08-1-90 Agenda and PacketFile
AGENDA
CHA}IHASSEN PTANNING COI{I{ISSION
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 1, 1990, 7:30 P.U.
CHANIIASSEN CITY HALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE
CALL TO ORDER
PUBLTC HEARTNGS
Planned Unit DeveLopment for the Developnent of a Library/
Annex/Research Center, expansion of the Education Center anda Retirenent Conplex on property zoned IO, office andInstitutional District and located north of West TBth Streetand east of Great P1ains Boulevard, St. Hubert Church.
ITEIi{ DELETED *
Zoning ordinance Amendnent to Amend Section 20-263 of theRecreational Beachlot Ordinance to AIIow for portable ChenicalToilets on Recreational Beachlots, Minnewashta Creek
Homeouners Association.
OLD BUSTNESS
1
*
2
3.
NEW BUSINESS
I
wetland Alteration Perroit to construct a walkway path througha Class A wetland to access a dock located at ZO1G Sandy HookCircle, Chris Engel for Lotus Lake Betternent Association.
*
4
ITEU DELETED *
Site PIan Review for a Retail MaII Building of 11,822 Equarefeet on property zoned CBD and Located on Lot 2, Blotk 1,BlooDberg Addition, Frontier Retail center, Bloonberg
Conpanies.
Site Plan Amendment for Expansion of the parking Area west toLotus carden Center on property zoned IOp and located at 18930West 78th Street, Redmond Products.
APPROVAL OF II{INUTES
CITY COT'NCIL UPDATE
ONGOTNG ITEI,IS
ADI.{INISTRATIVE APPROVAI,S
OPEN DISCUSSION
6 Southwesr lletro Transit conrnission presentation of fnterin andLong.Range Plans for Park and Ride lots for its Express RouteService to Downtoyn lr{inneapol is, Beverly MiIIer. -
ADJOURNMENT
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
PC DATE: 8/L/9O
cc DATE: 8/27/9o
cAsE #: 9o-1 PUDBy: Al-Jaff/v
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Concept Plan Approval for a Planned Unit
Developnent/Research Center, Expansion of an
Education Center and a Retireuent Complex
PROPOSAL:
for St. Hubert Church
IOCATION:
APPLICANT:
7707 creaE P1ains Boulevard
Lundahl ArchitectsAttn: ur. Richard Lundahl
5509 Eden Prairie Road
Minnetonka, MN 55345
PRESENT ZONING:
AqREAGE:
DENSITY:
AL'ACENT ZONING AND
I,AND USE:
WATER AND SEWER:
PEYSICAL CHAR,ACTER.:
2OOO I,AND USE PIAN:
fO, Office & Institutional
4.5835 acres
N - RSfr single fanilys - oI,
E - RSF, single fanily
I.' - CBD & R-12,
AvaiLable to the site
The site contains an existing church, 2houses, a playground and a garage. Therealso exists a number of mature oak treesacattered over the easterly portion of thesite.
Publ iclSeni-Publ ic
STAFF REPORT
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st. Hubert PUD
August 1, 1990
Page 2
BACKGROUND
St. Hubertrs Church has had a presence in the conmunity that dates
back to its early history. It has operated as a church and schoolpre-dating todayrs ordinances and requirements.
On Novenber 3, L975, the City CounciL approved a conditional usepernit for the parish of st. Hubertr s to erect a complex consistingof a rectory, parish offices, neeting rooms,/classroons and a churchstructure. This involved the relocation of the church to the northside of west 78th street.
PROPOSAL/SUI.T},IARY
The applicant is requesting concept approval for a planned unit
developnent for an expansion which will include an atriuD, a1ibrary, new classrooms and housing for the elder1y. The requestedaddition will be located to the east of the existing St. Hubertrs
Church and school. The total square footage of the proposedaddition will aDount to 35r718 square feet. The plan also
envisions renovation and reuse of areas vacated by relocation of
school facilities. There will be 24 apartments designed for noreelderly nembers of the congregation. frrenty-tlro of the apartmentswill be one-bedroon, two will have two bedrooms. Parking for the
apartnents will be accomnodated in an underground structure. Dueto the age of the residents, staff does not anticipate that fullordinance standards relative to parking are required. Inexplaining the developnent progran to staff, Father Barry has
enphasized the advantages of having the church, school and senior
housing in close proxinity to one another. It will a1low senior
church menbers to have fu1l involvenent uith the church and pronote
relationships betreen the seniors and students.
The school will also gain greatly inproved classroom andadninistrative space under the proposal. Currently, eight
classrooms exist at the church conplex. Those classroons will beconverted into offices, staff lounge and room to expand theexisting library. The proposed nen classrooms wi.II be located tothe southeast corner of the property, uhile the senior housingquarters uiII be located to the northeast corner. An enclosedcourt uill be located in the center of the proposed addition to
aLlow the proposed bedroons and classroons to have natural Iight.
Access to the site rrill be obtained off of State Hvy. 101, FrontierTrail and Great Plains Boulevard. Due to the design and tlTre of
development, relatively lou traffic voluEes will b.e experienced onFrontier Trail . New bus access is proposed via a looped drivewayon 78th Street. Staff believes this is acceptable since traffic
St. Hubert PUD
August 1, 1990
Page 3
voluBes are
101.
projected to drop folloring the realignnent of Hry
The City has been conducting a senior citizen needs assessnentstudy and prelirninary results of this study indicate that there isa shortage in housing for the elderly. The proposed housing forthe elderly in this project wiII probably not elirninate theshortage but it could heLp the situation.
The proposed classrooms and the housing for the elderly will belocated on the site which currently contains 2 houses and agarage. Those structures will be denolished and the nes facilitieswill be erected. st. Hubert orrns the 2 houses and garage. Theapplicant nust go through the subdivision process to incorporatethe parcels rrhere the houses site with the st. Hubertrs Church
Parcel .
Parking to serve the apartnents is proposed to be locatedunderground and access to the parking will be obtained fronFrontier Trail. Several new surface stalls are also provided.This site has an existing parking shortfall when only on-Eitestalls are considered and it is not possible to rectify thissituation with this p1an. However, efforts have been nide toensure that adequate parking is provided for all the newdevelopnent being proposed.
Staff supports the use of the PUD ordinance for this proposal . Theproposed nix of uses can only be acconmodated with the flexibilityit provides. In addition, the PUDrs design flexibility is neededto. acconnodate the proposal in what is one of the Cityts olderneighborhoods. We beLieve the plan is well designed. Itrepresents an innovative concept that will allov an irnportantelement of our connunity to grow and adapt. Staff is recorn'nendingthat the PUD concept plan be approved.
Architecture
Architecturally, the building ritl have a pleasant appearance.Atriuns are proposed at the uest and south entrancEi of theconplex. It carries a touch of the architectural thene of thedowntown area shich wilI be a good transition point betweendowntown Chanhassen and the residential area to the east. Theclassroons and the elderly housing are proposed to be at a heightof 25 feet and setback approxinately 25 feet fron the propeityline. The najority of the houses in the neighborhood have letLacklthat do not meet the zoning ordinance reguireroents because of theage of -the neighborhood. Staff does not believe that the easterlyelevation will be irnposing on the houses across the street onFrontier TraiL rnainly because there is a large nunber of nature oak
st. Hubert PUD
August 1., 1990
Page 4
trees which the applicant intends to preserve. The building willnot act as a barrier as there is a large nunber of nindows andsliding doors that lead into balconies. The house at the northeastcorner rri11 be protected by existing mature trees on its site andalso the new addition will be setback a distance of approxinatety80 feet. The applicant is also proposing to buffer the newaddition fron the existing house lrith additional landscaping. Thearea north of the St. Hubertrs Church uiII not be directly inpactedby this new addition as there is a fair distance between the houseson the north side of Chan View and the proposed elderly housing.Staff does not foresee major traffic created on Frontier Trail asthe proposed housing is for elderly.
Access /Parking
There are currently 154 parking stalls at the existing St. Hubertrs
Church site. Access to this parking Iot is obtained from GreatPlains Boulevard. This parking area will renain as is. fuenty-three parking stalls are proposed to be located underground.
Access to the underground parking will be obtained fron FrontierTrail. A one-r^ray entrance and exit are proposed. The undergroundparking rri1l serve the elderly housing. The Zoning Ordinance
encourages the city to accept reductions in parking requirenentsfor senior housing. Care should be exercised in granting this,horrever, since nany seniors live active lifestyles and requiresanple parking. In this instance, we note that uhile this is not aproject for seniors requiring high leve1s of care, we believe theparking will be adequate. Data has been provided by Father Barryindicating that proposed parking shoul-d be sufficient based upon areview of prospective resldents. In addition, the apartnents arerelatively snall and are not easity adaptable to larger, more
intens ive living situations.
The underground stalls are supplemented by five ne!, exteriorstaI1s. Staff is reconmending that, if possible, additionalvisitor parking be provided along Frontier Trail by providing
indented parking areas with a relocated curbline. Five parkingstaLls are proposed at ground level at the northeast corner of thesite. The stalL located to the far east of that area should beelininated so as to facilitate circuLation and stay out of theright-of-way.
A 15 foot wide landscaped buffer is proposed to the north of the 5parking stalls to separate an existing house located on thenortheast corner of the site which the church plans on purchasingin the future. This 15 foot buffer can be made narrorrer to allowfor an additional parking stall.
St. Hubert PUD
Augarst 1, 1,99 0
Page 5
School buses will access the site fron the south through Hrry. Lol,to transport students attending school. Hwy. 101 is a busy one lanehighway. In Uay, 1990, a traffic count was conducted to calculate
the average number of trips per day. The results sho!, 11rO8o tripsper day. Hrry. Lol, l,iII be realigned in the near future vhich will
reduce the nunber of trips considerably. Trip projection studiesfor the year 2000 indicate that 5,400 trips will be generated perday. With these numbers, staff feels confortable sith a bus
loading area to be located off of Hwy. 101. Handicapped parking
has not been addressed on the proposed plans. The applicant mustprovide one 12 foot vide handicapped parking stall. Three parkingstalls are proposed to the east of the bus loading area. Staff
feels unconfortable with such a location as potential conflict with
buses entering the facility off of HI^ry. 101. For this reason staff
reconrnends that those sta11s be relocated to the north of theisland proposed in front of the bus loading area. Enter onLy andexit only signs should be located at the access points on Hwy. 101
which leads into the bus loading area and the access points onFrontier Trail which leads into the underground parking to clarifythat these accesses are one way traffic lanes or driveways.
Landscapinq
The landscaping concept plan that has been devel.oped provides somedetail . The applicant will try and preserve as Dany nature trees
as possible. A11 of the existing oak trees along Frontier TrailwilL be saved. creen space and trees are proposed in the court
area north and east of the proposed elderly housing and south and
east of the classroon section. Final plans should be sensitive tobuffering the Frontier Trail elevation to protect nearby singlefanily hones. The plans do not shotr the number of trees that willbe lost. It is recomnended that the applicant provide the nunber
and size of caliper and have then replaced somerrhere else on thesite as required by ordinance.
Drainaqe
The site genera).ly drains to the south and southeast. The proposed
expansion wiIl increase the percentage of inpervious surfacethrough the construction of building roofs, parking and drivewaypavement areas. The Assistant City Engineer is requestinginfonoation on the roof drains, catch basins, and storm sewerimprovenents including design calculations to be subnitted for thedepartnent ! s approval . He is also requesting that the applicantverify that provisions are incorporated to naintain the existingsurface water discharge rate prior to the expansion for a 1OO year24 hour storm. There is a concern that existing pipe anddownstrean storage nay be insufficient to accorDnodate increasedflow. If this proves to be the case, modifications to the site
st. Hubert PUD
August 1, 1990
Page 6
plan andr/or improvements to the storn uater system, will berequired. Storn sewer systens should be sized to acconmodate a 10year storr0 event. fnvert and pipe size infornation on alt existingcity storn facilities must be provided at all proposed connectionlocations.
cradinc'
At. this stage, plans do not indicate where proposed grading isgoing to take pIace. The Assistant City Engineer is iequestingthat_ the applicant provide plan infornation showing proposedgrading contours over the entire site including all paveurenl areas,erosion control neasures for inplernentation during and afterconstruction should also be addressed. civen the current flat sitetopography and grading is not expected to be najor.
RECOMMENDATION
As indicated before, the overall concept plan is an acceptable one,except for soDe changes addressed in the staff report. Staff
reconmends that the expansion of st. Hubertrs Church be given pUD
Concept Plan approval subj ect to the folloning:
1. Revise parking and access plans as requested.
2. Provide final landscaping and tree preservation plans
UtiI ities
At this stage, the applicant has not provide enough inforroation forCity staff to decide whether nev utillty service connections ni1lbe needed or if existing servlce facilities rill be used. Thisinfornation supported vith design calculations are requested to beprovided at the prelirninary final stage for the Assistant CityEngineer.
s iqnaqe
The proposed plans do not shor any signage p1ans.
Pl attincr
A repl.at of the site is required to cornbine underlying lots intoone tax parcel. It should be subnltted concurrently with thefornal PUD subnittals.
st. Hubert PUD
Augiust 1, 1990
Page 7
3.
Subnit a concurrent subdivision applicationunderlying lots into a single tax parcel .
ATTACI{MENTS
Reduced p1ans.
overview of proposal from applicant.L€tter froD Father Barry dated April 10, 1990.
Ueno fron Asst. City Engineer dated July 24, L99O.
Meno fron Fire l,larshal dated July 10, 1990.
Meno fron Building Official dated July 10, 1990.
b The applicant sha11 provide a grading plan showing
proposed contours over the site including all pavenentareas. The grading plan sha1I also include erosion
controL.
The applicant shall nodify the parking arrangenent
adjacent to the bus loading area.
The applicant sha1l provide the necessary easernent areafor the existing sanitary selrer crossing the northt estcorner of the site.
e The applicant sha11 acquire and abide by al1 necessary
agency permits, including a IhDOT driveway access perroit.
c
d
4 to conbine
1
2
3
4
5
5
responding to issues that have been raised.
Provide final engineering plans including utility, grading and
stonn drainage data:
a. The applicantrs engineer shall provide the City withcalculations verifying storn drainage and water andsanitary sewer service design.
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LUNDAHL AR@HITE@TS
5509 EDEN PRAIRIE ROAD
MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA 55315
I5 JUNE 1990
RE!ST. HUBERT.S CATHOLIC CHURCH
CHANHASSEN, M I NNESOTA
ADDTTION AND REMODELING PROPOSAL I
TOTAL GROUND COVERAGE OF EXIS,TING STRUCTURES:
RECTORY AND GARAGE:2,22O
15,531.5
S.F
SUE TOTAL 17,385.s
la . 222EXISTING SCHOOL, GYM,
OFFICES AND K I TCHEN ,
ALL To BE REMODELEO 3
TOTAL EXISTING STRUCTURES!35,607.5 S.F
NEI{ BUILDINGSTTOTAL GROUND COVERAGE OF PROPOSED
NEI.I ATRIUM AREA T I , 68 r .5
I ,203
GLEN LAKE PROFESSIONAL BUILDING
TEL. [612]-933-3oIl
FS
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LIBRARY ANNEX
CIRCULATIONI
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NEW SCHOOL (T FLOOR )
NEW HOUSING (1 FLOOR )
to,609.5
rr.l12
24 ,606 S.F
5,806.5 S.F
78,237
PLUS ENCLOSED CoURT.
PLUS TOTAL HARD SURFACED
AREAS (PARKING LOTS AND
NEW ROADWAYS )
TOTAL GROUND COVERAGE
OF NEW STRUCTURES I
TOTAL GROUND COVERAGE
OF ALL BUILDINGS AND
HARD SURFACED AREAS
TOTAL SITE AREA (FROM SURVEY)
t44,257
199,6s6
s
s
F
F oR 4.5835 ACRES
55, 399
5 i 806 .5
TOTAL OPEN AREA'
PLUS ENCLOSEO COURT
s.F
s.F 3 ,.1r*rst
CHURCH, OFFI CES, L I BRAPY
AND STORAGE:
s.F.
S.F.
s.F.
OVERVIEW:THE RENOVATION/EXPANSION PLANS OI ST. HUBERI CATHOLIC COHHUI'IITY
OF CTIANI-IASSEN MVE BEEN DEVELOPED AS A RESULT OF FOUR YEARS OF
OBSERYATIOI'IAL STUDY OF SPACE/EIWIRONMTNT NEEDS FOR WORSHIP AND
SACRAI1ENTAL LIFE OF ITS I1EHBERS AND TOR EDUCATION NEEDS FOR ITS
CHILDREN; THE STUDY CULIIIMTED IN A lEN YEAR PLAN PROHULOATED
INTHE FALL OF I988. THE RETIREI1ENT CONPLEX (THOUOH NOTATOTAL-
LY NEW CONCEPT IN CATHOLIC COMMUNITIES,) IS NETV IN TI-I,CT THIS COI1-
PLEX IS DELIBERATELY PLANNED TO BE CONNECTED TO THE EDUCATION
CENTER AND TO THE CHURCH SANCTT'ARY.
NARTHEX-ATRIUtl-ltEW L|BR RY AililEX/RESE RCH CEIIIER-.- The narthex was
conceived and dgsigned as o meani of allwiating some congregotion werflow at some of the Sun''
day and special H0LYDAY services. The prwision for a nsw library and 8n annex (audio visuals
t0 be gathered in this sdult educ8tlon spffi), is necessitsted W the usage of present library
spact for the northex. The atrium, contiguow to the northex nmr the pr*ent church entrance,
grew from the special environmental and spre needs dictated by smramentsl liturgical ser -
vices Bnd psrticulsr'ly by the NEW RITE 0F CHRISTIAN BURIAL, whtcn calls for 6n eyFanLled
vigil service for the dead et the church - the day (erening) before the internment.
NEW EDUC TIOil CENIER... After a:sessing our needs and studying available space, arch!-
tecls sLrgqested we build a new, two-story, twelve rmm educstion center.
(IHIS EXPANSION/REOYATION }YITI NOT INCRTAST IHE POPULATIOT{ OF IiIE
ACIIYITIIS OF THESE AREAS...EXCEPI FOR CCD ON WEDHESDAY NIOHTS.)
RETIREI.IEN T COMPLEX: Ihiscom plex is envisioned as 6n Ensvt'er to marry of the ptry-
sicsl , psychologic€l , and spiritual n€eds of our elderly. lt is I concept that completes the con-
cept of total Christian csmmunity...Bnd spoial ctristian community for the elderly.
A) Direct connection to the sanctuary ond education centel' allorvs for parlicipation in all
St. Huber"t Church mtivities without having to face the weathen.
I ) Develops a specisl communlty sh8rlng with frienG in the same Foith mmmunity.
ET. HIEffiT EiATHOIIG CBSflmlIY REffioYATIOil ANB
ffiPAMBIOM PB@OTAIT
(PROFILE OF PLAN AND PURPOSE)
A) ll- removes the qraration of almmt inlolersble noise creoted by the gymnmium activity
in the center of the present eight classr@ms. .
B ) l1 provides for other space nee6:
I . Classrmm space for religious education o{ atr children.
2. Added classrom spar for our doysch@I.
3. Cafteria. ( presently rb not hwe a cafeteria)
4. Secretery/principal office.
5. Nurse station.
5. P hysical education/ comh office.
7. Staff lounge.
6. ExponH religious educatlon offlce spee.
9. Expanded library spm.
'I 0. Extr8 meeting rmm.
I l. llore storry area.
C) Utilizes the sp@ial bond thot results from children/elenly relatlonshlps:
l. "Abpt a grandporent"... "dpt o gondchild" progroms.
2. Special tutoring.
3. Lunch progrsms ...eating with chlldnen.
4. Proven psychologically positive effect on elderly to be around children.
D) Allows seniors to feel worthwhile as they can fu little things for their church
I . Flowers and lawn care.
2. Sanctuary care.
3. office 6ssistance.
PARKING: A study of awareness of need and plan has al-
ready been presented to city officials. The
retirement complex will have underground
parking. (A study of the first twenty-four
applicants shorys a total of l6 cars among
them.)
PLAYGR0UND: Adequate space is being proyided.
TREES: Some trees will be lost...many more will be
planted. Almost all the maples will be saved.
A few very nice oaks will be lost-
LANSCAPING: Vill provide plenty greenery... vest side
of present school building will be landscaped
vith trees and shrubbery.
St. Huben6 Church and School
T
7707 Grear Plaln3 Blvd. Chanhas6cn, Mlnn6ol. 55317 Telephone: 934-9106
Mr, PauI Kraus
City Pl anne r
Chanhassen City Hal l
690 Coulter Driwe
Chanhassen, Mn.55317
Dear PauI:
I
The encfosed brief is
assessment of parking sent as a previ.ew of ourat St. Hubert Church.
on-going
}'ou will note that the only realIy regular overflow occurs on
Sunday mornings between 9:30 and 10:30. It should not be getting
any worse since we note that the comnunity menbers who dontt Iike
crowded services tend to drift toward the earlier or later mass.
Note also our vision for the future. We are planning ahead.
being
needs
I would
Easter,
gone on
like to
if that
" spr i ng
meet with you
is poss ible.
break . ")
sonetime
(The two
during the week after
weeks after that I will be
Sincerely,
?^ Bor,r4,f
----:': -_'J
APR 111993
I,II\ OFCHANHASSEITI
April 10, 1990
FR. BARRY SCHNEIDER, O. F. M.
PASTOR/ADMINISTRATOR
PARKING - AVAILABILITY AND NEED
ST. HUBERT CHURCH ' CHANHASSEN' I.{INNESOTA
ApriI ' 19 90
(An outline overview
St. Hubert Cathol ic
of parking availabilities and needs at the
Conmunity facilities in downtown Chanhassen)
As the 1990's begin and St. Hubert's community continues to grow
in nunbers at a very fast pace, concerns arise about present and
future owerflows in the parking areas Presently available. The
following outline will. indicate "trouble" times along with a vis-
ion for future parking space expansion.
SATURDAYS -- 5:15 EVENING MASS
No present problems involving owerflor. Projections do
not see this church service needing Dore space for at
Ieast three years.
OVERFLOW DOES OCCUR on days when there is a wedding and
the parish ha1l is used for reception and dinner.
The advantage here is that the wedding Suests are
in the lot first and the overflow lasts just one
hour --fron 5:15 to 6:30 P.trl.
OVERFLOW ALSO OCCURS when there happens to be a church
function at Old St. Hubert across the street - when
guests of the Colonial Church are not knowledgeable
about parking areas and use the St. Hubert lot.
I
SUN YS 8:00 A. M. MORNING
not foreseen to be
I.{ASS ( Never an overf low and
a problem tine. )
I : 30 A, M. MORNING !,1ASS. . . This period of time sees
the nost frequent overflow since this is the
most popular of the services because of the
time slot and because there are classes for the
3-5 year-old children during the tlass. There
is also some "holdover" from those who stay for
socializing after the 8:00 A.M. Mass. There
is also a parking overflow when events such as
scout pancake breakfasts utilize our hal1. THE
PTANNED EXPANSION OF THE SANCTUARY INTO A SMALL
NARTHEX WILL NOT ADD TO THE PARKING OVERFLOW
SINCE THAT EXPANSION WILL BASICALLY JUST MOVE
THE OVERFLOW CONGREGATION FEOI.I PORTABLE CHAIRS
PRESENTLY BEING USED IN THE REAB SANCTUARY.
--11:30 A M. MORNING MASS (No overfLow
when there are breakfasts or
the 9: 30 llass. )
problems ex-
socializingcept
after
THERE ARE NO PROBTE}IS ON SCHOOL DAYS OR AT TII.IES OF SPECIAL
SCHOOL FUNCTIONS. NOR ABE TITERE PROBLEMS ON RELIGIOUS EDUCATION
EVENINGS SINCE PARENTS JUST DROP OFF THERE CHILDREN AND RETURN
FOR THEI.' LATER.
PRESENT SOLUTIONS: The church facilities committee is studying a
realignment of parking stations in the lot--potent ial l y offer-
i.ng sone twenty-four more parking stations. However, that plan
would necessitate people having to "naneuver" their ways to the
entrance rather than having clear "aisIes."
FUTURE PLANS:Properties contiguous to the present parking area
on the north and northeast will becone available for purchase
sooetime in the future. ( Sone in the very near future. ) At
such tine, St. Hubert will purchase those properties for future
development, sone of which will necessarily include ample park-
ing space.
RETIREMENT DWELLING Underground parking wiII be provided for
this developnent along with sone open
parking space for staff and guests.
EDUCATION BUILDING EXPANSION: This expansion will not increase
the daytime population of the school. buildings since it
merely noves the student populace to a new area while
providing needed office and ueeting roon space where
present classroons are located.
3
CITY OF
CH[IiIH[EEE[I
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(61 2) 937_1 900 . FAX (512) 937_s739
IUEJUORANDU}I
TO:
FROU:
DATE:
SUBJ !
DRAINAG E
GRADING
Sharmin Al-Jaff, Planner I
Charles Fo1ch, Assistant City Engine ", F
July 24, 1990
Review of PUD for St. Hubert Church Development of aLibrary Annex/Research Center, Expansion of the EducationCenter and a Retirement ComplexFile No. 90-17 Land Use Review
At this time, a general engineering review of the site has beenconducted. A complete review will be made when nore detailedinformation is provided by the applicant at the prelininary /fir.al-submittal stage.
The existing site for the proposed expansion drains primarily tothe south and southeast via overland f1ow. fhe najoiity of inisarea is a pervious surface. The proposed expansion wiIl increasethe percentage of impervious surfaces through construction ofbuiLding roofs and parking anil driveway pavernent areas.Information on the location of roof drains, catch basins andstorm sewer improvements, incluiling design calculations, wiII berequireil for the next submittal . The applicant also needs toverify that provisions are incorporated to maintain the existingsurface water discharge rate prior to the expansion for a100-year 24-hour stonn. Storm serrer systems shoulal be sized toaccommodate a 10-year storm event. Invert andl pipe sizeinformation on all existing City storm facili ties- Elust beprovided at all proposed connection locations.
The applicant needs to proviile plan information showing proposedgrading contours over the entire site including all pavemenlareas. Erosion control measures for implementation during andafter construction must be addressed.
sharmin A1-JaffJuly 24, 1990
Page 2
UTILITIES
At this time it iswill be needed forfacilities wi I1 be
calculations willsubnittal stage.
not knosn if new utility service connections
the expansion or if existing serviceused. This information supported with design
need to be provided at the preliminary /final
theThe plans submitted show a sanitary sewe! extending through
northwest corne! of the site that may have been constructed
outside of the actual dedicated easement. If this is found
so, a new or extendeal easement will neeil to be acquired for
actual location of the sanitary sewer.
to be
the
STREETS
Access driveway modifications are proposed on the east siile off
of Frontier Trail and on the south side off of Trunk Highnay 101.
The two accesses off of Frontier Trail will function as a one-wayin antl out system for the underground parking. These accesseswill replace tiro existing resiilential driveways. Thus, there is
no net increase in the number of accesses on this protion of
Frontier Trail.
There is currently one driveway access to this site from frunk
Highway 101. The proposal will eliurinate the existing access anil
create two new ones incorporated into a bus loading and unloadingarea. It is anticipated that this type of access system could
function compatibly with the future traffic volume after Trunk
Eighway 101 is realigned and the present segnent is reverted backto a resiilential collector street. However, a !.!nDOT driveway
access permit will be required. Actual curb cut locations nay be
adjusted pending IrtnDOT review. Information on bus scheduling
also needs to be proviiled to determine bus loatling area capacity.rEnter onlyn and nexit on1y" signs will be required to establish
a one-way traffic pattern through the Ioading area.
PARX ING
Three visitor parking stalls are proposed north of the bus
loading area. Cars backing out of these stal1s could potentiallyconflict vrith buses entering the facility off of Trunk Eighway101. A viable al,ternative nay be to locate these parking stalls
on the south end of the loading area.
Sharmin Al-JaffJuly 24, 1990
Page 3
1. The applicant's engineer shal1 provide the City with
calculations verifying storm ilrainage and s,ater and sanitary
sewer service design.
2. The applicant shall proviile a grading plah showing proposed
contours over the site including all pavement areas. Thegrading plan shall also inclutle erosion control .
3. The applicant shaI1 modify the parking arrangement adjacentto the bus loading area.
4. The applicant shall provide the necessary easement area forthe existing sanitary sewer crossing the northwest corner ofthe site.
The applicant shall acquire and abide by all necessary agencypermits,including a UnDOT driveway access permit.
ktm
5
RECOIIIIENDED CONDITIONS
CITY OF
CH[NH[SSEN
MEMORANDUM
To: JoAnn Olsen,
FROtr{: Mark Littfin,
DATE: JuIy 10, 1990
SUBJ: #90-1 P.U.D.
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-s739
Seni or PI anner
Fi re Mar sha I
St. Huber t ' s Expansion
1 The site plan meets
fur ther conments at
the Fire Department approval .this t ime.
No
Jo Ann Olsen. Senior Planner
CITY OF
CH[NH[ESEN
&qa
MEMORAN DUM
TO:
FROM:
DATE :
SUBJ:
Bui lding Official
PUD (St. Hubert's Church)
I ) One publ icly accessible handicap parking stall must be
prov ided.
2)An
to
area
avoid
separation wall must be provided if it is desirablesprinklering the existing building.
Steve A.
Ju I y 10 .
Planning
Kirchman,
1990
Case 90-1
690 COULTER DRIVE . PO. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
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CITY OF
EH[I{H[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147' CHANHASSEN. MINNESOTA55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
TO:
FROU:
DATE:
SUBJ :
Planning Conmission
aro Ann Olsen, Senior ttanner fu)
July 10, 1990
Policy on Access Through a Wetland
on June 20, 1990, ..the planning Conmission heard conflictingopinions on what is the best roeanJ ot iEcess to open uater througha wetland (Attachnen-t_#1). The pranning connissi6" ""qo.itii tt.tpat Lynch from the DNR, rrho was contactela uy trr" ilpii.=i"IJ]"tt.r,athe next- plannins coromission neerin! io-exirain tni;;-;;;iiio' onaccess through a wetland.
Since .adoption of the iretland ordinance, staff has used theexpertise of the Fish and Icildrife se-ice, corps of Engineers andDNR i'n deterrninino wetr.and a...=
"rra
-rrr"t should or should not bedone to then. onE of tue nosi-connon-ilque.ts is for access to alake across a rretland area. wtren consia'e;i", .pti";.I-Jiiir ,""!?tq uv -the above parties thar a uoalawari -r"-rl."J"dl -Jo,ira u.preferred since it resulted in a one tine alterition to1,he'rritranaand arlows the rretrand vegetation to ieturn to its ,rit-,r..i -
=t.t.around the boardwalk. Thii practice has ueen ror-rorea iilie c:.tvin arl cases even when a uoarawali--laor="= over dry uetr.ands-(exanple: Doczy on rptua rake and c"ir="" - e.;' "i' I,ax.llinnevashta).
Staff has contacted Ceil Strauss and pat Lynch of the DNR andrequested one or both to attend the Auqust r=€ piannins-t"r;i".i""n::!]Ts. pat Lynch wirl attend tr," 'n."ti"s ;;_iuqi;3il;-. rnaddition, staff -requested ,etters fron-ihe otr, corp6 oi rrrglrr""."and Fish and wildlife on vhat sould bL the 'preflrr"a n"'"r* otaccess through a rretla-nd- to open uater. pat Lyi:ch fras s-uUnittea aletter- _ t{r. Lynch's retter itatea trre r..rr"-n.r-ul-J"i.-i"iro""aand wirr attend the. planning co*is-ion neetin! 1" -iaa"-"-=. trr.issue (Attachnent #2). ceil - strauss -oi' tt " DrR stated she uourdsubnit a letter describing- the generai poricy "r-it"-onnl staffhas not yet received the -,etter-. paut - aurxe subnitted a retterrepresenting the Fish and r{ildlife's positio; ";;;;-Jtiriogn "
}{EUORANDIJI.I
Policy on Access through WetlandJuly 23, 1990
Page 2
uetLand which states that boardwalks are preferred over filling
(Attachnent #3). I,Iick weburg, chief of uinnesota Permit Analysisfor the Corps of Engineers, stated over the phone that the
environmentally preferred alternative would be to first Linit the
nuDber of accesses by using cornbined access on lot Lines and that
they rould then encourage boardwalks as the means of access.
In the past and with the recent inguiries, staff has explained to
other governing parties that our lretland ordinance allows the cityto regiulate lretlands beyond rrhat they are able to control (i.e.
beyond the ordinary high water mark, wetlands under 2 acres insize, etc.) and if they could regulate as far as they wanted, what
would be their rrwish list'r in protecting wetlands. of course theirposition, as is ours, is no alteration unless it is an inprovementto the wetland. But in the case Irhere some forro of access should
be allowed through a wetland, the three parties have consistentlysaid that a boardwalk (elevated) would be the preferred means of
access over filIing, dredging or at-grade boardwalk. Staff has
reconmended boardwalks on the advice of the nore knowledgeableparties and stifl believes this position has merit and sltould
continue to be applied. we also agree with the applicant that toproperly enforce this position, the retland ordinance should be
anended to incfude specifics on access through wetlands.
As far as the issue in front of the Conmission tonight all of theparties have stated that a boardwalk sould be preferred but if theapplicant is villing to renove the najority of the wetland fillthat they would aIlow the snaller strip of fill to renain. To
quote one, rrthere are bigger fish in the rraterl and irthe fiII rrillnot be that danaging to the wetlandsrr. But in light of their
regrulations and what they can control, nuch of rrhat the City
regTulates with our wetland ordinance would be lrsnall fishrr to then
and going back to their t'wish listrr we are enforcing rrhat they
would if they cou1d.
The city is being faced with a decision rhether to uphold the
rretland ordinance as in the past with no rretland alteration unlessit is an improvernent to the wetland or to reach a conpronise in
cases rrhere the applicant is satisfied and the City ninimizes thewetland disturbance. It is clear that the proposed uetland
ordinance revisions will have to include a clear policy stateDentto avoid this sort of problen in the future.
If the Planning Conuission and City Council uish to be consistentwith past practice and believe a boardrratk is the least harnful tothe wetland, then all of the fill should be removed and only aboardwalk pernitted. Should the Planning Connission and CityCouncil feeL the filt strip used as an access is acceptable, thenthe applicantrs request shoul.d be approved. In either case, thePlanning Conmission and City Council should be prepared to direct
Po1icy on Access through WettandJuly 23, 1990
Page 3
staff on rrhat the Cityrs policy on wetland alteration should be,
how strongly should it be enforced and when, if ever, is conpromiseacceptable. In light of the Cityrs past background on matters ofthis sort and reluctance to establish a new precedent in advance ofconpleting a comprehensive wetland study, staff is reconmendingthat an elevated boardwalk be required.
Ch€.:r rian Corrrad called the meeti.ng to order aL 7t40
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COI.iI,IISSION
REGULAR T,IEETING
JUNE 20, 1990
IIEHBERS PRESENT: SLeve Enimings, Ladd
HEHBERS ABSENT: Tim Erhart, Annette
STAFF PRESENT: PauI Krauss, Planning
Planrrer; Sherrr,in Al-Jaff , Planner One;
6nd M6rl. K:,egler, Consultant
P.nr..
Batzli and Joan Ahrens
tJi ldermuth
Ann Olsen, SeniorCity Engi neer ;
Conrad, Brian
EIlson and Jim
Director; Jo
Gary tlarren,
PUBLIC HEARING:
I.'ETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO CONSTRUCT A
].'ETLAND TO ACCESS A DOCK LOCATED AT 7OL6
LOTUS LAKE BETTERHENT ASSOCIATION.
I.JALKI.IAY PATH THROUGH A CLASS A
SANDY HOOK CIRCLE, CHRIS ENGEL FOR
4DDNE !S,
-1o P..rr, C):,;r' 5rese:,ted Lhe s,taff report. Chairman Conrad called the p.uf,li c
l-,:lr-'i . ] '..1 ,-)-.'{-t' .
( l-,r i ; Fr:2e )-
il:ch F,.,.-
7076 Sand/ Hook Circ le
like to make a statentent regarding the staff report. First offthare's nu.rr.rous inciications, numerous notations in here as toproF,.,r't/ !t says, in various sections of property was f iIl.ed,lil': tr' ciarify that point because in essence the proposed or tof the bc,ard at the Betterment Association uras not necessarilywetland and hJe did not maliciously try to alter the wetland. t^l
came dowrr and laid a truckload of rock so that ure coul.d accessour Iakeshore property at 25 feet there. It allows us also to
Chr i". lirr5:,1 fl.) nam€ is Chris ErrgeI . For the record, EngeI at TOii- S;.; r,dyHa.: a:;.-1.? . Th; t 'l n,:,, residence. I don't I ive on the tennis cour'!stlrer-- Fr.rt I'rn Fr€3.errtIy acting as President of the Lotus Lake Er-,tterme:-,t "]
Assci i.,;i i ir, . TLE'- 's why I 'm here tonight in regard to this issue. I 'm I
s,ur'€ niost <,f t lre Courrc iI or the Conrmission members are aNare of the pyocessthat is taking place on this piece of land over some 18 months noi,.j. i'd
fi
I'
he
to
e
mo
br
concernlng
l1 and the
d just
intentionfiIl the
simply
re easr I y
ing ourboats across there. Not necessarily our outboards but our canoes, Therafts, some paddle boats, etc. and the reason also I bring that point up is-in my conversatio'ns with the DNR, specifically Pat Lynch, our greatesterror that I can see with what we did at that property is that we simply
made our pathway too r,li de ini tial Iy . t^le made it 25 f eet approximatley wi de_by approximaLely 42 feet long up from the Iakeshore. The DNR regulationsspecifically state that there is not even a DNR requirement for,a property
o!.1ne r- or a private Iandowner to selk a permit from the DNR regarding accessto a lake for private boat launching and that is, we do yes have 6 dockthere L'u,t we also launch boats there. And we felt that our position rlasPretty squared away with the DNR and like I say, I do have a copy of the
DN-R regulations irr front of me and I don't know if you have that but under -61 115.O?1O, Structures in protected tJalers, subparagraph C(1) is what I'mreferring, i'. states that privately owned ramps shall not exceed 12 feet in
E!:.i= -L.C- -llf:l,l I- -:l i.'
t':i-
F').anning
Ju n€. 20,
Commission Heet i ng
1990 - Page 2
r.;.i dt !-, :. i-rcl extend nrot'e than 1O feet beyond the ordinary high water nrark andf note ordinary high water mark also woul.d indicate, this paragrach isreferrirrg to properLy that wouLd be in r.retland area or into water of nr+rethan 4 feet in depth, whichever is less. Excavations, S cubic yards orless and placement of up to 5 cubic yards of crushed rock, grave), clear,
san,J or small <tones shall. be allowed in order to provide a stable base an-lmairrlain use of the ranrp, Agai.n, this paragraph refers to something ti-,61the eliR has condoned as a natural process for allowing access to the l;ke.This i= a private property and we felt that since the DNR did come dc,v.,r,along rit-h the time Iast summer when I met with Jo Ann and some of theother staff people, we agreed that ule were in violation of the width ofthis p.roFerty and we felt then that r^re still would be allowed some type ofa t,oa;<ii.r;L k, pathuay, whatever. Ouite honestly, the 12 feet Nas sometl,i ngt!',;r u-: r, r,..,.jll h;r"a preferred because it would give us better accessit'iIityar,,j i-l,€ 'r'eEs.:,ii that r proposed or we proposed iimply a pathway was. sirr,;.)yr,-,t-l-,': - r, t - r-l-;;-r : cLrrT'promise between us and the City along with tr,wirr3 tocarit"1.' *i'. l-r the DN!\ so that we could in fact have accessibilty to this' areaar'J ;'.:rrt.- . L a I=sser cost to the Association since t-he gravel is alreadyir, ;.1;cc-. I refsr back to also the fill statement that f made at theorr..i: - t,l:. Cid rrct fiII this property. tJe did no! bring dirt down. i.ie CicJrrot Frrl I c,:-rl Fi,:'p,)e Loosestrife by any illegaL rrearrs. Ue sinrply brc,ughtt-h.; '-.-,:1, ,:1,:;r,L;r inC laid it on top of the muck that was already there. It-;ot:lci alsc, I iLc to make one comm€,rrL, f irra) corTrment regarding past practicebec;i;s: ii: r,u.: s al.so mentioned in the staff report about past practice. Il-,atle I ivecl c.r' th: Iake or rrear the lake f or about 4 yeays now and have
n,:'t i,-e,-1 t l-ra t i;-r t.he last year , specif ical. Iy on the Hest side of Lotus Lake,tl-,ere are 3 F,roperties that are relativeJ.y new I r.rould say within tl-,e lasti r;,or,tl--- tlr;t have pathways to the lake and I u,as over at those propertiesye::t€rday. Ti-'eir addresses aye 49O Bighorn Drive, 480 Bighorn Drive, and47i ?iglr,,rn Drive- AII of trhich have highly developed iakeshore property.
4?O Fighi,rrr Drir.,e has a rockway path to the lake with pavers that they usea:r sL.ppirrg stones. 480 has a boulder edging along the Iakeshore with sodup to the waterf rorrt. And 471 has developed lakeshore wilh sod and a sand
lieacl-r wl'rich obviously they dumped sand there. I guess I only bring up thispoint as to discuss and to point out the past practice. I question thestaff comment about the consistency and the recommendetions because in factthese properties have far extensive, more extensive development of theirIakeshore than we're proposing here. I would ask the Commission as uell asthe City and the staff to reconsider on their recommendation to the Lotus
Lake Betterment Association and as a compromise, if you r.rill, allou, us arock pathway to our dock. It would be the upside of that for us, as I
mentioned earlier, uould be we're talking about an area that is thruwetland. HohJever, the cost of us putting dock in as opposed to leaving itas it is and removing the rock that's in violation would be in theneighborhood of $7,8OO.OO just to buy sections of dock, My conversationwith trat- Lynch yesterday, one final note. I do not have Hritten
docuriier,tat jon of this but Pat Lynch quite honestLy I tal ked to him and
aske.J him what his feeling was again about the rock as opposed to the dockor boards because f would refer also to Jo Ann's comment about a boardwalkbecause tlrere's no specification as to how the boardtral k would beconstructed. If in fact we were to put a boardwalk down by simply bringing2 x 8 boards and butting them up side by side and laying them down onto themuck, I would question lhe amount of vegetation that Nould grow up through
Batzli moved, Ahrens seconded to close the public hearing. AII voted infavor and the motion carried. The publ.ic hearing uas closed.
Co r'r ad:
tal k to
Conrad: Okay .
Olsen: The one
Conrad: Joan,
fo Ann, before bJe 9o around the Planning Commission why don'L you
r"rg. ;, littl. L,it about rock path versus boardwalk.
Ols:,-: 3g,i,1 11..'ye get-ting different, and i don't want to pit .Cif ferent
peo;-;.- ..rr r hc f i.iF zgairrs:t orre another , whatet,er but who I used to w:,r1.. r.,rltlr
i: C;il !traus.: a r-r J she's our distric! person and again speaki.rrg r^rith her,
they frefel the L.oarcjwal ks orrer storres go we're getting differerrt c,pinions
arrJ the t- h:pper's ir, any depaltment so f don't knor,: hor.r to argrre dif f ereirt
peoFl*'s, c,i'j r,ic,rr':. cn t het . As f ar as t he boardwalk and our reasoni rrg f or
tl.,-t , .:n,J y€--: (e don'L have specif ic dinrensions on that and how it shoulJ
be ccr,:..*.ructell L-,u+- the reasoning as Cel has sajd and then also the Fish arrd
tli1c.llif = arr.j tl',e Corps is that that's there. The boarduralk is there arrC
ther; you're rrot pr.rtting in rnore rock or putting in nrore dirt when it er.odes6 ay or woodchipe or whatever and that's one of our reasons for supporting
that. He also brought up Bighorn. I know of one lot that I did go visit
th.?re th3t- alre6d/ had a clearing there. ft uJas a natural clearing that weall:,:ieil tlr: ii, to 6ccess the water. I have.n't been to those other lots so Ne
ce,i cl-,.j{ i' i! out.
LOnr;a: I rn)r,l\
CLse;,: Fut '.i-r;
we have to.
difference lhere is wetland versus just not Hetland so.
On Bighorn, were those wetlands?
lot that I looked at ulas not Netland.
Ahrens: I seethe ordinance
that ?
questions?
Steve Iookingsaid about the
up the ordinance there. I was
boardwal ks. Is there anything
uJonder i ng wha tspecific about
Emmings: I don't know and f'm not looking for Lhat but I can teII you thatit's beei'r what we've done in the past but I don't know that it's in the
or di na nce .
Olsen: No,i t.'s not .
the irrtent to lay the boardwalks down on the ground or to haveAhrens: J3i
it e I evated?
Planning Conrrnission Meet i ng
Jun. 20, 1990 - Page 3
th.rse L'carrJ.:,. i as.ked Pat Lynch about that fact and he said you're exactlyright. The point being, the DNR r^rould actually prefer rock be used fo:- thepathway 6s aF,poE.ed to boards simply because rock is more ecologically s.c,urrd_
than a board path. Like I say, I don't have written statements from hirn tothat fact L,ut that is in fact u:hat he told me yesterday. Thank you.
Conrad: Tharrks for your comments Chris. Are there any comments? Other
comments? Is there a motion to close the public hearing?
Plarrning
Ju rre 20 ,
Conir,rission Meet i ng
1990 - trage 4
o1.r-n:
el ive t€ l
wet I a rrd
L!stra I I;,
€cau::
t"rithirs,
Nhat r^re'r,e done, Hhat hes been done is they've t,e e:-,a lot of times you're through h,ater. A lot of times thc:n the ,,Jater so it is up. Posts into the water arrd we+. land-
Ahrens: So if someor,e
f or a perr-',i t .
canre in and wanted to build a boardwalk arrd askeC
Ols.en: h'e have almost always given those r yes.
al - i- i- -,-- I .l . i-
;i,,-r--: ^l ,.i:
Chii' I: --r-l: T<: t!-r* L,est of our knoulege, again, betweenccnt-r.cl+rs uho ,jid th+ Hork, there Has a permit obtainednor:, s..,1':::.: i,ti ; clidir't just come down there and dump a IOadi;: - -: pe:'r,.iL c,!: LairreJ to the best of oirr knowledge.
us and th6
And you di iof rc,c l. . There
Ahr:;ig: i.l.:i s. that part cf the whole permit process of the f i).lin9?
CIse:-, : L.rel I I don't knoll if
het.l.arr.l a l.,e:-atictr fc,r these
!!o,- .t . t:- - uu L -
you remercber, we r^rentlots and that's uihere
through the r.rho 1ethere was a permi! that
Ahre:-r:: Eut th= City rraintains it wasn't approved?
C]::.:- : l,ll. There was a letter sent out by the previous planner , Barb Dacys.tating +-het th'.y Cid receive the pernrit application but that there nray bea wetlanj o'r t-lre property and a wetland alteration permit might berequired. At that time though I think Ne were only working with pf arrLuch
and Frost and lhen when we 9o! to that process, that's urhen we gol into theLotus Lake Betterment Association.
Chris Engel: t^lell they had used our land to access the properties to thesouth of us to do their lakeshore work and damaged our property so that u,ebasically had to bring something in. It ulas so dug up from the Bobcat andso forth and just dump some rock there to make it possible Lo get onto your
dock or in your boat or ualk through there without ualking into any muck.
Ahrens: I guess urhat's really key here for me is that it is a Class Auretland there. Your quotation of the DNR regulations, I didn't hearanything that mentioned access to the lake through a wetland and what wouldbe okay uriLh the DNR.
Chris Ensel: Llell th6t's not really true because if you read, I can give
these cc'pies, because if you study the DNR regulations, they would notrefer to the regu).ations as over the ordinary high ulater mark unless theywere discussing a uetland. That does denote wetland.
Ahrens; Arr elevated boerdwalk? So it would be elevated over the r.ret.land?It wc,uldn't be sitting on the ground? How did the rock path get put inpl.;c; to Legin with? tJas there a permit for that? There was none? 9o I,nisorr)', I f c,r-got )..our name.
