09-4-91 Agenda and PacketFile
AGENDA
CHANHASSEN PINNNING COI,{II{ISSION
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEI.{BER 4, L99l , 7:30 P.M.
CHANHASSEN CITY HAI,T., 690 COULTER DRIW
CALL TO ORDER
PUBLIC HEARINGS
2
Rezoning of property within the city zoned A2, Agricultural
Estate District to RR, Rural Residential District.
Zoning Ordinance Amendment to create a bluff line preservation
section to the city code.
Rezoning of 90 acres of property zoned A2, Agricultural EstateDistrict to PUD, Planned Unit Developnent to create 10industrial lots Located south of the Chicago, Milwaukee, St.Paul and pacific Railroad and east of Audubon Road, Ryan
Construction.
3.
zoning and subdivision ordinance anendnent to amend sections
regarding landscaping and tree preservation requireroents.
..ITEI{ DEI,ETEDT'Zoning ordinance anendment to require non-conforning
recreational beachlots to receive a pernit.
NEW BUSTNESS
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
CITY COUN IL UPDATE
ONGOIN ITEMS
ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAIS
OPEN DISCUSSION
AIfOI'RNMENT
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CH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 5531 7
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
I,IEI[ORA}{DIr!{
TO: Planning Connission
ERO : Xate Aanenson, Planner
DArE: August 28, 1991
SUBT: Rezoning of Iarge Iot SubdivisionB Zoned A2, AgrJ.culturalEstate to RR, Rural Residential
BACKGROUND
This iteu uas on the Planning Conlssion agenda August 2L, LggL.A public hearing uas held but the item was tabled because the
Conmission asked that staff to edd the west 96th Street area and
research any other additional/sinilar subdivisions. The Conmissionalso directed staff to ouit Great Plains GoIf Estates froD the
rezoning.
ANALYSIS
.The West 96th Street area and the Jeurissen Addition were notifiedof the public hearing and the intent to rezone the property.
Another letter was sent to aLL property ouners under considerationfor rezoning. . :.
Pursuant to a reguest fron the Conmission, staff requested OrlinSchafer, Carver County Assessor, to attend the neeting and be
availabLe to ansrer any queatlona regardirg tbe j,rqnct of the
rezoning on tax policies.
The intent of this rezonl.ng is to protect the large rural Iot
subdivisions from possible undeeirable uses.
REcoMtirENpATrON ! ,a'ti-staff reconmends the
notion:
Planning Connission adopt the following
r'The Planning Coumission reconmends approval of Rezoning *91-9 forproperty zoned A2, Agricultural Estate to RR, Rural ResidentialDistrict for the following subdivisions:
ODt,PRINTED ON RECICLED PAPER
CITY OF
Rezoning frotn A2 to IIR
August 28, 1991
Page 2
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Tinbervood Estates
Sun Ridge Addition
country EiIIs
Pioneer HiIIsIake Riley woods NorthRiley Lake l,leadows
Deerbrook
Hesse FarDs
West 96th Street Area
Jeurissen Additionr
ATTACHI{ENTS
. uap of subject rite6.. I€tter to affected property ouners.. Planning Connission minutes dated Augrust 21, 1991.
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CITY OF
cH[NH[SSEI{
August 23, 199L
590 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(512) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
Tinberwood Estates :
Sun Ridge Addition
Country EILISPioneer Hiltg
Lake Riley l{oods NorthRiley l,ake t[eadoes
Deerbrookcreat Plains Estates
Hesse Farnsfest 95th Street tlaaileurl.sseD ldditloD
Dear Property Osmer:
On Wednesday, Septelber a, 1991 at ?:30 p.r., the ChanhassenPlanning Connission wilL continue the pufl ic hearing for thepurpose of naking a recommendation to the City Council regardingthe rezoning of large Iot subdivisions curren[ly zoned A2 to RR.The- neetin-g will be held in the City Council ChaEbers at 690Coulter Drive.
This. rezoning request 1s_. beipq initiated by the planningcomnission. rt came out of discudeions the city hid when reviewin{liniting contractorrs yards in agrlculturar arleas. rtrey-iearizedthat the city has a nunber or"large rot subdivisionJ tnai arecurrently designated A2 which coutr d a110w uses that are notdesirable in a residentiar neighborhood. The intent oi trrisproposed. rezoning is to preserve the character of large lotsubdivisions as single rl.4{ry neiEhborhoods uy rlro-viij trrepossibility of an inappropriate use bling proposed within tlien.
The city has discussed rezoning the large tot subdivisions fron A2(Asriculturar Estare -D-isrricl] ro-RR (nriral Residentiai-oi"iii.t1.currentry there are 11 existing rarge lots subdivisions thit arebeing considered for rezoning. rrresi subdivision. i".r"a.i---
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* Recently Added to List
The intent of the A2 District ls the riprLservation of ruralcharacter whire ^respecting deveropnent. patt6rn" uy iil""i"g .i"gi"fanily residential developroentn. -The i-ntent of tire nn oisirict rs
OD
tJ ,",*ao on REcTcLED pApEB
August 23, L99L
Page 2
xto provide for single fanily residential developments intended for
Iarge lot subdivisionsrr. All of these subdivisions reet the intentof the RR district nore than the A2 district in that they are
neighborhoods with a different identity fron the agricultural areasin which they are focated.
The perDitted uses would remain the sane 1n each zone. Accessory
uses, including agricultural buildings and private stables, are notperrnitted in the RR zone. Both of these types of uses are Eoret)rl,ical of an agricultural area. Private stables require a
conditional use pernit in the RR zone so application could be nadefor that use. The request would require a public hearing and
notices to neighboring properties. Existing stables in the rezoned
area would be grandfathered in.
There are a few other conditional and interin uses allowed in the
A2 district that would not be pernitted in the RR district. These
include:
Bed and Breakfast establishnent
Tenporary uobile Homes
cenetery
Conmercial Transnission Touer
wholesale [urseryElectrical Substationcolf and Driving Range
Group Home for 7 to 16 persons
l,lineral Extraction
The najority of these use pernits would not be appropriate in an RRDistrict, such as mineral extraction, conmercial transmission
tower, uholesale nursery, etc. 'The remaining use pernits that aresinilar or the same for both the RR and A2 Districts are coEmercial
kennels, stables or riding academies, churches and recreational
beachlots.
If you have any questions regarding this proposed rezoning, Pleasefeel free to contact Kathy Aanenson in our Planning DepartDent at
937-1900.
sincerel Y,
LLo,rrz
PauI Krauss
Planning Director
PX:Xa:1
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EH[NH[ESEN
ITE}IORANDT'U
m: Planning Connission
EROU: Nathy Aanenson, Planner II
DArE: August L2, L99L
SURI: Rezoning of Iarge Iot Subdivisions Zoned A2, Agricultural
Estate to RR, Rural Residential.
ANALYSIS
sThe city currently has nine large lot subdivisions located outsideof the I,IUSA line and zoned A2, AgrJ.cultural Estate. lhe Planning
Conmission has discussed rezoning tbe large lot subdivisions fronA2 to RR for the zoning requireroents to better reflect theircharacter. The following are the large 1ot subdivisions and anattached nap shows their Locatlon:
1. Tinbenrood Estates2. Sun Ridge Addition3. Country HiIIs4. Pioneer Hills5. Lake RiLey Woods North
6 . RiLey Iake !,teador,s7. Deerbrook8. Great Plains Golf Estates9. Hesse FaEs
TNTENT
The intent of the A2 District is preservation of .nrral characterwhi.le respecting develophent patterns by a].].orlng single fanilyresidential developnent. The lntent oi the nn -oistrict is toprovide for single fanily residentlal subdivisions intended forlarge 1ot developments. _ The nine large lot su-bdivisions, currentlylocated in the A2 District neets the intent of the RR District uoreso than the A2 District since they are single fanily residentialsubdivisions that are large lot developnLnts identitied as aneighborhood separated fron the surrounding agricultural 1and.
PRINTED ON REC\CLED PAPER
CITY OF
690 COULTER DRIVE' P.O. BOX 147' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 5531 7
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
{
ODt,
Planning Conuission
Rezoning of A2 to RR District
August L2, L99L
Page 2
All of the pernitted uses are the sane between the two districts
except that arboretums are pernitted ln A2 and not the RR District.Since an arboreturo uill not be proposed within the largesubdivisions, the rezoning will not affect the sites in regards topernitted uses.
The RR District allorrs private stables as a conditional use pernit
which is an accessory use in the A2 District. As hentioned above,a private stable is more appropriate as a conditional use in alarge lot subdivision. Of the renaining conditional uses, siroilaror the same for both the RR and A2 Districts, are commercialkennels, stables or ridlng academies, churches and recreational
beachlots .
Interin Use Pennits
There is a much more extenslve list of interin uses pernitted inthe A2 District than is in the RR Distrlct. fhe following is alist of the interin uses in the A2 District which are not pernitted
as interin uses in the RR Digtrlct:
Bed and breakfast establ ishment
Mobile hones
Uineral extraction
churches
wholesale nursery
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COI,IPARISON OF USES BETWEEN A2 AND RR DISrRIETS
Perroitted Uses
Accessorv Uses
Accessory uses are sinilar in both districts. Accessoryagricuitural buildings and private stables are accessory uses inthe A2 District but not in the RR District. Storage building is anaccessory use in the RR District but not the A2 District.Accessory agricultural buildings are used in rel.ation toagricultural use and siIl not be necessary in a large lotsubdivision. Private stables are a conditional use permit in theRR District which would still allou a large 1ot ouner the
opportunity for a private stable but uould require a public hearing
and notices to neighboring properties of such a request shich isappropriate for a single fanily subdiviEion. Itterefore, therezoning rouLd not significantly change the accessory usespernitted in the districts and appropriate accessory uses for largelot subdivisions vould. still be per:ritted.
Conditional use Perrnits
Planning Conmission
Rezoning of A2 to RR District
August 12, L99L
Page 3
Lot Recruirenents and Setbacks
6. Electrical substation7. colf and driving range with or without niniature golf
The naj ority of these interin use pernits sould not be appropriatein an RR District, auch aa rnineral extraction, lonrnlrcia:-transnission tower, whoLesale nursery, etc. These conditional usesare nore appropriate in an agricultural area which is not developedwith. single fanily homes. Therefore, by rezoning the large lotsubdivisions from A2 to RR, the city would be pieserving - theircharacter as a single fanily subdivision by renoving thepossibility of an inapproprlate use being proposed vithil thesubdivision.
The Lot requirements and setbacks for both the A2 and RR Districtare exactly the same. Therefore, the rezonlng of the propertieswould not result in any change in their lot requirenentl. -
SI,II{MARY
staff has notified all of the rot owners nentioned in the rarge lotsubdivisions which would be reviewed for rezoning fron A2 io nnDistrict so that they are aware of what the city is consitering.It will be rnade clear. to the. property ouners th;t this is a cifyinitiated project that rras discuised-uhen the city was i-viewiniliniting contractor'is yards in- .ttr.e city and realize.-d that trre ciifhas a.number of large rot subdivisions and a Dore liberalry zoneddistrict but have the characteristics of a Jingl"-'fanifysubdivision of rrhich the zoning regulations should refiect. upoircornparison of the uses of the two districts, it appears thatrezoning the large Lot subdivisions fron az to nir is an'a'ppiopriatestep and that it rould be lirniting the possibility of ir3es'wrrictruourd not conforn with the rarge lbt subdivisions,- yet "oniirrrrintto allow appropriate uses of the area.
sone concern nay be raised fron residents regarding the status ofcreen Acrea Assess,ent. rn speaking with orrin -shafer, carvercounty Assessor, he stated that residentiar zones ao quailty torcreen Acres. Those lots that guarify or meet the cri€erii i-a",the A2 zoning vould also qualify under the RR zoning.
Planning CoDrtrission
Rezoning of A2 to RR Distrj.ct
August L2, L99l
Page 4
RECOMMENDATION
staff recoDDends the
Dotion:
Planning ConmiEsion adopt the following
rrThe Planning Connission reconnends approval of Rezoning *91-9 forproperty zoned A2, Agricul.tural Estate to RR, Rural ResidentialDistrict for the following subdivislons vithin the city:
Tinbenrood Estates
sun Ridge Addition
country Hills
Pioneer Hills
Iake Riley woods NorthRiley Lake l{eadous
Deerbrook
Great Plains colf Estates
Hesse Farnsrr
ATTAC}IMENTS
l,!ap of subj ect sites.Ictter fron city to subject property ouners.
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CHANHASSEN PLANNING COHMISSION
REGULAR I.iEETING
AUGUST 2L, I99L
HEI,IBERS PRSENT: Tim Erhart,Ladd Conrad, Annette
and Joan Ahrens
EI lson, Steve Emmi ngs ,Brian Batz] i , Jeff Farmakes
STAFF PRESENT: Pau 1 Krauss,PIanning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior
Planner IIPlanner ; and Kathy Aanenson,
PUBLIC ARING:
REZONING OF PROPERTY I.IITHIN THE CITY ZONED A2. AGRICULTURAL ESTATE DISTRICT
IO RR. RURAL RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT.
Public Present:
Name Address
Jane A. Pou I os
David M. HaIIa
Eric Podevels
Bjorg & Jer ry Hendrickson
Don Halla
Mar k HaIla
Har k Danielson
Char iot te Mor r i sonBlair Bury
Suni I Cho jarr
David HalIa: t"lelL, a lot of it
You cofire out and invest a lot ofyou have people come in here andproperty, !hen it doesn't become
Lot 12, Deer broo k
1OO95 Great Plains Blvd.
2OO South Shore Court
9OO Homestead Lane
10 ,OOO Great PIains BIvd.
77O Cr ee kurood
11150 Sumter Circle
1051 Homestead Lane
5537 Co. Rd. 4, Minnetonka
7480 Long Vieur Circle
has been in the past
money in property SO
nou want to tell you
a democracy anymore.
And you know whenyears ago and then
how you can use thatI take strong
55345
Kathy Aanenson presented the staff report on this item. Chairman Emmingscalled the pubLic hearing to order.
David HaIIa: r'm David HalLa. r sold part of this property to my brotherhere ulhen r retired. r kept 70 7,/4 acres for myserf. Nor.J xe've been outhere before tlris was even a city. Uhen it was still a toNnship. Now ofcourse uhen it became a city it had all of these people come in and aIIthis bureaucracy to run everyLhing but these people in the planning
commission don't represent the people. They represent their own politicarlittle aim. The things that we,ve been doing t^rith these large acreageshaven't interferred or caused confl.icts with other peopre. But now they'recoming in and uanting to change the way ne do things and r don't think theyhave a right to do that. But they're going to ram it down our throat and rthink this hearing is probablv going to turn into a dog and pony shor^r justto legitimize their way of coming in the back door and changing thingswithout allor^ring the people to have a say. And I don,t think ihat,s right-r knour the past history of chanhassen! you people rubber stamp everythingthat the Planning people come in and do and that isn't right.
Emmings: It isn't t.rue either.
Chairman Emnrjngs cal.Ied the meeting to order aL 7;40 p.n-.
Planning Commi.ssion t{eeti ng
August 27, 7991 - Page 2
objections to them coming and doing that. Another thing, you've got this
bluff rezoning Lhing. Not, when I built mv house out there, I built mv
house right on the edge of the bluff. I would Iike to know how these
people in the Planning Commission geL the exPertise to telI a homeouner or
a developer how far to have a setback. They don't knou Lhe ground
conditions in each area. I'm sure the)z're not that smart. I think each
Iocation has it's own uniqueness. Now my house is built aPProximately 5
feet from the edge of the bluff. I would have never built it that close if
I had thought that I'd have had a problem buL it took a D6 dozer 3 davs to
dig the basement - That's how hard the ground was. I haven't had any
problems with erosion. I haven't had anv Problems with runoff. f even
bettered it. I took and Planted croun vetch on the hillside which grew a
real good ground cover and Prevented erosion but now they come in with this
rule and say you have to build the houses 30 feet back- Of course I
understancl mine's grandfathered in but the Point of it is' we've got too
damn much government. You know a little common sense like the Vill'age
Fathers in the townshiP u,ent a 1on9 wavs. But now it doesn't seem that
common sense prevails. tJe've got people coming in here with Lheir oun
little ideas and not representing the interest of the PeoPIe and wanting to
ram it down our throaL. The same thing with changing this from A2 to Rural
Residential.
Emmi ngs.: tJhat effect does that change?
David HalIa: It's going to increase the
your taxes and already ule're being Laxed
taxes.out of
It's
house
going to i ncr ease
and home.
Emmi ngs: And
David Halla:
classification
how will it increase your taxes?
NeIl they're going to take auray the Green Acres
when they go to Rural Residential.
Emmings: fs that true?
Aanenson: No that's noL. I didn't mention that but that is in the memo.
I did speak to the orlin Schafer at Lhe county Recorder's office and he
said that the underlying zoning .is not the criteria for Green Acres. They
have a checklist of criteria, one of those being acreage. 5 acres r
believe and the use that they're using has nothing to do r.rith it. It could
be RSF and still quality for Green Acres so the underlying zoning is noL
the criteria that they use.
David Halla: But years ago I used to run registered Angus cattle out there
and I had a pretty good sized herd. Thev change this from A-2 to R
Residential, that's not going to be allowable anymore.
Emmings: That's right. Is that right?
David Halla: And that certainly ulas an agricultural use.
Emmings: Can he run catLle if he's changed to RR?
Aanenson: Agricultural says that they can have cattle and if he continues
to have it, he can.
PIanni ng Commission l',leeting
August 2l , 7991 - Page 3
Emmings: So that's not right
David Halla: Yeah, but not if
Aanenson: No, agricultural is
those criteria.
either.
they change it from RR.
cattle is one of
A-2 to
Davi d
RR.
still a permitted use and
Ha]la: But it's going to increese the taxes when you go from A-2 to
Emmi ngs r
RR?
Krauss: It is but there's something that I'm not certain of here. Uhat'sconfusing me is 3 years ago I believe the HaLla,s had approved a 5 year
variance to the ordinance that changed to 2 I/2 acye lots trhen the Lake Ann
agreemenL with the Hetro Council. [.le gave a couple of variances for plats.Preliminary plats that were filed and they uere given at least 5 years to
come in and final plat the propet'ty. This is the first time tonight thatue've heard, well it's in a letter from Don HaIIa that there's no intentionto subdivide the property I think I read until the turn of the century.That is not the understanding that we had with them 3 years ago_ If thatin fact is the position, then we will assume that this is rural land notsubject to the subdivision and there uron,t be any inherent grandfatheringfor those 2l/? acre LoL.. t^,e're more than willing to do that.
Emmings:: OI(ay, so .if they don't want lhat land changed tosay they'rc not- p.l.anning to develop the property. GeL outarrangement that presently exists and keep it agricultural .you're: saying?
RR, theyof the
Is that
could
w hat
Krauss: Sure -
Emmings; Alright, so they basjcally have a choice to go one way or theother? okay. So uJe've addressed two concerns of yours is the tax andusing it for agricultural purposes. Do you have any other specificproblems with changing it or can you tell us hor.r else you think Lhis mightnegatively affect you? The change from A-2 to RR.
David HaIIa: I sold this property
busi ness .
Lo my brother ulhen I retired from the
Emmings: So it's his problem?
David Halra: rt's his problem urith the subdivision. Hourever ,,Lhe ro r,/4acres that ve got are divided into 3lots that go with the subdivision.Now r don't intend to bevelop that into 3 lots. r",homev"r r serr it to, andr hope r can seII it and get the hell out of Minnesota as soon as possiblebut whomever I sell it to then has the priviledge'of developing those othertwo lots into additional acreage out of this 10 L/4 acyes. So if mybrother wants to drag this thing out and procrastinate, that's his businessbut then f become the victim if he doesn't perform.
Emmings: And how does the change from A-2 to RR affect any of that?
Is his property one of the ones that is being changed from A-2 to
PIanning Commission t4eet i ng
August 27, l99l - Page 4
David Hal]a: Nell first of all, they may be telling vou here, these People
in the Planning Commission that the taxes r.Jon't increase but I've talked to
those people down there at lhe Assessor's office and they have told me Lhat
when you changg it from the agricultural to Rural Residential , the tax is
different than HhaL it is on the agricultural rate.
Emmings: Okay, and who'd you talk to there?
David Halla: I talked to Scott, it starts with a N the last name -
OIsen; t^l i nter .
David Halla: t,inter? And I also talked to the main Assessor. In fact we
had a real go around here a while back. I went down uhen my brother did
this f irral plot on the subdivision because I am still involved in tha! to a
degree and r hand carried the Papers in there and saw that all the taxes
weie paicl and everything and it uent through to the registar and all of
this and I was about to go out the door and the accounting office' the gal
called and said hey Mr. Halla. come back here. So I came back and she
said you ot^re $75O.OO for Green Acres change. I said uhat do you mean Green
Acres change? Ar'd he said, well he said according to the assessor vou
only have a 2 l/2 acre lot. I said what do you mean I've only goL a 2 l/2
acre ]ot? I said I've 10 L/4 acYes. I said that qualifies me for Green
Acre5. She said no, it's been changed. so I wenL over to this young fella
r.rho did the' changing in the Assessor's office and I said what did vou do
changing this back here? I said I was over here talking to you not more
than 10 minutes ago and I savs noh,, I says I'm telling that I have to Pay
!b75O,OO for the Green Acres classification. I said that's urong and you
flat out ]ied to ne. I said you urere the one who did it. I said this is
your initials isn't it? He said yeah. I said okay. I said uhy didn't you
i.el I me you had done this? And so then the head assessor came along and he
Iooked at it and he said, vou're risht. He said we made an error and he
went across the street !o the accounting office and told her. He said hey.
He saic he,s got ro l/2 acres here. Not 2 t/2.. He said you had no right
cloing that. And so they changed it all back but that's the same thing that
*.'r. t.Iking about here, tlhen you change it from A-2 to Rural Residential
that changes the classification and the tax base. No!., if these people want
to increase the taxes on everybody that has large land, tlhy don't they have
enough guts to come out and say it instead of coming in the back door?
Emmings: As a matter of fact, in the information they gave us, there's
information here that Lhev talked to orlin Schafer r'lho's the carver countv
Assessor and he says that the residential zones qualify for Green Acres and
that lots thaL qualify or meet the criteria under A-2 would also qualifv
under RR. That's the information ure've got from staff that they got from
the County Assessor. Now you're saying something quite different. I don't
know .
David Halla: Thev've told me that if you
classification to rural residential it's
going to assess you at a higher tax rate.
If they d<:n't know it, they're confused.
change ,i.t from the agricultural
a different tax base and they're
I think these PeoPIe knoh, that.
Aanenson: The mi su nderstandi n9
is there's a minimum 5 acre lotacres, they can apply for Green
size. I think uhat Orlin said
someone's zoned RR and has 5
is the ]otsize so if
Acres.
Emmings: I thought it uas 10.
Aanenson: Haybe it's 10. So if he has 10 then he's fine.you're 2 L,/2 and you 're A-2, then you couldn't get it. Ifacres in RSF you couldn't set it. It's the lot size. Notdesignation. The lot size.
So whetheryou'Ye 2 7/2the zoni ng
David Halla: Yeah but uhat you don't understand young lady is thaL larse
acreages are still Green Acres until it becomes less than 1O acres intotal - Sc, like in my brothers situation where he's got 1OO and some acres.
Emmings: I think she's saying the same thing you are.
David Ha]la: Yeah, he can sell off aII of those lots individually until hegets down to less than 10 acres. At that point or it has to be 10contiguous acres. So after it becomes Less than that, then they 9o intothis rural residential rate which is a higher classification. So if they
come in here and want to do this on these large acres and change it fromA-2 to rural residential, you're going to increase the tax rate no matterwhat they are telling you. f mean that's the bottom line.
Emmings: okay, and f guess you've raised some questions here. Ourmotivation in doing this. Now this move was motivated by us sitting uphere. l.lhen we were urorking on Lhe Comprehensive plan there r.rere someissi.res that came up and it seemed to us to be a good idea to changesubdivisi.ons in the A-2 to RR. t,e thought it was better for thesubdivisiong. NoL motivations about taxes. No motivations about anythingelse. Just that it seemed like it fit better than it does in A-2. Now it
may be that and I gruess I'd stil] Iike to knou if you feel , right noh, you
have control over a parcel that potentially courd hold 3 houses where nowthere'g c,ne. Is that rig,ht?
David HalIa: Correct.
Emmings: And it's presently A-2?
David HalIa: Correct.
Emmi ngs: And I guess
adversely affect you?you negatively?
my question to you
Not your brother.is, will the change from A-2 to RRNot everybody but wiII it affect
David Halla: Yes itto RR.
wilL because it urill increase my taxes going from A-2
Emmi ngs: Ancl you
that tri J. I happenof your land?
thi nk that
immediately
wi II happen, once thisregardless of what you
passed you thi nkwith the devel opmentdo
PJ.anrri ng Commission Heeti ng
August 27, !997 - Page 5
Planni ng Commi ssion Heeting
August ?7, 1997 - Page 6
Davicl Halla: That's correct. And that's why I am adamantly against it andI think some of these large parcels of Iand that are set apart Lhat areunjque lil,e my brother's situation there with a nursery where it's
landlocked with the golf course on one side. tlith the canyons on the otherside. That's not going t'o have a negative effect on the surrounding areas
because it's kind of like an island in itself. It has natural boundariesthat surround it that's separated away from the other residential so. It'sjust Iike the Graffunder that moved down there. Nor.J he uas a city slickerthat come out of Bloomington.
Emmings: I was a cit.y slicker from Minneapolis.
David HalIa: t^te]I okay. [.lhen Dave Teich's pigs would squeal up there athis house, he'd come up there and holler at him that his pigs Here
squealing. t,lhen I had my cattle out tliere and in June Lhe cor.rs get inheat. That's when the cycle comes. The bulls beller. Well he was alwayscalling the Sheriff up and saying Halla's bull are bellering. So finally Itold Lhe Sheriff, f says tell him if he wants to come down and put a muzzle
on thal 2,ooo pound buII, to 9o ahead and do it. I mean I think some of
these things are a little bit asinine to come in and say hey, we're going
to categorically change all of this stuff now from A-2 to Rural
Residential. Limit the use on everything when some of these areas are
unique amongst themselves. I think you have to judge each individual area.
You juet can't calegorically 90 across the board and say hey. Thi6 is
right for everybocly.
Emrri ngs: Let's back up. You said ]imi! the use. This !.ron't ]imit the use
of your ]and or do you feel that it uiII?
David HalIa: I feel it wilI. It's alreadv spelled out
things that they uanted iL limited to.
.ln here certai n
way do you feel that it will ]imit the use of your
s stick to your land for purposes of your comments
knou: if it's going to harm you.
Emm i ngs: Ancl
lanC? Ag;-rin,
because I uJa rrt
w hatIet'
to
David HaIIa: okay. I used to run cattle out there. Now if I so and put
cattle back on that land again and I've got all the squeeze chutes and the
scales and the corrals and the Pins and aII of that are in there. If I go
and put cattle on that l.and again and they say that you can't run it
agricultural and it's rural residential. tlell rural residential won't
classify for running caltle.
Emmings: okay, ure covered this once.
Resident: You couldn't build the shed for the caltle though.
Emmings: That's true. You can't build
sometinreg you have associated with farm
it urculd limit your use.
accessory buildings thaL
That's true. That is a wav
the
use.
David Ha]la: Right. But Lhe main thing is that f know that going from A-2
to RR is going to increase the taxes and we've got enough damn taxes right
now. The only other thing that I'm objecting to is this classification of
PIanni ng Commission Meet i ng
August ?7, !991 - Pagc 7
Emmings; tJait a minute. Can you hang around because we're going
address that individually in just a few minules. That's the nextthe agenda so why don't you hang around and give us your comments
to
item on
on that.
Emmings: Is there anybody else that r.lants to be heard on this? Yes sir.
l,tark Danielson: Hy name's l,lar k Danielson. I have a lot over in Lake Riley
Meadows and my concern is too about the taxes. To me it doesn't make sense -that if you're going to go from agricultural zoned area to something that'scalled a residential that the taxes are going to stay the same. I thinkthat we as property owners need to have an assurance from somebody thattaxes may 90 up bur- r^re're not going to be in a classification that,s goingto junrp. us uF,. The other thing is at Lake Riley Meadows there's only acouple of lots left and I don't think that anybody's going to come in thereand put a cemetari- in it and l would assume that if it's zoned A-2 theycan't jusL go in and put a cemetary in. They've go! to come in and talk tothe c,omnissiorr ()r whoever before that can be done- Some of the thingsabout buildings or stabLes or that type of thing, I would think that thatwould have to gc, before a comnrission and I think it does say that there's
sonre variance for that and that's keeping with the large lot deveJ.opmenL,rf somebc,d>' wants Lo have horses, that's nice. rt would make sense to me, _at least from my perspective and where we have a Iot, that each one ofthese areaE h'e lcoked at to see where there's a potentia.L problem.obviouslv there must have been some reason that you decided that maybethese shor.rld be RR versus A-2. tlhether it was a specific problem that you
had r^rith fear thaL somebodv uras going to come in and want to do something,but some of these areas, especia]]y if there r.rould be a change in thetaxes, are basically deveroped. r don't know as weII the other Iarge Iotareas but f can speak for our area on that. Thanks.
Emmings: Thank you. Anybody else?
charlotte Morrison: My name's charloLLe l,torrison. r Iive in the pioneerHiIIs area and I just urant to LeII you that I'm happy t.hat you're changingthis and r thi.nk in the long run it wiII be beneficial to us and r knowthat things can be put on these lots r^rithout getting permission for it thatmight be detrimental to neighborhoods and r just wanted you to knou rmhappv .
B]air Bury: My name is Blair Bury. I have aconcern also is the possibLe tax increase. Iof taxes now and I really don't appreciate anthink the limitations are reasonable tha! arethat's everybocly's concern is going to be theThey're go!.ng to have to go up but I think thconstant if we can.
lot in Timberwood and my
have to agree hre have plentyy more if we don't need it. Ion there now and I Lhinktax change. I agree.e mi,I rate should stay
Sunil Chojar: Ny name is Sunil Chojar.Estates. It's only a lot at this stage.to impact the large size that is already
I have a Iot i.n Timberwood
Hy question is, how is it goingexisting here? Can they be
the bluff setback. Now I think that has to be addressed indivjdually.
David HaI)E: Alright, fine. Thanks.
PIanni n9 Commission Heet i n9
August 27, 199f - Page 8
further sut,diviclecl or what's going to be the effect of A-2 to RR with oursizes?
Aanenson: It's the same minimum lot size. Same setbacks, 2 l/2 acres.
The same setback requirements in both zones.
Emmi ngs: Okay.
betureen the A-2
So on items you're mentioning, there's no difference
and the RR?
SuniI Chojar: So the size to stay the same?
the same.Emminge: The size is 9oin9
9unj I Chojar : Thank you.
Don F:alIa: Gc'od evening ladies and gentlemen. I'm Don Halla. I'm
cort,:=rnr:.1 al'rout changes that would affect the nursery business - If you
read my' let-ter. you irrcorrectly read or stated r.lhat I said in the Ietter.
Our iniention uJas to stay in the nursery business in this area and nct tobe f c,rced Lo subdivide. But in fact I ulas forced to go inLo 2 !/2 acrelots becausc I haC just purchased the property from my brother. Takingintc, corrs.ide rat ion the cost and the value of the ]and b,ith lhe anticipationthat it r^rould lernain at 2 L/2 acye Lot sizes, Then it was determined that
it wae changed to 1 lot per 10 acres. fn order to preeerve the value c,f my
Ian;l .:ni rr. t lose 3/4 of it, I r..ra s f orced to come in with a subdivision for
2 7/? a.re?. It Has not something I h,anted to do. It was something that
was forceC upon me by economics by a purchase that had just been done and
then a charrge in zoning ordinances had put me in a box. l.,le have tried andI aekeJ permission !o drag my feet as much as possible, I Lhink you knowthat, s.o I cc,uld remain irr the nursery business. [.Je have me! a]l the rul.es
and regulaLions. tJe have given up properLy for road easements, etc.. t^le
have three ]ots that have been subdivided and when you talk about Green
Acres r.J -- wcrc back charged in Green Acres prior to the subdivision evengojng jn. trr'ior to the 2 !/2 acre lots happening and that uJas done because
it *:: de i:elrnined tha! we biere going to do it in the future so we would
lose our Green Acres advantage of those areas and we were charged at
regular Iot values. Supposedly January 1 when the subdivision takes place,
you're supposed to be appraised on January 1. l.le actually had it signed bythe city sometime I believe in February or Harch. It [asn't registereduntil that time. Our land values actually Nere looked at and the Greerr
Acres removed as of January 1 because they anticipated us doing it sometimethis year which is incorrect but it uas done and nobody's reversed it andwe're paying taxes on the higher rate. So how that preserves Green Acresfor other people and how it would be involving them, I don't know. It did
adversely affect me personally. As far as the intention of subdividing and
so forth and continuing with the project, I only want to do so as rapidly
as you folks force me to do so. It is my intention, as I have said rightalong, to sta)' in the nursery business. Maintain probably at least 10
acres or 1? acres for my nursery operation in the, center core of this. Any
changjng from A-2 Lo RR couLd adversely affect my ability to put upbuildings and so forth that are needed to operate in the agricultural
metlroC that we have been operating on. We still would continue to growplant material. tJe still have those plans on doing so, I am only Coinethe suk,Civision and I will only do the subdivision in order to preserve the
is goi n9
to stay
PIanr,i n3 Commission Meet i ng
August 27, 7997 - Page 9
value c,f m) property. BaseC upon putting myself in the box of having. paid
u,ay too much for the property if aII I'm able to get is l lot in 10. AndLhat's, I thjnk the .letler is self explanatory. Even now h,e have really
gror^ring on almosL 2 L/2 of the 3 acres area is still in agricultural. It'sstiII in treee, , shurbs and evergreens. tle stilI harvest it. t,le have Iostthe Green Acres on those tuo lots that are still being used foragricultural purposes, even though they are right attached to the rest ofthe nursery and are being used for agricultural purposes. I think RR
.changing would probably make this even h,orse. I don't know. I don't knowthe exact ranrifications of that but if it's already happened under A-2, Icertainly think it would get worse under RR. So I would prefer to keep itthe way it is and of course at this point there's nobody else living therethat it affects except orre person and that's Hark HaIIa. NeIl actuallytt{o. Dave HaIIa would also be in that area. Any questions?
Enrnri ngs r Are you going
later. Yes sir.to stay around? They ma), have questions for you
Hark l-:alla: My name is Mark HaIIa and I'm currently the only resident atGreat F'lains Golf Estates. I own the one lot that is sold and Don doeshavc a FC.jnt th;t it's currently, being used for mainly nurgery use- Theother thio l.te thar. have been subdivided are 1OOZ nursery use at this time. -Of courEe ae ev€.r),one else js concerned about taxes, I am as weII. There,sno need to g,rt them any higher than they have been and we're all hoping tokeep them as low as possible for as long as possible. r also have concerns -that I ursnt to stay in the nursery business as uell. It's been a familyoperat.ion for a long time. tJe've beerr here from the tirne the city started.Basic:llv a tounship to a citv. !.Je've helpcd employ quite a few citizens.
l^le t,asicall'/ are a sanctuary in ourselves. We've got the naturalbourrdariee. As has been poi.nted out, He grou the trees. Basically it
seerrrs to rr: e that w€'re an ideal thing f or a city to have . A wor kingnursery is open space that you didn't have to take from a developer. youdicirr't have to fisht for it. rt seems to me you'd want to preserve it asIong as possible. I don't personal).y believe that,s going to continue if
hre convert to RR- ue have enough problems as it is under A-2 and forced to-subclivide as Don has pointed out. some of the things don't seem right. rtseems ]ike we're grouing a method that in a sense doesn't make a lot ofsense. Growth i.s important but r think it needs to be a little bit betterplanned and organized and each individual area needs to be evaluated -separately as an individual area. We'd Iike to maintain our nurseryoperation. tje Lhink it's a plus foy the city of chanhassen but obviouslyue cah't do that if we're not allowed to put up a truck building if t^re need -to store our equipment and keep it maintain...increase rapidly because outin the ureaLher things age quicker. Certainly you understand that. you
wouldn't ujant to park your car outside in the winter if you didn't have to. _The same thing urith us. t^le need to have Lhe .ability to do that. t^te don'tneed to pay the extra taxes and I guess the change in time i.s a good oneand I'm aII for it but it needs to be done at the end of it aII. Onceever;-thj rrg :. cjevelotred. I. don't really lhink tlrat in this city I thinkthing: are watched carefully enough. There isn,t going to be a problemwith someone c(,ming in and doing something that you really didn,t u,ant tobe dona Lhat was that big a problem. Little things may come through. Imay put up a shed on my property that my neighbor doesn't like. It,s not amajor deal and in Lime that can be changed by the City ordinances but I
Planning Connmission Meet i ng
Augu3t ?1 , 1,997 - Page 10
don't t,eliave to change it ahead of time is the right move. I think once
Lhe areas are more developed that it might make more sense. Unless you're
going to Foint out separate places and areas and say okay, these are exempt
from these changes and that may be something you want to look into as
urell. That's where I stand.
Emmings: okay, thank you. I'd like to ask the staff if there's a reason
maybe to distinquish Great Plains GoIf Estates from the rest of them that
are listed here on the basis that we've got an oPeration going on that
properLy urhich is Lhe nursery oPeration going there whereas in the rest of
these we'\,e rrostly got a }ot of houses or just land sitting emPty waiting
for houses to come without agricultural use. I think Lhey might have a
point ab<,rt t,eing able to erect buildings for their oPeration. So is there
some kind of a basis here for distinquishing creat Plains Golf Estates from
lhe rest cf '.hes.e?
Kr auss :
for theplatted
Er hart:
Emmi ngs :
Erhart:
Krauss:
Erhart:
ti(IL Great Plains GoIf Estates
rncat pir-t it doesn't exist yet.is different from the rest in thatIt's only been prel iminary
Emmi irg':: Arrd jt's'irr active use which this change might affect -
Kraus.s: It could conceiveably. You know it uras our intent in Putting it
in with the res.- of the subdivisions wasn't any part of a grand consPiracy.
IL Nas thc foct that it was a rural subdivision much as the way the others
were. If there's some clesire to keep it out of that designation until
additional subdivision occurs or if it occurs in that time period as been
ohayecl b,). t l-re. Counci I , that 's f ine with us. [.le have no secret or otherwise
agends. t.!e did go to the point of contacting orlin and we've done in the
past, i think you're aware ure had him testify at the Comprehensive Plan on
somc related, sir,ilar types of issues. He confirmed for us that this in
and c,f i*.se If will not raise taxes, Of course Orlin would alurays then say
th. t.?)::: arc aL*ays going to go uP as ProPerty values - . . If it t'tould put
peopt€,'s. ri)1nc3 at ease, we could have him at your next meeting or the City
CounciL nrerling or get something from him in uriting.
Canlaskaquestion?
Yeah.
tlhe'n's a subdivision a subdivision?
tJeII, that's real difficult to sav on the HaIla's request.
I rnean at what point in the Process does it become a?
Krauss: tJell it's been final platted. tle accePted the final plat a
months ago urhich platted mos! of it into outlots and knocked off the
Iot-: a I orr.J the road inLo the golf course
Erhart: f'm referring to the either 20 or 30 lots-
olserr : They're an outloL. Thev've been pl'atted as an outlot.
few
three
Flanni n3 Commission Meet i ng
Auguc+. 21 , 19<'1 - Page 11
Don Halle; tJe onl)/ platted 3 out of 35.
Erhart: S,o reall:r HalIa Nursery really isn't a subdivision
Emmings: NelI there's been a plat thaL,s been approved anda subdivision plat so I think it is a subdivision. That'dyou knou:?
as yet?
filed and iL
be my guees.
SI
Dct
Emmings: That makes sense to me but it's still, it feels like it,sdifferent tc, nre and r just wonder if that, do you think that the factualdifference that we've been talkins about herl urould be a reasonable basisfor dlet irr-.lrrishirrg that one f rom the rest of these?
Ahren=: It is if it's a final p]at.
Krauss: I think so-
deveJ oped or becon:i ngrHaIle in it's currentfuII sul :lir,,isi c,rr.
I mean clearly all the othersso. And it r,rould be probably
state unti I or if the'z decide
are either
r easonable
to pr oceed
fully
to leave thewiih the
Emmi ngs: Okay . Is there anybodyhere. Is +-herc anybody else here
else? The public hearing's stiII openthat wants to speak on this?
tnErhart moved, Ahrens seconded to close the public hearing. Al.l votedfavor and the motion carried- The public hearing was cl6sed.
Erhart: r think this is a real good ordinance. r think from what Iunderatsn.i th,: pu)"pos.-, r^ras to protect those people who are in ruralsubcivis.ions. S,o r also think it doesn't make really .ny =.n=" to throurHalla''i inLo t: hi:. rt doesn't serve the purpose we're setting out to doso- Thr: onl:" thing r had is r think we missecr a coupre. Uhat is t^rest 96thStr eet ?
Kraus3: To
anything.
the best of my knor^rledge that,s a condition that pre-dated
Erhart: It 's
subdivision.
weIl.
a bunch of 1
tJ hy wouldn't
and2and5acre
ure throw that in Iots all essentiallyhere? Protect those
ln alots as
Krauss: cc,nceiveabl.v you could although if the HaIla,s character argumenthas some validitv. tlest 96th street area is a little bit different ihanmost of the rural subdivision that we have. They're J.arger lots to thebest of mv knowledge. r knour there's a number oi people-ihat keep a lot. ofhorses out there . !.,te can i nclude it .
Erhart r Sorr)e are 1 acre. One side of Lheand the other sicie they're.road they're almost all 1 acre
Kraug.-r: Tirey 're pioneers.
Erhart; r just assumed that we would include that since it's basically the -same ave't-sge density as all the rest of them. I suppose ure haven'tnotified thenr. J guess nrv point woul.d be, r guess r assumed that they
would b€ in<.lujed. I would suggest that we table it until we notifv them.
Unless we can find if they have some objection because I think it's the
s3me chara.t.r. rr' fact along the street it's actually much higher
density. The lot widLh is only 15o feet Lhere. For all Lhe other ones
it's at least 180 or 2oo so in a sense it's actually more dense. Those are
my comments,
conrad: I IiLe- the ordinance. It makes sense. It Protects PeoPle who are
moving into large lots. I agree with leaving the GreaL Plains Golf Estates
out of this. It's a different animal altogether at this point in time. I
don't know what triggers bringing it under. Back into this ordinance -
Somebocly has !o tell nre when that'occurs and I guess I'm still interested
in the tax. Don said he's seen the tax. The implications of this and bv
no means was this intended to change tax rates. It's intended to Protect
people. people that are movlng in and the people that trant to experience
the ru:-al area anJ that's why we're doing this. f'm sure there are better
r.rs)-s to ma h: rnon.:y . So I guess I 'd Ii ke to see the Assessor at the City
counc!) rreetins and talk to the city council about the implications of this
when this comes to their table. That's all.
Emmirrgs: orr L aclc] 's question when this question might arise. Assunring
Greet f lairrs Golf Estates uere left out - The question is then when r^rill r.re
reco;r':.idr'; rezoni rrg it RR? And now whenever they want to develoP
something, they,re going to be bringing in an outlot with a plat right to
subCivid€ jr- into lots and u:e'd have an oPPortunity to consider the
question arl that point. t^lould tha! be right? Okay - Annette?
Ells:,r,: I thin[: it rnakes sense ' I don't knor'r that we communicate enough
to t.h. people r.rhat we,re motivated behind here. I know thaL I remenrber
tl,ini::r.g. ir I liv;,cj irr Ti.mbcrwood I r"rouldn't b,ant a mobile home moving in
r igl.','- ner:t Lo me and r ight now it could and I couldn't do anything about
it. ancj I nright have a e 25o,ooo.oo house and there's a nice mobil6 home
sittin: there, And ue were looking at it from the standPoint thaL a Iot of
pc-,c,g,i r ar€ c,uL there trying to be sPread out and trying to have homes and
i+-'s nc! set up to protect homeouners. That's trhy I appreciated Charlotte
rnent j<in: rrg tl-,at. tle did a bad iob of communicating our intentions I think
ma.zb= in ih.t lett.r so. As far as the qualification for Green Acres and
thinge I i he that, I agree r.,,ith Ladd and Tim and everybody that what u:e need
to do is bring in the county since we're getting two different People's
reForts and I'm no! doubting every person believes what they heard was
right- You knou, David heard from one Person and we heard from another as
fai as the City so let's get him in here and find out. Like Mark *,as
talking about maybe it,s not, it's based on the same, t^rhat they're basing
the tai on is the same . [^1e won't be ab]e to Promise that rural resident jal
versus A-2 Hill never rise next year but they should alu,ays be based on the
same thi ng. so if one rose so would the other an),r.,ay but . t^lhen we did
this ure though! boy, there's a Iot of PeoPIe out there that could have some
nasty things comirrg risht behind their backyard and they wouldn't have
anytiri rig to say abor,rt it and ue couldn't stop it .,, f t doesn't matter that
it'cc,mei forr.;ard and we don't like it. The law would allow those peoPle to
have thet and r,re cculdn't do anything about it so tre had good intentions '
And r agrt-e with the nursery but I also think that somehow i! has tc
triggr,r going back into it if it's no longer used for that PurPose'
l'.iot h i rr9 rr.w I gues9.
PIanninJ Coirrmission Heet i ng
Augus'. 21 . 7997 - Page 12
Planhi ng Commission Meet i n9
August ?7, 7997 - Page 13
Emming3: Oka/. Brian?
Batzli: f agree entirel>' with Ladd's comments and I also agree with Timthat if there are additional areas in the city that fit into this kind of amold, that we should take a ]ook at them and I would love to be at theCouncil meeting to hear the Assessor tell the HaIIa,s why they wereapparently treated somewhat differentl y
Ahr ens r
that?
