05-15-91 Agenda and Packet** 1
'* 2
File
CALL TO ORDER
PUBLTC HEARINGS
Conditional Use Pernit for the construction of a storage shedto be located within the 75 foot shoreland setback forproperty zoned RSF and located at 102 Sandy Hook Road, Peter
MoscateIIi.
OLD BUSINESS
NEW BUSINESS
APPROVAL OF I,TINUTES
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE
ONGOING ITEMS
AD},IINI STRATTVE APPROVAI,S
OPEN DISCUSSION
5. Comprehensive Plan Update.
ADJOURNI,IENT
3
4
** PLEASE VISIT THE SITE **
AGENDA
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COWISSIOI\
WEDNESDAY, UAY 15, L99t, 7t30 P.U.
CHANHASSEN CITY IIALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE
Interin use Perroit for the expansion of the driving range at
Swings Golf Range, on property zoned A-2 and located at the
northwest corner of Hwy. 5 and calpin Boulevard, John Pryzmus.
Zoning Ordinance Anendment to amend the City Code to create abluff line preservation section.
Zoning ordinance Amendment to anend Article VIfI of the Citycode concerning Planned Unlt Developnent reguLations forresidential districts.
CITY OF
EHINH,lSSEN
PC DATE:
CC DATE:
Uay 15, 1991
June 10, 1991
91-3 CUP
Olsen/v
E #:
By:
cAs
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C)
=(L
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tdFa
Conditional Use Pernit for a Water Oriented AccessoryStructure Located within the 75 Foot Shoreland Setback
Lot 1, Block 1, ColoniaL Grove at Lotus Lake
PROPOSAL:
LOCATION:
APPLTCANT:Peter Moscatelli
102 Sandy Hook Road
Chanhassen, I{N 55317
PRESENT ZONING3
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ADJACENT ZONTNG AND
I,AND USE:
RSF, Residential single Farnily
N - totus Lake
S - RSF, single fanily
E - RSF, single fauily
w - RSF, single fanily
WATER AND SEWER:Available to site.
The site has an existing single farnilyresidence and a sloped area toward the- centerof the lot.
2OOO I,AND USE PIAN:
STAFF REPORT
PHYSICAL CHARACTER. :
Low Density Residential
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500
6600 J
L OTUS
67
6900
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The Shoreland Ordinance pernits a uater oriented accessorystructure to be located within the shoreland setback with aconditional use pernit. The applicant is proposing to construct a120 square foot storage building 50 feet from the ordinary highwater mark of Lotus Lake and 10 feet fron the westerly side lot1ine. The accessory structure is located at the base of a slope inthe rear yard. The applicant cannot neet the 75 foot shorelandsetback unless the slope is altered and sone vegetation renoved.The accessory structure is proposed to be constructed of cedarshakes and cedar siding and painted the sane color as the hone.There is wetland fringe vegetation between the proposed. accessorystructure and Lotus Lake which will serve to screen the proposedaccessory structure. The shed tiII be used for storage of boatequipment and lawn equipnent. The building wilt be landscaped intothe hillside so that it will not linit the view of the lake fromthe applicant's hone or the neighbors. The natural wetland areabetween the accessory structure and Lotus Lake will not bedisturbed and landscaped shrubs between the accessory structure andthe lake will also help screen the view of the accessory structurefrom the lake.
Moscatelli CUP
May l-5 , L9 91
Page 2
PROPOSAL,/ SUMMARY
The new Shoreland Ordinance, which has not yet been adopted by thecity, a1lows each lot to have one watLr oriented accessorystructure within the shoreland setback if the structure does notexceed 10 feet in height and exceed an area greater than 250 squarefeet. The setback of the structure must be at least lO feet fronthe ordinary high water nark and must be treated to reducevisibility as viewed fron the public rraters and adjacent shorelandsby vegetation, topography, color, etc. The facility nust not bedesigned or used for human habitation and must not contain watersupply or sewage treatment facilities. Since the new Shoreland
Ordinance has not been adopted by the city, the applicant uruststiIl go under the o1d regulations and receive a conditionaL usepermit. The proposal by the applicant does neet the new criteriafor a water oriented accessory structure in terns of the requiredsetback, height and design of the structure. Therefore, staff is
recommendi-ng approval of the conditional use perrnit.
Moscatelli cUP
Uay 15, 199L
Page 3
RECOMMENDATION
staff reconmends the
not ion :
Planning Cornmission adopt the following
ItThe Planning Connission reconDends approval ofPerrnit #91-3 as shorrn on plans dated llay 8,following conditions:
Conditional
1991,, with
Use
the
1
2
The structure must be nade of cedar siding and cedar shakes
and painted a sinilar color as the principal structure.
The structure may not be used for hunan habitation and may notcontain water supply or selrage treatnent facilities.
3. The structure may not exceed a height of 10 feet.
The applicant nust naintain vegetation betlreenoriented accessory structure, Lotus Lake andproperties . It
the water
neighboring
ATTACHMENTS
Application.
Site plan.
L
2
ClW OF CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317'
(612) 937.1900
APPLICANT
ADDBESS
U
c €OWNER Sr,a"^"q --
)!ADDHESS:- 9r,.,...^
{.rr.
TELEPHONE (Day time)3 )- .l:t TELEPHONE:<4-4-o-=s(
l"r,
1. _ Comprehensive Plan Amendment 1 1. _ SuMivision
2 X Conditional Use Permir 12._ Vacalion ol Bow/Easements
3. _ Grading/Excavation Permit 13._ Variance
4. _ lnlerim Use Permit 14. _ Wetlard Alteration Permit
5. Nolilication Slons 15.- Zoning Appeal
6. _ Planned Unit Development 16._ Zoning Ordinance Amerdment
7. _ Rezoning 17. _ Filing Fees/Atromey Cost
8. _ Sign Permits 18. _ Consultant Fses
9. _ Sign Plan Beview
10._ Sile Plan Review TOTAL FEE $
A list ol sll properly owners within 500 teet ol the boundarles ol the property mu3t
included with the !pplicetion.
Twenly-six lull 3ize &Elgg coples of the p[an3 mu3t be lubmined.
Aya'X 11' Reduced copy of tnnsparency tor elch phn 3heet.
* NOTE - when multiple apdications are processed, the approprhte fee shall be charged for each application
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW APPLICATION
\?
PROJECT NAME
LOCATION iJ-lC : (,1^/
V
rk4l- f,j.''
1 ErL t GV".i9 (:rr-- t<-<'il \s
PRESENT ZONING
,,f-a / ].,r t4N /t ,lREASON FOR THIS REOUEST
t
C.a
This applicalion must be compleled in full and be typewritten or clearly printed and must be accompanied by all information
and plans required by applicable City Ordinance provisions. Before liling this application, you should confer with the
Planning Department to determine the specific ordinance and procedural requirements applicable to your apptication.
This is to certify that I am making application for the described action by the City and that I am responsible for complying
with all City requirements with regard to this requesl. This apdication should be processed in my name and t am ttre pirty
whom the City should contact regarding any maner pertaining to this application. I have attiched a copy ot proot ol -
ownership (either copy of Owner's Duplicate Certificate of Title, Abstract of Title or purchase agreement), or I am the
authorized person to make this application and the fee owner has also signed this application.
I wlll keep myself inlormed of the deadlines for submission of rnaterial and the progress oI this application. I lurther
undersland that additional fees may be charged for consulting tees, feasibility studies, etc. with an esiimate prior to any
authorization to proceed with the study. The documents and inlormation I have submitted are true and correct lo the bejt
of my knowledge.
I also understand that after the approval or granting oI the permit, such permits shall be invalid unless they are_Iggercled-__
against the title t9 the property for which the approval/permit is granted whhin i20 days with the Carver County RE;rdA; =
Otfice and rhe oiiginat document returned to dity Hai'necords.-
-:-i:i^ (1&a a{
Signalure of Applicant Date
1-
Signature of Fee Owner
Application Received on
Date
Receipt No. _Fee Paid
This application will be considered by the planning commisslon/Board ol Ad,iustments and Appeals on
LEGAL DESCRIPTION
REOUESTED ZONING
PRESENT LAND USE DESIGNATION
REOUESTED LAND USE OESIGNATION
I 4t
DEVELOPMENT FEE SCHEDULE
1.Comprehensive Plan Amendment
a. $500
b. $'100 Minor MUSA line for failing on-site sewers
2. Conditional Use Permit
a. RSF uses
b. All others
$7s
$400
3. Grading Permits
a. Under 50 cubic yards g0
b. 50-1000 cubic yards $50
c. Over 1000 cubic yards - processed
as IUP-use UBC
4. lnterim Use Permit
$7s
$400
5.Nolilicatlon Signs
$50 rental
$100 damage deposh
Planned Unit Developmeri
a. Concept Plan $750 + $96/6gre for comblned application
includes a., b. & c.
b. Preliminary Danelopment
Plan
c. Final Development Plan
d. Amendment
Minor Amendment - $100
Maior Amendment - Same As PUO
Rezonlng - $500
Sign Permil
a. Temporary - $35
b. Permanent - 350
Sign Plan Review $150
(it separate trom site dan)
RS
AIIb.
usesF
Others
6.
7.
8.
9.
't0.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
She Plan Review
a. $2i,0 + $10 per rmo sq.tt. ol building
area for commercial and industrhl districts + $5 per dwelling unit in residential districts
b. Administrative Site Plan $100
Subdivision Ordinance
a. Creale less than 3lots $150
b. create o/er 3lots - $400 + $15/ot
c. Final Plat - lnduded in one time fee
d. Metes and Bounds Oivision $150 + $50/ol o\rer 3 lots
e. Consolidate lots - $100
Vacalion o, RovEasemenls $100
Va.iance - $75
' Wetland Alteration Permit .
a. Single Family ResHence - $75
b. All other uses - $200
Zoning Appeal - $0
Zoning Odinance Amerdme - $0
Filing Fe$/Attomey Co3tg
a. Recording Documents $10 + County Fees
b. Recording Phts & Related Documents
1) 1€ lots $lm + County Fee
2) +10 lots $125 + County Fee
3) 11{0 lots $AD + Ccrunty Fee
4) 3l + lots lB50 + County Fee
Attorney's time to ensure Cost billd back to applicant
proper drafting & documentation
18. Consultant Fees
Consultants required by the
City to review development
proposals including but not
limited to tratfic and water
management issues
Cost based upon prior written
proposal and agreement. Fees
daced ln escrow.
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CITY OF
EHINH[SSEN
STAFF REPORT
PC DATE:
CC DATE:
CASE #:
By:
Uay L5, L991
June 10, 1991
91-1 rUP
Olsen/v
Fz
C)
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lrJFa
Ahend Conditions of Conditional Use pernit and an InterinUse Perroit .for Expansion to Swings Golf Sj.te DrivingRange and Uiniature Gol,f Course
PROPOSAL:
LOCATTON:5 and Galpin BoulevardNorthrrest Corner of Hhry.
7750 calpin Boulevard
John Pryznus
542 Santa vera Drive
chanhassen, lttN 55317
PHYSICAL CHARACTER. :
2OOO I,AND USE PI,AN:
contains a Class A wetland in thecorner and has been improved tominiature golf course and driving
A2, Agricultural Estates
18.1 acres
i contractors yardt sinqle farnily residence; single faroily residencei vacant
There are no municipal services available tothe site.
N-s-E-w-
A2
A2
A2
A2
The site
northwestcontain a
range.
Currently - Agriculture
P sed - 1995 S ud Area
APPLICANT:
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ADJACENT ZONING AND
LAND USE:
WATER AND SEWER:
W RR
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Swings colf Expansion IUPlIay 15, 1991
Page 2
PROPOSAL./SUU}{ARY
The applicant, John Pryznus, Is requesting aDendnents to conditionsof his conditional use pernit for rswings Driving Range andMiniature colf Course[ and perroission to expand the facility. The
anendments to the conditions will be part of an anendment to theconditional use pernit. The expansion to the site wiII beprocessed as an interin use perDit in the A2, AgriculturatDistrict. The applicant is requesting anendnents to the-conditionsof the conditional use pernit to pernit longer hours and lightingof the facility. The applicant is requesting an interin use pernitto permit exparsion to the site ln the for:u of tees, sandtrap,parking, building, batting cages, video ganes and a sign.
The city has - a long history wlth this site. SoDe of the pastexperiences include revocation of the conditional use pernit
(1987) , denial to reinstate the conditional use pernit (1982),approval of a new conditional use pernit (1992), and review ofconditions of the conditional use perait showing conditions notbeing net and l1IegaI expansion of the site (1988)-. In the fa11 of1990, the applicant started new activities on his site. Staffplaced a stop work order and processed a grading pemit. As partof the grading pernit, the applicant vis required to reciiveamendments to conditions of approval and pernission to expand.After several contacts by staff and the initiation of lega1 aclion,the applicant subnitted an application for anending the existingconditions and for expansion of the site.
Underlying the proposed aEend[ents and expansion are two facts.First, everything has been i11e9al1y perforned prior to receivingapproval from the city, and secondly, the slte is uslng a holdingtank which is in violation of City Code and cannot supportexpansion of the site. The foLlowing report goes into detail-;itheach subject. In sunmary, staff is reconmending denial of anyexpansion to the site, but is reconmending approval to the sign andvideo ganes. Staff is establishing conditlons should the plinning
Connission and City Council recoEnend approval of the expansion. -
BACXGROUND
on Novenber 15, 1987, the City Council approved a zoning ordinance
arnendment to pernit golf driving ranges with or vithout niniaturegolf courses as a conditional use Ln the A2, Agricultural EstateDistrict (Attachnent *1). The Council also adopted standards toeval.uate conditional use appJ. icatlons. They are as follows:
a. The locatlon of the driving range is linited to being adjacentto TH 5 and TH 2L2, an access must be from a coLLector orarterial which leads to TH 5 or TH 212.
Swings colf Expansion IUP
t{ay 15, 1991
Page 3
b. The hours of operation sha11 be fron sunrise to sunset.
c. Provision of adequate parking areas and subnission of alandscaping plan in conforDance with the Zoning ordinance.
d. No site sha11 be located yithin 5oo feet of a singLe fanily
residence.
e. Buildings on the site uay not exceed 8Oo square feet and shal1be painted in earth tones.
On Novenber 15, 1987, the City Council also approved theconditional use pernit for John PryzDus for a golf driving rangeand rniniature golf course subj ect to the followi.ng conditions(Attachnent #2):
1. Subnission of a revised grading plan by Decenber 1, L987,
showing the proposed linits of grading, Dethods of erosion.control rrhere necessary indicating the size and revisedlocation of the parking lot and club house 150 feet. fron thecenterline of Co. Rd. 117, and proposed bern areas around theputting green and niniature golf course area. The parking
area shal1 be paved. City staff shall review and approve saidplan prior to activity occurring on the site.
2. Subnission of a revised landscaping plan by Decenber !, !987,to add a 2 foot evergreen hedge and 6 foot trees in front ofthe proposed parking area. city staff shall review and
approve said plan prior to activity occurring on the site.
3. Fencing on the property shall not exceed 6 feet 6 inches inheight unless authorized by a conditional use pernit.
4. The two septic systen sites along Co. Rd. 117 shall beprotected fron grading activities and shall be staked andprotected in the field.
5. TI'e applicant shal.l instal.l a holding tank and shall cornplyrrith all the requirenents of ordinance No. 1o-B. a copy of icontract vith a licensed punper shal1 be provided piior toissuance of the septic permit.
6. The applicant shall conply with the requirements of theWatershed District, Fish and rildllfe Service, DNR and anyother legal jurisdiction as lt relates to utilization of thesite.
7. There shall be no alteration to the wetland area except forthe planting of grass seed and periodic disking of thJ slte.There shaLL be no filling, grading or other alteration unless
Swings Golf ExPansion IUp
llay 15 , 19 91
Page 4
approved by tbe City Councilpernit process.through the rretland alteration
8. The applicant Ehall provide proper financial security in theaDount of 110t of the cost of the irnprovenents to the siteprior to DeceDber l, 987.
9. There shall be no llght Etandards on the preuises. Hours ofoperation shaLl be fron sunrise to sunset.
10. The. applicant shall pay all fees incurred by ResourceEngineering by Decenber l, LggZ, and shal1 be resp6nsible forfuture fees if senrices by Resource Engineering arL deterninedto be necessary.
On August .22, 1988, as part of the conditional use pe:mit, anannual review of the conditions was perfomed by staff-. Severalconditions of approval had not been met. the applicant requestedCounc.il approval of the changes he had nade to this site. The CityCouncil tabLed review of the pryzhus conditlonal use peroit untiithe. Planninlf ConrrnisEjsn could revieu an anendment to the ZoningOrdinance and the conditional use perrnit to pernit the itens thatthe applicant requested (Attachment *3).
On Septenber 21, 1988, the Planning Connrission reviewed the zoningordinance amendment request to stindards for golf driving rangeslrith or without niniature gol.f courses and an anendnenC to theconditional use pernit for the Swings Golf Driving Range andMiniature Golf. The applicant was requesting approvJt forinstallation of 1i9ht standards, insttllation o? a sign,installation of video ganes and extension of hours of operation.Most of these improvements were already installed by the applicant.The proposed inprovenents required anendments to the ipprovedconditional use permLt and anendnents to the zoning ordinance. Theproposed zoning ordinance amendments were to the standards forconditional use for go).f driving ranges wlth or ulthout miniaturegolf courses to perrnit:
1. Installation of a slgn advertising the facility is perroitted,
however, i.n no case sha1l the sign exceed 32 square feet.
2. No nore than 10 vldeo games, includJ.ng plnball nachines orother nechanical, electrical or electronlc machine beinstalled. This does not lnclude vending nachines for food orsoft drinks.
The PLanning Conrurission uas then asked to review aroending theconditional use pemit to allow the folloning changes t6 tfreoriginal conditional use peruit:
Swings GoIf Expansion fUP
May 15, 1991
Page 5
1. Light standards on ttre property shaLl be linited to 75 wattlights not to exceed 3 feet in height to be located in theniniature golf course area. Lighting tlay be located on thebuilding for security and to ill.uninate the driving range teesto the west. In no case shall any lights be directed onadjacent properties or glare onto abutting road right-of-ways.
No nore than 10 video ganes, includi.ng pinball uachines orother nechanical, electrical or electronic roachine beinstalled. Vending nachines dispensing food and soft drinks
rnay be installed.
3. Hours of operation shall be fron 8:OO a.D. to 11:OO p.n.
4. Installation of 22 six foot evergreen treescalpin Boulevard.
along Tll 5 and
3.
2
2
After discussion of the itern, the planning Conroission unaninously
recorornended tabling action on the zoning ordinance anendment anathe conditional use pernit anendment until staff cane back withnore infornation (Attachnent #4). The pLanning Conrnission had thefollowing connents:
1. The Planning. Cornrnission was fairly unanimous in requiring theapplicant naintain the originally approved hours of sunriie tosunset .
The Planning connission agreed that the applicant should bepermitted some forB of signage but the sign should not beiLluninated. The Planning Connission also directed staff tocorne back uith. a proposal for an acceptable sign within theagricultural district.
Tbe Planning Commission agreed that ten should be the lirnit ofnuiber of video ganes allowed. The planning Comnisslon alsodiscussed rrhether or not video ganes should be 1icensed by thecity. The Planning Connission directed staff to cone backwith infornation on whether or not licensing should berequired.
4 The final iten of discussion rras the lighting.Comnission felt that the applicant should o;lylighting for security purposes.
The Planning
be peruitted
with the turnover in planning staff, this iten uas not furtherpursued. Since this case uas last reviewed by the planningconrnission and city council, the ordinance has bLen anended toallow gol,f driving ranges vith or without niniature golf couises asan interin use pernit in the A2 District instead of ilo"aiii"naruse peruit. The reason for this uas that golf driving ranges with
Swings colf Expansion IUP
May 15, 1991
Page 5
or without niniature golf courses uere considered uore of atenporary use uhich should have a set ternination date. Therefore,any expansion to the site nust nol, be considered as an interin usepernit and will have a terroination date established as part of thePernit.
In October, 1990, staff noticed grading activity taking pLace atthe sHings col.f site on the northrrest corner oa calpin- B-oulevardand Hwy. 5. The applicant, John pryzDus, yas creating a bern alongGalpin Boulevard, clearing out an area for potCntial futureparking/drainage area and providing a second arei of driving teesfor the drivilg range. The City required the applicant to stopwork on the site and to apply for a grading perni€.- After uorklniwith.the appl.icant, a grading pernit was issued with the followin!conditions (Attachment #5) :
1. The earth bera along Galpin Boulevard (Co. Rd. U7) shaU becontinuous two-tier, two foot high rock retalning iralls, not'to exceed an accunulative height of four feet in-lieu of thethree foot high earth bern previously required.
2. Provide the city rith a financial security in the forrn of aletter of credit or cash escrow in the anount of glrOOO toguarantee erosion control Deasures and site restoration,
3. All disturbed areas sha11 be Eeeded and disc nulched or soddedprior to Novenber 15, 1990.
4. The gradi-ng permit fee shall be calculated according to the1988 Uniforr Building Code Table No. 7O-B for graiing IOOcubi.c yards of material.
5. Erosion control. Deasures (hay bales) shall be nalntainedthroughout until vegetqtion cover has been fuUy re-established and renoval is authorized by the city fngi-neer.
5. Any future expans-i-on or gradlng activities will requireanother pemlt applicatlon and wiII also reguire an appiovedsite and/or grading plan by the planning Connission ana CityCouncil prior to conmencenent.
7. The grading actlvity that has occurred adjacent to the creeklocated on the northerly portlon of the property sttall berenoved back to a point to be deternlned Ln the fiald by cltystaff.
8. As agreed, the expansion to the parking lot and driving rangeis not pemitted wlthout receiving - an anendment fo theconditional use -pemlt to al1ow exPansion of tt-e existingfacillty. This expansion is not included ln th;
Swings Golf Expansion IUP
Uay 15 , 19 91,
Page 7
9
adninistrative grading pernit.parking 1ot nust be renoved
purposes.
A building pernit is reguired
fence proposed around the 6ite.
Therefore, the driving tee andor transforned into berning
for the installation of the
The activity occurring at the site uas an expansj.on of theconditional use pernit for the golf driving range and miniaturegolf course. As part of the grading penoit approval, the applicantwas required to subnit an application for an anendmenC -to theconditions of the conditional use pernit and for expansion of thesite.
on Novenber 28, 1990, 6taff sent John pryzEus a 1etter stating thatthe grading conpleted on the site uas acceptable if apprOvLd aspart of the amendrnent. A condition of the grading pemit was thatan application for an anendrnent to the conditional use perait nustbe s-ubnitted and approved by the city. Staff reguested theapplicant to subnit a complete application by Janua+ Z, 1991,.Attached to the letter, staff also enclosed an application form anda list _of the required infornation for a conplete application.Staff did not receive the required application by the ianuary 7,L99l , deadline. on January 11, 1991, staff subnitted anothercertified letter to ltr. Pryznus again reninding hirn of thecondition of approval of the grading pernit and tbat the deadlineof January 7th had not been met. Staff provided the applicant witha second opportunity to uake an application by Tuesday, January 22,1991. The Letter further stated that if a conplete application wasnot received by January 22nd, the city would pface tfre conditionaLuse permit on a future City Council agenda for consideration ofrevocati.on. As of March 20, j.gg]-, an application had not beensubnitted by the applicant nor had the applicant made any effort tocontact staff.
Staff then scheduled this iten on a City Council agenda asconsideration of revocation of the conditio-nal use pernit. Theproblen with revoking a-conditional use pernit is that any of theconditions regulating the use of the site are then void-and theactivity then becones a n_on-conforning use. The city must theneither pursue discontinuing the use on the site o-r have theapplicant.go through the conditionaL use pernit process again withnew conditions to bring the site into conpl iance. The freferredoption is for the city to initiate enforce;ent action agiinlt trreapplicant.. _ -The applicant lri1l be crirninally cited and,- ii founaguilty, wiLl be required to bring. the site into cbrpliarr"".Initiating !h" enforcenent action wiII start the 'piocess
innediately instead of being postponed until revoc.iior, -ot tn.conditionar use pernit has been processed. Therefore, stafi hrs
Swings GoIf E4)anslon IUPl{ay 15, 1991
Page 8
initiated the enforcement action through the City Attorneyrs Officeinstead of pursuing revocatlon of the - conditionlt use p6rait.
In }larch, 1991, the applicant subnitted an application. theenforcenent action is sti1l in place should we nted to use it ifthe applicant does not conplete the applicatlon process and neetany conditions.
The app.licant -is requesting an interin use pernit for expansion tothe Swings colf Driving Range and Miniature colf Cour:se and anarnendnent to the conditions of the conditional use pernit. colfdriving ranges with or vithout miniature golf coursej used to be aconditionar use pernit in the A2 Districl and are no!, an interinuse pernit.
rnterim use pernits aLlow a use for a brief period of tine until. aperrnanent location is obtained, or while the permanent location isunder construction, and a1lows a use that is presently acceptabrebut that w-ith. anticipated deveropnent wirl not be accepiable in thefuture. An interin use perrit is pernitted if the tolfowing isfound:
PROPOSAL
1
2.
3
4
Meets the standards of the condltional use per:mit set forth inSection 20-232 of the City Code.
ConforDs to the zoning regulations
The use is allorred as an interim use in the zoning district.
The date of event that willidentified with certainty.terainate the use can be
5. The use will not inpose additlonal coata on the public if itis. necessary for the public to take the propLrty in thefuture.
5. The user agrees to any conditlons that the City Council deensappropriate for per:uisslon of use.
The items for consideratl.on as an interl.n use permit is theexpansion to the driving r?nge, a proposed building, proposedparking .1ot expanslon, batting cages, the sign ana vihe5 ganes.The conditions of the condltional use pemit requested io Ueamended include hours of operation and 1ightlng.
Swin
!lay
Page
coLf Expansion IUP
1991
INIERII,I U8E PERI,IIT TOR EXPa!{8ION OT BEE AITE
The rnain issue with any tl4>e of expansion on the site is with theprovision of bathroon facilities. Currently, the site only has aholding tank. Two septic sites were shorm and approved with theconditional use pernit. The applicant constructed the existingclubhouse prior to receiving City Council approval for theconditional use pernit and the building rras constructed without abuilding pemit and r,rithout required bathroon facilities. The cityperDitted the installation of a holding tank instead of requiring
hook up to a septic system. ft is unclear uhy exactly this waspernitted. The City Code requires buildings to provide bathroonfacilities and outside of the UUSA line they nust be hooked up toa septic system. The existing holding tank and separate bathroonfacility is in violation of city ordj.nance. A condition of theholding tank rras for the applicant to get a punping contract and tosubnit pumping receipts to the city. These conditions have not
been met. Further accentuating this probleu is the applicant has
graded and destroyed the approved septic sites. Since a Dajorityof the site has been altered, it nay be diffj.cult to locat€ trro new
acceptable septic sites.
The applicant has a history of naking inprovenents to the sitewithout first receiving the required approval and then after thefact, reguesting approval . This puts staff, the Planning
Conmission and the City council in a difficult position. If theapplicant had first come in for approval for the expansion, there
may not have been any objection to uhat was being proposed andconditions naking the expansion acceptable could have. beenenforced. fnstead it is difficult to reconnend approvaL when, onceagain, the applicant understood the process, ignored it and expectsapproval after the fact. Puttlng past history aside, the followingis a detailed revj.ew of the interin use perrnit issues.
Expansion to the Drivino Ranoe and Berninq
gs
15,
9
The applicant expanded the driving range with tees and Eandtrap atthe northeasterly corner of the site, adjacent to Galpin Boul.evardand Bluff creek. The applicant also provided a ber along calpinBoulevard and adjacent to Ga1pin Boulevard ln the northeast cornerof the site. The activity. was illega1 in the terns of expandingbeyond what vas approved with the orlginal. conditional use- pemii.
and gradinq uithout a grading pernit. The applicant dld recLive agrading ,permit, after the fact, for the bern along calpinBoulevard. AII of the other grading activity, includlng-the bernand-tee areas_ adj acent to Galpin Boulevard, uere not part of thegrg!i19. pernit ald have not received city approv;I. Theseactivities were tied to receiving city approval ilith applicationfor expansion ef the site. sone of thJbem areas have bLLn seeded
Swings colf Expansion IUP
May 15, 1991
Page 10
and sodded. The rest of the berm areas have not been stabilizedwith seed or sod and sone areas appear to be rrashing out.
The original conditional uge perDlt had 94 parking spaces.Currently, there are approximately 82 parking Jpaces.-. ifre gaparking spaces were shown on the originlt p:.air t6 acconmodate alarge.bat_ting cagelindoor activity builaing. - This building was notpernitted so the reduced -nunber of parking spaces were pe-rnitted.The expansion of the drivlng. range ri11-nol require idaitionalparking and can be acconmodated with_ the existing p"rii"t.Although the parking can acco,modate additionar drivini t'ees, tiedependence on the holding tank wilL not permit any expanilon to the
=i!g:. Therefore, staff is recoromendi.ng againit Lppr-ving tfreadditional tees and sandtrap.
The bern areas are se_rving to enclose the proposed parkingexpansj.on, building and batting cages. The - be-r.os viif notintensify the use of the site and if lroperly stabilized ,orrta u.acceptable to staff. . A _ detailed grading ind drainage plan isrequired for these alterations to be appro,-ved.
Proposed Buildino
The plans subnitted by. the applicant show a proposed buildinglocated in the northeast cornei of the site at lhe- corner ot trretwo proposed benn areas. There sas one set of building planssubrnitted as. part of the application nhich were the plans ior theexisting byilding on the lite and staff is a=suming 1fr"t tt.applicant is. proposing to construct the exact sane Uiuilaing ascurrently exists at the site. The. proposed building is 840 aquarefeet in size vhich excee^ds .the naxinun lquare footag-e ot a uuiiaintpermitted by 40 sguare feet. rhe standalds for ari-vinc ranqes andniniature golf linit the slze of a builcring on site t5 eoo-squarefeet and of earth tone color. staff therefore cannot pernit theproposed building to be installed since the area excee&s uhat isperaitted as part of a.driving range and niniature golf course andr.rould serve to intensify use of the site. A new bullding wouldhave to neet building code and provide bathroom facirities- hookedup to a septic rystem. In addition, the exlsting structure 1ocatedon the site never received a certificate of occulancy. As referredto. in the Building officialts Deroo, the exirting Uui:.aing alao doesnot neet clty- code in that it does not provide th6 requiredbathroou faciL itLes.
As previously stated, further expansion to the slte should not bepermitted until the existing property is brought up to code andthat a proper septic systen is instarrea wittr tht adilition ofproper bathroom faciLit-ies and/or ultil the property is broughtuithin the t'[usA l ine and can be Eerviced uy cfty -s"we.'r and water.
Swings GoIf Expansion IUP
Uay 15, 1991
Page 11
Therefore,
building.staff cannot reconnend approval of the proposed
Battinq Caoes
On the plans subnitted by the applicant, there is an area shown forbatting cages. It is unclear uhether a building woutd be providedfor the batting cages of if the batting cages souLd just be locatedoutdoors. Once again, the inclusion of batting cages will increasethe use of the site which is not being serviced properly irithbathroon facilities. Therefore, Etaff uould have to rec-onmendagainst the addition of the batting cages.
Parkinq Area
The applicant is currently creatlng an additional parking area.The site has been graded and is being surfaced nith a gravel.Staff visited the site on !!ay 8, 1991, and placed a stop work orderto prevent the applicant fron continuing work on the parking 1otarea. The existing parking lot area adequately serves the existinguse. If the addition of the batting caSres, building, additionattee area and sandtrap are not approved, then the need foradditional parking area is not reguired. Should the expansion ofthe site be approved, Etaff would recornmend that the parking areabe paved with bituninous surface and curb and gutter end thatdetailed grading and drainage plans be provided.
video canes
The applicant is requesting perrnission to rnaintain the video garoeslocated in the existing building on the site. Currently, there are7 video- ganes located within the building. Hhen the planning
Cornmission last reviewed this itero, it was discussed that up to 1Ovideo ganes could be pemitted withln the building. This was notaddressed as part of- the original conditional use pernlt.Therefore, if the Planning Comnission and City Council agree thatvideo .ganes could be pernitted on the site, thL condition-allouingthe video ganes would have to be part of the new interiu usepermit. Staff is coDfortable vith peraltting up to 1O video gameswithin the existing structure of the site.
Sion
The last tine that the Planning Cornmission reviewed this iss-ue,there was discussion on uhether or not the applicant ahould- bepermitted a sign at the site. It uas felt that the applicantshould be allowed a sign to advertise his business but fiat thezoning ordinance should be anended to allow siqnaqe in theAgricultural District. Since this area is in such i tfansitionalarea with the Conprehensive plan shouing it as the 1995 Study Area,
Swings Golf Expansion IUp
Uay 15, 1991
Page 12
staff lrould prefer not to aDend the zoning ordinance to allou
:lglag? in the igricultural District but initead is qeconnending
!na! - t-ne sign be pernitted as part of the interin use pernitiStaff has spoken with the City Attorney and he agrees th;t thiswould be a suitable uay to pernit the signage and to control thetype-of. signage on thi:s speclfic slte. ihe-existing sign is a 3sided sign with each slgn face 3t x Gr for a sign tacl toiat of tssquare feet. During the previous discussion, a sign of 32 aquarefeet rras going to be the maximum size of signs pernittea. Sincethe sign- uould be approved specifically fof this site, staff isrecomrnending that the existing sign be- pernitted as pirt of theinterin use penoit and that the size of each sign faci shari notexceed 18 square feet. The appllcant wi1l s:tit1 Ue able tonaintain the 3 sides to the sign. -
CONDITIONS OA ORTGTI{AI, CONDTTIOTTAIJ U8E PERUIT
Hours of Operation
During -the last discussion in front of the pranning conmission, itwas fairly clear that the hours of operation sho-urd reiain fronsunri.se to sunset and that night hours shall not ue pernittea.This is a condition of the origlnal conditional ,=. p"riii ind ifthe Pranning cornrnission and city councir still feeL t'hat the hoursshould be frorn sunrise to -sunset, staff uil1 continue to try toenforce this condition. shoul.d the pranning coDmission ana tityCouncil approve longer hours of operationr- the conditionaL usepernit condition liniting hours of -operatioir could be an"rrata.
Lightinq of the Site
A condition of the original conditionar use perrnit lras that therewould be no I i.ght standards on the site. this was part of thecondition requiring the hours of operation to be fron- sunrise tosunset. The applicant does have light standards on the site. Themajority of the lighting is decorative and of 1ow vattage along theniniature golf course area. But there are also several large iloodlights directed towards the niniature golf course area -and thedriving range area which appear to be tised for nighttiDe hoo.".Several of the flood lights are located on the building pointingout towards the driving range and the niniature golf courle and arenot fo-r security lighting. If the pfannLng Conmission and cityCouncil still recornnend that the hours be lirnited to sunrise tosunset, the flood lights located on the site should be required tobe renoved. Again, this is a condition of the original conditlonaluse pernit and can sti11 be enforced by the city as part of tbatconditional use. permit. If the hours of operatlon ale extended,the condition will be anended and the lightlng fixtures can remain.
The applicant is installing a chain link fence throughout the site.The fence reguires a building pernit. The applicant should bereguired to receive the pernit for the fence.
SUI,TI{ARY
The Planning Connission and City Council have the follouing optionsto consider:
Swings colf Expansion IUP .
May 15, 1991
Page 13
MisceLlaneous
Reconmend deniaL of any expansion of the 6ite.
Reconnend denial of any expansion of the site until the siteis brought up to code,.i.e. bullding receive a certificate ofoccupancy, hook up to septic systen site, neet any existingand nev conditions of approval.
1
2
3. Recont0end approval of the proposed expansion, all or part, andapprove the proposed changes to the existing conditional useperroit.
staff is recoumending that no expansion of the site be pernitted orconsidered until the existing conditional use pernit is broughtinto confornance with City Code and conditions of approval hivebeen net. Staff is reconnending approval of the video ganes andsign advertising the business. These two itens were noi part ofthe originaL conditional use pernit and if approved must be part ofan interin use perait uith a ternination date. Staff wouldreconmend a ternination date for the video ganes and sign of rrhenthe facility ceases to exist. The video ganes and- sign areaccessory to the business. Therefore, staff does not feef 1t isnecessary to set a shorter tine period for the video ganes andsign.