Cl:e.': lir :f o.;lC Foi r,l out that the Dl.lL' has jurisdiction only at the
crc:,-.;r / 1...;''. iiter m3r'k ar'd beloL.J.
Ch'ri= Engel: I tl-,j nk it's important for the commission and a]l of us +-o
L'ee,- i.r r,i'n j th=t you know, we try to entrust the Fish and Hildlife, thi.
Dlli r..: i +- t, Frot€cting our natural resources and f 'm just wonclerirrg if i i:: c'f
u= L 11.'- r',:.i-,rr fjlel -i more ql.,alif iej than the DNR f guess to make the
decision or to override what the DNR says or would allour it in thjs (.sc.
Conrs.l
wl-,ole
I r.:e do have
tinre.
an ordinance and r,Je spent over'the las! 10 )ears 6-
The
t.. : ,'
pc,irrt is your ordinance doesn't discuss, doesn't ci c.+.ate
l"rc, it dc,errr 't h.ut it does protect Type 6, arrd Type F HetJ a;'rd:
ha, v: restrictions for everything.
c f :-::.
rr:l: a rrd
t':. r.rc,t that the City hasn't, the City has spent a wl',cla., lot
a tahcle; lot cf time over the past 1O years protectir,g the
ti,at': r.l-,y you're l''ere. ThaL's why there's a uetlattd
.. J=s, To try and keep the lakes a little bit cleaner tl-'ar1
unfoi'.unateIy thoge of us on the Planning Commission have': tiin: t-l'lan uJe'd ever want to listening to wetlanJ issue:'but-l-f )
we Ci, -
us-= who
oPPOSeO
lrery
aY ea'I .,
l
t
t s.hould be...egain like I say, Pat Lynch as
district representative for the DNR up unti.I
Lynch probai;ly has nrore experience hrith this
also quote.i in the staff report.
Ahren€.: i^,+lL i tirink the City position of reguiring boardtaalks o.rer theuretl:nd: i: l-:a;e ;J on good public policy and I think there's a lot of
lJet]arrds irr tlie Cily of Chanhassen Lhat we seek to protect that are not
under th€ jurisdiction of the DNR at all. I mean it's not that the DNR, Ijust wanted to finish my statement. I wiII go along with staff
recommendation on this. I think it's good that-r^re require boardualks and
that we have a consj.stent policy. I think ..le need to have a consistentpolicy rather than having some people have boardwalks and oiher peopLe
feeling free to juSt do, build anything through a wetland area. I'lI 90along with the staff recommendation.
FI:,;..,i', C:'riri l;.: j6';r Meat-ing
-'lr ne. lC , 1?.0 - F age 5,
Chris Engel: Are Ne more concerned with upholding the ordinance or are r^re -more concerned t^rith. . .actually proper u,ith those agencies. The fac! of thematter .is, r,or.; you're telling me that Ne construct a boardwalk because, outof v:ood, because in fact the wood is what ue've done in the past. Doesthet nre.arr it's betler? No. Does that mean we have to do it out of Hood?No. 8ui wl-,ich really is better for Lotus Lake? You tell me on one handthat /ou're concerned about ecology and the survival of Lotus Lake. I just
explaineJ to you that the DNR in fact told me that and also by theregulations it doesn't state constructing boat ramps out of wood. It talks
65out con3tri.lcting boat ramps out of rock and sand. Those are providing
Plar'nin3 Commission Meet i ng
1990 - trase 6
r-;ni ure djdn't say prove it and we didn't have technical evidence,:l !-,ave iti? come i n and say , and it was probably a dif f erent pers.on
cii.-' e..e.;' t hst L,cardwal ks were ecologically superior . you could get
116tLrraL f iltration t:, the lake. Boards do not and yet you..,anyrio)-€-
vege|.stion to grod up aroun,J those boards than you do through that rock....in the process of the betterment of the ]ake. Not whether h,e kent t. tiepropei according to the ordinance. Do r^,hat's right for the lake.
Conrad: I think we agree with you that we should do r,rhat's right with thelahe for two reasons. One, we are concerned with water guality, t^theti-rerit's Lo'!ue or any other ]ake. Two, consistency of our interpretation ofthe ordlnance is real important because you quoted or your referenced sc,meother lots that m6y not have t,een doing thingls properly and what we'vefound here is wfren ure are inconsistent, then the policy becomesinconsistent arrcl the rr e!/erybody has a very 1e9a1 way to 9o back to the cityof Chanhaseen to s6/ you've allot^red it over here and you didn'L here.
Tlr.:' =f i r., f r-c)l! a s.u-it s,tandpoint, fronr a lawsuit, we dorr 't have arra:-dir,::-,c.;. Or,c.: you bre.ah the ordinance you've basicaLly, in terris .3f how
):..-: r':l€ ,: -i'-, y'ou L,lsically Con't have one 6nymore. I thirrk your po! nt.thii-';.-'r; l-;rirr;ing up Chris is a valid cne. If rock is a L,ette).
:.rLs.i i'--1r il.ti,: '-o:rdr,lalk, we slrould know about it and we should charrge,i,;.: =h.:rlJ p,ut tiraL into our policy if that's'the c6s€. Uha! we ha...e hea:j,a',,:l I'r': ! r.<;t-, .invc,lr.,eC, I hate to keep saying f 've been here, but f 've beerrher'.: anJ f 've l-:.:srd a whole lot of experts teII us what t^,as ecologicali y
:.1e t t "w: .li
:-l i^
i,16ich
Path!,i
L-,ut
i : L: .,:ri,-i: othe;- issues too .Ho,a are the boards treated? And you know; r,i e
9;-1, iito t l-,cs,r. things. If the boards are treated with something that'ecr:lr-,:-ical l'/ pocr, !,re may be damaging the situation so I understand r.rhat
s.a )'
L3
.i:rg, I think right nor,l we don't have evidence to say that our:rct right. I think we'Il challenge staff tonight to come back to
':-. a little bit about thaL to make sure lJe are enforcing a pcjicyrigl-i one. [^le're obviously getting some different information.orr)
Ahrens: f was just going to say, some rocks are also treated withpetroleu;i producls and alI sorLs of other things.
Chris Engel: There uas al.so no mention in any of the previous testimony ordocumentaLion. Quite frankly the first time I've ever heard or readanything about an elevaled, now ure're into elevated boardwalks, wastonight. Somehow that's an issue that just all of a sudden's been raisedsince f guess, I guess maybe since I brought up the point of how vegetationwould, uhen f visited with Jo Ann, how the vegetation is going to grow
through boards.
conrad: Well they should be elevated. Absolutely.
i, i:J.i i
6 ncl L
ei out
: ThaL's never been mentioned... The commissionity Council, they never, ever gave us a directivecf elevated boardural ks.
report fronto make t hat
Corrrad: It's probably assumed that people urould becauseto get wet buL again, it's one of those things. I don'ttechn.ical tut basically a wetland operates aII together.
Lhey didn't want
uant to get too
If you ,Jrra ke one
Flarrni rrg
-rur-,c 2a.,
rinISSIOn
7\, - Fcj!,e
Cs fleet i ng
7
m dcwrr there aII the tirie. Cver the 10 y'ears I'ue
neve r been waler there under it. Before thei-e i"re;;
breaL in it, it's rio longer a b,etland that's serving a function s.o as soonas )ou pul i:-, p.:.tentiaIIv a barrier through there, that kiIIs that uetland
if .1 '"'s i ilC feet. wide they would say end you put in a 3 foot strip, that
contaiirinales the wetland. The uretland basically doesn't function properIl,
arii'n.'re. ihai's what the experts have told us and I guess I don't want Lo
exp).r,r: tl-,i:- any further but Lhat's my understanding, Brian, questiorr,.--^
Eat:li: li:,. J agree with Joan's comments for the rrost part. I gueus l'"r
beei-, o -i t.1-,: conrriigsion Iong enough to, unfortunately at least f ronr the'apilicant': perspective, that a boardwalk is elevated so the argurrent
th-.t . . .";: -,'i g:o!.r I think is diminished by the fact that we're aIl assun,irr3tl-,iL r!'= cl.-,,ated. There's a free flow of water underneath it arrC l't-':.
a-. lr. -a
I lt l.t-t--;r : There's rrever been any water uncier that area there. l 'i,t Ii "*<n;me j.s Dick Herr, I live right nex! door to the
I'
Eor-Li .. lil !:.:,: ds g,oirrg out there tc the d.:,ck. -l'he>' were just la>'i t's. cr, "- i-,e
r,rl. It'- :'.:'- -, lr:: f lol,rir.:: Bater, I rr'ean, I think this wl-,ole t!,ir,g iigrttiri iir, j cf ;.EE.e::ir,e. I've lived th+re 1O ye; r's. Our whole
;, : i ; ":. :. r' l',; : 'l l.-: : i jt-LIe slrip of proper!y. New neighborhoods hava comeln::.1 ;:-,i lrr l', c':.:ks for their neighborhood. A sand beach. PeoFIe are
i:-j1j:r,; lrcu=-,c: 5.: r3s: the Iake from us puttins in 25 foot beach ar:.: forpri.,'-; . e r.i:!r-:-,ce: Li.'ve goL a little bit of gravel there to get to ou)-ic:i ,.i'- r',.,JL !:t"-ir-,; our shoes muddy to get into our boat. I thinli it'sg:'-1-l-.; ;..::,, c.r)'n assarrine to ask us Lo spend aIl kjnds of money buyi rrg
C-:1.' .: c: t: l.-.. d;ri'r c;-, greveJ. or raise above the gravel or take thetlri:,9.... -
Co:rra'l:
Bri.an.
li-,; rrks. f o': ;'our comnrents . tJe had a publ ic discussion ear I ier .
Bstzll: -''rLjst out of curiousity based on
purposes cf clarificaLion, is the permj.t
A t^,,€tland? Lihere is the Class A wetland
Ann, for my
9oin9 OVer a
Batzli: So the dock section, regardless of r.rhether there's flowing or notflowing Hater is stiLl considered a Class A r.retland?
Olsen: By vegetalion, ),/es. It would be
come back as wetland vegetation.
alloued to come back. It t^rould
tsatijj: fen't it tytricalIy...for a Class A uJetland though that there's
open i,{e tei- ?
Ol:en: I'-'s. j.lsL the type of vegetation. Again there's the three. The
Ecj.I:, the r+ater and vegelation. TypicaIIy uhat's adjacent to the open
wa*,c-r is usually. . .
that conrment Jo
then , is it not
then?
Olsen: If you recall, r.lhat ble did ulas to use the aerials before any
developrrent had occurred there where there was vegetation. It was a Class
A wetland alI along that strip.
PIa.n-,1:;=-
:lrn€ li,Cor,missiorr Heet i ng
r-:'!'- FeJ- c
of clarif icaLion.
thanks. t"Je had the, I'll give you another charrce but I'r,
some continuity up here. Thanks Chris. Comments gte,,:.
po i n'-
tryir:.J to
Enr;-,irrgs: t,lelI, I was lookirrg for the beachlot ordinance
be;r' , l,:ve i'ou been putting boats in over this area into
c:r
keep
here. Ycu
the Iake?
haire r, 't
Chr j.., 5nE:l: No, Canoes. You know, and rowboats. Not pouer boats.
Ckay, fine. That was what I was wondering abouL. I've got just
cf co::rr,ents arrd f guess that would be that what the DNR has to sa),:r;-:.'- bui ure define what's a wetland. The City define: iL. t.t?,\,e,: r."h;t r,i1l Le dorre to wetLands. Our ordinance is more stric.tiiJn regulations so what they have to say is of course cf irrtei-e-:t:.'i ,:::.terri rrat:'.,e cf what we Co. l^le've always requireo ele ";l-eC; '-hr.:,.,elr wetlands in this situation Nhere you're gettir,g f i- oirr thej ;..,e +-o g'i aver a uretlarrd Lo get to the lake. In every ca:e: i'r:.:.; l-r..re we've required boardwalks in th6t situaLion. ELeva.,eJs.. i a.9ree conrplete).y t..ith Ladd, If there's sonnethi ng, ure'..,e
r':;' ;bcut havin3 a graveI path before and I don't feel Iit.: j.,,=
,r, :ll to punish, I'm not interested in punishirrg you pecFl. fcr
- -:.:- ii,i 1". "-; .lo;::i there by making you remove them jus! to hare )..,, dc
l : - r '. cr vot€, on thi.s tonight , f have to go f or the elevatec.l
i.ac 3,.8.r tl-,at's what we've always done in the past and i guare;,tee
gl-,L,or= to the other side may be here asking to pu1- rt-rcl..s
:rr l'-.i;+eI ks r"rhen ure've already, or someone else is gcing t
rre I
've granted bcardr,ralks and you'v€ granted rock=,it nray be a situation uhere the thing to do here
and find ou! if a rock path is just as gc,od.
'd b: for it. For leaving it. BuL if I have to vcte orr
rro choice but to foLlow the staff's recommendation.
crushedtaI king
o
l!e
, I have
, fr Ci1,
.1i
YCU
ai
r,iO n y
it ie,
Cor'r:,1 : J: Anrr, whaL do you think? t^Jhat do you uJant to do in terrns of . . .
OLsen: N=-ll I can get documentation, if you would like, from the DNR andthe Fish and tlildlife Service and the Corps. That uill take some tinie. Iguess it's up to the applicant what they would like to do but no matter
what I'LI look into it.
At,r-ens: tJeIl I think what the DNR said was, they were comparingrock walkways with boards that b,ere on the ground, They ..Jeren'tal,out elevateC boardr,ralks versus crushed rock walkr,tays. You Here
c:oirrparing.,,
Conrad: tJell tell me, you're comfortabl.e with, we've got a policy outthere requiring boardwalks. Now Mr. Engel is telling us that DNR is sayingthat rocks are just as good or maybe better than a boardwal k. That'sincorrsietent with what I've been told in the past but that's just hearsayor tha!'s just, nraybe not hearsay but that's what the experts have told us
wherr ,.r..'ve asked a sub ject. So I guess I'm curious about hour much we wantto challengie r"hat r^re've hea.rd in the past.
-:iu n€ :0,C;:rrri ssi o rr l.leeting
I oco - Pa3€ 9
i,a -,4 .
C.:,,-,C poirrt. Any other comrnents here? Chris, do you want Lo say
Ch:is. Er,gsl: Hell again, I'd ask to reiterate ()ne point on this, f r,ear,:hi: Ci::::sion cf elevated boardwalk is just arnusing to me because th-jg:nil+ier: jr, here, nentjons that alL the time that he's been arourrd or s.at
.::-r th3 c'-.i:,i,i:;icn that they've discussed elevated boardwalks. I've h'"::'-i
€ver)' on. of you talk about elevated boardi^ralks. This process has beer,'goi ng orr f or over a year . I have read every document that you Peopl.e l-,:ve
l.rr i tt-err . I have not seen the word elevated boardwal k. Now aI I of a er:dde r,
boorr, You attrch yourself to a uord that fits the cause. Eleveted
L.oar cl,.: I i.. . i'J:, , if it was such a concrete issue to this commission of an
:1.:i:'-e '' l:..:.;.Ju:aIk I subr,ii to you that you would have put it in thes+
;1.:ci-:::.-:.,'-:., L,,rt r';r. !t's an issue thqt aeII, it's some r{ay that He c.-.;, n:1.*
t
3-::l-,c^ ".:- thir.k i^e can nrake it r ight . How hish elev:tzdl ?j.,:l-. .,-,tl : l^,alf aL,< ve the :ciI? tl\at are x., gr-,!:.: '-: !..i :I'-:
'' :,'f ; tct-aI, f mean H:'. Herr hes gc,t a pcint. f n::::-, i:i
..ast-irrg t aliF.ry€)-s.' dollars for monthe over $150.OC t;crth r'f r;':'.
:in; tr.oct us gigO.CC to pull it out ar,d it's all that we
th= ccn,riri:,:,ion end the CounciL th;t we lla rrt a Fath. Eig cle:1 .
i-'
3U
Is
i r-,
d:jen we.'re talking about, we're going to argue ol'er
. ile're g.,ing to sperrd iiore rironey of the n'Jn'e, f :..laral.j :i. Ue're going +.o 9et more testinrony, I que:,ti,:.'i
: Co,r'i r-hi nk you shcJLll6.
','.a = :'t ei!he:-.
ic-:'..:f : I tl-ir.L tr,at's a :-eal ingane con,rrent that you just n,ade. l.le'r€
r',.-r . ir'y ir''g '-:, d: sorn= proteciing of the environmenL and you're teLling us.,..':': r-.:,'-: r,': t-3,.:Fai 6r fiioney which is real , thanks for your cornn,errts. i
eJ - :rsr- dt: itrJ,=.
But he 's f r om t he Di.lR .Nre. f::l-r
Dick l-icr-r': That's wha! the DNR said.
Conradr That's good -
somebcC/ thet wants to
keep talking to the DNR and you foundyou but u,e do have our own ordinance.
Pat Lynch has been to this property.
have been there. You don't even know
You can
ta] k to
M:'s. Herr: He's been there.LucilIe Strauss. None of you
ue're talking about.
Has
urhat
Conr a,.i : I heve ,
llrs. H€rr: Yeah, you have.
Emn i rrg! : Did Pat
I 'd I i tre to knorr .itl '.h= DNR ont this.
Lynch say
ild likethat. I
we uJere being irresponsible because if he did,
to follour up on that. I think we shoulC follow-
think Pat Lynch should come here and talk to usuP ti
abqu
Jl: -re 10,
Con ir,i ss i o rr Meeting
7990 - Page 10
Ol.s.e:r: Okay
PrcPerty.
Conrad: Is there a n,otion?
Arrd Cei I 9trauss has been there. [^Je've gurveyed the
L;; l,:Irgl:
because f l,lell I wonder if they're interested in our looking into it'rr inte;ested irr our )ooking into it but maybe nobidy els:
Eat:li : :-r.- I L no. r agree with the applicant's earlier comment that ou;-f irst ccncern is urith the wetland and r don't agree with his last co::,:,re:-,1!becau'-=..' r Lhirrk that was contradictory to uhat he said earlier but if our-concern is for the wetland, r think t^re should look into it. rf the gr-ave Ipaii', i: a ';i:1. Ie aI'.':r'nar-ive, we shourd know about it before r^re rnake .-her,
:;::.1 :S, ,C:,a,.OC to tal.e it out if it,s no! harmirrg the wetland.
a::l
-)
ra
:" . Tl-.a+-': Lh3 i:o->, I feel . I ,C ]ike to, but I dorr ,t krro..l . jf+-c' \,c,te cn jt , !!,e cari but I'd Iike to table it. Get Fat L;.r-rcl-,.:l !i io u. about this kind of a thing. The other thing thar.abc,ut r.:h;t he's s,aying is that epparently there's never been,i;, r.,hich we've required elevated boardwalks in Lha pas.t. tlrer ee:' an.j here they're saying that there's never been wate :- theref.' ., .tb-t.:r:i:l period of time.That may be relevant and it $tay rt.L,
'r .-...,^J
Sai:l i :dcn't remenrber puLt.i.n9 in athat there was always hlater.
boardwal k over a C:;
u'-!€r ;-:'t,c dcrre it over dry, .areas.
Y:,. !. r:cur nr,,ck) areas.
Ci-,r'i: I:r9:l: iie're willing to wait.
Dic,[i He;'r: I cou].d certainly see an elevated walkulay if water uas paesing.It's bl;ilt up and then put rocks on it. you're changing it. The only
"rater that wculd come in is stronger waves and then wash right back outagain. There isn't anythins passing under this. The only time there'sstarrding r,rater is when Lotus Creek, there's a creek behind my house isflowing real strong and the lake is in excess...
Emrnings: How about right now? Is your lake back up?than I've ever seen it. How about Lotus?
Mi nnewashta 's hi sher
Conr6d: Yeah, it's not 6s high as it's ever been but it's...
Di.l l':..rr: I+-'s gotLen over our dock on that 12 inch rail a coupLe yesrsaJ:: ar',.1 : *. goL over most people's, a lot of people's docks and 2 dar.. laleyr,:itl-r Ll',e egress of the creek, it r^ras back to i!'s normal Ievel. .
Enrnri;,gs: lJhat abou! righ! now? Things are pretty high right now. Uhat
a.!-, ri,'- r i _qht noui?
Connissicn Meet i ng
11
,it's: ri,/ recollect ion too. That everything t"le've hearC i
/'ve got somebody who apparently is knowledgeable iri'ri I'
Lli,;ri: frE: : -; :
!'rr r! :i,9sr.
Corrrad: B
YL^ :--..-I lrc ,l,.5:,uiyou br ea [.it uiti'r sc
gPong€.
t Ilight r,cw there's urater is coming up on the shcreline aLrut (
: rnearr abou! 2 feet into the shoreline.
i'- up to this area uhere you've got this rock path?
see the issue is not really water. It's not a water issue.preserving that wetland. To let the wetland survive and orice
as the experts have said, that once you break it, you break
hir,g that- kills the vegetation then you no Ionger have Lhat
ut
:fit,
:
t
t
F3r
i,
L.::'! -,t
t-
I EJre thi.:-,k they shouLC L.e cut here. If they';'e telli:-,g u=,ti,iigs, I'J sule Iike to t.alk to maybe tha! pe:-son'e
g:.'". If i^e 're ta.Lking to one person anC somebody el:': is
tl-;r- , I thir,k uLe neeJ a superviscr to help in the ,iiepu'.:.
; l:ir,g th:t o:-re persorr here, I think we rreed sorre gocd
'J=?
lhat ,re could get sonrebody' out here at Lhe ire xt'
Cls:r -'! l '.r)'. SJre-
p€ i' :.,
gi 6\,
1i.ir,o1-€ 1-h::t the Planning Comnrission table !his wetland alteration.Jin; mcre teeti."norry by the appropriate people on whethe): theh j.s the proper alternative to an elevated boardwalk.
Ei.:.i -rge : 3:cond .
Batzli moved, Emmings seconded to tabLe l.letl.and Alteration Permit $89-1 forthe Lotus Lake Betterment Association to get more testimony regarding agravel path versus an elevated boardwalk. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
Conrad: 9.o that r^rill more than likely come back in 2 weeks but we'IInotify you and Iet you know.
Olse n: July 18th.
Em;.-rings: An.J I guess I r.lould say too to these applicants so they don't
hav.: f:lse hcpes, it may uJell be that if Pat Lynch comes in here or someone-
fr,rr'r DNR 6rrd says that a rock path is equivalent, the City may HeIl decideto 9c wi!!r eievated boardwalks in situations anyway.
Chris Errgel: Thank you.
h0h0trs@TA
DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES
HETRO REGION I{ATERS - 12OO I.IARNER ROAD, ST
(
1990
. PAUL, MN 55106
PHONE r{o. 296-7523 FILE NO.
iluly 12, 1990
l,ls . Jo
City o
690 Co
C han ha
0l sen
hanhassen
er Dr i ve
n, MN 553i7
Annfc
ui t
sse
Dear I'ls, 0l sen :
RE: I{ETLANDS REGULATION
I've received and revised the minutes of the June 20, l99O Planning
Commission meeting regarding wetland alteration at Lotus Lake. Aiyou know, i have been involved in the wetland filI issue with theCity, Lotus Lake Betterment Association, Mr. Steve Frost, and Mr.
Robert Pfankuch since ,lanuary, 1989. The Department has come to
agreement with the Iandowners as to reasonabie restoration thatfulfills DNR requirernents, although the restoration agreed upon has
not yet been compl eted.
In reviewing the meeting minutes, I found the issues being
considered both assorted and somewhat confusing, to the degree thaiI will not attempt to address them all in writing. I'm inclined to
accept your offer to attend the August I meeting and share the Dl'lR
perspective with you and the Cormission, as it appears you may be
receiving mixed signals. Uetland regulation and jurisdiction istypical1y administered by federal , state, and Iocal units ofgovernment. I'lot always are the goals and regulations of all
governing bodies compatibl e.
I will be present at the August 1 meeting prepared totiscuss ourrole in shoreland regulation, and to discuss the pros and cons of
assorted water access options. Until that time, I'm lncl uding withthis letter several copies of a DNR document which briefly explainsour role. Please distribute these to the Conmission members for
review so that they can present any questions they may have.
AN EOUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
STATE OF
As you are aware, I no longer work with the Carver County area, but
am committed to seeing this issue resolved to the satisfaction of
a1 1 parties involved. I trust many of the issues and questions can
be once and for all resolved in the very near future, and am anxious
to assist in any capacity I can. I look forward to seeing you on
the 1st. If you have questions or require additional infornation
prior to that, please Iet me know.
ff,Jpe
iloAnn 0l sen
July 12, 1990
Page Two
Area Hydrol ogi st
P1125:kap
Encl osure
cc: Steve Frost
Bob Pfankuch
Dr. Charl es Hirt
*
I I I
rYORr IHATCAil 8E DOiE WII}IOT'T
A PROIECIED MIE]RS PE]RMT
&ryFolddfru.iedb3bCt ortuy trgh- r{tr!.r Errk (ClWt rdi.l, aleit the o|.! ,orEa, a qc.don ol Fladsd u.r.rt a urrtrri, b el,a to di" ,"glt"r-V prra.nc,
ca drc Dqmgr oa trarrrd REru j- ht .. ; ;.e;f,;;ffiFt_ rr+ern , "nolad slthb bgr o*trrd ft. a rfid.r Ftod Jr-Gf-,r-Ji# ,p"r, t.
!*=11lls oY | -Ill[d'|y h| pdr "i.," r,.,n
"r
l|s#&- t.,,F,oat.4,qr,i. b Fdqrfrna| terrtd. ftr rrmne+ th: CIW t the daorbr{ thr b d 0: Hr ol rfrr drrd Fr rwrrtr rrd hrry, t: fri ifu q".rg-da&t d ttp urml rrrlrs pod."
SdtE pl.cb url ld rq&rs pr'r{r tun 0E Dqltlgr o,lhrd Bsrqlca. I c.rirrtold[d!_c rd. tld.,crler, lol td!. d guail;a"nd d;'d; a rhe U.S.9"f .d.hg|l* lo, rrrq*. pil{t ta f,." r,"|td.Eilillilo_ t"* AFa.ctsd r-t rd udht l bd lE !€er. ir;t t-r'1,"-Ctp;""r a ff _fne nree
TL Ibr.!.tb h ifl tlod.r. 6.. E t aI ... t .b.. itsEEl oa (b.h) rtE ordii.r, hutrr.. .{t lttaa . Dioa..a.d r*n FlrL Hqir, -, -n de lEhl o, (aon) rtE
orithry t|ltl if.r [tt L ialct b.??.ad tlE t] tqt rt o, tmalrEo],. zo.ina.uthorily,
Coocr lh. lo.{ rall. .u[odr, tq rI tlqllttE fr, llld do.c hdud ot th. o.dii.., hithr ar oait.
a a
d!, qr€ddt ol a qltdnka taralcr qur&nd,."f.r d |tp Dnm Proa€ted Wats!m+ are avelbUe hr prtlc tlpecdor at .t DNRrcgkrEl rd arc. o0cet, local Sdl.d Wat€r
Ti... ,.or..t i,il Ea ttq.l.. Frraa. ,ra ft DNi r.lridcd rf hca qditi * ..r
E!9l!Gl mmnr
B..cf 3..d Bbil.r.
. Clean. Irrcrgan! t.rd or g'!wl trce ol pollut nb .nd nutrients.
' &Tffi 'ffi,*J[:l?#H;?t'**3ffi iggiliashorc ;;ne'harr rhe ror wd* {whrch'r'e, rs
:5tiHi"ffi,ffffil .nd zonirBrofliciak'siw-n ar teasr 7 days prior norce.
' IffiXil"g,3f fl:,lfilruff.T;:*ied o'*. .r ..ir. roc.rroo. nor cr.c.drns etr. cLoiror
loct Xlprep (Ior rlore ,roa.cdo.,. t{.turd rocl d y. at Lad 12 hclr.3 d.nErer o brer.. No llrotc t En 5 tcel r.6te]urard ol lhc Ordimru Ht[ War", ur,l
: irffi ;ffiHff.t#.ffi ?1 I**,:TtiI:li " *"'*
'5',€ 6
'rot
! poarcd [6h spau,ning a]en, d.ignated tout she.m, nllr along lhe +oaes ol Lak€supcnor.
Sar..r! Wltl . Ur.t.r.ted Leo fter i Sqtrr illlo (!.2OO rcro|.'l'lo pc.mit b rcqulrcd to construcl a bridge or .rt*.t, o. roitt o. er-roriif,] U"a of "
p.o,".r.a
'piffffipffi g}*ffi!*ffi*.*lriituffi*
- r ne Foret t f Dol tDpouid wd6 by d.mhing the watercoursc.- th. r.,arrtorrrlc b not an ottaa& a;rgruta r;;i;;;; -'*
De0rb Xcord
. t{o F n{t b lEqdIrd b rrmorrc dctrrds[,'-il .';;Z'o,;;U m! tfl fr"k';H.*"ffii*mf;lol's 't ftc odsrnd
Xrpelr ol Prb0c Drdre3e Sprerr'|&ffiSl:rs#5iemr ' hwtullv esr'ablished publrc drarn ee s!,srem (Judkr.t Drch,
iX8iffi"iidfr!,with hthe
detnidon set todh ln Mlnnesotr sl,rtutes, secdon ro6A.zot,
- Ihe repah d€ not rllect slonificrnt ft5h and wiHltte h.bltit or protected ,reqetadon (erch asst te or ,edenl wiHlitc manfuirrnr areas, der,gr.r"d ;;bil ;;-ioii fir...,
"r..1S.rro.d Docfr erd F|ordrf glrrcrrro
: kT94 hq ,.,.rt or.a *aqrC bair (belore wtnre, lreeze-uDl.
: $,*'mflfl ffi til*,rmf f.Sffi# t{-bvnneLme'-{'nrzca mea,s
. wU noa Includ. fuel handling or-seu/lge ,acilltet.. ts not used or lntended lo be used loihurun hablta[on, as a boathouse or as a madna.. Alors lor ltec lbr, ol water bene.th lt
P_."-.n.rt Doctr (or lrtcr orlyf. Dock ts a slngle t!g!r shl&tur€ not mor€ than 6 feel wtd€..lxes not excced 5{) leet in length. o, ertend into *atJi fiot s rrore thln 4 fe€t deep, whkhew,.llo-iiqe th.n o.l€ dock pcr wate ronl k,l.
: yJ ly *b*1..?9SFdon o. cr€.te a ur.ter satcty haz.rd.. Jre l! rEt a po6lcd fish soarl,lrlno area. Wi[ noa tnclid. luel h.nd]ng or-sewaqe lacilirts. ts nol used or lnlerded lo be used l(x human habllation, as a boathouse, o. as a madna.. A[on s lor fi"e lh, ol rryale, beneath it
tHfi $, -qffiffi..iff+1'"* f,"'xi1HlffiJ,'ilHse or a dock on u,ood pirinss ,r
. . .Coat. lo oth.. atda
SaFd]t/rncota
Derlndltc, ferd Rasore
tlvtim d tlfiEB
qtt€watbl oficcr c tlp
taat6s ba
rpt toEltt
O{w tordhrr}tt hil I-r) brErhstrta .l,.dctbt.rtandr [i-Ed
ol Ol{U
t !.Crrhtar.Er --.rarl lar55lllCr tXrtor
lnrro. Wrt.r L.rl*
trd rqudh r.lgrl.lboS.dg6 naco.d lou
Iwd
qst!.t i-Lll
Audrq ! offce.
CcrgvatorD*n dcca dd the Cqtliv
,t
United States Department of the Interior
!lrrt- -ffi-
--
FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE
sr. PAUL PTELD omCE (ES)l0 Park Squuc Court,tOO Slbhv Strcct
St. Paul, ltl.odoota 55101 -
-
ra
tlr* IEPLI REFER m
SPFO
Ju'ly 16, 1990
Ie appreciate this opportunity to provide lnforoation for your planning
purposes. If re can be of further assistance, p'lease contact this office
di rectly.
Slncere'ly,
James L. Snith
Acting Field S up I SOr
cc: Ted Rockwell, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, St. Paul
ICC : O,rT Ce udc-t z-
Prl /54otez-rzr'
P,cu t- RR-4+os E
l{r. Don Chmi el , l,layor
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter
Chanhassen, ilinnesota 55317
Dear l,lr. Chmi el :
This letter responds to a inquiry for your planning staff regarding
reconnendations for access across vetlands and shallow rater habitats to boat
docks and rel ated facilities.
There are three basic methods for crossing such sites, and these include
boardwalks supported on piles, floating boardwalks, and gravel filled pads or
berms. 0f these, the method most preferred is the boardra'l k on piles. llhile
this method will partially shade-out dense vegetation underneath, the area
covered is still providing basic wetland values and it does not adversely
affect the hydrology at the site. Floating boardwalks completely eliminate
vegetation underneath and cause the loss of related wetland values, but do not
impact other vetland values such as storrn rater storage and nutrient
assimilation. Further, floating boardwalks do not normally alter the
hydrol ogy at a site.
llal kways or other accesses constructed of gravel , sand, or earthen fi l'l to
make a pad that remains dry and free of wetland vegetation ls the least
desirable method. The wetland values associated rith the area covered by thefill are completely lost, and such structures can alter the hydrol ogy of the
slte and thus adversely impact adJacent yetlands and yaters.
CITY OF
EHINHISSEI'I
PC DATE: 5-20-90- -
CC DATE: 7 -9-9O
CASE *: 89-1 wAP
JO:v
STAFF REPORT
Fz
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=(LL
B
UJha
fatlaDd lltcratloa peErit for a path/fal}ray
tbrougb a Claas I totlaDal oD Lotua Lat€
Outlot A, Colorl.al crov€ at lrotus LaDe
PROPOSAL:
IOCATION!
APPIJICAIIT:Chris Ergel
7016 Aardy EooI Road
ChaDhassea, l{t{ 5531?
PRESENE ZONING:
AATACENT ZOIIING IND TITID I'88!ll - Iptus tatsI - RgF, aiDgle Fauily
B - nstr, 8lDgle Prrilyf - REle AlDglo ptrily
rATER IND SETER!
PEYSICAL CEARICTERIATICA :
lvai1.b16 to the E loporty
Ibe site ig aa outlot rised as ar€creatioDal beachlot for theDeighlorhood. CurreDtly thereis fiU up to tho opeD yator of
IJotu3 lJaks contaiDiDg rock.
R.sialertl.al Loy DeDsity2OOO IJAND UAE PLAN:
RaF, 8iDg1e faDlly
chris Engel wetland Alteration Pernit
June 20, 1990
Page 2
BACKGROUND
A uetland area adjacent to Iotus rake sas filled in the early
sun]0er of 1988 along three properties (Frost, Pfankuch and
recreational beachlot). while the property was being filled, staff
eras contacted by a resident questioning rrhether this was approved.Staff fron the Planning and Engineering Departments went out to thesite to deternine exactly what was taking place. The staff thatvisited the site stated to the applicant that what they were doing
required a grading pernit and that any further activity on the site
was not perrnitted until a grading pernit was obtained. Thecontractor filling the site cane to city HaIl and filled out anapplication for a grading pernit. The Planning Department againvisited the site to detennine if a wetland existed. Staff saw that
wetland vegetation had existed and that a uetland alteration pernit
was required. Staff contacted the applicants and stated that what
was occurring rrras not pennitted without a wetland alterationpernit.
Staff visited the site vith PauI Burke of the Fish and wildlife
Service who provided a report on the site dated June 30, 1988.After several contacts with the applicants, an application wasfiled for a wetland alteration perrnit by Ur. Frost and llr. Pfankuch
on January !2, 1989. The application for the Pfankuch and Frostlretland alteration pernit was brought before the Planning
Conmission on February 15, 1989. The Planning Conmission tabledaction until it could be clarified what actually occurred betweenthe applicants and staff and to aIIo!, tine for the Lotus Lake
Bettennent Association (recreational beachlot) to be included inthe wetland alteration pernit application since it became apparentthat the rretland on their property was also filled.
Staff was in contact with the Fish and Wildlife, Corps of Engineersand the Department of Natural Resources at the beginning of thisprocess. The DNR responded that the fill was in viotation ofMinnesota Rules 5115.0190 and that any pernit to fill belo!, theordinary high water nark rrould be denied. Pat Lynch of the DNRstated that any fill below the ordinary high vater mark would berequired to be renoved and the area restored. Since the D}{R lrasinvolved, staff felt that we should work with the DNR and the Fish
and Wildlife Service to provide a plan agreeable to aLl regulatoryparties as to the amount of fiII area that needed to be renoved and
how much of the lvetland should be restored. The City and the DNRare the two agencies which have jurisdiction over the rretland. The
DNRrs jurisdiction ends at the OHWI,! rrhile the the Cityrs controlextends over the entire lretland. The Fish and Wildlife Service nasused as a resource. The DNR has required the property orrners torenove the fill up to the ordinary high uater nark by Uay 1, 1990.The DNR has staked out the OHVII,I where the applicants have to reDovethe fiLl.
Chris Engel Wetland Alteration Pernit
June 20, 1990
Page 3
3.
OD February 2L, L99o, tbe PIaDDiDg conDission reviared tbe yat1aDdtalteratlon pemit for flIl yitbla a uetlaDd adjaceat to Lotus Lake
oD tha aubJact site. Tb€ PIaaDiDg conniesLoD rocoEneDded approvalof the pernit ritb staffrs coudltl.oas, .ddiDg to coaditioD No. 1tbat the fill ylU aeed to be reuoved by tuDa 15, 1990. ThePlaDrlDg connissioa also add6d coDditioD Xo. 5 that Btates theapplicaDt ylll have to gubnit and receive approval for a grading
and erosioa coltrol plaa prior to alry uorh being dotr. oD thi site.
OD Uarch 12, 1990, tbe city CouDciI also approved the setlaadalteration peruit vlth tbe cotratLtioDs fron the plaDDlDg connisslon(AttachneDt 11). lrbe couditl.oDs of rpproval yer6 as follors:
1. Th€ appllcant sball leDove 25t x a5r x 3or of fill neasuringfron th6 property line adJaceDt to Lotus Lrks as sbova on thefiaal plat. Ihe fill yi1l be r€Doved by JuD€ 15, 1990, usiDgtbe tytrical cross aectioD provided by the DnR.
2. ![he applicaDt Ehall be peraitted on6 boardralk through tberestored retlaDd to provid€ access to tbe dock.
5
Ary purlrlo loosestrifo tbat returas shall bo lDrediatolyreDovod as rocoDneDdeA by tbe Fish atta tlldllfe sernicillaaual, :ispread, IDpact aDal CoDtrol of ltrlroao Ioosestrife LDNortl UarLca r€tlaDalsn.
Prlor to aDy uork beilg done on the site, tbe applicaut ahallsubDit for clty staff approval a gradirg aDd erogioa coDtrolpIan.
ANALYS IS
Condition No. 2 of the wetland alteration permit approval statedthat the applicant shall be pernitted one boardwalk through therestored wetland to provide access to the dock. The applicant isrequesting to maintain a { I wide by 42 t long rock -walkray tomaintain access to the dock rather than removing all of the rockand installing a boardwalk through the restored wetland.
The applicant has been working closely with the DNR in removingfill below the ordinary high water nark. In speaking with pat
Lynch fron the DNR, the applicant was told that the DNR wouLd notbe opposed to the proposal to leave in place a gravel access strip5r wide and extending no further wateruard than the existing fillarea in order to allow access area to the association dock.- pat
Lynch further stated that in order to retain the access strip tothe dock, the applicant must also secure approval from the City of
t.
The ar6a of renoved.fill sball be allosed to restore to aDatural state.
chris Enge1 wetland Alteration Pernit
June 20, 1990
Page 4
Chanhassen Riley-Purgatory-BIuff(AttachDent #2).
Creek watershed District
In the past, the City has consistentLy recoDmended that access to
a dock or open water through a lretland be achieved by a boardwalk
versus clearing rretland vegetation and filling a path area. TheCityts position on requiring boardwalks rras the result of workingwith the Fish and Wild]ife Service, Corps of Engineers and DNR indeternining the best way to provide access through wetlands rhich
would have the Least amount of alteration, short and Long tern, tothe wetland. Therefore, staff was sonewhat surprised rrhen the DNR
stated that they rrould have no objection to a rock pathway throughan area that will be a restored wetland. In speaking with CeiI
Strauss fron the DNR, it rras stated that the DNR prefers boardwalks
as neans of access to open water through a lretland versus fiIIing.
What is different with this case is that the filling has already
occurred within the rretland. The applicant is proposing to not
remove a 4 i uide by 421 long strip of rock and altow it to bernaintained to serve as access to the dock and nater. Staff
understands that this is an existing situation and that it wiIIresult in additional cost for the applicant to have to renove the
4 r uide by 42t long strip of rock in addition to the other areathat has to be renoved and then to have to install a boardwalk.Staff sti1l strongly feels that ye need to support the instatlationof a boardwalk to be consistent with past practices and in terns ofwetland preservation, the boardwalk is the best neans of accessuith the least inpact to the rretland. Therefore, staff nust
recomnend that all the illegal fiII be rernoved and that if theapplicant wishes to naintain access to the dock and open rdater thata boardwalk be installed. Should the Planning Connission/CityCouncil wish to al1ow the 4r wide by 421 long rock t alkhray torenain, staff is recomrnending that it be conditioned upon approvalof those exact diroensions and that the path cannot be widened or
lengthened without an additional wetland alteration pernit.
RECOUI,TETDATIOII
Staff recomends that the Planning Connission adopt the followingtootion:
rrThe Planning Cornnission recommends deniat of the rretlandalteration perEit request to allow a 4i uide by 42t longcrushed rock path through the Class A wetland adj acent toIotus Lake. ri
Chris Engel wetland Atteration Permit
June 20, 1990
Page 5
ATTACHMENTS
1. City Council minutes dated }Iarch 12, 1990 and letter to
appl icant .2. L,etter from DNR dated Uay 2L, L99O.
3 . DNR regulatj.ons.4. Application.5. Site plan.
l.^^J^t) lJilYtO "L4-rV (Or.r-nOrl lwt*'ux-a
Oourcilran blt tro\red, t{a1or Ctrr,ie1 -condteil to table the ke.Irrdnar}, plat toBubilivicb 29.9 acres for r€ter ard lEanna Brardt for firrtlE[ study d t]E aclesssltuation. Alt voted in f,avor exoept 6r:rrlh'an Johrcon rtro oppoied ard thetotisr ctried rrith a vote of rl to 1.
lElor Grtriel: Gr-w, with tlre discrrssions t}at Etve had, ean ]ou see if 1ou canpru sotethirg togetber so LE carl harre ecrethirg? Do yru harre-a tlrrefrar'! ttntyur I re goirg to rEedl?
l
ery lErren: lE'Ll. b tnrd pessedl to g€t tt back at the rcxt ourcil. r rDuld
EUr the...
lhlor Gr.del.:
Gry tlarren:
r+tor crriel:
c.arlusisrs.
te first OurElI reetlng tn Aprtl ls *rat :Du.re Ea:'lrq?
Yeab. eprtl 9th.
Okay, rerll hing thls back an tprtl 9th ulth lnpefirlly acre
Ihank 1ou for cordrg. Afrreciat€ lt.
IIEITA}D ALTERATION PERI'1IT REQUEST. 7gg7 CHEYETDIE IRAIL, CIARI,ES HIRT , to?us taKE
BEEIER{BII ASSGIATIOII.
Jo }tvl Olssr: the propertlr ls leated gl t tus f,.ke. ttE fopert], ls l of 3that filledl a portion of the rEtrard last...vlttprrt first reoeivlri r retlantalteration pnr,it. r& rEnt througtr the lxeess wlth the corps of 6ngfureers uratlE DilR to veriQ e:.actl], rtrat the DilR rrant€d to have reroved slye it rrras lnvlolation of tle Dm regurations also. rhe DttR has rgre€d wlth tJle.pricrrt torerorre a certaln area of fill thatrs strorm ln the heavler dark area. -itat tteCiE staff did ras go back tluolsh. t}e
-
hfstor]' to try to deterrdne exactly r*erettE edge of t}e retlard ms to begin rrith ard* to regrire the applicant to re$o\re
3n qF fiu t},at ..s praced Lltegally on t}e etrarrit. so r€ iie recom,enaingbqprd Ltrat the DUR proposed for thar, to fill arrt lnsted of a 25 r 36 x 3s f;otarea, rE are recq<tenilirg that it be a 25 t 45 fot in depth area to be rerrovd.Ile pl""lirs ccrrrt issior recsrterdd approrral of tlre stafi reccrnerrtatlm addirqt]tat it had to be re'orred by J.rE 15, fggS ant that t]te apUcant, ddGcordltlon 5 that the aplicant bas to sutrdt tln plans foi- clty siart ipirorrarFior to any grading of thls sitc.
OrrEiLtan blt: Ird rr,ove alprorral.
orcllran tlcrl$an: Secorrl.
GrEiLran Johnson: Iihat lbout tlte otber tE lots?
P AP _OI*j lhe:rr re cgrdrq throqh_. - !t:-yt re gotrE to be seen bgr tlE pllraltng
&mdssim tlE next rveetirg. lre a-pprtcatlsrs care ln separately.' stari yrrr
be rakirg tln sare recqtrr,endatlon for tlgr,.
tA:ror CtrrJel: Olcay. Is t'here anyorc el* wlatrlq to addre$ thlg lsare?
lmn9ilran Bolt noved, ourcllrr,an ibrl$'Jr eecsded to alprove vratlard ArteratlonFelrdt 189-1 wittr the fol1mlrg corditlons:
I
34
?).
4
1. ltE al4)lieant *tall E€rr'ot e 25r x {5r , 39' of f111 rtaasuring ftcr' the
prq)erq' lirE adjacsrt to totus Iake as ahom sr tle ftnal plat. ltE ftI1
will be rsr.oved bl' al'€ L5, L999. uslrq the Qplcal cosE aectlon provided
bg tlE DltR.
2. the aFplicant drall be FeErdtted oe boardmlk throryh tbe restored retLand
to prwide accesa to the dock.
3. llt= area of rgroved fill Ehalt be alloed to reatore to a rEtula1 state.
lrq, Frple loosestrife that returns shall be lrrreiliately rsrroved as
recqrrerded by the Flsh anil Wllillife Servic.e ranunl, 'rqrread, &'pact artl
Ontrol of Purple looseetrlfe ln tlorttr lterica lEtlardst.
5. Eior to an1' tork bing &ne qr tlE site, tlE 4'Ucant etrall anhrit for
citli staff alproval a grdlrE ard erosim control pI!n.
A1I \roted in favor ard ttle rotion carried.
APPROVE P[A!{S AND SPECIFICATIO}IS FM FROhTTIER IRAIL UPDAIE I}{PRfi/E/IEM PRA'M
89-Ig; AUTHORIZE ADIrERUSING FOR BIDS.
Gar], Iibrren: l$at Euld lDur Plea$rre be tt. la!,or?
t{a1or Grt iel: Ver}, Iightl}t. librve gone over this erorryh tirtes.
car]r tihrra: Plans ard speclficatlons have been prelEred as directd. A
neighborbood r€eting ras tEld February 5th rfiich E rEre .ble to dlscuss anil
re,vi6{ the p}ans in the draft forr, wlt}r the lnterested r€lghbors ttro rere able
to atterd the rreetirg. the cutroversial itgr, tlat atDears ln ttre plans is a
sidlerdalk alorg tlE aligri6rlg uhlch as directed bg Ounctl e looked at ln detailin leating it with the urderstanlint that lt Es to be brought back for
consideration as a EErt of the plan ard spec package. Orrr€nt erglneer's
estilrate for the project is about 97l..6,g9S.Sg. lftratrs without t}e e1k. tE
rfalkr{a), is estinated to be approxirtat€.].y $52,SSS.gg co8t. Ihat'E with otrr
overhead aFpI id to it. t{e've been able, Erve tak6 t}E tnpt frcr, t}e
residents ard corcerns about the Fagnitrde of the ston, am irrprorerrents t}latE Ere Iooking at in the feaslblllty Etury ard tE have ben abte to redrre that
cost b:' about $49,900.0s b!' our detail lok at the topograph:t ard srh.