Ahrens: He calls ir- his intensive agricultural businessvarieties of vegetables and fruit trees.of br eedi n9 new
Farmakes: I think it's a good piece of city ordinance. people deserveprotection urhen they nrove into that type of situation. I thi.nk oneperson's dream may be another person,s nightmare. t^lhen you exercise orcorre and say that, we've seen this before that if you buy a piece ofproperty or if you've been here for many years, you should have a specialright to uLilize that property. That goes to a certain point. That's whythey h:ve grandfathered. But it also stops at a certain point. IfsoneL,c,d) purchases this property, I think they have the right to someprotection under zoning. And the issue of the taxes, r'd agree, r myselfhave r,roblen= at the countv level getting a straight story sometimes andthat "rould b. gleat if thev came to the city council meeting and respond to -that jss.r.re. I don't have any further comments.
tJha'. about this letter from l.,larlin Edwards? Did you get a copy of -
Aanenson: Yee, He sent it to me.
Ahren=: Is this , r,rhere is this?
Aanensorr: The subdivisi.on?
Ahrens: l.l(-\, f mean.
Aanenson: f t's Surrridge Addition
Ahreng: C}.,, thai's in Sunridge?
Aanenson: Yes. He has a 10 acrb ]ot.
Ahrens: It says he has an agriculLural business?
Aanenson: He's using it as agricultural . He doesn't have a home oranything. It's a 10 acre lot. He has 10 acres that he,s usingagriculturallx.
Ahrens: So he has a wholesale nursery going on there?
Aanenson: I don't think so. I.think he's just grouring crops on it.
olseri: r clt,n'L think it exist.s. r think he's saying that he would want to -do that.
PIanni ng Commisoion Heet i ng
August 2\, !997 - Page 14
Aanensoi: H3's an anomaly. He uJas concerned that he would be able Lo
continue r,rhat he's doing to the ProPerty because he's different than
everybcdy el.se in the subdivision and he uas saying ' you knou if this gets,
can I corrtinue to use Lhis? Are my neighbors going to be concerned?
Emmifi;.: AnC the ansuter is yes he can. Correct?
Aaneng:,n: Ri ght .
Ahrerie : So his concerns are unfounded?
Eminings: tle l] his concerns aren't unfounded but this isn't going to hurt
it- il',i= i=n'i going Lo affect him in anv negatlve wav- I don'L think-
Ahrenl: tJel], I'rn going to recommend aPProval of this zoning change too
because I think it's a good idea t,ith the exception of, trith excePting out
Great Plains. Golf Estates for the reasons everybody else has said. I think
thcre's; lot of misinformation about the taxes and I think it would be
good for ever)'Llocly to shou up if Orlin Schafer does show uP at the city
Counci I me€ti ng. . .some ansr^,ers out of him.
Emmings: Okay. And I don't have anything new. I
to do. I think the tax question has Lo be ansulered
done at the City CounciI. The onlv question that's
ought to table it to be sure we've included all the
to t,e included or should we send it along and amend
don't know .
Conr 6i ci :
vote on
the legislative
subdivision .
think it's a good thing
and I think that can be
come up is whether we
subdivisions that ought
it later. f guess I
Conrad: City Council can oPen it up for public hearing ean't thev?
Krauss: They generally do.
Yeah. So we could tabte it here.and bring it back or we could
it and send it along Lo the citv Council 'with the fact that.
KrauE:s:is held
I should add though the official,
by you so we could not add another
Conr 6 cl : Couldn't?
publ ic hear i ng
Aanenson: He works at Green Giant, yes.
Ahrens: Dici you read this?
Batz I i : Yeah.
Ahrens: f guess if we're going to consider sPecial uses for a sPecial
category for Great Plains Golf Estates, if other subdivisions have active
commercial nurseries on their ProPerty, maybe h,e should exemPt them too.
Emmings: I think the difference here is, I'm not sure but I think the
diffeience is, Halla's have basicallv their entire ProPerty in a large
operation. This guy,s got one !.ot in one subdivision that he says he's goL
an intensjve agricultural business. I don't think that. - '
Planni n3 Ccmmission Meet i ng
August ?7, 799! - Page 15
Krauss: t^le couLd rrot. That would have to come back through you,
Emnings: I Eonde]' if, do we think it,s just one?
Olsen: Yeah. I don't think you really have much el.se down there. It'sjusL in the A-2 district and I don't know of any other ones like Tim,s.
Emniing3: My only thought would be that if we move it along having a pubJic -hearing for one we're adding is not going to take that long and we won'thave to renc,t jfy everybody that's here. That's my only thought Tim.
Erhart: S,c your recommendation would be what?
Emrnings: You can do what you wan!
Erhart: I ,ii:n'i follcu you.
Enrrnings: Ujll .it L,e quicker for us or wiII it take Iess time for us tomove it alcng ncl,: anJ just have a public hearing later on Lhe individualone r^re're considering adding? otherr^rise we're gc,ing to have to renotify
eve r ):L :, -iy .
ErhaIt: l^l r- cc,uLci dc that?
Aane ni,:,:-.: 9ur-e. ycu could always rezone property at any time .
Erhart: S,. what clc, ,".^u want the rnotion Lo be then?
ConI''g J: 'l'lt;: ': ;,.:r-r t- choi cc
Erhi.r't : c)l,. s.1 yc,Lr're saying uJe move to approve it and then that comesbac k?
Emmi ng: :
alon2 end
ConraC:that are
I thinl. thosethen later on
are our choi.ces.
i f we ura nt to add
Either we table it or we rnor,re itsomething, we can aluays.
Erhart: How long is it soing to take to discuss this the next time around?rf r move that we leave the Great plains Golf Estates ouL, is it going totake that much time on another Planning Commission meeting?
Conrad: ShouLdn't.
Emmings: Don't know.
Erh6rt:time we
Est a t e:,
BatzIi: gecond.
Emmingr: AIright, is there any discussion?
Let rne try that one. I'lI move Lo table the ordinance at u,hichcan revieu additional subdivisions and ask that creat plains GolfL,e removed frorn the proposed ordinance at that time.
Yeah. I just would wanttracking Lhe itenr, and f to make sure that those
m sure the Halla's wil]that are herefollow it but
Planrring Ccmmission Meeting
Augu.,t ?!, 7991 - Page 15
w h'-- n
whe r e
there
other
1".,4 tab,le it and bring it back, it's a way that people loseis in Lhe process of moving it up Lo the city Council.
c.ff jcia] mechanism of making sure that these folks are
an the city paper, when it goes to the City Council?
sight of
So is
awar e ,
ir
afl
rh
Aanenson; If you want us
couple hundred peopIe,
to renotify everybody, ..Je can do that? There's a
Erhart: Okay, so if we table it tonight Ne have to notify everybody that
we noLified aga i n?
Ahr ens :have to renotify?Do we
He 'sAanenson:asking us to track it that way.
Ahrena: t.ll-r>, i:n't puL,l ica!ion suf f icient?
Coxra,:: Yeal-, , it !sout c,f touch. You'v
Erl^:.rIt: If you have
we've clo nc .
Emminge: Yesh.
Er hart, t Oi.t,i', does
but again it's one of Lhose things that keeps people
e got to be kind of diLigent.
a continuation of a public hearing, that's someLhing
everyone have to be notified then?
Kreu=3 Ar.?YcU firov I ng on?
saying if we table it and just contlnue
time it comes up on our agenda, do you
rroLifiecj for this meeting?
Emn i ng:: No,
hear in3 to th:
svs;yb,6!y t hat
he 's
next
UJA S
the publ ic
have to renot ify
Emminge: No, b,e're just asking what happens.
Conrad: So when we reopen the public hearing, we have to recommunicaLe toeverybody. Big deal . And then when it goes to the City Council, people
would be auare of it only through our official paper. I guess they'remotivated enough to track it that r.:ay. That always bothers me. l^lhen we
send along here to City Council, they know what day it's going but that's
maybe a rn i nor issue.
Erhart: This here doesn't bother me about it too much because a lot of
times we'lI talk about zoning changes, we generall)z have too public
heari r,gs anyway I believe. [.,e common]y have had ,two public hearings. Got
a motic-,n.
Emm i ngs :
El Ison: I
AIright, any
forgoi what
other discussion on the motion?
it is,
Krauss: t!e-I I we probably t^rould be because the notice that tde sent them
told thenr that it would be at the Council on an appropriate date. That's
noL the uor-g! thing. tJe don't object to doing it.
Planning Commission Meet i ng
August 2f, 7991 - Pase 77
Emmi ngs: To tab 1e .
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to table the Rezoning S91-9 for property
zoned A-2 to RR for staff to review any additional subdivisions and toremove Great Plains GoIf Estates. All voted in favor except Enmings nhoopposed and the motion carried 6 to 1.
Conrad: So it's going to be tabled everybody that's here.for one other subdivision and I guess the message is, you'II
about it but to track, to watch for it in the City paper soit goes to the City Council.
Be brought bac kget a messageyou know when
Public Present:
Name Addr ess
Nancy Lee./Pat B I oocj
Jim SulerudAri Fuad
Verne Sever so n
Jane A. Pou]os
David M. Halla
Bjorg & Jerry Hendr ic kson
Don E. Halla
Mar k HaIla
Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report on this item. Chairman EmmingscalIed the public hearing to order.
Ari Fuad: My name is Ari Fuad. I ot.rn a lot in Hesse Farm Addition. Thewest side. I think it's the last lot on the bluff in that subdivision. Al.Ithe rest have houses on them already so I'm the only one who's reallyaffected by thj.s. I think one reason, I bought the Iot a year ago and onereason it hasn't been developed yet. is because the obvious site by the roadis, though it's on the bluff it doesn't have any vieu, of the valley because -of trees immediatelv bet(een that site and the bluff and r don't knour r.rhatIimited clearing means but there's some substantial trees there. Unlessyou can cut down a Lot of big oak trees which I urouldn't want to do anyway, _you couldn't appreciate or you don't get any benefit from that site. Thisproperty is 11 acres and it runs dor.,n the uhole Iength of the bLuff. AIIthe uray down to a railroad bed which has just been taken out andperpendicular or running the ]ength of the lot is a ridge. l.rhen I bought -the property a yea( ago I uralked down there. This is actually an existinsroad that maybe Hesse may have put in sometime or somebody put in manyyears ago Lhat runs down this ridge. The attract,i.on of the loL to me Hasanother potenLial site and Jo Ann went and Iooked at it and said what thisordinance is trying to do was prevent developmenL of such sites within thebluff. The site may not actually be buildable if it's indeed a sandy soilthere though I believe, from the evidence, walking dot"rn this roadbed where
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE A}TEND},IENT TO CREATE A BLUFF LINE PRESERVATION SECTION TO
THE CITY CODE=
1O5OO Great Plains Blvd.
73O Voselsberg Trail
6645 Cherokee TraiI, Eden Prairie
675 Lakota LaneLot S12, Deerbrook
1OO95 Great Plains BIvd.
9OO Homestead Lane
10,OOO Great Plains Blvd.
77O Cree kr^rood
CITY OF
EH[NH[ESEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
UEMORANDt,}I
To: Planning Commission
EROM: Jo Ann olsen, Senior Planner
DATE: August 2a, L99L
suBr: Bluff ordinance
The Planning Conmission reviewed the Bluff Protection ordinance on
August 2l , 1991 (Attachnent *2). The Planning Conrnission
reconrmended tabling action on the ordinance until additionalcorrections could be made. The additions to the ordi.nance include
comments from the soil and water conservation District and theRiley Purgatory Bluff creek watershed District. The conments
focused on protection of vegetative cover and naintaining soilstabil ity . lilore gnridance rrras given to renoval of vegetation f orvisibility. Specific regrulations on the amount or area of
vegetative removal were not provided since it wiLl aLnost have tobe enforced on a case by case basis. The City Attorney addedSection 2O-L4O7 on reconstruction of Iar.rfuI nonconforningstructures. The Planning Comnission also wanted to visit one sitethat was discussed during the neeting where the Bluff Protection
Ordinance vould limit rrhere the property owner could locate a hone.
On August 27, 199L, the Planning Comnission, staff and the property
owner met at a site located in the Hesse Farrn subdivision to see
how the Bluff Protection Ordinance would affect the lot. It
appears that the requirenents of the ordinance would result in theproperty owner having to receive a variance to the regulations tolocate the hone where he wishes.
RECOMMENDATI ON
Staff recornrnends the Planning Conmission adopt the attached BluffProtection Ordinance.
ATTACH},IENTS
Bluff Protection Ordinance.Planninq Commission minutes dated August 21, 1991.
1
2
ODDa!'
+a
PRINTED ON RECYCLED PAPEB
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COTINTIES,I,TINNESOTA
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE AI,{ENDTNG CHAEITER 2 O OF THE
CIIANHASSEN CITY CODE, THE ZONING ORDINANCE
The City Council of the City of Chanhassen ordains:
SectLon 1. section 2O-1, Definitions is hereby amended byadding the following:
Bluff. Bluff neans a latural topographic feature such as ahiII, cliff, or enbanloent having tfre tolfowing characterisiics:
(1) The slope risesbIuff, and
at least 25 feet above the toe of the
(2) The grade of the slope frompoint 25 feet or more aboveaverages 308 or greater.
the toe of the bluff to athe toe of the bluff s+epe
(3) An area with an average slope of less than 1Bg over adistance for 50 feet or nore shaII not be considered partof the bluff.
Eluff Inpact zoDe. Bluff inpact zone neans a bluff and landlocated within 20 feet froro the top of a bluff.
Ia+elt9 te vegeta-tior eleariDg. :titsr+i:ve Vegetation clearingneans !h. complete renovaL of trees----€ai___shfirbs eristinivegetative cover in such a naDD€r as to 6xpos6 the soil to airaDd rater erosion @, rey or bleek.
Toe of tbe bIuff. ?oe of the bluff neans the point on a bluffwhere there isr-as visually observed, a cleaily identifiablebreak in the sloper. fron g€nt+er fiatter to steeper slopeabove. If no break in the slope is apparent, the tloe of thebluff shall be deternined to Ee the lbwer end of a SO footsegment, measured on the ground, with an average slopeexceeding 18*.
Top of tba bluff. Top of the bluff means the point on a bluffwhere there is, as visuarly observed, a cleaily iaentitiabtebreak in the slop_e, froro sleeper to gentler s13pe aUove. Ifno break in the slope is apparLnt, the top of thL fiuff-snaffbe deterrnined to be -the _ gpper end of .a SO foot iegrent,neasured on the ground, with an average slope exceeaini fS*.
. -qection ?. Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code is anendedby adding Article XxvIfI to read as follows:
ARTICLE XXVIII.
BLUFF PROTECTION
Sectior 20-1100. Stat€lraDt of lDtent.
Developnent, excavation, clearcutting and other activitieswithin the bluff inpact zone may result in increased dangers of
erosion, increased visibility to surrounding properties and thereby
endanger the natural character of the land and jeopardize thehealth, safety, and welfare of the citizens of the city. To
preserve the character of the bluff inpact zone within the city,
alteration to @ lald or vegetation YithiB will
not be penoitted except as regulated by this Article and by the
regulations of the underlying zoning district where the property is
Located.
Section 20-1101. Structure Setbacks.
(1) structures, including but not Linited to decks and
accessory buildings, except stainrays and landings, are
prohibited on the bluff and must be set back fron the topof the bluff and toe of the bluff at least thirty (30)
feet.
(2) on parcels of land on which a building has already been
constructed on June 1, 1991, the setback from the top of
the bluff is five (5) feet or eslstiDg s6tback, vhichevaria nore, for additiotta to aD eristiag building. lDy Der
buildings vill hav6 to n6et th€ 30 foot sstback.
SectioD 2o-1ro2. Stal.nays, Ll.fts aDA lraDdilgs.
Stairways and lifts
blr*f€s nay be perDittad ln suitable sites uhere constructl.oD rillnot redirect vater flov directloa aDd/o! increase draiDagevelocity. Major topographic alterations are prohibited. stairrrays
and lifts rnust recel.ve aD earth sork pemit aDd nust neet the
fo1lo&ing design requirernents:
(1) stain ays and Iifts may not exceed four (4)
on residential 1ots. Wider stairways may
conmercial properties, public open spaceproperties, and planned unit developnents.
feet in vidth
be used for
recreational
(2) Landings for stairways and lifts on residential lots may
not exceed thirty-two (32) square feet in area. Landingslarger than thirty-two (32) square feet nay be used for
cornnercial properties, public open space recreationalproperties, and planned unit developments.
2
(3) Canopies or roofs are not allowed on stairways, Iifts, orlandings .
(4) Stairways, Lifts and landings roay be either constructedabove the ground on posts or placed into the ground,provided they are designed and buitt in a nannCr thatensures control of soiL erosion.
(5) Stairways, lifts and landings nust be located in the mostvisually inconspicuous porfions of 1ots.
(6) Facilities such. as ranps, lifts, or uobility paths forphysically handicapped persons are also allowdai providedthat the dimensional and perfornance standards -of sub_itens (1) to (5) are conplied with.
Sectiotr 2o-1103. Renoval or AlteratloD of VegatatioD.
Removal or alteration of vegetation within a bluff inpact zoneis prohib-ited except- for. the-+o]*o*irryn f+| linited ciJarlng ottrees and shrubs and cutting, pruning and trinning of trees .*sa}}ered -to provide a view fron the principar dweuiig sitJ and toaccommodate the placenent of stairways and landingi and accesspaths.
ReEoval or elt€ratloD of vogetation Dust receive priorapprovar of the plaDniDg Dir€ctor oi designee. lD oE sLte rlviesriII be Eade to deter"uiae tf th8 reDoval or altoratioD ofvegetation uill._ require neU ground cover. r! tro case tharr clearcuttiDg be perultted. city a-aff virr rorf, uith tbe p.op"iii ora.tto develop r neaD of cr.atiDg a vtev rhire DiDi'rriig 6r-t,irbaDceto the bluff inpact rotre.
s€ctior 2o-1aor. Topogr.phic rlteratioDa/GradiDg aad Firliag.
. - An earth work perrnit wilr be required for the roovernent of norethan ten.(101 cltic yards of naterial within bluff irnpici ,"r,"=.The pernit shal1 be granted if the proposed alterat-ion does notadversely affect the btuff inpact zone or other property.Topographic alterations/grading- and filling withii ttie ur'urt inpactzone sharl not be pernitted to increase thl rate ot arainiqe. tn.
!1-ainaSg -fron..property within the bluff impact ,o".-riY' "ot U.redrrected lrithout a pemit f ron the city. Fill or e-xcavatednaterial shall not be placed in bluff irnpict zones.
SectioD 2O-1t05. Roads, Driveways and parkiDg lr€as.
.. Roads, - drJ.veways, and parking areas nust meet structuresetbacks and must not be. placed wiltrin bluff iurpaci zon-es wnenother reasonable and feasible pracenent arternativ-es exiit. rf noarternatives exist, ttrey nay be praced within these areas, -ana nustbe designed to ritri*.i-ee no€ cauie adverse inpacts.
3
Section 20-1a06. official uap.
This Article shalI apply onl,y to the bluff inpact zoneslocated on the official bluff inpact zone map dated June 1,, 1.991,as anerdeal fron tine to tine, which is incorporated herein by
reference and which is on file with the city C1erk. The official
map nay be administratively changed by the Planning Director based
upon the subrnittal of topographic survey data prepared by a
registered engineer or surveyor.
Sectiotr2o-1lo7. RecoDstructloD
Structures.
of Larful Noacoaforuing
Lat ful nonconforniDg atructureE that bava beeD alaDagetl or
dlestroyedl may be recoBstructed providedt tbat it is recoDstructedrithin one y6ar folloring its damage or destruction aad provided
the DoncoDfornity is Dot naterlally increased.
Section 3. This ordinance shall be effective irunediatel y uponits passage and publication.
PlssED AND ADoPTED by the Chanhassen city council this
-
day of , 1991.
ATTEST:
Don Ashrrorth, clerk/llanager Donald J. chmiel , llayor
(Published in the chanhassen villager on
-,
1991. )
4
Planning C c,mnri s= ior, Meeting
August 27, 1997 - Page 77
Emn,ings: To Labl e
Erhart moved, BatzIi seconded to table the Rezoning *91-9 for property
zoned A-2 Lo RR for staff to review any additional subdivisions and to
remove Great Plains GoIf Estates. AII voted in favor except Emmings uho
opposed and the motion carried 6 to 1.
Conrad: So it's going to be tabled everybody that's here. Be brought back
for one oLher subdivision and I guess the message is, you'IL get a message
about it but to Lrack, to watch for it in the City PaPer so you knour when
it goes to the city council.
Publ ic Pr esent:
Na me Addr ess
l'la nc y r-ec./Pe'- SIocc
J IrTr 5U.i er uC
Ar i Fuad
Ver rr. c,eve T go rr
Jarre l. Poulo:
David 1.1 . He, Ila
B jor-g E Jerry Hendrickson
Don E. l-ial la
Mar k He]la
Jo Arrn
called
1o5oo Great PIains BIvd .
73o Voselsberg Trail
5545 Cherokee TraiI, Eden Prairie
675 Lakota Lane
Lot S12, Deer br oo k
10095 Great Plains Blvd.
9oo Homestead Lane
10,OOO Great Plains Blvd.
770 Cr ee kwood
olserr prese-nted the staff rePort on this item. Chairman Emmings
Lhe public hearing to order
Ari Fuad: M)- name is Ari Fuad. I ou,n a Io! in Hesse Farm Addition. The
uest side. I think it's the Iast lot on the bluff in that subdivision. AIl
the rest have houses on them already so f'm the only one who's really
affected Lry this. I think one reason, I bought the lot a YeaY ago and one
reason it hasn'! been developed yet is because the obvious site by the road
is, though it's on the bluff it doesn't have anv view of the vallev because
of trees immediately between that site and the bluff and I don't know what
Iimited clearing means but Lhere's some substantial trees Lhere. Unless
you can c.ut down a ]ot of big oak trees which I wouldn't want to do anvwav,
you couldn't appreciate or you don't get anv benefit from that site. This
property is 11 acres and it runs down the ulhole length of Lhe bluff. AIl
the way douin Lo a railroad bed which has just been taken out and
perpendicular or running the ]ength of the lot is a ridge. t,hen I bought
the property a yeay ago I walked dor.rn there. This is actually an existing
road that maybe Hesse may have Put in sometime or somebody Put in many
years ago Lhat runs dowrr this ridge. The attraction of the Iot to me was
anolher potential site and Jo Ann went arrd looked at it and said what t.his
ordinance is trying to do was prevent develoPment of such sites uithin the
bluff. The s.ite may not actually be buildable if it's indeed a sandv soil
there thquglr i believe, from the evidence, walking down this roadbed where
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDHENT TO CREATE A BLUFF LINE PRESERVATION SECTION TO
THE CITY_ CODE:
Planning Comrni:;iorr Mee+.ing
August 2l , 7991 - Flage 18
Ari Fuad: rn mv particular circumstance, r uent out there !.Jith a tapemeasurer anc because of this road going down one side of the bluff, r meanthis existins road is in the bruff itself and it is cut into part of thisridge. so do r measure from the edge of the road or do r go down to theother side of the road uhich is some maybe 15 feet below "ith", place. Butr u,ent out and measured the uridth that rd have to build on and r didn'thave a gurvevor go out and say this is your ]ot line on this side but myestimat-e is r might have 1oo feet t^rith a loose restriction of theordinance. r,Jith a really tight restriction I might onLy have 70 feeL ofrelativelv flat area on top of the ridge- Now r should mention that oneside of the ridge sLopes off much more gently and that's the side which myproper-t7 linc runs down. So f don't knoh what the setback, is it 10 feetor 15 feet fronr the propert), line in Chanhassen?
Emmings: If iL's a side lot, it's 10.
there's ver>, IiLtle erosiorr on either side, that I think this site isbuild-able. I haverr 't done any soil testing yeL, I didn,t buy the Iot so Icould t,uiId right betuJeen two neighbors. aybe 50 from each side of thehousc. r wante,i to build on this other site down the bluff. r feel thatthis ordinance is discriminatory to me uniquely, There may be others in mycircumstance just because there aren't any other Lots in this subdivision. -Maybe in some of Lhe other subdivisions that haven't a.Lready beendeveloped - r pav a lot of monev for this lot. probabrv more Lhan r shouldhave but I really love the bluff. The basic intent of this ordinance I,min agreemenL. r wouLdn't want Lo see damage done to the bluff. At thesame time' this.is an 11 acre site and r feel that within limits r have tobe able to put a house on a buildable site on this rot and a house doesn'ttake up that much space. It takes up maybe a quarter acre or half an acre. -That's the area tha+-'s impacted. The rest would be IefL natural . Now rthink as an aLternative, and I,II keep this same, I like the lot size. Tobe 10 acres or greater but I think this is cenalizing Lhose people whohaven't rushecj c,ut there or haven't built in a hurry and I think the intentcou).d possiblv be achieved for such sites through more normal permittingprc)cees. r'nr not fanriliar with how permits are achieved or gotten inChanh-assen but I krrour if you ask for a required comprehensive soil testnear- the bluff. I think you could probably find some sites where you couldput a house c.Loser than 30 feet. For example your house, he said his housexas withi.n 5, feet arrcl he has no problem. r thi.nk also with regards toerosion you could also have sL)-ict requirements to put in erosion controldevices and stuff that r,Jould limit the damage to the surrounding bluff. rhave l-,uiIt a house before and I know how much ri.pping and roaringcorrstruct ion activitv does to a rot. But if there is a site that,sbuildable, r'd rather see the restrictions be placed just because, notbecause of adjacerrc)' to a bluff or because of a certain soil conditionsthatr^rouldmakeitIikeIythatahousetherewouIdfalIoffthebIufffor
exarnF,le. I gues,s, thaL's a]l I have to say, I'd like you to take myopinion: inlo consideration urhen you consider this ordinance. Than'k xou.
-Conrac.j: Just a qui<.k question while you're up there. fn your mind why isthat 30 feet sr.Lback so detrimental? ThaL's the size of tiris space righther e . l^itret dc,r:s t haL <lo?
PIa nni n,; Con,n,ission Heeting
August ?7, 79.,:7 - Page 19
Ari Fua:i : 10 fe€t sc, if I have 70 feet, if I have to be 10 feet from
there, then Lhat- leaves me 6O feet r^rhich then gives me, if I go 3O back
feet,I or:ly have 30 feet in which to Put a house which is Prettv narrow.
That's usirrg the narrovr intel'pretation. If I consider the whoIe, go down
to the ed,;e of the road bed maybe 1OO feet, then I'm dealing urilh 5O feet
which is possibly workable- But when I bought the lot I actually walked it
nith arr engineer and we talked about how we could excavate this area down
to this roadbed. Have it more flatted the top and I could see where you
uou.Idn't hant me to just dump all the dirt off the edge of the bluff and I
uould cerLainlv think it reasonable to haul a lot of that fiII axav ' Then
you'd harre a building site that could be approaching 1oo feet in width.
Then you take 30 feet off and you've stil] got 50 feet, 60-70 feet uhich is
plenty of room to Put a house on. But if I have to take-
Emmings: Le'r- me interruPt because I know it's clear in your mind
clis+-anr::. arrc! ever)'thing but at Ieast for me f'm rea] lost for th
i1' hie Ic,t , ier:'s s3) his loL, the ordinance was in Place and r^re
there anci et,erybc,dy determines Lhat there's no place on this lot
can build a house.
t he s.e
ese. But
r^re nt- outthat he
makes it a very
Ari Fr-rz,cl : There is
Emr, i ,r9: :
El. ls<'rr : Tl-,ei-e's a
a place t hough .
yor say tlrere is a Place -
place that would meet it but it's not.
the place I want it. It's a Place that
Ol -:i
Ari Fuaa: lt':l nat
ordjr'ali lr,L.
Enrnr i r,9:. :
val i a rrcc
Br-ri jf the,re were no PIace to builcj , then he could aptr.l'v for a
c,--r i,l hc rrct ?
Ar i Fuad: 5ut !here is
Emming--: Bui there ls a
Olsen: Fisht.
a place.
pIace, it's iust not desireable.
the lot is greally
what I paid for it
Emmi ngs: I urrdersLand.
Ari Fuad: And I think the value of
I would argue that it misht be half
house c,n that one site.
diminished. In fact
if you had to Put a
conrad: Does everybody understand uhat the situation is?
Emmings: In general terms. tJhen he starts talking about 60 or
don'! havc: any idea what he's talking about. But I think ulhat
is Lhcrr's a place he can pul, the important part is there's a
puL hir' hous:. IL isn't the best Place on the lot or where he
hi= hor.. arrd Lhis ordinance wjIl prevent him from putting his
he r,ra nt:
75 feet , I
he 's say i ng
pl ace he can
wanLs to Put
house wher e
PIanni ng Commiesion Meet i ng
AuEust 21 , 79'::7 - Page 20
Ari Fuari: And it might
any othcl pu l c has:.r whothat'g rrot a sm.l. I lot.
reduce the vaLue of the
would be const ra i ned toIt 's 11 acres.
property tofollow this
both myself and
ordi nance and
Farmak:,s: Can f ask a question?
Ar i Fuad; Sur e .
Farmakes: Youpart of the lol
Da v icl H.-l L.::
decr eas i rrg hi
him the mostpeople have tinstead of ta
apPl j es f c,r e
agai n, I hadHhy? Because
even push tha
edge becauseproblem withthe grass covjust covered
you 're taI ki nt^ielI, I'vc' sodispersed eveIittle cornrron
Lre're ac c:ept idoesn't. Now
you didn't do
bu i Idab I e?
said any soil testing. Are you sure that that-
El I sc,n: f.lc, ,wi.th it. 'y'ou're ta.l king at the right time. The right time to come forthl
Ari Fuad: Ar'd also, r like the intent of the ordinance. r like the bluffbut as on'' of tlre last Iots in this particular subdivision, and r can,tspeak t(' anv of the otlrer ones that's on Lhe bluff, r'm really the only onebeinE imp:,:Led. f cjor,.t thinh there's anyone else from Hesse Farm therebecau:'e the' re:t of the lots lhat haven't developed there aren't on thebluf f - Tltc;,.'r-e up on the f lat area and you can put a house anyurhere onthose -lots.
Emnri r,g:Ola;'. Thank you. Anybody else?
I3gree with the gentleman talking about the impact ins vaLue on not allowing him to put his home where it affordsview of the bluff. That,s what he bought it for. I think youo look at some of these things in a Little broader perspective _king the narrow view and categorically saying this rulesverybody. NoN when f built my house, going back to thata D5 Cat in there and it took them 3 days to dig the basement.Lhat wae virgin ground. Never been touched. ie couldn'tt- dirt. It just kind of rolled up in front of the cuttingit was that hard. tJe knew that r.re u,eren't going to have ierosion but to prevent that ure seeded croun vetch on top ofer that Has on the bank and that has literally taken over andthat whole bank. There's no way that can erode. Even when9 abc'ut the r,:ater runoff, sheets of water running off a roof.t a deck on the back but water runs on my deck and isn before it hits the ground. So I think you have to use asense on some of these things and can't say caLegoricallyn9 one rule that applies for each and every ]ot because itI've got two other lots there, or at least one other that
Ari Fuad: No m not but this ordinance might even preclude me from doirrg _the soil testing because in order to do the soir testing rve got to put acat doran there to clear- out an area for the Lruck to get down there to dothe soil testi.ng. And f ,ve a whole big question of how do I even go aboutaF,plyirr..]. fc,:- :, v,ari.arrce to put a house there? Because I do the soiltesting an:' then dc I have to spend $3,OOO,OO or !t4,OOO.OO to get abuilding pl6n for the site the uray I'd want it and then apply for avariance and then have it turned down where rd Iose my investment and then-har',<, t<, c(,rre JL1 with a new p).an for the other site if i decided to buildthere?
PIannin3 Con,r,ission Meeting
Augu:t ?1 , 7997 - fage 21
loc,Ls c,ver the L,iuf f . f would assume that in the future, if whomever buys
thaL w;nts to subdivide it and let someone build a Iot Lhere, they should
L,e allowed at least !o remove some of the big trees that are right on the
edge so it affords thenr a view. In the beginning on this ordinarrce trhen it
first came out and I got this letter it said thev were restricting the
c.Learing of the trees there so they can't have a good view. HeII, if you
do that, that's again decreasing the value of the lot because !,lhy did thev
buy it in the first place? They bought it to have the view. Now trhen vou
say that it's got to be back 30 feet, that doesn't applv. They could amend
this and say hey, if you urant to put it Iess than 30 feet, you have to mee!
certain requirements of soil tests. You can't Put it on obviously sandv
soil because that's not going to suPPort it. However, they can do that too
if the;' want€:d it hard enough or bad enough, vou could pilings down there
and support that house on pilings- There's another way of doing that too-
So I don't thirrk yc)u can come in here in a broad sense and sav hey, it's
got tr: bc 30 fee,t. That's iL. tle're drawing t'he Iine in Lhe sand- Anybodv
that ra.lks. over it, r^re're going to blou them out of the water - This
gentleman h:s a very good argument. You know he bought his lot for the
view. If he's rrct al ]c,wed to take advantage of that view, it decreases Lhe
value of his Iot and he spent good money on it. The same uay with the lot
that I't,e gc,t in Lhe future there. Somebody's going to want to take
advant-;rge cf th;t view of the bluff. If they say it's got to be back 30
feeL, it C:,creas€:s the value of the lot- Now if it doesn't meet the
requirement.s beceuse the soil is sandy or it's not buildable, then the
persorr ehould come bac,k in and prove that they can Put a house closer than
:lc f.. i urit l-rcul inrpacl-ing the environment and there are p number of ways of
doirrg it. J'tre gc,t e house in Florida that's built on the intercoastal
uaterNry. J:- has 5a pilinss under it. No Problem. If somebodv urants to
put a ii:rl-rs.c c.ios.er than that , they've got bad soil , if thev t'rant that view
baC en,:,r.r=l-,, thei' can make it r.lork but to come in and say hey' it's 30 feet -
That': it. Th;t's. t,rong. I think each instance, each lot has Lc' be looked
at i lr,liviciu:rl i;- and you have to make allowances for PeoPle to take
adr.ant-agr. c,f thc- view that they paid good monev for. Bv coming across and
sayin..: he-y. iL's ?O feet. That's it. Then you're decreasing lhe velue of
tlrr ict arrd i.hat's Nrong, Tha!'s mv oPinion. Thank vou.
Emmin,;:: Alrisl-,t. Thanli you. Yes sir.
Don Halla: I really just have a question that I'd like answered and that
is, hoL^r much problem have you had with this difficulty? How much erosion
probf enr:r l-,av€ you had on lots? Has it beerr a severe problem?
KrauES: IL's been a very severe problem. t^le have some major erosion
sites. Irr fact we just had a bus Lour where we took members of the
l.,linnesota PCA, Lhe DNR, Lhe Metropolitan Council, both tlatershed Districts
that are in there, soil conservation Service. In fact all lhese agencie=
we gave copies of this bluff line ordinance and most of them thaL have
responded are encouraging us to be more restricLive then we've ProPosed to
be. I F,rint out too lhat in Bloomington, the t^latershed District just got
thrc,ugh r,rith I think it was a $6 million dollar Project to rePair erogion
to a cre€.k bluff system along Nine MiIe creek that was basically caused by
develoF)nrent and Iack of f oresight. tjhat tre've ]earned is that once these
probl.-:mr star t , l-t'rere's real Iy hell to pay because they're very dif f icult
to stop. A couple c,f the sites that are highlv visible ancl I'd be glad to
Planri n; Conrn.is:iorr Meeting
AugLrst 21 , 7991 - Page 22
take e.n)' c)f yoLr out there. Thc.re's the Dypwick property and Bartalprop"rty - The;-e 's even been one that involves the City with the road tothe 9c,1f cou)'se. That one probably is conring the closest to be resolved atthis point. But Dypwick is on the verge of losing some buildings andBartal is concerned. that if the erosion continues he'Il lose his swimmingpool. t^lhen r^re took the Bluff Creek tour, the hiking tour that ure hadearlier this spring, I think walking around the bottom you saw, those of usoho were there, saw very visibly where these problems Here starting tooccur and you don't see them from the top. I know one sile we looked atwith a little bit of care was the new house that,s being built by theRedmond's and it's perched out ov.er the bluff. once these problems start.Hopefullv thev wo.'t start. clearly the desire is to prevent these thingsfrom happening irr the first place because once they start, they'reextremel y difficult to arrest.
Emnri ngs: An,c crLher inf orrnation r^re had is that the bluff areas irr sonrepLeces ar!:' ju't ve'v fragile and that even the change you get from buildinga house and just charrging, getting runoff even from the roof in some oflhese fragile are3s can cause erosion to begin to occur because you're just -gettin:, it mc,re ciirected. r guess we saw some of those places, !^le uent fora hit.in3 tour along Bluff creek last spring and we saw some examples of ith'ut the. peci:le that were a)ong from I think the Soil and tJater Conservat ion -Dislrict? Tlr,:y were aware of many other examples where there's similar :
I:,ncl jn cther c,jtieg where they are having problems. That's one of there6son] r,;.: f elt r.re had to get on top of this. The other thing is, you ,re
looking .;t jt from orr€ €rrd only and I think to some extent I'm thinking -abouL ii irr ternrs of looking at it from the other end. oo ure wantL.ui lcjl n.3: hanging out over a]] over the bluff? ft.'s one thing to sarseti,s: k 5 feet. rt's another thing when you talk about being out in someof thi,:r n:,tural areas and seeirrg homes hanging out over the bluff and isth:.', soncl:l-,ing we want . I don,t l,.nour but that,s another issue.
Don l i:-. 1:i: 0f,:.,. I,nr fanriliar with two of the properties that you'rereferlin:3 to. Or: ig the one that the City filled against u,ithouL ourFcr-nris:ic,rr (,rr cjlrT prcp€rty and runrring off of our property. Never askedperrni:=ion and heuled in several thousand yards of soil. 'Thinking it wassor,ebc'd;' e.l.s'e 's property and never checking it . They didn't properly putin the drains. Thev didn't properly put in culverts. They didn,t connectthem properly. They didn't extend drainfields properly. fh"y didn't putvegetation back on it properly. They did everything urong that they notrthrough their ordinance of anybody filling or anything, tiey,re extremelycritical of those people of doing it right and yet duiing utl of tti"periocJ of time the city has not come in and corrected the problem that theycreated- what thev did wrong even though now they,re very restrictive onothers- D>'pwick's property that you're talking about, whether he wasallowed to or whatever, he firled that area and built on filr. r mean theguv !",iEi s crazv to do it i n my estimation. rt had been there and hadn,t beeneroding for vears because of the fact that it uras a sheer- drop off. HeHant€d an € i:*,ra 1O-2O feet of property so he filled it with garbageliterallv. Demolition of buildings. Barrels. Evervthine tiat he couldget hauled in. Not clay fill. If he had put clay fiII i; there, heuouldn't have had a probrem. rt Has dumb on his part in my estimation.He's got hls problems caused by it. Maybe he has to spend like, if you'dIike to tafre a look at a couple of the warls in Edina where people have
PIarrr,i r:3; Comr: j ssion Meeti ng
Augus.t :1 , 191)i - Page 23
Emming:: Tlr;rrk you.
sperrt a, fc,it.:rre to make buildable lots. I live one block from one that I
thinir th,: Ict'--, stilI unbuildable but there's a $2 million dollar house on
top of it, ti,at they',.,6. put in 75 foot of retaining wal]. They have no
erosion pioblerns - It's pure sand. ft was done and engineered proper).y.
They ha,,re a Cri ver,ray that goes up at almost a 40 degree angle to do it and
they have to have heating coils and everything else but in fact thev
corre.te.d the problen,. t"Jhat I'm really iust pointing these things out ie
there's probably other remedies and necessarily building restrictions that
if somet,ocly gets Lhemselves into these problems, thev can ulork themselves
back out. Now certainly in the nursery business we deal with them everv
day - There's many different products that can be Put on sloPes - Anvthingl
from retaining t^laIIs to vegeLation that will hold almost anv sloPe there
is. Crc,,rr, r,etch thaL David mentioned is ohat thev use on the coalfields
out ea:t. Tha!'s where it was originally develoPed because iL's such a
sturd;.' F:lanl and takes over and it has a deeP root system so it does
prevert, er.rsion on crackly ground that has no food value in iL whatsoeve:-.
Hc:.; ., :,ir wr jtc tl-re ordinance and what you do with it I guess is Purely uP to
you bu'. r.rhat I'm trying to say is that there may be other remedies to some
of thc:.e thing:, encj I dorr 't think people should be allowed to PUt irr 15-20
foot c.f loo:.c fiII and then build buildings on them and then come back and
cc,mpl ai:-r ;.5our- th:nr Later . I don't think that's right either and vet I
thirrh t-hat the city should be an example. If they 9o ahead and do these
thinss, .-he)- should remetj/ the Problems that thev create in their own
maliing- !.i. h3ve a problem thaL we have been trying to Prevent being a more
major protlen:. That ia t,le have sojl erosion control structure - This is
goinj t r-, corri) up again sc I wiII bring it up tonight and it will be
aff .i.t,=; t,; thjs crdinarrce. That is we're back 15 years Probably at this
poir,i tttrcu3h th:9oil Conservat ion Lo prevent runoff on the nursery and to
ke.e F tl',i .,':, ller'. f rc,m eroding further uP. We Put in a dam anC Lhe dam was
engir,:,,-r'; J :.r;l :r forth by the SoiI Conservation Division. In that 1O inch
rajr, jt r,L:: rreakene,d subslantially. Ne have water running out of it arri
ther: on:. of thes'- days it's going Lo go. With the new ordinance on grading
and s,r fcrlh we c:an't ev€n really correct it. certainly we were giverr a
choic.c of putlin; in, ure put in about 600 yards Iast vear behind it-
Frani 1., thc- r,:-cl tape I hac] to go Lhrough, f uas going to do it agair, but
put t:p :. t,1o,aoc.oO bond in order to correct a problem which could be a
r,aj.r i:r'c,L,lerr for the people down in the valley later and to fill a vallev
that's been eroding for a million years and try to prevent the problem, it
wag.n.t worth it to me to go through the fight to correct a Problem th6t. I
know someday i.s going to harm somebody else because it's eroding out.
We've got somebody right now that savs hev, we'll give vou 3O'OoO to 50'oOO
yards of soil to fill Lhis behind this dam to prevent it. He Hants to move
it off the roacl out here this coming week. He can't do it because it will
take 60 c!.a7s in Lhe process to be able to do it. And yet it's something
that urou.ld prevenL the type of problems that you're talking about right nor.l
because if the dam structure goes, it would be a major problem. t^lhere do
all theee things work? HoN does an ordinance handle situations like
thai? That's wlry I asked about hor,l much of a Problem it is because I think
thcrc's a lot of different ways of controlling er9sion besides just having
an oriinanr-e r,lhich wculd prevent peoPle from usirig the Property and lhc
vier,r that t!'rcy b,ought the ProPertv for. That's all I have !o sav-
PIanni n; Cor.r,ission Meet i ng
August ?1 , 1cic,1 - Page 24
Davj.; f1:. 1ia: f heve one nror.e comment. I've been sitt!ng here listenirg tot,hi::r: I L:,jr.l: Lheie's a raLher easy solution to this situation. youpeopl€ recuire a building permit - okav? rn that building permit it couldcurt.sil -,:m:;nr: going out Lhere and I think it,s aLready being done ,ph>'sic;llv i nspecting the site and making a determination whether it looks -feasibLr:. A', Lhat point they can say, okay. If they want to put thishousr r.rithin 10 feet of the bluff or make the variance over the 30 feet,thev hsv: tc cc soil borings to substantiate that the ground is solidenough an,C jt's not goj.rrg to erode. you can also make jt a requirementthat they provide proper vegetation on the sLope if the slope is disturbedbv the excavating so that you put it back in as good a condition or betterthan uh.:+- vou found it. r think most homeowners uould be more than willin.j -to spend. the extra dollar to preserve their or.rn property. okay? so that'ian ea.y utsy to do it. InsLead of coming along and arbitrarily saying hey,it's goins tc, t,e 30 f ee:t. That's writt.en in blood. That's it. Nod":r,i.:l-i:,::-. If ,,ou .uont a var-iance you know, we may or may not go about it -anri pe 6,;le ccrnin.g along fronr the Wat.er ard Conservation or Soilconservat iorr sav'i ng hey, it should be 50 feet back you know. r think eachsite has tc L.r: looke,d at individually. you can clo that in your buiJdingpc].nrjt s.i:t;trrr Nhi,n sori'reone says he;.. I want to take advantage of my lot.r war,t tc, trLJt ,r) hc,use cLoser to the bluff so r can appreciate the view andgel tlr: v;lui cf nri property from doing that. Nou, my brother's talkingabc'lt tl-,i =. dar:. : ncr he was telling me all the hoops and everything lhat theywar,t:J i-,irr i: junp t-t',1'eu9h. r built thai dam. The soil conservationpeotrIe carrr. c-,t arrd cjes.igneC it and lhen they didn't t^rant to cost sharet'it-lr it t..:c:u:.: the,.. 1E11 iL wasn't enough watershed to protect. f,l,:i l, tf," -thing., t l;: {:r'(.::(,rr !.,J.i s. going back utr in th€ f jeld for about a city blockan'J i r: v:).- i.i.t dete lnri. nation et that time that we wanted to presei-ve thatproF,c r+-)' .';,: r,,:.- cont inue, tc, have jt erode !,.ack farther up in the field and -by prr'-: i r-,: tiri= da;c in, u:e did tlrat. Okay? Not,r over the years, I told my ibrc,t l-,c: L-,rt hc l',;cl to keep mairrtaining that thing you knor.r anci he got alittl:'l-il lax in it and he did have some erosion-fiom the big raini and so_fc,;tl. ::,;j u,1,.::-r l-re warrted Lo 9o back there and repair it, the Fi.nni;3- - -- :Comnis: jc'ri h*rc lit;r'ally rnade him jump through hoops. t^lanted him tJ put I
in alI 1".i r.:'-, cf b.c rr,:is, a nc.i guerantees and stufi Iike that and I in plainlan3aug':, tl-''er-'s ar:inirre. Here again you've got bureaucracy getting in the -we';' cf cc)iirr.ron s,srrs€,. A situation like that where the people took ii uponthemselves, at their expense to prevent the erosion of soil. protect theenvirorrnient. Anytrody wal ked out there and ]ooks donn in that canyon and -1can se? hcw what we did prevents the further erosion of that canyon doun ithere' llev, it's a good deal . But noh, to come in and say you can't t..pthat maintained. you've got to have a permit to come in there and put soiron it, I thlrrk that,s stupid. Now Dypwick on the other hand, that was an -under the table deal that the city concocLed and alrowed this rngram tohaul !n his cler,nolition materials and r sah, those trucks go by and r calledup here and complained about it. I said hey, you can't 5e dumpinsden'c]itlorr in there and building on lop of that so that's r.rhy Dypt:ick did,He crest",j his or.rn problem and the city then should, if you want to dos'c,n:rthir,! Iil:e thiE, put some Leeth into it and say hey, rf people screi^rup an-i ,i: st-uff like this, they've got to be resionsible. It,s the samewav r'r i t-h Lhe Fol lutic,n control has on urrderground stor.age Lanks. rf theyle;k,;n,r pi-:;. fo. it. okay? If these people do stuff iike that, they cancorne ir. anci br- he)d responsible for it ancl you know, if you make a p"i=or,respc,r';il.l: f >r' buildirrg closer- to a bruff when they have an erosiorr
Fler,nin;,:ornn,igsion Heet i ng
Augusrt :1 , 1q?i - F.rge 25
c(,r,tr( l prc'blsn, and they take care of it on their owrr, they're going to do
i*- ri.:hi becar-,:t ti're.v don't want to spend tha+. money !o clean up if the;-
screw u:. anc do it wrong. But PeoPle like Dypaick that did th3t where the
Cit,' allowc..J thern to haul in that debris for years and years and years an.J
never s.c.rut jrrizLd it and as far as I know, they are still hauling that
stuff in there. I!'s a good cheap way for Ingram to haul in his demolition
material arrC his stunps and stuff like that and that's not good fill but it
was allor,red to go on. You knou that sLuff is urong but you couLd
write thjs ord-inance in a way that you make PeoPIe that build closer to the
3o foc't- tha'- >'ou're talking about be resPonsible for the erosion and be
f inancia.l .L- responsjL,Ie for the c.Iean uP if something hapPens-
Emmings: Ol.iay. Anybody else that uants to be heard on this?