Should the Planning coEnission-and City Council recommend approvalof any expansion of the site, it should be nade with the coir-aitionthat the whole faciLity nust be approved as an interin use pennitand-that the applicant agree to the City revoking the existingconditiona-l use pernit. This combines the facllity under onepernit and allolrs the city to set a date when the tse nust beterminated. This would- be_ advantageous by consollaaiing aconfusing issue. ALso, the site ls loLated in- tfre propo=ed 1995study Area. The resqlt of the 6tudy area could greatliy atfect whatuses uourd be conpatible at this site. A terDination Eate could ber{rhen the property is vithin the UUSI line and/or rrhen the 1995study Area is_.conpleted. If expansion is approved, staff uouldrecommend- tabr ing action until staff provides liecessary conditionswhich would include the following:
Swings colf Expansion IUP
May 15, 1991
Page 14
1. The existing conditional use pemit sha1l be revoked by theCity Council and the existlng and new facility will beco-ne aninterin use pernit.
into conpliance with City Code andThis includes hooking up to an
3. A grading and drainage plan shal1 be subnitted by theapplicant and approveil by Ctaff prior to any Dore alteritionsare nade to the site.
4. Any parking areas shal1 be paved with bituninous surface.Curb and grutter may be required by the City BngineeringDepartnent after revien of the grading and drainage plans.
RECOID,TENDATION
2.
Staff reconDends thenotion:
The site will be broughtconditions of approval.
approved septlc site.
Planning Conmission adopt the foltowing
r'The. Pranning cornnission recoDmends approval of an interim usepernit to permit a 3 sided, 18 square ?oot sign to aavertise ttresyil?= facility _and permission to install up to 10 video gaueswithin the existing builiting vith the followi-ng conattions:
1. The interin use pemlt w111 be ter:minated upon cease ofoperatJ.on of the Swings facllity.
rhe Pranning cornnission reconmends denial of any other inprovenentsto the site for the follolring reasons:
1 The existing site is in violation ofconditional use pemJ.t.City Code and the
2. The applicant has expanded the site without prior approval ofthe city. rr
Note: If the application is denied, Btaff wi1l continue to uorkwith the appllcant to brlng the site into conplLance.
ATTACTT}.{ENTS
l./2. Cit-y Council ninutes dated lloveDber 16, 1987.3. city council ninutes dated August 22, Lggg.4. Planning Corornission ninutes dited SepteDber 21, 1988.5. lleno fron Dave Henpel dated October 25, 1990.6. lleDo fron Steve Kirchnan dated Uay 8, 1991.
I
City Council t,teeting - Novsnber 16, l9g7
B APPRO\AL CO},DITIOTIAL USE PERMIT DOCI'MB{T.
be wilting to support a situation in whictr he rpuld grant ttE city aneasement. rf the city wants to build a trail 0n both sides of cR 12, I trink,e should be. wirrirg to IEy for it but r'd like to have that option availabreto us. I think tltat saves l.tr. patton's feel ing t}lat it.s costing tlredeveloFnent money because !'Durre simply giving -us an easement ard yet itprotecrs tt'e abiLiti of rha city to -cdre=uacx-ana uriia-i tiii r"i"i.--
councilman Johnson: r tjtought that $as what the palk ard Rec aas asking foran) ray.
courci ltoan Bo)rt: what ne agreed to tlre other evening was that ur. patton sourdbuil'd tlE trail m bot} sides of cR 17 ard r think iark ard RE saidl trr.t ithg.cfose rDt to build it, ttere rrould be a reduction in Up traifi fees. rthink since then ne bave ircrease t}e amouDt of tlail.s we've as*ea ui. -i"tton
to bui ld in this develoFnent ard $ite possibry itrs reasonable to ask ior aneasgnent.
courcilman Bo],.t noved, ourciLnan Horn secorded tlEt ttte appricant provide aneasement on one side of county Road 17 for the future development oi a tlail,to be built by tjre city, if a trail on both sides of county ioaa t? is deemednecessary. AII voted in favor ard motion carrj,ed.
REVIEId S1IINGS RECRFATION PRqTrI, JOIIN PRYZT{'S, APPLICENT:
A. ZONING ORDI!.IAI{CE AMENDME}II TO I}trLIJDE @LE DRIVII.IG **" O' "6Elrr6Mi-useaup-ffi EEar-ouEast:aensso.-vr:s-nlzro
EIErrr.Ie-r, nreTrnc=
't
1
i
,
I!i
Barbara Dacy: I do need a clarification on one of the proposd crrditions ofthe conditional use permit but as to tle zoning ordina#e i.ena.*rt, thecouncir needs to act on the 2nd ani final reading on tbe zoning orainanceamendnent to allow golf driving ranges as a cordltional use wi[h oi *iirrootminiature gorf as an accessory use. Ttre five corditions ti,rt $L-Corn"ir pn tin $reir o.oEi on from l,tuy 4, 1987. Itre courcir at proved the contitionai usepermit ard also acred to qeny the wetrard alteraiiqr p".ria ; th;-6lirneeds to authorize execution of the coniitional use permit which "t"iiL"Prepared in Attactment *2. If I could review briefly one of the ;;;iio*.on the graphic here the biS blolr if 1ou uill, is tlre- wetla'd ;;* l;-&northwesr corner of the site.- The orarge area is where the .iniiLiJ c;tcourse is going ro be r.eated. Itre g_ray area is where t}e p.iii"q-;;i-i=proposed to be then there was a $rarl clubhouse buirdirg t.ir"iJ ieia- rti"corored sguare is tle nrgposed barting. brirding at that ii.". -
rt
"--u"IdrrgbuildiDg was not approved as part of tte cord i tional use
-p-,it-Iiliii' u.".over here represents the sepEic sy- stem sites adjacent to-calpin ir-ral.--rti,site plan shor*n here was submi tted in coniurction ,iqr- thg r.Jsc-aJG pranard.that landscaping plan is proposed to 6e tlre rnsrarration of a nrmrber ofdeciduor:s trees ard arso proposed construction of berm Jr*J ,ir,rlr'lJ!='represented in green. the appr ican_t also proposed ferrcing ".ooJ--ilLtir.perimeter of tie site as well as a feDce arourd the ,.xi-iuti-iJ ,liilprtt
19
Attxxr'rzur h ) ,a
24t
City Courcil I'beting - Novsrber 16, 19g7
area. So the corditional use permit has been designed to folloi{ l4> on theelemerts. thaE hras represented !y tlg applicant on tiis site piin anJ- -'
landscapirg pran. In number I the fir;t perrnil reE:ires suinission of arevised.grading pran shgwing tlre. rimi-ts 6t giiai.ng, methods of erosion clntrorard irdicarirq the revised rocarion of tlre iirkinj'l;a ;J;i,rbh;rI]" a" i.urecarl, the appricant had originaDy intended in ittering trre wetiai alea ardcreatirE a pord back bere ard to ro-wer t}e erevation or it= tiii-*o rn tiri"area for the cpnstruction of a battinq br:i ldinq. Since tle tletlard alterationpermit was denied ard sife the batti;, fiiut.g eras not ircl.ded in tleapproval, the applicant has changed hii prans so that we wourd rike to reducethe size of the hitl in.this arei art ""lrrd-oi atl, if d;id-;;l,carver erunty had a cort'ition tJ.,at tne Jtraci-area'for -t}e p"rxirrs -rot
"rdthe clr,bhou=" buildirB be ureasured trqrr Lss ieet tran tt= ""i,i"r
-iio-or
lrpil PS- r aporosize. to- rlre applic;;i ;i; ard to tre corrcii,--uut tr,way that first corditior shourd read- is sith the 5g foot structr,:ie-LGcx in9* A;2 district, the fi-rst cordition srrourt reaa, irnicating-the-;i".dlocation of the oarkirn lot ard cfOhouse -iig-ieet trcrn the center lire of C?rr7. rhar wourd take into accomodation u;ad;irio;r"rr6trijilv'E.a ro,cR r17 as we, as the 50 foot setback. r think ttrat rsas ii".os".o'Jl arong.I made an error in tie fogtagg from the ".;i;;'line of G"i;ilil;.. --rp
sizeof the parkirg lot rras primaiily uasJ cr-iip-use of the battirg uoirai[.-'*Eovided on the pran heie is coistruction or gi =pu".". rtre uafting buildingis not beirs included, there is * ;;;; t ;;r;-G;'"iil "tJ"illxfr .o.so what the first cbrd i Eion is- saying is trrai-tle pran should sbow ttr€ revisedlocation of.the parkirg rot ard ru rire to-"aa-tr= revised size ard locationo.f .the parking tor ard clubho,se--so trrat oe-ilpricanl f;r;;;r;;.il"or.=this in size, that's fine. FirErry, tr= pi* -irticated that the parking arearras to be bituminous ard aga-in r ipologiie, u,.t sttould Gr" u".n.-#iri"a inthe first cordition there. Nso, fhe 6ra iriance does reErire tir.i "ii-p"rxingareas shourd be rined by corcrete curb arso so d,e courcii ,"y *"riJioii""*"that in more detail tonight uut in -oroer iJ iIt"n oo, ordinarre, a senterEeshould be added that r]re- parking shar.r be puuJ
"na ri."o *iu, '*Lr.i! cu.u.The secord cordition *r"s.co:nmented on the ireviots staff report uaci in uaythat in older to be consistenr with our frirascapinj "iai"".-*,-s-dij"evergreens ard 2 foot evergreers shourd be placed 6t*een tr*'p".[ifo- .r.."ard calpin Btvd.. rhe propoTd fercing of -tle site, tire appfiiin[-iiaii"t"ato ne that ir would be ap6rroximatery 5 feet ard it ;hourd i,"t-"i*i'.ii ofeet in ctonformance witrr our ordinince. t$mber I ana S reafiy to tos-.1L..As 1ou recarr, t},e bathrooms rrere to be located in the battini 6oiiii* ".*.the applicant has fourd a better location for nouDd rl. i"." -il", -iitiii= ,r*.rf the battirE buirding.is no longer there, the bathr5oms "r. to r.'pI""a inthe crubhouse, the a;pricantis hai a coupte of options. tn can.eithir n:rnpthe. effluent to a septic s),ste$ sit€ to -t}e norih, instafi-a-trofaiil-i"i* o,rnsEr.r temporary satellites on tle property so what staff is,*orri"rti.,g!h.: if the septic -systsn sites are not to be used, then we .;;;;'--rnsEarratloo of a hording tank ratlpr ttEn installation of satellltes. rn anycase however, we want to insure tllat septic systen sltes "re proie"tJ out intlp field ard are not altered in case oey arl remov€it or ne&.a b,, tb.-applicant. If .the appticant is to instali a holding i-k, --th";-# Jiu orthe clntract with a ticensed ptmper stro,,-ld be provi'aea- 'sii,-tf,.idiii*t
-s-!:ll .c-ompty with arr the requirernents of the tiatershed oi"iii"t, ;ffi-.rdt{ildrife ard D}rR. Because t}re aplicant rill. be sutrnittir[ a-ieris.i' gl"aing
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r plan, the Watershed District atrproval wiII be necessary in that case. fheapplicant wirr trave to rec€i ve tlreir authorization. !bw, as to ttre rretrandalteration permit, Council action again was to deny that m Hay 4, 1987. Itleapplicant is proposing to prant grass seed in this area on . rfouiar basis inorder to pick rp the baUs frcmr the tee area. Because this area has beenfarrned in tbe past on a c.onsistent basis, staff did mt feer that prantinggrass seed periodically would be adverse to tlle rretlard areas. fle- pEepared apermit to allow seed ing of ttle site. If that is not consistent witlr *irt tteCouncil feels was their action on !,tay rl, 1997, then t}lat ne€ds to becorrected. tsmber 8, to insure completion of t-tre grading inprovements anil theparkirg lot, improvements ard so on, rE ask tlrat the applicani $rbmit a letterof credit in t}e anount of l.l.ot. rhe council discussed at tlre last neetingard made a c-ordi tion the zoning ordinarre anen&Bent to include the ,,ee thatthe hours of otEration rrould be from srnrise to sunset ard therefore tlpre
would be rto lightirg unless that nas a specific cordition of approral.Finally, there is an outstanding bill ircurred by M!. Hachmeiei - arA ur.Anderson. werre requiring that be paid ard if an additional revier wourd benecessary for the mourd septic slrstem sites belrord our current staff, thatwould be necessary that a crrdition that tlpse fees nould be paict by tle
appl icant also and that is consistent with all of our applicants for any ofour subdivision o! any tlpe of aFpl icant in the rural ai&.
uayor tlamilton: I can think of one question offhard. you said we rnnted to
have surb in there. I guess I donrt recall that in the rural area for anytlpe of a use like t}lis and I guess the anty one r can think of tlrat wourd befairly similar would be the mini-storage area. I donrt bel ieve that werequired curb ard gutter in that area.
Barbara DaqT: For Mr. Brownrs there was I bel ieve the main access drives,ingress and egress points to the develogrent.
llayor Hamilton: Right but not the whole, what l,ou would cansider the parking
area.
Barbara Dacy: Right. Ibnight I was indicating that tlre curbing ad t}!epaving ard the biturinous issue was not even discussed at the foy {thmeeting. -I was tne.rely pointing out tiat our ordinarce reSrires iL lhatpaved be lined with concrete curb so 1ou're consistent witlr the ordinarne.
uayor tramirton: okay ard r -uas just questioning tlat nondering if thatrsconsistent wit}! nhat we do in the rural area. rf that,s uhat oi:r ordinarre$)ls, I guess that surprises ne.
Barbara Ecy: Staff has been clnsisteDt in lecorflmerding tlrat that beinstaUed.
Halor llanilton: r'n sure 1ou have but ny quest ion is stlrr tie sane. rs ittlp ord inance that it would be installed in t}re rural areas?
Barbara Dacy: Your question, have you a[proved it in t}|e past?
City Courcil !,teeting - Novsrber 16, 1987
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City Oouncil Meeting - ltovsnber 16; 19g7
Mayor Hanilton: !lo, does it say that in the ordinance? llhat rural areas p:t:'n parking for whatever use yourre going to use, you have to tnve curu aragutter.t-
Barbara Dacy: rtE ordinance..does rpt specify if itrs urban or rural. rt sal-if you bave a parking area, it has to be pav& art ),ou have to tnu" corcr"tecurb.
Mayo! Hamilton: Nright, so thatis something that tlle courEil could decidewhether or not hre want to have that right? Staff is t..".r.rr irrg t!,"i-th.appJ'icant do Frt that in. r'm arso c'rior:s about the wetland rpi. rEre&awirg_tEt pu were showing us tbere ard the porti* i"-ti*;-i; "ffi".ary
Barbara Daqf: i{e asked the agplicant at t}at tine, rhat $e use as tbedefinition of edge of tlre wetrard is where the reed g.""" r"g.t"tion "t rtart' stops. That hras one factor because t}e reed gr""t- ,." p-r'.ar,,-ii*I-in *ri"area. the other reference that rre used was the o-fficiar oinrr"""n ,r"tr.r*map that was on fire. l'his part of the area does reflect cr tte conuurthatrs located on t}le rEtlards map.
ayor Hamilton: 9&rat class $etlard $as that?
Barbara Dary: It was a 1)lE)e II, Class B.
!'tayor Hanil. ton: Is that the lodest grade you can get?
Barbala Dacy: ltpre,s T)pe I hltlich is the lordest.
I'layor Hamilton: so itis next to the lowest ard that area hd been farmed loryears if r lenember clrrectry. r stirr, in being consistent ,it}t ,rLJ'i'"esaid in.the past, r don't ber ieve that's'a wetrari arg r woula 1il"'-to """some evidence if it is. r t}ink tlre applicant ought to u" aiiora use in uratarea. rt nay have been a wetrard at one tine ard gohn fitleat iL ueti o,wrong i.trs s-"re_si"g that's been done. r think tbat hers ""ia ur.t-.E"ii,.tfar north erd of that there is a pord or he wourd construc.t a
-poE -trit'coura
be used as a wetlard or as a retantion area for runoff to go i^nto t},e Leer.r rrould prefet to see tlrat done since hers filled t}le area -already, arrow hinto use it.. r guess r have stated that previously anat r stil.t feei'tlre sameIiy: r think anybot[ woulil have a hard time going out there ard t don,t careif ltrs tts. ticckwelr or our staff and proving t}|it trat is in racti wltrana.r don't think there's any eviderre out there. -E councir menbers tnve anyquestiors of tlE staff?
@urcirman'lrorn: qle of tie tlings t}lat ne requested uhen re reviewed ttrisrast time was.to get a genelar policy on arlowing thls t)pe of uae frcE uEPlar:ning Comrn iss ion. I didnrt aee any record that Urey Ua glveo us aguideline on this issue.
Barbara Dacyi As r interpretted the t/tinutes after reviewing thern, t}lat topicwas discussed but tlren r believe it ras courci rrnan Geving siying you have todecide on a lErticular issue at hand tonight ant that tw6 nolio-ni ecurred.
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Barbara Daqr: r guess r disagree because tlre five clrditions that t.}re councileventually approved were the strEcific rec€mmerdations of the plannirE
commission ard_ they nade a specific statenent saying that the batdn! Luirdingof the commercial recreational uses eras not appropriate in the rural- area.But they did distinguish between driving ranges ard miniature gorf courses.
They declined to act on the. golf c.ourse issrr because that was -not blought q)to them at that point although I recall that tlle plannirg @mm ission did saythat they would arl agree that a golf course shouril be alror.r€d in the ruraLarea. Basically what tlre counci r has atr?roved was tlp planning conunission
recc8nnendation.
courci lman Horn: rtEt's true but what ne also asked for was that tbe issue ofgorf courses in general be adilressed in terms of our orerarr ordinane ard rdon't bel ieve it has.
City Courci ). Meeting - liovsrber 16, l9g7
so that i tem has not been brought back to the planning oommission for reviewgiven Council's action.
@uncilman.Horn: If. you read further in the Minutes it said that, yes we hadto act on this issue this evening but tErt of our probrem wittr aciifo trratevening was t},at we didn't have tle guideline and r,rhat we said is, tfrat weshould go back ard get a guiderire as to what t!,tE of uses rre shourd arrow ardwhere we should allow them and what kird of cri€eria we stroul.d grt on thosekirds_of uses. Specifically the issue of the battirB area had 6one rp anithat is.rpt addressed anylhere. we also described the fact that if yiu readour ordinance it doesn't allow a golf oourse anyplace in the Cier wi-thout aconditional use permit. rhat l,as another one of the issues t}ac ne wanted toaddress ard brought back to us for us to act on llcw ue ocnre back to thisissue again and we donit have any further recorunerdations or any furttErguidance on this thing ard it seems rike we'|ve lost a lot of tiure where wecould have been making a poricy on tlEt so orEe again instead of proactive,hE're retroactive.
Barbara Dacy: yes, they have rDt addressed that but I guess I still donrt.urdersbrd how that issue would relate to l,t!. ttyzl,lusr appticatian beca"se rdon't. think tlre- driving range and miniature golf-course ii clearly i aiitir.tuse than a golf course.
@urci lman Horn: what you-'!.e teu iDg us is that tlrere is rD anomary to theordinance to date. rtrat this is a vtry clear cut issr:e fron our ofrrnarro..
Barbara Dacy: Ttre Council -act9d to aEprove tlre p!.anniog Comnission I
rec'onmerda-tion for the gorf drivirg rarEes ard miniatuie goJ.f courset lltnydid Dot address a golf course issue at all.
councilman Horn: r uDderstard that. Based on the current ordinarre?
councilman Johnson: As r said in !{ay, r trrinr we shourd arlow at least treseeding in that area to rnake the area usefur. r do not think we strouia naxenajor grading changes to that area. It Etill, with the proper seeding, wlll
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function as a nutrient drain the $etlard area. T?ris is another example of howthe rH 5 oorridor there needs to be looked at. we are in t},ui pi*"-""] rguess rookirg at the entire downto$rn to rr.r 4r as [Ert ot oo. .ripi.t"i!i".plan.
John ltlzmus: As far as lf I can have it, rrhatever 1pu decide as far as t}legyrPing we can 9o ahead ard do tiat but ehat r norkd wit}, staff is itter tie11 inches of rain, I went down ttpre ard mowed tltat area a week ana i Gfflater ard there wasnrt even any uater there so rrn not rorried atout fiir ir,gin the wet area at ar.r. cre ttring that r would-like t" t;p.*l;-ii,!-Lttirrycage or our proposar there. uas a battirg uutr4irry. rt wis &nsistent wrtlr my-
Iil":,"]?q and that pr_oject ras...to maki it fina-nciatly teasiure.--irceaeatrle battrrE cage or tlp.indoor g9f_f ard batlirrg. es far as tfe aensity of tfearea coincides rrith miniat-u-re gof f- _ana driving range. AIso, nhen tr=opie are
f.=i.s qglr they won't rearry.go off t}e site-so if r courd'rdn"iJ"i-L
"aathat building as a utirity uuitaing, tlrat woulcl ue d,e oniv tirirrg. -;h.. tir".F!, r won't be doirg an)rthirE in-tJre low. la'd at all otn& ti,ii-"""ai,g it.As far .as t}e grading perm.itr- ttrat goes along with the miniature go-r-irJw anawe won't plt any firr in the low area, we'lr -just knock aorm the 6r=-tiir ..rjust p:sh it to the back - rtrere yfrf Ue a ".iyminirur;;;t';i;ji;g *the site.-. so if pu ,ould reconsider auowi.q haviDg ; ,iirrlv;iiafii t"nEke it financially feasible. ..
Mayor Hanilton: rhatrs an.entirely selnrate issue. r guess if rrou r.nt thatto be reconsidered, lrou,Il- l.ry. to UriDg it tuck at ano[her tirnel oo po t r.any problems with the cprditions r thro,gh. 10 that eere outlined bra t#-cordi tional use permit? t*re those cortiiions acreptable to puf-' - -
John Pryznus: the curbing and?
City Council Meeting - Novsnber 16; 19g7
Mayor ttanilton: Itpre are 10 conditions.
thsn?
tbve ]rou had a chance to review
John ltlIzfl.ts: I di&trt.
@uncilman Bolt: Did yor: fill in tlE rretlard?
John E)rznus: Yes, I filled in Fart of it.
Councilman Bolt: Did pu have a permit to do that?
John kyaous: there isnrt any retrand on the property. r have a letter fronthe DI'IR sbting that ltts rpt a protected setlard.
CorrrEi lltlan Bo)rt.3 l{ell the City considers it a $etlards .nd ]'ou filled it inwithout a pernit, ls tlEt correct? I just rant to get r cfe& statr:s on trow
I:- -Io:t. the uetland. My urderstanilirE ls we lost the retlantt because 1pufilled it in.
I'ta]ror tlarnilton: thatrs correct.
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City Courci I l,teeting - Novsnber lG, Iggz
I Counciknan Bolrt.: What )Du're basically asking to do witlr the t etlards andwhat thg city proposes is a eretland, is to seed it, now it, treat ii iii. .ny
?S:r ,!i= of grourd.. I rrrould Like to ask the staff, is this going to irn$elt's ability to do erhat it,s doing now? '
Frbara Daqg: When Dr. Rockwell. visited tlE site last E rirB, stE clrnmentedthat the area is rearry not acting as a good place ror ulitii which is qre ofthe criteria for a wetlard. rtis main furction was serving as an area forrecharge aDd a storm water retention area before it gets {o a creek arorg t}renorth. side of the property. staff fert tltat because tlrere was goirg to be noadditional fill or alteration of the property, that it nourd coitinie to lemainlained the way it was in the last-severaf years, that rre felt that theseeding $ould mt affect tttat furction at all.-
Councilman Boyt.: Noh, I heard somethirg about an offer to build a pord or! theproperty as a hording pord. r tlink tiat']s a reasonable offer ard we strouldtake 1ou r{) on that.
Barbara Dacy: lt,at was part.of the original wetland alteration permit requestthat was denied by the Council so if you're proposir8 to do that; he wouldhave to reapply for that.
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councilman Boyt: rbr., are 1ou proposing ard how wourd lrou like to al,ter thatHetlard any differently than what you propose to do nowZ
John Pryanus: you means as far as building a porri?
@uncilman Bo)rt: No, as far as the particula! eretlard, rs that where you areproposing to build your pond?
John Ftyarus: yes it reulil be donn at the erd of the road area.
counci rman Boyt: Alright, so what other kirds of charges rere l,ou proposingto nake in the r€t1and?
John tsl anus : Arr r r.,ant to do is just rike r have tlrere on the ser*er.
Councilman Bo)t: Do we have- any difficulty witn hio impro,irg tlE wetlani?l{e seem.to have set a precedent irdicating agreement a ao trrit before. weuJay, maybe when it gets .to be your turn )rou can csmrnent on thaL fhs, tJEother situation I have is-
-on tlre parkinj lot. rs I lead tte o;ain;;, ltrs aIirrle differenr than staff i_s_.inierp_retlirq iU It sa),s on page l2ii, i"murtiple family, business, office anil inaustriil distrilcts. 'w""i.-rni'in -yof those so it does state that a lErson ne€ds to have sqne
-soii oi i*t tr*,all weather surface ard c.oncrete crrrbing. rtrs rear. speciric as to -ntreie inthe city r€ can require that. r ber iev6 tlris is an .gricurhrr.r ;i";i.t?
lhyor llami lton: Itrs A-2.
Counci lman Bolt: I tiink given the surface area, lt probaby makes sense toP(rt a concrete curb arourd this but r donrt think the- city -ord inance requiresit- I think it's kind of conmeo sense if you,re 9oin9 to p,ri . Gia sur'race
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City Courci I |feeting - Novsnber 16, 1987
on that muctr grourd to have some neans of controllirB the runoff from that.So to kind of summarize hrhere Irn at right now, on t-tre wetlard, if yourregging t? improve it, I can certainly be convirced tlrat gradirg art jeeairg isappropriate since it doesn't seem to interfere with whal it,s doinq rpw. Ontlre curbing, I'm okay with.going on the curbirg uhichever way you iant becauseour ord inance doesn't require it as I lead it. lbrrever, f woufO certainlylook favorably upon puttirry concrete c-urbirg arourd lour lnrkirg area. Mybiggest clncern is that rrerre sitting in an agricultural irea afo we areproducing what r think is goirg to be a tlernerdous traffic aenerator. Aclllector into this particular spot. BJsiDess t{€ek in the tast nonth had anarticle that irdicateit that minilture gorf courses are doirE quite wett. rthink we see an example of tiat on Et t ard IH ro1 and r think ne shourd viewthis as a [Ermanent structure ald not as a temporar!, structure until smet]rlngbetter comes. along. r donrt lsrrf, that werve aone J trartic study. lrave uedone a traffic study?
Barbara Ecy: No rrE have rpt for this.
Counci lman Bol'!: .I.gathg! that werre saying we,re preparirg to alprovesomething t},at r tlti nk will generate a greal dear of draffil. ts-i countystudy done?
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Barbala'Dacy: lhe @unty has reviewed t}e site plan. rheir recwren.r.FtionHas .that the acc€ss be tocated 3ag f-.=.t to the n-ortJr of the lntersection.
councilman Boyt: rGlbe people wbo are more familiar witb that lErticurarintersection than I EEn can add to more that.L
Barbara Dacy: We do have books r:psta irs from the Institute of TrafficEEineers that estimate the amount of traffic to be generated frqn niniaturegolf courses and retail uses and so on. r think when ue r,r,ent to thror:gh theprocess rast spring the rnajor concern uas the batting buirdirg because thatwould generate more traffic on a cnonsistent basis. rhe minialure gorf coursetraffic would be seasonal in nature. peak periods nctuld be on satrirday ardSurday ard evenings.
counci lman BoF: you're saying wtren tlre traffic load uould terd to be lighteron 111 5, this. . .
Barbara Ecy: Itrs cpnsiderably less tban a retail use or commercial
recreational use.
Courci kEn Boyt: You donrt onsider t}lis to be corparable with a retail use?
l,tayor Hanilton: I guess_ lf ne did a traffic studly it lrould probabl.y show uslrhat we already know and thatrs Utat Ttt 5 is orrerr:sed anil if src hav! another
use along the highway ltrs goirB to clntinrE to overload it Bcme more. I have
no other cqments on ttle h€ proposed itglls before us.
@uncilman Bo)t: then Hetre saying we nake this anerdnent ttrat anyore in theagricultural area can oome in and apply for a mlniature golf course ard a golfdrivirg range?
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l'rayor ltanilton: Right, as a corditional use.
councirman Bo)rt: Ard basicarry we can only turn down a conditional usereguest when there is sqne overriding corcern. tie canrt do it becau- theneighbors don't mnt it ttrere?
!'layor lbmilton: corditiorEl use has alrays given us a great dear of lati tr:de.
Roger loutson: You have a good discretion cn iL you canrt htm it dou,nb€cause the neigtrbors don,t like it. Itrey frown m that. you have toexercise ]rour oe,n judgment.
Mayor H.Enilton: thatls true Bill. thfortunately thatrs tlre case.
Councilman Horn: I believe that orE of tlre requireurents re Frt m here isthat it be located adjacent to a najor road nith an off streit acress.
@urcilmaD Johnson: Erom a corlector or aD artelial. Not just an off-street
access.
Councilman Horn: ltrich rill lirlit it to some degree.
councirman Johnson: lrtpre arenrt that arany sites lrho could develop this. r{especified IH 5 ard TH 2L2.. t{erle not oIEniDg tnis rp to ttle 6tir; A-2district.
l'layor Hamirton moved, oounci rman llcm secorded to alrrrove the zoning ordina;c€
Amerdment Reguest Sg2-4 to amend Article V, Section 3(4) to aUow golf driviirgranges with or without miniature gold courses as a conditional use in $e A-2,Agriculturar Estate District ard to anend Alticle u section 9(1rl) to alrorstandards for golf &iving ranges rrith or without uriniature golf courses:
I. the location of t}e drivirg rarge is 1inited to being adjacert toTH 5 and TH 2r2 art asress must be fron a clrrector or aiterial whichleads to TH 5 o! Ti 2L2.
2. tlcurs of operation shall be frcrn sunrise to sunset.
3- Provision of adeguate .parking areas ard suhnissiqr of lardscapingplan in confornrance trith Article vlrr of the Zoning odinance.
4. No site shatt be located within 500 feet of a singl€ faroilyresidence.
. 5.' rhe building to be constnrcted dr any site nould b a rnaxinrra of gg0
square feet ard shall be painted in larttr tones.
All voted in favor and motion carried.
rGyor Hamilton: rtem b is to atrprove tlte corditionar lrse EEnait delrment.the
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appricant has said that he hasnrt reviesed the r0 itens. rs there imotion. to handle it€m 6(b)?
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City Courcil l.leeting - Novsiber 16, 198?
Councilman Johnson: Did the applicant get this?
I'layor llamilton: I donrt think so. yourve been norking with hin ratherclosely, itrs hard to bel ieve he hasnrt.
Barbara Ecy: I know tlre packet i'as sent out to ),Du on Eiday. you have notrec€ived it?
John Eyarus: frve been out tDrking at t}|e site so I haveo r t gotten my mail.
Barbara Daqf: It t,as sent to the Saratoga Drive address.
councilman Johnson: Hhi te lre have a slight break tcre, Bilt rras tarking $outthe rretlards doHn there. B1z iroprovirg the wetlards, I do have a sligbtopinion on that. rf we'ire rrct buililing tlre battlng cage, which at tliis tirnewe arentt, our amount of impervious surface being added to the area areminimal. the amount of lnclease runoff ttEt rou-rd require an increasedhordirg pord should be urinirnal. rf ne can keep t}rat alea as an infiltlationarea velsus a holding pord area, r personalry believe it rpurd be best servedto keep it in the same use as what nature has it now. t{ot n€c€ssariry makinga holding pord in a wetrard. is an inprovernent to the uetland in ny ofinioncertain wetlards have certain !f,rrE oses. Ttris setrard ard the arei adjacent toit appears to be a infittration area. thfortunately therers about a ioot otdirt in many areas on top of what useil to be tbe wetlards but r think'if we
fug deee enough we wourd find tlre wetrand that was there. At tlris tirne, if wehad approved the other building there, then I erould be insistirg rpon aholding pord to slou, down tle lunoff going into tle creek trreri uui at thistime r donrt think therers a great neea to-try to improve that wetrani. whenyou try to improve somethingf 1ou sometimes inay scriu it r:p.
Courcilman Horn: Itrs already broken.
Mayor tlamilton: Blt itrs broken like Clark sa)rs. It cluld be improved Iwould think dramaticalry because if you wark back there therers nothing thereard it could be irnproved to be sdflething.
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Councilman Johnson: Aesthetically yes but hldraul ically Irm not sure if tle
improvement will -be any different. I haven't seen any iacts or figures to sayiL As an area of infiltration ard recharge of grourd h,ater, it siU continuEfurction as srctu you trrt it in as a poni ard we have a better mosquito
breed irg area.
CourEi lnan Bolt: lhe holding [prd isn't in t-he conditlon ln the cordition asit starrls.. I would like to see it grt in I think it could help it inrprore .
Mr. Itlzmus seems be wi11in9 to [r:t it in. Is it acE€ptable to an6d t}le
wetlard alteration permit?
the
Courci lman Johnson: I€ denied it.
Barbara Dacy: If ]rou rranted to provlde for a ctrditional use permit, you
c\ould include it in cordition nunber I ty sayirB, suhnission of a revised t
28
2bb
gradirg plan by Decsnber lst-irdicatirg location of a holding pord.
Mayor tlamilton: r guess r was trinking of the same thing but r would rike tosee John be ercouraged to cc'me back ard request a wetrard alteration IErmitagain showing what 'he,s going to do witlr ti-r. pord. I guess Id kiiri iri fiX.to see because )lou at one time agreed tltat llou rrould do thaL Just improvethe pond in t}re north end. rtren ue wouLd lrave some idea of rhat it,s loing tolook like ard whar he,s goirg to do because I think you eould sti[ li[e t5luve a 1=rmit.
John Prlzmus: r'm working with Birl Ergerhardt right mr and hie,re working onthe chargeorer frcnr tlp firred in areas to p:t a poro in tlrere ard have hiriard tbe Eun deciile hon big ard r,{hettter they tnink it etrould be there.
!.layor tlam ilton: Okay, ard then that could be a IErt of tou! request for aeretlard alteration permit ctrnirg back to us at another time.
John Pr)rznus: It lrould be nice to have that as a cerditlat if loud let me
have rny batting building.
l,lal'or Hamilton: therers no leason, if you want lou cari ask for both of thoseagain. I can't tell lrou to or not to but if ttlatrs sotettrirg lrou $ant to do,
tbatrs
_
sonething lou have to decide if 1pu rnnt to come bacli ana reguest oneor ei ther or both, thatrs rp to l4)u to nake tlnt lequest.
Counci ]man Johnson: John, do ]rou Ent this pond?
John E)rzmus: I think as far as from the area, the pord isnrt goirE to hurLne.
Courcilman Johnson: What about the septic systems? you trlked about tlE
c-onversion there to a holdirg tank versr.s a septic systs!.
Barbara EEqr: lilo, thelers m change proposed wit h that. Orrritions 4 alral 5remain the same.
City Council !,feeting - Novsrber 16, I9g?
CourEi lman Hom : l{e could jnclrlie an asl*ralt curb.
t
L
counci rnan Johnson: r prefer to get slEet flor.r off of the prking area.
Hayor lhnilton: I sould too. r donrt lstow tlEt much about rrater rurpff butit would -seem that if 1ou hav_e water runnirg off , donrt rou aJrese'-i-rreaFount of velocity conring off of an area by doing that. - rtratis ,t i G..alua)E. tryirg to do.
Barbara Dacy: Ihat be addressed ard revierred bry staff.
Mayor HamiLton: It seems. Like :e. alla!,s talk abolt decreasirg the velocityard that rould seem like ttrat might do -tlrat. tE]rbe it Ooeinai, -iair;t-m",r.
Counci Lnan Horn: l€trs leave off everlthing uit] cr:rbs.
29
I
ata) 1,
City Council tleeting - Novsnber lG, l9B7
Gary warren: Wer1l look at that uith the plans that cqne in.
l,layor Ha,nilton: I guess Ird be c{rious to lslow if it does or doesnrt.
councirman Horn noved, Nayor lhmirton seconded to altr)rore the corditionaL usePermit_ Document as presented with the folrowing amendurent to tlte firstcordition:
I
I $rhnission of a revised grading plan by December l, 19g7 strowing t}reproposed limits of grading, methods of erosion control nhere
necessary^, .indicating t}e revised size arrl location of the prkinglot ard club house ard 150 feet flm tle centerlirE of couniy noa6117, ard proposed berm areas alound the trltting green and:niiriaturegolf course area. Ttre parkirg lot shall -be pved. City Staff shallreview and approve said plan p,rior to activity currir! on tlre siG.
lGyor Hamilton: we've bad an olpoltunity to see one of these previousrv ardJirn has made some recommendations to r:s] Reading ttrror:gh Ji;,;-- ----
tecommendations sayirg the ultimate solution t.}nugtr may-be the elinination ofhynli?g all t€ether nithin the city J.inits of chanhasien r couldn,t agieewith less. r donrt think that's the uLtimate sorution at arr. rtrere iieareas in the city where you can hunt especiatly around Ric€ Marsh take oEswajnp or whatever you call iL rtere are a nurber of areas souul of rH 5 thatare oertainly acceptable- for_ strotgun. hunting of birds ard fowl but perhaps notany longer of deer. Although -there is ernugh open space so I think slughunting is probably pret-ty safe al.so but to-get- to tlre real. problern, i#se aoggonq -geese. Personally I guess, unless everybody $ants a report from Jim, Iwould really like to see us just say m huniing mrth of rr 5 period. wbetherit's a special hunt or non-special, hunt so you don't run into €ne sameproblsns ne did last ti.ne. that sns a rress.