Sirrdlarly, through rehabilitation atrategy erve utlllzed has algo reducd orr
serrer retrab estfuate btt lbout $63,ggg.gg. (rr tte otte! slde of the ledger, the
ro.d sections orrt there dd the solI brlngs ard erch that rE deatt wlth have
irdicatd a rEed for a llttle blt rore signlficant rod sectio an, tfle @sts
for tfp road sectlon have lrrreased. lEt btt-b lirr le that rE are close I
think to tte feasibillq' study estlr.te. A littl.e blt abore lt. Ihe elerr€nts
of the Foject that rere FoPosed for assesslng hor€ver are pcetqr close to drr
orlglnal estiFates. The itgri ls before tlE OutEtl for consldteratlm avd
aprwal for authorlzing dvertiairg for bldls.
courcll.naran DfurJer: tt. n+ror, lf I ruy st:rt on thrt orc.
r,h:Dr Gr.iel : Yes . Go arread t rsula.t
35
CITY OF
EH[NH[SEE[I
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
March 28, 1990
Dr. charles Hirt
Lotus Lake Betternent Assoc.
7007 Cheyenne Trail
Chanhassen, MN 5 5 31-7
Dear Dr. Hirt:
This is to confirm that on March 12, 1990, the city Council
approved the lretland alteration permit request for the Lotus L,ake
Bettement Association with the following conditions
The applicant shatl reDove 25t x 45t x 3or of fill neasuring
frorn the property line adjacent to Iotus Lake as shown on thefinal plat. The fill will be reEoved by June 15, 1990, usingthe typical cross section provided by the DNR.
The applicant shaII be pernitted one boardwalk through the
restored wetland to provide access to the dock.
The area of removed fill shallnatural state.
be all-owed to restore to a
Any purple loosestrife that returns shal1 be irunediately
renoved as recomnended by the Fish and wildlife service
Manual, rrSpread, Impact and Control of Purple Loosestrife in
North Anerica wetlandsrt .
Prior to any rork being done on tbe site, the applicant shallsubnit for city staff approval a grading and erosion controlplan.
Should you have any guestions, please feel free to contact me.
S incerely ,
Jo Ann OLsen
Senior Planner
Ceal Strauss
Engineering Dept.Building Dept.
1
2
3
4
5
q I
,1
Lqw wlAb€tbla*-rar
?iroHE ri3. 296-7523
STATE OF
Pat Lynch
Area Hydrol ogi
hgh0trs@TA
}EFARTMENT OF NATL:::..'.:. i'.i:S' LJL'.]ES'
ltrrRo REGION I|ATERS - 1230 IIARNER Ro/.D, ST. P*{#.'', Ittll 55106
FILE NO.
tiay 21, 1990
Dr. Char'les Hirt
7007 Cheyenne Trail
Chanhassen, tlN 55317
erel v,
Dear Dr. Hi rt:
P.E: UNAUTHORIZED FILL, V89-6J55, LOTUS.LF(E (10-6P), CARYER COUNTY
Thank you for your recent telephone ca'l j regarding the fill below
the ordinary high water elevation (oHll) of Lotus Lake.
As we discussed, I am not opposed to your proposal to leave in place
a gravel access strip S-feet wide, extending- no further raterward
',haln the existing fiil area, in order to a'llov for access to the
association dock. The remainder of the nraterial below the 0Hll nust
be removed in accordance with the 'l etter I sent you, dated December
a r oao
You also requested an extension of time to comp] ete the re9torati on
efforts. By virtue of this notice, I am extending the date PI ,higl,
restoration- is to be completed ro iluly 15, 1990. I trust this wil'l
a1 iow ample time to compl ete the project.
As you are aware, in order to retain the access s-trip to your dock,
you- must a'lso seture approval from the City of Chanhassen and the
Ril ey-Purgatory-Bl uff Creek }latershed District.
Please cal'l if you have further guestions. I'd appreciate being
contacted at leait three days prior to cornencing restoration.
L
P1166:kap
cc: JoAnn 0lsen, CitY of Chanhassen
Bob 0bermeYer, Barr Engineeri ng
Ken Harre'l] , USC0E
,9m
AN EOUAL OPPORTUNTTY ETiPLOYEh
. .-sar Y Er)
rlAY 2 3 199C
CIIY OF CHANFIASSEil
-
DUR.R J'eJiu-i'r I\
LTRCES 6rr5.0202
Talion distrid and
tions, and require-
improve fish and
egree of habitar toI not creale other
rigational obstruc-
rative orher than
,irh a roral drain-
: permhted where
rsion, or sedimen-
lurse with a tohl
applicant mav be. include:
ogy as follows:
ion;
nstream;
-egistered profes-
6115.0202 PUBLICWATERRESOURCES
537E
i#iii1i9?l: to 6tt5'0272; and alterarioos of proteded waters for mining
Strtutory Authoriq MS s 105.415
Histoq: 6 SR 53J
6TT5.0210 STRUCTURES IN PROTECTED WATERS.Subpan l. Goels. It ir rl" g:.] ol.,t" g:p"r,-.oia ;i,nir thc occupation of
L'i:Tf.:1":H.byooffshorenivigarionar-iiJrt,i;;;"ffi;*ars,;d;;h;;
Iands; a prescrve the natural character of protecred waters and thcir shorc-
*","rr,
"|ooto'oe
a balance berween the prote'ction aad utilization ofprotected
--.",. . c encourage the removal ofexisting strudures which do nor scrve lhepublrc rnreresr from the beds ofprot."r.c *ii"n ii,l" l"]il.i,, pooicablc dare.
.,^- S-rbn, 2. sgone..This pan appries ro rrr" pr"".i"nr, "iiiii",ion, ,""on.r^.-
ffl;jii"lli',il?flion' abandonment' o' remo'ar oiioiiili"tu'" itacca on or
subp. 3, precement of srrcrures not pemitted. praccmc,,t of structures shalnor be permitred where the sructure:
A. Will obslrud navigation or qeate a water safery hazard.B. will be dcrrimenral .1q significanr.fish
""a *ifaiiil habiral or pro-leoed vegeurion. Consrruoion i. pr6r,iu,:i"i'in poii"-a fiiffi*oiog "r"*.Uo"rt ous.C.
Is designed or inrended to be used for tuiaa-iaUiration or as a
D. Is designed or intende.d to include walls, a rool, or scwage facilities.
. Subp. 4. No permit rGouired. No.permir ,h"il b;;;;r; for rhe followingactlvltles, unless prohibired under su6pan j:------ 'v 'v'it-"!s
,,-"rur.xJ?o!!nstrufl' reconsruct' or inslall a scasonal dock or floating
( I ) the strucrure will not constitute a hazard to navigation or publichealrh, safety, and welfare, as Oerer-iniJ Ufil.-;ffiil;J;;
(2) rhe srrunure u,ill nor incluie fr.r-r,anariii i".iriU;(3) the structure u,ill allow rhe frec flow oi *aicr Ucneatr it; ana(4) the srructure is not used or intended ,o * ,r"A as a marina.
ur"o "ro1'# ,""1[tr#r?;ffo"tt^"t a pcrmanent dock on wood pilinss or rock
(l) fte dock is a single lineal strudurc wirl no appurtcnanc*;(2) or y onc dock is insralled p.,,rp".i"o ioi- '
(3) rhe srruourc shall nor excccd-six ie"r io Gitt oo, cxcccd 50 fccrrn tengh, or exrcnd ro a deprh gr.ar", tr,_ ioui li'ii[iiili} i, r"*;(4) the srrucrurc shall comply wirh rh; ,"qJ.i.oo of irem Asubrtems (2), (3), and (a):
lake is cquar f'}"t:ffilTrfflt 3Tl,.T
wood pilin$' the surfacc arca of fte
rake is cquar l:)#Affrili'|1trt"""?ffIfcd cribs, rrc suracc area orrhc
,:*:r.or.,.fli1T*i,fo.T[:ifi fl frtr"E,lllf *lS*:,",Y#iT,ll:and shalt.utitizc. inrermiitenrly spaced *b;;i,iA;ll; u-,i#iicrco
",rcutariono, warcr bencalh the dock_
C. To construct or rooonstrud a boat launching ramp providcd:
realigning chan-
rplicanr provides
I will adequarely
f encroachment,
ogical sysrem of
rtercounes shall' and the specific
e submission of
)f rhis pan.
I FOR OTHER
.T,ORCROSS
and 6l I5.0201
ity or acrivities
192; srructurcs,
0 to 6l 15.0222;
rotected waters,
I
I-t
;I
II
I
l
t
I
)
ns ofrcially desig-
rel excavadon will
iimenution in the
1
I)
6rr5.02lr PU
thc ordinary hig
to providc a sinl
I
I
I
5379 PUBLIC W'ATER RESOURCES 5rt5.O2II
(l) privarcrv owned ramps sha, nor exceed 12 feer in widrh, andcxlend morc rhan leD fecl beyo.nd.rhj ori-ina.y iiiiil-",.', _ark or into warerm-ore. rhan. four feer in deprh. which."", ii lii] di&r;;;.'il;;il. ;il; :;tcss, ancl placemenr of uo to 6ve cubic yards oiciii;J;[ gravel, clcan sand,or small srone shau be airowed ,,. ;;a;r';;;;ii.-;;;;fil* or."intain useof thc ramp.
(2) publiclv owned qmpg shall not exceed 24 feer in widrh andgx-tcnd more_than 20 feeiwatcrward ;f;;h;r;i;;;;;"'*ircr morc rhan fou.leel ln depth, whichever i. tess. gxca"ar-ions-
"]'Ofi i.ilJ V"rOs or less, andplaccmenr of up to 30 cuuic yaras oi crui-t "ii"Jr,,";""r;i,il*n sand, or smaustoDe shall be a,owed in ordLr ro pro"ioJ
"ir"Lr,i u''"r" oi tinrain usc of thel?mp.
(3) The ramo shall be conslrucled ofgravel. natural roch concrere,
:i1l#"ry* or other durable inorganic marenai nor er"e.aing siiro"ire. i,i
D. Remove structures or olher waterway obsrructions provided:
( I ) the_ orig.inal cross-section and bed condirions shall be restoredlnsolar as practicable;
(2) rhe slructure shall b-e complerely rcmoved including any footingsor pilings which obsrrucl navlgauon;
(3) the structure is nor locared on an offically dcsignared routstrcam;
(4) the slructure does not function as a waler level coDtrol device.
., - _ Subo. 5. Permits required crirerie. permis sf,if u. *qri*l f"r lhe consrruc-tron. reconsrrucrion. repair. or relocarion "i;;i;ilil;;'Jn or in prorecred
[1,tii;li l]tr'rlf provided under subpans 3 -a '4,;;e;hai inccr rre fouowing
- -_ . .. A. The proposed projed.must represcnt the minimal impad solulion toa specrhc need wirlr respeo ro a orher rizsoniUii;i;;;;r.
B. The projeo will involve a minimum of "i.o""i_.nr, cbange, ordama'e ro the environmenr, includins bri;;i'ffi;;d;'iri'iio *lalir. n"uio,,navtgauon, water supply, and storm water rrtention. - ----- --''
C. The prooosed srrucT1€^llrll be consisrenl wilh appticable fioodplain,shoreland. and wildand scenic nvers managcmenr sundards an<t ordinanccs forthe waters involved-
D. Adverse effects on rhe physical or biological charaoer ofthe watersshall be subjea to feasible and pratdial ;;r;6;;;Jt" cr"o..E' The proposed srrucrure sh4.r be consisrent *ii to,", and relatcdland managemeDr Dle"s aa6 oro-*-r;it'.*l ;; ,&i"ai gorl-."no, provid_ed these plans and programi arc consistcnr *ft ;i"-;6"s;io p-gra.r.F. Excepr for docks and. poal ramps, all o"*, *our* shall bavc ari c-rc8:isrered permit. unrcss a pubti;;d;A il; el"iiiilt"r unir accep*responsibility for future maiatenance or rcmoval.
Strtutory Arthodrf,: MS s l05.lt5
History,: 8 SR 533
6T15.02TI SPFfIFIC STANDARDS.
. sub??1-1, In generel. In addirion 10 compliaDce u,irh the Bcnerar standards
lL,TIlJlX*r*rd#lfog*rr,","r,.,p""ih"-.-i,1,#!"i1",f; "u"pprvi"tiJ
_ llUp. 2..Docl6..Excepr as providcd in pan 6l15.0210, subpan 3, itcm B, apermrr shall be reauired for rhi construcrion or re-*r-"rit, tf "ri ai.ri "iisha.ll be granted provided:
A. Sir
nancc difficulr
(
wave conditio
(.
ofshore sloDc
(
docking eguip
B. PiI
is too shallow r
authorized.
c. Th
considered b i
D. Th
Subp. 3. V
struction of all
shall be utilize
wharf projcair
Wharves s
A. isl
B.isc
C. dor
arca or beyond
D. siz
E. is o,
ly desigled ro ;
Subp. 4. B
strudioo or r:cr
shall bc pcrmir
lisred specific c
A. Altr
B. The
. facton includin
E, subitcm (2),
C. The
faaors listed in
D. Tht
blend in with
occupied in rclz
E. The
ro u/ilhsrand th
and shall be fac
sizc aad gradari
F. Thc
to the lisred spe
0)los; providcd:
I
I
I
i
l
'
I
I
!-- I
it
ieer in width, and
lark or hto water
ive cubic yards or
3ravel, elean sand,
;e or maintaio use
:al rock, concrete,
iing six inches in
s provided:
shall be rcsrored
rding any footings
designated trout
el control device.
I for the constmc-
,r or in protected
reer the following
icable floodplain,
nd ordinances for
cter of the waters
the effects.
vater and rclated
:rnments, provid-
rd programs.
-rres shall have a
inlal unit accepls
leneral skndards
rall apply to rhe
rpan 3, irem B, a
oi any dock and
A. Similarly situated docks ia the vicinity have not experictrced mainte-
nance difrculty and the use of a seasonal dock is precluded because:
_. _
(l) long fetches would subjea seasonal docls ro damaging storm
wave conditions;
_ (2) bottom condiriors such as bedrock or an extremely gradual
offshore slope would preclude the use of seasonal dock stringen; or
(3) rbe numbcr of public and privare users is so grear the seasonal
docking equipment would nor provide adequatc $abiliry.
B. Piliag docks shall be preferred in all cases unless the depth ro bedrock
is too shailow ro ailow the driving of piles,, in which case rock cribdock may be
authorized.
C. The docks shall exrend warerward only ro a navigable depth, generally
considered to b€ no grealer than four feet.
D. The dock shall not exceed six feet in width.
Subp. 3. Wharves. A permit shall be required for the construction or recon-
struction ofall wharves. The following order ofpreference for construction tlTes
shall be utilized bulkheaded shoreline, inlaud slip with bulkheaded sidewalls,
wharf projeAing into protecled waters.
Wharves shall be permitred provided the structure:
A. is part of a designated pon facilily;
B. is consistent with loca! land use plans and ordinances;
C- docs not extend funher watern-ard than any existing wharves in the
area or beyond any eslablished harbor line, whichever is less;
D. size is the minimum pracricable; and
E. is not an obstrucrion ro llood fiows or lonphore drifr and is adequate-
ly designed to rcsist thc natural forces of ice, wind, and wave.
Subp- 4- Breelweters end merius. A pcrmir shall be rcquired for the con-
strucdon or reconstruction ofall ofshore breakwaren and marinas. These structures
shall be permiled provided the following general conditions and rhe additional
listed specific conditions are mel:
A. Alternative dock or inland facilities are infeasible-
B. The facility shall be adequare in relarion ro appropriare engineering
facron including bul not limiled to those lisred in pan 6l 15.0201, subpan 5, irem
E, subitem (2), units (f) to (n).
C. The plan shall bc adcquatc in rclarion to rhc geologic and hydrologic
faaors lisred in pan 5115.0201, subpart 5, irem E, subirem (2), units (a) lo (e).
D. The size and shapc shall be designed in a compact fashion so as ro
blend in with the surrounding shorclinc whilc minimizing rhe surface arca
occupied in rclation to the number of watercraft to bc scrved.
E. The breakwaters shall not exceed the minimum thickness necessary
to wilhsl.and the anticipared forces consisrent with maintenance rcquiremcnts
and shall be faccd wirh an adequatc layer of natural rock riprap of appropriarc
sizc and gradation-
F. The following typcs of offshorc stnrcturcs shall bc pcrmitrcd, subjccr
to the [sted sp€cific conditions:
(l) Private offshore structures serving scveral contiguous riparian
los; provided:
(a) Thc sitc shall meet thc sundards of subpart 2 for a dock-
(b) Thc structurc shall minimizc encroachmcnr waterward of
the ordinary high warcr mark.
(c) Thc total len$h ofthe shlcrurc shall bc appropriatcly sized
to providc a single mooring spacc for each riparian lot senred.
1
)
5TI5.O2TT PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES 5380
-:r:<f €q*dt\..['- qrr:r.,r:! r{..E +IT_.__3e*,r=-+ -*..{r.F.r\*
JRCES 6rr5.02rr
lect in width and
:er more than four
ards or less, and
:an sand, or small
aintain usc of fie
mpact solution to
S.
.menl, change, or
d wildlife habirar,
538I PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES 5II5.O2II
(2) Private offshore structures for proposed mulrifamily or clusteror residential planned unit developmenls; pro"iaed,---- --'-'
(a) The srructure shall minimize encroachment walerward ofthe ordinary high warer mark and its rotal t."itn ir,"riLi-"ppioO",.ii.iiio ro
4":99 I single mooring space. for eacn npirian toi i" 6.'r!*;a. rr,i numueior moonng spaces to be provided shal generalry be rhe amounr of naturalshoreline ro be servcd divided uv rne roi irinui. iiqrir"-.,i. .r rhe local landuse conlrol authonty.
_ (b) The development plan shall bc approved by rhe local landusc control authority.
, (3) Privale offshore structures for rcsons, campgrounds, or similarcnlerprises: provided:
(a) The strucrure shall minimize encroachment waterward ofthe ordinary high warer mark and its roral t.rgti, in"l]i6.-"pp-n;atef j, s2.[ .
ll?r,_d: 9I: mooring space for each rentat
""u'i, o, c-ps,r-.'rnir prr.L ,""son-aore numDer ol moonng spaces for transient watercraft.
(b) The developmenl plan shall be approved by rhe local landuse control authoriry-
(4) Public offshore srrucrure projects; provided:
.- \a) A local unit of govemment shall pass a rcsolurion whichspecifies the public interesrs ro be beiefrred Uy rfre piojosat.- '
(b) The structure shall be appropnately sized consislenl wilhthe demand for mooring faciliries in ttr. area iria ifie n;b";;i*";-;;ii;;;
served-
(c) The structure shall be available for use by the general public.
- - (d) The developmenr plans shall minimize tbe walcrwardencroachment of the faciliries.
(5) Otrshore marinas; provided:
(a) The ar* shall be zoned for such use or local governmentshall gant a land use permit. '
-. (b) The proposed marina shall minimize encroachment water-warO ot the ordlnary htgh },ater mark.
(c) The marina shall be sized consislenr with the demand formooring facilities in rhe area and the numb€r of watirirafi roie serveo.
Subp. 5-. Xetrining walls and erosion rnd sedimentrtion @nrol sorctures. Apermit shall be required for the conslrucrio' or reconsr;cii* oi
"rr
*r.i"iriwalls and erosion and sedimenr.a on control structures thai do "ot impounEwarer. Tbe construcrion of reuining walls shall Ue aiscouragia becausi theirappearance is generally not consisrent with the natural envir6nment and theirconslruclion and maintcnancc cost is generally grearer tbaD ri;rap.
The issuance of permits shall be conringenr on the fo[owing conditions:
-. ^_- _-|..9l1tling or.expeoed.crosion.problems shall prcclude rhe use of riprap$rore prorectlon, or t"herc shall be a demonstrated need for direct shor&nildocking; or
. 1 Design shall be consisrem wirh exisring uscs in the area- Examplcsare: riverfront commercial-iudusrrial areas travini existing-structurcs of ihisnature, dense residenrial shorcland areas where .;1ii6s 6r"ii6g wall. ao com-mon, resons wherc Iloaring docks may be atuched to such a bufihead, ;; ;h;;
Darg,es arc utllrzed lo transpon cquipmenr and supplies: and
C Adeqtare enginecring studies shall be performcd of foundation con-ditions, uebacks, internal drainage, conskucrion m;teriats, ana prorection
"gai"stIlankingl and
D. The facility shall nor be an aesrheric inrrusion upon the alea aDd is
I
consisrenl witl
programs for t,
E. En,
lhe absolute m
Subp. 6. Br
or reconstrucli,
subpan 4, iren
A. the
B. rhe
Iaunching of u
C. rhe
D. cor
resuh. in substr
Subp. 7. (
rcconstruction.
slruclures. cab
covered bY spe
A. Pel
minor mainter
work, shall be
(r
(:
menr cosl of tl:
(3
increased by vi
of the strucrurr
(4
local land use <
(s
B. Per
owned struclur
(l
ral impacl;
(2
pressures: and
(3
ily obtrusive or
C. Tht
structures shall
mental unil acc
removal.
Subp. 8. Re
a slruclure is n
navigation, or
removed from
Except as provi,
for the rcmoval
boarhouses, bri
provided:
A. rhe
as pracricable;
B. ade,
from removal. :
!.
lil
I
I
I
I
il
I
I'x
6t r5.02t I PUI
5r r5.021I
or cluster
:erward of
ly sized to
]e numberrf Datura!
local land
local land
or similar
:erward of
,y sized to
; a reason-
local land
ion which
stent with
craft to be
,ral public.
waterward
)vernmenl
ent water-
emand for
ved.
ructures. A
I retaining
impound
ausc their
. and their
Examples
'es of this
s are com-
I, or where
atlon con-
,on against
tre3 and is
6115.021T PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES 5 382
consistenl with all applicable local, $ate, and federal management plans and
programs for the water body; and
E. Encroachment below the ordinary high water mark shall b€ held 1o
the absolute minimum necessary for construdion.
Subp. 6. Boat launching ramp. A permit shall be rcquired for the construction
or reconstruction ofany boat launching ramp not covered under pan 6l 15.0210,
subpan 4, irem C, and shall be granred pro\rided:
A. the applicanl shall demonstrare a need for a launching facility:
B. rhe proposed ramp shall be ofrhe minimum dimensions necessary for
launching of watercrafl;
C. the proposed ramp shall not obstruct flowing wateq and
D- construction shall nol necessitate alteration ofshoreland which could
result in subshntial erosion and s€dimenration.
Subp. 7. Other facilities. A permit shall be required for the construction.
reconslruction, rclocation, removal, repair, and abandonment ofall orher offshore
stmcrures. cables other than utiliry crossings, pilings, or other facilities not
covered by specifrc regulations:
A. Permits for slructural repair, relocation, or modification, other than
minor maintenance work such as reroofing, painring of $ructures or similar
work, shall be issued provided all ofrhe following conditions are met:
( t ) the applicanl demonstrates a need for lhc work;
(2) the cost of rhe work will nol exceed 50 percent of the replace-
menl cost of the structure:
(3) the degree ofpermanence ofthe structure will not be materially
increased by vinue of constructing a new foundation or replacing the majority
of the structure above the foundarion;
(4) lhe structure being repaired has appropriate permits from the
local Iand use or sanilary aulhority',
(5) the degree of obslruclion or struclure size is nol increased-
B. Permits for construction, relocation, or reconstruclion of publicly-
owned structures shall be issued where:
( I ) public need is documented and outweighs adverse environmen-
tal impact:
(2) the site is adequately protected from the forces of ice and wave
pressures: and
(3) the proposed construclion is ofsound design and is not necessar-
ily obtrusive or visually incompadble wirh rhe natural surroundings.
C. The construction. relocation, or rccoDstruclion of privarelyowned
struclures shall bc pcrmitted only when a governmenul agency or local govern-
mental unit acceprs responsibility for future maintenance ofthe struflure or its
removal.
Subp. E. Removd of stnrctures. Where the commissioner has detcrmined that
a slruclurc is no longer functional, constitules a public nuisance or a hazard ro
navigation. or poses a threat to public health or s:lfety, the structurc shall be
removed from protecled waters uDder thc applicable provisions of these rutes-
Excepr as provided under pan 6l I 5.0210, subpart 4, itcm D, a permit is required
for rhe removal or abandonment ofall existing watcrway obstructions including
boathouses, bridges. culvens, pilings, pien, and docks. Permils shall be issued
provided:
A. the original cross-section and bed conditions will bc rxtored insofar
as praclicable:
B. adequare provisions are made to miligare any side effeas rcsulting
from removal. such as restoralion of wave or currenl forccsi and
t:
I
t
I
rAt-\....:-:l,. r-iilr.r.9*r:qE!?+l.l'.q.Ei9ir.--:-'\s':.1il!!lr\R.1,<i
ditions:
e of riprap
shoreland
rr.! . i\'.,..,;--rlsr gricrli
:i-.-+--r..;.4e..1
5r15.0220 PU
managcmcnt r
such plans an(
E. TT
ments of pan
prorection of I
F. Th
or changing t[
(
(
(
crosion and s(
(
(
(
specics;
(
power.
Strtutory
History: i
5rr5.022r SP
In additi
spccific rcquir
A. P.
commissionel
water resourc
maintenance ,
(
body have ber
commEsrooc,
(
natural condi
a long, period
acrivrties of r
essentially th(
for all praaic
rhan l -ll2 fet
(
responsibility
tioo;
obtaiacd fron
or owners of t
will bc locatc
propagation (
pnvatc lnlere
watcrs and pl
I
I
I
I
i
1
1
1
i
I
I
j
I
i
i
I
5383 PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES 6115.0220
. . C. lo ponion of the struflurc remains which would obstruct or imoairnavigarion, inrerfere witb lhe passage of nooa *aien, oi Jr,ffi;;;';;:;and sedimenution.
St tutory Authorit!.: MS s l0S.ll5
History: 8 SR SJJ
6TT5.O2T2 RELATIONSHIP TO STANDARDS AND CRITERIA FOR OTHERACTrvrnEs rwoL\.rNG CHANGTS rN COuliiE dDiniNr, oR aiobJSECTION.
-. .,Unless orherwise specified in other pans. pans 6l15.0210 and 6l15.021f
:l-",,.1-S??,I lo slrucrures pro-posed as pan of any orher adivrry or acrivrircsrncruorng bul nor lrmrled ro: filling pafls 6l 15.0190 lo 5t 15.0t 92: excavarioni,pans 6l l5-0200 ro 61 15.0202: wa* iever conrrols, pani oLr rbizo io oils-.tiiiiibrilse-s.a.n-d^qlv^ens,_pans 6-l 15.02rO to o r r l.oj:zi amtn"ii olpror""tco *ar"rs,pans 6l 15.0270 ro 6l I 5_0271i and alrerarions of prote,cr-ea *iters f.i mi"lri,pan 6l I 5.0280.
Statutory Aurhorit!: MS s 105.4lS
Historl: 8 SR 5J3
6u5.0220 WATER LEVEL CONTROIS.
Slbpan l. Goals. lt is the goal ofrhe depanmenl ro manage proteclcd walersrD order lo:
A. maintain natural flow and natural warcr level conditions to themaximum feasible exrent:
. B. encourage the constructior ofsmall upstream rerarding structures forthe conservalion of water in nalural waterbasina
"na
*irir*u,""s, consistentwith an!' overall plans for the afeaed watershed ai."; ana- -
C. limit rhe anihcial manipulation of rarer levels except where the
I1:y:^{{,:.1:d plblic inreresrs ciearry.warranriir,. irr-Utiir,-lnr o};;p;;pnale conlrols and tt ls nol proposed solely to sarisfy private intere*s.
Subp. 2. Scope. The conslruction. repair. reconstruition, or abandonment of
1il^r_1T..::lT ll1:I9" ro.impound, diven, or conrrol rhe i.""ioino* oipiillecled walers shall be subJect to the provisions of this pan.
. Subp. 3. Nonallowed water level control frcilities. Construction or reconsrruc-lion ofwarer level conlror faciliries sha nor ue iiio*"d-*r,"re'ir;s inrinaia romanipulate waler levels solely ro sarisfy private interesrs.
-'- -
Subp. 4. No permit requir$. f,Jo oermir shall be requircd to oonsrruct,reconstruct, orabandon a water level control structure on prorccfcd watcrcourscswith a mnrributing warershed of 300 acres or less, excepi 5, 6mJ"tti diiign;rcJlrout streams, provided the srrudurc docs not qualify-as a aam unicr fli rulcsfor dam safery.
Subp. 5, Permits rcquired. permirs shall be required for the construction,repair, reconstruction, or abandonment of any *iier- tc"ei conuol nruauii*.Tfr-t provided in subpans 3 and 4, and sla mecr rlc foUo*ini lintJc'ntena:
- A. -The projca wilt involve a minimum of cncroachmeat. clranqc- ordamage. ro the environment including bur not limired ro nsl i"J* &iJ UUirar,navigarion, warer supply, storrn waLr rctcnrion, and agricultural uses.
B. Adverse effects on the physical or biological charactcr ofthc watcrsshall be subject to feasible and prahical measurcs r-o -irigatJifr" efrccts. -- -
C. The proposed projecl shall be consistenr with applicablc floodplain,snorelano, and wlld and sc€nlc nvers managcmenl $andards and ordiDancrcs foithe waters involved.
D. The proposed projeo shall be consistenl wirh water and rrlatcd land
cEs 6115.0170
s-s€rtion of the
a.llow vehicular
other hydraulic
ore structure for
.ities are provid-
:rching mechan-
capacity, rcfers
ryater storage).
,lruction, r€con-
y for the exlrac-
or nonmetallic
ings basins, and
ining. Ancillary
)nlrol sructures
:-lloating water-
of the ordinary
lark' m@ns the
secrion 105.37,
lock other than
rlex esnblished
rt to Minnesoh
r useful in the
not limited to,
g and. handling
re malntenance
,illway designed
blished for the
ans an engrneer
.e waters of the
' aatules, seclion
ding or rcnova-
:eed 50 pcrcent
which is rePre-
Minnesota and
verage frcqucn-
.ical or nearlY-
d r@k or stone,
iuppons, sheel
erials and con-
j.::::
6IT5.O17O PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES
T
I
I
:
iI
T
T
t
t
5366
Subp. 35- Riprep shore protection. 'Riprap shore protection' msrtrs co:rnr
stones, boulders, cobbles, anificially broken rock or concrete, or brick materials
laid loosely or wirhin gabion baskets agaio* rhe slope ofthe existing bank ofa
prote'cted water.
Subp. 36. S€esond doclc 'Scasonal dock" means a dock so designed and
constructed that it may be rcmovcd from the lake or stream bed on a scasonal
basis. AII components such as suppons, decking and footilgs must bc capablc
of rcmoval by nonmechanized means.
Subp. 37. Structue. 'Structure' mqrns any building, footing, foun&tion,
slab, roof, boathousc, deck, wall, or any other object extendtrg over, anchorcd,
or permanently attached to the bcd or bank ofa protected water.
Subp. 38. Smcturd beiSht 'Structural height" means the venical distancc
from the natural hd of lhc stream or walercourse measured al the dorvtrstrcam
toe of the control structurc or from the lowe$ elevation ofthe ourside limit of
the control structure, if it is nor across a stream channel or walercoursc, to the
maximum storage elcvation.
Subp. 39. Swellhead. 'Swellhead- means lhe difference beiween the headwa-
ter elevation necessary to pass fte regional llood throug.h the proposed structurc
and the tailwarer elevation below the stnrclure-
Subp. 40. Tenporery stsltcture. 'Temporary structure- meals any seasonal
dock or floaring $ruclure that can be removed from protected walers bcfore
winter freeze-up-
Subp. 4l . Watercaurs€. 'watcrcoursc- means any channel havitrg defrDablc
beds and banks capable of conducting generally confined runoff from adjaccnt
lands. During lloods water may leavc thc confining beds and banls but under low
and normal flows water is confned vithin the channel. A watercourse may bc
perennial or hrermireDt.
Subp. 42. Wlter level c.ntrol stltcture. 'Water level control structurc'
means any struaure which impounds or regulates th€ water surface elevation or
flow of protected waters, including dams regulated under the prodsions of pans
6l 15.0300 to 6l15.0520.
Subp. 43. Whrd, 'Wharl' means a pcrnatrent structurc custructed into
navigable wateni as a pan of a pon facility for benhing or mooring commercial
watercrafl., or for transferring qrrBo to and from watercraft in an industrial or
commercial enterprisc, or for loading or unloading passengers from commercial
watercraft, or for rhe operadon of a pon facility.
Statutory Autbority: MS s 105.415
History: 8 SR J33
61r5.0f80 [Repca.led by amcndmcnt, 8 SR 5331
6TT5.0T90 FILIING INTO PROTECTED WATERS.
Subpan l. Goals. It is thc goal of rhe depanment to limit thc placemcnt of
any fill material into protccted waters in order to:
A. minimizc encroachment, change, or damage ro the environment;
B. regulate lhe quantity and quality of fill and the purposes for which
filling may be allowed based upon the capabilities ofthe waten to assimilarc tbc
material: and
C- maintain consisrency with floodplain, shoreland, and wild and sccnic
rivers management standards and ordinances.
Subp. 2. Scope. Filling as uscd in this pan involves placement ofuncon6ned
or loosely confrned mal.erials in protecled waters.
Subp. l. Nonpcrnined phcement. Placement shall not be permitted in the
following cases:
....., :...:-l,,.'..:.
6r15.0190 PUB
ii
:t
:...,
I
5367 puBl,rc II,ATER RESOURCES 6115.0190
A. 1o achieve vegetation conlrol;
B. to creare upland areas, cxccpt where expressly provided herein;
C. to stabilize beds ofprotecled waters which cannot suppon fill matcri-
als bccause of excessive depths of muck, stecp bank, bed slope, or orher condi-
tiors;
D. to stabilize or impound the sile ofactive springs;
- !.. t9 disoose of rock, sand, grav,el, or any olher solid material rcsulting
from activirics carried out above the ordinary high warer mark;
F. lo construct a roadway or pathway, or create or improve land acccsses
from peripheral shorelands to islands, or to faciliute land lranspofladon across
thc waters; however, whcre a projecl is proposed by a federal, statc, or local
govcrnment agency and rhis provision would prevcnt or restricl rhc projecq or
creale a major conllicl with other public purposcs or interesls, the commiisioncr
may waive tbis provision provided:
( I ) there is no other feasible and pracrical alternative to thc project
that would have less environmenul impact; and
(2) rhal rhe public need for rhe projecl rules out the nc,build
ahernarive;
G. filling of posted fish spawning areas is prohibited.
Subp. 4. No D€rmit requir€d. No pcrmir shall be required for the following
activities unless prohibiled under subpan 3:
A. To install a beach sand blanker provided the sand or gravcl layer does
not exceed six inches in thickness. 50 fccl in width along the shorcline, or onc-half
the width of the lot. whichever is less, and does not extend more lhan ten fect
waterward ofthe ordinary higb warer mark, provided local watershed district and
local zoning officials are given at leasr sevcn days notice by the landowner.
B. For one addirional insulladon ofa sand or gravel layer subscquent
to an initial installation at the same location and not exceeding the samc amounls
and dimensions allowed under item A.
C- To insrall riprap shore protcclion, except along the shorcs of Lake
Supcrior and officially designared trout $reams, provided the riprap marrials
consisr of natural rock having an avcrage size of I 2 inches or larycr in ils smallest
dimension, and conform with the narural alignment of the shorclinc, with a
minimum finished slope nor steeper than 3: I horizontal:venical, no materials are
placed more than five feet waterward of the ordinary high watcr mark, and the
malcrial does not obstrucl the flow ofwater.
D. To place fill in a protected watercourse having a total drainage area,
a1 ils mouth, of6ve square miles or less, providcd that the watercourse is nol an
officially designated troul strEam and the placemenl of i[ shall not rcsult in:
(l) any divcrsions of water from the drainagc arca;
(2) any impoundmcnt of waters by damming the water@urse;
(3) any aaions which would rcsult in erosion and causc scdimenta-
tion of dow4*ream warcrs as determined by rhe county or local soil and xrater
conscrvation dislrict
Subp. 5. Permits rcquircd. Permits shall bc rcquired for rhc placcmeat of 6ll
in prorccred wates, cxcepl as providcd undcr subpans 3 and 4, and shall mcct
all of thc following requiremeats:
A. the project will involve a minimum of encroachmcnt, change, or
damage to lhe environmcnt, including bul not limircd to ish and wildlife habiut,
navigarion, water supply, and storm watcr rctention;
B. the fill consists of clean inorganic marerial thal is frce of pollutants
and nutrients;
C. the existence of a stable, supponing foundation is esublishcd by
.i
appropriate me:
commissione4
D- whc
the sire conditio
erosion control
consistenl with
E. rhe t
a specific need '
F. the r
phy, and suscep
and currents ar,
G. adr
shall be subjcct
H. rhe
shoreland, and
the waters invo
Lthei
management pl
such plans and
Sraotory- e
History: 8
5rr5.0r9l sPE
Subpan L
in pan 6l 15.0l
shall bc mer as
Subp. 2. Ri
crosion by plac
provided:
A. Thr
withstand ice :
amount of spac
be 6llcd with 6:
surface.
B. Tht
ofwell-graded t
of the riprap.
C. Tht
to provide pror
Subp. 3. Ir
shall be pcrmir
alEined by uril
alternatives wh
Fill for na,
shall not cxccer
a maximum wi
deprl grcater r
Subp. 4. S
land losl by crt
A. rh(
impending loss
B. rhe
or flow condit
watcrs involve<
an applicarion
cEs 6rr5.0r90
led herein;
port fill maieri-
or other condi-
-rerial resulting
e land accesscs
trrtation across
state, or local
the project, or
commissioner
i lo the project
- the nobuild
the following
Ivel layer does
ne, or one-half
' lhan ten feet
:d dishct and
ndowner.
er subsequent
,ame amounts
rores of I-ake
rap materials
in is smallest
'elin€, with a
materials are
nark, and the
, change, or
llife habitat,
rf pollutants
6115.0190 PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES 5368
lllt?:"j: -T"-s, inctuding soit boring dara where deemed uecessary by rheconu ssroner.;
D. wherc erosion Drotcttion is deemed necessary by the comnissioner,rbesire condidons ano Fn iare;at iri calaui;
"]-u-"il_ifi,iuilld by an approvederosron control method such as riprap, reraining wall or other mcthod which isconsrsrent with existing land uses-on'rite
"r.al-a p-iJiC'ii"r"r;
.. E. the proposed projecl.must represent the miDimal impaa solution toa spec$c need with respect io all other iearco"Ut" "riiriiii"ir;
puv, -a frllffi rllTfino"'it':' shorcliae' and bo*o' "h"'i*t' "od.topoeo'i"a';;";;#; ;;1h' l;a;ilfdi 3ii'#'.[f;ny"'""'o "",;ons
or wind,,ivaies,
G- adverse effects on,rhe physical or biological charader ofthc walersshail be subjea to feasibre and prairitat ."d;; r6;;A:iJue er.cs;H. rhe proposed filling must be consisrent wirl ipplicable floodplain,shorelaDd. and wild and scenic nvers managemenr suldards and ordinances forthe waters involvedl
I. the proposed fruing must- be consistenr with warer and related landmanagemenr ptans and oroerigl,g-f tocat--;d ;A;fi !o'Jirn-"o,, providedsuch plans and programi ad consisrenr wirl sute-ptins lia prog*r.
Statutory Authodty: MS s 105.415
History': 8 SR 5JJ
6T T5.Or9r SPECIAC STANDARDS.
. SuUg.aJt- 1. tt general. In addirion ro cgmptiance wirh the general shDdardsrn pan 6l15.0190. suboans 2 ro 5, specific ;dil;;;;;'i.-rtcenarn activiriesshall be mer as follows.'
subp. 2.xiprap shore protection..The protecdon ofshoreline from conrinucderosion bv pracement of nirural r."k ;il-t;;Ei[ii1"drJ'l'ir", bc permiuedprovided:
:lr:::t#l?,rx"r::ill1i:+'f ."[,,fl",,"fi,.,ff ,r',,",#_1#:oH*,.ff
Hamount of space between rhe larger matirials anA tfre s-piciLtween rhem shallbe fitled wirh frrmrv seared smattir ro*s offib-il'ilifi;o]iocure a uniformsurlace-
B. The sire soils ar. *q1!1.-9f-ry?pgning riprap and a frtrer consisring
:ii#'-ffj|o *vel' crushed stone, or fabrii is ins-rauea io pii"ent unarircuiiinE
. C. The encroachment into lhe waler is the minimum amounl necessaF,to provide prorecrion and does nor unaury-ior"*iii';it';# ffi;;i;;;*,Subp. 3. Nevieationel eccess. Filling io.gain o""ig"iioJ-u.".ss ro warcrsshall be, permifled only where access to navigable deprhs cannor be reasonablvauarned by ulilizing a dock, rhe exca"arion of in oh"sn-Jre;""#;;;i;;-#latternarrves which would result in less enrironmin-r"ilnii"ii -
Fill for navigarional access shall nor extend beyond t.
"Ag"
ofop.n ,r"reafal] 1o-t exceqd.lide stopes grearJrrri.-2,'i'i6iiiiljii"J"i.ijl!,ar nor excceda maxrmum width of l5 feel ar lhe base of thc 6ll, anO Ja]i niilxtenO to a *arerdepth greater than four feer
. .!ubp, 4. Shoreline rost by erosion^. Appricarions for filling to recover shorc-land lost by erosion or other naruiii bil;;hJi;;;rriiii"t iory,.,r,.r",. A. the loss of shoreline
-is a threat to heaith and saiery rtrrough thcrmpendrng Ioss or damage ro existing st or.tine airi-ropili-nri"
B. the loss ofshoreline hx5 sc616g4 3s a result ofchanges in waler tcvelor flow condirions caused by a1i6;,al ;;qieJ;,;;'#il;i";, levels of rhcw_arers involved with.in a peri6d of not morc thin-6ti.i_ ii"i,'" ,r," oarc whcnan apphcarion for filling is submlrted.
1
{
{
I
!
I
I
t
rablished by
-__
:ralnage area,
rrse ls nol an
t rcsult in:
arcourse;
e sedimenla-
)il and water
rement of fill
d shall meel
,
t
II
J
5369 PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES 6115.0200
The requirements of items A and B shall not preclude the issuance of permitsto place riprap mareriats ", us. otniiiirr;,.ili;.;'il"prorecrion of theshoreline to prevenl continuous erosron.
^__I.bt 5. Pon developmenl,or improvement. Filling necessary. for pon devel-opment or tmprovemenr shall be allowed onlv on rhoii *iri* irf,i.fi iii una.,the jurisdicrion of estabtished pon
"rrt oririei iuujlJio i-rr"'iorroruing,A. no filline shall he allowed.ro exlend beyond rhe limirs oi federallvestablished harbor tlnes. or where no ,arbor line h;;-b;e;';;-6iil;;:;;#?
li",fl1ilTj,i*':'ilf :;:,':x"'o;i'i"h;;ffi
';;;;;;il;"fi;ffi #;il#;
B. the proposed development musl, be pan of a comprehensive pondevelopmenr plan u,hich has been approved by tlie comriisi-ionerl anOC. adverse efecrs of rheproposed fiJling on the physical and biological
:lilllrffit"l:. area shail be subjecr ro mirigaiion meaiuies approve6 61i1fi
...ffUp. !. Fish and r.ildlif€ habitat. Filling to reslore or improve fish andwildl.ife habiral. excepr for firing i, alsrgniiioiroui il;;:: sharr be permirtedprovided ptans are submiued iho" ing ihc.narui. lio aiiiili'
"r ir"-b.ili'iil;benefiled. and rhe projecr u'i, nor.creire orher ao.,rene .-riE"i,,r.t
"i-irooi"ir[,erosion. sedimenrarion. or navrgarional oUsrruciioni.-- -"-"''
Subp. 7. Trout sreams. Filling in-rroul srreams officially designated by rhecommissioner shall be allowed oni-v if:
. A. rhe amount, merhod of placement, and localion of the fill will notresult in increased *aler lemDerarurei, e*cessi"L ieJim"riiiiiri iri ii;;i*;;;;desrrucrion of fish habiut: aird
B. there is no other feasible or practical alrernative other rhan filling.. SlFp. 8. Orher purposes. Filling.for orher purposes nor speci6cafly lisred str-allbe. subjeo lo_the generat srandarls. in p"rf Or'rl.or-s6,
-iu-ip"*,
2 lo 5 andsubmission of informarion ro show that:
, . A. rhe inrended purpose.of the filr is reasonabre with rcsped to a otherallemalives and lhere are no feasible and pncricat ;a;.;-ai;'in rh. ;i.;;;;purpose wirhour filling; and
B. rhe proposal will adequarely prorefl public safery and promore thepublic welfare.
Strturory Authoritl: MS s )05.415
History: 8 SR 5J3
6u5.0t92 REI_ATIONSHTP TO STAN_DARDS AND CRTTERIA FOR OTHERACM-TIES INVOL!]NG CHANGES IN COUi,SL CUiRiN,T, OR CROSSSECTION.
- -.Unless orhenyise specified in othe-r pans, pans 6l15.0190 and 6l f5.0l9tshall apply ro fillingprolposcd as pan ;i;i;ii,;r-;;iilt oi ""iturics tncludinsbur nol Iimired lo: Excavarions pans6l Ii.0200 r" Ot i-i.OiO1,-'Srn-ciil;.i;6r.r5.0210.ro 6ns.02r2, warei_lcver rynrrori-p"ri'oiiJlO'zlo ro 6tii.6;r;,Bridges.an-d-culvens pans 6f 15.0230 to O f f S.OZ3i-Drai""!.-o-ipror"oeo *at"rspans 6l15.0270 ro 61t5.0272. and Atrerarions oip-1iJ"a,*"r"r. i;;;mi;;pan 6l I 5.0280.
Strtutory Authority: MS s l0S.415
History: 8 SR 533
6115.0200 EXCAVATION OF PROTECTED WATERS.
_
Sylpln l. Goals. Ir is-rhe goal ofrhc depanmenr ro limit thc excavation ofmarenals trom the beds of protecled waters in order to:
A. preserve th€ natural character of protected watcrs and their shore-
6115.0200 Pt
lands. in orde:
panicularly rl
B. rt
cxcavalions $
cxcavation; ar
C. cc
and proted ar
other adverse
Subp. 2. I
results in the
deepening, str
rnvolvg proDo
watcr mark.
Subp. 3. I
following case
A. wl
such access ca
in less enviror
B. wl
nonriparian la
ian landst
C. wL
and wildlife h:
or ecologicalll
D. ro
areas;
E. wh
poses except a
F. wh
problem becau
alternative soh
G. ur.
disposal of exc
H. wh
would lower th ,
Subp. 4. N
the following a
A. for
arca, at its mor
aot an ofrcialll
(r
(2
(3
tion of downsrr
ooDscrvation dr
B. to rr
rcmoval docs I
watersl
C. for
to Minnesou S'rcpair' sct for
Subp. 5. Pe
rcmoval of any
r00
rts
he
el-
ier
llrt
nd
n8
)rI
'al
ne
ad
ed
be
tg
6115.0200 puBLIc IIATER RESOURCES 5370
lands, in order lo minimize cncroachment, change, or damage to the environmcnt,panicularly thc ecosysrem of the warers:
. B. regulate lhe nature, degree, and purpose of excavations so thalcxcavadons wi.ll h comparible wirh ttre capabitiry 6f rhe waren ro assimilare thecxcava on: and
. C. control the deposirion of materials cxcavaled from prolected walcrsand prored and preserve rhe waters and adjaccnt lands from seiimenurion andother adverse physical and biological cffccG.
Subp. 2. Scope. Excavalion as uscd in this rule includes any activity whichresults in lhe displacemenr or rcmoval of borrom materiali or rh; ;id.;i;;:
,d-T.ffIl1:gqh]:ning, realigning, or exrending oi proriciea *"ri,". ri ."1lnvorve proposals lor excavations landward or waterward from the ordinary higirwaler mark.