Hark Hella: I jusL wanted to add a little bit on the dam that we have and
thar- ur= builr- since I've been working on it myself mainly t-rying to get
Cit-,' apF rr",': i ae recentlv as 10 or 20 Phone calls today to the Cit'r
Manag.r' . Ll., have haci this danr for years. I believe it r.ras built in 1972.
Jt.g. rrri:-iair,in3 a rough estimate of 3oo,ooo to 4oo,ooo gallons of water.
It dr.;ins atrF; oximately 35 acres. The torrence from the raine tha+- we had
ju:t !t,is sl-,ring moved boulders that probably weighed 4oo-5oo pounds each.
Hor,r: J t-he :; i:',i-3 the middle of the Pound so there's quite a bit of drainage
co;ri r,:. jnt(, '-his area. Nhat I don't understand is if you're going to adoPt
a bl'.-;f f F'c:'- "'i*-ir:, item Iike this to Protect it, then whv is not the Citv
helpin: t:.rc,te('t it c,rr it's owrr. It has an area that is right across the
v.J2) {:- ;' n, 1i I
h4Yrir-i..r,
+?^-, ,-+t'^ _.-_
r.J€. m--,'rt ic,n th
dL l- /-
f r or.iprcl;I
uarrtS.
rea I Ipot:
and I
pr c,ba
.ite
AI I
r,rhei-+ I built my home that thev fiIled u:ithout
cl lousy fil] in there. Chunks of concrete - ChunLe of
sorts of things. They did it exactly dead utrong v€t not'J
thenr arrd said you didn't even have Permission. Can you
piles do'.rrr so I don't sit here and look at these pi irsat to
tlr:
llr i'
i:i
t.,
rr: i.r i.c,ua,e - S,o they did that but ever since then now we have a
in r ?\re] se orr Lrying to maintain our own dam- If the City really
acl',i:l arr c,r'di nance and help the bluf f , then thev really shoulci
e . 1 i l':.:.'- *.. y ral-her than allor^ring somcthing. If our dam goe = to
ti,el- kr+-er runs through, I Personally have seen i! 3 to 4 feet deep
I s;id, il-'s rushing so quicklv that alI Lhe rip raP we put i.n,
4?-5c tonc of it, washes into the Pond and we need to dredge that
out with a backhoe. tlhen you have that much water running, maybe you Hant
to sonretime: help the citizens that are Lrving to work on I guess
prese:'vin3 thr,t bluff. As far as I'm concerned, if we don't get help'
maybe *e'ie L,est off to let it go to pot and r.re maybe will lose some fjeld
but I can afford to lose that if in the return Lhe city realizes that it
r.:aE a bis nristake not to a.I low us to fitt and maintain it. rt can be quite
cosilT if you have that many acres of ground lelting the uraLer through.
The t,je darnage was: done in that 10 inch rain. tle got it mainlained last
year b,i putlirrg in some fiII and restored it a bit but even this sPring w:
didn't have a probJ.em with the washout simply because we restored it. tJ€
prob;L-,Iy uould have but like I said, if we're moving boulders that bis, it
se€.rT,s tc, rTre ure shouLd consider allowing peoPle that are trying to rePair
thin:.- t : [i.',.'- F th: bluf f Iooking good, r're should consider allowing them Lo
do si e,-,ii rr!-,t reotr ict ing ther'.r. Less they get the attitude of reaL ly not
gir..ir,g .:: d.amn about the bluff and letling it erode simply because they r,tere
nct ailor,re: lc- x,::intain it thernseltres. So I would hope in your Planrting
thal ),n1 r.rould consirler trying to r^ror k uith the concerned citizens as well
Pl a nni r, l
Au9'-'--'.:1
anC rrot : j r,:.1>' adci+.in3 gonrething that
tryjng tc Co g,rci L,z ttre bIuff. Tharrk
Emmings: Ujhat is your address?
does shuL out those people tha+- ar€you.
Jim 9ulrruci: My na:mt is Jinr guIerud. I live within the area.
Jin S,ule:'ud1 73O Vogelsberg Trail. I think one thing that hould behelpful a.r.C probably uorthwhile because the area has a diversity ofproblenrs, evej'y parcel of ]ot is not experiencing the same problem.sonrething th6t mighi be helpful is to develop a specific plan Iike you dosimilar to a land use plan in minature but as to what specific actionsyou're lcol':i ng for on each parcel of rand because r think you,ve got somesituations urhere you truly r^,a nt to maintain the status quo. That is leavetrec3. r-6:r,-,. th" current bluff line. llaintain the slope at urhat it is andother :i*u.:t j.rrs yciu have eros jc,n that has occurred that you want to;ci,.: I 1..' :r ing :bout sorne repairs. Haybe some fiIIing is appropriate -
Ctt l',:.:' trlar es t'.,::-: nra,. L.e situations where you've had f ill that isinapprr, ''r'i::t: th:,r ought t-o be rernoved or may take some special action toretrair- . 9: I r- !-,! rrL yorr har,,e a var j.ety of circumstances existing thstvou'r.- Lrli na t-o so.Lvc r,ii!h a non-specif ic ordinance. r trould think thatjt r..;o,-r I cJ L: ve r i. :rslFfuI . The area is not that extensive and I knothe:'.": n ilr: arl mile: cf line that you,ve identified btrr- I think it,suelL *:,r']-h >'our r.:hi.Le looking at all the headaches over the years, to gc,throui:r e-r,- 11 p'- ,1 ; I .r-.,. :d,rntif >' urhich of the areas that you intenci to
ma j nt::l:', the :pecjfic bluff line. Thet would help this gentleman. Ituroulc hnlp Lh3 HnlId's. Are vou trying to resLore? rs iillins appropriateirr thr,t : a,,i:,.- L>. the HalIa,s or is it not? Certainly there,s a naturalerosic,:r Ll.i:t. cc.:urs , h;re cccu:-r-ed over hundreds, thousands of years thr+-ha: cr:ated wh;,r, y.,--,r,re calli.ng the blr.rf f line right now. Jt wasn,t thebILrf r lin- 5iO y:.:r',- agrj. S,o you're picking a point in ti.me and sayingr.:ell .. l,is. is xhat,s: 6ppropriate. Maybe in my neighborhood r,ve looked forthe cit: ti:. cl.velcp a fill plan to just keep TH 1o1 fronr falling in and wet-..,,--.:rr<i\.-,, - ,....:,:i. t.: : l,rr'iroca t i o n !here. rt doesn't either add or detract frornmv prop.--r ti. rt's jus! something +.hat ought to be done because the erosionhag c.ccrrr.cj c,vei recent history but r thj.nk that r.:ould be a u:ay ofa'ccJre:::r,3 ecch of the pcopl.e on each of their sites in a way that's veryhelpful to +,he* arrd !o the future or.Jners to let them know .hut yo*intentions are. l,Jhat that may mean is you have to define a more specificPurpose for the orclinance in the first place. That is r.lhat is it you'retrying to do. Are you tryi.ng to maintain the status quo? Are you tryingto get to a positiorr of holdi ng a certain bluff rine or r don't thinkthat's rea.I clear'. r think in general people appreciate what you're tryingto do but the ques.tions that are raised seem to indicate that there areproblem: with that. I know there,s some very obvious problems that you,readd;e=sing. r:r the business fringe area a pole barn was eiected. A nretar.shed thcl ha: tremendous erosion behind it. Througrr tne ururr creek arealhere's varic,us s,ites of some places where there's extensive erosion. CrLhe;-Flace : r.Jh1:i: tlrcr3's garbage f illing and art of this would address a!r cfthi.t. I tl,.i;ri' c:-,a L,ig problem that the planning commission faces all thetimc a n.-.J i: e::irr raised here tonight is the question of va:,iancee. fdorr't i.:r-'1.: if yc,u carr gct aL it. probably nc,t through this ordinanc,e butif '.hcr':': alu.,:y.s en avenue for someone to come !o you Lo say uell mysituati<,n is:. little bit different. rt's realLy ti-re out that hopefully
f lan;:inJ C oi:;. i se i or l-1eet i n9
1!91 - Page 27fiugJs
r.roul,jr,'L s.upF,c.rt the orcij nance but if for instance the example that this
gen'. ]er,.n h;;s. He t^rouId Iike to have a certain view. t^lelI uhat is the
inte n'. c,f thr ordirranc.e in that regard? I don't think it's been very clear
to give hi:r guidance or to Mr. Halla's other lots. Are those 2 trees or 3
trees crjtjcal '.o lhe ordjnance? I don't think you've said whether that's
critical or nol to maintain those trees or is that a violation of their' own
rights of properiy owners to prevent them from cutting down those trees' I
think you need that guidance. However, when someone asks to build within
the 30 foot line anC have a variance, what guides you on that? Just if
it's buildable? Mr. HaIIa again pointed out and I think vou've seen in the
past a E;c,c,d engineer can build on any site and can Proiect over the bluff
or tehatever They can put a swimming PooI anyulhere. Thev can float themin
the air. You can clo anything so I think to raise the question is something
buildable is no'- heLpful to use. Not helpful to the Citv. I think the
City has to develop some firm guideline as to what the outcomes thev want
ar? ct t-!.: ,Jif f cren: ProPerties. Because someone can always come in r'rith a
bu.ild.:l le rlan anC if thaL's a]l that's necessarv then you for all
pra.:il.:c I pl';:;::t= ha''e no ordinance. I'd like to see that aPproach with
regarC t,c trroF,e rr,!es, throughout the city because I think the city is on
loosa f r,r', in'g r,rh:-n p...(.;pl i! co re to the Planning Commission to aPpeal because
the i' s:,, t1-,o-).' cerr accommodate, can preven! erosion. In this particular
casc s:J I tl,irrii thc:' can make a plan for that but in the long run it mav
not.t.c in thc best irrteres,t. Because I live within the buildable area or
irr th.- de f ine,l are: and I'd like to maybe go from a l car garage to a 2 car
garagc someda;', I'C lilie to see somethi ng sPecific on saving that hc'mes
t.;ithi n I i..:-. +- arc.r cculd maybe have a 25e. oY Sola square -footage fooLprint
addaci c.n. gorrreth j rr9 specif ic so tha! we know what we have to deal with.
I tl-,in!: th" prrepec.Live that you have to take in this particular cese,
3CC >'e, r. -: to .,:- l:.; sl- estabLish those Palterns tshat peoPle see in the eae"-
co=el arrl r,:l,ile I probablv don't intend to be offensive, I think the
l-iall:'s aJ. l-,.:'€ fot- a few years and they'II be here for a feu years mor-e
but it':. cf rerr: ivc-, to me that their aPProach where they intencl to or give
the fla;ol. of thern being here before the city and uill be here after the
city. I thjnk you have !o hear words of encouragement to stand uP arrd
make decisions that are here for the long haul . And the Halla's are acting
in their self interest as probably I'm appearing here in my self interest.
I think you end the rest of the citv urould be urell to think of the, vou
kno! they r^reren't here 2oo years ago. They won't be here 2oo years from
nor.r but your decisions will be- Thank you-
Nancy Le€: l'1y name is Nancy Lee. I own the ProPerty at 1o5oo Great
PIains. Most everything I Nanted to sav tonisht has alreadv been said bv
all the other c:oncerned PeoPle. I agree that rather than being totallv
restriitive.J, vre should probably Iook at each site individuaLly and I think
through the Lruilding Process the City a.lready has'the control that thev
nee,j and that that building wiII come through wiLh all of vour perrnits,
buildi rr., pern,i!s, p.Ians. that lhe Citv has the power to make sure that vou
ha,,,e proper enginee;-ing plans. That you have proper plans that are not
goirrgi r:o i:e citstructive to the bluff. I guess I see Lhat if they ccntinue
L,ec.au:e t r-,is: l.luf f lineg are established over thcusands of years, is a
Long term per:;pect-ive. As a Planning Commission hopefully you take that 'all tl,. Lir,; arri all your deliberations ' ALthough you're the Planrring
Comir, i : -", i,:.:, f;,r- 19?1, I Lhink that the decisions vou make certainly Put
hou:'e s ir, F'lacc. F'ut roads in place lhat last for 1OO years or hopefull'v
_ -': ri:i_-ital-l Heet i ng
i,-..i-,€r- rira!3ur€s, we shouldn't have a problem rather
"-r
ict iv; - The:r I have anot-het questi:n as f er as ho*uff g:ltack affect a prope:ty? I guess I'm thinking:;''rr 3cin-t to consider that it's the entire pt'opcrLyt clo I cio in a case like that?
don't undersLand your question.
t ha rr t,e i rrJ
rn.r ny t imc:. -i rr my, c a::e ,or clo::
tc,i:, I1,
cer'-l-,i:
Lo i'-.
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Lh
vi\e
Emn i n?: : I
Nancy L€.: f guess as far as the setbacks andCegree= anJ etc-rything that uJas laid down, sayIike that sr, t:rat I have multiple bluffs on mybluf f .
everything according to the -
my property happens Lo g:property instead of just one
Ernr-in;:: I3 that i r-r fact t"Jhat happens?
h),'Pot-rr.t r: ,l: n-,.:-e , i.: l- could be here alIl-,ag;-,r::. : :: r-()i,: ;rt,peri-7,?
I don'tnisht.want +-c
Is that
if we get into
hrhat actua I l,
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h:.:n't s.at arrd looked at the degrees and things like that.,-r,i on ?12 that goes straight down. Is the railroad tracksL:rr;;uJlc-cj, ic that consjcjered the start. of a l,luf f ?':nc of rny concerns, Tha! happens to be a business fringeg-ress already ue've gone through some very restric,tivtti thc- point tha+* I'm trying to sell it because the Ciiy,+-c. L,uild nny busi ness there or anything of the likes so rnyI i'- .:nC if I continue to 9e|- mor-e resirictions on it, Ie;rrcl it does me no gocC to sit there. I guess one other tl- j*.. se)., ir- has nothing to do wiLh that laet comment is this:. c clrnn,.rit that he "Ioves the bluf f ,, . I think most the)' property on the bluff an.J plan on building on the bluff i>' lci,e tne Lluff arrd they're not about to do something t l-,:.+-':l-': L:Iuf f . f guess Lhet's all I had to say.
CE
g€
P:
:.
na
r"'-:: ..,,: !:,, ---..rr : j,m Verne: geverson at- (.7a Lakota Lane. Lje live on th€bl::f .J. ',1: h:,,: a br.autif ul piece of property and I guess wh6t I have t.osa;, i: Fr'.t.-), r.':uc h the same as what everybody else his been saying but I,.,er,t t: re inf orcr: a fer"r points. That is that u,e Iike Lhe intent of theordinance. tJe Lrant to be good stewards of the ]and. As property ownersure're n.:- g.,ing to do anything that's going to damage our'p]-operty and whenure got this crdirrarr.€. it looked more Iike, it looked like it uas somethi.ngconl'ronie.:ioi,aI. rt didn't lcok Like it was something there to help us.Jt'e s(,:,r kincl of an ordinance that's being put out bi an emergency gtat€.commit!:; cr sirnething, t^Je feel that the people of the city work for us.t'Je're thp taxp.verE so we would welcome any kind of guidance that wculc
.h.J? != protecl ou)- properLy and as has been mentioned before usingbui lcli r''.: pcrrrits r think courd be a good rnethod. you do it with t,iirc.:.e=ncr.l . ':',:,rr ,: ii ,lith installing seirer syste:rs and I look at that as a Lr6>.of thi C j t-r 's he lping rn. tc pyotect my Land and to protect the jnve:....nentr pr;': i:','-: i'-. : r-hink that somethins Iike that 'r^rouId be more appropriatein t-hi: sit:L::tiorr arrci agairr as somebody. else mentioned, each piece ofPrc,i::r tr i-r di f f':r'c-rrt. Each piece of propel.ty has it,s ourn problems ani Ithi;-,1. t l-,,:;- aeci havc to L,e looked at individually. I guess what jt t,oiIs
dor.t ri I :, i r t- h.1r* .-, s a property owner I resent having th; City teIl. me
F1.::,",ir - C..,r",:r,i::i,-.;, He;'.ing
i,.,-ri. :. :1 . 1c.1 - F.ag. 2e
exect I -:. h(,!,
Emn, i nEs :
hear i ng?
Batzl i moved ,favor and the
Emnri ngc: I n
comments ot' a
Iot of p€c,P1e
I think t
sugg'--.t L
unt hi rr k,:, i,
f c6 r-r Lrse
r: ott iL ot-
El lson
motion
my property. I would wefcome the Cityprotect it from being damaged. Thank
+=l li-^ t- i^,,
you.
Anybociy else? If rrot, is there a rnotion to close lhe pubLic
seconded
car r ied .
to close the public hearing. All voted in
The public hearing was closed.
resPorrs:e, f guess just as a general resPonse to sonre of the
Iot of the comments that have been made here- I think LhaL 5
that s,poke are looking at this a lot differentlv than I am.
f'm gule each individual ProPertv is verv unique but tc evar,
ue coulcj develop some kind of ordinance that would be a
f c)r each individual Piece of Propertv is just, it's
l,.je cejn't c,peraLe that wal. I think what w='re trying tc' do
li:!r scm: kind of minimal standards so that t': = don't r':ind up
with
n6i-u
a ilaj
^'t I
t l'ri
-.- 1-
Le ::;:=. tiith *-he L,luf f . Looking a! the bluff as a veYy valuacle
c:,:i.rra ,-. f otrl cornr:iunity. A really unique f ea!ure of our cornr':unityF
tha.l th:re's sonre nrinimum standards in Place that e-'c:'vt'cCy
- - t.- -,. .,,,. I don't think He u,ant to see engineering solu',-ione
eclge. I think that's, exactly what we cion't t;:. r,'- tc'
things? Sur-e. I'm srrre there al'e. You knol'j
luj on the sides of hills all the time and then th';)'
ural disasters that PUt these houses down a*- t l-'e bottom
tr I- :
, ri
-.' r,5 i-
,,1 lre clc,rr't everr r.iilnt to see them hanging over the hill. I
x :..yi r-,.:; is, sure the bluff 's bcen eroding for, you knor'l
I k abo
Some
eii- pr
ee
Ca
COcf
I if ornia, the
+ t-,-.- - , -l l
uh:t €...,. r ..
Lha:. Tl.i
hcre i: f;
rr'L Lrrr,w hor.r Iong but since thc glaciers went through a ricj cut
:t';.1 .l thc l.later- coming fron the glaciers cut those valleys or
:',:l thc:"ve b,ec-n eroding ever since. And we're not trying to stop
'-'3 not , : gJc-=3 that's no+- our coTlcel'Il . I guess the conc€:'n
i- t-hc impact '-hat develc,pment brings' The increase in erosion.
inr,:r',-:. associated with develoPment on the bluff . Looking at
a: a uniqut natural resource. tJe dorr't hrant to see engine€rj n€'
f : r.i: r,t to just kind of try and preser-ve them as the;- arc. You
c,uiners r,lon't do anything to hurt their ProPerties and
u'- Jeff Dypwick. You can'! sav both those things at the
peoiJle even !,,ihen they're well intentioned hurt themselves
operty and the Problem is, again as u,e 've been told is
ar i- I
t - .,: i
then Yo'..r t- ii
same time.
and hurt th
that the s.e areas are so fragile that once a bad erosion Problem develotrs,
it's veri' difficulL to do anvthing abouL it. At least in Places.
Depenciin: r,robably on what the soils...and that's why having financial
gu6rantees to have those people be financially responsible uron't even solv€:
ihe p;oLlen. Anyr.ray, with those comments Lre'll start doxn here'
Ahre r,s: i a5i-ee HiLh everything steve has said. I haPPen to think Lh=t
this is a very ure l.I written ordinance. I also didn'l ge! a chance to go
thr,.u!5 a I I +.-he comrnents on the Soi I and l^later conserv6Lion Distr ict anc
u:..:rsi.::l ! js.tric+- Lut f can s,e,e that there are some things in her-e that I
thin!: s i:.,r-, 1l ba included in our ordinance and I think we should table this
trntil r.;: car: inccrPorate sorne of those changes.
F;rril;,i.::.: I wr,.rl.j also agree wilh most of the things that you said. i
th!r,i 1l,ere js.. difference between self interest and conrmunity interest.
Plarrnin
Aus r: t
Ja )rirnI9.3Ioir
,...1 - F'
Meet i ng
I hz I j:v; +- l,at there 's a dif ference a.l.so between def jr,itiorr of develcrir,cnta;,:' tiaeerv.:ticn. t^Jhat I see here is, and I respect your individual rigl-,_to lt: i .: *- thi: frc,rr volrr personal piece of property but the communit;- alsohas an i rl-eresL in preservation of natural resoulces in this aree. I thir,Ithat- this, is gocc' Iegislation to do that. It,s easy for me to sit herebccau:r: I d:i:'L o,^ln property on the bluf f and I'm sure that's what you ,re
thinking l,ut. the intent of this is to preserve some of that and obviolrsl>,in any t)'p. cf zoned community or any type of preservation situation,you're gcing to have to give up some right to do that. There's a give anda tale th.r'e. rf you're going to preserve, you're going to have to curtailson:e development and that's a given. Gettjng back to the actuallegielation itself, the comments that were made by the Soil and UaterDistrict ancj fronr the Attorney here, r think that those are valid comineritsnad: a:.J I think that also we shoul.d table this until those areincc:rare'-r'-: i:r .- he.r c .
-:)
i:!
t h€
P. t l".li r- e.l ;' ;u'" J.ff . I'n not 9oin9 to repeat what's been s:, j.C bur-I
ndful
tJ O!
t.; h.-
t:,
. +1.
; ch.:n:c at son'e point to talk about some of these changes a7")'. acLual.ly ! rirpr ove.:rie nts or not. I think it woulC be he Lpl:rtct': 6i:c,t-i6n to the start of the orCinance.
5nrr i ' ... : -\'r. .: -
E:t:l.:
ri.: I l
s*.aIt
c':hr,:' things go in the definition?
..
E ia
ca i.
Cl,a;', a-j1c,(J . And I think the irrtent is in the ordinance anclf i,:, i-:rr'L pl'eeerve the bluff and we aIlor^r other people, r,o
n,€r ning t hr--i. may t,e, we're not all going to justice tc, ihe t
.: ir.5 1.:r L'e erosion. There,s going to be things hanging ove :.i Lr t.:, sc.e the bluff preserved so as nct to rui.n it becausei. t:' tjs i'- ;round for Lhe next f ce Age to get it back.
I
I uf f .
it-
I
+
f r :.: ::-. :-".- 'r-,i.,-
1:; ! i i rr3 *armer I thought.
Emnri ngs: Oh yeah. Annette.
Ellson: r think we still have variance procedures there but r don't thinkthe huilcing permi! area would be a very good location to try to handleeach inclit,idual eituation. I can just see everyone saying well you letthia !iu' co this and he had what have you. rt doesn't woik in tire buildin.gpermit s<, I think that's why ule have setbacks for everybody and things )ikithat. I have trouble believing that you Iose so much of iour view at 30f ee'+- - r don't krrc, how manv people on the bluff right no,, ih"t meet this.Actu:1l.r, there's probably quita a few. I don,t life tne idea of tharra:u'al kluff ha"ing housee sticking out on it just like you said i.nfai ifc'r ri; cr right now thet a property orne. cin go and clear cu". it ifthev ',;anted to b€cause literallv they could and we,d like to hope that thsy
l-,,:. f,' i:-.in.:-t:ion: not tc do that but I'rn no.- going to be able to stop thatrigl-''- r,c,:: anci J c:,n't lil'e the Iook of a house sticking out. I cicn,t thirk3C f:.: i: t-h:t l:ig a deal. f,m a little confused aboui, is it Ari? His
s !t:. i jt, - - 'Ih;+- >',: '-'re rroL plre ir-ive that ),our
ie : L,:i l,:J:,1:i: Ic'- :'.,c-r', u:Lhou*. i.t so you t,rent
ho. ! rr., )"--'-r c.:i. lJ se L r- ha! second . That uJasn't
Ari Fuad: Nc, it's buildable without this ordinance because.
rl;.:.- j- j l:n-:::i:.:, Hc++-:r,;
,...,,L.'. ?1 , 1997 F'a5. :'1
EII=or,: Yci hadn't done the soil information
Ari Fuad: I diCr, 't feel I needed it because
and it r,ra: actual ly not even on the bluf f . . '
preferential builcjing pl ace
ahead and purcha=ed i+-
confirmed even whe :r you
stuff though.
the road went through there...
tha! in urith a grading Pcrmit. T:i.!-
if they are to be extensive Ita.j:rrg10. That that Pulls You to a PerixiL
be doing any stairways or the Lifts
Ells
Lhen
thei
r,a::
aCciiir b
u: he n
thin
cr: n
L-, -
u.i,u L
as: -':' : nr e: r- h
t-r i-: tl-. ,r-1
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r-,-i. t - -.-- Z.Ji
sa i-: t'.j: s
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r t'
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thl,t
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I think everybody trould like this orciinance to b'e next door t-t'
r i:h'- around them it uculd all be protected. They don't want iL on
rcFprty. I think a]l the PeoPIe that have it risht now that dcn't
::* -. re' t:it-,ly gr.endfathered in excetrt if thev uant to keeF adJiri'3
:r: ti i',. Therr righ*- rroui they have more rights '.han somebody corning
tlre i,':. ;Lhtre i',- 5totrs, They can't tomorrow have adCitional or''es
.). hant tc, I.uilcl and the ProPerty next to lhem u,jants to builci ' I
hat's fsir-. I don't think it's fair to sav bv Lhe wav' vou're
'| l-,ered in ;,nd vou're grandfathered in to anvthing that )'ou add aIs('
u,561'; t-hc;. start right no'..l . I'rn for it anC I think thaL ther.: is
;' : :=ccia) circumstance. M6ybe for this gentleman and mayb'e that'
:: th.: v;riance . If he bought it urith that i n minC and t'les given
t- that's L,ui ldable for him and we tak€ that auray, that seems
sjtuatior that's in the middle. Ycu said vou had qui'.e a
s and he werg eTie c.f them I'm sure but all the rest were
o:- t- i', e: I think there's e lot of People out there tha" are
.i;rC:. great that aren't here tods)' so that's it-
Lr :i. ti
t. ]
.,D
I
E t l-,e pr (,( c3s t hat sonre5crdy has t o 90 thr ollgh if t r'ey 'r e
i L,r1'r? I saLl sona wot'ds, tl're Permit- shall not be gr"antei - Is
r.t':i, i1- th:.t gc)es. along?
OIs.,-r,: 'i+;h, w:,'l-e 9oir,g to like add
if the y':-e r..;ithin that bluff zone and
over th'i 5O cubic Yards I think. LO?
proc.ecs. Tl'ren also if you're going Lo
within the bluff but the setbacks'
Conra.cj : 9c the builcjing insPector Nould trigger that?
OIsen: Th: building insPector?
ao.r a.: !.ihat r.r:uLd trigger that for a homeowner? Pulling a build:n::
nl:-- -
LOrr:-j
urc,u I d have
that wou.!.d
to get a building Permit 'for that-
trigger looking at this zone?
tr1.,:.,_. - l:rt.:t.-==i.t:r ^1 _=t_ii!
is on
tha".'s
O.l.:c-n:
Pe rli: j::Y+al', . Then once t his zone
r-cn -., thr.ouglr, tr igr3e r that
the
in
raP, then
the bluf r utherr thog.e buiI Ci n;
zone,
C:orrail : i.1,. ti.L,l ci,'L auton.lticaily ask for a permit, tJhat would u:e?
Olsen: u:ll if they're just building the home andIf the;' r,:-;t that setback. Then they don't requirepermiLs. It's once they get i.nto th6t impact zonealteraticr'r wi Lhi n that.
that's the 30 feet back.
any other additionalthat there's 9oin9 to be
Emnings: Or woulcjrr't it be true too that if we're looking at asubcjiviei:n, Lhet- would be for an existing subdivision. But oneubciir,,jE j:n ure'd have to look at that and,be able to set thoseset th.: buffcr zone along the ]ake up in the ner Lundgren Bros.Y:,t:'d i.inc u;, sc^tt jng t !-rc,se in a subdivision f suppose.
nei,l
just 1i ke r.;ethirs.
goi n9 t. bu jld-
.:
of t h..
Corit-ai' !r .-lri) a-c
i- .t-. ! :,--,: ----- ,.',']-, ., -'..|,.
90r ng
s.3 Lhey
t-o. . .this hypothetical property,s
hove to fill out a permil?
c.lgi'r: Tl,e ar';-.,i rg ;cr-mit, if it's part of the L'uilding permit then we can-caich :.:,r: : r' i'-,
g;- a cii ng perrnjt?
Y:al-,, Lh:.re's ti.,o Cif feren! ones. If it.s just going to be the Irii'.i,i;, an:l like the stairway and rernovins the alieraiion ancir-:-, tFa'-'e wirst we'r-c Lalking about kicking tho=e in with like lhe -rpe:-;:.!t or grading out a site urithin that bluff inrpact zone. rhat 's Iii;:. T:rc'.'e Nhen we're going to try to pui that undernea?_h tha
Tr're r /c:u alsc, have a building permit just for the building-
ail.., This alteration of vegetation is probably where I'rn g.ingy: lr-'3, rrc'. pernriLted within that impact zone buL Iimited ciear
!- jnj{-cd :1earing, Nc,t clear cutting. Hor^i is that determined?i.rho goc,= out, the building inspector? It's pretty loose.
Clr :^''
---J ir --
Sornebo,:r.,
Olsen: I thinl on< of the things that we're going to add is that ifsornebodv ci:lLe anc we dailv get calls about people who want to clearof thei:' i,e;.-tatior,. t,lhat we usually do is we,Il go out to the sitethat's rrhr". wi Nere going to put. I think I,ve soi it in here where
wcir). C a,-, a: : to the sile . . ,
some
a nci
ConreC: An:i r"ha:'s the guideline?
Th.-; rc:1lv ian'+
Con:-.r,::: !.o :t's .*-af f s,5ying that this is
r^rh.: t I finJ irr!-:::-e3ting on this ordinance
lie ard t,: irla:,t r,er€ really good comments.a Ic,,:1.. .;l th: sit: inclividually. I thinkin a lc,t c,f casee. This sovernment can do
probably appropr iate? y<,u knour
anC I think aII the conimente f
Arrd some of the requests say takephilosophically I agree i,rith thai, -that. It's a case where we look
a.r'I ii's g:ing to be treated kinC of like a uetlanJ.
L.,-,-' ;'
at r.retlar-,cj: i':r(jivjciirally arrd we could look at bluffs incijviduallv an:i
dct:rn,ir.: if uc had the resources what's right but as Steve saicj ,practicalL> s,Fc.-kirrg r.:e just really don'!. This is an exampLe, at Iea:t
lhe v:a'/ I re.: j iL of a simple ordinance. l.le're dealing with iust a couPl:
numbers anj a <.ouple trieces of philosophy. Sometimes those simple thirr3e
are f gue=s I',J rather have sornething simple than a complex, the complex
thing: in gcver nnent don't urork too well. They get too ensnarled. Ne have
an ordinanc. on two Pages and after hearing the comments and I keep
challenging the sirnplici!y versus something that technically has n:erit.
Taking ',h: soil. He could develop an ordinance that really has technical
foundatjor, in it so ure Iiterally 9o out to every site and we literallv, u€
sa)' c!:.a)'. uha" are hle trying to Protect? t',e're trying to Protect the
..,ier-r, Lle're !ryin9 to pro*.ec! erosion. t^le could set uP standards and
:-91.!es: the que=tion is, that we and the city council has to ansuer i=.
if.]. i. a rea] s j rnple wav that might accomplish a lot of that' Could
pci:li:: i r:t-ton here or there. It might have a bad deal ouL of it bu'- lt
rn jsht Le a s.intFle approach because it ref lects back to what r"re've done riith
tr;-:r.; t: aCjin3 in our Iandscaping ordinance ' You can have sorne real
te:hnj.::.1 : L,i ng-- or ycu coulcj just simple require 3 tree-- for a Iot ar:j
th-t'-, :. si;i,:.Le spproacn to making, to getting to an encj ' Rather thair a
lot c,f c,ciir!1.c,)r n,Ljn,l;6, jun'bc that everybody gets confused wi+'h in cur
orcjir:e nc.:: :-, a arYv:e'/ I'n: struggling with some of the comments tha+- I
he:.,'il s..'!rg dc tJe rreeJ e mcre soPhisticated ord.inance or dces this
aci.c)ir F.li.j:-, i'- in ;or'cept-? The other thirrgs, arrci f 'm just going to g jve vou
ctriniir,. t.,€ have a wetland alteration pernril Process ' Do t^ie need a
vari,::',c,. D;i):, E: lrc.e? Yeah, bluff alteration. Do we need that? Agein'
that.s r _,it i_.,,:., junrL,c,. That's more stuff to cio. I've never been' I thjnk it
p"1.,.,., i: aiIc..;: flexibility. Puts the City on Lhe defelisive. Hard Lo
pr-ov{ . lj::rc to suL,starrt-iate . Harci to artalyze alI that stuff that ccr :€:-r in
h.t.. t!, ,i:'t'! h.r.,.: the resources as maybe an inCividual t'lho can hire a
.orr3jlt: rit can and ,.ra just don't have the energy to revieu: it as well as
oif... ;..,,.,;,i. . Th.- Iaei thing is penalty. Are there any penalties fo:.
CiLy Cocle alwal's has the Penaltv section and if
the Code you can go the 70 daYs.t her :' ':
Ernr.ri ng: :
olse-n:
Conrad:
OI se rr:
Conr a ci :
Lrrml;.: i
Er!-..-it:
Emn:i n::r :
1.1,, II :i,: t.;hc le
: viola"-- ior-r of
f'1i si:n,ea nor .
llisier'eanor. So
Tl-,e'l're Pr eti- Y
that appl ies
small r ight?
Ye3 -
Il,ey're really not Penalties of
$.7cO . Oo and 9O daYs.
i.r'c€ t l.eir, to face the Planning
Th.:', r.:,rul,i b: t-hreatening aIl by
f r''. i t i sn 't enf orced }'hat way
to anything in the Code so.
Basica I ly .
significance.
Comn,ission.
itself.
typi ca I I y . or maybe ne!'€ r' .
PIa nnj n3 Comnrission Meeting
August ?1 , 1991 - Page 34
Emm i ngs :
existing-Lle've dorre that - t^le're doing that for 'existing dwelrings but noL
(:.lser, : But thr permit, the reason r kind of hush on the permits is that we -still h:,r,er', 't 9(rLten all the, where r^re do allow removal of vegetation orth€ topolrraphic alLeration. tje haven't rearly fine Iined exactly whatpernrit that's going to be and whaL's required in that. Lte're talking thegrading perrTrit now but that will a]Iou, you to kind of Iook at it site bysite- r don't know that it helps Ari's position but that's where thevariance applicatiorr, he can go through that.
conrad: He could but Lhere's no, right now there's no standards for avariance-
Ofsen: It r.Jould be a Board of Adjustments.
conrad: But there aren't any standards. There aren't any guidelines for avarie:-rce- Dictrr't =orh.-.bodv sav that if we were ever goi"9 t;-;ii;; ;- '" - -variarrce, )rou shr_.,uid have sorrreLhing Lo tell you ,hen yor-rorIa grant avariance..,
Kraugs: Tirere ar€r standard conditions that apply to all variances. It,sthc ha: c=hip criter ia or r.re've added e neighborhood sl_andard wheneve' itdeviate:' . From Lrhat Jo Arrn is telling me r,m not cerLain r,lhether or notthis wr-'uio nreet the hardship criteria. on the face of it, if there,s alegitir'at€ t,u j1<Jjng pad tl-rat. doesrr,t have a problem but the one you preferdoe:, thc arrsr.re)- is br-ri.Ld u.there there's no problem.
Conrael: Right -
C)ls.e.rr: Eut t-hr ne igrhL,orhood stancjarcjs might heLp
Emn,i ng.: lt. L)ecause, uelL
E-Ilsor, : Tirs oiher housee in the same neighborhood
Ari Fuacl: There are houses thaL are down the bluff. ...possibility ofcloing it site specific. r know m the ]ast rot in nesse' iarm that there,s-a quesliorr on and there's a question on my Lot because it isn,t a sheerbluff all the r^iay down. It's just a ridge that runs up. i-tninf f,m morethe exception than the rule and I think in this, f don',i kior^r the otherneightrorhoods but xou buy a 10 acre subdivision-sized =ir'in new areas andhave a rule that says cut out the ambiguity aUout tris ii'.-.n.., dropoff orwas there some kind ambiguity...
Emmings: Hour about if we put a comma after the ordinance and say, exceptfor Ari? That's a real problem. t",e get in a lot or irorui, zoning onesite. If we do something it,s got Lo be across the board
Ari Fuad; But courd it sav existing lots have some grandfathering?
Ari Fuaci: r,JerI thi.s is an existing rot in an existing subdivision. TheIot's been there 10 years and I can see in other =rbJi"i;i;;=. . .*""fa' Xi",what the restrictions are. I bought the ]ot " y.a, ;;.-;ia;-full intent to
Planni ng Comnission lleeLing
August 27, 19cl - Page 35
build on the site. The way it sounds there is Process for a va:'iance
there's an existing pad urhic,h there unquestionably is. It's just a very
inferior pad. But I don'L have a choice. I have to buiId... If this
ordinance had existed at the time I wouldn't have bought the lot because,
like I lay...
Emmings: Risht, uJe undersland. Okay. Ladd, are you through yet?
Conradr Oh boy. So ue're still PreLty loose on that PermiL Process in
terms of our standards, Going back to vegetation alteration. TelI me the
gUidelines again. How do you say you can cut that tree down? You canit.
t^le're trying to visually keep the bluff looking the wav hre b,ant it vet on
the other hand people buy that Iot so they can build on it. so how are you
guided Jr A rrn?
olser: fi lot- of times there's a lot of underbrush there that if vou cl'ear
that, th;-i i: give= you a PretLv good view. There's also trees that have been
you know diseas.eo c,r dying and those are the ones that you 90 for first.
io those are thirrge you Iook at. There's usually some large ones like maybe
irr clunps, like orre here and one there but there's usually some spacirrg
betue,er, whr;r r: you can clear it so, you 9(, out Lo the site and it is kind of
eas), tc) cjet ermi rre.
C<.rr,racl: S'(, vou f eel prettv conf ident that you're going to be able to give
a homeowrret d view'l
o.lsen; ycah. Ir, the cases that we've wor ked with like in Deerbrook and
stuff, y.s we,ve been able Lo and a lot of times ure wil. I bring the SoiI and
t^later CcnE.ervalic,rr District peoPLe out because the bluff exists and r^re do
Iook ar- r.rhaL the undergroNth is. And if you need other vegetation there so
if we dc, let t henr take the underbrush out, then they have to do ]ike a low
growin3 slass or someLhing to replace thaL. So Lhat's one of the things
iou Ioil,-at- - r,le don't have specific standards, although in the landscaPing
or-di nenc.,' I don'l know if that HouId aPPly .
Krau:,e: I thinl'. from an
us to be able to clarifY
achieve. rs some sort of
if r^re def i ne thaL bv the
we would allow to be cut
here are some guidelines
us going out there arrd if
that.
administrative standpoint though it would help for
exact.Ly what we're working with the homeou,ner to
a view corridor is to be created - I don't know
size of the thi.ng or Lhe maximum number of trees
but we need to clarify that here's the goal and
on how to establish it so it's not coming down to
u:e're having a bad day saying no' you can't do
conrad: It wouldn't hurt to do that. I think that urould be a helpful
guideline. At least the homeowners, the residents know what we're shooting
ior rathe,r than just willy nilly as sort of a gut feel . You knour the
bottom line for- me is, on this ordinance is, I do.. like it because it
doesn,t heve. a lot of stipuLations. It seems Pretty simple- And I guess
you knor.r I,n, coming down on the simplicity and sometimes I could be urong.
but i clo like it fionr , it seems Like one number and some intents here
accomplish quite a bit. And that's mv comments.
Batzl i : Could yc)u summarize?
Conrad: I don't think I could.
Planni ng Commj:si on Heeting
August 2!, 1997 - Page 36
Erhart: I thi nk the
comme nts ?
Olsen: Paul Neuma n .
Erhart: Actua I Iy
somehow I think wethe setback t houghdiscussion toni ght
the staff fami I iar
comtTrerrts made by A9CS. ["lho was that r,]ho made the
Not the blue eyes.
clarified that, I think the reading quite a bit andought to get most of that in there. I wouldn't changeto 50 feet whi.ch leads us then to the theme of theof r,rhelher this affects your lot there. Is someone onwith this. . .
O]sen:
Erh.lr L:
O]sen:
Erhar-i,:
It-.'
t^.Jhi ch part?
I f or 9eL hJhat '/our name r.ras .
/': i. I visited it with orre of the
Oka;- - Doe= the area that he uants
en9J.neers.
to build, does that apply to
OIsen: It's i^rit hi r, the bluff impact zone, He doesthe blrrff and therr there is, he calls it a road buta grav€l or just kind of a path that's been used_
ha veit's a ]evel area above
more li ke kind of
Erhart r Wh./ can'." you build on a f lat spot in the impact zone?
OLsen: l,lhat his is, itflat thcre but iL's the
usi n9 t h;. lrouE.e t hr-.r'e .
's not reaIIy
setbacks and
spot but there's not muchwould prohibit him from
a real
aII of
flat
that
Erhart : 7f he hacl s big enoughordin.:nce alIor.: you to build?spot, flat on the b'luff , does this
Of serr: The defjnjtion allows you, ifmore, with slope less than 182, that'sthink his applies. It,s not 50 feet.
you have a distance of 50 feetnot part of the bluff. I don
or't
Erhart: Oo you agree with that?
Ari Fuad: f guess I didn't understand.
Olsen: The definition of bluff, if you havefoot disLance, that's technoLogy not withj.n
Ar i FuaC: yeah , I thi nk I ,ve got that . Oh,
The re 's e crown.
Olserr: Th.rt 's somethi ng Lle can Iook at -
Ari Fu:d: It's a cror^ln. It's not a ridge,
Less than 182!he bl uff .
slope for 50
it's 50 feet under 18e;?
it's a crown.
Planni ng Commiseion MeeL i ng
Au€ruat ?i, 7oi1 - tra'Je 37
Erhart: Yeah, f mean that's the thing
draw in the picture but there is a Iot
]itt]e mourrds that come back up. I'm
on the bluff even with this ordinance
bluff is iL's not Iike they
spots and in fact there's
that there's a ]ot of spots
could build on.
with the
of f lat
assumi n9
that you
O]sen: Oh sure but iL's the setbacks.
Ari Fuad: This ridge or Nhatever which is actuallv
feet across. Maybe more. It's just if you think of
around it...you're turning a 1OO foot circle into a
t.he set L)a c ks .
a croh,n is maybe
bluff all the way
40 foot circle.
100
It'S
Erhart: 1oo feet's not very much area to build on.
Ari Fuaci: Tc, build a house, lot t^ridths are 80 feet wide' Then thev have
10 f oc,t s.€-r-bac.[i.s which give you 60 feet which is p]entv of room for a
hou6e. Houses are only 40 feet deeP so a house fits on a Pad roughly 60 x
40. 'Ihit's a fairlv large house. That's 2'4OO square feet.
Erhart:
Ari Fr:;d
Erh€ri:
Are you going to have anv kind of a yard or driveulay?
got 1OO
otherAre Lher e houses that are there existing that are similiar?
You 've feet square.
one that kind of goes down a couple feet to the
looked but there's also septic sites on each lot.
there's a lot of impact so the setbacks is wha!'s
Olsen; I +- hi n[: there's
west. f haven't rea I lY
These ere unseurered so
hurtir,g h.im.
Ari Fuad: 9ee Lhis ridge is 5oO feet long and so
room Lar-er:, Il)'to Pu*. in sePtic systems and welIs
30 foot setback nrakes, it could Potertliallv. mal'e
the app:-cpr iaLe size,j house on it .
it's not, there's lols of
and yard. It's iusL the
the site too narrow to Put
up and the n
out and down.
don't know if
Erhart: Thie house, does
live out t hel e?
it sit out in the view of the other PeoPle that
Ari Fuad: There's one house.
Erhart: I wonder what the other two houses do?
olsen: There's a row of homes. I couldn't tell you'
Erhart: No but I mean vou're talking about having the homes
har,ri ng one ciowrr and out further or he had one or two or three
Olsen: Orrt ar,d down further? He'd be the furthest down ' I
We C a rr : i-,i",] >'C)u .