AII voted in favor ard motion carried.
CONSIDERATION oE ALI,W:ING HUI.ITING NORL OE TH 5, DNR COITTROI.LE @OSE HLnrT.
L
councikran Boyt: I think that rre have a tlemendous problen witi the ceese inthis city. As muclr as I like to see- them !Iy, I urdLrstand that " 9o& ..rry
lEople donrt like to s€e them on their yard ard what tley leave behird. Iwould think tiat it is a difficult issue trhere we al.row peopre to hunt northof TH 5. I agree Hith you by the way on hunting south of TH 5. I think thatthere are still some areas where [Eopre shourd be able to hunt in chanhassengiven the level of develotment as it is right rrw. t would like to see uslook at sotne sort of reasonabre guideline tiat ur. chaffee could use in ttoinga preliminary screeo on a requesL Whethe! itts north or souEL I rouldthink scmething in the rEighbolhood of Lr$gi yards frcm any hone.
Hayor Haoilton: Peet o! yalds?
Councilhan Boyt: !b, yards. llhe reason I say ]rards is because thatrsresically tlre maximun carrying di stanc- of a shotgun ltis not going to carrythere with any ability to do anltthing. C€ntlemen, I can assure Oat-tf pu t
3g
Planning Commission Meet i ngApril 22 1 1987 - page 27
configuration of the roadways that
Conmission for rev iew.
that cone before the planning
All voted in favor and motion carried.
Siegel noved, Headla seconded that the Planning Conmission reconmendapproval of the Wetland Alteration Permit l8?-5 with the followingconditions:
The Class A wetland sha1l be preserved by a conservation easementestablished at 75 feet fron the ordinary high water mark.
1
2 The applicant sha 1I
areas throughout the
areas.
Provide drainage easenents over the pondingsite and not al.low any altelation to the
All voted in favor and motion carried.
Erhart: Can you explain what iten number 2 in your recomnendation neans.
Olsen: what they are providing, in what they call a storm water easement,Irn just making sure that they definitely provide easements over that anilthat those are protected areas so they l,onit be altered.
Erhart: Altered?
Olsen: Such as nowing the lawn.
SWINGS RECREATION, LOCATED ON THE NORTHWEST CORNER OF HIGHWAY 5 AND CO. RD.
11?,JOHN PRYZHUS, APPL I CANT:
ZONING ORDINANCE AT'IENDMENT REQUEST TO AMEND THE A-2,AGRICULTURAT
ESTATE DISTRICT TO ALLOW GOLR DRIVING
d6u ns Es-ENE I Hooon @.He-* rffmf
B. CONDI T I ONAL
RANGES, MINIATURE GOLF
AS A CONDITIONAL USE.
u9P PERMIq !EOU9Sr EoR A GorF pRrvrNG RraNGE,
AND AN INDOOR BATTING BUILDING.
H INIATURE
GOLF COURSE,
c.WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT REQUEST TO FILL IN A CLASS A WETLAND.
Barbara Dacy presented the staff report on the zoning ordinance Aeendmentrequest.
Conrad: Where else would a golf driving range be in the city?
Dacy: currently a golf ilriving range is not listed in any other comnercialdistricts so basically a golf course or golf driving rangl is not apermitted or conditional use within the City of ChanhassEn.
A.
Planning Commission MeetingApril- 22 I 1987 - page 28
Dacy: What happened was, iluring the zoning oldinance revier processseveral times in 1985 and 1995. The Bruff creek golf course now isconform_ing use as a golf course but we do recarl d-iscussion that thecomm-ission did have problems rrith a golf driving range in ihe ruralyou didnrt think it was appropriate. rt createil- somi traffic alongroads so it irasn'it approved ai a part of the new ordinince iirus ttreappl icati on .
we tnet
a non-
a rea.
those
Conrail3 John, you are the applicant. SpecificaLly John werre talking onthe zoning and before you-tel1 us what your range Jnd what yourconfiguration h'ouLd rook like. r donit know hoi r can iiiit yoo to just onesubject. You are asking Jor a zoning change or you are asking to amend theordinance based on a project that you,ve got. idon,t want t5 review theploject yet. r realry do want to ieview -the concept. of the three thingsthat you've asked for,- in general in the City of Ci;;ha;;e;: Can you ke6pus away fron your project for a while? Oo you have anything to teII .usabout driving tanges in chanhassen? Persuade us that -we sh6ul.tt have dri.vingranges in .Chanhassen is what my challenge to you would be.
John Pryzmus! - on page 8r basically my feelings ln the chaska tterala is anad r developed. I spent a lot of [im6 wittr tie people piinning it.-aii"inglange out there now. rrve been in front of the Eity coincil a60ut twoD-onths ago and at that time ere didn't have the totai prans indr the layout ofthe new facitity. rt bad been approved originalrv iive yeais ago tor- adriving range anil r never aia opli it. l w6rked -on it giiduarl! over therast 5 years and being that the littre one r hair in towi, there vras nodevelopment on it, r never had a reason to open the new one. r brought inPeopl.e from chicago, John Jacobsford colf ana rre eent and lookeil at 6veryd:iving range in the Twin cities area and the!e are a lot of ilrivinq ,.ni".that aren't kept up very welr and a rot of them are Just .n inErn -'u"" ;;;-"piece. of property untir you put it into an industriai p"ri'or rrhatever. iouaren't going to buy an industrial park.for driving -ranles but you do buy adriving range for indust!ial parksl with this pr6iectl I'ur not proposi'ng itto be used as an industriar park down the road. rl's a half a .ittiondollar project that should enhance the recreational facilities for theconnunity. rn all the .response rrve haitl they are 100t for the projtct. rfeer by getting community aupport, r f eel. that t rlant to show the co-unciland the Planning comrnission that not onry dto r uant to make a businessventure out there, I've already spent a lot of raoney buying the lanit. Ibought it on a contingency that r could have a driving iange then that rrasapproved so I guess lrhat I $ant to do nor. I otiginally piopoeedl arniniature gorf in my original proposal andt that Cas turned down but erhat rt ant to do is make it financialry feaslble for me to do it as an investmentand also make it a goodl thing for the cotomunity. with the nature of TH 5and there is not rear).y a traffic problem. Theie numbers hight not arr beright but you have approxinately ag,SSg cars going by tbere i day so therewonrt be a traffic inpact.. They wourd be coming off of TH 5 and going down
conrad: can you refresh.ry melgly why that is? I,m looking at some notesrhere we specificarly said we did not want that in agricultrirar area and rhave a hard time recaLling that.
Planning Commission MeetingApril 22, I9g7 - page 29
100 yards on a major collector road which is tar.
conrad: John, r think you are getting into the specifics of the project anf,rrur rearly trying to focus on the ordinance itseri right norr. we-haie tolook at the ordinance and say does it !nake sense to allow driving ..ng.iiDoes it make sense to arlow sorne buildings out there and you can cone backin a few seconds to tatk on the specificJbut anything elle that you cinshare with us in terms of, I know they are real closery tied togelher.
John Pryzn.us: r guess mgybe if r courd just ansrer any questions you havebecause if r start rarnbring on and on r might get back into that. rf thereale solne questions as far as if it ni11 be compatibre. Hy neighbors outther-e, I have a group home to the rrest of me a-nd conttac&r yaids to thenorth of me. Dare Green has a farm to the 6outh of ne. A giy nameil Larryvan Deveire has the land to the east of ne and I talked to trin anil he feeisitts commercial. one of the gentlemen here, John Hennessey, he has the 1an(-to the northeast corner of me so basicarly what I'n trying to do by gettingconmunity support is not set a precedtence in allowing any kind of commerciatproject. Like Barb stateal, a driving range needs a -lot of land. It isnrtrike putting a gas station out thele. The Einiature golf anit tbe batting
9a9es, the three of them blend together to nake it financially feasiblefirst of aII but they also nake ii a nice project for the peolle inchanhassen. Like you just had on your nap, each deve).oper gives park spaceFThey put in basebalr diamonds. The city is acquiring propeity to adil threemore diamonds just a urile to tbe east oi this projecl.- ftrey ire puttinglights on the park because there is such a deuind -f or a recreationalfacilities.and as a private. developer, there wonrt be any city noney oranything like that. -This wi}l be i private venture so r thini it w6uld justbe in askiog too hrith hrhat ttre City already is doing hrith their parks an6with their recreational facilities.
Roger schmidt3 r live out in that area. r guess my thinking is that rhaven't seen a driving range yet in the netroporitan area th;t r think is a _definite asset as far_ as.aesthetics go on,thJ community. They are usualrylocated in mote of a business area or with a golf courle and iven a gorfcourse is stuck back in a corner someplace rrhere they arenrt that vi;ibIe.Being a resident of that area, rrm aomerrbat concerned- that werll, ptou,Jry -
9n9 gp with a very simirar situation that you have t ith 9st of thi othei'dlriving !?nge! and ri$ very much concerned:fron tbe standpoint that r donrtsee the.city doing much policing in the area of taking caie of what,J oot- - -there right non. Thatrs been, for several years, rlglit now ii,s nott ing -uot
a junk pile and we've had conments from people out-oi-town and in town -
asking us $rhatis going on ove! there and-it;s kind of ernuariissing -iJi o" to_have to adtnit that we're riving in an area that rooks tike that. r thinkthat particurar spot, as far as driving, ranges rithin ttre city, r thinkthere probably are spots for then but [hat larticurir. one,-i uourd think youlook at it as your weste!n gateeay into torin andt r think you stroura look at -that-.as something that you don,t rrant to b_uitd up rrlth things that Drobabry?.renrt 9oin9 to be complirnentary to the city. ybu have to 6icitte u-rrethti-'that is a comprimentary -activity o1 n9t and- obviously th- ottrer ttrlng iiritI'm concerned about is the cornmercializ.tion of the 6istri"i. rt's not
Planning Commission MeetingApril 22, 1987 - page 30
allowed. as far as your zoning now and I think people kind of go by thezoning issues i{hen they decide to locate there an6 you don,t irbiirarilychange them so I think you should give that serious consideration also.'
Headla noved, Enmings se-conded to close public hearing on tbe zoningOrdinance AmendmeDt. All voted in favor and notion cirriecl .
Headla: I don't understand -w\t hqving a driving range, and the battingthing and the miniature golf is diffeient but r don,i iee why a dtrivin!range would be of any benefit. r think there are several doinside .i!3ctsof it but I don't see any upside aspects except the person running th;range. I tbink the people surrouniling that night suifer.
Conrad: You've got to consider ttremDriving ranges are useil.
Dacy: I canrt pinpoint the date. We diilfiles. It $as a fairly short discussion,
like a golf course. people use it.
go back and look through the
siegel: what was the justification or the reasoning behind us or staffrecomnending the exclusion from the A-2?
Dacy: The way it was proposed, it was listed because it was consistent rrithour prior ordinance. However, lt was the specific reconmendation to havegolf courses and driving ranges removed.
eI: In essence rrhat rre.re doing is removing any possibility of havingcourse or driving range in the City of Cbanhaslen.
Dacy: Thatrs correct. The Bluff creek golf course is now non-conforming.
siegeL: well, that doesnrt make sense to me. rt just doesnrt make sense.If sonebody came in r.rith a plan for a beautlful gort course in the rorring
Sieggolf a
Headla: Then if r rook at. the location, then r wonder about Garpin Blvd..JiT on that road quite a bit. r ride a bike on that anir right nou, r don,tlike the way the cars are on there. Do you rr"v.iny i,iL" -tr"', much trafficcomes and goes from one of those faciliiiesa
Plyzmus: rtm sure there wiLl be some nrajor amount of traffic. r donrt. knoe,hrhat vou eonsider major but most of it wirr ue comin! ;f;-;i TH 5 so ttrei -'
hrou-ld be com-ing off TH.5 doi{n lgg yards and turhing i-n tirere.. The traff icstudy $e- do have a parking lot sch;dured for t6 spic--.- we overbuirt theparking rot basicarry. .r would say a fulr ari"i"i-;;;;. wiurdn't have morethan 3 or 4 cars at i time.. Tha!:; cornl".ing "ppi.- i6-oi"ng." because that$as a temporary thing and basicarly t!g- people ir-ou rit want -oietting to aodown on west 79th street where thi! wirr be a business that wirl bena i nta i ned .
siegel: r cantt recalr discussing our teasons for excruding gor,f coursesfrom the A-2 district.
Planning Conrnission MeetingApril 22, 1987 - page 31
hilrs of chanhassen, I'm sure the city counci.r and the city planning
comm_ission would jump at the chance to invite them in with open arms todevelop that as such. rn rieu of that, r rook at that piece- of property andr guess rrm new to the history of it and r guess the applicant. his Leen-'.reniss in some respects in his forrow through in what trl las been planningfo! that. In all due respects, I think re should apploach this as a newapprication for suctr use anil look at it in that tight. r think it wiii uean improvement on that corner and to me the location is narketabre as adriving range and as a niniature golf course. r tenil to favor that. unlesf,there is more stronger objections to granting a conditionar use permit inthe Zoning Ordinance, I would favor it.
Emmings: I agree rdith Bob 1g0$ that I can.t inagine rhy we rrouldnrt havegolf courses and driving ranges as a conditional use in the A-2 district. rdonrt have any problen l,ith that. r agree with the staff that miniaturegolf courses and indoor batting buildings such as this don't belong outthere and belong in a commercial district. Then having saial that, I guessputtin.g a rniniature golf course rrith the rest of ttte things that are here,the driving range and whatever a maxi-putt and puttj,ng green business arr -seems to be preEty cohesive anil make sense in this particular project so IrEhaving some problems with this. I donrt have any probleEl with the drivingrange being a conditional use in the A-2. I don,t think there ought to b-, -in condition 1, I donrt agree that they ougtlt to be abutting collectors. I -think they should only be on arterials. On najor streets, I think we uantto lean that r.ray toi{ards rnajor roadways. r think the second conilition isvery irnportant that they only be operated fron sunrise to sunset. I thinkthatrs adequate in the sunrner time and I think the lights would be a realproblen for anyone who lived around it. I guess thatts all I got.
Erhart: I disagree regartling the issue of irhether we should allow golfcourses and these things in tlre A-2 area. I agree with Bob. I thi;k ,rereally overrooked solnething in gorf courses and r dontt know enough that wecan lump practice areas in that or not so I don't have a strong flelingabout that. r do have a strong feeling about buirdings in the A-1 ahit A-2areas. These metar buildings and they tend to be the alea that acts as atransitional area from agricultural to the residental. In aouth Chanhassen -uhere people have built these metar buililings out in the country and r donrtknow for what reason, where they have not been part of a farn ho-nestead,they a_re rea!.ry an eyesore. Even though some of them are werr kept up, they-donrt fit so with respect to that, r eoul-d real against, that uattrng'practice thing requires netal or any kind of a -najor iniustrlal typei a"ykinil of a non-farm building or a non-house, r donit think it oughE-to ue-part of the A-2 or A-1. r think it shouLd not be part of the A--2 district. -I agree with steve entirely as far as the. drivlng iange. r guess as long asitts on TH s lrith the correct word is majo-r arterlarr- r guejs tt,s okay:-certainly the one the John- lan just rrest of -the city 'treie',-is long as €he." -sasn't Eny buildings and the grass was rnowed, r didiit think it ,is .neyesore at.a11. Regard.ing the buildin-g on_ the other hand, if werre going toput- a driving range in here, you probaEry nave to have some smatt uuiraiioto keep the tractor and stuff out of the-rain ao r guess r;;urdn;t;;a-.;small wooden garage or sonething just to maintain tiat kina of thing but
Planning Conunission MeetingAPtil- 22, 1987 - Page 32
Enmings: r rdourdn't like to Eee gorf courses includeil tonight for tworeasons. First of all, itrs not in front of us and that aLways makes meuncomfortabre but secondly, staff has obviously thought througb the kinds ofconditions we should impose on a driving rangJ, if wL,re going to alrow thatas a conditional use and r donrt see thal they bave had the opportunity tothink through conditions for golf courses as i conditional usi-and mayLethat ougttt to come back as a separate item.
Conrad: Thatts a good point.
rAt this this point a notion nas nade anil the following discussed occurred.
Conrad: Steve, did you leave out miniature golf courses on purpose?
Enrnings: Yes.
Siegel: Does the miniature golf courser in the eyes of us he!e, reflecta retail establishment? Wouldl that be the objection to including thatminiature golf course as a conditional use? It borders in the aiea of!etail establiEhment and eervice rec!ertional type buslness.
Emmings: The way I think about a niniature golf thing fits into acommercial area. Itrs conpact. you canrt put a ilriving range in justcity lot. You need soEe room. trliniature goJ.f courses don.t bother rae
as
a
in
certainry not a permanent indus-trial type buiriling. r agree the hours oughtto be sunrise to sunset. The second concern, r think in the A-2 area is f.oemphasize that we do not irant retail business in the A-2 area. For example,I canrt have a retail nursery on ny nursery farm. r can have rtrotesa:.e Lui'you canrt have retail. 'Again, reflecting on that, se have to be realcare.ful iJ uerre going to use it at arl, r think it shourd be on TH 5. Thatis the onry appropliate place to have this in the city. so the rest-;f ih;-conrnission can think about that retail issue and wervL got to be rearcareful about that. we consistentry said we do not wani retair businessactivities down there. r like 4 that certainly it should not be within 5ogfeet of a single family residence. our rrholesare nursery and contlactoryarals basically have to fit rrith that rule.
conrad: r have nothing more to adtd. r think gorf courses and drlvingranges are appropEiate in chanhassen. r don't think that buirdings out inthat area, specificarry indoor batting buildings, is what r want to see butto use the rand that way, r think is appropriate. r wourd vote for thattype of a use in a A-2 district. Hy onl.y comments other than that are weshourd have, if we make a notlon in favor, sornebody might t,ant to work theword golf course in. we donrt need to anil maybe a goli course is a wholedifferent set of circumstances. r don't know: The other part that r.rrourdlike to see is an intent statement in terms of ohy ne,re ailoning tiris ind Iguess one of the intents that r sourdt see as a conditional use, il tominimize impact on neighbors in terms of noise, traffic ana riinting. rthink we need sone kind of intent statenent arong rrith this if-we o6 chJoseto allow this as a conditional use.
Planning Conr-'nission ueetingApril 22, IggZ - page 33
the City, they bother ne to thinkdoesn't seem to fit at all.about them being out in the A-2. It just
siegel: I guess r tend to think of it as a sinilar type of use to a golfdriving range especialty in conjunction with it. rf i6 were to tark aboutspecifics, put a bunch -of _miniature gorf courses 2 miles apart, maybe thathrould be a littre bit different but we're tarking about is-a proposeilcornplex here. Not one being here and one being l mire down the ioad andanother one a mile down the road aLl in the l-i district so r think itrs a -little bit different irhen yourre looking at it as a package as iusC orr"- - -thing.
Emmings: Let me ask in that regard, retrs say that we have passed thiszoning Amendment to al1ow it as a conditional-use, if we rrere sonebowpersuaded that a rniniature- 9olf prace fit in rrith this particurar drivingrange project, could we allow it?
P3"yt . what I hear you saying- is that you feer that the driving range anirthe.niniature golf course really shourd act together and not a- stani aloneminiature gorf situation so if you wanted to p-hrase your approval in theframework that golf driving ranges subject to these conoitions. t{iniaturegolf courses as an accessory use to the golf driving range, that would be anoPtion. You couldn't. haye a- niniature golf course wittrorit'a dtriving ."rr!"- -along with it. If thatis hrhat yourre saying.
siegel: r guess to me it makes sense. The uhole idea of having a miniature-goLf course.,. especially when you think about fathers and mother-s going out
:g " 9ol{.driving range and theyrve got a prace for their kids to -sp"tia som"tlme- It's sort of a natural. Irm surprised there arenrt more con-binationsLike that around.
Ernmings: rf we could, r guess $hat r nould rike to do since r nade themotion, is 1e-ave my notion out there the rray it is and then maybe you canrnake a second notion to tark about miniature gorf as an accessory use to thedriving range. would that be alright?
Dacys yes, anil then you should rook at what a miniature golf course is. rt-does require more lights. you have the r,indrnilrs and the-peopre to hit thebalr thrggsh and so on so_ you have to corisider those visuai aspects arso.It is different than a driving range.
Erhart: r hrourd lik-e to see us go back and spend sorne more tine on this oneand define it a little bit bettei. rrn reall-y .against potting anything inthe A-2 area that visu.arJ.y is not consistent niti ettue'r i."i-a.ntiii-;; --
agricul.ture and r think you can make a driving r"ng. con"iJI"nt ,itr,asricurtural but r think.hre oughr to define wlat tle G;;;;;i;s'il"soing tobe. Buirdlings in some kind of terms. what building" ."n u"'put on tltere?rrve.seen driving, ranges sith 16 foot high fences "ia itr"n-in r coupre yearatheyrre fa11ing down.
Eurmings: Tin, donrt re retain cornplete control over that when itrs under
Planning Commission MeetingApril 22, 1987 - eage 34
our conditionar use? That to me is the rrhore reason that it should be inthere as a conditional use rather than a pernitted use because we retain aLot of cont!ol over the plan anal the randicaping and what the uuiraings aiegoing to be.
Enmings: No. when the plan comes in Dave, we lookgets buiLt and we say we only al low you to bui ld itlandscaping this way. If you show u! the plan forto build and we approve it.
Headla ! I doubt thathas to get pretty bad.
Headla: Irm referring to Timrs
Enrm ings: youtre talking aboutalways a problem yes.
Siegel: Werre talking about theconditional use pernit r ight?
you have that much control over a conditional use. It
at it before anyth i ngif you do thethe building you,re going
Headla: r think Tira made the comnent very welr in that a conititionar usepernit is very hard to police at times. i tninr a good er"rple of that isthe. horse riding farm. once they were in there and there nas a dustproblem, abd r was involved with-that to some extent, itrs hard io i"y youpeople created Bgg of the dust. ttra pretty hard to ihut th.rr down biciusethere is nothing to enforce that. once ttre-y were in ttr.i., they were inthere.
Dacy: .The-advantage.to the zoning ordinance now is that, that originalconditional use permit was approvld several yeals ago "na' ,. do a lot morerestrictions in our current ordinance and th:atrs ttr-e purpoie of thisamendment process is to estabrish those lype of conaiiions. rf you wanteilto add no netal buidlings on t!9 g-orf driving ranges or a auggesleircondition, just authorize a buirding to take tick6ts or rhi[everi. canrtexceed.800 square feet. r don,t know but you have that abirity io ."t"uri=r,conditions through this process.
Enmi-ngs:. There are t",o other thlngs. A conditionar use permit can berevoked- if they don'!t rive up to thl condition-s. ur. eryinus rras iri-aayfound that out on one occasion. That.s worked here. ro say that a !oii'driving range or-gorf course doesn't fit in the A-2, neans that rerr6bann-i.ng. all driving ranges anit that doesn.t nake sense to ne. They are aconditionar use, not as.a.pernitteit use juBt so .nybody can put on -anywhere
they $ant to, as .a conditional use.
con!ad: Tim, yo! rrouril like to see other condition6 in that other than rrhatrrerve got. Is that true?
connents.
naintaining it after it's buiIt. Thatrs
Dacy: Yes.
Zoning Orilinance amendnent noir, not the
Planning Commission HeetingAgriL 22 1 1987 - page 35
Erhart: .we could put it in the zoning ordinance so hre have driving rangesare permitted as rong as the club house is kept to a 35-40, t e can put ihat -in there if we want and one stqrage shed. you could add tirose as part ofthe zoning ordinance. on ttte other hand, r guess if alr we're arl6ring isthat the driving range it rrouLdn't nake any economic sense to put nuch-moie -than that on it. Just -a small garage and smalr clubhouse. uaibe it wouldpolice itself. The o.ther thing r wbuld be nore inclined to go-along wittr-isif we actually restricted it to TH 5 or TH 212 but r wirl noi vote ior it ifthis can be Put on TH 1gI or Lyman Blvd.. I just think thatrs dead wrong.
Headla: what are we really voting on noir?
conrail: werre voting on an ordinance change andl as stevers notion said, heis recommending that golf driving ranges bi a conditional use ln the A-2district. wetre not talking about John,s proposar norr. vferre talking _simpl.y about, is it appropriate to allow diiving ranges in Chanhassen-because right now you can,t have them.
Headra: so if rre were to say no, r{e donrt want any of this. we do what th-ordinance says as is. That does not prohibit anyone fron coming in andgetting a conditional use?
conlad: They canrt get a conditionar use because itrs prohibited right now.-There is no way to apply for a driving range right norr.
HeadIa: It is explicitedly prohibited?
Dacy: Yes. The use is not alloeed in any district..
conraal: But rrhat weire saying in this reguest is, we ui11 allow it as aconditional use but Dave' nobody can come into tonn right non andt build one.John eants to buird one. anil hera got to have us effect the zoning ordinance -right now if he,s to build anything.
Dacy: rf r can rnake one more comment before you take action on tbat notion.on the corlector and arteriar condition, it concerns ure if you do linit it -to jus-t two highways or to an arteriar because to ne that c6nstrues that youcan onry get access fron that arterial highway. we wourdntt want to crealea driveway situation off of TH s so the bLnefit of baving a colrector in - _there, in this particurar situation, is that you can havS access of thenajor street. All the streets in the rural aiea are col.leciors or arterialsanyway but r tbink $e shourd preserve the-arteriar to keep that florr ih;;;;;_traffic and not alIow addition interruption.
Erhart3 what about stating within 7gg feet of TH 5 or TH 212. Have accessfrom. .
Dacy: You are saying more of a location?
Erhart: yes exactry. what you're talking about is putting a retailDusrness out in the rural area and r think the only place you rrant to do
that is on TH 5 or TH 212.
Dacy: Then in that case r guess.r wourd recommend that you rook at amendingnumber r to location neir an atterial street with accesi to a corlector orarterial. Again, it all depends on itrs location.
Erhart: rt could be a collector but as long as it eas on TH 5 or TH 2r2.The access points can be on the collector.
Dacy: Itor L r 5g0?
is subjective because where do you draw the lines? At Sgg, L,ggA
Emmings: whatfor ingress and
if we saiil location on
egress?
an alterial with access to a collector
that be part of the conditional use insteail of the Zoning
of tbe conilitional use wiII allol, you to look at the
Siegel: wou ldn't
Ordi nance?
Dacy: Yes, the benefitindividual case.
Emmings: 'No. Hy motion is going to reave that in andr rtll telr you why.
Conrad: Leave what in?
Ernming-s: Itrs going to reave in a condition that rrill state that it will belocated on an arterial with access to a collector for ingress and egress andthe reason is, if someone comes in and our ordinance aI;;;;y says they canonly look at places arong arteriars, werre going to t.re-a Jot ress troublenith those people th,an if they cone in and iay,-okay i r"nJit over here indyour Ordinance doesnrt say I Canit
Erhart:_ But you've got pioneer Trair and TH 101 and Lyman Blvd. are allarterials.
Dacy: As the motion is on the floor now, iten 1 is rocation on an arteriarstreet as identified in Article VI, Section 25.
Conrad: Steve, do you l,ant to amend that?
Emmings: Yes. Again, r think it should be located on an arterial streetwith access to a collector for lngress and egre6s. r guess $hat ererresaying is we don't $ant them just anywhere in the agricuitural district. wewant thern on major roadways but ere donrt want their-driveway cooing ontothat maJor roadway. vfe rant then like here, on a corner whLre the!,ve gotaccess to a collector so the turn can be nadle off of TH s onto caliin aia-then get in and out on Galpin so they aren.t actually turning ott ihatarterial. They donrt have their driveway on the arteriar bui we want themlocated on major roadways rather than just scattered anywhere.
Planning Cornmission HeetingApril 22, 1987 - page 36
Planning Commission Meet i ngApr,iL 22, 1987 - page 37
Siegel: Now where are we l.tr. Chairman. We've hail a motionwe're in discussion stage and he wants to make An amendment
antl a second andto his rnotion?
Conrad: Thatrs correct
motion on your change
discussion?
so I withdraw my
Steve just to get
original second and second yourthis going. Is there anymore
Erhart noved, Headla seconded to amenil the notion to riroit the golf drivinglanges tflust be adjacent to either TH 5 0r TH 2L2 and access must be from acollector or an arteriar which reads to TH 5 or lH z!2. Erhart, Emmings andHeadla voted in favor and Siegel and Conrad opposed the amendment, andnotion carried.
Enmings moved, Conrad secondetl that the planning Comnission recommendto amend the Zoning Ordinance to allow driving ranges in the A-2district as a conditional use with the following conditions:
t.The location is limiteil to being ail jacent to TH 5 anil TH 212 anitaccess must be from a collecto! or an arterial which Ieads to TH 5 -or TH 212.
Hours of operation sball be from sunrise to sunset.
subnission of aProvision of adeguate parking areas andplan in conformance with Article VIII.landscaping
No site shaIl be locaEed within 5gg feet of single famil v
2
3
residences.
AII voted in favor except Headla rho opposed.
Headla: The rea sonsituations that canlespect to both the
being that I think there ale far too nany negatives
happenedt as compared to the upside ativantagei. Inadjacent lanalowners and the City.
Conrad: John werll bring you back on board. We,re going to open up thepubric hearing for the second stage of this which is wheie you are iskingfor a conditionar use permit. you are asking for a gorf aiiving range. -
Barbara, because we have turnedl down a niniature golf course aniTor batting _building, should John continue to pursue and prestnt his proposai in fulr?
Dacy: I think so.
Pryzmus: Basically, fiaancially r canrt even proceedt, by taking out theniniatu-re golf-and the-ind.oor activities, financially foi ne, iE rnakes itimpossibre. what you basically did was take away th.-e foundation ana irre-walls and yourre giving me the roof so r canrt enter into a contractualagreement with the City to spenil S3gOrggg.gS to basically make a beautifuldriving range. r already have the driving-range sprinklir syatens alreadyin- The tee area is arready buirt. the greenl ar-e already tone. ih;---'sandtrap is there. The classified parking lot that we oriiinarly was agreed
upon f ive.years ago is in and r need to do some minimar grading to open itup. So when you mentioned that the niniature golf, ttril is a sportscomplex. Not just a tenporary -use driving rangi. The nriniature gorf as yousee on I-494 0n the strip rrbere it,s all concrete and also in Excllsior -
where they have al.r rock, now on my develogmental plan ee aie usingapproximately, r haven'.t r.raLked and measurLd it ati off, but for tie battingcages and the miniature go1f, we,re using with parking ionewhere arouna-o---'acres. 5 to 5 acres in a commercJalLl, zoned arJa wouid urake it tinanciaifyinpossibre-, especialry r,rhen- you buiril- a buirdting that'; s"i"s to conformwitb a1l the buirdings in the industrial park. -aut geitin! u"ck to what isgoing to be nice for the c-onmunity, as Ro-ger said, ii is pirt of the g"t"""yfro the rrest. vlith the landscape architecture pl.ans thai ue have suiuritte3and this will atl be done through the cityl we will be adding anywhere from{ to I foot berms throughout the rainiaturE 9o1f. They wirr ie faintiin"a--rya.neighbor out there. r have a furl time m-anager trirla to run it. A furltime grounds keeper. He wirl be there 5 days 5 week, or l oi nhatever ittakes. The trees, we vilr basicarly have u! lighting on itt the berms withthe shurbs. There are, even though -it hasnit been maintained as anarboretum right now, roost alL the trees are planted. tu"i. niIl be anotheradditionar 100 some trees planted. r appreciate your ;;ai;g to arrow.-driving ranges but r donrt know what yo-u want me -to slgn in-. contractuaragreement to do what rrhen r can.t have basically ttro-tfrirds of what rrmproposing. The buililing itself and nhere it's iituated, trri" plan was-drawnup before we decided where the on-site septic systen ,olra !o antt with theadditionar setbacks, the buililing can be let balk LgT feet. with the bankbeing taken down 1g feet and tbe berm coming ge I feet so itri" u"irai"g--"
I::_rd 1b.^"".1-ut.lyj thatts 1,r feet in itserf. ind-the buildting i= oniy-ri'reetnrgn. No !.t goes from 1{ feet to 15.9 basicatly rit}r a flat roof. Thebuirding would be all cedar on the outside. Tlie roof iJr.lur but when rinsulate it, it wourd. be like a compco roof. There is a neighbor that livessouth on TH 101 that.is-getting.a piice together for rne no9, 6o tt. uoi:.aing-would not be a tin shed. :n this area the-re is permltted use. rn fact, r-have to get financing on the-buililing so r rrourd have to come to the ciiy-toget a building permit to build a contlract-oris yard, a nu.i.iy, a trog tar; orrrhate-ver.. I'n- going to have to do sonething with ihe properiy .na tn.--"' --
bu-ildli-ng is alr-eady there so r do have to-d6 some-ttrint'wiirr i1 anat i j""tfelt- that for the. community and the neighbors, with ai1 the landscapi-ng.- rtused to be a tree farm ao there are alreldy 3oo sorne trees, r thlnk'th;i";;the niniature gorf and the -driving range ale just a naturai. people aregoing to come out. rf you have any cbirdren, -how nany people say, what canrre do monmy or what can ne do? Therera nothing to do in chanhajjen. rhatisthe.biggest thing ever 6ince rtve been here for L3 yea!6, therels nothi;t t;do in this town. Here rre have no booze. t{e have basicaily no noise. c6ribalfs don't make any noise. we have no du6t problera. we rEarly have noproblems other than something that should be nice for the comm-unity. Thecos,t of the buililing in the central business district, r just sold-a pieceof land that this wourtl basicarly be the only prace in chinhassen that itcould go right now and that land witb the buirding that it t ourd take, wouratcost a coupre milrion dollars. Financiarly you courd never do tbat projecahere so the citizens of chanhassen wonrt trivi ttris project. rhe loclti6n.out there, being that it is on a major higtrway. rt is not conducive to
Planning Commission Meeti ngApriJ. 22, 1987 - page 38
Planning Commission MeetingApxl\ 22, 1987 - Page 39
conrad: John, r think there was some sensitivity to the miniature gorfhere. rt rrasnit voted that Hay but there w-ag diicussion. city couicil rnay _entertain that thought. - r don't knoe Just because re voted one way. rthink they will be consistent in some of the things that ue.re saying. rthink sone phirosophical things will carry out bated on rrhat we,r3 siyingbut rm sure that miniature golf is totalry out but r donrt know if y6u ianrto carry it forth. Itrs realLy up to you.
estate homes. when you have 20|QTA cars driving by every day, everyoneknows what the land, I paid S|,ggg.qq per acre for 5 years ago when the 1andwas going for a 1ot more because people arenrt buying it for farrnland. Idid buy it on a conting6ncy that I could have the driving range so by notbeing able to shohr you what...we're using pictures and dimensions fromcourses in California and Elorida and I hrant this to be the nicest and weIlthought out miniature golf course. If you've ever played mini-putt over inl.linnetonka, we measured that out and wanted to at least have the trees andshurbs and greenery that they have. lVe arenrt proposing any elephants orducks or geese or anything that's going to look bad. I rrant it to be fun.Werre going to do a lot of underground things with pVC. Little kids like
when- the baII itisappears anil then it cones up. The nini-putt, to get backto r,rha t mini-putt anil maxi-putt is, a mini-putt for kids inywhere irom 4 or5 years o1d up to 9 or I0. You take them to a real tought niniature golfcourse and they get very discouraged. Everybody likes to do gooil so itrrould be a real interesting little course but their ball always rinds up ina good spot so they can score good but it ron,t be interesting enough foryour 1I, L2, 13 and your adults so the taaxi-putt would be that. I'm trying _to get something for the whole famity. The batting cages, I don't know ifany of you have ever had children in Little League but the rrorse thing thatcan happen is when your 1itt1e guy strikes out trrice in a row and he conesback crying. when I was in the Jaycees we bought one batting nachine forthe CAA but there just isn't enough time for all tbe littIe ktds to use thatone batting machine. The building itself sould be basically not seen fromthe highway. Right now, in a farm zoned area, you can builil basical.Iywhatever you want for a hog farm, dairy farm, rrhatever. I want to have alot.nicer building than that. Itts going to be totally screened but bytaking away, like I say, the foundation. I appreciate your motion to ;IIowthe driving range.
Dacy: Given their action, the next item on the agendta is literalLy aconditional use permit for a driving range. you have a couple of bptions.
You can withdraw that apprication right now so they would not carry out thereview of the driving range and the natter sould just go on to Council todetermine the ordinance amendment but if they do a1low the driving range andeverything erse, it wirr have to come back anil go through the plan review.So, do you want them to carry.out the review just for the driving range orare you withdrawing your application at this point?
Pryzmus: r want the driving range but olat -rrl saying is r can.t rearlyenter into any contracts if r only have the driving ringe. r appreciatiyour motion for the driving range.
Planning Commission Meet i ngApxiL 22 1 f987 - page 40
Pryzmus: I want to carly it forward.
Dacy: What we could. do _is, this is going to the Council on Uay 4th, you-could come back to the planning comnission on May l3th for permit review ifitis approved. I know you havL sone timing ,.stiiclions.- -'
Pryzmus: That is to enter into anotber agreement so they have the site planand other additional uses. Okay.
Dacy: I would have to come. back andt. you probably nouldnrt get approvalbefore June 1st. rt ,ould be more tiie ii they 6on,t i.ui.i it.
Pryznus: But they can'it review it if you are going to leave tbe notionstanding just for driving.TaDge_. - r:t,i just tike it" aiiuing range aDd li1lhave to spend another nonth. r donrt kn-ow what erse to do because you,venade the motion and that's your feelings so r donrt have in option.
Conrad: fi.e1I, y9u probably do. I guess Barb is just givingadvice. What did you two decide?
9a9yi I think you are asking us to go aheail and review justdlriving range.
Siegel: you stil.I want it to go before Council in total?
Pryzmus: r want it to go before council in total because if r alonrt...
Dacy: okay, then the conditionar use permit and the wetland AlterationPerni.t, they will make a motion to table that pending councir final actionon the Ordinance amendment.
Pryzmus: Letts do the ir,etland. we can do the rretlands now because thatrspart of'the driving lange. That has nothing to do uith ihe miniatur. go1i.
Dacy: So you are saying to go aheait sith the driving range?
Pryznus: Yes.
Conrad: Okay, this is a public hearing. Any comments?
siegel moved, Erhart seconded to crose public hearing. A1l voted in favorand notion carried.
Enmings: one thing that r notice that theEe i-s ln the landscaping it saysexisting ash, 2 to 2 L/2 inches in dianeter and points to th.t;ho1t r"r'g-row of trees. tf,hen r drove by there tonlght, r dldn,t aee any trees it itt.
Dacy:- There are trees out thele. There are a nunber of trees out there asJohn has mentioned. They are snall.
Ettmings: 2 L/2 Lnehes in diameter?
you some
the go 1f
Planning Commission MeetingApril 22, t9B7 - page 41
Dacy: Some are but not all.
And does it go across tbe whole property the way it,s portrayed onEmm i ng s:
this?
Dacy: I trsdidn't have
along TH 5, yes. Some, I think may be dead. A lot of themleaves on them as of yesterday.
Bnmings: Put in a condition that they have to be living trees?
Dacy: They are identifying existing condlitions. The 6pecific thing thatthe commission should address is the appropriateness of the lighting anil the-fencing proposals. Those are some of the ahings that staff rina of-ftaggealogt. with just the driving range, there was a ta1ler Iighting standard-Inthe southwest corner. your previous motion was for the operalion of thedriving range from sunrise to sunset so in ury nind that llghting schemefalls out and you need to address that one way or the othei.
Headla: What does he need the lighting for? If you donrt give him lights,that kind of insures that it doesn,t go past sunset.
Dacy! I realize that. I was just saying tbat I wantedt to make sure thatthe Connission was comfortable with that.
Enmings: Is there any
l ights?
reason they have the lights? That you rrould eant the -
Pryzmus: As you know, there is a group home west of me. Irm not sayinq'anything bad about group homes but the contractorrs yard, the resideits-over-here, everyone in the farm community has security tights and a person courdget i.n and raise all kinds of heck with the putting green or whitever and rfeer ttrat r need sone security rnaintenance out there. lfith the puttingg:een being in the southwest corner, that will give ne the securify aowithere. r also had security on the front of the indoor activity buildling butI nouldnrt propose any more lighting than the average farn has.
Enmings: How tarr is that tight? Hor{ high above the ground is that }ightitself?
Pryzmus: I donrt know what NSp puts in.
Erroings: It's just one of those standard lights?
Pryzmus: rtts a standaril J.ight that rvould be on a farE. rhe other thing, rguess r cut it short when the public hearing rras cLosed but as far as th5'fencing, there will be the fencing around t6e perineter of it wirr ue irriEame as princeis fencing doern the street. rt tilI be the black ferrcing andthe fencing on the eest and across the north border will be tne rencin6 - -
thatrs out there. rt is a silver fence but it ruilr all be 6 f;et li; il'.There won't be any neeil to protect any roads or anything. The driviig -will
be hitting to the north.
Planning Commission MeetingApril 221 1987 - page 42
tnmings: Barbara, I see one 1ight. Are there more?
Dacy: Yes, the 1i9ht in the southwest corner is the only one th
ltroyn o1 the plan ourside of the putting area. The niniiture golights but if rhe niniature golf Lourse- is not there, ah;;-lh.=.out. Other than those, that eras the only 1i9ht, coriect?
Pryzmuss We have lighting on the path underneath the trees.
Dacy: For the tee area.
Pryzmus: This is a path in back of the tee area.
Dacy: Yourre saying these are 1g feet in treight?
Pryzmus: Yes, those a-re. Ig_feet in height. They sourd be a down Iight. rtsas to 1i9ht the path but if we're not ,oing to Be open...
Dacy: Along the tee area they are proposing a series of lg foot J.igbtsthere.
Pryzmus: 'rn back of the tee area there is a path. r put trees every 39feet-and then_ they are diagonalry across from one "notir"i ina'tu. rislrtiwoulil be in the tree area.
D3cy: But again, if they condition from sunrise to sunset and they are notthere for security reasons.
Headla: where would that 6 foot fence be?
Pryzmus: A 6 foot fence rdould surroundl the whole propelty.
Headla: Everytine you drive by TH 5 you see a big black fence.
Pryznus: yes, it wour.d be about the satne as the arboretun fence onry itsourd be black. rt wourd be the aame as princerE rence aown half a iile.
Headla: Have you people seen that fence? Go take a look at it.
Pryzmus: rf you donrt like brack fencer. r don.t have- to put it. r thoughtnaybe you would like it because it was the aame aa princeis.
conrad: rn trying to unalerstand staffrs analysis of the wetland. rn carv,sreport, are those conditions bundled in to the staff recoornend ationsi
Dacy: Yes.
conradl: And Gary, basically you have a lot of concerns Hith the area froo atretlands standpoint ?ld sgle other- things. wele you! conditions as sti-tla, -
were they h,orded so that if we decideil to alrow fitting in the wetrands, --'
these things have to be done? r didnrt see a statenent that saia trrai.-' r
at
Lf
you had
courselights f all
Planning Commission MeetingApxil 22, 1987 - page 43
sav, Rockwellrs comments saying that tbe wetlands shouldn,t be fiIIed in.That there are some senstive areas and whatever. How do I interpret your
comments at the end on the attachment?
warren: r admit it got a little confusing as we got into it. rn trying to -interpret our wetlands Ordinance, that was part of the thrust that I wairesponding to some of the deficiencies thaC the submittal has in relation tothe wetlands ordinance. r guess the final bottom rine of my comnents wourd -be that if you go ahead that the recomnenilations that I have shown should beenforced as far as sedimentation basin and then some of these things. Iguess in genera]. that's nhere I was coming from.
Conrad: In brief, I'm not sure that Irve seen a hardsbip or a leal leasonto allow the filling in of the eetlands. I rroulil have a tough tirne going
along $rith. I donrt think the measures pointed out are necessary. I prefer-to keep the wetlands operating. It appears from Rockieell,rs connents, Isasn't sure about the trade-offs that she ras nentioning. I uas having atough time interpretting that.
Dacy: When re r.rent out to inspect the site, as you knorr, the area has beencultivated. What she calle back and said vras that itrs not good fo! habitatpurposes. However, it is performing sone type of function for storm rraterrun-off to Bluff Creek. AI1 thatrs out there noh, are the regrasses and soon. It is not Protected by the DNR because of their particular restrictionson vegetation and so on. What she said ras that they have looked at thesituation where, as in the Centex case, if you alter one part of thewetland, if you improve another part of it, they wi]t accept that. In thiscase, the applicant has no access to other property. He doesnrt oun anyother property that contains additional wetlands a!ea. He eoul.d have togain that easement right ovet to do that. If you deny the setlandsalteration permit, you rrould in effect deny use of the property as a drivingrange.
conrad: There are two issues he!e. As a conditionar use pernit for thegolf driving range. There is also a rretrands alteration permit that we have-to respond to also. As r said, basedl on the ordinance for the lretlandsalteration permit, we havenrt solved the problem. There hasnit been atrade. Itrs armost impossibre to 6o1ve the problen with the retrand aniltherefore, f guess t rrould have a tough time. I donrt see how he cannaintain the ordinance and the intent of the ordinance with the currentProPosal. Is there a notion?
siegel: Barbala, donrt your recoromenda t i ons make the wetrandts peEmitapplicable to the eetland ordinance?
Dacy3 yes. Thatr6 true. However, because we are unsure about. what wouldhappen to the ordinance amendment in the first case, we really didnrtspecify a notion as vre do in other cases \rt Gary correct me, yourconditions are directed toward gaining additional inforuration lnilrecommending a Permit sedimentation basin there if alteration rras allowed.
PlanningApril 22 1
Corunission l.leet i ng1987 - page 44
Warren: Rigltt.
Siegel: And some of cary,sproject. Not just the g;tf
Warren: Hy recommendations
Siegel: you had something
Warlen: That r s correct.
Siegel: In lieu of that,set by S ta ff?
recommendations were contingent on tbe totaldriving range right? -
are based on the total project.
about run-off from the building.
does that make any change in your recommendations
Dacy: As far as the drainage issue, it earea, that calculation from the drainaoeplan and so on still remains intact. iffapptied for a reconnenilation of approvaisome type of preference for the liqhtinoidentify the hours of operation if -you ir
I i rD ina tes ailditional hard roofbut I think the overall drainageof these conditions could beexcept for nunber I. If you havescheme and you should proLablye going to reco,mend approvall
Siegel: I thought we already did that with the previous motion?
Dacy: yes, you did but r guess r rrould prefer that you clalify it in thisaPPlication -"-t rYr e'e'
Ennings: rf someone rrere to vote to deny the rretrand arteration permituould it make the conditional use permit rnoote
Dacy: yes.
Emmings moved, Erbart secondeil that the Planning comrnission recomrnend deniarof the application for the vretlanar Alteration pirrii.--eii voted in favorexcept Siegel and motion carried.
siegel: -r thought r rras assureir that staff sourd ensure sith theirrecommendations to satisfy the alteration permit.
conrad: you can rninimize the irnpact on the eetland but the ordinance says.
sieger: rn essence, ue are denylng the property ouner any use of his land.
conrad: No. For a gorf driving range because he agparently neeats noreP!oPerty.
siegel: r fair to see the effect- of a gorf driving range on a piece of bareland to ne is less inpact on it than an! other typ6 of ise.--
Emmings: He has to fitr in the oetrand' f,o use it as a gorf driving range.
Planning Commission MeetingApril 22, 1987 - page 45
Pryzmus: That piece of land has been farmed fot lgg years. It wasbornesteaded and last year with the wettest year rre ever had, it was downtwice.in the spring and in the fall. There has never been any rraterstanding there and so, when you reach your ordinance about what is a class A_wetland or what is a protected rdetrand, it,s anything that is going to haveany hrater if there is a 109 year rain. Basically, rnost of your:com-munitiesare buirt to class A wetrands according to that ordinance !o r don't wantyou -to get real carried away hrith thinking that rrn fi11in9 in a take. rt,s-a piece of farmland. Itrs low and itis advantageous to me to put in acouple feet of fill so my ballpicker, rrhen itrs raining, wonrt squeeze theballs into the ground. There isn,t going to be any chlnge. Theie isn'tgoing to be any buirdings close to the creek. The water irirl stitt ftowvery smoothly. Itrs going to be nothing but mowed grass and so I thinksometin-es you're getting a little carried away with what lrn doing in there.The wetlands seems to throw the trigger so address that. rt is a farm. rt -always has been a farrn. There are no cattails. Tbere has never beenstanding vrater.there ever. r drove through there the other day with mypick-up. Now, it's been a dry spring. f.alt spring it was the rettestspring we've had for years so itrs not wetlandl so r want peoile to realizethat.
WETLAND ALTERA?ION PERMI T TO INSTALL THE LAKE ANN INTERCEPTOR AND tAKE
V I RG I N IA FORC EMA I N IN AND NEAR CLASS A AND CLASS B WETLANDS AL dM fEil
ALIGNMENT RUNN I N-SOUT HEASTERLY FROM TH 41 TO TH 5, THROUGH
PRAIRIE, ME
tEEE'-naffiNBUSINESS PARK, NOR TH OF LAKE SUSAN AND INTO EDEN TROPOL I TANCONTROL C OMMISSION, APPL I CANT.
Public Present:
Leander Kerber 1620 Arboretum Blvd.
Barbara Dacy presented the staff report on this item.
Leander Kerber: I have concern rrith it because itis going to go rightacross the south end of rny property on TH 5. r have [rre fropeity b6tweenthe city park anil the nursery. lty question is.. as long i" ii," iig-rugging _around, why don't they cross the higbway dorrn the xoad soT feet to- rr000feet and stay off of ny property. inother question is, a. i going t1-beassessed for that now.or rrhen am r supposed to pay for it or irn r-9oing tohave to pay? If so, why?
9:gy: The interceptor at this tirne is not proposed to be asseased duringthis year and in 1987. The Metroporitan coincit witt noi "iio, us or allor -property oerners in that oerner to hook up into that interceptor untir afterthe year 2ggg so there are no assessments at this tiroe.
sieger: r stilr disagree. I think staff came up with recommendations that -the applicant courd adhere to and meet tbe use of the land for his purpose.
LAKES-
WASE
Planning Commission Heeting
September 2], 19BA - page 30
_(
Batzli:
Enmings:
Batzli:
turning
I know we did.
The City Council didntt but we did.
I know but there was no residence atit down because the residences lrasn. t alI . We never discussedlocated there.
PUBLIC HEARI NG:
GOLF DRIVING RANGE AND MINIATURE GOLE COURSE OPERATION, PROPERTTA-2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE AND TOCATED AT COUNTY ROAD 1I? AND HWY.
PRYZMUS.
ZONED
5, JOHN
A' zoNrNG ORDINANCE AMETIDMENT To CHAPTER 20, ARTTCLE rv, DrvrsloN 3,
REGARDING STANDARDS FOR GOLE DRIVING RANGES WITH OR WITHOUT MINIA?UREGOLF couRsEs ro PRovIDE REGULATION oF srcNAGE, To pRovrDE REGULATIoNSAS TO LIGHT STANDARDS AND TO ESTABLISH HOURS OF OPERATION BEYOND
SUNSET.
B CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT AMENDMENT
HOURS OF OPERATION BEYOND SUNSET
SlGN.
INSTALL LIGHT STANDARDS , EXTEND
PERMITTING ?HE INSTI,ALLATION OF A
(Publ ic Present :
Name
TO
AND
John
l.1i ke
Jo hn
Pryzmus
Klingelhutz
Hennes sy
fuacr+r-i{f * 4
!
Address
Appl i cant
Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report.
Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order.
John Pryzmus: The hours of operation obviously wirl be determined as theseason goes. Right now I close at EzAg at night. The season wiII beending here in another month so we're closed for 6 months approximatery...The sign that I put up was the sane sign that was approved. A 1.2 x g
plywood sign... The video games, the City Council I guess rre were tryingto accomodate children so... Other than that, I didnat think originally-the Council had...on trees anil berming. Now. I thlnk we,ve added 15more...on the site right now. Light atandards, basically there isn,tanything that the Council said...light standards of a baseball fi91d orsomething like that... It does help. Irve kept the lighting at a minimumso I can extend my hours. Vlhen it starts getting dark and people canrt...trro closest competitors of rnine are 7 Hi and Excelsior. Excelsior. . .days
and weekends. The guy at 7 Hi...
John Hennessy: I live across the street from this thing. So far he hasrun a pretty good operation. ...the basic auidelines of the basic... I
Planning Commission Meeting
September 21, 1988 - page 3I
9ras not
opposed
in favor ofto it. . .
this at all at the beginning... I was vehemently
Olsen: Condition numberno light standards on thesunrise to sunset.
9 of the conditional use permit, there shalllight premises. Hours of operation shall be
be
a problem hrith thenot have lighting?
Olsen: That hours sbould be from sunrise to sunset.
and put up liqhts out there?Ennings: And I understand he went ahead
(Olsen: Yes.
Ernmings: As far as the hours of operation are concerned, r uDderstandyourve been given sunrise to sunset, is that correct?
Olsen: Yes.
Enmings: And has he abided by that?
Olsen: No.
Ennings: It says no
language there? lfa s
Olsen: No...
light standards. Do we havethe intention that he should
Emmings: Hers been using his Iights tosomething tbat sounded Iike, regardingconflicted with what we have here. H;allowed to have a sign?
stay open later. Hethe sign that sounds Isaid he was allowed a
just saidike itsign. t{as he_
Emmings: r have trouble looking at this, just like concerns of fairness,making ne want to help somebody rike stockdal,e who .or"" iiong. r havetroubre looking at this objectively because everytime llr.-iiyr."" comes iD_here, heis arready done hrhat hers asking us to d-o. as i ."cirr, he askedus for a $retrand arteration permit aftei he'd been tord uy ir,"-ii{i to"--stop f il.ling in the wetland. we lround up denying that. i,.- not sure rcan.be rear objective about rooking at this pioposal. Just orr ttre-top, -
::I]"?.-:9.!::::ll:"tive as r can, r donrt lee-any.""ion-to chanee ii'trom sunrise to sunset. Hers talking about his competitors at the ?_Hiand Excersior but neither of those places are locatld in the A-2 district -and r don'it think we can lose sight of the fact tbat ttris ii going on-in-
J :.. - --..
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Mike Klingelhutz: I rras planning on...itis kind of pretty.
Batzri moved, Headla seconded to close the public hearing. Alr voted infavor and the motion carried. The public trearing was closed.
Ennings: _ I just want to ask a few clarifying things here. when he gothis conditionar use permit from the city Eouncir, iid it in fact proiiuit -from having Iightinq?
(.
-(the A-2 district. 7-Hi is on a commercial corner and Excetsior is next toa McDonalds and next to a car .wash. Thatrs not realry analogous. Butagain, trying to be a'rittle objective about that whei we traie neigrruorsout here, a couple of them, who said it,s not realty offensive. 6. goi.letter from Art partridge tbat doesn,t agree with thit but that may b6 apersonal point of view. r donrt see any reason to change the hour-s.sunrise to sunset seems to be good enough and that may 6ri.inate his needfor lighting. As far as the sign goes, if hers going'to have his businessout there, it seems to ne and r-wi;h Tim uere heie t5 comrnent on this, butI. wouldnrt_have any probletn erith bim lraving a sign except again, werre inthe A-2 and r don'.t knoe, if rre rrant to stait put[ing up- sigis out there.The sign ordinance again is one of those ordiiances-thlt i5 neant to rerestrictive and it's not permitted in the A-2. As far as the video ganesgo, that seems to me to be a reasonabre accessory use to a minature {oii.f don't have any teaL problen with the lirnitatioirs that ther've prop5sedhere.
Ellson: Already saying that it has been approved, starting from there,r know that there was an awful lot of hub bub in the past iboot err"nallowing.-.but r think miniature golf is a good addition from thestandpoint, $re voted down a community centei. There really isnrt a rot ofplaces for younger peopre to go. They,re not old enough t6 arinx. ih;y--cantt go to certain places. Tbey end up hanging aroun6 by the McDonaldsor theyrre accused of rathere lou s€€ these lial hanging iround differentpraces and r think lrhen-r rras this age, r prayed the-rniiiature gorf arlthe time. until 11:00 during high sahoot ind-rhat have you. rtrs a.nicesafe place to be...to places they could be. r think oncE you say you're aminiatule go).f course, it almost comes to reason that niniiture gottcourse stays open late and has those younger kids at it and you 6ffer themvideo games and those. are your major iust5mers. The faci irrit we alreadysaid you can have miniature golf bere r think is an indication to do arlof that so I vrould agree that those hours are good. I would like !o seethose good outlets for younger people to have in extra night. r can seethe video ganes and the like as weIl.
Batzli: I'm going to play devil's advocate. r think that that rrould havebeen srrell had we not said that theyrve got to be right next to TH 212 otTH 5 and r donrt know as. though r.want ny kid hanging out by the highwayat-1L:09 at night. I think the video games do atlract them to that: Ithi.nk that's.exactly right but r think-rre created you,ve got to be in atraffic corridor to have one of theEe things- and n6w we,r! going to tryand .encourage younger kids to go. r didn't know that that ias [.ne iniiia].intent so much as it was going to. be sonetbing where the littre kids goplay miniature golf rrhile dad takis his swingi. Not to be sexist but-Ithought that uas the original intent rather than ue.re going to create ahaven for kids rate at night so r have . hard tine nith that. r know whatyourre trying to say. and I uould agree e{cept for that I donrt thinkthatrs what we were initial.ly trying to ireate with this type of asituation. r think they do need a sign of some kind. r again have a realtough time Lrith this being objective Lecause r kind of echo the sentlmentsof steve. It does seeo like $hat happens is that he does it and then hecomes in wheD rre find out that he does it and says, oh, by the rray, can Ihave that? That,s kind of irritating. I would Lasicaityl other ihan
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Planning Commission Heet i ngSeptember 21, 19BB - page 32
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allowing the small sign, not uant to change anythi ng .
signing allowed in the A-2 districtWildermuth: Jo Ann,
now? No s i gna ge?
there isn't any
Olsen: Not for the advertising of a business.
wildermuth: r wonder if the city council was thinking when they approvedthis permit and there was no provision for a sign. r do think ltral- ttreordinance needs some modification for some kind of a sign. rf we're going_to arlow commercial businesses in A-2 districts, tbereri got to be soriekind of provision for a sign. r don'|t think operating lafe into the nightis appropriate. we've either got to look at rlzoning-or restrict the ritehours of.operation of the business. As far as video-games are concelned, -r guess if r had an objection there, if the carver cor:nty police brottershows some solt of problem, I guess I donrt have a feeling-one rray or theother.
HeadIa: John,
John Pryzmus:
Headla: And a
John Pryzmus:
Headla: What
have a Dell out there?
do.
tank, sewer systen?
do you
Yes, I
sept r c
(Yes .
do you size that for? 2 people or 2g people?
Joh!. Pryzmus: what the city councir has done at this point $ras incrude aholding tank and we have a contract to have it pumped. so rre have a nenand nomenr s bathroom and then there's a gauge on il ana they punp it. The-welr is just Like a 4 inch werr. .lust to comtaenr on the tnin! aloutdanger, we are putting a fence up so there wirl be a 6 foot and 4 footfence. Kids h,on't be able to gel onto the highway. They wi).l have to go -through tl!: bpilgilg to get anywhere in this Eeveiopment and back outthrough this building to get out of there.
Planning Commission Meeting
September 2L, lg9g - page 33
Headla: we armost rerigiously watch businesses on TH 5 and no retairingand even though a weII and septic system, I think we're in like a realgray area. r don't think ne should have even arlowed that. r donrt thinkyou want, we ought to have |ights. r donit think itrs appropriate ioithat area. r think it should be sunrise to sunset. rhe-iideo games, youknow John, you and I talked about it when you rrere here before and theintent was to provide, r donrt want to say-rninimal uut oniy-an adequatenumber to, if a kid came over with his dad, he,d play via-6 games irrirehis dad swung but that'|s aIr.. rt wasn.t to attraat inybotty in to pi"i-video games. r'd like to see us stay at. that. put on a rimit to -the-
number of games. r'm certainly not the 6ne to determine that rirnii.-llaybe-John has got some good input oo the variety but r ttrink ere ought to "ii!",that there shourd be a paraneter that it's onry for to accomo6ate thecustomer's childrer while they're there at the gorf. r do like thepondscaping. It is very good. That.s all I have.
t
Planning Comm j. ss i on l,teeting
September 21, 1988 - page 34
John -Pryzmus: If you want me to comment on the video games. Thatbuilding is-just a.little over g0A square feet so you tet a pop machineand the candy machines and change maChines, you cai,t let over g or 9nachines in the place so it never courd become an arcade. A video arcadetype of place...which neans there are some top video games but...4g ot sgkids coming out to hang out, te just could n , t- accomodi te them. vterrouldnrt. I have a tnanager and Lasically gearing it towards theprofessionar, serious golfer. The rniniaiuie gori course were designed andbuilt tough. ...one siarr course for Little [ias. r think we're frying---to accomodate ttte whole faroily. rt,s not that big a buirding so an arcidepart of it won't fit.
conrad: My brief comments are veEy in sync with what rrve heard. Basedon the intent of the agricultural area and what rrer re trying to do in theA-2 district, r think some things are not in sync with wiai-is here and ithink lighting standards and late night operation are simpiy not in syncwith what we're trying to do in the i-z aiea. r trrink "iin'in"t.rrationis inportant but r think what I'd like to do there is tal( about passivesignage ratner than active signage. Again, if we're in dayright 'nouisr-if
werre operating in the daytine, I think we can have signag. tt"t is notneon signage, that rnay fit in character with the area.- r-think if wear10w the business to be there, r think it,s appropriate to ret themadvertise that theyrre there. There,s no reasoi wl shourd prohibit thatbut I also think because of the agricurturar area, the sitn'has to beconsistent with that area itserf .rhich means i{e restrict ieon andaggressive -flashing, hre always restrict flashing but we may erant todictate a few more restrictions in terms of sigiage. Howeier, I dobelieve itrs appropriate for a business that w;,v; allowed to go in.Never been an advocate of video games out there so r have a toigh timerecorr-inend i ng a number on that. i trrinr the purpose on that and the iia"onthat we felt that it could possibly 90 out therl was sirnply using the landas it rras and keeping some of the iharacter of the land it-the sime time.n not sure video games is in sync with my understanding of that. rthink Jo Ann, rrhat you presented us tonight is a zoning 6rdinanceamendment but basically as r read that, it.s an updated zoning ordinancefor the conditional use. yourve basically worked- in the currentconditions Lrith the recomnended conditions, or Barbara has. rrn not sureadminstratively hor., to handle this. I think rre have to go through oneitem at a time and decide whethe! re feer it shourd be iicorporafed intothe anendment and more than likely r donrt see, if anybody agrees with me,our.signage comments, I don't see us approving tnis tonight. I see staffcoming back with a recommendation if we believe signager-or anything: iiue rrant lighting I think there has to be standards for lighting.
wildermuth: There should be a lighting standard and r think we ought toaddress this issue that...it.s an accessory business function.
it changes dlpending upon whether you allowllow 1i9ht, let.s say you allow the drivingfrom sunrise to sunset but you allow thehen I think we do get a kids hang-out more.
Batzli: I think in essence
1i9htin9. Because if you a
range can only be operatedminiature golf to be lit, t
Although it was an accessory use during the day, perhaps it becomes thedominant use at night. r think that's an issuE trrat his to be addr.essed
-(
r
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 21, 1988 - page 35
before we tap all the other ones. whether we're trying to pronote that.
Conrad: Promote what?
Batzli: Ni g htt ime use.
Conrad: By ag ree i ngtell us right?
with allowing nighttime 1ightin9, youtre going to
Couad : We don't know.
Emmings: To take rrhat Brian is saying one step further, he split them inha1f. Are we talking about lighting for a driving range and are $etalking about lighting for the miniature golf. The tniniature 9oIf,originally we only approved that as an accessory use to the driving rangewhich sas supposed to be the primary use.
Batzli: Therers a lot to talk about here.
Batz1i: well, yes and no. Are wedriving range or for the miniature
allowing nighttine lighting for thegolf course?
be as routine as going
the various issues? Whichto do.
Conrad: Letrs talk about it. Do we eant tothrough these and give direction to staff on
ones to pursue. I think thatrs what we have
t Conrad: But do you want lighting standards so you can operate theoperation in the dark for miniature golf and tha driving range?
Ennrings: Are you talking about tabling this?
Conlad 3 I think rde have to table it because itrs celtainly not in theform that I feel comfortable with if we t ere to send anything along unless
ere reject it a1.1. But I think tberers sorne valid things that $e shouldlook at. In terms of 1ighting, we,1l go through the three items thatrrei re talking about, in terms of lighting, that do we rrant to do in ternsof lighting? In the agricu!.tural area for this type of a use, are wecomfortabre with the daytirne hours or do we feel that rre shourd al.low. andwhatrs permitted based on the conditionar use permit is the driving rangeand.the miniature golf. Do $e uant it to occur at night, anil I.m notagainst $hat Annette says, having recreational opportunities here becauser think we then to zone those things out of town-ind rrm not against-itrai.yet on the other hand, looking at the ordinance, and looking at thepurpose of the A-2 district, what do you think? IrlI just go arounil .
Emnrings: Sunrise to sunset.
ElIson: LL:. Sg .
Batzri: I coul.d a little bit after sunset but not to 1r:oo. you can fisha half hour after sunset.
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Planning Commission l,leeting
September 21, 1989 - eage 36
Batzli: Irm torn because I have gone toenjoyed it irunensely but from a pianningalong a highway, I dori't know if - I r.rant
Enmings: you have to declare yourself.
Batzli: Sunrise to sunset.
Wildermuth: Sunrise to sunset.
Headla: Sunrise to sunset.
Conrad: I'm comfortable with thatnighttime use.
One declarative sentence.
too. So hrhat we're saying is no
driving rang esperspective init at night.
at night and f tve
the A-2 district
Olsen: What we have, we have the proposed amend,ents to the zoningordinance ol p?ge 4, (b) would remiin as it is originalfy. -fne hours ofoperation sha]I be from sunrise to sunset. Do you rdant io just go throughthese? vtould that be easier to 90 through each one of thesll
Enmings:' (a) already exists right?
OIsen: Right.
&nmings: !{erre not ta}king about changing (a)
Olsen: And (c) is the same. (d) would be the same. (e), (f) and (9) aretbe ones that you would need some discussion on.
conrad: so now werre getting to reguest number 2. rnstallation of thesign. Steve, do you agree with signage in this area?
Enmings: r like very much what you said about not il.ruoinated signs.some sign that $rourd be visibre in the daytime and would be not visible atnight.
conrad: Annette, you can.t agree with steve. you canlt because you wantto operate at night so you would have to lean...
Ellson: You took array my night so...
Conrad: Yourve got to be consistent here.
Ellson: Ies, I.d like to see a sign...
Couad: So sone kind of sign.
Batzli: Sma 1I sign.
Wildermuth.: I'd like a srnall sign.
Headla: ...vrerve got to do signage.
-(-
(Conrad: I guess on that one, Jo Ann I think you should bring back to us a -
recor,nendation on what kind of.signage would be appropriate out there.lierre not trying to hide, it was approved to go in and it is a big areabut r.re don't want it illuminated. We,re not trying to scare the neighbors -but we have to inform people that itrs there. Video games, installationof video games. Dave, we,re going to start at your end. Do you thinkthey should be allowed and if so, I think based on City Council'sdirective and Jo Ann, does City Council like the video games?
Olsen: I think they liked them.
Conrad: So based on what they feel , werre being real arbitrary here. Idonft know if 2 or 5 or 8, I donrt have a clue $rhat the right number isand I hate to get into games when you start dictating some of that stuff.Is there a numbe! that you want to hange your hat on and say thisdefinitely is a secondaly use to the primary purpose of the site? Isthere something that you feel good about?
(
Headla: No, f'm not that familiar with video games to hang a number on.
._:._\Sg video games but if youtve just got a coin machine, yes that,sdifferent. I think we should send a signal lre've got to limit tbe numberand 1et that number be negotiated beti{een the staff and Jobn. But withthe clear intent, itrs a passive situation for peopre to entertain whiresome of those other things... pretty soon werve got another lr1gg squarefoot building with more video games in it.
Conrad: Do you think the building, Iike John said,to dictate what he can put in it. Is that a bette!City Council al-lowed an 809 foot buililing.
Wildermuth: The City Council could allow a 5,ggT
Headla: Yes, I'd like to see the number of games
knovr, the next thing may have another building.
Iiildermuth: I thiDk we ougbt to have anvideo games and that ordinance should be
number of video games per sguare foot...
ordinance reguiring licensing ofa parameter or index of the
sPots?
it should be an accessoly use.
the
way
going
The
bui Id ingof doing
square foot
set because
bui Idin9.
I don I t
Batzli: I think 10 is a great number. seriousry, r never considered thatprior to 10 seconds ago. r think thatrs probably a pretty good idea. rnthe meantime, I think in this instance, I think fg ii a fiiify gooanumber. Actually, it might depend more so on the number of spo[s you havefor people using the.driving range than square footage of the bui.lEing.rt seems to me that it wourd be rDore appropriate to link it to that. 1gnight be a good number.
Conrad: What do you think Brian?
Headla: How about linking it to par ki ng
I thinkLBatzli:. Perhaps parking spots.
Planning Commission Meeting
September 21, 1988 -. page 37
isit?
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Wildermuth:
fine.
BatzIi: Iuse too.
(
think i.t should be clear that itts installed as an accessory
Conrad: what do we do in Chanhassen?
Eunings: Did you say what you thought about video games?
Ol sen: I don't
PubIic Safety. I
Conrad: The first timespecifically in terms of
1i ke arbitrary numbers .
contractor I s yard .
Emmings: We do it aII the time.
think we have a Iicense for games.
know we just passed a solicitor's I could . check with
ord inance .
I don I t
through I sure ilid. I don,t like then butnumbers, I don't care. It.s arbitrary.Itis almost like the I mile radius foi a
conrad: r think tying it to hours of operation is rear valid but r thinkwe definitery want to make it a secondary use to the site hrhich fs rearimportant. I guess Jo Ann what I,d like-.us to Oo is;;;;;;, come backand talk about the benefits of licensing. rf we need that and maybesomehow give us a way to say, a l,ay to say 19 is a nunber or 100 is aDumber but for us to pick out something. Irm comfortable with thebuilding size' to terl you truth, limiis it but r don,t think evelybody '
else here is so we need some pJ.anning input to tel1 us hohr to Oo iE.Based on square footage. Based on parking stalrs but very definiteJ.y
Planning Commission Meeti ngSeptember 21 , Lggg - eage :A
It should definitely be Low because youire outside the UUSA
Ellson: I{hat number.did. they decide on, l,0? 10 or under sounds fine tome. -According to this,. it says one titne the city defined in amuse*entarcade as having nore than 5. rt a.;;a; rike iti".n ii""a" if you have6. If you don't hrant it be an arcade, than it gets back t;5. I don,tmind it being there. The nu'ber a;;;;'i realry-mare a uit-aear to me...
Emrnings: The nurnber obviousry is arbitrary and if rg makes peopre happy,it wourd make me happv too. i trrint< on"-riy a;;;;;r;-ii.t tni" srays anaccessory use is the hours that the buildin! can be op.n -roora be the sameas the driving range. you can't have that iuirding oi.n inJ tn" arivint -
range not open.
Headla: That,s a good point.
Conrad: You vrant to come up with an ordinance to 1icense and hrhatr s thepurpose of doing that? what does that do for us?
!{ildermuth: It ...concentration so thereby you control ...
Conrad: Is that conunon to do? Ale you naking this up?
wildermuth: r know of other cities that have ricensing requirements fordoing tha t. .
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Planning Comnission Meeting
September 21, 1988 - page 39
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Enmings moved, wildermuth seconded that the pranning commission tabte both -the Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Chapter 20, Article IV, Division 3 andthe conditional use Permit Amendment untir staff can come back with moreinformation. AtI voted in favor and the motion carried.
based
about
Wi ldernuth :
would al lowin.
on a secondary use supportive
those three. That means that
the prime use. Okay, we've talkedshould table this item.
to
!re
Conrad: Itrs being
approaching it froma look at. . .
werre
$e take
in there somei{here thatought to leave the lights
done in response to what be's already done anda forget about him f,o! the time being. Should
BatzIi:
driving
course?
The nex t
range and
issue is,
they want
There should probably bea nighttime operation so
some roon
we probably
what if werre allowing a golf course with ato put up some }ights? If itrs a private
Emnings:
Bat 21i :
?hat's
It t s in
different use.
A-2. you could put it in the A_2. This would cover it.
Enmings: Here you have the driving range as a primary use. There you,vegot a golf course as an accessory use- thatrs a dri.ving range and r irrinr
r Y? can, probabIy... Hele' Jo Ann, i.n her conditional use ptrrnit discussionL on number 2, she says he can light for security. rt should be arlowed forthat so we're going to have to look at that.
Olsen: Did you $ant to, just for my benefit, the conditional use permit,
we do have specific conditions for those 1ight stanilards that are onthere. r was rrondering what r do with the conditional use on that part.