- -. SyUp. 3. Nonpermitred ercrvrtion. Excavation shall not be permitted in rhefollowing cases:
A. where it is inrended to gain access to navigable water depths whensuch access can be reasonably atkinid by ahernari"c rieani *irlch would resuhln less envlronmenBl rmpact;
B. where inland excavation is intended to exrend riparian rights tononriparian lands, or lo promore rhe suMivision ana aivet'opminr "i r6fupar-ian lands:
. .. .-C where the proposed excavarion will be detrimenhl ro significanr fish
il9 -yll_d_lif:,I"Uior, or prorecred vegerarion and there are no feariUT., poJiiJ,or ecotogcalty accepBble means lo mirigate the effects;
D. to control or eliminare vegcntion for the development of beachareas;
E. where it is inrended 10 provide fill materials for development pur-poses excepl as provided under pan 6l 15.02g0;
F. where the excavalion would nol provide an effeclive solution to aproblem because of recurrenl sedimenrarion and lhere are ieaiiUte anO pracricalalteraarive solutions which do nol require excavation; - ----'
G. unless lhe excavalion project
-
includes provisions for acceptabledisposal of excavated materials as piovided in tresi ritisl oi--'
H. where the excavalion would cause incrcased scepage of water whichwould lower the warer level ofprotected waters and resutt i" JrUlrrf"o arain"g".
-.- IHlp .4. No permit required, No permit for excavadon shall be required iorrac rollowrng acuvll.les unless prohibired in subpafl 3:
A. for excavations in a protectcd- watcrcoursc having a rcral drainagearca, a1 ils mouth, offive square milcs or less, provided thaiiie watercourse isnor an ohclally desrgnaled trout stream and l}e excavatioD will not resuh in:(l) any diversions of water from the drainage area;
(2) any iopoundment of u/"aler5 by .tqrnming the rarcrcourse;
(3) aay acrions which would result in crosiou and causc sed.imcDta-uoD ol downstrcam warcrs as dctcroined by the counry or local soil and urarcrcoDscrvadon district;
B. to remove debris such astecs, log, slumps, and trash providcd suchrcmoval does Dot alter the original alignminr, stoirc, oi cross+ccrion of rtriwate6i
.^ .,.-_-9-fur-*r1ir ofa public. drainage syslcm lawfully esrablished pursuanrro Mlnnesota SElutes, chapters I 064 and I 12 consistcni wirb the dcfi-aition of-rcparr" ser tonh rn MinnesoE Srarurcs, secdon 106A701, subdivision I.
Subp. 5. Permits ;equired. Permirs shall be rcquired for the cxcaration ardrcmoval of any marerials from prorccted *atcrs or any cicavirlons "ii;;drr;
1e
ol
or
I.
3ll
:d
,-d
1e
Ri
:l
rg
15)
rs
-rg
:f
I
537r PUBLIC WATER RESOURCES 6115.0200
id.-.r,.-,l--{rrs!,rA*;ta}rBi5r:!-t 5
6l r5.02lr PUBLIC ,
consistent wilh all a
Programs for the wal
E. Encroach
the absolure minimu
Subp. 6. Boat lau
or reconslruction of;
subpan 4. irem C, ar
A. the appli
B. the propo
launching of watercr
C. the prop,
D. construcr
result in substantial
Subp. 7. Other
reconstruclion. reloci
structures. cables ol
covered bl speiihc r
A- Permirs '
minor maintenance
work. shall be issuec
(l ) the.
(2) the
ment cost of the strt
(3) the
increased by vinue .
of the srructure abo'
(4) rhe
local land use or sar
(5) the
B. Permits
owned stmctures sh
(l)put
tal impact:
(2) the
pressures; and
(3) rhe
ily obtrusive or visu
C. The con
structures shall be p
mental unit accepls
removal.
Subp- E. Removr
a structure is no lor
navigation, or pose
removed from protr
Except as provided I
for the removal or a
boathouses, bridges
provided:
A. rhe orig:
as pracricabl€;
B. adequat
from removal, such
1
I
into or out of protected walers. except as provided in subpans 3 and 4, and shall
be subject to the following general criteria:
A. The project musl be reasonable and practical based upon geologic
and hydrologic conditions including but not limited to:
(l ) quantiry and qualiry of local drainage al the site;
(2) type of sedimen/soil strata and underground formations in the
viciniry;
(3) life expectanc-v ofthe excavation with respect to bcdload, long-
shore drift, and siltation patterns in the project vicinity; and
(4) protection ofthe water body from increased seepage, pollution,
and other hydrologic impacts.
B. The disposal of excavated materials shall be subjed ro the following
requirements:
( I ) The disposal of any excavated materials conraining pollutan$
shall be subject to requirements of Minnesota Sututes. chapter I15.
(2) The mosr acceprable means of disposing ofclean materials, free
from pollurants, which are excaYated from protected waren listed in order of
preference are:
(a) Complele removal of excavaled materials from ihe walers
and disposal or reuse for other purposes outside of the floodplain.
(b) Deposirion in stable on-land disposal sites located above
the ordinary high water mark and outside of floodway dislricts esBblished under
Iocal ordinince. Provisions must be included for sodding, seedin& or otherwise
properly slabilizing these maleria'ls.
(c) Temporary deposition along shorelines or within flood-
plains by stockpiling materials for subsequent removal to areas outside ofany
irrorecred waters and outside of established floodplain districts provided that:
iny stockpile materials are removed within one year of stockpiling; and the
stockpile is constructed so that any materials or wat€rs enrering or leaving the
stockpile are controlled to prevent any introduction ofsediment itrto the environ-
ment surrounding the slockpile.
(d) Redeposition of excavated materials, consisting of inorgan-
ic materials free from pollutants. inlo protected waters shall only be permitted
when ir will result in improvement of natural conditions of protected waters for
the public benefit and will not result in sedimentalion, obstruclior ofravigation,
or aloss offish or wildlife habitat. Separare permit provisions shall be required
for redeposition of excavated materials subject lo the srandards and critena of
subpans 2 to 5.
(e) Determinaiion ofthe public benefrr scrved by -redepositionof excavated mali;als shall be based on the value to the public of redeposited
materials in order to protect shorelines from lhe &maging efects of erosion due
to winds and waves when there are no other feasible, practid and ecologicatly
acceplable means to protect the shoreline; or creale or impro-ve.habital areas for
fish ind wildlife; or mitigate or enhance the physical and biological cnvironment
within pmteaed warers when mitigative or enhancemcnt.measures are required
as a condition ofa permitted activity within the waters involved eld thcre are
no other feasible, pizctical. and ecologically actlPtable mitigative measures.
C. The proposed project must represent lhe 'minimal. impact" solution
to a specific neeil rxirh respect to all other reasonable alternativB.
D. The excavation must be limiled to the minimum dimcnsions neces-
sary for achieviDg the desired purpose.
E. Where excavation is proposed in a protected watcr rhar is perched on
an impervious slratum, soil borings must showthat the proposcd excavatlon wll
not ruplure the impervious stralum.
T
I
:
:
t
!
II
III,
I
It
i
i
i
i
I
i
I
I
i
I
i
APPLICANT:
ADDRESS A
. J.s
z,P
TELEPEONE (DAY timet 934.22 SB tEraPBoNE ?s4. lz
RBQ@SI:
tonlng District ChaDge
Zoniag lppcal
ZoninE Variance
Zoning Text lnendrent
lanal Use Plan tnendrent
Condlitional Use Pernit
Site Plan Revies
PROJECT NAI.{E
PRESENT I.AND USE PI,AN DESIGNAIION
REQUESTED IAND T'SE PLA}I DBSIGNATION
s5?t
z p
Pt.annedl UDlt Dcvelolrnen t
e
_ Sketch Plan
_ Eellninary plan
Fiaal Plan
J_
Subdlvi a ion
_ Plattlng
_ lEtes and Bounde
Street/BaseEeDt Vaeatlon
lletlands Pernlt
/<
7e r4'r' C -
-/o
PRESENT ZONING R , A F4-rrteL
REQIIESTBD BONI,NG ?AN
)SIZE OF PROPERTT
toCArIoN SE€ *zZAc,(ttzzT
REASONS FOR TEIS REQTESI
4{, ato CrrT o?oek zo 2cst>ac Uaaa 6.t.v. oa.3'.r..-s7i.7c'. U,1).aA a2'.t../a.'
Q o7arce2214 zlc As*- rat..-,/ 4)c.. 6 a, UC 7b
02 ltopo ot4at 7/,<u 7.r€ a/27 Zlaao ,2C.1
a.ae 70 ?o<,t*..- 7ra: a,tati
I.EGAL DESCRIPTION
6.J7a.a, a t '/. - ! ' C^, ,.C .e- .* .)a , -,r ?e.c.ts ol< CL-a-t A.r. Ue *oaZo1y(Atta az 6t eaor., ca 4t. A44, t027c.o-.lat kcal 6.tcy'ch lcEal tf Dec..sary )Foi Z1ls.
t
HIID DEVEIOEIETI APPIJCITIO
"llr s"ffi:B:i=
Cb!.Eba8!eD, xf, 55317(612) 937-1900
OHRts E^lact CtyllER: ./otus Znxe Rzzsa-anr Ar*|..
IDDRBSS
T'SES PROPOSED
/orrs leEC 6 ettazaaur ,2-ss.c,c tt7tcy' o.JtTlor A
( scz. t4nzre rEo\
City of Chanhassen
Iand Developnent tpplication
Page 2
--..--. - .it'"This appl'icdtion rust be conpreteat tn fuli an, be typewritten oiclearry printed and Eust be ieconpan iea -uy..aI rnfor,rtion .nd
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FILING INSTR UCTTONS:
FITING CERTIF ICATION:
rhe undersiined reoreaentrtive of the applrcant. hereby certrfiesthat he is faniliai with the pr"."ioi.i'ircquirenents of allapplicable city OrdioaDces .
,".re*//-.1" &*--zl A..;id
Ihe. undersigned bereby certlfics that the applicant has beeoauthorized to Eake this applicatfon-ioi--tt.-piop"iiy;;r;;"described
Signed By
t Date 8,2r. 9c
DateFeeOwne r
Date Appticatioo Received
Applicatlon Fee paidt
City Rcceipt No.
. PLoDlDE Coulrlon./
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r this-Application riLl be coneldercd by $lBoard of Adjustneats and rppeaii-it tlefrDeeiing.
Signed By
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Pc DATE: 8/L/9o
CC DATE: 8/27/90
CASE #: 85-1 Site PIan
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STAFF REPORT
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Site PLan Review Anendment for a cravel Parking Iot
The Easterly HaIf of the Lotus Lawn and Garden Property
Adj acent to the Redmond Property.
PROPOSAL:
IOCATION:
Rednond Products
L8930 W. 78th Street
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Lotus Lawn & Garden (owner)
78 West 78th Street
Chanhassen, MN 55317
PRESENT ZONING:
ACRE.AGE:
DENSITY:
BH, Highway Business
20, OO0 square feet
AA]ACENT ZONING AND
IAND USE:N - Railroad Tracks
S - flrry. 5
E - RedEond Products
W - Iotus Lalfn and carden
WATER AND SEWER:
PHYSICAL CTTAR]ACTER. :
AvailabIe
A level site with no inprovements.
2OOO IAND USE PIAN:Conmercial
APPLICANT:
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Redmond Parking Expansion
Augrust 1, 1990
Page 2
PROPOSAL
On September 12, 1988, the City Council approved a conditional usepernit and site plan for the Lotus LaI.In and carden. The proposed
inprovenents to the site were located on the southwesterly half ofthe property, Ieaving the southeasterly portion of the property
open for future expansion. The rear half of the property is aprotected wetland. Redmond Products is located directly to theeast of the property. Redmond Products has proposed to JayKronick, the owner of l-otus Inhrn and Garden , to lease thesoutheasterly portion of the Lotus Lalrn and carden property to be
used as a parking area for the Redmond employees.
Rednond is in the plocess of reviewing the possibility ofrelocating to a new site and expanding their facility until then
Rednond is in need of additional parking for itts employees. Thetype of production that Rednond is involved in reguires theoverlapping of shifts so that the production is not stopped betweenshifts. The parking provided on the Redmond site is not adequateto a11ow for the overlapping of shifts and there has been parkingof cars in the fire lanes and in other inappropriate areas. To
acconnodate the additional parking required, Redmond is proposingto construct a gravel parking lot on the Lotus Lawn and Gardenproperty. The gravel parking lot will be approximately 19,OoO
square feet in size and provide 78 parking spaces (Attachnent #1).The parking Lot t iII be serviced by a curb cut on the RednondProducts site entering the Iotus Lawn and Garden site fron theeast. The curb cut shall have a concrete driveway apron. Therewill be no additional curb cuts on the frontage road, nor nill theparking be directed through the existing Iotus Lawn and cardenparking 1ot. Rednond is proposing to lease the land for theparking lot for 3 years.
The two issues with the proposal is the use of a gravel surfacedparking lot and the mass parking design of the parking area. Theparking 1ot is being proposed gravel rather than the required pavedIot with curb and giutter to accoDmodate Jay Kronickis uish to usethe site for future nursery expansion. A gravel parking lotresults in high maintenance, increased runoff, erosion control
probleros and parking stalls shich cannot be striped. The applicantstated that they first proposed a paved parking lot but that theorrner, ,fay Kronick, preferred gravel so the property can be usedfor plant storage without the need for any restoration. paving theparking lot will result in less naintenance, less erosion of thesite (which is iroportant sith runoff directed torrards the wetland),will be in confornance with the ordinance and will not be settinga precedent. Staff has agreed that the curb and gutter is notnecessary but that barrier curb stops must be provided for altperimeter stalls. Therefore, the parking lot can sti1l be easilyrestored for use by the Lotus Lawn and Garden expansion. A
Redmond Parking Expansion
August 1, 1990
Page 3
condition of approval will be for the area to be restored to itsoriginal state. Therefore, Iotus Lawn and Garden uill be able to
use the site in the future.
The original plan showed a parking lot nith typical parking stalts
and aisles (Attachnent #2). The neu parkinq plan shows nassparking with stacking of up to 4 rows of parking sta1ls. Theapplicant is proposing this to acconmodate nore parking stalls.
The original plat provided 65 parking staIIs. The parking lot will
be attended during shift changes to direct parking. This type ofparking does not conforn to the zoning ordinance requirenents andstaff believes there will be problens if an energency arises whena car double parked will need to leave during the shift. Drivers
nay be tenpted to pull out to the rrest onto the Lotus Iaw and
Garden site. The only way such a parking 1ot rrorks, as i.n downtown
around the }Ietro Done, j.s when there is a fulL tine attendant onsite with access to the car and car keys. I{e do, hotever, supportthe original parking proposal for 65 sta11s. Therefore, staff is
recommending against the mass parking proposal . Should thePlanning Commission and City Council approve such a design, acondition of approval should be that a full tirne parking attendant
be provided during shifts that the parking lot irill be used.
Staff is recornmending that the applicant provide a letter of creditvhich would cover the cost of restoratj.on for the parking area andwill also be recornmending that the parking 1ot shaLl be restored atthe end of the 3 year period to ensure its tenporary stalls. Theproposed parking lot meets the setback requirernents of the BHDistrict and ls rnaintaining the 75 foot setback fron the uetland.
Dra inaqe
The existing site drains to the north into the wetland. Theproposed drainage plan will naintain drainage directed to thenorth. Silt fence is proposed north of the parking lot to protectthe wetland. Staff reconmends the erosion control be a qrpe III
and be naintained while the parking lot exists.
Landscapincr
The applicant is proposing a 4 foot high bern along the frontage
road with ten 2L inch caliper evergreen trees. Currently, there isa 2 foot high bern in front of the Iptus Lar.In and Garden. Staff isproposing that the berm have rolling features sith elevations fron2lo 4 foot in height to better blend in with the current beru infront of Lotus l,awn and Garden. Jay Kronick has also requestedthat rather than evergreen trees, the applicant provide shrubberyon the bern rrhich rrould match the Lotus Lawn and carden 6i,te.Staff feels that it is critical that the parking area be screenedand therefore, is recornrnending that evergreens be used where the
Redmond Parking Expansion
August 1, 1990
Page 4
bern is 2 foot in height and that shrubbery could be used where the
benn is higher than 2 feet. The evergreen trees must be a minimunof 6 foot in height. An amended landscaping plan must be providedto show the proposed changes in the landscaping.
RECOMMENDATION
1
Staff recommends the
motion:
3.
Planning Co'nrnission adopt the following
irThe Planning Commission reconmends approval of site Plan Review
Amendment #85-1 rrith the following conditions:
A revised site plan shal1 be subnitted showing that theparking lot shall be paved with a 2 inch bituminous nat.
The parking lot rrill be pennitted for three year (36 Donths)until october 31, 1993, and at which tirae the area Dust be
restored to its original condition. ff the use of the parkingIot is extended beyond three years curb and gutter must beprovided around the parking Iot perineter and the site must
connect to the storn serrer in West 78th street.
2
4
A revised grading and landscaping plan shall be subnittedproviding the required berrning and landscaping.
Type III reinforced erosion control shall be installed at alllocations shown on the plans prior to construction and
rnaintained for the life of the facility. A detail of Tlpe fIIreinforced erosion control shalI be shown on the plans.
A concrete driveway apron (city standard) sha1l be installedat the entrance to the parking 1ot.
5.
1
2
3
4
5
6.The applicant shaLl provide the City with a letter of creditin an amount approved by the City Engineer to cover the costto renove all of the proposed improvements and restore thesite back to its original conditions. t'
ATTACHMENTS
Proposed parking lot plan.
original parking 1ot plan.
lileno from charles Folch dated JuIy 24, 1990.
l,[eno from van Sickle, Allen & Associates dated JuIy 18, 1990.
Application.
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PARKING LOT
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ORIGINAL PLAN
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STATE HIGHWAY NO. 5
PROPOSED SITE PLAN
ATTACHMENT #2
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690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
CITY OF
CH[NH[EEEN
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IIIEII'IORANDUM
TO: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner
FROH: Charles Fo1ch. Assistant City Engineer
DATE: July 24, 1990
SUBJ :PIan Review for Redmond Temporary parking Lot ExpansionFile No. 90-18 Land Use Review
In order to improve a parking facility shortage primarilyoccurring during a work shift change, Redmond products, Inc. isproposing to lease some adjacent property to the west for aparking 1ot. The parking 1ot inprovement is proposed to be atemporary facility constructed of crushed rock with no curb andgutter or storm sewer. The applicant has expressed a desire toconstruct the parking lot in this manner in order to facilitateremoval and restoration of the area when the use is no longer
needed .
PARKTNG
DRAINAGE
?he City typically requires a paveil surface with curb and gutteras a fundamental design criteria for a parking lot. A gravelsurface is not desirable for a parking Iot facility. This typeof surface wiIl be a constant source of erosion. Ouring thespring thaw and at various times during the year, the Iot wiil Uemuddy and wiII reguire frequent maintenance. Snow plowing willlike1y disturb and disperse the gravel surface.
A mass parking scheme is proposed to naximize capacity. Thiswill force nany cars to be ,double parked,' antl blockeil in. Thisagain is not an ideal condition, especiaJ.ly during an ernergencysituation. Striping of parking stalls to maintain organized andorderly parking is not feasible on a gravel surface.
The existing land forponding basin. The
this improvement drains to the north into agrading plan for the proposed improvement
ig
Jo Ann OlsenJuly 24, 1990
Page 2
exhibits a sheet drainage scheme to the north consistent with the
present condition. Silt fence is shown on the plans to be
installed north of the parking lot just south of the pond. It is
recommend.ed that Type III reinforced erosion control be installedprior to construction anil maintained throughout the life of theparking Iot. Existing curb will need to be removeil for the
entrance to the proposed parking 1ot. It is recoumended that a
concrete driveway apron be installed.
On July 18, 1990 I conveyeal the aforementionetl concerns by phone
to lqr. Anthony Pini of van Sickle, Allen and Associates (engineer
for the applicant). Ivlr. Pini acknowledged rny concerns andprovided some suggestions to remedy these potential problems.
Ir1r. Pini stressed that the applicant is aware that an ongoing
maintenance program will be necessary for the parking lot andthat erosion control must be maintained for the life of thefacility. The applicant is aLso proposing to install a 2-inchmat of "clear" crushed rock to control potential muddy spots.
Being that the parking lot is to be used on a voluntary employeeparticipation basis, the applicant does noL anticipate any major
problems for egress of vehicles.
Taking !1r. Pinirs suggestions into consideration, I am still
concerned about a number of items. First of all, the issue of
emergency egress of one or more parked vehicles has not been
adequately addressed. Subsequently, the iilea of "double" parking
seems to be an inappropriate proposal . Stall striping is not a
viable option on a gravel surface. without sta1l striping it is
difficult to achieve organized and orderly parking on a regularbasis. FinaIIy, the applicant acknowledges that an ongoing
maintenance routine would be necessary for a gravel parking
surface. However, the time and material cost to maintain this
type of 1ot for a perioil of years may in fact approach or exceed
the initial cost of paving the parking lot. If a gravel surface
is permitted, the applicant would have to enter into a
maintenance agreement with the City and provide the necessary
securities.
It is my conclusion that the temporaly parking
paved at this time and will not adversely affect
to revert the area back to its original condition.
1ot should be
the oppoltuni ty
RECOI"II{ENDAT ION S
The applicant sha1l as a minimum pave a 2-inch bituminous mat
over the entire parking lot and provide barrier curb stops
for all perimeter parking stal1s.
1
Jo Ann OlsenJuly 24, 1990
Page 3
c: Gary warren, City Engineer
2. fype III reinforced erosion control shall be installed at alllocations shown on the plans prior to construction andnaintained for the life of the facility. A detail of TypeIII reinforced erosion control shall be shown on the p1ans.
3. A concrete driveway apron (City standard) shall be installed
at the entrance to the parking 1ot.
4. A maximum time limit of three years sha1l be defined for theparking lot. This will confirm its "temporary" status. Ifits life is desired to be longer than three years, it shall
be constructed with curb and gutter.
5. The applicant sha1l provide the City with a bond or letter ofcredit in an amount not less than the cost to remove all ofthe proposed improvements and restore the site back to itsoriginal conditions.
CDF: ktm
vAN SICKLE, ALLEN & ASSOCIATES, lNC.
4969 OLSON MEMORIAL HIGHWAY MINNEAPOLIS. MN 55422 612/541-9804
TELEPHONE CONVERSATION I{EMO
ur. Bob Cordell
July 18, i990
Redmoad - Temporary Parking Lot
TO:
DATE:
JOB:
vAA COUM.
BETWEEN:
COPY TO:
90.00s. 10
A.J. Pini
As s istant
Richard va
Charles Fo
NO.
and charles Folch, chanhassetrCity Engineer
S ickl e
h
The
RECEIVED
JUL 2 3 1990
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
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4
Discussed the temporary parking 1ot with FoLch.following are his conments/concerns:
Folch did not feeL that the plan as subnitted was very
desirable for the city or the owner.
The city needs to be very careful to not set the wrong
kinds of precedents .
The parkiag 1ot silL be a constant source of erosion.
The parking 1ot Eurface wilL be muddy, will require
constant maintenance and will be susceptible to
displacement by snow pJ.owing.
Mass parkj-ng was guestioned with respect to emergency
egress of "blocked in' vehicles.
Consulting Engineers Civil Structural
5.
1
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Pini responded by suggesting that:
Erosion control be left in place and maintained in goodcondition permanently (ie. for the life of thefacility )
we are proposing a 2" thick surface of 'c1ear' crushedrock which will help to control "muddy" spots.
Maintenance is anticipated and will be provided by theowner. It is certainly in the owners interest toconduct such ma::ltenancg.
4. Mass parking is quite conmon and is not aoticipated to
be a problem for the owner or employees. Employeeparticipation is to be on a voLuntary basis.
In a subsequent phone conversation Folch indicated that thecity would consider the proposed plan and make a
recorunendat.ion to the Planning Commission, but that there
would be certain provisions that they would recornrnend beattached to the approval. These provisions would includebut might not be limited to:
1. A definite tlre limit for the use of the facility witban agreement to remove the 1ot after that tine.
Requirement for a bond to cover the cost of removal ofthe facility.
Pini thanked Fo1ch for his
matter.
help and cooperation on this
I'NLESS NOTIFIED WITHIN ? DAYS,
ALL ITEMS ABOVE ARE ASSI]MED TO BE CORRECT
AJP/cmm
v7 19phon
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Telephone Conversation MemoJuIy 19, 1990
Page 2 of 2
APPIICAIIT !
ADDRESS
I4ND DEVEI.OETETT APPIJCTTTOf,CI"I OP CEAf,EASSET
590 @ulter Drl,veCh.DhalseD, lllt 5531?(612) 937-1900
Redmond Products, fnc.
'l 8930 t^l 7 8th Street
OWNER:Lotus Lawn & Garden (Jay Kronick)
TDDRESS 78 !,l. 78th St.
TELEPEONE (Daytine)
REQIIEST:
z P e
(612) 934-4868 :tEtEpEONE 949-0726
Chanhassen, MN 55317
p code
T
Zoning District Change
Zoning Appeal
Zoning variance
Zoning Sext ADendlnent
Lnal Use Pl.an tmendlment
Condlitional Use perDit
Site Plan Revieu
Dlaaacdl UDlt DcvclolrDen t
_ Sketcb Plan_ Eellnlnary plan
_ liaal PIan
Eubdivieloa
_ Plattlng
_ lGtes aDd Bounds
Street/Ersr0eat Vacation
Tetlandts Perdd
PROJECT NN{E Redmond Products Leased Parki nq Area
PRESENT IAND OSE PLAN DESIGNAUON BH
REQI'ESTED IAND USE P&AN DESIGNAIION
PRESENT ZONING
REQUESIED ZONING
Parkinq
Approximatel v20 ,000 s.F.SIZE OF PR,OPERTY
IOCAIION
REASONS FOR TIIS REOEST Additi.onal Park ing For Redmond Products, Inc.
TAGAL DESCRIPTION (Attleh lcgal tf DGcc.urJ)
USES PROPOSED
FILIN G INSTRU CTTONS:
IIING ERTIFI ION:
?his application Dust be conpletedl ln full and ba rwnarri).-crearii-piiii.i""ia'-,osr bc il;;;";id-ii :li *r:IffIill.ilu",Eli?:-':SYired bv .pplic.-!i:-Eiil-6;;i;.nce provrsrons. Beroretrr:.ng this application, you aho-uld cooier rii[-il;;iiy iiinr,".to deteriiine the soecirie'oiaiaaiii iii-pr""edu*1 rcguireaentsapplicable to your-appli;.tt;;:*rE 59.. I
lhe EDdethat heepplicab
Signed By
is
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lined rcprcaentatlva o! the lppucaDt bcreby ccrtlficsEiti'iHrff!"lf " n'o"d;;'i-;;ia;;:;i" ot ui-----
The. undersigned hereby certifics that the lppllcrnt haa -bcen
!::::ii$: to aake trris appiicitio,i-ioi"iha-;;;;;ilyTl,lii"
APP crn t D!tr
DatcSiEneil By
Applieatioa Fce paldt.
Clty Recclpt tro.
t -)A'1 f;"rr.rtclt),
. this-Applicltion rtll be eoaeldcrod buEoard of AdjusrDcDt. aoa ippcirt-;; iileetinE .-tbc Phaalag Conatrtlon./c8a
crty of Chanhassen
iil: !*"t'pment Appllcation
Date ApplicatloD Recclecd
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COT,IIIISSION
REGULAR }IEETING
JULY 18, 1990
Chairman Conrad cal.led the m6eting to order
i4EHBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings,Brian Batzli, Jim tlildermuth and Joan Ahrens
Paul Krauss presenled
hearing to order.
at 7:4O p.m. .
Annette EIIson, Ladd Conrad,
STAFF PRESENT: PauI Krauss, Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, SeniorPlanner; and Sharmin AI-Jaff, Plann€r One
PUBLIC HEARING:
INTERI},I USE PERHIT FOR CARVER COI.INTY PI'BLTC !rcRKS FOR A GRADING PROJECT TO
CONSTRUCT AN ACTIVE PLAY AREA IN THE HINNEI.IASHTA REGIONAL PARK LOCATED ONH.rY. 41 -
PubIic Present:
Al Klinselhutz, Carver County Commissioner
the staff report. Chairman Conrad caIled the public
l,,lildermuth moved, Batzli eeconded to close the public hearing- All votedin favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Batzli: I'{v onlv discussion is that r thought we w€re going to call it likean earth work permit or something like that. But that t,as my only comment.
Krauss: tlapplying f the actual permit
the IUP.
that they will receive is but what they,re
BatzIi: Okay.
Emmings moved, tlildermuth seconded that the pranning conmission recommendapproval of Interim Use P€rmit *9O-1 as sho{n on the plans and subject tothe folIowing conditions:
r Approval of Phase I grading permit based on applicant obtaining andcomplying with the tlatershed District Permit.
All voted in favor and the rEotion carried.
PUBLIC HEARING:R.J. RYAN COT{PANY FOR DEXTER I{AGNETIC T{ATERIALS, PROPERTY ZONED IOP.
INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK AND LOCATED ON OUATTRO DRIVE:
REPLAT OF LOTS 5 AND 6, BLOCK 1, PARK ONE 3RD ADDITIOilI, INTO ONE LOT.
SITE PLAN REVIE}I FOR A 2O,OOO SOTJAR€ FOOT OFFICE./}IAREHOUSE FACILITY.
eI I ,or is
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B
P lanni n9
July 18,
Commission MeeL i ng
1990 - Page 2
PubIic Present r
Name
Jack Rogers
Roger Fe I I obrs
R.J. Ryan ConsLruct Company
Dexter Hagnetic l.tater ials
Sharmin AI-Jaff presented the staff r€Port. Chairman Conrad caIIed thepublic hearing to order.
Jack Rogers introduced himself as being with R.J. Ryan Construction comPany
and made a commenL that couldn't be heard on the taPe.
Rogar Fellows: fly name is Roger Fellows. I'm the general manager of
Dexter I'lagnetic Halerials and ue're a fabricator of...magnets and magnetic
materials. tle don't actually manufacture. We're more of a machining
shop . . .
Conrad: okay. Yes maam.
Resident: l.re oh,n a lot behind the railroad tracks... My concern ia, Idon't undersEand lhem very welI. Are you unloading...or on the side where
we're located?
Jack Rogers: No, it urould be on the...
Krauss: The railroad tracks runs thru here.
(Jack Rogers and the resident uere talking back and forth and their
discussion was not audible on the taPe. )
Al-Jaff: tle are requesting additional landscaping for the north Plus the
elevation is higher.
Resident: Lte're guite high except the lots next to us, thcydrastically. ...but that's not to say in thc lrlncertime uhenof the foliage... How about are they going to have 24 hour
unloading type thlng?
Roger Fellows: ].le would have truck shipments, actually our
department closes at 4:oo ao primarily... In fact r.r€ don'tof semi's-..
R€sident: Thank you ver)z much.
conrad: And your name just for the rGcord?
R€sid6nt:
Conrad: Thank you. Any other comment8?
drop
we lose a lot
loading and
shippi ng
even geL a lot
Addr ess
P Iahn i ngJuly 1a,
Commission MeeE i n9
1990 - Page 3
l''lar k ?: lty name is l,'tark... I live at 185...probably just 2 houses downfrom our new neighbors and I have a lot of similar lypes of concernsbecause the building that she's referring to that has the bis ventllationgrid on the side of the buildins, Ver-Sa-Til, rlhatever they call themselvesand on a quiet night you can tell if that buildins is... l.le used to keepour uindows open at night and now He don,t because it's rrr. Relativelyconstant but I do understand the fact that lre need industrial and I canaccept that as a businessperson. My concern, first of aII I'm curious hor^rfar that's going to be from the center line of the railroad tracks. r knowthere's that, whatever it is thaL makes the natural thing Lhere but that,snot particularry far from the rairroad tracks and rm rondering whether ornot the buildine is like right up to that? It isn't 9oin9 to be looattractive... In fact it's quite a bit a t,ays...
Jack Rogers:
. , .so you're
Conrad: Itbit.
Here
about
would be the back property line wiEh a 30 foot setback.a 1OO feet.
exceeds what our ordinance reguirenents would say by quite a
Mark: As far as the ventilation...The air conditioning units on top of thebuilding are there, if they're not...really cuts it dot.ln. f was going towrite a letter to Ver-Sa-Til that maybe if they just put Just one plank offencing there it would diffuse the noise up instead of out the Hay it'sgoing so that r.,as one question. Another question is, I was looking at thenorth side of thaL building. It appears that there r,ron,t be Iightins thereand there won't be doors or anvthing like that which would be acceptible.You know I think that's fine. I'd rather not do doors...Lighting that'salready quite bright. Is there anyh,ay of knouli ng that they're not thedrawings that will be Lhere are what may actually come to be...
Jack Rogers: t^,e're anticipating havingbuilding. . .
3 wi ndor.rs on the north side of the
Emm j. ngs : l.rhat about the
Jack Rosers: There are
Mar k: And you mentioned
You menLioned that?
Iishts? Any liehts on the
no lishLs on Che north side
there were some provisions
north side?
of rhe bui ldi ns .
for some landscapi ng?
Al-Jaff: Yes...more landscaping to the north.
I.lark: Ther€'s not a uhole heck of a lot of natural vegetation there. It,ssort of like where their house is and our house is, the vegetation movesfart.her east, northeast...and then uhen you come down a Iittle bit, pretty
soon there's nothing there ao the building will be risht there goingtoward,.. As long as He pay attention to lighting and the air conditioningunits on top of the building, I think your building may even knock down thenoise from the Ver-Sa-Til buiIding...
Jack Rogers made a comment that could not be heard on the tape.
P Ia nni n9
July 18,
Commission l,leeting
1990 - Page 4
Hark! How about, are you going to
coIIec!ion and vacuum cleaning and
my questions, thank you.
Conrad: Thank you.
hear i n9?
Erhart moved, EIlson secondedfavor and the motion carried.
equipment outside for
type of equipment. . .?
have
that
dust
That ansuers
oth€r comments? Is there a motion to close the public-
to close the public
The public hearing
hearing- AII voted in
xas clo6€d -
conrad: Joan, any comments?
Ahrens: tlell, I noticed a number of things missing out of the plans which
f was a IitEIe disappointed with. Under Iandscaping... Lhe landscaPing was
deficient in several areas. Under lighting, approve lishting locations... -
Signage, there was no signage on the plan. Grading, there's no grading
contours are shown on the plan. That's about it. And all of these are in
the conditions I understand from the staff rePort but it's difficult for me-
to come to any conclusions about the whole plan.
conrad: Paul, what's your policy on that ulhen there are things missing?
Krauss: Sharmin and I were just talklng about this. I h,as out of to*n
when this one came through. I guess had I reviewed Lhese, some of Lhese
conditions, al.I the conditions still would have been there but some of them-
trould have been combined. I knour the Planning commission has a concern
with the number of conditions... This plan is basically accePtable. It
ulasn't lhe best plan ure've ever seen but it's basically acceptable and wiLh-
the conditions that u,e've put on there, we think that h,e can resolve
everything. l.,lost of these things are fairly detailed. When r.le're
speci.fying the size of a valve oy somethins like that, that's fairly
detail.ed and that in no uay... l^le do uant more landscaPing. tle'd like to -
work that out with the applicant prior to the City Council meeting so
everybody sees what ule're getting and I think a lot of these Lhinss can be
resolved before it gets to Council
Ahrensr tlill we be seeing this agaln?
Conrad: Not unl€ss you table it. Okay, Jim.
tlildermuth: l.,ell I think the staff report pretty wel.l addresses aII the
Iand use aspects of the application. tlelcom€ to Chanhassen.
Roger Fellows: Thank you much.
tlildermuth: I like the front elevatlon
have a few questions regarding the typeare you going to do abouE chip disposal
the buildins. I guess I jusL
operation that you are. l.lhatyour metal machine operation?
Roger Fellows: I'm sorry.
of
of
of
Krauss: If you'd I i ke .
PlanningJuly 18,
Commission Meet i ng
1990 - Page 5
Roger Fel lows: Hostbut they're mater i a Iget more . , .
mater ials are more
u,e pr imari Iy srind
of our
wh ich ,
or
so
Iess not
w€ don 't
precious meta I sget ch ips . tte
l.ti Id6rmuth: Grinding.. .
Roger Fellows: Yeah. And we grind with coolants so it comes out as wet
and then we puII with a magnetlc separater, lle pull it out of these coolanttanks and most of those materials we store and h,e send back to the
manufacturers tha! get r€cycled because they're materials which have value.
So they're not thrown away. Essentially they are sent back and they'reprocessed.
t"li ldermuth: l.later based machine?
Roger FeI lor.rs: tlater based coolants , yeS .
t^,ildermuth: How about storagc tanks?
Roger Fellows: tle don't have any. You mean for the coolant itself?
t,i I der muth: RiSht.
Roger FeIIows: l.re use just floor mounted, they
Lanks. 20 gallons. . .
t^lildermuth: For each individual machinery? You
Roger FeIIows: tle don't have a central tank or
l.Jildermuth: That's aII I have.
Conrad: Br ian .
sit on the shop floor
don't have a
anything like
central?
that .
Batzli: So you
tech magnet kind
Roger FeI I ows:
don't do a
of thi ngs?
Yeah ne do.
but none of
lot with like the rare earth magnet kind of high
That's
that is,
axactly uhat re do.
all of that is then recycled and that'sBatz l i : okay,
done by the. . .
Roger Fellous: Yeah. Because it is a rare earth, or fairly valuable
mater ia I .
Wi ldermuth:
BatzIi: so
thi n9s?
Probably
you don 't
6. . .metal to begin with.
do a lot uith other toxic chemicals or EPA controlled
l^Jildermuth: You're a metal machining oPeration. l.;hat are you 9oin9 to doabout chip disposal? Are you going to be storing chips inside or outside
bi ns?
Roger Fellows: No. It's a very clean operation.
Batzli 3 The turn around area !t the north of the proposed parking ]ot, do
Lhey end up losing parking stalls by doing that?
Conrad r Annette .
EIlson: I agree with the previous comments that they're really lacking a
Iot of information. tJe've been realIy coming doun hard on people about
please present everything so that ul6 can see the landscaPe Plan. l.le can
see those types of things. So I gu€ss I just uant to tell staff Lhat I
guess I'd ]ike it whenever possible and I hope this kind of thins doesn't
repeat. I don't doubt that I could put my trust in you that uhen they do
show you the landscape plan and the grading thet I would trust yourjudgment. I just don't Iike the idea, like she said, that we don't get a
chance to see it and yet hre're approving it and they make some 6ort of
assumption tha! r.re did see the whole thing and ue really haven't so I don't-
see a problem with, except for that and I will probably approve it knowing
that I could trust you but let's not do this all Lhe Lime okay.
Conrad: Steve.
Emmings: I think we saw the ghost of Dave
over there. That uas Dave's pet peeve Has
Headla right there on his chair
incomplete applications.
Ahrens: I talked to him.
Batzli: If sh€ had asked about special fire department needs.
Plannins Commission l'leeting
JuIy 18, 1990 - Page 6
Al-Jaff: No. . .
Batzli: okay. In condition 11, talking about providing the city Engineer -
with calculations verifying storm s€wer design, runoff rat€ control, that
type of thing, I guess I'm ]ess concerned about that now that I know what
kind of Lhing they're doing inside the plant. I was concerned thaL thev
might need skimmers or something else if they're going to be getting runoff
from storage areas and things. In condition 14 I guess I'd ProPose that
not only do they provide the landscaping on the north Portion of the site
but also that that's submitted for staff aPProval . I'd like to see, those -
are my concerns. I'm glad that you Put it in the ProPosal that lre screen
people to the norlh even though they're Eden Prairites and they didn't see
fit to move into our community' that's okay. Last, I think I've alwavs
tried to include in these things where they're shouing exPansion sites, a
condition or someplace that, something that says that we're not looking at
lhe expansion and it's not approved if ue approve this. The subdivision
looks fine.
Emmings: I don't have anything to add. The only thine I'd change is very -minor on the subdivision reguest the request. I would say instead of theapplicant shall shour, I think what you mean is that the plat shall shou and
Lhen just to make it very clear what you're tslking about Lhere, I'd changeapplicant to plat
Planni n9JuIy 14,
Commission M€et i ng
1990 - Page 7
Batzli: The applicant shaII amend Lhe plat? tlhaLever.
Emmi ngs: Fi ne . Anythi ng L i ke that .
about - And I like Brian's change on
Just so it's clear whatthe landscapins too.
we're talking
Erhart: One question Sharmin. tlhen
be posted on driveway accesses?
did we start reguiring stop signs to
Al-Jaff: lrhenever there might be traffic on a busy street we recommendLhat Lhey be posted.
Krauss: I've done them on a few other
down in our
site plans
i ndustr ia I
that you've seen.
park. That's why I uasErhart : t"le don 'L have any
asking.
Krauss:
EI Ison:
No, on the new ones you will see it.
It's a good idea I Lhink.
Krauss: It's just one of those things that's not terribly costly. It,s asafety measure, I've uorked uith engineering deparLments that take itquite seriously that you just don't want people, especially people who areunfamiliar with lhe areas. Over Lhe road truckers might n€ed to pull outonto a public right-of-way without coming to a full. stop.
Ahrens r l^lhere's the stop sign?
Krauss: It'd be their driveway.on
endEl Ison: At the of their driveway so they have t.o s!op.
Conrad: I guess f agree wiLh Joan and AnneLLe on the number of
recommendations from the staff and it just rel.atea to urhat's missing. Ithink the only reason I uant to go along uith it is i! appears that staff,sreal comfortable with the control of the project and it doesn't seem likethe projecL's out of control buL normally I really don't like this manyvariations and like to see, especially in landscaping. Especially when itabuts a neighborhood. tlhether it be Eden Prairi€ or Chanhassenneighborhood. I really want to make sure that we're buffering theresidential commun i ty
AI-Jaff: Chairman Conrad, there is more existing landscaping out on thesite. I visited the sito twice. There is more than what they areindicatins on the plans and I did talk to the applicant and they indicatedthat they are going to preserve aII Ehe surroundlng landscaping or Lheexisting trees.
Conrad: Okay, good. I have no other comments. Is there a motion?
Erhart: t^lel] it's a detail . ].te don't have to get into it at this point.
That was the only thins I had. I asree with Brian's and Steve's minorchanges. I support the plan. It looks good.
Pla nn i ng
JuIy 18,
Commission Heet i ng
1990 - Page 8
tJildermuth: I move the PIanning Commission approve site
as shown on the plans dated June 18, 1990 subject to the
conditions l thru 18 and incorporating Brian's comments.
plan request #9O-6-fol lotr i ng
Conrad: Brian's comments?
Conrad: Is there a second?
Emmings: Second.
Batzlir Do we want to
existing vegetation on
a condition that they'lI preserve the
Tr ees?
include asthe site?
ElIson: Not if their
improves it.
Iandscape plan comp€nsates for it and maybe even
conrad: Are ther6 trees we want to preserve there?
Krauss: I'm sure there are and r^rhat, I just talked to Sharmin about
tJhat hre 'd li ke to do is xhen re wor k out trith them Pr ior to the Citv
council meetins uhere lhose tree preservation areas are' lre'II Lailor
condi tion .
ir.
that
conrad: Parenthetically, have we heard any other comPlaints about noise
from Ver-Sa-Ti I?
Krauss: No. This is the first I've heard of it.
l.le don't have a noise ordinance. l.reErhart: Do we have anytal ked about one but-
ordi nance?
Krauss: There was one proposed to the City council last october
and November and they decided not Co adopt one.
Erhart: That could be a potential problem.
Emmings: There are State regulations on that though too right?
Krauss: They'r6else does. It's
ver)z loosey goosey end th6y don't
tough getting them out here.
enforce them and nobody
Conrad: If there are ever complaints about noise,to caII City HaII in Chanhassen. tle don't know and
and do something immediately but Hhen we do, if we
occuring, u,e try to take some action and then againhistory. That helps us review problems.
I think it's really wise-it's not tha! we go out
have a history of thinss
we just need thats
l^li ldermuth: Regarding what Brian?
Batzli: submittal of the landscaping for staff approval. 14. r also had
an additional one. 19. That the proposed expansion set forth on the Plansaren't considered
PIanni ng
JuLy 18,
Commission Meet i ng
1990 - Page 9
Erhart: I could sure support addins as a standard condition, after somestudy, a noise level condition on aII lndustrial conditional use permits
because it potentially could become a real problem to neighborhoods.
Krauss: tle don't have an overall noise ordinance. you could add thaL asone of the performance standards for site plan review.
Emmings: Yeah, because iL might be something where they have a vent on oneside of their building and they can just move around the corner to theother side of the building and rnake a whole lot of difference.
t,ildermuth: Either that or direct the venting.
Emmings: Yeah, Hhatever.
Erhart: See right now if you've got a problem, the resident realry has noplace to 90 sinc€ the City doesn't have an ordinance. Now if ue had itlisted as a conditional use permit, then at least they could go back andhang their hat on something.
Wildermuth: You remember what happened with alI the noise ordinanceactivity.
Erhart: r k nor.l but it's something we courd do on our own as a conditionaruse... But I'd like to see staff do a little bit of studying what thelevel ought to be before we do that.
Batzli: Steve, you might knoH better than f but is something like thatconsidered a nuisance? Under the nuisance ordinance?
Emmings: I don't know. I knou one case where there was a fan on anelevator. Agricultural elevator and the State came out there, theneighbors across the street and it uas running al.I nisht and the neighborsacross the street complained. The State came out and made them change itrighL now.
conrad: Paul , it's probably a good subject to look into.
l,tark: I'm just curious if thines progross as I'm sure you hope th6y will,
when might somebody be breaking ground? Yet this year or n€xt year? l.lhatls the Lime table that a person is looking at?
Jack Rogers: J.le're Iooking to, we have...
Conrad: So this summer sometimo you'd like to? Therc's a motlon. It's
been seconded. Any more discussion?
ttildermuth noved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommendapproval of Site PIan Reguest *9O-5 as shown on the plane dated June 18,
199O subject to the following conditions:
1. Provision of trash storage enclosures for all outside trash storage.
PIanni ngJuly 18,
Commission Meeting
1990 - Page 10
Rooftop screening shall be submitted to staff for aPProval .
Provide one turnaround area at the north of the proposed parklng lot.
The parking ]ot drainage shall be modified to imPlement gutter
collectj.on and flow to catch basins on guLLer line at Lhe south end of
the parking lot.
The applicant shall submit a Erading plan indicating the existing and
proposed contours over the entire site including parking lot and drive
areas. Slope stabilization infornation shall also be Provided at aII
locations where slopes are greater than 3:1.
A fire hydrant shal] be located at the southeast corner of the ProPosed-buildins as shown on Attachment *2.
Fire DepartmenL connections are reguested as indicated on Attachment
*2-
A Post Indicator Valve (PIV) as indicated on Attachment *2.
Driveuay entrance grades shall be reduced Lo 7l or less and radius cut
information must be provided for revieul and aPProval by the city
Engineer and Fire Department.
The width of the westerly entrance, used primarilv for trucks shalI be
increased Lo 36 feet in uridth.
The applicant'6 engineer shall provide the City EnEineer with
calculations verifying storm sewer design and runoff raL€ control, and
water and sewer service design-
The applicant shalI obtain and comply r,liLh conditions of the tlatershedDistrict permit.
Provide 12 foot wide handicap parking stall. Curb cut may not encroach
inLo slalI.
Provide for staff approval landscaping on the north portion of the site
and sod area. AIso, all disturbed areas should be seeded and Type III
erosion control blanket installed. The detail should be lncorporatedinto Lhe new grading pl.an.
Financial guarantees for landscaping ehalI Le eubmitted to the City etthe time of building permit application.
The applicant shall submit a lightine plan and must demonstrate thatthere is no more than .5 foot candles of light from fixtures at theproperly Iine.
The applicant shall submit signage plans for City approval .
5
6
a
9
10 -
11-
12.
13.
14.
15.
15.
17.
2-
3.
4-
Planning Commission l.,leet i ngJuIy 1a, 1990 - Pase 11
14.The applicant shaII comply with the conditions of the conservation
easement locaLed on the northerly 2O feet of lhe property.
79.The proposed expansion area set forth in the plan is not being
considered as a part of this approval.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously-
Conrad: Is Lhere a motion on the subdivision?