Erhart: That's okav. Do vou think if the house Has there' is that
ob jectionab.Le? You're one of the exisLing homeowners-
olsen: If the house were to be ]ocated there?
Pl a n r,j. r,;i Conni:;sion Meeting
Augu..: :1 , 1cJ97 - Page 38
Emmi rrgs :
Ari Fuad;
Ver ne Sever son: t^re 're ta I ki ng
bui Id a wor kslrop c.rn my property
I should har,,e brought a map.
Because he's got to get a building permit.
That 's a good point.
about individual rights tonight. Ibut with this ordinance I can't do
Han! t o
that .
Ernrin3:: f "r
goinJ to cut out the talking here.Sonr.booy a spe.-if jc question go ahead but we canIoosc. tJ,j'r. going to be here until midnight.
If you
't have.
want to askft 's getLi ng! too
Erh:rr-: H..v€ you taJ. led about performance standards asgencr; I crcjirrance?opposed to a
KraLrs,s: t^re reall), harren't and r think it's been for a number of reasons.There's no g1io.{ model for us to work off of that's based on performance-Solely performance approach. t^re're noL dealing with comnrercial/industrialdevelopers hc-re urho can bring in consultants at !E12O.OO an hour to give uswhat we neecJ t r.r react to to effectil,ely dear with specific standards. youalE..r becornc. fcir L>, erratic ancl inconsistent !,hich is kind of a basic thingto avoitl in enforcir,g ordirrarrces.
Erhart: t^Jha+.'s in here Lo prevent somebody from going in and doing a lotof L,r-ri I cc,;i r,g ancj s'tuf f over Lhe edge of the bluf ie
Olsen: They'<l ha'zr. to have a permit.
Krauss: They're L,e irr violation of the ordinance.
Erhart; ff you look at that site and you basically Iay out where they canmove dirt. Pretty much people do follow that.
Olsen: The grading permit?
Erhart: Yealr . r guess what r was trying to get to there was, you know wepicked some numbers and things. I,m not sure, I know where u,e got thenumbers. ue got the numbers from the state program that,s putting this outbut where I uas going uJas I thought maybe this would be an exampl! to kindof test c)ur numbers. r guess if r had the opportunity to 90 out and lookaL tlr;i Ict r think would be real useful . on the other hand r really thinkit's' ., n.edr'd, r think we def initeJ.y need protection and if you can't getit through perfornrance standards, then this is our only choice, Againr r"rori I d hatre li ked to have seen that lot. r don't know if it's worthwaiting. I qion't know if that's the only reason uhy you'd want to tableit. I think h,e carr get the wording in without tabling it.
Ari Fuail : l+- r.r:.-.rl C b€ sut,s.tarrtial ly belour them sc, il wouldn't really btock -their vi,:i, ar:.j th.-.i r Lrees, there'd actually be trees between, that wor,rld
grc)r.r up a;Lu;.j..ly orr m)' pt'oF€,rt), that would basicaLly bIock,
Erhart: uh>' wouldn't you jusL sLart building the house righL now? Before -the ordi rrance ,
PIa nni ng Com:nis=iorr Meeting
August ?1, 1991 - Page 39
Emming:: oka>. Is that it? I've go! a couP]e of sPecific
I thinl" Latld's comments about this being a simple ordinance 'are gr-.iocl corrm.rits and I thi nk thaL's a good hJay to aPProach
I think it does a good job of Protecting the people who are
with homes. How it affects him I don't know but I think if
tablins it, we might use his ProPerty as a test case to see
and maybe ure can get the City Engineer between nou and then
Iook at it. or if he alreadY has.
things.I thi nk thosethis situation.
aLready t her- e
r^re wi nd up
how it affectsto go out and
ol sen: Fie has .
Emming=: Alr-ight. or maybe you could tell us how we get there to ]ook at
it or something so ure could see. But on the other hand, I don't think how
it affects crr€ persc,n out of everybody on the bluff makes a difference to
thr, c:.di n::nce buL still I think it's a useful test case. The comments that
pecpJ'c L,uv' these lots for the spec'ific Purpose of having the view' You'know ther,:,s rcstrictions on every kind of ]ot that you buy. That's nol a
reaeorL t., h.\,€- restr jctic,ns on the lot.. I live on Lake Minneurashta.
Bough: 5n emtrt), lot and had aII kinds of restrictions. I couldn't build
r"ritl,in :: f€.et of the lake, Maybe I could have said, gee if I'm going to
liva cr, the l.:le r want a house right down there so I can slep off mv cjeck
ri3i,t jr-il-o nr.), L.oat and gc but I can't do that. so again lhat argumerrt
do;ln't- persu:r.:'c' nr: verv ntuch. But on the other hand, I think we've got to
hat,e, jf th<. vjeN is the major thirrg that PeoP.Ie are interested irr' we've
got to lra,.e. a r.:sy to accommodaLe that. It's only fair and I think ue do
if,.t t hrc,ur9l, tirr further removal or a.Ileration of vegetation. Arrd in most
cas€3 tl-r.ri .:,,;31-rL to be good enough I think. In some cases it might not be.
In sonie :pecifjc c:ases it might not be. And that's where you get dot,,n to
th.:, cle =irc of t-hese peop.Ie I think to have a site specific PIan becauee
you,\/e got the gencral regulation but you can get the staff to 9o out and
iook :,t > c'-:r' in.:Ji','id.,ul piece and develoP a Plan along with the citv to
accomnr(,cj;Jtc the desire to have a good view. I think maybe that's the best
of all pc,::it le- world:. In the statement of intent section, in the third
lin. f rc,rr- the L,t,ttonr. f t says. alteratiorr. The sentence starts out, to
preserve thr cheracter of the bluff impact zone within the City, alteration
io the L,luf f impact zone and I wonder if it should sav, rather than
alteration to the zone. It should say alteration Lo the land or'vegetation
Nithin the L,Iuff impact zone- That was one thought I had. on structure
setbacks number 2. It talks about the setback from the top of the bluff is
5 feet on parcels on which a building has already been constructed. I
don't knout r,lhy it's 5 feet -
Olsen: That's what we were
withirr the 30 foot setback,
accommodate homes that are a]readv
uanted to make an addition.
their 'home within that area.
have planned Lheir house for iL
we believe that xe, the die is
be. They've already got some
trying to
that they
Emn-in3r::
than 30?
Kreiuss: Because- we already let them build
They r,ra;' lravc not added a deck. They may
or planrre d thei)' house for an addition and
cast. The home is already where it should
vested r i ohts.
[,.i]-,y wou]ci we let them build cl'oser than they are if they're less
Planning Commiesion Meeting
Augus,t 21 , 19ai - Page 40
Emn.i rr;:,: To me I y.rr,ulcJ sa)' there should be 5 feet or the exisLing setback, -which is mcle- That would be my approach to that situation. I think it,sfine that uJc approve a]l of the houses that exist. I don't think there.sany reascn to aIlow them to build closer just because they're alreadythere- Thc. oLher thing, somehow in there we ought to make it clear thatthat's for the existing building and not any new buildings. So that,ssomething that should be added in about that r think. Then the only otherthing, under the official map section, 1406 it says, the Arcticle appliesc,nlv t() thc bluff impact zone located on the official bluff impact zon€ mapdated June 7,7991. r just think after that iL should say, as amended fromtime to tir:e. rt dc:es say in the next sentence that it can be amended butit still savs that it onLv appLies to what's on the map so that could be a -prob.lem. Ancj f guess I agree with the people who,ve tal ked about tab)ingthis on,.' s. !.J e can lrar,,e another look at alr of these. The comments th6i-ha'.,c I r :,r' r, i,,ir L,>' t hese other bodies and arso maybe get a chance to look at -this pr'otrr-.it-; if hc'l.L let us go out and walk around.
Ar i f u. :'
B;-t:1i i
either'.
arcr,'t-
'cr L, r- gIad to meet you out there-
S.--.,ri,c c.f t l-,:_ comments made b.y these people I don't think, makeI {l: r,'t warrt us to just add the commenLs because sc}me of therrr
Se n:r€
Erhart: \'e.-i-, riSht.
Ol:.c;r: You'r,.,e got to pick out which ones you think are righ!.
B.:LzIi: l-ih;. fcl e,:amplr:. when the comment,,
chal'ar.t er i:.tic.s is incorr-ec,t given how ue,reThat sl,or.rl,dn': bc added. Things that don,t
hre Lr.rr+- tc, gcr through them now or if ule just
them .-:n j La!-r-' 3 look at Lhem.
one or more of the follor^rinsdefining r.rhat the bluff is.
make sense arrd I don't knor.r ifwant to let Jo Anrr go thr.ough
get the tour.
Emn,i:-'9:.: I xr,ulcl suggest ule take another run at this thing.
Erh.rrt: I r,roul.d Iikc to see us set up a time. I,d Iike toGo out and look 6t that.
Olsen: Ol,a:,. Some afternoon? Morning? Night?
Emming:=: If it's a weekend it could be an afternoon.
Erhart. : Dr 6: OO i n the evening.
Olsen: Oka;" .
Emmi ng: Yeah, somethi ngIi kc- table it.like that. Is there a motion to do somer-hing here
O.lserr : l''1:. i-.c r,te: can trytabi'.i :l:.: r i.rht ?
Emnri ngr:: \'ea h
to get Orlin Schafer here. The other one was
0lsen: Sc we'lL try
Emn,i ng=: f: *.here a
Plannirr'3 Commissi on l''leeting
Augu5t 2i, 799f - Fage 41
OIsen: That's right
of people rho ca]Ied.
Batzli: f move lhat the Planning Commission table
allor^r staff time to review the amendmenls ProPosed
entitjee and s.o that we can go out and take a Peak
to gei Orlin here for boLh of them.
tax question on this one?
Nobody brought it up. Never mind- There werc a lot
this matter in order to
by the var ious other
a! some of these sites.
your comme nt s
r evi er,r thi. s
wiII be looking
Emmings: I'II second it. Is there any discussion?
Batzli moved, Emmings seconded to table Zoning ordinance Amendment to
ireate a bluif Iine preservation section to the City Code for further
review. All voted in favor and the motion carried-
Emning=: Pc.oplr' whc made' comments tonight should know that
set t)'F,eC up and wi I l be Part of the Packet ue have when t're
next time. NoL to discourage you from coming again but ue
at th€m e.Eairr.
( Joan f.,itrr€ ns left the meeting at this Point and uJas not PreseBt in the
voles on a rry f r.rr ther items . )
Na me ESS
Oon F . H,: i l.: 10 ,OOO Great Plains BIvd '
Mark l-ialla 77o creek{ood
Kathy Aan€nBon pl-esented the staff rePort on this item- chairman Emmings
called the public hearing to order.
Emming€: And then ule'II send it to all the Power companies that have
transmissic,n lines in this city. Put them on notice so they've got no
excu-"?.
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing xas closed'
Erhart: First Page, Pag.e 2. I would very much Iike to see lhe City
Attorney, someone work on limiting the power comPanies ability to clear cut
and spray. t^lhat's the nex! steP on Lhat?
Aanenson;Youwou]d]ikehimtodirec!himtocomebackuithsomethingthet r-rou I d prchibit that?
Erhart: Ye:ih, t.hat's what I'd Iike.
PUBLIC HEARING:
Zo,t[Ne excr SrrEbrvtsroN oRorNeNcE aHfNOrfHr lO ameNo SgctlONS neeenOrNe
LANDSCAPING AND TREE PRESERVATION REOUIREHENTS.
Publ ic Present:
CITY OF
TH[NHISSTN
Pc DATE.: 9/4/91
cc DATE: 9/23/9t
CASE *: 91-4 PUD
By: Aanenson/Krauss/v
STAFF REPORT
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Concept Approval for Rezoning of Property from A-2,
Agricultural Estate to PUD, Planned unit DeveloPment-
Industrial for the chanhassen Business Center
Located south of the Chicago, Milwaukee, st. PauI and
Pacific Railroad and rrest of Audubon Road
PROPOSAL:
I.OCATION 3
APPLICANT:Ryan construction ConpanY
7oo International Center
900 Second Avenue South
uinneapol is , l,!N 55402
r
PRESENT ZONING:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ALTACENT ZONING AND
IAND USE:
WATER AND SEWER:
PHYSICAL CHARACTER. :
2OOO I,AND USE PLAN:
A-2, Agricultural Estate
93.7 acres
?/V/1r ---
N - A-2, vacants - A-2, large Iot residential
E - PUD-R, Lake Susan Hills 3rd Addition
w - A-2 & IoPt Tinberro6d Estates,/vacant
water is availabLe for entire site, sewer is
available for Phase I. A feasibility study
nay need to be compfeted before aPproval of
Phases II and III.
The site is currently being fanoed and
contains a soybean fie1d. There is a class B
wetland on the site protected by the City and
Army corps of Engineers. Bluff Creek runs
through the western portion of the property.
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Ryan construction
septenber 4, 1991
Page 2
PROPOSAL,/ST'MMARY
The applicant, Ryan construction conpany, is proposing to develop
a 12 lot Industrial Park on 94 acres of property. The proposal
staff is reviewing consists concePt approval for rezoning from A-2
to PUD. Ryan construction will be the owner and developer of the
Industrial Park/Business center. This property is located south of
Highway 5 and adjacent to Audubon Road. The site is triangular in
shipe; bounded on the north by the chicago, Milwaukee, St. Pau1,
Paclfic Railroad, on the east by Audubon Road, on the south by a
farn that is currently zoned A-2 but is gnrided for Low Density
Residentiaf uses. to the east of Audubon Road is Lake susan Hills
3rd Addition Subdivision zoned PUD-R, to the west Tinbentood
Estates Subdivision and to the north so the subj ect site the
property is zoned of this A-2. This area is inside the MUSA line
iecLntly expanded by the Iiletropolitan council.
The proposed concept plan would result in the ultimate developnent
ot ippioxinately loo,ooo square feet of office and industrial
space.- rt is ploposed that this be developed in phases over a
plriod of severil years and that some of the internal irnprovernents
will also accordingly phased. Access will be provided by an
internal public cul-de-sac that would align with the future
connection of Lake Drive to the east. Due to site topography and
surrounding land uses, it is not feasible to construct a loop
street sys€ern or to connect this street farther to the west which
would othemise be rnore desirable. one site located near the
Audubon Road bridge over the railroad tracks, is proposed for
direct access to Audubon Road due to its remote location fron the
internal street systen. staff believes that this uray be acceptable
but is looking at this matter in greater detail . Audubon Road will
provide the sole access to the proPerty. This street was upgraded
Ly the City in 1990 in the extr ectation that traffic volumes would
bl increased in the near future. staff will be working with the
applicant to ensure that any necessary improvements to Audubon
Rold, including the provision of turn lanes, will be constructed
concurrent vith site developnent.
At the present tine, it is not possible to know who the ultinate
tenants of this park will be, with one significant exception. The
U. s. weather Service has announced its plans to relocate fron the
Minneapolis/ st-. Paul International AirPort to Chanhassen by
tgg3/t994. They have selected a site in the southeast corner of
the property along Audubon Road as their preferred location and
have been working with staff and the developer to prepare
appropriate pIans. This use is sonewhat unique in that it would
rLsutt in placenent of a relativety small building and associated
radar equipnent on a very large Iot. Thus, most of the proPosed
12.5 acre site would remaj.n undisturbed green space. we believethat this is an ideal use of this corner of the site since this is
Ryan Construction
Septenber 4, l99l
Page 3
where the industrial park will have itsresidential uses located east of Audubonsite.
prinary interface with
Road and south of the
staff believes the concept plan to be quite nel1 desigmed. TheDost sensitive enviro,nmental area, located along Bluff C-reek, willbe preserved and staff is working with the appficant to protect arecreational corridor _through thL area. we -f,ave rocate& a largeunderpass under the rairroad tracks west of Bluff creek that ve arehoping to utilize to faciritate connection of the recreaiionartrail corridor so that -i.t r.r tinately can be constructea-ul-io trreHighway 5 area, as outlined in the cornprehensive p1an. irt it. ,"believe the design is a sensitive onej there are several i="o..that renain to be worked out. The fiist concerns " l."lo."i t"construct a storn water basin in the Bluff creek F100at flal-; Thiseffort will need to be coordinated with other invo:,vea-a-fencies toensure that this design is both a110!rab1e and conpatirrt. ltarthas informed the developer that we wirr require d;i-lhi;- pond bedesigned to a standard that wirr provide- not oniy st-o-rf -rater
ponding but also nutrient renoval . The second natter concerns acrass B wetland area rocated near the raitroaa tia&s -near tn"center of the site. This wetland is virtualJ.y indistin.ruis-fraUf efron the rest of the farn field but it exists ";";-il":i;3s-in tneNational I{ettands rnventory. staff wourd propose "".il"t-wi[r, tir.applicant to relocate thiJ wetrand to a nore -appropriat6 tocationsince we question that it has any real or potentiir varue -in itscurrent location. staff has also infornea iuat appric-ni-ttrat anEnvironmental Assessurent ltorksheet must ue suriittea wiirr tneformaL plan subnittals so that these and other issues .i. r"ef fectively evaluated.
The provision of utirities to this site requires some fairlycornplex alternatives to be evaluated. es cur'rently liolosea, aportion of this site would be served uy existinj'"[iiiil" i"Audubon Road on a remporary basis. rne ivaira*li1v-"t "li.r r.not a particular concern, rather it is the sewer -servi"" trr.tcauses sone difficulty. Ultirnately, pLans call for provlsion of anew city interceptor running .ou,&Leire in ttre "i"f"liy "i BruffCreek do.lrn to Lyman- Boulevaid, which will then flow iion-a fiftstation back up- to the Jfk" llrl fnte.rceptor. Iong term cily pranscall-for most, if not all, of this site'to be drai;intl'io-tir",,"r0facility. As a condition-of concept_ approvar., ttre apdr icint srrourabe required to petition for a feisiuiiity sirray so-'trrit wort naypT?:e.ed inmediatery on rhe design and tirianci"; ";.";;;;"iI-= tt"twirr ,,e required for these very iigniticant inpio".r."i= tiiif willbe a benefit to nuch of the newiy i-ncorporated !!usA area. rhe firnof Bonestroo, Rosene and Anderlik, rnc'. ia .1;;.ey "-"-al, ioit"""twith.the city to deverop ana outtine-'"i to", ttrese'serviceJ-nay reprovided.
Ryan construction
septerDer 4, 1991
Page 4
Staff believes that the utilization of the PUD ordinance to develop
this property is an ideal use for this type of project. It allows
both the city and the developer to Prepare IreII coordinated,
comprehensive and sensitive plans for a very lar_ge piece of ground
that will ensure that a high guality Proj ect will result- It is
particularly effective for use in instances such as this vhere
levetopnent is tikely to proceed' over a period of. tine. ItIe PUD
ordinance will Provide a franework against which all - future
developnents on this property will be gauged. This will elininate
nost, if not all, the prbblens that could occur if this Eite were
sinpiy rezoned to IoP and subdivided and developed in the usual
ranirei. we also believe that the PUD documentation is well
designed. Keeping in nind what we have before is a concept
subrnittal, we believe that nost of the developnent issues have been
dealt with in at least a prelininary fornat and can easily be
refined further as reguired when fornal application requests are
nade.
staff reconnends that the PUD concept review be approved subj ect to
appropriate conditions.
CONCEPTUAI, SITE PI.IN IPPROVAIJ
General site Plan /Architecture
The site is currently used agriculturally, soybean fields cover
urost of the site. The fanued area consists of 57.6 acres of the
93.7 developable area. The 12 lots proposed are located in this
farned area. There are two lots being created rrhere development
will not ocsur i outlot A, which will be approxinately 14.3 acres
and outlot B which will be approxinately 7.8 acres. A storn rrater
retention pond is being proposed on a portion of outlot A. The
balance of the parcel wiII be used to Protect Bluff Creek,
associated flood plain and the only significant stand of trees
found on the site. outlot B, located farther to the west, is
physically separated fron the nain portion of the site by outlot A-
It-is not-feaiible to access this parcel fron Audubon Road without
causing significant environrnental damage. There are no plans to
deve].op ou€Iot B at this tiDe. rt is envisioned that this wouLd be
cornbined with other parcels gruided for industrial use and accessed
fron Ga1pin Boulevard. According to the National wetland Inventory
Map, there is a narginal netLand on this site that is located
approxiuately uhere Iot 6 is proPosed. Staff is coordinating any
nLLessary review with the Arny corps of Engineers. staff will also
require L wetland Alteration Penoit be processed for this site.
Staff has requested that an Environmental Assessnent vlorksheet be
done for this site.
Ryan Construction
Septenber 4, 1991
Page 5
since the site is essentially a large bowl dropping dorrn to theBluff Creek corridor to the west, access is proposld to be providedby a long cul-de-sac extension froD Audubon Road. Staff sould havenornally preferred to provide a loop street connection but this isnot possible for this site without iupacting environmental featuresor surrounding residential neighborhooda. Eleven of the 12proposed developnent sites are clustered along the proposed cul-de_sac or off a secondary cul-de-sac running north fron the main road.We caution the planning Conmission that, for the nost part,specific details concerning the exact layout of lots and ofbt:r-lldlnqg are highly theoretical at this pa'rticufar iir". - rn"..wilr be developed in nore detail as the p.6i""t p."g.""-="=. rot 1is Located in the northeast corner o-t ine ir"f".iy. -- ft isdifficult to access Lot 1 internalry due to the iay'out-'oi the siteand the elevation of rot 1. rnteinal access is .'ot irnpossirre;however, access onto Audubon Road nay be acceptable. This natteris being pursued further by staff.
rl !1" narrative prepared by the appricant and in discussions vithstaff, general concepts of how thii-site is to be pran"ea rrive beendevelope.d-.- The applicantrs narrative is a good startini loint uutstaff will work to refine these standar6s turthei iJi -rorr.r
adoption. -ror exanple, staff will be looking roi iequlre-n"nts thattruck roading areas be concealed fron ort iite "i"''"= uv -r"irai"g
massing or screening. we rrould also ask for additionar tefinition!,lth regard to building nateriaLs. we rearize that this is anindustrial park and that tip-up panels and the rirs ire g"i"g t" r"utilized; .however, we want -to ensure that the arclrriletturalstandards that are enployed maintain the high quality -ir.q" t}r.tthe citv has tried to deve10p. rhe appricani rr'i"-infi"itEi trrutthe- high quality, higher profire buildiinls are to be located on thehigh ground arong Audubon Road. these bulldings aie iii.iv t" rr"""a higher percentage of office uses. we wiir iir.rv-ilatri-ng tneappricant to crarify this natter further and approve- puo aotuments.srEes tocated further to the lrest are }ikely to have a higherpercentage of warehouse, nanufacturing or dist:ributi;" =pi.".
Lot 12, in the southeast _corner of the property, is being reservedfor the u. s. weather service. As €rre - praininl -c-o-mn-is-s-ion isarrare, the U. S. Weather Service has announced that they areplanning to rer.ocate the rrrin cities weattrei r."irllv oiii' tt i=site by 1993 of 1994. we believe that this i= "n "p-t-i.laiillationI:L-t|:_f_Tit1rl. since there hrourd only Ue a rs,doo-=q"ir" r""tDulrdr'ng on a 12t acre site. uuch of the site would be -per,anent
green space which would facilitate the bufferine oii}rE-iiaiStri.rpark fron adjoining residentiar areas due to thL location oi ttr:.=Iot.
No spec_ific site plan approvar.s are being considered at this tine.As development proceeds, each development- proposat wirr bs ieviewea
Ryan Construction
Septenber 4, L99L
Page 5
under the cityts site PIan review standards to ensure consistency
with good planninq Practices and PUD requirements -
Street /Access
The site is being accessed off of Audubon Road. Audubon Road was
upgraded in 1990 and is designed to accornrnodate higher.traffic
v'oiurne=. Additionat inprovernents, Dost Iikely incorporating turn
Ianes, will be required to suPport this project.
Access to the 11 lots will be fron the extension of Lake Drive
west. This street will be a long cul-de-sac, approxinately 1700
feet. Lots 2, 3 and 4 siI1 access off an additional cul-de-sac
fron Lake Drive West. Lot 1 is proposed to be served by an
inaiviauaf driveway to Audubon Road due to grades and its remote
location. The Engineering Departnent has stated that because
Audubon Road is a ntjor traffic collector, according to the Eastern
carver County TranJportation study, they would prefer that all
access driveways should be fron interior streets to reduce access
points on Aud-ubon Road. A detailed traffic study should be
irepared t.; determine rrhat types of turn Lanes wi1l. be required to
iran&fe anticipated traffic volunes generated by this proPosal'
Landscapinq/Tree Preservation
The western portion of the site contains sone unigue .vegetativefeatures. ThLse features include Bluff creek Flood Plain, ranging
in size fron 150 to 11oo feet in width and a large stand of mature
trees approxinately 5 acres in size- Paqre 5 of the site plan shows
the pro-p-osed treatment of these features and landscaping PIan'
rne ippiicants are planning to leave the existing nature stand of
ii"".'rni.r, includebak, ash, basswood and ironwood ranging in size
from ner growth to 30rt caliper. As currently planned,- the city
woutd tak6 title to outlot I and pernanently protect this area'
Ihe applicants are also proposing to.alter the ftood Plain of. BLuff
Creeti io build a storn water re{ention pond. No development will
occur on outlot A and B (except for the retention Pond). According
to the site plan, all open sPace, non-parking lot surfaces-shaIl be
landscaped, - rockscaped or coved with plantings and/9-1 Ialrn
nateriais. The southern and eastern proPerty lines wi}l need
additional landscaping to provide an appropriate bu{fer .frorn the
existing residential -properties. Staff wiII reguire that all
landscafe buffering be instaLled in the first phase of development '
Grad inq/Dra inaqe
The conceptual site plan proposes to grade the entire site
exclusive of outlot A-which- contains Bluff creek. The grading
appears to uraintain the existing drainage pattern w-hich- is westerly
tilaras Bluff creek watershed. As Part of this devel'opnent, the
Ryan Construction
Septenber 4, 1991,
Page 7
util ties
applicants propose to construct a retention pond. Because theretention pond is proposed on the flood plain, it toses valuablestorage area and will require nitigation. The applicant needsapproval of the DNR, Watershed District and fedeial EEergencyuanagement Agency (FEMA). Rerocation outside of the flood plain i31ike1y to be required.
The ston' water pran proposes conweying storm water runoff througha series of storn sewe-r pi-pes wtrich end up dischargi"q i"it t}r"retention pond. Each rot is being provide-a witrr sl6rn- ="r"" ro.future extension to the proposed -i;dividuar aeveiopnenti ThiswiLr elininate the need.to-iequire. inaiviauir r"t""l-i"" ptnds oneach site which leads to lesl naintenance. staff is ioing torequire. that the pond be built to xNURp, stanaaias l" "r-"-*i"ir.nutrient rernoval - A fornal erosi.on contror pran wirr "i.o r"required to protect uater resources.
An. -exiq-ting class B uetr.and is located on the site near therailroad tracks. rt is virtuarry non-existent a-nJ rr"J- b""r,cultivated for an extended period of tine. staff does not obj ectto_ the proposal to fill it uut nitigation, i; th; iora-'or arelocated wetland, is going to be. requiled. The U. S. arny Corp=of Engineers is currently avaluating itris wetland.
ll:I+milary util_ity plans appear to be acceptable but this issue isr'rKery Eo be a fairly conplex one that witr require considerableeffort to resolve. plans show the utilization o'ipulri"'wi[Ir
"nasewer and, for the nost part, illustrations of honr these servicesqrould_ hl provided on the site are reasonable. es would beexpected, detailed drawings and car.culations wiir re requireJ uittrthe fornral subnittal.
The provision of city water into the site is not particularlydifficult and staff ag-rees with the prolosar to loop ,.i""-.".rric"=internally to uaintain pressure and eiergency f1ors. The biggerproblen area concerns sanitary sewer. On a tenporary basis, planscall. for the tapping into se-rvices on existin! ri"'.= -r-".-Jted inAudubon Road. rt appears as though ttrese iines -r"v'i.1-""-,'ii- r"..tfor. the tine being, so.ne excess- capacity. fhis' condition wiIIcontinue to persist until other parc;ls ln tne area are developed.Thus, on a prelininary- basis, it appears to be reasonable thattemporary service couid be proviaed'foi sone of the lots. ?heultinate deterrnination _as to -whether
"i ""t this is feasible or notwill; however, be contingent ,.,p"" -r1.r"-i' reasiliritv -.-t-"al1J.
The Larger issue with s_anitary sewer relates to how the city planson providing services to a rirge p.ri oi the newry
" "q, t."atl.rill'iarea hrhich is l0cated in what is Lalred-the slufi' c""Ei-oi"ir,.g.
Ryan construction
September 4, l99L
Page I
Area. originally, when the 1980 city comprehensive PIan itas
approved, this area was to be served by the Bluff creek IntercePtor
which would have been elther a regional facility or one constructed
between the city of Eden Prairie and chanhassen. over the yearsi
however, the possibility of this line being built has become
virtualiy noneiistent, thus, the city of Chanhassen must work with
Uetropol-itan Vlaste Control Cornrnission to find viable alternatives.
Under the recently approved Comprehensive Plan, the uwcc approved
the pracenent of a rift station in the vicinity of Lynan Bou-levard
inti which this entire area could drain by gravity and then
utilizing forcernains to punp the se-trage back up the hiII -into the
f,"X" arrri IntercePtor. -At this tine, a consuLtant working for
Bonestroo, Rosene and Andertik, the cityrs engineering consultant
on this rnatter, is exploring appropriate nethods of how to serve
this area. we expect to have their coropleted rePort shortly'
The most, if not all of the chanhassen Business center site along
with virtually a11 the other land located in the I,[USA area south of
Hwy. 5 would probably be require-d to drain into this neu system'
As such, they will need to ParticiPate in the construction of these
facilities a-nd would be expLcted to assume responsibility of paying
for their fair share of the irnprovements. Ryan construction and
staff have been discussing this natter actively for several nonths
and this is reflectetl in the current concept plan subnittal. As a
condition of concept approvaL, Ryan should be required.to petition
the city to do a forrnal- feasibility study for this project. as well
as for internal utitities and streets. If the construction tine
table for this project is to be roaintained, it is iroperative that
the feasibility- study be cornpleted as quickly as possible.
Park and Recreation
The applicants have developed a loop trail systen around the entire
site. The applicants are proposing to dedicate Outlot A and the
trail systen-in lieu of park dedication fees. The applicants are
working- with the Park and Recreation Cornrnission on this natter'
Initiai indications are that the Park and Recreation Commission nay
not accept the land in lieu of cash since most of this area is off
Iinits t-o developnent in any event. They are scheduled to review
the proposal in septenber.
REZONING
The appticant is requesting to rezone approxinately 94 acres from
A-2 -airicultural nstate District to PUD-OI, Planned. unit
DeveJ.olirnent office Industrial . The following review . constitutes
our eviluation of the PUD request. The review criteria are taken
fron the intent section of the PUD ordinance.
Ryan Construction
SepteDber 4, L99I
Page 9
Justification for Rezonin<r to pUD
Section 20-501. Intent
Planned unit developnent deveropments offer enhanced frexibility todevelop a site through the relaxation of most normal zoiingdistrict standards. TLe use of the puD zoning also alr,ows for agreater variety of uses, internal transfer of deisity, constructionphasing and-a potential for rower developnent costi.' rn eichangefor this enhanced frexibility, the city has the "*p""t"tio' tt.tthe deveropnent. plan wirr result in a signif icantly 'rrigh"iq".riiv
and nore sensitive proposal than wourd hive been tire cise witrr tu.other, rnore standard zoning districts. It will Ue tfre-ippii""rrt, "responsibility to denonstrlte that the cityrs "*p."iiti5i]-ire torealized as evaluated against the followin! critlrii;----'- -
Planned unit devel.opments are to encourage the following:
1' Preservation of desirabre site characteristics and open spaceand protection of sensitive environmentar reaiuies, -i""r"iri"g
steep slopes, nature trees, creeks, uetlands, Iakes'and scenicV]'elIS .
FINDING: In this.proposed developnent the applicant intendsto save the existing stand of natirre trees artn!-gi;ir-are.x,located on outlot A. The- conprehensive ni.;-;;; UJ" u"pidentifies the creek corridor a-s park/Open Space.
2. More efficient and effective use of land, open space andpublic facilities t-h1oug-h nixing of land ,r="= "nt i.r-JrUfy .r,adevelopnent of land in larger 1iarce1s.
FINDING: The sub.j-ect property is triangular in shape, boundedby the creek, railroad tiacki and Audufon noaa. ff,e'stripe orthe. propertv prohibits design frexibility Lrri['"n.- J""ii'iriiy-l!h . flat square piece oi. prop".ty. .ihe advantaje-in tfr"PUD proposal is.that the city is gaining a totallf plannedconcept. If this.were to develop - separltely as i-naiviauarparcers, nany of these design c6nsidirationt w"uii-iot r.included. These design elefrents include "" "pli""ea-,ig'package, uniforn :l:..! and parking. Iot 1ightinf,- ""riltiuf.or cohesive architecture lnd riiraing -n"teiiaisl--' Th"coordination of sir-e^ developnent "iii- "G;-iil;;"" theefficiency and cost effectiveniss oi pu ic irp."""r-"rrll. ForexSnple, the project is large enoulh to rreif-riciiil.t" "solution to- providing sewer -service to the ire, r.rusa- ar"a.Also, the devel.op.rnent-of a^^single, courprehensive drainagesystem will naxinize the effectiveness of nutrient removarefforts while reducing the cityrs long tern naintenance "o.t".
Ryan construction
septenber 4, L99L
Page 10
3. High guality design and design conpatibility wi.th surrounding
Iaid uses,- inctuaing both existing and planned. Site
planning, landscaping and building architecture should reflect
higtrer -quality design than is found elsewhere in the
conmunity.
SINDING! The applicants are proPosing to subnit individual
building plans -ior each devalopnent lot. The city will
utilize-itL nornal site plan revier procedure for each' The
approved PuD docunents will establish fitm. guidelin-es to
e-niure that the site is develoPed in a consistent and uell
planned manner. Higher quatity developnent will result'
4. Sensitive developnent in transitionaL areas located between
different land us-es and along sigmificant corridors within the
city will be encouraged.
TINDING: This site is bounded on the east by Audubon Road'
The conprehensive Land use !'[ap calls for a 50 foot buffer yard
for additional buffering for the subdivision to the east. In
addition, the conprehensive Plan calls for a 100 foot buffer
yard along the louthern proPerty line. This area will'eventuatlli be developed wiah single fanily hones consistent
with the conPrehensive Plan. concept . plans call for
establishing ai acceptable landscape buffer in the appropriate
areas. site topography and tree cover will also place much of
the site beyond €he view of adjacent residential areas' In
addition, tlie location of the U. s. Weather Service site along
Audubon ioad rill inprove buffering. uost of this site wiII
remain pernanent open sPace.
5. Developnent which is consistent with the conprehensive Plan'
FITIDING: The Comprehensive Land Use t'!aP identifies the
subject area as the potential land use of office/Industrial .
The Land Use Map also identifies a Park/oPen space corridor,
3Oo to 4oo hundied feet in width, running the entire length of
the property. This area is located in proposed outlot. A area
on tie -site pfan. The Conprehensive Plan also identifies a
buffer strip-so to 1oo feet in width along Audubon -Road and
along the southern side of the property line- -The intent of
this buffer line is to help preserve and establish vegetation
to help nitigate the inpicts of developuent to surrounding
properfies. The proposal i.s fu1ly consistent rrith the
comprehensive PIan.
6. Parks and open space. The creation of public open space nay
be required by the city. such park and open space shall be
consistent wittr ttre courprehensive Park Plan and overalL trail
p1an.
Ryan construction
Septenber 4, 1991
Page L1
rINDIIIG: The 6ite plan shows a loop trail around theperineter of the site, terninating aE the northern analsouthern property line- along Audubon Road. The applicants naypropose to develop .only the south half of this -loop, with iconnection then being Dade through the rairroad tinnel andonto the property to the north which is also controlled byRyan Construction. .In add.ition, the parklopen Space corridoialong Bluff creek-, including the nature itina oi trees, wiUbe preserved. The park and Recreation conmission witt uereviewing this proposal in September.
7. Provision of hous-ing affordable to alt incone groups ifappropriate sith the pUD.
arNDrNG: This provision of the puD district is not applicableto this proposal .
8' Energy conservation through the use of nore efficient buildingdesisns and sishtinss and.he crusterins "i ;;ii;i;;I lil r""auses.
FINDII{G: Ryan Construction intends to pursue the use ofrailroad spur ]ines for _I-ots 2,.4, e lnd 7 during theprelininary design. stage..
_ The applicants are l."p""i"i'"""rgyconservation for
-
the - buildingJ -in two waysl 'Fi;;i', earthmounding will help shietd th; building. 'f.on ifr"- =L."orr.fHeather extremes. secondly, architectriral treatneni -ot tfr"building wirl atte:rnFt to capture the nost efficient an.effective design related to eriergy conservation.
The lighting fixtures selected for. use in the parking Iotareas and on the public streets hrill be outfit€;d ;itr, .r,energy saving type- of 1amp. Additiona1ly, ttrey w-iff i-ncfuaephoto electric cerls to turn then onloff'""il.iti"iiryl
9. Use of traffic nan-a-genent and design techniques to reduce thepotential for traffic confricts. improvenents to area roactsand intersections may be required as- appropriate. ----
FfNDIIG: The nain access to the site is off of Audubon Road.Designated as a collector street by the City Conprehensivep,an,-it rras upgraded last year. Tratfic irp-.6""r""-*-,i"t
"=turn lanes that uray be warianted to suppor€ tne proiect wiffbe recommended as a condition of approval. This road is acarver county corlector. Arr access'ior the :.ois wiii ue rro,the proposed extension of Lake Drive west. rir" ipfiiEiL "."requesting to have access onto Audubon fron Gt-i:-- Thetraffic study will also review this proposaL.
Sumnarv
Staff finds the request to be reasonable - We believe it will
result in a high quafity development that is consistent vith the
conprehensive p1an, ordinance standards and the goal of creating a
proj ect that is sensitive to its surroundings. As a matter of
Loritesy, we would recornrnend that the applicant meet with area
residenis inforrnally and respond to concerns that they may have '
I{e note that staff expanded the notice area so.et'hat so that
residents in the Tinberwoodr/sun Ridge court and south Audubon Road
area could be involved.
staff has inforned the applicant that an Environnental Assessment
Worksheet nust be preparea to suPport the Proposal. - we believe it
i= ".."="..y to aliow- the city to- conduct a realistic appraisal of
the project.
STAFF RECOIITMENDATION
staff reconmends that the PUD concePt Plan for the chanhassen
Business center be approved subject to the following conditions:
1. Prepare an Environmental Assessment worksheet for the project
to be reviewed with fornal PUD request.
2. Petition the city to undertake a feasibility study on
providing services to the site.
3 Prepare a fornal PUD subrnittal responding to issues raised in
thi-s report, as weII as those raised at Pla:rning Corrrnission
anCl City Council meetings, uhile working with staff on the
plan developnent.
ATTAC}I},TENTS
llemo from llark Littfin dated August 28,
ttleno fron Dave Henpel dated August 28,
Narrative fron applicant.
concept p1ans.
L
2
3
4
1991.
1991.
Ryan construction
Septenber 4, l99l
Page 12
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . PO. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-s739
MEMORANDUM
TO: Kathy Aanenson, Pl anner
FROM: Mark Litt?in, Fire Manshal
DATE: August 28, 1991
SUBJ: 91-4 PUD - Rezone Agriculturel District toAudubon Road, South of llilwaukee, St. paul Industrial (East ofPacific Railroad. )
Comment s and/or reconmendat ions:
1 Cul -de-sac
turnaround
Additional
street A.
at end of street "Afor Fi re Depantment
" & "B" must accommodate
Hydrants must be spaced at thnee
Aerial Truck.
hundred (300' ) foot intervals.
Fire Hydrant needed 300' west of Audubon on proposed
Move hydrant on street B,
2
3
4
5 A ten foot clear space mustie: NSP, telephone, Ras.
150' closer to street
be maintained around
A.
fire hydrant s,
6 Street names must be approved byand Fire Department.
the Public Safety Department
7. Indicate size of D.I.P. water main on ,'B,' street.
\CH[NH[ESEN
UEII{ORANDUU
TO: Kate Aanenson, Planner II
FRoM: Dave Eempe1 , Sr. Bngineering Technician
DATE: August 28, 19 91
SUBJ: Proposed Chanhassen Business Center
File No. 91-13 LUR
Upon review of the concept Plans
Cinter locateil along the west side
the railroad tracks, as PreParedilated August 9, 1991, I offer
recommentlations :
for the Chanhassen Business
of Audubon Road lYing south of
by Ryan Construction ComPanY
the -following cornments and
RADING AND DRAINAGE
UTILITIES
The site consists of generally rolling terrain and is employetl in
ijr;.cuftural uses. it" concept proposes the entire site to be
*i"s-giaa.a ." . p"rf or tn. inai" i - construction' The grading
piin -.pp..t" to -overatt maiitain the existing .sit-e- drainage
;;rI".;'-the site ."iientrv_drains westerly into rhe Bluff creek
iatershed. As a part oe this development, . plans . propose
.on"tru.t:."n of a retention pontl to collect the in'lustrial park
storm runoff. tne -rliention' pond is proposed. within the - flood
n] ain which in turn ios"s .,afirable flootl staging area- and will
;;;.."il;ig"ti";. -itre aPpticant shouril be requireil to work
with the DNR, watershed Distiict anil Fetleral Emergency Management
ig.;"y ireuai in aneniling the floodway bounilaries '
The plans proposed conveying storm -water runoff through a series
;f-"-t;;* slwei pip.s-"ti'"r, 6nd E discharging into the retention
;;";:---;";;-l"f Ia-;i"t provid-ed. -with i storm sewer lead for
future extension t" pi"p.i"Ja individual developments ' -This wilI
;ii;i;"i. ihe need tl i-eeuire individual rerention ponds on each
"ii" "t i"t in turn leads to much less maintenance'
The site
san i tar y
is proposeil to serviced with
three phases.
municipal waeer
Service wi 1I
and
besewer servlce
be
in
CITY OF
690 COULTER ORIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
@
Kate Aanenson
August 28, 19 91
Page 2
initially extended with phase I from Audubon Road at theintersection of future Lake Drive West. The h,ater system rriIleventually be loopetl throughout the business cente! back out toAudubon Roacl south of Heron Drive. A detailed water analysisshalL be prepared by the applicant rs engineer to insure adequatefire flow and good srater quality. The final locations of firehydrants, which typically is based upon a maximun spacing of 300feet, will be reviewed with anil approved by the City whin finalplans are prepared.
The plans also plopose extending municipal sanitary sewerinitially from Audubon Roa.tl as a part of phaie I. Both capacityand gravity constraints will require the entire site eveniuall!be. serviced by a future extension of a trunk line from the south.This parcel is included w-ith the City's comprehensive sanitaryieler study. This development should petition the City toinitiate preparation of a feasibility study to extend i trunksanitary sewer line to service this arla and-adjacent parcels.
As a part of phase f construction the concept plans propose thatLots l, 3, 10 and lL b9 temporarily sefvicla by- the City,sexisting sanitary sewer in Audubon Road until su6h ti^e- "" asewer line is available from the south. In addition, based onas-built p1ans, it appears Lot LZ may also be temporarilyserviced . through the City's existing lanitary ""r".
' it theintersection of Heron Drive and audibon Road.- However, thewatermain would need to be ext.ended south along Audubon Road.
sanitary sewer design for this site should be evaluated with thedevelopment's environmental assessment worksheet (EAW).
STREETS
The .plans propose a single entrance to the business park fromAudubon Road. The access is aligned with the future ext-ension ofLake Drive West. The proposeil street ("An) becoma" " ara.y longcul-de-sac of approximately l70O feet with no plani foiextension. A detailed traffic study should be pr'epared todetermine exactly irhat types of turn lanes will Ue reg'uirea tohandre anticipated traffic movements generated with this proposalat the intersection of Lake Drive west and Audubon Road. as trrefinal_ plat is prepared, detailed construction arawinfs oi tt.street improvements shourd also be submitted to the ciiy for
Iiyi?y and appr-oy3l_. rhe_ roadway shourd be desijnett- i6 rn.Clty's commer ci alli ndustr i aI standards.
Th9 plans propose a drivewayAudubon Road. AccordingTransportation Study, Audubon
access for Lot I directly offto the Eastern carver countyRoad will be a major traffic
Kate Aanenson
August 28, 19 91
Page 3
collector. It is recommentled that all driveway accesses be off
interior streets in an effort to retluce access points onto
Audubon Road. If no feasible interior driveway access is
u"iiiiUf", at a minimum the driveway access for Lot 1 should be
iocateil in such a eray to align with the existing driveway across
the street ( Stocktlale property).
MI SCELLANEOUS
REC OMMENDED COND I TI ONS
The appropriate utility and drainage easements shouLd be conveyeil
""- tf,-.; f i'.J plat f or- util ity antl tlrainage improvements outside
;i ;ir; stieei right-of -way. Additional .right-of -\'tay . 1.y be
i"q"iiia arong auaiuon Roail (80 feer roral righr-of way widrh).
1.
2.
6.
Storm drainage pipes shall be designed -for a 10-year
freguency stoim u€iiizing the 'rational methotl" '
Storm drainage retention antl detention areas and outlet
pipi"g shall be designed for a 100-year frequency, 24-hour
itlr*- duration, sirigle event using the 'scs urethod "
established for use iri uinnesota. The ilischarge rate shall
not exceeil the predeveloped runoff rate.
A11 utility anal street improvements shall be constructed in
a.coraan.e- with the curre-nt eclition of the cityr s standaril
soecificatlons and detail plates. Detail-ed street and
;iiiily--"";struction plans and s-pecificaEions shalI be
""u*itt"a for City Council approval . Street improvements
"f,uii
- - -
""nf "r* iitt the -City's commerc ia1,/i ndustr ial
standards .