Wildermuth: Just take the lights right out.
Conrad: The lights are gone.
olsen: You donrt want ligbts? Then number 3 woultl be rrhatever we qome up-with and 4 $rou1d change to sunlise/sunset.
Emmings: Wait a minute.
Conrad: I think your r.rait a minute is probably valid.
( wildermuth: -This ordinance is for this particurar driving range and\ nlnrature golf course, right?
Emmings: No. Anyone that wourd cotr.e up. Theyrre dependent to TH 5 andTH 2L2 and it would affect anyone that would come in under, so itrsgeneral too.
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Planning Commission Heeting
September 2l , LggA - eage 49
wildernuth: But in an A_2 area, probably the security lighting allowancewould be the same as any farn.
Batzli: ivhy wele the tees to the left going to be illuminated?
&unings: So you could use them.
Olsen: Werll come back with the arnendment andfor the specific conditions of the conditional at that time
use.
you can adj ust
SITE PLAN APPROVAL FOR A SELF-SERVICE CAR TVASH
STATION LOCATED ON PROPERTY ZONED BH, BUS]NESS
NORTHEAST CORNER OF TH 5 AND TH IOI, AMOCO.
Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report.
Jim Filippi: My name is Jim Eilippi. and I,m witb North Star Engineeringeonsultants and r prepared the prans here. r represent amoco oit compaiywho is, by tbe way, the _property owner of record on this. The onryproperty owner of record and r think therers been sone confusion oier theyears as to where that ownership lies but in fact Amoco oir company is theowner of record. what r'd like to do is just pass around an arlisi,srendering of what it is Ue'ire proposing t5 uuiia. Then wrrat r will do, ifI nay, because of the lateness of the bours, is I $i1l address veryquickry some of the peripheral site issues because r think rdhat wet!etarKing about, as you can boir the entile issues on this site right downto this one curb cut right here and whether itrs a singre drivewiy or twodriveways with the curb cut and that's the onry issue ihat realry standsup when everything is said and done. we.ve go-ne through the sta?f report.The parking is one issue identified as needing 5 spacei instead ot a wnicirrre have proposed. we were reading the ordinance a! basing it on L per 2ggsquare feet of retail store area which in this case is ?2tr and that-incrudes the coorers, actually 528. The entire building is lrg3g and thatincludes storerooms and the restrooms and the corridor ireas and is not infact retair space. rn addition, the service station characteristic ofthis, which is vrhat it is, an automobile service station, calls for 4parking spaces and 2 for- service bays which we do not have any servicebays so therefore we feel our parking requirements nourd be 4i Handicapspaces are provided at. the- rear. adjacent to the 2 handicap ramps al0ng thesidewalks adjacent to the building. we have an issue thai staif has -
inilicated that, r think that is discussed in vehicular service area or thedriveways should be pulled back 25 feet. we feel that appties to theparking and parking areas and in fact section zs-LLgL flom the regurationsrequires only a I0 foot strip of land bethreen the abutting right-5f-wayand the vehicurar use areas which includes driveways under your definitionrequired and arong TH 5 we do meet that 10 foot requirementl so rre donrtfeel that we do have a variance or any other necessity to move theproposed driveway access areas along TH 5.
AND AUTOMO?IVE SERVICE
HIGHWAY LOCATED AT THE
\_ Conrad: Jo Ann, whatrs your response?
CITY OF CITANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA
CONDITIONAL USE PER},IIT
1. Permit. Subject to th€ terms and conilitions set
forth herein, the city of Chanhassen hereby grants a conilitional
use permit for: A golf driving range with a niniature golf
course.
2. Property.The permit is for the following described
Chanhassen, Carver County, llinnesota:property in the City of
See Exhibit A.
3. Conditions.The permi t IS issued subject to the
following conditions:
Submission of a revised grad
showing the proposed l imi tscontrol where necessary i ndition of the parking 1ot andterline of County Road 117,the putting green ancl miniature golf course area. Theparking area shall be pavecl. City staff shall review and
approve said plan prior to activity occurring on the site.
2. Submission of a revised landscaping plan by December 1, f987,to add a 2 foot evergreen hedge and 6' trees in fron! of. theproposed parking area. City staff sha11 review anil approvesaid plan prior to activity occurring on the site.
3. Fencing on the property shall no! exceed 6 feet 6 inches inheight unless authorized by conditional use permit.
4. The two septic system sites along County Roatl I17 shatl beprotected from grading activities and shall be staked andprotected in the f ieldl.
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The applicant shall conplywatershed District, Fish another 1egal jurisdiction assite.
plan by December 1, L987,gratling, methods of eggsioning the size and revised loca-b house tr00 feet from the cen-
th the requirements of thewilttlife Service, DNR antl anyt relates to utilization of the
lng
of
cat
clu
and proposed berm areas around
The applicant sha11 install a holaling tank andl sha1l complywith all the requirements of Ordinance No. 10-8. A copy of acontract hrith a licensetl pumper shall be provided prior toissuance of the septic permit.
6 WI
a i
'l \'
-r.'.)_
ACruma+ \4.d)G\tecw
7
8
9
There sha1l be no alteration to the wetland area except forthe planting of grass seed and periotlic disking of the site.There sha11 be no fi1ling, grading or other alteration unless
approved by the City Council through the h,etland aLterationpermit process.
The applicant sha11 provide proper financial security in the
amount of 110t of the cost of the improvements to the siteprior to December 1, 1987.
There shall be no light standards on the prernises. Hours ofoperation sha1l be from sunrise to sunset.
10. The applicant sha1l pay
Engineering by Decemberfuture fees if services
mined to be necessary.
all fees incurred by Resource1, 1987, ancl shalI be responsible for
by Resource Engineering are deter-
4. Termination of Permit. The Cit y may revoke the
permit following a public hearing uniler any of the following
circumstances: material change of condition of the neighborhood
where'the use is locatecl; violation of the terms of the permit.
5. CriminaL Penally. Violation of the terms of this
conditional use
Dated:
The
"?A.-t-66y o1
Pel it is a riminal misdemeanor.
/(,
CITY OF HANHASSEN
By:I s l.1a r
By:Its Clerk
STATE OF MINNESOTA)) ss
COUNTY OF CARVER )
regoi ng instrunent was acknowleilged before me this
by Thomas L. Eamilton, ., L9?1 ,Mayor, and Don Ashworth, C ty Manager of the City of Chanhassenr
a llinnesota rnunicipal corporation, on behalf of the corporation.
KaqEN J. Er;eELeaECTtcTrq/ PUElrc - t, :lota
CARVEI CO:I;:TYll, coffiiaajl.l ar;':€s UrEgt
No ry lc
I
'1
City Council lEeting rst 22, I9g8
Councilman Johnson: By our next Council meeting?
Mayor tlanilton: Sure. Septe$er 12th.
Counci lman Johnson: Wbuld ]rou like to add that to the motion BiII?a schedule by septsnbe! l2th?
@unc i Lnan Boyt : Sure .
Ito bring us
Councilman
_
Boyt moved, Counci Iman Horn secorded to atrprove Ule Assurptionsaninary timetabre for securing _the buildings on the'iropertv as pioFsJ a.a todirect staff to bring an upd?ted sc*aufe tr.f-Uy Septsnber 12, l98g. Alt votedin favor ard the rnotion cairied
F
6g Nru+'uqi Wg-
jir.
-{ nBnu^t pRyz}tus DRTvING RANGE AND l,lrNrArTrRE colf, couRsE.
F.l?I? o"9V r The applicant is here tonight also ard rre,ve revierred theconditionat use permit and witat exists oui on the property tod"t:'-rhJ l,"*"ryon page 4 identifies 3 i tsns wlrich r berieve r"e relorved irg tt -.n possibly afourth one roould be arso removar of the building parts that are located betrrEenthe parkirg area ard the street. &D its* $ert ;1ot discussed aui irrg
- tire nostrecent aPPrication process in 1987 and 1988. rhose tirro issues r^ere instatlationof video games ard verdirg machines arn trre instauation oi;-"i;;: L to trrsign, t]lat is a -tlpicar -aicessory feature to an operation such as this but videoganes r.rere not discussed at all.
l,la]ror Hanilton: John, do you have anything you uant to present?
John Eyznus: I guess I really don't. I opened up on the 5th of July ard itrsbeen a rong hot sr.rmer....- rhe progress .o i"i i,." been a rittle srow... sqneof-our plants ard trees wilr be- rafer on in the rau. As fa! as the steerbuirding, I'm workinq right-now on setting ii. r don't knor^r, rrd prefer to getit sord rather than lry io fird scrneprace'to -store. it. rf it,s a sight probrsn
3r,l T q9!'t get it sold by next r.onti,, r,t.i-r-possibly courd do...so it r.urdnr tbe visible. Like I say, it's been slohr but evlry*rini i" "*ing
- iog"th...
!'ra)'or lEnilton: yourre willing to put the curvert in ard the driveflay? rhatapparently wasnrt done. you've got to put a "urr".i in tt;;.*;l* ;i"rgreensyour re going to do. Have you go[ten peimission from ]t,D"c-i;-pri"H' in trr"right-of-hiay?
John pryznus: Ihe culverts are all in.
!'tayor Hamilton: No, f mean the tlees.
Barbara Dacy: There are no trees in the right_of+ay.
!tsyor Hamilton: The bern uas su;posed to be tocated right?
t:?::: F.y^r rf he !,ranted to install. the berms rhat he hait originall.yrmrcatel, they uould have to.
City Council }teetir,e - August 22, :-ggg
r John Pryznus: the berms are there. As far as the trees, I vron r t be able toplant, only 2 feet out of the right-of-uay so I will be workirg with tlreAlboretun. Right now ttrey have scme different planting shulbs that I'd like toplant al1 alorg the site... I,l.l put the evergreens inside of the ferce.
!,tayo! tlafiii lton: Ard 16u're going to take tlre lights down that ],ourve got inthere as recqrmended by staff? Itre lights that you had put out there, you,regoing to rsnove those?
John Pryaus: At this point, all re/ cfipetj.tion has lights. I wouldn i tfinancially be able to cc:nlEte srith ttEn so at this poi;t, I guess I won,t.
l,tayor Hamilton: So you want us to shut you dorrD then? yourre not in
conformance with your corditional use. It lfas frcm suEise to surdown.
John Pryznus: Ttut r*as back utren re had tbe sunrise ard sunset. In theoriginal, erhen just the driving range uas approved ard I guess rre didnrt 90 overir all...
Counci lman Johnson: You can blane us.
John Eyznus: Well, it don't nEtter...
Counci lman Johnson: Does that sign need a sign permit or an)thing Barb?Norrally you can get such ard such a sign if you have a business right?
Barbara Daqf: Rrght. A trErmit would be required except, $e anenited the
ordinance to allow a driving range and miniature golf course. LJnfortunately r€didn't address in detail of hcil big the sigrn should be.
Counci lman Ceving: I think John you nrade a Lot of progress out there. I.m
pleased to see itts ccrnirg along. Ihe feo things that r.re I ve got rernainirg here
are pretty minor. you apEErently are i€rking tov,ards getting those trees inthis falI ard you irdicared there $ere berms there, I don,t rensnbe! seeirg any
I
l,layor tlamilton: Any questions? Jay, anlthing?
Counci ]man Johnson: yes, I Hant to knorr how the kids are enjoying the cigarettenrachine. You say your verding rnachines r"Ere for ttre ctrildren. i don,t see, Irman anti-snoking advocate to a point, r donrt see encouraging. r ber ieve snokers
need their ot,,n little roon tley go off into aDd fiU each other,s lungs but Idonrt see at a fanily recreational facility that r€ should be selJ.ing-cigarettes. I'd like to see, if rc,re going to consider it, I donr t-have any _problsns with one or tr,,n video machines as lorE as ue donrt becqre a video
arcade h,here the prlrnary [rrrpose is to play video ganres. As a stight accessoryto putt-putt, on a hot s\rrmer day ccnre in ard cool off fo! a r*rile ard play acouple ga.nes of Donkey Kong or r.rttatever, no big deal to nE but if you slartgetting 19 or 15 video games in there ard the plac€ turns into a teenage videohang-out,.thatrs going to be a problam. Cigarette rnachine is definiteiy aproblsn with me.
John Pryanus: I have no problanr. I dontt slloke ard I donrt have any problefliwith takirg that out. they put ttrgrr in there. I didnrt ask for it.- it r,aspart of i*tat cane wj.th the rnachines.
L
6I
i i.i
- -bity Counci I t'Eeting -t 22, 1988
berms but if thatrs in ttre corditionar use permit, eE ought to look at that.rhere seens to be a difference of opinion between yourself ard the staff onwhere the berms are or v*rere they should be. Hrw nrany video ganres are there outthere?t
John Pryznus: Ihere's fooSball and hockey.
!'layor Ha.Tilton: There must be 4 or 5 I sulpose.
Pypgit + Ceving: .guy, I guess r*en rE discussed this ray back ntren r€ rEretalking about the differerc-e bet$reen a business having 1 or 2 machines versus anarcade and I think r^e came up dth, is 6 the nragic nuiber? Do you recarr that 6is an arcade?
Barbara Ecy: fhere are no definitions.
@urcilman ceving: okay, r guess rnaybe r€ t"Ere thinking of that at one tine. r
9.onlt "-.?ny big problan with the few itgns that we've got here. Ttre only onethat eE did have a 1ot of discussion over John ras the :.ight stardaidi. - rt"tthere wasn't to be any righting on th€ facility. r don,t have a real llardfeeling about that but I- think if .re're.going to go that route, re.re loing tohave to csne back ard talk about it again because r can see where that-rDutdextend your business day. Does it give you another har.f hour or sqnething?
John Pryznus: lihat it does is, in the evening as the sun goes doe,n, before itgets too dark, I would assr.rne that, Irve talked rrith arl the neighbors ard itwirl keep it open on a nice evening for another harf tpur-45 minites ratner ttransunset-. Basicalry r've kept my stardards. F100ds up on the out ligtrts and keepthat shining dorrn. r'.m not puttirE thgn in a high placre rire a uiripair oranytling like tlnt. I wasn,t...
counciLrnan Geving: r think our discussion t*pn re talked about tights rerescmethirg far different than r.rtrat you.ve got out there. I think r,5 ,er.thinking that lre wouldn't tet John have ttrese big light pores and ioi"-otp:oblgns wit]1 any neighbors that might object to tha[ Uul r see no obiection tor*tat's out there now. r don't have any probrerr rritl ttrat Jotrn excepl'1hg ig'snot on )lour corditional use peunit. Thatrs all I have.
courrcilrnan Horn: r guess. r donrt have any problanr with the sign. To trE itlooks Like a reasonable sigro for that kird of a business Uut.i"inr-i *e""""UrE should discuss that.. .
Iralror Hanilton: Ihat can be discussed tlrrough t},e ordinanc.e procesi.
counci lman ticrn: r also agree about tle lights. r don,t see anlrthino. rhelights are mainly in the mini-putr area arei't they? TtE r ishG' "r.' ;;inly inthe mini-putt area?
John Pryznus: yes, they forloe, tl. IEth. rhere are tuo ro$s of trees thatfollo$, the patlr ard they shiDe towards the mini-putt area....
t
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councilman Hnrn: r rearize re didn,t allow those but again. Dale said re hadenvisioned _sgmethirs totalry different. r also agree ttrat irrere should beverriing rnachines out there. Feople should have acress to pop. you don.t rEve
62
any s,ater on the site do you?
thinq . . .
Like a r€ter fountain so ttri s is really the only
John Pryanus: yes, I haven't.had it lrooked r:p yet. I do have a... Right now Ihave. the ttpsi {ora ccnpany with autqnatic cooter. Like I say, tr,e cilarettemachine wasn't one of the machines tllat r had brought it. rtr6'venaingjcunpanybrought it in. r didn'it order it ard I can have tlrgn take it out of fhere...As you get the grass to start growing out there ard eventuarry... As you ccmein there's one berm that's nelbe ? feet high in front of the iuildirE,'but "o,*of that might even... but r wirr be rcrking on it right on ttEough tie r.tt tohopefully. ..
Councilfian ttorn: I donrt have any problanr witi anything I see out tlpre. Myonry recormerdation wourd be that r think it rrpuld be better, ard l,ou rnaydisagree w'ith tlris, to cqne-to ,! *itl, r.fiat louive done ard * .ooi.a agiee withit. lJhereas- to go ahead ard do it before re- get a peanit to do ia can'scmetirnescause yoursel f more grief.
John Plyznus: fhere are sone things tiat I changeal...
councilman Bo)rE: I see r*rere staff refflnnends g foot evergreens instead of 5foot.
Barbara Dacy: yes but since the benns are 6 feet, therets a disagreanrent so...
councirman Boyt: r didn't trear it as a point of disagreenent along tlre highway.
John Pryanus: I don't think that r.purd be done... Not arr of tllgn, everyone isput on the road. The shorter ones will be put inside
Councilman BoyE: I hoIE you'le successful with this. Iive got to teII you thatit bothers me when anyorE intentionarry violates the stardar6s ti* ciiv has setfor their develogment. you wontt convince me John ttrat rtren you put ti:ose rightstandards in you thought the city gave you atrprovar to do thai. iltnt that *e"ni3, V9u decided that you're going [o do- t]rat- Lusiness the *i y., ,r".A 1o ao .that. b.,siness ard then you'Il ccme back to the city ard get iplroval. i aon,tthink thatts a snart business approach. r think ttrat re-shouia aerinitety rooxat the sign to be sure that it fits within the stardald size for signs. rsuspect it does. the light staDdards, r€ need to have urse inspeclea b&, staffto be sure that they're directt' so t}rey donrt shine on tbe high-way at alr ardgood luck. I hoIE to get out tlere ard use it sfiEtjfie
Barbara Dacy: Given the Courcil's discussion, f guess what I rruld suggest isthut ti-,e appl icant appry to.anend- his permit regaraiDg t}re right stanaiias anathe sigm issue or the Courril look at a ord inance anen&ent. -
Councilman Bo)t.: I think r€ sbould cpnsider hours of olEration too.
lrayo! Hamilton: yes, I think Jotrn should ccne back, hours of operation, lightstandards ard the trees.
John Elryaus: I'11 bring tlnt rp to staff this reek.
-t-
63
I
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City Council t€etirv lgust 22, .I9g8
City Council Meeting - .t 22, Lggg
So we need to table this until, oh and the sign also should be
Bernie: r have not been forrowing this but r am r.rondering r^hy the restrictionis placd on a businessnan to have restricted hours when it" lmp"titioncertainly dictates that ptt-prtt @urses, their best hours aie ii*-ai-gg t.1g:00 at.night. I'rn r.rondeiing ulry his position is so uniqre-tha[-* Inoora rruu"
!'la]ror Hanilton: r'rtren ke first rooked at tlis Bernie, John had a hard drau: planthat tre brought in here ard
-
the neighbors objected to it. I€ tried to work rrithJohn all the my through this procels ard itis been kiDd of one frustrationafter another- ard just as it oceurs no, trers goi rights ooi ti,"r.-out-L." not
:pproved and he goes ahead and [ruts tlEn r:p there without getting permlssionfrqn the city. If he rdants to have r ights out thele, he s6ourd 6oi,e in rrerewith -a plan like ?!ytody- else tlatrs 95in9 to tq, to do sdnething. Ib just 9oahead ard do it, like BiIl says, thatis not tfre iignt *y io io ii. -rti" *"several _years ago wrren the first pran cane along and te iaia * *r"nii going toa1low him to have tlre high pole stardards arn af tbat tir* rns rihen r,e saiasunrise to sunset r*ould be his operation. so r think since tt.i tlrr=-Jot " t.=talked with the neighbors ard they have seen that it's ;i-dirry 6'L-;;nuisance that they thought it ras-going to be but he's got [o .&n" G.r1o *with an amended plan to tly ard change-it.
John Eyznus: ...I have rrorked wi th the neighbors...
Councilnan Johnson: Hhen you started talkiDg about ]rou! water systsn, I hotrEyou. rearize.that lrten you_start serving ttEt r€ter to people, either in trratnachine o! in that water fountainr.)rou have created " irUii. '*I"r-"opefy
uVstate taw and you have to do certain Fater quarity tests on t}at on "'ioirtin"basis. You'll need to coordinate that with -the 6unty tteaith o"puit*.nt. vou'Ilneed to do that and fire your reports of this. At one of .y ru.il plants r norxwith, they have one coffee machine that i.s hooked up to .,"i'"r, -otir"ili=. tr=yhave bottled $,ater ever$rr?ce- we got stuck because 1ou have l'ore than 25enployees there, as a public uater iupply system. So lrourre io ttp sare}atthere so watch out for that one.
I'tayor Hanilton: lle hasnit hooked it up yet.
Courci lman Johnson: It,s a-fairly sjrple test and I .hink they,re probablygoirg to be annual tests, rrm not- sure. oE test requires 6-L-;#;1.*testing lor bacteria and that kind of stuff.
I
l'rayor Hamilton moved, councirman cevirg secorded to tabte revies of the szznusTiyils Range ard Miniature-corr gy."g rrDtir a plan is urorgni u".r.litiadditional information. A1] vot€d in favor arg ire rnotion ciiiiJ:' "--
64
ll
lGyor fhrni l ton :
a part of that.
t
REQUES? FOR KE.INEL PERMIT, 1630 TSKE LI Y RGD, PHIL }ADTIqdETZ.
Jirn Chaffee: I,t. t€thio$retz is here $bo is the applicant for the kennel. permit.lle is here because r+eive had cunplaints rrcm a neiitruo;;-tt:-Krr"s;i,-ifri*, r,rosure council is well aware of since he ms serdirg au. ihe infon;ti6n on tre
{
CITY OF
CtI[NH[SEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX r47 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
October 25, 1990
!lr. John B. PryzmusJ. P. Links, Inc.
7750 Galpin Boulevaril
Chanhassen, UN 55 317
Re: Grading Pernit Application forConditions of Approval
Grading Pernit Pile No. 90-I 2
Swings Golf Range - Anended
Dear 11!. Pryznus s
This letter is a followup to our-Decting on Tuesdayl October 23, .1990 with -Planning-Director, paul trraus!, regaritini-the con-ditions of approval for your grading perarit.- le eirccdr.a pernitwi11beissuedcontingentupontheio11owingcondi[,ionar
1. The earth bern along Galpin Boulcvardt (County Roadt ll?) thallbe continuous two-tier, two foot high rock r-taiulng ralls,not to exceed rn .ccu.Dulrtive heighi of four fcet li lteu ofthe three foot high earth.bern prtvlously rcquircd.
2. Provide the City rith a finanelal sccurity ln thc forn of a
, letter of credit o! clsh cscrou in the arn-ount of $lrOO() toguarantee erosion control Deaaurcs rnd sitc rcStoraalon.
3. All disturbed areas shall be reededl and dtigc nulched! orsodded prior to Novenber 15, 1990.
"11 !: crlculltedl accord[nE to thcc lSablc Jd.;70-B for Eradiig t00
Erosion eontrol neasures (hay balcsl Bhall be DlintaiDeathloughout -unti I vegetatlvc cover &as been fully rc-established andl rernoval is authorizedl by thc clLy cngineer.
Any future exgansion or.gradtlng lctivltles sill rcqulscanother-pernit applicatloa and yill aleo reguirc eri approvedlsite anil,/or gradllng plan by the planning Coluniasion ai:i CttyCouncil prior to conmenccneDt.
The grailing pernit fee ah
1988 Uniforrr Buildling Codlcubic yardlc of Eltcrl!1.
5
5.
r. John B.P ryznus
1990october 25,
Page 2
7 The grading rctivity that has occured adtjrcent to the creek.located on the northerly. portion of the iroperty st,"if-iI-^
::$;:. back to a point-t6 be deterninea-in'irrJ.rI"ii*ui=c:..v
8. As agrbeill the expansionis not perDitted ;ithoutditional Use permit to !1i ty. This expansion isgratling pernit. TherefoBust be removed or trans
to the.parhing lot lndl drlving ranqereceiving an aoendnent to the-con--llou expansion of the cxi6tinq faci-not included in the adninistiativere, the.driving tee andl parking lot
f ornedl into berning purposes.
9. . A building permit is-reguircdt for the instarhtion of thefence proposedl arounil tlie site.
i
rf you are in agreenent uith the aforementronedr conditioDs ofapproval, the citv is preparett to issue ana giani-yoo-i'ii"iingp:I.it. for berning purposls, including srre rcstoratioD. Oponreceipt of a check for $8{ andt cecurifv in-tt"-ii;;-;;: rllte,of creait or cash .scrob, in the inJu"i'oi stlooo,-i iiri ill".""your application and issue you a gradting perurr.
ff a grading pernit is not obtainedt andt courpllidt rithr the siterust be restoredr to originar gradte and condition .i-iion"i"-possibte and no later tf,an toiernuer-ti,-iiio. --i"iiuil'io-iorprv
t ith either acenario Day result in furiher actlon by thc City.rf you have any guestioisl fa;i i;e;-;i'contaci-a":. --- --'
S i nce re Iy,
CITY OF CBANBASSEN
aI,zztQDavid C. EenpelSr. Engineering Technician
DCB: jns
c! Ga!l'wa!renr City Enginccr
!:ii';:"X3:i';,liiiilTi,!ltlr'tn...Steve Nirchlan, Bulldtiag Offictal
Iog.I. custrfaoD, Carver-County Engineer50D ,Derneyer, Rirey-purgatory-Bluff creck *atc.bed Dirtrrct
CITY OF
ef-
Aa
EII,1NII,[SSEN
()
690 COULTEB DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
CERTIFTEDJanuary 11, 19 91
!1r. John PryzDusJ. P. Llnks, Inc.
7750 Galpin BouLevard
Chanhassen, MN 55317
S incerely,
Ann olaen
Senior Planner
JOW
Dear Mr. PryzDus:
On Novenber 28, 1990, the City Eent you a letter in regards to yourgrading pernit #90-12. The letter atated that a condition of thegrading pernit was for you to subnlt a conditional use pe:mit andsite plan review appllcation for expansion of the Svings -GoIf site.-The city established a deadline of January Z, 1991, for recelpt ofthe appllcation. As of January 11, 1991, the Clty has not receivedthe application, nor has any contact been Dade by you to the City.
The city will grant one last extenslon untll frresitay, January 22,1991, for the applicatlon to be subaitted. If the conpleteapplication ls not recelved by ;tanualy 22nd, the City vll1 placeyour conditional use peralt on a future Clty Council agendi forconsideration of revocatlon.
Should you have any questlons, please feel free to contact ne.
^J
590 COULTER ORIVE . PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
OIsen, Senior Pl anner
Bui lding Official
CITY OF
EH[I{H.[SSEN
{er-
UEMORANDUM
TO: JoAnn
FROM :
DATE :
SUBJ:
Steve A. Xi rchnane
May 8, 1991
Pl anning Case IUP 91- 1 (Swings Miniature Golf)
It is not clear f rorn the building file why a holding tank wasoriginal ly permitted on this property. Ilinnesota Rules chapter7080 "Individual Sewage Treatoent Standards" was in effect at thetime of building pernit issuance, and septic sites had beendesignated on the approved site plen. The holding tank is aprohibited installation. A permit, however, ras issued requiringa puoping contrect with receipts being sent to the City. Theseconditions have never been met.
The approved building plans requireventilation conforming to UBC ?05.
met.
sani tat ion facilities and
These requi renents were never
The only inspeetion requested
despi te required inspections
The final inspection did notpancy has every been issued.
by the contractor was the final,being noted on the approved plan.pass, and no Certificate of Occu-
I stnongly urge that noproperty until existing
i nc I ude:
further development be perDitted on theviolations ere corrected. This sould
1 Installation ol an approved septic aystem rith enal ternate si te protecteil.
Existing building rnust be brought up to code and a Cer-tificate of Occupancy issued.
Application for fence penroii must be nade and .rr"or"Uor lence renoved.
.,
2.
A, .ubitem (4.
O) The systemlhall be dBigned with each residence having . eewate
tanl or wlth . @mllotr scwage lark In the case oil common t.nk, the capacily o,the tanL
shall be sized a€.ordlng to p.rr 7080.0130, subpart 3, em B, .nd sh.ll be
compartmented lf ln s rlngle tank,
- (c)- Sewer spEms shdl b€ d€signed on r ertimdt€d ave.age daily flow
for dwellings b63ed on tsble ll, ret fo.rh h part 7080.01rc, subpart 2, plus estimated 0owr
from othe. e3t.blllllmetltr,
(d) The sewer for systeos wlth coomon sewage t.nkr sh.ll be so
constsucted to tlve me.n velodue., whetl flowint fulL of not ler' than two ,eet Fr !.cond.
The sewer for syrtecu wlth lrdlvldual sewage tank ghall be !o const.uctcd indd6igned to
hydraultcally conduct the flow for whldr they werc destgned. In no case shall r gravity scwer
bc 1e39 lhan ,our indl6lr dltmeter,
(e) Inflhatlon or exr0t!.don ghdl not erceed 200 gallonr pcr tnch ofpiF d.meter Fr EUle pq d.y.
' (0 cle.noutr, brought ,lu9h wlth or above tinlshcd grlde, shall be
provlded wherever r oEllron sewer iohs;n hdlvidurl buildllt gewer or-ptping trom an
tndivldual r€w€r trnlw or every tm leet, whlc.hever ls lers, ur d manhob lci:esils provided.
e) Th.re shdl be no phylical connecrtoo bctween rewe.r and water
supply syst€drr. SelEr !h.U D€ set brct lroh watet supply syst.m. rnd piping a! ,Gquired
for brdlding s.weE. Where tt tr not poistbl€ lo obtain f;6per ;eparation dlsianies, 0|Jsewer
conrl.ctions shrll be rgrterughl 6nd pressure te3tcd.
(h) Pump srstlons shall be w.t€rright.
(t) Pu.Elp stadonr shall have m.nhol6 flush wlth or abovc finished
g.ade fq, cleanlng .nd Erdntenancs.
O Mrnhole coveE rh.lt bc 90 construded r! lo pr€v.nt un.uthorlzed
cntry.
(L) Pumpc and pump srrtion! shall b€ lizcd to handle pcok flows.
0) An alarrn rystem shall be provlded for dl pu'lping elltion! to worn
ol punp fdlure, ovcrflow, or olher m.lruncdon.
. (3) Mdntelmc.. All F son3 uslng r common drain ,leld sy3tem shall assure,
by contra(t wlth mahtentnce personnel or olhe. cqulvdent merne, that the system will be
6dequately malntdrcd throughout ll! ulefirl lile. The lystem so malntained lnclud6, but L
not lknlted to, cotrlmon &dn fleldr, common rewrgc lsnls, common purlp,s, common pump
stationg, oo[rmon sewEr!, and .I lndlvidual taot! conn€cted lo the coErBlon 3ystem.
c. Other systemg. Where utusu.l conditions exisL special systems of Eeatmcnt
and dlsposal other than thooe specillcally mentioned in items A and B, may be employed
providedi
(l) rcasonable assurance of performance of the system i9 prcsented to the
permitting aurhority;
(2) the englneering deetgn oI the sysrem Is ,Lsr lpp.ovcd by rhe permittinS
34
lrllllll
.utho.tly;
(3) thcrc ls nol digdt.tge to the Fpund rurf.ce gr to lurtrcl wrtq+
({) t.e.tsnenl .nd dlspocal o, wart€s l! h ouch r mrnner ro at to prolcct th!
public heallh .td gen€rd weulre;
(5) the eyst€mr comply with dl .pplic.ble requt Gmentr o, th6e si&d.rd! .nd
with all locd coder and ordlnrncer.
Subp.6. Cla$ lV Alacltl dv.n tloldlrt rmlo. Holdln8 trntr:
A. Holdlng t.nl-! m.y b. ruowcd only 19 rcpLcedl.tltt for e)dltlnt
nonconfo.mint systeE|! o( otr erbtlng p.rcrh or lot! lr of tha date ol th. enmtm.nt of thcae
etand.rde rnd only where lt .an concludvely be shown th.t ! rtclldard, Cla$ I, Chss II, Olss
IIl, or mound gysl€Er c$not be fe.slbly ngtdled.
8. A holding tanl rhdl be constructed o, thc
'rms
mtErLlt.Dd by the s.oc
precdutes ar thG€ sp€dted ror w.t rdght lcplic t.nh,
c. A cl€anout plF of !t least dr lndl€r dtr[leter rhrll exteld to lh. ground
eurlace and be provlded wtth !.rb to Fwent odor .nd to.xdudc ln..cb rnd vqml$. A
manhole oI .t least 20lnch€, h.si dlmcnllorr 3hiu crt.nd tfuough the cov.r lo . point withln
12 inch6, but no dc.r than dr lnches below tinlsh€d grd.. Tf,G mlnholc covct eh.ll b.
covercd wilh rl le.3t clr hdl.! gf.adli.
D The i.nk sh6ll bc prote<led .gainrt flotstlor tnlder htgh water t.ble condltlonr.
Thb sh6ll be a.hleved by wetght o{ trrl, carth {rchors, or slrdlow bury depthr.
E. For a dwelllnS the size shall be 1,000 gillonl or {D gallonr tlmcr thc nu.Erber
of bcdrooms, whichevcr is grealea.
For pcrmanent itructule3 other lhan dwelllngs, the cap.clty lhall be ba!€d on me.6ured
,low ralcs o. €stlmstcd llow r.tcr. . The lank .ap..ity 3hal bo al le.rt flve tlmc. th. dlily tlow
rate.
F, Holdlng t.nk! rhdl be locltcd: ltr .n .te. re.dUy .cre$ible to the purrp tru.l
under all weath€r cooditions; rs spedfled lor !.prlc tlnle ln trble fV, part rc80.0170, iubpart
2; wh6e a.cidental spillage durln8 purnping wlll nol creatc. nd!.n<t.
C. A contract for dispos.l and tseatment o, the lew.ge w.st6 3h.ll be maintrind
by lhe owner wilh a purhF , miurlcipdlty, rgency, or rlrm crtaburhed by the owner with r
purnper, municipality, .gency, or flrm egtrbllehed tor that purpose.
H. Holding tankr shall be monitored to minhrlze the ch.nce oI .cddelt.l lewage
ovcrrlows. Tcchniqu6 ruch a! visual ob.ervatioh, warning ltghb, or bellg or regularly
s.heduled pumping shall be used. For othel e3tabllshqlentg r po'luve w.ming system Eh.ll
be inslaued which lllows 25 percent reserye capacity after actuation.
35
tttlllllll
City Council lleeting Harch 25, 1991
CounciLnan Lling: 0n that subject? I lanted to comnent Don that bn this
approval of agenda, that uas a neu trrn to oe and I uesn't quick enough. I !,as
uaitjng for approval of the agenda and then I realized I ras supposed to speak.I r,rould just request, if I'n not out of order, a quick comnent under item 7.
Council Presentations. 0n the next Council rgenda I'd just like to heve the
i.ssue of the, I'd like to hear the'report fron the University of llinnesota Goose
Renoval program and hou it effects the City.nd the possibility of continuationfor 1991 and subsequent ' ylar s. i uould just like to, for your sake llr. llayor,just put on the racord these picturcs of iy dock. July, 19?0 rfter the goose
renoval Iast year.
Counciluonan Dimler: Ah, t hat 's phospherous loading for surc.
that it sirnply be placrd on the eganda naxt
8t-s
,'t 't i
hayor Chmiel: In other lords, uhere Baabi gocs nothing grous. 0kry, ne'll aove
on to our administrative prcsentation.
Councilman tling: tly request is
heeting.
oon Ash!,orth: If I nay. I did...s0 I'o assuming thrt he rrad
llayor Chnirl: Any discussion?your nane and addrass phasr?
It
John, rould you lika to cooe up? Just .ttte
UPOATE ON SIIINGS CONDITIOI{AL USE PERIIII. SEilIOR PLAXNER.
Jo Ann Olsen: L.st fall thc ouner of Surings started to do sone grading on hissite lithout a pernit. !,e uent out to put I slop lork order on the sitc rnd hedid pursue uith a grading paroit but uhat hr ras doing actually cnded up being
an expansion of the conditional usa pcrnit above uhat rls approved. So rs partof that grading permit he had to aakc an application to con! in for eo lnendedconditional use pernit so that he could bring his site into conplianc'!. He hasnot done this after contacts by steff. So originally r? u!r? 9oin9 to bring iton the agenda for consider of revocation of the CUp or th! conditional usepernit. Instead urhat te'ra 9oin9 to do is just have the ettornay,s officcpursue John uith a letter stating thrt ha is in violrtion. of tha conditional usepernrit and pursue it that ray and hopefully grt hin to rlke rn applicrtion. Ifnot, ue urill go after hin .gainst tha violation of tha conditional use parlit.
!,e felt this uas ! better ray. rf re ravotg thc perlit, thln actullry ihoseconditions are no longer there for us to cnforce rnd ra aight es rell 9at to thalegal process nou. I knou that John uas in today and ras iuarc of thti eird saidhe uas going to be here but r don't sea hil. Just Uant?d to rake you !rar! thltle're doing this intrrnally end that's it. ua'll lct you knou rhai hrppcns.
havor chniel: rs there anyona clsc thrt uould tika to rddrcss tha issus?
s.r John in this .ftlrnoon. Ha did saalthc rrport end he's rcccpting that.
llavor chmiel: Thcra's only one thing on ltcr nuaber 3 thlt r lookcd rt.says prior to Nouehbar 13, 1990 or rhould thlt bc lttu
Jo Ann olsan: No. That ras part
1990 that he had to do thrt.of the origlnal grading pcrlit to thrt rrs
happv
27
A{IAcl.\Ha{r k I
x
John Hennessv: John Hennessv, 7305 Balpin Blvd.. ilr. pryzDus is doing r'd saya respectable job out there as far ls rppearance of the project and evirything.Ihe onlv thing that concerns ne is sonrething a rittle rore ganeric. rt's the
City Council neeting - l.l; :h 25, l99l
the City is setting. Ihere's no bite to the ordlor a nonth and a half lithout ! parDit. I neaI see the City cars.going up and doun Galpin g
spections out there in phersant Hills rnd otherthings just keep 9oin9 on lnd on rithout .ny 2nirst tine. John's bcen battling uith the Cj.ty fe, 8-9 years. It's uell laaning and cverything.
precedence
he uas out
90 on that
t hey're doiroad. So u
t his isn't
ue've I ived
]na
nh
Ivd
Pla
for
or
t hat
t her e
long?
n9 in
hv do
the f
t her
nce. I fiea n
ou does this. so I knor,r
ces rlong ourcr0ent? end
as long !s
llayor Chmjel: Haybe sonebody uould like to rddress that specific question.
Jo Ann 0lsen: As
t here r,re did put
So uhat ue did tr
ue uere tlra de auar
Piles of dirt up
sit e rest ored asuith hinr to hopef
But I knou that i
uorking on it.
as ue uer! allrted to that hr
order inrmediately. That doeo is try to r,rork uit h hin toit uas already, therc lere pt the creek also so uhat ue tossible. That's yherc le uenet hin to comply uith th.t an
s Like le're not doing enythi
grading illcgaIIy out
nacessarily stop hiD.
the site, because thenof dirt. Thcrc uerato do is to grt th!
rough the grading parnit
did pull the dirt back.ut aclually re ara
soon
a sl op
3as
sn'l
9atiles
riedagains
y to d
e t hat
best p
ully g
t look
r th
dhe
n9b
John Hennessy: uell I knou it's not like you havc nothing to do u.p hare.
Jo Ann olsen: But it tates a yhile you knou as flr as 9oin9 through thatgradjng pernit and then also to get hi! to coaply.
John Hennessy: Has the area to the cr:ek bean rcstorad !s far as drrinage?
Jo Ann Olsen: Yes. They pullad the dirt brck fron the creak. Fron thc edge ofthe creek. He didn't really get into the cr..k to inprct it. vcs, ri pulliOthe dirt back and got that out of there. Ihlt uls our lain conccrn.. '
John Hennlssy: Okay. Thank you.
Don Ashu,orth: If I could part
talked
t hings
financi
the rcq
t hat ue
negot ia
urapped
up thr
bacausa
vcri fi a
t o Jo
t hat
aI ti
uisitrr fo
tions
UP A
9ol f
of s
d uha
h recently on t his
he uas to do out !
nres and literally
ion of the propert
llouing John rroun
he had continued
nd 9et sohe none,,
coursa project but
onre of these ot hert he !,as doing but
ially rcspond as rell. And tgain, f havan'titcn but le hrd cone to rgr!!!!nt rlth hil es tot that sit!. Thcn hc ren into sooe difficultit ras not untll thc City had actually consunDltcdy dountoun thrt r nuobar of financirl conditionsd rerc actually clcrrad up. I tnou during thoscto stat! to .!r Don I.d lit: to 9!t this thingavrihble bacausc f rcally rent io trkc end cl.crnf just hrvan't ba:n able to do ! thing out thcrcprobhis. Ha rhould hrv. gottln r hold of us .ndI gu.ss thrt's Just not John.
llayor Chnriel: tlr. Emnings.
Steve Earnrings: llr. Pry:hus has bean ln front of th! plenning Connlssion slvrraitinres rnd I knou this is onc of thos! casrs rhera thc City fticpi banJing or.,backuards and is not net halfua), and f knou thcrc rrt sonr n!r, Council ianbars
2?
City Council Heeting - trch 25, 1991
not be auare of the lhole history but I lnou ue've chasein the past and told hinr he can't fill in there. He fil
fore uithout pernission and le chased hih out of there en
's uorking doun by the craek. Therc's no quastion in ryll that he's doing things that. the City rould not pernit
Ehat he uants to. I think.'it's ioportant to put that in
uho na
uet I an
once b
Iike h
Y
d
e
e
o
t
d hio out of the
Ied in t herc
d nou it soundslind ha knous
and he scens to
to perspect ive
fuI Ijust
uit h
!,
di
llayor Chniel: cood. Thank you Strvr. 6ny othcr discussion? Hlaring non!, Iuill nake a ootion to adjourn tha rceting.
Councilnan llorknan: 5o rroved.
llayor Chmial: Is thcre e second?
Counc! I r,rona n Dinler: Second.
llayor Chaiel roved, Councihoran Dirlcr lrcondrd to edjourn tha ra:ting. All
voted in favor and th! rotion carricd. Thc recting rls .djournld rt 8:45 p.r..
Subnit t ed by Don Ashr,rorlh
City Fana ger
Prepared by Nann 0pheim
I
t 23
CTTY OF CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317- (612) 937-re00
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW APPUCATION
APPLICANT
ADDRESS:
OWNER (l:
ADDRESS:
z_1.11t< s
l..-n G l.A ..1-3t
'1. _ Comprehensive Plan Amendment 11. _ SubdMsion
f "onon,o*l
Use Permit 12. _ Vacation cf Row/Easements
13.Variance
4 )4 tnrerim Use Permtt 14. _ Wetland Arteration permh
5. _ Notilication Signs t5._ Zoning Appeal
6. _ Planned Unit Development 16._ Zonlng Odinanca Amendment
7._ Rezoning 17._ Fllng Fees/Attomey Cost
8. _ Sign Permits 18._ ConsdEnt Foes
10. Site Plan Bgrlew
property owne6 wlthln 800 los{ ol the boundlrler ot the property muat
ilh lhe lpplicltion.
Twenty:six lull size fotded cople3 ot the plan3 mu3t b3 tubmHld.
8%' X 11' Reduced copy o, tnn3prrcncy for !!ch phn aheril.
A list ot a
lncluded w
' NOTE ' When multiple applicatlons are procesSed, the apgopriate fee shall be charged for each apflication.
TELEPHoNE (oay titiel q 14 - 5({)O rctepnoNe, 73 '/ - / E4rl
2.
3. _ Grading/Excavation Permh
9. Sion Plan Revier,v
TOTAL FEE $-
5 s,vPROJECT NAME
LOCATION
PRESENT ZONING
REOUESTED I-AND USE DESIGNATION
REASON FOR THIS REOUEST
This applicalion must be completed in full and be typewrinen or dearly printed and must be accompanied by all inlormation
and plans required by applicable City Ordinance provisions. Belore filing this application, you shoutd conter with the
Planning Department to determine the specifie ordinance and procedural requirements applicsble to your application.
This is to certify that I am making application for lhe described action by the City ard lhat I am responsible for complying
with all Cityrequkements wilh regard lo this request. This application should be processed in my name and I am the party -whom lhe City should contacl regarding any maner pertaining to this application. I have attached a copy of prool of
ownership (eilher copy o, Owner's Duplicate Certificate ot Title, Abstract of Title or purchase agreement), or I am the
authorized person to make this application and thE fee o ,ner has also signed this application.
I will keep myself informed ol the deadlines for submission ot material and the progress ot this application. I turther
understand that additional lees may be gharged tor consulting fees, ,easibility studies, etc. wlth an estimate prior to any
authorization to proceed with the sludy. The documents and infonnation I have submined are true and conect to the best -ol my knowledge.
I also understand that atter the approval or granting of the permh, such permhs shall be invalid unless t hey are recorded _
against the title to the property for which the approval/permlt ls granted within f 20 d ays with the CaNer County Recorder's
and lhe o document retumed lo City Hall Records.
4-ta '7/
nature ol Date
ure ol Fee Own Date
ication Beceived on_ Fee paid Receipt No. _
LEGAL DESCR!PTION
BEOUESTED ZONING
PBESENT LAND USE DESIGNATION
This application will be considered by the Planning Commission/Board of Adjustments ard Appeats on_
CITY OF
EH[[IH[SEEN
590 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX .I47. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDI',}.I
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJ:
Planning Connission
Jo Ann olsen, Senior Planner
l'[ay 10, 1991
Zoning ordinance Amendnent
Preservation District to Create a Bluff Line
BACKGROUND
on April 3, 1991, the Pl.anning Coromission reviewed a proposal by
staff to create a bluff line preservation district. The general,
standards subrnitted by staff are those that wilL be adopted as part
of the shoreland ordinance rrith the ne!, DNR regTulations. The DNR
regulations include protection of bluff Line and steep slope areas.
The Pfanning Connission, for the Eost part, was in favor of such an
ordinance. Comnissj.oner Erhart felt that the ordinance may be too
extrene in protecting areas within the city that should be
perrnitted to be developed. The Planning Cornmission directed staff
to further work on the proposed ordinance.
After the Planning Cornmission neeting, staff net with Conmissi.oner
Erhart and Rick sathre of sathre Bergquist to review just how
extensive the DNR regulations are and if there are areas vithin the
city that would be inpacted that should not be regrulated. It lras
determined that the proposed regulation did in fact go beyond Irhat
the intent of the city nay be and it was then decided that a bluff
line preservation ordinance would be designed sPecifically for the
river valfey and creek bluff line areas in the city. staff has had
the Engineering DepartDent denote the bluff areas that should be
protected by the ordinance on aerial maps. These areas are located
in the southern portion of the city along Hwy. 2L2 and the
Minnesota River valley and along the B1uff creek Corridor. staff
will have a working map showing these areas at the Planning
connission meeting for the Cornmissioners to review and make any
changes they feel necessary.
It is staffrs intention to fornally adopt a bluff line map and that
those areas designated on the nap will be enforced by the new bluff
line preservation ordinance. As the Planning Conrnission will see
sA -rd)D
Bluff Line Preservation District
llay 10, 1991
Page 2
when they review the nap, there are several areas where homes have
been built into bluff areas such as in the llesse Farm subdivision.
The hones have been constructed but are surrounded by bluffs on aIIsides. The ordinance will contain an exernption for existingstructures so that they hrill not be considered non-conforninqstructures. Staff is rrorking rrith the City Attorney on fornalIanguage for the ordinance to provide for this exemption anddesignating the official nap.
Staff feels that this proposed bluff line preservation ordinancewill be very beneficial to the city to prevent past problems fronoccurring. The bluff line preservation ordinance will help preventthe destruction of the bluff line such that has occurred on theMike Sorenson property located on Hwy. 212 (clearing and grading)
and on the Halla Nursery site (indiscrininate filling of a bluffvalley).
once the bluff line map has been established, staff will create aproperty o$rners list fron which to notify all affected property
owners of the pending ordinance. Therefore, staff is recornmendingthat. the Planning Conmission table action and table the publi-hearing until the affected property owners can be properlynotified. Staff will also be presenting a more conplete oidinancedraft rrith additions by the City Attorney and plannlng Connission.The following attachment is the first draft of the ordinanceproposed by staff.
RECO DATION
Staff recommends that the Planning Cornroission table the publichearing until staff can properly notify the affected propertyowners, complete the official rnap and finalize the proposea drafLordinance.
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COT'NTIES, UTNNESOTA
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE N{ENDING CHAPTER 20 OF THE
CHANHASSEN CTTY CODE, THE ZONING ORDTNANCE
The City Council of the City of Chanhassen ordains:
Section 1. Section 2O-1 , Definitions is hereby anended byadding the following:
B1uff. Bluff neans a topographic feature such as a hill,cJ-iff , or embankment having the following characteristics (an areawith an average slope of less than 18 percent over a distance for50 feet or more shal1 not be considered part of the bluff):
(1) The slope rises at least 25 feet above the toe of theslopei and
(2) The grade of the slope fron the toe of the bluff to apoint 25 feet or nore above the toe of the slope averages
30 percent or greater.
Bluff IBpact Zon€. Bluff inpact zone means a bluff and landlocated within 20 feet froro the top of a bLuff.
IDteDsive Vegetation CleariDg. Intensive vegetation clearing
means the complete removal of trees or shrubs in a contiguouspatch, strip, row or block.
Toe of tbe bluff. Toe of the bluff means the lower point ofa 50 foot segTent with an average slope exceeding 18 percent.
Top of the bluff. Top of the bluff means the higher point ofa 50 foot segment with an average slope exceeding 18 percent.
Section 2. StateDent of Intent.
The City finds that developnent, excavation, clearcutting andother activities within the bluff inpact zones nay result in
increased dangers of erosion, increased visibility to surroundingproperties and thereby endanger the natural character of the land
and jeopardize the health, safety, and rrelfare of the citizens ofthe city. To preserve the character of the bluff inpact zonewithin the city, alteration to the bluff inpact zone will not bepermitted except as allowed by this ordinance.
Section 3. Structure Setbacks.
(1) Setback from the top of bluff is 30 feet.
Section 4. Bluff Inpact Zones.
structures and accessory facilities, except stairways andIandings, must not be placed within bluff inpact zones.
Section 5. Stainays, Lifts and Landings.
Stairways and lifts are the preferred alternative to major
topographic alterations for achieving access up and down bluffs andsteep slopes. Stairways and lifts [ust neet the following design
requirements .
a.stairrrays and lifts must not exceed four feet inwidth on residential lots. Wider stainays may beused for conmercial properties, public open-spacerecreational properties, and planned unit
developnents i
b.landings for stairnays and Lifts on residentiallots must not exceed 32 square feet in area.
Landings larger than 32 square feet may be used for
commercial properties, public open-space recreationproperties, and planned unit developnents i
canopies or roofsIifts or landings i
are not allowed on stairways,c
d stairvays, lifts and landingsconstructed above the ground oninto the ground, provided theybuilt in a manner that ensures
erosion i
may be eitherposts or placedare designed andcontrol of soil
e.stairways, Iifts and landings nust be Located inthe most visually inconspicuous portions of lotst
and
facilities such as ramps, lifts or nobility pathsfor physicalJ.y handicapped persons ara alsoalIowed, provided that the dimensional andperfornance standards of subitems a. to e. arecoroplied with.
sect i on 5.Removal or Alteration of Vegetation.
f
Renoval or alteration of vegetation, is allowed subj ect to thefollowing standard:
a In bLuff inpact zones, Iinited clearing of treesand shrubs and cutting, pruning and trinming oftrees is allowed to provide a view from theprincipal dwelling site and to acconmodate theplacenent of stairways and landings and accesspaths .
Section 7. Topographic Alterations/Grading and Filling.
A grading and filting pernit will. be required for:
Section 8.
Seetion 9.Official lr{ap. Note - This will be added after
angJuage from the City Attorney.receiving proper 1
(1) the movement of Dore than ten (10) cubic yardsof material uithin bluff inpact zones.
(2) FilI or excavated naterial nust not be placedin bluff inpact zones.
Roads, Driveways, and Parking Areas.
Roads, driveways, and parking areas must neet structuresetbacks and must not be placed within bluff inpact zones, whenother reasonable and feasible ptacenent atternatives exist. If noalternatives exist, they nay be placed within these areas, and mustbe designed to ninimize adverse inpacts.
Planning
April 3,
Commission Heet i ng
799f - Page 48
BLUFFLINE PRESERVATION ORDINANCE.
Emmings: Paul had some specific questions on the summary on page 6 of hisreport here. Or Jo Ann. I'm sorry,
Krauss: Do you want to start this now siven the time?
'! lake that Iong. Yeah, I think we -Emmings: I have a feeling this one won
ought to do it.
Erhart: Yeah. I've got some issues on it.
Er hart : Under i tem 1?
Emmings: The only one I've got, since I've got the floor, was ulhen you
LaIk about the bluff impact zone wiLhin 20 feet of the top of the bluff.just wonder why it isn't a bigger number. The bluff impact zone talksabout, page 2 is, I don't know why it's noL 1OO feet?
Er har!: t^lhat I i ne are you on?
Bluff Impact Zone.Emmi ngs: Page 2
EIlson: Second major paragraph.
I
Emmings: No above there uhere il's defined.
OIsen: Actually they're finding the opposite. That the definition ofbluff is where it has to be 3OZ for a certain amount and then if it levelsout, then the steep slope or it's not a bluff so actually, the way bluffsusually are, is that there will be a steep slope and then you'll.have itleveling out but that still, the top of this is still, or the top of thebluff so you actual.Iy already have a pretty decent amount of area ]eve]ingout from the bluff before you do take that 20 feet.
Batzli: I thought the bluff, the onLy part
ulas over 3OZ. That's where I Nas confused.
of the bluff was the part that
O1sen: But the top of the bluff is a higher point. ...segment with
So you've got 30% and then you could have anything with 182. That'sconsidered part of the bluff.
1AZ.stiII
Erhart: 50 foot?
olsen: In fact, I don't know that you need more is what I'm getting at.
The DNR finds that the 2OZ might even be...
Emmi ngs: Let me tellbluff impact zone butstructure only, what?
you , well okay.
a buildins only
But you 've
needs to be
restrictions on
back 30 feet. A
sotset
the
Erhart: You're getting into the broader question but I Hant tobring up here and that is. My impression of this, I guess I've comment, to
bee n
Planning
April 3,
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 49
pushing to try to preserve this bluff and everythine like that from
commercial development. On the other hand, I guess I'm a little ar^Jestruckby this whole thing is that one of the things 1'm trying to preserve is sopeople can build houses on top of Lhe bluff and overlook it and I guess myreaction is, I'm concerned Ne're being too restrictive in terms of the guy
who wants to build his house and have a deck that is up essentially to whatyou call the top of the bluff and have it essentially overlook the va]Iey
and stuff. A lot of r,rhich those existing houses are there. You'reapplying standards which really are, there's aII kinds of houses there nowwhich would not meet this standard and I really question Hhy we're trying!o do Lhat when I lhought !.,hat u,e were trying to do was prolect the bl.ufffrom development right essentially down in the valIey and that area there.
My concern is now, that's one concern. It kind of goes against hrhatyou're.
ErharL:value ofit.
,I just
bluff isYea h
the
don't undersLandtha! someone can
it. To me that's part of the bigbuild on i! and take advantage of
Emmings: I don't mind them building houses on top of it but I think they
ought to be set back a ways.
Erhart: Second concern of the whole thing is the way this reads it willnot only just apply to bluffs but I'Il teII you. There's a lot of hills inthe city of Chanhassen that this thing wiII make practically unbuildable.
BaLzIi: [^le can limit it to the BF Districts.
Erhart: Because I'II tell you, and the reason I ask. You're taking thisout of the DNR shoreland ordinance and you talk about 25 feet above the
ordinary high water and then you're just taking that number and applying it
to number one. And you're saying that a slope rising at Ieast 25 feet
above the toe of the slope, not the high water mark and I think that
number's too small. I like the overall Lhing. I really like iL buL
I think where it's getting too broad and we're going to be applyine this
thing to hills. As a result, you're going to have a major impact on how
things wilL get done and I don't think that Has our intent. I have a lot
of hills on my property that are over 25 feet tall.
Emmings: !^iith slopes Iike these?
Erhart: Oh yeah.
Emmings: But you don't Nant to build at the top of a steep slope like that
do you?
Lrhart:
Emm i ngs :
I think that's whaL's
Right up to the edge
tJeI l the deck.
valuable about the land.
of it though?
Erhart:
Emmings: Yeah, because I'm including the top of the bluff.
Planning
April 3,
Commission Meet i ng
7991 - Page 50
Emmi ngs :
where you
And you don't worry about having a deal like in California here
sliding away down the hill.
Ahrens:
E.I Ison:
those. . .
Erhartr In the first place you've got 50you've got another 30 feet of the setback.restricting a lot of land from use by lot
go
oh
Or
in Eden Prairie.
Eden Prairie just during that 1OO year slorm there were some of
feet of
You 'r e
ohrners.
an 18 foot slope and then
taI king about
Emmingsr ThaL's what I thought this was all about.
E.Llson: IL uras f or impact u,,asn't it? It hrasn't to save a bunch of decks
on top of the bluff. You're preserving ho4 nice it looks.
Ahrens: I thought this will aLI about prolecting bluffs, not protecting
thern for the development of houses on the top of them.
Erhart: I understand that but there has to be a poinL where you drawline. I mean if people uJant !o build houses, Hhy don't tre just say yo
a
u
boat and
limit
numbers
can'
see
and
are
t b,u i lda houseI think
already
OIsen: lre 're
Ordi nance .
houses on lakes because I don't want to drive by in my
and you wouldn't have a house. So there's a practical
we've gone, urhat scares me is apparently some of these
incorporated into the DNR ordinance.
going to be having to adopt lhese with our Shoreland
Erhart: 25 feet is, that's nothing. That's a hill here in Chanhassen.There's a lot of places that are hilIs that have nothing to do with Hhatwe're talking about bluffs that wilL fall into this regulation.
Emmings: They did say, somewhere in here they told us what you thought
would actually be protected here. I don't know. f can'L get too excitedabout a hill. I don't know exactly r.rhat a hiII is I guess.
OIsen: It's steep slopes
developmenL of that.uas what maybe you're picturing and you do a]low
Erhart: That'6 what I'm saying but I think with Lhis ordinance we're notgoing to anymore.
Olsen r Yeah.
Emmings: Remember Tim when we talked about the land that went by the golf
course and somebody wanted to build a house that was kind of going to hangout over the bluff almost and I think we h,ere all real opposed Lo that.Both because iL imposed on the creek there, the valley thaL was there andit didn't, well I don't know. I remember thinking it didn,t sound safe to
me in addition.
PlanningApril 3,
Commission Meet i ng
799! - Page 51
t,lhy are you sayi ng 80?
Because you have 50 feet of 182 -
You've got 50 feet going what direction?
Back from essentially where the 3OZ slope is.
18.a slope and then you've got another 30 feet
Erhart: But Steve, there's a difference between 80 foot setback. You have
182 slope.
Emmi ngs :
Erhart:
Emmi ngs :
Erhart:
feet of
80 feet.
Emmi ngs :
Erhart:
From uhat?
From what I would cons i der really where
Look at this
the bluff
diagram.
Then you have 50
of setback. That 's
starts -
Look at this oneEmm i ngs :
I rm -
I don't agree with Lhat.
Erhart: The top of the bluff means,
EIIson: There's a picture of it. It's described here.
Emmings: A picture's urorth a thousand words.
Erhart: I've got it. Let me read it for you. The top of the bluff meansthe higher point of a 50 foot setgment with an average slope exceeding 18%.
conrad: okay, and that's this part.
Erhart: No, thaL's the 3OZ. I'm reading the ordinance to you.
Olsen: The top of the bluff is where it levels out...
Emmings: Put this one up.
Erhart: r know but that doesn't agree r.rith u,hat it says here.
Emmings: I think you're reading steep sLopes. Isn't that the steep
s I opes?
O]sen: The steep slope is kind of bethreen these areas and that's where
CeiI was saying that either 20 feet...and then in the area of 18?, then you
have. This would be the top and then you'd have 20 feeL setback from here.
Emmings: I like that, better.
Erhart: It's where your 30? is. Then you have another 50 feet where it
drops down to 1az. I'm just saying, so then you finally get to the top and
then you've got another 30 feet so your house is 80 feet back from where.
Planning
April 3,
Commission Meeti n9
f99! - Page 52
Emmirrgs: In that
no 18 at all? It
peculiar case yeah but what about here Nhere you've got
goes up 30 and then it starts to level off.
Erhartr If you go uralk those Minnesota River bluffs, it's far more common,
in fact you have variations aII the uray up like this. ft doesn't go up andjust stop Iike that picture. That's not the way that Minnesota VaIIey
looks. In fact I'm not even sure, weII. I quite frankly think it's going
to get a hard time. It's going to get so restrictive because the fact thatit dips back down. It's pretty idealistic.
Emmings: Maybe we ought to step back because I thought what ue were tryingto do here uras keep development off the top. The edge of the slope. t^J edon't want to see development on the slope ilse]f and basically from theriver to the top of the slope a little ways back we didn't NanL to see any
development. That's where I thought ure hrere coming from.
Ellson: So nature wise it just Looked like 1OO years . . .
so what did you have inEmm i ngs :
mind?
tJeII you're the one who proposed this
Erhart: I never had in mind that. I h,as trying to get rid of the
development actually down by the highway. This is aII kind of shocking to
me. I'm not opposed Lo me because I think it wiII !.,or k but I'm just saying,there's got to be reall)2, we really need to define trhat our goals are here.I guess I don't have any problem with the houses way up there thaL have
decks Lhat come righL to the edge because they Iike Lo Iook over thevalley. I really have no problem with that. It's no different than other
houses around. Housing on lakes. It's an amenity that those people want
and it's really not that intrusive.
Emmings: And residential development Iike that at the top of the bluffdoesn't bother you but you uouldn't wanL Lo see any other kind?
Erhart: I don't want to see commercial/industrial development in thevalley or situations. tle don't want houses on 3OZ slope. I absolutelyagree with that because of the erosion problem. And the thing is, that
sounds good here but there's a Iot of places in the world where houses arebuilt on 3OZ slope as a rule.
Emmings: And they wash out into the Iake,
Conrad: They shouldn't be there.
Conrad: Let me follow up.erosion? t^lhen we had that
Olsen: The DNR's big
Again, this ordinance
The
20?
reason for the setbacks Jo Ann r,rould be for
thing is more visual . They want to keep thinss.is for the shoreland ordinance so it's bluffs along
Erhart: tJell you wouldn't build a house in Puerto Rico. Nobody woul.d ]ive -there in Puerto Rico if you couldn't build a house on a 3OZ slope.
Conradr I just kept Lhinking that Tim, if you put a house right on the
edge of the bluff, you've got a lot of urater coming off your roof and itjust seemed, you know for a rain storm, it just seems like you're
accentuating the erosion. That's how f interpretted the ordinance. If you
keep your house back a litt]e bit, you're reducing the erosion- Maybethat's not a big deal but that r,ras my interpretation of the reason. Minewasn't visual .
Ellson: PIus not all the decks are good looking and things ]ike that.
Erhart: This can be applied, unless I'm reading it Nrong, to a lot ofhills in the City that have nothing to do with bluffs. 252 rise.
Krauss: That's a question we have when tre looked at starting to put
together a map of where these things occur. It's not only the MinnesotaRiver bluff lines. It's around Lotus Lake. It's in some different areas
and there are more than I think we would have thousht. You're raising avalid point. On the other hand, I think there's a problem uith allor^ringpeople to clear cut 30 foot openings in tree cover because they h,ant toIook at the Minnesota River.
Erhart: I have no problem with thaL,
Krauss: We've been talking to a couple of guys who are amateur naturalist
uho greu up in this area and have been walking Bluff Creek for 20 years and
would like the City to be more active in preserving the natural areas ofBluff Creek around the golf course. And they've offered, I think we'regoing to probably try to schedule this for May sometime. They're going to
conduct a Lour, a uralking tour of the area down there and I was going toinvite you and the Park Board and whoever wanted to go on the City Council.
But they pointed out, there's a new home being built and iL's by one of the
Redmond son-in-law's on an 80 acre tract of ground past the golf course onBluff Creek Drive. You can go to see it. t^lhere they met our setback
requirement from Bluff Creek. The creek itself buL they chopped, I mean
it's a very steep bluff where they built and they chopped, clear cuL the
trees so that their home could be hung very dramatically. It's a
spectacu).ar home. Hung dramatically out over this pristine val]ey. And
these guys said they were horrified. They were walking through Lhere andhere's this area that no intrusion has ever been in and notr you walk upthere and you see this thins over hanging the valley. NoN they may own it.
They do own part of it buL should they have been allowed to intrude in thatway? I haven't seen that aspect of it but the spector of it I findtroubling.
Erhartr I agree and maybe what we have to do is find out what areas we
want to protect in this manner. t^lhere you don't ulant to see anyLhing andproLect those areas. on the other hand you've got a guy uho owns a lot on
Lotus Lake and you've got 1,ooo houses that are parked right up to the edge
Planning Commission Meet i ngApril 3, 1991 - Page 53
the lakes so Lhey don't want it cleared completely right up so you can seethe home. The setback is for visual but also for erosion.
Ahrens: It's too r^rindy to have a deck up there anyr^ray ,
Emmings: No he doesn't because isn'L there a regulat ion that says ifyou're coming into an established neighborhood you can vary, or you build
so you're building up at the level of where the existing homes are?
Olsen: That's in the Shoreland Ordinance itself
we can apply Lo this ordinance.
but that's something that
Krauss: AIso, it should not apply. I mean if you've got rolLing terrain,
we're in marin country here. The glacier stopped here and dumped out piles
of rocks all over lhe place and now some of them have trees on it orthey're steep. Those kinds of things are sort of abberations on the
Iandscape and just because Lhey're steep, you're rig,ht. They shouldn't
automatically trip this regulation necessarily.
Emmings: I don't think that's our intent.
conrad: tlhat you just said about building on a Iake and steep slope.
There's just no uay it should be done. Just absolutely no r4ay so I don't
care what the previous residents did. There should be no building on a
steep slope going to the Iake. There's no way they can Prevent erosiongoing in there. There's absolutely no way.
Erhartr Are you talking about steep slopes? 3OZ oy 18e"?
Conrad: Wel I 3oz ,
Erhart: I'm noL disagreeing with that Ladd^ But what we 've got
counter
here.
poi nL .Conrad: But Stevedon't bel ieve that
was making a point and I
that should be done.
was making a I
Erhart: Again, my concern is that you've got 80 feet of 182 that He'realso restrictj.ng and again while it may be appropriate for the, you knor.lthe Bluff Creek thing by the golf course is the classic case. It's level
and man it drops but most other areas don't quite fit the classic case. I -think we'v got to put some more thought into this.
Emmings: I don'L think anybody sitting up here had hills in mind when westarted aII this
El Ison: No. In fact I'm only Iooking at
thinking Hinnesota River
one place in aII of Chanhassen.
two places by the lake. There's Minnewashta.IiLtIe bay where there's some houses high on the
Emmings: I was VaI ley .
Krauss: You know but it's across Lake Minnewashta from you. It's off that
Tanadoona where those homes are perched up on that bank.
Emm i ngs: We] IThere's around
there 'sin thaL
Planning Commission Heet i ngApril 3, l99r - Page 54
of the c]iff, and now this guy just because he hasn't built on it for 3Oyears, now wants to build houses, his house has got to be 80 feet backfurther than aIl the existing houses?
Planning
April 3,
Commission HeeLi ng
7991 - Page 55
hill and then there's that old Governor'sin this. There's a rea.L steep hill there,mentioning. It's right on the TanadoonacalI it. That's right on Lhat property.
that probably wou).d f itthink is the one you're
Or Tuna Nood]e as we
manslon
which I
pr oper ty .
Conrad: But if we're Iooking at bluffs, I guess we've got to be looking atbluffs regardless -
Emmings: We don't have !o.
Conrad: Don't we?
Emmings: Ne don't have to do anything.
Erhart r tje don't have to. Def ine our goals of t^rhat -
conrad: So the goa] is to preserve the bluffs-
Erhart: WeII initially the goal was to preserve the Minnesota River VaIley
and I think we should include Bluff Creek and some of those other ravinesthat feed into the Minnesota River. I think we've got to decide whether
Ne're trying to preserve bluffs on Lotus Lake and l,linnewashta.
conrad: UeII if it applies, I think we should.
Erhart: Maybe rewrite it so iL doesn't apply.
Emmings: See on Minneaashta and Lotus I would expect that the
Shoreland ordinance will apply and take care of that. I don't think we'vegot to worry about thaL. t^le've already got something that covers that. To
me this uas, and I agree with Tim. The idea was the Minnesota River
VaIIey. The creek beds Lhat come dob,n to it and I don't know, maybe we can
specify urher e it applies.
If weKrauss: WeII you cou]d.
can agree on uhere those
designate LhaL.
You could do
things s hou ld
this as an overlay district.
be found or are found, we can
olsen: I!'s going to be tough. Ne know certain bluff areas like you're
saying where you Hant Lo protect them but there migh! be a bluff area that
meets the 3oz slope thaL we don't know about but should still be Protected-It'd be hard to determine, how do you know what's a bluff and what's not a
bl uff .
Emmi ngs :
Olsen: I
Emmi ngs:
Aren't there topographic maps that you can look at?
started to have one of our engineering technicians try to.
f suppose you go crazy looking at them.
Olsen: He goes crazy because Iike you say, it's bluffs but the same, until
that development comes in, then they would be required to show us what's
PlanningApril 3,
Krauss: I guess I don't think, yeah I agree with Joprobability exactly delineate where this happens butof box in areas urhere this ordinance applies,
Commission Meeti n9
7997 - Page 55
Ann.
urhat
[.le can
Ne can
1n a1I
sor tdo
Erhart: Is that what Eden Prairie does?
Krauss: I don't Lhink they do. I Lhink they just have a standing
ordinance that applies wherever it occurs. In facL it's called the steepslope ordinance. It's not the bluffline,
Batzli: I agree u,ith Tim. I think the original intent of this u,as toprotect something that, I mean we have a major thoroughfare through thecity and He were trying to avoid having it all commercialized and ruin thebluff in the meantime but I guess I'm not gdverse to t,here it's going aIittle bit. I don't know that somebody, I guess I would raLher see
somebody have to have a setback off the top of the bluff. I thj.nk that's areasonable requiremenL I guess. I Iike the direction of it and I guess Idon't mind applying it to olher places in the city.
conrad: So far I agree with that until I can get a better feeling of r.lhatwe're talking about and how it would restrict development or hurt people. Ilike the general direction. I don't Lhink we're talkins hills. As much asI'd like to preserve hills, I don't want to bulldoze them but I don't knowthat this, that thaL's the point of this ordinance.
Olsen: I think. . .definition of bluff. It misht be steepthat allows alteration with certain conditions which would
too.
slope but
e nlce
agaIn,
to haveb
Krauss: Let's go someday and see if it applies.ouL
andOlsen: Or come in look aL the topos and figure out where it is-
Farmakes: t^lould the area inbetween Lake Ann Park and Greenwood ShoresPark, there's a steep slope area there off of the Eckankar property. Itoverlooks Lake Ann.
Krauss: There 's actual ly
Erhart: Haybe what I can do is show
consider u,rere the areas of concer n .
Farmakes: tJould that be
Olsen: It might not have
We'd have to look at the
Krauss: t^Jhy don't we comefollow up on some of these
you some areas of where I would
Haybe I misunderstand.
a ]ittle bit of a bluff there.
considered a bluff? It seems to make this grade.
enough distance though to meet this definition,
topo.
back to you with some more information. l.le'Ilthi ngs .
bluff and ulhat's steep slope when they come in with their p]an. Then h,e
would know.
Planning
APrIl J,
Commission Meeti ng
799t - Page 57
Emmings: trlel] the definition of bluff includes
have to so you're going to have to.
Ellson:that.
a hill so you're going to
Cal^I it a steep slope.ordinance. Nor^r you know why they wenL with
Emmings: You can
Olsen: It gives
be a steep hi]l.
call it a bluff but maybe you don'L want it a hil].
you the speci.f ics that it has to be. . . Haybe thaL could
Erharl: I think the number that really hit me was the.,.in Chanhassen isjust nothing. If we had picked enough. It could be just a hiII and where
you have developmenL, you may have one street on the toP of the hill and
houses up there and then another level of the street " That's real common
throushout our city. The number I would have picked for that Nas 50. I
think would have then defined it more as a really big change in elevation.