Erhart: I'll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of theprelimnary plat request *9O-9 as shoun on the plat dated June 18, l99O
rewordi.ng this to state that the applicant shall amend the plat to show thetypical easements and so on and so on.
Conrad: Is there a second?
EI Ison: Second .
Erhart moved, ElIson secondod thaL the Planning Commission recommendapproval of Preliminary PIat Requegt S9O-9 Subdivieion, as shown on theplat dated June 18, 1990 subject to th6 folloring conditions:
1. The applicant shall amend the plat to show the typical easements 10foot south (front) and S feet on the north, east and west (sides). Theapplicant shall shor.r the 20 foot wide preservation easement.
All voted in favor and the notion carricd unanimously.
Conrad: This item will go to City Council August 13th? Sou nd right?Okay. Good. Thank you for coming in. tlelcome Lo Chanhassen. Thank youaII for coming in who had some comments on this item.
I.IETLAND ALTERATION PERI{IT FOR ALTERING/RE}IOVING VEGETATION IN A CLASS B
I.IETLAND LOCATEO TN CURRY FAR}IS SUBDIVISIq{, JOYCELYN HT,,GHES.
PubIic Present:
Name
Steve Ker n
Rob Royscatel
John Guy
Doug & Teresa Bearrood
5540 O€vonshire Dr lve
6450 Oevonshire Dr ive
632t1 T6ton
5490 Bretton l.lay
Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff r€port.
conrad: what's the rationale Jo Ann for the 3OZ?
Batzli: I like the so on and so on part.
€lss
Olsen: ]^le] I it was just , it
were going with how much can
Conrad: l.lhat's the functi on
conrad: okay, thanks. This is a public hearing.like to say anyLhing. You're welcome to or r.re'Il
OIsen: tleII it's serving
vegetation serves as.
as lat€r retention for the subdivision. The
conrad: IL's a drain?
olsen: It's alI connected.
conrad: And uhere does it drain to?
olsen: I'm not exactly sure rhich direction it goes. Ultimately it goes
inLo Christmas Lake. I'm not sure which direction. They all end up over
in christmas Lake. So yeah, they definitely clean the erater. The
vegetation takes a lot of lhe phospherous and all the fertilizers. It does
eventually end up in Christmas Lake and they are Planning that this...is
much better Lhan whaL it uas iust...
preserved the 7OU of the vegetation. Again we
be removed and have it still be functional .
of this particular wetland?
If the applicants woul d
Iist€n to other comments.
Teresa Bearrood: I think she basically said it alI for us
conrad: okay. Any other commenLs?
Steve Kern: Hy name is Steve Kern. I Live on 6540 Devonshire Drive. Ijust r.ranted to put in my Lhoughts. I hope Ehe approval goes through for
the folks. I feel that there would be enough vegetation to do the things
necessary that they talked about the wetlands do for th6 ar€a for our
r^rildlife. The 30? to 60Z progran 6€ems very reasonable and also nith all
Lhe wetlands in the community and Lhe lakes and things that ur€ have around
us, it do6sn't seem as though..,taking advantage of birds or things nesting
in some of the grass... Ther6's still plenty of grasslands around for
wildlife to live in and someone mentioned na)zbe safety but I feel that the
water can or cannoE be as dangerous as weeds in the {ater or not. Also,
most people enjoy the visual appeal of some open Hater. I think this
enhances the Chanhassen area by having some of the areas partly open Nater
instead of fully eovered.
conrad: Thank you. oLher comments.
Rob Royscetel : i'1y name is Rob Royscatel . I I ive at 6450 Devonshire . l,ly
concern is that I don'L knor if I really agree with the alteration for txoreasons. You talked about drainage and as you knour, this apparently usedto be a stream before this development urent in. I live up on like on Lheright hand side there right as the road comes into the development and
behind our house I don't think there's any standing water at aII. I gu€ss
I hear talk about open lrater and I saw the picture that she was taking outto give to you. I don't knou, is there still standing Hat€r back there
nOl^l?
Planning Commission Meet i ng
JuIy 18, 1990 - Page !2
PIahni ngJuly 18,
Commission Heet' i ng
1990 - Pase 13
Olsenr Are you talking in this area?
right when the road com€s in and bends from thatRob Royscatel: Yeah.
area right in Lhere.
I'm
Olsen: You've got the wetland vegetation. Nhether or not it's open h,aterin Lhere, I'm not exactly sure.
Rob Royscatel:
descr ib i ns?
Is th6re open h,ater nou, on the areas that you're
Olsen: Yes.
Rob Royscatel: Because I could understand in a year like this where theremight be open water where we have 3 times the natural rainfall. I don,t
know if it b,as that was 2 years ago or if it will be that way next year.
Again, I don't really see the benefit of having open Hater and I hear talkabout weeds and unsightly weeds. To me cattails and those type of thingsare not why I bought the land. So my first point is, is there really adrainage problem and what purpose do these things serve and I don't pretend
to be a biologist or uhatever. A p€rson that {ould understand it but the
uray it was to begin with is it was a stream and I don't know if there,spools there now or not but if it needs to be open Hater, then f can
understand that but I would suggest that the ureeds would help to keep theuater clean and Lhe r,reeds are not unsightly but I like, that's my owninterpretation. The second point I want to bring out is I've alreadyeluded lo and that is that there's a lot of natural beauty in this area.l.,e're not Iiving in l,tinneapolis. h,e're living in Chanhassen and that's whyI moved out here. If I would like to have my yard back into another yard Iwould have moved to Hinneapolis or somewhere closer to town. l^,hat I likeabout my area is that there's a few weeds, cattails and birds and natureand everything else in the backyard and I don't think there is any wat€r in
my backyard. tlhat concerns me is if ure make a change here, and you're
talking ebout going into rhere the r,Jater hits or having some open r.reter,
whaL's to say that the neighbors behind my plot of land might just come allthe way through and take everything out because there probably isn't any
seanding uater there.
Steve Kerns: If there's standing xater or not, you can only take out acertain percentage of Lh€ vegetation or you pond a uetland area. So Lheytake out let's say IOZ oy 2OZ- That almost limits the surrounding homes
from ever taking out anymore so uhat they do probably limits everyone elsefrom ever...
Rob Royscatel: The other thing that concerned me a little is, if you couldput the picture up of the proposed alteratlon. The one that shows Lhe brayit is lying currently and wher6 it's proposed and so on. tlhen I Look atthis picture and I take a Iook at the total area of what uas there and now
u,that's been removed, that's far in excess of 3OZ. It doesn't take any math
major to figure that ouL. It's mor€ like 50 or more. If you're saying
3OZ, I see the line being or the vegetation being halfway up from where itis or even more. Just take the total area there and take out 3OZ. That to
Planning
July 18,
Commission l.leec i n9
1990 - Page 14
conrad: Thanks for your comments. other comments.
John Guy: John Guy. I live on the conservation easement that goes on toP -
of the hill and I had a chance to see this area tonight. Listening to
oLher comments kind of turned out a couPle quesLions for me. The 30 some
rule would make sense to me but there's a eouple questions I'd like to ask -staff. As long as it's saying thaL they can go to a certain line. t,hat
I'd feeL uncomfortable with is if they can in fact 9o into the pond itself
and clean it up. I'm not a naturalist but iL seems to me like that could
in fact damage it. As hre're standing in the backyard this evening, I saw a
couple of birds thaL I didn't recognize. I know there's Ltlo red and
blackbird nests right through that area and I woul.d hate to think that we
could make some alLerations to thaL area and damage some of those habiLats. -
A question for staff. How...live around an area, does fertilizer cause
concern for the...preservation or anyLhing like tha! and can r.re in facL do
somethi.ng Lo attack that?
Olsen: The best protection is keeping alI the vegetation that you can.
The wetland vegetation.
John Guy: In the wetland. But if r.re put a finished lot right up to the
edge of the pond is that what t und€rstand?
olsen: night. Again, *e prefer to keep them all
and even wiLh the Council H€ rere given direction
And so that's where we came up h,ith.
natur a Lto r{or k
completely around
out a compromise.
John Guy: And that's because of the encroachment of the people on the
other side... That's taking advantage of the situation.
me is a lot more than 30. l'laybe it's to scale, I don't know but in any
case what I see as the owner in Lhis cas6 or both owners would like to get
it as close to the lot line as they can. I don't know where this 302-602
is coming from. Any percent to me is too much. I guess what I'm concerned-
about is setting precedent. Maybe lt works xith this Piece of land, I
don't know but like I said, behind the property that I own, there isn'L
standing h,ater so what's to say that you don't have another meeting next
month for somebody that would Iike to take the r^rhole thing out behind my
area and if one of th€se plots goes aII the h,ay across this ravine that's
now there, it's going to look kind of goofy. If one does, you might as
weII do them al] and my point to begin with is that I like this area
because I don't have two yards coming back to back where I Iike it utith
h,hat they'd call unsightly weeds. That to ne is nice. I Iike cattails. I
Iike birds. I Iike nature
Krauss: There's some truth to that but there's morc to it than Chat. On€of the things we're dealing uith is ule don't have an official map that
shor.rs where wetlands are and some of those folks, we do have a map chat
shows where some of the larger ones 8re and some of those folks actually
contacted the city and saw that map and assumed they uere on safe ground
and unfortunately they're not because our uetlands ordinance has a much
wider definition of what a wetland is. t^le're taking a number of measuresto hopefully do a more comprehensive study of our wetlands in the next year
P Ia.nn i nsJuly 18,
Commission Meet in9
1990 - Page 15
so that we do have a comprehensive map. t^,e'd Iike to update our ordinances
so they're better, more current and use better techniques and judse lhequalitx of wetlands. l.,e're trying to develop ways of putting home buyers
on better notice. A lot of these folks when they got their survey, itdoesn't say e,etland back there. It just says drainage easement. Noh, f
know it's a wetland because I know uhat ure approved on the plat but theydidn't know so I think honestly there tas a sincere breakdown of
communication there and yes, some people did build uithout permission.
That's true but a lot of people really didn't understand Hhat they $,eredoing. ft's not a situation we like and we don't uant this to set aprecedent for other ones where we've been able to hold the line but given
everything that's happened here, it Has feIL Lhat some sort of a compromiseis reasonable. tJe fel.t that N€ should work our a compromise, we brought infolks from DNR and Fish and tlildlife to say urhat can ue reasonably workwith. l^Jhat can we do that would least damage the integrity of the wetlandand that's uhere that 3OZ guideline came up.
John Guy: Is it 3oz of the perimeter of the whoLe area?
Olsen: It's 3OZ of the perimeLer. tle u,ould prefer that it's kind ofthroughout. That they have vegetation. Some open area of vegetation.tlhat happened with this case is that almost over half or 'about half theperimeter is park which will always remain.
Emmings: He's asking how deep is the perimeter and I have Lhe samequestion. tlhat does perimeter mean?
olsen: oh . Around .
Emmings: I know it means around but how deep? How far?
Olsen: That's wher€ the 50? and say
and you can 9o 3OZ of that and then,
maybe say...Iike 1OO feet across andout so you had 50? open brater. If uethere's 5OZ open surface waLer - Thatthe surface area and then hou far you
you have vegetation completely around
what ure're saying is that you couldyou could go in 30, however it came
remove vegetation so you have, sois so, what you do is you kind of get
can go in-
John Guy: tlhen you figure, hotl far in is the water?
Rob Royscatel: The water is right above that line.
olsen: Yeah, it's aII the way around.
Rob Royscatel: Ther€'s a retaining wall uhere those solid Iines are.
John cuy: ...how low
u nusua I .
that water typlcally is? I mean this year is so
Olsen: Right now it's pretty much all cattails in the open h,ater. Theulater, Lhe ordinary high uater mark.
P lann i ng
Jul.y le,Commission Meeting
1990 - Pase 16
olsen: -..surveyed the ordinary high
water is and they do have outlets...
Christmas La ke.
water mark.,.and that's where theI think it eventually goes to
Rob Royscatel:
uP...
l.lould you repeat that? You said the drainage tiles are set
olsen: There's an outlet so the xater siII only get to a certain Ievel
before the water sLarts going out.
John Guy: t.Jell this sounds like a political issue rith the City Council
but Lhe issue of compromising because someon€ else made a mistake. tle
should be working to reclaim the wetland areas. Not drain them out- I
don't have a problem if the experts say that this Hon't affect and endanger -this u,etland area. This homeowner should be alloued to do something to
help finish their backyards but if it endangers Lhe wetland area, jus!
because somebody else made a mistake, I'd have an objection to that
I don't know who my Citv Council is. I moved here in l.larch so maybe I need
to make a call to my politician.
conrad: The l'1ayor's in listening to you right now. Any other comments?
Steve Kerns: I just want to say that in this flyer that they handed out to
some of the residents, r.rhere it talks about what fill could take place and
what couldn't, it's pretty specific about but only when it will not have a
negaLive adverse affect upon Lhe ecological characteristics of Lhe wetland.
It goes on to 5 different points. It's kind of shouing the ordinance andthings set up within your ordinance so that Lhings like maybe some rock
that's not going to harm anything. Things still drain and maybe just
remove some weeds. We understand the concern about fertilizer being up
close but again am I to understand they're only able to remove vegetation
wiLhin their property Iine?
conrad: That would be the case -
Steve Kerns: So it's still -. -
John Guy: But that property line gocs deep within that pond. In fact it
may 9o aII Lhe uay through it.
O]sen: Yeah, this shous the propert)u Iine.
John Guy: And that shaded area is in fact the pond.
O]sen: That's where the ordinary high water mark is.
Rob Royscatel: ...the opposing property Iine on the other side com€s aIIthe uay until it gets to our property line and there's a very large section -
thaL is wetlands. I guess I'm concerned that they could come all the way
up the side.
Olsen: tlith the wetland vegelation.
Planning
JuIy 18,
Commission M6et, i n9
t99O - Page !7
Rob Royscatel.: Haybe
c I ear ed?
not noh, with the 3Oz...but you 'r€ saying 60Z can be
Olsen: The area that he's describing is another issue too where that wasnot wetland to begin with and now it is. It's Caken on the qualities of awetland r.rith the drai nage . l.rith the new development and that 's a wholeother issue. tJe have to adjust at some time now do ue apply those sameruIes.
Steve Kerns: Do ure have any
when they purchased the Iand
idea hour many people are aware of uere awarethat c€rtain ar6as were uetland?
them official.ly mapped?I don't understand the
oLsen: I don't have the exact number. I've taLked with people who werenot aurare and I've also talked Hith people uho elere aHare.
Rob Royscatel: All I can speak of is from my personal experience and whenI was about to purchase this piece of property, it ulas made very cl6ar to
me that the entire back area as xell as these other turo that Ne'redescribing now are wetlands and will be forever protected. And I uras eventold about someone who already received a fine for pulling a few cattailsand lhat to me indicated yeah, it's 9oin9 to be enforced. It's in place
and obviously they do advise when they broke the law they got fined.Again, I can't speak for anyon€ else that purchased land in this area butit was made very clear to me that this was an ordinance in effect and itwould be enforced.
Emmi ngs: l.Jho told you that?
Rob Royscatel: The seller for Curry Farms.
John Guy: t^,eII I second that, I thought it was very clearly to me. Ididn't have an attorney to revieu everything so I'm not sure if there,s
some legal document that in force enforces this but it ulas clearly
communicated and aII Lhe plats Lhe develop€r gav€ us marked out clearlyuhere this area r.,as and conservation easement... There's no ambiguity in
my mind. Haybe 2 yeays ago when they started, maybe there uas.
Conrad: Do wetlands get recorded against a parcel or a plat?
Olsen: Right .
conrad: They do but they only do rhen re've got
Or how do you take the developer's subdivision?process of recording.
Olsen: tlell, Curry Farms kind of, this oneof the lots and why it uasn't, I don't knoul
it lrasn't recorded against eachthe anstrer to that.
Conrad: t^tho's job is it to do that?
olsen: t.tell, it's in, Planning's partly responsible. tle tell what's Lo berecorded and a lot of times it's just e process.
Planning Commission Meet i ng
JuIy 18, 1990 - Pase 18
Emmings: But no!., we've got a new system. This would not happen today.
Doug Bearrood: I'm Doug Bearrood and I'm the owner of one of the lots r.,ith
the wetland. I'd just iite to say ule bought our lot...we bought in 1988
which...and uhen we bought it was open water. There i\,ere no cattails.
Nothing and we know Lhat, u,e never heard from the seller that this was a
wetland or that this uas something that we couldn't alter and we haven't...-
change eiLher. All of a sudden in 2 years lt's drasLically changed and now
we're basically on a marsh which isn't so bad. tle do like the birds and
stuff buL it's not like when t.te purchased the lot, that lrasn't Hhat ure sau.-
That's not what ue're getting nouJ.
Conrad: I knovJ r^,hat you're saying .
Teresa Berrood: I'm Teresa Berrood and I again have that same ]ot. Nhat
we want to do with it is not r€mov€ every single catLail. AII ue blant to
do is clear it out somewhat so ue can at least see the brater. Last summer -we had a family of ducks Lhat...the cattails and u,e uould just Like to
remove some of them. Like I said, we wanted to remove lrhat lras allowable.
The 3oz. tte have planned already. t.le have sod 9oin9 doun to about 4 feet -from the start of the cattails and we r.rant to put wildfloHers, some kind of
ground cover down there. I mean I don't Hant Lo see my fertilizer run off
into the pond and then into Christmas Lake either but all we uanted to do
was clean it up some. I don't oant to go through the work of making it
Iook like when we purchased it but ue just uant it cleaned up a little bit
so ue don't look at it and sa)z nice swamp. I mean it eras a pond when we
bought it and that's the ua)r we want it. tle're going to follow guidelines.-
I mean I guess I really feel like ue have sat here and waited for quite awhile and have been very patient and Dot gone down and ripped other things
out like some of the other residents in Curry Farms have because ue filled -out our forms. Filled out our applications and we're trying to follow therules and if Fish and 1., i ldl if e HanLs us to do something, that 's r.rhat we 'I I
do and if they're recommendine 3Ot, that's uhat Council should approve.
Conrad: Thank you. Any oLher comm€nts? Is there a motion to close thepublic hear i ng?
Batzli moved, Erhart secondcd
favor and the notion carried.
to close the public haaring- All voted in
The public hearing t.las closed.
Erhart: The people that removed the material before, what
about here? Removing. Is that mo$Iing? Is that poison?
are re
Are you
tal ki ngtalking
olsen: No. Now r.,€ specifically do iL against each lot. tle €ven have a
conservation easemenL. l.le have conditions. I mean as each subdivision
goes through, we add more as we learn from past mistakes and curry Farms
unfortunately rlas one of the first on€s to really, where xe really
converted wetlands into storm waEer ponds that h,€re goin9 to be backyards
and we made some mistakes. tre really protected the Iarger Class A wetland -
and then we had that, an easement over the other ones wlth that conditionthat they could not be altered but I don't know.
conrad: stiII a public hearing. Any oth6r comments?
Planning Commission Heet i ngJuIy 1a, 1990 - Page 19
about using a backhoe?
Olsen: I'm not exactly sure how they did it. They did it though and it'snow, there's sod and stone around it. I don't know.
Steve Kerns: I just want to say that over by my, the xetland on myproperty, the bulldozer that graded our lot backed up inLo the wetland anddug it out while that vegetation u,as... That's where thaL little piece is
moved here. And then we were told that ue could sod over the grading which
was about 15 fe6t under the protected wetland edge. So I'm just saying toothat part of that Look place just by the fact that it uas not controlled bythe person grading the lot. It lrasn't a controlled situation.
Erhart: okay. Hy point is, I mean if this is set. The soils are u,et h6reand if they haven't gone in and changed the e.Ievation, the only way they'regoing to keep the caLtails from grouring back in there, they're going to
have to continue to mow it unless they put so many rocks and plastic orsomething. Is there a line involved here and can you walk out to thoseIots that have been altered and say this is the line that you can't go
beyond? Is there a line someplace on some drawing?
Olsen: Nell r.le went out and surveyed where the ordinary high uater mark
was and yes you can see r.rhere some of the lots have filled betow that and
have sodded or put in a few stones.
Erhart: Okay, what are we talking? t,haL's the law here? The ordinaryhigh water mark or is there an easement line someplace that didn't get
r ecor ded?
Olsen: There's an easement that,dotted Iine, that's the easement.
Erhart: tlhat does that €asement
Olsen: That 's r.rhat went over th€there's going to be possibly over?
I don't know if you can aeeThis is an easement line.
meen?
ordinary, the ponding area
it but the
and where
Erhart: Anything beyond thaL line they're not supposed to mow?
Krauss: No, it's where the expected flood elevation of that pond is asdescribed by a sLraight line that a surv€yor shotrs so it doesn'L exactlyfollow the iontour.
Erhart: tlhat does the easement 6ay? Ihat doee it say? I can't do rhatwithin there?
Krauss:You
But
YeP .
can't fill down there. You can't build doun there.
Erhart:
Krauss:
you can mow doun there?
Pl a nni n9
Julv 18,
commission HeeL i ng
1990 - Page 20
Erhart: Alright so they can mow and they could put rocks in so then h,hat, -lhen ue're down to the ordinary high r.raLer mark. Th€n that is the linethat says you can't mow beyond that and put in rock?
Olsen: l.lhere the uetland vegetation.
Krauss: The ulet I a nd contour
Erhart: That has never been intended to be on an easement or recorded
against the lot.
Krauss: tlell that's vrhat ue want to do nou.
Erhart: l.le do that now in other areas? ule record the ordinary hish water -mar k aga i ns! .
Olsen: [.,1e record an elevation.
Erhart: can we do that now on these lots?
Krauss: l^,e have no authority to go back in and do that.
Olsen: You do that when they're platted.
Batzli: Sure you do. It'd just be a taking.
Olsen: tlel l yeah .
Krauss: You can do it as a condition of...
Erhart: tlhat are you trying to do noH? Are you intending to go in and
maintain this, keep cattails from growing again? Do you plan on mor.ling
that area or how do you plan on doins that? They're going Lo come backyou don't keep hacking. tlhat you're saying is you're proposing to keep
hacking below the ordinary high water mark and thaL's uhat Lhe Fish andtlildlif e is saying is that's okay? Is that?
to
if
Erhart: But I tend to agr€e wiLh the other tuo arguments here. The r.lay it
sounds to me. If there's clearly a line that h,e can say that's the ordinaryhigh water mark. If you can 9o out Lher€ and surv€y off on those lots andif by exception is the only uay that they will naintain mowing, then whatyou ought to just say hey, you cen't touch anything belou that and alright
so you mowed it now but it's going to grow back. Let it grow back and cell
it, that's it. The intent was that anyLhing belor.r the ordinary high uater
mark was supposed to be left in it's naturel condition and even though it
uras disturbed, you now have to allow it to grow back in it's naturalcondition. To me that seems too simple. itaybe I'm missing something here
but it seems compared against aII the work that you've done on this, it
seems like a simple solution. trhat am I missing? I don't know.
Krauss: They're not saying it's a uonderful idea. They're saying if you
were going to uork out a compromise, here's how to do it.
Planning Commission Heet i ng
JuIy 18, 1990 - Page 21
Ellson: The fact that they got direction from Council to try to do thisthins.
Erhart: No, they already did it.
Conrads No, these people haven't. Another group already did. These folksare trying to xork through the process.
ErharL: I understand but I'm talking about the first two people that wentin and did it. They didn't get any direction and it seems to me that ifthey basically are told okay, you did it but now you can't go maintain it,that eventually most of it will just 9r o9, back to cattails. Isn't that
what HilI happen? So then why don't r.,e just say you can't touch it
a nymor e?
Krauss: trlelI you could but that wouldn't achieve their goals.
Erhart: I knoul uhat their goals are but you've also got tr4o people herethat they object and guite frankly when you 9o in and develop a
neighborhood, if they uanted to make this thing into an open pond, theyshould have dug it deeper. Essentially any wat€r that you've got that'sIess than 3 feet deep uill grow, it's just going to happen and somebody,
whoever designed the neighborhood should have made a decision at that time.
You either make these ponds 5 feet deep or not and then to 9o back and doit now uould take the collective agreement of everybody that's got Iand onthat pond as opposed to trying t.o do it one at a time. It doesn't make
6ense to try to do this one at a time. If they $rant a pond, I'm notagainst a pond. But then it should take everybody collectively ought toget together and say Iet's all build a pond and I'm okay Nith that too.
Krauss: I guess that's sort of the ray €'ve b6€n trying to handle this.the one that you're not reviewing tonight. The one where there was a lotof disruption, what they're trying Lo do and Jo Ann can corr€ct me if I'm
Nrong, is get their act together because it's probably about 15 homeownersthere. I would guess 7 or 8 of uhich have already altered the thing and
we've told them they've all got to come to some understanding as to wherethe open Hater 's going to be. Hot{ it's going Lo ba maintained. t^lho's
9oin9 to set th€ shoreline. Creating open water in a Class B wetland is
often advanLag€ous and in principle something r.re've allowed before because
it allows better habitat value. l.le're kind of backing into that I guess
with this.
Erhart: They're not croating op6n water here from what I understand. t,hat
they're doins is you 're mowing down cattails.
Doug Bearrood: l.Je're creating open water for ua to see.
Erhart: You're cutting doun a visual barrier.
conrad: They're also creating open water.
Erhart: Houl are you 9oin9 to do that? You'd have Lo moH under uat€r. I
don't understand how you're creating open water.
Planning Commission Heet i n9
July 18, l99O - Pase 22
Doug Eearrood: When you puII the cattails out.
Erhart: They'll grow right back unless you continue to do that.
Conrad: Just as a footnote and you kneul I'd have to jump in on this one
sooner or Iater but Chanhassen spent a lot of time trying to protect
uetlands. t,e put in our own welland ordinance. tle probably spent 3 years
of about 7 people's time trying to figure out hot to pr€serve Clsss Buretlands. HoN to improve them. How to maintain them so a lot of energy
and we as a Planning Commission probably 6pend 2 hours every 2 weeksreviewing permits just like yours. A lot of people w€re deceived in termsof what they thought they were bumotivation. tlhat our studies didto us and we got expert testimony
experts and those wetlands did aa whole lot of things which we're
was one of those things. And wetlands, as you start taking out cattails,cattails are probably one of the best vegetative bodies to clear outpollution. Grass does nothing. Grass is literally nothing in the way of _pollution. A cattails has a lot of fiber. It really captur€s pollution
and all the fertilizers ue put in so Ee've spent a uhole lot of time tryingto figure out hox to maintain quality lrhen lre have all this developmentcoming into Chanhassen and so, in a 2 minute summary and I don,t Hant toget too far into it, that's uhat ue're playing with. Every Z Peeks re areplaying the role of trying to pres€rv€ and rnanage uetlands and within thelisht of our ordinance trithout s€tting precedence. Uithout saying hey, if -they can do it, urell then as soon as you break an ordinance and then youbasically don't have an ordinance anymore b€cause it can be contested. Thesecond you have an exception to it, then Lhe nex! party can say wellyou've allowed an exception. Therefore you no longer have that rule unlessit was a unique si.tuation. So I uranted to just give you that background.That's where ue're coming from. A whole Iot of background in Chanhassenbut Tim, go on
ying. A lot of people have monetary
and aII the folks that came in and talked-
from xhat we perceived to be the realIot of things for Chanhassen. It creaLedtrying to preserve so, and water quality -
Doug Bearrood: f understand how the argument goes. From our side, it
seems a little unfair that the Curry Farms developer didn't teII us thesituation. When we saw Ehe Iot and bought it, our first home, that's what -we expected to have back there and it changed on us.
Conrad: l.le understand thaL. tre know uhere you're coming from.
Erhartr I understand that but it certainly mak€s s6nse to me, if I had aIot, I'd try to geL all Lhe neighbors togeth€r and get a plan that ue aII
decided to do and pay for it and get it done.
Teresa Bearrood: AII the neighbors... I mean Che other two neighbors thatare basically affected by this...2 up on that draxing, they have decided to-do nothing. They don't Hant anything done and 6 on the drawing also, they
have decided to do nothing. It'6 just 4 and 5. The Hughes and us that
b,ant to do anything so it kind of has, I m€an that pond, aII 5 families
have decided what they l.lant to do and He're the ones that u,anted to use...
Plannine Commission I'leetingJuly 14, 1990 - Page 23
Erhart: Yeah, I've got one other thing. The people that arethis, are you objecting to this particular Lhing specificallyobjecting to the concept of doing this?
objecting toor are you
Rob Royscatel: Personally this particular location does not affect ourland at aII. I'm objecting to the concept.
John Guy: I share that uhole
6341 TeLon on top of the hillnot on that pond .
conservation area wi thbut in general I share
these owners. I 'mthe general area,I m
Ahrens: ft's on the park right?
Erhart: Again, I am not against improving xetlands but it seems to me that
we were going against this if ue're seLting up a situation ulherecontinualLy year after year go in and disturb what we have set aside as auletland. That's I guess the problem I'm having with it. I have no problem
in getting rid of some of the cattails and open water. I think that couldbe an improvement.
Kreuss: Fundamentally the right way
normally done is that urhen it freezes
You dig a hole 5 feet deep.
to do
over
that is the wayyou 90 in there
it 'sa backhoe.
that
with
Erhart: Right, so go ahead Steve.
Emmings: It's hard to know Nhere to start. Really what you're proposing
here to me flies in the face of everything we've been doing and I thinkthis is kind of what Ladd said. Haybe I'm just repeating what he said butthis is a uetland. Our policy does not aIlox alteration of u,etlands. It
never has. l.le've made people that have altered wetlands go back and take
those alterations out. tle just got don€ doing that on Lotus Lake. Putting
in a garden in a wetland is not improving the xetland. I've never heard of
that kind of a proposal before. It sounds nice. I've got nothing againstgardens. I have one myself but doing it in a wetland is just, that is not
an improvement to a wetland. Now, moving on a little bit.
Erhart: Can I clarify one thing? tle do allow improvements.
conrad: tle do allow improvements. Yeah.
Emmings: And like Tisr said, if this was a plan where over in this otherblock here ulhere you've got a wetland completely surrounded by privateproperty ou,ners and they came in and said this looks this way now and weuant to creale some open water over here and have some natural ar6as over
here and dig this thing up and we're aII in agreement rrith this plan and
what r.ras deemed to be an improvemenL to that Hetland by the Fish andtJildlife Service and stuff, I'd be aII for it. Just narrowing down to this
Erhart: Okay, and you're not talking about this particular pond? You'retal king about .
John Guy: Right.
Planning
July 18,
Commission Heet i ng
1990 - Page 24
conrad: No alteration unless improvement.
Batzli: Really but if
m is l eadi ng - It's kind
improve a portion or ad
do this.
fact they were, improvement might
no net loss. I mean if they were
wetlands somepLace else, you might
INof
d
be a little bitgoing to
allow them to
Emmings: Yeah. we've done that.
Batzli: Yeah.
Emmings: And then the other thing is, I don't know why we can't go back
and record the fact. t,hy can't r.re 9o back and record this against thoseproperties so that at least the person that buys from these folks has some
notice thaL Lhis is something that was on the plat? I don't know uthy we
can't do that.
Krauss: ].lell I'lI defer it to the attorneys amongst us but we've hadproblems recording things because the owners change hands and we don't have
the right to record something against somebody's property.
Ahrens:you can't do it.
Ahrens:
E I Ison;
No,
You
No.
Not
Emmi ngs :can't do it?
even a little note in the file?
Ahr6ns:First of
that you
Unless the City is r.rilling to 9o in and take some court action.alI it's all registered land. It's all torrenced land which means-
have to 9o in a proceedings subsequent and ask Lhe court to make a
one a little bit mor€, even if you uere going to apply the 7o-3o rule, it
r,rould seem to me that no individual Iandowner ought to get to do more than
3OZ on his individual lot. These tlro are exhausting the capacity to do 30?
of the perimeler almost on their two Iots and that's not right because thenyou're taking, number one you're taking away the potential for otherproperty owners to do it. tlhether half of it's in Park or not I think is
irrelevant because they may hrant to sometime in the future and they won't
be able to. Number LHo, it keeps the amount that you alter down to a
minimum so I can see that you would hrant to clear out to be able to see to
uater. That has some appeal and makes 6ome sense. If Fish and tlildlife
says that you can remove 3oz of the petimeter, although I'm really unclear -about how this formula works Hith ar€a and stuff. That is not at aII
obvious to me 6nyr.ray but if by clearing 3 feet of cattails on 3oz of my
frontage gives me a view of the open urater, that doesn't seem unreasonable
to me as }ong as Fish and tJildlife says that that's not detrimental to the -
wetland. But, going aII the way back, our Policv's alwavs been no
alteration and I don't see any reason to change it.
Emmings: Un.Iess it's an improvement. And this is not an imProvement in
the sense that ule've always used that uord.
Planni ngJuIy 14,
Commission Meet i n9
1990 - Page 25
determination to alLow or a decision to allow you to record documentsinvoluntarily against people's land. The courts are somexhat relunctant todo that understandably. I mean otherwiee xe could aII face that situation
so no, Lhey u,on't let you do that. As a matter of fact, Curry Farms notonly forgot to record the easements but they didn't record any of the
Covenants and RestricLions against the land and on they're on the phone
begging people to turn over their Certificates of Title so they can dothat. of course a lot of people said no.
Emmings: l.rell brhat recourse do xe have against a
what he's supposed to do?
developer who doesn't do
EIlson: Slap on the Hrist.
olsen: It's getting kind of late. Again too you know we alxays have the
development contract or u,e can r.rithhold building permits.
Olsen: ...should go through,y€s ue can record.
to the developer? From now on uill the CityEmmi ngs: l"lhy do we leave this
be taking care of Lhat?
Krauss: Steve, that r.ras one of my original guestions here and when f cameon, when I started talking to Roger, our City Attorney, and he's got aproposal for his office to handle the recording of aII plats and easements(hich I'm pretty sure He're 9oin9 to go rdith.
Emmings: Yeah. I can't vote for this.
Conrad: Anything else Steve?
Emmings: No.
Conrad; Annette .
ElIson: I can't either. I can't agree at all to compromise our wet-Iandordinance. It's a terribly dangerous precedence. I can understand lheposition that the Cit)z Council must have been in to try to compromise to
make people happy but I think it's way too lmportant. Lik€ you said, urejust told people who had loosestrife which is 1O times worse than a cattailout there, that they had to build a board to get out onto their lakefrontage, It's not unusual for somebody to move in next to a lake and ayear laLer it looks different than it did before and it's aI[ part of b6insnext to natur€. I don't think the argument of I didn't knor cannecessarily be used and then say iL's okay. Then if you don't know, you're
okay but if you do know, because the argument, you're going to startadvising people Lo just claim you don't know and you'Il be able to gec aslap on the wrist and take off or something like that so I think it's anature conservaLion m€asure. If you poIIed the city, everybody uould uanL
Emmings: Does he ohrn more Iand in this town that he wants to develop?tlell he's got gigantic developments here but I Has just r.rondering if he has
any more land because if he comes in again I sure want to talk to him.
it, It's like Ladd said, we're developins so big. One of the things we
NanL to preserve is ulater cuality and this is the strongest thing ue can doto try to do that and I think the City Council could reconsider of thinkingof a compromise or someLhing because iL's too dangerous. I can't imagine
somebody coming back later and not using it as a precedence. So I'd say
absolutely not.
Batzli: I have very little additional to add from the proceeding two
comments. I think if they uere going to improve the uetland I'd be HiIIinsto Look at it. I also, I couldn't approve it with these conditions
because r don't understand the perimeter concept along ulith steve and Ithink it's too ambiguous to approve eith the current conditions.
Conrad: J im?
tlildermuth: I have almost nothing to add except to say that I'm just
amazed that Fish and tlildlife was willins to compromise. I think that'spretty surprising. one recommendation I guess I would have would be to the-
residents around this thing, urould be to come in possibly with a plan Loraise the level if they uant open xater. To raiae the level of the uaterin the r"retland. That might b€ a possibility.
Erhart: Raise the outlet IeveI?
tli ldermuth: Right .
Erhart: Yeah.
John Guy: ...xhere it drains to but I currently have a water problem in mybackyard. Raising the level may or may not affect that. I don't know.
l.lildermuth: tle]I I think that would be something that uJould have to be
Iooked at by aII the agencies involved including the City Engineer.
Krauss: what you typically do though to achieve open lrater is )rouout below the exisLing floor of the wetland. That has no bearingthe hydraulics of the pond because the outlet's still the same but
does is Ehe material just can't root there.
e x cavate-at aII on
what it
Erhart: l.lhat controls the leve of this? Didn't you aay it uas a culvert?
Erhart: A culvert or Hhat? trho set, is there any reason why you couldn'trais€ that culvert 3 feet?
Krauss: l.le I I right now it would be very difficult to raise it because it
comes out underneath str€ets and you've got to move the whole thing,
Krauss: Yes you can but then you start...
Planning Commission Heet i ng
July 18, 1990 - Page 26
Kraussr There's an ouClet.
Erhart: You can turn them. Put a riser in the end.
Planning Commission MeetingJuly 18, 1990 - Page 27
tliLdermuth: Either way.
out the maLerial , you 're
l.,hether you raise the level or you excavate it
creating oPen waEer.
conrad: Joan?
Ahrens: 1,e11 I have very few comments. Very little to add after the good
comments that have been made but I live in curry Farms and I Iive on a
wetland. I was told when I moved into the property that we .lived on a
wetland and I know Lhat everyone else that lives, thers's abouE t houses
who live on the wetland I live on and there's been absolutely no alteration
except for one homeowner uho's dumped a truckload of rocks onto his
backyard to try to improve, I don't knou if he thinks it's improving the
uetland but he's trying to get the weeds down. The weeds have grown up
through the plastic and through the rocks and it ]ooks pretty terrible.I think that because Lhe City made a mistake or maybe made a mistake is no
reason for us to continue in our wayward ways. I think that's a pretty
ridiculous reasoning. CerLainly parents ttouldn't aIlow thaE uith theirchildren- I don't know why we should allow that either. I can't go alongwith the staff recommendation at aII. I don't Lhink a political compromise
is appropriate and that's all I have to say.
conrad: okay, thanks Joan. I'd just like to thank the Hughes' for comingin. I know it's frustrating to hear us talk Iike this and you're probably
a Iittle biL irritaLed b,ith uhat ue're saying. Are you the Bearrood's?
Doug Bearrood: Yes.
Conrad: I'm sorry. I can pronounce Hughes. I can't pronounce your Iast
name. That's why, okay. But again, I thank you for coming in. Again, we
really do appreciate folks that try to uork with the system. Typically we
can work. Typically in the long run things happen for the best and you maynot see it tonight but again, before I make my eomments I just wanted to
thank you. Sometimes ue don't have people that try to uork uith us likeyou are. I'm a little bit concerned about the precedent that we'd set inthis particular case. I don'C know how we'd back off of the precedent. I
don't understand the 30-60 rule. That seems real foggy to me. I think we
should try to improve the wetland. I think the botLom line is, if you canget your neighbors to uork rrith you to try to improve. This seems like a
piecemeal approach to something and maybe that's the way u,e steered you.
Sometimes He steer you because you have the wetland alteration. Because
you asked for something, staff's going to ste€r ),,ou to say weII you can
come in and do something and we kind of steer you in one direction and
maybe we should have been saying hey. Try to get aII the residents that
border that uretland together and maybe there'6 one general approach that
worked for aII of you. That may not uork because there are people that do
appreciate wetlands and the cattails and therefore it's a Iittle bit harder
to get a consensus of a group and it forces you to communicate with your
neighbors and maybe sink some money into it but in my mind I uould hav6' I
haven't seen the right solution today for this problem. I really do have a
feeling about a precedent that we'd set and I think it's just wise to, well
on my part, I urill vote against this. I think the City Council has some
other, they have directed staff to review this positively and I think that
ue are going to, it sounds pretty much to me H€'re going to be in consensus
here on not accepting it but I think the City Council has a differentperspective on this. At least they directed staff a different Hay so Ithink you're going to brant to hear rthat the City Council says in this
regard but in my mind I haven't been persuaded that we have the reasons ortha method to alter this particular netland at this time. If ue do and we
have done that quite a few times, uJe can always improve the guality of theh,ater. l.re can always improve the habitat and many times we can imProve thefiltration capabilities if ue try to improve it in a certain Hay. I don'tthink what I've seen today is that way. Any oth€r comm€nts?
Emmings: Just one. You know if the City feels that it owes these People
something because of some role of the City in nisleading them or uhatever,
which I don't really see, since the City owns half the land around this
pond maybe they could be a contributor to an improvement Project on thepond. Do their pendance that way.
Ahrens: I have one more comment. Ouestion for the staff. I assume that
once word gets out that Lhe applicant for alterations of the wotlandsaren't soins to so real far in front of the Planning Commission for other
people uho've already altered Lheir wetlands, what's 9oin9 to haPPen? Are
you going to continu6 to get request6?
Olsen: ThaL's what ure Here just discussing because r.re've LoId th€m that
they have to come through nith the process and again, the residents who are
here tonight have been very pleasant to uork uith. So we will have to send-
them another ]etter giving them a deadline that they wiII have to pursue.
tle already have notice and one of the people are here tonight. Mr. Kern,
and they know that they do have to come through with the b,etland alteration-permit process. I think one of the reasons it's taking Ionger tlith the
wetland to the south that has been altered throughout the whole uetland is
they are trying to, when we did meet with them, ue aaid that do come in
uith one overall plan. Everyone in agreement lrith what you wanted to have -
done ultimately and I think that they're still uorking on that. I don't
know if they're actively pursuing it. I'm assuming they are but we wiII
continue to, staff still sees iL as violation of the ordinance and that
they do have to go through the pgrmit process.
Olsen: Yes,
Emmings: I think you should send them our Hinutes from this.
Conrad: You know we've just got to tackle this wetland deal because I'mreally getting tired of talking about it and preaching every 2 r.reeks.
There's this mystic about the wetland alteration permit, It's like a
building permit. It's like you can. AII you have to do is fiII this out
and really the standards, you knou, I'm not sure how you talk.
Olsen: t,e try not to give LhaL lmpression.
Planning Commission Heet i ng
July 18, 1990 - Page 28
Emmings: Ooes that group have a spokesperson that you have contact with?
Olsen; There's a couple that I'lI send th€m to.
Planning
Jul.y 18.
Commission Meet i ng
1990 - Page 29
There are a lot of problems I see with this. First of all, maybetie the architecture in with the Dinner TheaLre. OnIy kidding butI'm not sure that this is what we want if this is going to be theto Chanhassen. This looks real crowded to me firsL of all. And
Conrad: Don't you? Okay. See I don't know but I don't see it on the formso iL's like ue don't really u,ant weLlands altered and there is a way ifyou can improve it. t^,le've just got to make sure that that is really
communicated up front because it's not like an automatic. I think you'vegot to make sure that that is communicated. Any other comments.
Eatzli: f move that the Planning Commission recommends denial of tretlandAlteralion Permit S9O-4 for Lots 4 and 5, Block 2, Curry Farms.
Conrad: Is there a second?
Conrad: This will go to the City Council on August 13th. I appreciate youaII for coming in. I Lhank you for your comments both pro and con. t^le
understand both sides of the coin. Please stay with it because Counci]wiII probably have Lheir own opinions on this particular issue eo thanksfor coming in.
PauL Krauss presented the staff report on this item.
Ahrens: I was going to try to find Something positive to say tonight
since everything else has been negative.
Conrad: You really are negative.
Ellson: I cannot tel] a lie.
Ahrens:
ue cou ldthis is,
e ntr a nce
EIlson: Second.
Batzli noved, EIlson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend denialof tletland Alteration Permit *9O-4 for Lots 4 and 5, Block 2, Curry Farms.AII voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
SKETCH PLAN REVIEI.I FOR A PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPI{ENT TO CREATE AN AUTO SERVICE
CENTER I.JITH A RESTAURANT ON PROPERTY ZONED BH, HIGHT.IAY BUSINESS DISTRICT
AND LOCATED ON THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF HI.'Y.5 ANO 1O1 ,(HANUS BUILDING), LoTUs REALTY SERvIcEs.
Conrad: Why don't we just open it up for comments. tle're not voting onthis tonight but I think we're providing the applicant and the City any ofour comments or our guidance as the applicant goes back and tries to
manipulate this to meet some of staff's concerns and maybe our concerns asdoes it gualify for a PUD in our minds and is this !his, what are our
requirements for the entrance to Chanhassen. Do we have an entrance to
Chanhassen? Oo ue care? Does Lhis meet uhaLever our standards might be?
Joan, start at your end.
Ahrensi I know. But I can't.
PlanningJuly 18,
Commission l,leeting
1990 - Page 30
Ahrens: I'm not sure I want to get into the specifics of the curb cuts and
the landscaping or anything like that right now because I have a hard timevisualizins that this is what I think we should be putting in that area.
Conrad: Do
already.
you have any idea? You knou we do have a building there
Ahrens: Risht.
conrad! And the building to the €ast, the area to the east is not tooIarge. Any direction?
Ahrens: tlell I think that maybe ue should cut dourn on the number of things-
we're going Eo put Lhere. It seems to me awfully crowded uith the four
buildings righL there. A restaurant uould be great you know. A decentrestauranL. I mean a restaurant. Not.
conrad: Not a fast food.
Ahrens: Yeah.
conrad: t,hat's the lot coverage in this particular sketch? There's not
much green.
Krauss: ].Je don't knou,. It's got to be very high. Now within the PUD
district thaL does not appl)z but it's got to be very high.
Ahrens: I wouldparcel uould cutother thi ngs .
think also by eliminatine the number of structures
down on Lhe parking problems and everything else.
on thisAII the
the businesses that are proposed here I'm not sure are, I keep seeing
Hardee's in here and I thought that the last time we discussed this we
decided that it wasn't necessarily going to be Hardee's, tle were going to
leave it open and Hardee's t4as not n€cessarily something se wanted right
there. t,e have a Hard€e's and a car wash and an auto repair and then a
proposed retail facility which is probably like a movie rental or that type
of deal.
Krauss: It's e small dual tenant retail buildins. At this Po.i. nt there's
only one Lenanl p€rsp€ctively identified but presumably any retail type of
use can go in there.
Kreuss: Yeah, r,rell this hai been reduced and if you can believe it, this
has been reduced in density since we'vc been uorklng uith the applicant. A-couple of, well the Hanus building being r.rhere it is makes planning aroundit very difficult and maybe the architecL can speak to that but you've got
this bis fixture there and you've got the site trailing down as it gets outto the street. There's not a whole lot of flexibility in terms of uhereyou push things. Relocation of the car wash is a given to the extent thatyou've got to take the car wash auay from it's existlng Iocation Lo makethis happen. The car wash was decreased in size. Now there's a lot ofpre-conceived notions going into this as ueII. In fact that iL's a fast
PIanni ngJuly 18,
Commission Heeting
1990 - Page 31
food so you design around a fast food. The car wash has to have so
bays so the archilect was given a fairly difficult lask in terms ofresol.ving these things. I too share a conc€rn about density but Ithey've done a fairly good job of dealing uith Lhe parameters that
were given to deal with. I think that for them to accommodate theof the issues that uere raised in the staff report, you're going to
some decrease in intensity. How much I don't know. That really isthe creativity of the architect.
ma ny
thi nk
they
concer ns
see
uP to
Conrad: Okay. Joan, anything else? Jim.
t,ildermuth: In the report, as I read the roport, I'm uondering r.rhat theCity is getting in exchange for the PUD status. I can understand why the
PUD classification is going to be required for this parcel. I guess that,sone question. Another concern that I have is that there,s going to be alot of in and out Lraffic here. The use is pretly intense. I guess Ienvisioned for some time an office buildins in here. l'1aybe an officebuildins with a restaurant on Lhe first floor or something like thatpossibly but something that probably wouldn't have as much in and outtraffic off of TH 1Ol as a car wash and a fast food restaurant. I don'tknow, it may not be possible to design around the Hanr.rs building to makereally effective use of this parcel .
l^li]dermuth: trhat does the City get for the PUD sLaLus in this?
Krauss: t^le haven't gotten it yeL. I think what the report says is ehathere's what we want for it in terms of high quality architecture. In termsof hish qualit.y landscaping. In terms of comprehensive signage package sonot everybody has a pylon sticking up. Those kinds of things are outlinedin here but as it's a sketch plan they really haven't gotten into that kindof detail.