The appticant shall apply for and obtain permits fro-m. the
wii"r"^ri"a District, or,rn and other appropriate regulatory
ig.t.i"" anil comply h,ith their conditions of approval '
An erosion control ptan shall be tlevelopeil antl incorPorateil
into the grading plan. Final gracl.ing anti drainage plans
shall be piepared anil submitted for City Council apProvar '
The applicant shalt relocate the propo-setl retentsion pold
""t"ia-.'or the flood plain or be required to work with EEMA
in amentling flood plain boundaries.
The watermain system shaII be designed to insure adequate
fire flow for Ltre site. Detailed calculations shall be
""U.itt.a to the city Engineer verifyinlt pipe sizing'
3
5
7.
10. The applicant shall prepare
worksheet for the site.
o The applicant shaIl petition the City to initiate preparationof a feasibility report for the construction of the trunksanitary sewer to provide sanitary sewer service for theentire site.
9 The applicant sha11 enter into a developmentthe City and provide the financial seCurity
compliance with the terms of the contract.
an environmental assessment
11 . The applicant shall be responsibte for constructionroadway improvements along Audubon Road necessitateitdevelopment, i.e. right and left turn Lanes.
of all
by .this
12. All lots shall be accessed from internal
Audubon Road.
streets and not from
13. Wiring conduits should be installed at the intersection
Audubon Road and Lake Drive West as a part of this projectenable the installation of a traffic signal in the iutire.
of
to
14.
ktm
Street lighting should be incorporated into the constructionplans for the development. Lighting sha11 be consistent withthe Chanhassen Business park area anil Lake Drive.
c: Charles Fo1ch, City Engineer
Kate Aanenson
August 28, 19 91
Page 4
contract withto guarantee
cHINH[SSEI{
TO
MEMORANDT'I.I
FROM:
SUBT:
At the August 21, 1991, Planning Connission roeeting,
changes were nade to the proposed landscaping Ordinance.
urade the changes as requested by the Cornrnission. A
these changes include:
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
Planning Cournission
Kate Aanenson, Planner and Jo Ann oLsen, senior Planner
August 30, 1991
Irandscape Ordinance
DATE :
1
2
Staff reconmends the
rnot ion:
addit ional
Staff has
sunmary of
Planning conmission adopt the following
Protection of trees during conatruction [section 2o-1UB (c)
(6-8) l
Renoval of alternative landscaping provisions Isection 2o-1a77
(4) t.
changed the subdivision regulations - section 18-51 (d) to be
consistent with the Tree Preservation Regrulations - Section(c) (1-8).
rn addition, Halla Nursery and AIan Olson from the Forestry
Division of the DIIR have been sent copies of a tree species list.staff is waiting for cornments and rj.1l then propose a new list of
appropriate trees.
RECO}4MENDATTON
rrThe Planning Cornmission recoEoends approval of the Landscape
ordinance as shown in Attachnent #l.tr
ATTACHMENTS
1. Proposed Landscape ordinance.
lDt,PRINTED ON RECrcLEO PAPER
3.
CITY OF
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COT'IflTIES, UTNNESOTA
ORDTNANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE A!,IENDING CHAPTER 18 AND CHAPTER 20 OF TIIE
CHANIASSEN CITY CODE, THX SUBDIVISION AND ZONING ORDINANCE
trticls xxv
Landscapl,Dq and Iree nenoval
I
DIVISION 1. GENERALLY
Section 2O-fL76. fntent, scope and compl.iance.
(a) The intent of this article is to inprove the appearanceof vehicular use areas and property abutting p-urric rigrri-s--oi-way;to require buffering betrreen- non-conpatiSfi :.ana "!""; i"a t"protect, preserve and promote the aesthetic appeal, character andvalue of the surrounding neighborhoods i to pi6note puUii- -treaftfr
and safety through the reduction of noise poliution, "ir p"rr"ti"",visual pollution and glare.
*
(b) TblB artl'cr. ao€8 Dot appry to singre f.liry d.tach.atresidences ia tbe r-1., r-2, nn and-irsi roaiag 11rt"Gi-r'rilJu "r"r€gurated by lrDdlscrping requireneDts contaiaia in tle iuiarvisioaOrdinance.
(c) No net site developnent, building, structure or vehicularuse area.is al1owed, unless landscaping i5'proviaed a" -i"quii"a inthis article.
- ._ (d) No property lines shall be altered nor shall anybuilding, structure or vehicular use area be expanded, ,rrri"E tn"nininun-randscaping required by rhe prori"i"r,=--;;--;;i: iriil. i.provided for the entire property.
(e) The landscaping standards sharl provide for screening fory+.y31 -inpacts assoclatLd nith a giv-n-use, i""r"Ji"e--;"i ""tlirnited to:
1
o truck loading areas io trash storage;o parking 1ots, interior 1ot areas and periueters;o large unadorned building nassing;
o garage doors associated with auto oriented usesi ando vehicular stacking areas for drive through uses
(f) Buffering shall be provided between high intensity and
low intensity uses and between a site and najor atreets and
highways and in areas uhere buffering is required by the
Comprehensive Plan.
(S) Th€ City thall eDcourage r.foroBtatioD through boulevard
and streetscape Planting ffi.
(h) uature stands of trees shall be preserved.
(i) Reforestation shall be pursued as appropriate.
section 2o-LL77. PIan subEission arrd-a1ryreva* i TiD€ of corpl€tioDt
triaaacial GuaraDtees.
The property owner or developer shall prepare a landscape plan
drawn by a iegiitered landscaPe architect or other professional
acceptable to the city for review by the city. The city sha1I
app:.y ttre following conditions in approval or disapproving the
plan:
(1) The contents of the plan shall include the following:
a Plot p1an, draun to an easily readable scale,
showing and tabelling by nane and dirnensions, all
existing and proposed property lines, easements,
buildings, and other structures, vehicuLar use
areas (including parking stalls, driveways, service
areas, square footage), water outlets and landscape
rnaterial ( including botanical nane and conmon name,
installation size, on center planting dinensions
where applicable, and quantities for all plants
used).
Ilpical elevations and/or cross sections as nay be
required.
Titfe block with the pertinent nanes and addressed
(property owner, person drawing plan, and person
installing landscape naterial), scale date, north
arrow (generally orient plan so that north is to
top of plan), and zoning district.
b
c
d Existing landscape materiaf shall
required plan and any naterial
condition nay be used to satisfy
rrhole or in part.
be shorrn on thein satisfactorythis article in
2
(2) Where landscaping is required, no buildi ng pernit shallbe issued until the reguired J.andscaping plan has beensubnitted and approved,and no certificate of occupan cy shallbe issued until the Ia ndscaping is conpleted as cert ified byan on-site inspection by the building inspector,unless an
financial guaraDte e acc€ptable to the city has been subnitted.
* (3) yllren screening,
_
landscaping or other sinilar inprove,entsto property are required by this ordinance, a 1etter- of creditor cash .scloy shal.I be supplied by the owner in an aDountequal to at lee:ct one hundred ten (ilO) percent of the valueof such screenirg, landscaping or othei inprovenents. Thesecurity nust be satisfaclory to the citiy ana sha1l beconditioned upon reinbursement bt arr expensei incurrla uy trrecity for engineering, regal or other fels in connection -with
naking or conpleting such inprovenents. The guarantee- sfral1be provided prior to the issuance of any buileint femit anasha1l be valid for a period of tine equal to ""6 fii rulfgrowing .season after the date of insiaffatlon 'o'f thelandscaping. f ered+t er--€asherr€ror.- In the event construction of the project is notconpleted within the tine prescribed by buildine -pernils andother approvals., .the city -nay, at its option. iSnpf-ete tfrework reguired at the expense of ttre ownef and the strety.
-Thg city nay allow an extended period of tine forconpletion of .a11 landscaping if the aefiy 1s - aue toconditions which are reasonably beyond the c6ntrol of thedeveloper. Ext-ensions which nay no€ exceed nine -igi
n-onths,tnay be -granted due to seasonar oi weather conditions.' wh"r, .,extension is.granted, the city sirarr requir" irr"r, iaaitionarsecurity as it deens appropriite.
DIVISTON 2. TREE REilEY*S PRBSENVATIOX REGUIATIONS.
Section 20-1178. cenerally.
(1)- It is the policy of the city to preserve natural woodlandareas throughout the city and with r-spect to specifit sitedeveLopnent to retain as fir as practicar, lubstantiai tree standswhich can be incorporated into €he overail ranascape pi;;. -
(b) No clearcutting of woodland areas sha1l. be pemittedexcept as approved in a subdivision, planned unii aevlf[pnent orsite pJ.an application.
(c) The following standards shall be used in evaluatingsubdivisions and site plans:
(1) To the.extent pr_actical, site design shall preservesignificant hroodland areas.
3
(2) Eorltby shade trees of six (6) inches orcatiper at four (4) feet in height shall be
unless it can be denonstrated that there
other feasible vay to develop the site.
DIVISION 3. I,ANDSCAPING STANDARDS
Section 2o-Lf79. Landscape Budget.
:nore
savedis no
(3) Rsplac€neDt of
e+--r€reved trees applov€d for reDovll by the clty
Day bs raquir€d on a caliper inch Per caliper inchbasis. At :oininun, however, replacenent treessha11 conforn to the planting requirementidentified in Division 3 of this article.
(4) During the tree renoval process, trees shall be
rerooved so as to prevent blocking of public rights-
of-way or interfering with overhead utility lines.
(5) The reDoval of diseased and danaged trees is
permissible only if they cannot be saved.
(5) Trees d6sigDated for presernatl'oD 3ba11 be
protect€d by snor f€lcc or other DeaDs accePtalrle
to the eity. Protectlve Dsaauroa lust bo locat€d
at o! beyoDd the grourd lootprlnt of tho t!€srs
crorD. N-o fill naterial or coDstructlou activity
Bball occur vlthia thess ar€aa. fbose Deaaurss
Dust be iD placo rDat lDaPoctsd Prior to the Btart
of gradling activity.
l7t Tr6€s dasigDat€d for presenratioD that are loat alue
to coastructioD activity 8ba11 be rePlaced by Dew
conpatible treea approvod by ths city. Ihe city
viII requlrs tho develoPer to raPlace thege trees
witb tb€ largost conParabls trees that are
counercially available tor transportatloa.
(8) At the cityrs diecretioar consernatioD eas€neDts
nay b6 requlr€d to Protect desigaated tr€e
presen atl,or rr€as.
(a) lFhere L,aDd3caplng shall be provided }ai&€ap+ng-iee++iq
tbat ne€ts the minimum landscaping budget provided in the table
beIow.
4
PRq'ECT VALUE I{rNrUUU IANDSCAPE
VALUE(Including building construction,site preparation, and site inprovenents )
Below S1, O00r 00O 2$
$1,000,001 - s2,ooo,ooo S20,0OO + lt ofkoj ect Value inexcess of
S1, ooo, 000
$2,OOO,OO1 - $3,OOO,OOO $3o,ooo + 0.758of Project
Value in excessof $2r000r000
s3 , 000, 001 $4, ooo, ooo $37,50o + o.25gof Project
Value in excessof $3,000,000
Over 94, 0OO, 0oO
At the cityts discretion, the value of treeutilized to offset landscaping requirenents.
Section 20-1180. ScreoDing lor Visual IEFacts.
(a) my-++*a+--+apae+Vl.gual lnpacta Dust be acroeted orbuffered as 8€guirod by tbe c tty. Thes€ Bhall includebutnot be linited to , truck loading areas, trash stora ge, parking1ots, interior lot a reas and perineters , outdoor ato rag6 lr€as,large unadorned buiLd ing rnassing, garage doors associa ted with autooriented uses and v ehi cular stacking areas for dri ve-thru uses.
1)
1*
preservation may be
I:qil:1__=^g:_".1in9-"" bufferins for any visuat inpact nayDe achreveal uith fences, ualls, earth berns, h6ages oiother la.ndscape naterials. All ualls and fences-shall
:::. -a,lclrite_?turally harrnonious with the principiiDulJ,cltng. rue us€ of yood€D screeD feDces or clata tiatf€Dcea equipp€at rith slats ia prohibited. Earth barn;sha1l not exceed a slope of 3:r utrlssa proviAea riillaadscaping d€sigaed to niainize naintenaace. The screenshalI. be designed to emptoy naterials wir:."fr p-itviJe-ineffective visual barrief auling a1I seasons.
5
All required screening or buffering sha1l be located onthe lot occupied by the use, building, facility orstructure to be screened. No laaalacape screening or
buffer+ng shall be Located on any pub).ic right-of-way orwithin eight (8) feet of the traveled portion of anystreet or highway.
Screening or buffering required by this section shall beof a height needed to acconplish the goals of thissection. Height of plantings required under this section
shal1 be measured at the tiroe of installation.
3)
4)
Section 20-1181. Vehicular Areas.
2)
3)
(b) The following uses shalt be screened or buffered in
accordance with the requlrenents of this subdivision:
1) Principal buildings and structures and any buildingor structure accessory thereto located in any
business, industrial or planned unit development
district containing non-residential uses shal1 be
buffered from lots used for any residential
purpose.
2l Principal buildings and structures and any building
or structure accessory thereto located in any R4,
R8, R12, R16 District or planned unit development
district containing residential developroent at
densities exceeding 4 units Per acre sha1I be
buffered from ]ots located in any A1, A2, RR or RSF
District.
Additional buffer yard requirenents are established
by the city Comprehensi.ve Plan and listed in
individual district standards.
outside storage in any district subi ect to these
provisions and allowed by other provisions of this
6rdinance, shall be screened from all public views.
(a) Parking lot perineters uhere vehicular areas, including
driveways and drive aisles, are not entirely screened visuall'y by
an intervening building or structure from any abutting right-of-
way, there shill ue provided landscaping designed to buffer direct
vi-ews of cars and hard surface areas. The goal of this section is
to break up expanses of hard surface areas, heLp to visually define
bouLevards and soften direct views of parking areas.
(b) Interior Landscaping for Vehicular Use Areas:
Ioading,and BG
1) Any open vehicular use are (excluding
unloading, and storage areas in IoP
5
Districts) containing nore than six thousand(5,000) square feet of area, or twenty (20) or Dorevehicular parking 6paces, sha11 provide interiorlandscaping i.n accordance with this division inaddition to nperinetertr landscaping. Interiorlandscaping may be peninsular or island t)pes.
2l For each one hundred (100) square feet, or fractionthereof, of vehicular use area, five (5) squarefeet of landscaped area shall be provided.
3) The nininum landscape area pemitted shall besixty-four (64) square feet, with a four footninirnum dinension to all trees fron edge ofpavement where vehicles overhang.
4) In order to encourage the required landscape areasto be - p-rgp-er1-y dispersed, no required llndscapearea sha]1be.Iarger_ than three hundred fifty (35-o)square feet in vehicular use areas under -thirty
thousand (30,000) square feet. In both cases, th6least dinension of any reguired area sfraft Ue iourlfoot nininum dinension to all trees from edge ofpavement where vetricles overhang. Landscape areaslarger th-an above are pernitt6d as long' as theadditional areas are in excess of the requiredrnininum.
5) A ninimun of one (1) tree shal1 be required foreach. .tuo _
hundred fifty (250) sguare- ieet orfraction - thereof, of ie4iirea finascap- area.Trees sha1l have a clear trunk of at least. five (5)feet above th€ ground, and the renaining area shatfbe landscaped with shrubs, or ground co'ver (not toinclude -rog]_rs or gravel ) , noC to exceed tiro 1Z Ifeet in height.
5) parked vehicles nay hang over the interiorlandscape area no noie than- tlro and ""e_tiii tzllfeet, as long as a concrete curb is prJviaea toensure no greater overhang or penetraEion of thelandscaped area.
7l All landscaped areas shall be protected by concretecurbing.
Section 2O-LLA2. Foundation and Aesthetic plantings.
(a) Landscaoing plans shall provide for an appropriate mix ofplantings around'thd.ixteri"f-;o-"i;;i;i ot a1r buildinss. rheintent of this section is to iuriiove ttre applirincE-ie trr"structures and, where necessary, ureat< up targe u'n'aaorn"J rarirai..rg
7
(1) wa11s and fences. t{alls shall be constructed of
natural stone, brick or other appropriate
naterials. Fences shall be constructed of wood-
Chain link fencing wiII be Pernitted only if
covered uith ptant naterial or otherwise screened.
(2'.)
(3)
Earth berrns. Earth berms shal] be physical
bariers which block or screen the view sirnilar to
a hedge, fence, or wall. uounds shall be
constructed with proper and adequate plant naterial
to prevent erosion. A difference in elevation
between areas requiring screening does not
constitute an existing earth mound, and shal1 not
be considered as fulfilling any screening
requirenent.
Plants. AII plant materials shaLl be living
plantsi artificial plants are prohibited. Plant
rnaterials shall neet the following requirements:
a) Deciduous trees. shaIl be species having an
average mature crown sPread of greater than
fifteen (15) feet and having trunk(s) uhich
can be naintained vith over five (5) feet of
clear wood in areas which have visibility
requirements, except at vehicular use area
intersections Irhere an eight (8) foot clear
wood requirenent lrill control . Trees having
an average nature spread of crown less than
fifteen (15) feet may be substituted by
grouping of the same so as to create the
equivalent of a fifteen (15) foot crolrnspread. A ninirnum of ten (1o) feet overall
8
elevations. These plantings are not intended to obscure views of
the building or accessory signage.
(b) AL1 undeveloped areas of the site, excluding protected
wetlands and tree preservation areas, shall be seeded or sodded.
In addition, an appropriate mix of trees and other plant uaterial
sha11 be provided to create an aesthetically pleasing site.
(c) I{here undeveloped or open areas of a site are located
adjacent to public rlght-of-way, the Plan shall provide for over-
story boulevard trees. A mininun of one (1) tree for every thirty(30) feet of frontage is required. The city nay aPProve
atternatives if it meets the intent of the ordinance.
Section 20-1183. Landscaping l,laterials.
(a) The landscaping naterials shall consist of the following:
c)
e)
9
b)
d)
height or ninimum caliper (trunk dianeter,
measured six (5) inches above ground for treesup to four (4) inches caliper) of at least trroand one-halt (2\) inches irnrnediately afterplanting shall be required. Trees of specieswhose roots are known to cause danage topublic roaduays or other public works -shalI
not be placed closer than fifteen (1S) to suchpublic works, unless the tree root systen isconpletely contained within a barrier forwhich the nininum interior containingdinensions shaLl be five (5) feet square andfive (5) feet deep and for shich theconstruction requirements sha1l be four (4)inches thick, reinforced concrete.
Evergreen trees. Evergreen trees shall be anininum of six (6) feet high with a rnininuncaliper of one and one-half (1t) inches whenplanted.
Shrubs and hedges. Deciduous shrubs shalI beat least two (2) feet in average height whenplanted, and shall conforn to the opa6ity andother.requirenents within four (4) yLars lfterplanting. Evergreen shrubs shalj 6e at leasttwo (f) feet in average height and trro (2)feet in dianeter.
Vines. Vines sha1l be at least twelve (12)inches high. at planting, and are generiffiused in conjunction with valls or feices.
Grass br ground cover. Grass shall be plantedin-species normally grovn as pernanent lawns,and- nay be sodded, plugged, sprigged, oiseededi except in swalej or 6ttr,ii areassubject to erosion, where solid sod, erosionreducing net, or suitable nulch sha1I be used,nurse-grass seed shal] be sown for irnnediateprotection until conpl.ete coverage otherwiseis achieved. crass sod shall U1 cfean anafree of weeds and noxious pests or diseases.Ground cover such as organia naterial shall beplanted in such a manner as to present afinished ,appearance and seventy-f:.ve -
1zs1percent of cotplete coverage afLer two '(2i
conplete growing seasons, with a naxinum oft1fteen (15) inches on center. In certaincases, ground cover al.so nay consist of rocks,pebbles, sand and sinilar approved naterials.
f)Retaining valIs exceeding five (5) feet inheight, including stage walls which
cumulatively exceed five (5) feet in height,
Dust be constructed in accordance with plans
prepared by a registered engineer or landscapearchitect of brick, concrete or naturaL stone.Artificial material may be approved if
appropriate.
DTVISION 4. UAINTENANCE AND INSTALIATION.
Sectio! 2. SectioD 18-51 ot the chanhasser city coate i8
aroDdeal to r€ad3
section 18-51. L,andscaping and Tree Preservation Reguirenents.
(a) Reguired Landscaping/Residential Subdivision
1) Each lot sha1l be provided with a nininum of three
(3) trees, two (2) trees shall be deciduous and one(1) a coniferous tree. The ttTre of tre€ shall be
subject to city approval. (the city will provide a
list of species). Coniferous trees nust be at
Ieast 6 feet high and deciduous trees nust be at
least 2\ inches in dianeter at the tine of
installation. At least one (1) deciduous tree Eust
be placed in the front yard area. lsree+{r#t--lte
*rs+al*ae'i€n-' This requirement nay be waived for
up to trro (2) of the required trees by the city
when the applicant can demonstrate that suitable
trees having a nininum dianeter of € 2l inches for
declduoug .Dd 5 loot helgbt for evergr€€D and 4feet above the ground are located in appropriate
locations on the Iot. The waiver shal.l be applied
10
Section 20-1184. Generally.
The osner, tenant, and their respective agents shal1 be heldjointly and severally responsible to ruaintain their property and
landscaping in a condition presenting a healthy, neat and orderly
appearance and free from refuse and debris. Plants and ground
cover which are requi.red by an aPProved site or landscape Plan and
which have died shall be replaced within three (3) months of
notifications by the city. However, the tiloe for conpliance nay be
extended up to nine (9) loonths by the director of planning in order
to al1ow for seasonal or Ireather conditions.
ffi
for each existing tree against
on a one-for-one basis.each required tree
fr€es lust be itr8tall€d prlor to receivl,ag acertificate of occupaDcy oi fiaaaclat gruaran€eesacceptablo to tbe city rust be provl,ded to casuretiD€ly iaetallatLol.
+|3) A11 areas disturbed by site grading and,/ orconstruction rnust be seeded or sodded iuneaiatlfyupon conpletion of work to nininize erosion. Whencertificates of occupancy are requested prior tothe satisfaction of this requirenent, financialguarantees acceptable to the city, nust beprovided.
+a) No dead trees or uprooted stu[ps shall renain afterdeveloprnent. on-site burial is not pernitted.
+|5) Landscaped buffers around the exterior of thesubdivision shall be required by the city rhen theplat is contigruous with collLctor or- arterialstreets as defined by the CornFrehensive plan andwhere the plat is adj acent to nore intensive Landuses. Required buffering shall consist of bernsand landscape naterial consisting of a nix of treesand shrubs and,/or tree preserva{,ion areas. Whereappropriate, the city may require additional lotdepth and area on lots containing the buffer sothat it can be adequately acconiodatea ina tfrehones- protected fron inpact!. Iot depths and areasnay be _ increased by 25* over zo;ing districtstandards. -The. landscape - plan nust be- developedwith the prelininary ana tinat plat subniitais forcity .app-roval . Ap_propriate ffnancial guiiinteesacceptable to the city sha11 be requiredi
b). - It i-s the policy of the city to preserve natural woodtandareas throughout the city and riah raspect to specific sitedevelopurent to retain as fir as practical, substantiai tree standswhich can be incorporated into €he overail fanascJpe pfi. -
c) No clearcutting of- woodland areas shal1 be pernittedeTcept as approved in a subdivj.sion, planned unit tevlfilnent orsite plan application.
d) The following standards shalt be used in evaluatingsubdivisions and site plans:
(1) To the^.extent pr-actir.al, site design shall preservesignificant rroodland areas.
2l
11
(2') Eealthy shade trees of six (6) inches or
caliper at four (4) feet in height shall beunless it can be dernonstrated that there
other feasible uay to develop the site.
(4)
(s)
(6)
ltore
savedis no
(3) Replacerotrt ol
c++"eroved trees rpprovsd for reDov.l by tbo city
Day bo raqulr.al on a caliper inch per caliper inch
basis. At roininun, however, replacenent trees
shatl conform to the planting reguirement
identified in Division 3 of this article.
During the tree reDoval process, trees shall be
renoved so as to prevent blocking of public rights-
of-way or interfering with overhead utility lines.
The removal of diseased and danaged trees is
pernissible only if they cannot be saved.
tlr€es desigaated for pres€rnatioD thall be
protected by sDoy faDcs or othe! .DeaDs acceptable
to tbe city. Protective Beaaures Dust be locatedl
at or beyond the grouDd footpriut of the traers
croyD. lro fill naterial o! coDstructlon activity
sha1l occur sithia these areas. ThaEe D€asur€s
Eust be ia place anll iuspacted Plior to th€ start
of gradilg activity.
(?) Iraes lteal.gDateal for Pressryatiotr tbat are loat due
to coDstructiol activit!, sball be rePlac€d by Dor
conpatiblo trees aPProvsa by the clty. rhe clty
uil1 require tho dev€IoPor to r€plrc€ th€a€ trees
uith the largest conparaDle troes that are
connercially available for traDsPortatioa.
(8) lt the cityrs atiscr€tl.oD, coDservatio! oaseDerts
lay be required to protect desigaated tree
Presertatl,oD area3.
e) PiDaDciaI guaraDt€sB acceptable to the
reguired to sDsur. satisfactorl iDstalIatioD
requiremeats.
r
clty Bhall bo
of landscapiag
'l Eectiop 3. Eectl.or 20-LL7 aDdl SectioD 20-119 0f th€
chaDhasseD clty code are hereby rePealeA.
t2
. E ectl.op {. Tbis ordiDatrce shall be of f6ctl.vo luediatelyupou ita passage aad puDlicatioa.
ADOPTED by the Clty CouDciI of tbe City of Chanbasson thia_ day of _, 1991.
ATTEST !
DoD Aahyorth, City ltalagor Doaa1d J. Ch[iel, xayor
(Published ia the chaabasseD yillag6r oD _, 1991. )
*Recommended changes froro City Attorney
13
Chairnra:n Emmings calLed Lhe meeting !o order at 7:40 P'm
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMI"IISSION
REGULAR ].IEETING
AUGUST 2I , I99L
MEMB SENT: Tim Er har t
Brian Batz]i, Jeff Farmakes
STAFF P RESENT: PauI Kr au ss ,
Planner ; and Kathv Aanenson,
PUBLIC ARTNG:
, Ladd Conrad, AnnetLe
and Joan Ahrens
E11son, Steve Emmi ngs,
Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior
Planner II
RTY t^IITHIN THE CITY Z ONED A2. A GR I CUL TURAL ESTATE DISTR ICTREZON I NG OF PROP
TO RR. RU RAL RESI NTIAL DIST
Publ ic Present:
RICT.
Addr ESSName
Janr.r A. Poulc,s
Davici M, HalIa
Eric Podeve ] s
Bjorg & JerrY Hendrickson
Don HaIla
Mark Halla
Mar k Danielson
C har iotte Mor r ison
Blair Burv
Suni I Cho jerr
Lot 12, Deerbroo k
1OO95 Great PLains BIvd -
2OO South Shore Cour t
9oo Homestead Lane
10 ,ooo Great Plains BIvd.
77o Cr ee kwood
11 15O Sumter Cir cle
1o51 Homestead Lane
5537 co. Rd. 4, Minnetonka
74aO Long View Circ]e
55345
And you know when
years ago and then
hor^r you can use Lhat
I take strong
Kathy Aanenson presented the staff rePort on this item. chairman Emminss
called the public hearing to order -
David Hal]a: I'm David Halla. I sold part of Lhis ProPertv to mv brother
her" wh.n I ret.ired" I kep! lo r/4 acres for myself ' NoN we've been out
here bef ore Lhis t^ras even a city. t^lhen it was still a townshiP. Now of
course when it became a city iL had all of these PeoPIe come in and a1I
this bureaucracy to run everything but these peoPle in the Planning
Commission don't rePresent ti're PeoPIe. They rePresent their own Political
Iitt]e aim. The lhings that we've been doing wiLh Lhese Iarge acreages
haven'L interferred oi caused conflicts with other PeoPIe - But now thev're
foring in and wanting to change the way we do things and r don't Lhink Lhev
f,r"" i right to do that, Bu! they're going to ram it down our throaL and I
think this hearing is probably going Lo turn into a dog and Ponv show just
to legitimize lheir uay of coming in the back door and changing Lhings
"itn""t allowing the people to have a say. And I don't think that's risht'
I knour the Past history of Chanhassen, you People rubber Stamp everything
that the Planning peoPle come in and do and that isn't right'
Emmingsr It isn't true either -
David Halla: t^lell , a lot of it has been in the PasL '
you cor,e out and invest a lot of money in Property 30
you have people come in here and nou want Lo teII you
property, then it doesn't become a democracy anymore '
Planning Commission Meet i ng
August 2l , 7997 - Page 2
objeclions; to them coming and doing that- Another thing, you've got thisbluff rezoning Lhing. Now when I built my house out there, I builL my
house right on the edge of lhe bluff. I urould like to know how thesepeople in the Planning Commission geL the experLise to teII a homeourner ora developer how far to have a seLback. They don't know the ground
conditions in each area. I'm sure they're not that smart. I think eachlocation has it's own uniqueness. Now my house is built approximately 5feet from the edge of the bluff. I would have never built it that close ifI had thought that I'd have had a problem but iL took a D6 dozer 3 days todig the basement. That's how hard the ground was. I haven't had anyprobLems with erosion. f haven't had any problems !^,ith runoff. f evenbettered it. I Look and planted crown vetch on the hillside urhich grew areal good ground cover and prevented erosion buL now they come in with thisrule and say you have Lo build Lhe houses 30 feet back. Of course funderstand mine's grandfathered in but the point of it is, we,ve got too
damn much government. You know a little common sense Like the VillageFathers in Lhe tournship went a long urays- But nor.l it doesn,t seem that
common sense prevails. l^Je've got people coming in here with their ownrittle ideas and nol representing the interest of the people and uranting toram it doun our throat" The same thing with changing this from A2 to Rural
Res,i de nt i.rl -
Emmi ngs, : lnllret ef f ec,t does that change?
Emmings: Can he run cattle if he's
David H;Ila: ft's going to i.ncrease theyour tax(--s and already t^re're being taxed
David Halla: And Lhat certainly was
taxes.
out of
IT'S
house
going to i ncr ease
and home -
David Ha]la: l"rell they're goirrg to take away the Green Acresclassification when they go Lo Rural Residential _
Emnrings: And how will it increase your taxes?
Emmi ngs: Is that true?
Emmings: That's right. fs that right?
Aanensc,n: No Lhat's not. r didrr't mention that but that is in the memo-r did speak to the orrin Schafer at Lhe counLv Recorder's office and hesaid that the under).ying zoning is not Lhe criteria for Green Acres- Theyhave a checklist of criteria,. one of those being acreage. 5 acres Ibelieve and the use that thev're using has nothing to do with it. rt couldbe RSF and stilr guality for Green Acres so the underlying zoning is notthe criteria that they use.
David HaIla: But years ago f used to run registered Angusand I had a pretty good sized herd. They change this fiomResidential , that's not going to be all.owable anymore.
catt.Le
A-2 to
out there
R
an agricultural. use -
changed to RR?
Aanensorr: Agriculturalto have iL, he can.
says that they can have cattle and if he continues
PIanrr j ng Commission Heeting
August 21., L997 - Page 3
Emmings: So
David Hal.la:
that's not right either
Yeah, but not if they change it from
sLiII a permitLed use and
A-2 Lo AD
cattle is one ofAanenson: No , agr icu I tural is
those criteria -
David Halla:
RR.
But it's going to increase the taxes when you go from A-2 Lo
Emm i rrgs :
RR?
Is his property one of the ones lhat is being changed from A-2 to
Krauss: It is but there's something that I'm not certain of here. tJhat's
confusing nre is 3 years ago I believe the Halla's had aPproved a 5 year
variance to the ordinance that changed to 21/2 acye ]ots r.rhen the Lake Ann
agreement with the Hetro council - tle gave a couple of variances for plats.
Preliminary plats that were filed and they were given at least 5 years to
come in and final plat the property. This is the first time Lonight that
we've heard, well it's iir a .IeLter from Don HaIla that there's no intention
to subdivide Lhe property I think I read unlil the turn of the century,
That is rrot the understanding that we had with them 3 years ago. If that
in fact is the position, then r,re will assume that this is rural land noL
subject to the subdivision and there won't be any inherent grandfaLhering
for thosc 2 1.22 acle ]ots. [,le're more than wi]Iing to do that.
Emmings: Oiray, sio if they dc,n't want that land changed to RR, they could
say they'r'c not planning Lo develop the property. Get out of the
arrangernent that presently exisLs and keep it agricultural . Is that what
you 'r e say i ng?
K r auss i Sure .
Emming.-;: Alright, so they basically have a choice to go one way or the
other? okay. 5o hre've addressed two concerns of yours is the tax and
using it. for agricultural purposes. Do you have any other specific
problems with changing it or can you tell. us how else you think Lhis might
negatively affect you? The change from A-2 to RR.
David Halla: I sold this property to my broLher uhen I retired from the
busi ness -
Emmings; So it's his problem?
David Ha]1a: ft's his problem with the subdivision. However ,,Lhe fo L/4
acres that I've got are divided into 3lots that go r,lith the subdivision.
Nor., I don't intend to develop that into 3 lots. !.lhomever I seII it to, and
I hope r can seII it and get the hell out of l'linnesota as soon as possible
but whomever l seII it to then has the priviledge- of devel.oPing those other
two lots into additional acreage out of this 10 !/4 acres. So if my
brother u,,ants to drag Lhis Lhing out and procrastinate, that's his business
but then I become the victim if he doesn't Perform.
Emmings; And hour does the change from A-2 to RR affec! any of that?
Planning Commission Heet i ng
August 27, f991 - Page 4
David Ha]la: UeLl first of al], they may be telling you here, these people
in the Planning Commission Lhat Ehe taxes r,lon't increase but I've talked to
those people dc,wn there at the Assessor's office and they have told me that
uhen 7ou change. it from the agricultural to Rural Residential, the tax is
different than what it is on the agricultural rate.
Emmings: Okay, and who'd you talk to there?
David Halla: I talked to Scott, it starts with a t^l the last name.
OIsen; t^li nter- -
David Halla: tlinter? And I also talked to the main Assessor - In fact we
had a real go around here a while back. I t,,ent down when my brother did
this f irral plot on the subdivision because l am stil] involved in that to a
degree and I hand carried the papers in there and saw that all the taxes
were paid and everything and it went through to the registar and all ofthis and I was about to 90 out the door and the accounting office, the gal
called arrd said hey Hr. Halla. Come back here, So I came back and she
said you owe $75O.oo for Green Acres change. I said uhat do you mean Green
Acres change? Arrd he said, weII he said according to the assessor you
only have a 2 l/2 acre lot. I said what do you mean I've only got a 2 L/2
acre- .lc,t? I said I've 1O 1/4 acyes. I said that qualifies me for Green
Acres. She said no, it's been changed. So I went over to this young fel]a
r,rho clid thc changing in the Assessor's office and I said what did you do
changi ng this back here? I said I bras over here talking to you not more
than 10 minutes ago and I says now, I says I'm telling that I have to pay
$75O.oO for the Green Acres classification, I said that's wrong and you
flat out lied to me. I said you were the one who did it. I said this j.s
your initials isn'L iL? He said yeah. I said okay. I said urhy didn't you
tell nre you had done this? And so then Lhe head assessor came along and he
looked at it and he said, you're right. He said ue made an error and he
went acrc)ss the street to the accounting office and LoId her. He said hey.
He said he's got Lo l/2 acr-es here, Not 2 L/2. He said you had no right
doirrg that. And so they changed it all back but Lhat's the same thing thatwe're talking about here. t^lhen you change it from A-2 to Rural Residentialthat changes the class.if ication and the tax base. Nor., if these people wantto increase the Laxes on everybody that has Iarge land, why don't they have
enough guts to come out and say it instead of coming in the back door?
David Halla: They've told me that if you change it fromclassification to rural residential iL's a different tax
9oin9 Lo assess you at a higher tax rate. I think theseIf they don't know it, they're confused.
the agr i cu.l tur a l
base and they 'repeople know that.
Emmings: As a matter of fact, in the information they gave us, there's
inforrnatj.on here that they talked to Orlin Schafer who's the Carver County
Assessor and he says that the residential zones qualify for Green Acres andlhat lots that qualify or meet the criteria under A-2 would also qualify
under RR. That's the information we've got from staff that they got fromthe County Assessor. Now you're saying something quite different. I don't
know.
Plarrrri ng Commission Meet i n9
August ?1 , 7991 - Page 5
Aa ne nsc, rr : The misunderstandingis there's a minimum 5 aere loL
acree, they can apply for Green
size. I think what OrIin said
someone's zoned RR and has 5
ie the lo!size so if
Acr es .
L Emmings: I thousht it was 10.
Aanenson: Maybe iL's 10. So if he has 10 then he's fine.you're 21/2 and you 're A-2, then you couldn't get it. If
acres irr RSF you couldn't get it. It's the lot size. Notdesignation. The lot size.
So whether
you'Ye 2 L/2
the zoni n9
David Halla: Yeah but wha! you don'l undersland young lady is that ).arge
acreages are stiII Green Acres until it becomes Iess than 10 acres intc,tal . Sc, like in my broLhers situation where he's got 1OO and some acres.
Emmi nr3s: I think she's saying the same thing you are.
David Ha] .Ia: Yeah, he can sell off alL of those lots individually until hegets down to less than 1O acres. At that point or it has to be 10
contiguous acres. So after it becomes ]ess Lhan that, then they 9o intothis rural residential rale which is a higher classification. So if they
come in here and Nant to do this on these large acres and change i! fromA-2 to rural residenLial, you're going to increase the tax rate no matter
whart- they, are telling you - I rirean that's the bottom line.
Emmings: okay, and I guess you've raised some questions here. Our
motivation in doing this. Now this move hras motivated by us sitting uphere. [^Jhr:n we were ]Jorkil'rg on the Comprehensive Plan there uere some
issues that came up and it seemed to us to be a good idea to change
subdivisions in the A-2 to RR. We thought it was better for thesubdivisions, Not motivations about taxes, No motivations about any!hingelse. Just that it seemed Iike it fit beLter than i! does i.n A-2. Now it
may b,e thert and I guess I'd sti]I ]ike to know if you feel , ri.ght noh, you
have control over a parcel that potentially could hold 3 houses where now
there's one. Is that righ!?
David HalIa:Correct,.
it's presenlly A-2?
Correct.
Emm i ngs: And
David HalIa:
Emmi ngs: And I guess
adversely affect you?
you negaLiveLy?
my queslion to you
Not your brother.
is, wi]l the change from A-2 to RR
Not everybody but will it affect
David HaLla: Yes it will because it wiII increase my taxes going from A-2
L'.r r,1 .
Emmings: And you think thatthat uill happen immediatelyof your ]and?
wiII happen, once
regardless of what
passed you thi nk
with the devel opment
this
you
.Ls
do
Planning Commission MeeL i ng
August 21 , 7991 - Page 6
Davicl HalIa; That's correct. Arrd that's why I am adamantly against it and
I think some of these Iarge parcels of Land that are set aPart Lhat are
unique Iike m>, brother's situation there wiLh a nursery where it's
Iandlocked with the golf course on one side. tlith the canyons on the other
side. That's not going !o have a negative effect on the surrounding areas
because it's kind of like an island in itself. It has natural boundaries
that surround it that's separated away from the other residential so. It'sjust Iike the Graffunder that moved down there. Now he was a citv slicker
that come out of Bloomington.
Emmings; I Nas a city slicker from Minneapolis.
David Hal Ia : t^Jell okay. t^,hen Dave Teich's pigs would squeal uP there at
his house, he'd come up there and holler at him that his pigs uere
squealing. l,,lhe., n I had my caLtle out there and in June the couls get in
heaL. ThaL's when the cycle comes. The bulls beller. t^lell he was always
calling the Sheriff up and saying Halla's bu.Il are bellering. So finally I
told the Sheriff, I says tell him if he wants to come down and put a muzzle
on that 2,ooo pound bu]1, to 9o ahead and do it. I mean I think some of
these things are a Iittle bit asinine to come in and say hey, we're going
to categorically change al] of this stuff now from A-2 to Rural
Residential. Limit the use on everything when some of these areas are
unique amongst lhemselves" I think you have to judge each individual area.
You just can't categorically go across the board and sav hev. This is
r i 9ht f or er,,er ybocl)' .
Emmings: Let's back up. You said limit the use. This tron't limit the use
of your land cr- do you feel that it will?
David HaIla: I feel it wiII. It's already spelled out in here certain
things that they wanted it limi.ted to.
Emmi nge: And r,rhat way do you feel thaL it wil] limit the use of your
land? Again, let-'s stick to your land for purposes of your comments
because I uJant to know if iL's 9oin9 to harm you.
David HaIIa: okay. I used to run cattle out there. NoH if I go and put
cattLe back on Lhat land again and I've got a]l the squeeze chutes and the
scales and Lhe corrals and the pins and aII of that are in there. If I go
and put cattle on that l.and again and they say that you can't run it
agricultural and it's rural residential. tleII rural residential won't
classifi- for running cattle.
Emmings: Okay, we covered this once.
Resident: You couldn't build the shed
Emmings: That'.r true. You can't build
sometimes you have associated uith farm
it would limit your use.
for the cattle though.
the
use.
accessory buildingsThat's true. That
t hatis a way
David HaIIa: Right. But Lhe main thing is that f know Lhat going from A-2to RR is going to increase the taxes and we've got enough damn taxes right
now. The c,rr-Iy other thing that I'm objecting !o is this classification of
Planni ng Commission HeeLi ng
August ?7, fr97 * Page 7
lhe bluff setback. Nor,r I fhink Lhat has Lo be addressed individually,
Emmings: l^lait a minute, Can you hang around because ue're going
addrees that individually in just a few minutes, That's the nextthe agenda so uhy don't you hang around and give us your comments
to
item on
on that.
Davic.i Hal.la: nlri.ght, fine. Thanks,
Emnrings: fs there anybody else that wants to be heard on this? Yes sir
Mark DanieLson: l.1y name's Mark Danielson. I have a lot over in Lake Riley
Meadows and my concern is too about the taxes. To me it doesn't make senseLhat if you're going to 90 from agricultural zoned area to something that'scalled a residenlial that the taxes are going to stay the same. I thinkthat ne as properly owners need to have an assurance from somebody thaLtaxes may go up but r{e'l'e not going to be in a classification that's going
to junrp- us up. The other thing is at Lake Riley Meadou,s there's ohly a
cor.rpJ.e of IoLs IefL and I don'L think that anybody's going to come in there
anci put a cemetar)' in it and I would assume t.hat if .it's zoned A-2 theycan't jusL go in and put a cemetary in. They've got to come in and talk tothe c.ommies jon or whoever before that can be done. Some of lhe things
abouL buildinss or stables or that type of thing, I would think that Lha!
woul.d l-,ave to gc, L,ef ore a comnrission ancj I think it does say that lhere's
some variance for that and that's keeping with Lhe large Iot developmenL.If sonrcbody, brants to have horses, that's nice. It would makc sense to me,at leasL from my perspective and where fie have a lot, that ea,-;i one ofthese areas L,,e lookecl at to see where there's a potentia.I problem.
Obviously there must have been some reason that you decided that maybe
these shorrld b.e RR versus A-2- tJhether it was a specific problem that you
had uith fear that somebody was going Lo come in and lJant to do something,but some c,f these areas, especially if there would be a change in the
taxesr , are basically developed. I don't know as weII the other large lotareas but I can speak for our area on that. Thanks.
Emmings; Thank yolr . Anybody else?
Charlotte Morrison: My name's Charlotte Morrison. I Iive in the PioneerHills area and I just want to tell you that I'm happy that you're changingLhis and I think in lhe long run it wiII be beneficial to us and I knowthat thinge can be put on these lots h,ithout getting permission for it that
might be detrimenLal to neighborhoods and I just ulanted you to know f'm
happv .
Blair Bury: My name is Blair Bury. I have a 1o! in Timberwood and my
concern also is the possible tax increase - I have to agree ue have plenty
of taxes now and I really don't appreciate any more if we don't need it. Ithink the limitations are reasonable that are on there now and I thinkthat's er,,erybocly's concern is 9oin9 to be the tax. change. f agree.They're going to have to go up but I think the mil rate should sLayconstanl if we can.
9unil Chojar: M)'EslaLes. IL 's onto impact the lar
Suni I Chojar .at this stage.that is already
nalrre IS
ly a lotge size
I have a lot in Timberwood
My question is, how is it going
existing here? Can they t,e
PIannin.J Conrmj.ssion Meet i ng
August 27, 799L - Page 8
Aanengon; It's the same minimum
The same setback requirements in
size. Same setbacks. 2 L/2 acYes.
zones,
furth:r :ut,iivrdecl or what's going to be the effect of A-2 to RR with our
sizes?
lot
boL h
Emm i ngs: Okay .
beth,een the A-2
So orr items
and the RR?
Sunil Chojar: So the size
S,uni I Chojar : Thank you .
Emmlng3: lne srze Is golng
you're mentioning, there's no difference
is going to stay the same?
to stay the same.
