high tech applications , that they just can ' t do, if somebody drives in and their car doesn' t work and they say well , they can' t deal with it. We can change a tire and those things . Ellson: Like towing services and things like that, I know that they were the ones that were assigned by whomever to tow all of TH 5 here just last night. What do we have as choices around here? Is it just saying that we — basically ousted the little guy that' s next to Kenny' s there. Now this is being gone. We ' re saying here we' re this great city. We' re growing. We' re going to provide you with what? Nothing for your car . You' ll have — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 41 - to go in town . I like her idea that we almost encourage the convenience store with the gas pump, please with the service bays if you could. We'd certainly help your bottom line if it ' s the convenience stores that' s going to get you that but I don ' t want to be a city that doesn ' t give everything you need . I don ' t want to have to drive into Bloomington to get my car serviced or whatever . - Emmi.ngs : But it seems like this is a market thing . If the market is here for some guy to open a repair shop and make a living at it, he' s going to do it but if he can ' t service most cars because he needs such high tech instruments and tools to do it is more and more of his work I 'm sure and with extended warranties on cars , I 'm sure more and more of the work is being done at the dealerships. You 've got a 6 year/60, 000 mile warranty. Conrad : Fewer problems literally in the business . They' re making cars that just don ' t have that many problems, even though we think they do. They' re forecasting that that business is being reduced a great deal . Emmings: But I don' t think it ' s going to matter whether we make it , if we made it a permitted use in every district in the City. If the can ' t make a living, it ' s not going to happen. I don' t know. Conrad : I think an interesting issue is , we' re sort of around it , why isn ' t anybody coming into town? What is Gary Brown doing? Does he see a — viable business opportunity here in town? I really can ' t believe, for a population that 's growing, I can' t believe somebody doesn ' t want to come into town. Whether it be Gary, and it' s just not Gary. There should be enough market here to support a couple service stations that can change, take care of the radiator_ and a few of those things . I guess the question in my mind is , why aren' t they moving in? What ' s wrong? Based on what Gary' s perception is and Don maybe you 've talked to him and maybe we have some of those answers but I think the City should be encouraging that kind of stuff coming in . I 'm not sure it ' s with what you had down here as I went down the list I put no by each one. I like the intent statement but — I 'm not sure I want to encourage it with those particular reasons but I think the City should aggressively go out and try to pursue whether that be through Brad or whatever . Bringing somebody, some groups into town. Mayor Chmiel : B.F. Goodrich is looking at it as well . Gary is looking at putting his own 4 to 6 bay service shop in adjacent but he can ' t put it on Amoco property. They won' t allow them. Amoco won' t allow the existing — dealers to continue with their kinds of service. They want to promote their Certicare which again is increasing his cost in operation of that particular facility. To rent the so called food shop or just with gas alone, I think his increase would more than double. They want $7, 000. 00 per month . They' re interested in must pumping gas . Elison: It will be a self serve too I ' ll bet you . Mayor Chmiel : Now you take into consideration too , for our residents within the community, handicapped people, they have to have, we have to have some kind of convenience for those people . Planning Commission Meeting — March 15 , 1989 - Page 42 Conrad : I think the promoting , somehow getting those interested parties in. I think we should be doing that. I think Steve what you' ve done _ makes some sense to me. There are a couple things that , I went back to objectives . What are we really trying to do here and one of my objectives is to encourage service stations . Full service stations into town. That ' s an objective and that was what I was reacting to when Gary was forced out over there. I wasn ' t reacting to convenience store as much as I was hey, there goes another and I don' t think we' re a good community if we don' t have service stations that can work on some of the minor things — that go wrong with the car . I think there are some other objectives that we may want to look into . Do we care about looking like a convenience center town? Does that have any kind of impact and when a grocery store comes in , it will impact their business so then are we stuck with a lot of operators that aren' t going to make a living? They' re going to make a living right now but when a grocery store comes in , does that have an impact so I think I personally would like to have staff tell me something — about that . I think the market will determine how many convenience stores can come in right now but we know something that we know that there' s a grocery store that might come in sooner or later and what impact will that have on a variety of convenience stores. I think another objective is to provide convenience stores where they' re necessary. I guess being really convenient . Wildermuth : Promote it through appropriate zoning . Conrad: Right. So if they are convenient stores, we should make sure — they are convenient . My mind even got to the point where should service stations be convenient to the neighborhood? That ' s sort of radical thinking for me because I 'm not trying to get these little neighborhood , I _ think you lose some control when you start putting your business neighborhood stuff around . But then again , what ' s wrong with having a gas station that can work on your car a couple blocks away from your house. I don ' t know that there' s a negative to that. I ' ve thought of some. They can be hang outs. There can be some negatives so therefore I question whether the auto service station or whatever , shouldn ' t be in the business neighborhood. Maybe it should. Maybe because my objective was to make it — convenient for the neighborhood . That ' s not that we have to put in, that' s a low intensity use I think so some of that makes sense. The other objective would be to protect the neighbors around that. Then my other objective would be to provide highway services for tourists and people — going through town which tells me, I don ' t care if they have convenience stores in the business and highway business district if Chanhassen wants to make some money on people dri ,iing through town. I don' t care if they — stop for gas and food at the same time. So those are my, and I went back to objectives . Encourage service stations into town. Keep us from looking like a convenience mecca because they may close down in the — future. Provide the convenience of these things where it' s necessary for the residents . Protect the residents and provide services for highway traffic which probably could be gas and food . That' s where I started. I don ' t know where that goes . — Batzli : Picture the strip in Eden Prairie right across from this shopping center , is that your idea of a convenience mecca? Starting at, what is — Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 43 - it , Hardee ' s going down to the gas station and Skippers and all that other stuff down there? That, in my mind, is the epitome of a convenience mecca , that strip right there . I think it looks tacky personally. Ellson: And that' s what our downtown is turning into. It' s very close all around here but you' re right . $5 . 00 will go a long way between multiple storage of something. Conrad : And that will be what our BG district looks like. For sure because that' s the less restrictive district that we' ve got downtown. Because we couldn' t bundle it into CBD so you' re BG district is the one that sort of says, all the strip stuff, anything that needs a stand alone unit ' s going to go down there and that' s what it ' s going to look like . - Ellson: Versus a downtown like Excelsior which is what I 'd rather . Erhart : . . .convenience store. Conrad : Which? Erhart : Over by that Eden Prairie Center . It ' s all fast food restaurants. Batzli : I know but in my mind , I guess we do . We have Midas so that ' s a — bay place. Erhart : The Q station in there is the only convenience store. Batzli : Is there only one? But to me it ' s a convenience mecca . Erhart : I agree, it ' s a mess but I don ' t know that what we' re talking about here is going to prevent that. We' re talking about it ' s a mess of fast food restaurants . A muffler store and a convenience store. Batzli : I think there's just an incredible mish mosh of convenience everything there now that I think about it . I was thinking there was like 3 of them in there. There ' s one right by the Midas shop and then I thought there was another one up by Hardee' s. Erhart: There' s a Standard station there. - Batzli : Okay, that ' s a Standard? Conrad: It ' s hard to prevent that. Ellson : I know. That ' s why I 'm saying , maybe we should actively be going out after what we want before the other stuff comes in. Conrad : I think a market will drive a lot of this stuff and I hate to get in the way of the market but I think sometimes we know more, we might know something that the market may not take into consideration and that' s in - grocery stores. That may impact a bunch of these. My real issue goes back to , let ' s make sure we have service stations in Chanhassen which is Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 44 really not protecting , really is not as keen on the convenience store issue as let' s make sure we get those service stations . I literally think we should have 2 of them in 6 months . Hanson: This isn' t going to shed any light on it but just food for thought . I do know that there' s another convenience store that ' s waiting in the wings . Emmings : What will be their location? _ Hanson: They' re tentatively talking about the Legion site. Emmings : That ' s 3 back to back then . — Hanson:. They' re literally on top of each other . Ellson : That ' s exactly what I think would be terrible. Emmings: Ladd, do you think that the separation notion for now will keep the number down? Conrad : But it ' s going against what Steve said . Convenience stores go on major intersections so they, by the nature of their marketing strategy, they have to be on those intersections . So if we say there' s a space, we are definitely not eliminating . . . Ellson : We' ve answered it already with one of the left at that corner and one on the right at the corner . Conrad : You won ' t have one on the left and right . You ' ll have one if we have a distance