Wildermuth: I guess if that'sgetting, they're going to have
Krauss: Amoco has a single
conceptua I I y about having aat some point in the future
all that theto b6 pretty City can really antic ipateexlraordinary to fLy.
Conrad: Br ian.
Batzli: The Amoco's putting in a car uash aren't they?
Krauss: Excuse me?
Batzli: The Amoco's putting in a car wash just north of there?
bay self service car uash. They've talkedfull service car urash east of the gas stationbut that hasn't been approved.
Krauss: It does make it very difficult and apparently uhile the area
around it's not particularly attractive, the buildinS was very solidlybuilt and does represent a significant investment. Again, if you look atthe Iist of givens that uere handed to the architect, you've got to workaround it.
Planning Commission l.leet i n9
July 18, 1990 - Page 32
Batzli: If we don't vacate Nest 79th, would that eventually go through to
the other end where proposed TH 1O1? tlould Lhere be access from both ends?
Krauss: No.
Krauss: Risht. Keep in mind that }lhiIe the plans are being comPleted now,
the t.tay it looks is Ehat the Taco Shoppe uill definitely be acquired for TH
1O1 construction. The Ready Hix site Probably r.riII be. Once the City owns
it, you know you lurn around and try to do somethine uith r.rhatever is
needed for right-of-way. !.rhat happens east of th€ Hanus ProPerty has not
been really determined aL this point in time but there's not a lot of room
Ieft there.
Krauss: That's on the Hanus property.
Batzli: Hor,l far away did we put the road, did ue make
bank have a turn-in right across the railroad tracks?
Crossroads or whatever.
the bank? oid
The ner.l bank.
the
The
Krauss: I don't recall h,hat we did with them. I know ue had a concern
wiLh ir.
Batzli: I guess I'd, Iooking at t
the middl.e of the road here, thisget into and out of and I agree wi
a site that's going !o have a lotgoing to be creating a lot of prob
don't have any problem with makingreaLly does it for me or the City
I see if we end up r.ri th a median i n
oing to be a very difficult site toim's comment that if it's going to beraffic in and out, I think we're
with the eurr6nt configuration. Is a PUD but I don't know if thisar best development of this
his
is g
thJ
oft
I emsrhiasfparticular site but I think it's right. It's 9oin9 to be a very difficultsite to develop and it's poorl)r accessible and f don't know.
EIIson: I don't have a whole IoL new. Hy firsL comment, iust like Jim'sis what do we get for this PUD. It'd be better even if a lot of times
l.lcDonald's have outdoor pla)z yards or somethine like thaL. I gu€ss that
would be nicer than just the drive-up and concrete or something that makesit look a little more like a rest area where you could eat outside. Idon't know. I don't see us getti.ng an)rthing out of it and I know that it'sthe first go around but I get the feeling that it's like you said, theyoriginally came with maybe 10 things. Now th6y're going down to 4. Then
w€ see 3 and ue still don't like it. cet almost pushed into feeling likethey're compromising less. I stilI don't Iike it. This reminds me of
what's right across from Eden Prairie C€nter and it's like, r,rhat was it afish shop for a while and then you go up tMt street and then it h,as a car
wash and then it was like a, not a service center as much as an auto parts
and then there r..ras e O station or somethins Iike that and that's exactly
whaL this reminds me of. It's not exactly uhat I uant for tshe entsrance.
Batzli: So this is really going to be a poorly accessible site as you go
deeper and deeper into it?
Wildermuthr Is Lhis proposed retail facility, is that on the Hanus
property or is that on the Ready Mix property?
Ahrens: ...h,hat this is going to look like in 10 to 15 years.
EIIson: Yeah. So while I can agree that it,s hard to develop, I surewould like to see something else on here and teke a better look at it atanother try.
Conrad: Remember what Paul is saying is we Eet some, maybe somearchitectural . tlhat do we ge! out of it? Paul has said Lhat h,e might g€t
some architectural improvements. tle misht get some continuity fromproperty to property, There are some things that for surs ure can get outof it.
Batzli: I don't see that happening because Hardee's restaurant looks Iikea Hardee's restaurant and you're not 9oin9 to make the Hanus building looklike a Hardee's restaurant and the Amoco station is totally desisned. Idon't see Lhat Lhis is being developed in a PUO manner Lo have a samenessto the architecture or anything like that. I mean Hardee,s is not going to
come in and redesign the look of their restaurant.
t^,ildermuth: There's going to have to be a lot of compromise.
BatzI i : Yeah.
Conrad: Steve.
t"lildermuth: HoH about. a Iight rail sLation?
Ahrens: Yeah. That's a great id6a.
Conrad: I keep thinkins about that. Restaurant, Iisht rail. He could
move the Chaska brick buildings here.
Emmings: Historical preservation area.
Conrad: Remember, other than being critical folks, we're Iooking for
recommendations .
Emmings: I'm confused about Hhat He're doing here procedurally a littlebir.
Conrad: Sketch plan is a time when th€y sort ofue kind of say, yeah. tle kind of like that ideaone, It's not a formal proposal right now. They
r.,aCer and Iookins for our feel ings .
Emmings: So this is not thc concept revieur?
Kreuss: Yes iL is.
Emmings: No, it can't be I don't think. That's why I think h,e've got alittle confusion here about what ue're doing. At leasL I do. If this is asketch plan review, which I'm not sure f'm finding any, I don,t knou, r.rherethe authority for this is in here but I know ure've done it before and I'm
bri
and
're
ng in their ideas and
ue don't like thatsort of testing the
Planning Commission Heet i ngJuly 18, 1990 - Pase 33
Planning Commission Meet i ng
July 18, 1990 - Page 34
comfortable doing that with the underslanding that this is sort of informal
and no action. The concept plan revieu under the PUD ordinance requires a -public hearing in front of the Planning Commission with notic€ to aII the
surrounding property owners.
Olsen: ft was sent out as a public hcaring.
Emmings: UelI I haven't heard a publlc hearing being oPened.
Conrad: No.
Batzli: tl€'16 in New Business.
conrad: Yeah, I'm certainl)r dealing uith it differentlv than that.
olsen: They were sent notices...
Ahrens: This isn't even under tha publlc hearing part though.
Emmings: No. I Lhink there's some, I don't knou, I'm not sure what we're
doi ng .
Ellson: You put it under naw business, not public hearing.
Conrad: Hhat are ue doing?
Ellson:
conrad !
Skip reviewing. lle're just giving oul comments.
That's what I thoughL ue wer6 doing.
Emmings: See it says on here general concept site plan and under general
concept plan under the PUD ordinance, it says dour n here under C(3) Lhat
the Planning Commission shall conduct a hearing.
Krauss: tlell ulhat we think, we're trying to pue together what happened and
the staff report ulas t.,ritten for concept plan review.
Emmings: This should not be called a sketch.
Krauss: There is no such thing as a sketch plan.
Emmings: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And we shouldn't be using those
words because that's confusi n9 .
Krauss: t^lhen the agenda uas put togeth€r, it was erroneously caIled sketchplan but xe did get the names and addresses. I'm 992 sure we published it.-
In fact I know we published it and ue sent out everything and the agenda
was unfortunately in error.
Emmings: okay, so it's been published and we've got notice to all land
owners wiLhin 5OO feet in addilion? Okay. So we've met aIl the conditions
we have to meet but we haven't opened the public hearing or closed one.I don't know if anybody cares.
PIanning Commission Meet i ng
JuLy 14, !99O - Pase 35
Er hart : t,lhy don 't we just do
Hants to talk can come up and
it. tlhy don't you open it up so anybody uhotaIk.
Conrad: l.lhat's the, in
is our act ion?
a concept plan PauI, what is the culmination? t,hat
Krauss: You vote to act negatively on the con€ept.
a PUD?Conrad: On Lhe concept
Krauss: l.lel I it's not ato formally act on that.r€zone it and you're not being asked
Conrad: [^le're not rezoning it tonisht. Are you asking us whether we thinkue're in favor of rezoning it?
Krauss: tlhether you're
PUD .
in favor of the concept which includes it being a
Emmings: I think it specifj.ca]]y says in heye, it says approvaL of a
concept statemenL shall not obligate the City to approve the final plan orany part thereof or to rezone the property so that'6 been covered under theordinance. The general concept plan sounds Iike uhat we used to call asketch plan review for a subdivision very much. It's a very general kindof thing and lhen it goes to the City Council and they approve it and thenyou've got the development stage and the final replatting and aL} of that.
Olsen: You could even do development and concept plan.
Emmings: Yeah, but I don't think we want to do that on this one.
Olsen: No -
conrad: tlell let's keep going with our comments and then we'Il open it upfor a public hear i ng .
Emmings: The other thing is, there are specific things that are supposedto be in the general concept plan and I don'L know that they're aII here.
Maybe they are. f'm wondering if the staff has reviewed that. Has staff
reviewed what's supposed to be in general concept plan and do we have aII
those things? Have we got the overall gross and net density on the site?
Does that have any meaning when we'r€ not talking residential? l,lost of the
PUD ordinances are oriented to residential uses.
Krauss: Frankly. I don't like our PUD ordinanc€.
olsen: f^Je didn't take it f rom Hinnetonka.
Emmings: Frankly, we don't Iike it either.
positively or
or on it being
PUD until you
Erhart: once you get these all changed to
see you walk out of here and then the nextIike this.
hrhat you like, xe don't want toguy comes in and says, I don't
PlanningJuIy 18,
Commission tleet i ng
1990 - Page 35
Emmings: I Iove this. There's a sentence in here in the staff report that
says, I'm going to send this into the New Yorker. It says, it is thestaff's goaL that this project be developed not onLy with cost utilizationof access and utilities but also with a common architectural theme and
signage that is vindictive of it's location. By God, r,le'll show them. It -says that the Hanus building is no! in compliance Hith current building
codes -
Krauss: That 's true -
Emmings: And I'm just curious about, didn't Ne just allow, didn't
take some action thaL alloxed some activity in that buildins? tlhy
do that if the buiLding didn't meet Cod6?
r.le just
would we-
Olsen: tlell the rest of the building. Their portion now does. Little byIittIe.
Emmings: I don't really have anything much to add but what's been said. I
am having frankly some trouble visualizing what this would Iook Iike fromthe hightray and that's of key importance to me. I don't think it probably
looks very good but I don't. knour that [ithout some kind of an elevation or
some kind of a dranring that uill show me b/hat it looks like from tH S.Frankly in Lhe absence of LhaE, f can't really assess this thing $rithout
knowing that. Llhy don't they have elevations here?
Krauss: tle've talked to them about that and I guess they can specifically
address that but I think it might have to do with how much work effort theyput into a project before they got some blessings to proceed.
Emmings: f can understand that but I guess to hrhat extent are they going
to have conLrol over r.lhat Hardee's looks like? Any at aII?
Krauss: I think we have every control over that. Now that's been a point
of discussion beLween slaff and the applicant. tte don't view Hardee,s as a
f ree entity. tlle view Hardee's as one element of a PUD and if Hardee's bookarchitecture doesn't fit, it's golng to have to be modified to fit,
Emmings: tle'll make them put golden arches on it. But I really think it's-
such a critical piece of property in Lerms of r.rhat people see when they
come up here that we shouldn't really do anything with this until ue've got
some drawings that show us urhat this is going to look like. I can't tell. -
Batzli: So
appropr iate don't even want it to say that this site might bea PUD tonight?
you
for
Olsen: llell they are. ThaL new business is doing a reLrofit to meet Code -r isht?
Krauss: Risht .
Emmings: Okay, they're in there and operating in a building that doesn't
meet code.
P Ia nni ngJuIy 18,
Commission M€et i ng
1990 - Page 37
Emmings: No, I think it is. I think the difficulties of developing thissite tend touard a PUO. I think that's reasonable. 8ut whether this plan.
You knor^t when you look down on uhat's drawn on this piece of paper, itlooks cramped and crowded and contrived to try and move cars. I'm sure it
was a headache and a difficult problem for the architect and I'm perfectlywilling to concede that he did the best he could under the circumstancesbut it really doesn't look very good.
Erhart: t^,ell I appreciate the effort that someone's gone to here to t,ry todevelop this site and improve it over t,hat it is. I think the question is,that I'm going to pos€ here and just try to figure out r{hat do ue gain bywaiting or what do ure lose by doing this nou? I've got a couple questions
!o maybe try and ansurer Lhat in my mind. Before that is, Gary Brown'scurrent car wash, what's the plans for that irregardless of this? Is that
9oin9 to sLay?
Krauss: If this doesn't happen, that would stay yes.
Erhart: Okay,property that
i ndependent Iy .
SO
now
that piec€ of property is essentially, on that piec€ ofis proposed for Hardee's which could possibly develop
Krauss: It could but it would be very difficult because it would havevirtually no visibility from the street.
Erhart: You mean from TH <a
uashKrauss: Gary Brown's car is Lhis little lot right here.
Krauss: Sure.
Erhart! That could be a restaurant or a Hardee's just by itself. The
difference is Lhat they would fall under the 65t coverage. Right now hereit looks like when you pull this all together, it looks like you're at
about 8OZ-9OZ coverage. So it's a lot of coverage and in exchange ulhat Ithink we're getting be)zond, fundamentally beyond what other things you canget is we're hoping someone is 9oin9 to come in and improve the Hanus
building to the degree that you can improve it given you're going to deal
r"riCh it . I'ly question is, if we say ue don't like this at this time , then
whet uill happen is I guess we wait until it becones more valuabLe or theright guy comes along and buys the whole town and does it or the option is,
why doesn't, I mean we bought Pauly's and everything else downtoun in
redevelopment. tlhy urouldn't r.re do this with Ready-t{ix and do the downlown
redevelopment h6re? Is there some reasoD h,e can't do that?
Erad Johnson: You have to have a LenanL-
Er hart: But I meanIots together could
Er hart: Do we
importanL than
assume Gary sold that
develop i ndependent Iy
with the next lot. Those twowithout the Hanus bui ldi ns?
have a tenant for Pauly's? l.rhat makes this corner lessthat one?
P Ia nni ngJuly 18,
Commission Meet i n9
1990 - Page 38
Erhart: Yeah, but that can change assuming. So then the other question
is, it would seem !o me, right now ue're in th€ process of talking about
buying the Ready-l'lix and the Taco Shoppe. l.]e at one time talked about
making this street here one of the alternatives for the redesign TH 1o1 atthat time it went through. Noh, why do you say now that it can't go
thr ough?
Krauss: Because of the way the intersection of TH
rai luray tracks and 78Eh Street r.,or k out , it's just
introduce another turning movement.
1O1 and TH 5 and the
too crowded to safely
Erharl:
because
Because the ex ist i ngof the existing lots?
houses. you couldn't move it further west
Krauss: tlell you get grade problems. t^le looked in fact at
of Ieaving Ready-Hix. Giving them a new access further wes!
but you get into some real difficult grade problems with theyou need another railuay crossing which they won't give us.
the possibility-
on 78th Streetrailroad plus
Erhart: WeIl we would have had to require that uhen we talked about theredesign. If ue were going to do this as an alternative for 1o1
realignment we would have had an additional railroad crossing th6r6.
Krauss: No, and ne've said that b,e think that uhat they've shown isinadeguate. [.le've asked them to move some buildings back and Lhey have
done that to give more room on the TH 5 exposure from landscaping but inother areas there's extremely limited opportunities for doing anything.
These conceptuaL tree stamps don't mean a whole heck of a Lot to me. Idon't think it's been given a lot of thought and you really have to get ahandle, as Steve points out, rith the view from TH 5. There's a pretty
good elevation change in there and there ulill be some more when the
highway's rebuilt so you really have to see the finished concept.
Erhart: WeII let me add one thing and then I'Il giv€ you my opinion. I
would say one of the things you might look at here is the risht in off TH 5
and they have one that works very effectively at the McDonald's and GreenStreets or u,hatever it is over in Eden Prairie in an area that's difficult
Brad Johnson: I'Il ansrer all these things in a few minutes. rt's not
designated as a redevelopment site.
Krauss: t^le do have a revised railway crossing now with TH 1o1 as it's
proposed today .
Erhart: I guess I don't remember exactly how that went but I remember thatthis was a thru screet on those proposals. Again, I appreciate the effort -but I really wonder if the timing isn't such that we lould be better offwaiting a little bit on this. It's really, it's packed in tshere and againI agree with Steve. The obvious next step would be to take a look at whatit would look like. The other thing ls that the cov€rage is it's going Lo -get you a situation where you don't have room, really much room left for
Iandscaping or do you feel that the Iandscaping that they've shown is whatyou bra nt
PlanningJuIy 1a,
Commission Meet i ng
1990 - Page 39
to get into for people coming west but it does allow some people going westnot to have to 9o to the red light and then to 9o back in by the truckparking erea. l,laybe the highway department urould Iaugh at you but it's.
Krauss: They urould havethey closed the right-in
El Ison: The Driskill's
You used to be
ver y
i nto
serious problems r.rith that. As you know,the shopping center in Eden Prairie on TH 5
ar€a?
able to get directly into that. They shut thatKrauss:
down.
Conrad: I don't understand. l.lhy uould they have a problem uith that here?
Krauss: Anytime you introduce a turning movement on a main Iine streetyou've got lraffic slowing dosrn while the rest of the traffic is speedingalong at 50-55 mph. It's just a hazardous situaLion.
Emmings: Doesn't it go uphill kind of fast?
Erhart: Anyway, a right-in uould help the situation here because it r.rould
reduce the number of turns coming in by the railroad tracks from the south,Overall I guess yeah, I'm in favor of looking at this as a PUO. f'm notexcited about the plan. I think it's too dense. Too much coverage.You're addition another proposed retail facility there. If you realIy uantto deal with the exisLing buildings, maybe that has to be eliminated.
I.laybe part of the existing building next to the proposed car ulash has to beeliminated. It's a small little box there. I'm welcome to look aL a pUD
at someLhing to approve that site. I think it's got to be a little bitdifferent than this if it's 9oin9 to get aI). th€ way through. On the otherhand. maybe a wait isn't bad either. So Ladd.
Conrad: ooes it serve
now?
our goal to open this up as a public hearing right
Krauss: tlell, that was the intent. I believe it does. You can still takeaction I uould assume to either continu€ or rocommend denial or approval ,whatever you r.,,ant . If there was some additional detai I i ng that theapplicant was uilling Lo provide you, that might be persuasive, you couldask for that. Get a continuance.
conrad3 I think in summary before, I chink ue uiII open up a public
hearing and just see. l.le've done this backwards unfortunately and that's
my fault because I uas looking at tho r.rord sketch and I've got old memoriesof what sketch means. I don't update myself. My comments are realconsistent uith the rest of the PIanning Commissioners. It reaIIy seemspacked. I think it's real appropriate to do this as a PUD. I think that'sthe uJay to get the most value out of this propert,y because it's not an easy
one to develop yet I'm not, I think in the staff report there are a lot of
issues the least of which is the traffic aeneration. tt just seems like alot of traffic poured into an area that really, Iike Jim said, probably
should be office. Yet I know office is probably not the best, not thehottest property to rent these days out here so you know thaL's obviously
PIanni n9
July 1a,
Commission [.,leeting
1990 - Page 40
why it's not coming in with office but it seems ]ike we're putting in a lotof stuff in a little bit of land, I Lhink let's open Lhis up as a publichearing. tJe'll go through that motion and then ue'Il decide what Ne Hantto do r{ith it after Lhat. I'll open up the public hearing and ask if there
are comments. Brad, if you brant to play the role, nou, that you heard. l.le -turn the tables on you. See notr you knoul where ue are and usually ue knou
uhere you are and then ue can take shots at you. Now the tables areturned. You know exactly what we Lhink and He're looz in agreement.
Brad Johnson: Okay, my name is Brad Johnson. I'm with Lotus Realty and
we're primarily the owner of most of the property there. t have Hith me
l,lr. Ron Ohe who represents Hardee's and also PauI Humiston, the architect
in charge of thls and I'd Iike to just address maybe first of all why ue're
doing this because it's taken us 3 years to get the control. You have
probably 5 more months where this parLicular parce! will be under control
of one individual or group of people and that's the Lotus Realty grouP.
FoIlowing that, this properEy will Lhen, if something is not done urith it,
then it wiII be just built out. It is zoned for auto repair, auto body. It_
is zoned for a car wash. It's zoned for fast foods. It's zoned for aII
those thinss and that's l,hat the permitted uses are there. There is
sufficient room there currently. There's a 36,OOO square foot area called
the Kerber's property we call it uhere we could 9o ahead and build
anything. l.,e've got a number of buyers r.rho'd like to purchase it andprimarily for auto body. AII permitted uses. Instant Lube. Sma}l
facilities generating very Iittle, in my business, tax increment to make
any major changes to the site. The Hanus building is a permitted use. t,e
are slourly changing it. It probably needs a facelifLing of about
tEloo,ooo.oo to $15o,OoO.OO which has no economic value to the land owner.
The parcel in the rear, there's 2 L/2 acres back there that we have. tle
have a number of people who wish to purchase that at the present time
r,rheLher we do the PUo or not. The PUO is not a requirement for the
development of this particular site. The PUD is a reguivement in order to -do the site in the manner that we have and the reason we're doing it in the
manner that u,e have and the reasons that it's taken us such a long time toget it here, which is about 2 years, is that we have to get Gary Brou,n to
agree to move his car wash. In order for him to move his car wash from thecorner, he has !o replace it. Okay? The only place on the site he is
willing to put the car uash as you see it and then upgrade it is where itis. otherwise it will just stay there and that will be your entrance into -
Chanhassen . l.le have i n addition to Hard€e's, Dairy Oueen who r.rants to go
there. Another fasL food type places. Totally permittcd and on 35,OOO
square feet we can put in just about anything that would be that fast food -cat€gory. Okay, Lhese are all permitted us6s but there'd be no plan. tlejust sell each piece of property and they'd come and all they'd have to dois meet your standard guideline. There's a private str€et in front. tle
own the property all the uay along the railroad tracks. The road itself is-
on an easement so t,re can creat€ parking all th€ r,ray along the railroad to
meet parking needs just because it's our property, not tha City's. TheCity has an easement for the road. I've been through th6 HRA now on thisplan over the last 2 years. I can't do anything about the Hanus building, .
It's a one million dolIar facility. Originally construction costs. It's a
v6ry expensive building. You lrouldn't tear it down tomorrow. It's got a -value today of around $7OO,OOO.OO because of the use it's currently used
for. People would like to use it just Iike it is. We've got a number ofpeople who just like to continue forever using it like it is. Just like
Apple valley is continuing using it where it is. So when Hardee's came tous and said they'd be willing to come in and do what they're doing here if
we could relocate the car wash. They xould be willing to ask for no TIFassistance. They'd be willing to pay sufficient amount of money which
means aII their tax, you know it's in the tax increment district. AIl that
money would go to trying to do !h€ rest you see. Helping on the Hanus.They're not asking for any assistance or paying a reasonable rate for it.
Fhey gave us enough money potentially to relocate l.lr. Broern. tle feel thatthe architecture that we'd probably propose would be at least equal to the
Amoco station and Lhat was a permitted use. AII you have to do is come in
and pull a permit because they're in. I mean these are the types of thingsyou're dealing with. So first thing we're proposed of PUD is to give you
some control over the architecture, which from a developer's point of viewtakes alI control away from us. Because right now I don't Lhink you can,
am I right Paul your standard if I came in for a permit, you could applyyour standard architecLural standards that the City has but you could notsay this has to be the entry without buying th6 property from thedeveloper. It has to be designed any particular way. The PUo gives you
the control to assist us in the development of the parcel. Nor.l as you
upgrade that, because Hardee's is there. That increment tha! they'regenerating, the HRA then would have to finance the architectural
improvemenL above and beyond economic value of the property which is to my
mind to plow some money into landscaping. To plor.r some money into the
redevelopment or changing of the looks of the Hanus building which we think
we can do. Now we'll address that in a few minutes. The reason we haven't
done that is because ue have to listen first. You know ure can come in uilhall kinds of elevations which everybody leaves on which you spend a lot of
money on elevations and many times the)z'II change it because it doesn'L
meet Nhat people want. The car h,ash is there because people, the only areain the whole city of Chanhassen zoned for car r.rashos and I have probably
one car wash guy a day calling m€ to put a car wash in there because theyaII know it's the only place in tovrn zoned for that type of thing. It'syour highest traffic area in the community and that's r.rhere reLail wants tobe. Now, this is planned. It's consistent with Lhe plan for that area asprescribed by all your consultants. It's consistent with the TH 1o1
corridor plan right that we helped and Here involved in the TH 1o1 corridorplanning process. The plan is to start with what we have and scale downthe development as ue got deeper into it. The retail sites are very Iow
traffic generators. That's exactly what they xanted and then farther down
the Iine in the Apple VaIIey place, the plan uas to pr.rt offices in.
otherwise it r.rould just be unused and th€ acquisition of Apple Valley bythe CiLy wiII be in the $8OO,OOO.OO to 1.2 million cat€gory when it's aII
done with and you've got to come back then and pay for it Nith something to
be built on there. otherwis€ it uill be the Apple Valley, I mean the city
doesn't have the money to go around buying up Apple Valley's and buyingup...for somebody. You don't have the money to Eo around buying up things.
It's up to the developer to generate enough of a tax r€venue with what he's
doing. Now, you'Il notice that the bank over here is done correct? The
neur bank building that was just built over here on 79th? You'II notice
that the shopping center n€xt door is completed. Obviously it's not. tlhy
is it not? Because it's not viable. There were no tenants. And what ue
Planning Commission Heet i ng
July 18, 7990 - Pase 41
PIanning
JuIy 18,
Commission l.leeti n9
1990 - Page 42
have at the present time, through Hardee's. Through Mr. Brourn'sparticipation. You've got a lot of retail people ih"t w" could probably
say we have tenants for every building that we have here. Now I'm morethan happy, I'd love to take about 50 feet of the end of the Hanus buildingout of there. Okay? I would love to do that and I'd love to have the HRA -say that's fine. They'II do it. Or take out that little piece Lhat
somebody said we should just get rid of. The 360 square foot parcel where
Brown now has put $2OO,OOO.OO of investment in for an auto repair facility -which this town needs and it's the only place in town to do j.t because it'sthe only one zoned for that. Alrisht? So r.,hat you have here is that past
history, years and ),ears ago, aII of 10 years ago, is they asked Hr. Hanus
to move his Hanus repair facility out of downtown when Lhey were going to
redo the downtoun. He's the only tenant that on his own moved and built
!,,hat at that time was probably one of the best structures in the whole city
i,n 1977 - That's why iL's Lhere. Now whether that use today is not, Idon't think is a very good use personally and so we're trying to straightenit out. So that's what we're up to. The land is under control . The owneris r^rilling to submit to a PUD if in fact h,e can do something like this,
because if I can't do someLhing Iike this, I can't generate enough revenue
today to guarantee you delivery of something. The alternative simply thenis to go back to just doing pieces. Forget Mr. Brobrn moving the car wash.
Do something on lhe 36,OOO. Move the Hardee's someplace else in town where-it's a permitted use because it will be in town. There's permitted uses.
Places where we can do those types of things. You Iose that tenant and we
develop some small retail out in the back. t^,ait for TH 5 to come throughin a couple years. Clean that up. You know, thaL's originally what we
were planning on doing but we ueren't generating enough tax increment to
make any major investment in the Hanus facility itself. That's wherethe Hardee's thing comes in and f personally would prefer probably not to
do this plan because f foresee I'm going to have, ueII I've been at it nou
Paul with you f or 6 months. Okay? And we said r.,e r.lere not going topresent anything to Lhe Planning Commission that we didn't get a fairly 'positive report from the sLaff. That uras my deal with Paul . That's mydeal with the HRA. I consider his report fairly positive given the natureof a PUD in this community. So that's kind of where we are. As far asphasing it, we can probably phase it. As far as accessibility is
concerned, we'lI address lhat as far as the traffic Aeneration is here andwe're working with your traffic engineer to determine whether we reaIIy are_generating any traffic. I think it's perceived that we are. Are wereally? And these are all the issues that we knou ue have t'o deal with but
can that corner handle it? l.le don't know. As far as the elevations, Ithink we can make this look very attractive simply because by landscaping
and putting up a couple of barriers as the architect wiII say, I think we
can do that. I think it could look sood. It would look a heck of a lotbetter than this would Iook for the next 10 years of the Hanus facility. -Just like it is and continued use as it is. So that's kind of what we'retrying to do. And what you're getting for your PUD is you get your inpu!as to what this is and I think that's important. I think without Lhe PUD,
we would be forced jusL to sell the land and let it slide on as a normalkind of development and there are people that are Hilling to do that andthat's not any kind of threat. I mean Lhis is what we have to do. tle haveto seII. tle cannot continue to hold as it is. You can say ueII let's wait -for the HRA to come along. Right now the HRA is simply saying in the
Planni n9JuIy 18,
Commission Meet i n9
1990 - Pase 43
downtourn area, they're not going to spend anymore than 3 years ofincremenL. For them to come in and do any major kind of a thing here is 10to 12 years of increment. This is not considered a major redevelopmentarea in comparison to the downtown- So the policy at Lhe HRA Ievel is toset, if we go beyond 3 years of increment we're in trouble so. I,d like tohave the architect kind of address those issues that he feels, you shouldhear from him on this project and then Ron ohe courd address your concernsabout a restaurant. Remember this is a permitted use planned years andyears ago for this siLe through the zoning process. And then we'd Iike !oansu,er any questions but what I heard initially is you see no urgency herebut I don't Lhink you knot"l the history of the project and what eJ.se could
happen here and how long, when we picked this up this place had not paid
any rent to anybody for 4 years. So it was in that bad of shape. It hadnot paid it's taxes for 4 years, It's paid taxes and it's paid rent sincewe took it over so it's been slowly, he even paid his water biII today, soit's slowly becoming a good citizen and that's r,lhat we,ve been trying toaccomplish there but it's not been easy. So paul , do you want to addressany quest ions?
PauI Humiston: My name is PauI Humiston and I,m with Hirtinen, CIark &Larson Architects in Hinneapolis and we,ve been retained by Lotus ReaIty todo the planning on this. The project that you see, we've been in theprocess of talking with PauI and staff for about 4 or 5 months since wer.,ere retained by Lotus working on it. Our proposal is the general. conceptPlan for this site. No.., some of you have expressed concerns about what youhaven't seen. llhat kind of detail is racking here and to ansu,er that veryquickly and succinctly, it's because it's not required at this stage.
t^,le've taken your chanhassen city code to the letter here and presented andurorked out a concept plan for this. Hor.r it would work. How it would betrafficed. The density. t^that kinds of uses are on the site. I,ve comehere this evening prepared to address a couple of the issues that arebrought up by the staff report and hopins that everybody uras pretty wellfamiliar with that. Most of you have not addressed many of those issu€s atthis poinL but I think I will anyhow. First of aII the image of the sitehas been outlined in, there's a written narrative that was accompanying thereport. I think at this point it's best to say that the whole thins Houldbe treaLed as uniformily as possible. I think that's repsented in theplanning as weII as the ideas that would be applied ulith the architectureof the site. A lot of you have talked about hot^r it seems to be jumbled.
If you look really closely at it, everything on the site is arranged asclosely to uniformally as possible. It's an odd shaped site and it's anodd shaped access road that we've chosen not to go in and piece meal a lotof buildings all around there in a patchwork pattern but to put them in auniform fashion so that it's perceived from TH 5 as a project. As auniform area. A couple of the concerns that have been raised by staff arethat none of th€ buildings are parallel to TH 5 and that there is anirregular pattern there. l.Je've tried to provide what Iandscaping spacesleft in those areas surrounding the site and especially along TH 5 and dealwith some and provide some signage and some retaining waII areas. NoLretaining ualls but wall areas that would also provide some additionaluniformity to that visually from TH 5. The jury's still out on the Lrafficreport at this point. I think there are valid concerns about access intoand out of the site and I think we really can't address many of those
P Ianni ng
JuIy 18,
Commission Meeting
1990 - Page 44
concerns at this point unti). we have that report in hand. There was
concern about the density and the amount of parking provided for some ofthe different pieces on the site in the staff report. There's first ofaII, I'II just work across the site. l.le've got Hardee's on the end. tle've-provided 61 parking spaces for Hardee's. The City Code requires l car per
60 gross square feet for a fast food use. That's a very high requirement
compared to a lot of Lhe cities in the area and places that we've had
experience working as professionals. The Hardee's proposal has a fixed
number of seats. It has an area for 11O seating areas. l.le've provided 61
spaces which is ulhat is l car for 1.8 fixed seats. Some of Lhe othercities in the area require l for 2.5 seats or even I for 2.3- I think
we've exceeded a Iot of other similar requirements quite HelI and I thinkthat the parking there will serve Hardee's quite well and Mr. Ron Ohe will
address that from an operational standpoint after I:m done speaking. There
is one, I believe that staff has misinterpretted some of our intention with-the parking as with regards to the Hanus building. On page 7 of the reportit refers to 40 parking spaces being provided for the Hanus building. Inactuality we've provided 50 parking spaces. [^le've provided 4 parking
spaces for the car wash. 14 for Gary Brown's portion of the buildins.
That portion of the building which he is occupying a service facility underthe current Code, l for 2OO. l car for 2OO square feet. This arearequires 8 cars. Staff has suggested that we provide some data or report
based on other auto mall uses around the cities to provide some kind ofdata for parking requirements for the building. Being that it's, the automaII is kind of a newer phenomena. I think that's not a bad idea. Just to-initially address that I would say that the remaining portion of the Hanusbuilding would be developed as a combination of service and some retail.
Generally a good example urould be Goodyear. A Goodyear service facilitythat might have 6 or 8 bays for working on cars and then 1,OOO square feetfor a retail showroom area. IdeaIIy that whole piece of a building would
be developed with about a 7Ol3O split between service and retail. Applying-the City's parking codes to that, we come up with a requirement of 42 cars.tle're required for 42 here and we're required for 8 there and it rorks outevenly at 50 required and 50 proposed parking spaces. The rest of Lheretail area we provided additional parking over what is required although
as staff has pointed out it's aII... Staff is proposing that the access
road be a public road. I think due to the nature of the site and Hhatstaff has righLlr recognized as a difficult one to develop, we really need -the flexibility that a private road is important in this. They made some
recommendations about where the setbacks ought to be and how some things
would be set up. The Code applying to the site as current would requirethe most setback for parking...to the railroad property. And earlierdiscussions it was suggested that hre provide a 5 foot setback out there.[.le've done that and we're shouing hor.l we would landscape that conceptually.It's a full 5 foot boulevard. We have... boul.evard trees on either sideand lhen He provide a fuII 10 foot landscape strip to the south for a good
landscape buffer between the road and the businesses. It's an area wherethere would be ample room for berming. For shrubbery. For screening cars -and headlishts from the rest of the road and that's what ue perceived to me
landscape buffer means. Staff has recommended 10 foot to the norLh and I'm
concerned that if we do that , have to provide that landscape buffer, that
we really... I don't see that a landscape buffer between the railroad and -the road is as useful as it.,. So as part of the recommendations staff has
PIann i nsJuIy 1a,
Commission Meeti ng
1990 - Pase 45
proposed that a public roadway with a 45 foot right-of-way and I wouldexpress at this poinL that we wiII need flexibility of a privale road andthat the parking i.ssues are not as, that they,re much more adequaLe thanproposed. Otherwise I think we concur mostly h,ith the sLaff report and Iwould Like to thank them for the work that they've put in on it andcompiling the report that you got from them.
Ron Oh: I'm Ron Oh- I'm representing Hardee's. Certainly it's sometimesdisconcerning when people don't appreciate Lhe business that we have butwe've come to recognize that at Limes that it maybe doesn't fit into whatevervbodv would like Lo do. tle're interested in chanhassen. l.le have beeninterested in chanhassen for guite some time and ule have rooked at varioussites in the communitv to see what could be done. l.le identified what Bradprobably 9 months ago, the Iocation that He're speaking about. Our initialrequest was simply to buy the carwash and just go thaL route. However,Brad felt that because of what was going on with the Hanus building and soforth iL wourd make more sense to be able to develop that in conjunctionwith the Hardee's development. The reason we identified this site as agood potentiar is the fact that you have a tremendous employment base hereand we have found in other communities in other suburbs of the metropolitanarea that uhere there is a tremendous employment base, that we wilr be verysuccessfur. so quite obviously if we can be successful we're interested inthe communitv. There are a coupre other points that have been talked aboutand certainly we have to r.lait for the traffic report so that can bedefined. I think perhaps though that there is maybe a conception that $ewould be generating a tremendous amount of lraffic. r could go into a realdetail on how we make these determinations but if in fact we uere to do!2OZ of what the average normaL volume is in the metropolitan area, wetrould generate no more than 45o cars per day. That has two fold. one isthe fact that h,6, the reason I make that point, or tt,o things. The parking
has been, slaff has questioned whether or not that's adequaLe, particularrifor the Hardee's site. 45? to 50* of the business that is done is donethrough the drive-thru so Lherefore the other stalls would be used, theother part of the parking lot would be used for permanent parking. Theother poinL from Hardee's perspective, understand that Hardee's corporatehas also Iooked at the site. This isn't just a franchisee that's decidedto go on his own. Hardee's corporate has done that and that is quiLe anapproval process by the way. They just don't like to see Hardee's go upanywhere withouL having first found out r.,hether or not from theirperception it urill be successful. They operate that if we are able to showa car for eveyy 2 seaLs that we're going to have 11O as I've indicated,that becomes more than adequate because of the amount of traffic that isgenerated through the drive-thru. That would mean then 55 cars so itaPpears to be more than adequate with what the dimension is here. l.le're,as I said, interesled in coming into Chanhassen. l.te've identified this asa site we'd like to go to. I would ask your support in allowing us to dothat. Thank you.
Conrad: Thanks for your comments-
Ellson: Ron, can I ask you a question? Does Hardee,s ever have outdoorseating or the playground type of things? I think something Iike that Iguess is what I would see maybe I could get out of a pUO. Not that I wouldbe kicking out a Hardee's but that I'd get more a gentle look in things
P Ianni n9JuIy 14,
Comm iss ion l.leet i n9
1990 - Page 46
versus r.rith all the concrete, I don't know if you've ever done that sortof thing and if that's a possibility.
Ron Ohe: Yes r.re have, There is that and there's also theplayground facility which Hardee's is probably lhe pioneer
I work h,ith a franchisee that we've done in t"Jisconsin that
ao that makes more of a community. . .
i ndoorof that
sta r ted
co ncept .it al.1
EIIson: WeII especially if you see it from the highway.
Ron Ohe: But part of the problem we have here and as far bs an outdoorfacility is just again that the site is not a normal site and that it'sthe normal rectangle and it's 160 feet wide by 25O feet deep and allows
those things to happen very nicely. This doesn't do that and so hre're
trying to accommodate and do Lhe best job we can and making the buildinspleasing for what there is there. Did somebody else have a question?
sotaII
AS
Batzli: I don't think that's the issue so much as we're looking at a PUD -fhe whole thing is supposed to be unified. Planned together. It's
supposed to blend in. Look like i.t all belonss and the question isn't thatthe building looks nice or bad, the question is are you willing to submiLyourself to a PUD process where we might went you to look like the buildingthe proposed car wash and not like a Hardee's.
Conrad: No. Not r ightthere a motion Lo close
noh,. Any other public comments? Anything? Isthe public hear i ng?
Batzli: Yeah. Hord willing are you to change the architectural style of a -
Hardee's to match the existing buildings and that type of thins?
Ron Ohe: f'm noL an architect and certainly ue wilI allow the architecL to-
have some license to see if there can be some uniformity. tle don't think,
again that's our opinion, that ue have an obtrusive Iooking building. Thestyle, the architecLure of the building has changed dramatically over thelast 10 years and if any of you have had an opportunity to be in the more
recent Hardee's that have been buiIt, namely Brooklyn Center, you would seethe new prototype if you wiII of what Hardee's is. It isn't he orange
mansured roof anymore and so forth. That stuff's been toned down. There's-a lot more glass. There's the atriums and so forth that has becomeprevalent in the later 80's and we've adapted in that way and I think, Idon't think it's, again I may be redundant but I don't think it's a bad
Iooking building. From a fast food standpoint, it's a good lookingbuilding.
Ron ohe: There are certainly Hardee's. Redwing for example, if anybody's
been to Redwing. It's in an old railroad depot and Duluth they just redidan old warehouse district down where Granny's starts their races and a good
looking facility. We're not saying that ure're not opposed to looking atthat possibility. I don't know what's going to happen to the Hanusbuilding. I don't knor.t ulhat's going to happen to the car wash. Do u,e HantLo Iook like a car wash or the Hanus building or do we want to look Like a -Hardee's? Any other questions?
PIa nni ng
JuIy 1a,
Commission Heeting
1990 - Page 47
Yes. If you voLe yea or
You could also conti nue
nay on it, it wiII eo up to the Cityit if there's something you're looking
tl i I dermut.h: I'II move.
BatzLi: Second -
l.lildermuth moved, Batzli secondod to close the public hearing. AII votedin favor and thc motion carri6d. The public hcaring ras closed.
Conrad: l.lell we've made our comments to start out t^,ith but I think let'squickly 9o back through here. I think does the process call is, you arelooking for a yea or nay motion on this parLicular plan and regardless, itr.rill so to City Council at Lhis point in time. It doesn,t come back to usfirst. It goes to City Council right after our approval or disapproval?
Krauss:
Counci I .
for .
Conrad: We could continue iL if we were looking for more information.
Emmings: If ure don't do a report in 60 days, then the City Council canproceed r,rithout us and I guess maybe part of what the general. concept planis, it says it's an opportunity to the applicant to submit a plan to theCity showing the basic intent and general nature of the entire developmentwithout incurring substantial cost.
Conrad: ft reminds me of a sketch plan.
Emmings; It is. That's what itmind. tle're looking at this inrealIy at this plan that much.
And I Lhink ure've got to keep that ingeneral way. Not specifical ly
ls.
a very
Erhart: tJeII, as f stated before, I think it's an appropriate place toIook at a PUD - In going back I think, going back to downLownredevelopment. I think one of the things that would have been very helpful
when that [hole thing was brought to Planning Commission. I was just newat that time and pr€tty confused and I think Brad was up at that one too
and the Lhins kind of flowed through here and everybody was Iooking at eachother. Brad's a pretty convincing guy and we tend to deal more withresidential subdivisions than downtown issues. I think in retrospect itwould have really helped at that time I think, if we could have caught somethings that we overlooked. I! would have had either a joint meeting with
HRA or some representative from HRA to come in and kind of give us theirview of that and I think that uould be appropriate for this. I gu€ss Iwould like to, being that we don't have a lot of experience in viewingdolntown development as opposed to residential subdivisions, I'd Iike to
have that before. tJe could perhaps do it in parallel with proceeding or
u,hatever but I'd Iike to geL tha! input at some time early on...for such along period of time.
Conrad: Okay, let's go back through. Tim, any further comments over and
beyo nd?
Batzli: So you'd like Cl.ark or someone to come in here and tell us what
Planning Commission Heet i n9
JuIy 18. 1990 - Pas,e 48
their thinking is on this parcel and how it fits in?
Erhart; Yeah. Or an official representative of the HRA or perhaps some
kind of a joint meeting or something. That's complicaLed.
conrad: Their job is not to say this is the right design. Their job is toLry to encourage development and make it financially feasible so they're
not the planners, designers as such as they are the economic motivaters.
Erhart: It could happen.
conrad: It wi I I .
Emmings: It won't be easy.
Conrad: Oh sure. I think so.
Erhart: You've soL the coverage problem.
Emmings: I don't think it's going to be this dense.
Conrad: That's true. Steve, any?
has to say and uhat we haveI'm perfectly content to
they have to say- If they -we can get doHn to
EIlson: Nothing new.
Batzli: I Iiked Tim's idea to have a joint meetins with the HRA. Their
thoughts so I'd like to eventually move that sle table this until He can
have the joint meeting within 50 days and marshall our enthusiasm if infact this is best for the City.
Conrad: Jim.
Erhart: Yeah, and I think Brad's phasing, he's trying to sell us on to get
enthusiastic about this because it's good for the city in the next 10 years-
and I think, I guess I'd like to get the second opinion. Does the HRAbelieve this is good for the city for the next 10 years? I gue6s if HRA
comes in here and says yeah, this makes sense to them, who've got a lot
more experience in this, than I think we ought to try to rev our enthusiasm
up and IeL's aLtack it. If HRA comes in here and says, kind of cold thumbit, then I guess I'd have a hard time getting excited.
Conrad: Then you'd feel comfortable then letting i! develop piece by piece
which as Brad said it sure can do.
Emmings: No. f'm perfectly, maybe what the HRAto say come together at the City Council and so
see this go up to the City Council and see what
tdant to approve this as a general plan and thenspecifics, that's okay with me.
Conrad: Annette?
conrad: Brian.
P Iann i ng
July 1a,
Commission Meet i n9
1990 - Page 49
tli Idermuth:density and
what can be
conrad: Joan.
I'd like to table it and I'd like to see some calculations onit r^rou Id be interesting to see the project traffic study and
done with the intersection there on TH 1O1 .
conrad: Yeah, I have the same problem Brad. Brad, I have a real toughtime. For the benefits of being a PUO, it's hard for us to visualize the
benef i.ts right nou. The benefits are wrapped up in landscaping and design.They're not wrapped up into a perfect PUD as such you know. You'redealing, you've got constraints aII over the place so you've got the Hanusbuilding there and i! Iooks Iike to me, and this is obviously a layopinion, it looks like there are 4 properties here that could havedeveloped jusL that way independently but r.lhat you're selling are somethings that we haven't seen tonight and therefore it's hard to get realexcited and jump on the PUD bandwagon ulhich is a little bit of what you,re
selling. You're obviously selling some other things too but I just have,I don't mind the Hardee's going in there as long as lhe traffic takes careof it. I don't mind Gary Brown moving his car wash anyplace that is Iegal .That's fine with me. I don't mind a retail facility back there. That,sokay. Those are al,I permitted uses, They all work. But h,hat I don't seeare some, and quote unquote, I'm not sure uhat I'm looking for as thegateway to Chanhassen. t.,e get back into this quick gateh,ay issue and I'm
noL sure there ever wiII be or that it means a whole lot to Chanhassen. Ithink but it still looks Iike we've got a lot of Iot coverage in a veryLittle area. It Iooks real dense and I can't visualize hou we make itattractive righL now. I just can't do it. It looks like it's not what{e're selling in Lhe rest of downtown so somehoul I need to be persuad€d at
some point in time that this is really a dynamite PUD that reaLly is anatLractive €ntrance to dourntown. Right now it looks to me, there are 4permitted uses and that's fine and they could be done as a regular, Iotsgoing in there and they don't need our approval. So I guess my comment is,I don't have a problem with the PUD. I agree with most of staff's commentshere in terms of some concerns but iE's just hard Lo visualize the overallbenefits that we're getting in terms of architecture. In terms ofIandscaping. In terms of this nice entrance to Chanhassen. I think Iot
coverage is my biggest issue right now. It looks like 9OZ impervioussurface and I don't Lhink it is but it's certainly not Iow. It's likewe're cramming so much in then I worry what kind of entrance. tJhat kind ofvisual that is !o Chan so t,he commenLs here generally are let's table it.Let's get some more inpu! from some folks. I don't know, what do you think
Brad?
Bvad Johnson: tlell, Iet me tell you. One of the reasons you have density,I had the same problem when we did the apartment building over here, is youcan't do it unless you have density. Density means more tax revenue. Thisis a tax revenue supported land so r.,€ come in there. Rieht now ue'retaking, for example this site from producing, assessed valuation of about
Ahrens: t"lell I guess I would agree to tabling it. I mean there's a lot ofquestions that I have about this Lhat weren'L answered and I'm not prepared
to vote on anything tonight.