Dorr Flall.a: Gc,c,d everring ladies and gentlemen. f 'm Don HaIla' f 'm
concerntrj al-rr:u1 .1lrnnes that would affect the nursery business. If you
read my letter, yc,u j.rrcorrectly read or staled what I said in the letter,
Our in'"cnlion was to stay in the nursery business in this area and nct to
L,e fori:d '.-o =ubclivi.Je . But in fact I was forced to go inLo 21/2 acre
lots bec,:use I haC jr-.rst purchased the proPertv from my brother. Taking
into corrsiderar, ic,n the cosL and Lhe value of the land r.riLh the anticitration
th.rt it r.roulcl remain aL 21/2 acYe lot sizes. Then it was determined that
it was ch;nged to 1 lo! per 10 acres. In order io Preserve the value c,f my
Ian.l an.j rr,:t lose 3/4 of it, I was forced to come in with a subdivision for
2 7/2 z.ye.. - ft urag not something I bJanted to-do. It was something that
was forceC upon rne by economics by a purchase that had just been done and
then a charrgc= in zc,ning ordinances had put me in a box. tJe have tried and
I asireJ pelmis,:iorr to drag my feet as much as possible. I Lhink you know
that, so I lruld rerrain in the rrursery business. [,Je have met a]I the rules
and rsguI.;',ions. tle have given up pl-opel-ty for road easements, etc.. Ne
have {.hree, lc,ts that have been subdivided and when you talk about'Green
frCT-6s r.r? r^r.irc back charsed in Green Acres Prior to the subdivision even
going in, Prior to t,he 2 1/2 acre loLs haPPening and that was done because
it wa: de i-e,rrnined the! r^r e were going Lo do it in the future so we would
lose our Green Acres advantage of those areas and hre Nere charged at
regular lot valucs. Supposedly January 1 when the subdivision takes Place,you're supposecl to be appraised on January 1. l.,le actually had it signed by
the city sometime I believe in February or Harch. It uasn't registered
until that time. Our land values actually urere ]ooked at and the Green
Acres removed as of January 1 because they anticipated us doing it sometime
this year r,rhich is incorrec! but iL uas done and nobody's reversed iL and
we're pa)'ing Lax€s on the higher rate. So how that preserves Green Acres
for other people and how it would be involving them, I don't know. It did
adversely affect me personally. As far as the inLention of subdividing and
so forth and continuing with the project, I only h,ant to do so as rapidly
as you folks force me to do so. ft is my intention, as I have said right
along, to stay in the nursery business. Mairrlain. probably at Least 1o
acres or 12 acres for my nursery operation in the center core of this: Any
char,g.ing frca: A-2 to RR could adversely affect my ability to Put uP
building:r and so forth thaL ar-e needed to oPerate in the agricultural
method that He have been operaling on. h,e still would continue to gror^,
plant material. tJe still have those plans on doing so. I am onlv doing
the sulrdivision and I wilI onLy do lhe subdivision in order to preserve the
PI a r,r, i r, -, Cc.ma:i,:sion M{reting
Au3irs,t 27, 7991 - Page 9
value of m), p)-operty. Based upon putting myself in the bcx of having paid
Hay Loo much for the pr-operty if aII I'm able to get is l lot in 10. Andthat's, I:hjnk lhe ]etter is self explanatory. Even now h,e have reallygrowing on almost ? L/2 of Lhe 3 acres area is still in agricultural. It'sstill in trees, shurbs and evergreens. t^le still harvest it. !.le have Iostthe Green Acres on those two lots Lhat are still being used foragricultural purposes, even though they are right attached to the rest ofthe nursery and are being used for agricultural purposes- I think RR
changing would prq,bably make this even worse. I don't knou - I don't knowthe exact ranifications of that but if it's already happened under A-2, Icertainly think it would get worse under RR. So I would prefer to keep itthe way it is and of course at this point Lhere's nobody else Iiving therethat it affects except ore person and that's Mark HalIa. Hell actually
tr^ro - Davc H.a11a r^rould also be in that area. Any questions?
to stay around? They may have queslions for youEnrrrri ng:. ; F)r e yotl goi ng
Iater, Yr.s =ir'-
Mark l-ialle: My rrame ie Mark Halla and f'm currently the only resjdent at
Greaf, PI;in,. GoIf EsLate.. I ob,n the one lot- 16"1r is sold and Don does
haric a pc.i nt +-hat it's currently being used for rnainly nursery use- Theother tuc 1.13 tha'. have been subdivided are 1OOZ nursery use at Lhis time.Of course as €v.ryone else is. concerned about taxes, l am as well. There's
no necrl tcr 3eL them any higher than they have been arrd tre're a]l hoping tokeep thern as I or.; as possible for as Iong as possible. I also have concernsthat I Nnnt- tc stay in thc nursery business as urelI. It's been a family
operatior.r for a )ong time. tJe've beerr here from the tirne the City started.Basic:lIy a township tc a city. [,le've helped employ quite a few ciLizens.
t.le Lasic:ally are a sanctuary in ourselves. t^le've got the naturalboundarics. As has been pointed out, bre gror^, the trees. Basically it
seems to nie Lhat we 're an idea) thing .for a city to have. A workingnurs.,ry is open space that you didn'! have to take from a developer. ycu
didrr't hE;ve to fight for it. Jt seems to me you'd want to preserve it asIong as possiblt:. f don't personally believe that's going to continue if
Ne corvErt to Rti. [,Je have enough problems as it is under A-2 and forced tosubrlivide as Don has pointed ouL. Some of the things don't seem right. It
seerns }ike we're growing a method that in a sense doesn't make a IoL ofsense. Growth is importanL but I think it needs Lo be a Iittle bit betterplanned arrd organized and each individual area needs to be evaluatedseparately as an individual area. tle'd like to maintain our nursery
operat jon. l.,le Lhink it's a plus f or the city of Chanhassen but obviously
we can't do that if r,.:e're no! alloured to put up a truck building if we needto sLore our equipment ancl keep it maintain...increase rapidly because outin the treather things age quicker. CerLainly you understand that. Youwouldn't Nant to park your car outside in the winter if you didn't have to.
The same thing wiLh us. tJe need to have the ability to do that. Ue don'L
need to pa>, the extra taxes and I guess the change in time is a good one
and I'm all for it buL it needs to be done at the. end of it all. onceeverythj rrg j: deveLoped. I don't reaIIy think that in this city I thinkthings arr watched carefully enough- There isn't going to be a problem
with someone. coming in and doing something that you really didn't want tobe dona that was Lhat big a problem. Little things may come through - I
may put up a shed on my prcrpe.rty that my neighbor doesn't ]ike. It's not a
major- ,Je. I:rnd in Lime thai can be changed by thr.- City ordinances but f
Planrri ng Commission Meet i ng
Augu3t ?1 , !997 - Page 10
don't trel ieve to change it ahead of Lime is the right move. I thj.nk once
lhe areas are rnore developed that it might make more sense. Unless you're
going to point out separate places end areas and say okay, these are exemPt
from these changes and that may be something you ulant to look into as
well. That's where I stand,
Emmings: okay, thank you. I'd like to ask the staff if there's a reason
maybe to distinquish Great Plains GoIf EsLates from the rest of them Lhat
are Iisted here on the basis that we've got an oPeration going on thaL
property which is the nursery operation going there whereas in the rest of
these we've mostly got a ]ot of houses or just land sitting emPty waiting
for houses to come urithout agriculLural use. I think they might have a
point abc,ut L,eing able to erect buildings for their oPeration' So is there
somc kind of a basis here for distinquishing Great Plains GoIf Estates from
the rest c,f these?
Krauss: uJ. ll creat Plains Golf EstaLes
foi th: rLr,:r-t I'.-irt it doesn't- exist yet.is different from the rest in that
It's only been preliminary
f er^t
three
Krauss: It could conceiveably. You know it was our intent in Putting it
in wit-h the res*. of the subdivisions h,asn't any Part of a grand conspiracy.
It uas thr: fact that it was a ruraL subdivision much as the wa/ the others
were. If thcre's some desire to keep it out of that designation until
additional subdivision occurs or if it occul-s in that time period as been
ol,ayecl L,;' t l-re. Council, that's f ine with us, Ne have no secret or otherwise
agend:. l,la did go to the poinL of contacLing orlin and we've done in the
past, I think you're aware we had him testify at the Comprehensive Plan on
somi- reI,3ted, sirnilar types of issues. He confirmed for us that this in
and of iLsclf will noL raise taxes. of course orlin would always then say
the taxe: orc aluays going to 9o up as proPerty values-.. If it would put
people's'. minds at ease, we could have him at your next meeting or the City
Counci I nrecting or get something from him in tlriting.
Erhart: Can I ask a question?
Emmings: Yeah.
Erhart: [.]he:n's a subdivision a subd.ivision?
Krauss: t^,leIl , that's real dif f icult to say on the HaIIa's request.
process does it become a?Erhart: f mean at what point in the
Krauss: tlell it's been final platted. t,e accepted the final plat a
months ago which platted most of it into outlots and knocked off the
lots alorrg the road inLo the golf course.
Erhart: f'm referring to the either
Olsen: They're an ouLloL. They've
20 or 30 lots.
been plalteci as an outlot.
Emrnjrres: pnd jr-'s in active use which this change m,ight affect.
Plannin? Commission Meet i ng
AuguE.l- ?7 , 7997 - Page 11
Don HaIIa: tl€ only platLed 3 out of 35 .
real ly isn't aErhart: 9o real.Iy HaIla Nursery subdivision as yet?
Emmings: l,JeII there's been a plat that's been approved and filed
a subdivisjon plat so I think it is a subdivision. That'd be myyou k nor.r?
and it
9UeSS .
is
Do
Ahi-err:: It is if it's a f inal pLat.
Emmings: That makes sense to me but it's still, it feels like it'sdifferent to me, and I jusL wonder if that, do you think that the factualdifference that Ne've been talkins about here would be a reasonable basis
f or cJi s,t i;rr:;rr i shi rrg t hat one f rom the rest of these?
Krauss: I Lhink sc, I mean clearly aII the others
devel oped or becoming so, And it would be probably
HalIa in it's current state until or if Lhey decideful I s.uL,Ci\,,ision.
are either
reasonable
to pr oceed
fuI Iy
to Leave the
t"rith the
Erhartl I think lhis is a real good ordinance. I think from urhat I
untjcr:+,::n,J th: purpose was Lo protect those people Hho are in rural
Emminge: Okay. fs there anybodyhere. fs there anybody else here
Erhart moved, Ahrens seconded
favor ancl the moLion carried.
s,ut,Ci vi s.i on: .HaIla'': irrr-o t
so- IhF arr lv
I t- r =.'. ?
Erhart: It's a bunch of 1subdivision. t^lhy wouldn 'twell.
else? The public hearing's still openthat wanLs to speak on this?
to close the public hearing - AII voted in
The public hearing tlas closed.
also think it doesn't make really any sense to throwft doesn't eerve the purpose we're setting out to doI hacl j.s I thjnk we miseed a couple, tjhat is Nest 96th
5c: Ihi: .
t lri rrg
Kraus:: 'Io the b,est of my kncrwledge that's a condition that pre-dated
anything.
and2and5acre
u,e throw Lhat i n
Iots all essentially
here? Protect those
rn aIots as
Krauss: Conceiveably you could although if lhe HaIIa's character argument
has some validity. t^,est 95th Street area is a little bit different than
most af the rural subdivision that we have, They're J.arger lots to thebest of my knor.rledge. I know there's a number of people Lhat keep a lot ofhorses out there. t^Je can include it.
Erhart:
and thc.
Sorne are 1 acre. One side of the road they're a].most all 1 acre
c,thcr s-iclt the 2'rc.
Kraus:: Tlrey're pioneers.
Erhart: I just assumed that we would include that since i!'s basically the
same average density as all the rest of them. I suppose ue haven'tnotifjed them. f guess my point would be, I guess I assumed that they
PIannin3 Conrmission Heet i ng
August ?\, 7991 - Page 12
r^rould be incluCed. I would suggest Lhat ure table it until we notifv them.
Unless we can find if they have some objection because I think it's the
same character. In fact along the street it's actually much higher
density. The tot widLh is only 150 feet there. For all Lhe other ones
it's at least 18o or 2OO so in a sense it's actually more dense ' Those are
my comments.
Conrad: I like the ordinance. It makes sense. It protects Peop1e who are
moving into large lots. I agree ulith leaving the Great Plains Golf Estates
out of thjs. ft's a different animal altogether at lhis Point in time. I
don't know what triggers bringing it under. Back into this ordinance.
Somebody has to tell me when that occurs and I guess I'm still interested
in the tax. Don said he's seen the tax. The implications of thi.s and bv
no means was this intended to change tax rates. It's intended to Protectpeople. People Lhat are moving in and the People that QanL to experience
the :-ur-al area an:l LhaL's wh;' we're doing this- I'm sure Lhere are better
ways to make rnoney. 5o I guess I'd like to see the Assessor at the City
Council rreeling and talk to the CiLy Council about the implications of this
when this comes to their table. That's all.
Emmings: On Laclcl's question xhen this question might arise. Assunring
GreaL Plains GoIf Estates were left out. The question is then when wiII we
recon::idcr rezonirrg it RR? And now whenever they want to develoP
something, they're going to be bringing in an outlot with a plat right Lo
subdivide iL inLo lots and we'd have an oPPortunity lo consider the
question al, that point. Uould that be right? Okay. ' Annette?
Ellscr,: I thinl: it makes sense, I don't know that we communicate enough
to th:- people r.rhat we're motivated behind here. I know that I remernber
Llrint:ins if I Iivcd .irr Timberwood I wouldn't urant a mobile home moving in
riglrL nevt to nre and right nou it could and I couldn't do anything abouL
it. An,J I rright have a e 25O,OOO.OO house and there's a nice mobile home
sitting there. And He were looking at it from Lhe standPoint Lhat a lot of
peopie are aut there trying to be spread out and trying to have homes and
it's not s.-:t up to protect homeouners. That's why I aPPreciated Charlotte
nrent joni rrg t i-,at. t^Je did a bad iob of communicating our inLentions I '.hink
maybe in that ]etter so. As far as the qualification for Green Acres and
Lhings like that, f agree with Ladd and Tim and everybody that what we need
to do is bring in the County since we're getting two different PeoPIe's
reF,or+-s and I'm not doubting every person believes what they heard was
right. You know David heard from one Person and we heard from another as
far as the City so let's get him in here and find out. Like Mark was
talking about. maybe it's not, it's based on the same, whaL they're basing
the tax on is the same. tJe won't be able Lo promise Lhat rural residential
versus A-2 wiII never rise next year but they should always be based on the
same thing. So if one rose so would the other anyway but- tlhen we did
this r^re thought boy, there's a Iot of PeoPIe out there Lhat could have some
nasty things comirrg right behind their backvard and they wouldn't have
anything to say about it and ue couldn't stoP it. fL doesn't matter Lhai
it comes f orurard and ue don'l like it. The ]aw would a]Iow those peoPle to
have that and we couldn't do anything about it so ure had good intentions.
And f agree with the nursery but I also think that somehow it has to
trig.Jer going back inLo it if it's no Longer used for LhaL Purpose.
Not hi ng rrew f guess .
Pl anni ng Comnrission HeeLing
August ?1 , 7997 - Page 13
Batzli: f agree entirely with Lacid's comments and I also agree with Tim
that if Lhere are additional areas in the city that fit into this kind of a
mold, that we should take a ]ook at them and I would love to be at the
Council meeting to hear the Assessor tell the HaIIa's why they ulere
apparently treated somewhat differently.
Farmakes: I think it's a good piece of city ordinance. PeoPIe deserve
proteclion when they lTrove irrto that tyPe of situalion. I think one
person's dream may be another Person's nightmare. tlhen you exercise or
conre and say that, we've seen this before that if you buy a Piece of
property or if you've been here for many years, you should have a special
right tc uliiize that property. That goes to a certain Point' ThaL's why
they h.r,.,e grandfathered. But it also stoPs at a certain point. If
sorrebc,dy. purch:ises thig proPerLy, I think they have the right to some
protection undcr zoning. And the issue of the taxes, I'd agree. f myself
have prcbler5 6t *. he Coun'-y leve] getting a straigh! story sometimes and
that woul.l be great if thc>' came to the Citv Council meeting and respond to
thaL is:r-re. I dan't have any further comments.
Ahrerr::: l^lhe|- about this lett-er from MarIin Edwards? Did you get a copv of
that?
Ernning:-; Ol-.at. Brian?
Aanenson: I don't think
t her e?
growlng croPS
sayi ng thaL he
so. I think he's just
exists. I think he's
on iL.
would wa nt to
Aanenson: Yec. H(, sent i! to me.
Ahrens: L t-his, uhere is this?
Aanen-.c,rr: The subdivision?
Ahre ;r:.: l.l.], 1 nresn.
Aanerr.crr : It's Surrridge Addition.
Ahr-?n-= r Ch , thal-'s in Sunr idse?
Aanenson: Yes. He has a 10 acre lot.
Ahrens; It says he has an agricultural business?
Aanenson: He's using it as agriculturaL. He doesn't
anything. It's a 10 acre lot, He has 10 acres that
agriculturally.
Ahrens: 5o he has a wholesale nursery going on
hav e
he 's
a home or
using
Olse rr: I cic,n't think it.
do that- .
Ahrens; He calls it his inlensive agricultural business of breeding new
variel-ies of vegetables and fruiL trees.
Plan:: jti3 Cnrr:;ir.': ior l.1i;t,in3
frt-!.t-+ ?1 , 1.'.1 - tr..S. 14
H. wr)1'l,,s at Green Giant , yes .
OicJ t'ou Yead this?
Yeah.
Ahr ens:
Batzl i :
Ahrens: I guess if we're going to consider special uses for a special
category f o:- Great Plains GoIf EsLates, if other subdivisions have active
commercial. nurseries on their property, maybe we should exempt lhem too.
Ernmings: I think Lhe difference here is, I'm not sure buL I thi.nk thedifference is, HaIIa's have basically their entire property in a largeoperation. This guy's got one Iot in one subdivision that he says he's gol
an intensivri agricultural business. I don't think that",,
cont i rrue r.Lh";t h
ever),br,d;, cls:;
can J continu6
Erniiljng:: i,J- ll
it. Tl'r: isi:'!
Kraus:s:is heIC
anomaly. He was concerned that he would be able to
doing to the property because he's different thanthe subdivision and he uras saying, you know if Lhis gets,
r-rse this? Are my rreighbors goi n9 to be concerned?
Erir.i".-. ',i: tl,: an.jr.Jer is yes l-re can. Correct?
Ahrerr:: !o hi:: cDncerns are unfounded?
IN
Lo
c,onc€'rns aren't unfounded but this isn't going to hurting t-o affect him in any negative way. I don't think.
Ahre r,:: i,-;ll. l'lrr gr-i ng to recorrnrau,:j approvaL cf this zoning changa Loc
be,cau:r: I t l,inl., it's a good idea wiLh the exception of, wi.th excepting out
6rea+- f laiir: (c'lf E.Lates for the reaE,cjrr:i everybody else has said. I lhink
th,tr.'3 ; 1,:+-, ,:f rnisinfolmation about t,he tayes i:nd I thirrk it would ba
goocj f ..r- -'.'cr-,, i:.:,:i. +. c, shc,L-r up if OrIirr Schafe:' does show up at the City
Council ma..',in.j.. .sor'rc anSwer: out of hinr-
Emming:,: Ctka>'. Ancl I don't have anything new. I think i!'s a good thingto do. I think the tax question has to be answered and I Lhink tha! can be
done at the City Council. The only question that's come up is whether we
ought to table it to be sure ue've included aII the subdivisions that oughtto be included or should Ne send it along and amend it ]ater. I guess Idon't knor.r.
Conrad: CiLy Counci.I can open it up for public hearing can't they?
Krauss: TheT general ly do-
Conrard: Yeah. So we could lable it here and bring it back or we could
vote orr ii and senC it along to Lhe City Council r^,ith the fact that.
I should add t.hough the official ,by you so Ee could not add another
the legislative public hearing
subdivision -
Con:-E.J: Cc,ulclr,'t?
Aanc n:l,rr : Right- .
fJ.a n,rin 3 Cir.r, j.e :ion l,leeting
Aug-r5t ?1 , i9c1 - Page 15
Kraus,s: L,,ll could rrot. That would have to c'ome back through you.
E;rr,i rr.;,:'-: f i,ion(Jei' if , do we Lhink it's iust one?
Olsen: Yeah. I don't think you realIy have much else down there. It'sjust in lh: A-2 district and I don't know of any other ones like Tim's.
Emnri ns;:: !'iy only lhought would be that if we move it al"ong having a public
hearing fol one we're adding is not going to take tha! Long and He won't
have to renc,tify everybody that's here. That's my onlv though! Tim.
Erhart-: 9,r youl' recomrnendaLion would be what?
Emr,ri ngs: You ca n do what you want .
Erl:.rrt: I lil;r'i fclIcL.L yoi, -
Errrnings: LJj]l iL L,e quicker for us or will it take Iees time for us to
r,lov 'r it- e J.c,n3 nci: an,j jus+ have a public hearing later on Lhe individual
one r.Je'Te con:,i.cie r i ng addirrg? otherwise we're going to have to renc,tify
cuF_ir ) L,. r.,I .
Er hart : ue' cc,uld d'o
You
that?
could
frl-,a:'.:
Conra,J:
:,.,] ,.
-t :-.
,..,.: U t.Jer nL
c ho i c'c-. .
always l'ezone pi-operLy al- any time -
Lhe motic,n to be then?
YgL,r
Er harl ;
bac k?
Errl i r:.. :
.llUr'- ,.' -
I th.i nli those
Lhen later on
6re our choices.if we want to add
y,oLr're =aying !.re move to approve it and lhen that comes
Either we table it or we
something, Hc can alurays.
nr:ri,e it
Erhart: How long is it going to take to discuss this the next time around?If I move th;t we Ieave the Great Plains colf Estates out, is it going t.otake that rruch time on anothey Planning Commission meeting?
Conrad; 5hou l dn 't .
Emmirrgl: Don'L know-
that one. I'II move Lo table the ordinance at whichadditional subdivisions and ask that creat PIains Gclf
fronn the proposed ordinance at that Lime.
Emi!in?,'.: AlriSht, js there any cliscussion?
Er hart:
time we
Est 6 t, €9,
Corrr ad :
that are
Let rne !r y
can r-eview
t,e r emoved
Yeah. I
tracking
Batz I i : gecond,
just wouLd want to make sure Lhat those
Lhe iterir, ahd 1 'm sure the Halla's r"riII
that arc here
fol lc,t^r it buL
PIanr,i n.; Ccr,inisg,iori MeeLi ng
Augu: r- ?! , f 99f - Pa 3e 16
wh,:n we +-ab]e it and bring it back, it's a Nay that people lose
where ii is in the prccess of moving it up tc the City Council.ther€ an cffjcial mechanism of making sure that these folks areother than Lhe city paper, when it goes to the City Council?
Aanenson: If 'ycru blant us
couple hundred people.to renotify everyboCy, we can do that? There's a
Erhart: Oka,--, so if r^J e
r,r; notifi-^j ag.:in?
table it tonighL we have to notify everybody that
Ahrens: Do we have to renotify?
sight of
aurare,
Aanenson: He': asking us Lo track it thaL uJay.
out tf '-: L'c !,. YcJ'v€
Er l-. i l- : li ),oir ir.],":
wc 've cl: i. -
LlIl'lItll.,
but again iL's one of those things that keeps peoplegot to be kind of diligent.
a continuation of a public hearing, that's somethins
.J(r€:-: evi ryone have to be notif ied then?
Errnir3:: N., he ': :.ayi ng if we table it and just conLinue
hear i r,_.7 ti th', ney.t timc it comes up on our agenda, do you
er,,erybc,,j.,' LhaI- r.r-:,: rrrLif ieci fbr Lhis nneet ing?
the publ ic
have to renot ify
Ki.iu:: : tl-i I !r. prc:b:["ily r^rould be because Lhe notice that we senl:
told theni th;:t j.t rJ.',Lrli: b F., aL the Council on an appropriate dat-e.
n,r.: Li-,.:' r.:.,r-,.- -- thin3. tje don't ob jecL to doins it.
t hern
Emmings: Nc, we're just asking what happens.
Conrad: So r,rhen ule reopen Lhe public hearing, we have Lo recommunicate to
everi'body. Big dearl . And then when it goes to the City Council, people
r,roulC be aware of iL only through our official paper. I guess they're
nrotivated enough to track it that r,ray. That always bothers me. t,hen Ne
sen.l al.ong here to City Council, they know t",hat day it's going but that's
maybe a ni nor issue
Erhart: This here doesn't L,c,ther me about it too much L,ecause a ]ot clf
tiine; i.;:'11 i-rlk abouL zoning changes, we generally have two public
i-c:r:r,--: ar>vit,) I L,elieve. t^,,e commorrly have had two public hearing:. Got
E rnr: i. ngs :A1right, any
f or go'- uh;'-El I::r : i
other discussion on the motion?
it is.
FIannir,g Conrnrissiorr Meet i n9
August 27 , 7997 - Page !7
Emnri ngs: To tabl e .
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to table the Rezoning *91-9 for property
zoned A-2 to RR for staff to review any additional subdivisions and to
remove Great Plains GoIf Estates- All voted in favor excePt Emmings l.tho
opposed and the motion carried 6 to 1-
conrad: so it's going to be Lab]ed everybody that's here. Be brought back
for one other subdivision and I guess the message is, you'II get a message
about it but to track, to watch for it in the City PaPer so you know when
it goes to Lhe City Council.
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZON I NG ORDINANCE AHENDHENT TO CREATE A BL UFF LINE PRESERVATION SECTfQN TO
THE CrTY_ COOE=
Publ ic Pr esent :
Addr essName
l'la ncy L e../PaL Blooci
Jini Sulerud
AT I I- UAO
V{.:Y rre :,eveI so rr
Jane A. Pou I os
David l'1 - Fiarl la
Bjorg & Jer rY Hendrickson
Don E . Ha I.l. a
Mar k HalIa
1o5oo Great Plains BIvd .
73o Vogelsberg Trail
6545 Cherokee Trail, Eden Prairie
675 Lakota Lane
Lot *12, Deer br oo k
1OO95 Great PIains BIvd.
9OO Homestead Lane
10,ooo Great Plains BIvd.
770 cree kwood
J c-, i',rrn Olserr presented Lhe staf f rePort on this item ' Chairman Emmings
called ttre puL:Iic hearing to order.
Ari Fuad: Mv name is Ari Fuad- I obrn a loL in Hesse Farm Addition' The
we=t sicle. I think it's Lhe Iast Iot on the bluff in that subdivision ' AII
the rest have houses orr them already so I'm the only one who's really
affecLed bv this. I think one reason, I bought the Iot a year ago and one
reason it hasn't Oeen-Jeveloped yet is because the obvious site by the road
is, though it's on the bluff it doesn't have any view of the vallev because
oi'tr"ru-immediale1y between that site and the bluff and I don't know what
IimiLed clearing means but there's some substantial trees there - Unless
yo, ""n cut down a lot of big oak trees which I wouldn't b,ant to do anvwav,
vo, .ort.fn't apPreciate or you don't get any benefit from that site' This
property is 11 acres and it runs doun Lhe whole ]ength of the bluff. AIl
Lh" ,.y down to a railroad bed which has just been taken out and
perpendicular or running Lhe length of the tot is a ridge. tlhen I boushL
the property a yeay ago I ualked down there. This is aclually an existing
road that maybe Hesse may have Put in sometime or somebody Put in manv
yearsag(]thatrunsdownthisridge.TheaLtractionofthelottomeu.,as
another-potent ial site and Jo Ann went and looked at it and said what this
ordinance is tryins to do ulas Prevent development of such sites within the
L,Iuf f . The site may not actuaily be buildable if it's indeed a sandv soil
lf,er" t6orr;h I believe, from the evidence, walking down this roadbed where
PI anni ng Commission Meeting
August 27, 799! - Page 18
1there's very lit.tie erosion on either side, that I think this site is I
buildeble. I haven't done any soil testing yet. I didn,t buy the lot so Icould L,uild right between two neighbors. Maybe 50 from each side of the -t'house- r wanted t.o buiLd on this other site down the bluff. r feel that ithis ordinance is discriminatory Lo me uniquery. There may be others in mycircumstance just because there aren't any other lots in this subdivision. -Haybe in some of the other subdivisions that haven,t already been Ideveloped. I pay a Iot of money for this lot. probably more than I should I
have but I reallv love the bluff. The basic intent of this ordinance rmin agreemenL. r wourdn't uJant Lo see damage done to the bluff. At the ''l
same time, this is an 11 acre site and r feel that within limits r have to Ibe able to put a house on a buildable site on Lhis lot and a house doesn,ttake up that much space. rt takes up maybe a quarter acre or harf an acre. -That's the area that's impacLed. The rest wourd be left natural . N;*-i --
|think as an alternative, and II keep this same, r like the loi sii". -ro
be 10 acres or greater but I think this is penalizing those people ulhohaven't rusherj c,uL there or haven't built in a hurry and r thini the intent Icould possiblv be achieved for such sites through more normal permitting- - I
process. r'm not fanriLiar with how permits are achieved or gotten inchanhassen but r knotr if vou ask for a required comprehensive soil test -lnear the L,Iuff . r think vou could probably find some sites where-vou-c"ura iput a house closer than 30 feet. For example your house, he said his houseuas within 5 feet ancl he has no probrem- r think arso uriLh regards to -erosion vou could also have sLrict requirements to put in erosion control ldevices and stuff that urould limit the damage to the surrounding bluff. rhave built a house before and r know how much ripping and ioarinsconsLruction activitv does to a ]ot. But if there ii a site ta;i'= '''lbuildable, I'd rather see the restrictions be pl.aced i".t U."JrIJ,-not I
because of adjacencv t9 a bluff or because of a certain soir conditionsthat r,rould rneke it likelv that a house there would farl off the bluff for -iexample. I guess that,s all I have to say, I,d ).ike you t"-i.k.-ry jopinions into consideration when you consider thi.s ordinance. rhank you.
Conrad: Just a quick question while you,re up there.thal 30 feeL seLback so detrimental? That,s the sizehere. Nhat dc,es LhaL clo?
In your mi ndof this space
whv is
r i sht
Ari Fuad: rn my parL j.cular circumstance, r went out there with a tapemeasurer and because of this road going down one side of ih" urrrr, i.".nthis existins road is in the bruff its;lf and it is cui into part of thisridge- so do r measure from the edse of Lhe road "r;; i;; down to theother side of the road which is some mavbe 15 feet beiow-.iin., place. Butr went out and measured Lhe width that. r'd have to build on and r didn'thave a survevor go out and say this is your lot line on this side but myestimate is r might have 1oo feet with a loose restriciion-ot th.ordinance, t"tith a rea]Iy tight restriclj.on I might "niv-t.". 70 feet ofrerativelv flat area on top of the ridge. Now r shourd mention that oneside of the ridge slopes off much more gent).y and Lhat,s trr" side which myProperlv line runs down. so r don't know what the setbacli,- is it 10 feeLor 15 feet fronr the propert). Iine in Chanhassen?
Emmings: If it's a side lot, it,s 10-
PIanni ng Commission Meeti ng
August ?1 , 7991 - Page 19
Ari Fuaci : 10 feet sc, if I have 70 feet, i.f I have to be 1O feet from
there, then that leaves me 60 feet which then gives me' if I go 30 back
feet, I only have 30 feet in which to put a house which is Pretty narrow.
That,s using the narrow interpretaLion. If I consider the whole, go down
to the edge of the road bed maybe 1oo feet, then I'm dealing Nith 50 feet
which is possibly workable. But r.rhen I bought Lhe lot I acLually walked it
with arr engineer and we talked about how ule could excavate this area dor^rn
to this roadbed. Have it more flatted the top and I could see where you
wouldn,t want me to just dump aII Lhe dirt off the edge of the bluff and I
would certainty think it reasonable to haul a Lot of that fiII awav. Then
you,d ha\,e a building siLe that could be apProaching 1oo feet in width.
ih"n you take 30 feet off and you've still got 60 feet, 60-70 feet which is
pleniy of room to Put a house on- BuL if I have to take'
Emmings: Let me inLerrupt because r know it's clear in your mind these
clistanc,es and everylhing but at leasl for me f'm real Iost for these. But
if his Lor-, let's say his lot, the ordinance was in Place and ue went out
there ancl everybody determines that there's no Place on this lot that he
can bui lci a house.
Ar i Fuacl : Ther e, is
Emrnings.: o!.,J), 5,;
L_lls(,n: lnere's. a
Ar i Fuacj i Jt- 's lrot
or di r,at-) i t,t .
a place though.
you say there is a Place.
place thaL would meet it but it's not.
the place I want it. It's a place that makes iL a verv
Emmi ngE. :
var- iance
But if Lhere were no place to build, then he could apPlv for a
could he not?
Ari Fuad: But Lhere is
Emmings: BuL there is a
olsen: Right.
a place.
place, it's iust not desireable.
the Lot is greatly
what I paid for it
Emmi ngs: I undersLand.
Ari Fuacl: And r think the value of
I would argue that it might be half
house on that one site.
dinri nished . rn fact
if you had to put a
Conrad: Ooes everybody understand urhat the situation is?
Emmings: In general Lerms. tlhen he starts talking about 60 or
don't have any idea what he's talking about- But I think what
is there's a place he can PuL, the important part is there's a
put his house. It isn't the best place on Lhe lot or where he
his house and lhis ordinance wiII prevent lrim from putting his
he r.Jants -
75 feel , I
he 's say i ngplace he can
dants to put
house wher e
Planning Commission Heet i ng
August ?7, f997 - Page 20
Ari Fuad: Ancl it misht
any other purchaser- whothat's rrot a small Iot.
reduce the value of the
would be constrained toIt's 11 acres.
property to
foIIor^r this both myself and
ordinance and
Farmakes: Can I ask a question?
Ari Fuaci: 5ure.
Farma kes i Youpart of the lot
yor-r d j dn 't do
bu i ldab le?
sa-id any soil testing. Are you sure that that 1
Ari Fuad: No f'm not but this ordinance might even preclude me from doingthe soil testing because in order to do the soil testing I,ve got to put acat dowrr there to clear out an area for the truck Lo get down there to dothe soil testing, And I've a whole big guesLion of how do I even go aboutapplyirrg f c,i- a variance to put a house there? Because I do the soiltesting anj then do I have to spend $3,OOO.OO or !E4,OOO.OO to get abuilding plarr for the site the r^ray I'd want it and then apply for avariance and lhen have it turned down where I'd lose my investment and thenhave to cc,rre up with a new plan for the other site if I decided to buildthere?
EIIson: Nci,
wilh it.
you're talking at the right time. The righL time to come forth
Ari Fuad: And a]so, I like the intent of the ordinance. I like Lhe bluffbut as on.: of thc-: IasL lots in this particular subdivision, and I can'tspeak tt, any of t.he otlrer ones that's on the bluff, I'm really the only onebeing impacted. I dc.rr 't think there's anyone else from Hesse Farm there
because' the rest of the loLs that haven't developed there aren't on thebluff" Tlicy're up on the flat area and you can put a house anywhere on
t hose .1 ot= .
Emm! rrgs i O!.-.a),. Thank you. Anybody else?
Davicl H.rlla: I agj-ee with the gentleman talking about the impact in
decreasirrg his value on not allowing him Lo put his home where it affordshim Lhe moet view of the bluff. That's what he bousht it for. I think youpeople have to look at some of these things in a little broader perspective
instead of taking Lhe narrow view and categorically saying this rulesapplies for everybody. Now. r,lhen I built my house, soing back to thatagain, I had a D5 cat in there and it Look them 3 days to dig the basement.Uhy? Becatrse that was virgin ground. Never been touched. He couldn'teven push thal dirt. It just kind of rolled up in front of the cutlingedge because it was that hard. t,e knew Lhat we ureren't going to have aproblem uriLh erosion but to prevent that ure seeded croun vetch on top ofthe grass cover that was on the bank and that has literally taken over andjust covered that whole bank. There's no way that can erode. Even whenyou're talking abcrut the water runoff, sheets of water running off a roof.WeII, I've got a deck on the back but water runs bn my deck and isdispersed even before iL hits lhe ground. So I think you have to use aIittIe corflrron sense on some of these Lhings and can't say categoricallywe're accepting one rule that applies for each ancj every ]ot because itdoesn't- Now I've got two other IoLs Lhere, or at least one other that
Planni ng Comrr i s:;ion Meeting
Auguet ?1 , 7991 - Page 27
f oolis c,ver the bluff. f would assume that in the future, if whomever buysthal wants to subdivide it and let someone build a lot there, they should
L,e allowed at least to remove some of the bi.g trees that are right on the
edge so iL afl"ords them a view- In Lhe beginning on thi.s ordinance trhen it
first came out and I got this letter i.L said they were restricting the
cleaiins o1' Lhe trees there so they can't have a good view. t^lel], if you
do thaL, that's again decreasing the value of the ]ot because why dicl they
buy it in the first place? They bought it to have the vier^r. Now u,hen you
say that it's got to be back 30 feet, that doesn't apply. They could amend
this and say hey, if you hlant to put it less than 30 feet, you have to meet
certajn requiremenLs of soil tesLs. You can't put it on obviously sandy
soil because that's not going to suPPort it. Houever, they can do that too
if the>' wanted iL hard enough or bad enough, you could pilings down there
and support thaL house on pilings, There's anoLher way of doing that too.
So I don't Lhirrk you can come in here in a broad sense and say hey, it'sgot Lr,l ba 3o feet. That's it. t,le're drawing the line in the sand. Anybody
that walks over it, we're going to blow them out of the water. This
gentlenran has a very good argument - You knou he boughL his lot for the
view. lf he's rrct ailowed to take advantage of that view, it decreases the
value of hi= IoL and he spent good money on it. The same r^ray trith the lot
that I'r.e got in the fuLure Lhere. Somebody's going to want to take
advantage of thaL view of the bluff. If they say it's goL to be back 3O
feet, it Cecreases the value of the lot. Now if it doesn'L meet lhe
requirements because Lhe soil is sandy or it's not buildable, then the
person should come back in and prove that they can put a house closer than
3o feeL uritliout irnpacting the environment and there are a number of ways of
doirrg it- I'rre got a house in Florida that's built on the intercoasLaL
Hat-crr,Jly - IL lra; 58 pilirrgs under it. No Problem. If somebody Hants toput a lrous,e cl oser than that., they've got bad soil, if they urant that vieul
bad eno,-rglr, Lhe;, can make it urork buL to come in and say hey, it's 30 fee!.That': it. Th;:t's wrong. l think each instance, each lot has to be lookedat indiviclually and you have to make aLlowances for people to take
advanl-6..rr' c,f the vi€r.J that they paid good money for. By coming across and
sayin,r hcy, iL's ?O feet-. That's it- Then you'r'e decreasing the value ofthe iot arrd that's wrorrg. That's my opinion. Thank you.
Emming3: AIr ight . Thank you. Yes sir .
Don Halla: I really just have a quesLion that I'd }ike answeredis, hor^r much problem have you had with this difficulty? How muchproblent: have you had on lots? Has iL beerr a severe problem?
and that
erosion
Krauss: It's been a very severe pr-oblem. Ne have some major erosionsites. frr fact we just had a bus tour where we Look members of the
Minnesota PCA, the DNR, Lhe MetropoliLan CounciI, both tlaLershed Districtsthat are in there, SoiI Conservation Service. In fact all these agencies
we gave copies of this bluff Iine ordinance and most of them that have
responded are encouraging us to be more restrictive then ue've proposed tobe. I point out too that in Bloomington, the t^latershed District just got
through r,riLh I think it was a $6 million dollar project Lo repair erosionto a cr.)3k bluff system along Nine MiIe Creek thaL was basically caused by
development and lack of foresight, t"Jha! Ne've Learned is tha! once these
proble,ms starL, there's realIy hell. to pay because they're very difficultto stop. A couple of the sites thaL are highly visible and I'd be glad to
Planning Commission Meet i ng
August 27, l99t - Page 22
tahe an)' of you out there. There's the Dypwick property and Bartalproparrly. There'g even been one that involves Lhe City with Lhe road tothe gc,lf course. That orre probably is coming the closest to be resolved atthis point. But Dypwick is on the verge of Iosing some buildings andBarLa] il t c,ncerned that if the erosion conLinues he.'II ]ose his swimmingpool . t"lhen ue took the Bluff Creek tour, the hiking Lour that u,e hadearlier this spring, I Lhink ural king around Lhe bottom you sab.l, those of uslrho were there, saw very visibly where these problems were starting tooccur and you don't see them from the !op. I know one site ure Iooked atwith a little bit of care hJas the new house that's being built by the
Redmond's and it's perched out ov.er the bLuff. Once these problems start.HopefuLly Lhey won't starL. Clearly the desire is to prevent these thinssfrom happening irr the first place because once they start, they'reextremely di fficult to arrest.
Emmings: And other information we had is that the bluff areas in someplaces arc' just very fragile and that even the change you get from buildinga house an<l jusL changirrg, gettirrg runoff even from the roof in some ofthese fragile areas can cause erosion to begin to occur because you're justgetting it more directed- f guess we saw some of lhose places. ["le uent fora hiking tour along Bluff Creek last spring and Ne saw some examples of itbut the. people that r,rere along from I think the Soil and h,laler ConservationDistrict? They were auare of many other examples uJhere there's similarIand in other cilies u,here they are having problems. That,s one of thereasons we felt we had to get on top of this. The other thing is, you'relooking at it from one end only and I think to some e;tent I'm thinking
about- it in terms of J.ooking at it from the other end. Do we wanLbuilding: hanging ouL over all over the bLuff? I!'s one thing to saysetba:k 5 feet. It's another thing when you Lalk about being out in someof thos:c n:itural areas and seeing hc,mes hanging out over the bluff and isthat something we want. I don't know but thaL's another issue,
Don lialla: 0liay. I'm fasriliar r,:iLh two of the properties that you're
referring to. One is the one that the City filled asainst without our
PelnrisEi(,n ()n our Pr.trerty and running off of our property. Never askedpermieeion and heuled in several thousand yards of soiL, Thinking it was
somebody €,lse's. property and never checking it. They didn't properly put
in the drains. They didn't properly put in culverts. They didn't connect
them properly. They didn'! extend drainfields properly. They didn't put
vegeLalion back on it properly. They did everything wrong that Lhey nowthrough their ordinance of anybody fillins or anything, they're extremelycritical of those people of doing it right and yet during a]l of thisperiod of time the City has not come in and corrected the problem thaL theycreated. t^lhat they did h,rong even though now they're very restrictive onothers. Dypwick's property that you're taLking about, whether he wasallowed to or whatever, he filled that area and built on fiII. I mean the
stuy !^,as crazy to do it in my estimation. It had been there and hadn't beeneroding for years because of the fact that it was a sheer drop off. He
wanted an extra 1O-2O feet of property so he fiIIed it with garbage
l iteral Iy . DemoI ition of buildings . Barrels . Everything that he couldget hauled in. Not clay fill. If he had put clay fitl in there, hewouldn't have had a problem. ft was dumb on his part in my estimation.He's got his problems caused by it. Maybe he has to spend like, if you'd
like to take a look at a couple of the walls in Edina where people have
PIar,r,iri!: t',.r:r. j r':,iof; M6-,cLirlg
Alr._i': t :l, 1911 i'a:lc ::
sperrir ei f oltune to make buildable ]ots. I live one block from one lhat I
thini.r the lot-'s stiII unbuildable but there's a $2 million dollar- house on
top of it , tlr:t they',,r€, put in 75 'f ool of retaining wa11. They have no
erosion piotrlems. It's Pure sand. It uJas done and engineered Properly.
They have, a iijveway thal goes uP at almost a 40 degree an91e to do it and
they have to have heating coils and everything else bu! in fact they
corrected the problem, . t^lhat I'm reaLly iust Pointing Lhese things out is
there,s probably other remedies and necessarily building restrictions that
i1 sornelrodt gets themselves into these problems, they can work themselves
back out. Nor,r certainly in the nursery business we deal with them every
day. There's many clifferenl ProducLs Lhat can be put on sloPes. Anything
from retaining uraIIs to vegetation that r^riIl hold almost any sloPe there
is, Crorrr rretch that David merrtioned is what they use on the coalfields
out easL. ThaL's uhere it was originally developed because it's such a
sturd;' plant and Lakes over and it has a deeP root system so it does
preven:- erosion on crackly ground that has no food value in it whaLsoever.
llc;.r ). i,u wriLe, the orcli nance and what you do with iL I guess is Purely uP to
you but_ L.rhal: I,m trying to say is that there may be other remedies to some
c,f thcse things and I don't think people should be allowed to put irr 15-20
foot of .loo:-:c fill and then build buildings on thenr and then come back and
comp)ain about then later. I don't think that's right either and yet f
Lhink t-h;t the City should be an examPle ' If thev go ahead and do these
thinge, thc>' should remecly Lhe Problems that thev create in their ot'rn
malring. t.Jc havc a prob]em tha: r..,e have been trying to Prevent being a more
rnajor prot,lern - lhat is we have soil erosion control sLructure. This is
so.ing t,o corr.j up again so I will bring it up tonight and iL wilL be
aff e.c.teo h> thjs ordinarrce. That is we're back 15 vears Probably at this
poirii- th]'oLrgh the Soil ConservaLion Lo P)'event runoff on the nursery and to
keep thi. v.l]leys frc,m eroding further uP. We puL in a dam and the dam was
en3ir,e .,r': -l anri eo forth by the SoiI Conservation Division. In that 1O inch
rain it was r'reakened substantially. t^le have water running out. of it anC
then on:- cf thesr, daye it's going to go. t^liLh the new ordinance on grading
and:o f c,rth we can't erren really correct it. Certainly we urere given a
choi(:ij of putlirrg in, bre Put in about 600 yards ]ast vear behind it.
rraii:]7 the recj t.ape t had to go through, r Nas going to do it agairr but
put r:p :. '1,1o,ooo.oO bond in order to correct a Problem which could be a
rra jor rrroL,lern for Lhe peoPle down in the valley laler and to fill a valley
that's been eroding for a million years and Lry to PrevenL the problem, it
wasn't worth it to me to 9o through the fieht to correct a Problem that I
knou someday is going to harm somebody else because it's eroding out.
t^Je've got. somebody right now Lhat says hey, we'II give you 3O,OOO to 5o,ooo
yards of soil Lo fill this behind this dam to Prevent it. He wants to move
it off the rc,ad out here this coming uleek. He can't do it because it will
take 6o daye in the process to be able to do iL. And vet it's something
that r.:ould prevent the tyPe of problems lhat you're talking about righL nour
because if the dam structure goes, it would be a major problem. t^lhere do
all theee thinss work? How does an ordinance handle situations like
that? That's why I asked abouL how much of a Problem it is because I think
Lhcre's a lot of different wavs of controlling erosion besides just having
arr orciinan,:e uhi.clr would prevent people from using the proPerty and Lhe
v j.ei,r Lhat they bought the properLy for, That's all I have to say.
Emming:: Tlrank you.