requirement. Ellson: I 'm talking about the ones that are grandfathered in right now are there. Those we' re not going to say, leave Holiday. Leave Amoco. Leave Total . As far as we' re trying to sell that sort of area . I don ' t want that to come in on that corner . I want a reason to say no and I 'd — like to run after what I 'd like to have in there. So a sell job to somebody else. Mayor Chmiel : Go by total numbers? Go by population as to what , or is — that . . . Hanson : That would be pretty tough to regulate. When they' re trying to — locate one, they' re doing that as far as assessing the market . Emmings : But that ' s try of the population of the City that may be insofar as the neighborhood is giving it business but then they' re looking at how much traffic goes by that corner and those people of course may be coming from anywhere I supposed so I don' t even know how you 'd figure it out. I guess what you' re saying though is that there should only be a certain — number of stores per , for every 1, 000 population there' s a quarter of a store or whatever . Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 45 - Conrad : The stations do that or any good marketer does that . They figure the population. They figure the traffic and they know if there ' s one gas station, they' ll pick up so much they know they can pick up half the business. So they do the same ratio that we' re talking about when they determine to put a unit in. Mayor Chmiel : By the same token, before putting up a station i.n - residential areas , that' s a long time where stations go into locations . They don ' t last very long . . . total gallons of gas should be pumping in accordance with Amoco or Holiday or whoever. So that sort of knocks those - out. When you go into a lot of the older areas where that works , the traffic flow and the station is no longer there. Conrad : That ' s what I started thinking about is the old fashion corner service station. Mayor Chmiel : There' s not enough to support them is the problem. Conrad : But if they put food and a service bay and a gas pump. Hanson : At least we haven' t seen the Amoco/Burger King station come in. I don' t know if you ' ve seen, there' s one of them. . . Ellson : It really is a tie in now? Hanson : Yes . The one that I 'm familiar with , the one i.n Denver that was close to where I lived. You drive in and you get your gas and while - you' re getting your gas you can order your burger from the thing and you drive up to the window and you pay for your gas and you pay for your burger and they hand you it. That' s a combination . It was either Amoco or Standard and Burger King. Ellson : I think something has to be done. I don' t know that we ' ve come up with an idea but, especially if there' s one waiting in the wings, I — don ' t want it. I want a way to tell it no . Conrad : What do you want to do on a special meeting? I have to go. Emmings: What do you want to propose on a special meeting? It wasn' t for next week though was it? — Hanson : We had I think contacted some of you. Some of you were out of town. We' re trying to set up a special meeting so we could get the Comp Plan cranked up . What Mark and I had talked about , what would be — ideal is if we could have a special meeting where we don ' t have anything else on the agenda because it' s been so long , so we could take a couple hours and really try to bring everybody up to speed on where we are and bring you up to speed on the revisions that have been made to date and things . Emmings : What date are you proposing? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 46 Hanson : We had tried to set it up for the 29th . We couldn ' t get a hold of some of you and some of you were going to be out of town that week . Emmings : Is that a Wednesday? Hanson : Yes . And if I remember right , I think Mark has a conflict . Emmings: Are you going to be out of town on the 29th? Conrad : I ' ll be gone next Thursday through the following Monday. I ' ll be gone for 10 days . Emmings : So we either do it next week or after that if Ladd ' s going to be — there. Erhart : Is transportation one of the items we ' re going to discuss? Is the official mapping going to be done April 10th for the TH 212 freeway. That ' s on the City Council agenda . Does that a significant impact on the Comp Plan discussions? It seems to me it would . Hanson : Yes . Erhart : Would it make sense to do this after that or can we assume what will happen? Hanson : There are several sections . _ Emming: We' re going to meet more than once. Hanson : Yes . We ' re looking at , I don ' t have the schedule that Mark and I have worked up but we had, I believe 3 or 4 meetings with the idea that we 'd get to May and we 'd have the draft of the plan so we could say at that time schedule public hearings. The one thing I did want to mention to you, we talked about our list . Our to do list . Our goals and that at City Council on Monday. At some point I want to go through those with you as far as what some of the priorities were . One comment that was made was maybe Planning Commission ought to look at taking half it ' s time and only allowing half the time for development requests and the other half to deal with the to do list and the Comp Plan so that we don' t get it continually pushed off because we don ' t have the time. Really we ought to maybe take some of the development requests and push them off . Maybe our priorities are skewed. I think that ' s something else that we need to talk about. Right now what I 'd like to try to do is if we can set some time when we — could get together and at least get the Comp Plan process going . Emmings : I ' ll make a suggestion . I can ' t give you any dates because I _ don' t have my calendar . I think it sounds like, can you be ready by, is next Wednesday something that we can do or is that too soon? Hanson: We can do it but Mark ' s not going to be able to be here. — Conrad : How about Tuesday? Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 47 Hanson: Tuesday would probably work. Emmings : Why don' t you call , why don' t we all call in and give you dates that are open because I think everybody should be there. As many as possible but it would be nice if everybody was there. These are important I think. So why don' t we all call in and give him our schedules . Maybe we ' ll even have to push it into April . Hanson: Yes. Even if for like the next 3 weeks or something. Dates that might work and maybe we' ll hit one. Sunday at 7: 00 in the morning . Emmings: What was the Tuesday that you could make? The 28th are you talking about? - Conrad : Next week. Tuesday and Wednesday of next week. Emmings: And that's it. It sounds like that ' s too soon so maybe we — should try for the week after our next regular meeting . That 'd be the second week in April . Does anybody know they have a conflict there for the week after our next regular meeting . On the 12th. Wildermuth: I won ' t be here on the 12th of April . Erhart : Either will I . Emmi.ng : Alright. Let' s all call in and give him our dates for the next 5 or 6 weeks and then we' ll just let him pick a date when most people are - available. Headla : Call in your available dates for the next 5 or 6 weeks? Emmings : No , for the next 5 or 6 Wednesdays . Ellson : What if it happened to be a Tuesday? Maybe just say when you — absolutely can not. If you find certain days left open without x ' s through them. Emmings: Let' s try for Wednesdays unless it ' s impossible. Are there any more comments on this convenience? Batzli : Did we decide on anything on the convenience stores? Emmings: We don' t have to. He's going to come back with more information next time. It was a discussion item. Keep your stuff. Erhart: I 'd like to hear what the Council . Even though I was there _ Monday night, I did have to leave at some point and I did miss the discussion Monday night on what the Council ' s reaction to our work schedule was . I 'd like to hear . — Hanson : I ' ll give you a synopsis . Initially I was just going to present the list and I thought well , I probably ought to give a shot at what I Planning Commission Meeting — March 15, 1989 - Page 48 thought the priorities were. What I had suggested to the City Council was the Comprehensive Plan was a priority in completing that update. Then I _ had listed under the Zoning Code amendments as a priority, contractor ' s yards. Completing that. Updating the zoning map. Convenience store moratorium. Talking about that. Then I dropped down to updating the development procedures. From my standpoint, that ' s what I said I felt that our priorities ought to be, or at least from my perspective. I think there was a general concurrence with that from Council that those were priorities but not necessarily that that was all of the priorities . There were listed, and there really wasn' t a concurrence I don' t think by the whole Council that these were all the priorities but a couple of the members listed a couple and those were the blending ordinance. The sign ordinance. Wetland violations . How to deal with those . How to deal with after the fact wetland permits? Just generally violations on how violations of the Code ought to be handled . Outdoor storage and front yard fencing . Those were two new issues from when we had met. Then computerizing the land use files . Trail involvement by the Planning Commission. Recycling oil . Eurasian Water Milfoil . Ellson: What was that one? Hanson : The water milfoil from Lake Minnetonka that ' s the latest and greatest weed to be infecting the area . Erhart : On the trails, what was the comment? Hanson: It was just a comment that the Planning Commission should be involved and participating . I mentioned in the memo that I gave them that yourself and Dave were both interested specifically. — Ellson : That weed thing , that weed problem, how would that come to us? Land use turn into a weed problem? Hanson : It was something that was mentioned . Really it ' s being handled by Public Safety. Ellson : It ' s just a priority of your department? Hanson: It ' s a priority of the City. Emmi.ngs : When you say it' s being handled , what does that mean? It ' s my understanding that as long as, if the public access is open, you ' re going to get it. — Hanson : It ' s being handled in the sense , what I meant by that is it' s been delegated to somebody to be responsible for and to put together _ essentially a study and a group or whatever is going to take place. Mayor Chmi.el : One suggestion was just close off all the accesses for one year? — Emmi.ngs : But then we just delay it for a year . Planning Commission Meeting March 15, 1989 - Page 49 Headla : What are we going to do, shoot all the ducks and geese flying over Minnewashta? Batzli moved , Wildermuth seconded to adjourn the meeting . All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10: 20 p.m. . Submitted by Steve Hanson Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim