08-21-91 Agenda and PacketFile
CALL ORDER
PUBLIC HEARII'3S
1. Rezoning. of property within the city zoned A2, AgriculturalEstate District to RR, Rura1 Residenlial Oistrict.
2. - Zoning ordinance Amendment to create a bluff line preservationsection to the City Code.
3 **ITEI,l DELETED**
Rezoni.ng of 90 acres of property zoned A2, Agricultural EstateDistrict to PUD, planned Unlt Developnent to create 10industrial lots Located south of the Chilago, IrliLwaukee, St.Paul and Pacific Railroad and east of Audubon Road, RyanConstruction.
4. zoning and subdivision ordinance anendment to amend sectionsregarding landscaping and tree preservation reguirenents.
NEW BUSINESS
APPROVAL OF UINUTES
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE
ONGOING ITEI,TS
ADMINTSTRATIVE APPROVAIS
OPEN DISCUSSION
5. Sign Ordinance Work progran.
AI}fOT'RNMENT
AGENDA
CHANHASSEN PI,ANNING COI,O,{ISSION
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 21,. L991 , 7:30 p.t!.
CHANTIASSEN CITY HALL, 690 COULTER DRIVE
CITY OF
EII[NH[SSEN
}TEMORANDIIM
TO:
rROM:
DATE:
SULT:
690 COULTER DRIVE ' PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
PLanning Conmidsion
Kathy Aanenson, Planner II
Augrust L2, L99L
Rezoning of Large Iot Subdlivisions Zoned A2, AgriculturalEstate to RR, Rural Residential
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9
ANALYS TS
The city currently has nine large lot subdivisions located outsideof the MUSA line and zoned A2, Agricultural Estate. The planning
Commission has discussed rezoning the large lot subdivisions fronA2 to RR for the zoning requirements to better reflect theircharacter. The following are the large 1ot subdivisions and anattached map shows their location:
Timberwood Estates
Sun Ridge Additioncountry Hi1ls
Pioneer HilLs
Lake Riley l{oods NorthRiley Lake Meadows
Deerbrook
Great Plains colf Estates
Hesse Farns
INTENT
The intent of the A2 District is preservation of ruraL characterwhile respecting development patterns by alJ.owing single fanilyresidential development. The intent of the RR District is toprovide for single fanily residential subdivisions intended forlarge 1ot developrnents. The nine large 1ot subdivisions, currentlyIocated in the A2 District neets the intent of the RR District noreso than the A2 District since they are single family residentialsubdivisions that are large lot developments identified as a
neighborhood separated from the surrounding agricultural land.
a,)t!t PRINTED ON BECrcLED PAPEB
Planning Cornmission
Rezoning of A2 to RR District
August L2, !991
Page 2
Permitted Uses
All of the pernitted uses are the sane betrreen the two dlstricts
except that arboretums are permitted in A2 and not the RR District.Since an arboretum will not be proposed within the large
subdivisions, the rezoning rri11 not affect the sites in regards topernitted uses.
Accessory Uses
Accessory uses are similar in both districts. Accessory
agricuJ-tura1 buildings and private stables are accessory uses in
the A2 District but not in the RR District. Storage building is an
accessory use in the RR District but not the A2 District.
Accessory agricultural buildings are used in relation toagricultural use and wilI not be necessary in a Large 1otsubdivision. Private stables are a condi,tional use permit in the
RR District which would stil1 aIlow a large Lot owner the
opportunity for a private stable but would require a public hearing
and notices to neighboring properties of such a request which isappropriate for a single fanily subdivision. Therefore, therezoning lrouLd not significantly change the accessory uses
perrnitted in the districts and appropriate accessory uses for largelot subdivisions would stiI1 be permitted.
Conditional Use Permits
The RR District allows private stables as a conditional use pernit
which is an accessory use in the A2 District. As nentioned above,a private stable is more appropriate as a conditionaL use in alarge 1ot subdivision. Of the renaining conditional uses, similaror the same for both the RR and A2 Districts, are connercialkennels, stables or riding academies, churches and recreational
beachlots.
fnterim Use Permits
There is a much nore extensive list of interin uses penoitted inthe A2 District than is in the RR District. The following is alist of the interin uses in the A2 District rrhich are not perroittedas interim uses in the RR District:
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2
3
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Bed and breakfast establishment
Mobile hones
Mineral extraction
Churches
Wholesale nursery
CO}.,IPARISON OF USES BETWEEN A2 AND RR DISTRICTS
Planning Commission
Rezoning of A2 to RR District
August 12, l99l
Page 3
tR nts tb
6. Electrical substation7. GoLf and driving range with or rrithout niniature golf
The najority of these interin use pernits rrould not be appropriate 'in an RR District, such as mineral extraction , i^omr-erciaftransroission tower, wholesale nursery, etc. These conditional usesare more appropriate in an agricurtuiar area which is not developedwith. single family homes. Therefore, by rezoning tne firje 1otsubdivisions from A2 t-o RR, the city would be p-."".r.rirrt - tfr"i.character as a single fanily subdivision by renoviig thepossibility of an inappropriatl use reing propisea wiitri'n ttesubdivis ion.
The 1ot reguirernents and setbacks for both the A2 and RR 'District
are exactly the same. Therefore, the rezoning of the propertieswould not result in any change in their lot reftuireraenti. '
SI]]'IMARY
staff has notified arr of the lot owners rnentioned in the rarge ]otsubdivisions which rrould be reviewed for rezoning f;;; .e,z- to RRDistrict so that they are aware of Lrhat the city is consiaering.rt will be made clear. to the. property owners th;t this is a ci€yinitiated project that rras dilcussed-when the "ity ,i" ieviewin!limiting contractorrs yards in-.t\e city and realizeld tnat th- citf
l?=-u,nyffi:r. of .large 1ot subdivisionJ and a more liberally zonedclr-strict but have the characteristics of a single - fanirysubdivision of which the zoning regulations should refiect. upoircomparison of the uses of the two districts, it appears thatrezoning the large lot subdivisions fron A2 to Fir is an ia'pprolriate
step and that it rrould be liniting the possibility of iries- wtrictrwould not confom with the large 1ot subdivisions, yet continuingto allol, appropriate uses of the area.
some concern may be raised fron residents regarding the status ofGreen Acres Assessment. In speaking with brlin Shafer, Carvercounty Assessor, he stated that residential zones do guaiify forGreen Acres- Those rots that gualify or Deet the cri€eria -under
the A2 zoning would also qualify undel the RR zoning.
Planning Conrnission
Rezoning of A2 to RR District
August 12, L991
Page 4
RECOI,II'{ENDATION
Staff reconmends the
motion:
Planning Comnission adopt the following
I'The Planning Connission recommends approval of Rezoning #91-9 forproperty zoned A2, Agricultural Estate to RR, Rura1 ResidentialDistrict for the following subdivisions within the city:
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4
5
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7
8
9
Tinberhrood Estates
sun Ridge Addition
Country IIilIs
Pioneer HiIls
Lake Riley Woods NorthRiley Lake lleadohrs
Deerbrook
Great Plains GoIf Estates
Hesse Farnsrr
ATTAC}IMENTS
llap of subj ect sites.Letter fron city to subject property owners.
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EH[NHEE$EN
590 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
August 8, 1991
The city has discussed rezoning the large lot subdivisions fron A2(Agricultura1 Estate District) to RR (Rura1 Residential District).Currently there exists 9 farge lots subdivisions that are being
considered for rezoning. These Eubdivisions incLude:
Timberwood Estates
Sun Ridge Adilition .
Country Hil1s '.-
Pioneer Hi1ls
Iake Riley Woods NorthRiley Lake HeadowE
Deerbrook
Great Plains Estate6
Hesse Fa:as
\.
- OVer -
1
2
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
a>t,
The intent of the A2 District ls the npreservatS.on of rufalcharacter while respecting developnent patterns by allowing singlefamily residential developnentr'. The intent of the RR District isI'to provide for singJ.e farrily residential developments intended for
PRINTED ON RECrcLED PAPER
CITY OF
Dear Property Owner:
on wednesday, August 21, L99L at 7:30 p.m., the Chanhassen Planning
Comrnission will hold a public hearing for the purpose of naking a
recornmendation to the City Council regarding the rezoning of large1ot subdivisions currently zoned A2 to RR. The neeting uiI1 beheld in the City Council Cbaubers at 590 Coulter Drive.
This rezoning request is being initiated by the Planning
comrnission. It cane out of discussions the city had when reviehringliniting contractoris yards in agricultural areas. They realizedthat the city has a nunber of large 1ot subdivisions that arecurrently designated A2 uhich could a11ow uses that are notdesirable in a residential neighborhood. The intent of this
proposed rezoning is to preserve the character of large lotsubdivisions as single fanily neighborhoods by renoving thepossibility of an inappropriate use being proposed nithin then.
The pennitted uses uourd remain the sane in each zone. Accessoryuses,. inc-lu.ding agricultural buildings and private stabLes, aie notpermitted in the RR zone. Both of these types of uses ire noretYpig?} of an agricultural area. priva€d ,t"Uf."-..qu1.. aconditionat use perait ln the RR zone so application couiJ Ie naa"for that use. fhe request would requirl- a public tearing ananotices to neighboring ploperties. rxi6ting stalles in trre ieloneaarea r.rould be grandfathered in.
August 8, 1991
Page 2
large lot subdivisions'. Arl of these subdivisions neet the intentof the RR district nore than the A2 district in that they areneighborhoods with a different identity fron the agriculturat ir".=in which they are located.
There are a few other conditional and interia uses ar.l0lred in theA2 district that rrould not be permitte- in the nn-ai"tii"t. Theseincl.ude:
Paul Krauss
Planning Director
The majority of these use permits would not be appropriate in an RRDistrict, such as mineril extraction, comrnercial transnissiontower, wholesale nursery, etc. rrre renilnin; ;;;;;r-iG'-t'iit .."similar or the sarne for-roth the RR ."a az Districts are comrnerciarkennels, stables or riding acadenies, churches .na -i""il.tiorr.r
beachlots.
If yol have any questi-ons re_garding this proposed rezoning, pleasefeer free to contact Kathy Aanenso'n in our iranning oefii[mEnt at937-1900.
S incerely,
1
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PK: KA: K
. Bed and Breakfast establishment. Tenporary Hobile Hones. Cernetery. Commercial Transnission Toner. wholesale Nursery. Electricat Substation. colf and Driving Range. Group Hone for 7 to 16 persons. Mineral. Extraction
CITY OF
CH[NH[ESEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
Staff has been working with the watershed District, Board of Water
and SoiL Resources (BWSR), Soil Conservation Service (SCS), and theMetropolitan council on ways to resolve existing erosion problenson the bluff line. Staff has sent these groups a copy of theordinance for their coDments. The ordinance has aLso been sentOrlin Schafer, Carver County Assesor, for his conments. Staffhopes to have comments back in tirne for the Planning Conmissionmeeting.
?Dt,PRINTED ON BECYCLEO PAPER
I.IEIIIoRAN Dt U
To: Planning Conmission
FROlit: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner
DATE: August 13, 1991
SUBJ: B1uff Protection Ordinance
on June 19, !991, the Planning Connission held a public hearing onthe Bluff Protection Ordinance (Attachnent #2). Residents affectedby the ordinance attended the neeting. The nain concern of theresidents lras r.rhat exactly did the ordinance say, how would itaffect their existing homes and could vacant bluff lots bedeveloped and/or subdivided. After hearing cornments from thepublic, the Planninlt Cornrni5sion nade some ninor changes to theordinance and recomrnended tabling action until the affectedproperty orrners were sent a letter explaining the ordinance and acopy of the ordinance.
On July l'l , L991, a letter and a copy of the ordinance was sent toaffected property oh,ners (Attachnent #3). Staff has received veryfew calIs in response to the letter. Again, the nain concern lras
ho!, the ordinance lrould affect undeveloped property. In one case,the ordinance could prohibit the owner fron building his hone wherehe wants it to be located. f have asked the orrner to attend theAugust L2, L99L, neeting to express. his concerns. Almost all ofthe calls were in support of the ordinance.
Planning Cornrnission
August 13, 1991
Page 2
RECO}4II{ENDATION
staff reconmends the
notion:
Planning Conmission adopt the following
ItThe Planning Connission reconrnends approval of the anendment tothe City Code concerning bluff protection as shown on Attachment
#1. tt
ATTACHI.,IENTS
Bluff Protection Ordinance.
Planning Conmission minutes dated June 19, 1991.Letter to affected property owners.
Planning report dated June 11, 1991.
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2
3
4
CITY OF CTIANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COI'NTIES , !,{INNESOTA
ORDINANCE NO.
Bluff. B]uff neans a topographic feature such ascliff, or embankment having the following characteristics:a hi11,
(1) The sLope rises atbluffr and
least 25 feet above the toe of the
(2) The grade of the slope fron the toepoint 25 feet or nore above the toeaverages 308 or greater.
of the bluff to aof the bluff s+epe
(3) An area uith an averalre slope of less than 18t over adistance for 50 feet or nore shall not be considered partof the bluff.
Bluff Inpact zoDe. Bluff inpact zone neans a bluff and landlocated within 20 feet from the top of a bluff.
rrtensive v€getatioD cleariag. rntensive vegetation crearingmeans the complete renoval 0f trees or shrubl in a contiguouspatch, strip, row or b1ock.
Toe of the bluff. Toe of the bluff neans the point on a bluffwhere there i.s, as visually observed, a cleaily identifiablebreak in the slope, fron gentler to steeper s16pe above. Ifno break in the slope is apparent, the toL of thl bluff shal1. be determined to be the lower end of a 50 foot segrent,neasured on the ground, with an average slope exceeain! rat.
Top of the bluff. Top of the bluff means the point on a bluffwhere there is, as visually observed, a cleaily identifiablebreak in the slope, fron steeper to gentler s16pe above. Ifno break in the sLope is apparent, the top of thL bluff shallbe determined to be the - upper end of L So foot segment,measured on the ground, with an average slope exceeain! rat.
. -g?.ti9o, ?. - chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code is anendedby adding Article XXVIIf to read as follohrs:
AN ORDINANCE AII{ENDTNG CHAPTER 20 OF THE
CHANHASSEN CITY CODE, TIIE ZONING ORDINANCE
The city Council of the city of Chanhassen ordains:
Sectiop 1. section 2O-1, Definitions is hereby anended byadding the following:
ARTICLE XXVIII .
BI,UFF PROTECTION
sectioD 20-1100. StateneDt of IDteDt.
Development, excavation, clearcutting and other activitieswithin the bluff inpact zone may result in increased dangers oferosion, increased visibility to surrounding properties and thereby
endanger the natural character of the land and jeopardize thehealth, safety, and welfare of the citizens of the city. To
preserve the character of the bluff irpact zone within the City,alteration to the bluff inpact zone will not be pernitted except as
regulated by this Articl.e and by the regulations of the underlying
zoning district where the property is located.
sectioD 20-1t01. Structure Setbacrs.
(1) Structures, including but not linited to decks and
accessory buildings, except stainlays and landings, are
prohibited on the bluff and uust be set back fron the topof the bluff and toe of the bluff at Least thirty (30)
feet.
(2) on parcels of land on which a building has already been
constructed on June 1, 1991, the setback frorn the top of
the bluff is five (5) feet.
SectioD 2o-Lloz. Stairrays, Lifts and taDdiags.
Stairways and lifts shal1 be used for access up
bluffs. Major topographic alterations are prohibited.
and lifts nust meet the following design requirements:
and down
stain ays
(1) stairways and lifts nay not exceed four (4) feet in width
on residential lots. Wider stairways nay be used for
cornmercial properties, public open space recreatj.onal
properties, and planned unit developnents.
(2') Landings for stairways and lifts on residential lots may
not exceed thirty-two (32) square feet in area. Landings
larger than thirty-tlro (32) square feet may be used for
connercial properties, public open space recreationalproperties, and planned unit developnents.
(3) Canopies or roofs are not allowed on stairways, Iifts, or
landings.
(4) stainays, Iifts and landings may be either constructed
above the ground on posts or placed into the grounq,
provided they are desigmed'and built in a manner that
ensures control of soil erosi.on.
2
(5) Stairways, lifts and landings must be located in the nostvisually inconspicuous portions of Lots.
(6) Facilities such as ranps, Iifts, or nobility paths forphysically handicapped persons are also a1lowed, providedthat the dimensional and perfornance standards of sub-itens (1) to (5) are conplied with.
sectioD 20-1{03. ReEoval or UteratioD of v€getatioD.
Renoval or alteration of vegetation i+-aiLiLered within a bluffinpact zone is prohibited except .for the folloring:
(1) Limited clearing of trees and shrubs and cutting, pruning
and trimming of trees is aLLowed to provide a view frornthe principal dwelling site and to accomrnodate theplacenent of stairways and landings and access paths.
Section 20-1{0{. Topographic AlteratioDs/cradtiDg aBd Fil1iag.
. Topographic alteratioDs/grading aad fllling within the bluffinpact zone shalt aot be porDittLat to iacriase tha rate otdrainage. The drainage -fron property within the bluff irnpact zonemay not be redirected without a pernit fron the City. The pennitsha1I be granted if the proposed alteration does not adv-ersetyaffect the bluff impact zone or other property. An earth lrorkpermit wil-] be, requ-ired for the novement of nbre than ten (1O)cubic yards of naterial within bluff inpact zones. FiIl orexcavated naterial shall not be placed in bluff inpact zones.
Section 20-1{05. Roads, Drivexays atrd parkiDg Areas.
Roads, driveways, and parking areas nust neet structuresetbacks and nust not be placed within bluff irnpact zones whenother reasonable and feasible placenent alternativLs exist. If noalternatives exist, they nay be placed within these areas, and Dustbe designed to mininize adverse inpacts.
gection 12-1a05. officlal uaP.
This Article slalt appLy only to the bluff irnpact zoneslocated on the official bluff irnpact zone nap dated Ju;e 1, 1991,which is incorporated herein by reference and whi.ch is on.fiie withthe city clerk. The official nap Day be adrnialstratively changealby the PlanDiag Director basoi upon the subnittal of tolograpf,icsurvey data prepared by a registereat eagiaeer or surveyoi. -
- Sectl.op 3. This ordinance shall be effective immediately uponits passage and publication.
3
PlsgED AND lDoPrED by the Chanhassen City Council this _day of , 1991.
ATTEST:
Don Ashworth, Clerk/Manager Donald J. Chmiel, Mayor
(Pub1ishedinthechanhassenVi11ageron-,199]'.)
4
CITY OF
CH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
JuIy 17, L991
Dear Property Owner:
The City is consj-dering adopting a bluff preservation ordinance.
A_ publ if- hearing wa.s held by ttre planning Commission on lune rs,l-991. After receiving connents fron the public, action lras tabr.eduntil sorne of the concerns couLd be addr'essed and until a r.ettercould be sent to affected property olrners explaining 1ne-U:.uttpreservation ordinance.
The City has been experiencing destruction of bluff areas as aresurt of crearcutting, erosio[ and construction within t-tre rrutr.The intent of the bluff preservation orainance- is to -plotect
chanhassenrs sensitive and va]uable bruff area, specificalr-y arongBluff creek, norrh of Hh,v. 21? a-n9 along the uiirnl'ioiini"li'v.rr"yand its tributaries. .. in:-bluff presjrv"ti"" ;;;1;;"t" 1.""""t=crearcutting within the. bruff, cleates a structure setback andnaintains existing drainage patterns. An offitiai nap wirrdesignate areas protected - by the ordinance. A draft -nap isavailable for review at City HaI1.
At the June 19 neeting, the first concern with the bluffpreservati-on ordinance wai what it would do to eiisai"! "i.ri"t,r."".The ordinance accornnodates. existing structures and exi-stinq fots ofrecord. Arr structures which are within the bluff =etia"r'zorr" .regrandfathered in as c^onforrning structures and are atso providedwith a decreased bluff setback- for future additions.
A second concern wa.s. the impact of the ordinance on potentialsubdivisions of existing r.arge parcels. The bruff p.o[L"-tio. ....is contained within tha A2 and ar Districts. Th; Ar-;isirict,which is where the existing homes are located, resuflG tnesubdivision of property and linits new subdivisi-ir= -to'i u"it per10 acre density with a nininum of 1 acre of buirdabl" "."i witir "slope of 258 or less- Therefore, the existing "rdi"in-e-."oui...that you rnust have at reast 20 acres and acr-eag! ""ilia"
-& trr"bruff -before you can subdivide. The btuff prese-rvation orai.r.rr".should not further restrict the creation of new lots.
JuIy 17, 1991-
Page 2
Attached is a copy of the draft ordinance. The Planning Conmissionwill again be reviewing the ordinance on fedDesday, August 21,
1991, at 7!30 p.n. iE the city BaII Council cbambers. Should you
have any questions, please feel free to contact me.
S incerety,
A'-a--\
Jo Ann olsen
Senior Planner
Planrri n9
June 19,
Comnri ss j on Meeti ng
199 L - Page 37
PUBLIC HEARING
ZONING ORDINANCE AHENDMENT TO CREATE A BLUFF PROTECTION ORDINANCE SECT I ON
TO THE CITY CODE -
Public Present:
Na me A dress
Jo Ann
cal I ecl
45O FIying Cloud Drive
10460 Bluff CircIe
495 Lakota Lahe
1450 Par k Court
7600 Erie Avenue
1O441 BIuff Circle
Olsen presented the staff report
the publjc hearing to order.
on this item. Chairman Emmings
Lee AncJerson: My
I didn't see and I
aI I ouJeci additions
s Lee Anderson. f Iive ongot this copy and I didn't
house.
1O441 Bluff CircIe.
see the part Lhat itname J.just
Lo the
c)Isen: tJell it's on page 2 of the ordinance, It says.
olsen: Risht. Number 2 under there on page ?, On Parcels of
which a buitdins has already been construcLed on June 1, L99r,
from the top of the bluff is 5 feet.
Lee Arrdeison: I didn'L see Lhe u,ord additions in there.
Iand onthe setbac k
currently 5 'feet now but you wanted to Put an
my quesLion?Lee Anderson: tlhat if
addition onto the house
iils
ulas
Olsen: l^le're not permitLing that.
Lee Anderson: That's my question.
Olsen: The 5 feet is as much as u,e 're giving for that.
is what you'd have to
kicks you into having
AI & Gerty Lebens
Oick & Jane Niemi
T{ay nar d Happe
Roman Roos
Mi ke Sor e nse n
Lee F. A ncier son
Emm i nge : !407(2)?
olsen: t^,e do still have the variance Procedure which
9o through that to get an exception to the ru]es. It
olsen: r^iell if your house is say 15 feet away, you can still, that says
that your setback isn't 30 feet but it's 4 feet.
Lee Anderson: I guess I have a concern about thaL. I have a 2 bedroom
home there. There's a lot of land and where it is, I cai't tell you where
it's set back, It was built about 5 years ago but I think that's really
basica.lly taking something awav but I'm not sure.
Planning
June 19,
Commission Meet i ng
199f - Page 38
to prove hardship,
up to Lhe edge.
t^Je did urant to acconimodate it but stilL not allow right -
O]sen: ft doesn't rea}ly, you know if your lot is say 5 acres.
Lee Anderson: 6 .3
Olsen: 6.3 and say 6 of the
Lee Anderson: I guess I feelI have and I'm no' convincedother question I had uas t.heI'm addressing that one but I
OIsen: !^JeLI, we also have inin the area that doesn't have
that's rea]Iy confiscating some right thatthat that's totally risht for this thins. Theability to subdivide. I don't quite know howdon't see anyLhing on this right now..
acres is within that bluff impact zone.
be.
I'm not against thejust cut you out because.
another section of thethe sewer and uater,
you have to have I believe it'sare controlled that you have toarea that's belor.l the slopeyou'd be restricted on how you
Lee Andersoni About 5 would
Olsen: tJeII that would be.
Lee Anderson: So you'rd basicatLy saying that,philosophy but you're aLso saying, hey you. t,e
ordinance and you 're
Lee Anderson: Right, Hesse Farm.
Olsen: And under the existi.ng regulations,1 acre. I'II have to check but you alreadyhave at least a certain amounL of buildablethat would be in the bluff area. So alreadysubdivide and whether or not you couJ.d.
Lee Anderson: rt aII has to be the l acre totarry has to be buildable.
O]sen: Maybe I can check on that
Lee Anderson: r don't u,ant to get into my probrems specificalry but theother comment r have is that Im not sure that all the p"opie that got that -cdrd, and I respect the need to get this out. I,m not sure more peopleconsidering the property that's covered here, shoulan;t-J.i a copy of thisdocument so they really know what's going on. I applaud your intent butI'm still not sure that part of this isn't basically confis..ti;;-i;;;;"way - some land that peopre may u,ant to deverop under an appropriate mannerand so r Lhink it needs more studv reallv than an ippr"rri'!r disprovartonight. Thank you.
Emmings: Thank you. yes sir.
Roman Roos: r'm Roman Roos, r'm at 10431 Heidi Lane which would be justdown the road from Lee. I guess my concerns addressed to Lhe plannin!
Commission are very much the same. I also have about a 6 acre parcel . Idon't see it in the foreseeable future rhar ra Ue suuJivi;iG;; iiiins-t" -
Planning
June 19,
Commission Hee! i ng
7991 - Page 39
dc, thie tLrt in paying the kind of money and paying the kind of taxes h,e pay
for that area for "the view", if the City's going to try lo constrain orrefrain or stop even an addition to an existing dwelling, for example maybea gazebo or somethj.ng of this nature, tha!'s really destroying some rightsthat I bought and paid for and are paying for every year with very hightaxes. It has no bearing on it being not sewered. I too believe there'sgot to L,e a Lot more study and it's not just the Hesse Farm area a]one. AIIthe houses on the bluff. Those Iots are aII sold and all developed but ifyou move to the other side of the bluff going along towards the Hesse FarmEast and then move across south to the Bluff Creek Course. That area.They have the same problems.' Now their bluff area .is a litt]e more steepthan what the Hesse Farm area is with the exception on the east side. Ijust think that the phiLosophy, the intent is beautiful l think it,sperfect but r think we have to realIy do some studying with the individualsthat "re in existence Lhere for uhat they have, what they,ve paid for andurhat they're going to continue to pay for. One oLher question I have alsohas tc do wjth the land in the business fringe area and of course lheresidential land that we're talking about on Hesse Farm East and t^lest andthat lancJ that would be to the right. r guess it ruou]d be to the east ofthe business fringe area. How far does the business fringe area run up TH169 Jo A:nn?
Emmi ngs: You're talking about the area now
motel there if
where TH 1O1 comes down !o 212.
Roman Roos: Right. From thewith the junkyard on one side.
you wiII, moving up TH 159
Krauss; Jeff, if you could possibly slide over.
Batzli: 4,Ooo feet,
Roman Roos: That's very good. I guess, that's fine Jeff. I guess myconcern would be that again one of the areas of study that I Lhink has tobe looked at very, ve,ry clearly is the business fringe area. I u,as on thePlanning Commission uihen tha! r.ras put in existence back in the Iate zo's.
Emmings: So you're the guy.
Roman Roos: I'm innocent, believe me.
Emmings: You shouldn't have admitted that.
Roman Roos: At the time gentlemen and ladies, it seemedidea and I believe it still is a sood idea. It has to beThere's no question about it. I think what I'm trying toLhat has to be, I think has to be accomplished yet is ifcreate a zoning change. If I understand it, you're goingthe zoning of that business fringe?
Iike a very good
controlled.
say is the sludy
you 're going toto Lry to change
Krauss: I think we have to separate outprotection ordinance, ]t has nothing tothat parL of Lhe BF districL backs up to
issues. This is a bluff line
do with the BF district excepLthe bluff Iine. The BF districL
Plannins
June 19,
Commission Meet i ng
1991 - Pase 40
discussion is sc,mething that started a yeay ago !^lith the comprehensivep]an. It's sorr:.thins. that has !o be picked up again. tJe need to notifyeverybody down there and work r.lith that.. you know, I.think there's a lotof valid concerns being raised in terms of study of the bluff line itselfbut I think it's only fair to say thaL we have studied it quite a bit. t,tehave hiked it. LJe've seen instances where construction even SO and 60 feetaway har,re changed the drainage going over this thing where the first heavyrain we get, this stuff collapses. l,Jhat we have is an. extremely sensitivebLuff ]ine that's covered by a few inches of clay and the rest of it issugar sand. tle frankly have some horrendous examples of r.rhere people have
messed with it and they're on the verge of losing some buildings as aresult of it and I don't know that there's a good ansu,er once that thingstarts. So u,e're trying to balance the rights of the individual. Ue'retrying to recognize the rights of people who are already there and treating
them sonrer^lhat differently because we don't uiant to come in after the factttith an onerous ordinance. But 5 feet from a bluff that is that unstable,or could be that unstable, is preLty close. It's frankly closer than I
r.rould prefer to be but if that's where some of the homes are, we're sayingwe'll live r.Lith that. Eut closer Lhan 5 feet, I can't, I probably be hardpressed to find an engineer I think t^rho would tell you that it's safe tobuild that c.lose to the bluff line.
Roman Roos: I guess I have to somewhat differ u,ith you. I came fromCalifornia and believe me. Believe me, the engineering they can do
marvelous things on the bluff. I mean your paying tremendous dollars for
the view just as you're buying lakeshore for example. I guess what f'm
trying to say, I think we need more study on this. There's a lot of issuesthat are dovetailed togelher Paul . Like I say the business fringe is no!part of this issue but it is married to it because you're talking aboutvisibiLily. Views. Okay? I don't have the cfean ansh,ers. I'm just
saying that I don't know if r,re're ready, aL least the average citizen u,ho'sgoing to be affected by this. I don't think he has enough knourledge toreally make some valid comments tonight and to give guidance to the
P]anning Commission that they may make a recommendation to the Council atthis poj.nt. Thank you.
Emmings: Thank you Roman. Yes sir.
Olsen: Again, that's one of those cases where you'd go through theordinance but since this is an existing lot of record, essentially whatwe're saying is that is most likely a buil.dable site and that's where you
would be able to prove a hardship for a setback. A variance to thErtsetback.
Maynarc, Happe: Anything Lhat had been approved wouldn't be affected by it?
Haynard Happe: I'm Maynard Happe. I live on Lakota Lane. I already havea piece of property there that the road will make your setback so far. Ifyou have 30 feet, I couldn't have a building on the lot and it's already
been approved as such. Nhat would you do?
PJ.a:rnir.3
Jurre 19,
Con',iriesion Me€Ling
!99\ - Paee 41
Maynard H3ppe: All of the homes that are there
Olsen: Right and we use that. tJe look
Maynard Happe: They're all within, welI!, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, there's 7 homes along
are close to.
too in the variance.
know, 30 feet but there's
don 't see that
at t hat
I don 'tthere.
Olsen: And that goes into consideration too with that. Iremoving your right to develop that lot.
Emmings: Tl'rank y,ou. Does anybody else want to be heard onmy understanding that notice of this public hearing went toof recc,rd that's affected by this proposal . fs thit right?
Olsen; Yeah. f uent through all of it. I can,t guarantee t[at wemiss one but we went through the r^lhole list and it was a substantiar
Emmingsr fs there any otherclose the public hearing?
comments? ALright. Is there a motion to
this?
ever y
And it's
1o t. owner
didn't
list.
Ellson: To stir things up and drag it out any Ionger, right. No, I thinkthat we're on Lhe leading edge of a citv doing somethins Iixe tnis. rthink it's really important and f commend lhe people urho brought it to ourattention. tJho knows how much more wourd have happened if we hadn't so rappreciate the citizens r.rho brought iL to our attention and it reallyr.Jasn't something that Has on the priority until we did take a rook at itand realized that it is in accordance uith our city goals of maintainingnaturar greenway and open spaces and the preservaLion of the naturalenvirohment. r like it and r bel.ieve we have done the reseatch that'snecessarv too. r can see forHarding it to the city council. without furtherresearch,
Emmi ngs: Okay. Brian?
Balzli:this toeslope is
Jo Ann? In Section 1, number 2 under B]uff. We keep on harringof the slope. I've always been confused as to r.lhat the toe of thebecause that's the one thing that isn'L defined.
Olsen: tje ll you'd have to 90 through a process to have approva.l to ]ocatea hon,: on that site but that's where the City woulci have a difficultposition sa;.i.ng that there isn't a hardship when you can't even use it foranything. If we deny that variance to that 30 foot setback. or from thesetback fronr the street perhaps, then we would be denying you a home onlhat lot and your use of it.
Ellson moved, Batzli seconded to ctose the public hearing. All voted infavor and the motion carried_ The public hearing was cl6sed_
ElIson: r sound like a broken record but ve liked everything r,le've hadtoday so.
Emmings: Yc,u're just afraid to.
Planning
June 19,
Commission l*,1eet i ng
1997 - Page 42
Olsen:
Sorry,
Batzli; Yeah, I asked you lastI thought they really meant toe
Risht. That was supposed to be changed to toe of the bluff
Batzli: So if somebody came in and said
on your official map but I don't think I
satisfactory i nformation?
time and I guess since you didn't changeof the slope.
I'm covered by the ordinance.
should be, urhat would be -
1t
Olsen: It's supposed to be toe of the bluff. Sorry, b,e forgo! to hal,ethat changed. It started from the bottom up so it's supposed to be bluff.
Toe of bl uff .
BatzIi: okay. In Section 2O-r4o3. Removal or Alteration of Vegetation.
urould really prefer Lhat ure talk about the removal or alteration isprohibited excepi. subject to the fol.louring limited. I didn't really evenwrite this out so much as I kind of wanted to bounce it off the fellow
commissio:-rers here. It looks like we're permitLing it excePt and I lhink
the intent was originally to prohibit it except. I don't know how ure'd
word it. f haven't really looked at it Lhat carefully. And then in
SecLion f2-L4o6 in the official maP sectj.on. Do u,e realIy mean that we're
talkirrs about bluff j.mpact zones located on andlor within the official
bluff impac! zone map?
I
Olsen: I think what we're saying is yeah. It has to be on the maP but it
also has Lo meet the definition of bluff so if something is shown on the
map that actually isn't a b]uff, Lhen they can get out of it that uray but
at Lhe same tirne it had Lo be officially mapped.
Eatz]i: f Has just curious about wheLher we have this line and the
question is r,rhether it means you're on the Iine or you're anywhere within
that zone bounded by the line.
Krauss: tJell, you have a line. For the sake of drafting PurPoses' we
wor ked off the 2OO scale aerials which show the ProPerty lines. t^le had
engineering staff figure out where that bluff began given the criteria that
the ordirrance establishes. There's an elevation that follows through there
and ure picked it up and it might be the 942 elevation in one spot and the
936 in another. t^Jhat we'll do on the official citv maPs is then vou have
an area below that and above the toe and it will be shaded in. tJe couldn't
do that on this map just for the sake of drafting but ule want to make it
clear too that we realize that urhile our information is the best we have,
we didn't go out with a. survey crew and run the r^rhole 6 miles of bluff
line. If somebody comes in Hith better information than r^re have off our
off j.cial maps. !,Je Nant to correct our official maps. t^,e'll accePt the
better informa!ion.
lm-
ElIson; Eased on the definitions.
Krauss: Based upon a survey, a registered survey that shows more accurate
information. In fact, if I might suggest, there's Ianguage that I can lift -
Planni n9
June 19,
Cor,nrigsiorr Heet i n9
7991 - Page 43
from. another ordinance that I can't recall exactly right now but itoutline: ari eC,ninistrative procedure. I've done this in wetland ordinances
whereb;' if >,ou get more accurate information by registered survey or lheCity Engi neer can just change the map. t^le don't even have to ask the City
Counci I to do that.
Batzli:
hurry?
How
Other
big of a hurry are we in to do this?than we want to protect the bluff as
Pr ePar ein someat I east
Are we in any kind of
soon as possible,
Kraussr r don't think there's imminenL danger that something,s going tohappen. There's some ongoing situations there. r.re've been tarkins ibiutthis over a series of probably 4 meetings over a period of 3 or 4 months.tje LJanted to get it on the table - t^le wanted to notify a-I L the residents.t^,e rranted to get their feedback. If there are other directions to 9o in,we'd b: hapF), to do t+lat. If the homeowners uould like some opportunity tomeet with us so Lhey can figure out where the bluff is as we think it isrelative to lheir specific property, He,d be happy to do that too.
Batzli: f Has just kind of following up on Roman,s comment thatthere should bc some kind of cooling off period to the residents.they h:.rre .tlrejr hands on a copy of the ordinance, they can figureit really does to them and trhat it means beforu ,. p"=s it on.toLOUnCII -
he thought
Nor.: that
out ' what
City
Krauss: Tl-rat would be reasonable. t^,e had intended to send copies of theordinance out urith lhe notice but ure didn't have them in time to do that.This is not something where there's something horrendous going to happentomorrcr.l if we don't pass this today.
Batzli: I think if I was a homeowner I would like the opportunity to takea ]ook at this and meet urith staff now that rve got " .opy of it in frontof nre and f 've got a chance to ]ook at my obJn property, They may havebetter comments or their concerns may be satisfied if r.re allow them aIiLtle bit nrore time.
Krauss: I might add too that we'd like todo that for tonight but ue wanted to bringwe think Lhat this is a concern. We have
show you.
Batzli: I'm all for this and I'm a hugedone a sood job. I love the concept butthink Roman has a good idea to kind of.
a video. t,e intended tographic evidence of why4 sites we'd like to
proponent. I think Jo Ann hasI'm just thinking as a homeowner f
Jane Ni.emi; Can I? you,re being kind of IbuL seeing as you've etablished looseneis h
Emmings: Ne can clamp douln.
oose
ere
and Iin not
know I'm out. of turnfollor^ring ruIes.
Jane Niemi: [^Je got a notification that says we're amending something, tJehad no idea urhat you Here amending from the notice so ure didn,t know whatthe original statement said and what you're changing it to. r think that
Planrrin3
June 19,
Commission heet i ng
1991 - ?age 44
these b.l uf f lot
pr opos i rr,; .
Dick Ni.enri: I cion't think they understood the ramifications.
Jane Niemi: ft s-ys something's going to be amended. tle]I what is going
to be arnended? That's what we're here to find out, Hhat are you amending
and what is this amendment going to be so I think that the original needsto be sent out, brought forth to the people that this is effective alongwith your proposed change.
people should have a copy of lhe original and what you,re
Batzl i : So I
about it her --people.
guess h,hat I'd propose
and we instruct staff
table this once we talka copy to the affectedisto
that uJe
send out
Krauss: If I couLd add one thing. That's f ine with us. t^,le'd be happy to
do it but the thing that we're amending is the zoning ordinance. It's this
black bincier here and everything that's in it but there is no sPecific
bluff protection regula:ion at aIl right nou,.
Ellscn: lt's like bringing something out that was never there.
Dick Nierni: ...this is a draslic change -
Krauss: t^,le I I no. It's the same terminology. [.Je're amending the zoning
ordinance by adding Section.
Dick Niemi: If you ]ive Lhere
drastic change. I don't Lhink
Lhe bluff I i ne .
on that bluff line, you think of it as a
anyone here or on the City council lives on
Emmings: l'lo, and we pass things about various things. I don't own any
cornmercial property and we pass things on commercial Property all the time.
You knouJ, I guess this is a real smalL turnout which bothers me. It either
means that people aren'! interested, which I can't believe, or that they
really were not informed and that scares me.
Jane Niemi: It was a very
It really said nothing.
cryptic letter. It said hey, this is uhat...
Emmings: So it may be but on the other side of this I guess is theproperty, the existing property's are exempLed so I didn't think people
would be too excited about that because ae're not even making them non-
conforming uses. tJe're totally exemptihg Lhem so that's going a long way.
Dick Niemi : But we've got fO 1/2 acres which - . .subdivided. - .
Emmings: Right, and you just don't know '.:-'H. It creates an element of
doubt and that's always horrible but I guess that the, I have a hard time
thinki.ng that your planning Lo build over the edge of the sloPe. And as
J.ong as we al)ow you to go up to 5 feet from it with your existing duelLing
or urithin 30 with anything neu,, those don't seem like real onerous
PIanni n:
June 1cr,
Commission Meet i ng
199L - Page 45
pro,"'i:;ic,ns tc nre buL maybe they are. So rnaytre Briarr 's suggestiorr is a
onE. C: ah3.C.
c'oocJ
Haynard Happ€r: The notice that I got uJas very vague. I had been to ameeting about the sand pit and everything going on there, I thought it wassome rrrore to do r^rith along there but I decided I best come and see just
whai or urho was affected and who they were talking abou!. I didn't haveany idea tihat was going on.
OLsen: l,le wanted to send out the ordinancebut by Lhe Lime we had'it in'final form, lttime. Before this meeting anyway so it wasto have to go with it. tJhen we sent out thewhere we weren't sure exactly what ue coulddoing e L,iuf f protection ordinance and caII.
and PauI was going to do Lhatuouldn't have gotten out inkind of like we're just goins
notice, it.was one of thosesay in there more than we're
Emm.ings: I sruess it's small enough so r guess.,.but we can fix that byjust continuing the hearing and getting more input. And you know, talk tovour neighbors- t^le'I1 table it. Havbe if everybody agrees with that..TaI l: to your neighbors and read it and ret us know whai your concerns are.Do it i;, u:ritirg or come in when r.re look at it again. rt sounds ]ikethat's the r.rav it's going to go- r thought everyone who uas here, when rwalked in the room and saw a ]ot of peopLe, I thought everybody was here onthe bluff p,otection ordinance because r Lhousht that uras going to be a biJdraw arci r *as reaL surprised when r saw. Jeif, we skippei-over you andr don't r'ranL anybody accusing me of running a roose ,""ting so ue're goingto go ovq.r he:-e r ight now.
Farmakes: r r^rouldn't b,e against tabling this for a period of time. r thinkthis is an importanL thing. I reaLize that it may interfere with propertyrights. s,ome of the owners in this area but that happens in many cases inthe zonin3 or-dinance. For instance on a lakeshore lot. rn an effort toPreserve the lakeshore, I am not allotred to build within a certain distanceof the lakeshore Lhat r Hant to the lake. The efforL there is an "tt"mpf--!o keep Lhe entire ]ake lookine like a developed rot. rt's an effort tooffer the community something and to preserve the Iakeshore- The basicphilosophv of this protection on the bluff area is an attempt to preservethe natural area itself because it is subject to deterioration, rt's asensitive area. r'm sure since you Iive there you probably, in heavy rainsand so on, seen what can happen in that area. The intent ii not to destroyvour propertv investment or to rimit your rights for development. r knowr r,louLd be sympaLhetic to grandfathering or issue the people uho want toamend their homes or so on. The intent here is to make a community effortto protect this area and things are going to change here. tJith thesehighwavs and this deveropment and so on, 10 years from now this is not9oin9 !o be the chanhassen that it is now. you yourselves are talkingabout subdividing and so on and the issue here is an attempt to try andpreserve scme sensitive areas of chanhassen. .r realize that wiLh thaLattemtrt there uill probably be some infringement on your property rights.rt's sornething r think that hopefurly r^re can work out in the issues ofgrandfathering. But r am not against spending more time notifying propertyowners- rf vou'lr let me finish. r'm not against notifyins further Lhe
PIa.nni ng
June 19,
Comnission Meet i n9
7')97 - Page 46,
Enrnrings: You're burning !o say something.
Jane' l..iienri: f guess the whole presentation of this is telling us as
homeowners, we're all. saying yeah. Let's Protect it but this is coming on
as a nesative rather than a Positive. t,hy not say if you're going to ourn
it, if your obligation to maintain' Lo keeP from erosion. To keeP frotn and
do jt frorn a positive level than say Hhat you cannot do r,rith what you own
and what r.r3 are paying dearly for. ...tax situation is not here but we'vejust been socked with a .Iovely increase so I think we're al] a little on
the edge and we're kind of don't blant something iammed down our throats.
t^,e just have.,.presented in a positive that since you own this, it's your
oblisation to keep erosion from haPPening then I think it might go a little
bit better. This is a negative presentation.
Mike Sorenson: can I say something?
Emmings: Yeah. You haven'L told us who you are though.
I't i ke Sorenson: I 'm Hi ke Sorenson.
Emmings: I don't know if she did either. tJhy don't you tell us who vou
are for the record.
Jane |'liemi: Jane Niemi . I live in Hesse Farm.
proper!y owners and having further' discussion with this. I futly encouragean)' ar,: ;-'i.r') plc\p.rty oilner to come in here and discuss this at lengthI'd l;1.: certainly ani' property owner to be part of this process anclhopafully tog€ther we can atLempt to proLect some of the areas of
Chanhassen that are worth prolecting - You're fortunate enough to talk -about the view th-L you want to look at. tle need to change some of the
ways th.it r.re det,elop these areas or we're going to wind up with an innerciLy look in this community that I don't think a lot of people want here. -Hopefull:' if it's just a matter of 10 feet away from a bluff line or 5 feetor 30 feeL, many of these things, if Lhese developments are taken orslightly altered, create a lot of giving the overall effect of more open
space and protecting certain sensitive areas. So hopefully we can do thaL. -The other issue, when we were talking about California. There are several.
homes here that have urashed into the bluff area in the rain and I was
f orturr;te enc,ugh to be out in California in the last earthquake. Several
of theee expensive homes were severely damaged, at least from urha! f can
see. E\.,en ones xhere a great deal of proteclion went into trying to keep
thes: ho:"ne s up. There's no question in my mind that there are some places
where derrelopment is fo'ced simply because of the property values. It
requires it. The terrain and so on. I would not think it would be a goodjdea f c,r us, sitting here on this side, not owning ProPerty there' not to
say that there are some areas there just as a matter of public concern that -lhat area, L,esides the aesthetic differences, Physically should not be
buil'. c;r. That's of course always up for discussion but that's uhat u:e're
here f c,r. Anyway !o sum it uP, I tlould like to see PerhaPs more effort in
nctifyin: people for continuing this public hearing and I ulould not be
ren:iss to vote to table this for the time being.
Plannin3
June 1?,
Ccr,nigsion Meet i ng
1 q91 - P e.ae 47
tlike !orens.,n: I know you've already gone through the public discussionbu! I arn o:-,': of thc lencj owners in the business f ringe area. I'm the
Saddanr HrE.sein of Chanhassen. It says it right here. I uras just wondering
hor,r this ner^r bluf f protection ordinance. First of aIl when. they werebuilding this hishway out here
Emmi ngs: Which one?
Hike S,orenson: Highway 5. Cutting trees down. Taking up you know and inthese types of areas, this is Hhat has to be done. If you have to buildbuildings' you have to remove trees. you have to remove vegetation. Vouhave to re,nove things. r'm not opposed to not doing it and rm not opposedbut r did buv some rand and Pat Blood here, he's my neighbor do!.rn there. Hebought sore land based on a zoning that the city of chanhassen put inef f ecr- . Lje cjidrr 't buy it !o look at . We bought it to develop and to bui tdbuildinss and things like this you know. And r was just wondering hotr, r'masking here. r'm not getting up and I'm not ranting and raving oi nothinglike Llrat. r was just curious to see what the city of chanhassen has inmincl for the fringe area.
Emmings: "Ihat's going to be a separate discussion. l.Je don't knour.
Mike Sorerrson: f got Lhe letlers.
Emrnings: That's because your property is affected because you,re at thebottorn of the slope but we wind up doing with, the business fringe area is -
sorret hi ng r.;e've tal ked about nrany times. t^re've rezoned it.
Mike gorenson: r seen this article in the paper, you kno* that front pagearticle in the paper saying how, you know the one I'm referring to?
Emmi ngs: I don't know. l^lhat paper?
Krauss: That was about a year ago. At least a year -
Mike sorenson: Helr it was a big full page articre. r have it at home.Maybe 6, n)onths j a yeay or so ago.
Krauss: I think it uras the last time we discussed it.
Emmings: Llhatever. [.Je've looked at it a number of times. t,e've rezonedit several times. t,e've fooled around with it and we've just never found asatisfactory answer. There's a number of people on the pianning comrnissionwho think there shouldn't be any commercial development on that property atall. There's a number here that think yeah, maybe there are some lowinlensity commerciar uses that uourd be appropriate there so we're havingthose kinds of discussions and you'11 be notified when there,s more.-.
Hike gorenson: okav. Like r say, our concerri is people that own theproperty in there is like Pat. He's trying to sell his and me, I'd like tofinish developing mine. r'm kind of in an area where r don't inow where,
Pl anni n3
June 1cj,
Comrnission Meet i ng
19?1 - Pag€i 43
Emmings: Have you got the slorage?
Mi ke 3orenscn:
can 9o. I came
Yes. Iin wiLh
have the storade. nnd we just don't know where .we
a plan and it didn't fly aL aII.
Emmi ngs: I remernber.
Itli ke Sorenson: But anyr4ay.
Emmings: The thing is, this is a real dynamic situation. Especially down
where you are. But it's dynamic throughout Chanhassen and the reason forthat is, we're going from what was once kind of a rural community to what's-
becomin? very much an urban community. It's just a very dynamic situation
and you rTia)' oun a piece of property right here and yesterday it wasn't
withi.n Lhe Hetropolitan Urban Services Area but today it is. Yesterday you -couldrr't build. You had to have t house in 10 acres and now you can have
15,C00 sqlr a-, r €- f ,i.t lots but the point is, whenever you decide you're going
to der,,elc,p, you've got to come in and find out Nhat the rules are in effect -at that tilr,e because those are the ones that govern u:hat you do. And
there's. that- keeps those ru.les static. The fact !ha! you bought a piece ofpycp..rL/ und=:' one set of rules, doesn't mean you geL to deveLop under the
rules thcn in effect. You get to develop under the rules in effecL at the -
time you ask to develop and it's a risk you take as a landoldner . t^le aII do
it. It's hard douln in that area and it's hard in Chanhassen today but it'sjuEi the u::.1, it is. I can't offer you any comfort because things are
reallt' changing fast. tJe change ordinances just about every time we sit
doun arrd i'-'s not because we think it's fun or r^,e 're preverse. It's just
neceesary. tLell, to gat back to the subject at hand. I think a bluffprotection ordinance is very important. I think tha! Brian's comment on
that orre s€ction, that section on remova.L or alteration of vegetation to me
said noLhing. I could literally go out and do anything on mv proPerty that
I uranted to do arrd fi! jt within the language that's on that page and that
reaIIy bothered me because I really wonder if ule're doing anything at all
here as far as vegetation is concerned. But it helPs a litt1e bit if vou
do r,rhai Erian said but I still think it needs some work. PIus number 2,
clearing has becorne cleaning and we don't really care if they 90 out and
clean their vegetaLion. tle don't h,ant them to clear it. And I think there
should be specific lansuage in 1404 that says that there will be no
increase of drainage toward the bluff. That no development activity h,iII
cre6te any increase drainage, If there's some drainage there now or
there's some drainage before you develop, fine. That's uhat's there butyou can't do anything to increase the drainage towards the bluff. See
we've had some people come in and LaIk to us and I don't knou if it's righL
or wrong but the information that's in front of us is that bluff's areincredibly sensiLive pieces of land. They're very fragiIe. That evenpuLLing up a building and having the roof collect water and direct -it or
channel it or make it heavier toward the l.Iuff can erode the bluff auay and
they've had exanrples of this apparently :: Eden Prairie. And we're not
only in!eresLed in preventing Lhose situations to protect Lhe bluff
r.lhich I'rr sure essentially everybody here would be in favor of, but tre also
want the bluff to be an amenity as you look towards it. You knob, not just
looking out from it but looking towards it as r.relL so when, we think of !69 -
trlannir,:
June 1<j,
C,:rna:i ssiorr Meeti ng
7991 - tragr€ 49
oy 272 g. jrrg. The old 212. That that area will be left very much Lrithe:ss:,: i:I l>' i,: ds,-.: Iop:r:ent. Thqre will be development on the bluffs but
belor^J that and out into the area that the U.S. has there in the rivervalley, it's goins to be kind of left looking the taay it does nou, or betLerif possible. And part of that is making sure we don't have developmentright up to the bluff. Or Iike some people like to do and build out overthe eCae of the bluff. You do read about California. you do read about
mud slides and houses sliding down hills and I just don't think it's golngto happerr l-,ere but we want make, we don't even r.rant the bluf f s to beeroding auav. so we think that this is important stuff. Something's going.to be passed. r think enough eoncern's be'en raised here so that ue shLuld-table thie for tonight and put it on our next, can r.Je put it on our next
mee t i n9?
Olsen: gLrre.
En]rrinssr And Eet copies of this ordinance out to everybody but make surewhen vou telk to vour neighbors that you tell them, that you don't just saybre pa,-- a lot of mcney in taxes. I Eay a Lot of money in taxes so don'ttalk t. me about that. That doesn't help with me and r can,t build within75 f ec+- c.f the. Ial.:.e that I live on. That was a good point. f can't myhouse within 5 feet of Lhe lake or stick it over it.
Dic i: l.Jiel:.i: lhat if you had 3OO feet and someonecf i".? Tha,.'s the analogy. . ,5 foot setback.
sai.d you can't sell 1OO
E.IIson: I..hink this w(,uld give people a chance to take a ]ook at theirindivicjual parcels and see if it would really be affeciinn if.l"r.
Farnrakes: The analogv lhat r actually ma.de was, if you misunderstood itwas that the effort of doing that is I am giving up some of my landownerrights in an effcrt for the community good- r mean that's what,s beingasked of me and the question is, that,s the only ulay ure,re going topreserve sorre of this stuff. r mean that's it. That's the-onri Hay youcan Preserve.
Dick Nierni: Mv question was the feasibility or lack of feasibility ofsubdividing it if necessary down the road and that's why using the analogyof if vou have 3oo feet of shorel.ine and you want to seil too, you've goi'some regula!ion that prohibits you from sellins that.
Farma kes: It 's how it ,s developed.
Emmings: And the oLher point is, when I hear you say Co me I've go! land IHant to develop on the bluff, aII the more important that I Hantregulations on how that's done. r don't want it to just happen any way.You may have the best intentions of protecting the bruff in the world youknow and r concede that to you but you're not everybody and r don,t knoweverybcdy is going to do it and I think the bluff is a real unique physicalfeature tha! we have in this city and it's got to be protected somehow.Mavbe we haruen't done it exactly right here. Maybe you'll come up with
Planning
Ju rre 19 ,
Commiesion MeeLi ng
)997 - Page 50
Roman Roos;
60 foot.
ELlson: But if we make that assumption ongoing.
Roman F:oos: t understand but we need some control now, and Jeff f agree
1ooe" buL what I'rn thinking right nou,, a Lypical scenario. You buy a lot.
As a contractor, the guy hires me and wants me to place t.hat house on that
bluff for the view okay. So what I do is I go in there and I'll take a
look at the contours and I'lI try to cut that house into the bluff and into
Lhe hillside to somehow.make it fiL in. To tuck it in the land so they get
the rier.:. Give it some isolation- Nhat you try to do is pl.ant that house
on thai lanci. tJ. haven'+- addressed that issue. fn other ulords, f'd come
back to the City and say here's my site Plan, Here's the grading Permit
Paul. This is uhat I'd like to do. Now I'm going to change the Loe or I'm
going to change the top of tha! roof a ]ittle bit to accomplish this
okay? 9o urhen i-ou talk about the toP of the roof, what Paul's driving at
but r:hat if we modify the top of the roof because the land trill permit it
to be done oke)' withor,rt taking a lot of Lrees out. There's iust some
variables ure haven't adclressed yet guys that b,e have to address and that is
in the building process, the grading process, hot^t you tuck a house in
there. To categorically say a 30 foot ]imit or a 5 foot limit' I don't
think we can say that.
E rnrn i ngs r Do think a 30 foot selbackyou
By
do
golly I think Steve that
Emmi ngs: No ,you think that 30 is too big a number?
is a I ot?
sometimes you might have to have a
RoGran Roos: No, not necessarily
trees, the foliage is so unique,
categorically say a number okay.
Emmings: tJelI it's a minimum.
Roman Roos: Yeah .
about it but I don't
many variables tha t
There's got to be some control. There's no guestion
think r.re've address: . that issue because there's sojust a 3 page ordinai --. I don't think can address it.
but again the bluff
I don't know how you
unique and the
ust
ls so
can J
Emmings: Paul , do you Hant to address of the things he's raised?
=cnc ide as r.;h6re u.; e carr rnake this b,etter . tje'rei goin9 to give you thechence to cjo that by.tabling it.
Roman Rooe: Just a couple of quick comments. Number one...I think Jeff ,6
righ! on target. . .analogy of the shoreline. . .bought land and developed on.ue've been real )ucky. If you look at the development b,e've got along thebluffs so far, most of it has really turned out quite well. l^le're really
f orturrate. AbsoLuLely fortunate but I think every property in designinghis home on how that sat. on that bluff r.ras considering...bluff becausethat's part of what he bought.
Planr,ing
June 19,
Corl.rission
I9'r1 - F'age
Heel i ng
1
Kraus:: i..lel I , you know there is the potential you could go for a site plan
revie r.: f or e ;: inc'ividual house .. tJe've always tried to stay auJay f rom that .f rnean you want to give the latitude to the homeowner to do what they,dIike to Co. We know that this is a sensitive bluff. Ue knob, where it'sbeen tinkered with all hell breaks loose. Ue know that there's propertiesthat arc being lhreatened. Yes there's probably some sites uhere you couldeculpt somethi ng out in there, although I,ve got to say that I lhink youwould be very risky to do it. tJe know Lhat the tree Iine comes back ashort cistance and in some places a long distance but the tree ]ine isusually Lhe bluff itself in many ai-eas and as soon as u,e start tinkeringwith that, as soon as we start excavating'it. If you plant a house theie,you're certainly 9oin9 to change the drainage going over the top. Butevery time r.re've seen that happen, there's been extreme .amounts of damageoccurring. Either it occurs to that property or i! occurs to the treesdoxn beLc,l.r. They get wiped out as the erosion occurs or it occurs in thecreeks and Lhe rivers that accept all Lhe sediment and now we're beingasLed ta clean that up. l,Je can't eet away urith chanhassen washing overthe hiI). anv..ncre. The Federal EpA is suing the Metropolitan t,aste controrCornrnission to reduce the sediment load, the waste ]oad in Minnesota Riverby 4O"; by the >,ear 1996. The Mt^lCC is in turn threatening us to sue, andthev're doing this to every community in the river vallei. tje can't getar.:ey uilh that kind of stuff anymor'e, even if we wanted to.
Roman Roos: I would encourage, I would realIy encourage the planningcommi=sion, r,rernbers of the planning commission to take i diive oown theroad. I know what paul is saying. There are some isolating cases that aregoing tt cause probJ.ems. It is not the majority of cases. f can ]ook ate'ery hcr.'ire that 's been built on the Hesse Farm, east and west and on thefar sicie of TH 101 and...you wilr not see that condition thit paul'stalkins about on armost 9sz of the homes that have been buiit onto thehiiltop' r Lhink ue have to have some contrors but i J"n;i-in"u the answer.r don't knoi.r the- - -r don't know how you contro.I a contractor going in andcutting and putting a house. I'm just saying there are some remotesituations that we've got a probJ.em with. paur, r asree rooz. t^Je've beenvery fcr tu nate .
Emmings: You don't want to take, our attempt to control or protect, reallyto protect the bluff isn,t in any way a criticism of any people here ordevelopment that's taken place to date except for a few maybe, butgeneraLlv speaking the 952 we agree with you. rt isn't a pioblem but thoseproperties probably wouldn't be affected by our ordinance anyway. Haybethey would have fit in the ordinance anyuray. UeLl, and they,re going to beexempted so I don't knoul if it's a problem-
Emmings: I don't agree with that I guess.f Hant. I don't urant more study. The inputff you have specific things you h,aDt to saythink we've got to listen to that before webut other than that, there's not going to be
The only other thi.ng that
f.rom peop.le who I ive there .about the ordinance to us, Ipass this onto the City Councilfurther study in terms of
Ronan Roos: I'm just saying Lhere,s got to be more sludy.
PIanni.ng
;'une 1?,
Commission Meeti ng
7997 - Page 52
ccnsul*-ing Facr,Le or
I a ndi,i,rne rs. I think
Batzli moved, Ellson seconded to table the
create a bluff line protection ordinance.
motion carried. The item was tabled until
looking at propertf. But we do want to hear fromwe've exhausted this.
Emmings: Uould it have made a difference in the Nay
of
they developed it?
property and they mayBatz I i :
say.
But they may have an undevelopable piece
Emming:: Yeah, that'd be useful.
Emn;ings: Okay. And in the meantime you'Il send a coPv of the ordinance to
all the c,r,rners of property on the bluff. And ask them in a letter to tell
us ho!.r it affects Lheir property, particularly undeveloPed proPerLy.
Because it's not really going to affect developed ProPerty that much except
to the extent that you have Plans to subdivide. Now h,e'II need a motion to
table this -
+,:li: f move that we table the Zoning Ordinance Amendment to create a
uff Iine proLection ordinance.
fLlson: And I'lI seconC that motion.
Ptr
bl
Zoning Ordinance amendment to
All voted in favor and the
the first meeting in August.
Jane Niemi: August when?
Ernmi ngs: I don't know .
Emming5: The first uednesday.
Roman Roos: ...miles of bluff line. I mean Lhat's a lot of PeoPIe. Other
than the golf course
Batzli: Eut I think I would be interested if people came in with real lifeexamples as to what we're doing how, uhaLever I'm trying to say. Inessence, hor^r is it going to impact their lots? tthat is this going to do?
EIIson: A before and after analysis or something.
Krauss: [.Je're going to have some, r^relI there's some vacations in the
departrnent coming up and ure r.Ja nt !o give people enough time to come in and
sit dcxn u:ith us and tre 'can go specifically over their ProPerty. The
gerrtle;,arr who has 11 acres. He may or may not have an issue. He may not
have an)' rigl-,L to develop thal property because of other ordinances right
now l.ut i.:e'cl Iike to be able to sit dou:n and exPlain that to him. t^Jhat
we'd like to do is if you hold this over, if vou could hold iL over to the
first meeting in August and Lhen that will give evervbodv enough time.
Ellson: You'll get a notice.
CITY OF
EIIEI{II-[E$EN
690 COULTER DRTVE . p.O. BOX 147 o 61'1111.145SEN, MTNNESOTA 5531 7
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
ITTEMORANDITI.{
TO: Planning Connission
FROM: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior planner
DATE: June 11, 1991
SU&T: Zoning Ordinance Amendnent toprotectit,n ordinance
BACKGROUND
Create a Bluff Line
The city has been ob-serving aLterations to our bruff areas in theforn of tree renoval , indiscrininate fi11i;;/;r;;;;-;; damagef rorn erosion. Tha-se alterations iurpact "2.'"1"
-"i=iiJ, ' .,"t.rquality and loss of property trrrouju^ erosr.on. staff has beentrvins, with rimitea succlssj to e:.if,inate t-hese pioui&.'?i.",rgnour gr-ading and tree renoval 'regulationi. After continuing to seernore destruction or. -th-e_ bluff -area, the "itv
-""a"lilii''r.rt ,"should look at the bluff area as a itroie systen rather than in apiece meal fashion. An ordinanc. "r.itl"g-'. ;ilff ;i;i"iir wiricrrwould be protected by specific .regulatilons-;;; ;;;i;. Thepurpose of the ordinance is to define and rnap "". iig"lfiliii rr"trareas and prevent its destruction fron_i:."ur"rriti.sl--iiiri"s,grading and erosion. The ordinance wilr prese;;--; iliuarleresource of the residents along the btuff, tnl ciiy inJ,"iio".
On Apr_i1 3, 1991, the-planning- Corunission reviewed a proposal bystaff to create a bluff protectlon district ordinance. htr.- q.r,"rarstandards submitted br staff rrere from tt "
-
"", rirr'"nBi"r.rraregulations. The pranning couunissi.on, ror irr"-n"si p"ri,'-"", i"favor of such an ordinanie. cororaissioner Erhart felt that theordinance nav be to? .ex-tTeng in protecti"g .Ei= "iliii i'tl citythat shourd be pernitted to be deieroped. irr" nr"nning ioimi.s:.ondirected staff to further work on tuJ lroposed orainaice.'-''-
After.the Planning Commission meeting, staff net rrrith ConnissionerErhart and Rick sathre. of sathre 6irgquist to i."i"r'-'i-"-=1 rro,extensive the DNR regulations are and it irrEr! "; ;;;;;-"itlrrin tn"city that would be impacted that should not be regulated. It Lrasdeterrnined that the proposed regulations aia i" r-.Lii g" ily"ni stratthe intent of the city nay be a-na it was then decided that a bruff
q l-7
-/ t/l
BLuff Line Preservation District
Uay 10, 19 91
Page 2
protection ordinance should be designed specifically .for theMinnesota River Valley and Bluff Creek area in the city.
Staff has had the Engineering Departnent denote the bluff areas onaerial naps. It is staffrs intention to fornally adopt a bl.uf f),ine rnap and that those areas designated on the uap wiLl beprotected by the new bluff protection ordinance. The ordinancewill regulate only those areas designated on the map. Staff has.notified the property oirners affected by the ordinance and hasinvited then to the public hearing on June 19, 1991.
The draft ordinance has been changed to include exemptions forexisting structures, create an official nap, setbacks from the toeof the b1uff, requirenent for an earth lrork pernit and protectionof existing drainage patterns. The DNR has subnitted a reviseddefinition of top and toe of the b1uff. This revision addressesthe concern that the first definition resulted in nore than a 30foot setback fron the actual top of the bluff. Staff has added the
revised definitions to the ordinance.
Staff feels that the bluff protection ordinance Irill be verybeneficial to the city to prevent past problens fron occurr j.ng.
The bluff protection ordinance rrill help prevent the destruction of
the bLuff line such that has occurred on the Mike sorenson property
Iocated on Hwy. 212 (clearing and grading) and on the Halla Nurserysite ( indiscrirninate fitling of a bLuff valley).
RECO}T'i ENDATION
staff reconmends
motion:
the Planning Cornrnission adopt the following
I'The Planning Cornrnission reconnends approval of a zoning ordinance
anendment to chapter 20 of the Chanhassen city code, the Zoning
ordinance, concerning protection of bluffs as Bhown on Attachment
#1."
ATTACHMENTS
Proposed amendnent.
DNR definitions dated Hay 15, 1991.
Planning Connission minutes dated April 3, 1991.
1
2
3
Section 1. Section 2O-1, Definitions is hereby anended byadding the following:
Bluff. Bluff neans a topographic feature such as a hi]1,cliff, or embankment having tfre t-offowing characteristics:
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPTN COUNTIES, UINNESOTA
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE AUENDTNG CHAPTER 20 O!' THE
CHANHASSEN CITy CODE, THE ZONING ORDTNANCE
The City Council of the City of Chanhassen ordains:
(1) The slope rises at least 25 feet abovebluff; and
the toe of the
(2) The grade of the slope from the toe of the bluff to apoint 25 feet or nore above the toe of the sfope ivlrages30t or greater.
(3) An area with an average slope of less than 18g over idistance for 50 feet oi roore iha1l not be consi-alrea partof the bluff.
Bluff fnpact Zone. Btuff i:npact zone means a bluff and landlocated within 20 feet frorn Lhe top of a bIuff.
rntensive vegetatio' cleariDg. rntensive vegetation clearingmeans the complete renoval of trees or shrubi in a contiguouspatch, strip, row or b1ock.
Toe of the bluff. Toe of the bluff rDeans the point on a bluffwhere there is, as visualry observed, a cteaity iaentitraurebreak in the slop_e, fron gentler to iteepe, "iep;-J;;;. rfno break in the slope is apparent, the toi of thi uiuir-sna:.rbe detennined to be the lower end of a 50 tooi-segment,measured on the ground, lrith an average slope exceeai.ni rat.
Top of the bluff. Top of the bluff Deans the point on a bruffwhere there is, as visually observed, a creaily iaentitiarrebreak in the slop-e, from sleeper to gentler sf6p- J;;;. rfno break in the.slope is appaient, thl top of tnl Uiuir-srrarfbe determined to be -the, gpp"" Lnd of i so iL"J ""g*"r,t,rneasured on the ground, with an average slope exceeaini fa*.
. -E?cti9n4. Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code is anenAedby adding ArticLe XXVIfI to read as folLows:
_ . Development, excavation, clearcutting and other activitieswithin the bluff iupact zone Day result in increased dangers oferosion, increased visibility to surrounding properties and lherebyendanger the natural character of the land and jeopardize thehealth, safety, and welfare of the citizens of the City. Topreserve the character of the bluff inpact zone rrithin the City,alteration to the bluff inpact zone will not be pernitted except lsregulated by.this Article and by the regulations of the underlyingzoning district where the property is located.
IRTICI,E XNIII.
BI.,UFF PROTECTION
section 2o-1aoo. stateneDt of InteDt.
sectioD20-1401. Structuresetbacks.
(1) Stairways and lifts nay not exceed four (4) feet in width
on residential 1ots. Wider stairways may be used for
comrnercial properties, public open space recreationalproperties, and planned unit developments.
(2) Landings for stairuays and lifts on residential lots maynot exceed thirty-two (32) square feet in area. Landingslarger than thirty-two (32) square feet may be used for
commercial properties, public open space. recreationalproperties, and pLanned unit developnents.
(3) Canopies or roofs are not allowed on stairuays, lifts, or
J.andings.
(4) Stairways, lifts and landings nay be either constructed
above the ground on posts or placed into the ground,provided they are designed and built in a nanner that
ensures control of soil erosion-
2
(1) Structures, including but not 1i:nited to decks and
accessory buildings, except stairways and landings, areprohibited on the bluff and nust be set back fron the topof the bfuff and toe of the bluff at least thirty (30)feet.
(2') On parcels of land on which a buiLding has already been
constructed on June 1, 1991, the Eetback fron the top ofthe bl.uff is five (5) feet.
Section zo-Ltoz. Stairuays, Lifts and LandllDgs.
Stairrrays and lifts shal] be used for access up and dor.rnbluffs. Major topographic alterations are prohibited. stairerays
and lifts must meet the foll.owing design requirements:
(5) stainrrays, lifts and landings nust be located in the nostvisually inconspicuous portions of Iots.
(6) Facilities such as ranps, lifts, or nobility paths forphysically handicapped persons are also allowed, providedthat the dimensional and perfornance standards of sub-iteus (1) to (5) are conplieit with.
SectioD 20-1a03. ReBoval o! llteratio! of Vegetatioa.
Removal or alteration of vegetation is allohred within a bluffimpact zone subject to the following .Etandards:
(1) Linited clearing of trees and shrubs and cutting, pruning
and trimning of trees is allowed to provide a view fromthe principal dwelling site and to accommodate theplacement of stairuays and landings and access paths.
(2) Intensive vegetation cleaning is prohibited.
Section 20-1a0{. Topograpbic tlteratioDs/cradiDg aDd filliDg.
. - The drainage fron property within the bluff inpact zone maynot be redirected without a pernit fron the City. The pernit sha1lbe granted if the proposed alteration does not idversely affect thebluff irnpact zone or other property. An earth vork perurit wiII berequired for the movement of nrore than ten (10) c-ubic yards ofmaterial within bluff irnpact zones. Filr or excavated -material
sha11 not be placed in bluff impact zones.
Section 2O-1,105. Roadts, Drl.vevaye aDd parkiDg Areas.
Roads, driveways, and parking areas must meet structuresetbacks and nust not be placed vithin bluff inpact zones lrhenother reasonabLe and feasible placenent alternativEs exist. ff noalternatives exist, they nay be placed within these areas, and nustbe designed to nininize adverse inpacts.
Section 12-1106. Official Uap.
This ArticLe shatl apply only to the bluff inpact zonesIocated on the official bluff irnpact zone rnap dated Ju;e 1, 1991,which is i.ncorporated herein by reference and which is on fiie withthe City Clerk.
_ Eectioa 3. This ordinance sha1l be effective inrnediately uponits passage and publication.
3
PaSSED IND I'DOPTED by the Chanhassen City Council this _day of , 1991.
ATTEST:
Don Ashsrorth, Clerk/lilanager Donald J. Chniel, Mayor
(Published in the Chanhassen Villager on _, 1991. )
4
"Top of Bluff' and "Toe of B'luff"
DEFII{ITIONS
tlay 15, 1991
The Land Use Cormittee
fol I owi ng definitions d
in lts
rafted
l,lay l5
by the ' 1991, meeting dlscussed and agreed on the
shoreland managernent staff:
I Top of.the Bluff. -'Top of the bluff, means the polnt on a bluff rherethere is, as visually observed, a clearly ldentlflable break ln the slope,from.steeper-tq-gent'ler.slope above. If-no break ln the slope ls apparlni,
.the top of bluff sha'l] be detennined to be the upper end of i so-fobi
segment, measured on the ground, uith an average slope exceedlng lgpercent.
Toe of the Bluff. .Toe of the bluff. means the polnt on a bluff yhere
there is,-as visually observed.. a clearly ldentiiirble break in the siope,from gentler-to-stee3er. slope above.. tf'no break ln the s'lope ls apparint,the toe of bluff shal'l be diterrained to be the lorer end ot i SO_to5[-'segment, measured on the ground, r.lth an average slope exceeding 1g
pe rce nt.
2
I
Plannin3
AF.ri I -.,
Conriission tleeti n9
1991 - F age 4e
Kr ausg
Emmings: Paul had some specific questions onreport here. Or Jo Ann. f'm sorry.
the summary on p,age 6 of his
Po you want to start this now given the time?
won't teke that long. Yeah, I think we.Emming:: I have
ought to cjo it.
a feeling this one
Erhart: Yeah. I've got some issues on it.
Emmings: The only one f 've got, since I've got the floor, was h,hen you
talk about the bluff impact zone urithin 20 feet of the top of the bluff.jrrst t.::.n:]e r why it isn't a bigger number. The bluf f impact zone tal ks
about, pa2e 2 is, I don't know urhy it's not 1OO feet?
I
Erhart: l,ilat lir,e are you on?
Emmin?s: P693 2. Bluff Impact Zone.
Ellscn: S.ecor'd rna jor paragraph.
Erhart: Und"r i tenT 1?
Emmings: No above there Hhere it's defined.
Olsen: sctu;IIy they're finding the oPposite. Th6t the definition of
bluff is r^rhere it has to be 3OZ for a certain amount and then if it levels
out, than the steep slope or it's not a bluff so actuallv, the way bluffs
usual.ly are, is that there L,iIl be a steeP sloPe and then you'Il have it
levelins out but that still, the toP of this is still' or the toP of the
bluff so you actually alyeady have a Prettv decent amount of area leveling
out from the bluff before vou do take that 20 feeL.
Batzli: I t hought the bluff, the only part
Has over 3O?.. ThaL's uhere I hJas confused.
of the bluff was the part that
olsen: But the top of the bluff is a higher point. ...segment with
So you've got 3Oz. and then you could have anything with 18?. That's
considered part of the bluff.
Erhart: 50 foot?
Olsen: In fact, I don't know that you need more
The DNR finds that Lhe 2oz might even be...
urhat I'm getting at.
90tset
restrictions on
back 30 feet. A
1AZ.
still
Emmi ngs: Let me tell
bluff inpact- zone but
structure only, what?
you, r^rell oka),.
a building only
g - .' you 've
neecis to be
the
Erhart; You're getting into the broader question but I r^,a nt to
bring up here ar,d that is. Hv imPression of Lhis, I guess I've
comment, to
bee n
BLUFFLINE PRESERVATION ORDINANCE.
F',J.e r, n.I r.3April 3,
Commission Meet i nsi99! - Page 49
Erhart:
val.u€ cfit.
Yeah, I ju stthe bluff is don't u ndersland
thaL someone can
it. To me that's part of the bigbuild on it and take advanlage of
Erha;t: S.ec:cr,d concern of the whole thing is thenot ol:]y -iust apply to bluffs but I'It teII you.the city of Chanhassen that this thing will make
Hay this reads it wiIIThere's a lot of hills inpractically unbuildable.
Erhert: Eecause r'll teLl you, and the reason r ask. you're taking thisout c f t he a r',f? shoreland ordinance and you tal k about 2s f eet above theordinary. high water and then you're just taking that numbei and applying itto nuri:ber- one. And you,re saying that a slope rising at ieast 25 feetabove the toe of the slope, not the high water mark and r think thatnumber's too small. I like the overali thing. f realiv-li[e it butr think where i.t's setLing too broad and we,ie soine io'u.-ipprying thisthing to hills. As a result, you,re going to frive i major impact on howthings rajll s,et done and I don't think thit was our iniint. I have a lotof hills on my property that are over 25 feet tall.
Batzli: Ne can limit it to the BF DistricLs.
Emmings: t^,tith slopes like these?
Erhart: Oh yeah.
Emmi ngs: But you
do you?
don't want to buil.d at the top of a steep slope like that
Erhart:
Emm i ngs :
I think that's what's
Right up to the edge
].Jel1 the deck.
valuable about the .Iand.
of it though?
Erhart:
pusl-,insr tc tr)'to preserve this bluff and everything Iike that from
conii+rc jal cleveJ.opment. On the other hand, I guess I'm a IittLe awestruckby t l-,is whole thing is that one of the'things I'm trying to preserve is sopeople can build houses on top of the bluff and overlook it and I guess myreactic,n is, I'm concerned we're being too restrictive in terms of the guy
who u,ant: to build his house and have a deck that is up essentially to whatyou call the lop of the bluff and have it essentially overlook the valleyand stuff. A lot of which those existing houses are there. you're
applying standards r"rhich really are, there's all kinds of houses there nor.rwhich r^rould not meet this standard and I really question r,rhy we're trying.to do that when r thought urhit we urere trying to do Nas protect the bli.rf ffrom der.,elopment right essentially doun in the valley and that area there.My conce;'n is now, that's one concern. It kind of goes against what.you're.
Emming:: yeah, because I'm including the top of the b]uff.
Emminss: r don't mind them building houses on top of it but f think theyought to be set back a ways.
F'1ani,.l
l:r'r i l
Emr,i ng,=:
where :
C cnrn, i ssion
I ?91 - Page
Meet i n9n?
Ahr ens:
Arrd 7-cLr don't wcrry about having a deal like in Califorrria hereg:, =Liding. auay down the hiIl.
C;h in Eden prairie.
Cr Eden -rairie just during that 1OO year storm there Nere some of
I th:ueh! this r^riIl aIl about protecting bluffs, not protecting
the developmeru' of houses on the top of them.
going to be hav.ing to adopt these with our Shoreland
Erhart: In the first place you 've got SO feet of an 18 foot slope and thenyou've gct another 30 feet of the setback. you're talking aboutrestricting a lot. of land from use by lot'owners.
Emming=: That's r^rhat I thought this r.las all about.
Ellson: ft u:es for i.rnpact wasn't it? ft u,asn't to save a bunch of deckson top of the bluff. You're preservj.ng how nice it looks.
Elleon:tho-.:...
Ahrens:
then for
Olsen: he're
Or cii nance .
Erhert: I ur,deretand that but there has to be a point where you draw a
line. I m€.=n if people want to build houses, u,hy don't we just say you
car,'t Lui]d houses on lakes because I don't urant to drive by in my boat and
see: hou:e .3r,i you wouldn'! have a house. So there's a practical Limit
anC I thir,k ure'\ie gone, u,rhat scares me is apparently some of these numbers
are already in:orporated into the DNR ordinance.
Erhait: 25 feet is, that's nothing. That's a hiII here in Chanhassen.
Ther.'s e lct of places that are hills that have nothing to do r^,ith tlhat
we're ia.jking about hluffs that uiII fall into this regulation.
Emming:: They did say, somewhere in here they told us what you thought
would actually be protected here. I don't know. f can't get too excited
abouL a hil:.. I don't knor.r exactly what a hill is I guess.
Olsen: It's steep slopes
development of that.
was urhat maybe you're picturing and you do allow
Erhert: That's r.:hat f'm saying but I think r.rith this ordinance t,e're not
going to anymore.
OIsen: Yeah.
talked about the land that went by the golfEmmings; Remember Tim when we
course and somebody uianted to
out over the bluff almost and
Both because it imposed on the
it didn't, well I don't know.
me in addition.
house that t^ras kind of going to hang
h,e u,ere all real opposed to that.
there, the valley that Has there and
build aI think
creekI remember thinking it didn't sound safe to
PIerr:',ir,?
April 3,
Cornmission Meet i n9
1997 - Pag€ 51
Erhart: Eut Steve, there's a difference between 80 foot setback. you have
182 s l ope .
Emm i r,gs :tlhy are you saying 80?
Because you have 50 feet of 182.
You've got 50 feet going what direction?
Back from essentially uhere the 30? slope is
18e" slope and then you've gbt another 30 feet
Erhart:
Emmi ngs:
Emmi ngs: From urhat?
Erhart: From what I would consider
Erhart:feet of
80 feet.
Emm i ngs :
I lm -
Then you have 50of setback. That's
really nhere
Look at this
the bluff
diagram.
star ts .
Look at this oneI don't agree with that.
Erhart: The top of the bluff means.
EIlsc,n; There's a picture of it. It's described here.
Emmings: A Ficture's worth a thousand urords.
Erhart: f 've _oot it. Let me read it for you. The top of the bluff meansthe higher point of a 50 foot setgment with an average slope exceedins 1gz.
Conrad: Qkay, and that's this part.
Erhart: Nc,, that's the 3OZ. I'm reading the ordinance to you.
O.Lsen: The top of the bluff is where it levels out...
Emmingrs: Put this one up.
Erhart: I knou but that doesn't agree with r.lhat it says here-
Emmings: I Lhink you're reading steep slopes. Isn't that the steepslopes?
O]sen: The steep slope is kind of between these areas and that's whereceir was saving that either 20 feet...and then in the area of 182, then youhave. This nould be the top and then you'd have 20 feel setback from here.
Emmings: I like that better.
Erhart: It's Nhere your 30? is. Then you have another 50 feet where itdrops down to 182. I'm just sayingr so then you finally get to the top andthen you'\,e got another 30 feet so your house is 80 feet back from where.
F lanril r,:
April 3,
Comnrigsion Meet i n9
1997 - Page 52
Emmi ngs: tJell you're the
mi nd?
Erhart: If vou go ualk those Minnesota River bluffs, it's far more commonrin fact you have variations aII the way up like this. It doesn't go up anjjust stop like that picture. That's not the way that t,linnesota Vaileylooks. In fact m not even sure, urelr. r quite frankly think it'i goinsto get a hard time. It's 9oin9 to get so restrictive because the faci tnJtit dips back down. It,s pretty idealistic.
Emmings: Havbe we ought to step back because I thought r.lhat we !.tere tryingto do here r^ras keep development off Lhe top. The edge of the slope. tJedon't want to see development on the slope itself and basically from theriver to the lop of the slope a little urays back we didn'L want to see anydevelopment. That's r,Jhere I thought we Here coming from.
ElIson: So nature wise it just looked Iike 1OO years, . .
so r.lhat di d you have i none urho proposed this
Erhart: J never .had in mind that. f Has trying to get rid of thedevelopnrent actually down by the highway. This is all kind of shocking tome. I'm not opposed to me because I think it wiII work but I'm just saying,there's got to b,e really, we really need to define trhat our goals are here._I guess I cJcn't have any problem with the houses way up there that have
deci..s tl-rat come right to the edge because they like to Iook over theva]Iey. I really have no probLem r.lith that. It's no different than other
houses around. Housing. on lakes. ft's an amenity that those people want
and jt's really not that intrusive-
Emn:ings: And residential development like that at the top of the bluffdoesn't bother you but you r^louldn't want to see any other kind?
Erhartr f don't Hant to see commercial/industrial development in thevalley or situations, tJe don't Nant houses on 3OZ slope. I absolutelyagree with that because of the erosion problem. And the thing is, that
sounds good here but there's a ]ot of places in the worfd where houses arebuilt on 3OZ slope as a rule.
Emmings: And they r.rash out into the ]ake.
Conrad: They shouldn't be there.
Erhart: LlelI you wouldn't build a house in Puerto Rico- Nobody would livethere in Puerto Rico if you couldn't build a house on a 30* slope.--
Conradi Let me follow up. The reason for the setbacks Jo Ann r.rould be forerosion? l,^,hen rde had that 20?
Olsen: The DNR's big
Again. this ordinance
thing is more visual,. They h,ant to keep things.is for the shoreland ordinance so it's bluffs along
Emr,j rrgs: rn that peculiar case yeah but what about here where you,ve gotno 18 at al]? It goes up 30 and then it starts to Ievel off.
Planr'in9
April 3,
Comn,ission Meet i n9
79<r1 - F'age 53
Erhartr f agree and maybe what we haveuant to protect in this manner. lthereprotect those areas. On the other handLotus Lake and you've got 1,OOO houses
to do is find out u,hat areas u,eyou don't uant to see anything andyou've got a guy uho owns a ]ot onthat are parked right up !o the edge
the lal:s sc- they don't went it cleered.completely right up so you carr seethe hor.c. The setback is for visual burt also for erosion.
conrad: r just kept thinking that rim, if vou put a house right on theedge of the bluff, you've got a lot of b,ater coming off your roof and itjust seemsd, you ^nohr for a rain storm, it just seems liie you 'reaccentuatin3 the erosion. That's how r interpretted the ordinance. rf youkeep vour house back a .l.ittle bit, you're reducing the erosion. tlaybethat's not a big deal but that was my interpretation of the reason. r1ineHasn't visual.
Ellson: PIus not alr the decks are good looking and things Iike that.
Ahrens: It's too windy to have a deck up there anylJay.
Erhart: This can be applied, unless I'm reading it wrong, to a lot ofhills in the ciry that have nothins to do with blrff=. iiZ ,i=".
Krauss: That's a questi,on we have uhen we looked at starting to puttogether e map of where these things occur, It,s not only the HinnesotaRiver bluff Iines. rt's around toius take. rt's in some'different areasand there are more than r think ure wourd have in"rgr,t.- iou,re raising avalid point- on the orher hand, r think there's .-pi"ur"i with allowingpeople to clear cut 30 foot openings in tree cover because they a.rant toIook at the t'li nnesota River .
Erhart: I have no problem with that.
Krauss: rJe've beerr talking.to a couple of guys who are amateur naturalistr'rho grew up in this area and have been-walkins eluff-ciee[ for zo years andl?rlq fike the city to be more active in pi""Jr"ine tI"-iitrral areas ofBLuff crerk around the golf .our"". -nna lney ; r. -oif
"fIO ,'- I think ue,regoins to probablv try to schedule this for ll.y ""r"iir.l' inry,re goins toconduct a tour, a ualking tour of the area down tteie ana I Has going toinvite you and the park Board and whoever hranted to €,o on the City Council.But they pointed out, there's a new home being Ouiit-.nJ"it,s by one of LheRedmond son-in-law's on an Bo acre tract of gi"unJ-p.=i tie gotf course onBluff creek Drive - you can go to see it. r^ri"i" tfl!i-i"i"ou, setbackrequirement from Bluff Creek. The creek itsel f - but'-in.i -"iopp.d , I meanit's a very steep bluff where thev buiit ana tfrei-ctr.prlal'clear cut thetrees so that rheir..home.could be huns very dranati;;iit: It,s aspectacular home - Huns dramatically out over tnis piisiine valley. Andthese suvs said rhev were horrified- rhev were'wIriiiJ-ii.,i"ueh rhere andhere's this area that no intrusion-has-ever u..n in "ni io* vo, uralk upthere and you see this thing over hangins the valley."-Noi-tf,"y may oun it.Thev do o,,n part of ir. but ihould ir,"i-t."e b.;;-;li;*.d'-io intrude in tharway? I haven,t seen that aspect of it but tf," =p""i"i-Jf-it I findtroublins.
Plannir,g
April 3,
Comnrission Meet i ng
) 99). - Page 54
of the cliff, and rrow this guy just becauseyeay., now Llants to build houses, his housefurt her than al I the existing houses?
he hasn't built
has got to be 80
on tt
fee t
for 3O
back
Emmings: No he doesn't because isn't Lhere a regulation that saysyou're coming into an established neighborhood you can vary, or you
so you're building up at the level of r.,here the existing homes are?
ifbuild
ol sen:
we can
Ordinance itself but that's somethins that
Krauss: AIso, it should not apply.' I mean if you've got rolling terrain,
we're in marin country here. The glacier stopped here and dumped out piles
of rocks all over the place and noh, some of them have trees on it or
they're steep. Those kinds of things are sort of abberations on the
landscepe and just because they're steeP, you're right. They shouldn't
automaticalLy trip this regulation necessarily.
Emmings: I clorr't thjnk that's our intent.
conrad: tJhat you just said about building on a lake and steeP sloPe -
There's just rro uay it should be done. Just absolutely no h,av so I dbn't
care what the previous residents did. There should be no buiiding on a
steep slope going to the lake. There's no way they can Prevent erosion
90in9 in theie. There's absolutely no u,ay.
That's in the Shore] and
appl y to this ordinance.
Erhart:Are
tJe l l
I'M
Conrad:
Erhart:
Conrad: But Steve
don't bel i eve thaL
Ellson:
Emm i ngs :
Kr auss:
Ta na doo na
you talking about steeP sloPes? 3OZ oY 78.z?
3(j>. .
rrot disagreeing with that Ladd. But h,hat
was making a point and
that should be done.
I uas making
we've got
a counter
here.
point.I
Erhart: Again, my concern is thaL vou've got 80 feet of 182 that ue're
also restricting and again while it may be appropriate for the, you knor.l
the Biuff Creek thing by the golf course is the classic case. It's level
and man it drops but most other areas don't quite fit the classic case. I
think we'v got to Put some more thought into this.
Emmings; I don't think anybody sitting up here had hills in mind ulhen ure
started alL this.
No. In fact I'm only looking at one Place in all of
I was thinking Minnesota River Vallev-
You know but it's across Lake }ljilnewashta from vou.
where those homes are Perched uP on tha! bank-
Chanhassen.
It's off that
Emmings: t^Jell there's two Places by the lake. There's Minne.'Jashta.
Thereis around in that little bay qhere there's some houses high on the
PlanningApriI 3,
Cc,n,;, i ss i on l',1eet i n9
1991 - Page 55
hill arrd therr there's that old Governor 's mansion that probably would fitin tf',is. Th.re's a real steep hiII there, which I think is the one you'rementior,ing. It's right on the Tanadoona property. Or Tuna Noodle as wecall it. That's right on tha! properti.
Conr ad: But i f we 'rebluffs regardless.Iooking at bluffs, I guess we've got Lo be look.ing at
Emmi ngs: t"le don 't have to .
. Conr ad: Don 't ule?
Emmi ngs : t^te don 't have to
Erhart: t^.le don't have to.
(rauss: eI I you could.can agree on where thosedesignate that.
goals of uJhat.
bl uffs -
do anything.
Define our
Erhart: ttel I initially t!. go"I h,as to preserve the l,1innesota River Valleyand I think we shourd incrude Bluff creek and some or ir,.="-"ther ravinesthat feej. into the Hinnesota River. r think we've sot-fo-Jeciae urhetheruie're trying to preserve bluffs on Lotus Lake and l.,linneuashta.
Conrad: tJell if it appl.ies, I think we should
Conrad: So the goal is to preserve the
Erhart: Maybe reNrite it so it doesn't apply.
Emmings: See on llinnewashta and Lotus I r.rould expect that theShorelarrd (rrdinance r^rill apply and taie care of that. f Jon,t think we,vegot to worrv about that. [^re've already got something that covers that. Tome this wae, and r agree with Tim. The idea *.s tr'.-Ni"....ta RiverVallev- The creek beds that come doun to it and r a"n;i in"w, maybe u,e canspec.i f y r,rhere it applies.
You could dothings shou I d
this asbe fou nd
an
or
overlay district. If r^reare found, ue can
Olsen: It's going to be tough.saying where you want to prot6ctmeets the 30% slope that we don'tIt'd be hard to determine, how dobluf f .
l.le know certain bluff areas like you,rethem but there might be a bluff area thatknou about but should still be protecieC.you know brhat's a bluff and what's not a
Emm i ngs :there topographi c maps that yol
OIsen:to have one of our engineering
Emmings: I suppose you go crazy looking at them.
can look aL?
techni c.ia ns try to.
it's bluffs but the same, untilbe required to shou us what's
Aren't
I started
Olsen: He goes crazy because.like you say,that develc,prytent comes in, then they ulould
PIannir,gApril 3,
Commission Meet i ng
1991 - Page 56
bluff
wouLd
anC what's steep slope h,hen they come in urith their plan. Then He
k noi: .
KrauEs: f guess I don't think, yeah I agree with Joprobability exactlv delineate uhere this happens butof box jn areas wr.ere this ordinance applies.
Ann.
what
tJe ca n 't
ure ca n do
lnis all
sort
Krauss: I don't think they do. I think they just have a standing
ordinance that applies wherever it occurs. In fac! it's calIed the steep
s.Lope ordinence. It's not the bluffline.'
Batzli: r agree urith Tim. I think the original intent.of this uas toprotect something that, I mean Lre have a major thoroughfare through the
city ar,d ,Je r4ere trying to avoid having it all commercialized and ruin the -bluff in the rreantinre but f guess I'm not adverse to where it's going a
little bit. I don't know that somebody, I guess I urould rather see
somebody' have to have a selback off the top of the bluff. I think that's a-
reasonable requirement r'guess. I Iike the direction of it and I guess I
don't n,ind applying it to other places in the citv-
Conrad: So far f agree with that until I can get a better feeling of uhat
we're talking at,out and how it would restrict development or hurt PeoPle. I
like th: general direction. I don't think ure're taLking hills. As much as
I'd ljke to preserve hi]ls, I don't want to bulldoze them bu! I don't know
th6t this, that that's the poinL of this ordinance.
olsen: I thi.nk...definition of bluff. It might be steeP sloPe but
that aIIows alteration with certain conditions which uould be nice
too.
again,to have
It
Erhart:
consider
Ma ybe
t,,Jere
what I can do is shor.r you some areas of where I lould
the areas of concern. Haybe I misunderstand-
9o
in
Krauss: Let's out someday and see if it appl ies .
figure out where it is.Olsen: Or come and Iook at the toPos and
Farmakes: uould the area inbetb,een Lake Ann Park and Greenwood Shores
Park, there's a steeP slope area there off of the Eckankar ProPerty'
over looks Lake Ann.
Krauss: There's actually
Farma kes: t^lould that be
a little bit of a bluff there.
considered a bluff? It seems to nake this grade -
enough distance though to meet this .def inition.
topo .
back to you with some more information. t.le'Il
thi ngs .
Olsen: It might not
t^le'd have to look at
have
the
Krauss: tJhy don't ue come
follow up on some of these
Erhart: Is that what Eden Prairie does?
PIs:irin3April -:,Conrriission Heet i n9
i991 - Fage 57
Emmi ngs: You can
Emrni ngs: l,JeIl the definition of bluff includes a hiII so you're soing to
hav-- t i lo >")'-i 're going to have to.
E I I son :
that.
Call it a steep slope ordinance. Nol,J you know why they h,ent with
Olsen: It gives
be e steep hi I I .
caII it a bluff but maybe you don't uJant it a hill.
you the specifics that it has to be-.. l'4aybe that could
Erhart: I think the number that really hit me h,as the...in Chanhassen isjust nothing. If we had picked enough. It could be just a hil.l and whereyou have clevelopment, you may have one street on the top of the hill and
houses up there and then another level of the street. That's real commonthroughout our city. The number I would have picked for that Has SO. Ithink woulC have then defined it more as a really big change in elevation.25 feet jn Chanhassen is nothing. This room is tO feet hieh. Thedifference betr.reen different neighborhoods is 25 feet. you,re chewing up80 fect potentially of making land unuseable. That's where I b,as going. Ithought- the number ought to be 50. tJhat's concerning me is that apparentlythey've al'ready adopting 25 in the shoreland ordinence. Hor.rever, it onlyapplies to shoreland areas so if we Hant to pick that number,.I'm justtrying to point ou! lhat it's going to be applied to a ]ot of places thature hadn't considered.
Erhart: Do we have a mowing ordinance here that
comes out?
Emmings: Yeah, you can be tagged.
if you don't mou, the City
Emmi n5:s: Alright. Pau.l's got I think the next thing tre ought to do isPaul's got some news about various things. oh, r have to go back to thelandscape crcli narrce for one minute- Here's a folder I'm going to give toPauI. rt's fron the Minnesota Native plants society. rt's about nativeplant enthusiasm and it's called Ethics and consideration. r knot^r we'vegot an ordinance that says you can't Iet areas grow wild and have t^reeds andal] that ar-rd r also know that there's, it's getting to be more and morecommon and it's promoted by this t,linnesota Native plant Society and otherprivate concerns to landscape using natural prairie grasses and otherthings that are not mor.red. r even saw a bookreL out at the Arboretumahen r r.res out there one day that had a proposed ordinance in it urhich rmeant to copv and forgot about but rlr get a copy and get that in, But rthink we ought to, basically this thing said if people b,ant. to try andconvince the citv and Lheir neighbors that what they're doing isn't justIetting their yard 9o, they've got to do things tike keep track of theexPenditure and the effort that went into landscaping u,iLh natural plants.
Make sure they're keeping just common t,eeds out of it and making an effortto maintain it, even though that doesn't include mowing. f don;t know. I'like that idea. I think it's appropriate. f thought about doing it in myown yard. Letting some areas go natural.
F l a nni:-, 3ApriI 3,
Ccni:',,is5iqt Meet i ng19t1 - F.a se 58
Krauss: lnl. have a noxious weed ordinance. But the Needs have to meetnarrc!: claf i;jt-16p of L,eing noxious and t.here,s a defined Iist. So youb,e aL,le to E.:t away with doing this right now. you may get comtrl.aintsbut I'm not sure the City could do anything about it assuming that youactually achieving that type of a yard.
the
may
're
Emm i ng
forec.L
our orr'11 t,
i: Okay. NelI I trould just hate to see that kind of landscapingosed k',ecause I thjnk it's kind of interesting. If you don,t thinkCinance does that, then f'm not going to u,orry about it. Otheruise
r j ng i n that ordinance that f sar^,.
Krauss: I'd be interested ih taking a look at it.
Emmings: Oka)., I'11 do that.
Ahren=:
9ragses.
It's larrdscaped around the University of Minnesota with prairie
Emmi ngs: tJ her e?
Ahrerrs: Around, it's been so many years f can't remember the name of the
bu j Idi ngs .
Ahrens: Yeah. It's around Northrup Auditorium and around the, they've
landscaFed these beautiful areas and they heve planters wi'th naturalgrasses around the architecture building. Around aII the older buildingsin thcre and it's just beautiful . But you know those are hard to find. The
seeds and stuff are.
Erhart: It sounds like you're trying to screen the El.ectrical Engineering
Bui ldi ng. f can understand that.
Batzli: tJeII they built a new one you know.
Emmings: ft's 1O:2O and it's time for PauI's News.
Krauss: Nour for something really different. l.Je have a new Metro Councilrepresentative. Bonnie Featherstone uho resides in Burnsville. I can tell-you that that raised a few eyebrows amongst a number of people that, DakotaCounty has three representatives because of a quirk of how the districLslay out. And there hras concern that j.f somebody isn't truly from theurestern suburban area, is he or she going to be representative. I.don't
know how that's 9oin9 to turn out but I got in contact uith her ye;terday,or tod3y, f can't recall, and we had a 45 minute conversation and I foundher to be very receptive to having an open mind and she's going to come out-here and meet urith us. The Hayor and the City Hanager will take her to
Iunch and show her the community and fill her in on the Comprehensive Plan.
She says that she's not territorial. She doesn'L have a political agenda - -
Emr,i r,gs: iil-'ich campus? Which State?
Emmings: There's a private, Prairie Restoration is a private company thatdeels in these kinds of seeds.
Flarrir;
Ar.r i I ? ,
Comrnis:ion
7?i7 - trase
Mee L i ng
5,9
Tl-,at s.i-,e 's receptive to making the Hetro Council more responsive to local9:v€rnr .i.'- ir.:l that 's one of her issues .r,lhich is great. So we're trying tooperr up the Iines of communication with a new person and ure're very hopefulthat- th:t will be successful and I'Il keep you posted as to how that'sgojng. The other thing with the Metro Council is they have had our plan
since Febr-uary 28th or urhenever it was, and they have set up a meeting thatf have Lc, g;c, to tomorror^r morning where they're going to have about 6 oftheir s...ef f peotrle u:ho reviewed our plan and who have questions aboutvarious aspects of it. l^lhat I'm hearing is that nobody's coming up uithany bi9 bor,bshells aL this point. That basically they're looking forrefinements and some additiqnaJ. informatio-n. I understand that Hichael
Monson agrees that his population projections were wrong. I guess it's bigof him to finally agree to that but he still won't agree to ulhat,s right.He apparently feels that we should urait a year until. he gets around toredoing hjs numbers which is a position I find ludicrous. But I believethat the re:t c.f the l,letro Council staff is 9oin9 to find a way around it.NoN this has been one of the key issues since the get 9o on this. I don't
knot.r whet els: rie could have done. I mean l,,l i ke's numbers are so f ar out ofwhack that I don't understand why he has any credibility left at all, buthe appare;rtly does. I 'r,iill also keep you posted on that. I'm lakingMark Koegler down there. tle also retained the firm of Bonestroo, Anderlikand Roaane to assist us in represeniing some comprehensive plans, sanitaryser'rer issueE before the Hetro council. The reason for that is we don'thave a City Engineer and the fel.Iour that we're using at Bonestroo, Bobschurricht was the project engineer, consulting project engineer for theMetro [,.]6ste cn the Lake Ann rnterceptor so he's very familiar with thisarea. But again, I'Il keep you posted. Eastern Carver CountyTranin t
fami
what
he
1i
.rt6tion Study. The City basically adopted this because l^le stuck itComprc-hensive trlan which was approved and I think you're somewhatar with it. t^J€'ve never had a chance to get a specific discussion onin it and uJhat are the implications and what else needs to be done.There wa: a meeting held in late December, early January in Carver Countythat we c.oul.dn't go to because we had a city council meeting that night tutwhat ur: hac decided to do uas the same thins that chaska did which uas tohave Roger Gustafson, the County Engineer and Larry Dallam, who is theconsulLant project manager, give us a talk about it and respond toquestions. And lhrough scheduling conflicts of one sort of another, wehaven't been able to arrange it untir recently. Ue're going to be holdingthat discussion at the City Council meeting on Monday. t,te'll be giving iouand the HRA agendas. If you could make iL, that would be great. Ue don'thave a real big council agenda so r don't think it's the kind of thing thatanybody's going to have to sit around until midnight to hear lhis. ButII get vou the agendas out and it should be an informative discussion rthink. l'{edicar Arts Building or Ridgeview Hedicar Arts Building r guess isthe current name. r met r^,ith them after the planning commission meetingand basically, you outlined some parameters for an alternaLive plan thair"rould achieve some additional tenant signage. Basically leaving that
monument sign out front the r.ray it was approved and tinkering with the signL,ands as e Fart of an overall sign package. tJe]l. they've submittedsomething that r.Je think is consistent r.lith t"rhat you wanted to see. No!^,there may be some detailed questions but basically you can see what it doesis it r.:ipes out that middle sign band Lhat r^las the temporary sign. It saysDentaL office and instead replaces it with larger, 4 foot uride instead of 2
foct r:ide sigr, l,and. and in that sign band NouId allow multi-colored signswith logos. AII the other signage on the buirding is supposed to be ther^rhjte letter: ti-,at ere up there rrow. The Goldstar Hortgage, there's aprovi:ir: in the sign covenants that urhen that tenant changes,. they'Il har,,eto br jr';g their =i9n into compliance. As I said, the monument' sign outfront is back to what it's supposed to be. r guess 10 square fett or rofeet r,:ide or whatever it r^ras.
Emmi ngs: L,,hat does it say?
Kraus=It just says the building name.
0kay.
M6C. out of ohat? Did they do any, is it a simple?
I think it's an internally lit, it's a ground mountedc,:: out.., Lexan cut out type of thing,.
There's additional wall signs if you ulant to point that
Ye..h, *'here's b,asically tr.ro new tenant signs.
Sr the/ addeC the...
All in the middle? Yeah.
l. this on both sides of the bui).ding or just the one
Emmi ngs :
Conrad:
Krauss:plastic
OIsen:
Krau:s:
Olsen:
Emmi ngs :
sign Hith
out.
side?
one was
Kraue l : l'.1o. The back sta),s the same as it was.
Farmal.e:: Sr there's one additional sign on top of the two? Thethe dentist sign? Is that correct?
Krau3:--: Yeah - Uhat they did is, I don't think they shoured that.
Farmal.,es; J see three in the middle there.
Krauss: This one now says Chan Dentist.
Farmakes: And what's the one on your left?
Krauss: It says . . .
Farmakes: So there is an additional sign then?
Krauss: Right. There's a total of two more tenant signs ulith this.Thev've given us a set of comprehensive c.venants which r think are okay aslong as they're relying to this kind of ptlckage. There are some addftionalprovisione on what lve r.:ritten in there ri ke this buildins should not beaIlor.red to have anv portable trailer mounted signs out front or banners.It's still an office bu j.Iding. It shouldn't have any paper signs in thewindows or anything else. This should be a sign package.
flannirr; Cofi,'i,iesicn HeecingAprj] ?,799! - Fege 60
Em;-,i ng: : t:€ I l. , but when we say this is what you get, do we a.Iso. have tosei' i:: ! C.n': ?.t- anything else?
liraugs:
olser,:You aLready said that,
Krauss: trelI, we nour have it in a covenant package that we file with theprop.-:'t),. No"r what ue've done thus far is we've u,ritten it up to the City.council an'i said that the Planning commission denied their application butthat vou seem to indicate that this was along the rines of ulhat you r^,4ntedto see. t"t e told the City Council that you have two options. you caneither interpret what the Planning Commission said and approve this or youcan aFprc\/€ it in concept and send i! back to the planning commission fordetai l e.J revieLl and approval . r guess d Like your feedback on ulhat you,dpref:r. C-,sttin9 jt back here for your final revieo. Is this reallyconsist-eit r.rith what you uere thinking?
ConracJ ; Did >'o;.r sa), that Has a 4 foot strip in the middLe versus a Z?
Krauss: Ri sht -
Emr,!n3:: lt loc,fs smaller, not bigger on thjs drawing
Ahrens: Tl.f-'s done on purpose.
I, hi nl, yc'u do.
Kreuss: t.reII no, Iccrpor6t-? logos and
bui Lt arc,.-rnd Lhat .thal- lor! stream of
think r^rhat they're showing isthey tend to be a little moreThey've got the r^ridth so theyletLers.
you're goi n9 uith your
compact and dense anddon't need the length for
there'sare the
I'm havi ng
back that
c"f
'-zl j : Al I I can say is when u.re get the stuff , make sureplans with one date and all the dimensions on the plansaLe as r.rhat they say. you know this is just incredible.
one set
same
Con)-aJ: Do ure like the two different size of bands? Ilittle. t.it of a problem. I didn't think it r.ras going ioand I know some of us said we liked taller.
9UeSS
come
a
uja y
Ahrens: I didn't think it was going to come back multi-colored. Iguess m a little confused paul when you said Lhe next tenant who replacesthe Goldstar Mortgage sign is going to have to bring the siJn intocompliance because it,s not in compliance nora, because it's iot r.rhitelettering but He're going to allow colored signs in tr,E miaJre. Thatdoesn't make any sense to me.
Krauss: That's where it gets, that's uhere it becomes subjective and alittle different. r wasn'r sure uhether thar met the criilii;-a;ri ;";r,,,ere telhing abrout or no!. But what they're talking about is the urhitelettering on the outside wings and on the portico's] rhe only othervariance to that would be the.colored signs with ]ogos in the middle.
Farmakes: These are backlit after hours right? After business hours?
F:.1 arr': r; C,-:-^:::lt.n Meel i ngAFril :, 1')':1 - F'e.O. (.1
Crrr't Iike
c: - ". I i l..e
that.
it.'
Ahren:: I tf,ink it should aIl look the same.most the time but I think on this building itattract i ve a t,ui).in9.
I mean I
needs it.
hate conformi tyIt's not thet
Conr a i: \'e3h.
Krauss: tlell, I can convey those comments to the City Council. But inpriniiple, is this concept, whether or rtot you agree with the actual:igr,.!;e, ie the concept particular with the sign bands?
Emminge: Oh yeah. That's fine.
conra(l : l thinl: them having that middl.e sign band. They can put threenan.:- ouL there. I just don't feel , from what I see, that it'sa,estf,.titalli Lrhat I thought we were trying to encourage.
Krau:E: tlhy dcn't I try to encourage the City Council toc.oircrit, ar,C r-.i€'I) bring it back to you for f inal action.
ri:a1,.:' th: final decision on that.
accept the
That way you can
Enrrri ri:'.: l.l€ don't make f inal decisions.
YoJ
c)h
t:ould if the Council allows you to.
really? That's real power man.
Conrad: Jus: so you're communicating at least urhat I thought we urereto do is gir,,e them a 2 foot band jus! like the rest and it was going
lcorr ,,-"r i' oimil.r to the balance. I reaIIy didn't care if they had 3jn there or 2, f just Nas going to give them a band in the middle.
goi ng
to
names -
Emming:: And you urere pro color.
conrad: I made that speech but I don't
BatzI i : You're renigging now.
know thaL I made it.
Conracl: I don't know that I made it for that building.
developments. I think Tim made the speech for color andthe logo stuff.
I like
lo9o.
on other
1i ked
ir
He
Erhartr I do but that's, I mean you 've got some ofof it white. It doesn'! make any sense at aII.it color and then some
conrad: f guess' against the wood exterior, f just don't think that this is
an ef f ettir..e design. I like Lhe practicality. t^,hat tre're doing is letLerpeoplc, l.noir thaL they're there: ft's a quasi advertising deal but it's
more of e, in my mind it's more of just saying, hey they're here and
Plannj n? Cc,mmie:icn Meeti ngAprjl 3, 7e'i7 - F'a-ae 7.2
Planning
April :r,
Conrm j ssion l.leeti n9
7997 - Page 63
hel pi ns citizens
sign.
find where they're Iocated more than a glarirrg advertising
Batzli: 90 if they madeis that going to be okay?
all three of them the same as the outbound ones,
Conrad: T hen comfortable with that.I'm
theEmmings: And 2 foot band. tle don't have to go to 4 feet.
Krauss: I'Il convey that. Interestinglyjam in Phoenix las! week and I lookbd upon a sjngle story office service buildingexactly Iike that but it uas ulhite.
enough Iand I saw
and the
ura s
thesign,
stuck in a traffic
Amer ican Fami I y si.gnthe ]ogo looked
Emmings: Okay. Did you take a picture of that?
Krauss: No .
Batzli: But, would you allow whiteas the other signs? tjould you let
Krauss: I will try to convey your
Erhart: I stiII think they should
Conrad: Off of wher e?
Emmings: I didn't mean what I said.
with the
them put
c omme nts
take the
I ogotheir
to the
signs
if ir
I o9o
cir
off
was the same col or
uP there?
y Council.
the porticos.
T hosein the
Counci I butcould just
at this
couPl e
sent out
Erhart: Off the port.icos - To me that,s Nhat kills the building.porticos should have remained undecorated and the sisns ao"ia u"background. See to me that's the whole pountinance "f tti..
Krauss: I'II try to convey the sentiment I think I hear to theyou may L,ant to contact them individually. Theoretically theyapprove it this u,ay and that's the end of it. s"-iff-i-l"n"O"point is convey. . .thoughts and I'd be happy to do that. Lastthings- Brieflv. rhe surface warer utiiilv Ji=i.i.il' ul;J"requests for qualifications on about 17.firms.
Emmings: You also sent out bills and I got one.
Krauss: We've gone through a urhole billins cycle.complaints. Ne've had some questions and iome weresome acjjustments in the billing.
l.le 've had somevalid and ule've made
Krauss: oh, we didn't adjust yours. But-by and rarge the concern that, h,esent out 5,OOO bills and we maybe had 2O ieople call up about it so iturasn't a sreat number and r think we've been able to ;;=;r;; any issuesassociated uith that. Anyuray, by Friday afternoon ,. ;iII iave gotten backinitial proposals from consultant teams on doing in"-tti". pr,as"d study forus , the wetlands, the storm uater and r^rater quaiity. l.,hat r.le are proposing
{
Planni n-oApril 3,
Commission HeeL i ng
1991 - Page 64
to do at that pojnt is, I've talked to the l,tayor about this, is.uith an in-house committee is review those things, those 17 or however many ure get,
and ccre LE Lrjth a short list of maybe 5. Then ask those 5 firms toprepare detailed responses. Now I've -isked the Mayor to set up a taskforce, or to set up people to sit r.Jith us and interview the 5 because wedon't hant to make that decision. This is a long term relationship. t,ethink it Lrarrants having some Council representation and some Planning
Commission representation on tha! review committee. I'd also 1ik6 this
commjttee to work dn setting up a tesk force to wor k uith whoever we pick
over the nert probably, it's about a 2 yeay program to develop this stuff
because it means some changed ordinances. It affects properties. There's aIot of policy things. I honbstly don't specifically see it as a sole
P]anning Commission responsibility. I like the idea of having some council-representation. Some Planning Commission represenLation and some Lake
Associations. gome interested individuals urorking together on this so weget more of a cross section of people. Possibly a develoPer if that's
appropriate- But we'lI keep you tracking on this and I'II let you know
when this is coming ue. I'm asking the Council to think about this on
l,londay so they can give us some names to work with. The last thing we have-
is we have another request for ProPosals out on doing a comPrehensive seuer-
and water plan in the new HUSA area. hle've had some significant interest
raised on different pYoperties in the new HUSA area and the first quesLion
is always, where do you want us to hook uP to uater and seuer? tlhere
should the City trunk lines be and the answer is, we don't know. l^le've
only got vague ideas but never taid them out so t.re took some initiative and
we put out proposals to ge! some folks to uork with us and work uP that
plan. I'11 be taking tnit to the citv Council in a couPle ureeks. Hopefu]]v
L,e can get somebody on board and get that studv out by early summer so
people have better information to work with. But there is a lot of
interest out there. I think that does it for me.
Emmings: okay. Does anybody got anything else?
Batzli moved, Erhart seconded to adiourn the meeting.
and the motion carried. The meeting uas adjourned at
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Di r ector
All voted in favor
10:37 p.Er-.
Prepared by Nann opheim
SA}.,IUEL BOUTTN &
SLISAN SHANNON-BOUTIN
114 07 CREEIG,IDGE DR
EDEN PRAIRIE MN 55344
DONALD & K SCHI.OSSER
ROUTE 1 BOX ].2 5A
PEQUOT LAIGS MN 56472
JOSEPH & G XANDIKO
104 21 BLUFF CIRCLE
CHASKA MN 55318
NICHOte,s & !.{ WARITZ
127], BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
_ CHASKA MN 55318
_ROGER&BOSHAUGHNESSY
1OOO HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA MN 55318
- ANNE & CI"ARA VOGEL815 CREEKWOOD
CHASKA l'IN 55318
KIRK IIIACKENZIE
10420 BLUPF CRICLE
CHASKA MN 55318
I.EE & E ANDERSON
10441 BLUFF CIRCLE
CHASXA UN 55318
JAII{ES & C STRUBLE
12420 29TH AVE N
PLY]'IOUTH UN 55441
HESSE FARM IT HO ASSOCc/o PEGGY ROOS
10341 HETDI INNE
CHASXA MN 55318
JOHN & B FORCE
1OO1 HESSE FAR}I ROAD
CHASKA MN 55318
DALE & P GUNDERSON
845 CRXEKWOOD
CHASKA t{N 55318
ARI & S T'I'AD
5645 CHEROKEE TRAIL W
EDEN PRAIRIE I,IN 55344
JOSEPH & M EI,I.{GRTN
1221 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASKA MN 55318
HESSE FARM II HO ASSOCc/o GEoRGIA XANDTXo
10421 BLUFF CIRCLE
CHASKA I,TN 55318
PAUL & S ALI,EN
1OO2 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA UN 55318
J MTCHAEL SORENSON
7506 ERIE AVE
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
DUANE BICEK
12 31 BLUFF CREEX DRTVE
CHASKA MN 55318
EUGENE & },I JUNKER
1250 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA MN 55 318
PAUL & M I'{OIIINARI
110 ]. HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA MN 55318
JA}.TES & S HOUGH
1225 HESSE FARM CIR
CHASKA m'r 55318
GARY WEHRWETN
3252 I,AKE SHORE CIR
CHASKA MN 55318
WILLTAM & J I.{EYER
APT 73
3550 INDEPENDENCE AVE S
ST I,OUIS PARK I{N 55426
I,II CHAEL & L REMOND
10380 HEIDI IANE
CHASIG !,TN 55318
ROMAN & P ROOS
}0341 HEIDI I.ANE
CHASKA MN 55318
EILEEN N CARI,SON TRUSTEE
APT 115
11160 A}TDERSON I.K PKWY
EDEN PRATRIE UN 55344
ROGER & V BROUN
12 OO HESSE FARIIT RD
CHASXA UN 55318
CH.LRLES UOONEY
JENNIFER KTRKHAI4
1025 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA MN 55318
ROBERT & S PERRY
1181 HESSE FARI,I ROAD
CHASXA UN 55318
EDWARD MUELLER
12 51 HESSE FARM CIR
CHASKA MN 55318
NICHOIAS & F EVANOFF
1401 HESSE FARM ROAD
CHASKA }{N 55318
RICHARD & J NIEIT{I
10460 BLUFF CIRCLE
CIIASKA MN 55318
ROBERT & J STEFFES
1350 HESSEN FARtlr
CI{ASKA I,IN 55318
BRUCE B RECH
1180 HESSE FARM RD
CHASKA UN 55318
JAY PROVO
It2oG
4OO5 EI.IERALD STREET
TORRANCE cA 90503
PAUL & S HARMEL
].075 HESSE FAR},I ROAD
CHASKA IIIN 55318
LRICHARD&KDEE
12 01 HESSE FARI.I CIR
CHASKA MI.I 55318
DAVID t L GRANT
1679 CHATHAI{ AVE
ARDEN HILI,S MN 55318
HESSE TARI.{ HOMEOWNERS
ASSOCIATION
1425 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASXA MN 55318
F PATRICK & U
PRXNDERGAST
10350 HEIDI IANE
CHASKA UN 55318
HOWARD NOZISKA
1],2 O HESSE FARM RD
. _CHASKA MN 55318
FFEYNE & D JOHNSEN
11OO HESSE FAR}.{ ROAD
CHASXA IIIN, 55318
JERRY & I{ CRONABLE
10320 HEIDT I,ANE
CHASKA !,TN 55318
I,TIRK J BRIOL T
VIRGINIA DAVID-BRIOL
10377 HEIDI INNE
CHASKA UN 5531L
RICHARD & U BUE
10361 HEIDI IANE
CHASIG t{N 55318
CURTIS & C BARDAL
10301 HEIDI I,ANE
CHASKA UN 55318
DANIEL & K SMITH
102 O HESSE FARM RD
CHASKA MN 55318
DAVID }IALI,A
10095 GREAT PLAINS BLVD
CHASKA MN 55318
DAVID TEICH
10151 GREAT PI,AINS BLVD
CHASKA MN 55318
!{ICHAEL LYNCH ET
I,AVERNE LYNCH
92.5 CREEKWOOD
CHAS KA !.TN 55318
AL
HAROLD HESSE
1425 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASIG MN 55319
HELEN SADEN ET AL
- c/o ALFRED HESSE
51OO CREEKWOOD ROAD
CHASXA MN 55318
PATRI CK BI'OD
NANCY LESS
718 3RD AVE W_ SHAKOPEE MN 55379
_ RUSSELL & Y BARTO
4OO I,AKOTA IANE
CHASKA MN 55318
PAUL & D GRAFFTJNDER
1OOOI GREAT PI,AINS BLVD
CHASKA UN 55318
RODNEY & D BEUCH
1180 PIONEER ?R.AIL
CHASKA UN 55318
JOHN SKRABA JR
1530 BLUFF CREEK
CHASI(A I'TN 55318
CHANHASSEN SPRINGS CO
C/O ELLIOT FEINBERG
4725 EXCEISIOR BLVD
MINNEAPOLIS I.'N 55415
DIANE GILBERTSON
1190 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASXA MN 55318
CHESTER & B TEICH
825 FLYING CI'UD DRIVE
CHASKA MN 55318
WALTER & J GRIEPENTROG
1OO TLYING CIPUD DRIVE
CHASKA l{N 55318
UAYNARD & I.T HAPPE
495 IAKOTA I,ANE
CHASKA UN 55318
JEFFREY & K DYPWICK
1O3OO GREAT PI,AINS BLVD
CHASKA UN 55318
DAVI D & C JOHNSON
8 2 1 CREEKI{OOD
CHASKA UN 55318
TET'NIS & J DEJOODE
810 PIONEER TRAIL
CHANHASSEN UN 55.31?
CIARLES & P WEBBER
1?240 VALLEY ROAD
EDEN PRAIRIE UN 55347
MN"TORIE NEISON BUSH
ANNE KAREI,S
1151 BLUFF CREEK DRTVE
cHASt(A MN 55318
JOSEPH NOTER}.{ANN
1205 WEST 6TH AVE
SHAKOPEE UN 55379
THOMAS & B ZWTERS
11111 DEUCE ROAD
ELKO UN 55020
VERNE & S SEVERSON
575 LAXOTA I,AI,IE
CHASKA MN 55318
BLUTT CREEX GOLF ASSOC
1905 CONCORDTA ST
WAYZATA UN 55391
BERT. & B NOTERII,A}{N
812 E CO RD 78
SHAKOPEE I{N 55379
PAUL & A SYI'{ANITZ
1505 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
- CHASKA MN 55318
- DONALD HALI,A
1OOOO GREAT PIAINS BLVD
CHASKA MN 55318
JAMES & S PEDERSEN
10300 T.TANDAN CTRCLE
CHASKA UN 55318
JOHN MALZAHN
10551 GREAT PI,ATNS BLVD
- cHASt(A }{N 55318
DAN & V ?ESTER
2 3 O FLYING CI.OUD DRIVE
CHASXA UN 55318
ALVIN LEBENS
460 FLYING CIOUD DRIVE
CHASXA MN 55318
BRUCE & T PAUL
1024 O MANAN CIRCLE
CHASXA MN 55318
SUPERAMERTCA GROUP INC
PO BOX 14 000
LEXINGTON KY 4O5L2
JAS & R PEDERSON
1O3OO MANDAN CIRCLE
CHASKA UN 55318
HARRY NTE},IEI,A
2901 WASHTA BAY ROAD
EXCELSIOR MN 55331
ROBERT FTNLEY
DEBRA WENDORF-FINLEY
740 VOGELSBERG TR
CHASKA MN 55318
DEVAL & DATTA },TEDH
535 I,AKOTA I,ANE
CHASKA MN 55318
ROBERT & P BURESH
5817 HANSEN ROAD
EDINA MN 55436
PAUL TAUNTON
#310
10125 cRossTowN cIR
EDEN PRAIRIE }{N 55344
LEONARD & C TAKKUNEN
12 91 BLUFT CREEK DRrVE
CHASKA Ir{N 55318
tEON C UESENBRINK
250 FLYING CIPUD DRTVE
CHASXA UN 55318
W}{ & R BROl.rN
10220 UANDAN CIRCLE
CHASKA UN 55318.
RTCHARD T HALVER
10271 GREAT PININS BLVD
CHASXA UN 55318
JAI,IES & J DTNGEL
DEPT 34
PO BOX 9300
UINNEAPOLIS UN 55440
STEINER & XOPPELMANN
JOHN & J PHILLIPS ET AL110952 VON HERTZEN CT
CHASKA UN 55318
I,AVERNE & E WHEELER
445 I.AXOTA IANE
CHASKA UN 55318
GEORGE NEISON & ASSOC
SUITE 428
1550 SO HWY 100
MINNE,APOLIS }rN 55415
!.!ARY WARITZ
1271 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASI(A litN 55318
TERRENCE BEAUCHANE
PO BOX 23
CHANHASSEN UN 55317
JAITIES & J SABINSKE
774 4TH STR.EET
CHASKA UN 55318
GUYRTIiIUI'NDALE
450 I.tANDAI{ CIRCLE
CHASKA UN 55318
RICHARD SCHUELKE
GINNY LIND
10251 GREAT PI,AINS
CHASKA UN 55318
BLVI)
JN,TES & C SULERUD
730 VOGEI,SBERG TR
CHASKA MN 55318
NORIUAN & K I,IONROE565 INKOTA IANE
PO BOX 115
CHASKA UN 55318
KEVTN BUESGENS
PO BOX 910
CHASI(A UN 55318
RICHARD UAIONEY
1315 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE
CHASKA !,tN 55318
GARY & D ANDERSON
725 CREEXWOOD
CHASKA UN 55318
GERALD & S BERTSCH8556 IRWft{ RoAD
BTToMTNGTON MN 5s437
TI}.{OTHY I{ISE
425 IAXOTA IANE
CHASIG MN 55318
DENNIS & L SUITH
1251 BLUFF CREEK DRIVE -CHASKA MN 55318
CH[NH[SSEN
MEMORANDI]M
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SULT:
Planning Cornrnission
Kathy Aanenson, Planner If
August 14, 1991
Landscaping ordinance
This itern was
neeting.
tablcd at the JuIy 17, 1991, Planning Corurission
on June 5, 1991 the Planning Conxrission held a pubtic hearing toanend the sections of the Zoning and Subdivision ordinanceregarding Landscaping and Tree Preservation Requirenents. zursuantto this hearing, staff has addressed the conments and proposedchanges. The recommended changes to the ordinance have been madeand are shown in the attached ordi.nance. Additions are shown inbold and deletions are shown with tines through it.
In summary the najor changes include:
spacing of trees along open area of a site located adj acentto public right-of-way is now 3O feet instead of 40 fiet.
The type of Daterial acceptable for screen fences for outdoorstorage areas, has been changed to exclude wood.
Diseased or damaged trees shaLl be renoved only if they cannotbe saved.
1
4 In the Subdivision Ordinance, 3 trees will be required witheach building lot, 2 deciduous and t evergreen. TheCommission stated a preference for having developers choosefrom two lists of trees. One list would be for deciduoustrees and one for evergreen trees. Because the City iscurrently working with the DNR to do a tree study and will bereceiving species reconmendations froro the study. Staff rirould
reconmend defer listing any specific species at this tineuntil . the study is conpleted. In addition, the changeallowing the City to waive up to thro (2) of the required tretswas made to this sarne section.
ODt,PRINTED ON REC\CLED PAPER
CITY OF
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
3
A few other issues were raised during the hearing for Staff tofollow up on. These issues included:
1. Staff was asked to talk to the City Attorneycity's ability to reguLate the powei conpany-r sclear cut on utility easenents.
The city Attorney has stated the City has the ability to passan ordinance regulating the power conpanyrs ability to cornt inand cl.ear cut even in an easement area.
A question hras raised regarding thecomprehensive PIan, buffer requirenents
ordinance.
Planning Cornmission
August 14, 1991
Page 2
2
GOAL:
POLICY:
regarding theauthority to
relat ionand the
of the
proposed
In the Land Use Elenent of the GoaLs and policies Section ofthe Conprehensive Plan the following goals and policies state:
Achieve a mixture of developnent which lrill assure ahigh quality of life and reliable tax base.
The City wiII seek opportunities to provide transition
between uses of different t)rpes, the more inconpatiblethe neighboring uses, the more inportant the transitionzone. For exa!0p1e, natural features nay provide goodtransitions between inconpatible uses or uses of
moderate intensity and can provide transitions betweenhigh intensity and low intensity uses. The Land Use PIanalso seeks the establishnent of buffer yards rrhereappropriate. These buffer yards represent areas of
increased setbacks lrhere a developer will be required toinstall landscaping and berning to offer iroprovedseparation of inconpatible uses.
3 There was some discussion as to the width of streets and theireffect the rridth has on the ability to get a canopy fron thestreetscape.
Staff also noted that paveroent width required by suburban
conmunities varies uidely and Chanhassen I s requirenents appearto be at the high end of the range. Street width has a direct
and often adverse inpact on environmental protection. If thePlanning Commission wishes to have this Datter investigatedfurther, rre would reconmend you ask the City Engineer toinvestigate the matter and repor+- back to you.
Planning Commission
August L4, L991
Page 3
RECOMMENDATI ON
staff recommends the
motion:
Planning Cornrnission adopt the following
ItThe Planning Conmission reconnends approval of the landscape
ordinance as shown in Attachnent #1.tr
ATTACHIUENTS
1. Proposed Landscape Ordinance.
.ARVER *, "r'r*r".r:"1."mf#, r,rrNNESorA
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE AI'{ENDING CHAPTER t8 AND CHAPTER 20 OF THE
CIIANHASSEN CITY CODE, THE SUBDIVISION AND ZONING ORDINANCE
The City Council of the City of Chanhassen ordains:
Article XXV, Landscaping and Tree Renoval .
DIVISION 1. GENERALLY
section 2O-LL76. Intent, scope and conpliairce.
(a) The intent of this article is to inprove the appearanceof vehicular use areas and property abutting public rights:of-way;to require buffering bethreen non-cornpatible land uies; and toprotect, preserve and prornote the aesthetic appeal, character andvalue of the surrounding neighborhoods; to pronote public healthand safety through the reduction of noise polJ.ution, air pollution,visual pollution and g1are.
(b) This article does not apply to single fanily detachedresidences in the Al/ A2 /RIR/RSF Districts whiCh are regulated bylandscaping requirenents contained rrith the Subdivision Ordinance.
(c) No nel, site developnent, building, structure or vehicularuse area is allowed, unless landscaping is provided as required inthis article.
(d) No property lines shall be altered norbuilding, structure or vehicular use area be expanded,
minimum landscaping reguired by the provisions of thisprovided for the entire property.
(e) The landscaping standards shall provide for screening forvisual irnpacts associated with a given use, including but notlimited to:
" truck loading areas io trash storage,.o parking 1ots, interior lot areas and perineters;o large unadorned building massing;o garage doors associated with auto orj.ented usesi and
" vehicular stacking areas for drive through uses
- .(f ) Buffering sha1I be provided between high intensity1ow intensity uses and between a site and major streetshighways ?nd in areas rrhere buffering is required byCornprehensive Pl-an.
shal1 any
unless thearticle is
and
and
the
1
(S) Boulevard and streetscape planting sha11 be pursued bythe city.
(h) llature stands of trees sha1I be preserved.
(i) Reforestation shall be pursued as appropriate.
Section 20-1177. Plan Submission and approval.
The property olrner or developer shall prepare a landscape plan
dralrn by a registered landscape architect or other professional
acceptable to the city for review by the city. The city sha11
apply the following conditions in approval or disapproving the
plan:
(1) The contents of the plan sha1l include the following:
a Plot plan, drawn to an easily readable scale,
sholring and Labelling by nane and dimensions, allexisting and proposed property lines, easements,buildings, and other structures, vehicular use
areas (including parking stalls, driveways, serviceareas, square footage), water outlets and landscapenaterial (including botanical narne and common name,installation size, on center planting dinensionswhere applicable, and quantities for all plants
used ) .
b Typical elevations and/or cross sections as nay berequired.
Title block with the pertinent nanes and addressed(property owner, person drawing plan, and personinstalling landscape material), scale date, northarrow (generally orient plan so that north is totop of plan), and zoning district.
d Existing landscape naterial shaLlrequired plan and any materiaLcondition nay be used to satisfy
whole or in part.
be shown on thein satisfactorythis article in
(2) Where landscaping is required, no building pennit shallbe j.ssued until the required landscaping plan has beensubnitted and approved, and no certificate of occupancy shallbe issued until the landscaping is conpleted as certified byan on-site inspection by the building inspector, unless anirrevocable letter of credit frorn a banking institution, hasbeen submitted.
(3) when screening, landscaping or other similar inprovenentsto property are required by this ordinance, a letter of credit
shal1 be supplied by the orner in an anount equal to at Leastone hundred ten (110) percent of the value of such screening,landscaping or other improvenents. The security nust 6esatisfactory to the city and shalt be conditibned uponreirnbursement of all expenses inburred by the city iorengineering, J.egal or other fees in connection with naking orconpleting such iruproveDents. The g"uarantee shall be providedprior to the issuance of any building pernit and ihatl bevalid for a period of tine egual to one (1) full growing
season after the date of installation of the landscaping. fhecity nay accept a letter of credit or cash escrorr. in theevent construction of the project is not cornpleted within thetine prescribed by building perDits and other approvals, thecity nay, at its option, complete the r^rork required ai theexpense of the owner and the surety.
The city may allow an extended period of tine forcompletion of all landscaping if the delay is due toconditions which are reasonably beyond the control of thedeveloper. Extensions uhich nay not exceed nine (9) nonths,nay be granted due to seasonal or rreather conditions. When anextension is granted, the city sha11 require such additionalsecurity as it deems appropriate.
-(4). Requests for use of alternative landscaping provisionsare justified only rrhen one or Dore of the foltowing Londitionsapply:
a
b
The site involves
shaped parcels.space lirnitations or unusually
Topography, soiI, vegetation,conditions are such that fullinpossible or irnpraeticable.
or other sitecompliance is
Due to a change of use ofrequired buffer yard isprovided, and
an existing site, thelarger than can be
d. Safety considerations are involved.
3
c.
DIVTSTON 2. TREE RE}{OVAL REGUI,ATIONS.
Section 2O-7L7A. ceneraLly.
(a) It is the policy of the city to preserve natural woodlandareas throughout the city and with respect to specific sitedevelopment to retain as far as practical, substantiat tree standswhich can be incorporated into the overail landscape plan.
(b) No clearcutting of woodland areas shall be pernitted
except as approved in a subdivision, planned unit development orsite plan application
(c) The following standards shall be used in evaluating
subdivisions and site plans:
(1) To the extent practical, site design shall preservesignificant noodland areas.
(2) Shade trees of six (5) inches or more caliper atfour (4) feet in height shall be saved unless it
can be denonstrated that there is no other feasible
way to develop the site.
(3) The city nay require the replacenent of removedtrees on a caliper inch per caliper inch basis. At
minirnum, however, repLacement trees shall conformto the planting requirement identified in Division
3 of this article.
(4) During the tree renoval process, trees shall be
renoved so as to prevent blocking of public rights-of-lray or interfering with overhead utility lines.
(5) The rernoval of diseased and danaged trees ispernissible ouly if they caDDot be aavad.
(d) Tree removal not pernitted under subdivision, plannedunit development or site plan review sha1l not be allorred withoutthe approval of a tree renoval plan by the city council . Tree
removal plans sha1l include the content requirernents as dictated inSection 2O-L177 and identify reasons for tree removal The plan
shaLl be submitted three (3) weeks in advance of the city councilneeting at which it is to be considered.
DIVISION 3. I,ANDSCAPING STANDARDS
Section 2O-LL79. Landscape Budget.
(a) There sha1l be provided landscaping neeting the ninimumIandscaping budget provided in the table belolr.
PROJE T VALUE UINIU[,!,I INNDSCAPE
VALUE(Including building constructS.on,site preparation, and site inprovements)
Below $1,000, O0O 2*
4
PROJECT VALUE
$1,000,001 - 92,000, ooo
$2,000,001 - $3,000,000
93,000,001 - $4,ooo,ooo
Over $4,000,000
Tree preservation is encouraged andvegetation on the site.
I,IINIMI,'I,T I,ANDSCAPE
VALUE
$20,000 + 18 of
Proj ect Value inexcess of
$1, 000 r 0oo
s3O,O00 + 0.758of Project
Value in excessof $2,0o0,000
$37,500 + 0.258of Pro j ect
Value in excessof $3.7€eHee
s2 r 000,0 0 0
1t
may be applied to existing
Section 20-1180. visual Inpacts.
(a) Any visual impact, inctuding but not linited to, truckloading areas, trash storage, parking lots, interior lot areas andperimeters, large unadorned building massing, garage doorsassociated with auto oriented uses and vehicular staeking areas fordrive-thru uses shall be screened or buffered thenever located inany residential , cornrnercial or industrial zone except single farnityresidences in the A1, A2, RR and RSF districts. Structuies nay bagrouped together, however, screening height requirements will bebased upon the tallest of the structures.
1) Required screening or buffering for any visual impact naybe achieved with fences, walls, earth benns, hedges oiother landscape materials. A11 walIs and fences shallbe architecturally harnonious lrith the principal.building. Earth berms shall not exceed a slop; of Slf.The screen shaIl be designed to enpl.oy naterials whichprovide an effective visual barrier during all seasons.
2)A11 required screening or buffering shaU be located onthe lot occupied by the use, building, facility orstructure to be screened. No screening or bufferingsha1l be located on any public right-of-way or withineight (8) feet of the traveled portlon of an1' street gr
highway.
5
3)Screening or buffering required by this section shalI beof a height needed to accomplish the goafs of. thissection. Height of plantings reguired under this section
shall- be measured at the tirne of installation.
(b) The following uses shall be screened or buffered in
accordance with the requirements of this subdivision:
1) Principal buildings and structures and any buildingor structure accessory thereto Located in any
business, industrial or planned unit developmentdistrict containing non-residential uses shall bebuffered fron lots used for any residentiaL
purpose.
2)Principal buildings and structures and any buildingor structure accessory thereto located in any R4,
R8, R12, R16 District or planned unit developnentdistrict containing residential development atdensities exceeding 4 units per acre shall be
buffered fron lots Located in any A1, A2, RR or RsFDistrict .
3)Additional buffer yard requirements are establishedby the city Comprehensive PIan and listed inindividual district standards.
4)outside storage in any district subject to theseprovisions and allowed by other provisions of this
ordinance, shal1 be screened frorn all public views.
Section 20-1181. vehicular Areas.
(a) Parking Iot periureters where vehicular areas, including
driveways and drive aisles, are not entirely screened visually by
an intervening building or structure fron any abutting right-of-
\./ay, there sha1l be provided landscaping designed to buffer direct
views of cars and hard surface areas. The goal of this section isto break up expanses of hard surface areas, help to visually define
boulevards and soften direct viens of parking areas.
(b) Interior Landscaping for Vehicular Use Areas:
L) Any open vehicular use are (excluding }oading,unloading, and storage areas in IOP and BGDistricts) containing Dore than six thousand
(5,000) square feet of area, or twenty (20) or morevehicular parking spaces, shall provide interior
landscaping in accordance with this division' inaddition to riperimeterrr landscaping. Interior
landscaping nay be peninsular or island t)pes.
6
2)
3)
4)
s)
6)
For each one hundred (100) square feet, or fractionthereof, of vehicular use area, five (5) squarefeet of landscaped area sha11 be provided.
The nj.nimura Landscape area pernitted sha1lsixty-four (64) square feet, with a fourrninimum dirnension to all trees fron edgepavenent where vehicles overhang.
befoot
of
In order to encourage the required landscape areasto be properly di,spersed, no required landscapearea shal1 be.larger than three hundred fifty (350)square feet in vehicular use areas unaer ttiirtythousand (30,000) square feet. In both cases, theLeast dirnension of any required area shall be four-foot nininurn dimension to all trees frorn edge ofpavement where vehicles overhang. Landscape areaslarger than above are permitted as long as theadditional areas are in excess of the requirednininum.
A rninimum of one (1) tree shall be required foreach two hundred fifty (250) square feet orfraction thereof, of required lindscape area.Trees shall have a clear trunk of at least five (5)feet above the ground, and the remaining area sha1ibe landscaped with shrubs, or ground cover (aot toincluale -ro.c_ks or gravel ) , not to exceed two ( Z )feet in height.
Parked vehicles nay hang over the interiorlandscape area no more than two and one-ha1f (21)feet, as long as a concrete curb is provided toensure no greater overhang or penetration of thelandscaped area.
7) A1I Landscaped areas sha1l be protected by concretecurbing.
Section 2O-f1.82. Foundation and Aesthetic pLantings.
- (ut Landscaping plans shaI1 provide for an appropriate nix ofplantings around the .exterior fo-otprint of arr.'6uliaings. Theintent of this section is to inirove the appearanc; of thestructures and, where necessary, break up targe driaaorned buildingerevations. These plantings a-re not in€ended to obscure views ofEne bul-J-alrng or accessory signage.
(b) AII undeveloped areas of the site, excluding protectedy"t119:.and tree preservation areas, shall be seeded oi sodded.rn addition, an appropriate mix of trees and other lrininiieriarsha1l be provided to create an aesthetically plea-$S-;itEl-
7
(c) Where undeveloped or open areas of a site are 1ocatedadjacent to public right-of-way, the plan shal1 provide foroverstory boulevard trees. A nininum of ene (1) tree for everyffi--f+e} thirty (30) feet of frontage is required. The City nayapprove alternatives if it neets the intent of the ordinance.
Section 20-1183. Landscaping ![aterials.
(a) The landscaping naterials shall consist of the following:
(1) wa1ls and fences. wa11s sha1l be constructed ofnatural stone, brick or other ar+i+ie-i-a}appropriate materials. treDces sball be constructedof vooA. Chain Link fencing will be permitted onlyif covered with plant material or other$/isescreened (refer to Section 20-1180 [1]).
(2) Earth berms. Earth berms sha1l be physicalbarriers which block or screen the view sinilar toa hedge, fence, or wall. Uounds shall be
constructed with proper and adequate plant materialto prevent erosion. A difference in elevationbetrreen areas requiring screening does notconstitute an existing earth mound, and sha1]. notbe considered as fulfilling any screening
requirement.
(3) Plants. All plant materials shal1 be livingplantsi artificial plants are prohibited. Plantnaterials shall neet the following requirements:
a) Deciduous trees. Sha11 be species having anaverage mature crown spread of greater thanfifteen (15) feet and having trunk(s) which
can be maintained with over five (5) feet ofclear uood in areas which have visibilityreguirements, except at vehicular use areaintersections where an eight (8) foot clear
wood requirenent will control. Trees havingan average nature spread of crown less thanfifteen (15) feet may be substituted bygrouping of the same so as to create theequivalent of a fifteen (15) foot crownspread. A nrininun of ten (10) feet overallheight or minimum caliper (trunk diameter,
measured six (5) inches above ground for trees
up to four (4) inches caliper) of at least tr,roand one-ha1t (2\') inches imrnediately afterplanting sha1l be required. Trees of speciesrrhose roots are. known to cause damage topublic roadways or other public works shallnot be placed closer than fifteen (15) to such
6
pubfic lrorks, unless the tree root systen isconpletely contained within a barrier forwhich the minimum interior containing
dimensions sha1l be five (5) feet square andfive (5) feet deep and for which theconstruction requireroents shall be four (4)
inches thick, reinforced concrete.
Everqreen trees. Evergreen trees shall be a
miniroun of six (6) feet high with a mininumcaliper of one and one-half (11) inches whenplanted.
Shrubs and hedges. Deciduous shrubs sha11 beat least trro (2) feet in average height whenplanted, and shall conform to the opacity andother requirements within four (4) years afterplanting. Evergreen shrubs shalL be at leasttero (2) feet in average height and two (z)feet in diameter.
Vines. Vines shaIl be at least twelve (12)inches high at planting, and are generally
used in conjunction with wa11s or fences.
crass or ground cover. Grass sha11 be plantedin species normally grotn as pernanent Iawns,and nay be sodded, pluqged, sprigged, orseeded,' except in swales or other areas
subj ect to erosion, where solid sod, erosionreducing net, or suitable nulch sha1l be used,nurse-grass seed shall be sown for irnmediateprotection until conplete coverage otherwiseis achieved. crass sod sha1l bL clean andfree of weeds and noxious pests or diseases.
Ground cover such as organic material sha1I beplanted in such a lnanner as to present afinished appearance and seventy-iive (25)percent of coJ0plete coverage after two (2)conplete grorring seasons, with a naximum oififteen (15) inches on center. In certaincases, ground cover also uay consist of rocks,pebbles, sand and similar approved roaterials.
Retaining walls exceeding five (5) feet inheight, including stige waLls rrhichcuroulatively exceed five (5) feet in height,must be constructed in accordance with pl-ansprepared by a registered engineer or landscapearchitect of brick, concreti or Datural stoue.Artificial naterial nay be approved tfaPProPrLate.
b)
c)
e)
f)
9
d)
DIVISION 4. MAINTENANCE AND INSTALI,ATION.
section 20-1184. cenerally.
The owner, tenant, and their respective agents shall be heldjointly and severally responsible to naintain their property and
landscaping in a cbndition presenting a healthy, neat and orderly
appearance a..d free frorn refuse and debris. Plants and ground
cover which are reguired by an approved site or landscape plan andrrlhich have died shall be replaced within three (3) months ofnotifications by the city. However, the tine for conpliance may be
extended up to nine (9) Donths by the director of planning in orderto allow for seasonal or rreather conditions.
SUBDTVISION ORDTNANCE
Section 18-51. Landscaping and Tree Preservation Requirements.
(a) Required Landscaping/Residential Subdivisions
L) Eacr- lot shall be provided with a mininun of three(3) trees, tro (2, trees shall be deciduoua atrd oDe(1) a conlferous tree (tbe clty yiII provide . 1istof epecies). Coniferous trees nust be at least 6feet high and deciduous trees nust be at least 2L
i.nches in dianeter at the tine of installation. Atleast one (1) decr.duous tree nust be placed in thefront yard area. Trees must be installed prior toreceiving a certificate of occupancy or financial
guarantees acceptable to the city nust be providedto ensure tinely installation. This requirenent
rnay be vaived lor up to tro (2) of the requiredtrees by the city when the applicant can
demonstrate that suitable trees having a mininun
diameter of 6 inches and 4 feet above the groundare located in appropriate locations on the lot.
The waiver shalL be applied for each existing tree
against each required tree on a one-for-one basis.
(2) All areas disturbed by site grading and/orconstruction nust be seeded or sodded irnrnediately
upon cornFletion of work to nininize erosion. whencertificates of occupancy are requested prior tothe satisfaction of this requirenent, financiaLgararantees acceptable to the city, must be
provided.
(3) No dead trees or uprooted aturnps shall remain after
deveLopnent. On-site burial is not pernitted.
(4) Landscaped buffers around the exterior of thesubdivision shall be required by the city when the
t0
plat is contiguous with collector or arterialstreets as defined by the Conprehensive plan andnhere the plat is adjacent to more intensive landuses. Required buffering shal1 consist of bernsand landscape naterial consisting of a mix of treesand shrubs and/or tree preservation areas. Whereappropriate, the city nay require additionaL lotdepth and area on lots containing the buffer sothat it can be adequately acconnodated and thehones protected fron inpacts. Lot depths and areasmay be increased by 25t over zoning districtstandards. The landscape plan must be developedwith the prelininary and final plat subrnittals iorcity approval . Appropriate financial guaranteesacceptable to the city shatl be required.
b) It is the policy of the city to preserve natural woodlandareas throughout the city and with respect to specific sitedevelopnent to retain as far as practical, substantial tree standswhich can be i,ncorporated into the overalL Landscape plan.
c) No clearcutting of woodland areas shall be pernittedexcept as approved in a subdivision, planned unit deveLopment orsite plan application.
d) The following standards shall be used in evaluatingsubdivisions and site pl.ans:
1) To the.extent practical, site design shall preservesignificant woodland areas.
Shade trees of six (6) inehes or more catiper atfour (4) feet in height shall be saved unl;ss itcan be denonstrated that there is no other feasibleway to develop the site.
The city nay require the replacenent of renovedtrees on a caliper inch per caLiper inch basis. Atnininum, however, repla-enent trees shall confornto the planting reguirement identified in Division3 of this article.
4) During the tree renoval process, trees shal1 betrirnned or renoved so as to prevent blociing ofpubli9 r_ights-of-way or interfiring with overheadutility I ines.
5) The renoval of diseased and damaged trees, tr€ssthat carDot b6 aaved, is pernissible.
e) Tree renovar not permitted under subdivision, pranned unitdevelopment or site plan levielr shalr not be allowed 'riiiit"t trr"
11
3)
2)
approval of a tree removal plan by the city council . Tree removalplans shalL include the content requirements as dictated in Section
20-1]-77 and identify reasons for tree removal The plan shal1 besubmitted three (3) weeks in advance of the city council neeting atwhich it is to be considered.
REEERENCE SECTION 2O-118t, ceDerally.
RXPEAL SECTION 20-].17, l,[aintenance of site and ].andscaping aNO
SECTION 20-1l-9, Landscaping financial guarantee required.
L2
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COI,IIIISsION
REGULAR HEETING
AUGUST 7, L99I
Chairrran Ernmi ngs called the meeling to order at
MEI"IBERS PRESENT :
Jeff Farma kes and
Tim Erhart, Ladd
Joan Ahrens
Conrad, Steve
7:30 p"m. "
Emmi ngs , Br ian Batz I i ,
T,IEMBERS ABSENT: AnneTLe E}]son
STAFF PRESENT:PauI Krauss, Planni ng Director ; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior
KaLhy Aanenson, P.Lanner II; andPlannerl Sharmin A1-Jaff, Planner I;
Char 1es Folch, City E.ngineer
PUBLIC HEARING:
LUNDGREN BROS,/ORTENBLAT,/ERSBO PROPERTY ZONED RR. RURAL RESIDENTTAL AND RSF.
RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY LOCATED EAST OF POI^IERS BOULEVARD AND SOUTH OF
LAKE LUCY ROAD:
A- PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 30+ ACRES TO CREATE 37 SINGLE FAHILY
LOTS .
B - I.IETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO A LT FR /F TI I CI ASS R UFTI ANDS
PubIic Pr esent :
Na me Addr ess
Terry ForbordRick Sathre
Frank Svoboda
Peter PfIaum
Bob PetersonBrian Tichy
Jim & Claudette Schluck
Scott Rei nertson
tlendell G. Gravlun
Jeff 0'NeilBiII & Julie Infanger
Joe Morin
Jim Ravi6
Lundgren Bros.
15311 Knob HilI Curve, Hinnetonka
227 52 CounLy Road 7, Hutchinson
18o7O Breezy Po j. nt Road , t^,layzata
5650 Powers BIvd -
747\ lake Lucy Road
6800 Utica Terrace
6801 Utica Terrace
5270 BIue Jay Circle
5511 Devonshire Dr ive
6740 PoHers BIvd.
1441 Lake Lucy Road
6660 Powers BIvd.
Jo Ann 0Isen presented the staff rePort on this item. Chairman Emmings
calIed the public hearing to order -
Terry Forbord: Mr. Chair, because the staff did such a good job in their
sLaff report and Lhe detail is very complete, if it would be okay with you,
I guess I'd reserve my comments until later on because I only have, for the
most part I think we are in toLaL agreemenL. There are a few items that I
would like Lo present to you but if it would be okay with the Chair I would
do that later on in Lhe meeting. That would be up Lo you.
Emmings: I guess if you have reaction to conditions Lhat
approval , I'd like to hear those now so that oLher people
they'd
in Lhe
impose on
aud i e nce
Planni ng
August 7
Commission Meeti ng
1997 - Page 2
can con'rrnenL on thenl too if they Hant t.o.
Terry Forbord: My name is Terry Forbord wiLh Lundgren Bros.,935 EasL
t^Jayzata Blvd.. I know you're familiar with Lhis proposal because tJe rlere.
before you not too long ago in an informal capacity to share with you the
real nuts and bolLs and dynamics of this proPosa] . As I iust stated, the
staff report on this, I'm sure you've taken the time to read it is quite
detailed. This is actually been somewhaL of an exciting endeavor for us
because in our line of work, as well as an engineering and Planning,
municipal planning and engineering, things are changing really fast
relative to the envj.ronment. Thinks like water quality. Auality of life
and for us to mainLain our presence in the real estate develoPment industry
as a leader, we need to be cognizant and be on the cutting edge of some of
the newer things that are being developed to be sensitive to those
environmental. concerns. And it's been refreshing for us working with city
staff because they, we all seem Lo be in agreemenL. Our objectives seem to
be very much in step with one anoLher. I think it's been a learning curve
for aII of us. Rick, maybe you could put up that first exhibit. As you
reca]I there was some discuss.ion of why this proposal should be looked a!
as a planned unit development or PUD. I appeared before you prior to this
proposal Lalking about planned unit developments. I think we've been forLh
righL and you've been forLh right wiLh us and ue've shared a lot of
information about it- Our objectives I beLieve uith this proposal are the
same as the City's are. tJe believe we're a qual.ity developer. The City's
looking for quality developers to come into their communiLy. This is aquality neighborhood community. This proposal wiIl e.Iinrinate the
undesireable Ersbo plal which some of you may be familiar with. You hrere
involved with. rf you would like me Lo elaborate on any of these items,please slop me in case someone doesn't recalI something lhat I'm speaking
of from the pasL. l,J e are going to improve Lhe pre-treatmenL of storm
water - [^Je are going to improve and enhance conditions of existing wet]ands
and we are going to creaLe addiLional Hetlands that are of a hi.gher quality
tharr the wetlands that currently exist on Lhe site and there will be a netgain of t^reLland area. There wiII be further protecLion of wetlands with anestablished preservation zone. Now we probably need to decide what we'regoing to caLl these areas. t^lhether Lhey're going to be buffer sLrips orconservation zones or preservation zones and that's something that r.riII be
wor ked out in the final plaLting process. The reason we decided to opt fora preservation zone, because hJe urant to make sure that the home buyers intheir mind's eye, when they're buying something from Lundgren Bros,, thatthey realize that this needs Lo be preserved and we're going to depict Lha!in our marketing materials. [^le're going to take a hard Iook at Lhe hray wepresent Lhat Lo people who come and buy homes r.rithin our community. tJe
u,ant Lo make sure they understand what this is aII about and what we'retrying to do and what the City's trying to do. Those preservation zonesurill inc.Iude easements and they will also include deed restrictions on eachIot to mainlain compliance with the preservation objectives. t^lith a PUD
Lhere wiII be more Iandscaping than a stailard subdivision requiremeht
r^rou]d aIlow. There wiII be a greaLer deg;ee of sensitivity for theproLection of significant trees and vegetation with an esLablishedpreservation zone and easement similar to the one Lhat's around thewet.Iands. In other urords there wiII be deed restrictions protecting
certain areas of trees so homeowners cannot come in and cut down thoseareas of trees because they will not be allowed to do so. As already
Planning
AugusL 7
Commission HeeL i ng
7997 - Page 3
mentioned by Jo Ann, Lhere wiIl be increased architectural standards - she
talked about architecLural elements Iike uood and brick. I think it also
should be noted tha! every year Lundgren Bros. travels the United States
and gains data and comes back and uPdates their entire Product Iine of
housing. t^Je do tha! in every subdivision Lhat we do- tle do it so we're
always hopefully on the cutting edge of what iL is Lhat homebuyers rdant and
delivering !o them Lhe lhings that Lhey would find most approPriate for
that present Lime. There wiII be a transitional area of housing. This is
not inexpensive housing. t^,e are talking about housing thaL ranges anvwhere
from $17o to $27o. Somewhere in that area. That is not inexPensive
housing. A! the same lime it's not very exPensive housing. It cerlainIy
falIs within the realm of the housing that is needed within the CiLv of
Chanhassen. As mentioned bv the slaff, one of the purPoses of the PUD
that's ouLlined very explicitedly in Code is urhy do you have PUD's? t^Jhy
would one do iL? tlelI in this parlicular case we're not doing iL because
we're asking for smaller lots or anything. tJe're trying to find a ulaY,
after meeting with staff iL was very c.Lear Lhat Chanhassen wants to be on
the culLing edge of being sensilive. Not iust to uetlands. Not just to
Lrees but lhe big picture of Lhj.ngs relative Lo reaL estate develoPment.
Storm r.r;Ler runoff. Traffic. ouality of Iife. EveryLhing Iike that. BY
pursuing this as a PUD, ure are able to cluster Lhe homes in areas c]'oser
together and mainLain an oPen and green sPace which is an objective of the
City. There's also as you know added tax base Lo the City anyLime a
quality developmenL is promoted t^rithin the citv. At this time I would li.ke
to lalk Lo you about Lhe recommendations that are being presenled to you.
The first thing that I trill do at this time if we could put the first Page
of the recommendalions up. As I stated earlier, for Lhe most Part Ne are
in step and in toLal agreement with wha! we're trving to do here. Since
our ]ast meeting wilh sLaff and everybodv was scuvrying to get alI this
stuff Logether so it could be mailed out Lo the Planning Commission, in
revieL"lirg the information and the r ecommendaL i ons , we have found some jLems
Lhat make it very difficult for us to Proceed with this proPosal - Thev're
noL necessarily overwhelming items bu! when vou add them aII logether, the
economic feasibility becomes unmanageable. And for many, some of these may
be ilems that are put before you as compromises bul what I will urge vou to
consider would be, are they praclical and do they make sense and r:ea.Ily so
they make an economic sense as well. On Lhe botLom of your first Page
dealing with recommendations, under the section labeled Preliminary PIat.
Item number 1. It talks about where the proposed sLreet is reduced lo 26
feet there shall be no Parking signs Posted and a 6 foot wide concreLe
sidewal. k shall be provided over the boulevard. SharP curves located in the
Iong loop street shall be limited to a 10 mph speed limiL and shall have
sharp curve signage. t^le u,,ould ProPose or request that that would be
modified and Lhat we urould maintain the back to back curb would maintain a
25 foot width throughout the entire subdivision and that there urould be no
sidewal-k. If I may let me iust tell vou whv- Nationallv, and Lhis is
fairly we]I know to those who are planners and engineers and even real
estate developers. Nationally there's a movement afoot to reduce the
right-of*way and Lhe PavemenL, the hard surfac'e coverage in neighborhood
communities. tJhy? Because in. the 50's and 5O's neighborhood communities
were designed for automobiles. Nouadavs they're designing them for
families" They're finally getting around to where we don't need to have
Lhese huge right-of-ways, freeways running hither and there through
neighborhood communities. t^le do need adequate right-of-ways on arterials
Planning
August- 7
Commission Heet i n9
199L - Page 4
and collectors so traffic can move in an orderly manner and certainlywithin a safe manner but within locaI, sinalI Iittle neighborhoods andcertainly one of this size where we have 37 tota] home sites in a loopstreet that serves those 37 home sites, we feel that it's really, itcertainly isn't a necessiLy to have Lhe stree! any wider lhan 26 feet. No!^,that was just, th.:'s one aspect of it. The other aspect of it and the
reason we even pursued the reduced righL-of-way to begin with is because asyou know Chanhassen is right on the leading edge of tree preservation,
t^letLand protection. Right-of-way is for roads, is probably the singlebiggest culprit naLionally for impacting both trees, vegetation andwetlands. The point is that Lhe larger the righL-of-way kind of flies inthe face of conservation. Now if health, safety. and welfare is an issue,it certainly should be considered. t"Je do not beli.eve Lhat health, safety
and ureLfare is an i.ssue on this particular proposal. te're talking about37 housing units and we do not belj.eve that it would be impacted at all byhaving a reduced right-of-way. I t^rould like Lo point out that right infront of Cit>, Hall, f believe the sLreet is ca]Ied Chan View, that is a 26foot right-of-way. Right out in front here.
Rick Sathre: Terry, you're saying right-of-way -
Terry Forbord: Excuse me. Pavement width. Right in front of City HaIIand I'd be willing to sugges! and fee.L fairLy strong that I'd be accuraLe,that there are more vehicle trips per day occuring in front of City HaIIthan there would be through this neighborhood community. The poinL I'mtrying to nake is that it has become kind of a sLatus quo in the past to
make Lrjg streets where they're not needed and we don't believe in thisparticular case that Lhe 26 foot pavement back to back is too small. Nor^lthe compromise apparently that uras reached was that lhe only portions inthis particular proposal that would be reduced to 26 feet are the areasaround significant trees. So in other words, He'd be having a pavementuidih t-hat r,rould go from 26 feet to 31 feet then back to 31 feet as iL goesthrough the subdivision. At least that's the way I inLerpret it in therecomnrendalions. t^le beLieve that's confusing and ne berieve that what didwe rea]ly achieve by it, I personally cannot find anything that Lhere wasany gain anywhere. Then there ulas a request for sidewalks. 6 foot ofsidewal ks on only those porlions that happen Lo be 26 feet back !o back,
[.le believe that thaL's probably noL a good use of funds. That it would beconfusing. l"Je do noL believe that it's giving or protecting anyone. !.,e,resomewhat confused by it. rt seems rike an attempt to compromise but againI only ask does it really make sense. Is that a good use of money to dothat so we wourd request that that portion of the recommendation would bechanged so there'd be 26 foot back to back of streets throughout thedeve).opment and those smalI IittIe sections of required 6 foot wideconcrete t^rould be deleted. And r believe when r ]ooked at the plan r courdcome up with they'd be sideuralk approximately 1OO fooL long in one spaceLhat all of a sudden then would disappear. Then in another space iL washard because it's somewhat ambiguous- Then there's another section thatmight have 2oo feet of sidewark and none of them are connected anywhere soit just seemed to me that f wou.Id ask you to consider that it's notnecessary and lhat you r.rourd delete it. on page 2 of the r ecommendat i ons ,this primarily deals with Iandscaping and I think you aII will agree with
me that Lundgren Bros. has probably done more Iandscaping in theirsubdivisions than any other subdivisions uithin the city of chanhassen and
typically in any other city that we develop. [.le have estab]ished a
$45,ooo.oO budget for Iandscaping in this subdivision. Let me ask you just
for a mirrute to focus on this, I'm sure most of you have landscaped atyour own homes and you're operating within a budget. And so you look atyour home, Probably walk out in the street. This is what we do. [^le're
Iookins at the entrances to our subdivision or the areas that we choose to
Iandscape. tJe try to get a view of what is it that people are going to
see. t^lhat is important? Is there something we're trying to screen or is
there something that we're trying to create urhal we call a peek-a-boo that
we Nant somebody to look through and get a corridor of someLhing. tjhenyou're operating r^rithin that budget Lhen, you find out how many places can
I put landscaping maLerials where it really has an impac! - One of Lhe'
things lhat's fairly well known in the landscaping industry, if you've ever
done this on your own home or uorked with a Landscape architect, they will
tel) you to try to form areas that you concentrate your landscaping so it
Iooks Iike there's really something there rather lhan sPreading it aIl over
the place because otherurise wha! happens is there's nothing that really
grabs you and goes uow, So I'd Iike to run you through (a) Lhru (f) andgive you an exp).analion of what we would like, how we'd like to see these
modified. Item 2(a) states that the Iandscaping on the south right-of-way
of Lake Lucy Road directly north of the C]ass A wetland, tle urould ]ike to
delete that for the follouing reasons. FirsL of aII it would block the
view of the wetland. One of the reasons that we chose Lhat site was
because there's a wetland there. t^le knew it had a problem. t^]e knew it was
9oZ dead, or L4re discovered lhat lhrough the process but still it was
something that was really pretty to look at. That's why ure came to Lhe
site. To landscape along there would block that view and Lhat isn't
something that we think is whaL people would want, The other issue Lhat's
even rnore importanL and forgive me for my tyPing but survivability is
misspelled. tJe don'l think they'd survive because we ]ooked at that and I
sat down with our ]andscape architect because we want to put some trees
around Lhe entrances and come towards that wetland buL we're real concerned
for the distance betbleen lhe back of the curb of Lake Lucv Road and the
wetland. Rick, could you put up an exhibit that would depict that.
Probabty jusL a site plan. You can see where the edge of Lhe welland is in
green. I marked it off just by walking. A! the closest Point from the
back of the curb to urhat appears to be uJhere it iust drops bff right to the
uetland is probably about 5-5 feet. The furthest point it's about L7 feeL.
Kind of varies along there. If any of you have ever driven down TH 159 in
Shakopee in VaIIey Fair urhere aII Lhose evergreens are all along the
highway there, 9o look at them now- 30 feet in they're a]l dead and
they're still standing there and the reason they're dead is because of the
phosphates and the chemicals that are put on the road for deicing in Lhe
winter. If r^re did plant trees along there thev'd all die. I think for
that reason alone it was probably a beLter idea to take that money in the
budget and puL it somewhere Lhere's going to be some impact and I'II get to
that in a second. By Lhe Nay, these aren't items that I had a chance !o
talk to slaff about so if we would have had a chance to talk about it, I
think they probably would have agreed with some of this. Item number (b),
we would Iike to delete that. Landscaping along the rear lots adjacent to
the Class A wetland- tJe believe i!'s a uraste of the budget and that it's
not necessary and Rick if you'd pu! up something that urould show the lots.
It has been suggested on more than one occasion during both the informal
and the formal public hearing that Lhere is something possiblv negative
Planning Commission Meet i n9
August 7, 1997 - Page 5
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
799! - Page 6
about beins able to see Lhe back of people's homes " Or the back'yards of
people'= hornes. I should have brought with me slide trays this evening of
Near l4c)untain. You would find all Lhrqugh thaL development lhat the backyards of the peop.l-e's homes are far nicer looking in many cases than the
front yards because people spend the majority of their time in Lhe back
yard so they tend to fix it up pretLy nice. AII those lots Lhat are around
that ]arge DtlR Netland are around lhere and designed there for a purpose.
So Lhe people who live there can have the quiet enjoyment of what is there.
Some of the area as you can see on Lots 14, 13 , 72, 71, , 70, 9, 8, etc. have
some trees there. Lots 8,7,6, 5, 4 are 7OO feet away from Lake LucyRoad. Lots 3,2 and 1 face directly wes! and the poin! I'm making is that
firsL of all I don't think the backs of people's homes are something that
is negative to look at. Secondly, I think that that money, rather than
being spent Lo plant trees in the back of somebody's yard which they'reprobably going Lo do themselves anyway, we could lake lhaL money and we
could use Lhat in other areas that I'II get Lo here in a moment. Number(c). 1'd like to modify number (c), That the landscaping along the 2:1
slope adajacent to Lhe Class A wetland. Establishing the growth is
i.mportanL there because the degree of slope is going to be somewhat severe.But it also is importanl to see the views and we do not believe that
landscaping is necessary there. And Rick, if you'd pu! lhat same exhibit
up again and then point to the area that ure're discussing. Okay this islhe area that we worked very closely wilh slaff in lrying to figure oul hor,lto minimize the impact on existing vegetation, the slopes and on ther^retland. Because Lhere wiII be a severe slope off from the back of thecurb back down towards that wetland, erosion is a concern. Not only to theCity but lo us. t^Je don't want to erode away the base of t.he road there.9taff has r-ecomrnended that eJe use I Lhink iL's trood fiber blankets or mat
along lhere to prevent erosion buL not only lhat. Nhen we were out there
before ure discussed and maybe this is just semantics so maybe it's
something that can be beLLer understood if we had a. chance to lalk abouLit. But I'm nol sure if that's an appropriate area for landscaping. Iguess I would suggest Lhat's an appropl'iale area for very good erosioncontrol and esLablishing of different types of vegetation so it doesn'terode and 90 ahray. Right Lhere as you can see, when people come in, ifyou'd point Lo that street. t^Jhen lhe home buyers are driving down thatroad and they're coming into the subdivision, once they get around LoL 3,one of Lhe other reasons iL's designed, He really want them Lo see thatwetland. Tha!'s really pretty and we don't want to put anything there that
may interrupt that view for Lhe same reasons along Lake Lucy Road. So it'san aestheLic, a design idea that h,e hope people find pleasant so h,e do feelvery much and very strongly that there should be erosion control rightLhere and there should be vegetalion established to make sure that theroadbed doesn't go ar.,ay or anything like that but I'm not sure if that,sthe best place to spend our landscaping budget. Okay, item number (d). !^,edo not have a problem t^rith item (d). Item (e),3 trees, 2 hardwoods and 1evergreen or ornamental per lot. We believe that's excessive. ["re-areaware that Lhe City is considering amending their tree policy. I r,rouldjust like to point out. as far as that excessitivity. Remember the
homebuyer who keeps paying for aII these things that we keep adding ontothe cost of every home and typically home buyers, when they buy a home,they always !.rant Lo Iandscape but it's the thing they do over time. They
clo a liltle bit the first year. A IitLIe bit the second year. A littlebit Lhe thir-d year and after they've gotten adjusted to their payments,
PIanning
August 7
Commission Heeti ng
7991 - Page 7
about the 4th year they star! rea]Iy doing some nice landscaPing and I'm
surc, f k noL,.: I've gone Lhrough Lhat and you have aII gone through that too
anci that's r.Lhy r,r e a.Lways think that getting bevond Lhe 1 tree Per lot
becomes excessive. It's iust another burden in the cost of the home that
we're trying lo control . rtem (f). tle would prefer !o modify that.
There's a home, if you r,rould put uP your exhibit Rick. It would depict the
home north of lhe westerly entrance. Okav, and if you could jus! sland uP
there maybe you could point. tlould you Point Lo the entrance to Lhe
subdivision? okay. Right now that is the westerly entrance and would head
south into the subdivision. You can see that it comes in. There's a
number of modifications made to Lhis entry. Point. Some of them had Lo do
wiLh the preservalion oi wetland. Some of them had to do with the
preservation of significant stands of lrees but lhe oLher thing that we
were concerned about is the impact of traffic heading north towards Lake
Lucy Road and what impact, if any, that would have on the homes to the
north. At Lhe informal neighborhood meeting that we conducted in Juty, the
homeowner there was concerned about lights. They were concerned mainly
aboul what happens in the evening when it's dark and everybody's goL Lheir
headlighLs on and HiIl this impact our home? That hlas a really good
concern. l^le uJere concerned about it as well so we spent considerably time
out there looking at iL and we actuallv moved lhe road to the east. You
can also see it's angled a little bit right Lhere where iL inlersecLs - The
reasons that uJe've done that Primarily, the adjustment to the algle were to
make sure that when cars leaving this subdivision. Bv the uay, there are
two ingress and egress so some of Lhem wi]l be using the other exit but the
primary reason i,.ra s to try lo direct the Lraffic down u,hat would be Lhe
property lines or if you're familiar wifh that subdivision' there's kind of
a wetland area that goes northeast that those headlights would 90 that
direct-ion. Additionally we met with lhe owner of tha! proPerty. Found out
what their concerns u:ere and I personally, we believe very strongly and our
.Landscape architect does as well., Lhat e can nullify any impact to Lhat.
home by the planting of some trees Iike evergreen trees along in there. But
in tlre recommendations it suggest putting berms in and ]andscaping, once
you go into an ar-ea that's alreadv established. It's already landscaped
and you start hauling dumplrucks of dirt in there, we oPen a can of worrns
and this becomes a major projecL right there where we do not believe
there's going to be a significant imPact and Ne do think thaL we can
nutlify any impacl r.,ith the planting of some evergreen trees. It wiII be
green alL year round and that should screen that area. So we wou).d request
ih.t th"t portion of the r ecomriendatio ns would be modified so rather than
staling what it does, that it would say that the applicairl wilL work wiLh
that homeowner to planL coniferous trees to screen from headlights. And by
the way, the headlights don,t go directly into the house. They go into lhe
back yard. Anybody who does choose to go left, they may sHeeP through the
windours and that's r,Jhat we're concerned about too and we think Ne can
accommodate that just r^rith planting of trees. so we would ask thaL you
nrodify !hat. okay, Lhen I believe on the next Page is Lhe last item that I
would ask you to consider modifying. This urould be at the boLLom under
wetland alteration permit. Item 3- tle wou.Id ask you to delete item 3. It
staL€s thaL alteration to the wetlands must occur when it results in the
least impact to the wetland and not duri.ng lhe breeding season. The first
question was I did not know urhaL the breeding season uas because if you
urant to talk about breeding season it r.rould be 12 months a year if you take
into every species of animal Lhat Lhere is. So that Poses a problem
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
t991 - Page I
obviously because there's certain things you can'! do in t.he winlertime.
The CiLy hes a prrlicy thaL you can't pu.LI a building permit unLil thestreets are blacktopped which means you have to slart construction of aparticular developrnent sometime in Lhe spring and I assume just for a
minute that breeding season maybe meanL for maybe ducks or geese or
someLhing like that and that would be in the spring. Lrell, if we were
unable to go in and do any work in lhe spring, i!'s !o the point when doyou do iL? Then the other part of that is if you look at the whole and uredo have a wildlife expert with us this evening. If you look at the whole
impact of development on a particular piece of property and on an area ingeneral , there is some benefit into concentraLing that development process
into the shortest timeframe possible rather than spreading it out over aIong period of time because you may be trying to save maybe a duck orducklings here or there but over a Iong period of time of development maybethe erosion and the sedimentation problems created with development are
worse because you're Laking more time to do it. So there's a trade-off.Every time you try to save something here, you may be exaccerbating theproblem here. So ure r^rould ask you Lo delete that. That does not mean Lhat
uJe do not want lo be careful but the way that this is r^rritten, i! puts wha!
we believe to be an unreasonable consLraint just on the developmentprocess - In summary, I wou.Id Like Lo reiterate agaj.n that for the mostpart ure are loOZ behind and in agreement about Hhat staff has done and I,dlike to al.so reiterate that. it's been fun. This has been challenging. Ithink as PauI slated, or excuse me. I'm not sure if it uas paul but asstaff stated in the report, he believes that this is kind of the shapes ofLhings to conre possibly. Not. only in Chanhassen but possibly everywhere.f mean r,rhere Lhere's a working relalionship between the public and privatesector Lowards these sensitive Lypes of issues. Ue Iike !o think u:e,vealways been like that but ure're learning more about this as times goes byalso and so in summary I Nould like to ask you to consider our request for
amending Lhe recommendations. I do have for each of you a copy of tha! foryour reference. If you have any questions we'd be happy to ansurer them.
[.le do have our we!]and and wildlife people here and our engineers so pleasefeel free to ask any questions that you may have.
Emmings: f'm sure the questions will come. Thanks 'f eyyy - This is apublic hearing. l,J e ask at this point if there are any member of the publicthaL are here that would l j.ke to express their concerns or ask anyquestions they may have with regards to this proposal. Is there anybodyhere who wants to speak?
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to close the public hearing- AII voted infavor and the motion carried- The public hearing was closed_
Erhart; I'll just start out maybe, one subject that seems to run throughtwo discussions tonight and that's Lhe street bridth and right-of-way width.r seem to remember for most of the time I've been on the commi.ssion herethat the standards for right-of-way in cu.: and gutter streets uas always50 feet and you kind of slate here that in lhe report on this subdivisionLhen it uias changed. Let's see, CiLy Code recently amended to increaseurban streel right-of-way standards from 50 !o 50 feet so that right-of-waywould be consistent throughout the CiLy. Uhat does that mean to beconsistent throughout the City,
PIanni ng
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
f997 - Page 9
olsen: In the rqral areas it was 60 foot right-of-way so Ne !.ranted i! to
be consistent that' a 60 foot throughout the City. And another reason and
Charl.es can add to this was so that aII the utilities and everything t'raswithin that right-of-way. It's not necessary to have the outside easementsin adclition to that .
Erhart: Did we at the same time Lhen increase Lhe street Nidth from 25 to
31 feet or has it always been 31 feeL?
Folch: 1'm not sure if it. always has been
number of years. The narrowest road widLh
that way
has been
but it has been
31 feet back to
for a
back.
Emm i ngs: Whatdon't know -
does back to back mean? You've both used tha! term and I
Folch: Back of curb to back of curb basically which is considered a
roadway dimension.
Emmings: Okay.
Erhart: Then I heard the other night, the difference between a 60 footri.ght-of-r,:ey for use of utilities may still be justified. However Ithought the reason there was a difference in rural lots you had a ditchLllrich Look trp a lot more space on either side surface. r assumed that u.rasalr,rays the reason why rural was 60 and urban Has 50. But again we havemore uLilities and cables and everything Iike that. That may be justified _-I thousht I heard lhe other night, you were talking. ft was in lhe staffhere thal nna).be we ought to look at and then again it suggested a landscapeordinance discussion that r.re ]ook at at least going to narrow streets maybein smaller subdivisions. I guess I Nould tend to agree ulith that.Certainly we ought to sludy it when we get to that point because there is
some ar-eas around here where the streels.seem massive. The expense ofputting the street in. You've got to maintain it over the next how manyhundled years. PIow it and quite frankly it's hard to service. t^lhetherthis subdivision ought to have 26 feeL or not, I don't know. It just seemsthat if there's inclination to review thaL, this ought Lo be one that oughtto be considered. I don't think, it doesn't make any sense to me to putthe sidewalks in. I guess Lhat doesn't make sense. I'd also like to sayit's unfortunate that maybe the applicants and the staff didn,t get a totalk about some of the additional landscaping so maybe what ue ought toaddress lhere is, Ieave it loose and end up with the developer and thestaff meet to kind of nail down those last items before Council rather thantry... In general again, as I stated the last time, I think the developerhas taken an area and obviously gone over almost every square foot andtriecl to address and come up with a plan that makes sense and f guess-..I have a question on your page 5 here where it implies thaL, and maybe thisis just verbage Jo Ann. On the first paragraph there you say thaL you,rereferring to the tree preservation plans where we require. Treepreservation plan comes in. Let's see. Buildins pad is showing moving
some of the most significant t,rees and then we,re left to argue withbuilder and homeowner over redesigning their home. Do we really argue urith
homeowners about what their homes?
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
f997 - Page 10
Olsen: NeIl yeah. s,ometimes you do have where we've had, some of theproblerns recently in Shadoarnere where u:e've had tree removal plans required -and what's happened is the builder has actually gone out and removed the itrees. L.leII they've met with the homeouner. They know Lhat Lhere's a treepreservation plan required and they remove the trees so iL fits the design
of lhe house that t-hey ulant where actually if you rearranged it you could -
have saved those trees so there's been some, in the past we've had the tree I
preservation plans and it really hasn't preserved the trees. I mean therestill hasn'L been very much sensitivity in designing the whole and working --around what exisls there. It still comes Lo where it's cleared. They put Iin the home and then they call us and tJe go out and it's a little late. SOyeah, there has been some difficulty. So what we're trying to do with this -is to rea.Lly preserved and make it clear that, and with that tree ipreservation plan we have worked around saving sizeab.le areas for
housepads.
Erhart: fn your mind who is the ultimate authority to decide if a treegets removed or not?
olsen: The homeowner? 'I know what your's is.
Erhart:
who's 9o!
olsen: I
Home
the
oi^Jner . I'm sorry,
ulLimate author ity
home bu.i I der .
to decide if a
The builder. .,homeowner,tree gets removed or not?
know what your opinion is-.l
Krauss: To back up on that a ]ittle bit. t^lhen you buy a Project and Iycu're buying into tree preservation as one of the elemenLs that sells theproject and is a good move for a city, you have to have some assurance that -tthat tree preservation is going to occur. Not, on plans where ule've had Ispecific areas set aside or specific trees. For examPle in Vineland Forest
if you recall there were specific trees that we said were going to be
preserved and we uJent out there and they were preserved. The contractors ''l
i.liro built the roads knew they had to be preserved. PeoPIe who built houses I
on those lots knew they had to build around those,
Olsen: But since then they have been removed. I
Krauss: There was one that had been removed. But the Problems come intoplay where ure've had this ambiguous statemenf like Lots 13 thru 14 should
ihave a tree preservalion plan. tJeII you get the old line- I'II save every
tree...to cut down to build the house. tlhat we want is to Put the cart
before the horse and to say where we have specific areas that are valid and -''l
worthy or tree preservation, let's block them out. Let's puL an easement l
arournd them. That easement will shot^r up on the Litle and when somebody
looks at buying Lhe lot. t^lhen Lundgren's sits down with these people,
they're going to say you can't put house PIan 49-A on this one because it ]doesn't fiL. You're going to have Lo Lwist it around to accommodate what
you r,,ant in tree preservation. It Puts the emphasize I Lhink where it -should be. ,
Erhart: I don't have any problem with the tree Preservation easements. I
think Lhat's a good idea because Lhat's part of the overall design for the
development. I'm just a ]itt]e cur j.ous what our City's Position is with
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i n9
7991 - Page 11
the honreor.rner who buys a lot. He uJants to build his house the way he wants
to build it anrl he wants to end up the trees the uay he wants them ended
up. l.1uch as I agree we want Lo encourage and enlighten and coerce and
everything, I guess I just hrant to make in my mind there's a Point where bygolly if it's his lot and he wants to cut down the trees, that's his
perrogative . That's my opinion.
0Isen: Risht , that's your opinion.Rieht.
'm trying to clarify is what the cityEr har t : t^lhen I
staff.
see the term, what I
Olsen: tJe're not beating each other up out there. Usuallv what we do is
work r..r!th, when we have had these in the past I've brought out Alan Olsen
and then we have worked with the homeowner and actually had the homeowner
out there ',rith us to Hork with them. This is Lhe house design Lhey wanL
then these trees will be impacted and remove them nouJ. It's noL, rnaybe
that uas t-he r.rrong r^rord but we have had some cases where ue have
specifically, such as Vineland, say sPecific some really imPortant slands
of trees and uhere now ure have Lhe homeowner who wanLs to put the garage
right through those and that's where we do try to take a strong stance.
Erhart: f agree because a Iot of times a lo! of that gets lost betureen
time t.he horneowner really doesn't think about it and I like the process
force him to think about it. But anyway I'II get off that. on Page 9
there, am I reading that Lo say that our PUD doesn't al]ow, on the toP
there, doesn't allow 30 feet selback from the street?
the
to
olsen: That's the perimeter. Exterior sides.
Erhart: That doesn't affect their desire to do a 20 fooL, okay.
waives the i nter na lKrauss: In fact Lhere's language in the
setback requirement.
PUD that
Olsenr I thought I read that one place and had a hard time tying i!
together. tjhaL's under the concern about raising the wetland 2 feeL and I
realize you're going to go into that. Maybe Charles you could address it.
Are you talkins about Lake Lucy or are you Lalking about the street the
developer 's putting in?
Folch: This particular issue was brought to my attenlion late last
my street superintendent who has been urith the city for a number of
and recall.s back !o r.lhen lhis road was improved and it's his belief
uree k by
year sthat.
Emmings: tlhen you say this road, you mean Lake Lucy?
Folch: Lake Lucy Road. It's his belief that one of the Primary. reasons
why the i-cad was raised at Lhat location basically is to get the road
subgrade at an elevation abcve where it normally would be wet and saturated
from a sLability sLandpoinL. I've gone back Lhrough the file. I canno!
find any specific information related to that. Hoxever, mv gut feeling is
this could be a vali.d point to at Ieast invesLigate and make sure that we
aren'l adversely impacting the road subgrade by raising the urater level .
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
799! - Page !2
sornething that needs to be addressed.
enough information but we need to Iook
At this point in time I don'tinto it.
Erhart: Just my comment on tha! is I think one of the really good thingsthat they're doing on this is sLablizing Lhe water leveL in that ulhole area
and whether we agree it looks the way it is because it's some nutrien!Ioading or whatever it is, it's only going to become a valuable wetland
when you can stabilize the r,:ater level at a higher level. I think iL'sreally good...so f guess obviously the developer urould have a problem. Let
me just stress quickly the other issues that were raised regarding theconditions thal were added at the last minute. I assume you're looking for
some comments on that Jo Ann?
It's
hav e
Olsen:
survive.
OIsen: Yes -
Erhart: okay, so Ne'Il go to page 2\ on 2(a). Item (a). Again since you
haven't had the sLaff and the developer hasn't had a chance, f'm not going,I thirrk it's best for you guys to get togeLher and talk these throughso I'IL just give you some views. I think we should do some plantins ofdeciduous trees along the, again without realIy studying it. Along thesouth right-of-way of Lake Lucy Road but in those areas h,here there's
adequate highland area and where it can be a reasonable distance from thecurb. So I think you're going to have Lo kind of go out and look.
And that's what we were pl-anning on doing in a species that would
Erhart: Like every 40 foot plant a hardwood and you could stil] see
underneaLh the hardwood and out there. Item (b), I agree that ure shouldn,tbe asking them to put landscaping in the rear lots. (c) again, f wouldagree that we ought to put some haldwoods along that 2r1 slope maybe every30 feet to give it the boulevard effect.
olsen: And again, that's a pretty extreme slope andabout uas something Lhat would maybe not even, trees
sorne higher.
urhalthat He b,er e thinkingwon't wor k r,rith
Erhart: Item (d), given that this is a PUD and it appears as though we,regoing to adapt some kind of a landscape ordinance in the near future it,sreasonable to ask the developer to conform to that. I also think in item(e) though if ue're 9oin9 lo do that we ought to note that the landscapeordinance allows them to have alternatives to planling 3 trees also. So ifexisting 5 inch Lrees exist. Lastly, I do believe, I think Terry has agood point. Going in and dumping a bunch of dirt on the north side tobuild a berm right nou may noL, probably didn't sound very pracLical but Ido believe planting evergreens would solve thaL problem with the lights.So thaL's it Mr. Chairman.
Emmings: They have one
number 3?
more Tim over in the wetland alteration permit,
Erhart:
Emm i ngs
Clh yeah, I did have one. You rrust have seen my notes.
The Chairman sees everythi n9 .
Planning
August 7
Comnrission Heet i ng
7991 - Page 13
Erhart: Yeah, I think we've been very consistent in not allowing
aLteraLian o-f wetlands during mitgatory waterfowl breeding season' [,le
shoulcl stick urith that hor.rever we could delete the other verbage that
about least- impact to r.reli.and. Probably the comments are valid. Do I
anymore Steve?
taI ks
have
Emmings: No you don't. t^las I r ight?
Er hart: Yep .
conrad: Jo Ann, gan you briefly summarize. for me what the previous
subdivision looked like?
(JIsen: LrS.Doa
Coirrad: Yeah. Several years ago.
Rick S,athre: I've got Lhe initial one.
Olsen: It's right in this area. It had
acroa:: from A.r.Iington. It had 6lots in
Conrad: so r^re never had a plan for the
CtIsen: No, we never did.
Conrad: okay. tlhy
bac [:. on urhat they'd
the cuI-de-sac com i ng
addition to the Ersbo
in directlyproperty.
wester Iy part of that?
isn't the DNR, what's taking the DNR some time to ge!
Iike to do?
Olserr : uell have to, Ne did have CeiI come out and that was kind of as
Lhis applicat-ion goes out. It goes kind of midway into our aPPlication
that the Dl.lR r.ras brought in because they received our submission to them
for our comnnents. once she was out there it uras really difficult for her
to determine exactly where the ordinary high water mark is. So r.ihat they
have to do now is bring out their survey creH so that takes some time.
ThaL's r,rhy it's Laking. It's going to be another month- I don't know if
you know when they're coming out. The survey creul but.
Conrad: So their first letter back Lo us on July 1oth.
olsen: Just r.riLh the plans. ThaL's aII they're looking at was our Plans.
Krauss: t.,elL 1'd add too that the DNR letter that was included in your
packet was based upon the original plan that ue brought to you conceptually
severa.I r+eeks ago. The plans that are before you tonight have been refined
extensively based on not only concerns the DNR raised but our concerns as
uell and we brought them back out to the site and we think a lot of their
concerns are being addressed and Lhev've indicated to us Lhat seems Lo be
the case but they just don't have the final letter ready for us vet.
conrad: t^JeII I'm real interested in what Lhev have Lo sav. tJhen u,e get a
proposaJ. f o:- modification to tre!Iands, we really don't have exPerts - Other
people can bring in experls and r guess the best He can do is lean on the
DNR and riaybe a few oLher agencies that can help us. I'm kind of
Planni ng
August 7
Commission Meet i n9
799! - Page 14
fascinaLed by what they believe. [.le're ta]king state-of-the-ar t wetlandpreservatjon and it kind of sounds neat but theri again I don't knou,r. I'mprobably hearing one side and I don't know if you two or staff believes. Doyou believe that this is state-of* Lhe-ar t Lype of wetland preservation? 'To
me this sets a lot of precedent for what we should be doing. And therefoie
it's just absolutely, if this is the precedent, I uanL to make sure iL's
the right one. The obvious next direction is to follow it up in terms of
what our wetland ordinance says. Some of the things I endorse are some ofthe things I just don't have a clue if they're right or trrong and I need
sornebody other Lhan somebody a developer brings in. I need somebody that
advises us Lhat this is. Everytime you do one thing you rea}Iy, you can be
improving one thing but you can be doing some harm in anoLher area. Ithink we're all aware that wetland serve a different function and is this
wetland, is this A wetland primarily habitat? Is it water quality? Uhatis it? Is it the setting? Is it ground water? Then I get a little bit
confused but anyuray, I really would have.liked to have seen what the DNRsaid as f reacL to this design. It's sort of like saying I kind of likeit. UhaL I'm seeing. I Iike the idea of a PUD. I think this is a great
example of how a PUD can work. Some clustering. I like hour this can wor kbut then there's so many other unknou,ns to me and the only expeyts that I
have that I feel are kind of non-biased maybe, f'm not sure that they're
sta te-of -Lhe-ar t but at least unbiased would be the DNR and so I'm reactingto nothing right now. I'm not going to take a r^rhole ]ot of time on some of
my cornrnents but teII me staff about the 6 foot path. I assume as we go
down fronr 31 to 25 we're worried about pedestrians. BuL I also assume,
f 've gct Lo make sure that I heard what Tim's comment was. It is a 31 foot
pavement excetrt in a few areas where it's 26- t"lhy is it? I heard TerryLaIk aboul 25 might be a better way, or a future way of going in LhecounLry. Is that a fuLure way of going in Chanhassen and why are r.ie at 31versus 26 for this? And speak to me a IitLIe bit about pedestrian. I go
through Lhe Lundgren development, Near Mountain and on some days thestreets are Iined uith people. They're just lined wiLh people walking andTerry you should go over and see them. They're al] out in the street and Iguess they like that but then that gets back to my concern alulays of howwe're moving people around. As bre reduce the size of the street, thenwe're moving people around on that street. So I'm sort of aL a loss. Ilike shrinking the street but I Norry about people moving.
Olsen; And those are some of the concerns that bre had also. tle are Iookingat reducing lhe right-of-way with Iike the landscape ordinance and is kindof the way things are moving is to less pavement and all of lhat but theCity still has a 31 feet which is we're still comfortable with that. [^Je'renot prepared to say that 26 feet is the risht r.ridth and if you do have it?6 feel, then you don't need a sidewalk or you do need a sideuralk. It has
been done in other cities and they'II probably go through Lhat but it isbeing done in Hinnetonka and Eden Prairie and other cities do successfully
have the reduced pavement.
conrad: Is there an associated sidewalk ,lith that or how does that?
Olsen: Not in aII cases.
Folch: Mr. Chairman if I
ordinance was establ ished
add some L j. ght onto
number of reasons -
that. The 31 footIt wasn't just an
might
for a
Planning
August 7
Commiss.i.on Meeti ng
1991 - Pase 15
arL,itrary nunrber that was set. And I think safety is a key issue here.
You carr say p.:rking's not going to occur on the street but yes it dces.
People h;i!,€ satherings. People enLertain guests. You have mail service,
Garbag. service- There's going to be vehicles parked on streeLs frorn timeto time and when you narrow that roadway Nidth down, you not only are
narrouring the competing area beLh,een vehicles manuevering around that butalso the peCestrians and that's a very, very important issue because Ithink in this area particular Iy uhere you have some quality environrnentalamenities that people are going to h,ant to get out and t"ral k around thatneighborhood. They're going to want to see things and take a look atthings. They don't have a wq).k so they're going to. have to make use of thestreet. In the 2 areas where there was difficulties getting around ther.retrands Nhere r.Je were agreeable to reducing the width down to 25 feeL, wethought it was a good compromise by also providing this walk off the streett.o allow the pedestrians not to have to compete with the automobiles in anarrot:ed road width. 31 feet also allotis better sight Iines and cleardistances for people getting in and out of the driveways. Looking doxnstreets, eepecially on curvalinear roadways. There's a number of aspectsrelated to safetv that are involved wi.th that road width establishment,fL'. not just an arbitrary number that somebody decided 31 sounds Iike agood number.
conrad: Terrv r'rhe rr )'ou Nere in here a couple months ago you were tarkingabcut Lhe Near Hountain development and talking about iilver Lake and malbethere'd be some nature trails there. you didnit design any nature trairsin this development. you were saying in the very beginnins yo, factor inall the costs and that way later on things are gcing to come outeconcnrjcally for ever-ybody but I think you t{ere speaking real positively ofsome of the amenilies that a naLure trail could bring, -Hasn't beende signe d here. r',lot that r need you Lo put it in but r ,, .uiiou= urhy inthis particular development, r mean given Lhat you have a wetland that,srathcr prettv an,c given that you did talk to us'seveiar monir,= ago abouthcw that *oulcl be a nice amenity in some cases. t,rhy wasn't it put in here?
Terrv Forl)ord: Mr. chairman, members of the planning commission. TerryForbord, Lunclgren Bros.. r don't recall speaking to you about naturetrails or anything relevent Lo sirver Lake and Near Mountain. r do recallspeaking to the planning Commission about planned unit developmeni; ";;---some of the things that may enhance a pranned unit development. That u,asnot a sweeping statement Hhere arI planned unit developments should havethose tvpes of amenities- Everv situation is different. rhe other thing,there's been three tinres during Lhis discussion where this subdivision hisbeen compared to Near Mountain. Near Mountain is 35o acres that has closeto 5oo housing units- There's a big difference betueen a 3o acre sitewhere 41% of the land is open space, t^retlands and only 37 housing unitsversus a huge planned unit deveropment and so when you look at the scalevou geL into pracLical thoughts real quickly. tlhat really makes sense froma dvnamic design and aesthetic standpoint and then obviously from aneconomic feasibility standpoint and that's why.. I mean it ttouldn,t make alot of sense Lo do that. And even the park and Recreation Board agreed -
conrad: S,o basically a walk trail in people,s back yards is not a sellablecornnrodi t y?
PIanni ng
August 7
Commis: l on l,'leeti ng
L99l - Page 15
Terry Forbord: We find in 22 years that the vast majority, and I say the
vast majority of people, number one Lhey do not want a sidewalk in front of
Lheir home. They don'! want to Pay for .iL and they don't wan! to maintain
it and they don't brant anybody walking in front of Lheir yards. Number
tr^ro, they've even more adamant abouL a trail in their backyard because
that's t^rhere they go to relax. Nowadays when you've got a sPouse, both
spouses are working, they come home, what they reaLly brant to do is have
some quiet enjoyment of the things they're trorking so hard to have and Lhev
usually escape to the backyards of their homes and the last thing they want
are a bunch of people taalking back and forth in their backyard so it's a
phenomena Lhat from an idealistic standpoint it t^rould be truly wonderful to
have trails everywhere but from a realistic standpoint, when you look and
say does it really make sense. Do peoPle really want it and are Lhey
willing to pay for it, we find exactlv the oPPosite.
Conrad: You did make that statemenL severa.I months ago about the validity
of naLure trails and when you design them in the front end and economically -factor them into Lhe equation they will happen but I don't need a nature .
Lrail here. I'm just curious about what Lundgren's sees as imPortant
amenities as sort of a way I learn about what's going on and what's
sellable and urhat PeoPIt'' are wanting- But thanks.
Terry Forbord: I don,t Want tO misundersLood because there certainly
point urhere that would be apPropriate. So don't misunderstand Lhat I
against them- I am for them.
rs a
'm
Conrad: They weren't factored in here- Yeah, I
They're jusL not here and I wanted to know ulhy'
this buffering sLrip around the wetland?
Olsen: Us . Staff .
conrad: Nho?
Ol sen: t^lho specif icallY?
Conrad: Yeah, PauI? So there's a stake
weLland is and then Lhere's a 10 yard or
know what you 'r e
Staff , who wiII
out in the ground where the
25 yard.
sayi n9 .
monitor
Krauss: Any survey's that submitted to us for building Permit ulill shot"t
both the uelland line plus Lhe conservation area, whatever we call it.
l"le'r,e been talking to ierry about monumenting the line. That's always been
a problem.
Kr auss :
olsen:
conrad: The
Olsen: The
t^]e'11 have a couPle of things-
It wiII be on easemenLs and shot, uP on surveys'
weLland Iine or the.
buffer.
buffer? OkaY.Conr acl : The
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
799f - Page 77
Krauss: So everybody knows where
monkeyed with it and that kind ofout arrd retrace.
it is and you know if your neighborsthing. It's someLhing that you go back
Conrad: Arrd
OIsen:grass,The
what's this buffer zone going to
vegeLation will just be a natural
consist of?
vegetation. MostIy ca nar y
Conrad: 5o if one person cuts inLo i.t it might stand ou!?
O.Lsen: tlell it's going Lo be 9oin9.going Lo be just a straight line so
someone's cutting their 25 feet intonotice something, if somebody calls,those stakes and look at Lhe survey.
from 10 feet to 25 feeL. It's not'it mig,ht not be real obvious ifa 15 foot but that's why if we doue will be abLe to 9o in and find
Cc,nracl: UelI l like the idea. I'm just worried about carrying it out.
Olsen: I think we've had the most difficultypast and these are things we've always talkedagain it 's. experimental.
trying to protect them in theabout that might be good so
that that 's a
not
O]sen: No. They have no
Conrad: Thewe're sayi ng
Cc nr ad :
Krauss:
Conrad:
OIsen:
Conrad:
OIsen: tlereal good
co ncer ned -
setback fr om
45 now. The
They don't have a
the wetland, especially Class A is 15 feet soDNR has final say?
setback on that.
setback from a Class A weLland?
Only from lakes.
Only from Iakes. It's our ordinance that,s 75?
Risht.
Are they reacting? They're not reacting Lo that are they?
've told
but
them about the buffer strip and they thinkas far as lhe setbacks themselves, they,re
Conrad: Okay, tJhat .is a 2 foot increase inmakes it more of an open water space righL?of a pond than it is a wetland or what?
i dea
Conrad: Aeration planned or there isno dredging to clean up all the stuff
Olsen: t^leLl they,re doing it to see if that willIot of, I don't know if it's duckueed but there'sthey're hopi ng that thaL.
kind of remove, there,s aa Iot of algae on top so
no aeration planned for that? There'sthat's run in there?
water and Class
Less vegetation
A wetland
so it 's more
Planning
AugusL 7
Commission Meeti ng
7991 - Page 18
o.Lsen: We discussed that and a ]ot of, again wiLh the DNR and Fish and
H.iIdIife and people aren't real excited thinking that would reallv resolve
the problem. So with dredging the sedimentaLion you mean?
Conrad: Yeah "
Conrad: I think there has to be some Pedestrian. I'm comfortable. I
don't knor^r. I don't mind taking a 31 foot street to 25 bu! I need staff
endorse Lhat right now and right now they haven't. That sort of bothers
me. r guess I have a tough time reacting to thaL- I almost have to go
with what staff's saying. I do need some Pedestrian, I do need to be
confident that the pedestrians have been Laken care of, especially around
the 26 foot areas. I don't know what to do right now - I guess in the
absence of not knowing u,hat to do I have to 9o with sLaff on ulhat they're
suggesling. However, on the other hand, I sure don't mind reducing the
impervioui surface of Lhat street if somebody could satisfy my needs to
move people around safelv. The ualkers. Does the Lundgren plan of
$4o,Ooo.oo for shrubbery and what have you, does that meet our neN
standards where ]et's say Lhis was a $6 mil.lion dollar develoPment' 1Z?
Olsen: It doesn't applY
conrad: It doesn't apply. I knor^r it's not in but are we trying to use
some of those standards?
O]sen: Those standards don't, we can't real.Ly aPPIY them to Lhis to
residential.
olsen: oh veah.
Conrad: Okay. I
those Lhings out.
poinL number 3 on
the wording shou I d
to
Krauss: Uhat does apply though is, it more closelv correlates to
irnJ=."ping standards ti'rat are being ProPosed for the subdivision
oidin.n... This talis abouL perimeter IandscaPing and boulevard
and trees on the Iot.
the
planti ng
conrad: Okav. Last couPle things are just reaction to some of the
Iandscaping issues. ia;= ieally-tough when Terry's saying one thing and
"trff i= suggesting ,noth.t - Like Tim said, I reallv would like to have
staff and the developer urork it out. I think there's something to having
vistas on wetlands so-that PeoPle driving by. t,e don't need to block them '
r ifrinX if you take a look at the other Lundgren develoPments' back yards
rea]]yaren,tunattractivethewaythey'vedeveloPedotherProPertieSsotha! doesn,t boLher ,"-"itfr"t bu! I still trant, I sLill feel comfortable in
";tir;, enforcing Lh;2 hirdwoods and 1 evergreen in Lhis develoPment and
i"ss oifs"t. t^,ould that be, if ther,ve already got 2 or 3 on that
prop".ty, then tha! Particular lot is taken care of?
really have to defer to staff and the develoPer to uork
I can't be smart enough Lo outguess Lhat' And then
the wetland'alteration Permit- I guess I don't know what
be on that. [,Je're certainlyr as you get so close to a
Erhar!: If I could interrupt here. I think keeP in mind some years, in
dry years the whole thing dries uP. Currently the r^ray it is.'.
Planning
August 7
Commission MeeLi ng
1997 - Page 19
wetland and it's so cLose you're in the wetland when you're putting in thestreets and what have you and fiII, I guess f'm concerned about how that'sdone. And so I think that's what Lundgren has to live within is what thestaff sets up as permissible so.Lhat it doesn't affect the wetland thaLmuch. If spring is the time that the deveLoper comes in and puts roads,that's when there's a l-ot of runoff. I'm concerned with what happens butagain I have !o defer to what staff suggests.
Rick Sathre: I'm Rick SaLhre. I'm the engineer for the project. There
b,,ere a couple things that commissioner conrad, issues that he raised that rthink I could address. Specifically how we changed the impact on the DNRwetland
Emmi.ngs: Do you uJant him
1i ke him to answer?
Lo address that? Did you have a question you,d
Conrad: Let's keep going and Rick if you coulddone. Maybe that uould be appropriate.
Emmings: AIright, Tim. tJhat's your name?
comment after we're aII
Batzli; I'd Iike to say that I think, I appreciate the sensitivityLundgren and staff have put into this and nou, r,d Iike to himmer itlittle biL- Jo Ann, have we figured out what is the net average Iot
Olsen: It's 30,OOO.
BatzIi: My name's
Emmings: Okay, go
Olsen: No I don't .
Brian but I'Il answer to Tim tonighL.
a head .
t hat
a
size?
Batzli: No that's gross isn,t it?here that are totally undevelopable.we've got her e?
If you took out the wetland portion
Do you know what kind of lot sizes
Batz]i: Okay. f'm not going to talk abouL that much. I think Jeff ,sgoing to, unless r calr. vou Brian Lonight. r don,t know. r think LhaLwe've got some rearly smarl lots in heie and we,re g"inJ to-u. putting somepretty big hcuses on them and we're not doing oursef""=-.ny favors. ifrecent experience with pUD's is any indication regarding real smalI ]otsizes and houses put next to each other as far as variaices in the futurego. As far as what these homes look like, granted you're going to have abig wetrand in the middte of a rot of them especiarry on Brock 2 but fromjust looking at the impact of what these homes crowded n""i-t" each otherwould look Iike fairly small lots from the road, I think some of theneighbors and mavbe none of them spoke tonight but r Lhini they alr feellike it's going to appear as if these are very small lots. Even if you puta fairlv nice house on there, they're concerned and I,d like Lo know whaLthe heck these lo! sizes are really going to rook Iike once you factoi'outboth the protected area and the wetlind be"au=" it appears, especiarry inBlock 2 that they are going to look very tiny. I also. f,av" a comment or
Planning
August 7
Commission Heet i ng
t997 - Page 20
question about what your density net is. Did you calculate the wetland
size Lo be taken out as 8.6 acres?
olsen: No actually I did the 8.3
Batzli: And do you take out the road when you calculate that? I think
that number should be much higher. C]oser Lo !.7 or better - I'd like vou
to Iook at that again. on Lot 7, Block 1 thev've onlv got 40 feet on the
curve. Don't we have some kind of rule or regulation about that?
I thought we had required more.
O]sen: on a curve you have to
Batzli: At the setbac k?
Ol sen: Ri ght .
Batzli: And we've gol 90 feeL
Olsen: No, no but .
Krauss: Keep in mind this is
BatzIi: Yeah, I understand.
look at it?
have the 9O feet at the setback.
there?
olsen: IL Has in the tab]e. I pointed out which ones don't meet that'
a PUD - It's not
Do we Iike that?
RSF standards.
Do we comment on it? Do we
Batzli: I know but do PeoPIe l.ook at i! from the standPoint
to have a couple of drivewavs righL next to each other on the
cay e? I don't know. Should we share a drivetlay there?
of we're
cur ve?
going
Do we
Krauss:
OIsen:
t^.le have actua I Iv asked that that be modif ied '
As a curve.
Kraussr t^,le uJanted the eyebrow removed and the driveulay shared if necessary -
but it would open that area uP quite a bit'
Batz]i: f guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint that it looks mightv -
crowded on the "urr" .nd esiecially if, tlell I don't think the Pavement is
reduced in width there is it at that Poin!. Is the road uridth in Fox
ttollow reduced from 31 feet? Do you guys knoN? It seems to me that. there -
was something granted in Fox Hol.]ow. Either the right-of-way or either the
Iwidth itself. Do You guys know?
Fo]ch:ThatI'dhavetocheckon.I'mnotauareofoffhand.I'dhaveto
find out for sure. I don't recall
Batzlir It seems to me iL's narrower in t'hat Particular- develoPment and I
guess I'd, I mean I agree with Lundgren that I think sidewalks r'rould
ietracL from this pariicular development from a sellability standpoinL.
tlith Lhe Light curves. I know in my particular development it's a
p"i"nti.f pioblem with people driving their cars too fast around the curves
Planning
August 7
Commission Mee! i ng
f991 - Page 2t
ancl especially there's a hiLl
has a coup.ie of slope areas -goirrg to L,e fairly consistent
and a curve area in our development and thisI'm not sure, is the elevation of the street
Char les do you knor.r?
Folch; In fact it r^Jon't. You're soins to have the
down on both sides from the north down to the south
have your lower points so it wilI fluctuate.
grade
where
wi 1I beyou're com i nggoing to
BatzI i :
sout h?
t her e?
5o
You
you're going to be coming, especial. Iyre going to be coming down a hiII and
on the east
then around
side goi n9a cor ner
Folch; ExactIy.
Batzli: Is that one of the areas where the width is reduced?
Folch: That-'s one of the areas where dueit has been proposed to reduce the widthin thaL area geometrically.
to the existing site limitationsin order to get the road to work
Batzli: r don't know. From a safety standpoint d }ike to see somethingthat's for sure. There's been a rot of close calls with liLtle kids on or]rroad in an area similar to that. r'm not sure if the reduced road width isgoing to impact it that much or not. r asked Iast time if ue could take alook at i ncorporating any of the road structure of this development into apotential development to the west. t^ras anything rearly done on that?
Krauss: There's a couple reasons we didn't pursue that. First is thatthere r+as an original pran that looked to do that and t^rhen ih. prop"rtyowner t-o the west was thinking about throtaing the property in. He sincedecided not to pursue that xhich makes it difficult to anticipate a streetconnection through there. The grades get rather tough. ri you don,t havethe. cooperation of property and know ho* it,s going [" a""uflp, it getsrather Lough !o see where a road,s going to cui thioush.
Batzli: f know we,ve done this hypothetically in the past andthat we're going to end up with another entrance right on thecharing bend there in Lhe next development down which is goinssomewhere between 1OO and 2OO feet away when it seems to ie weincorporate it. I don't know. If you say it,s impossible, I
Krauss: I don't think it's impossible. [.le see athat it's not impossible but it's quite difficult.
I just thinkother side ofto be
might try tobelieve you,
concep! that demonstr ates
olsen: There are some wetLands right adjacent to, on the west. r don'tknow if you've got something that shows that.
Batz]i: If and when we ever get a trail systemto have one along Lake Lucy Road?
in this city, are ue going
that trail system is there. There's an addilional. easementOlsen: I thi.nkfor that trail.
Batzli: fs there one already?
Planning
August 7
Olsen: There's an on street trail.
Batzli: That's as much as we'II ever
Commissron Meet i ng
7997 - Page 22
tleII there's an easementgot is what you get. You
deter m i ne -
Just a bi ke trail.
get there?
for off'street but I think that uhaL
know it's for the park departmenL toolsen:
you 've
real Iy
Batzli: Terry, if I can direct this question to you. l^lho will
Iittle piece of land on the northwest corner of the deVelopment
lhat's by the entrance? Is that Lot 23's ProPerty uP there?
Batzl i : So you're not
that in that ar ea?
own lhe
there
Terry Forbord: Hr. Chairman, members of Lhe Planning Commission. Terry
Forbord wiLh Lundgren Bros,. Just to make sure I understood your question.
The very northwest corner just west of Lhe road there's uhat aPpears to be
a triangular piece of proPerty that goes along the h,estern boundarv. That
is part of Lot 23, you 're absolutely correct.
Batzli: So it will be up to Lot 23 to maintain that piece of ProPertv?
Terry Forbord: sir, Mr. commissioner, that area is a Preservation zone.
It wilI have deed restrictions on it where it wil] maintain it's natura]
sLate. If you look on the exhibits Lhat have been suPplied bv staff and
upon staff's recommendation, that is an area that they feel should be
maintained in it,s natural state and it's always been our intent to keep it
that way. There are some significant trees- As you know, the City of
Chanhassen requires a tree survey of every tree that's I believe larger
than 6 inches and we have done that on this particular site' That area
along both sides of that road in aPProximately 4oo feet has significant
treei on both sides of lhe road and thaL's why that area is depicLed on the
preservation maP exhibit as a Preservation zone.
going to have any entrance mar kers or anvthing Iike
Terry Forbord: TO the contrary. Actual]y in the very northteest corner ' as
you wi]I see on the exhibiL on the overhead, there is actually a t^,lalker
i,ond which is a sedimentation pond that will be traPPing the storm water
runoff that comes inLo this. Eventually goes into the large DNR ureLland
and you can see it kind of there depicted as kind of a kidney shaped ]ittle
object there. Tha! is a pond on thaL side. The landscaPe Plan depicts
Iaidscaping all around that area. Now as you know when you're putting in
roads and you have a right-of-way and esPeciallv by entrances to
subdivisions, it,s very important that your sight Iines be established so
people at Lhat stop sign are turning, they can see some distance. so yes
Lhere wiLl be some landscaPing but a safety considerations are there so the
people ingressing and egressing wiII be able Lo see in a safe manner '
Batzli: So you're not going to have any
developmenL?
Terry Forbord: No, Lhat's n'ot true.
Batzli; Where are you going to put them?
entrance mar kers into this
Planning
August 7
commission Heet i ng
7997 - Page 23
Terry Forbord: The enLrance mar kers are on the ]andscape p.Lan. Theydepicted there.
for
car e
are
exarnple
of in
Olsen: It's up on the lransparency.
Terry Forbord: Rick, would you put the
Batz I i : Maybe
association in
I should ask it this raay.this development?
Iandscaping plan
Is there goi ng
p I ease?
be a homeowners
UP
to
Terry Forbord: No sir.
Batz]i: So will it be that LoL 23's responsibility to maintain theentrance monument and the randscaping on that corner or is that alr goinglo be on the right-of-way?
Terry Forbord: rt will not be in the right-of-way? what we have done inLhe past, even within this city and many other cities is that there is aIandscaping easerfient, a monument easement. often times a utility easementon Lhose particular lots Hhere there is monumentation. There is anagreement with the individuar who buys that home that they wirl maintainLhat in perpetuity. That's been done in this city as werl as every othercity that .we've had
Batzli: tJhen do we nc,rmal.Iy do that paul? Nhen would Ne reqdire that?
Krauss: Thc homeowners agreement?
Batzli: HeIl he said there,s not going Lothat Iandscaping and sign monuments, thingsA F'UD.
be one. But requireIike tliat get taken
Krauss: tlel], if it's a concern you can require that iL be set up at thisLime. rn the past bre've had problems with some. of these monuments thatincluded Iighting and backlit signage and stuff that would fall apart andthe homeowner didn't maintain it. I think Lundgren typicalry has gone to,what is common now which is a low or zero maintenance type of facility.sometimes a rock wall with brass lettering fixed to it. rt's a difficurtone on that particular lot Commissioner too. He want to have a lowmaintenance or no maintenance Iandscaping. The homeouner reasonably is notgoin9 to be maintaining it. The homeowner reasonably isn't going to thinkof thaL as being part of their property.
Batz]i: That's my concern is that you're going to have a development fu.LLof unhappy people because somebody's not 9oin9 to take care of it andthey're going to think that it's the City's responsibility.
Terry Forbord:
business for 22problem.
That has not been our problemyears, [.le've have done this the past , [^le 've been i n
we have.not had that
in
and
Batz]i: There's been that problem in other developments here. I'm notsaying Lundgren's is the problem. .I just suggesting that this has happened
L,ef or e .
Planning Commission l.leeti ng
Auguet 7, !991 - Page 24
Terry Forbor d: You're right.
think the basis for that is hott
buyer and the developer. Is it
ure don't have those problems.
It does happen Nith other developers. fis the agreement handled betueen the home
thought through beforehand. As I stated,
Batzli: Typically urhen you put this kind of restriction on the deed
they're buying, who has the right to enforce it?
Krauss: WeIl, it wouldn't be the first time. tle could arrange for the
City to be involved in the chain of title so that if the ProPertv h,asn't
being maintained we'd have the...to 9o back to the homeowner to require the
maintenance. tje'11 do it ourselves and assess the cost. That u,rould be a
possibility.
Batzli: I'd like to see something like that.
Terry Forbord: Hr . Chair:? l'1r . Pf laum , President of Lundgren Bros - is here
and he deals with these things himself so maybe he could better address
some of those questions.
peter Pf laurn: There's no easy anshrer. t^lhaL we do is there's an easement
on the properLy that in the event the homeowner doesn't take care of it,
have the right but not the obligation Lo come and take care of it. So
there is a protection from the homeowner if this Person is not doins it'
can come in and rescue the situalion.
we
uJe
BatzIi: Lu ndgr e n?
Peter Pf]aum: Lundgren, yeah. And Ne use that in those cases ulhere
there's not a homeourners association. If there's a homeowners association
we give them the right to do it. But like Terry said, we've never had a
problem but if we did, ue have the risht to come in there and take care of
it and then f j.gure out how to resolve it with the neighbors. Usually
you're not talking abouL a major item in terms of dollars-
Batzli: No, Lypically it's for an individual or group of individuals
inside the subdivision and you're right. But I guess I would feel more
comfortable. I have a.Iot of confidence in Lundgren but I think the Citv
might be here longer than Lundgren. I ulould Prefer that the CiLv have that
right.
Ahrensr t^Jhat is the sign going to ]ook like anyway? Is it going to be no
mai ntenance?
Krauss: I don'L believe we've gotten into the details yet.
BatzI i :
dr a i nage
8(f)?
Krauss: I believe the condition that's handling it is condition 9
The building
easement and
inspector's commenLs on the type of house and 5 foot
stuff Jo Ann. Is that handled in your condition
BatzIi:
things.
okay, so 8(f) plus t handles it because really they talk about 2
The type of house and then the 5 foot drainage. okay. I share
Planning
Auguet 7
Commission Meet i ng
799\ - Page 25
Ladd's concern. I r.rould like to see it demonstrated that there's kind ofno neL loss. That this is really top drawer and we're doing the rightthing. As far as the landscaping, I agree with (a) that I think we shouldput a couple in provided they're goi.ng to survive. (b) I think u,e can getrid of. (c), I real.Ly don't have something to protect the slope but thatdoesn't necessarily mean trees. Is that right Jo Ann?
OIsen: Right .
Batzli: Yeah. And then (e), I think as l.ong as they,re acting inaccordance with what ule're proposing in the new ordinance regarding ifthere is exisling trees, a minimum of 1 or. whatever the language ends up. Idon't know if r^re'ie going to pass it that they can delete uII thr"..Thev're credited t^rith existing trees over a certain caliper. r just thinkthat should be worked out depending on what we talk about later tonight. ragree there shouldn't be a berm. And as far as the uletlands, r think thereshor,rld be some kind of language in there that it should minimize impact onit from the standpoint of r guess ue don't want their grader running aroundthe entire wetlands" f don't know how we say that but I Lhink there shouldbe some protectiorr. As far as the during breeding season, it seems !o mewe alwavs do have that in there but r guess Terry raised an interestingpoint. It might be aII year round.
olsen: lJelr, iL usuarry is in Lhe spring when we mean it and when r.Je sayminimar disturbance, a Lot of times you can do lhat grading when lhe groundis still someuhat frozen and stuff so uhen you're fillins in a portion of atretland you're really not, that,s the ]east impact. It's lhe harderground. That's what we intended.
Erhart; ...Item 3 that you're discussing dealsNot the extent of granding.solely with the timing.
Olsen: Right. The timing. That's what I mean.
Batzl i : I 'm done now .
Olsen: If I could, I did go through the, you're right- The actual netdensity is 2.1 wiLhout the wetlands. For some reason I had thaL done andanother one got in there. So r^,hat was in there is the net lots and it hadnot removed Lhe wetland. So if you remove aII the wetlands, 8.3 acres,it's 2.1 units per acre. Thanks for catching that.
Emmings: And our city average is 1.7?
Olsen: That was shown in the Comp Plan.
Rick Sathre | ...37 IoLs on 22 acres.
Olsen: Uhat I did is I had added upstleeLs and Lhen whaL I did was just
and f came up with 77,7 acres-
alL the
r emove
lot areas.the wetland
Had removed the
areas from thaL
Rick Sathre: Anddensity is 1 .7.
roads. But if you just take out the wetlands, then the
Planning
Augus! 7
Commission Heeti ng
t997 - Pase 26
Emmi ngs: t]e take out both, tJhen t^re say net, we take out both. Jeff?
Farmakes: f'm going to 6tart out uith some stuff just in general that I
have que:,tions on that we didn't cover in Lhe previous meeting. I iust
can't find in here in aII this PaPerwork. I'm going Lo start out with this
tree preservation. Go to Exhibit H that shows some of the trees. It's on
this sheet here. The road that comes up in the northwest corner thaL vou
said thal >'ou chahged the angle so it wasn't going straight into the road-
The one ue're taLking about the Iight shining into the homeowners home - I'm'
Looking at how that relates to the Lrees that are in existence there. I
can see that whoever did the Plotting on this thing uras trying to get a lot
out of wha! is now Lot 14. Buildable lot there in the corner. The
southr^,est corner of LoL 14. tJas I guess trying Lo get a minimum building
Iot in there. I'm wondering are there any other ways Lo run that road
through there so you wouldn't have to slice through?
olser,: tne did talk
Farma kes :
east ?
So thaL
about
would
runnl ng
curve it
it
off
rig,ht like adjacent to the Netland.
to the east? A litLle more Lo the
O]sen: Exactly. Then once you get the building pad in there, you'd be
losing Lhenr so He weren,t really, there really was no h,ay to get around it
even if you did move it a1l the wav over because !hen, Iike I said, with
the building pad. AIso the ponding area that's in that northwest corner,
they're going to be dredging that out and making it deeper. That's going
to be removing some of Lhe poplars and stuff there Loo so it is kind of
geLting hit from aII angles-
Farmakes: I guess I'l.I get into this Lot 14
seems that the stand that's there essentially
through the road or that holdi.ng Pond or Lot
In awiII
14.
few minutes here. It
be eliminated e i ther
Cor r ect?
Krauss: No - There r..r i I I be some trees removed . trhat you have is a
trade-off. If there's 6 potential and alternative for the road to come out
in another location onto the adjacent proPerty, that would be the onlv way
to do that but there's net environmental imPact damage on that site to
aicomplish it. If the road's going !o connect there at aII, your other
alternative is to come through the C]ass A wetland and t"le've been trying to
keep some, everybody's been trying to stay out of that- t^lhat thev did is
sort of split the difference and they've got trees located on either side
of the r"oad. Significant trees located on either side of the road and as
the road comes through Lhere at a diagonal , you should still have
considerable tree massing. I don't know where you want to pick out the
kind of lrees thaL are in there. f can't read it.
Rick Sathre: Hr. Chairman, I'm Rick Sathre from Sathre-Berquist. The -earlier plan that some of you sab, Iast time we were here, the road was
shifted a little bit farther east througl-..*-his area right in here. I chose
fjnally Lhis alternative after looking at abouL 3 or 4 others because this
allowed u. to save some 16 to 3o inch oaks right in this area that are west lof the existing Ortenbla! driveway. AIso saving some significant trees,
although they aren't oaks on Lhe r,rest side of the road. Picking thisparticular alignment gave us trees on both sides whereas if we pushed it
PIannin3
Augu3t 7
Commission Meeti ng
1997 - Page 27
farther r.,est or east we lost everything on one side or the other - This
seems to protect the largest trees the best.
Farmakes: [.Jas one of those options when you went to the east, there's sortof a natural gap between those turo clumps of trees Bhere you move itfarLher to the east so it's on the east side of where those eaks are you
urould nip some of that wetland up in Lhe norlhu,est corner?
Rick 9athre: Here's the exi.sting drive*ay. That's where that openi.ng is?
Farmakes: t^le]I yeah. ft comes at a different angle but.
Rick 9athre: Okay. t^ielL it isn't wide enough for theouL here, then r^re'd fill into the Class A wetland.
road so if we came
Farmakes: But you could angle itminimize the loss of those Lrees?than t l-r: present direction of the
and fiII in that one corner up there toIf the angJ.e was this direction rather
r oad?
Rick sathre: rf we moved the entrance farther east and did impact ther.retland, vou'd stiII have, it's back here urhere the trees are significant.So jusL moving the entrance east didn,t help necessarily.
Olsen: I think he's talking.
Ricli Sathre: Maybe I don't understand.
Terry Forbc,rd: Mr. Chair, Terry Forbord of Lundgren Bros.. I know whenyou'r: looking at one dimension on a map, even for those of us who do thisdav in and dav ou!, it's verv difficul.t to try to understand the dynamicsof moving something even one foot east or west. The other thing that oneneeds to tafie into perspective when they're just rooking a! these lines andwonde:'ing, is this r^rhere it's going Lo be is something called gradinglimits. Okay, so when you're looking at those ]ines, that isn't the onlyarea that will be impacted. The grading limits that it Lakes Lo make iLall fit tcgether and the engineer can probably expJ.ain Lhis from a City,sperspecLive, the gradins limits can change depending on where you put theroad. If we move that road further to the east, the impact wouldn,t just
be on urhat you see in that one dimension because you may have to grade
5O-6O feet each direction beyond the right-of-way in order just to make itwork because of Lhe topography. So uhen we selected, Iike Rick said and Ithjrrk he was fairly modest when he said we've looked at three differentconcepts because we worked with the City staff seeing their concepts andthen our concepts and ule went back and forth. Got the wetland people
involved. f mean every expert that uras available got involved in lhedesign of Lhese sensitive areas and the roads. But we also had to takeinto effect the grading Iimits of the right-of-ulay. How far on both sidesof Lhe road were we going to have to cut dirt or move dirt. The spot thatyou see right now, right where it is today has the absolute minimal impactof any alternative for Lhat particular location. tlhether it be trees,uretlands, wi IdI ife, uhaLever.
Farma kes: Paul, did
abou t?
you look al these oLher proposals that they're talking
PIanni ng
August 7
Commission Heet i n9
7997 * Page 2e
!,Je in fact sat around a table sketching out a variety of things at
meetings, yeah.
Farnrakes: okay, becai-,rse as far as the grading goes, the angle that
talking about really relates to Lot 14 aird r^rhether or not there is
!4. The ang]e isn't that much different than the present road that
there now. It's : Iightly more to the east. I'm not an engineer.
build roads.
KTauss:
severa I
Olsen: Do you
bl ing the road
abouL bringing
I'ma Lot
goes
I don'tIN
wan! me to show what I think you're talking
or do you uJant to come over and do it? But
the road through here instead?
about is toyou're tal king
Farmakes:
wet I a nci .
tlell just either that or angling it uP and nipping a bit of the
olsen: And then what you're saying is thaL they would lose Lot 14'
Farmakes: I'lI set into discussing Lot 14 in a minute. But it t'rould be
Lot 14, that is correct.. I think we've maybe covered that enough. Hy
concern is that rnaybe when this does come before the City Council that
that's looked at. I'd Iike to touch quickly on this road issue. On page
20. Hae the safeLy, has this come before the Safety Commission at all or
have they commented on any of this?
Olsen: l.J e goL comments back from the Building Inspector and then also from
lhe Fire MarshalI. They had no comments specifically.
Farmakes: You don't see this, this isn't really a thru
It's just internal traffic and you feel that this uould
sLreet that this would be a safe issue?
Batzli: I don't think people would use them
would go onto the street, onto the sidewalk,
a thing.
thoush. I don't think
back onto the sideual k
street of any kind.
be, without a
people
kind of
olsen: tle]l that's why we're doing the compromise to try it. To try and
see if we can because it really was a difficult situation because oe really
wanted to save Lhe wetlands and the trees buL also Provide the closed
street. So we're comfortable that the transition tlould work.
Farmakes: The sidewalk would be 6 feet on both sides?
Olsen: No , just side.
Farma kes: Uhich
one
side would lhis be? The north side?
OLsen: t^re urere proposing that it be on
r^:here people would be wanting to walk.
the weLland side. That's mostly
o.l.sen;just a
If ue
Iittle
ma ke
r amP
iL like an easy transition. ].Je kind of xere thinking
up, ramp down. . .
Planning
August 7
Commission Heet i ng
799! - Page 29
Batzli: I juct think of Iike in Eden Prairie. A
people r,r:Iking dor.rn the street and the sideuralk's
[: n<,r.r if they'c.l use it.
lot of times
r ight there .
you seeI don't
Olsen: You wanL to provide it just in case.
Krauss: l"Je may be gui ILy of tryi ng to be over creative on this but r,reclearly u:anted to be sensitive to not plowing into, we needed to protect
the r.retland. l^Je didn't wanL to plow into the hill with the oaks on it andthere's only so much room to put the road and then r,re Iooked at revisingour standards which Lhe PUD ordinance encourages you to do. But we'rebeing asked to break some new ground here and there's a Iimit to how fa'rwe're comfortable in going and we deve.Ioped this compromise out of it.It's clear to me in Looking at planning literaLure from around the countrylhat a ]ot of places are looking at reducing right-of-way and streeL widthfor Llre eame reasons that ure're considering it here tonight. t,hat's noLclear to.rne is Lhe standard that we should use and I think the engineeringdeparLment has indicated that they're going to check with other communitiesand see r.Lhat they're going with. You know it takes a uhile for theordinances to catch up with what some of other communities are doing andr.re'd .l i ke t-o s€e Hhat is safe. t^le do have a tight curve here compoundingthe narrourness of the street. t^ie think it can be done safely or else.ue
wouldrr 't propose it. But we wanted to have all the safeguardq we couldbuilt into this and the sidewalk was part of that.
Farrnakes; If the sider,ralk was deleted, did you take that intoconsideration when you were Iooking at that? In other words would you
approve it or do you have real safety concerns if that.was deleted?
Krauss: 1^,e'd really have to take a look at this. I,lI be honest uith you
Commissioner Farmakes. This is something that hre had a conference ca.LIurith lhe City Manager and ourselves sitting around a conference table Iate
lJednesday afternoon with the developer's engineer trying to work out
sorneLhing that we could agree on that met the goals that r,re felt we neededto rreet. t^Jhat you see in front of you is the net result of that-
Farrnakes: I'm going to reserve an opinion on thaL until we get furtherinformation on it. The next thing I want to touch on is the lots. 1've
been reaIIy impressed with Lundgren development and their developmenLs. Ithirrk they've done a really nice job. Signage, landscaping, the wholething. I do have some concerns that again when this goes to City Councilthat they're really Looking at brhat this really i.s. Particularly in these
areas rahere they shot^r the wetland. Often it's Lhe case in the t^retland you
see a huge lot there and really it's not quite so huge when it comes timeto build on it. In Iooking at Lots 14-5, if you look r{here the buildingpads are and you superimpose where lhe wetland is, and that's Exhibit C andE, if you put lhose two together, it would seem Lo me and then look at the
square footage Lhat is on page 15 on the staff report her.e and look at
those listings, they look pretty substantial when you look at lot area but
r.rhen you subl-ract the wetland and you subtract the wetLand setback and you
subtract the front setback on the lot, these lots are half or more in somecases. And then compare lhem against Lots 7,2,3- The existing home on3. Evc-n 14, 15, 16. These Iots aren't suffering a lot of loss throughuetland habitaL or lhey're pretty much aIl buildable. I! concerns me that
Planning
August 7
Commission Heet i n9
t99t - Page 30
5 thru !4 are so different, I undersland that PUD, that's what goes on but
I think that Lhese figures are a bit deceptive. That we should dlso have
uhaL rea] ly net buildable square fooLage of that lot is when they're
compar j.n3 them against the other loLs that are there because I think they
look far different Lhan what's on here. The other lots that I have concern
about would be Lot 13, Lot 12, and Lot 10. AIso those IoLs are having a
fair anrount of loss due to the proposal I'm also concerned about 7 and 6.
The access on Lhe road. You said there's somebody over there Lhat wants
the thru street through there. Is that the Positioning of that sLreet or
where it's proposed?
O]sen: No. Like I said, in just our first shot at thaL we've looked at
that they already do have access on Pot"rers BIvd. that they could bring in
their own privale drive and there's some slope and toPography there and
trees that trouId be removed.
Farmakeg: It seems au.lfuLly narrow there. They'd either have to share a
Iot or puL then both of them right together. I'm concerned in ParLicular
about Lot 14. I sti]l feel tha!, typographical considerations aside, that
the reason that that road's going Lhrough so that buildins pad on 14 and
it's just the corner there. I guess considering looking at these homes and
the density of these homes, if you Iook at them on any Part of the lower
Ievel or the south part, if lhere's houses close together in the
arrangement for the typographical area, there's not more than 3 or 4 of
them in a rou, and then they change angle. tlhen I look at 5 thru 14'
they're sorl of all on a crescent. They're all, because of the
typographical positioning aIl in a row. They seem awfull'y close together
Lo me cc$pared to lhe rest of the develoPment and I also understand Lhat a
PUD, taking use and consideration of the land tha! that's what you do
sornetimes. I'd like to see feuer homes in betHeen there. Beth,een 5 and
74. In particular 14. If you eliminate 14 and move those aPart a little
bit, you can maybe get those a Iittle bit more to conform. I don't knour
about the economics of that but to me that's a glaring standout lhere'
t^,lhen we talked about, to go onLo the next subject, uhen we talked a bit
about the improvement of the wetland. I still have concerns about finding
out information about how the weLland that's on the Iower half of this
development is affected. The drainage ditch at one time, it's now filled
up, you guessed it being about 12 inches deeP at the time it drained ouL
the property. Is that correct? So it takes very Iittle to drain that
level dotrn to the next wetland, is that correct?
Frank Svoboda: The ditch as it is today is about 5 inches shal.Iower than
it was originally. There's about 6 inches of sediment on the bottom.That's probably about 12 to 18 inches.
Farmakes: okay, but at this point that's more of a, it's not draining outright nou into the lower, it's filled in? The drainage area. Has there
been any discussion as !o r^lhat, if anyLhing that Lhey talked hypoLhetically
about putti ng a crop in- I'm sure the DNR isn't going to allow that. As
far as improvement. If they approved Lhe !4ater level on this Lhing, hour is
thaL gcing to affect the wetland and the next slope down which is on the
southeasL of this property? Besides the road or Lake Lucy Road, are Lheygoing to be doing anything to change the nutrients in this issue that's
already Lhere? Particularly if fhis land has already been cropped. There
Planning
August 7
Comnrission Heet i ng
1991 - Page 31
is :.ubsrtential anrounts of nutrients there. How j.s that going to affect the
Loi,rer ure'. land and in raising that water Level , how that drains? Is thatg<,irrg tc tairc the nutrients and lhe problems from there and put it down tothe next one? Is Lhere someLhiig that can done about that? And if so,what urc,ulC the DNR al]ow us to do? Hy comments then, to f i.nish up on going
back to page 2L. I would defer Lo the City on that as far as blocks vieur.That's an aesthetic issue. This is a considerable distance from thehighway. I've seen the other development's homes. They look pretty goodfrom the back. f guess I don't have as much concern about the blocking ofLhe view. It urill take a Iong time for those trees to get up to that staLebut I still would like to see some landscaping. Survivability is an issue.I'd like to hear from the City on whether or not that,s a confirm on that.
Krauss: on boulevard trees along Lake Lucy?
Farmakes: That's correct. That'd be line (a). lhey would Like thatdeleted and next to i!, the thing Terry handed out here. Comments thaLhere, iL sa>,s blocks view and low survivabitity.say
Krauss: tje have asked the street superintendent, urho admittedly isn't alandscape expert but who's familiar xith what grows in his rights-of-way totake a look at that when he was looking at that drainage issue and hebelieved t.hat it was u:ide enough to support some boulevard trees. He's gota lot of intuitive feel for these things and r sort of trust his opinion.Nhat w: r.:ere talking about though is exactly what Commissioner,s Conradand Erhart mentioned which is lhe bouLevard trees with deciduous treesthrough there. Basically jusL to break it up a little biL.
Farmakes: I'd like to see that stay in then, unless there's legitimateinforrnation backing that up that we can't put anyLhing in there becauseit's no', going to live. It would be a waste of money. On (b), as far asLhe Iandscaping of Lhe rear lots adjacent to Class A wetlands, I'd stillIike to see that remain but r also understand that the sellability of thesetypes of homes, these people are going to ulant to Iook out onto Lhe lake.They're going to want Lo look out on the wetland. I guess as you saidbefore, if there's enough there t.o break it up.
Olsen: Yeah, that was our intention. I.t wasn't going to be a solidscreen. Just a Iittle.
Farmakes: So maybe a definition of what that is. Perhaps something thaLis corr':promiseable there. I'd like to see also ( e ) stay in there. I don'tthink that's excessive. However, since that's not on the books, perhaps
again that's someLhing up for discussion. A Iandscape berm and so on, Iguess if, again I defer to the CiLy's opinion there on whether or not the
Iandscape only is going to affect that particularly in the winter. As faras line 3, again I'd like to hear from the DNR on that.. I'm not a wiLdlifeexpert and what constitutes a breeding season and how thal wiII affect. I'dlike to get their opinion on that. That's the end of my commehts.
Emmings: Thanks Jeff. Joan.
Planning Commission Heeti n9
August 7, 199L - Page 32
Ahrens; I'd like to f irst- comment on Terry's commenLs and then I had somegeneral comments. As far as the 26 fooL width of the street goes, I think
Lhat's fine and I think putting in a s.i.der.ra]k is, I don'! uranL to exPose
the CiLy to any .Iiability here by not putting in a sidewalk but r don't
think people use them. I know thaL Lhey'd use them if they were only on it
for a short time but I think it would look nice. The landscaPing. Under(a), the landscaping along Lake Lucy Road. I guess my only concern there
is noL to block the view of the wetland for everybody else. I don'L know
hJhat you had in mind there as far as what kind of landscaPing goes but
there's other people Lhat Iook at that u,etland besides the PeoPle who are
going to live in it and I think that shouldn'L be blocked from the road-
(b), I have no opinion about thaL. I'Il defer to the Citv on that. (c)'
I guess my understanding is that your intent there was to stabilize the
land next to the wetland. That's t^lhy you uanted some landscaping - Is thaL
true?
olsen: Right. There's some sPecial grasses and stuff Iike MnDot wiII use
and ue were also going Lo look at if it is possible for like birch or
willow but again it's something that, it's maybe iust one- But that
slope's pretty steep so that's something we'II be working on but at least
the vegeLation. Thick growth vegetation. ue just want to see uhat they're
proposing and make sure that that r^ras going to be adequate. That wouldn't
er ode .
Ahrens: Okav, (e). tle've been talking abouL Lhis requirement
time now, months and we all think it's a greaL idea and I don'
don't start here when are t,le going to start? I don'L see that
of a burden for Lundgren. And (f), t'm biased on this because
Iitt]e house up there across the street from this.
Emminss: NeIl how does the homeowner feel? Let's hear ir.
tonight that the
hras. Right?
for some
t know , if we
as too big
that's my
this l ip
Ahrens: tJeII first of aI1,
road has been moved east of
I've heard Iots of comments
where iL's original Iocation
Rick Sathre: The angLe coming
here- The intersection hasn't
Ahrens: But on your Exhibit, on your
the old road alignment as comPared Lo
alignment and then new road alignment
al ignment .
sheet S7, it shot^rs the existence of
the exisLence of the new road
is acLually west of the old road
in has been coc ked
been moved farther so it's just
easL, no.
Ri.ck Salhre: The absolute touchdouln point on Lake Lucy Road moves very
slightly west because the addiLional proposal showed a slope going acLually
into the Class A wetland a little bit. l^le shifted it over iust enough to
avoid that. I think you're talking about this one aren't you?
Ahrens: Right.
Rick Sathre: The initial proposal had the slope coming down off of the
road right-of-uray into the very corner of the Class A wetland. tle shifted
the road from, the curve ]ine from here over to there to geL a little
farther away and then the angle coming in, you can see. I don't know if
Planning
August 7
commission Meet i ng
L991 - Page 33
you can understand this graphic. It's very hard but lhe cross hatchedIines represent where Lhe road was a month ago in our planning,- This dark
l irre is the newer road. New idea for the road and f guess what you seeIooking at it, sLudying it, a couple things are different about it but oneof them is that the headlights coming out the road h,ou]d be pointed
easterly until you got closer Lo the road.
Ahrens: Okay, but once it's at the road, I mean I can tell what,s west andeasL here and once you're at the road where the cars are stopped and readyto go out onto Lake Lucy Road, it's actually further uJest than it wasbefor e -
Rick Sat hre:farther west.
Yeah, the cars would actually stop probably 15 or 20 feet
Ahrens: And if you look on sheet *5, uhere
The OrLenblat drivesray, Lhat's considerablyroad is.
the exist j.ng driveway is now.east of r"rhere your proposed
Rick Sathre: Jo Ann, can I use your market for a moment? I'Il draw thatdriveway on here,
Ahrens: Do you have
Rick Sathre: That's
Ahr ens: Right - Tree
Rick 9athre: It Nas
Ahrens: Risht .
your own
the tree
survey
up here
Exhibit #6 because it's on lhere al.ready?
survey map?
and vegetation.
a while ago. This one. Is this Lhe one?
Rick sathre: This is the existing driveway location. That would be aboutat the eastern edge of the permanent road.
Ahrens: Right. The eastern corner would be more accurate. And you know,Terry's a very persuasive person and I can see that he persuaded mosL ofthe commission here that a berm isn'L needed there but I'd invite any ofyou to back into that driveteay at night and point your headlights out andyou'II see that this goes directly into our backdoor. That's not anaccurate depiction of where the house is compared to r.rhere the road isgoing to be. And lhere's a big difference for us living there to have adirt driveway there than Lo have a paved road with all these houses. Ithink there's been landscaping, as far as evergreens go that, we pLanted 3
evergreens there several years ago r.rhich was a big mistake because it'sreal windy and real sunny there and I'd like to talk to your landscapearchitects and see what Lhey have to say about that but evergreens aren'tgoing !o make it there. So I think there should be a berm and I encouragethe berm, that the City require that a berm be put in there and Iandscaped.
As far as the removal of the trees go in that'roadhray too, are those going
to be r ep I aced?
Emmings: The question is whetherthe trees that are removed to put or not there's
the road in on
going to
Lhe Hest
be replacement of
side.
Planning
August 7
Commiss.,-on Meet i ng
f997 - Page 34
Ol.serr: ThaL was parL of aII Lhe additional landscaping that b,e urererequesting. Specifically on that site or that Iocation we have discussed
relandscaping like the ponding area. Li'ke agai.n righ! now it's kind of an
indentation with some poplars. To have some of Lhat vegetation back but asfar as replacemenL in that locaLion, ue have not specif icall.y talked about
that .
Ahrens; I liked Jeff 's comment about movi.ng the road further east if that
could be done at all- Closer to the actual alignment of the existing
driveway. Ho!"lever, again even if it was aligned closei to the existing
driveway, there would sLilL be a problem with the impact on our lot. It's
a bis impact there and I don't knoru if Lundgren has ever gone out there at
night and done what I suggested. Shourn your headlights up there. Hoslly
because it's a hill across the street and I don'L knou what the grade is.
t^lhat's the grade going to be?
FoIch; I don't recall off hand.
Rick SaLhre: The road grade
showed a 5z sLope coming- down
as you get risht to the road
actuall),, as you approach the
Like the driveway is now.
comes down to a Iow point... I believe we
toward Lake Lucy Road but then we level off
so you don't slide out onto the road. You'd
road you geL pretty flat at Lake Lucy Road.
Ahrens: r'm going to move off of that point. I could 9o on for a long
time about that. t^lhen do you PIan on raising the level of Lhe wetland 2
f eet? l.Jhen r.rould that be done? Right away or uould that be somethi ng that r-1
would bc done down the road? I
Terry For bor d :
this time?
Mr. chairman, would you Iike me to address Lhat question at
Emrnings: I'm sorry. If she asks you a question, go ahead and answer it.
Ter'i.y Foi-bord: Hr. Chair, members of the Planning Commission, my name is
Terry Forbord with Lundgren Bros. The precise time table of when that
would occur is unknown at this time. A Iot of that r.rill depend on when the
final approva.Ls come from the city. l^lhen the development agreements areprepared. t^lhen the funding is available and if ule are in a construction
season or if we are not in a construction season. So there's obviously a
Iot of factors that none of us know at this exact time when Lhat would
happen. So I can't give you a date when it would occur -
Ahrens: The reason I'm asking is because I'd like to know what the, ifraise the level of the wetland it's going to increase the circumferencethe wetland and how does that impact on Lhe setback that's shown here?
Does the setback get pushed?
you
of
Terry Forbord: Mr. Chair, the chart that is shourn and it has beensubmitted to you as a preservation zone and an upland wetland setback zonesare uLilizing the neu ordinary high water mark thAt will be established as
a result of the raising.
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i n9
1997 - Page 35
Emmings: Okay, so aII of the figures and all the drawings you've presented
to us already have in place the wetland being 2 feet higher Lhan itpresently is?
Terry Forbord: Yes sir
Rick Sathre: The line that's on the drawing as the edse of the wetlandisn'L the uater surface. It's actually where the vegetation changes fromwetland to upland. So it's generally that ]ine is up, I,d say theelevation is probably around 979.
Emmings: Now waj.t a minute. Now you're saying something different. '
Rick Sathre: I'm saying something different than whaL Terry did. t^te,reproposing to raise the water surface fron 974.5 to 976.5.
Emmings: Okay, and what's drawn on here?
Rick sathre: That line is actualry uhere the vegetation changes out on theground trhich is a line that's actually way up the slope. It varies inheight because the vegetation doesn't follow the contour. But that line issay 797.
Emmings: So everyplace that }ine is higher?
Rick sathre: rt's alurays hisher than the water level is now or urould be-Much hi gher
oLsen: And we did discuss this and we did have them take that into accountwith the buffer. If it's a 10 foot buffer it'd be coming from the heightor the edge of the water afLer i.t's raised Z feeL. So it does reflecteverything being pushed out.
Emmings: tlell no, that's not what he,s saying. He,s saying Lhe change inthe vegetation from aquatic to terrestr'ial to day. That's what he juit
said-
Rick Sathre: I can help you. I'II try to help you. I don't think I havea graphic. These probably aren't the same scale. t"tell they're fairlyclose enough.
Erhart: Rick? To ask a quick question. Is that the change in vegetation
today or as proposed?
Rick Sathre: No- The water surface in the wetland right now, and this isan approximation. This is the water right non. Something Iike that. Ifthe DNR would allow us to, we're proposing to raise that so, whoops that's
noL going Lo work. We r^rould be creating a neh, water surface Lhat would
Look, Lhis is going to be hard. Maybe you can't see al] of them'. Can you?
It would spread out a litt1e bit farLher than it is now but the line on thEwetland map, the line that r.Je measure from is what Braun Intertec locatedon Lhe ground as Lhe vegetation line and that's uphill still farther - Onthe western shore isn't that different because the slopes are steeper buton the east side, I know the weLland line right nour is something like that
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
1997 - Page 36
so it'e upland quite a bit and it comes righL through between the tJal kerPond. fn general there's three different lines
Emmi ngs: Okay thanks.
Olsen: The green line is going to
that's what hle asked for the planspushed. t^Jhen the water is raised,
out noH.
be pushed out though and I thought
to reflect. That ulhen everything isthe vegetation is aLso going to be going
Rick Sathre:
I ittle biL .
I think the reed canary grass might migrate up the hiLl a
O]sen: [,Je can ulor k on Lhat one,
Ahrens: So what are you going to do about that one?
O1sen: t^lell, what He want to have reflected is, the water level's going to
be raised up 2 feet. If that's apProved, thal's done. Then you'll have,
we'lI determine the edge of the wetland and wherever that is and thaL's not
necessarily where the water is. Actual waLer edge is but then we'II be
taking the buffer from that. So that's what we want to have because if you
raise the water, then that also pushes out the emergent vegeLation. The
wetland vegetation which actually determines the edge of the wetland so
it's something we've got to come to a conclusion actually tlhere that is and
then from where lhe edge of that r,Jet]and is and then that buffer stripgoing. So I don't know Lhat it's much different from where it's at...
Batzli: So as a condition for example Jo Ann, let's say I Hant to add an
amendment that we're going to pound in monuments or markers. Since we
don't know where the vegetation is going to migrate uP to, how do we know
what our 10 or 25 foot buffer strip?
Ahrens: AIso for the easements, Legal description.
Emmings: You'II end up measuring it from the other side...
Batzli: tle]l what would you like us to do is the question.
Krauss: t^le're dealing with a DNR wetland where they establish
edge and OHtl. tle're going to know what that OHW's 9oin9 to be
Ahrens: At some point in time though.
a uret Ia nd
Krauss: No. [,le're going to know thaL exactly. ] don't know if this wasyour earlier question. In terms of urhen this would happen. This would
happen as part of the development. IL'd be a condition of it and it would
occur at whatever time development occurs. This fall or next spriqg orwhatever. So Hhat we're going to do and what we have done is regulated the
setbacks relative to the new elevated water Iine. From the expanded
r.retland the setbacks would be measured from there. NoN it's true that the
wetland vegetation would migrate uphiII from Lhere and we don't know to
tahat extent but we have an expertation Lhat I'm pretty sure it's going to
PIanni ng
Augusl 7
Commission Meet i ng
799f - Page 37
wirrd up in that additional conservation strip that we're providing beyondthe wet.Land.
Ahrens; How is that going to inipact the wetland to the south? t hen you
raise the water level.
Krauss: The outlet, the outflow and I guess f'd defer somewhat to the CityEngineer or the applicant, but the...flow leaving this water body should beno different pos! development than it is today. That's what we try !ojuggle so that ure're not inducing any waler flows or anything else that,sgoing to upset the balance dounstream. By the h,ay, this thing flows in twodirections. It's kind of ureird. fhe flow.splits somehow. There,s anoutLet underneath Lake Lucy Road.
Emmings: But that's being shut off. To my understanding.
Krauss: l.le're still doing some final talking on that. rn fact whether ornoL you close off one entirely or just the elevation on both of them andlet it continue f lowing .in two directions tike i.t is now is going to be,ue're going to ask the DNR that buL r think our rast discussion on it wasthat we should probably raise both of them and have it continue to flou inboth directions.
Emmi ngs: Alright.
O]sen; t"Je're also trying to assure Lhat Nater isn't totally cut off fromlhat wetland to the south either. l,,le want to stilr have water entering sothat's L,ein9 provided for too.
Ahrens: There was some
remember where it is butpeople who Iive in thisbut they suggested Lhat
across the road. Ihere
goi ng to be?
discussion in here, in your staff report. f can'tconcerning use of the neighborhood parks by thedevelopment. I don't know where I read it in herekids wi.Il be using the curry Farms Park which iswiII be kind of a crosswalk or something. Is lhat
O]sen: That was in the Park and Rec memodiscussion. ft was just something that.I
They were commenting on that they would be
would want that to be provided for. They
recommendation.
from Todd Hoffman and theirthink they're recommending.
Iooking at. Also that theydidn't make it a specific
Ahrens: I know it's not part of this, part of your recommendations but I
Has just curious about that. Are the locations of the lot in the PUDproposal differen! from lhe location of the lots in subdivision proposa).?
Krauss: Hor4 do you mean? [,le've never formally reviewed a subdivision.
Ahrens: Uel I Lhe one thaL
the one
hJe sahJ bef or e .
Krauss:
Ahrens:
You mean that came
c I uster ed
in two uree ks ago?
anythi n9?Yeah. Are t hese more oT
Planning
August 7
Comnrission Meet i ng
1997 - Page 38
Krauss: NeII see Lhat was just an earlier version of the PUD concept.
That basically was a PUD plan that was being presenLed Lo you 2 ueeks ago.
This plan is simply a refinement of Lhat. The one you saw 2 weeks ago was
not one that was designed to come in under normal RSF sLandards.
Oise r r..-,aC the reduced front yard setbacks. Reduced right-of-way.
Ahrens: My last question, is Lundgren or Lhe City going to do any
community education for Lhese people who Iive along a wetland? Do
don'ts on living nex! to a uretland and what they're suPPosed to do
is there anything the City can do about that?
's and
. f mean -1
olsen: tJe didn't again discuss anything sPecific urith this Project but in
general , with whal had happened in the Past, tle tal ked about trying to use
our newsletter to educaLe the public that those are wetlands and they are
protectirrg what you can and cannot do. t^le have done that in the Past and f
don't know thaL it's been very successful .
Ahrens: You've done it in the Past?
Olsen: t^io've had some in the newsPaPer articles and it's never been
anylhing. rt wasn't in the newsletter yet. tJe haven't discussed anything
specifically educating residents of this new subdivision.
Krauss: ...too that under the surface water utility Program which is
kicking in, ule've got an article coming out in this newsletter. There
be periodic. - -to everybody in the city. Those kinds of educational
materials and programs are part and Parcel of that Project.
now
r^riII
Ahrens: I don't have anything e1se.
Emmings: I do. I don't really, it's hard to know where to starL here.
There are so many issues. It almost leaves me to the conclusion that this
hasn't been uorked on to Lhe point ulhere ue're ready to take action on it
but the one thing, a lot of the comments that have been made strike me as
being comments that relate to the fact that r^re're still looking aL this in
:]i.riofuJaySaSifit'sareguIarsing].efamilysubdivisionasoPPosedto
a PUD. t^I,:'ve kind of got our , this is kind of new for us and I think in a
Iot of Nays we've goL the anchor of our boat stuck over in tne s i r',-:..--
family subdivision and it's hard to get the anchor out. But Hhen I look at -it overall, when I look aL lhe fact that we're preserving 412 of this as
open space, I think this probably is exactly what ure're trying or should be
trying !o do under the PUD ordinance. I think iL is rishtly done as a
PUD but I keep getting hung up. I u,as looking, as an example at Block 1,
Lot 13 which is advertised as a lot wiLh 27,5OO square feet. A lot width
of 92 feet. A lot depth of 3O3 feet and that lot depth of 3O3 feet then,you look at Hhat the wetland 'p]us the buffer eats us, the depth droPs to '"1
12o feet and the area drops Lo something -iust over 11,ooo. But that's
urhere I think again my anchor's stuck bac,. in the single family subdlvision
and I don't think ure ought to be looking .; it that hray. t,e've talked
about the comments that were made abouL houses. There being too many lots
with hcuses appearing too close together, I think that one of the Lhings
Ne were trying to do in the PUD was to clusler. Get Lhe houses togeLher so
we do leave bigger areas of open space and I think this plan does lhat.
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
1991 ' Page 39
But I'rn not sure. And I'm trying to think about this without bringing
along aII that baggage from the single family subdivision ordinance thaLue're so used Lo working with because this is very new for us. And I guess
to some extent I'm thinking by virtue of the facL that the staff
and Lundgren have worked on this together that the staff has beenrepresenting our position in reaching those goals. The goals of the PUO interms of clustering and getting other amenities and particularly open spacein exchange for relaxing a lot of the requirements of the subdivisionordinance. So the bottom line is, I think I support this and I think itshould be moved aLong to City Council wiLh those kinds of reservations.I've got a fer^r other more specific comments. tlith regard to the bufferzone, buffer zone I think is an excel.lent idea. I'm not sure it's bis
enough in some places and I don't knou if I like 10 feet but nevertheless,I don't quite undersLand whaL's in the buffer zone. I hear that it can, asa ]andowner, if I wan! to put a tree in there, can I go back and plant atree in there?
OIsenr Yes .
Alright.
and cut it
Emmi ngs :
i n there
If there's a
ou t?
tree in there that I don't like, can I go
Krauss: If it's not, yes. You could. If it's not in one of. thosedesignaLed tree preservation areas, yes- It'd be the homeowner's
per r ogeit i ve ,
Emmings: But he can't mora right? He could plant wildfLowers in there ifhe r":anLed to I suppose. I don't quiLe understand, I don't know how thelandowners are going to know what Lhe hell they can do or not do in thatbuffer z,rne and I alnrost feel like we ought to give them some direction.aybe we need a def i.nition in our ordinance about what a buffer zone is andwhat folks can do but that isn't provided here and I think it's kind of anebulours thing. The second concern of mine with regard to the buffer zoneis that it's got Lo be marked in backyard in a visible way. A person oughtto be able to walk in the backyard, anybody ought to be able to walk inthaL backyard and see a marker where that zone starts. And it shouldn't bea pipe irr the ground that's flush with the ground that you have to findb,ith a metal detector. It's got to be something that you can jusL walk inthere ancl see. That's the only way He'Il ever have any hope of policing
that in any Hay it seems to me.
Olsen: t^ie've discussed that and those markers are, sometimes they do get
covered ulith the vegetation. They can be moved or removed. l^le've
discussed what kind of markers those would have to be. Concrete. That's
hou ue came to that post is that Lhat's someLhing. Yeah, it's not visiblebut it's something that will always be there - It can't be moved and you
can always find it.
Emminss: I Lhink it ought to be visible. I think iL's got to be visibLe.
BatzIi: PuL both in-
Emmings: Yeah, do both. That's okay Loo. I don't know. But if it'svisible, I don't know. The policing of lhis is almost hopeless anyway
nol
and
Plannin;
August 7
Commission Heet i n9t99t - Page 40
if you bury thaL pipe, it's totally hopeless. I mean it's beyond hopeless
somehow. Llhatever that might mean. t^lith regard to raising that Class A
wetlarrd 2 feet, the raising of the level of uater in t-he wetland is going
to be done simply by raising Lhe ouLleLs.. Is Lhat right? Or where the
water wiIl spill out.
Krauss: tJe structJre the outlet so..,
Emmings: So you're not going to be Pumping water into. this thins. ft's
going to fiII up by natural ...or ulon't fiII up at aII. And sometimes it's
going to go down I take it so the line we're talking about on the shore,
Lhe aquatic vegetation changes to terrestrial is something that's going to
change over the years no matter what we do there., unless we actually PumP
and keep it full at Lhe specific level. Okay. The one thing that bothers
me about the Class A weLland is everytime we }ooked at wetland designs,
r.rhere we've insLalled them or we've gone in and aPProved Lhem, they've
always had an unclulating bottom so Lhat you had areas where vegetation can
grow in shallower water and then there's deePer urater areas and I don't see
any effort at all being made to do Lhat in this one or is that iust
something Lhat's noL he:'e?
olsen: It 's being done.
Krauss: specifically the class A wetland?
Emm i ngs: Yeah.
Krauss: tJeL ] thenot to Iook at. . .
class A wetland tte've
The new uJet I ands that
pretty much toLd by the DNR
being created.
about that.
the DNR
bee n
are
Emrrings: Yeah, 1'nr jusL talking about the Class A. So the DNR is no! for
doing that ?
olsen: l^Jhen r was talking about the dredging uJas to dredge all the
material on the whole siLe.
Ernmi nge: Nc,. I'm only talking about making an undulaLing bottom.
Olsen: I know what you're talking about. Yeah, that's.
Emminss: I would think the DNR would be for lhat.
Olsen: It was toLal dredging to remove phospherous.
Emmings; f'm not talking about that. tle don't need to talk
olsen: Right, I know - That's what I'm saying. That's what
suggested .
Frank Svoboda: I'm Frank Svoboda. Mr. Chairman, members of the
Commission. tlhaL you're referring Lo, typically what's done is in the
process of reconslructing or designing a new wetland. tlhat hre try Lo do is
create that variable bottom. In this case tre'r-e dealing with a natural
uetland.
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
799! - Page 41
Emmings: No, you're dealing with anextent isn't that r ight?
agricultural f i.eId. I mean to some
Frarrli g.voL,oda: lJel1, when I use the term naLural I'm using it in the sensethat the DllR would use it. Yes, I would agree based on the hisLory that Igave you that it is no longer or it has become naturalized because it'sfilIed up with Hater. This bottom is basically flat and weire notproposing to do anyLhing with that because that would require a permit toalter that uetland through the DNR because it is a DNR protected wetland.
So all we're proposing to do is a practice that is consistent with both DNR.and Fish and l^lildlife Services practices urhen they actually manage wetlandsto enhance them for waterfowl is they will put in a control structure andthey wilI raise the water level. by eome determined amount and they urill noLdo any sort of mcdificati.on of the bottom.
Emmings: Okay. It seems to me if He went and approved that wetland that,sone H6y to do j!. But I don't knoH. The DNR isn,t requiring you to do it.I don't knotr. It seems Iike we're turning what is sometimes a wetland inLoa pond here. Maybe thaL's okay. f don't know but if we,re going to caIIit a t^ret.l.and and be consistent urith what we,ve done in Lhe past, it seemslo me there ought to be some variation in that bottom so that you get somevegetative growth that's typical of wetlands.
Erhart: If it was dry when they did this project, you could do that but
now that you've gol what, probably a foot of water?
Rick Sathre: A foot to.
Ernmings: l.Jell you could still do it I suppose. It might be harder.
Olsen: Just real quickly. The DNR did suggest that they do want to getthe vegetation Iike what you would get i.f you had the undulating bottom.
You could have it drained completely and let iL dry out for a couple ofseasons and then that vegetation would appear and then Iet the uJater comeback in and some of the vegetation would be removed or some stay in butyou'd have to dc that on a cycle-
Emmings: Okay. I'm not sure that it wouldn't be a good idea to have a
uniform roadway 9oin9 through there, 26 feeL, I don't know if it's enough
or not. If this is one of those points where if the developer can talk the
Cit>' into it, the Engineer and Planning into it, that's fine but. I don't
have anyway Lo think about it. On that one curve Lhough, you're reducing
the road to 26 feet from 31 - Then you're adding a 6 foot sidewalk whichbrings you back out to 32 it seems to me and I don't know why, what the
Emmings: That's an awful lot of nuisance. I don't have any problem r.riLhthe rezoning. On the preliminary plat, the 26 fool roadh,ay, I just likeoLher people have already said, I don't have any Nay to knour. One thins Iwould.Iike to ask though is if you're going to, I assume that if it doestaper from 3l Lo 26 that's going to happen over, it's not going to go Iikethis.
t^<rauss: No. There's standard road Laper delails.
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
1997 - Page 42
hell's' the clifference if you build it as: a road or as a road ancl .a
s i der.Ja I k .
olsen: It xas going to be on lop of where the boulevard would be. So if
you had the 31 you still have boulevard and you still have that. So you
have the street, the curb, boulevard so you'd have wider street, curb,
boulevard versus narrower street, boulevard with a sideulalk.
the boulevard on lhat side, you'dEmmings: Okay, but if
still have the 31 foot
OIsen: Yeah
acceptable.
you just eI imi nate
road.
and Lhat was something that we discussed and it wasn't
You need that boulevard.
Krauss: It uJas our City Engineer's Position Lhat he wanted to maintain the
boulevard section both for the insLallation of utilities and to allow for
road ma i nte na nce .
Emrnings: AlrighL. Another thing that came uP but I'm not quite sure how
to think about it and I'd almost like to ask Ladd about it is if the net ''l
density here t^rinds up being 2.1 t{hen we tvpicallv have 1.7' isn't that ' I
thaL's starLling to me but again I don't quite know how to evaluate it
because uJe are preserving so much oPen sPace. I guess the reason it winds 'lup, I don't know. t
conrad: That's tough. And I've been struggling with that trying to figure -out what we're really, I guess I have to ask staff again. On the surface Iit ]ooks like there's a lot of open sPace but there's a Iot of oPen sPace
there no mat-ter what that you can't develoP on and so we've got 37 houses
on, especially on some, very small buildable sites. I endorse the "1
clustering thins. I really like that but I'm sLiII struggling with what is I
the City getting back in return for that
olsen: The buffer area is someLhing kind of new and in addition to that "l
the tree preservation areas. I mean definitely setting them aside.
Krauss: And the additional wetland area.
conrad: A little bit.
Rick SaLhre: An enhancement of quite a bit.
Conrad: An enhancement?
Rick Sathre: There's only 2 acres of the wetland that's Lhere now that'snot changing. Most of the uretland that's there is either or ue'reproposing to improve it either by raising the water level or we're going to ".l
improve it by recreating it in a more diverse manner. So r{e don't'have all I
the same kind of grass and wetlands. It will be more diverse -
conrad: I guess that's uhere I get back to, I Iike Lhe trade-off of
density for improvement but I'just can't tell at this point in time if
there is, I don't know what kind of improvemenL there is. Does the DNR 90along with this? How Has Chanhassen changed because of Lhese neut
Planning
August 7
Commission MeeL i ng
1997 - Page 43
standard:? The 45 foot setback. I jusl have a real tough time sayingI undersLanC r^rhaL Lhe trade of f is,
Krauss: On some of that, hre are learning as we go. I mean the science isimproving. The knowledge is improving. tle've goL our surface water
management plan coming up. There's neN SLate legislation for wetlands that
we helped draft that's now in p).ace. tle have nelr management practices thatue're getting from various State organizations. [^le're trying to
incorpor-ate that stuff as it develops. I can't sit here and telI you thatthese are the slandards lhat we're going to propose to you 5 months, a yearfrom now with our new surface water utility but bre think these are the bestwe can offer you at t.his point in time. AJ.so if I could go back a littlebit too about the density. I've often told you in the past Lhat I'm realuncomfortable with our net versus gross but that's what you,ve al.ways doneand this is not realIy the appropriate place to argue abbut that but whenwe have a net density figure here,2.1 units per acre, the 1.7 unit peracre averegi, density thaL Ne told the MeLro Council we experience here is agross nunrL:er. tJe just went in and took subdivisions and divided the numberof lots by the area. t,le didn't knock out Lhe streeLs and wetlands,
Emrnings: Okay, that wasn't a net number. I thoueht that uras a net number.
the 1.4Krauss: Nc, Lhat was a gross number. So that would equate tounits per acre gross density that you're geLting in here.
BatzIi: Assurni ng
deve I opnre nt .
you have a big *etland in the middle of every
Terry Forbord: Hr. Cha irman?
Emmings: Sure Terry, go ahead.
Terry Forbord: There's been a number of issues raisedyou gave your comments and if you'd like, I think I cansignificant ones thaL I heard to date.
by each
a nshrer
of you as
the
Emmings: Okay, if you're not going to address what we're taLking aboutright now, I'd Iike you to wait because .I'd like to finish urhat I've sot. on
my sheeL and then you can go ahead. That's okay. You urere just hoping I
was done. Like everybody else. Now when people build decks in the backyards of their houses and they're along that Class A wetland, are theygoing to have to come in for a wetland permit?
olsen: If it's developed within 2oo feeL?
Emmings: Yeah.
Olsen: lJe've never done that in the past. I think what we intended withthis is that tre esLablish Lhose setbacks for the Class A and Class B
uetLands and as long as lhey maintain that, that taas essentially aII being
appr-oved nour. That any development teithin that 40 foot to 75 foot setbackis acceptable.
Balzlil So you can construct your garden shed right at the marker?
PIanni ng
August 7
Commission Meeti ng
1991 - Page 44
Olsen:
BatzIi:
Emm i ngs :
OIsen:
Batzli;
Yeah. No,
l.l h/- not ?
As I ong
noL a!
That.'s
the mar ker .
within the setback isn't it?
You
Krauss:
Farma kes :
UP
You setback though.
Is the setback from Lhe marker?
Krauss: The setback is from the wetland. So part of that setback and the
conservstion easement over lap .
Ernmings: okay, what is the setback from the wet I a nd?
40 feet to 75 feet buL theOlsen: That's where you have it ranging from
buffer within there might be 10 to 25 feet.
Emmings: okay. t,lith regard to the things that Terry talked about. Under
number 2, the revised landscaping plan. The landscaPing on the south side
of Lake Lucy Road, I drove by Lhere Lonight and that was one of the first
things that s.truck rne is Lhat it needs it. But it doesn't need, and I
Lhink I asree wiLh the other comments I've heard. It doesn'! need to be a
so]j.d screen across lhere. It needs to have some clumps of things iust to
break up wlrat's there so I Lhink you're kind of on the right track on that
orre but it definitely needs something. The landscaping along. the rear
lots, I personally don't have any interest in that at all because it seems
to me the lots thaL are closest to the road already have, there are some
trees in there already and the ones that don't have it are a long ulays autay
and m not that concerned about that personally. The landscaping, (c),
along Lhe 2:1 slope adjacenL to the Class A wetland. I don't really have
any comment about that. It could be sumac or anything Iike that,
SomeLhing that- r^rould hold the bank but not be that bis a deal. On (e), the3 trees per lot. I don't know if Terry kner.l when he said Lhat h,as
excessive that they get a credit for what's on the lot and that might
chanse his attitude toward it a little bit. I don't know but I think itshould be enforced. As far as the issue, which we can now call Joan's
house, !ha! we've been referring to as the berm, what f bJas going topropose on that even before I knew it was Joan uas that, that seems to me,if nothing else Lundgren has demonstrated a real r.rillingness to work withthe City and it seems to me Lhey ought to have the same willingness to workr.:ith Joan. And she ought to get, the person that lives in that house oughtto geL Nhat they need. If it means a berm, it means a berm. If that's
what it takes Lo saLisfy LhaL homeowner, ;.,hoever it might be, then that's
what it takes. That's what should be dor,.', I'm not that concerned aboutthe !.,,ay that u,est street goes through, even though it's taking down 10 to
16 inch oak trees. There's no uray to bring a road out on that end that
saves all the trees. Cutling down some trees, I don't know. tje're tryingas hard as we can to save as many as we can and you can'L save them all andtrees, forLunately grow" You can plant neu, ones and you ought to be
have 4O
to Lhe
have a
as it's in your back
foot, You have a
mar ker . Up to the
yard.
40 foot setbac k .
conservaLion easemenL mar ker .
P.l-anning
Auglr st 7
Commission Meeti ng
199L - Page 45
plantirrg riew ones all the time. But it doesn't, Lhe location of that roaddoesn't concern nne that much. It seems Lo me like it's in a pretty
reasonabfe place. The other thing I've got here is in the back of ourpacket. There uras a letter aLtached from the neighbors Lo the urest. JoeMorin and it uas endorsed by Ted Coey. I don't know if f'm pronouncingyour names right but I guess if nothing else, I don't know that r.le've
addressed all the issues that were raised in that letter but the letter wasa lot of effort. I can see that and it was aimed at a loL of specificproposals and it's not that often that we get this organized something fromthe neighbors and I think it ought to be acknowledged. I can,L give you
much more Lhan that but we ought to acknowledge it. The blending Hithadjacent neighborhoods-that iou bring up is a problem that we've discussedat the Planning Commission almost as long as I've been here. l.le've neverfound a way to do it. t^teive looked at trays of doing it urhere you havefornrulas. If they're going to be ]ots that adjoin another property, therecan only be a certain density so you wind up making the properties biggeralong the edge if you're abutting up against big properties or sma1ler,..I Lhink it's more in living in a developing community... The farmerdoesn'! like to see the big lot subdivisions coming in next to him. Nherrthat farmer selIs and that developer builds smaller lots, the bis lot.people clon't like the smaller lots and i! jus! goes on and on and there,sjust no happy way. There's really no sensible Nay to address it. Some ofthe points he brought up, you know Lhere's the visual impact of the backyards. That's really an aesthetic issue and that one has been addressed to
some e):tent. The impact on the Class A wetland on Lake Lucy, I guess we'rerelying, because we don't have the expertise primarily we're relying on ourstaff and DNR to tell us what we should or shouldn't do here. That's whywe're nnaking the DNR permit a condition of our approval also. Excessive
number of variances. There won't be any variances because it,s being doneas a PUD. Maybe that seems Iike a little bit of slight of hand but I don'Lthink it is. The notion of buying the PUD, at least the way I see it is,that we do relax Lhe normal single family subdivision standards to someextent in order to get something that we think is of value to thecommunity. To get a project that we think is a good project. ThaLpreserves open space. That's sensitj.ve to other natural features andthinks of t'hat nature. So I don't know. Those are my general reactions towhal Joe wrote. I don'L know. This is 2 hours into this and now really Iguess I oure you a chance to respond.
Conrad: 3 hour s .
Emmings: 3? Okay, I live in a different lime zone. Terry, 90 ahead.
Terry Forbord: Hr. Chairman, members of the Planning Commission. I'Il bebrief. I think Lhat it's important for each of you to realize, and Ibelieve you do realize this, That you have a staff, and I've heard itrepeatedly from each one that you're reLying on staff because you don't
have the expertise, etc.. I think it's important for you Lo realize Lhatyou have a staff that is highly competent, tle work in. every community inthe whole western suburbs and there is no other city as much on the cut.ting
edge of the issues that you'f e all worried about here lonight more so than
Chanl'rassen. That's a fact. f can state that. There are some very close
behind you. Plymouth and Eden Prairie but to me that tells me you should
have a certain amount of credibility or b,e aII should have a certain amoun!
Planning
August 7
Commissron Meet i ng
7991 - Page 46
of credibility and undersLanding with staff that they're doing their duediligence. There was some discussion about we rely on the Army corps of
Engineers, c'f the DNR because Lhey're so fair. Those people are more
slanLed probably lhan the development community. t'laybe. So I think it's lfair to say in Lhis particular analysis that staff has taken this to the
nth degree and I think staff r,rould also support this claim. That Lundgren
Bros. is the one ihaL came forth with the iniliative on the preservation
izones, How to make it enforceable. How to make it work in a way that I do
not kno of a city that has that or has ever had a plat filed with that
type of resLricLions as far as setbacks, etc.. That wbs an idea we came
forth with after them asking us can you come up with some sort of crealive I
idea that wiII make it so we can protect u,ha! ule're trying to Protect. To
rre, just from a professional standpoint, this has been a real Private/ -public secLor endeavor. Next item would be, I think it's important as PauI
stateci jrr the staff report, it's important to recognize what Ne are not
asking for. There's a lot of discussion and confusion stiII that aPPears -over PUD versus a slanCard subdivision. It's really not Lhat comelicated.
1PUD's are simpliel to understand actually Lhan standard subdivisions.
Believe it or not but it's i.mPortant to recognize tlhat we're not asking
for. If you look at trhr,t all the things that a PUD may encomPass. There's "]
been a lot of discussion about density and I'm glad that Paul brought it up j
because I was just squirming in my seat to shal'e with you trhat the real
density issues are here. tlhen you geL into this 1.7 afid 1.4,7-2,2-7 ibusiness. This proposal, as you know in Lhe RSF dislricL you can have i
anywhere from a 1,2 r-o a 4,0 density. This is aL !.2 if you use the same
ratio as what the City uses throughout the City and the tray thev factor the
1.7 . The issue about when you look at a siLe Plan and sav weII these lots l-really aren't that big because there's a wetland as Part of it. I don't
undersland lhat. Those lots are that big. Those lots are owned by the
homeowner. If you took into consideration some of the comments Lhat were '''i
and if you )ooked furLher west down Lake Lucy Road, there's some 5 acres, i
son)e 10 acre tracts and some 20 acte tracts. If you took those 10 acres.
There's about 3 or 410 acre parcels just west of this. If you subtracted -rouL of Lhose 10 acre parcels the wetlands, or the unbuildable area, Lhose Ipeople dc not have 1o acre parcels. ShouLd they have been allowed to have
a building permit? So in realiLy Lhey do have 10 acres. In reality these
Iots do meet the tes!. They are Lhe correct uridth at the setback J.ine that "'l
the City requires. They are the minimum size that the City requires and I
whether there's a wetland there or not realLy is irrelevant. If you took
the wetlands ccmpletely out of that plat right now and all you could see -r.:ere the Lines, this project wouldn't be any denser. Those homes wouldn't
be any closer together than any other subdivision that has lhose setbackregulaLions. Those sideyard setbacks. Nothing urould be different and I
think Lhat's important to recognize. For some reason I keep hearing these
are closer togelher. Boy these are really shoe horned in there. They'renot. So I think it's, I had to remind you of that. The uetlands don't
have anything to do with it- The issues about the DNR. The.staff has put "]in as a recommendation that whatever approvals before you this evening I
r.rould be contingent upon obtaining each and every other governmenLal agency
approval an,C that's only fair so we do not have a problem t4ith that. t",e
agree pith that. The landscaping, I neg.lected in my earlier presentation
ito get to r,rhat I was finally going to say. What I was going to talk abouL
uas the concentration of wetland budget effort so when you see the
landscaping you really feel like you've got something and the uray to do -''l
P lanni ng
August 7
Cor,imission Meeti ng
1 991 - Page 47
thart is c,oncentratecl in lhe very most importanl areas that need it themost- In oi:her uords, if your budget allouls you to buy 2CO Lrees and you
spreacj 2CO trees at equal distance all over an entire 30 acre piece, it'snot going to ]cok Iike there's very many trees. But if you put Lhem in thekey places. Right r.:hen you're going around a curve or right where you'retrying to screen something or right when people come in, boy and then youirr.igate it and you plant some flowers around it and you do some of theother things with Iow profile bushes and stuff, people are going to go wor,,l .There's gojng to be an immediate, Nhat we cal], point of arrival impact,
And about the Iandscaping, I guess what we would request is if you wouldaIlow us to uork with staff because xe rea]ly haven't had that opportunity.
tr,le would pursue that in the same uay we've pursued and overcome aI I theseother challenges. tje would go out on the site h,ith the staff. We'd kindof say, well here's where the road is. Hou, does it uork best and that isthe r.ray r.re would propose to do that. So I think the landscaping issue isreally a non-issue. I think that's something u,e can uork out with staffjust i.f we l,ave all these other. The visible rnarkers at where thepre:ervation zone is. I think that's an excellent idea. tje discussed thaLquite er bit at staff leveL. In fact we kept trying to come up Nilh the
neaLesL ideas and we kind of had like a Iittle brainstorming sesson.Actually r.Je are not opposed to, I mean there's going to be monuments there
anyr,Jay and' rather than having some ugly iron monument there, maybe lhere,sa way that r.'e can corne in. As you know, as part of this pUD we urill try tobe making the signs and all those other architectural elements kind ofblend together, Maybe we can coi're up with a small little sign that sayspreservation zone and it Would 9o on a particurar monument at each corner.
t^le ta] kecl about therL at the staff level . That may be a possibility becauseI do Lhink, as Chair recognized, that the people do. need to know and thereshculd be nc confusion over that, Just so you know, in all of our purchase
agreexre nts as exhibits there are items that depict uhat you see here andthere's an ease,"nent for preservation under that becomes a deed restrictionand an exhibit thaL's actually in each purchase agreement that each
homebuyer buys. But LhaL's not to say Lhat maybe we shouLdn'L try to comeup r.:ith another method of being more proactive and handing out maybe DNRIiterature to our prospective buyers so lhat's something I think Ne canxork through with staff because I think they're aII items or objectivesthat ue're aLl trying to meet. I think as far as Commissioners AhrenssiLuation wiLh her home, thaL's a difficulL thing. I don't have an
immediate fix for that. I don't Lhink Lhere is a perfect fix. I do knowLhat that home from the elevation of the Ortenblat driveway, that that homeprobab)y to it's peak or let's say just Lo the upper most windows on the
upper level is probably close to L5 Lo 22 feet high. Approximately. You'd
have to build a berm that high to completely screen the house. It wouldvirtually, it would not be practical but I do believe that it r4ould make
sense to try to screen to hrhatever extent reasonably possib.lb any traffic,
Excuse me, headlights. That's on a very busy road. The majority of thetraffic lhat goes by that home isn't coming from our subdivision and themajorily of the Lraffic Lhat conLinues to use that road over the next
1O-2O-30 years will not be coming frbm this subdivision. I think we shouldlook at what impact urill this particular subdivision. It would only be thEpecple that are making left turns at night with their headlights on
remembe:-. It's noL 24 hours a day, every single car coming in and out ofthere and remember there is another entrance. But we would like theopportunity to i,ror k wiLh Lhe subject property. To delermine and find a u:ay
PIannin3
Auguet 7
Cornmission Meet i ngf99i - Pase 48
lhat we can screen
think it should Lle
that because it is a concern
fair and I think iL should be
Should we starL over now?
to end this soon. Are Lhere
of ours as we] ].
reasonable. Tha n li
But I
you.
Emn'ii ngs: Thanks
Conrad: [,le've got
agenda?
any more items on our
Erhart: Ihe bankers -f
Conrad: Just a thought. f'm looking at Lhings h,e don't knoh,. Staff, do I
you feel that you've ironed out a lot of rhings or are Lhere more things to
iron out that should be brought back to us? I guess an issue that I'm just -struggling urith is do we want to see Lhis again here. There are a Iot of I
open iseues in my mind. There's a.lot of issues, when you talk about
something for 3 hours it means things aren't real clear. It means they're
fosgy. 6uestio;r is can we deal with it back here or is it stil] going to "'l
be foggy the next time? There's a lot of subjective feelings and it wiII !
be subjective once it geLs to City Council also. So veah, I'm struggling
wiLh whether I Hant to see it back. PauI, Jo Ann, is there validiLv from --your standpoint. Landscaping you haven't talked to Lundgren a great deal I
about it. But definitely some difference of oPinion and the u,ay Terry set
us up, he was talking about some financial things that make the Proiect 9o
or not go. Iha!'s the way I heard it in the beginning. Whether that was an
Iovergtatement of the case or not, f don't knor,l .
Olsen; I think the landscaping we can, I think that's something we could
definitely uork out. The wetland issues, PauI and f ulere already
discussir:g that we should probably before it goes to Lhe CounciI,
definitely gets those comments back from the DNR. tJhether or noL lhat
means you Hant to see it again, I don't know. tjhat r,rere those main issues
to the uetlands? Nhat was really imPacting...
Conrad: obviously if they don't get the Permit this road doesn't go in,
, i.-h+ ?
0lsen:c\ i ^h+
9o you've got
back to us.
That r^rould. Oh
Conr ad :
to come
a uhole different ali.gnment and that, it would have
Olsen:yeah, Lhere's no question.
Conrad: 9o f guess I'm kind of bothered. I really would have liked to
have seen the DNR comments. Obviously Lundgren wants this in and wants it
gone and hopefully the ONR wiII approve it but I really wouldn't have Iikedto have seen what they said about th.is before we spend 3 hours of our Life,31l2 hours screwing around urith this. And ure're changing our setback
standards of a wetland program that we set that really is a State model and
we're changing it. I think NhaL you're lelling me is preLly good but we
haven'L considered it so here uJe are. l.le're in a PUD. [.Je're saying okay,
well iL must be good. Let's do it. Let's forget about the standards ue
set. Let's slip them. See I don't know again.
Pla nn i ng
August- 7
Comnission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 49
Ennnings: Ho;i are you ever going to know Lhough?
Conraci : tJe'd get the experts in and say hey, setback doesn't matter.foot Lransition area is far more important than an arbiLrary 75 fooL.
10
Olsen; t,,e have received that though. That's where ure got the idea fromtalking ":ith Fish and t^lildlife and talkins u,ith the ONR. Saying look. urehave this 75 foot selback but Ne're still having aI] these problems. tJhatdo you, and I didn't give you that background but that's where ue got a IoLof that fronr . But the density issues and things li.ke that, if that's whatyou uJant to see, ure can bring that back.
Conrad: Those are just some discomfort areas that f ,ve got. I had aconcern wilh pedestrian traffic and r don't think r coulp go dourn to a 26foct road if we haven't found a uJay to handle people. r'think d have tokeep it at 31 . Road access by Joan's house, I don,t know that that,s beensolved- The landscaping hasn't been solved. Jeff tarked about densi.tyon LoL 14 and all the LoLs that are backed up there. The engineer, we,rerrot sure Nhether the 2 foo! rise in elevation or water is going to affect.There's just a lot of liLtle issues and whether we're going to do anythingabcut t.henr if thev came back. That's what I'm struggling with. Do we haveanv insights when this comes back that it's going to be better? r do knowthat staff r,rould have more time to address a couple of them. The roadacces3 and tl-re landscaping. The question is r think do we want to see it.
Emmi ngs :
calling
zones is
Just as a
these zonesprobably a
very minute point, I think what Terry said aboutpreservation zones rather than calling them buffergood idea. Just because the name telLs you what iL's
o.Lsen: tlctually r think we're going to have it as a conservation easement.
Ernrnings: Yeah but.if it's called a preservation, that one carries a lotcjifferent impact than a buffer zone. r think it's probably a good idea tocalI it that. t^jould you, PauI have some comments on Ladd's questions?
Krauss: This is a lough one. tle're examining this subdivision, this pUD
under a microscope that we di.dn'L even know existed a year ago. I mean uleare holding this project to standards that the SLate hasn't even thoughL ofyet. They've just started a committee to think of them over the nexL 2years. l^Je're examining this, and there's nothing wrong wiLh it. It,sstaff's instigation that r^re're doing this but we're examining Lhissubdivjsion to the extent that we're determining whether a road should be 2or 3 feet u,ider than it is to save a tree. tle're biting off a lot here andthere's an implication that because it's more complex and there are somethings that still need to be resolved, that there's something inherently
wrong r.rith the plat. I don't think that that's necessarily the case. Irecall there's kind of a parallel. TNo years ago when we brought you
Market Square PL,D and il had 20 something conditions attached to it and
Commissioner Conrad Has ver-y concerned that thaL implied that there uJere aIot of loose ends and it probably ought to be thought of some more. Myreply uas no. It just implied that it was a more complicaled proposal thanyou're used to seeing and we needed these condit.ions to guarantee thatthese kinds of Lhings t^rould happen. I'm not going to LelL I wish we had a
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 50
little r,ore time or that Lhe DNR could act more promptly. Part of the {thing that's throwing the DNR on this one is they too are going into this !
is that they toc are going into this in more detai] than they've really
been asked to in Lhe past. t^le're holding ourselves to standards that of-her ''l
people aren't yet and ure're proud of that and we Nant to conti.nue to do I
that. I don't kno',r how to sum it up. I don't know how !o recommend wherd
you take this. f know that Lhe applicant has some time considerations that 1he has but you need to be comfortable r,rith it and ultimately ue need to get Ia good project for the City. I think He can handle it on Lhe PresumPtion
that we'll have these Ioose ends cleared up before it gets to the City
Council but it's really up to you.
I
Emmings: ft seems to me Ladd. I don't knor^r but it seems to me Lhe things
that are open are 1O:; of the whole, or some smaLl f:-action of the ulhole. To
me they're not big items. I'd just as soon see iL get moved along and
figure that the staff's going to be able to continue to work with them
betwe:n noi.L and City Council and get things done. Or if they can't, Lhat
the City Council maybe wou.Ld Lhen send it back to us.
conrad: My only comment is if the DNR turns
wasted time. It's Nasting, and f guess that
judgrnent in working utith them but if Lhe DNR
wetland, r.re 've trasted a lot of our time and
Counci I 's tinre.
it dourn then it's a IoL of
might be up to staff's best
can't allow the filling of the
we'd be wasting the City
they don't
approva IEmmi ngs : l'1aybe t he n
receive that appr ova I
it's got to come back
put that in as a condition. If
the, if they don't receive thatwe shoul d
pr ior to
Conrad: I think that the City Council should see the DNR's comments-
Emmings: oh they have to.
olsen: And that's what ue were say1n9 Ls r.r e should do too.
Er,rmings: Do r,.:e know when that's coming?
Krauss: tle're calling them daily to Iisht fires. f guess normal]y,
Lhe normal process we urould have had it for you but because of Lhe
complexity of this thing and because we redesigned it, they haven't
Lime to catch up.
u nder
had
Rick Sathrei Hr. Chairman, when ure first were in here, when r.re first were
talking to staff we were encroaching that cross hatched area and what we've
done since then is we really, we pulled the road over much tighter to this
steep slope and not^r at Lhe h,orst point we're 14 feet out into the reed
canary grass that's been mowed along that wetland edge. I guess the bottomIine is, I don't think lhe oNR is really going to say that theirjurisdiction line is this red line. I Lh-nk it's going to be lor.rer thanthat. It usually is bui what the HorsL c l.;e would be, yeah they say, our
Iine is the same as the Federa.I wetland }ine. tlell, what would have to
happen is this road urould have to move 14 feet easterly trhich would Put it
into the slope a bi!. That's how you avoid the r.leLLand. You impact the
slope instead and I don't think.
Plar'ning
AugLlst 7
Commission Heet i ng
7997 - Page 51
Emmings: Is thir Lhe only issue that
They alsc have to receive
Iooking aL?
for raising the water 2
that or they don't Iike
Lhe DNR is
a permiL
they Ii ke
O]sen:
Rick gathre:
Lhat.
OIsen: Andfor it.
But that's not a, eilher
they're just going to be rnaking comments on other things to do
Conrad: I feel the item
should be tabled.
should be, as I look at it.for your, I think it
Emrn i ngs : Dc y ou r^ra nt
Conrad: I can to seethis item be tabled.
Is there a second?
!o make a moti on?
uhal the rest of you think. I make a motion that
Farma ke=: I'll second it.
Emniings: 13 there any discussion?
Batzli: f guess f would rather see the staff work on it because
knour w
t hay sir. rh
.., ...^L
s going to show by us holding it back and they come, the U.S. Fish and tJildlife or DNR, whoever looksare we going t,o say, fine. Go ahead.
I don't
back and
at il Iikesen r": hs L
conrad: Literally at that time I woul.d assume that staff would have r.lorkedou", all the other issues so it r.rould be a clean staff report and we wouldsee jt, That's really, ure'd see what DNR said and we Nouldn't send alongif Dl.{ll had some negatives. See right now if ule pass it, it,s going to 9oto City Councj.l no matter uJhat. And that's the debate. Can we improvewhat r.:e've got for City Council? Can we add value to what Lhe staffsubmits to the City Council? I don't think we're going to slorl it down.ft may be a ueek or tuJo buL.
Erhart: ...uhen urould it be bac k?
would depend on when the Dl'lR responds.Olsen: If it's tabled? It
Erhart: Lihen do you expect them to respond?
Olsen: lJell, have they told you uhen the survey crew might get out Lhere?
Terr)' Forbord: They've already been there.
Olsen; I Con'L know exacLly how long. I Lalked to CeiI today and shedidrr't give an indication how soon it was going to happen so I don't know,
Ernnings: [Je've comrnented on this Lhing. tle commented on every aspect ofit ancl I guess I'm not sure what it would do to keep it here because lhe
Planning
Ausuet 7
Ccmmis- ' on Meet i ng
7997 - Page 52
only circumstance in which I'd like to see it back is if the DNR does
something that changes the design. Then I'd trant Lo see it but f would
imagine that in, I clon't know. Is there. somer^ray we could pass it along
say that in Lhat even! r4e want it back?
OLsen: Sure .
and
or the
shou 1d
r esPo nded
city
Emmings: Ne coulu pass iL the way it looks now, assuming that there is DNR
approval. If Lhere's not DNR approval and Lhat winds up changing the
deeign, then we'd ]ike to have it back. can we do that?
Kraues: LIeII our normal procedure is to bring back anything to you thet I
significantly deviates anyway so making it as a condition is perfectly fine
with us. r guess though I trould ask if r^re could def ine Lhough. If the oNR -'l
did make a change as Mr. Sathre proposed, you know if they said stav out of I
there enLirely, we'd r,rind up chewing into the Ersbo hillside more.
IErnmings: But that doesn't really change. i
Krauss; UelI that was the answer I was seeking.
Emmings: That- dc,esn't change the PIan.
Krauss: If the road configuration changes in any significant ulay
Iot configurati.on changes in any significant utav, certainly that
come back. Also there were issues raised regarding Lhe design by
Cornrnissioner Farmakes and severaL others that I think need to be
to as r.rell. So ue uould make sure that that u,as presented to the
Counci I .
Emmings: Is lhere any other discussion on the motion?
Conrad moved, Farmakes seconded !o table Subdivision *91-9 for further
clarification- Conrad, Farmakes and Erhart voted in favor of tabling the
it-em. Emmi.ngs, Batzli and Ahrens voted against tabling and the motion
failed with a tie vote of 3 to 3.
Erhart: I 'l I second that .
Emmings: Okay, so this is just on the rezoning?
Frn-arr: Yean
seconded that the PIanning Commission recommend
S91-2 property RSF and RR to PUD-R r.rith the followingBatzli moved, Er har t
approval of Rezoni ngconditions:
Emmings: AIrighL, is there another motion?
Batzli: f move Lhe Planning Commission recommends approval of Rezoning
*9f-2, property RSF and RR Lo PUD-R with the following conditions 1,2 and
3 as set forth in the sLaff report dated JuIy 17th-
Emmi ngs: fs there any discussion on the rezoning?
Planning Commiesion MeeL i ng
August 7, f99! - Page 53
Emmings: Alr ight .
The applicant shall enter into a Pl.anned Unit Development Agreement
conlaining aII of the conditions of approval for this project and shalI,
s'..rbmit aIl requi.red financial guarantees. The PUD Agreement shall be
recorded against the property.
2 Compliance with setback standards established in the Compl iance Table.
Subdivision *91-9 andThe applicanL shall meet al. I conditions of the
l.let I a na' Alteration Permit *91-4.
AII voLed in favor and the motion carried unanimously-
Er.rmings: Is there a motion on the preliminary pl.at?
Batzli: f move thaL the Planning Commission recommends approval ofSubdivision $91-9 as shown on the plans dated July 29, 7997 subjec! to Lhefolloi,rin3 conditions. Conditions l Lhru 11 set forth in the staff reportand I'd I j.ke to make a radical departure and ask the Chairman that wediscuss, or a! Ieast go slowly through these changes thaL f'm about topropose here as I make the motion so everybody understands what they are.
Do ycu lil:e tlrat or do you just want me to wing through them and then 9oback?
Enrmings: You're Ieaving conditions 1 thru 11 as they are?
Batzli: l.JeII 1 lhru 11 as Lhey are buL I'm going
u;e're g:oing to include those and nohl f'm 9oin9 to
to modify them now.
modify them.
So
Batzl i : Do you 1,,;a nt nre to just go through them or 9o through them slowly?
Oo ycrr 'er€nt to be able to comment on them individually?
Emn,i rrgs: l,{o. You just go through them.
Balzli; Okay, Number 1, Lhe words, and a 6 foot Eride concrete sidewalkshall be provided over lhe boulevard is deleted. Number 2, (a)' at the endof Lhe sentence in parens (shall include deciduous trees in highlandareas). (b) shall be eliminated. (c), at the end of weLland add theuords, to maintain the slope. (d), the words berming and would beelirninated. (e), parenthetj.cal at the end of the sentence. (Credit for
each tree over 6 inches caliper on the Iot shall be granted. For that lot,
however, a minimum of l tree per lot shall be provided. ). (f) would remain
as is. Number a(g). Added at the end. Such easements shall be markedwith permanent visibLe monuments and the location of such easemenLs shal.I
be provided Lo City staff for approval .
Emmings: Read that one again.
Batzli: such easements shaIl be marked uith permanent visible monuments
arrd the location of such easemenLs shall be provided to City sLaff for
approval.
I Olsen: Location and design?
Planning
August 7
C onrirri ss i o n Meet i ng
l99f - Page 54
BatzIi: The lccation of the actual easement.
Emmings: Don't discuss them. Just give them to us.
Batzli: A ner": one number 12 to read, €he applicant shall provide proper
restrictions ( subject to City sLaff apProval ) on those ]ots having entrance
monurnents and,/or landscaping. New number 13, applicant shalI work with
City staff to provide for a shared driveway betNeen Lots 7 and 6 of Block
t. An,C I r.ror.: Id also add as a motion but not as a condition that Lhe staff
receive the approval or the comments from the DNR regarding the l,Jetlands
and no net loss and all Lhis is a wonderful idea Prior to it going to the
cily council. I would also Like Lo see that thev r.ror k with Lundgrens to
eliminate Lots 14 and one other lot, either 5 thru 13, someu',here in there
of Block 2-
Emm i ngs :LoL 14?
Lot 14, Block 2.
okay. fs Lhere a second?
Second,
okay, discuss ion .
That Iast one r.jas not a concjiLion. Just a suggestion.
Alright. So that's not a condition of aPProval. t"lhat
.tr^+-l i.
Emm i ngs :
Ahrens;
Ernm i ngs :
Emm i ngs :
then?
is it
Eatzli: ft's a directive to staff to ta.I k with Lundgren about doing it.
Erhart: Eliminating two lots?
Bartz.I i : Yeah.
Erhart: Your change on ilem number 1, essentially ]eave it the same? 26
feet in sorne areas and 31 feet in other areas?
Batzli: Yeah.
ErharL: U.li t hout the sideualk?
Batzli: Right- I don't think Lhe sider.ralk's going to do anything.
Conrad: UelI let's LaIk about that. It's at a bend in the road right?Right r.here you need it. It's at a 90 degree bend.
BaLzIi: t,hat is Lhe sideualk going to do?
Conrad: I don't know.
Batzli: I don'! think the sidewalk's going to do anything. Nobody's going
to use it. I uould include it if I Lhought it uras going Lo do something.
I thir;i: r.re colrf C rnake the r.,hole road 26 feet. I just think the 31 feet isnicc because sonre people are going to park on it. I don't know thal iL'sgoing t.. nrat-te:'. That's my rati.onale. I believe the road through mysubjivi:ion i: actually narrouiel than 31 feet and the only time you have aproblein is r^;hcn peop.l.e par k. There's a problem dor.ln the hill around thecurve but there's always 9oin9 !o be a problem u,itsh that regardless ofwhether you've got an extra 5 feet or not. I don't buy that 5 feet isgoing to make that much difference. That you're going to put in a sidewal kthat nobod>,'s goi ng to use.
Conrad: I think they would.
Batzl i : If you werelittIe subdivisions.that cur ve?
down the road'.telling me you
runn-Ing
You're
You run through a]l these
r^rould use the sidewalk around
Conr ad :
runner3
t inie .
rf r
are,
go aroundre going opposi te
close to
Nay,
me aI I the
curves and cars are corni.ng theagainst the traffic. They 're
Batzli: So you'd use it because you,re running against theyou were going Lhe other way, you'd cross over to the otherstreet and run on lhe sidewalk?
traffic. Ifside of the
Conrad: If you take a look at Lhe littleLotus Lake Park. People are always on it
hundred feet but they're aluays there.
asphalt paLh on Lhe north ofIt only goes for a couple
Balzli:
any'',ray.
1n fact they need it more sLretch by the soccer field there but
Conrad: I don't know. f'm not a technician in that case. I just Iook ata 9O degree corner and yeah, just hypothetically. A runner would be comingon the right hand, running come in r.rould be going against traffic. I don,tknow thai Ehat runner's going to use the sidewalk. I don,t.
BatzLi: If aIlperfecLly happy
the other commissioners want a sidewalk there, I'd beto accept an amendment.
Conracl: I heard that people didn't Like them. Yet on the othera real strange curve. You've got a 10 mph limit. Haybe that's
keep the traffic from going too fast there.
hand,
going iilsto
Batzl i: I don't
down.
know that the sign or the curve is going Lo slotr anybody
Conrad: I find that just a general problem and I don'L have a solution.
Batzli: Put 18,OOO speed bumps in there and let the engineering deparLment
worry abou! trying to put the snowplow through there in the winter. You.
knc;ur. I don't knox what uie're going Lo do. If the side*alk would help atall ancl it would save one life, I say put it in there. And maybe then we
say put it in there.
PIa nni ng Commission Meeting
August 7, l99l - Page 55
PIannin3
Aus:lu 5t 7
Comnrission Heet i ng
7991 - Page 56
Conradr I just uranted Lo raise tha! point.
and I dasigned a nature trail going through,pedestrians off the road.
Emmingsr Is there any more discussion on lhe moLion?
1
Batzli moved, Ahrens seconded that the
approval of Subdivision *91-9 as shown
subject !o the following conditions:
Landscaping on the
rror t h of the Class
highland areas ) -
Planning Commission recommend
on the plans dated July 29, 1991 and
tJhere the proposed street is reduced to 25 feet, there shall be "no
parking" signs posted. The sharp curves located in the IooP street
shall be limited to a 10 mPh sPeed limit and shall have "sharP curve
signage .
?. A revised landscaPing plan shall be submitted providing the following:
cl
souLh right-of-way of Lake Lucy Road directlv
A wetland shall include deciduous trees in the
or namenLa I ) per 1ot.
on the lot shaLl be
of l tree per lot shall
enter into a deve-':pment conLract and provide the
secur i ty .
b. Deleled -
l-andscaping along the 2:1 s]oPe adjacent to the Class A wetland to
maintain the slope.
cJ . AddiLional Iandscaping along the access points.
Thre.., i:rees ( 2 hardwoods and 1 evergreen or
( Credit for each tree over 6 inches caliPergranted- For that lot, hourever, a minimum
be provided- )-
e
f A landscaped berm shall be provided on the north right-of-way
Lake Lucy Road across from the tlesterly access to Provide screening
fronr traffic to existing homes.
The applicanL shaLl submit a comprehensive drainage and erosion controlplan prior to final plat revieur. Nood fiber blankets shall be required
for aII slopes steeper than 3:1.
The applicant shall work with staff to invesLigate the provision of
future services of sewer and water to adjacent parcels. The applicant
shall submit final road, drainage and utility plans and specificationsfor revietr prior to final plat review. The applicant shall also workwith Lhe City Engineer to address concerns uith Lake Lucy Road
subgr ade .
3
4
5 The appl ican! shaIl
necessary financial
e'. The applicant shall acquire aII necessary agency permits.
It's not a slraisht 1ine. Tim
Tliat would take all
Planning
Auaust 7
Commission Meet i ns
7991 - Page 57
The applicant shall provide full park and trail fees in ]ieu of landC:dication and trai I construction.
F'r c,r, i ci,:' tl'e following
a. Dedication of aII
easernents:
streeL r i 9 ht-of-way .
drainage easements over all protected wetland and
4caess easeinents as required to service "Wal ker Ponds " .
storm sewer lineseasemehLs over aII seurer, water
out side puL,I i c right-of*way.
to City staff
Iandscapi ng .
a shared
t Conservation andponding areas,
e
f
s
the
andUtility
] ocated
9
L0.
\L.
Cor,servaLion easements over alI designated tree preservation areas.
3,tandalci drainage and utilily easements.
Fror.ride a conservation easement over alI esLablished wetland bufferareas. Such easements shall be marked with permanent visible.
monumenLs and the location of such easements shall be provided toCity staff for approval-
The applicant shall indicate the allouable type of duelling, the housepade ancl the lowest floor elevation on the grading p]an.
The exisr-ing hydrant between Lots 2 and 3, Block l shall be relocated75 feet to the south. The Fire Departmen! must approve slreet namesar,:l ; 1? foot clear space must be provided around fire hydrants.
AdcJit ional hydrants are needed at the intersections of Lake Lucy Roadand the proposed public road.
The applicant shall meet alI conditions of the l^,tetland AlterationPe:'mit #91-4 and Rezoning *91-2.
1)The applicant shall provide proper restrictions (subject
approval ) on those Iots having entrance monuments and/oy
The applicant shall work with City staff to provide for
driveway betueen Lots 7 and 6 of Block 1-
AII voted in favor except Ladd Conrad who opposed and the motion carrieduith a vote of 5 to 1.
Emmings: t"le need a motion on the tJetLand Alteration permit.
Olsen: Yeah, I would just,
the iuly 29th plans.there were some details. tlhy don't we just use
c
d
BatzIi: I move that the Planning Commission recommends approval of t^JetlandAlteration Permit *9t-4. Jo Ann, help me out here. Is there supposed tobe:' set of specifications or a map or something that this is based on?
Planning
Ausust 7
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 58
Batzli3 The July 29th plans t^rith the following conditions numbers 1
throush 7 a6 e+i forth in the staff report. Number 3 shall be clarified
that it's uno'erst-ood that the breeding season refers to the migratory
waterfouri. breeding season .
Emmings: Is there a second?
Erhart: 9€co nd
1
Emminge: Any di scussi on?
Batzli moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of t^letland Alteration Permit #91-4 as set forth on lhe Plans
dated July 29, 7997 urith the following conditions:
3
4
t,
Alteration to the wetlands musL occur when it results in the
impacL to the rletland and not during Lhe migratory waterfowl
Ieast
breedi ng
The "tnal ker Pond. and wildlife areas must be
propose,C in Lhe applicanL's submittal packet
designed to the standards
daled JuIy 30, 1991 .
guarantee
not affecLThe applicant shall Nork Nith lhe Engineering DeparLment to
that increasing the water level of the Class A uretland wiII
lhe stabiljty of Lake Lucy Road.
Emmings: Ladd, do you want to embelish on your no vote
and,zor uetland alteration permit or do you think that's
The applicanL shal I
Engineers.
receive permits from the DNR and Corps ot
The applicant shall meeL aII conditions of the Subdivision *91-9 and
Rezoning *9L-2.
AII voted in favor except Ladd Conrad who opposed and the motion carried
irith a vote of 5 to 1.
on the prel.iminary
on the record?
Conrac,: t.JeIl , just no it's not.
thaL up. I think Lhis should be
Another specific reason r.:ould be
be a sideu:alk.
IL's confused on the record so I'll clean
brought back to us is the primary reason.
the sidewalk issue. I think there should
All wetland areas L,ill be protected during construction by TyPe Irr
erosion control . The erosion control shall be maintained in good
condition unLiI the disturbed areas are stabilized.
The proposed uetlan<'. setbacks and buffer striP shown in the comPliance
table for each lot wiII be recorded as part of Lhe PUO agreemenL' No
r,:etLarrd setback less than 40 feet r+il] be Permitted and the truffer
strip may not be less than 10 feet r,ride. The buffer strip will be
preeerved by an easement.
PIanning
August 7
Commission Heet i ng
199f - Page 59
Emmings: Or the road maybe should be widened. I don't disagree with that.That's something LhaL I think needs attention from the City Engineer andlhe City Planning staff. l.lhat we really need there and that be presented
to the Cily Council. I don't knou what 26 feet looks like or feels like
when you're out on it and if you're a kid who's biking, that's a scarey
corner . t"lell that's welI done.
PUBLIC HEARI NG:
K RJ ASSOCIATES FOR AMERICANA C OHHUNITY BANK. LOCATED ON OUTL OT A. MARKET
SOt
'AR
E PROPOERTY Z ONFD P U D AND IO CATED AT THE S OIJTHUFS T c OF THE
INTERSECT I ON OF I^'EST 78TH STREET AND M ARKET BOULEVARD:
A
B
REPLAT A PO RTION OF OUTLOT A. XA ET SOUARE.
SITE PLAN REV I Et.' FOR A 7 .74O SOUARE F T BUILDING.
Public Present:
Name ESS
Kim Jacobsen
Bob Di ttr i.c k
Randy SchuI tz
P.O
P.O
300
Box
Box
Mai n
635 , Long Lake, MN755, Neu, Ulm, MNStreet t^lest, Sleepy Eye , MN
Emmings: In view of the lateness of Lhe hour, un).ess there,sthat's got a burning desire to have a staff report we'Il skipthat evcrybody's read the staff report. Okay, what?
somebodyit, assum i n9
AI-Jafft I would Iike to add one condition please.
Emmings.; \'c)u're going to give iL anyway. Go ahead.
Al-Jaff: JusL add one condition.
Emmings: Oh, you want to add a condition? tlhere? fe]l
nu mber -
AI--'Iaf f ; Site plan approval.
Emmings: So this would be number 6 on page 12? It wouldSite PIan Revieu?
A]-Jaff: Yes. The condition would read that the parkingthe souLh of the site be designaLed for employees only.
Emmi ngs: Read it a9ain.
AI-Jaff: The parking stalls located to the south of thefor employees only. The reason for Lhis condition is to
between cars that are heading towards the drive thru andbacking out of those parking slalls.
us the page
be number 5 under
stalls located to
site be. designated
minimize confl ict
cars that are
P]anni ng Commission Heet i ng
August 7, f997 - Page 60
Emmi ngs :
appl icant
This
hel e
is a
r^r ho
public hearing and are there representatives.of the
want to present something to us?
Kim Jacohsen: I'm Kim Jacobsen from KRJ Associates. f'm representing the
Americana Bank. I'Il be brief. I think what we're looking at is we've
wor ked with staff very hard. Ne've got a rendering behind us of what we
feel Lhe building is going to look like. I think the major issues that
we've come up with have been mainly our cut from t,lest 78th Street; I think
that would be one issue that we uould like to discuss and that.'s our major
issue. other than tha! I think that hre've goLten most things under control
through staff. They may tell us differenL but through Lhe rePort there uas
not a whole lot that really stuck out at us,
Emmings: Maybe ulhile you're up there I'II iusL ask you, staff seemed to be
pretty strong in the report about wanting a IiLtIe different roof line or
dormers up there. t"lhat about that one?
Kim Jacobsen: tlelI, staff had not seen Lhis sketch and
their latest response back. Earlier tonight I thought
I'LI turn it over to slaff and ask them at this point.
I have not heard
it was positive.
Emmings: t^lelI is that plan dif ferent than Lhe
that they 've seen .
ones , the other drawings
Kim Jacobsen-' They've never seen a rendering colored and it has changed
slishtly. It lras been modified. It's nott to iL's final design form at
this point so this is the first that they've seen this sketch.
Krauss; I think in Lhe past ule've tried to get their rooflines to reflect
the roof lhat's typical in downtown Chanhassen. our design studies tha!
are sLarLing along corridor of TH 5, t,le're looking back into doing that.
There is no agreed upon standard here. I guess I'd'rea]Iy like Lo hear
your comments. I would sLill prefer that the roof line ulas broken up a
Iittle more. It's not as massive a building as it was when our concerns
uere first raised so to an extent they've been PartiaLly addressed. t^,e
don't claim to be architects. t"le Lhink we have some idea of design. I
think it could probably be refined a little bit but I'd like Lo see whatyour reaction is.
Krauss: That is the main central drive aisle in the shopping center thatyou see there. Monterey urhich is a public street which borders the hrestside of the shopping center.
Emmings: I'm not thinking of Monterey. I couldn't picture this. Okay, sothe road that. That's Honterey- Now the road that we're looking at isgoing right down the side of that and that's the only entrance into that
whole property from 78th Street?
Krauss: correct. If I could have a pen. The internal driveway does
Emmings: Do you have an overhead of the site plan? Nour on tlest 78thStreet, lhe road that comes down from tlest 78th Street that enters intothis property, that's not, there's a road Lo the left of that, or to the
urest of thaL that services the shopping center. Is that right?
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
7991 - Page 51
like this. ft comes to the main entrance over there. There's athat comes around in front of the shopping center. Comes back in
and then there's ancther access point up that way.
Okay.
There's no plan for a median cuL nob, at that enLrance?
At the north side, no there is not.
So it's a right in. If you're coming this uray you have to turn at
Right. Or turn down on Market before you get there and make a
somet h i ng
dr ive upover here
Erhart:
Krauss:
Erhart:
Monterey?
Krauss:
decision -
Emmings: Alright, nou as farsaid that's your major issue.
as that being an issue, you got up here andtlhat do you want there?
Kim Jacobsen: tlell, we'd love to have a full risht,/Ieft turn coming out. rthink what we're willing Lo settle for right now is coming out and having aright turrr ouL but we want to have a reft turn median cut so the trafficgoing urest on 78th can access Lhe site directly.
Emmings: Alright. And that's the plan we have in front of us is bJrong?
Kim Jacobsen: Yes .
Emnrings: And the slaff side of Lhat argument is?
Folch: I guess if I could address that. This issue r^,as, as you can seefrom your staff packets, was given to the firm of Str gar -Roscoe-Fausc h tobasically evaluate whether that uas a possibility there. From theirconclusion it was that yes, you cou).d have a curb cut there and that itwouldn't be a problem as far as cars stacking up eastbound on uest 78Lhblocking that intersection. I'm not an expert in traffic engineering. Ido have a basic knouledge of it. My gu! feeling is, Iooking at how closeyou're going to have. Ultimately you're looking at signal Iights at bothMarket and Kerber which are a 4OO foot disLance between the two. Hy gutfeeling is, having a left turn there u,hen they're predicting ullimatefuture Lraffic forecasts of 20,OOO cars a day, Lhat's typical to like a CR42 through Apple Va]ley and Burnsville. That's going to be an awful badlocation to have a Ieft turn in. And this may be analogous to geLting
differen! opinions from different doctors. Things Iike that. I've alsotalked Lo Lhe engineer t^rho designed the downtown system and he doesn'tthink it's a good idea either. Looking at the dimensions from a technicalsLandpoint. Looking at the dimensions for that turn Iane, typicallythey're substandard when you're designing urban situations but this onehere is even further reduced in design. It's realIy shoehorned in there
compared to the other left turn lanes lhroughout the rest of the downlownarea. IL's much lower in dimensions. end if you look at the concept of
where the left turns are located east of Market through the dor^rntown, thisdoesn'l seem consistent wiLh Lhe approach that's been used in the pasL.
And that in a nutshell is where we have our concerns.
Emm i ngs :
PIanning
August 7
Comrrission Heeti ng
1997 - Page 62
Kim Jacobsen: O kay .
Emmings: Bu! as far as the rest of the conditions that are contained
within the staff report, do you have any problems h,ith those? tlould you
Iike to address any of those?
Kim Jacobsen:
wor kable.
I think as far as uJe care, most of those are Pretty much
Emmings: As far as Lhe signing.
Kim Jacobsen: Through
staff. tle're ready to
the signing, everything else. tle've ta]ked Lo
resolve it at Lhis point.
Emmi ngs: Okay .
Kim Jacobsen: I think one Lhing we should poinL out on [^,lest 78th Stree!
LhaL I think is a sood point is right now, if vou look at it and if vou
Iook at access from public safety. Safety vehicles. Emergency vehicles.
It's a tough center to get into. If you have a Iife threatening situaEion. -YoLr're coming down !.lest 78Lh and now you've got to bring your traffic doutn
Lhrough Market back in for a fire Lruck and ambulance. I think thaL a
safety issue was there on West 78th that you need access. The center needs
access, The boLLom line, Lhe city owns Part of thaL center. If you can'L -get customers to that center, if they're going to drive bv on t,lest 78th and I
there's 20,OOO cars going by, that number I don't agree with but I'II give
it. They're going to go somewhere else, And if the City's a partner in
the center, I would think you'd b,ant to get People there. The number one
thing you do in a development is make it accessible. I don't think Market
Square right now is as accessible as it should be. So from our standPoint
we feel it imperative to keep number one, our customer coming in to the isite. lJe also like it from a life and safeLy factor. That we do haveprotection if there is an accident. If there's an accident in the cenLer,
it's easily accessible and I don't think it would be off of Market BIvd.. -I think that the traffic, the number of turns the safety vehicles have to
take, emergency vehicles are going Lo be prohibitive to get people in
there .
Emmings: And the difference that they're proposing is, just so this isclear in my mind. The road coming in off of tlest 78Lh h,as originally going
to be a right-in,/right-out and the wrinkle that we're adding here is we're
adding in a left turn into it for traffic .eoin9 west on tJest 78th Street.
Kraussr Exact.ly so, That's the change. I'd also add too here that I
don't necessarily disagree with anything lhat the City Engineer's raising.
t^,e've talked about this quite a bit but there's a lot of other thinss that
also facLor into this. First of aII it should be clear that we would never
recommend a median cut for an individual property owner.
Emmings: Now as far as the other conditions. I'm sure it's obvious to you
that I'nr tryins to push this along but the last thing I Hant you Lo do is
feel like xe're giving you a short thrift here so if there's anything we.'re
not talking about that's important to you, just Iet me know okay?
PIanning
August 7
Commission Heet i n9
1991 - Page 53
Emmings: That's not what tre're talking about here.
Krauss: No. This is a main drive aisle to the shopping center. It
haPPerrs Lo access the bank but it also accesses the dry cleaners across theway and evervthing else. And the second thing is that there's something ofa design situation here that I think the Council needs to evaluate and evenpossibl.v the HRA because we've asked slrgar-Roscoe to come up with a designof how this median would look accommodating the turn. t^le're not sure hor.Jmuch of the landscapi ng ule can save. strgar seems to think r.re can save afair amount of it but vou clearry don't have Lhe median that you have rightnoN so there's a subjective design issue related to that as we]l. r donitknotr. t^ie just wanted to bring it Lo you uriLh all the facts and concernsand have you and the City Council make that determination.
Emmings: Okay. Anything else you ulant Lo add right now?
Kim Jacobsen: I think that's, the issues like you say. t,e are inagreemenL to tiork on them. I think we can work and resolve those ulith noproblem. I think that we need a resolve on l.,est TBth because it isimportanL to this project.
Emmings: Okay, thanks.
Kim Jacobsen: Thank you.
Emmings: This is a public hearing. rs there anybody else here from thepublic who wanLs to comment on Lhis or has any questions Lhey want to askat this time? Is there a motion to close the public hearing?
Erhart moved, Emmings seconded to crose the public hearing- Alr voted infavor and the motion carried- The public hearing uas closed-
Emmings: Joan, what do you think about t^lest 78th SLreeC?
Ahrens: l.lel I at the Iast second here I
recommerrding a curb cut right?was confused. Staff is
Emmings: t^,hen you say curb cut you're talking about a median cuL?
Krauss; Median cut , yes.
Ahrens: Hedian cut. My personal opinion is even with a median cut thatsLreet is' or the properties are inaccessibre. The design of that street rthink is terrible but aside from that no one asked me before they built it.
Emmings: Well they Lhought you'd want a berm somewhere.
Ahrens: I did. I noticed a berm in here. IThere's a berm right here in the landscaping.
hadIt a comment on
doesn't have
that.
a Iandscaped
Krauss: t^le have recommended approval of the site plan as you see it. Thatincorporates the curb cut but we've called out that curb cut as an issuethat you may Nant to evaluate.
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
7991 - Page 64
berm though but
urester I y por!ion you're 9oin9 to be requiring a berm aLong the
assume you mean a Iandscaped
northeast and
one. Thanks
f or r er,i ndi ng
of the site. I
Is thaL tr ue?
AI-Jaff: Yes
r\a -
iL
Ahrens: I'm goine to 9o along with the staff rePort on this.
confused about the issues concerning the architecLure. I can
!ha!'s what you were aiming at. Is this what you were. aiming
roof Iine in your recomme ndat ions?
I'm a bit
't tell if
at? This
Al-Jaff: The building looked too massive as we were looking at it from the
plans that were submiLted originally.
Batzli: Does this ]ook less massive?
Farmakes: Are you talking architecturally massive or more square feet?
relative Lo the cor ner .Krauss:
Farma kes :
No, architecturally. The massi ng
Just straight slab.
is closer to the design you had in mind? The dormers are
can you see it?
Kraussi Yeah. I mean clearly Ne brant to get aulay from just one straight
roof. I Lhink if you look across the street at the hoteL you'Il see Lhat
the roof turns a couple of different ways ' It has significant dormer tyPe
features Lhat are built in it. I Lhink there's a cupola on toP. r Nasn't
necessarily looking to rePlicate that but I guess we would have a
preference that for lack of a betLer tlord, I don't knoi^l if it's accurate or
not but those dormer features be somewhaL larger. [^1e were informed tonight
that the shingling on the roof that would be what u,e're looking for,
matches the hotel or possibly metal which sounds better to us but again,
it's a subjective evaluation at this Point. I don't have any specific
design guidelines to base this on.
Emminss: You kind of $ant your bank to look massive don't you?
Krauss: Secure.
Krauss: Yeah, I Look a ]ook at it before the meeting. I think we'd Preferthat they be somewhat more accentuaEed and that the roof Iine be broken up
a little bit more if possible -
Ahrens r So this
the r ight size?
Ahrens: t,leII, I'd Iike to leaveyou because I can't teII on that
don't realIy have anything else.
up Lo Lhe applicant to uork ouL urith
that really looks Like. I guess Ithat
whal
Emmi ngs: AIrighL. Jeff?
Farmakes: I realize that a lot of this is subjective when you ta).k
architecture. I realIy don't like this building but I'm just going
these comments just from a personal level . It's just another large
aboutto ma ke
slab
Planning
August 7
Commission MeeL i ng
7991 - Page 65
It
and
building in our city here, a gray monolith that to me tends to make thiscity look like an army camp. I still can't figure out urhat that lightgray. Granted it's maybe in right now in the late 8O's and early 9O's buttoo rnuch of Lhat is a bad thing. l.Je've already had some large oversizedbuildings for our city already in gray. I'd like you to ]ook at that. Iagree that, maybe that's nit picking but I'm going to say it anyway. Theissue of the building, what still bothers me is it's still massive.There's very little window space in it. I would look at that building andI would not r.rant to go in there. It's very unfriendly to me. It looksIike a, it's either a skating rink or it just looks Iike something on the
c heap .
Emmings: Do you feel strongly about that?
Farmakes: f'm not going to dig my holes any lor.ler. It's subjective youknow. tJe all have different colored houses and we aII have differentinte;'ior decoration but r guess r would go back and compare that wiLh theother bank in town and say that there's a striking difference r guess hereand I guess this looks, I guess that they,d be invesLing Lhe moneysomeuhere else other than the building. The Dext comment r,d Iike to makeis on the sisnage. r agree wiLh the staff in their commenLs. r rhink thatLhe sigrr proposal is overkill. !.1e talked about that before and I'm gladthaL this is a PUD so I can bring it up. I particularly, I'd like to seeone sign on this building from the main entrance there on Tatti becausethat'd be more than enough. That there is other examples of businessbuildings Nhere that takes place. I know the one that you're referring tohere in the report. I'm not quite sure r.,hether b,e ever decided if that uJasa busi ness building or if it was quasi-retail or ulhat it was butconsidering the size and where Lhat is, if they don't access it from there,it's going to be darn hard to miss that sign. But if you feeL, I guess ifit's 3 feet on the oLher signage is appropriate, I'd rather just see oneis niy personal druthers. I Lhink that'that does the job. In fact, ifyou're not seeing that the Americana Bank from the parking lot in Lhe back,so r.lhaL? I mean you 've got to drive by it to get out of there so. I like
some of your comments going back to the issue of what you,re trying to dowith this building. I'm not sure, f guess I would ask you Nhether you feelthat they've come back and improved from what you've asked 'them to do. I'mgetting the impression that perhaps you're not 1OO? thrilled with this or
am I getting the urrong impression?
Krauss: Yeah, I Lhink we have to emphasize that they have worked with usquite a bit and the building design has changed quite a bit. IL issignificantly improved and we ]ike the way that it picks up a lot of thearchitectural detaili.ng on the shopping center t^rhich we've encouraged it todo and this is a requirement !o developing on thaL lot. So there's a IoL ofelemenls on the building Lhat I think are good and worthy. As far asthe...goes, I mean we also noticed that the windows were small but I don't
knor.r hour weII I can comment on those kinds of detailing. I mean I'd be
happy to if that's the policy that bre establish
Farrnakes: But the lack of urindow space creaLes more mass on the building-
Krauss:
smaller
makes the buitrding ]ook b
Lhe ratio of the t^rindow t than it is. Thebuildins area is wi. ndows are
a Iot di fferentr. gger
o the
PIanni ns
August 7
commission HeeL i ng
1997 - Page 66
than it is norma I ly .Or appears Lo be
of the shoppi ng
anYb!aY
center supposed to have the greenFarmakes: Is the res!
roof and gray paint?
Krauss: They have green barrel roofs. In fact they picked uP the detail
of the shopping center. You can see it around the back part of the or
behind the bank building. They picked up the tile detailing that .comes
from Lhere and the building materials are pretLy similiar.
Farmakes: Uell I've only been on here since January but I think the City
ought to look Iong and hard about painting the entire ciLv of Chanhassen
gyay. I don't know of any other Precedent where the entire city is
basical ly painted one color.
1n
Emmings: t^lhat about the road?
t^lest 78Lh Street?
Do you have any feeling about Lhat up on
Farmakes: I really feel that
back up whatever they urant to
engi neer .
Emmi ngs: And what h,e
approving that median
do you feel about the
Lhe r oad
do with
i ssue
thaL.
IS
I'
one for city staff
m not going to play
and I'IIstreet
Emmings: So right now the position of staff on the median cut is to 90
along urith it?
Krauss: That's the recommendation
same time it has some reservations.
wiLh this site plan, ygs. But at the
Emmi ngs: Yeah, and
undersLand Lhat.
Charles has talked about his reservations. tle
Fo1ch: r guess from my perspective, I can't suPPort the median cut,
Ahrens: You're not supporting it but Lhey are?
have in front of us, if we vote
cut. Just so evreybody's clear
wi ndours in this building?
it, we will beLhat. Brian, how
for
on
BatzIi: Hum.
Emmi ngs: Okay , Ladd .
Batzlir I would really like to know if staff thinks that this siLe Plan is
weII developed since I counted 11 Lhings that Lhey didn't have or else
we're still uorking on. 10 foot right-of-way. Additional landsiaping.
Signage. Lights. Lighting plan. No grading plan - canoPy issues.
Emmi ngs: t,lelI Emerald CiLy.
Farmakes; t,e]l Emerald city but maybe you can talk a little bit to the
design center aL the U. I don't know of anv other Place where conformity
or it just lends to boredom and counter Productive I think. But I'l] drop
it at that. That's the end of my comments.
Planning
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
1991 - Page 67
Architectural issues. Expansion issues. Roof screening.chang,-s. Hedian cuts. Do you really think this is wellkind of talked about this on the last one.
Turn lane
developed? tJe
Krauss: The kinds of condiLions b,e have on this are sLandard conditionsvirtually r.rith every site plan, Not having a grading plan at this point isno big deal because the site's perfectly flat and ure knoul how it's supposedto grade anyway. tle want it before a building permit is issued. ThingsIike that are minor detailing.
Batzl i : AIr iSht . You're comfortable with that then?
Batz]i: r think the new cut is groovy. r can dis it. r want it there.I don't care about the stuff down the middle of the road anyulay. It,sgetting late. I Lhink I urould like to see, I don,t know hor.r much hasactually been done to Lhe building Lo date and I'II rely on staff tocontinue to r.ror k with them to come up with something that's acceptable tothem. r think there may be a couple of minor changes to the conditions butotherwise I think it ]ooks pretty good. I,m done.
Krauss: Yes.
Emmi ngs: Alr ighL . Ladd.
Conr ad: Are there turo entry spots off
t,ait. Before
into the shopping ce nter ?
there's. . .for trucks or
of Har ket
Kr auss :
not ?
Krauss: tlay i n
on Mar ket .
Conrad: From a sta ndpoi nt
have an entry off of 7ath.
I say !hat,
of running the shopping center, you,ve got to
You 've just got to.
There is one.
Olsen: In the back.
the back. But not off of Harket. There's one mai.n enLrance
Emmings: tlell there is one.
Conrad: A righL-in,zright-out.
Emm i ngs: Right .
conrad: Yeah. The quesLion is, we force the folks going from the eastgoing west down Market.
Emmi ngs: or- around back.
conrad: f guess f have to endorse the cut as the applicant has proposedit. If there's just absolutely concrete evidence that urelI, Charles hassaid that engineering wise it's not a smart move. Genera).ly I would havejust toLally paid atLention to that. I jusL really believe Lhere should bean entrance from 78th to the shopping center. Not to the bank- To Lheshopping center.
PIanni ng
August 7
Commission Meeti ng
7997 - Page 58
Emming€: Or really to both. Because of the shopping center.
but geez, I don't know. Hot^, are we solving that? The turning radius.
Does the applicant have Lo go and buy more property to have that hapPen?
Al-Jaff: They're making the building smaller. Depth
are acquiring an additional 10 feeL I believe.
wise and then they
Kim Jacobsen: tJe aren't acquiring anything. tJe tlould have additional
footage uhen it's replatted giving us 20,ooo square feet. Give us a couPle
more feet north and south dimension just because of the shaPe of the site-
Conrad: Okay. I don't think I have, iust generally and I've never
commented on design before of a building. This building just doesn't make
me feel comfortable. In 10 years here I don't think I've ever commented on
design. I try to leave that out of government. This one bothers me-
Could be Lhe roof line. It iust doesn't seem like, this is the kev
intersection of Chanhassen and it's, as Jeff said, it's not a real friendly
building so l don't knota what it would take to make it tlarmer. I like the
plaza out in front. I think that's terrific. I'm iust not comfortable
with the desisn of the buiLdins.
Erhart: tJhat's lhe maLerial in that exterior of the building?
Kirn Jacobsen; The PUD development.
Emmings: Yeah, we did that.
Kim Jacob,sen: That's rahat the staf f has uror ked
Ihe roof colors. AII of that has been dictaLed
us on. The gray
Lhrough staff to
color . . .
us.
Emmings: t^ie said that whatever r.,,ent into the outl.ot, because it was, we
sorL of saur somebody coming in with a Dairy Oueen I think and tle said
whatever's going on that corner has got to be consistent with the shopping
center. ThaL kind of fear. Now this may have snuck around and hit us in
Lhe back of th6 head.
Erhart: NelI that's what I think. I don't think the building's
necessarily that ugly but I do agree with Jeff in lhat Lo drive evervLhing
to ]ook the same is crazy. My feeling is, when you get right down to the
surface material in this building has to be the same as the center has gone
Conrad: Yeah. r really don't ]ike the drive thru and that curve. That
total turn around. There's some Lhings here thaL iust sort of bother me
design wise. You have the drive thru and then the cut back. obviously
they'd like to get out on the road buL I Lhink staff's Point was well taken
Kim Jacobsen: tle've been dictated thaL r,le're going to try to match
whatever the shopping center has which is some sort of a dry...material .
An arcylic sLucco is the uay they described it and I don't know if they
have a decision.
Erhart: t^Jho's dictaLins thaL?
Planni n9
AugL,st 7
Commission Heet i n9
1991 - Page 69
beyond reason.
Farmakes: That buiLding almost, from that perspective. or from
come in, it's going to be far more predominant than the actualitself behind it.
Emmi ngs: Ri9hL.
where you
center
Ahrens: Plus the centerthan the bank-
behind it looks Iike, is more attractive looking
that Iarge in front of
Emmings: t^lell, we were scared of one thing I think. I don,t know thatLhis is i,:hat happened but this is the way r remember thinking about it. Ueu,ere sort of scared of the unknown there so we said let's make sure thaturhatever goes Lhere is consistent urith what's around it, r think that uasas much to discourage McDonald's or whatever from being there as anythingelee and it's maybe gone too far.
Farmakes: A Dairy Queen's one thing but somethingit, I don't know if that was a good idea.
granite sheeting would be pretty good I think. Anyr.ray,Er har t : So anyNay,
ser iously though .
conrad: His little cut at humor.
Erhart: I do really like the idea of using the Timberline roof. I thinkthat's one place where we've missed opportunities in the downtown. ...notrequire irood shingres and a good compromise is the Timberline. rt reallyhas a nice effect when you talk about the big surface areas up there.Regarding Lhe median cut, my opinion is if we aren't willing to bulldozethe whole median out of downtown, we ought to put this curb cut in.
Batzli: This is a start. That's how I look at it-
Erhart: rt's r,rhat r see as a start to what's going to ultimately get donebecause the Iogic f have is someone coming LhaL way urho misses theintersection. He then has to turn left at l'lonterey anyu,ay. They,re goingto stack up. If you at least provide tuJo cuts, you get less stackingbecause some are going to turn in here and some are going to turn atMonterey because in either case you're going to have, what you'reultimately have is stacking someplace on there. So that,s that one. Iagree, I think maybe Jeff, it seems to me like we have too many signs orthe signs are too big. Help me with what does it mean that signs on each,or 4 foot high wall mounted signs on each building elevation. Uhat doesthat mea n?
Krauss: WeLl actually there's threea monument sign proposed.
Emmings: Two.
Krauss: One.
wall mounted signs and there was also
PI a nni ng
August 7
Commis:.^on MeeLing
7991 - Page 70
Kraues:
Emm i ngs :There are
There's one
I thought
turo o n
fac i ng
you uer e
only shows one in front
mounted. You can't see
Lhe plan aren'L Lhere?
the drive aisle and the shopping center.
restricting. them and cutting Lhem down.
of the building.
the other two elevations.
Emm i ngs :
sorry.
Ahrens:
Kr auss :
Erhart:
sides of
I m
Thie
t,aII
Krausg: One is on the drive thru and one is on the rear door.
Are those two other ones,
bui I d i ners?
are those on entrances or iust on the.
front
you
lot
Erhart: My view of that would be, I don't mind the large sign on the
entrance of the building but the other tu,o ought to be substanliallv
smaller. ThaL's my opinion. And IasLIy is, does that exit road, once
go through the automatic teller, does that exit into the mass Parking
then or do Lhey actually have Lo drive all the Hay up?
Krauss: Uhat r.te're thinking on this is that vou have the balance of
A down here...over Lhere. This lot is Pretty constrained by the fact
you've got Market on one side, the main enlrance down here' There's
no oLher place to provide enLry to this lot so what we're thinking of
here's the exit ]ane and then at some point somebody's going to build
entrance Iane over Lhere and then this would function as the exit lane
both Lhe bank and whatever hapPens dor^rn to the south '
Erhart; Oka)', but somehow traffic comes out of there and Lhey're
have to drive through. They're either going to drive through and
the way doun here or they're going to have to go through uP here.
forcing aIl this traffic in front of the shoPping center.
realLy -
Outlot
that
ts
an
for
going to
go aI I
You're
Erhart:
here.
Kr auss :
ErharL:
Yes .
You made a big todo about not giving a r isht-i n/r ight-out down
Ri sht .
Is Lhat a u:ise thing to do?
Krauss: Uell, if I could touch on that. t,le felt very strongly about it
when the shopping cenLer came in because we didn't believe it r,lould be safe
a! a]I to permit it, As time Hent on' we got much better traffic
information now than r,re had 2 years ago when ure first aPProved this and we
asked Strgar Lo take a look that. In your report there's documentation
that says when we put a signal Iisht up here, which Lhe council and Lhe HRa
are nor.J looking at doing. t^lhen this thing is fully developed, the Lraffic
is going to back up wa'/ down here and you tlill have no uray to make a cut at
this poin! or up here withou! cutting across traffic that's stalled on the
other side- In addition, the ultimat-e develoPment over here is a free
right turn lane, two thru lanes and a left lurn lane. l.Jhat you're going to
Planning
August 7
Erhart:
Krauss:
Erhart: Boy I'11 tell you, it's just awful toup in front of the' shopping center. you can'teither because then how does it Set...
Commission Heet i ng
7997 - Page 7l
You've goL the two Lhru lanes there goj.ng to a single lane?
Agai n, I said ultimately.
have over here is, this traff i.c as it comes around the corner isaccelerating. Some of it is slotring down to get into the shopping center.
Some of this traffic may be turning at the same time and nraking a rnergedrnovement. It's not really the place you want Lo throw in people turningback into traffic. Everybody's looking in the wrong direction at lhat
t irne .
Erhart: Oh, tha!'s tihen you take the median out?
Krauss: UeII, that's down the road. t^le think the median can stay ifthaL's desired but at the present time there's only going to be this sing.LeIane- The l-.lRA wanted us though to reserve the right-of-way and that,s whyeverything is shifting 10 feet to the south. Reserve the right-of-way sothat if iL's determined in the future Lhat you need two lanes east ofMarket BIvd., that we have the phvsical ability to do that and don't haveto buy a bank and tear it down.
put all those cars backingbring it around the oulside
Krauss: Actually though, that's the saferroad basically and wiII have specific wellHarket and to Monterey and 78th Street.
place to be. It's andefined egress poi nts
i nter na Iout onLo
Er ha'r't : Iin and out
mJ
of
ust
the
thinking about aII the trafficcenter wiLh their cars.
and people trying to get
Krauss: Most of that should be focused, well the main entrance againdown here. In fact there's Lwo exit lanes dourn there and that,s urherepeople r.lho are coming from Har ket are going.
is
the
Erhart: . . .that's right . There,s parking over here yet. Okay.thinking that the shopping center was right here. Okay.
Krauss: That's the shopping center. The bank building is sittinghere. Here's the proposed curb cut. Here's the main entrance and
I Has
uP rnexit.
Erhart: And where does the return traffic...
Krauss: The drive by wrapsthis way .
around through here and then it comes over out
Erhart: okay...I think I've got it.
Emmings: Are you done? I wonder if you would have proposed a differentkj.nd of bank with different kinds of materials if you hadn't been uror kingunder Lhe restricLions you were working under and I wonder if we wouldn,L]ike to see it. But f guess I pretty much agree with aII the comments thathave been made abor.rt Lhe building, The uiindows are too small. The roof,if you're go.ing to keep the bui.lding like it is, iL seems to me the roof
Planni ng
August 7
Commission Meet i ng
7997 - Page 72
oirgl't to l,ave a liltle steeper pitch and there ought to be, those dornrers
ought to ba more pronounced as staff has said. I agree with those
comm€rrts. I think that taking into accounL the reasons that we wanted toput some resLrictions on lJhat hapPened-on that corner, some of those fears
would be alla>'ed by the fact that we know now that there's a bank
developing on that corner. If that uould mean that you'd wanL to make some
proposals for, I sti]} think that the bank has to somehow fit in some of
iL's design elements r,rith the Country Suites across the sLreet and the
shopping center but if you Hant a different exterior materials or wanLed to
change some things on there to make iL, to address some of Lhe concerns
you've heard addressed up here about it aPPearing to be an unfriendly
building or too massive or whatever, I Lhink that you might do Lhat. I
think that as far as lJest 78th Street goes, I absolutely agree there's got
to be a left turn lane there and that's aII the comments I've got. Unless
anybody's got anything eLse, Ie!'s see if there's any motions. l^le've got
r,rhat? First one is site plan review, a subdivision and a PUD amendment.
Batzli: r move the Planning Commission recommend approval of Site PIan
Revier,r #91-3 as shoutn on the site plan dated JILY 29, L99L subiect to the
following conditions. 1lhru 5 as set forth in the staff report and the
follor..ri.ng rcodif ications. The sentence Lhat reads, eliminate the Proposed
buildins, adCition from the p1ans. Is that still shown here?
Krauss: It's dashed in.
Batzli: Okay.part because we
so I don't r.Ja ntit - And aL the
approval.
I would eliminate the word
uould never be necessar i lY
it to look like that's Lhe
end of number 5 insert, and
since and include the words, in
approving Lhe proposed addition
only reason we're not aPProving
submit the same for staff
Ahrens: There's a number 6 here
Erimings: oh, you weren't here.
BatzL i : llo, I l^Jasn't here .
Emmings: Uhat you uould be moving if you had been here.
Batzli: Oh, and a ner.r condition 5 Lhat reads, Parking stalls
the south of Lhe site shall be designated for emPloyees onlv.
Emminss: I'11 second the motion. Any discussion?
Iocated to
Batzli moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of SiLe Plan Review $91-3 as shown on the site plan dated JuLy 29
1991 subject to the follouing conditions:
1. The applicant must obtain a sign Permit Prior to erecting any signage
on site. Sign plans should be revised to eliminate the monument sign,
reduce the wall sign height to 3 feet and incorPorate requested
direcLional signs.
2. Additional landscaping shall be provided along the north edge of the
PIanning
AJgust 7
Commission Heet i ng
799L - Page 73
site as proposed in the staff report. The applicant shall provide
steff with a deLailed cost estimate of Iandscaping to be used incalculatjng the required financiaL guarantees. These guarantees mustbe posted prior to buildins'permit issuance. Provide a plant scheduleindicating the size and type of alI plant materials for staff approval .
3. The applicant shall enter into a development contract urith the city andprovide the necessary financial securities as required. If the UestTath Street curb cut is approved, the applicant shall be required tocompensate the City for all cosLs related to its design andconsLruction.
4. Revise architectural plans as follows:
- Incorporate dormers of increased size or other accepLable measures toenhance the design of the roof line
- Provide details of HVAC screening.
- fncorporaLe the use of Timberline or similar quality shingles thatprovide an image of a cedar shake roof.
- Provide details of building exterior treatment indicating consistencywith shopping center construction.
- Eliminate lhe proposed building addition.from the plans in partbecause we would never be necessarily approving the proposedaddition.
- Revise plans as necessary to ensure that a 25 foot setback isprovided Lo aII porLions of the building, including the entrance
canoPy .
5, Revise the plans as required to ensure that room is provided for safeLurning movements .for cars existing the drive-thru lanes and submit thesame for staff approval .
5- Parking stalls located to the south.of the site shall be designated foremployees only -
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Batzli: This really gets back to what you just said and giving theapplicants direction on do they want to come back and }ook at somethingelse. I think t:e r,rould be willing and the Council would probably bewilling to look at that condition u,e put on the pUD contract for thisParticular outlot for the development and I don't knour.. [^le talked a IitLIebit about changing it and I didn't really see any nodding heads or shakingheads back there as far as whether they would want to propose something neu:at this point.
Emmings: I look at it this way. This is an aesthetic issue. It,ssomeLhing we probably can get into trouble trying to dictate to someextent. I don't know. I don't know how much leeway we've got and I don't
Planning
August 7
Cornmission Heet i ng
7991 - Page 74
k nor^r how much they boughtplan to the CiLy Council,
Batzli: Oh sure I think
bui lding and Lhought this
we realIy would rather do
into the p]an. And if they want to take thisI guess they've got the right to do that.
so. I don't know whether they looked. at this
is it. This'is our building or if they thought'
someLhing a little bit differently.
Emm i ngs :
BatzIi:
Lhem I'd
tle don 't trant to
t^lelI I don't knor,r.
Iove to hear it.
go inLo that at midnight I don't think,
If it was a 2 oY 3 word sentence from
do you ?
one of
Krauss: A couple comments. First of aII we're trying to exPedite this for
the bank. The shopping center's suPPosed to break ground in early
septernber. The bank as I understood it is to open by a date certain under
their State Charter. . . l.le were going to trv and hussle this onto the
Council meeting for actually next Mondav.if possible. If you'd like them
to urork on this furlher, tle could sLiII get on the second meeting in August
and give the:jr a little more time to work. Relative to the condition in the
PUD agreement, my personal response is I'd be hesitant Lo drop it. t^lhether
or noi this design meets your sLandards, I think the provision's a good
one. I'd ask you to keep in mind that there are four additional out
building siLes. tJelI three additional besides this one that vou're going
to be looking at and ue keep hearing rumors that Hardee's and Places like
thaL are inleresled in it, I have been in meetings with Hardee's where
Lhey LeII you thaL this is Lhe building 49-A with an orange roof and r want
to be able to tell them to get ]ost when thev do that.
Farmakes: tlell is it possible to modifv it rather than droP it? Putting
limitations say on the si.ze of the bu.ilding...
Emmings: You can leave it in Lhere and you can give them some leeway to do
Nhat we r^:anled done. You can say, it has to be comPatible uith the other
buildings there and what that means u,e can decide urhat that means '
Far-makes; Nell compatible is different than conforming.
Ahrens: You know Paul , Lo back up to the first thing you jusL said.
I don't Lhink that whether or not we're trying to expedite this to get it
to the City Council should, I don't thinl. that should dictate anv decision
we should ever make. tle live with these -'-,ildings for 20-25 vears. If we
think it's ugly now, it's going Lo be worse then.
You didn't set an
Krauss: tJeI I I think compatible uras the r^rork that was used. AIso, to the
architects credit, whether or not they achieved their goaL, they did set
out in mind r,riLh the fact Lhat this is a corner ProPerty and that Lhere
should, you can't make it look exactly like the shopping center but you've
goL to recognize Ehat you've got Country Suites across the street and Lhen
there has to be some sort of transition- Again, I don't know if they
achieved it or not but that's why they're soing with this kind of a roof
r.rhich mixes in more with the hotel than the shoPping center.
Emmings: Okay. Is there a motion on the subdivision?
anst.,Jer to your question did you?
Planning
August 7
Commission l*,leet i n9
7997 - Page 75
Batzl i: Uel I no.
Emmings: tJhy don't you ask a specific question,
Batzl i i Ho,.J would you guys
building or don't you r.,ant
and modify it sI ightly?
doing some more design on theuant to stick with r.rhat you've got
feel aboutto? Do you
Kirn Jacobsen: l.le f eel we
design -
've taken a ciirective from staff. It's our third
Ahrens: Do you like it?
Kim Jacobsen: staff's input into it has been very strong. Ue like it- lnlewouldn't have presenLed it if ure didn,t. Ue think it wiII be a lot nicerthan vou're interpretting. rt r.ri]l be the nicest building in chanhassen isour opinion. Bv far. Honestlv r feel vou'lI be happy r^rhen it's buiIt. tiewill urork on some of the concerns but other than that to go back inLo aredesign at this point means ue go back to Federal Res'ulalors and workthrough them also and that's not within r think... so r.re have worked verydi I igentlv uriLh staf f . t^Je have prolonged this meeting . t,e u,ere on theagenda 2 r.reeks ago. t^Jor ked with staf f again and we're back at this point .so r guess our feelings are right now, we'll sure do everything we can tourork with soirre of the things you said. t^lor k on *indows. t^Jor k on dormers,t^le'd Iove to Hork on colors. But r think to 9o back and totally start overis t ough . . .
Batz]i: Ancl r appreciate you working with staff and r understand why thatdirection uras given. r guess we want to uelcome you to chanhassen. Notmake you feel like you're movi.ng in and we don't like you from the startbut it's a quesLion of looking at it and itls tough to teII from thisdrau:ins r.;hat it's actually going to look like. you,re right and I hopeLhat when it's buirt we aII look at it and say, this is the best thing inChanhassen. f hope you're right.
Conrad; ...doi,rntou:n architectural sLandards are a big deaI. Design is abig deal. lJe're talking about, do r.re have any control? yeah we do. Weabsolutely do. I think a lot of our reactions and like I said, a Iot ofour reactions bJere not rear positive. rt's up to the applicant to persuadeus thal it's for Lhe good of chanhassen so r don't know that u,e shourd backdown. On the other hand, well. I don't know that we shouLd back down. Ithink it's just a different looking design. rt's the first Lime ve everreacted to a building design in all those that I've seen.
Bob Dittrick: r think brhat we've tried to do is to get Lo the design thatr.rould be something acceptable to the City that xould...center and thehoLel . It makes it pretty tough to do. On Lhe other hand, the sLaff didi ndicate to us r,Jhat Chanhassen wanted and that's what r^re want to do. Butwe want to say Lhat staff has been very cooperative and ue,ve been tryingto do the same for them. tJe think we have -
Randy Schultz: I think theseeing. lJe intend to, from
drawing might not dothe beginning, bring
justice to what you're
into town a very friendly.
PIanning
August 7
Commission Meet i n9
7997 - Page 76
Conrad:you are.
Bob Dittrick: . . .way off
many people saying hey, it
IL's to your advantage Lo do that obviously and we'd like to think
base
isn
here thet lhat.
r.ray i t
That's
s sounding. There's too
scarey for me.
Farmakes: r.JeI1, ,'m a potential customer so. I feel bad in a way that
maybe what the attempt uras here Lo do and protect back fired- Particularlv
I think because of a building of this sca].e. This is much larger than a
Hardee's and I think we should maybe look long and hard about modifving
Lhat. I'm not sure what that does legally to that whole position but
buildings of this scale and size reallv affect a lot. The feeling of a
cily and the perception of driving in to totln and that really, that street
there along there is going to be main street. I guess I don't feel. good
about the fact that maybe the restrictions we PuL here are part of the
problem of making this sort of not fit anybody's successful pLans.
Conrad: Nhat r.rould you do
anyLhing else thaL's just.Jeff? You're concerned with color but is there
Farmakes: There's a lot that you caD do to a building facia wise uithout
really changing Lhe gut of Lhe building. There are a lot of things that
can be done here and I feel unc<imfortable to sit here and say what they
woul,C.be. I would rather that the architect maybe address the issues of
how to approach that but I also feel that those restrictions are aLso
coming from us. ResLrictions of color and reslrictions of you should look
partly like this building. Partlv Iike that bui).ding. I don't think, and
f wasn'L here when you did Lhe issue of the shopping center but we should
really ]ook long and hard at making things look the same because what you
geL, if you've ever been in an armv barracks, everything's painted Lhe same
color. ALl the buildings look the same and it's not, it doesn't make for
successful city development. I don't think. It makes it look very boring
and very restrictive. Unfriendly and very too corPorate. I would hope
that if they don't have enough leeway of coming back and working with staf
on this, that maybe we could look at modifying that ordinance - Haybe we
can give them more Ieeuray or at least such an example that buildings of
tha! size could be changed or relooked at. Does that make sense?
Emmings: tJell yeah. I don't know that we'd want Lo change the
restrictions that Ne put on that ProPerty Jelff but I think maybe we'd want
to change iL in this way and say lhat tre're looking for, I don't know.
Somehow the buildings that creatively incorPorate elements of the
surrounding buildings buL also presents a variety in their aPPearance.
Haybe make it so we don't r^rind uP just saying okay, tle'Il take these three
elements from here and these four from here and slam it together and live
with what we've got.
Farmakes: Particu.larly if you've got a building that's much taller than
the rest of the development and you've got more massive. That's where your
eye sighL's going to go. And when everything is the same.
Emm i. ngs : Nobody ever intended
this case. f need a motion on
that but that's the u,ay it worked out in
the subdivision.
Planning
August 7
Commission Meetins
1991 - Page 77
Erhart: Yeah, I'11 move that the Planning CommissionSubdivision S91-8 as shown on the plat daLed July 29,conditions stated in the staff report.
Park and trail dedication feesare requesLed.
recommend
1991 r,rith
approva) of
the two
Emmings; I'lI second the motion. Is there any discussion?
Erhart moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommendapproval of Subdivision $91-8 as shown on the plat dated JvLy 29, 1991 r.riththe fol Iowi ng conditions:
1 shalI be paid at time building permits
?. Provide the fol l owi ng easements:
and ut.ility easements around the perimeter of alISLandard drai nage]ots.
C
A 10' x 30' utility easement located to the
banh building running in favor of NSp.
southeast corner of the
-l- l-;c final plat for the entire Market Square shopping center mr".ist besubmitt-ed to staff for approvaL and filed with Carver .County. Thep]at needs to be revised, as does this requested lot division toaccommodate the additional 1O feet of right-of-way aIong Uest 78thStreet that is being required by the City.
,a
Cross access easements need to be provided over the south driveuayancl nortl'ern 30 feet of the newly created parceL located south ofthe bank on Outlot A.
AII voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Erhart: I'lI move Lhat the Planning Commission recommend approval of theame;rdmen! to the PUD Sa9-2 as shoun on the plans dated JuIy 29, f99l .
Ernmings: I'Il second the motion. Is there any discussion?
Erhart moved, Emmings seconded that the planning Commission recommendapproval of an amendment to PUD f89-2 as shoun on the plans dated JuIy
1991 . All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously-
Batzli: AcLuaIIy on that lastreflected in the other motion?
Shouldn't Lhat be wiLh Lhe changes
Emmings: l,lhat are you talking
one
Ba tz.I i :
lnen wa
f 'm taLking about the
recommending it- as
about?
PUD amendment.
shoun on the
the PUD. tlhat
[^,le made changes to this.plans.
Emmi ngs :
PUD?
No, the amendment to have we done in amending the
d
PIannir,3
August 7
Commission l'1eet i ng
799I - Page 78
Krauss:lh.t have you done?
Yea l-' . tnhy do we have
B+cause the PUD shows
to amend the PUD?
where the bank is supposed toa blank spoL
as far as the rest of these items,put on for next time. tJe're not
stay just for that? I aPologize.
because I said the changes were shown
There's no underlining eiLher ,
next time.
Krauss:
Lre.
Emmings: Okay, and that's all. Then
the landscape ordinance ue'll have Lo
going to do it tonight. Did somebody
Aanenson:
i n bold .
No, it's probably betier
You probably noticed.
Emm i ngs :they weren't there.No,
c^Aaneneson:
APPROVAL OF
I'll go back for the
HINU TES :The Minutes of the P.Ianning Commission meeting dateC
JuIy
CITY
17, L99]. urere noted as is
COUNC IL UPDATE:
Emmings; Then we've got the report from the Director which we've all read
and enjoyed. Then we've got sign-ordinance amendmenL and that's going to
have to go onto our next agenda. tre'Ve got news and blues Nhich I thought
lJas ver/ funny'. ThaL's someLhing I get because I'm Lhe Chairman '
Ahr€ns: We didn't get that.
conrad moved, Erhart seconded to adiourn
and Lhe motion carried. The meeting was
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
the meeti n9 -
adjourned at
AII voted in favor
12:15 a.m. -
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
MEMORANDU}I
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUB.T:
Planning Comnission
Paul. Nrauss, Planning Director
August 15, 1991
Report froD Director
At the City Council neeting of August 12th, the folJ.owing actionswere taken:
L
2
The wetland alteration perrnit for the realignment of the south1eg of Hwy. L01 and west 78th Street detac-hment tor tUe cityof Chanhassen was approved on the consent agenda.
Th" zoning ordinance amendment to define/clarify bed andbreakfast establishnents was approved, however, it -was pufiedfron the. consent agenda by councihnin worfnair. cor,rrLi1..r,workman indicated that he t ould prefer to have a flexibl.estandard relative to the nurnber of perrnissible bedrooms in abed and breakfast facility that ties it into the size of thesite. He indicated that he would work with staff to .aa."=,this rnatter prior to second. reading of the ordinance.
F1!?1 plat approval with revj.sed conditions for TroendleAddition, located south of pleasant View Road and west ofVineland Forest,, applicant, Frank Beddor. Th; ff"nni"gCornmission.nay well remenber this site. Access ,.= . p.i.i.{consideration with this. proposal . A conceptuaf acce3s liiir$ras approved for adjoining properties in this area with theVineland Forest subdi.vision. This plan showed the ultinateextension of Nez perce ttrough the Vineland Forest p"r""f,vrhat is now being final platted for the Troendle Addit-ion andover the adjoining parcel ovned by Art Orrens, connecting up toPleasant View Road at peaceful Lane. The iroendle aaiait.ionplat conforns to thi-< - concept, howeveri at the planning
Conrnission neeting and later at ttre City Councif neeting, igroup of residents along Lake Lucy Road to the south raisedconcerns about the tenporary impacts of traffic on theirstreet. ft hras their concern that until the through roaa iiconstructed, all traffic would have to use their st-reet. The
3
PRINTED ON RECrcLEO PAPER
tf,).t!7
Since the January meeting, staff has had several neetings withthe applicant. They had a concern that this condition wasunfair from the standpoint that the city rrouLd be in facttying the applicantrs ability to develop the property on the
future actions of an independent party. Secondly, they e/ere
concerned that building a project in two phases would increasetheir costs for streets and utilities significantly. Staff
felt these concerns had nerit and an alternative condition was
developed to respond to these matters. Under the current
proposal, 12 of the lots would be developed initially, with
the rernaining 3 lots located in an outlot. AlL streets and
utilities would be installed at the present tine and previous
conditions requiring notices in chanqe of title of the street
extension, a temporary cuI-de-sac and a barricade with a sign
indicating that the street extension was expected Irere to be
cornplied with. In addition, the city Engineer did apreliminary study to estirnate costs for the extension of the
road to Pleasant view that l^rou1d be assessed back on the lotsin the Troendle Addition. uuch of the cost of this road lrould
be placed upon whoever developed the owens i property, but aportion of this cost would be shared with the lots in the
Troendle Addition. By the City Engineerrs calculations, thetotal assessment rrould be approxirnately $10,000. The
applicants have agreed to escrow the $10,000, in a fund held
by the city, to be used for the construction of this street.Staff recommended approval of the plat Irith the revised
condition.
Area residents continued to raise concerns regarding
developrnent of the plat without the through street. Staff
indicated that rre continue to be unconfortable Linking an
individual r s ability to develop their property with the
independent decisions of a party not involved with the pIat.
We did, holrever, suggest to the city council that they mayrrish to approve the item tonight and ask staff to bring theguestion of the road extension back before them in 18 nonths
so that it can be re-evaluated ai that tine. At the presenttirne, it would be difficult to condenn the right-of-way to
complete the road connection since the Owens i property is inbankruptcy court. The City Council ultinately voted to
approve the plat as proposed by staff with the provision thatthe road extension be brought back up before then in 18
months.
Planning Commission
August 15, 1,99 L
Page 2
Council took this into consideration over the course of two
meetings around the first of the year. They ultinatelysettled on a condition wherein only six lots in the TroendleAddition, four of which would access off of the extension of
Nez Perce, lrould be built in the first phase. Under thecondition, the second phase containing the renaining 9 lots
could not be developed until the road \ras constructed throughto Pleasant view Road.
Planning Cornmission
August 1,5, 1,991
Page 3
o e terns tere
4. Site plan review, replat and pUD amendnent for Americanaconnunity Bank in the Market'square Shopping Center. Sincethe last Planning Cornnission neeting, staff lrorked at greatlength with the applicant to address the architeciuralconcerns that were raised by the ptanning Cornnission. Thecity council was able to review a conpletLly revised set ofbuilding elevations that, in our opinion, lesponded in anextremely positive way to aLl the cornments that were raised.The entire feel of the building has been changed. Thebyilding will incorporate two bJlcony structurej that aresirnirar in sorne ways to those that are lrovided on the MedicarArts Building.. The roof 1ine has bee-n changed using largergables. Additional windovs have been provided with iwnings,adding color as requested. Finally, -the nain entrance wasrevised to nake it more inviting ant conforn to the 25 footsetback requirement. -Staff supported the revised plans andreconnended that. they be approved by the City Council. TheCity Council ultimately votea to appirove the -proj ect ,oitf, tfr"revised plans and were fairry conpl-imentary o-n tieir comnentsregarding the structure. they itso discirssed tfre pioposeawest 78th street nedian cut at some length. They sirppbrteathe inclusion of the nedian cut in thi finar "i,"riii"ti""documents for the west zSth street rearignnent wrricrr wirr uebuilt next spring. They did, hohrever, lsk that staff takethis matter before the city's HRA for their comments since trreroad reconstruction is a progran adrninistered out of ta*incrernent funds.
Staff is attending August 15, 1991, HRA neeting to review severaliterns of interest to the pranning 6ornrnission. -rir" ii.=i".oi"".r=prelirninary test case efforts relative to the Hwy. 5 visioningstudy that the city. -is- entering into with tfre universiiy ofMinnesota. The ERA w_lr1 -!e. pr""i"-ninji test case ot lrre -c-omputer
graphics technique. The university ot- ninnesota staff members haveprepared a visuar analysis of city Halt and the area rying betweencity Ha1l and l{est 78th street with alternative lina u'.E J""".rio=being illustrated. staff wirl keep the pranning c"mui"sion-oo.t"aas to the. progress and a schedule by which you will be ai1" tointeract in this process.
The second natter is that one member of the city councir and anember of the HRA have been pressing for revised ioof lines to beincorporated onto th-e lrarket squaie shopping center. -- -proj.ect
architects have deveroped some arternate- Lce-narios uut ai ttrispoint it is uncrear as to whether or not these r.ri1I be incorporateadue to the short time before construction wilr begin and aaaiiionarcosts that r.rould be incurred. Again, staff- wirl-keep the rianningCornmission posted as to the prog:ress on this matteri
REVTSED AUGUST 2t, L99L
OTHER
2.1995 Study Area (South)
ITEMS
1,. Blending ordinance
2. Rezoning BF Dist. to A2
Bluff Protection
Ordinance
4. sign Ordinance
Tree Protection ordinanceMapping of significantvegetative areas
6. Rezoning 2l Acre Lots to RR
STATUS
Joint PC/CC/I{!,.I, Corridor BusTour held on June 8, 1991.Entering into contract withUniversity of Minnesota staffto work with city on the study.
Inactive
3 Draft to
Comrnission
June 19, 1991.in August.
Staff directed to developscenarios - 1ow priority
Staff directed to draft apotentiaL new zoning districtordinance. Fish & Wildlife andDNR have agTreed to expandrefuge boundary to include a1IIand lying south of Hwy.t69/2L2.
the PlanningPublic Hearing
second hearing
Staff is proposing that a workgroup be established by thelilayor to begin work inSepternber. program to becompleted by early summer,L992.
MnDNR conpleted napping progranand wiLL work with clty- todevelop. New ordinance laterin 1991
5
Schedule public
August, 1991.
hearing in
consultant intervidwsconducted. Bonestroo, Anderlik
and Rosene selected. Work wiIIbe started this surnmer pendingsuccessful contractnegotiations .
7. wetland ordinance
ONGOING ISSUES
comprehensive PIan Issues
1. 1995 Study Area (North)
and Hwy. 5 Corridor Study
9.
L0.
Group ho.ne ordinance
Rural Area Policies -
13.Pc input in Downtown
Planning and Traffic Study
Review of Architectural
Standards to Promote High
Quality Design
14.
11,. Landscaping standards
L2. PUD ordinance
In January we receivednotification fron the MnDNRthat we are a priority
cornrnunity rrith a 2 year
deadl ine
19 91,/ongo ing
199L
7991/1992
FaI1, 199l/winter, 1992
15.Btuff Creek corridor
Greem{ay
16. Modifications to beachlot
ordinance - Re: Non-
conforming beachlots
* change in status since last
report
8. Shoreland Ordinance
1991/ inactive
city request to elininate
rninimum 1ot size requirementshas been subnitted to lletrocouncil. ordinance revisions
required'.
Planning Commission 8/7 /9L.city council adoption early
septenber.
Adopted by cc. I{ork continuing
on Residential PUD standards.
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
IIEMORJANDI'M
Tg: P1anninE CoDmlssion
FRou: Paul Krauss, planning Director
DATE: Augtust 2, L99L
SURT: Sign ordinance Amendments
The Planning coromissi-on and city council. have on several occasionsrequested that staff.. undertake a progran to update our signregulations. over the course of -seferat reviLws, =iiir n.=repeatedr.y indicated that our sign ordinance is p"".r] aia-it1a ana]l our opinion inadeguate to aeil ,itr, ti,. rinas oi J"r"iopr"r,tthat we .are ex,erielging. UntiL recently, I nav" Ueen
-=lrnewnat
reluctant to start this task due to ttre coiraittr""t ""a =tiii tir"r believe would resul! I-.:p doing this jou propeiiy. -iiovevEi, wittrthe recent addition of Kathryn ainenson- to -ouf staif , lre are nor^, ina position to nove forward- on this worr pr"liim.' "iai-rr!" rr."excellent experi.ence in- prcparing ordinancei oi ttris tolic ia"ingrecently conpleted one for the co-nrnunity she worked tor in Utan.
Attached to this memo. is a.prelininary outline and work progran forthis.project. It anticipatLs that apiroximately ten ,"ntir"'"iff U"required to conplete the work.
r an currently asking the pr.anning cournission and city councir forsone direction on how w_e should oiganize trre group-w"iri"q""i tt i"ordinance. The nor,.al course of action i6 roi .a;;i- t-o worx
-through the.planning connission on the drafting "r "., "rai-"-""""..we are willing to do it.in this Danner, howev6r, ,r;-;"ii;;; therenay be a better alternative for several reasons. First oi "il , tt"Pranning commission rrorkroad wilr continue to grow over t1e coningnonths as the recession eases and peopre regin io i"i"-ia"i"tig" "rthe MUSA line relocation.- rhe prinning cofinissio" ii"" rri=l u"xrog of work tasks awaiting attention. secondry, =i!n oiJin..,""sare highly specif ic docunents and we berieve tait -r-J. tt "i"t" u"prepared in a rnanner that adequately accommodates the needs ot lottrthe co:nmunity residents and t-he business coruaunity, tt.[ ,o.. ,,or,-Planning corunission representation would be .ppi"pii.t".Therefore, I am reconmgldlnS that a work group Ue estiffi3hed bythe nayor. we hrourd anticipite reconmending to-th. ,iv", l-rrli trri=
Planning Conmission
August 2, l99l
Page 2
work group include two nembers of 'the Planning Commission, one ortwo nenbers of the City Council, a member of the Chamher of
Conmerce or other group representing the downtorrn business
cornrnunity, and possibly a responsible person fron the signindustry. we have several individuals on the Planning Conmission
who have a desigrn background which nay prove to be of particular
use in this process. Should the Planning Conmission agree withthis s/ork group approach, I rrould reconnend that you pass along the
nanes of interested individuals and your cornnents to the mayor forfinal action at an upconing counciL rneeting.
XEHORANDUH
TO!
FROX 3
DATE :
SUBJECT :
I have nade a tentatlve outl.lne forI feel ,the vhole process vlll takenlne nonths to a year. please
directlon you uould llke to take.
Paul Krauss
Xathryn Aanenaon
JuIy 1?, 1991
Proposal for glgn Ordlnance Revlston
reurltlng the
appr ox l nate 1yIet ne knos
stgn ordlnance.
It thls ls the
1
2
Neet uith the City Councll and pl.annlng Connlsslon for thelrrecoumendations for any changes or speilflc areaa of aor,""irr.Have then nokn the reyrlte process.a. Shoy rrhat, suunarlze, vhat other connunltles uae fors19n standards.b. Brlng ln a professlonal expert regardlng trendls ln thes19n lndustry.
Set up a connittce that voutd tnclude nenbers of the chanbe!,Clty Councll and planning CoEnlssion (others they nay ,ini-[oincludle: people fron the slgn lndustry, retallini an&connerclal leaslng) to revrlte the ordtnance.
set up regulat uork sessions vtth the countttee to get theordlnance revrltten. (Approxlnately 6 nonths)
3
5
Sollclt connents fron the publlc and prlvateforvard these to the plannlng Connlsston andcouncll. (One nonth)
Public hearing before the planning Connlsslon and theCouncll and adoptlon of nev ordlnance. (One nonth)
clty
4.Sector andthe clty
OCTOBER
Establ lsh
Couu l tteeto revr lte
ord l nance
Heet sith Plannlng
Comnission and Clty
councll to rto.K.n
revr lte process
RevIev other
connunity standards,
lndustry trends
SEP TEHBER
P lann I ng
CotrDlsslon andclty counc 11
Publlc Hear lngs
JUNE
SoIlct coanents
fron the Publ Ic
antl Prlvate Sector
HAYNOVEMBER -APRI L
Revrlte dur lng
Breakfast or Lunch
Ilork Sess l ons
Adlotpt l on of
neu s lgn
ortl inance
JULY
Ptoposetl fork Schetlule for the Slgn Ordlnance
CITY OF
CII[l{H[E$EN
690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
I recently received a copy of your June 10, 1991, lefrer to the Mayor and City Council conceming the Bluff
Creek Corridor Study and Management Plan (copy attached). As you are aware, the tour of Blui creek o,which you spoke was organi2ed.by lhe Chanhassen Planning Department in the interest of promoting the
creation of a program to protect this valuable and sensitive resource. We were gratiried to see your interestand participation in out tour and your continued interest as retated to us by y6ur letter. On b"t att ot tt"City of Chanhassen, I wish lo state that we would look forward to working wilh ttre Watershed Oi.rr"t onprotective measures lor lhe Bluff Creek Conidor. I believe that this ls an eiremely timely work program forlhe Watershed District to undertake ln cooperation with the City, both since tt is needed and alsosince weare currently in the process of inithting a fve year program lo protect the City's water resources. I havealready called Bob Obermeyer to discuss this matter with him o/er the phone and wouto no[ ionrvaro toworking with you and your slaff in developing a ghnt program in this area.
Please corvey our support of this proposal to your Board and I will do the same to my city council as wefl
as to the Task Force thal will be established to work on the Chanhassen Surtace Water Minagement plan.
August 5, 1991
Mr. Conrad Fiskness, Chairman
Riley Purgatory Bluff Creek Watershed Oistrict
Barr Engineering/Mr. Bob Obermeyer
Suite 100
7803 Glenroy Road
Minneapolis, MN 55435
Dear Mr. Fiskness:
si
Paul Krauss, AICP
Director of Planning
PK:v
pc: /ctty councn
Planning Commlsslon
Charles Folch, City Engineer
ly
PRINTED ON RECrcLED PAPEH
lD).t!7
fi lt
Ri ley- Purgatory- B luff Creek Watershed Di strict
Engineering Advisor: Barr Engincering Co.
- 7803 Glenroy Road
Minnapolis, MN 55435
830-0555
kgal Advisor: Popham, Hail. Schnobrich & Kauftnan
3300 Piper Jaffrey Towcr
Minneapolis. MN 55402
33348m
June 10, 19 9I
f^^t- c./'.,* ;, aL
sA/'-'. / d; a
)/,,- nJ n/ & /
t4,s *o^-(. <,5e1 7
Ittayor Chmie1 ancl Counci 1
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive
chanhassen, l{N 5 5317
Dear Mayor Chmiel and Council:
As an outgrowth of the f ielct trip attended by the Members of
the City Council anct area residents, the lt{anagers of the
Riley-Puigatory Creek by resolution suPPort Prompt action to
develop a management plan to guidle the e:pectedl urban development
of the Bluff Creek watershed anat to insure the protection of the
natural areas antl the identification of the uPstream water storage
sites to protect the creek valley from adverse imPacts of
urbanization.
The District's reviseil 509 Ptan pendling before the llinnesota
Boaral of water anil Soil Resources includles basic water managementprojects that would be the subject of the study anil p).an. Delays
in securing State Boardt approval of the revision to the District's
water management plan shoultl not delay the Priority attention which
the litanagers believe must be given to the Bluff Creek Watershedl. A
management plan to be jointly adlministerett by the City anil
watershed District is considereit a priority item andl the lrlanagers
are requesting that the City Council give considleration to funding
on a 50-50 basis, a plan that can be used to guide development-
r-iECE|VED
JUN 13 t99l
ctTY OF CHANHASSEN _
.L -1
Re: Btuff Creek Riley Corridor Studly & Dlanagement Plan
oure File No. 3825-001
litayo r and Counci I
June 10, 19 9I
Page 2
If the City Council of Chanhassen is amenable to thissuggestion, pl-iase contact our attorney, Raymondl A. Haik, so that acooperative agreement can be prepareil for funiling of the study.
Very truly yours,
€r^.-,4
Conraal Fi sknes s
Cha i rman
CF/ch
cc:
LSAZRAH/93
Bo a rdl of Managers
Ron Harnack, State Water Resources BoardBarr Engineering
Ia)rmond HaikEric RothPerry Dean
EII.TNH[SEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
JuLy 23, 1991
!Ir. Thomas w. Green
Ui1ls Fleet Farlo
P.O. Box 5055
Brainerd, MN 554 01
Dear Mr. Green:
I received your note regarding the Ryan construction projects in
chanhassen. The article was sonewhat premature since neither
project has been approved nor even submitted to the City for reviel,yet. However, you should also be alrare of the fact that these
sites are located considerably east of the property that Mills
Fleet Farin has purchased and both are well vithin the newly
expanded MUSA Line. I have enclosed a nap illustrating the two
areas for your review.
Please feel free to contact ne in the future if you need additional
infornation on this or other matters.
Paul Krauss, AICPDirector of Planning
PK:K
pc: Administrative section, city Council Packet, August L2, L99L
Planning Commission Packet, August 7, L99L
CITY OF
S incerely,
oilILLS
. TTO/{AS Vr'. GREEN
:r ! i.aJrei S.. - p.O Bo, s.q<
i
-' ",i; ji';;;1'",s*oi"
iluly 17, l99l
T0: paul (rauss _ City of Chanhassen
I noticed this article ipaper on ,ruly 16. nn.""n
tn" rrrinneapolis
reration ,. L,,".,"inil]::t;i is this in
lfs
Enc .
Tom Green
f.JCEIVED
JUL 1 8 t99t
CITY OF CHANHASSEN,
Tuesday/July 16/1991,/Sta? Tribune
Ryan to develop
Ghanhassen sites
lyan Construction Co., Minneapo-
lis, said it had entered iirto aevetirp
ment agreements with two land-in-
vestment-partnership gxoUps to de-
velop 170 acres in Chanhassen.
The land will be used to develop two
multimillion-dollar business parks,
i-ncluding the Chanhassen Corporate
Center on nearly 100 acres west of
downtown on Hwy. 5. The second
development, the Chanhassen Busi-
ness Center, will be south of the first
development. Both sites will be
ready for development early nextyear. , ,
Paul Kauss, Phnnim Oictot
Mfiib€rs of the Planning Cdrrnirsbn, Cty of Charrrassdr
T€ny ffiorg, Lundgron Brothers CorBir.
Subj€ct: Ortenblad and Ersbo Prop€.ti€s devd@rnem on Lak€ Lncy Road W Lut(lgren Brothsrs Constrrctlon
Dear Paul, M€mb€rs ot the PhnnirE Cfimissbn, and Tsry:
lsLpport:
'1. The PUD conc€pt in this case as a ll€xbl€ tool to 'sonsltiwly d€wlop lfi€ ar6a', lk€ nanow' roa6, to Fr€s€rve
nattf,al teatuss and willlile h tn large pond, and to us€ 'n6w and cfiipdent wa!,s to p€v€flt rurbnls frqn
enterirE llke Lucf . To work around a wo€fulty ina@uate ts€s redacsnent fidinarica, a m(re sglsbl€, a€Er€ssf€
r€placsment dan sholJH be propc€d fa thb ard ftrwe devdsrnonts h k€qrrE with spitt of the n€w
Co.nprghomive Plan.
2. MakirE the vcater level of wetlard #1 dseps and &ain aknost €ntkdy i.rto the Lako Lrrcy wdtrsh€d.
3. PmirE auats Wality in th6 tront seaf . Accqding to th6 1990 anabrsis of L*e Lucy done by lrlsErm€ntal
Researdt for the L. LtEy Ho.neowngs Assoclation, 'ne$, dwelopmonts will no€d to be swed by stdmwats holding
ponds whicfi have tho d€sirn€d capacity to abso6 nutrients b€tcrg they r€ach Lake U.sl.' Wtinen by D€a Hogan, a
resp€ct€d lake biologist, this staternont on th€ m€asu€s ne€d€d to prot€ct rhe wat€rsh€d fto.n tuth€r clslin€
supports the n€ed lq the cronc€rt€d ofiort b€irE don€ to do the right thirE fs wat€r $.Elity.
Concarr6 and Ou€stbns:
2. ls lt aw@rid€, safe, c ev€n legal to fill in wahn& jus{ so mor6 houses can b€ put in? Lot 1 next to Lab Lucy
Foad, and lots 10 and 13 on th€ south skle indirate propc€d hous6 ovtr propG€d wethrds fill.
3. There are no clear wal€t quality goab. lf r@lainirE a'dying'pord b wtrat we are to bdisvE, then lhere stDUH b6
realistic goals, baselino wds chsnbfy data, a bicassay lakefl in exbtirB and proposed w€tlands, and a r€asonabl€
monito.irE and maintenance program. Based m tlpi:al MPCA ard DNF data for bodi6 of wa€r, I would lke to s€o
tho mininm dala corsist o, total phGphffus, tirdahl nitrogen, anmonh niEogsn, nitsde nirogen, total al€linfty,
pH, arld dissolved oxy!6n, wat€r d€dh and darfty. Bio-assays shouu corisist of gn€rgsnt ard sribangg€rt
v€getaion [p inlo th€ shoreland zon€s, basic miroo,ganism ard wildtile popnhtions.
/t. What b the logiEl basis to assune tha nrtient lev€b will be reducrd frfii this d€vetemont by 8inply lueasing
the wAer voll,m€ ot ttre pond and 'd€rtsingf iH a p€.clfiage ci th€ nutrbnts trdn the slte? The rnalrr coril?brjta
today lo the sunmer algae and duckwe€d blodns ar6 the larg€ quantiti€s of n tri€nts ln th6 water r€l€as€d fro.n
sediments and decaying oganic matter. lt s€flls logiral that duckweed Uoo.ns will co.tinu€ and ths pond will stilt be
"dying' because none of existing nutiertl-rici s€diments are b6ing r€moved. Won't decaying leaves that fall in and
nutients that escap6 th€ 'clsansirE' prcess of th€ holdirE poflds guararte€ that nurient levels will actually g€t
worso? lf nutrient levels ar€ not adually r€drced on a cofltinuous basis, th€n hoiy can th6 watersh€d be proteci€d
frqn excess nutrients, or th€ esth€tic p.obl€m of duckwe€d disapean (cootinJ€d)
Afts hearing other colnrn€rts in July 17th's htdmatbnalmo6tirE, the tollowing corEsns wse refin€d. I have
confiderre they will b€ add€ssed since the d€vdopd ard th€ city s€fii to be serEitir/e and r6ponsiv6 lo the pdlic.
1 . lt se€ms lhe PUD b abo beirE us€d to allow urd€rsized lots and s&ad(s, and cred€ an unacc€daHy high
cro dirE of single tamily hones. Althotgh I reognizo the need to be fioxbl€ m lot configtratiors, p€rmtting a
higtlar d€nsity of houses by sa6ifcing w€thnG and th€ most valuabl€ rees in th6 northwest cfins shouU not b€
allowed. Sdacks and treathirE spaco'shot ld be similar to the srourdi E ar€a. 'ClusterirE hdn€s'was
msntioned as an opportun y, so wtty couldnt so.ne 'clusttrod ho.ne' conc€f,s lke shared cogtyard hsn6, be
consider€d to get moro breathing spaco and pressve wetlands and trees, instead of c'ondirE in lots of sirEle family
uniB?
5. What percefitage ot the runofl f,oan th6 de\rdQ.nent h to b€'doarsod', as ths d€vdops prop66? Shot ldn't
€scap6 ol all ntrtrient loadirE irto tho watrshed caljsd by thb dovoloprnoril b8 p.ot di6d? B€caus€ ot the
e)g€rimental nature ot th€ wats qrality co.fiol sdsno, sholdd the dty g€t any ldrd d scord Qhk n b€fr€
approving the plat? Will thse bs any grlarano€s wats qualty goab wlu bo mor? Who should bo r€sporBilrlo il
gpab ile not met?
6. HOw hav€ c,ther m€thods ol rdnovfiig nufionts bo€n cotlsir€red, srch as oxcavAirlg' nd d€dging, the
s€dimenls in pond #1, C d€srgning it to sLppor{ a mde bahncad, etrobic, hoalhy aquAic sosy6tsn' cr€ated
wilh the hop of an aerator. Asatcs ars rol,wr to ke€p sd{ d€an by dacanpcing orgEnb matthl and making
ptrosphorrE avaflabto to th6 tood dtah u,hl$ can b3 han Et€d by sinply cddirlg fish and psiodirty ronwirg
cstain v€gstation. How abod th€ dhg as@ af trevonthn - €dLEation?
7. ln pond #1 today, br€oding wat€rtoud lose atnct ell y!um, probably to pr€datss. ll one lnt€il ot rnproving
pond #1 b to €stabtish hoahhy watsfowl br€€dino, wouldnt c'eding bre€ding ielards h tho mkld€ ol the opon
wat€f hep? what b the opthun @rBsy4ion zono sizo ne@ fu wiblit€ h hdq/ards ahfiting tte pond?
8. Dr. Cooper, the wat€rrowl 6,Qorl d the 'u, sa),s thd canadlan geese wll b.€€d u,hge theots a mowed lawn
trandy for grazing next to the wats. Gse dc[lt tBt th€re now, btlt dld(s do, ard geco h8w boen a paceiv€d
pori,, ri resueris on Lake Lucy with lawns. cot ld o. shot ld a ooGe probl€.n be avoidod by d€sign? tl so'
ho#?
g. Mr. svoboda saiJ that cattats €rd, h watd d€pth d 0lo 3 ,€6t, whit app€ars to bo t}E d€dfi h €x,% d mco
or proposeo pono #t. lt cattaib ae artifichlv dablstt€d, and txrrbnr hveb h th€ sodin€nE rfi|ain tIgh,
wouldnt catrails evenhrally covs m6t d tho podr, olininding Qsn wat€. habtet and ruin 6thd'r qualitiG thd
are suppced to bo pr€sen ed q creatd h flo ffi daco?
10. Soit disturbance n€ar tha wetlands wu frdably cause plrde loG6rffo to get a new rtatt as I dU h Cfiy
Farms. Th€r€ should b€ assurarE6s lor rsnoving i with the props DNH pe'mlts b€fff6 I gEts a hdhdd ard
ruins nearbY wethnds.
11. Th€ state's new nonetJoss hurs iof p.otstllg wethnG rnat(e i doat |or nor <bvdorrnenB thete has to b6
at l6ast a 2: I ratio fo. replacino Ust wstlinds with wethndb ol €qual value wlthin tfi€ -da'dopm6nt'
NAflly c'€al€d
wetlands also b€ome p.otded. what grool b th€re that the n6w law would b6 mot? can s€dinent houim
porros ue tegarty count€d as leplacernent w€tlanG r 0Ey ere sevsoty distrrbed wh€n s€dtrnonB q' vagetdion
"ra
rrr*.0 tr6, them pefiodi.:ally? Wonl th€y lose &€ir r€plactnent valu€? Are thg,€ atry oths m€tho(b to
i*o* *rnia,,ta that nouldn't break any watano pa*rion hws? Hor, abou sucldtlo ou tha sedim€nts u'lB|
ai*"i.."nir*V? what if Ctsan-Fb aeratc6 wq6 pl3cEd in de€p 'trcl€s' h fi€ two UgE6' pords wih a m61'e
. #rpue msysiem, ard a psiodic 'g€il|€' harvosting ot sflte sna'g€ri.v€glryt tn ttt€Jty]rp ponds' wre
Used to interc€f, and rernove nutrienrti? Cl€an-Flo eg1,do.s (Hopkins, Mlq havo b€otl p.o\'il to m'tirate fE
n,rt i"nt anO oin"r'c problerns ln hundre& ol small pords skr lat to ths ql6 h thb dwelrynert. A pond h
Shorewmd shared by private rosironts on tho 6asl sid€ d POuss Bl\itl has an ag^atq, f,thich k6€po I real dOan'
1 2. Aaess lo tfi€ holdirE porxb to d€an thm wltt t ig machhe-y may bo difficul r tlista,Ea, slop6, ts'E'
tandscaping or wild v€getatbn hindss i. How can ttb b3 solv€d? wotl't the wildlif€ living in tfi€se holdim ponds
anO tf,e fni"eo*n€6 Slink ol thb as a radl, kln sion? lS meCfianlCal means th9 most ep€nsiv€ way to halvest
nrfianf. fr*, houing pofib? ft se€rns h fh€ b€st hte€st d aI tho ta&ayoB h Chanhassen to d6igl a nlt,l€'lt
r€.Iroval syslern sxtremoly car€fulv so w€?e not iacod vrth high r€artino cosrs and ths6 b rootlr ld, tallu.a
withod dastrophe, afd improvsnst w1hcnf malr sug€ry. Cdr16 to thir* o, l, thds anoths reason uhy
aeratbn miglt wofk to. open wars situdbns. lt may be crtoap€r h th€ lono run, end watg quafty goab may ba
assusd.
Pteage advise m6 d arry ftru'e publc moetiEs m thts d€vdoFletr by mal. thar* yot . sirrcsoly'
RECE|VE$ :
"Er"Ri"tin,r695srtethG.E:rcebb,MN JUL 931991
CITY Ui r"n^'"'a>SiN -
CITY OF
CII.TNH[EEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . PO. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
July 17, 1991
Mr. Earl Heitz
American Legion post #5BO7995 Great Plains Boulevard
Chanhassen, llN 55317
JO:v
Dear Mr. Heitz:
This letter is to confirn that paul Krauss, planning Director, hasapproved your adninistrative site plan reguest *91-4 for therecreational area at the American Legion sitL. rt is understoodthat the 75 ' x 60 r x 65 r recreationar area wirr be located withinthe parking lot directly east of the American Legion builcling. Therecreational area will be used for pig roasts, horseshoes-, etc.The parking area which wilr be conveited to the recreationai .."ais not used by the L€gion and the renaining parking arei liov:.aesadequate parking for the Legion.
The -site plan is approved with the condition that a 5 foot highwood, 100t opaqlue, fence will be constructed around therecreational area and the fence will be painted the sane coio, .=the L€gion b}rilding. since there is no aiea for landscaping iroundthe fence without renoving a fire lane-, staff is e:.ininaiing thelandscaping condition. A fence pernit is required and can beobtained thrgugfr the Buirding Depa-rtnent. you .!ray contact steveKirchnan, Building official, io initiate the fence f"rnit !i"c".s,
Enjoy.your new recreational area and call us should you have anyquestions.
S incerely,
=iaf>r-w-r q>?,*
Jo Ann OlsenSenior Planner
pc:Paul Krauss, Planning DirectorSteve Kirchnan, Building officialPlanning cornrnission
Jurre , l99l
HOOK.UP FREES UP
LAND IN CHANHASSEI
Go "o**rtorbacity.E*l In Chanhasrn, rlre lorg.araircd
conne.tion of thc metropoliEn arca's main
seu'cr line frccs up prc.,buslfundevclopcd
arc:s ofthe cig for ncw building. Thc con-
I Dection was tcccntly approvcd by thc
lrletropolitan Council 8t rhc urging of
Chanhassen officials.
Beforc thc reccssion h hard, 0re emount
of land availablc for dcvclopment in
Chanhasscn uas running scarcc. Thatl
because the MUSA (MerropoliEn U6an
Senice Area) scnrr linc, which is comroll-
ed b) lhc Metro Corncil . uas not hookcd up
to a \asl ponion of s€stcm Chanhasscr. .
"r*'e w€rc do*n to about 90 acres ofland
for neu industrial buildingi'says Paul
Krauss, Chanhasscn's planning direaor.
AIso, only sbout 300 acres uE,! left fot
residential dorlopmcnt. "Bcfor€ tfuncs got
lou8h, we had bccn dc!€lopilg d a rar€ of
about 150 acrcs a ycar. An<l whcn pu haw
vcry feu acrrs lcft, thosc ju$ don't darlo?
sery quickly becausc dewlopen mighr Ddli\c lrhar rhcy scc. and rhcrit lcss land to
choosc fioml'
The MUSA hook-up frces up ebanr l.l@
acrcs for ncw industria.l dcwloprnrm lrd
about 5@ acrcs for ncw rrsidcntiirl darlry
ment. Krauss sarr.
The tr{erropdlitan Council dctc-rmines
u hen to connccr MUSA s.rvi6 !o prwkxrs-
ly undevclopcd rrcas of thc mctropolian
are:. It does nor nant devcloomcnt o lce>
frog its rral- to rhe ourer ponirins of rhc Tuin
Citics area, lcaving undarclopcd aras clccr
to the corc citias. Th5rb a planniry rm
called urban sDrs\r,!.
The sewer
coiureetion
In addition, hoking up rhc ncr lircs is
SpcrEirt, and.wllc-n-dlcrc is rodorloprrErx
in an arca witb MUSA, thcre! no rrcnuc
coning_in-by uzy d lsscssirig uscs, ssys
Annc Hurlbun, managcr of ihc counciit
corprchcnsiw planning rrxl local r(si<r",!'t
6lvlslon.
In making 6cir casc ro rhc Mcrro Ccriil
ortr the las couplc of6:rs, Chanlusscn of-
ficials argucd that hooking up *rsrcrn por-
Oons- of rhcL ciry u,luld not lcad o lcafrog
dewlopmcnr. Chaska, which is frnher urcsr
of Chanhasscn, nas atrcady courcocd rnd
cxpcricnccd cvcn morc of a boom in in-
dusrria.l dcttlopmcnt in rcccnt )rars th8rl is
. casam ncighbc..
. "Wc $oryht it uould bc morc of r filling
tr dlrEas thar u,rrt misscd bcforcl XnG
rys.
Ounlusscnt grordr happcncd escr thmMctm Counc forpcasq Hurlbun :ays.
"Thc gror.rh is csDccially src"av'in in-
duerial;' Hudbun sorr .Thi,r,t ra6cd r lq
oJ JoDs, srd u,t agrccd with thcm thar it nas
time for MUSA scrviccs. -
Whilc on thc surhcc dic scuEr conncdim
codd signal a rltum to rrle population ard in-du*'ial boom Cfunhasscn irirricncoa in trc
1980s, Xrauss s4,s ir probably uont. tn ptQ
Chanhasscn hat 6000 pc6plc and rboui
1000-job6 al Erious busilers&. Todry, d,c;
arc Lll,S@ rcsidcnrs and 6@jobs iriirc ci-tyl trooming indusrrid rrcas; whcrc nlch
gompanics as Rosemount loc., Victory.
Enrclope lnc., rnd McGlynns Bitcry liletcd.
., "We iverc booming ttmost too frst:'xnuss ssys_. "But lbour r ycar rgo, thiphones (in rltc cityl plannin! dcpaforicor)
practically sloppcd ririging. irqr ias rnain-ly due to thc rrccssion. Having thc MUSA
t,nc h@kcd up could hclp spurihings "gain.Bul ht Dor likc ciry oficiatinanr o-oojr trc
doon to megadcvcloprnent. Vy'c havi r rw
comprchcnsiw plar dlat lctb us grqx h rquarrry wBy, protcctinS our uctlands rndncighborhoods:' . . . . _Jot',r&dd .
f : r.
MinnNb neal EJ/,oae lol,,n1(.l