PIannin,3 iornmiesion Meeting
August ?l , 7997 - Page 24
Dairici HaIia: f have one more comment. I've been sitting here listening tothis irnC I th.irk there's a rather easy solution to this situation. Youpeople. require a building permit. Okay? In that building permit j! couldcurtail sonr--cne going oul there and I think it's already being done,ph;-cic-ally irrspecLing the site and making a determination whether it looksfeasible. AL thaL point Lhey can say, okay. If they Hant to put this
house u:ithin 10 feet of the bluff or make the variance over the 30 feet,they havr-, to do soil borings to substantiate that the ground is solid
enough and iL's not going to erode. You can also make it a requirementthat they Provide proper vegetation on the slope if the slope is disturbedby the excavaLing so that you put it back in as good a condition or betterthan what you found it. I think most homeowners would be more than willingto spend the extra dollar to preserve lheir own property. Okay? So that'san easy w6y to do it. Instead of coming along and arbitrarily saying hey,it's 9oin9 to be 30 feet. That's written in bLood. That,s it. Nodeviations. If you want a variance you know, r^re may or may not go about itand people coming along from Lhe l^,ater and Conservation or Soilconse'rvatiorr saving hey, it should be 5o feet back you know. r think eachsite has to be looked at individually. you can do that in your buildingpernit grction Nhen son-reoire says hey. I want to take advantage of my Iot.f want Lo pL.l; m)' house closer to Lhe bluff so I can appreciate the view andget the value of my property from doing that. Now my brother's talkingabout this daflr anci he r^ras tetling me all the hoops and everything that theywanted him to jump through. I built that dam. The SoiI Conservationpeople carr€ cirt and designed it and Lhen they didrr 't want to cost sharewith jt because they felt it wasn't enough watershed to proLect. UeII, thething, lhc :r-o:.!on was going back up in the fjeld for about a city blockand iL !Ja: nr'/ determination aL that Lime that we wanted to preseive thatprop€rty arrd rrc'+- continue to have it erode back farther up in the field andby plrttin? this dam in, ue di,J that. ekay? Nor,,r over the years, I told mybrother l-hat hc hacj to keep maintaining that thing you know and he got- alitlle. hit- Iax in iL and he did have some er-osion fronr the big rains and sofo;-th a;rcj when he wanLed Lo 9o back Lhere and repair it, the plannirrg
Commissiorr here Iiterally rnade him jump through hoops. t,lanted him to putin alL ki nj,r of b,oncls and guarantees and stuff like that and I in plain
Iangauge, lhat-'s asinine. Here again you've got bureaucracy getting jn theway of cc)rrrTron sense " A situation like that where the people took it uponLhemselves, at their expense to prevent the erosion of soil. protect theenvirorrmenL, Anybody walked out there and looks down in that canyon andcan see hcw what we did prevenLs the further erosion of that canyon downthere. Hey, it's a good deal . But noh, to come in and say you can't keepthat maintained. You've got to have a permit to come in Lhere and put soilon it, I think that's stupid. Now Dypwick on the other hand, that was anunder the table deal that the city concocLed and allowed this Ingram tohaul in his clemolition materials and I sab,, those trucks go by and I calledup here and complained about it. I said hey, you can,t be dumpingdemolition in there and building on top of that so that,s why Dypwick did.
He created his own problem and the city then should, if you want to dosomething like this, put some teeth into it and say hey. If peopJ.e screwup and do stuff like this, they've got to be responsible. It's the same
way wjth the PolLution ControL has on underground' storage Lanks. If theyleak, you p.-,7. for iL. Okay? If these people do stuff Iike Lhat, they can
come in and be held responsible for it and you know, j.f >,ou make a person
responsiL,le for building closer to a bluff when they have an erosiorr
Pl i:r',ni r ,, ^cn:l,i:,eion Heeting
Augr:.t .^1 , l'.1 - Page 25
cc,ntrcrl prc,blen, and they take care of it on their own, they're going to do
it riohl because Lhey don't BanL to sPend that money to clean uP if they
screu up 6na' do it wrong. But PeoPle like Dvpwick that did that wher<, the
City allowed thenr to haul in that debr is for years and years and years and
never s'cruti rrized it and as far as f knon, they are sti]] hauling that
stuff in there. I+-'s a good cheap way for Ingram to haul in his demoliLion
material and his sturnps and stuff like that and that's not good fill but it
was allowed to go on. You know that stuff is wrong but you could
write this ordinance in a way that you make PeoPIe that build closer to the
30 foot that you,re talking abou! be responsible for the erosion and be
financially responsible for the clean uP if something haPPens.
Emmings; Okay. Anybody else that t^,ants to be heard on this?
Mark Halla: I just wanted to add a litLle bit on the dam that bre have and
that we brrilt since I've been urorking on it myself mainly trving to get
City ar-,pro.,al as recently as 10 or 20 Phone calls today to the Citv
Manager. t^le h4ve had thie dam for years. I believe it was built in 1972-
It's rnaintaining a rough estimate of 3oo,ooo to 4oo,ooo gallons of ulater.
It drains apploxirnately 35 acres. The Lorrence from Lhe rains thaL ure had
just this sprirrg moved boulders Ehat probably weighed 4oo-5oo pounds each.
Movel the;,r into the middle of Lhe pound so there's quite a bil of drainage
comiirar jnlo this area. tlhat I don't understand is if you're goirrg to adoPt
a bluff ir:e33:,r.tLion item Iike this to Protect it, Lhen whv is not the City
helpin-- pratect it. on iL'g own. It has an area that is ri.ght across lhe
yes,'l f 1'c,m rny' ::it t uhere I bui lt my home that they f illed without
permis::iorr . Dumped lousv fill in there. Chunks of concrete- Chunks of
tree slufirps. AII sorts of things- They did it exactly dead urrong y€L now
6e merrtion that to thenr arrd said you didn't even have permission. Can yoLl
at lea'.:t- pr-r:.1-r th,: piles down so I don't sii here and Iook at these piles
frorr rny nee hcJuse- So Lhey dicl that but ever since then now we have a
probl.rra in r,:,:erse on r-rying to maintain our oun dam - If the CiLy really
r.,arrts tc) adopt. an ordinance and heLp the bluff, then they reaLly should
real ly fee I that:. i.t;ry ralher than allowing something. f f our dam goes to
pot an,j that, r^ralel runs through, I Personally have seen it 3 to 4 f eet deep
and Iilie I s-rid, it's rushing so quicklv Lhat all the rip raP ure Put in'
probably 4o-5o tc,ns of .it, utashes inLo the pond and we need to dredge that
out with a backhoe, t^lhen you have tha! much ulaler running, maybe you HanL
to sometimes help lhe citizens that are trying to work on I guess
preserving that bluff. As far as I'm concerned, if we don't get help,
maybe we're best off to ]et it 90 to Pot and we maybe will lose some field
but f can affovd to lose Lhat if in Lhe return the Citv realizes that it
r.ras a big mistake not !o a]Iour us to fiII and maintain it. f! can be quite
costl)., if you have that many acres of ground letLing the urater through.
The b,i€r damage was done in tha! 10 inch rain. t,,e got it maintained last
year by putting in some fiII and resLored it a bit buL even this sPring we
didn'! have a problem with the washout simpLy because we restored it' t'Je
probably r*ould have but like I said, if we're moving boulders that big, it
seems to me we should consider allowing PeoPle that are lrving to rePair
thing: to keep the bLuff looking good, t*e should consider allowing them to
do so ancl not. restricting them. Less thev get the altitude of really not
giving a damn about the bluff and leLting it erode simply because thev urere
noL al.]oued to niai.ntain it lhemselves. So I would hope in your planrring
that yorl would consider Lrying to work with the concerned citizens as tlelI
Plarrrrin: Cl;nlris:ion Ha+t- illg
FrugLr:1 :l , I ool- ' P=ge 2(
anC r,c,+. :iri: l> adopting scrnething thet
try j r,: i-,i do gccd l:z Llre bluf f . Tltank
does shut out those pec,ple that are
YoLl .
Jjm 9:lerucl : H), name, is Jinr SuIerucl . I Iive within lhe area.
Emmings: l,Jh.:t is your address?
Jim 9'ulerudt 73O Vogelsberg TraiI. I think one thing that would behelpful and probably worthr^rhiJ.e because the area has a diversity ofproblems, every parcel of lot is not experiencing the same problem-
Something th.t might be helpful is to develop a specific plan like you dosimilar to a land use plan in minature but as to r^,hat specific actionsyou're ]ooking for on each parcel of Iand because I think you 've got somesituations urhere you truly want to maintain the status quo. That is leavetrees. Lerve the current bluff line. Maintain the slope at h,hal it is andothcr situatiorrs you have erosion that has occurred that you want toacLuellr bring about. some repairs. Maybe some filling is appropriate.ttthe-; piac.es there may be si.tuations where you've had fiLl that isinapprdg;riat.: that ought to be removed or may take some special action torepair. E,r I think you have a variety of circumstances existing thatyou'r-r: Lri'in! t-o solve ujith a non-specif ic ordinance. I would think Lhatit untrid t; vcTr- helpful. The area is not that extensive and I knowther.-'u n,ilr-.-.: and mile: of line that you've identified but I think it,sr.,e]l NOrth your whi).e looking at all the headaches over the years, to go
thrr:u.,rh €,D. h p.rlc€.I and identif y r.rhich of the areas thal you intend to
ma.i ntairr the specific bluff line. That r.,rouLd hetp this gentleman. It
b,,ou1d hclp Lhe Halla's. Are you trying to restore? Is fillins appropr iatein the:t rai,ir,e t,y the HaLla's or is it not? Certainly there's a naturalerosiorr that occurs, has occurred r:ver hundreds, thousands of years thathag create;d r.:hat you're calling the bluff lirre right now. f t wasn't theblufl' lin.: iOo yea(, aga. So you're picking a point in Eime and sayingr.rel.l this. is xhat's appropriate. Maybe in nr>, neighborhood I,ve Iooked forthe Cit:" i:i develop a fill plan to just keep TH 1O1 from falling in and we
har.,e ,=r't- reai!',e.i acc or:rmodat i on lhere. It doesn't either add or detract from
my propar ty. It's jusL something that ought to be done because the erosion
has cc<Urred over recent history E,ut I thj.nk that would be a way ofaddres:irrg each of the pcople on eac,h of their sites in a Nay that,s veryhelpfuL to +-hem and to the future owners to ]et Lhem know uhat your
intentions are. t^lhat that may mean is you have to define a more specificpurpose for the ordinance in the first place. That is urhat is it you'retrying to do. Are you trying to maintain the staLus quo? Are you tryingto get tc, a position of holding a certain bluff line or I don,t thinkthat's real clear. I think in general people appreciate what you,re tryingto do but the questions that are raised seem to indicate that there a.r-eproblems Nith that. I know there's some very obvious problems that you,readdre=sing, rn the bueiness fringe area a pole barn was erected. A metalshed that has tremendous erosion behind it. Through the bluff creek areathere's various sites of some places where there's extensive erosion. Otherplaces uheri: there's garbage fillins and all of this would address aIl ofth;,t. i thinir cr.re L,ig problem that the Planning pommission faces alI thetime and is again raised here tonighL is the question of variances. Idon't l:;-rr,r.,: if yc,u can get at it. Probably not through this ordinance butif the:;'s alu,:ays an avenue for someone to come to you to say urell mysituation is a )ittIe bi! different. It's realLy the out that hopefully
Fiani:i n; C c;r,i,,i ss i o n MeeL i ng
AUJU- 1 31 , 1.11 - P.;ge 27
r.rouldn't suFport the ord!nance but if for instance Lhe example that this
genllerne n has. He would like to have a certain view. t^lell what is Lhe
intent c,f Lhr-: ordirrance in that resard? I don'! think it's been verv clear
to give hir, guidance or to Mr. HaIIa's other Iots. Are those 2 trees or 3
Lrees critica:l to lhe ordinance? I don't think you've said whether tha!'s
criLical cr noL to maintain those trees or is that a violation of their own
rights of propet-ty oHners to Prevent them from cutting down those trees' I
think you need that guidance. However, when someone asks to build within
the 30 foot line and have a variance, h,hat guides vou on th;t? Just if
iL's buildable? Mr. Halla again pointed out and I think you've seen in the
past a g<,od enSineer can build on any site and can Proiect over the bluff
or whatever. They can put a swimming pool anyh,here. They can float themin
the air. You can clo anything so I think to raise the question is something
buitdable is nc"- helpful to use. Not helpful Lo the Citv- I think the
city has to develop some firm guideline as to what the outcomes they want
are on tte diffei-ent properties. Because someone can always come in with a
huild:,t,Le plan and if that's all Lhat's necessary then you for aIl
prarlical p,.ll'tr)::= have no ordinance. I'd like to see that approach with
regard to trropcr!ies Lhroughout the city because I think the citv is on
Ioose fo.-rt.in3 r.rh:-n p=oplz conte to Lhe Planning Commission to aPPeaI because
the>. saz th€')' €an accommodale, can Prevent erosion- in this particular
case end I tl-,ink Lhc;. can maka a plan for that buL in the Iong run it rnay
not be irr the best interest. Because I live within the buildabLe area or
in th.e def ine,l ar-ea and I'd like Lo maybe go from a 1 car garage to a 2 car
garage someda)., I'd like to see somethj ng specific on saying that homes
trithin t lrii- are.: cctild maybe have a 25"'. or 5oZ square footage fooLprint
adcled on. gomething specific so Lha! h,e know what we have to deal with.
I tlrinli thc perspectivc Lhat you have to take in this particular case,
Liccauee these L,Iuf f ]ines are established over thcusands of years, is a
Long term pelspective. A3 a Planning Commission hopefully you take that,
alI the tinre and alI your deliberations. Although you're the Planning
Conrr,is:ioi f or' 1q?1 , I Lhink that the decisions you make certainly Put
housc-,:, irr plac.c.. Put roads in place lhat last for 1Oo years or hopefully
3OO yr..;i:: to ai I=asI- establish those Patterns that People see in the easr'
coas! arrd xhite I probabLy don't inlend to be offensive, I think the
HaII:': are here for a few years and they'll be here for a few vears more
b,,rt i t's cf f ensive to nre that their aPProach tlhere they intencl to or give
the f le;c.r of them beins here before the city and wiII be here after the
city, l thjnk you have to hear words of encouragement Lo stand up and
make decisions that are here for the Iong haul. And Lhe HaIla's are acLing
in their self inlerest as Probably I'm aPPear.ing here in my self interest 'I think you and the rest of the citv would be weII to think of the, vou
knou: they !.rerennt here 2oo years ago. They won't be here 2oo years fron'
nour but your decisions will be. Thank vou.
Nancy Lee: l.'ly name is Nancy Lee. I own the ProPerty a! 1O5OO Great
Plains- Most everything I hJanted to say LonighL has already been said bv
all the other c:oncerned people. I agree that rather than being totallv
restrictived, we should probably Iook at each site individuallv and I think
through the L,uilding process the city already has. the control that thev
need and that thaL building wiII come Lhrough wiLh all of vour permits'
buildirri permits, plans that the City has the power to make sure that you
have proper engineering Plans- That you have proper plans that are not
going to be ciestructive to the bluff. I guess I see that if they continue
P I e n:-.i;,; Conrni::ion Meetin?
Ltt-t_L ^1 1.^r _ O..r, .a
uEin€i thoE.e pi-oper measures, we shouldn't have a problem rather than beingtoLaIIy restrictive. Then I have anoLher question as far as hou many limes
can Lhis bluff setback affect a property? f guess I'm thinking in my case,pcssiSly they're going to consider that it's the entire property or closeto it. tJhal clo I do in a case like that?
Emmings: I don't understand your question.
Nancy Lee: f guess as far as the setbacks and
degrees and everything that was Laid down, saylike thaL sc, that I have mulliple bluffs on mybluff.
everything according to the
my property happens to glproperly instead of just one
Emmings: Is that in fact uhat happens?hypothetic.'':I: here, we could be here aII
happens c,n yoLlr proper!y?
want to,. if we get inLoIs that whaL actua 1 I y
I don'tnisht.
Nancy Lee: f haven't sat arrd looked at the degrees and things like that.f'm on t-h:, parcel on 2L2 that goes sLraight down. Is the railroad tracksthat have j',rsL be,en pulled, is that considered the start of a bluff?Thai's anqt-her one of my concerns. That happens to be a business fringedistrict anC f guess alreacly we've gone through some very restrictivemcticlns on iL to the pt>int that I'm trying to sell it because the Cityuon't allow me to build my business there or anything of the likes so mystep is to sell it and if I conlinue t.o get inore restr-ictions on it, Ican't sell it ancl it does me no good to sit there. f guess one other thingI jusl ante(1 '.o say, iL has nothing to do with that last comment is thisgerit)eman n:ade a comment that he "Ioves the bluff". I think n)ost thepeople Lhet buy property on the bluff and plan on building on the bluff iLis because the>, love the k,luff arrd they're not about to do something that'sgoir3 t: rrin th:- bluff . I guess that's all. I had to say.
Emrninge : Thanfi you.
Ve)'r-,{ i?'",.::-son: I'm \rerne Severson aL (.7.- Lakota Lane. t^le live on thebluff. tla har"e a beautiful piece of property and I guess wlra! I have Losa;- ic pl'ctty much the same as what everybody else has been saying but I
h,ant to rej.nforce a few points. That is that we like the intent of Lheordinance. l.le want to be good stewards of the Land. As property ownerswe're not going to do anything that's going to damage our property and when
we got this ordinance it looked more Iike, it .]ooked like it nas somethingconfrontational . It didn't lcok Iike it was something there to help us.ft's sorre' kind of an ordinance thal's being put out by an emergency State
committee cr something. t^te feel that the people of the City r^ror k for us.tle're the taxpayers so u,e would welcome any kind of guidance lhat wculcJhelp us protecL cur property and as has been mentioned before usingbuilding permits I think could be a good method. You do it with builclinssnou. Yc,Lr do it with installing seh,er systems and I Iook at that as a r,rayof the City's helping me to protect my land and to protect the invesLment.I pu"r inlo iu,. I think that something Iike that woul.d be more appropriatein this situation and again as somebody else mentioried, each piece of
ProPert'- is differcnt. Each piece of property has iL's own problems and Ithinl. thc,y each have to be ]ooked at individually. I guess h,h6t it boils
down to is thrL :s a property owner I resent having the Citv tell me
car r i lntr r' ,lv:j o Il
Llse rry property. I would welcome the City
iL or prctecL it fronr being damaged. Thank
telling nrr- houj
you.
Emmi ngs: Anybody
hear i ng?
else? If not, is there a motion t c., close the pubiic
Batzli moved,
favor and the
he r e
.11
t f ,r
:.:1.
an;.'
EI Ison
mot ion
seco nded
car r ied -
to close the publ i c
The public hear i ng
hear ing - All voted in
uas closed.
lhat you said. I
comrnu ni ty i nter est .
Emmings: In response, I guess iust as a general resPonse to some of the
comments or a lot of the comments that have been made here. I think that o
lot of people that spoke are looking at this a loL differently than I am.
I thirrk that I'm sul.e each individual ProPerLy is very unique but tQ even
suggest lhat r,,je cou.Id deveLop some kind of ordinance that would be a
sepire t., FIan for each individual piece of Propertv is iust ' it's
unthinkaL,Ic. tJe can't operate Lhat way. I lhink what we're trying to do
hc;': i.: q....1-;blish some kind ol' minimal standards so thaL ute don't uind uP
wiLh pr-r,blernE, with the bluff. Looking at the bluff as a very valuable
natural fca",,r:r'e c,f our- community. A realIy unique fealure of our cornrnunity
and mct;c. sure that there's some minimum standards in Place that everybody
ui 1l h."rv: Lo obscrve. I don't think t4e want to see engineering solutions
tc t,uili:nE clr1.r tha edge. I th.ink that's exactlv what we don't tlant to
::e,- . rir: t hi-1-a such Lhings? Sure. I'm sure there ar-e. You know
Californja, r.he)' build on Lhe sides of hills all the time and then Lhev
co n L i ;,r.,a I .1. >' h;vc naLur-al disasters that PUt Lhese houses down at the bottom
of Lh<. hi ll . Birt t.Je dorr't everr Hant to see thein hanging over the hiIl. I
thirrl. L:h;. l. r.:-'r'e saying is, sure the bluff 's been eroding for, you know
since f clirli't know how long but since the glaciers uent through and cut
thos:- v lla),s or Lhe waLer coming from the glaciers cut those valleys or
r.rh.:teve r .-r rr.l they've b,€jc- n eroding ever since, And He're noL trying to sLoP
that-. Thar,'s not , I guess that's no+- our conce]'n. I guess the concern
or- thc impact lhat development brings. The increase in erosion.
: imper-t: aseo;iated r^rith developmelrL on the bluff . Looking at
a:. a unique natural resource. tle dorr't Hant Lo see engineering
. 1,,i" Nert to jusl kind of try and preser-ve them as they arc. You
r,roperly cwners won't do anything to hurt their ProPerties and
therr yol Lalk abouL Jeff Dypuick. You can't sav both those Lhings ai- the
same Lime - Some people even when thev're welI intentioned hurt themselves
and hult, their propbrty and the problem is, again as we've been told is
th6t these areas are so fragile that once a bad erosion Problem develops,
it's ver-y difficulL to do anything about it. AL least in Places.
Depending probably on what the soiIs...and that's whv having financial
gu6ranlees to have those people be financially responsible tlon't even solve
the proh,)em. Anyway, with those comments we'II start doxn here -
Ahrens: I agree with everything Steve has said. I haPpen to think thst
this is a very well r^rritten ordinance. I also didn't get a chance to go
through a.L1 t-he comments on the SoiI and tJater Conservation District and
tlatershed Distric,t L.-uL I can see that there are some Lhings in here that I
think should be included in our ordinance and I think tre should table this
until urs. can inccrrporate some of those changes.
F;r'raa[.::,: f urould alsr: agree wit-h most of the Lhings
thirrk there is a difference between self interesL and
Pl anni n3 C,:rr'::rni-.,siorr Meeting
Au:,,: t 7! , ).t97 - Page 30
I b,e iieve t!-,at there's a difference also between definiLion of development
an;J tr; +:erv.:'-ion. t^lhat I see here is, and f respect your individual righi-to .lc:i. al- this fr-om your pe:-sonal piece of property but the community also
has an inf-eresL in preservation of natural resou)'ces in this area" I thinkthat this is gocd ).cgislation to do that. It's easy for me to sit herebecau:e I don't o!{n property on Lhe bluff and I'm sure that's what you'rethinking but ths intent of this is to preserve some of that and obviouslyin any type of zoned community or any type of preservation siluation,you're going to have to give up some right to do that. There,s a give anda take Lhere, If you're going to preserve, you're going to have to curLailsome development ancl that's a given. Getting back to the actuallegislation itself, Lhe comments that were made by the Soil and UaterDistrict and from Lhe Attorney here, r lhink that those are valid commentsmade and I think LhaL also we should table Lhis until those are
incc;-pore.',e.-.r in there -
8at
't i-.: I
ft .
I'Jl.el)' :ui Jeff. I'r not going to repeat what,s been said but ll: a ch..n:: et s,Jn:e point to LaIk about sone of these changes andt hry'rr actually irrprcveir,ents or not. I think it r^roulC be helpf ulil-: i:rte.r.i secLion tc th€ sta:-t of the ordinance.
WCU
uh:ti
E r:..-r i ;: l lrr'.1 :'- "- at. :he start.
Ea!:l.i: (ir: , " - :.1, h,;r things gc in the def inition?
Baizli: It'; getLing '.rarrner I thought.
E,. t;li: CI.:; , grccl , /rnd I think the intent is in the ordinance ancl Iagl-(,: If i,r - r.:,rr'L preselve the bluff and wc aIIr:r^r other people, no rnaLler
Tl-rer'.-': i;.. jn: I o be erosion. Ihere's going to be things hanging over. iLarrr f 'ci i i irr l-c, s.ce the L,luff preserved so as not to ruin it becausc ldon'L ur.i':.'- lo r.:: i ! arcund for the ncxt Ice Age to seL it back.
Emnrings: Oh yeah. Annette.
Ellson: I think we still have variance procedures there but I don't thinktha building permit area would be a very good location to try to handleeach j.ndividual situation. f can just see everyone saying wel). you Ietthis guy Co this and he had what have you. It doesn,t work in the buildingpermit sc, r think that's why we have setbacks for everybody and things likethat. I have trouble believing that you lose so much of your vieb, aL 30
f eer- . I cJon't krrow hot"r many people on the bluff right now that meet this.Actual.l y there's probably quite a few. I don,t like the idea of thenatural L,luff having houses stickins out on it just Iike you said in
Ca.l ifclnia or r ighf- now that a property owner can go and clear cut it ifthey r..;anteC to because literally lhey could and we'd ]ike to hope that theyhad inlerrLions not to do that but I'm not going to be able to stop thaLri.ght rrc,ii and f Con't like the look of a house sticking out. I cicn't think31 feei is lheL big a deal. I'm a little confused about, is it Ari? His
Ari Fuad: No it's buildable without this ordinance because.
ElIson: You hadn't done Lhe soil information stuff though.
the road went through there...Ari Fu6rd: I didn't feel I needed it because
and it uras actuallv not even on the bluff--.
Ellsorr: I think everybodv would like this orciinance to be next door to
th., uo r igh". around them it would all be ProLected. They don't want iL on
t.heir property. I think a]l the people that have it right now thaL don't
meeL it ar:r certainlv grandfathered in excePt if thev urant to keeP adding
addi tio:r:' to i+-. Therr rjght rrow they have more rights Lhan somebody corning
in tru,.. tl]al ,s r,rhere it stops. They can't tomorrow have additional ones
when thi-y want tc) t,uild and the proPerty next to them Hants to build- I
think thal's fair. I don't think iL's fair to sav by Lhe wav, vou're
grandfatl-rered in and you're grandfathered in to arrything that you add also
b"."usu trhere they stani righl nou. I'm for it an'C I think that there is
pcgsiib,ly a special circumstance, Haybe for Lhis gentleman and maybe that
t;ould bi:, thc variance, If he bought it Hith that in mind and utas given
as=.-r:ances thaL that's h,uildable for him and u;e take that aulay, that seems
t,r b.: Lh,-" or:\i' situat ion that's in the middle - You said vou had quite a
f ell phorre calls and he wae orie of them I'm sure but al] the rest were
tryir,J ttr support iL so I think there's a Iot of People out there tha" are
sa,.*irE this soulrds great that aren't here Lodav so that's it.
cituar ioi,, Th:rt ;'t,u're r-rol Pcsit.ive lhat your
ie .-r buil,J;l--l: 1ot even LJ:thout- iL so you wenL
horirrg >'n! c(,Lilci :-:et- that second. That urasn't
bou.gl'.t iL iniLially.
preferential buj I di ng place
a head a nd pur-c hased i t-
confirmed even when you
Corrrad: l.ll.it'r the prc,< ese that somebc,dy has to go !hrough if t',e7're
buil..Jir.; .r-i : i-lir'1-i'? I sat": som': wor-ds, the permit shaIl not be grantej- Is
there:, L,lr-rff ptrmit that goee along?
0lseir: Y=:-,h, r.:'rc going to Iike add that in with a grading Permit. Th.t
if they're '.:ithin thar b,Iuff zone and if thev are to be extensive gradirrg
over th:, 50 cubic yards I t-hink. 10? 10. That that pulls you to a Permilprocess. Then a.Iso if you're going to be doing any stairways or the l^if ts
within the bluff but Lhe setbacks.
LOnra!:-
Of sen:
Conr aci :
permi L?
Th3
the building inspector would trigger that?
building inspector?
t^lhat wculd trigger tha! for a homeowner? Pulling a buildins
ConraC:
i.rou I d have
thaL r",ou I d
Lo get a building Perrnit f,or
trigger Iooking at this zon€?
that.
trerii j r,-._ ._ :,. -
Tli:n on.e this zone is on the rrap, then
t-iu c.:ugir, tt'iSirJr;r !lrat thal-'s in the bluff
when those b,ui ) di ng
70 ne -
ne'r^,J
just 1i ke r,,iethi ng.
(i:r,:;:j : l.l. tjot.jjcn't aut oriatica.l .l>, asr.. for a permit. Lthat woulcl we?
OIs:., : ti-ll if Ll,e1're just buiiding Lhe horne and Lh6t,s the 3O fee'-- back.If the ), ii-::i that setback. Then they don't require any other aciditionalpermils. It's once they get into thai- impact zone that there,s going t-o bealterar-icn wi thi n Lhat.
Emmings: Or u,cu]drr 't it be tru€ too that if r^le're Iooking at a6ubdivisi.n, th6! would be for an existing suhdivision. But oneubcJiviE.ion we'd have to look at that and be able to set thoseset the buffer zone along lhe Lake up in the new Lundgren Bros.Y+u'd r.ri nc up sc:tti.ng those in a subdivision I suppose.
Cis,-'r' ii.,:-.: ',r'r I i',':: g.;ip," Lo L,e Lreate.C kind of Iike a uetlan,j
Conracl !,: +. |'rc,y' a r c
in L h., '- irrp.:c.i- ;,;,1-1s
Ol sr- ri: Tl,r gracjing
catch :r-,r;,-. c,f i i -
Corrra:l ' 9:r i1 's, a gracJi n9 p;r-r,i..?
to...tlris hypothetical property's going to buildlrave to fill ouL a pr.)'mii-?
some
and
,,^te
g,) L ng
eo they
lc-mjt, if j'.': part c,f Lhe L,uildirrg per.n:iL then tre can
0Ig::.r: j',::; l-r , Lhrr':'s t- i,Jo a'i1if L-t'enL ones. If it.'s jusL going to be thc
!:i.:c;;i-,:; iiitl,-;', an:i liirt, tl-rc sLa.i:-r^r;,y arril r- eii'tot/ i rrg --he alteration anciv.::J.:a..1i.r_,n, t_i'.:l'= wlr:., rit';: taikin::r about kickin.g thc=e in with like the
C;;C.i n: g::-n,it (,r Er.;.ji ng oui a siLe wjthjn that bluff inrpact zone. That,sil-.' :r:- '.!):.;;. Th:;i': L.;l'ie n r,l:'t'.: going Lc, tt'y to pu: Lhat underneat_h tha
3:;e,,ii r,;: :'e :'l.i'-. -l-hrn ),(,u a1sc, have a bui ld_inar perrnit just for the. buildinErof tnc 5tl ur-t''';1.'1- '
Ccr,;;-': i,1.,:,'. 'ihi= alteration of v€jgeteLion is probably where, f ,rn gc,ing
6n,-l ii s.:,i..;. i1,':, rrr- j: pernrit-Led l,rithin thet impac! zone bu',_ IimiLed clearc.riti:,;. Ii:rit: J --Ie,aring, l'.lr>t c:lear cuttirrg. Hc,L^i is that cieterruined?
Sornebod;, irho gccs cut, Lhe buildirrg inspector? It's pretty Ioose.
Olsen: I thjnl: one of the things that we're going to add is that ifsomebody calls and ure daily get calls about people ulho want to clearof thelr veg.tation. tlhat we usually do is we']l so out to the sitethat's ,rh.t L.,i a xere going to put. I think I,ve goL it in here wherer.rculd g,: c,-: to the site. . .
Conred: Ari whai's the guideline?
11.::: **: . .:.-i). :.:.'..
Cc,nr-.-,:r: :,a it': :taf f sa,..ing that this is probaL.ly appropria!e? you know,"rh.t I iin:l ir,:1-,]'e:ti n9 on t-his orclinance anC I thi.nk all !he cofiiments f
i,e; rr, i.:;.:p'',t :..-.t reaily groi comrrents. Arrd some of the requests say take:, 1,:,.i.. :'- Lh:. .';it:: irrijividually. I think philosophically I agree i/r)th Lhar:in a lc,t cif c.a::e.-... This governme nt can do that. It,s a case where ue lorlr
a,l ^ -- -
ther.i':
Ernrn i ng= :
olsen;
Conrad:
Olserr :
Conr aci :
Ernm i n3s ;
Co nr-: l:
Emrn i ng.r :
t^,le I I the r.rhole
a violalion of
Miscleirreanor.
M i scieflrea nor . So
The'i 'r e pr et ty
City Cocle alHa)'s
the Code you can
has the penalty section and if
go the 70 days.
Lhat appl ies
sr,ra I I r ight?
to an>'thing in the Code so.
Bas ica I Iy .
rh:.'/'re rearlJ.y not pena.Lties of signif icance.
97Cc.CO and 9O clays.
i C,l C€ t frelfi
.rh:t ur,trLrI l
face the Pl anni ng
Lhreatening all by
to
,t
Comnrissi6n.
itself.
typically , or maybe never .enforced Lhat way
6t wetla:rci.: incijv j clirally arrd we could Iook at bluffs individually anci
detcrminc if we had the resources what's risht but as Steve said,
practical.Iy spe'aking we just realIy don't. This.is an example, at least
Lhe r,ra y 1 reaC iL of a simPle ordinance. [.le're dealing uith iust a couplc
numbers an,j a couple pieces of philosophy. sometimes those simple thinge
are f guess I'd raLher have something simple than a comPlex, the comPlex
thins: in gcvernment don't work loo well. They ge! too ensnarled. tle have
an ordinance on two pages and after hearing Lhe comments and I keep
challenging the simpl.icity versus something that technically has merit.
Taking th= soiI. ue could develop an ordinance that really has technical
foundation in it so we literally 90 out to every site and we }iterally, we
sa)' cka'/. Whai are '.,re trying to Protect? Ue're trying to protect the
view . i^le're tryi ng to ProLec! erosion ' t^le could set uP standards and
I gues3 thc quesLion is, that we and the city Council has to answer is,
this is a real sirnple uray that might accomplish a Iot of that. Could
penaii;e .3 pe)-son here or Lhere, It might have a bad deal out of it buL it
migh,. be a sinrFle arpproach because it reflects back to what we've done uith
tr.iing to addi ri3 in our landscaping ordinance. You can have some real
te:hnicarl things or you coulcj just simple require 3 trees for a lot and
that'e a si;n;Ie epProach Lo making, to getting !o an end- Rather than a
lot cf c:orilolex rrunrLro jumbo thaL everybody gets confused with in ..ju.r
ordinances. 9.; anyuai I'm struggling ",ith some of the comments thai- I
hea,-d s;aying do we neeC a mcre soPhisticated ordinance or does this
ac.ofirplir;h it- in concept?. The olher Lhings, and I'm just going Lo gjve you
opi r"iion. tje have a wetland alteralion Permit process - Do ue need a
var ianci pi,).i'ss l)cl'e? Yeah, bluff alteration. Do re need Lhat? Again,
that's rl|nrhc, jumbo. Thart's: more sLuff to clo. I've never been, I think it
put.j u3, it allor.;s flexibility. Puts the city on the defensive. Hard Lo
p;- ov.-- - Hard !o substarrliate. Hard to arralyze aII that stuff that coirre s in
hc:'c - tJc don'L hervc the resources as maybe an individual who can hire a
consultant can a n!-.-l we just cjon't have the energy to review it as weII as
oth.-.i' traoplc. Th; Iast thing is penalty. Are there any penalties foi
^t!^-^+:-,^
PIa nrr j ng Comnrission Meeting
August ?l , 1991 - Page 34
Olsen: Eut the permit, the reason I kind of hush on the permits is thatstilI haven'L gotten all the, where we do alrow removal of vegeLation orthe topogrraphic arleration. t^ie haven't really fine rined exactly ulhatpermiL that's going to be and what's required in that. t^,e,re talking thegradi.ng permit nour but that will arlow vou to kind of look at it site bysite. I don't know that it helps Ari's position but that,s where thevariance application, he can go through that-
|\J€
Conr-ad:
var iance -
He could but Lhere's no, right nou there,s no standards for a
O]sen: IL would be a Board of Adjustments.
Conrad:
var iance -variance,
var i a nce?
Emm i ngs :
for Ar i?
srte- 1f
Ari Fuad ;
Emm i ngs :
existing.
But there aren't any standards. There aren't any guidelinesDidrr't somebody say that if we were ever going to allow ayou should have somelhing to LelL you when you would grant
for a
except
one
Krauss: There are standard conditions that appLy to all variances_ rt'sthe hardship criLeria or we've added a neighborhood standard whenever itdeviates. From hrhat Jo Ann is terling me m not cerLain whether or notthis wotrld meet the hardship criLeria. on the face of it, if there's aIegitimate building pad t.hat doesn't have a probLem but the one you preferdoes, the ansurer is build where there,s no problem.
Conr acj : RighL.
Emmi ngs; l.lo because, welI.
Olsen: But the neighborhood standarcjs might he]p.
E.l]son: The oLher houses in the same neighborhood.
Ari Fuad: There are houses that are down the bruff. ...possibility ofdoing it site specific. r know m Lhe ]ast roL in Hesse Farm that. there'sa question on and there's a question on my ]ot because it isn't a sheerbluff all the way down. It,s just a ridge that runs up. I think I'm morethe exception than the rule and r Lhink in this, r don't know the otherneighborhoods but you buy a 10 acre subdivision sized say in new areas andhave a rule that says cut out the ambiguity about was it a sheer dropoff orwas there some kind ambiguity...
How about if ure put a comma after the ordinance and say,That's a real problem. tje get in a lot of trouble zoningwe do something it's got to be across the board.
But could it say existing lots have some grandfathering?
tJe've done that. tJe're doing that for existing dwellings but not
Ari Fuad: t^}e]l this is an existinglot's been there 10 years and I canwhat the restrict.ione are. I bought
in an existing subdivision. Thein other subdivisions. ..would knoullot a year ago with fuII intent to
lot
see
the
PIanni ng Cornmission Meeting
AugueL 27, 79')t - Page 35
build orr the site. The ay it sounds there is process for a variance
there's an existing pad r"rhich there unquestionably is. It's just a very
inferior pad. But I don't have a choice. I have to build... If this
ordinance had existed at the time I wouldn't have bought the lot because,
like I say.-.
Emmirrgs: Right, we undersLand. Okay. Ladd, are you through yet?
Conrad: oh boy. So we're still pretLy Loose on that permiL process in
terms of our standards. Going back to vegetation aLteration. TelI me the
guidelines again. How do you say you can cut that tree down? You can't.
hle're trying Lo visually keep the bl,uff .Iooking the way we want it yet on
Lhe other hand people buy that Iot so they can build on it. So how are you
guided Jo Ann?
oLsen: A lot of times there's a lot of underbrush Lhere that if vou clear
thaL, thr-, t- gives you a pretLv good view. There's also trees that have been
you know diseaseci or dying and those are the ones that you go for first.
So those are things you look at- There's usually some Iarge ones Iike maybe
in clumps like one here and one there but there's usually some sPacing
between 6i1g1 e3 |ou can clear it so, yo.u 90 out to the site and it is kind of
easy to det ermi ne.
Conrad: So you feel pretty confident Lhat you're going to be able to give
a honreounet a v i eur?
Olsen; Yeah. In the cases that tre've wor ked with like in Deerbrook and
stuff, y.s we've been able to and a lot of times we will bring the SoiI and
[^Jat€,r conservatiorr District PeoPle out because the bluff exists and we do
Iook at r.rhat the undergrowth is. And if vou need other vegetation there so
if we do let them take Lhe underbrush out, then thev have to do like a ]ow
growing grasii or something Lo replace thaL. So that's one of the things
you ]ook at.. t,e don'L have sPecific standards, although in the landscaping
ordinance I clon't know if that would aPPIy.
Kraugr:r: I thinl.. from an administrative standPoint Lhough it would help for
us to be able to clarify exactly what we're working with the homeowner to
achieve, fs some sort of a view corridor is to be created. I don't know
if we define that by Lhe size of the thing or the maximum number of trees
we would al1ow to be cut but we need !o clarify that here's the goal and
here are some guidelines on how to establish it so it's not coming down to
us going out there and if t^re're having a bad day saying no, you can't do
that -
conrad: It wouldn't hurt to do that. I think that would be a helpful
guidetine. At least the homeowners, the residents know ulhat we're shooLing
for rather than just wil]y nilty as sort of a gut feel . You knor^r the
bottom line for. me is, on Lhis ordinance is, I do,Iike it because iL
doesn'L have., a lot of stipulations. f! seems prelty simPle. And I guess
you knoul r,nr coming down on Lhe simplicity and sometimes I could be u,lrong.
But I do like it from, iL seems like one number and some intents here
accomplish quite a bit. And that's my comments.
Batzl i: Could yc)u summarize?
Planning Commission Meet i n9
AugusL 21,, 799f - Page 36
Conrad: I don't think I could.
Erhart: I think the
comme nts ?
OIsen: Paul Newman.
comments made by ASCS. L,lho was that who made the
Not the blue eyes.
Erhart: ActuaIIy clarified thaL, I think the reading quite a bit and
somehow r think we ought to get most of that in there. r wouldn't changethe setback though to 50 feet which leads us then to the theme of Lhediscussion tonig,ht of whether this affects your lot there. Is someone onthe staff familiar with this...
Olsen; tJhich part?
ErharL: I for get uhat Tour name r4as.
Olsen: Ari. I visited it with one of the engineers.
Erhart: Ok6y. Does Lhe area that he wants to build, doesir?that apply to
olserr : rt's r,rithirr the bluff impact zone. He does have a level area abovethe bl.rf f and then there is, he calls it a road but iL's mor-e like kind ofa gravel or just kind of a path thaL,s been used.
Erhart : l.^l lr ), can't you build on a f lat spot in the impact zone?
Olsen: tJhat his is, it's not really a real flat spot but there,s not muchf]at t-h'.,rc but it's the setbacks and aII of that would prohibit hinr fromusi ng t !rr- Irouse ther e -
Erhart i if i,r: hacl a bis enough spot, flat. on the bluff, does thisordirr.:nc,, alIot.: you to build?
0lserr; The definition a]lor.rs you, if you have a distance of 50 feet ormole, urith slope Iess than 182, that's not part of the bluff. I don'Lthink his applies. It's not 50 feet.
Erhart: Do you agree with that?
Ari Fuad: f guess I didn'L understand,
Olsen: The definition of bluff, if you havefoot distance, thaL's technology not wiLhin
Ari Fuad: Yeah, I think I've got that. Oh,There's a crown.
Olsen: Th.lt's something uJe can look at-
Ari Fuacl : It's a cro!.jn. f L's not a ridge,
less than 18%the bIuff.slope for 5O
it's 50 feet under 18r;?
it's a crown.
PIanni ng Commission Meet i ng
August ?l , 7991. - Page 37
Erhart: Yeah, f mean that's the thing
draw in the pictur-e but there is a Iot
Iittle mourrds thal come back up. I'm
on the bluff even with this ordi.nance
bluff is it's not like they
spots and in fact there's
that there's a lot of spots
could build on.
r"rith the
of f IaL
assum i ng
that you
Olsen: Oh sure but it's Lhe setbacks -
Ari Fuad: This ridse or whaLever which is acLually
feet across. Mavbe more- It's iust if you think of
around it...you're turning a 1OO foot circle into a
t he setbac ks .
a crown is mavbe
bluff all the way
40 foot circle.
100
ErharL: 1OO feet's not very much area to build on-
Ari Fuad; To build a house, loL widths are 80 feet r^ride' Then thev
10 foot setbacks trhich give you 60 feet which is plenty of room for a
house. Houses are only 40 feeL deep so a house fits on a Pad roughly
40. That's a fairlv J.arge house- That's 2,4OO square feet '
have
50 x
Erhart: Al'e you going to have any kind of a yard or drivewav?
Ari Fuacl : You've got 1oO f eet- square -
Erhart: Ar.e Lhere other houses that are there existing that are similiar?
O].serr: I !hin!: there'S one that kind of goes down a couP1e feet to the
wesl, I haven'L re.llly looked but th{lre's also sePtic sites on each lot'
These art urrs€-l/Jct ecj so there's a lot of imPact so the Setbacks is what's
hurtirrg him.
Ari Fuad: See Lhis ridge is 5oo feet long and so it's not, there's lots of
room laLerally to put in septic systems and wells and yard. It's jusL Lhe
3O foot setback makes, it could poLentially make the site too narrow to Put
the appr-opriate sized house on it.
Erhart: Thi:. house, does it sit out in lhe view of the other PeoPIe that
Iive out thcre?
Ari Fuad; There's one house.
Erhart: I tJonder wha! ttre olher two houses do?
o].sen: There's a row of homes. I couldn't tell you.
Erhart: No but I mean you're talking about having the homes
having one dowrr arrd out further or he had one or two or three
Olsen: Out- ar,d clown f urt her? He 'd be t-he furLhest doun. I
hle c ; r! : itc,w you .
up and then
out and down.
don'L know if
Lrhart: lnaf 's
object i o nable?
okay. Do you think if the house was there, is that
You're one of the existing homeowners.
Olsen: If the house were to be locaLed there?
PI'anning Commission Meet i n9
August 2l , 799f - Page 38
Ari Fuacl: It would be substantially below them so it wouldn'ttheir view and their trees, there'd actually be trees between,grou, up actually on my property that wouLd basically block.
really block -that Nou Id
you just start building the house righL now? Beforc
Emmings: Because he's got to geL a buildj.ns permit.
Ari Fuad: That's a good point.
Erhart: l^lh>' wouldn'tthe ordinance.
Verne Severson: tle're LaI ki ngbuild a wor kshop on my propertyI should have brought a map.
about individuaL rights tonight. Ibut with this ordinance I can,t do
want tothat.
Emnings: I'm going to cut out the talkins here.somebocly a specifi.c question 9o ahead but we canloose. [^]e'rc going to be here until midnight.
If you
'L have.
want to askIL's getting too
Erhart: Hzjv€ you talked about performance standards asge ner- a I oldirrance?opposed to a
Krauss r t,e really haven't arrd r think it's been for a number of reasons.There's no good model for us to wol'k off of that's based on performance.Solelv performance approach. [.le're not dea).ing wi!h commercia],/industrialdevelopers here uho can bring in consurtants at $12o.oo an hour to give uswhat we need to react to Lo effective).y deal uriLh specific standardi- youalso become fairLy erratic and inconsistent which is kind of a basic thingto avoid in enforcing ordinances.
Erhart: t^,hat's in here Lo prevent somebody from going in and doing a lotof bullciozirrg and stuff over the edge of the bluff?
OIsen: Tlrey'd have
Krauss: They're L)e
have a permit,
violaLion of the ordi nance.
to
irr
Erhart: If you look at that site and you basically
move clirl. Pretty much people do follow thaL.
Iay out where they can
olsen: The grading permit?