25 feet in Chanhassen is nothing. This room is 1O feet high. The
difference between different neighborhoods is 25 feet. You're chewing up
8o feet potentially of making land unuseable. That's tlhere I was going. I
thought the number ought to be 50. tlhaL's concerning me is that aPParentlv
they've already adopting 25 in the shoreland ordinance. However, it only
applies to shoreland areas so if we want to pick that number,'I'm iust
trying to point ouL that it's going to be applied to a ]ot of places that
we hadn't consi der ed -
Emmings; Alrighl . Paul's got I think the next thing we ought to do is
Paul's sot some news about various things. oh, I have to go back to the
Iandscape ordinance for one minute. Here's a folder I'm going !o give to
PauI. It's from Lhe Minnesota Native Plants Society. It's about native
plant enLhusiasm and iL's catled Elhics and Consideration. f know we've
got an ordinance that says you can't let areas grow wiLd and hav<i weeds and
all that and I also knohr tha! there's, it's getLing to be more and more
common and it's promoted by this MinnesoLa Native PIanL Societv and oLher
private concerns to Iandscape using natural Prairie grasses and o!her
things that are not mowed. I even saw a booklet ouL at the Arboretum
when r u.,as out there one day that had a proposed ordinance in it which I
meant Lo copy and forgot about but I'II set a coPy and geL that in- But I
think we ought lo, basically Lhis thing said if PeoPle want to trv and
convince the City and their neighbors that what they're doing isn't just
lelLing Lheir yard go, Lhey've go! to do Lhings ]ike keeP track of the
expenditure and the effort that srent into Iandscaping with natural plants.
Make sure they,re keeping just common weeds oul of it and making an effort
to maintain i!, even though that doesn't include mowing. l don't knoer. I
Iike that idea. I think it's apProPriate. I thought about doing it in mv
own yard. Letting some areas go natural.
Er hart: Do
comes ouL?
we have a mor,ling ordinance here tha! if you don't mow the City
Emmings: Yeah, you can be Lagged.
CITY OF
EH[NH[SEEN
MEMORANDITiI
TO:
FROlil:
DATE:
su&r:
Paul Krauss,
Uay 5, 1991
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 553.17
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-s739
Planning Conmission
Planning oirectorQf,.
Proposed f,lodifications to the PUD ordinance
BA CKGROUND/ SI]I.,IMARY
As the Planning Coromission is aware, staff has freguently raised
concerns rrith the Cityts existing PUD ordinance. We believe that
PUDS represent the optirnal nechanj.sn for planning the large tractsof the city that will be opened to developnent with the relocated
MUSA line. Horrever, the current ordinance is extremely deficientin terms of getting adequate gruidance to ensure that the cityobtains a guality developnent proposal . I'urthernore, the cityrsuse of the PUD in the past has resulted in less than optinaldevelopment. Individual developers have used the PUD district toavoid confornance lrith strict zoning district standards. But theCity has not achieved a connensurately inproved quality of
development in return, even though this vas the expectation. This
was particularly evident in single farnily subdivisions coning in
under the PUD srhich resulted in a nunber of problens dorrn the roadin terrns of variances and other issues. Several months ago, staff
prepared a review of the PUD ordinance outlining areas hrhere webelieved it was deficient and proposed langnrage changes. Later atyour request, we had John Shardlow and Terry Forbord givepresentations outlining their vier s of the PUD and how its usenight be of benefit to the conrnunity. The current draft of the
ordinance reflects discussions fron both previous neetings.
changes fron the first draft of the ordinance have been bold faced.
Copies of earl.ier nenos, which include our review of the existing
PUD ordinance, are attached. This report will briefly touch onnajor changes contained in the present draft.
1. The intent section was redrafted to rnore specifically outlinethe City's expectations for developnent that utilizes the PUD.The idea of an exchange for impror ed guality to obtain
enhanced flexibility and possibly Io$rer cost developnent is
2
PUD ordinance
May 6 , 1991,
Page 2
Staff recommends that the
amendnent to Article VIII,attached.
specifically outlined. Hopefully, the intent section nowprovides rnore in the rray of review standards and gets atayfron the mom and apple pie statenents that drew earliercriticisrn.
I have clarified the point that density within a PUD sha1I becalculated on gross acreage within the property lines of thesite. fhis is sonelrhat different than is used elser,rhere inthe communi.ty uhere density is conputed after park Land,$retlands and roadways are excluded. Frankly, I have alwayshad a problen nith this definition since it prejudices thecase against legitinate use of the property. Ilowever, in aPUD, where we are encouraging the developer to clusterbuildings, I believe use of the existing definitions areparticularly inappropriate. The developer will still berequired to provide park land and protect wetlands and willalso be required to protect other natural features as outlinedin the intent section.
3 I have elirninated the floor area ratio table fron theordinance. Floor area ratios essentially enable the city toget a handle on the bulk or nassiveness of buildings that arebeing-proposed. In a community such as ours where high risebuildings are not likely to be seen fron sone period oi tine,these standards may have been unnecessary. I have also,lowered hard surface coverage ratios to keep more in line withcurrent district standards.
4. As discussed at -previous neetings, the single farnily pUDoption is now being fully explored. As agre6d, nininun lotsizes will be reduced dorrn to 9r 000 square ieet. As rrrediscussed, thj.s should provide anple reaso-n for a devel.oper touse the pUD while the city should stil1 be able to insur; thathigh quality developnent results. The cityrs expectations forlandscaping and architectural standards arL outlined. Lastly,to encourage clustering in a residentiaL development, there -is
a requirernent that a nininum of 25t of the grdss area of thePUD be set aside as protected open space. park dedicationsand wetlands can each only be used to satisfy up to 25t ofthis standard. Thus, the pUD will result in- sdbstantiallymore space than would result from normal platting.
RECOMI,TENDATTON
PLanning
Planned
Conmission approve ordinanceUnit Devetopnent District as
ARTICLE VIII, PIANNED I,NIT DEVEIJOPITENT DISTRfet
DIVISION I. GENERALLY
Section 20-501. Intent.
PlaDredl urit developD€Dts offer eDu'tlceal floxibility to develop asite througb tbe relaxatioD of Doat trorEal roDiDg districtstandlarals. ![h€ use of the PgD roliDg alao alloys for a greatervariety ol uses, interaal tratsfers of deDsity, coDstructiorphasing aDd a poteDtlal for loye! developneDt costs. Il €xchaDgefor this aDbaDced fletibility, the City bas the €xpactatioD thatthe dev€lopEeDt IrlaD yill result ia a aigalficaDtty higher quality
aDd nore seasitive proposal thaD rould hav€ b€eD th€ caae rith tbeuse of other, Eore staDdardl zoaiag distrl.cts. It yi1l be theapplicaats responsibillty to denolstlate that th€ Cityrgexpectatioas are to be realized as evaluat€d agaiast tbe folloringcriteria:
Planned unit developments are to encourage the following:
(1) Preservation of desirable site characteristics and open space
and protection of sensitive environmental features, includingsteep slopes, Dature trees, craeka, yetlatrats, lakes and sceaicvievs.
(2) More efficient and effective use of land, open space andpublic facilities through nixing of land uses and assenbly anddevelopnent of land in larger parcels.
(3) High quality of design and design conpatible with surroundingland uses, including both existing and planned. gite
pIaDDiDg, laDdscalriDg aDal buildiDg architectur€ ahould reflecthigher quallty desiga thaD is found €lsewhere iu tbe
conmuaity.
(4) Sensitive developnent in transitional areas located betweendifferent land uses and along significant corrj.dors within thecity.
(s)
(6)
Developnent which is consistent with the conprehensive plan.
Parks and open space. The creation of public open space maybe required by the city. Such park and open space shall beconsj.stent with the conprehensive plan and overall trail plan.
(7) Provision of housing affordable toappropriate slthia th€ pIrD.all incone groups if
(8) Energy conservation through the use of nore efficient buildingdesigns and sightings and the clustering of buildings and land
uses .
1
(9) gs€ of traffic DaDage[eDt and d€sig! techDigues to reduco tbepoteDtial for traffic coDtlicta. ImprovereDts to ar€a roads
aDd interEectioDs Dry be rogulrea as appropriate.
section 2O-5O2. Allowed uses.
Specific uses and perfornance standards for each PUD shall bedelineated in a developnent p1an.
(a) Each PUD sha1l only be used for the use or uses for which
the site is designated in the conprehensive p1an, exceptthat the city nay pernit up to 25 percent of the grossfloor area of all buildings in a PUD to be used for landuses for vhich the site is not designated in the
conprehensive plan if the city council finds that suchuse is in the best interests of the city and isconsistent with the requirenents of this section.Specific uses and perfornance standards for each PUDshall be delineated in a PUD developnent plan.
(b) where the site of a proposed PUD is designated for norethan one land use in the comprehensi.ve plan, city mayrequire that the PUD include all the land uses so
designated or such conbination of the designated uses asthe clty council shall deen appropriate to achieve the
purposes of this ordinance and the comprehensive p1an.
section 20-503. District size and Location.
1) Unusual physical features of the property itself or ofthe surrounding neighborhood such that developnent as a
PUD !ri1I conserve a physical or topographic feature of
inportance to the neighborhood or connunity.
2)The property is directly adjacent to or across a right-of-way from property which has been developed previously
as a PUD or planned unit residential development and will
be perceived as and wilL function as an extension of thatpreviously approved developnent.
3)The property is located in a transitionaf area betweendifferent land use categories or on an internediate orprincipal arteriaL as defined in the comprehensive plan.
2
(a) Each PUD shall have a rnininun area of five net acres, unlessthe applicant can denonstrate the existence of one of the
fol I owinq:
Section 20-504. coordination nith other zoning regulations.
a) Subdivision review under Chapter 18 shalL be carried out
sirnultaneously with the review of a PUD. The plans reguired
under this chapter shall be subnitted in addition to or in aforn which will satisfy the requirements of Chapter 18 for theprelininary and final plat.
b) Site plan review under Article II, Division 6 of this codeshall be carried out for each non-single fanily or duplexprincipal structure, that is proposed.
c)PUD plans sha11 be coordinated with and in conpliance withprovisions of Article V, Flood Plain Overlay District; ArticleVI, wetland Protection, and ArticLe vII , Shoreland OverlayDistrict.
Sectj-on 20-505. Required general standards.
a) The city shall consider the proposed PUD fron the point of
, view of all standards and purposes of the conprehensive land
use plan to coordinate between the proposed development the
surrounding use.. The city shall consider the location ofbuildings, conpatibility, parking areas and other featureswith response to the topography of the area and existingnatural features, the efficiency, adequacy and safety of the
proposed layout of streets; the adequacy and location of green
areasi the adequacy, location and screening of non-conpatibLe
land uses and parking areas.
b)The applicant shal.l demonstrate that the PUD plan offers thecity high guality architectural and site design, landscaping,protection of wetlands, creeks and mature trees and bufferingfor adjoining properties that represent irnprovenents over
nornal ordi.nance standards.
c)Density. An increase/transfer for density nay be allowed atthe sole discretion of the city utilizing the following
factors:
1) Density ylthin a PIrD shaIl be calculated oD gross acreage
locateat uitbi! the property lines of the site ia
accoralarce rith the land us€ pIaD.
2) The area rrhere the density is transferred must be within
the project area and owned by the proponent.
Density transfer
evaluated using
Density transfer
not pernitted to
in single fanily detached area lril1 bethe itens listea in Section 2o-506.eligible for nultiple fanrily areas are
be applied to single fanily areas.
3
3)
4) In no case shall the overall density of the development
exceed the E ross density ranges identified in the
comprehensive plan.
The city nay utilize iircentives to encourage the constructionof projects which are consistent with the cityrs housinggoa1s. Incentives may include nodification of density andother standards for developnents providing low and moderatecost housing. Incentives nay be approved by the city onlyafter the developer and city have entered into an agreement to
ensure that the low and noderate cost units remain availableto persons of low and noderate incone for a specifj,c period of
time .
e) Hard surface coverage shall be linited as follows:
d)
L)
comprehens ive
Plan Desiqnation
Low or nediun density
res idential
high density residential,
office
commercial (neighborhood
or cohnunity)
commercial (regional)
industrial
I{ard surface
Coveraqe (t)
3ot
sot
70*
70*
70*
Individual Lots within a PUD nay exceed these standards aslong as the average meets these standards.
The setback for all buildings within a PUD from any abuttingstreet line shall be 30 feet for local streets and 50 feetfron railroad lines for collector or arterial streets, asdesignated in the comprehensive plan, except that in no caseshall the setback be Less than the height of the building upto a naxirnum of 100 feet. The setback for all buildings ironexterior PUD lot lines not abutting a public street shall be30 feet except that in no case shall the setback be less thanthe height of the building up to a maximrul of 1OO feet.Building setbacks fron internal public streets shal1 bedeternined by the city based on characteristics of thespecific PuD. Parking lots and driving lanes sha1l be setback at least 20 feet from all exterior 1ot lines of a pUD.
The setback for parking structures including decks and rampsshaIl be 35 feet fron locaI streets and 50 feet from all other
4
70t
s)
h)
i)
i)
k)
street classifications except that in no case shal1 thesetback be less than the height of the structure. Parkingstructure setbacks from external lot lines shall be 50 feet orthe height of the structure, whichever is greater whenadjacent to residential property, 35 feet when adj acent tonon-residential properties. Parking structure setbacks frominternal public or private streets shall be deternined by thecity based on characteristics of the specific PUD.
where industrial uses abut developed or platted single fanilylots outside the PUD, greater exterior building and parking
setbacks nay be required in order to provide effectivescreening. The city council sha1l make a determination
regarding the adequacy of screening proposed by the applicant.
Screening may include the use of natural topography or earthberning, existing and proposed plantings and other featuressuch as roadways and wetlands which provide separation ofuses. PUDrs nust be developed in conpliance with buffer yard
requirernents established by the Conprehensive Plan.
More than one building nay be placed on
recorded lot in a PUD.
one platted or
At the tiBe PtD approval is sought fron the City, alt propertyto be included within a PUD shall be under unified ownershipor control or subj ect to such legal restrictions or covenantsas may be necessary to ensure compliance with the approved
master development plan and final site and building plan.After approval, parcela tlay be solal to other partie3 rithoutrestrictioD, horever, all parcels rill renaia subject to the
PgD developmeat contract that rill be recorded in each chain-of-title.
Signs sha1l be restricted to those which are pernitted in asign plan approved by the city and sha1l be requlated by
perrnanent covenants.
The requirements contained in Articles xxIII, ceneral
supplemental RegTulations, xxlv, off-street Parking and
Loading, and xxv, Landscaping and Tree Removal . uay be
applied by the city as it deens appropriate.
The uniqueness of each PUD requires that specifications and
standards for streets, utilities, public facilities andsubdivisions rnay be subj ect to nodification from the city
ordinances ordinarily governing them. The city council maytherefore approve streets, utilities, public facifities andland subdivisions which are not in coropliance with usualspecifications or ordinance requirenents if it finds thatstrict adherence to such standirds or requirenents is not
required to roeet the intent of this or to protect the heal,
5
1\
sectioa 2O-506. StaDdlards aDd
Detacbed PuDr 3.
safety or lrelfare of the residents of the PUD, the surrounding
area or the city as a whole.
No building or other perroit shall be issued for any lrork onproperty included within a proposed or approved PUD nor sha1l
any work occur unless such work is in coropliance rrith the
proposed or approved PUD.
Guideliaes for SiDgIe PaDily
a) Uiainum Lot Size - lIhe siDgle fanily resideDtial PI,D aIIosEIot sizes dosD to a niairuu of 91000 square f,eet. Theapplicaat Dust deDoDstrat€ that th6r6 are a nix of lot sizescoDsistent rith locaI tsrraiE coaditioas, pres€rvatioD ofDatural features Erd ope! space aDd that lot sizes areconsistent rith average buildiDg footpriats that rill beconcurreatly approved yith the PUD.
b)
c)
d)
Itininum Lot riath - 50 f€et at light-of-yay.
ltininum Lot Deptb - 100 feet.
Miainum SetbacLs!
PIrD ExteriorFro[t Yaral
Rear Yardside Yardt
Accessoly Buildings aad Structures - locateal adJacent to orbehird principal atructure a niniuum of 10 f€et froD propertyliae.
30
20
20
10
feetfeetfeetfeet
Ithe applicaDt nuEt deEoDstrate tbat the flexibility providedby tbe PUD is useal to protect ardt preservs natural features
Eucb as tree staDAs, wetlands, pordE and scenic vieys. Theseareas are to be perDaDently plot€ctea as public orprivater/connorly heldl and DaiDtaiDeal tracts or protected byperDanently recordeal easeDenta. ![he plaDDing coDmLssioD aDdcily Council riII naks a lteteluination regardting thesuitability of laDal to be a€t aside as open space. Open fietaareas, area ritb steep 8lopes .!d sniliar la[d rili only beaccepted wheD lald coataiaing Datural features described aboveis unavailabl€ iD the pUD. fhsre opeD fi6ld areas representthe only available optioa, these areas shalI be Laaitscapedaad/or reforesteal according to plaus approved by tbe citi.A miDinuE ot zs+ of the gross area of tte puo is to be letasiale ia these protect€d categorios. Irublic park space nustbe providled to meet or exceed requireEents est-abtisbed by thecity. Park ar€as nay be used Eo satisfy up to 2St of tlestandards. wetlaDals aad other rater bodies piotected by City
6
e)
f)
s)
1) Boulavaral Plautiags - f,ocated itr froat yaral areaE theseshall reguire a ni: of over-story trees aDal otherplantings coDsisteat rith the site. LaDalscapeA berDsshall b6 provided to screeD the site fron uajor roadrays,railroadg aBd Dore Lnteasive latral uses. t'eII desl.gDed
eatraDce DoDuneDt La raquired. In place of Dass gladiDgfor building paAs aid roada, stoDe or alecorative blockretaiuiag ralls shall be enployoal as reguired to pleserve
Eature trees aDd tbe gites Datural topography.
2'trouDdatioD Plaltiigs - I niaiuun budget for fouDdatioDplaDts 8ba11 b€ ostablisheal and approyedl by the Clty. As
each parcel is developetl ia tbe EgD, the buildler shall be
requireal to iDstall plant uat€rials neetiag or erceedingthe required budget prior to iesuance of certificate of
occupatrcy or provide fiaaucial guaraDtees acceptable tothe city.
3)Rear Yard - The rear yaral aball coDtaitr at least tso
over-story tlees. Preseryatioa of existi[g trees haviug
a alia.Deter of at least 5 inches at { feet Ln heigbt can
be used to satisfy this reguirenert.
.)Tree preservatio! is a E rinary goal of tbe PuD. n
atetailed tree surir€y Bhould be prepared duriag the designof tbe PIrD aDd the p1aDs ahoulal b€ A€velopell to naxinizetree preserratioa.
Architectural 8taltdalds - Ihe appllcaat should demoDstrat6that tbe PUD uit'l proviale for a blgh level of architectural
desiga aDd builaling naterials. Bhile this reguirereDt is aot
iDteDded to uiuinize deslga flexibtllty, a set of
arcbitectural covenants shoulal b€ ptepared for city approval.
The priEary purpose of this sectioa ig to asgur€ tha city thathigb quality alesig! ril1 b€ omployoal aDal that home
constructioB catr take place vl,thout variaaces or inpact to
adjoiBirg IotB. ![h€ covsBaDts .ahould iDcluae tba folloriDg:
1) EtaDdtardts for exterior architectural treatreDts.
2t A prohibitio! agaiDst free staudLDg garages. If aD
attached garage is to be cotrvartedl to living space at
soue tina in the futur€, tbe applicaDt .rill have to
aleEoastrate that ther6 Ls sufficieDt rooD to acconEodate
a tso car garage ritbout variances to obtaia a pemit.
7
ordlinance aDA pelnaDeDt €aseBent caD also be usedl to satiEfy
up to 25t of this staDdard.
eD overall landscaping plan is reguireil. lfbe plan sball
coutain the followlDg:
3)
{)
Section 2O-5O7. Controls
completion.
A requireneDt that applicarts for buildliag peruits berequired to denoDstrate that there is sufficiert rooD to
accoEnodate a DiDimum of a L2. z L2t deck yithout
variances.
Guideliaes regulating tLe placeEeDt of air couditioners,
dog keDrels, atorage buildiags aDd other accessory usesthat coulA poteltially Lnpact adjoiniDg parcels due tosnalI Iot sizes.
during construction and following
a) The use of the land the construction,alteration of any buildings or structures
governed by the final developnent plan.
uodi ficationin a PUD shaIl or
be
b)
c)
2)
After the certificate of occupancy has been issued, no changesshaIl be nade in the approved final developnent plan for a PUD
except :
1) Any ninor extensions, alterations or nodifications of' existing buildings or structures may be authorized by thecity planner if they are consistent with the purposes andintent of the final plan. No change authorized by thissection may increase the bulk of any building structureby nore than ten (10) percent.
Any building or structure that is totallysubstantially destroyed nay be reconstructed only
cornpl iance with the final deveLoprnent plan unles'sanendnent to the final development plan is approved.
orin
an
3) Changes in uses, any rearrangenents of lots, blocks andbuildiirg tracts, changes in the provisions of corDDon openspaces, and aI1 other changes to the approved finaLdevelopnent plan nay be made only after a public hearingconducted by the planning connission and upon finalapproval by the city council. Any changes shal1 berecorded as anendments to the final developnent plan.
Major arnendments to an approved Easter developnent plan may beapproved by the city . council after review by the planning
commiss j.on. The notification and public hearing proce-dure foisuch anendnent shalI be the sane as for appioval of theoriginal PUD. A najor arnendment is any anendnant lrhich:
L) Substantially alters the location of buildings, parkingareas or roads i
2) Increases or decreases the number of residential dwellingunits by more than five percent i
8
3)
4)
s)
section 20-516.
Section 2o-5L7.
Section 20-518.
Section 20-5L9.
fncreases the gross fLoor area of non-residentialbuildings by nore than five percent or increases thegross floor area of any individual building by more thanten percent i
Decreases the amount of open space by more than fivepereent or aLters it in such a lray as to change itsoriginal design or intended usei or
creates non-conpliance with any special conditionattached to the approval of the Daster development p1an.
Division 2. PROCEDITRES
Preapplication conference.
General Concept PIan.
Developnent Stage.
Fina1 Stage.
9
CAN4PBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCFIS, P.A.
Thomas J. Campkll
Roger N. Knuts.,n
Thomas \'1. Scon
Cary G. Fuchs
James R Valston
Ellion B. Knetrh
RNK: srn
(6ll) 456-9519
Fax (6ll) 456-9541
Uay 5, 1991 RECEiUED
MAY 0I 1991
0lTY 9r t nnrrntrtsENI{r. Paul Krauss
chanhassen city EaII
690 Coulter Drive, B,ox 147
Chanhassen, l{innesota 553L7
RE: Draft P.U. D. ordinance
Dear Paul:
f have reviewed the draft P.U.D. ordinance and have thefollowing conments and suggestions:
1. 20-501(c) shouid the reference to rrcomprehensive planrr be
changed to itcomprehensive park planrt?
2. 20-503(A). rtNet acresrr should be defined.
3. 2O-505(I). The sign restrictions should be in the
developuent contract not the covenants. The City does not enforce
covenants.
1. 20-505(f). Correct the tlT)o in the last line on page 5.
5. 20-505. Delete the reference to rrguidelinesrr.
5. 20-505(D). This elirninates the possibility of .r0rr 1otline projects.
7. 20-506(c). Rather than relying on covenants lrhich theCity canrt enforce, the reguirenents shouLd be in the developmentcontract.
Very truly yours,
cAI.{P
&
LL, KNUTSON, SCOTT
cHs, P.A.
R er N. Knutson
Yankee Square Office III . Suite 202 . 3460 Washington Drive . Eagan, lv{r,\ 55122
Attcmer's at Las
CHANHASSEN PLANNTNG COHMISSION
REGULAR HEETING
HAY 1, 1991
Chairman Emmi ngs
HEI.IBERS P RESENT :
Joan Ahrens, and
HEI.TBERS ABSENT :
ca]led the meeting to order at 7135 p.m..
Tim Erhart, Ladd Conrad, Annette EIIson, Steve Emmings,Jeff Far ma kes
Brian BatzL i
STAFF PRESENT :PauI Krauss, P1anning Director and Jo Ann Olsen, SeniorPlanner
PUBLIC HEARING:
PRELI MINARY PLAT TO SUBDIV IDE A 39.SOUARE FOOT PARCEL INTO TI.'O S INGLEFAMILY LOTS I.JHIC H I.IILL REOU IRE A LOT REA AND LOT I.IIDTH VAR IANCE ( LAK SHORE
I"I I DTH ) oN PRoPERTY ZONEO R SF. RESIDEN IAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 6541MINNEHASHTA PARKI.IA Y. KEN LUND AND DANA JOHNSON ,I.IASHTA BAY C OURT ADDITI oN-
PubIic Present:
Nam Addr ess
Jo Ann oJ.sen presented Lhe staff report oncalled the public hearing to order.this item, Chairman Emmings
Dana Johnson: I'm Dana Johnson.I Live at 5301 Greenbriar in Excelsior,
Ken Lund
Dana Johnson
Charles Anding
Tom Kr ueger
Joan Simpson
395 Hwy 7
6301 Gr ee nbr i ar
6601 Hinneurashta Par kway
3860 Linden CircIe
5560 Hinnewashta Par kway
Ken Lund: I'm Ken Lund. I live just down the stree! at 395 Highway 7.
Dana Johnson: l.lell first of alr r want to thank you for Lhe opportunitytodav to be abre to come in here and talk about the variances here and soforth. Ken Lund and I have lived in the area for quiLe a few years. Kenhas lived here for 25 years- I've lived here for 15 years. !.Je do bothhave lake access on the Lake Hinnewashta at this present time so we haveenjoyed lhe lake quite a bit and knou the surrounding area quite r^rerL also.t^le know that hie are a little short. 12 inches on both lots on the lakefronLage and the size of a walk in closet on the existing 20,OOO squarefoot per Iot. It isn't a lot obviously but we still don,t meet it. [^le,rehere today basically jus! to kind of plead our case to see if you wiII okaythe variances. One of the things about it is, first of aII ue're noLdevelopers. We're not in here to make any big money on this. tJe're just
here Lo try and build two existing sinsle family homes. Build it wiLhpride and take pride in the 1o!, The Lots that are around there righL now.
One of the things too is that we are squeezed in between the Iake and theroad and that's one of the hardships ure've got here also in trying to make
Planning Commission Meet i ng
llay 7, t99t - Pase 2
Emmings: Why don't
dourn .
you just give them to Tim and then he can pass them
Dana Johnson: The first three are the existing home and then the rest are
around the area. The houses next door and behind it. Every which way.I'm not a professional phoLographer so. RiSht now the house has been
vacant for a couple years. It is in poor condition in this point and we
would demolish the house and put i! up. And you know you taLked about theIot next door to it too. I take pride in the things that I do and even thecreek, the creek is fuII of bot.lles. FuIl of cans that people have thrownin there. That could be cleaned up also. I definitely would be takingcare of even though it isn't on my property, I would improve the ]ook ofthat also. There's a snowmobile trail right along side that that a Iot ofpeople toss stuff a.long as they're going a.Long the lake. At one time too,there are tr,Jo sewer and water hook ups on that piece of property.
Emmings: It's slubbed in from the street?
Dana Johnson: Right .
be dividable. In factIot, they do an aerial^I don't know what it's
one point f'm sure wayactual Lots. tJe could
So at one time Lhe city engineers thought that could
when f took, I went and when I did my survey on thatvieu of the city water. I saw an aerial view of it.called. There were actually Lhree on there so at
doun the Iine they had this divided up into threeonly state that there's two because.
they purchase the association access next to Lhisfeet .
Farmakes: tlho purchased the associaLion access next to the property?
Dana Johnson: I 'm sorry .
Farmakes: Fromproperty? It's
Farmakes:
.rbout 30
whom? Itthat home
whom did
about 3O
There's a fenced access just Lofeet wide and it goes doun Lo Lhe
Iooks Iike the lot was purchased
is.
Dana Johnson: You mean in the, lhere's two lake associations.
the south of the property. It'sIake. Do you know who, from
from the properLy owner where
the amount of the frontage and Lhe square footage a]so, can I approach the
bench? r do have some pictures. I don't know if anybody's been out there
to see the home, The surrounding homes., I bren! out and took some pictures
of the house Lhat's existing there and you know, it's not in great shape at
aII. It's got holes in the roof on one of the out buildings that are on
Lhe lot. It was built r^ray back in the 4o's so it's a pretty old home.
I've taken pictures of the surrounding homes around there. t^,hat He want Lotry to do is kind of make the area a IiLLIe bit better looking by
developing two lots there. Nohi you can also say that it could be just, you
can build one home there. tlell, if somebody came in there, they could come
in there. Keep the exist j.ng home that is there right at this point andIive in it the uray it is because you can Iive in that home. So thatexisting structure could still be there if you deny us our permit or not.But I did take some pictures of it..
Planning Commission Meeting
Play 1, 1991 - Page 3
Ken Lund: I don't think so, I think the person who had the land acrossthe street, because r know years ago, r remember when thaL uas for sale. rthink that person had land across the streel actually had a 30 foot access.He actuarly owned his rand right across the street and when he deveropedthat property, the people that lived across the streeL had their own littreaccess to the lake.
Dana Johnson: [^te've even pursued it on one side of lhe, there,s accesseson both sides of our lot. One,s about 5O feet on the creek side and thenobviously the larger access. [,Je even went as far as to pu]l the deed onthe creek side to see who actually owns that to try to even purchase that"
Due Lo the fact that there's about 50 names on it and it says in theschmidt rract which is B which is across TH 7 and there's a number of homesin there. The deed really wasn't very clear because there wasn,L anysingle name on that that we could go actually right to that person and askthem that. It just says the Schmidt Tract and the deed is dated back in19, what was it 13 or something like that? 1914. It u,,as a real old deed.
Ken Lund: No, no. The abandoned home to the north, there,s the littletiny parcel between that and the house Lhat we're dealing with right now.
Farmakes: oh, the weLland area there?
Ken Lundr Right there.house. Lake access for
Da na
Ken
Lhat
It's a little 50 foot tract that, it's like a gatepeople from the Schmidt Acre.
Dana Johnson: Which is across the street from TH 7
Ken Lund: By Minnewashta Church.
Dana Johnson: By CaLhcart. Up that r.,ay.
Ken Lund: In fact somebody had menLioned to us that if we could purchase
one foot of that from them, then we'd meet the requirement. tle went downto the County. They said that it t^rould take a long time and a lot of
paperwor k and a lot of legal to try to do that because they didn't have areal clear deed owner on that property. It belonged to too many people and
r^rent back too long. Nobody rea1ly claimed it. They said actually we couldclaim it or go after it but it.
Johnson: It urould be a year and
Lund: It would take about a year
one foot Lo make the lots legal.
pr obab 1y
to do it
Loo
and
much money for us.
a lot of money to get
Dana Johnson; But basically you knotr, it is a small variance and I hopeyou take a look at it. This is Ken and I's kind of first dream to be ableto afford to get on the lake. t^,e see it as a great opportunity and wereally believe tha! r,:e can better the area with tr,lo homes on tha! insteadof one because aluays remember, somebody can jusL move in there and just
Farmakes: This is the abandoned home to the north?
Planning Commission Meet i ng
May 1, t99t - Page 4
redo the inside and keep the outside the way it looks' as you just saw "
Thank you.
Emmings: Okay, !hanks. This is
here uho urants to speak on this?
a pub].ic hearing. Is there anyone else
Please come up.
Charles Anding: My name is Charles Anding. I live next door to the
association lot. 5601 Hinnewashta Parkurav. I understand ulhat you folks
are saying. I do have some concerns however and I would like to make one
correction. You stated Lhe home had been vacant for over 2 years.
Dana Johnson: Year and a ha]f.
Charles Andi.ng: I think it's closer to about a year but it has been
for a periocl of time but the property has generally been fairly well
care of. There is again one out building that does sit next to the
association ]ot that has for a number of years that I've looked at it
hoLe in the roof. I think it was from a collapsing chimnev" I can't
about the actual house itself. A coup.Le Lhings that I wanted to make
Lhe Planning Commission was aware of. On the south side of their lot
running along the, ruhal do you folks call youselves? Linden Circle
Assoc iaLion?
vaca nt
ta ken
,a
spea k
sure
Tom Krueger: Minneurashta Creek 2nd AddiLion Association.
Charles ending: Okay, lahatever i.t is. The folks up Lhere crff of Linden
Circle, Linden Drive. There's a drainage area thal runs from along theproperty line there about 5 or 10 feet into their lot that of course would
be of concern. That's a naturaL drainage area to the lake and I would be
concerned about deveLopment affecting that drainage area. Number two point
that l would just like to point out. That this property sits on a very
smal] bay. If you were out there today you probably would have seen Lhe
amount of curve along that shoreline and I ]ive inside of that curve alongwith my neighbor on the south of me and we've found that the traffic Lhat
woul^d occur on the lake would be difficult wj.th the docks coming out from
t{^ro properties in that small bay and that ue aII have to have Lhis shared
area off the end of our docks. I'm fearfuL that if we put turo lots inthere and extend docks off of that area, which is a very shallour area,
those docks are going to extend quite a ways and it's going to cause moreof a congestion problem on the lake Lhan what we'd probably like to see outthere. I've talked to my wife. I've talked to a few of the other
neighbors and generally we're concerned about Lhis particular splitoccurring. Of course we can't make a recommendation- OnIy express our
views but we are concerned about it.
conrad: Your last comment, It's hard for me to track Hhat you just said,
C har Ies Anding:
Risht.
Andi ng :
ve of the
About the bay?
Conrad:ExpLain that a different way for me-
Char Iesthe cur
I don't know if
bay better than
fol ks
cour se
have
what
these th i ngsthis does up
but that showshere. But
you
of
Planning Commission Meet i ngllay 7, 1997 - Page 5
what we're saying is Lhat the way this bay, the smarr curve in the rakeforces us to essentialry, the way the docks would have to point to get outtowards the deeper water. rf you extended them another 50 feet wourd bevery close to each other at the end. I guess is what I,m trying to state.Recognizing thal the association rot in here doesn't have the ability toput in a dock, it would still cause a congestion of boat traffic out hereat this specific point. Mv onlv point being that if we have to split tha!into two rots, r assume that there uould be Lwo docks coming out there.
Conrad: From a motor standpoint?
Charles Anding: There is one other point I'd Iike to make. If you look ata]l the homes along in this area, we,re aII running minimum, minimum of Ithink of 12o foot lots out there so the other consideration urould be thatif we go to something that's 75 or 85 feet wide, it,s not going to befollowing the context of the rest of the homes along the shoreline.
Emmings: Is there anybody else that wants to address this?
Tom Krueger: f'm Tom Krueger. I live at 3860 Linden Circle which is just
up the street going to the Nest or on the top of the chart. I,m the thirdhouse back. I did look at the property. I did puL a bid in on it on thebasis of a singJ.e family dr^relling. That was based on the fact of seeingPauI Krauss who basically said that the lot was really not splitabJ.e. It
was also based on the aesthetic poinl of view of the ]ot. From theaesthetics, no maller how you split Lhe Iot, one person's front yard endsup in another person's front yard. You end up wilh very lilLle privacy andyou can put a ni.ce little house on each lot. You can put up a 2 cargarage. l,Jith the road improvement going up, you're ]eft with a house that
r,Jould not be of the same size and the same aesthetics as the other houseson the lake which is r,rhy I gave up looking at splitting Lhe property oranything Iike that and going in on a single family dwelling. The beach tothe south, we've applied a number of times for a dock through theassociation. [^le've probably done it wrong both times. But we're learning
okay so we']I probably ge! there one of Lhese days. It is a 60 foot piece
of property already. Not 30 feet. So there in that case you'Il end upwith three 6O foot separations or Less between docks maybe eventually whichis a concern to us. AIso a concern is r.riLh that many docks and in thatarea, it is a swimming beach. We have 40 chiLdren up in lhat area. In theAddition up there. For matter of reference, the Additioir and the outlotfor the beachlot and the separation of Lhe other properties to the south
were part of the Burkee esLaLe which is the older house up on the hill withthe pillars, Kind of kitty corner off and away. So considering all andI placed my bid in and everyLhing, not having uron of course but still it
would seem to me Lhat common sense would prevail and a single familydwelling would be allowed there considering the properLy, the association,the creek drainage. I don't think buying a foot on the other side of theproperty does anything because the creek is still there and thaL confusesthe issue. The association supports 36 f amil.ies. There are 40 children inthere and the number of docks would definitely concern us with the numberof boats in there and the traffic that thaL wouLd bring, Thank you.
Emmings: Thank you .
Planning Commission Meet i ng
May 1, 1991 - Page 6
Joan Simpson: Hi, I'm Joan SimPson. I'm at 5560 Minnewashta Parkway. I'm
Lhe pink house on Lhe hiII . t^,le've only lived there 2 vears and I
understand what you say that you want to bring the old home up. Lo standards
for the area because it is an old home. I think one nice home would bring
the area up to slandards because I think there is a lot of homes that have
area on the Iand and I think trving to PuL Lwo homes on that Piece of Iand
will make it very crouded. Speaking from the association that iust talked,
as I am a member and just talkins with the PeoPIe that I have who a lot
aren't in attendance, there's a large dissatisfaction Nith the idea of
splitting the land. t^Je don't have the sav in wheLher it's split or not but
the dissatisfaction is very prominent from the members. As far as leaving
lhe house as it is, you know how can we sav thaL that's t,hat would happen
or nol? It would depend on who moved in. Hopefullv it would be brought up
to standards and I would imagine at some point it would be. I have
attended an estate sale there and I have gone in and it is very liveab.Ie.
It's very small but it is very liveable and I think just as a
recommendation, I would say I would jusL hoPe to see one home 9o in.
Speaking for the association. Thank you.
Emmings: Thank you. Are there any other comments from the public? Do you
want to respond or say something else? Go ahead.
Dana Johnson: I'd like to address a couple of those issues. Speaking of
the dock situation. Number one, u,e've already talked about just putting
one dc,ck out there in the firs! pIace. You know I've lived on Lhe lake
Iong enough, for 15 years and that's what all of my neighbors have done.
Just put one dock out and that's exactly what I urould do too. You know
when you talk about, if you put one dock out is it going to crowd, is itgoing to hinder boat traffic or whatever? tJeII, there isn't any docks to
the right of it because it's all open Iand up there. If you Iook at thep]ot, there's no homes for probably 7OO-8OO feet of lakeshore. And theassociation doesn't have a dock eiLher at this point eilher. So basicallyI just wanted to address those Lwo issues on that. Again, you say dne homeor two homes. You say it's going to be crowded. t^lell, we can put on oneIot, ure can put a 50 foot home across on Lot 2 there to the left and on Lot1, we've already been Lo our builders and ue can put a 50 to 52 fooL home
on the other one so lhere's plenty of space to put a house that's up to thesizes of other homes in Lhat area. t"le're both talking about doingwalkouts. Two story homes so that will go righL along with the other homes
on the Iake also. I just uanted to address those issues that they broughtup. Thank you.
Emmings: Okay. Any other pub).ic commenL on this application? If not, isthere a motion to close Lhe public hearing?
Conrad moved,
favor and the
Ahrens seconded to close the public
motion carried - The public.hearing
of mind here, Join general?
hearing- All voted in
was closed
Ann or PauI, the surrounding lots onErhart:the Ia ke
my Prece
whaL size
For
are
Olsen: Hel. l they aII meet or exceed the 20,OOO square feet.
PLanni ng Commission Meet i n9
l4ay 1, \991 - Page 7
Erhart: 30 , OOo?
Olsen: tlelI the ones nearreal big but lhey meet the
it are closer Lo 20,OOO to 30,OOO. They,re not
Erhart: And the general frontagelots would be what?
on the lake would be, on the surrounding
olsen: Area ri.ght. t here?
Erhart: lile I I yeah . Down the Iakeshore there .
really vary. But the ones that have homes on them,1OO. Around that. Hore than 75. A lot of the Iotslittle strips that will never be buildable sites.
Olsen: l^JeI I t heyof them have likejust those nar r oN
some
Erhart: You say that there's a lot of lots there that are unbuildable?
O]sen: There's some, if you 're saying hJhat's real.LyMinnewashta. Like where Stratford Ridge was. Do you
of, iL's just a narrow strip on Minnewashta Parkway.
going on
r emember
around La ke
how a lot
Er hart : Oh you
the 1a ke?
mean narrow Lhis way? Okay. NoL narroul perpendicular to
O]sen: Right.not bui ldable .
There's no depth so those have a loL of widLh but they're
Erhart: okay, I'Il teII you a couple of things concern me about !his. Oneis the fact that it's next to a recreational beachlot I think has an impactin that I think we really want to try to keep houses as far away from thebeachlot as possible to avoid conflict. Here we have a situation whereactualLy we're really encouraging someoDe to build a house closer to thebeachlot. The beachlot to Lhe south. The second thing is, the effectivewidth of Lot l real]y is about, it looks to be abou! 60 feet. If you Lookat the piece that comes down. The flag so to speak. ReaI perpendicular
width is only about 50 feet there even though when you get down the Iot
because of the angle it may be 75 feet. Plus part of that is being
absorbed by the setback from the creek. I just don't think this is a twolot parcel. I guess I r,rould be opposed to the spliL.
Conrad: The creek. Does that creek, what's the value of the creek?
Olsen: It's an outlet to the ]ake and it's important enough Lhat the DNR
has marked it as a protected creek. So that selback is to maintain open
space around that.
Emmings: Lake MinnewashLa outf ]or^,s to Lake Virginia by thal creek.
Conr ad r Outf I oh,s?
Emmi ngs: Yeah .
Planning Commission l'4eeting
$ay 7, 1991 - Page I
Erhart: Excuse me but what's on the north side of the creek
Olsen: The north side of the creek is that little strip thaL
access for SchmidL Acre across the street. It's nol a trout
anything Iike that but it's Protected.
Conrad: So lhe 50 feet is from where on lhe creek?
olsen: see where it's righl on the top.
conrad: Are you able to build, would you build 50 feet araay
conrad: I have to go back to the context that these }ots are
are Lhese smaller than what we would see i.n the neishborhood?
asked you the same queslion.
pr ov i des
stream or
from the
Dana Johnson: Sure. I've already done, 1'm just going without Lhe
variances at this point and that's the uay I'm assuming Lhat I'm not going
get the varj.ance on the 5O foot and made my Plans accordingly to buiLd 50
feet from the creek. f can build a home 50 feet from the creek no problem.
No problem at all" If it would have been a Problem, f wouldn't be here
tonight. Believe me.
then?
ln.
And
Jo Ann ,
I rm
olsen: Yeah. All the other lots do meet the requirements. They all mee!
the 2O,ooo square feet. They alL have the 75 foot at the ordinary high
water mark. That's where ue measure at ]east withi.n the 5oo feet. No!
across the streeL. No. But along the lake, yes.
conrad: And to the soulh we have the
lots that really don't have houses on
and then we have a lot ofbeachlotir.
Conrad: O kay ,thanks.
a location map if you uant to Iook.
I Iooked at that Jo Ann.
Olsen; f have
Conrad: Yeah,
Olsen: tlell no. Just to the south you do have homes and those do all
exceed the 20,ooo. It's as you go down.
Emmings: Ladd? Maybe I can fiII you in. As you go south from thisproperty there's Lhe beachlot. And then I'm not sure how many homes thereare. There's 5 or 6 homes and you get down to a couple more beachlots andthen it gets narror'Jer and narrower until you get down to Cedar Cove.
Remember when ule did Leach's thing and then you've got Red Cedar Pointthere. And to Lhe north of this property there are Iarge undevelopedtracts for probably, there could be 8OO feet of shoreline or more. I don't -really know hor^r much but it's a big piece, There's 3 or 4,3 tracts inthere that I think are totally undeveloped. And then you get around to
r,rhere I Iive and in there it's, on the norLh shore they're, I have 1OOfeet. My neighbor has 15O and there's a lot of 1OO foot size. Lots inthat area.
PIanni ng Commission Meet i n9
Hay 1, l99t - Page 9
olsen: It kind of gets confusing, But they all, this would definitely besettins a precedent.
Erhart: If I could interrupt.the normal setbacks, how many
bui I dabLe?
is, on a 15,OOO square. foot lotfeet do you normally have there
t, hat
squar e
with
that's
Olsen: tlith the regular setbacks?
Erhart: Yeah.
Olsen: Quite a bit of it because you only have typically 3O foot.
Erhart: Let me ask you this. Is the area that you 've got on there Lhat's
buidable, younve got the lines drawn. That area, is that bigger than,
significantly bigger than a normal buildable area in a 15,ooo square fooL
Iot?
Olsen: On Lot 1?
Erhart: No, when you combine the two.
olsen: The whole two?
Erhart: Yeah. That would be what? Significantly bigger than the
buildable area on a, weII.
O]sen: UelI that 50 foot setback cuts in.
Erhart: NeI I yeah. That's what I'm saying.
so I don't know that you would haveOlsen: And lhe 75 foot setback too
significantly larger than tyPicaI.
Erhart: Because of the setbacks, there just isn't that much buildable area
left and then to lake that and divide it in two. Is r.lhat vou're reallv
dividing in half.
conrad: I guess in context, and Steve I'm going to ask you a question. In
context wiII this be out of Place?
Emmings: On that stretch? l.JelI, Lake Minnewashta
it like Red Cedar Point r.rhere Lhere are a bunch of
don't know how wide the lots are there. I exPect
but I don't realLy know that.
has o]d
nar r oH
development onIots. And I
somewhat nar rowerthey 're
Ken Lund:
Emm i ngs :
Ken Lund:
. - -40 foot lots
Yeah but a lot of
over on Red Cedar Point.
them have -
of them are 60.40 to 50. Most
Planni ng Commission Meet i ng
Hay 1, 7991 - Page 10
Emmings: ft appears to me some of those have been
so they're double wide so I'm noL clear on exactlyit's also a situation where it's narroul beachlots.
say their's is 50. Is Lhat risht?
combined over the years
how wide they are and
You know we have, they
Tom Krueger: That's cor r ect .
Emmings: You knoN and we know that the Hinnewashta Heights is 25 or, i!'svery small. So there's kind of a mixture. But these are smaller than thetypical Iot on the north, that exists on the north and west side I wouldsay, yeah.
Olsen: On the north and r,lest side?
fmmings: Yeah.
Olsen: Yeah.
Conrad: Okay. I guess I've been trying to rationalize the split because
when things are so close, I want to give the applicant every opportunity to
make i! happen. If it's 2O,OOO square feet, you miss it by a few feet, I'mnot too concerned, I'm Iooking for the intent of the square footagerequirement. f'm looking for context of how things fit. And I still canbe persuaded by the rest of the Planning Commission urho actually Iapologize for not visiting this site. I should have. I think that urouldhave made me feel a lot more comfortable uith what f'm going to say but I'mlooking for the rationalization and it's lookine Iike Ne're trying tosqueeze Loo much out of the property right now with the setbacks. And
based on what I'm hearing on the context of where it's fbund and my concernwith the creek. I guess we don't have Lhe control over the creek andvariances and I don't Nant to see a variance on the setback to the creek. Isimply don't. I Lhink creeks are extremely valuable and if it's aprotected creek, I don't want to see that. tje dont' have control but mybiggest concern right nou, is that plus the fac! that it's looking Iikexe're trying to squeeze a little bit too much out of the property andtherefore unless somebody can persuade me another way, I would vote rightnow not to grant the variances.
Emm i ngs: Annette?
E]fson: I agree r^,ith these tuo gentlemen.think it's just too much in a small space
enough reason to give a variance.
don't have anything new. Ithere's not really a good
I
and
Emmings: Jeff?
Farmakes: I !.ent out to the property Loday and had a look at iL. 'ft's anice lot but r do think it's a single home rot. r guess d disagree thatthe house that's on there is to be described as an abandoned piece ofproperty. The house is relatively in good shape from ulhat I could see.The shed does has a hole in it but it,s an out building shed. It wouldseem to me that if you took the park away which is now a very narrow road,and saw that in the future as being widened so it actuarly has a shoulder
Planning Commission Meet i ng
May 1, L99f - Page 11
on it, those cars would be coming aurfu).Iy close to your fron! door. Andthese setbacks as it stands now.may r.rork but r Lhink it'd be a real problemin the future if they do widened that road. f can,t see anywhere on thework that the sLaff did here. It says a variance can be granEed by theBoard of Adjuslments and Appeals and City Council only if aII of theforrowing criteria are met and there are severar criteria that you're notmeeling. rt's noL just a wark in closet issue. There are severa] issues"A lot of them have to do r think wiLh the urorth of the property and r Lhinkif you put two pieces of, turo homes in there and make tu,o loLs out of that,that it certainly would be beneficiaL because I think some of thesurrounding homes tha! are there would not fit into that category. They,reIarger homes with more space around them and r could see uhere it could bean advantage to the person who's splitting that lot but again, I think itwould be a disadvantage to the surrounding homes. r think it should be one1ot.
Ahrens: Jo Ann, is
olsen: On the south
Ahrens: Risht . Is
there any, there uas a drainage issue raised here.
side?
that?
O]sen: The engineering department didn'L poinL that out. We did go out tothe site. If there's actually a drainage area on this Iot, we would wantto protect it with an easement. f can't say. Do you reca]l it being onthis lot or is it on the recreational beachlot?
Resident; No, it's on this ]ot. Right along the south border of that ]ot.
That 'sOIsen: tje didn't notice it.
somethi n9 r"re didn't notice.
l,,e can go ou! and check it again.
Ahrens: fs that something that was just maybe missed on the report? I'dIike to knour Lhat because I'd like to recommend approval of this. I thinkthe variances are very small I think these people are going to go out andbuild houses that are not going to fit in. I mean they're going to spendalot of money !o build houses on these lots. They're no! going to build
something that's going to be an eyesore for the rest of the communiLy. Ithink that the idea of the shared dock meets the concerns of, or just one
dock was going to be shared, meets the concerns of Lhe neighbors thatthere's going !o be loo much traffic on Lhat one area. Variances are just
so small here. On the other hand I hate to set a precedent for the nextperson coming in saying weII our lot's only 2OO feet smalLer than the lotthat you just approved. But this is so close and I think that if theythink that they can build a nice house on Lhese IoLs, I don't see how uecan say that no, they can't build a nice house on Lhese lots. I mean whatkind of standards are we using anyway? I would though like to see, I don't
know if hre can do this. Can He set as a condition of approval that that 50foot setback from the creek be maintained? That no variance be approved?
[^Je can't do anything Iike that?
Emmings: ft's a different body.
Planning Commission Meet i ng
May 1, t99L - Page !2
Conrad: That's the problem, we have no control .
Emm i ngs ;
tel I them
t^ielL we do. It's lhe Board of AdjusLments and I guess
that Lhat's the way ure feel about it but t,hat they d.o,
we could
they do..
Krauss: I think you could put in a condition. It wouldn't firmly
future action. However, it tlould clearly state that the intent in
this 1ot was noL to create additional vari.ances.
olsen: Risht, buL they can still aPply.
Ahrens: They could stiLl apply but if we had clearly as one of
conditions that they had to maintain that setback, how likelv is
they will say r.relI we lhink it's good, r,re'1I allow a variance?
bind a
creating
ourit that
Ahrens:
on this.Hell that's the way I would go Nith it and I'd recommend approval
Emmings: okay. As for me, I Lhink t have to say, before I say anything
else that I know Ken and I know Dana and his family. My children play urith
his Dana's chi.Ldren and I don't think that matters to me. I've thought
about it quite a bit and I don't think I have any problem acti.ng on this
issue. l,Je're not close friends or anything like that, and we especiallywon't be after this. No. I basically adopt Joan's comments. I Lhink that
Lhe issues Lhat He have to look at, the variances bJe have to grant to alJ.ow
this subdivision I think are so small that I don't have any problem
supporling the proposal . It does seem like the Iots are a ]itt]e narrower
on the lake side than the lots immediately around it, although there's a]ot of undeveloped land and we don't know what's coming in on those and 75
feet is what's required so we can't really hold up a standards of 1OO or
125 feet because 75 feet is whaL the ordinance says. I think they're 9oin9to have difficulty buildins a house on LoL l buL if he says he can do it
and it satisfies them, then I don't have a problem permitting it. I don't
see urhy I should tell him he can't build a house there so I do support thesubdivision. The creek is an imporLant issue and I would support thenotion that no furLher variances should be granted. So r.rith that, arethere any other comments? Does somebody want to make a motion? Okay, time
out .
of
for the
Erhart: I'II move that the Planning Commission recommend denia.IPreliminary PIat *91-3 as shown on the p).ans daLed April I , L99Lreason stated. The subdivision creates two non-conforming Iots.
EIIson: I'II second it.
Emmings: Any discussion?
Krauss: rt shoots a hole in the argument that could be made that you
created a lot that's unbuildable uithout further variances-
olsen: It will definitely be a self-created hardship and they'lI have a
hard case.
Planning Commission f,leeting
llay 7, 1997 - Page 13
Erhart moved, EIIson seconded thatof Preliminary Plat *91-3 as shown
f ol lor,ri ng reason :
the Planning Commission recommend denial
on the plans daLed April 1, L99L for the
1. The subdivision creates two non-conforming }ots.
All voted in favor except Emmings and Ahrens urho opposed and the motioncarried uith a vote of 4 to 2-
Emmings: Denial is recommended by the Planning Commission. This will go
to the City Counci I ?
Olsen: May 2Oth.
Emmi ngs: On Hay 2oth
have too much else on
and you should follow it there. Alright. tle don't
the agenda.
APPROVAL OF HINUTES:Chairman Emmings noted the Minutes of the Planning
April 17, 1991 as presented.Commission meeting of
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE:
Krauss: There were relatively feur Council actions on the last agenda. The
Council did vote to approve the chemical toilet ordinance on a sPlit vote.
They did add a modification however thaL the Satellite units that be used
be designed to incorporate, I don't knor^r what the technical urord is but
it's the sump in the vent ]ine so that if it tips over that there's a
reservoir to catch the material. SatelIite told us that they designed Lha!
into their new ones anyway. tje changed the ordinance accordingly. tle
brought a proposal to the City Council to fund a Comprehensive sewer and
trater plan. This is a follow up to the relatively cursory look we Providedin the comp plan thus far to how He're going to serve the neH I'1USA area.
t^Je've been talking very seriously to several Parties, one of which you're
real familiar with, Lundgren who wants to Proceed with actual design.
There's another office,/industrial developer who's Iooking at three possibly
developmenls. Two certainly but possibly a third. And PeopIe are asking
us questions Like where do you Nant the sewer to run? t,here do you Nant
the u,atermain to come in from and ue don't have a real good handle on that
right now and we r^rant the City to be out in front of that issues instead of
playing catch up and trying to figure out if the developer's proPosal ulhich
is obviously good for the develoPer is good for the city in the long run.
t^le went out and got RFP's and brought them back to the Citv Council. The
city council authorized us to retain the firm of Bonestroo' Anderlick and
Rosene to undertake Lhese studies. tlhat we said is ue're going to hold off
on signing contracts until we get Metro Council aPProva] . Trying to
prudent with spending the money before Ne go. Bonestroo is working with us
right now on our comprehensive PIan aPPlication with the l'letro Council - In
Lhe absense of a city engineer, they've been helpins us resPond to
questions the Metro Council's been raising regarding sewer. In fact' they
reworked our entire sewer section and recalculated sewage flows which are
the critical number and using what they think is methodology that Mt^,,cc wiII
accept. They wor k for MtJcc on a lot of projecls. They've actually come uP
t,rith a much fower flow rate than had been anticipated originally in the
Planning Commission Heeti ng
llay 7 , 7991 - Page !4
plan. So iL looks better to Council at any rate. So we'II be going aheadwith them as soon as we hopefully get approval on the plan, June 8th has
been established as, it's a Saturday, as the date to have a bus tour andsort of a design shirette for the corridor. The TH 5 corridor. t^lhat we'reIooking to do is to get a bus, drive up and down the corridor. Get out andwalk around sites. Use some design professiona.l^s. Dick t,ing has been incontact with an individual from the Urban Design Studio at the U and we'vealso got, ue work with the firm of Barton-Aschmann on TH 5 improvementsnoN. tJe'll arrange to have individuals from both aboard. t^lhaL weenvisioned doing is driving up and dourn. tlalking around sites. Getting afeel for r^rhat the comprehensive plan says. Getting a feel for what you
intuitively think a property should be developed as and I think you get areal different perspective on it. It's different driving back and forthfrom the highway every day to actually going oLit and hiking around a siteand trying to vision forward what you think you might see. And then I'danticipate Lhat we'd come back to City HaII for an hour or so and haveLhese individuals do some sketches and Lhat this would serve as kind of akick off for further work on the corridor which uill probably Iead toordinances changes, etc., etc.. But this is really the initiation of thecorridor study that the Council asked for concurrent with the comprehensiveplan approval . I don't know arhat else f can say about that at this point.
t^lhat ule're going to do is invite the Planning Commission, Lhe City Counciland Lhe HRA to tag along on this so vou're all welcome and b,e'll be sending -out some official information with the details as soon as we have them.
Emmings: fn your report you apologized for not having, and I'm glad yousaid something about it. Some of the Lhings we've been working on.Landscaping ordinance r suppose you had in mind and the bluff ordinance andlooking at Bluff Creek. Looking at that valley in terms of it'spreservation and also r.rho was it? r think Tim mentioned making a greenwayor corridor out of Lhe whole Bruff creek flowage there. That seemed Iikean awfu].ly good idea but r^rhen can uJe expect to have those back on ouragenda PauI?
Krauss: t^lell, actuarry there's another announcement on that too. The sameLwo individuals who gave the presentation here went before the park Boardand the Park Board is equarry excited on preserving Lhe bluff. councilmant^ling is on Hondav nighL r believe going to request that they give a similarpresentation to the city councir so thaL can be carried forward. you mayrecalr that we asked them i.f we could work with them to set up a date tohike through a portion of this to give people a hands on feer. They verymuch feel that it's useful to do this in May instead of in June. The cityCouncif Hon't get to hear this officially until sometime in June with theirschedure with Lhe propertv assessments and aII that. They think that Hayis the icleal month because it's not too buggy and it's not too overgrown.t^le're Iooking at Hav 11th which doesn't give you a whore rot of time buLagain it's a Saturday. t^,le're looking at, they're 9oin9 to do anabbreviated hike. rt's going to take about an hour. i've got to make somephone ca]Is to the golf course to get permission to park there and to r.larkin through their properly but if vou courd, those of you uho are familiar,frag your calendars for an hour's walk on a saturday morning and hopefullyagain we'lI get this, this wiII be a part of the process in getting thisgoi ng .
Planning Commission Meet i ng
Hay !, 7997 - Page 15
Conrad: Nhat day?
El lson: Satuday, May 11th.
Olsen: The ordinance itself is back on the next Planning Commission
agenda. It's a public hearing.
Emmings: okay, so we'll see the bluff ordinance on the next Planning
Commission meeting. How about the Iandscaping ordinance?
Krauss:
toni ght
Emm i ngs :
Krauss:
Emm i ngs :
Krauss:
Honestly I'm working on the PUD ordinance
and we're shooting to get that on the next
okay, so we have PUD.
And the bluff.
Is there any chance that you can get the
I don't want to promise Lhat. I'II try.
'Okay. I think we ought to get those out.
t^le haven't published it so it wouldn't be
Iandscapi ng one in too?
f irst.
a ge nda
That I was
too .
doing
Emm i ngs :
Kr auss :
try.
a formal one but I wiII
Emmings: Maybe if we could see another draft. Anything tha! will get it
done. We should get Lhose out of the uay because we're soon going Lo want
to start that 1995 study area and it'd be good to have those out of the way
since we've already addressed Lhem, it seems to me anyuay - Okay.
Krauss: tlhile we're in the business of marking calendars
update you on where we're at on the comprehensive PIan-
too, I .Nant to
Emmings: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in here. How's it going with Eden
Prairie?
Krauss: Up and down. I think we've reached some sort of a medium Position
with Eden Prairie. t^,ithout going into too many details, steve saut a leLter
tha! we got from Eden Prairie which raised a lot of issues that I felt were
a IiLtIe bit unusual about our plan. t^le had an opportunity to sPeak to
Eden prairie. Het r^rith their city Manager, the community DeveloPment
Director and some Engineering staff. Don Ashr,rorth and myself. They have
sent a letler to the Metro Council which is in your packet raising some
concerns but it's a much more abbreviated leLter than their initial one was
going to be- one concern that they raise that I think is a legitimate one
ina we,ve been trying to do some follo1a-up on is the fact that based uPon
the Eastern carver county study, He are talking about traffic being on
roads that Eden Prairie had never anticipated. And that doesn't only
affec! Eden prairie. IL affects Hennepin county. It affects Probably
Minnetonka. It affecLs shoreHood. It affects Excelsior. And I've been
trying to work with the county Engineer who headed up the Eastern carver
counti Study to go to the next step. The next step is to start a series of
Planning Commission Meet i n9
May 1, f99t - Page !6
meetings with all these agencies and with MnDot so we can come to
understandings about these things and get. things in work programs. Roger
Gustafson set up a meeting at the Melro Council last Friday r^riLh theirTransportation staff. I was in attendance and it was a productive meeting
and again I think it's going to get the process rolling. I don't EdenPrairie is raising any issues at this point tha! I find cause fundamenLalproblems with the pLan. At aLl. In fact, I've had a follow-up letter tothe Hetro Council. One of the concerns they raised uras, you may have readthere was an HRA brochure that was put out that seemed to indicate agreater amount of vacant land than h,e had indicated to the Metro Counciland I've sent a follow-up letter to the Metro Council basically outliningLhe fact that HRA's tend to be boosters of a community and Lhey tend tolook aL things in a certain light. For example there hras property like the
t^lard Estate which was shourn as available for industrial use. That's Lrueright now but as soon as the comprehensive plan is approved, it's not goingto be industrial anyulay. ft's going to be residential and commercia.l^. Andthere were some other discussions of individual properties and I did giveMetro council a letter of that that exprained it. My initial meeting withthe Metro Council was now about 3 weeks ago. I don't know if I told youabout that at the Iast meeting. There were 14 Hetro councir staff peoplein the room and there Has 3 of us. There was Mark Koegler, myself and anindividual who uJe're working with from Bonestroo, Bob Schunicht. The
comments we received on the plan are very favorable. r mean environmentallythey're telling us we're on the cutting edge. In fact they,re telling uswe're in front of the tJatershed District and aII this kind of stuff. Itgot down Lo we spelled the name of a slreet wrong...but Mike Munsoncontinues to be difficult in the manner that he has been to communities forthe last 15 years. Hike l'lunson refuses to amend his population oremployment forecasts. He admits that they're ulrong but he won't acceptthat we're right and he won't re-run his model for another year or two. Heactuarly kicked off the meeting by suggesting that we on).y come in for aone year MUSA or two year MUSA amendment until he can re-run his modelwhich r Ie! him know in no uncertain terms that that !.,,as outrageous andunacceptable and that everything we're doing is consistent with the Hetrocouncil policies. Dearing with the Metro council is kind of unique becausethev don't have consensus amongst themselves on how to deal with situationssuch as ours. Met again with their staff the following week and MikeMunson was more conciliatory. He is willing to go with the IH 2Lzforecasts which were above their original forecast bu! below what we hadthought. You recall ue used the three tier forecasting. 2L2 was the lowerrange. tlell 212 never, did not include any projections at al.l foremployment and they don't have any understanding or any grasp of how toproject forward on emp).oyment. l,Jhat they're doing though is using Lhe 2].Zforecast for household growth. l.le're lucking out on this one it appears atthis point. tJe u,ere so conservative. r think you may recall Iike whenLundgren wanted us to add 90 acres r said r didn't see a problem becausewe're coming in way under what we think we can justify anyway. tre were soconservative in what we were bringing into the HUSA that u,e can justifywhat we're bringing into the MUSA for residential land based upon those 212forecasts. on the matter of employment growth, Hunson did something venever seen him do before. He basically threw up his hands and saia, irChanhassen Lhinks they,re going to have 12,OOO jobs by the year 2OOS, Ihave no reason not to believe them. rf anybody could do it, they .orta.
Planning Commission Heeting
May 1, 7997 - Page !7
Erhartr [^,ho approves? Is it a person? Is it a vote?
Emmings: Do you get to be there and defend it?
Krauss: t^Je I Iprocess yet.
anything we ne
I'
I'
ed
m certainly going to be Lhere. I'm not sure of their
m assuming I get an opportunity to do that. If there's
to defend against aL that point. It's supposed Lo go to
the Metro Council itself on Hay 23rd for final action, I'd like you to
mark those days down on the calendars. If it seems as Lhough we need
support, if there's a problem, we'd like to call on a few people from the
CounciI, from the Planning Commission, major ProPerty ot,ners and develoPers
to be down there basicallv savins evervthing we've been telling you is true
and here's r"rhy. I'm not sure thaL that's going to be necessarv at this
point but I'd like to have that in our back Pocket. l^le've also been
spending a lot of time. one of the problems is tle're dealing with an
enlirely neu Metro Council. That's been in the press a lot lately for how
they interact with communities and pressure that the Governor's Placing on
them and the Metro Council itself is comprised of all new individuals with
a ner,l Chair. The Mayor and the City Hanager and myself had a meeting with
Bonnie Featherstone, who's our ner^r Melro Council rePresentative. tle took
her on a tour of the community and found her Lo be pretty suPPortive of
what we were doing and she seems to be a Pretty straight shooter - And as
f understand it on some issues, the first issues that she's been given to
work on, she's been very defensive of her communities which is good. The
Mayor also has set up a Iuncheon meeting with Mary Anderson, the new HeLro
Council Chair. Fortunatelv Don Has her neighbor in Go]den val]ey and knours
her fairly well. Hary Anderson, she was somewhat non-commiLal as you would
expect, She's not going to sav her staff is right or wrong or anything
else at this point but she also was receptive to the point of view thaL we
fostered and I guess the Premise that we're taking foruard is. Here's a
community that's done everything right. [^le've given you everyLhing that
you've asked for in a Plan. tle've taken self-initiative to resolve
environmental issues, to resolve transporLation issues. [,.1e're not asking
And I think they're going to leave us alone on the indusLrial . f remain
uncomfortable uith this thing and I wiII be until the day we get it
approved and I haven't seen anything in writing from their staff but it
Iooks now as thdugh they're trying to develop reasons to approve the plan
instead of the reverse which was oftentimes the Metro Council's position onthings.
Krauss: t^Jell, they follor.r a process that's a little analogous to ours.
They have a]l these different, except it's a bigger bureaucracy and they
have aIl Lhese different divisions. They have sewer. They hdve
transportation - They have airports. They have parks. They have housing.
They have Hike Munson in demographics. And then Lhey have a Iand use
section and all these deparLments go off in their own little world and
write their own reports and they oftentimes disagree with each other and
then they're supposed to pull aII this together in one recommendation. The
recommendation is supposed to go to, I think it's their develoPment
committee which is sort of, I guess if you will the Planning Commission for
the Metro Council. It's supposed Lo 9o to Lhem on May 15th. Thursday
a fter noon -
Planning Commission Meet.ing
May 1, t997 - Page 18
the Metro Council for a darn thing. [^1e're not saying spend one dol]ar morehere than you thought you urere going to spend in the first place and u,e'vegrown tr"emendously and been a job generator and have good residentialneighborhoods. tJe're the perfect example of everything the M_etro Councilshould be advocating. If they take a position trhere they're actuallytrying to hi.nder it, we'd like that to be as public as possible. But againat this point I'm quite hopeful that we're going to move ahead with few, ifany changes. t^,e'1]. know more in the next few weeks.
Emmings: Okay. I'd just like to bring people's atLenlion to, I spotted acase that came out of the Supreme Court and I brought a copy for paul butit basically said that a city council can refuse to issue a conditional usepermit on the grounds Lhat the use would be in conflict r^riLh thecomprehensive land use plan. Not Nith the ordinance h,riting but just evenwith the comprehensive plan. And maybe that,s nothing earth shaking but Ithink it's a good thing to know because we've talked about being able toresort to the intent of Lhe comprehensive plan to support decisions. Ibrought that for you. Alright. Does anybody have anything else?Otherwise ue're through with the agenda
conrad moved, Emmings seconded to adjourn the rneeting- Arl voted in favorand the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at g:4O p.m._
Submitted by Paul KraussPlanning D i r ector
Prepared by Nann Opheim
EH[I{H[SEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(512) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDI.]M
TO:
FROItl:
DATE:
SUBf:
Planning Connission
Paul Krauss, Planning Director
Uay 9, 1991
Report fron Director
CO},IPREHENSIVE PIAN I,TOYES TO rHE UETROPOLITAN COUNCIL
As you are alrare the l{etro council SysteBs Conrnittee is scheduledto hear our comprehensive Plan at 2:OO p.m. on Thursday, t{ay 16,1991, and the fuII council is supposed to act on it on I'qay 23,
L991, at 4:OO p.n. At the tine of rrriting, I have not yet rec-eiveda copy of the llletro Council Staffts recommendations. I continue toreceive assurances from thero that nost requested changes are ninor,but at this tine they have not yet completed their land consumptionanalysis which is the key to relocating the tilUSA line. If najorprobleros arise with the Metro Council Staffrs recorDmendations, I
want to be in a position to organize a good turn out by Conrtission
and Council nenbers, as well as najor land holders and developersaffected by the UUSA line decision. I wilL keep you posted andwill contact you individually by phone if need be.
At the City Council meeting on Monday, May 6, 1991, the fotlowingactions rrrere taken:
Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-263 regardingportab)-e chenical toilets on recreational beachlots was
approved on the consent agenda. The ordinance wilL bepublished and becone effective in approxinately one nonth.
Tom worlotran has applied for appointDent. to the RegionalTransit Board. You are probably not airare but there is anajor funding crisis being iroposed on local opt-out prograns
such as ours as a matter of RTB policy at the present tine.we are hoping to see Tom appointed to more adequatelyrepresent concerns of our region as well . as opt-outcorn'lunities in general. The council voted to support aresolution in support of his application on the consent
agenda.
1
2
CITY OF
3 The Council considered a prelininary plat to subdivide 9.14acres into 14 single fanily lots for Kurvers point 2ndAddition. As at the Planning Conmission neeting, issuesconcerning access uere of prinary concern. The discrission wasvirtually identical. Staff continued to recommend theconstruction of a loop street but failing that rre recoDnendedthe use of an energency access. We also believed that inlight of hazard conditions that presently exist and with thepotential elinination of the loop street, the existing curbcut on Hwy. 101 should be inproved to offer left turn lanesand by-pass 1anes. We noted to the Council that l,InDOT hasbeen typically reniss concerni.ng Hvy. 101 since essentiallythey donrt care. This position stems from the fact that thehighway continues to have a tenporary designation that datesback to the 1930s vhich does not al1ow the state to expend anyfunds significant inprovenents. The state continues to dunpHwy. 101 on nunicipalities and counties rdho are unwilling toaccept it in its present condition.
The Council ultinately voted to aIIow the cuI-de-sac optionproposed by the applicants .to proceed uithout an enertencyaccess. Staffrs recoEmendations regarding inprovenents to th;present curb cut will be studied and if found to be neededwill be required to be instatled by the applicant.
Amendment to site plan approval signage for Chanhassen MedicalArts. facility. Since the. planning -Conmission neeting, theapplicants proposed a third option. In the intere-st ofworking toward the planning Connission reconnendation, th-applicant agreed to.louer the heiqht of his requested' sijnfron 4 feet to 3 feet. He nade the case that 12 inch 1etteisin_a 3 r.oot sign were essential fron a technical =t."ap"i"i-i-aIIow for the construction of individuaL internaily Iialetters and 1ogo. He indicated that it is not tectrnicaiivfeasible to make then any snaller than this. statt coniinueito reconmend the planning Cornmissionrs conditions be aaopiea.-
After protractive discussion, the Council ultinately voted toallow the -sign package to proceed under the revis'ed "pi:.""requested by the applicant.
oning ordinance anendnent to clarify theas the Planning Director was appioved
4
6
First reading of the zZoning Adninistratorwithout discussion.
Report froD Director
Ilay 9, 1991
Page 2
5.
The.zoning ordinance. anendment t-o clarify water surface Usageordinance first reading. The ordinance ,-as anenated to crarifvbillings concerning ag;icultural, rural ."rii""iiii ;;J;;;;;iproperties. The revised ordinance assigns one unit of
Report fron Director
May 9, 1991
Page 3
7
assessment, equivalent to what a single fanily homeowner pays,
per tax parcel in these categories. Thus, if someone olrns 3agriculture lots, they would receive 3 utility biIIs. we
believe this is reasonable because these 3 lots Day include
anlrhrhere from 60 to 150 acres. Staff had received sorne
comment regarding the utility billing prograD. couments were
aLmost negligible until we sent the first bills out to therural area, which were the first bills they ever received frornthe city since they do not receive nornal uater and seter
services .
litoon VaIIey Aggregate Update. The city has been successful in
having uoon valleyrs suit contending that we have no authorityto require a pernit of then disnissed. we are now in theprocess of asking ttren to cornply with the ordinance by
applying for a peruit. In spite of the fact that it has taken
us a year and a half to get to this point with uoon Valley
being informed every step of the uay, Judge Kanning decidedthat }!oon valley deserves another 30 days to apply for apernit. I fulIy expect their application to be inadequate
which woutd then be the next battte we have to fight. I viewthis as being an extraordinarily 1ong, drawn out process since
you can expect that even after we do approve the pernit for
then they will contest the conditions attached to it. I annot sure that there is much coEmon ground on this matter. In
a neeting uith Ton Zniers two nonths ago, staff outlined forthe third or fourth tine what he needed to have on theapplication for a nining peruit. when we got to the issuethat tree stands nust be identified on the survey, l,!r. Zwiersessentially said why should I identify trees, everyone of thenis coning down anln ay. In addition, the Planning Cornmission
should be aware that any bluffline considerations in tenos of
new ordinances, probably will also affect Uoon va11ey since
they operate in this area. we are attenpting to coordinatethis new ordinance through the City Attorneyrs Office so that
he nay handle any questions that nay arise in this area.