Planning Commission Meeti ng
July 18, 1990 - Page 50
35OO,OOO.OO and we're going to upgrade to 3 million. Okay? That means ifit goes from generati.ng about t25,OOO.OO a year in taxes to t15O 'OOO.OO ayear in taxes. That's what the HRA gets interested in. That's what theyget excited about. Okay? And because you gen€raLe, their job is to
generate taxes. The density is needed in order to do the publ.ic portion of
the job. I have to be able to add enough projects in there. I mean thisis real life, to do it in 3 years increment which is another restraint thatI have. I happen to have thaL 3 years of increment to use so I get about
i3OO,Ooo,oo or $4oo,ooo.oo of public assistance to do the job. That
includes buying ouL the current car wash..,8 or 9, and these are jusL the
numbers. The current car wash cost if you look in the public record is
Olao,ooo.oo on it's own. I've got to take that down so to throw it aII
away to do this and we don't need to do it but that's the public lot so the
HRA looks at me and says fine. It's fine if you do that if you generate
enough and guarantee it, enough new projects on this site to pay for it.
They don't spend money that we don'! pay in taxes. You see that's the
Catch-22.
Erhart: Brad I've got a question. Did I understand
from Hardee's say that they were uilling just to buy
anyh,ay or did I miss something?
Erhart: The other thing I'd like to clear
having a Hardee's in this location so Ron,
heard negative. I don't think so.
the
the
feIIow, Ron
car uash and build
Ron ohe: See the problem is he's not urilling to seII.
Brad Johnson: He's not willing to sell.
Erhart: He's not willing Lo seII unless you move him?
Brad Johnson: Right. And you have to find the increment to do it.
up. I'm real excited aboutI don't know you stated that you
Brad Johnson: So r.,here I'm coming from is that in the HRA side of the
world ue have to generate, and the toun is getting more and morerestrictive. Not more relaxing on how much money they make available for
these kinds of projects. They're trying to 9€t everything to 3 years.trell, that's tough to do.
Erhart: Have been working uith the HRA on this?you
ForBrad Johnson:a year.
Erhart: Okay, so if someon€ were Lo come in,
Brad Johnson: t"lhat hurt me is, they're Looking for input from you. Okay?If you read this whole thing, we've been through this r,rith th€ HRA andthey're wondering what you think about it. Now where you say you'd Iike to
see it improved and be Iess dense and aII this kind of stuff, I don't have
any problem with that if I could figure out how to do it financially. Andif all of a sudden the Planning Commission said Lhat this is a highpriority thins for the City, the HRA should make money available to do it,
Planning Commission Meet i ngJuIy 18, 1990 - Pase 51
we'd probably be doing it a different r.ray but right now I'm kind ofrestricted from urhat I can actually do. Okay? Now ue could leave, I don't
know if Ron roould agree to this. I could leave the car uash there. Vacatethe street and I save a lot of money alright? tle could put a Hardee's inthere without anywhere near the density you see because I wouldn't have tobuild the new car urash. These are aII little business issues we've had to
9o through. What you see there is a plan that Mr. Brown's agreed to andHardee's has agreed to. Okay? In that order. And if I don't have theiragreement, then the HRA has to condemn the car wash and kiss it good-bye
and maybe the)z're willing to do that. Then ue don't put a new car uash inthere. I mean these are the problems I'm faced with and these ar6 all. sortof political at that poin!. There is no car rash th€re anymore. He have anice site for a restaurant and hre put one in there because ule still have tohave a buyer. A tenant and we're sitting on this thing for 2 or 3 years.
l.Je're to the point now that we just have to do something and what we'regoing to do, I mean I know what we're going to do so I can't take atablins. Okay? Because we don't have the time. Right now hre're into oureighth month of this discussion with the City trying to work t.hrough theprocess. So if it's tabled, I think we're just pulling the deal and we're
9oin9 to go do something else. I don't think Lhe tabline process is uhat's
supposed Lo happen here. I think it's just supposed to go to the CityCouncil and if the City Council says yeah, Brad go ahead and do it, I'lI soahead and do it because I know they have the votes okay? I mean if theysay this is uhat He rant done, then I've got to come back to you and get aplan right? BuL I know, this is the process I'm supposed to go through.
And I hear h,hat you're saying and I'd like to address aII your issues. Ijust don't know if I can. The density issue okay? And still, finance theproject. Maybe Lhe HRA can figure Lhat out because you've got Lo set thepriorities that you'd like, how you'd like to see it. I think if you cameto the HRA through the Council and said this is what ue'd Iike to have thislook like, we'd work on it. I mean as long as somebody helped us financeit', okay? Then, so I think as I understand the concept plan, you vote yeaor nay. You like it or you don't like it. It should be or should not be aPUD. They've got about 10 reservations there Lhat I thought urere Iegitthi ngs . tle don 't agree lrith a couple of them . l.taybe there 's a coupleother ones. It goes onto the Council and at that point r.,e run into a stonebrall in there, whether the HRA wants to do it or not, we won't. Normally
ue always had the HRA approve the project first in total design and then
brought it through. If you recall correctly beeause the HRA does have the
design control over this. They have to approve design. That's their role.I mean you recommend but they have the killing cffect on the deal where you
have TIF and I admit this is a Cough deal to do- I'm not comfortable doingit except I don't know, my other choice is to just lct it go back and do 3things and if lhat's $hat you guys Hant, that's fine uith me. But it tookus a Iong time to get it assembled. The next time around the city cost ofthis would be 4 or 5 times Hhat He, you knou the City cost to buy this on a
condemnation process would be enormous. tlell, okay? So I woul.d just Iiketo see it 9o on to lhe Council and if Lhey are like you are, procedurally,
I think that's the right procedure. You're not voting on anything thattechnically affects it are you?
Conrad: tJe have to.
Brad Johnson: That's
He
al I
have to vote yea or nay.
H€ ask for.
Erhart: Yeah I know but what we've got here is essentially you've got,
weII I don't knor.l . Is Lhere a deLailed bunch of...
Conrad: But anytime hre vote y€a or
tablins. If ure don't feel we. . .
nay, we sure have the option of
Brad Johnson: I don't
That's uhy .
know about in this particular process you do or not.-
Emmings: No, we clearly can. The thing is, if we don't act within 60
days, you can ask the city Council to act without our recommendation but I
totally agree with Brad. I think we should vote on this and get it ontothe city Council and find out what they think because it seems Lo me that
what the general concept plan stage does is do exactly wha! Brad is saying.-
It's a basic intent and a very general nature of the entire development.
Getting specific information is required later at the development stage at
which time ue still have every opportunity to say no to the project
Erhart: But Steve that's not what the staff recommends though. I meanI read the recommendation here. It says that Lhe proposed Chanhassen.
Emmings: l.lhen do we ever listen to a staff recommendation?
Erhart: Be given PUD concept plan approval contingent upon all these Iist -of things. I mean we're gett.ing pretty dog gone specific and I guess ifwe're jusL going to say here okay, yeah. tJe think it's a great idea to
Iook at this as a PUD period, fine. I'm ready to vote on it. But if we're-going to get into details in here and stuff, I'm not ready Lo vote on it.
BatzIi: t"lel l I think can clearly change the staff recommendation.
EIIson: t^le don't have
gener a I .
!re
to
Erhart: General thing, I think it's a good idea to look at the areas.
Emmings: See t,then I read that I took it to mean r.le're going to give thisgeneral approval and th6se are areas that we think need attention. tlaybe
among others so I didn't read those as specific conditions so much as staff
drawing their attention to what things have to be looked at to get approvalIater on at the development stage. So I don't knour, that's the uay I lookat it. I think tabling it is not appropriate. I really don't.
Conrad: Given uhat the purpose of this sketch plan is.
Conrad: But it's treated. It should not be a detailed deal and I'd preferto move it on also but uith our specific concerns and they're not aII the
on€s that the staff has outlined here. Does somebody.
say ulith 7 conditions. tle can just say in
Planning Commission Heet i ng
July 18, 1990 - Pase 52
Emmings: Don't say that.
Planni ngJuIy 18,
Commission I'leet i nE
1990 - Page 53
So is the idea we're just basically going toof a PUD and say nothing about conditions andfor some of our concerns?
El.I son :
co ncept
l,li nutes
say .
t hey
Conrad: tlell, I think ue can pick and choose ulhat we uant of the staff
recommendations to go forward and then any others that we brought up but Istill, we have a choice. l.Je don't have to say He like this. I think wecan very easily say we Iike the concept of a PUD uith certain conditions.
Emmings: Or say, ule like the general idea of a PUO and ask the CityCouncil if this is the direction the City Council deems appropriate forthis piece of land. Then send it back Lo the developer and us and ue,II
make it as nice a plan as lre can.
EIIson: Right. That's r,rhy we recommend f irst.
Conrad: That's why I want to knoh, what we consider right for this land.If ue think this is the right density for this and the right design and ifHe're comfortable, than I don't even care what they think. I really don't.
ErharL: Not comfortable. I'm not comfortable with getting into lhesespecifics when I'm not comfortable with the whole thing. f mean h,e cantalk about backing out of a parking spot but it's meaningless in my mindtoday because I'm not comfortable with the whole thing. The only thing I'mcomforlable sith today is that yeah, Iet's deal uith it as a PUD. I Lhinkthat's a good idea.
Conrad: Yeah. Hou much furlher can you go?
Erhart: I need more sell. I need to be sold. I need to see someelevations and some drawings and some other things.
Conrad: Are they elevations basically from the road? Are you concerned
about visual appearance from TH 5?
Erhart: Yeah. Some more details on traffic and the thole thing-
Conrad: But thos€ details come later on Tim in this process. It's like r.lego back to the sketch plan that I like to caII it. The general plan as itis called. It's sort of the time that they come in and sa)z $,hat do you
think guys, and women? Do you kind of like this idea and then we say. wellyeah but the lots are a little bit too small and ule'd like to add here andthere nithout real specifics ao the developer can 90 back and ma)zbe massagethat. But the devatoper, I'm not sure if I'm building any consensus rightnow. I misht be destroying it.
Ahrens: tJeII I like the idea of a PUD but if this is uhat we have Lo
accept as a PUD, then I'd rather see it developed individually.
we approve thejust have our
Conrad: But you know I don't know that I care about uhat they considerright for this piece of land.
PIanning Commission Heet i n9
JuIy 18, L99O - Pase 54
Conrad: okay, Iet's do this. ff we xanted this develoPed as a PUD, what
would ue like Lo see changed on this plan?
Ahrens: Do r.,e have to do Lhat now?
Conrad: Don't, no
Emmings: See I don't think you can say that until you
about uhaL it's going to Iook Iike and see the numbersfinal plan. I think that's real hard. As soon as you
then I Hant to see more detail before I give my ansu,erthink the sLage for that -
conrad: So basically, what d
Hant to teII them that we don
you hrant to te] I
know . tJe don 't
wor king on
honest.
City Council? You don't
know uhat He $ant to do.
o't
inErhart: I'm very i nter ested
Emmings: I don't mind. It'd
Batzli: tlel] I think b,e want
most part we want to see it as
it as a PUD
to develop uniformily. I think for the
uniform, nice gateway to the City.
be
ir
a
EIIson: And Mom and Apple Pie.
Eatzli: tlell no but I mean, it'd be nice if it had a cohesive Iook instead
of the north of Eden Prairie Center Iook which in my mind isn't cohesive ataII. It's a bunch of buildings put together. Autonotive shoP here. Crown-
Auto there. Midas shop there - You know and I don't think it really ties
together very nicely.
conradr Is this tied Logether nicely that we see in front of us?
BaLzli: l.le don't know. I mean that's uhere I think you need to Iook atthe elevations and things but that's later down the road and I.'m almoststarting to agree that let's just say yeah. tle'd Iike to look at this as
PUD and then they come in with aII the information that we need and we
approve it or don't approve it but, you're right. tle don't have enough
information in front of us to say this is cohesivc. No it isn't cohesiveat this point.
Ahrens: l.lelL how valuable is it to the City Council that lre say ),es, we'd
like to look at it in a PUD?
Conrad: Yeah, that seems like no input Nhatsoever .
have is simply to pass it on uith aEmmings: tJeII the other choice ue
negative recommendation.
Ahrensr Yeah, I think that's what we should do. This is not hrhat He rant.
Either it's because u,e don't rdanL the specif ics or r.re don't have enough
information to say yes. I don't think we're giving them anythine by just
saying r.re like the idea of a PUo. That means nothing. It's meaningless.
know more speci fics
in there and their
ask that question,
and this is not I -
Planning Commission Heet i ng
JuIy 18, 1990 - Page 55
Emmings: It has a certain charm.
Conrad: Joan, you've been negative on everythins tonight. I'm glad I'm
not on the agenda .
Emmings: Ne understand that.
Brad Johnson: No, I don't think but that's, ue don't hear that. tle're
sittins out here saying, wait a minute, We have done what we're supPosed
to do as far as information. Not{ you can say }Je reject this as a PUD.
That's f ine -
BaLzIi: That's what we're talking about right now Brad.
Brad Johnson: But you're saying you reject it because you don't
enough information. t.Je've given you al.I the information we i.,ere
to at Lhat point. That's all I'm saying.
Conrad: No, we understand that.
Emmings: l.re're on the same uavelength.
Brad Johnson: Okay.
Conrad: That's real
have
required
E.I I son: Then let's
information Lhat ue
c lear -
do that. That lre reiect this individual uith the
have as a PUD .
Erhart: That'a what
on.
Ellson: No, no.
he's saying you can't do- You can't reject it based
Batzli: She 's saying she's going to reject it on the information xe have.
Erhart: That you can do.
Ellson: !,jhich is f ine.Come back nith more and they can look at it.
do it. You're saying come back uith elevationsBrad Johnson: You can 't
and that stuff.
Brad Johnson: As a point of order, I just have to deal with this. t^le are
followins your procedures. Okay? And you are supposed to vote on it today
with your procedure. 1.,e're following it. tle don't Iike the procedure
eilher. PauI doesn'L like the procedure but your procedure is, se bring a
concept to you. You pass it on and then we come back and give you a).1 the
information you're looking for.
Ellson: No, I',a saying that it goes on to city Council and if thev want
it. Go ahead Lhen it t^riII be back with city council's aPProval. That's
uhat I'm saying. Not you'll be back because we tabled it or anything like
Planning Commission tle€t i n9
July 18, 1990 - Page 56
tJildermuth: I would reject it based on density. Period.
Conrad: Okay, is Lhere a motion?
Ellson: Go for it Joan.
Ahrens: You uere the Iast to sPeak-
EIIson: It hras your idea.
Ahrens: I move that the Planning Commission, I don't have my thing in
front of me. I rnove that the Planning Commission not recommend the
proposed Chanhassen Auto Service Center PUD concePt P]'an as submitted. Is
that sufficienL?
Ellson: And I'11 second it,
Ahrens moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission not recommend
approval of the proposed Chanhassen Auto scrvicc ccntcr PUD ConccPt Plan as-
submittcd- Ahrens, Ellson, Conrad and llildernuth voted in favor. Batzli
and Erhart voted in opposition- Emrings abstained and the rotion carricd
sith a vote of 5 to 2
Emmings: I haven't voted yet. I need some time to think about this.just going to sit this out. I'm going to absLain.
I'm
Conrad: So the reason, Iet me see if I can summarize.
turning it down at this point in time are as follows.
too dense a development .
The reason foroensity. Seems Iike-
tlildermuth: Number one.
Ellson: It's something that Chanhassen gets from a PUD. The trade-off.
Th€ PUo Lrade*off is the other thing that we're looking for.
Conrad: The benefits that Chanhassen is deriving from the PUD.
Emnings: Yeah, because lhe int€nt of the PUO plan is to encourage creative-
site planning and subdivisions of high qualitr.
EIIson: So we're looking for that too. Those are the tuo biggies.
conrad: Anything else? The reasons for those who voted for it ere lrhat?
that. It uiII come around.
Conrad: The rationale for the turndown on a 5 to 2 vote.
Conrad: You abstain. 4 Lo 2.
Batzli: ceez, I hope you didn't do closing arguments in a trial today.
You've been wishy washy all night, I can just picture it. Your Honor. Idon't know shether to find them negligent or not. Forget it.
Planning Commission Heet i ng
July 18, 1990 - Pase 57
Erhart: I was convinced at the end that it was genaral aPProvaL of a PUD
concept and that I guess I was convinced thaL it uould aII come back and
then we'd dig into it. tlhat I was really voting for was a general aPProva]
of PUo and not much else.
Conrad: And Brian you voted for against the motion.
Eatzli: In essence I uould have recommended that h,e aPProve it as a
conceptual sketch of a PUD in this area. I think I would have liked to
have seen what the improvemenLs Chanhassen got included. For instance'
redoing the existins buildins. Hoving the car wash in. I think that helps
the gatetray aspect of the city. I urould have liked to have seen additional
information and the onl.), uay we're going to see that is if either ' weII is
if the City Council apProves it so they can dig in and g€nerate the
information.
Emmings: You want Lo knot,r why I abstained?
EIIson:No
If
thank you.
you can'L make up your mind,le don't hrant to hear it,
abstained?
Er hart :
Emm i ngs :
Conrad:
Emm i ngs :
Are you
No. It's
No it's
So this
going to ask me why I
per sona I .
not. Because I
Conrad:item will go to
OPEN OISCT'SSION:
Krauss: Mr. chairman? At this Point xe've had two gentleman waiting here
to speak to you this evening to shot{ you or discuss uith you the concePt
plan that they developed for Sunridge Court that I had Passed out earlier.
Hr. Alvey is here to give you a brief discussion of that. I did Pass out
copies of that carlier.
Emmings: Ooes he know uhat action ue've taken already?
Krauss: No.
Emmings: Because it's going to eatisfy some of hie.
Krauss: tlell you might Hant to discuss it. No, he was not a$are of the
work session.
Conrad: Do we have the plan that Ne can show him? Basically we met for 2
hours earlier tonight tat king about the ComPrehensive Plan and in that
time, as of the Commission, we decided to char€e the ProPerty to the north
of you to residential and uP to uhat Point PauI?
agree r.,ith everybody -
the City Council August 13th? okay.
Kraussr easically it's the cram's property t.lith that north fence line of
the cram's being the break point r.rith the area north of there to remainpretty much largely as it's shown. Some of your ideas xould, this idea
over here r.,as not thought of very ueII because of Timberuood but some ofthe property over here was looked at and as I understand the motion, those
two parcels uould be brought, well this one which is totally excluded, thatwil] be brought in as an industrial site. This one south, the one there
the dirt's being hauled out. The black dirt, would be brought in. Those
basically make up the loss of this. The buffer yard tould be brought
around through here and up below the balance of Audubon. It would also be
brought along through here behind the wetland because the wetland gives aphysical separation with a lot of trees.
Jerry Alvey: The buffer yard?
Krauss: As we envision it, r,rhat we've discussed so far is a strip of Iand
dedicated solely to Iandscape screening. In ar6as where you're faced
against residential ue put numbers down and we figured it uould be 1OO feeL-
wide and areas up against the road srould be 50 feet wide. Setbacks from
neu development would be measured beyond tha! so th€ strip of land is
permanently dedicated... Developers would be required to install it.
conrad: so in light of that, maybe you
in mi nd.
can dir€ct your comments wiLh that
Jerry Alvey: On the Gram area, this one here...
is residential and th€se tHo areas remain wiLh 5o
okay, so from here donn
Krauss: Nell 50 over here. 1OO here. 1OO here.
Planning Commission |le€t i n9
July 18, 1990 - Page 58
Jerry Alvey: okay, I guess in effsct I am representing approximately 55
househol.ds, none of which are in the Lake Susan area and I don't know howthe would respond to this 50 foot buffer zone. It gives them something butI'm not sure if that wil] be deemed appropriate or not so I can't comment
on that at this point in Lime. The buffer zone uith landscaping is anexcellent concept but I can tell you my concern h,ith that. This area here,if you look at it is approximaLely 969-970 feet hish. This area here is
97O feet high. This area in here, nhich this is not tr€es. This is flat. -This area is approximately 1OO feet louer. In terns of screeninE, I uouldguestion the efficacy of any type of screening in this area visually r.lheniL's being looked at from 1OO feet down. f certainly am pleased uith this.-I'm pleased with this. I think that I'm happy with that. Again, I can't
comment on this. This area rith resp€ct to the scrcening. It disturbs mea little bit. one of the concerns that I have, not so much a concerh but arequest. In looking at the proposed ar€a 5, when I mentloned this to PauI -a little bit earlier, 5 is 9oin9 to go to 4 lanes rhich is approximately afreeway. One lray or another it's 55 mph for 4 lanes and I knon that v€ry
few people residentially Iike to have their home that close to that type of-a road. I u,as wondering uhy these areas here uould be considered to bereeidential right next to the road where areas that have certain amenitiesthat don't have this proximity to a 4 lane road rould be consideredindustrial.
€lIson: That's medium density right?
Krauss: l.IeI I it's medium density which allows you to do lot more intensive
Iandscaping. . ,highuay. You take out the physical seParation of the highuay
by this frontage road which is pushing things further north' Up in here
too you have a lot of t€rrain and trees that tend to bring vou aeray. In
addition too there's a real concern that you consign aII frontage on aII
highurays over to non-residential uses. tle end up uith striP rous or
corridors. EarIy on the Planning Commission discussed a number of
instances ulhere residential uas develoPed effectively near highuavs and
decided that forcins it, if you r.till, uras aPProPriate in several Places.
That being one of them.
Jerry Alvey: I can't say I'm totallv Pleased with that because I still' as
I stand back and I look aL this, I see kind of a striP develoPment that has
kind of a...aspecL Lo it here and we're hoping to get a ]arge residential
concept in here which uould kind of balance the residential and see if
there's, since there doesn't seem to be any industrial office to the north
of TH 5, that siCe seens Lo be saying...
Doug Barinsky: Just a Procedural guestion on your changes that you
suggested tonight. oo you go back nou and redraw it and Lhen make Lhat
aviil.blr to the public to see what suggestions and revisions?
Conradr tlhat He're saying right nor,l is thaL we're going to present it.
hJe've heard different comments from aIl sectors of Chanhassen and we're
making our minds up as to what to Present in a public hearing. t'lhat uejust did in the area that you're concerned about, that's what ue're going
to present. It doesn't mean it doesn't change from that after a public
hearing but we're not.
Doug Barinsky: I understand. That is the next steP?
Conrad: The public hearing, risht.
Doug Barinsky: It's a Procedural question.
Jerry Alvey: Because I would be interested in some of the boundaries for
the proposed buffers actuallv are. It's not clear uhere that is..- If
buildings trere actually, industrial were actually to be Put on the crest of
the hiIl and that might be something that any amount of screening would noL
cover .
Krauss: The top of the hill is right in here and Ron Gram's house is
someuhat down here a little urays-..so I think visually there's--- You
where your home is, you're up higher looking across but as you move to
north and south, and on the r.rest side of Audubon it's actuallv higher
there so just because you're Pushing the uses beyond Lhat--.
Jerry Alvey: That may ueII be effective because I'm conc€r ned abouL
strip in here as well. ...interested r.rhere those boundaries fall and
can't reaIIY cornnenL.
k nour
the
over
thisI
Plinning Commission l'leetingJuly 18, 1990 - Pase 59
Planning Commission l.leet i ngJuIy 18, 1990 - Page 60
Krauss: tlell we wiII be making up neh, maps. tle had a ]ist of about 10
issue areas for the Planning Commission to tak€ a look at. l"le didn'Lfinish them. I've got to meet with them again to finish that before we do
the map but oe HiIl generaLe a new map.
Jerry AIvey: Alrisht- Thank you.
Conrad: Thanks for coming in.
APPROVAL OF HIMJTES:
OI{GOING ITEHS:
Conrad:
COIIPREI{ENSM PLAII-
Hant to 9o back?
Let's get them done so lre don't have to come back next
Do w€
Yeah.Enmi ngs :
ueek.
Conrad: Let's see. tle'lI give you 15 minutes PauI .
Emmings: Are there some we can get rid of real quick? Are there some thatare easier than others? 1995 study area. Let's do that one.
Krauss: Okay, 1995 study areas. Tim and some of the residents have raisedguestions about what we intend to do with the rest of the city and it's avalid question. I think it r.rould not be inappropriate for us to <ro through-a preliminary design process for the study areas basically so people know
r.that we're expecting. tlhat I've indicated through is that at this point,
throwing that into the mix is really 9oin9 to bollex up the schedule andtrhat I urould visualize, I uould hope that you might agree to is if ue areto launch a study effort for those study areas, and I rould suppor! doingthat, thaL u,e try Lo Lrack that after ue're done uith this compr€hensiveplan and that it be kind of an ongoing program.
Emmings: I agree. I think that's the risht approach - I think ue shouldleave them as 1995 study areas and then jump on that as soon as hre get done-with this process .
EI Ison:I agree.
I agree.Ahrens:
Batzli moved, Emmings seconded to approve the Minutes of the Planning
Commission meeLing daLed June 20, L99O as present,ed. AII voted in favor
except Tim Erhart, Annette EIIson and Jim tJildermuth uho abstained and the -motion carr ied .
Batzli: I personally think we should somehow strong]y indicate thatportions of Lhose uill be commercial during this process.
Emmings: Oka)r, you're assuming people are so dense that uhen they see apiece of propert.y on the corner of two highways th€y r4on,t figure that out.
Planninil Commission I'leeting
July 18, 1990 - Page 61
BatzIi: Yes.
EIIson: Yeah but still, I think that's whv we're saying studv area because
Ne're not promising that and sotneone's going to juoP on us for that exact
reason. We have it shaded PurPIe over there-
Ernmings: okay, r.lhat do you Lhink ue ought to do? Just say it's Possible
that this one on the north side.
Batzli; potential commercial areas within the study areas. That's aII
you 've got to say.
Emmings: Fine. I'lI vote for that. And then re'll studv it after -
Ellson; It's got the Potential to be anvEhing though.
Batzli: I know but I want iL to be clear to everybody that potentially
commercial's going to 9o in those areas.
Emmings: High potential for commercial develoPment.
Conrad: Y€p.
Krauss: ]"le could add it to the key .
conrad: I think ue should.
Emmings: l.le've got to move forlard risht?
Krauss: Right. I'II cornbine 6 and 7- HoH about that?
Emmings: Good.
Krauss: And in fact I'Il combine, hre got a letter from clark Horn tonight
asking about Lhe availabiliEy of commercial land doun here on TH 1ol and
2L2. It Has Clark's belief, as I read the Ietter, thEt there l^,as an
insufficient suPPIy of commercial around this intersection. AI Klingelhutz
has asked in the past Lhat we consider this area around here, He're showing
as townhomes...is also bisecLed by a uetland tha!'s very difficult to
develop and I think, is it office or something that you sar.l back there?
AI Klingelhutz: tlhat I uas looking at' this looks like a verv small
commercial area for a maior interchange. To me it's sort of major. You
count 86th Street here, you,ve got this ueLland area in here and it's
taking at least some of this. A nice buffer is there aLready. Across th6
streei Lo separat€ from the medium densiLy uould make a lot of sense to
inelude some of this in the commercial area. It pouldn't have a lot of
acres but you end up with, you look at this narrow striP in the highwav and
. rn"jot inlerchange and a wetland area. It iust seems to me that after
i""iins a! the uails that are along the highsays, that you have a real nice
buffer-area back there and wouldn't need that lrall in order to Protect the
noise from a major interchange- For residential-
Planning Commission Heet i ng
July 14, 1990 - Page 62
Conrad: He wants to add more commercial . Hore red.
AI Klingelhutzr l.lore comm€rcial in this mediusr density here.
Enmings: Okay.
AI Klingelhutz: Hixed use.
Conrad: Extend the red to the east but still buffer
r.lith a higher densiLy and then moving into the Iouerred to an orange.
from the commercialdensity? So from the
Krauss: t.,ell this Iittl.e pocket, you may get away $ithout having the
dounsizing of a townhouse or something else. There is this sLreet
separation here. The trees sLart right about here and there's a problem, -
I mean it's going to be, commercial is not nec€ssarily a bad idea. IL'spretty marginal. It's a tough site to develop because of the wetland.
Because of the frontage. If someLhing were to develop there, it wouldprobably not be terribly intense because of those Iimitations. Now thisfigures in I think to an extent with Clark's Ietter which in general terms
speaks about moving the commercial at that intersection. AIso Brad Johnson-gave us a Ietter about commercial at TH 1O1 in general. I guess, I don't
know how you h,ant to take that but there's quite a bit of mixed use land
south of the intersection. tle duelled on that a little bit a long timeago. It used to be sma]I areas where it was residential pocket.,. I think-there's probably about 20-25 acres in there which is a considerable chunkof land. That's abouL as much land as is available for commercial use in
t.he uard property. At 25 acres you're talking about being able to
accommodate a shopping center and parking- That's $rhat they r.rould haveover here.
Erhart: Paul , excuse me, You're saying that that area Lo lhe south andlrest is big enough to do a Target?
Krauss: Yeah it is. Now it's not, presumably you'd prefer to have that on-the north side where you get this traffic stream going into dountosn and Idon't know. You start running into, you certainly have got conflicts withresidenLial areas...as you're getting up on Lhe uest side. Then you havedifficult terrain in here. As ),ou may recall a lot of that stuff l.tas
Iooked at $rith the 1O1 study that Fred Hoisington did about a year and ahalf ago and we pretty much adopted that as bras proposed since it had beengiven some public input at that point in time. tte have a large chunk ofcommercial on the l.lard property and that repr6sents a conversion of landthat is currently, right here. That land is currently guided throughindustrial use as being changed by this plan to commercial primarily
because of Lhe relocation of TH 1O1 . So you have a significant sitethere. You have a significant site there and $rhatever you modify overhere. I guess personally I'd be reluncLanL to do too much more commercial .-I don't know how much the City could support but Brad may have somefeelinss about that too.
Emmings: Al , would you just stay and restate what it is you want to change-
on th€ map?
PIenningJuly 18,
Commission Meet i ng
1990 - Page 63
Batzli: tlhen is the plan, the bui.ldins of that whole i nterchange?
be the sLart ofKrauss: They're supposed to inconstruction. 1996-97 out here.
1993-94 is supposed to
AI KlingelhuEz: I know they're in
...som€ of this right along here.
Compl et i on .
the public hearings are going to be out
Erhart: Yeah, I think that intersection completion is scheduled for 1997.
Al Klingelhutz: About 95-97. Someone told me it's supposed to be
completed up to Lyman Blvd, but I've got to see that. I'lI feel lucky ifit's the year 2OOO. ...I've got a barn and creamery and machine shed andall those things there now. You've got a little thin strip of... I knowthe building's aren't going to be there forever. If you look at this real
narrow strip here and can angle that off a little bit and it makes it morefeasible for any kind of a site. High density here and high density here
and here you've sot a little corner in herE Lhat you want slngle familyresidence. It's just something that struck me a little odd in }ooking atthis IitLIe corner. I kind of Iook aL this as something that we talked
about earlier. You zone it medium density with the right kind of
development and people all around here think it's going to be some kind ofresidential . Here comes a developer in that wants 20-25 acres for a realgood commercial thing and you change Lhe zoning and €verybody that was toldhey, this rill all be residential , even if it's medium density. And you've
pushed this boundary out towards the single family, the problem you'regoing to have in the future are going to be exactly what you've been having
uhen you changed the zoning on uhat you're talkins about.
Emmings: ].le'll always have those problems. There's no way to get au,ay
from them.
AI Klingelhutz: If they wouldn't go for that sometime in the future it'd
be a lot easier to balance...
Conrad: Going back to the northeast part
comfortable changing it to a mixed use or
way it is?
there.
are we
Did we want, do we
comfortable keep i ng
Krauss: The area, if I can outline it is basically this orange clunp that
wraps around thaL red.
Emmings: I like the medium density in there myself. The only thing, if it
makes sense because of the location of thaL pond to push the commercial
betu,een the pond and the highway rather than having that be mediumresidential Iike he suggested, that could make sens6. I think ue'regetting down to real fine stuff here.
AI Klinselhutz: I would be satisfied r.rith that because over here there'sgoing to be some single family and I think the medium density would be agood buffer there but up to this point right here, I just feel it should be
something else because you 've got a good buffer there already. You've got
feel
it Ehe
the road. . .
Batzli: You're really looking for mixed use there though?
Al Klingelhutz: or mixed use.
Emmings: That'd be okay too. As I understand it, mixed use either gives
you residentiaL high density or commercial.
Al Klingelhutz: Or office.
conrad: l"li xed use is not bad .
Erhart: Gives us some flexibility later on.
Conrad: Sure does.
Ellson: I think as long as we're protecting thc yellow,
would go for.
Eatzli: I would prefer to 6oe it mixed use than force it
EmminEs: Bring the red along the highuay?
Krauss: This orange uould be mixed use.
Ahrens: No, not the wholc orange.
Ellson: But not all the orange. Stop it at the end.
Krauss: Right here?
Ahrens: No, no, no, That little cornor, yeah.
Krauss: This corner here?
Ellson: Yes so that the peoplo in the yelloo don't havc
having commercial next,
Brad Johnson: Is therc somc roaaon rhy you don't to usc
A[ Klingelhutz: tlell I don't know.
that's what I
to go commercial .-
a potential of
the orange there?
Brad Johnson: This particular corner is probablyfor commercial in Carver County because this uillarea. Developers such as myself, as soon as that
the most valuable cor ner
be your high trafficis available and this is
set , we're talking
conrad: You'II be
the year 2OO5, 2O1O.
reLired by then.
Brad Johnson: tlhat I'm saying is, as I look at this, this corner uiII be
commercial in the year 2OlO, yea, 2O2O no mattcr brhat you do today becauseit's going to be the highest traffic area in Chanhassen and it's going to
Planning Commission Heeti n9
July 18, 1990 - Pase 54
P Iann i ngJuly 18,
Commission Heet i ng
1990 - Pase 65
connect to the downtown and we in the downtown h,ant the people to make the
turn and come this way rather than drive down here or be picked up here in
some other city. They're not talking about tomorrow. We're talking aboutthe time to come back and redo that area after you guys have done it
because once there's, weII 2O,0OO cars a day going through here, sooner orIater somebody wiII start buying up the houses and farms and speculating
and doing whatever is necessary to do it. llaybe. Unless you build some...I don't know, did you say that the soil conditions and stuff up here inthis orange aren't.
AI Klingelhutz: No, that's good soil.
Brad Johnson: That's the best place in the l,orld where right now it's
vacant. There's nothing there. Okay. To me thaC whole area wiII be aperfect shopping center site and I don't own anything. I'm just tel).ing
you ,
EI lson: But we've already
"":
alBrad Johnson: BuL you only
on this side of the street.
Ahrens: But then they wouldn't make the turn and go down into downtown
Chanhassen if they sLopped aL the commercial.
Brad Johnson: But this group isn't going to go to downtown Chanhassen
anyway. But the people who live in doulntourn Chanhassen are going t'o turnto go this way and that's just going to generate traffic- By that time,
this wiII all be filled. The way a site uill have to be, the site's
t^rill...the one that may faII out is this corner over here because this
corner wiII become so strong and then the Eckankar site's, the south sideof Eckankar which today would appear to be a very good commercial corner,
may not be. I think that should be mixed use too aII the Hay to the churchpersonally because it could happen that this is hish traffic. l^,hat you've
got to look out for is you don't have enough land in the year 2OLO o( 2O2O
so you force commercial development out here if that's Nhat you don't want
to do and there are communities today that don't have, Iook at EdenPrairie as planned very cautiously to make sure that aII commercial ]and
around Eden Prairie c€nter. That l.las their plan. ft's frustrating for us
developers because you 90 to preserve and there is no land. You go to TH 4
and 5 and there's no land so anything thaL's comrnercial in Eden Prairie has
to be downtown which is called Eden Prairie and that's what their plan is.
They set it up so that that, isn't that right Paul? I mean that's tshe r.ray
it's set up. The core and development eoncept and that's what you're
saying you'd like to do. tle don't have enough land in dountoun Chanhassento tak6 care of that. okay? Long term and once this is in' is the maior
shopping center. The TargeL's and stuff like that, once this road is in,
this is where they're going to be looking. On this corridor. Right? I
don't see them Iooking in the dountoun area. I think ue like that and by
that tim6 u,hat we've got in dourntown is pretty weII developed. t'laybe it
only develops south of CR 17. okay? And then it's going to move this way.
The only way you're going to set that up is maybe just make that a part of,
because u,hat you're !alking about is a conceptual plan right? Someone has
comments from people that are Iiving there.
the present time have 10 people living there
P Ianni n9
July 1a,
Commission Heet i ng
1990 - Page 66
to come in and buy this. ].le know that may be 10 to 20 years away before
anybody builds there but the other aILernative...
Conrad: You knoh,, we've got a study area Brad that's right below that.
Brad Johnson: Just excuse me, this is not a good corner.
Conrad: Right.
Brad Johnson: On the right hand side...where the Rainbow is as you comethroush. If you're on the left hand side is a non-commercial cornernormally. It's Just the rulee of the game. Risht hand corner, this side
and this side are where the developers uant to be. They do not want to beleft.
Emmings: But if )zou don't give them the right, will they take the left?
Brad Johnson: They'll go doun, they could go someplace else-
Emmings: If )rou don't give them the right, will they take the left as a
second choice?
Brad Johnson: Let's look at TH 1o1 and TH 7.
Emmings: No, you've made the stat€ment that they uant the right and I'm
asking you if they can't have the right, will they tak€ the left.
Brad Johnson: ...until they find tha right.
Emmings: Even if it's out in Norwood or Young America?
Brad Johnson: You don't have to go..,the competition i.s uhat does
Eden Prairie do upstream and what do€s Chaska do dounstream. They're not
very far away in freeuay miles.
Emmings: I don't have any doubt that you're right and that these are rulesof thumb. I knou you're speaking v€ry generally it's Just that I have a
hard time believing that if that right hand corner isn't available, that
the left hand corner wouLdn't b6 a protty attractlvc alternativ€.
Brad Johnson: Oown h6re?
Emmings: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: I'm just asking, why wouldn't thia be available?
Emmings: llell we have eingle family resldantial ln right behind it rishtnolr. Risht?
Brad Johnson: NelI yeah but this is one big parcel . lt'6 one farm. onc
house .
Er hart :
now?
tlhat is that now PauL? That dog leg parcel there. l.lhat is that
Emmi ngs: t]eI I oneyellow area that's
area mixed use.
thi ns
noul a
Brad Johnson: I think mixed use is an out because it could be office
buildings. You're not going to get single family homes in there.
Krauss: Could I offer a counter point? lle're talking about a community
that in 15 or 20 years may have a population of about 3o,ooo whereas Eden
Prairie's looking at a population of about 60,000. l^le have amPle room for
shopping centers in town. In downtown in CBD, tle have Lhe tlard ProPerty.tle're looking possibly south of fH 2L2 in the future. That's anoLher one.
t^le're looking possibly if you buy Mills Fleet Farm and nobody has yet,
another one out there. I really besin to question in people's mind, how
much do you really need to support this community and suPPort Lhe
businesses in the community and to provide services for the residents? l.,e
really tried not Lo go overboard. I mean He've had landowners and
developers telling us that industrial's a great use for their property and
they knor.r and they're got a tenant for it if we iust say yes. And
repeatedly you've said well, that really doesn't matter. That's iust not
in the best interest of the community. Having a commercial strip road on
TH 101 between the downtown and TH 212 isn't u,hat was envisioned when TH
1o1 relocation was proposed. I guess I would advocate caution.
conrad: After TH 1o1 Paul , is there an int€rchange on 212?
we could do would be to move that orange into that
plowed field and make the entire orange and red
Al Klingelhutz: If you're going like Brad says, I
what's in red there now, uould coun! as something.
guess that orange area
25 acres.
Plann.i ng Commission Heet i ngJuly 1a', 1990 - Pase 67
A] Klinselhutz: This is all tilled field goins up to TH 1o1 here.
Ellson: The orange. tlhat about Ehe yellow next to that?
Al Klingelhutz: Right, the orange is aII tilled.
Emmings: So it's open field aII the Hay back to those homes now?
AI Klingelhutz: Right. Open field. Grass. Part of it's grass. Part ofit 's soy bean .
Brad Johnson: tjel] my point is, you've got the time to doing it. I'm just
saying, if you had to do it and you didn't have any other inPut from
neighborhoods and stuff like that, uhich you do get, that's iust a good
corner. As is the corner brhere the Eckankar site is potentially. There
are no other corners on TH 212 until you get to Chaska and Pioneer Road and
then Lhere's a slood corner-..at CR 17 and Pioneer. There's a 40 acre site
there- It's zoned commercial . That's xhat, down the road 2 miles?
Krauss: on 17 which is smack in the middle of this studv area. Now it's a
Iong way down the road but it presumably does provide anogher oPPortunity.
P I anni ng
July 14,
commission l''leeting
\99O - Page 68
Erhart: That's the HaI lahaven Farm r ight
This is r.lhere thatBrad Johnson: Yeah ,
here where that horse.
Brad Johnson: If
here as a buffer,
Conrad: I think b,e
buffer to the east
you said this was mixed
that's a lot of space.
use and you left this yelLow in
I mean that's empty right now.
nobr?
Iittle stable is up on the hill
Brad Johnson: Yeah, So you've got about 25 acres on that corner that
would support, b,e're on 10 acres across the street urith Harket Square.just giving you an example of size. That uras for office buildings or
something that would normally be on that kind of a corner.
I'm
Ahrens: RealIy what are we declding on?
Conrad: tlelI, we're Iooking at that inlerchange.
Ellson: 6 and 7 bre were }ooking at here.
Brad Johnson: I think the key there is if you let the uorld know it'sgoing to be that Hay, then it's okay. I don't really care. f'm just
saying, I don't have any land. I don'L have anything down there and Iprobably r.ron't be around when it's developed. I'm just saying that thatcorner, you should just think about it before you.
Conrad: Right now what ule're thinking about is r.rhat we h,ant to present tothe public and ure can come back and change that after the public hearing if
we feel it's right. I guess let me try to close in on that. Does anybody -
want to expand the commercial into the high density, orange into the northoff the interchange? Any feeling of doing that right now?
Emmings: Expand it to the norLh?
Conrad: Expanding it to the northeast.
Batzli: f don't uant to s€e that.
conrad: Okay. How many would like to take the hish density residential. or-
tshe higher density and turn that into the south, that ue originally sLarteddiscussing south of the, yeah, Right there. Hoh, many uould like to put
mixed use in?
Ellson: I could do that.
should do the
PauI of a hish
mixed use
density .
there for sure. Still with a
Yeah.
Emmings: Are you including a red in the mixed use?
AI Klingelhutz: This is the riding ring right here. And the buildings areright there.
Planni ng
J u 1y 18',
Commission Meeting
1990 - Pase 59
Conrad: The red
Krauss: L,e can
EI Ison: Let 's
is taken.
convert that alI
take the red and
to mixed use.
mak€ it mixed use too. Yeah.
Emmings: Then I agroe.
Erhart: The other one that I don't,
make thaL single family in that kind
surrounded by hish density?
why did vre take AI's farmstead and
of odd shaped line there ln the corner
Krauss: l.lell presumably TH 1ot played, and I l,asn't
had to do urilh some realignment of streets. Some ofto be vacated back there. Al , do you remember?
here but I thoughL itthe streets were going
AI Klingelhutz; I don'L r€call
in there.
exactly how that street was going to come
Ellson: Ther6 uras a good reason though.
ErharL: It just looks odd on this map.
Al Klingelhutz: ...off of here and hit this street somepl.ace here... Itjust don't see quite right the way that narroul strip is there. You'reputting 10 acres, or whatever this piece is and cut it off and figure well,
those farm buildings and everything is going to stay just like it isforever. But when you see how this is cut out.
conrad: tlhy don't you Lake a Iook at that. Iwith that. I don't have a clue. okay. Let's
mixed use developments souLheast.
don't havetal k about
a clue what to do
number 7. The
Krauss: Oh yeah, that's this chunk right over here. You were presented
tdith petitions that I think dated Ehe IH 1O1 study but somebody in here
said they didn't mind if this was medium density...mixed use.
Ellson: I like keeping it.
Conrad: l.,hy?
Ellson: B€cause they can still get what they lrant -
conrad: But there's no guarantees so they might, so
Batzli: Is it kind of Iike one of l.turphy's laws?
they probably won't
conrad: Yes. rf you live there, you know Hhat liould happen. so what
ue've got is a mixed use right up into residential .
Emmings: I think Lhe corner has to be, has to have commerclal uses on
This road is r.rhat's imposing it on him. Not us. There's no other way
go with EhaL piece I don't think.
iL.to
PIanni ngJuly 18,
Commission t'leet i ng
1990 - Page 70
Batzli: The pressure will certainly be there to develop it that uay.
conrad: tlhaL's the buffer beLueen that mixed use and residential PauI?
Batzli: There isn't any.
Krauss r There isn't one .
Ellson: The fact that it could be medium densi.ty or whatever.
Emmings: Do one of your buffer yards.
Krauss: tJel} that *ould be a place for Lhem.
Conradr Okay, I think lhat's what we're going !o do.
Ellson: tje're taking auJay people's land like it was nothing.
Emmings: t^lhere do lhese words come from? Buffer yard. I've never heardof a buffer yard.
Conrad: Jo Ann makes them up.
Emmings: Okay, we've done 6 and 7 haven't we?
Krauss: Yeah.
Emmings: l,Je're done.
Conrad: We have Hary HarringLon.
Emmings: No we don't. tle've already done that,
Ahrens: tle covered that a long time ago.
Emmings: That was implicitedly done xith what we did before-
conrad: As a commission, we've spenL some time on Lhis but I think there
have been petitions floated - People asking us to really take their ideas
ser ious I y .
ElIson: I think we have taken their ideas seriously.
Conrad: So
comfor tab I e
reasons and
nhen ue come to public hearing, we should aII be realand confident that xe made those decisions for particular
not because it uas quart€r to 12:OO.
Ellson: No but I think people who have come with petitions, we haveaddressed and we have looked at and in a lot of cases we've acted on it.
l,laybe not everything that they've uanted Iike Timberwood for example.
Emmings: I Lhink PauI should be responsiblethat ure did.for articulatins Lhe reasons
PIannin0July 18.
Commission Meet i n9
1990 - Page 71
Batzli: Do e,e xant to talk about, can reis the letter from, urho is it? Gary Kirt
included in the MUSA.
talk about two quick things?
about Ches l,,lar. He wants to
One
be
Batzli: Right, but that's unbuildable. That's about like 20 feet width.
Krauss: t,lel I , I think Brad thinks it's .
Batzli: No, it's 20 feet uide. Is it 50? Oh.
Krauss: ...existin9 Cenanl .
Brad Johnson: There's two things you've done. one in
The map you had. You had that public. Nor,, maybe it.'s
here, the one I sauJ.not publ ic .
there.
hre
aewer
doun there
Emmings: It's not publ ic.
Brad Johnson: If you were looking at what I xas looking at Nhen I Hrote myIittIe Ietter .
Emmings: It took us a long time to get him to fix it.
Krauss: It's our understanding that there's...development potential
I really think that re need to separate the two. To the extent that
u,ant to expand the I''IUSA to s€rve failing sewer systems. . .
Erharts
system ,
today?
Krauss:
Erhart:
No.
No.
l.lel I
l.lait a minute on that. Just because he's got a failing
they're 9oin9 to run a lateral all the Hay from Lake Ann
tlhere 's the
that's over
Presumably the HUSA Iine is right here.
seurer
here.
got a
Iine today?
Krauss:
Erhart: Because Lhey've
a lateral down there?
failins s€plic system, they're going to run
Emmings: Ches Mar is falling apart. It's Iiterally crumbling toground. I don't think we should worry abouL extending sewer intothat's just falling apart.
thea Place
Kraussr Yeah. I've spoke to, in fact Brad spoke to me about it monthsago. I don't have a problem uith Ches l.lar being brought into the MUSA.I just had a problem doing it in conjunction with the plan. Ches Marsticks out into this chunk over here. Apparently this property's
undeveloped and... To the extent that Ches Har has a failing sewer
system, I think that we have a responsibility to bring it into the HUSA and
serve it because we don't uJant obviously to pollute the ground Nater. I'mrelunctant ho0ever to think about extending the l.tUSA out...
Planning Commission l,leeL i ngJuly 18, 1990 - Pase 72
Batzl.i: No but it would give it the impetus to potentially develop it into-
something that we can be proud of instead of what's there.
Brad Johnson: Right no.., you've got a decaying situation.
Emmings: They ought to bulldoze the darnn thing and cover it up.
Conrad: I guess I don't have a problem running, if we run a sewer line
there. I don'L have a problem.
Krauss: l.lel I they would.
Conrad: They would have to pay for it.
Erhart: Yeah. Versus putting a new septic system in?
conrad: Tha!'s their decision but why not let them...
Krauss: ...feasibility study economically unviable. . .build a new sePtic.
Brad Johnson: ...s6wer across the road though? I mean you're talking 5 to-
10 year6 from now. l.lhen somebody puts seurer across the road?
Conrad: Yeah.
Erhart: But you ask us here today to put them in the MUSA Iine because
they had a failins septic?
KrauSS:No.That,swhyIdidn,tdothat.IthinkweshouldhandIethat
as a special request,
Erhart: Absolutely
Emmings: tle don't want to carve out little, including that.
Ellson: It took us 10 minutes to do what he uanled in tshe first place
Okay- tle agree with you.
Conrad: f don't know that I do. It's so$e proporty that, why isolate it? -
Batzli: They're totally isolated if ore do like ue do there.
Emmings: Dogwood is isolated.
Batzli: Yes, they are.
Conrad: ft seems ludicrous. We've got some houses in there and we're
zoning everything up to it for.
Emmings: They've got houses in there and nobody Iives in them.
Brad Johnson: No, Lhey're...
P Iann i n9
July 18,
Commission Heet i ng
1990 - Page 73
Emmi ngs :
are some
They arepeople in
not. Not according to the Gross' they're not. There
there but it's not fuII.
Conrad: See that's a valid point.
Erhart: But Lhen that was a gravity flow.
Krauss: Yeah- That one happened to work out that way.
Erhart: And the basis for that line, that diagonal running line is thateverything to the north and east is gravity flou and everything to the
south and west urould require a pump staiion. For tshat reason I think you
should make that Ches l.lar a unique situation xhen the time comes.
Emmi ngs: I agree.
conrad: l.lell I don't agree but.
EIIson: He had some split votes on these before and we moved along.
Conrad: That's right. l.lhy isolate them?
Brad Johnson: You've sot 3 other houses besides Ches l.lar Lhere too.
Emmings: Yeah, there's houses alI along there. There's houses down here.
There's one on Doswood in here.
Krauss! That's the reason the MUSA line is here. I'd rather leave it
there and if we have to do someLhing on an €mergency basis because
something failed, Iet's consider it when that request comes in.
EIIson: But it's not that l,e're just isolating them. There's a lot more.
conrad: Does everybody agree with PauI?
Ahrens: Yes,
Erhart: Yes.
Batz]i ! No. I don't but the reason I'd like to see something happen is
nothing wilI happen to that piece of property until it's sewered.
El.Ison: And you're in a hurry?
Erhart: The general basis of the line beLween the 1995 study area andthe MUSA is gravity f low. Does that have graviiy f lor{?
Krauss: [^le can serve... Again, ue're doing the same thing right now.
Remember a couple of months ago we expanded the MUSA on an 6m6r9ency basisfor Harvey and O'Brien? They commissioned or they asked us to do, theypaid for a feasibility study for running the utilities. If thatfeasibiliLy study comes in too high, I'm sure they're going Lo try torebuild the failing septic system.
Planning
JuIy 18,
Commission Meet i ng
1990 - Pase 74
Krauss: And that goes for aII the land.
Batzli: No, I know but that one is sort of unique because it's in the -state it's in. I mean ue've uanLed to do something about it and u,e can't
and here we have somewhat of an opportunity to try and promote that so that
something will eventually happen in the next 10 years and we're not doingit.
conrad: okay. there were
now but I think we've gotpublic hear i n9 .
enough votes to keep it lhe uayto look aE thaL in the future or
the plan
even in
is right
the
Batzli: I would also like us to ]ook at the business fringa and we'vetalked about Iooking ats thaL down on L69 /2L2 and we never really have
Iooked at that. Changing anything down there.
Emmings: I thi nkto deal uiLh it-
you ought to give that land to Chaska. It just is awful
Ahrens moved, BatzIi seconded to adjourn
and the motion carried. The meeting was
Submitted by PauI Krauss
Planning DirecLor
Prepared by Nann Opheim
the meeti n9.
adjourned at
AII voted in favor
11 :5O p.m..
Erhart: Is there any update on Lhat Paul?
cH[NHISSEI{
690 COULTER DRIVE. PO. BOX.I47. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
I,IEI{ORANDI'}I
TO:
rRou:
DATE:
SURT:
On l,[onday, Ju],y
actions:
Planning Comni.ssion
Paul Krauss, Planning Conmission
July 27, 1990
Report from the Planning Director
23, 1990, the City Council took the following
1 The final plat and development contract for pI*{T r sbuilding addition were approved. Grading work hasbeen started on the site.
proposed
already
2 The Sathre Addition was given final plat approval .subdivision is located on the north side of Iolus Lake.
The
The city vacated street right-of-way and utility easenents tosupport the Market Square Shopping Center project. Thedevelopnent contract for the project is expected to beapproved shortly. Construction is expected to begin on theproject some time before the end of August.
The City Council approved a project to upgrade Audubon Roadfron the Soo Line Railroad to Llman Boulevard. The street isbeing upgraded as a two lane roadway with sight distance andsafety related improvenents. Due to neigtr.borhood opposition,the eity Council deleted a trail sectj.on along auauUon Roadsouth of Lake Susan Hil1s subdivision.
Reconsideration of Great plains GoIf Estates on the HallaNursery property for Don Hal1a. At a previous meeting, theowner.had reguested reconsideration of conditions of approvalpertaini.ng to requirements for dedication of road rightl-of-wayalong Pioneer Trail and Hwy. 101. The plat wal approve&several years agJo, however, the orrner has refused to dldicaterequired rights-of-way and staff has refused to release thepIat. The owner requested that these conditions bereconsidered. At a previous meeting, the City Council askedstaff to consider a iealignruent of firry. 1ol tirrough the area
4
5
CITY OF
3
Report fron DirectorJuly 27, 199 0
Page 2
6.
a
7
which would remove a tight curve that is presently a safetyhazard. staff reported back to the City Council that inconversations with l,lnDOT, that such a realignnent istechnically feasible although it is not clear who would beresponsible for it or when it would be done. Impacted
neighbors south of the Hal-Ia property raised sone issues withthis proposal resulting in the City Councilrs inclination tocontinue action on this iten for further discussion. Uponhearing this, !lr. Ha11a withdrew his request forreconsideration, presumably so that he could proceed with theplat as originally approved.
The city Council authorized conducting a feasibility study forwater rnain extension to the John Klingelhutz property locatedin the northeast corner of Section 24 near Lake Riley. Thisis a large tract of land that is currently inside the MUSA buthas not water service. ft will be located south of the newT.H. 2L2 a short distance from the Hwy. LO1 interchange.Staff is working with the owner of the property on asubdivision proposal for approxinately 140 Iots.
There were several itens of interest discussed at the HRAneeting heLd on July 25th.
Brad Johnsonrs redevelopment proposal for the Hanusproperty was discussed at length. CornnissionersWildernuth and Erhart uere also present during thediscussion. staff gave a review of the project and thestaff report, along uith the planning Cornmissionreactions. The HRA looked at 3 options for this projectincluding not proceeding with the proposal, attenpting towork trith this proposal in a manner to refine it so ai tobecoue acceptabLe to resolve concerns raised by thePlanning Conmission and staff. The HRA, in discussingthe Tatter, had many of the sane concerns as the planning
Conmission did relative to quality and developnent;intensity of use, and traffic. The third option was aproposal by Brad Johnson to decrease intensity byrelocating the car rrash to a location within the ttanulbuilding. Accordingly to l,[r. Johnson, the proposalinvolved a substantial increase in the need fof taxincrernent subsidy to make the project econonicallyviable. The HRA ultinately told the applicant to atteupl,to rrork with the current plan and respond to the issuEsthat were raised. They were unwilling to considerincreasing the sulrsidy and most of the mernbers indicateda desire to place the City in a position to exercisecontrol over the site that rrould be offered by thisproposal handled as a PUD. There uas sone reluctance tosee the proposal die coropletely since rre rdould be leftuith a situation that is far from optinal with thelikelihood that lorreF quality developrnen. would result atsone point in the ffture.
Report fron DirectorJuly 27, 1990
Page 3
8.
b.Southrrest ltetro Transit presented a proposal to reLocatea park and ride facility froro its present location onl,[arket Boulevard to a location on the south side of
Borrling Alley Drive east of its intersection with MarketBoulevard. There are several reasons for considering therelocation including the need to respond to issues raisedwith the Market Place Shopping Center plan, plus
Southrrest lletrors desire to relocate the bus stop incloser proxinity to the parking stalls and facilitate
expanded usage of the park and ride 1ot. The plan rrasgenerally well received and the HRA indicated awillingness to selling the land at a noninat fee to
Southwest Uetro. Southwest I.Ietro rril} be refining plansfor the bus turnaround and park and ride facility for
review by the HRA and the Planning Conmission.
The ERA has been discussing inplications of condenningthe Red-E-Uix site on Hwy. 5 relative to Hwy. 101inprovenents. There is also the desire to see the Red-E-Mix facility renoved or relocated since it is asignificant detraction to the central business districtand to the irnage of the City. crowing out of thisdiscussion, it is apparent that there is a significant
financiaL advantage to the City if a site can be found torelocate the Red-E-I{ix facility within the connunity. Itis not a difficult sighting process, given the nature ofthis operation, although apparently a reconstructedfacility can be nade to look significantly better. The
IIRA is asking the assistance of the Planning Conmissionin reviewing and locating potential sites believing thatthe Planning Commission can drau on itrs land useexpertise developed in drafting of the ComprehensiveP1an. staff will be working with rred Hoisington to
prepare a packet for review by the Planning Cornmission at
an upcoroing neeting.
Eric Rivkin published a lengthy letter to the editor in theJuly 19th chanhassen Villager relative to the conprehensivePIan. In it he raised a number of issues that he has raisedpreviously but did it in a manner that I believe reflectedpoorly on the Planning Comuissionrs efforts and on the planitself as well as on staff. He raised issues that I believe
had been resolved with hiro in several previous forums and thetone in which the letter was drafted, was in my opinion,
somewhat uisleading and inflarntnatory. In discussing the
matter with the l,!ayor, he suggested that I draft a response toMr. Rivkinrs letter and attenpt to have it published in thepaper. I did so and this was published in the JuIy 25thVi11ager. Copies of both letters are attached.
.Bv Erlc Rlvklo
AccordinS to s rGocnl U.N. rG-
port, 'At thc start of lhc 199(h ]hc
itoicc musr be !o ac] dccisivcly lo
Elow populstion Srourrh, atlack pov-
crry, ard trorcct thc cnvirmmcnt.
Thc alternalivc is to haod on to out
ddldrcn a poisoocd inhcritance.'
This is nor an spmlyptic pcdic-
tian, nor 8m I a rEdirl c an alamist.
My cxpcricrm urgcs mc to act aod
Krpl lhc clwironmDnt I lhc b.sis
of oll] cxistcrE. Thc pionoc]s, wbo
bclicYcd thcy wcrc powcrful cmugh
to conlrol uE cnvirqrmcr , arc 8onc.
Today, wc arc ncw piooccra a na-
turc's hcslss durinS iB rcaurEio.
As Yc plsn thc us. of our lanq I
wantcd to mskc I diffcrrne. I pul
togclhcr a pctitioo with signaturl!
frqn 40 pcoplc rcprcscnring z7 prcp
cnics lo urSs ttE cily to lcavc a
sccrion of lard, lncludiog our largc
lo.s, out of rxc MUSA (ItlcEopouuo
Urbsn S€rvicc Arca).
Croccnls I sharc wifi my nciSh-
bqs foqrs qr thc conscquc06 of
bciog in or our of rtlc MUSA, whidr
mct oootrovcFy io thc Junc 6 city
planoing m€otin8, OrlG mcmbcr of
ihc oDmitim unfamiliar wilb coo-
stiruridosl righls bursl oul, 'TtEy
oughta bao pctitims", ard onout€r
forgeiting why msny of movcd to
Chantusscn gruntcd, 'If y8 doo'l likc
(devclellE ), go Epvc to lt/bd8na."
Thc saoc ralionale applies to lhcm:
"lf you dool likc to livc wilh lasSc
lots, thcn ntovc o Ncw York City.'
Thc rcassrs Yhy wc waoa to stay
largc lots should bc clcar 60 cvcry-
onc c8o undcrstard ard drporc
vicwpoinls.
Originslly, llr pctitim rrqucsrcd
rh8t largc-loa &siSnstim with no
scvcr, but that world llavc crrat€d a(butflG in ttr MIISA e*r n oG
rn 0ltq[ativs. ArIc] lhc Pctitioocrsvcrc surYcycd ond rold tbc qtsc-
qucnccE of bcing ln a out, oE gl.
scnsus wB ablr lsying oulr in as icuradqr thrt oroklcd (boul-
bolhl" r.GDGd ro bc Ulc b.a bof of
Iurrrntcclnt lho lnrcr.3rr of 9x) fr-
cent of llE origiml pctlllorlc]s. City
Pla lcr PEul Krsusc notcd rhc pao-
p68l avoids donut-holin& sincc ittc
propcnics join wcstcrly outsidc of
ahc MUS,{. TIIG McEopolitsn Crun-
cil accetrs ircgulEr bouodarics, likc
scb@l districrs, ss loog I lbcrr arc
lood rcasoats.- FirsL cnvirqlrpnl8l rcEdrs. ThG
EPA tlrsnd8rcd lbsl rbc Mclro Coun-
cil must imp(o\n watcr quality &oo
<lrlr watcrshlds by 1996. Nqt-poiol
sourcc pollution 18 a ltl8jor @oribu-
lor, and must bc mitis8tcd rDv, Tl&
city is slirady working cr wayr to
rEducc polluuon from cxisling rrd
Eddilional dcYclopmcnt. Bul tlF
proDlcm ls crislinS tcvcls of pollu-
doo arc unreptsblc. Evcn if mw
olsos iakc cffccr lo limc for fulurc
itcvclopnrcnq cxislng srorm rundf
snd DulricntE alrcady ln tbc hkca will
srill dccrc{sc watcr qualily. I bclicvc
&ar unril UE nulricoB in tb lakcs ars
clcsncd up and 0E cily ood ils citl-
z€ns cao rcdu@ polluunB mcosurE-
bly rtuough Sood Ystcl6hcd man-
agcmcnt Procliccs, to mudl devel-
oPmcnl will jusr ESgnvslc uro p.ob,
Letters
mu'-rlrcr- - Jimr" ^mcr,
anh walrcr thomatc, lrry simp&
wcrc rDt ablo lo paojcct an iErSo
of d€cisivcncss, sourd JudgMt
sird visioo. PcrhaF ltfl b a ssd
o(xnmcolrry m lhc slatc of US.
prcsidcntial poliaics whco YG
@osi(br that it wa RoDsld Rcsgro
who did cmbody rlrcsc rrslt&
Nomlhclcss, tho DcirEsttc Prny
sbould accpa as s givcn that tbclr
cardidatc musr Eornettov cEpluF
ard cmbody thc pcrclvod ncods of
50.01 pcrc of rhc poplatioo ln
oidcr to hsvc a drane lo lhc
Glcctoral ollcSo. h 1988, Mlctel
Dukalis was borcly ablc to cEptur
lhc rllcgisE of rtc oct dic.hrd
DctnocrEE.
Followiag Mr. Bush's Eo.
xlnocmcnt lhat ncw tar6 world
bc rcquircd io dcsl with rhc &fldr,
roolc lik€ Llovd Bcntscn sDd
hiclraro crpufoi tndicarco ml cn$ ln ruoning fo( pnsidoil lo
1992. lf rbcy do dcclalc, tho
DcmE8tic rradium of ruoDiog
lEcrs will onlinuc. .
Coosidcr Bcntscn, DukaHs'
1988 running rratc: Bcntscn rdcd
ln fava of Raagan's l98l tar cul.
In f!.r, oo orb3r DctrEatic
scoator r,olod wil! Prccldcot
heSlueflt rJI$eS Lr(Bdrrdtitc d,,eCti..rn'i.,I' I
Chanhassen's comprehensive land-use plan
lcm. Sincc limils oo develqimcnt
wcrc impoecd by 8 lG.acrc minimum
lot ouBidc thc MUSA maybc thc
Mcaro Coutrcil already orsi&rcd
wErcr quality impoat.
Eren ihrough 0E pairtalcrs want
lhc atr8 prcservcd with much opco
spocc, wc'rE not oppoccd !o sU dc-
vcloprncnl. Th3 h@tf,nclr oo thc
Mth sib of Lol(C lrcy Rod slDr d
F gblc rc dcvclop withour bcing
hin&nd by lbc prop6El. Dcvclop
c]3 who llal dcfioiE low-dcrBiay
Ucvclopmcnt plarls yould not bc
htdcrEd bccsusg tlrir lsnd is stloxrn
IrBidc thc MUSA onncqablc to thc
scwcr lrunk Tltqc E lax bosc can
bc s,prcad wbcrc it'E waotcd, and
bcgin lo pay for thc scyrr trunk
IrrSc lols can bc moG valuabb as ig
io olrsclvrs 8td lhc @omunity, thso
&vclopcd. It is wrong thar officials
prrsumc tonlo(rc wbo wEoB to
subdividc will cvcnlually occupy
Gvcry houschold, Erd havc policiG
rbat drivc iL ['8 qlr righr to ihv6r inrlsnd rr q rcrGa! E. grccu brlt qf
PIAN ro P.gG 5
Not uncomfoilable
To thc cdlaon
I rm vrillng in rcspoosc to yonr
(July f 2) cdiGisl rcgpiding cily
employccs ard ornmissioncss fecl-
ing 'apprclrcrtsivc' q 'uncomfm-
sblc"_sbout srEtiog lhcir opinioos or
dEltrfiIs.' Pcrsonatty spc€king, as a Part
ard Rccrcsdm Commlssiooer, I
would likc ro sralc thst I tl8yc ncycr
fclt unmrfo.trblc a afraid lo rpc.t
my opinioq 6 of cmursSinS opco
discussion of any issua Tbat is Dy
Job as 8 ommissioncr.
ThE clccriql of 1988 provcd thrt
rtE dtizcn3 v.nlcd loG @trgc.
Eldc lo tE wly Curahls[ w0
bclnt run. Ttry va.d fa Foplo
Thc Chanhassc
lnformatlon
Publlcdloo date: ThrEdar
FkA bsuo: G. 14, 1987'
CLculdldl: Approc a.000
ll.lllng Addr.x:
Chan ras€n VU{oI
P.O. Bo( s
Clunlraoo MN 551117
Ollb. Addr...:5z7W.7ah$rsd
Char*Bson, MN 551117
Phone:93+5m
Publbh.d by:
S.W. Suu]ban Publb}*|o
3eI Mar8.fiafi Road
Shal(opee, MN 55079
Staff
Publbtrr: Mart Wober
Ednor: D8\rld Pedols€n
Repon€.: Elzabdl whlte
Smds edito.: Joln McRe.
lasazesot
Sborts writoc todd Scfirul
Advodbh: Cmnb Moyer
Class hd Ad3: Jolene Bu(d a4$3irxD
Clrcumlon: Riby Mohet
(d.4$333:r)
Subscriptionr
Vofurtary atb3crlptlom:
$15 r,uil n dlqi.lbn .
Yoerlv a$acrlotlons:
81'8hCfl{*Couilll
325 all olhor aroa
(or ie2s por mofilh)
who campsignGd fc muntsbility,
comcpo scrlsc End a willinSncss to
lislcn to thc rcsidenls. Nov ttl8t wc
arE gdring ttrcsc chsngcs yotr msfc it
sqlnd likc pcoplc 8rc gctlin8 rErv-
ous. I wondcr why? If a pcrson i8
doing his Fb, bc it a ommissiqrcr or
suff mcmbcr, thcy havc no rcalxx! lo
bc rErvou& Pcoplc who arcn'l doing
&cir jobs, lDvsvcr, slDub fccl ocw-
ous ard thcir job shorld bc 'urdcr
squtiny", just litr roy ut-gorrcrE-
@Da8l pcirbo.
I don't kDow Yho you'r,c bccn
dkiag to, Davr, bua En Um! ry
cbting wltb s fcy EG sqlrcrQ
bcfct fcoing your oplnim.
J.r L.s!. Ct !tr*rPr*...! f,Et.fh.llrnlrr dorer
Medla'g powor
To llc cdltorr
Alunrgh I'm ma a ltudy Pcrpdct
fao, I rcally rpprcciatc Tmr lL
Lapic'r (July 12) oluua o ttc
mcdir's potrcr lo mmlpulsrc publlc
opioid r88lnsl anyooc.
Paul T\vhctcll, thc modcmdEy
fouodcr of Ectantsr, csllcd prof-
grrxlr 'oc of tbc ml vblGd
rourgco of oaotlnd
llotv onco do wo 8lort olrct .o-
oahcr F]m't roublB withll trEl.
lzinS lhd mpocsio mighl bo !m
bctrlicisl lo rbac Urt frll fim
rodcty'r grE?
IArdRoat8rlrchrL
tu&a rs ve o .r.+src0rl-r-1 lY' I
Plan cootloucd too prgc 1 _
(
'l-Lr. U:,
P
tfit
Pt.t
Thc urp rhorrs ric .rG. tL.t rhG rttlGr r.t! mld bG kll oof oa th
MUSA.
oatuE ccrvtry, as oppccd to itscvcto@cnt pdeDual. wc carl
FtsrEc ttut cvcry ciry ofiicial cv-
cry ury 9E guarantcc this rigbt is
rccognizcd d iffipo.atrd in fceal
Pl8[..Scodly, rbc pcririOcrs bclicvc
tDat Gr of this &€a n m't bc !row-
hg rh r c th ciry prcdids iG2O
ycars Encc, 8trd tbat scial. cco-
.mmic, aDd covirmcoul inicrcsts
would b bcsr scnrcd drriDq rhh timclf vr wcrr dcsildstcd fa'irinimuo
dcvclqmcnt. Tbc city nay navc
ovcfEstioa&d dcatloomcot mtcn-
rial fa rhc ura ffi$' of tbc'scwer
trutrk. Mrny of tbc loB arc impc.
3ibh c utrdcsirablc to devclo bc-.-'..c of strcp tcrrain and wctlirods,
Lalc IIc! Highlaods has alrcdy
bcca rccogDizcd by ciry plerning *! god c8di@c fa largc-lr zcrilng
bc8usc lhc 2-12 asc-Dlattinr w*doc Fia ro tbc 198? agrdcor
vilb tic Mctro Council !o co to lGrt! minirnuos. I Spitc Of-ortdated
ntap. city planoing gavc mc to r,6t
with. I slrivcd to acqrmmodeE eve-
rymc's mrDs aDd avoid misintcr-
Fctatin AryoB iasidc rhic alpg
?aDring to dcwlop cDuld l@k at
altrrDady6 to stiJl oualifv frr dcvct-
@col Coosidcr lribbviic fa rcin-
stdctDcDt of 2-1.12 ffi! iooflng, *trlcU
crrcf,y pcuti@r was i! favq of. It,s
pcsiblc 1o 8ct rhis s@ tban wair-
ing lo bc iDcludcd iD UE MUSA if rE
docisioo is lo stlv ilut.
Tbird, nrcr 'of tnc rdrimcrs
dtcady iovctcd bcavilv G ocw sco
tic syitcos and wclli fmnoviric
tcori:togies ""d d;i"tgi';iG:
oatc draiDfield sit6 could kclo tbcm
loing for a log riurc, and baving rbcn8 to ulrc tbc allcrnatcs is to bGqlrsidc rbc MUSA, I havs ro bcltuE! fcfl occ, scptic sysrcms spr€ad outwtr e largc arca pca m daDIGr
Ecauc of sriqcu drrlnrirx ad"c
lpphc4 aDd ]bat md outricDts arr
uscd up by vcgrratim, oa lcacbcd
dova iD thc clay soil. tbcy also rr-
cyclc sstcr bact to rt.tarlc tb
squifcr, unlitc municiel sistcos
which haul sway miltiois of lfrllG. @y,
Fbfib, ffic tnffic frm mqc
BATi
-r-
Ll|Sa' llirib-r'l-ll\-.x,--l
.la.frrrffirr.F0&i...Hrr
...r4 rrd! Il |..|Ila.d.rrrLaraF
0U C hr h{ltrb rr
Illo.ra Ptrl C.dBradlExtermln
861-4
Ardity Sfvic. !fh.
Etr
HUGE CON
I/ICH
AUC'
LOCAiED a Ill-ES tt
PRAGUE, IX OX 8TA']
S.turdrr.luolrd It l't $ttEt.l-e-trd-rrI
nmA-OCElulr.-IIE3*IIDT,IltIOEI-.Lbrrl. Et+.( Irs E$Eat-.llormrlrh .lc
DONT I'ISS THIS,
Ccragft rr-c.n-t
Frldr- aErr ra,
To t.[a nf a6r-ta!a c, 'lLlrmL5!.*ht.
O.C. i( Lod..adr
Tlll l dl. d rb l,!t,
lFw r(ce<stIrqttc aS a hiOdraOA tOorr wcll-bcing. Just bccausc re
h@cdrD€rs havc a hrgc lcr c high
Esrkct Ysluc dca't Dcan yc bawtk ilcmc to facc t igi additieal
assEsurots cirbcr, Wc pay tbc higb
larcq too, ad dcscrvc guara!&6
vitb orrr rights. fugtt mcr, tbc bcst
aDd poosibly mly guaraaEc Eay bc
io sray our of u€ MUSA bcdusG
mcc wc'rc iosidc, thclc Eally atl Do
guaraDtecs.
Iruginc thb Ubly scllE[ wtict
bappcns 8ll tbc tiffi. If iDsidc abc
MUSA Uqmdary, lbc ciry cm justify
lcvYing rytssrttn6 fq' 1b 1,k, Ano
scycr truEt at 14,60 pcr rc (whict
vc dm't vant) aDd tlc r.alcr. Scycf
latcrals go ia latrr, aoal yor culld E
facEd to bot up if -yqr'rc ctcB
cEoug4 svcn tborrgb yolr scptic
ly$e-E 8Dd wcll wak. r -ua LrJcy
R@d $,ould gct dug up ad rcprrdt
agau, tDc ^ost passcd 6 tbrutgb tba
SeWCf ,.scsrrrcDl ASSGSSDCOIS AEd
additiqEl bk-up fccs will bc asEG
nmical bccausc of rbc larrc lG" Otr
top of tbat, asscssrs oqlld-bcc rurr
Earkct Yaluc m falscly-pcrccivcd
dsvclopmcEt poarotial, drivin8 upyor Propcny tar. ciry officialsa
rcspooscs arc cmfiictin* Oac sa!,s
tbar '(Bcin8 io rbc MUS-A) docs rir
man deYclopEcnt b goiDg !o bstr
pcq" lrct polrcy 8od etu8l bchavic
<lrivcs it io affib dirrqim".Tb
city's obj€ctiE is !o providc cmrSb(kcloFbL lFYl lE]cugb tE yc8Zm.-so,-*togrtptcn;i;a
aoyxay.
Is it prog€ss whco hirtcf rsres4l r.s.rsth.E6 fq€f fuslraEd Esi-
dcols !o soll qrt to 8 dcrrcl@r wbcu
tbcy Fcfcr ro s[8y? Evra t[bugb tEI8s say! y(I.I caE'l be rscr<s.d for
lmcthing if n'sffi hFrb€ocfir,
tGaJ govcmmcEE gA 8r,ay *iO it
aayvay. Polirics ad city 'ollicials
ctaDgc litc tDc wca$cr.- Hos c8tr
ab city guamilcc to ocasc allrmDt-
ing lo &ivc umanantcd &wkjo-
Ecot a lcvy spccial rrscss".cgB 151sr
arc mt fm qrr bcocfit?
b ir progrrss ntcn sbort-sirhrrdidrlgcnc hasacas &sru(tio ffqrlal!!, wcttspds, forcsrs, prairic tao4
wildlifc, md dkrupB tbc- cooolnity
and our pcacc of'miod? Wc cnjoy
bciDg 8 pan of rbc oarunf crvirin-
mcot in Cbanbassco, wort bafif b
prcscruc il ard misc ous childrca !o
apFcciatr ir. SrayinS orrsidc o?rbc
MUSA is tE b6r krF guaraorcciog
thel.
I bclicvc that b a ctare tbc cityod tlc Mctro Couocil cqrtd rerith pctitim, sti[ fcaving plcory io
devclA Erh of Hwv. 5. Ttc pai-
dmc{s wcrc vully cirouobcait in
rhc Gting JuDc 6 giviog tk plso-
ning mEissio rDc illusio ih!r.6 D(I! suppql arEiB tDc rti-tio. I urgE tbt aofperitim'afdk wrilc ro city plabniag o krcp
tErG mcEros alivcr or rctmmit
r bctrq slEraatlvc. As rcvisic sr!
bcing Eadc lo0r plan so6, my& -
tbG qucisl rinr tO d"
h rh. n6r-. craaitn!
a.y. Solylo n -ql.t,...1 q'r.lt .qu9ir.i. i5 'EA!..lu.t io l,r a ic-
- (lvrleE€ will pcc a daogcr to
watkcrs aDd cyclisrs 6 latc LucyRc4 snich ddcsi8narcd as ao o6'-
cial ft uail aDd bas nd sidcwalk
- m, a prop(Bcd io tbc Cmprcbco-
3ivc Plao-
But ltc rrasm &at srls tE mdG6irs is wantiu cootnol of qlt
- firture. Balancing rft rignt of Ucxb-x.et bddcle a8ins rE righof a& aroJod tbcm 10 DrGscrwtbir lsrtc tols wltbolt sutiidizinq
- rf *vclqcn iso't casy. Wc rhti
rsDt ltinEr lo dt".gc in rhi. &ta
t6lc[ tbao erprctc4 carr3iDg ocod-
Icss tlisruukn Mav of us rc vqrin
- frnilicq'aod scc rtic rcat 15fat d
s
f,
V
ti trtrlr: (!la rrA.r ttrr: tttA ftr
riJclraro.r: Gra !jI-!: l*'ttz' . !.a * t
TlltAAtqI('laar5.g{ !y ldrr r.Elda PEha.ttrt rollII
Foaarnqr hrqlnald\ cIarlE :.try!.5 ra!
Tarra: fr DarCA
ucEltsE ioq,: a. !? I!!/Elrry ?tl€i Tln rOO7l.h (.wr-t rotttt ,./aa ta,al,{aatar,-d,
o3mile;ts Jn Cu,npiei rel ,siVc Fial r
-l-H .lhal .ss
By Paul Krauss
Chanhassco Pho[ing Dirrctor
I havc had an opportunjty read
rhe lcngrhy lcrrer (in the July lg issuc
of thc Chonhassen Vi age;) rc4ad,-rng thc ncw draft Comorchensivc
Plan rhat is hcing prepared for thecrly ol Chanhassen. Thc lctrer on_
taincd somc inaccurate and mislead-
iog information ttEt nerds to be cor-
rcctcd ro give ciry rcsidenB informa_rion they need ro makc their own
decisions on thc Dlan.
Wirhout wishing to rcpear infor.
mation providcd by tlrc Villalet in
numerous previous a icles, lhc city
is working on a new plan for several
reasons. Matntaining a plan is a te_
qurrcmenr o[ smte law. The citv is
raprdly running our of land ;ith
availabilily of ciay watcr and scwer,
and a C-omprchcnsive plan Amcnd_
mcnt approvcd by the Mctropoliran
Councrl is lhc only means av;ilablclo expand rhc Metropolitan Urban
Service Area (or MUSA linc).'llc lasr and msr irnpon6nt rea-
son ts that lhe plan giyes the commu-
nrty an opportunity to direcr growrh
so that its values, natural coviron_
mcnt and ncighborhmds can bc Dro_lecred, and adc4uate levels of si:rv-
rces, parks, strce6, schmls, ctc., csn
bc providcd.
The planrdng commissim has been
working orl the plan for ovcr a vcarand has rccently hcld two ou'bhcinformarim met tings on it. A lormal
public h€aring will be held this fall
aftcr which ir will bc rcvicwed bv thecity council and ulrimarcly sc6t ro
thc Mcrropoliran Council f6r rcvicw
and appr0val. To darc, thcre has bceo
a tremendous amou of public inpul
on the plan and numerous chanics
have resultcd. Gtntinucd refinemEnt
of the plan is cxtr:crcd.
Thc MUSA linc impacr oecds tobc cxamincd. Thc lina iGclf doas
nohing to ctEngc I parcEl,s tax slalus,
nor dc it autqllaaically r6ull in ahc
construclion of city water and scwcr
scrvices. l! does noa force dcvclop_
filcnt to occur.
What it docs is providc for rhepotcntial of cxlendin! serviccs whcn
a propeny owner delermines lhat his
or her propcny should be dcvclopcd.rrc decNlon to devclop is solcly a
pnvare one. When a parce I is loca'tcd
outsidc lhc MusA'linc its owncr
doos nol have access to utiliries and,
rhcreforc, is restricled by ordinancrlo creallng no more than one ncwsingle family lor for cach l0 acrcsol oed.
Acording ro informalion otxainedlrom thc county tax as.scssor. lhc
location of the MUSA line duis nordircctly impao propcrry valucs. Hc
Old, howevcr, indicate that propefl).
valucs in Chanhasscn,s mdrc irrit
areas arc rising, but lhis has more lodo wilh rhe scarciry of land in rhc
Twin Ciries urban irinse.
Thc leller alludcs rd a $,t60-oer -
acrc assqssment. This is an arca as_
scssmcnl for parccls that havc thcporential of draining inro lhc ncw
La-kc Ann Inrercept6r. It docs noralleal any other propeflics in lhcciry. Thc oonstruciio; of this tinr
whictl was comptcrcd i^i r;;;i;:
Mctropoliran Wasrc Conirol iom-
mission, was approvcd by thc crry
council in lS7: ln buitdi;g rhc tioc,tnc ctly -council was a empring to
provtoc lor rcasonablc growlh to thccrly tn an area oocalcd wcst of l_akcs
Lucy and Ann) thar has bccn onsid-
c_rcd as thc next phasc of community
dev4lopmcnr sincc beforc l9gO.
This cntirc arca, exccot for a
narrow srrip along Hwy. 5.'is dcsic.
nated for low-densirv Singlc-famiiy
hoorcs by rhc drafr plan. Affecrcd
nommwners, including the writer of
the tcttcr, wcrc notifid of the Droiccl8l that timc. Asscssmcn6 arc'ocird.
ing, but havc not yct bccn levi'cd.
Thc wrircr raird rhc issue oft.affic on lake Lucy Road, saating
thar i[ is dcsignared as an..official
park rrail by. lhc plan.,' Urdoubledly,
continucd developrncnt will cause
addilional rrafllc on Lakc Lucy RGd,
as ir witl on calpin, Hwy. 5, drc. parr
ot thc Comprchcnsivc'plan,s pur_
pn;c ts to ensure that area strccts and
roads are designcd to aocommodate
lhe traffic-
_ Thc facI ls, rtE pan of Lakc Lucy
Road menlioned by rhe writcr 6
dcstgnatcd is a .,collccror slrect,, that
also happens to havc an on-slreeltrail scction. Collcctor strccts arc
dcsigncd lo carry high traffic vol_
umcs lrom a $fcty standpoinl anda ow plannc$ ro handlc lraffic wirh_out routing ir through residential
ncrBhborhqxrs.
- For cxamplc, wirhout [-Bkc Lucy
Road funqioaring as a @llector str€et
ln this aRa, u-dtrtc would lravel through
thc Phcasant Hill ncighborhood since
rhis is thc only viable alrcrnative. hshould also be notcd lhat aporox!
marcly tto pcrclnr of rhis roab was
paid by aI ciry rcsidcnrs in liSh of ils
collcctor status.
Thc wrirer raised a number of
cnvirt.nmenral issucs in his lctter.
Thcsc issucs are not new, and the
drafr.plan ourlincs a large varicty of
exNttng and propccd programs for
ocalrng with them. Chanhasscn has a
reputation as an cnvironmenaal inno_
vator. Thc city was one of thc firsl to
adopt a comprehcnsive wctland oroFtcclion ordinance, and staff is Lur-
rently working on sevcral initiatives
inl€ndcd ro pRxcq and imtrovc walcT
qualiry. The plannirrg cbmmission
and ciry council have strongly sup-
portcd lhcsc c[ror6.
Lasrly, the writer ac{xrscd staffo(
b(ing givcn "outdarcd', maps by ahe
crty planning sraff. I rescnr the accu-
sation and note that thc writer was
giveo the samc maps wc use for ciry
busiocss on a <laily basis ard lhit
rhcs.'- are updalcd 6 frrqucouy og
PO6SlOlc.
lnformation
Publication dato: Thursd,
First issue: Oct. 14. 1987
Circulatton: App.ox. 4,oq
lrelling Addrets:
Chanhass€n Villaoer
PO. Box 99
Chanhasson, MN SS3t 7
OfticG Addross:
527 W. 78th Srreer
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Phone; 934-50@
Publlshed bv:
S.W. Subu,bSn publishin(
327 Marschall Road
Shakopee, MN 55979
Staff
ktters
-
Thanks crusaderg
Tb ttc G{laof:
I would likc to cf,prcss s sinccrcrhank you to all thc'ca lins ardblEk wo(kc6 who voluritccrcd forthc Amcrican C€ncr Cnrssdc in
Chanhasscn.
Becausc of your hard work snd
dcdicatior\ ovcr S5,6ff) was collcclcd
and slmca t,m ti:,n6 ;;;;tiE
and givcn imporranr nukilional in-
lormatioo., Your vork is grca0y
spprccEtcd.
. Anyonc nccding caner informa.
tron or assistancc, plcssc call Lvla
Quasl at 467-3282.
Ttrcrc is I grcat nc€d in Orantras-
s€n for Amcricao Caner votuntccrs
in all arcas of scrvioc. Anyonc intcr-cs.cdro calt Lirds Aboriky 8r 934-
l,lnde Zrborskv
Chrnhrssci
Publishs: Mart Wob€r
Editor: Davk P€ds,sen
Rsponor: Elizaboth Whire
Spons oditor: Jotrn McRar
(at 4.8-26501
Spoits wr er: todd Schrur
Advenising: Connie Movo't
Classili€d Ads: Johne 6ur
(ar 445-osrsl
Circulation: Rr;bv Mohlin
(ar 44r3it33) -
Subscriptions
Voluntary subscriptions:
$15 within ciaculabn er
Y€arly subsc,iptbns:
$18 ln Carver Countv
$25 all oth€r areas '
(or $2.25 p€. month)
, \ rl?p!;r t
We bclievc lhat city staff is herclo provid€ rhc besl pdsiblc scrvicc
1o IIE coflmunity, Fn of which is to
scrve as an information resource. My
staff aod I have and will cootinuc t6have an open door polica oD thc
Comprehcnsivc Plan,irs w6ll as anvottpr issuc affccrinc oommuniti,
devcloFnenl. Wc tuie sookcn 16
large numbcrs of foole on thc olan.
maited no(iccs of ni,r.iiiri-riliij
ings to pcrsons cxprcssing interesl,
and wo(ked with community news_
papcn lo providc as muci iiforma-
rroo as possiblc. Wc invirc you to callor visit with us if wc can 6e of serv-
icc.
2
3
Amendments to UUSA Boundary Adoption 9/90
ruture use for Areasoutside the uUsA Boundary
1995 Study Areas - t{ork effortto begin after adoption of new
Comp Plan
Staff directed to developscenarios - 1ow priority
Scheduled Di scus s i onl Sta f fdirected to draft a potential
new zoning district ordinance -late falL, 1990
Inactive
Inactive
Schedule futurefa1I, 1990
agenda Iate
Staff processing a positionpaper to revielr wetLandordinance and enforceroent
Budgeted money for update 2year timeframe or storm waterutility fund
Novenber 1, 1990
January, 1991
Zoning Code Aroendments
1. Blending Ordinance
2. Rezoning BF Dist, to A2
Sign Ordinance
(Iow priority)3
4
5
Tree Ordinance - ltlapping ofsignif icant vegetative
areas
Rezoning 2L Acre Lots to RR
Di strict
Other Items
Conputerize land use files,pernits, conditions andexpiration dates on aparcel by parcel basis
Reappraisal on wetlandissues, ordinance and
napping in conjunctionuith storn water managenent
L
2
3
4
Definition of structures
shoreland ordinance
Flood Zone Ordinanee5.Novenber, 1990
REVISED JULY 27, L99O
ONGOING ISSUES STATUS
Comprehens ive PIan Issues
1. Conprehensive PIan Update Adoption 9/90
Ongoing - CUPrs conpleted
6. Grading/MineralExtraction ordinanceadopted
7. Revien legislation and
ordinance pertaining to
group homes
Iate fall, 1990
8. Variance ordinance and
procedures
Adopted by city council
9. ordinance revision dealingwith lots accessed byprivate driveways
Approved by CC on 3/26/90
10. ordinance revision dealingwith requirement to post
signs of notice for
developnent
Adopted - signs to be acquired
9t f,{wFsf MEfrcTBAHStf
7600 Executive Drive
Eden Prairie, MN 55344
(619)934.1928
May 17, 1990
Don Ashworlh
Cily of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Dear Mr. Ashworth:
As you are aware, lhe Southwest Metro Transit Commission is actively involved in the
preparation o, inlerim and long-term plans tor park and ride lols for its express-route
service lo downtown Minneapolis. The Commission has hired LSA Design, lnc. and
Hoisington Group lnc. to help formulate lhese ptans.
The objeclives of the study are:
1 . To plan inlerim and long.lerm park and ride lot sites that will accommodale an
ever-changing transit delivery system.
2. To improve service delivery and provide plans in the event that interim lots are lost.
3. To lormulate a strategy for implementing these plans that emphasizes the acquisition
of pafi and ride lot sites.
4. To coordinate plans with the Minnesota Department of Transportation, Regional
Transit Board, Metropolitan Transil commission, and regional 'rail authorities to
increase the probability that southwesl Metro's proposals will iuppon and bo supportedby long-range metropolitan-wide lransit solutions.
To date, lhe Commission has (1) examined the responsibilities ol each agency
responsible lor the delivery of lransit services within the metropolitan region, (Z)
studied the p;obable evolution of lransit services over the next 20 years, (3) Lompiledan inventory of prospective park and ride lot siles, (4) ostablislied criteiia foi the
selection of sites, and (5) ranked siles based in larg€ part on land availability and
atfordability. we will wish to review lhis background information with you in the near
future to assure ourselves lhat the siles ws recommend will be compitible with each
cily's comprehensive plan.
ln addition to the selection of park and ride lot sites, lhe study wi[ produce a park and
ride.lot plan, a statement of policies and strategies, and prograhs foi the acquisition and
funding of selected siles. lt is lntended lhat elements of the study be incoriorated inro
each. city's comprehensive plan as a means to satisty the Metropolitah council'srequiremenl that municipal plans address public lransit. On behalf ol our three
constituent communities, southwest Metro will provide the intormalion ne€ded lo fulrill
system statemenl ransit requirements.
The study will recommend financing ,or park and ride lots, the use ot official mapping
within highway rights-otway to protect siles, the incorporalion ot park and ride lots,
and their conslruclion within highway rights-of-way by the Minnesota Department of
Transporlation. The study may also include Light Rail Transit roule criteria and the use
of exaclions and incentives lo developers lo provide or accommodale transit services and
tacilities.
For the time being, I hope that this will be sutficient lo inform the respective Planning
Commissions and City Councils of the projecl status and the action we will likely requesl
trom each city at the end of lhe study. lf you have any questions or @mments, please teel
,ree to give either Fred Hoisinglon (835-9960) or me (934-7928) a call. Your inpul
will be mosl welcome.
Sincerely,
Beverley Miller
Adm in istrato r
cc: Paul Krauss
Jo Ann Olson
Sharmin Al-Jaff
CITY OF
EH[NH[ESEN
690 COULTER ORIVE . PO. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
on lIay 24, !99O, f sent you a letter indicating that the Cityrs newExcavation, Mining, filling and crading Ordinance nas officiallypublished and thus in effect. As you are aware, the ordinanceprovides a 5 nonth period during which existing operations, such as
Moon Valley, nust apply for and receive a pernit. I sent you acopy of the final ordinance for your review. you uere infornedthat we anticipated a mininum 2 to 3 Donth tiBe period to berequired to conplete the review process and to obtain a per:rit. Ireguested that you therefore initiate uork tolrards obtaining apernit as soon as possible so that it nay be handled in a tinLlynanner.
JuIy 19,990 CERTIFIED
ltr. }[ichael Deryer, Attorney
Itlackal I , Crouse and Uoore
1600 TcF Tower
121 South 8th StreetUinneapolis, MN 55402
Dear !1r. Dw)rer:
Please feel free to contact re if you need assiatance.
si Y,
Kr auss,ATCP
cc: City Council
6Planning Conmission
cary Warren, City Engineer
Roger Knutson, City Attorney
we are now nearing the end of JuIy and f have not yet beencontacted by you pertaining to the satisfaction of ordinancerequirenents. I an again, reconuending that you initiate work onyour subnittal package inmediately and .vant to express staffrswillingness to work rrith you in the process. I aD enclosinganother copy of our interin use pernit application forn for your
use.
Director of Planning
Enclosures
CITY OF
EH[NH[EEE[I
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (512) 937-5739
JuIy 19, 1990 CERTIFIED
Mr. Ton Zwiers
G&TTruckingCoropany
11111 Deuce RoadEIko, MN 55020
Dear Mr. Zwiers:
Please feel free to contact Ee if you need asslstance.
si ely
Krauss, AICPDirector of Planning
Enclosures
On l{ay 24, 7990, f sent you a letter indicating that the Cityrs newExcavation, l.tining, FiUinq and Grading Ordinance uas officiallypublished and thus in effect. As you are aware, the ordinanceprovides a 6 month period during which existing operatlons, such as
Uoon Valley, nust apply for and receive a pernit. I sent you acopy of the final ordinance for your review. you sere infbrmedthat we anticipated a ninimum 2 to 3 nonth time period to berequired to coEplete the revieu process and to obtain a perDlt. Irequested that you therefore lnitiate sork towards obtaining apernit as soon as possible so that it nay be handled in a tinllymanner.
We are nou nearing the end of July and I have not yet beencontacted by you pertaining to the satisfaction of ordinancerequirenents. I an again, reconnending that you initiate vork onyour- subrnittal package innediately and uant to express Etaffrsuillingness to work .vith. you in the process. I an enclosinganother copy of our interim use pernit application fom for youruse.
cc: City Council
[ftanning Conrnission
Gary warren, city Engineer
Roger Xnutson, City Attorney
CITY OF
CH[NH[EEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (512) 937-5739
July 23, 1990
Ur. Steve Kern
6540 Devonshire Drive
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Dear Mr. Kern:
On -June 5, 1990, the City sent you a letter stating that thewetland located i1 vogr back yard hls been partially firieal. Aftersurveying the rretland boundary, it appearld that in arei 15 feetdeep had been fil.red berow the ordiniry hlgh vater uark. rrri= rsfoot area nust be reuoved. since rec6ivirig the Letter, vou t.r.agreed to remove the area of fill be1ow the ordinary iriitr waternark and a1low it to return to its Datural state. as i uetiana.
r discussed this issie rrith our pranning Director and confirtedthat if the wetrand is returned to its na{,ural state the ciiy uirlno longer require you to proceed nlth the wetland alteiationpermit. we w111., holrever, wish to record against your lioplrty adocunent c-onfirrning the wetland is protected by the city ina cannotbe altered without receivlng . a wetland alteiation p3mii. Thedocurent wirr record an elevation defining the edge of the rretrand.
I would like to vislt the site yith our Senior EnglneeringTechnician and yourseJ.f to Etake out the exact area of fiu uhicfrmust be removed. please call ne to set up a tine to vlsit yoursite.
Sincerely,
--Yt>.-AW:
Jo Ann OlEenSenior Planner
cc: Dave Henpel, sr. Engineering Technlcl,anPaul Xrau6s, Plannlng DlrectorCity Council ,Planning Conntission