Erhart: Yeah. r guess what r was Lrying to ge! Lo there was, you know wepicked some numbers and things. r'm not sure, r know where we got thenumbers. t^Je got the rrumbers from the state program that,s putting this outbut where r uras going was r thought maybe Lhis would be an exampre to kindof test our numbers. f guess if I had the opportunity Lo go out and lookaL thai- rot I think would be real useful . on the. other hand r rearly thinkit's a needed, r think we definilery need protection and if you can't getit througl-r performance sLandards, then this is our only choice, AgainI woLrld har,,e I i ked to have seen that lot. I don't knor^r if it ,s worthwaiting. I don't know if that's the only reason why you'd t,ant to tableiL. I think uJe can get Lhe wording in without tabling it.
Planning Comnissiorr Meeting
August ?1,, 7991 - Page 39
Emrnings: okar'. Is that it? I've got a couPle of specific
I think Lacld's cornments about this being a simple ordinance.
are gooci corrments and I th j.nk that's a good way to approach
I think iL does a good job of Protecting the people ulho are
with homes. How it affects him I don'! know but l think if
tablinq it, we might use his property as a test case to see
and ma),be we can get the City Engineer between now and then
look at it- Or if he already has.
Ofsen: That's whaL we were
withirr the 30 foot setback,
accommodate homes
wanted to make an
things.I thi nk those
this situation.
already ther e
we wind up
how it affectsto go out and
that are already
addition.
within thaL area.their house for it
that ue, the die is
e already got some
Olsen: rle has .
Emmings: A]right. or maybe you could teII us how tue get lhere to Iook at
it or sometl-ring so we could see. But on the other hand, I don't think how
it affe-cts one person out of everybody on the bluff makes a difference to
the ordinancc buL stil} I think it's a useful test case. The comments Lhat
peoplc bu>' these ]ots for lhe specific purPose of having the vieu- You
know thc:re 'c restrictions on every kind of Iot that you buv - That's not a
reason to have restr_ictions on the Io!. I ]ive on Lake Minnewashta.
Boughl-_ en empL), Iot and had aII kinds of restrictions. I couldn't build
t^lith"in 75, feet of ttre lake. Maybe I could have said, gee if I'm going to
live on the Iake I warrL a house righL down there so I can steP off my deck
right irrtc, nry boat and go but I can't do that. so again that argumerrL
doesn't persua,,ic nre very much. But on the other hand, I think we've goL to
have , if t l-re vi€r^r is the maior Lhing that PeoPle are interested in, we've
got Lo havc a uJay Lo accommodate that. It's only fair and I think we do
ih"t thr.,rgli the further removal or alLeration of vegetation. And in mosL
cases thal oughL to be good enough I think. In some cases it might not be.
In sonre specific c:ases iL might not be. And that's Hhere you geL doNn to
the desire of t-hese people I think to have a site specific plan because
you've got the general regulation but you can get the sLaff to go out and
look at )o,-rr. individual piece and develop a plan along with the ciLy Lo
accorflm(,clit-e the desire to have a good view. I think maybe that's the best
of aII pr>ssible r,rorlds. In the statement of intenL section' in the third
Iine f r-c,nr the L,ottom- It says alteratiorr . The sentence starts out, to
preserve the character of the bluff impact zone t^lithin the City, alteraLion
to the bluff impact zone and I wonder if it should say' rather than
alteration to l-he zone. It should say alLeration to the land or vegetation
within the bluff impact zone, That was one thought I had. on structure
seLbacks number 2. It talks about the setback from the top of the bluff is
5 feet on parcels on which a building has already been constructed. I
don't know r,lhy it's 5 feet.
trying to
that L hey
Emmi ngs: t^lhy wc,u I cl
than 30?
ule let them build closer than Lhey are if they're le=s
Krauss: Because we already ]et them build their home
They may havc not added a deck. They mav have Planned
or planrre<j their house for an addition and we believe
cast, The home is alreadv where it should be. They'v
vested rights
Planning Commission Meet i ng
Augtrsl 27, 7991 - Page 40
Emn,irrg:-; To me I wc,ulci say there should be 5 feet or the existing setback,uhich is more. That would be my approach to that situation. I think it'sfine lhat we approve all of the houses that exist. I don't think there'sany reason to allow them Lo build closer just because they're alreadythere. Thc other thing, somehoh, in there we ought to make it clear thatthat's fc,r the existing building and not any neu, buildings. So that'ssomething that should b,e added in abou! that r think. Then the only otherthing, under the official map section, L4O6 it says, Lhe Arcticle appliesonlv to thc bluff impact zone located on the official bruff impact zone mapdated June 1,199!. r just think after that it should say, as amended frbmtime to tirre. rt does say in the next sentence that it can be amended buti.t sLiII says that it only applies to what,s on Lhe map so that coutd be aproblem. And f guess I agree with the people who,ve ta] ked about tablingthi: onc s. ure can have another look at all of these. The comments thatha'.,e t.:,'-,n riade b)' these other bodies and also maybe get a chance to look atthis propcr-Ly if he'II let us go ouL and walk around.
A,r i F UA':l'd be glad to meet you out there.
Bat:Ii: S,oni.- of thc comments made by these peopl
e'i t h.-.r' . I .r:,n't hlant us to just add the cc)mmentsaren't- r i,f ts,t -
I don't think make sense
because some of them
e
Erhsrt: Yeai- right.
Qlserr : You've got to pick out which ones you think are ri.sht.
B.:Lz I i : L i kc- fot example when the comntent ,chalscteri:tics is incorrect given how ue,reThat shoLrl.dn't be added. Things that don't
we ,.r;r n+- t o s-o through thenr nc)w or if we just
thear ani t.:.l.i, a look at Lhem.
one or more of the follouingdefining what the bluff is.
make sense and I don'.t. know ifwant to let Jo Anrr go throush
Emmi ngs: I would euggest we take another run at this thine.
like to see us set up a time. I'd Iike to getat Lhat.
afLer noon? Mor ni ng? Night?
weekend it could t,e an afternoon.
the evening.
Erhart: I HouId
Go out and look
olsen: Okay.
the tour.
Emm i ngs: I f
Some
it 's a
ErharL: OY 6:OO in
Ctlsen: Okay.
Emming: Yeah, somethi ngIike table it.Iike that. Is there a motion to do somet.hing here
Olserr : M':)t-.e !,Je can
tab I cd ..: l:,: r ight ?
Emnr i ngs: Yeah
try to get Orlin Schafer here. The other one was
Plannin? c-cmmission Heet i ng
August 21 , l9ol - Page 41
0Isen: Tha','s right
of people who calIed.
Batzli: f move that the Planning Commission table
allow sLaff time to levieu: the amendments proPosed
entitiec and so that we can go out and take a Peak
Emmings: I'Il second it. Is there any discussion?
Olsen: S'o we'l I try
Emnringr, : f: there a
to g€L orlin here for boLh of Lhem.
tax quesLion on this one?
Nobody brought it up. Never mind. There uerc a Iot
this, matter in order to
by Lhe various other
at some of these sites.
Amendment to
for further
your comment s
review this
ui L I be looking
BatzI i
cr ea te
revieu -
moved, Emmings seconded to table Zoning Ordinance
a bluff Iine preservation section to the Citv Code
AII voted in favor and the motion carried-
Emming=: People ulho made comments tonight should know that
get type.l uP and will be Part of the packet tle have when ue
next Lint. NoL to discourage you from coming again but ule
at t h€.m again.
(.J cra rr
votes
Alrre n, left the meeting at thjs point and was not Present in the
on arr;, FulLher iLems. )
PUBLIC HEAR rNG;
ZONIN G AND ST'BDIVISION ORDINANCE AMENDHENT TO AHEND SECTIONS REGARDI NG
LANDSCAPING A ND TREE PRESERVAT ION REOUIRE MENTS ,
Publ ic Present :
Nam A r ESS
Oon E. HaIla
Mar k HaIla
10,OOO Great PIains Blvd.
77O Cr ee kNood
Kathy Aanenson pl-esented the staff report on lhis item. chairman Emmings
called the public hearing to order.
Erhart moved, Batzti seconded Lo close the public hearing- All voted in
favor and the motion carried- The public hearing uras closed-
Erhartr First- page, Page 2. I would very much like to see the
Attorney, someone work on LimiLing the Power companies ability
and spray. t^lhat's Lhe next steP on that?
to clear cut
Aane n3c,n; \'ou wc,uld Like him to direct him to come back with something
Lh;.ji- r.ro1l j pr,:iriL.it tl].t?
Erhart: Ye.ih, t.hat's uhat I'd Iike.
Emmings: Arrd then ue'II send it to aII the Power companies that have
transmissic,n Ijnee in this city. Put them on ncltice so they've got no
€XCU;-;.:
Planni n; Coarrrrission Heeting
Ausust 21 , 199L - Page 42
Aanenson: I'Il see ohat his directi.ve is.
Emmings: I think iL's important once it's passed to send it to them.
Er ha r', :
They're
Erhart:
were we
a gr eed
Krauss:the City
Aanenson:
Erhart:
Emli i ng:: :
i r?
Er hart :
tJeI I whatever .
goi ng !o Iook atthat ue wanted to
I really thinkstreet widLhs?
look at?
IJeII ue're going tc, have to havegoing to have to come and give us
a public hearing I assume.their comments .
h,e ought to do this. Number 2,
[,Jas that something that we aI I
I thouglrt we had a directive from you to have the City Council askEngineer Lo dc that along wiLh the Lundgren proposal .
You did want thaL forwarded
I t l-rirrk it's a good icjea.
rlr'. you L.al king abor.rt doing
to City Council?
this as a part of this or just doing
Nc,, iur:l in general . It happens to be the first page.
Krauss: ft's not part of the landscaping or-dinance. It's part of thesubdivision but it affec:t= landscaping through preservation issues.
Emming:; Yesh, if you're interested in getLing a canopy,
Erhart: Alri3l-,t now I'11 get into Lhe ordinance. On theordinarr(te, Di,",ision I " 1s that supposed Lo say generally first page
or genera I
of the
there?
KraLrsc: C.;enera.] ly.
Erhart: That's the term you're using huh? on tlre bottom of page l there,Ne 3.:i' r^rhrr : buf f e ring is required by the conrprehensive plan. can we usethe ccnprehensive Plan as a docunrent Lo refer to in ordinances...r^rithspecifics? ttell I know but there's a standard then-
Aanenson: That's the guicle.
Erhart: Okay. I 'm just checking.
Emmings: l^le. specifically tied those together.
Erhart: Item G, at Lhe very top of the next page . t"je hav a generalstatement and maybe, I don't understand it but it says boulevardstreetscape plan shalI be pursued by the city. rs that a general sLatementor hour is that. Nhy is that there?
OIsen I Intent -
Erhart: That's in the intent section.
Planni n9 Comnission l'4eeting
August, 27, f991 - Page 43
Kraus's: I t '
is when tho
incorpc,rate
downtown.
Erhart: Oka'z-, so that whole sectiorr
action reqr.rired, okay. ILem (a) in
we've geen a ]ot of P]ans that theY
malure size of them.
s. a gerreraf statement. I think the wav we'd bring that about
City Iooks at public improvement Projects we would ask that iL
the LrouLevard pl.anting effort much the same as you've done
lhere is general? There's no real
the middle of the Page there. I think
draw Lhese trees that they show the
Ellson: You guys wouLd never do thaL would you?
we're going to show the installat-ionErhart:tje're aII in agreemenL that
I just Hantec.i to verifY that.
Emrni ngs: tlhy wor,ildn'i yo, want to show the mature size?
Erhart: That 's ohy I'm asking.
Kraus.,: J'nr ncrt so sure it i.s a change. It's a clarification'
Krauss: IL depends on u,hat they give you. If they get the kind with the
t.ree stamF, then il's up to imagination ' If vou get a rendering or
elevation t^rhere Lhr: arLists takes some Iicerises and shotts this 2 L/2 i'nch
maple becoming e 50 fooL high tree. You're going to have to use some
judgnrent_ on there. t,Jhat we ask for though is u,e get a key that tells you
**.itty what planL maLerial is going to be planted and exactly what size it
is at i nstal lation .
Erhar+. : I t ts,.i;'rl: the drar,rings that we mosLly see are the nrature size. JuSt
so w= undel-sL.rn'l tlri: is a change.
L Don HalIa: Frankly the size on landscape drawings. . .relative size of
trees... tt is the landscape artist or designers view of what it looks
I proporlionat-e. That-'s Lhe bottom line. If vou want something to be
\- difierent, then you have to call iL oul. It's ProPortioned to what's going
to be appealing to You folks.. -
I frhart: t^leL1 I don't know what the answer is. I iusL bring it up because
this is an issue that's kind of bothered me as b,e Iook at these, aII these
Iandscape issues. Page 4, item c(3). It says the ciLy may require the
replacement of removed trees on a, it actually starLs in number 2. You
l- can't remove any 6 inch caliper trees unless you can shot, lhere's no way to
avoid iL. I couldn't agree b,ith that more. But Lhen we go on !o say the
city may require the replacement of Lhose Lrees if they're r'emoved and
t- I guess' I 've alt^,ays felt , and I know thaL's in the ordinance todav ' I 've
always fetL it,g puniLive and it doesn't need Lo be there. If they ehow
yo, Lh.'t Lheir:'s no hiav to avoid removing them, that's it ' [^le've done a
continue to think that that's puniLive -
EIlson: l-low 's that different
that s.ri of thi ns?
from asking Lhe bluff People Lo not continue
Planrri rrJ L-ornmission He€ti ng
Auguet 27, 199! - Page 44
Erhart: [^,h) are you doing that? If you're going to deve]op something, putin a street, you've got Lo remove trees. Then to go back in and replace
them adds more expense ultimately to someone and I gues$ it bothers me morethat that same wording is in the subdivision ordinance.
Batzl i :
they can
have to
on the I
Erhart: f 'nr just giving
5 Lhere right afi-er whereis enc.c,uragld arrd may be
does that serrtence mean?
my opinion. I just don't think it,s.it says $4,OOO,OOO.OO. It says treeapplied to exjsting vegetation on the
c
p
ta
ot
o if for some reason they have a uretland where the only placeut the driveway is between the lot line and the uJetland and theyke out every tree, you uouldn't make lhem plant more than 3 treesif they had to remove 50 trees to get the driveway in?
Erhart: No I wouldn't. rf that's the only place you could put the. ueLlwe're not talking about a driveway. tje're talking about a street here.
Ell.son: tJe-j're hopins the)"re looking for alternatives than the clear cut
r^/ay.
Page numberpreservation
site - Hhat
Kr au a':l
Emrii ngs: I.lothi ng -
I knor,r what it's supposed to mean.
Emming:,: Hrre's what I think it means. f wrote a neuJ one.pre=ervation is errcouraged and the value of existing treesas part of the "minimum landscape value,,-
fL says t ree
may be i nc I uded
Erhart: Okay, that makes sense,
Krauss: Or the value is determinedto deternri n: whri thc value is-by the City. I don'L knou urho,s going
Emnrings: I don't either but Lhat's what you're lrying to say.
Krauss: That's exactly what the inference was, yes.
Erhart: T hat
by Don Halla.
Don llal Ia:
eva I ua ti n9
little r^rording j.n it would helpGot a job forever and ever.
there. Value as deter rn i ned
olsen; I 've used him for that before.
-. .thele is a National Shade Treeexisting tr ees .
Conference method of
Emm i ngs :
Ellson:
Krauss: C.l i-r uie get a
Don Halla: Yeah it'=
Oh that's interesting.
9c, that 's inrpartial to
ho ld of a
the City "
copY?
available.
Plannin:t Cr-.,mrnissiorr Meeti ng
August ?1 , !99f - Page 45
Erhart: orr it€.nr (a) there, if I carr read Lhis. It savs, I hope )'ciu got
thi,: to, :,t.,,,'lj. IL saTs driv= thru uses shal] be screened or buf fered
urhenevc r lc,cated in an>. residential , commercial, industrial zone except
singl; f .rr,i Iy reeide rc,es in the A-1 , A-2, RR and RSr. Does that read funny
or arn f jus:t dcn't understand?
Aanenson: f'm sorry, I'm not sure exactly where you are.
Erhart: Page s, item (a). About 5 or 6]ines down- It says any
residen+-iaI, corrmercial or indusLrial zone excePt single family residences
jn the A,-1, A-2 and so on and so on. I guess I iust couldn't.
Ll lsor,: 'rou
sa>'i ng?
carr have a dr.ive thru in your residence, is that r'rhat you're
--Irst -- iir- r.:ordi ii3 seems odcl . l'laybe I jue L don't catch i! . Is iL
Kraug,s: i,.r-u;l l:' I !hirrk it's Norded
impty Ll-.;;L thosc things trouldn'L exist
coulcJ hav: t-hosrc ki rrCs c,f things in a
that up.
kind of cLunkily but it's meant to
in a single family district.. You
multi-f amily district. tile can clean
what the professional writers say
Okay, then let's go to Lhe
Erhlil.: \..-.1 , n';.'ie -
about it ;16pr i.h: l inr:
subdir,,i::iorr or di rra nce -
.L GDN
her'e.
kncw. See
Let's see.
Ellson: t"lhat' pa?e are you on?
Erhar-l: J'r, rrour on Page 10. tje just got off Lhe site Plan ordinance-
lJhen L^r.: ,,:.t down Lo Lhe required landscaPing/r'esidenLial subdivisions, item
I . !,i; : eqr:ir-e- the trees to be insLalled and I'm okay with the trees. At
leaet- r,re ,r'.. n.r! telling people they have to Put in their back yard, which I
really obje.cted to thst concept Previously. Notl they have their choice but
r^,e are }.cquiI ing one to go in the front yard. I think that's good ' t''hen
u,€ get. clc,r.,, n to guarantees acceptable to the city must be provided to ineure
timely installaiion. Can one of those guaranLees be a tree certificate
from Fialla Nursery?
Krauss: [.!e've' accepted Lhat. This
about a year and a half nouJ and some
sod certificates or Presumably they
trhich is a cash redeemable value.
lenient on thaL.
Krsu:: Llt.'.,ril b.-rrrrr doing that
r.rillir': to accePt basicallY.
Erharr-: Okay, r,rel I I
iL seem..; simpler t han
js a process we've been going with for
of the Iarger builders regularly give
could also give a tree certificale
That's fine wiLh us. We've been fairlv
adrninistrat-iveIy. It's a surety ure're
Erhart: okay. Chaska's orclinance, from what I understand ' that is
chask_i's ordinance. Apparently according to Rick Murray it seems to work
okery - If it's okay, do r,Je want to menlion that as an alternative?
i.t because
here is you
just question if we maybe want to mention
all the rest of this. okav, the next one
Planning Commiseion Meet i ng
August 21 , !997 - Page 46
can waive the requirement for turo of Lhe three trees if you have trees
aJ read;. on the lot which nrakes sense. t,hat I can,t understand therat-ionale is, why thosa-i trees don't have to rneeL the same specs that hJe,redefining in'the ordinance. Instead, aII of a sudden now, if you,re goingLo use an existing tree, it has to be 6 inches caLiper. r don't understandthe rationaLe behind that.
El.lson: Nhy are you saying 6
be great to ta ke
i nches?
Batzli: He'd along fishi ng .
Erhart: You know therr you 90 back and it goes against the one here that,skind of, whaL did you say, clunky? The concept in the clunky one sa/sthat if y'q,l've got e>:isting nraterial, oka), we,lI give you reasonable fairvalue on that- rt jusL seenrs Lo me it ougl-,L to be just simple, if r canus,e La,C.:l ':: cc,nccpls: .
using those entirely Loo much.
Erhnrl; The. 9'-t),'S gct a coniferous tree that,s 6 feet and 2 trees that are31/2 inih caliper and one of thern is in the frrrnt yard, Nh/ do we ha,,,e tcsay' thr:'. in ordr.r +"o apply that he has Lo have a 6 inch tree? It just
seeme Ii l..e ni:'r'e ge LLing punitive on people. go I guess that's my thoughi .The c,ther thirig is, if ue are real]v hung up on forcing Lhese guys to havc6 inch tr?r..-, I think we oughL to add in ther.e if the developer can shor,rthaL e:,:.r'nti:. Il;. the tot is woc,cieci with smaLler Lrees. It,s crazy for usti rnal - l-1,: i3r.t 7 puL ir eomc rr),rr'(- t)-ees, 9o r just ask that we look at thaL;i li'.tle t,it anc applv a liLLle nro:'e sensitivity. Again the same thing onPage 1l th.jr.j, Tl-ri-. Cit-y nra) requirc replacenrent of removed trees. I justdon't u,'r,-1rt-:tanr! thnt. Arrd you l"l nour ).ou guys I love trees more than
a ny,br,,,C."' r.i-r)r.rnl ht-r': an,i think r.re oughL to be, welL not anybody but almostas much ;..: Don hr:re.
li
Don HaI]ir: I don't know,
Don Haliar oh, if is in
Ellson: There's something
I didn't spoL that in my quick...
abc,ut the drip line or something.
' l-a
Don i:alla: Guick question fc,r you. gomething which you might con:.ide ru.rith 7-oUr i'cli rrarice and 1-hat is, lrhen they're doing const.rition near oaktre.-3 D;- ri t-[, c,a k L.ees on it and they're tryirrg to prevent danrage, theyhave to l..eep equipment off of it. From underneath the canopy.
Emmi rr3s: tle've clc,ne that .
Em;r'i ngs : I rr t he past i{e
some I i:r:: i-le 'vr. I'equ i r-r:d
cf f .
f rhrrt: Th:;1
conJiLion=.
there?
've r equ i red
them to put somet i mes ,
snow fe nce
not alL the times but
around and keep equipment
s jn th*. subdivision Flrocess we require it usually in the
Planni n3 Cc,nrmiision MeeL i ng
t:tt-,tt-. L -1 t.-, 1 - O;,ot A7
Don HaIle,: /rn<.j ;'c,t-i can't' even bury trees- You can Put 2 foot of fiIl on
top of t h,-- tlec, you can do it right and not damage the tree but it has to
be dc-,nc. in the proper method. So som6 of those things are, I don't l'now
how you daal urith those but definitely as far as driving over the roots of
a certajn variety cf lrees, it's definitely harmful . Also some of the
trees, and I don't know what you have as sPecies but some of the varieties
you may rrot want to be left and count as your 6 inch Plus trees. swamP
Rose or- Box Elders or some of those types of trees ' ' '
ErharL: tle haven't got the ]ist yet so that's to come from wha! f
understanc. Lastly item (e) on Page 11. Righl on Lhe bottom it savs,
tree removal not permitted under subclivision shall not be PermitLed without
Lhe approval. Llho does that aPPIy to? Just sub-developer?
frari. rr:.c,i : Lllrich ctna are you on? I 'm sorry '
Er-h;rt : It..nr ( c ) - p3cae l\. I jus'- want r-o make sure thaL
the r,e i'son tl-rat's cioinii a subdivision. It doesn't applv tc'
Kralrs:.: i think whar- we're trying Lo get at thele is that nobody should be
ut,ie io e!,) out anci cut down a grove of oak trees just because they had a
t',rnt,..rir',:*,odr,it"f!'snotm€antLoapplytoanindividualhomeowner'
of the one norlh of CitY
someone who comes in and
only appl ies to
anybody eIse.
Hal I here .
is doing a
Erh-i'-: \'e.al,, :I -iusL
Kraus:: Arrd r,.re shou ld
wa rrt to
clarify
I think that's
ordinances onlY
make sure.
ir.
L mri. I ;r
I just want to nrake sure Lhis doesn't apply to Do:-r Ha]la' so it
c.-.r nirr-,t- r a,mD!rr'i lree5.
(ri me,
(ir sLev€'. ]t just applies Lo someone thaL's doing a subCivision
0Isen: night.a result
apply toErhart: These
subdivis,ion?
OLsen: Yes. He just can't go and clear cut.
Erh.rrt: A1r ighL . Those al.e my commenls. You've got it ' Next '
conrad: Go(,d comments. I don't know, he rnay uJant to skip around'
Somr.t inne s h: d,:'e',s Lhat.
tr-.' i, -,.- !-t,n.l l a'>
Ellsc,n: oh thanL yoLl s,teve. This is an examPle of not simple' Ladd and
bci-r,.r::e ,,:. f tir.:.', L.)ok, how long iL took them Lo put this togeLhcr ' I didn't
s,.: tlr;-c.ui;h it rrear 1>, as detailed but I love it. I'm urondering has anyone
err.,. dor]. en ana lysis as to what this is going to change Lhe cost of the
cleveLopnierrt r^,1- :nything l ike that? DeveloPers taking a Iook Lo s3y I think
PIanni n3 Ccmr;ission Meet i ng
Augl,st 21-, 7c9t - Page 48
it': '.r:i rrar tLr co:t us ntc).e to build in Chanhasserr and therefore weAnl if --: , t:1' 5,:,r ;;iui:h. I like to rnake these requiremenls but are
s;a;'i n3 *. l:L Ll,i: i-, gl,irrg tc) m6ke low j.ncome housirrg impossibJ.e inChanh-::.i:n cl eomet hi ng I i ke LhaL .
can't,
peop I e
Krauss: Host of the standards that are invorved in this ordinance eitherevist todav in the ordinance or are Laken from othey ordinances that ve
wor ked with for vears in other communities and have been fairly reasonable.For exarnple t-he sliding minimum expenditure for the Iandscaping materialbased on building cost. In several years of working with it over inMinnetonka r can onrv recall one inst.ance where the deveLoper had not metthe minimums anc in that case he was ]ying about the building cost and itHas a 7 story office building. It really is a pretLy minimum reguirement.and r.rhen younre lalking about the magnitude of building, f 've got tobeli+v; i;r terr,rs of that expenditure, mos+- everything we've seen even tod...te l.::,,:it' t'r'ceed it -
EIIson: It 's dcable?
Yea lr .
I -'iust don't uant to feel Iike we're choking pec,ple.
Krau6s: The one inrpact the+- is a direct impact though and ute've talkedyou knor,r Counc ilnrarr llirrg'e L,een a L ig aclr.,o:.ate c'f the 3 trees pe r loL.spoirerr r-:' /c,-: .rL-.out it - He's spoken Lo us about it a number of times -That ie a cli rec.t coet that will be passed a.Iong Lo the homeowner andtlreI.c',: r,, qL,ee Lion about it, that's going to raise the co.t of a hcmesome €xt( irt.
to,
He 's
t-o
Ellsrrr : i.il,-, 1- cio tlrese size trees m:arrincreasr I A h:If cf pcrccnLagc but noLh;t l:irrcl of analys!:?
to the totaJ. percenLage?
onc's evcr conre forth and
Onegiven you
Kraues: l.]o, but if you assume the average home,
homcJ pr i(:.: i n Chanhassen is probably $1OO,OOO.OO
homes and ue 're placing a value on a new tree ofthe price by $5OO -OO because you already requirehalf of one percent?
the inexpensive averageto $12O,COO.OO for new
$250,OO, you've i ncreasedone. So trhat is that, one
EIlson: u-]1, I love it.it's greal-.The sooner we get it in the better. I think
Emmi ng=: Okay. Brian?
Errnring:: l,.,llri. t a L.,unch of ... The nroeting's out. of control . Go ahea,.i.
BaLzIi: I Nanted Lo go afLer Ladd.
slad this is het'e anci I think LhatI'nn slad that. . .wil1 be it - If the
L.ri*.lrout. foresLation, we've got a Iotpiece.
Farn.:1 ,,-:: I 'nl
.Le gislalion.
Chanhasscn i:
This is : 9o::l
this
DNR
of
said
wol k
realIy good
that 95:z of
ahead of us.
PIanni r,3 fomrrriseion Heeting
August :i, 19c7 - trage 49
Conr;-C: Real quickly. Jumping orr Tim's bandwagon- Under the subdir"ision
ordinance. I agree with his commenls on Lrees that are there. If thev
meet the requirements, I don't know that we should uPgrade those
requiremenLs all of a sudden. So I agree in that secLion (a)(1)' or
wahtet,er. I think Ne should look at that. My olher comment on that is,
where it onl>. applies to 2 eLlt, of Lhe 3 required trees. Now I don't kn;L.l
if you,re in a wooded area, I don't have a need. If it meets the intent.
If we havc., one tree on the roadside and the other trees are on Lhe other
backyard sicle, I don,t Lnow why we're saying only 2 out of the 3 trees.
ThaLis sort oi, if it meets the intent that we're trying to establish in
the other sections, then this is sort of arbitrary. This is a different
intenl alLogether-. Eo I don'L like that section. It should be consis+-ent-
r,rith thc' :-est cf t.he ordina.nce, I think Don brought uP a good Point aLrout
con:t:'r-ri.L,.-)i-i otri ing a subdivision and we feel we don'L need any of Lhosc
r eql ! r er.,e:rt, e in this?
Emming:,:; LadJ , ready?
CIser-r :r .-, i,lcl kirg on t-h.lt Part .
K;;,t,::'
I.. : r, :i r-.
thcu;;!r
guaral'
a,lr) aa
i-e crrr.ir j. rrg that f or years . tle have standard .Ianguage
,-.,, sLick it in here.
c:c,r,;.;cl . I ilrir,i !i-'ci rearlly like that. IL just is a real Iogjcal thing to
dc, ai-, :l ,i,' r,l:Ir i..'n,ii'r''l'" is, .rr,d t': c changed it aL the last nrecting' I'i:t
Laf f l=,:r .. , I c'..rr 'L underst-arrd it so I 'n sure there's a re'^) simple Nry to
r,r.i l.: n',; r., :'r -li i ', '- :] n il it. Ctr pag. 5 of Lhe equaLions. The lagi tilTr':, if +-h-'
n; 1' j;ci. ,; lr,,c js $3,OCO,OOO.OO to $4,OOO,OOO.OC, we slash Ll-rt $3,oCO,CCC 'OO
in L,.: rn: .;f ltci: l,r(: c; Icul.rte what thei- have to Pay and PuL dor.rn 2. Io uhal
d... 1. lrz:t- r:r':.'rrrl lf iL's i tc, l, Ne say you've got to spend $2O'OOO'0O
exc.:::- ,-'1- t- l-, - L'.-;,"'t plus 1e; pasL that. Then wiLh the next grade is 2 to 3
and spi'ntl $.3i,,C:f -OC plus O.75e: in excess. Then it gels to 3 to 4 an'J then
:. ]. I .r , ::.-:1-ri;. i..''r i, b.:ck t. the 2- In excess of 2 and Lhat seems Iik'
L-:e 'r,: a i,qr-:'rnr-1.:l i.t- It doesn'r- rnake sense.
Krausa; Thel-e is a tyPo in there.
Aanenson: The c'orrecti.on wae reversed.
Emminge: Should have crossed o(tt 2 and Put in 3-
Conra.i: AII that conversation is all that simple.
Emmings: Brian?
okay.That's it,
ily c-otrrnrerrts are on E age 2 We're going !o get an irrevocable le*'ter
from .-: L'anking institution and mv f irst thought, said just as
ol-:e r,r.:s that it must be a solvent banking institution. I really
bouL it-, I think whal we want to do is we urant to sav in here and
ere jrr a, couple of sPoLs that we're looking for financial
: Lhat are acceptable to the citv. I mean Lhey can Post a bond '
d cl,:, e, 1o1. of Lhings. They don'L need a letter of crediL,
:-: h
!_aa
oul
t^
PI.-l nr,i r, :
ALr gL, art : 1
Cclr';;r .::r:i crt Mc,t-Li ng
1C<1 - Or-. r.n
Krau:r: TrLre, although the Cjty Attorney has encouraged us not to accept
bcrr-,,:j:. Th;t l-,.:, r,,j: are much har dr,r to collect on if you do have a problem.
Fic.'s a,-iv;sed r.r:. tc, us€. c:ash or letters of credit but you're right. It's ir,a forn accepLal-.Ie to Lhe City and I understand Don raiseC a quesLion al-..,-:u t
mal'.i ng s-Jre i.;-,c trees are alive af ter a year. Our Ietter of credit is goocifcr a fuII grouing season past the date of installation and that's uhen urp
i nspec t th€ nraterial -
Batzli; I thirrk that shculd somehor be standardized Lhroughout here.Eve'yLimc r.re LaIk about it, u,e say it in a IitLLe bit different r.ray. I,dlike to sec, just proper financial guarantees acceptable !o the City orsomethin-: lil:e Lhat that the Attornev's comforLable rith. r went beyond+'he int.;r'- c,f this wiren r was Iooking at the i.ntent section and that was, ri.:r't re-.tlli' , I mean f see us being proactive but I don't see us educating. n)/[i.)':]:.' q", t-ryi ng to get them to see the pc,int or the people who eventuali.z.!-.r,' il-, , tr.-1i..,l/ Lo see the point of why we did aII Lhis. So LJe're makingthe cl,-ve loFcr= di, this a ncJ then all the contrqls are off and errerythirrg anclJ u;r',:'r:.:ar,i l::'t e na! going Lo sa;- to thc propel-ty ouJners yorr can't_ doernTti,ir-, +-i *r,/ c,f this stuff necesserily but r woulc like Lo g,ee some sortof p;:;:t, j'.,: effcr t by the City Lo educ.ate the people who are buying the=eproF,€r't::'- z:-. t() ,rh) the stuff is thera. l^lhf, it.,s nice to have trees. tJhyit'=;c:C;r:t ..r., I dor':,L I,;nor.: - I'd Iike to sse an intent sLatement_ thatthe a jt-)'': :rr,irrg to cjo sornelhing, They''re going to educate the people. Tdon'l krr':rr,:.
Far na [:e :. : In the news]etter?
E.:t:ji: Y:,-,1". GoinS t.: cj,: ::.irr.: r: l:i rrg t_o t,:ll people you knor.: you'vc 3;.1-t l-ri: r.. .,.r' ,'ir-, I s,tuf f . You --hould keep it . \,o1, shouldn'L just cut it down.Oi .i ' ;'.^ C:..:'.rr-,.v Llris you're going to br cont-ributing to the non-points..urlr. ::.llr]*.irr c,t if yc,tr d:, this, I don't know. I'd Iike to see someburrl: ' ' ..i r., th: CiLy irr h.:r e, th.): the/'r'e going to rJo someLhing.
Batzli: Nc- l.lo.
It-:-rot a bad iclea. There's a IoL of park and Rec stuff .
lirau::':: You
"-.-
going to s€e more and r,rore things in fact Iike the surfacet.Jaler District in the news.Letter coming up. I think to a certain extentthough we trust in the, or u,e. have some faith placed in the inherent Hisdomof the homeowner.
Krauss: But general ly.
nai-:li: :.jr (an't be twc, faced. tJe just
buil --.1 n:;.'i t.: a bluf f . l,.t e can'L now eay
+-r e l--- -
told people ue don't trust you Lo
we trust you not to cut down your
lirau... i t]. ll I think there's two different thirrgs c,perating here. rn onec6st': yDlr'ri- Ce:Iing with an environmentally sensitive area and the otherone r..re 'rt ,:l:alirrg with something tha!'s not a matter of life end death.Ii '-, 6 qlr"iri- i air c.1" good judgment . The homeouner .
Eat;: I i i 1+. m..,' or may not t,e .
PIanni t'rg Commission Meeti ng
Augusl 21 , L99f - Page 51
Krauss: But the homeor,rner's paid for these trees. It's their otln vaLue. I
mearr they're cuLLing their own throats bv cuLting those trees.
BatzIi: AII I want. is an education Program
cutLing their ouln throat. I don't want the
I just t^ra nl l-he City to educate People.
Don HaIIa: There's quite a fetr PamPhIeLs Put
Association of Nurservmen that deal with Nhat
survival depends on vou and things Iike that -
to get them
City to say
to realize they 're
you can't do it,
out by
you 'r e
the Amer ican
aski ng . Green
Batzli: They may never read them but I'd love to have some sort of
proactive p)-ogram by the city to do more of this. As far as Tim commenL
tnut I hisseci earlier on Page 4, c(3)- Caliper inch bv caljper inch' This
is or,.., ,:rf thQse thi,rrgs where I kind of agree wiLh Tim in principle but I
clon't war,t to tal':e it out. In certairr instances it tlould be punitive to
mak€ Lhem do thaL but in other instances they make them go in Lhere and
clear c:ut it because they come up with some cc.,ckimamy excuse urhy they have
to do it_ ar:d yuu don't make them replace anything- You may lose a lot of
valual-.,Ie tree3, and }ose arr oPPortunity tO make them reforest something.
conlad; You don't like Tim's idea? The one I jumped on the bandwagon'
Erhart: NQ, he:'s talking abouL this one.
66py6j: r\h !
I'd like to see it in
because I don't know
T i rn wanLs !o
anybody else
see it ottt.
feels about
[^le have noir.a nd
how
Batzl.i:
co nse nsu s
F mm l n.t!i:
Batz I'i.
Lr hart :
reflect
Batz I i :
appr ov i ng
concr ete
Let's
oka)' He
I thi rrk
that i n
go hc,nre.
've two leave in and one
the consensus is going
a motion.
against it.
Lhe Council.
out.
Lo ]eave it in so I')I
ta ke
!o be
Batzli: In 5(a). l read Lhat and I didn't understand it but I didn't
change it. That one where it says, iL applies everywhere except not in
RSF. I didn't understand what iL was so I didn't change iL because I
couldn,t figure out how to change it because I didn't know uhat it meant.
On page 7, aII landscaped areas shall be connected by concrete curbing.
Emmings: ThaL's inLerior Iandscaping in Particular uses -
Yeah I know. f was just, for example. I seem Lo recall us
som.:t-hing in the IOP where we let the guv blacktop and not put in
c.ur L,i ng
Erhart: N,:,t n're . I voted
olsen: It. gc,t approved by
PIanning Commission Meet i n9
August 2l , 1991 - Page 52
Batz-I i : Does LhaL l'rapperr more Lhan just Ii ke f rom time to time and how
does i lr.. L al'fect this?
Olsen: It's kind of rare when it happens. UsuaIIydon't geL much of a landscaping plan either.when thaL happens you
Batz]i: Yeah. I mean would this be something that ulould be waived in acase like that? Or is this just one more thing that you throu, at them andsay no, you've got to put in the curbing because our Iandscape plan saysyou've sot to do iL?
Olsen; Because they
seuler or anythi ng so
don't have any curbing, they don't have the stormit's where it's. . .
Batzli: small matter on a big ship apparently. on page 10, section 1g-51 ,(aXI)' The sentence that reads trees must be installed prior to receivinga certificate of occupalcy or financial guarantees acceptabre to the citymust be provided. I think that should go at the end of the paragraph.Then it makes sense when you say Lhe next sentence. This requirement maybe waived for up to 2 of the required trees because you're tarking aboutthe sentence before that. r wouLd like to see, r think the Ha]la's werementioning that maybe ue waive it as long as the trees they've got on siteare something that's worth saving-
BatzIi:
Erhert:
Krauss:
Er lral t :
Batz I i : Yeah,
make thenr p).ant
So we'Il provide the list on,
going to provide a
okay good. Those
Erhart: Frorn what f understand we're I isL .
are my comments.
forth comi ng .
trees, don't you urant to
someLhi ng?
I thought f read here someplace that a list was
It- should also apply to.
Krauss: f guecs I'd be reLunctant, I've been relunctant to establish alisl of acceplable trees that we Nant preserved because you can have somepretty junky material but en masse it's a valuable thins to have. Foiexample ' as you're coming down TH s you're entering the city on the southside in front of the DataServ or as you're coming through there. There's aJ.arge grove of hishly visible trees that separates that area from where thenew testing station is. That material's garbage but it,s the only greenspot in the enlire strip of hishh,av and r want to be abre to insist thatsomebody protect that even if it is junk.
BaLzIi: But this is just for the purpose of giving a credit for new treesthaL they have to insta]I. That's !,rhat I,m saying.
Krauss: t^lel I we mav want to have that f lexibility to do that on that site.we're going Lo have to work wiLh whoever develops those properties Lo saveLhose areas.
Yeah but the IisL appli.es Lo new pLantirrgs.
if they have nothing, buL junk
couple of Lrees that are worth
but
a
PIanni ng Comrnission Meet i ng
August 27, 7997 - Page 53
Kraus:: No quesLion,
Emmi ngs: Alright, Iet's
it's going to be Pursuedfor it.
Krauss i That's right. tle
ulay. If the cable company
some t. h j ng e1se. Yeah.
Emmings: I'd Like to ask,90 back to Tim mentioned as the first one that I
had down as a question too and even after you talked to him about iL I
still dc,rr 't understand it. That's item (9) under the intent section. It's
at the Lop of page 2. It says boulevard and streetscaPe planLings shall be
pursur,d L,y the City. What do you mean that the City's going to Pursue it?
BatzIi: Hor,J about e nc our a ged?
o.Isen: As. part of the thing that we're uorking with the DNR, one is the
ref orc,|staliorr . That might have been what that was trying to get at. That
Ne alre going tc, Iook at also the urban reforestation in the downtown areas.
Emming.,: Oke;' , bLrL this is under our intent section. t'lhaL is it saving?
t^Jhat is it gaying about our intent because I don't understand i!.
Krauss: I t-hink what it's implying, and it realIv shouldn't onlv be
pur=uecl tr-w Lhe city because we require boulevard and streetscaPe Planlin9
of privaLr: developers as weII. But uhat we need to do is flush thaL out
ancl sa/ that it's a goal of the c.ity to Provide boulevard and streetscaPe
pIanLi ng .
say it Eha!
by the City
uJay. You
it sounds
know reforestation, it says
Iike the city's going to PaY
Krauss: RighL, and that's the wrong impr ession -
give them that imPression.Emmings: tnte certainly don't want to
Don Halla: one other thing that,-. some cities do not leL ceople plant
within Ehat 13 foot public area in front. oLher cities encourage... some
citjes say you have t.o plant it 14 foot back from Lhe curb.".
Emmings: tnel I if it's wiLhin the right-of-wav. ' -
that iL be kept ouLside Lhe right-of-
come in and put some TV lines in orrequlre
Nants to
BaLzli: Bui- all this wilL do is, if Lhev have aII junk trees, vou make
them plsnt a couple more trees because they wouldn't get any credit fcr the
junk tree:.. That's aII I'm suggesling.
Krauss: I guess I'd like to mee! it halfwav where we do give them some
credjt for t hose trees. Possibly not as much as you u'rould if it was maple
or o;k.
Batzli: l^Je.l I yeah. That's what I meant. If we have a list of trees that
we would g.ive them credit for. You knout, if they've got mapi.es. If they've
got something, Lhen you gjve them credit. If thev've got aII junk, then
you ,. ke r.,irem plant a couple of trees. Just a thought . I can be
persuacieci -
Planning commission Meeting
AugusL :1 , 1991 - Page 54
Emn,ings: It's kind of picky item, the heading for 20-7\77 doesn't tell you
uanL's in. Ll77 aL aII and I would change it. InsLead of saying Plans
Subn:issiorr and Approval, I'd say something like Plans Submissioni Time ofCompletion; Financial Guarantees; and Alternatives. Something Iike that.t^ihat's up there doesn't really give you any idea of what you're going tofind in the secLion. Then over on page 4, item (c)(3) that Tim brought up.I hadn't thought about it but I think what Tim says makes a lot of sense.I don't see any reason and f guess I disagree with Jeff and Brian on this,that if trees have to be removed and there's no other way to do it, and ifure've already got r.,hat we think is a good landscape plan that they,re goingto have to live up to, then I think you take the trees out. I think it issomewhat punitive to make them reprace them because they're arso going tohave to 9o the cost of taking them dourn. If we've got a good landscapepran it shouldn't matter. Brian, vou did an honorable job of raising whatr call the hypothetical horribre, what if you have to take dotln 5o tiees tobuild, wcll I don't. know if you ever will. But I guess that's going to bethe unusuar case, not the usuar case and so it doesn't scare me, r agreewith Tim on that. Under Division 3, talk about crunkily. Has it cluntily:The (a) Lhere where it says, there shall be provided ]andscaping meeting.That could be uritten betLer and maybe you just want to say, landscapin!shall be providecl which meets the minimum. ThaL r..ri ll be a little morestraight forward. Page 4. ll79(a). Just say landscaping shalI beprovided which meets the minimum. And then r told you, that sentence thatTim brougl-rl up needs to be changed and thaL wiII be in the Hinutes... overon page 10, 18-6,1(aX1) has drawn comments from everybody here andobviouslv is a place that we're going to focus when we look at this again.r agree r^rit h Brian's change for sure to take that sentence out and move itto the enci. f really think we need to develop these lisLs and I think t^rhenwe taL [:ed about Lhis ]ast time, Tim and r urere making some suggestions uphele and what r thought we were going to do was maybe, and r don,t know ifthis makes any sense and it may be lhat we'll want to talk to Don orsomething on this but we should haive maybe, one u,ay to do it wourd be tohave- 3 caitegories in our rist. r remember you specificarly said we haveone li:t thaL had a hieh valued tree, or what we regard Lo be a high varuetree. r don't knour what that means but we could ki.ck it around. erobab).yan oal.. or a maple, as long as it,s not a little maple like...or somethingli ke t hat .
Don Halla: Hard, medium
would be oak. . .
and soft is really wanL you wanl . The hardwoocl -
Emmings: see we could get some. l,Je may uJant to talk to you about this but rto geL your, have one tree be one of those high quarity trees and then have Ia second list that would be, there's been a lot of disagreement up herewhether we t.rant to make people put in a conifer
Erhart: t hat we were trying to avoid wasashe: or two silver maples or two poplars.some guy putting in two green
Don Halla:
Cha nhassen
are . . ,
It has to be different varieties butas such. Frankly softwoods are going
you've got heavy clay inLo survive. Sugar maple's
Emmings: 5o this isn't too bright huh.
PIann j nJ Commiasion t{eeting
Augt,lst ?1 , 7991 - Page 55
Erhart-: You dorr't think sugar nraPles will grow here?
Don lia.lla: They wiII grotr but most of them drown' -.same thins with soft
map.Le3 so you can som" of Lhose Problems - . .
l'4ar k HaIla: Ttrat's 6 inches above the ground. - -
Emming:: That's exactly the kind of stuff we need to know -
Mark Halla: You mav want to include too that it has to be, if you
recor d. - .
Emmings: BuL anyway, I thought Ne were going to have one list uhere it
r^rould be kirr,J of the hish va.Lued tree - t^lhatever that means. Maybe hard
woods bLrl rrc,t hardwoods that at'en't going to survive. There's no point in
plarrt ir''.: t-reD,r tl-,ar- are going to have problems -
[<ral,s: i t.J€'rr-' gc,in9 to have the DNR Forester - They're working on
deve 1 c,p i n.-,r t i; i:; .
Enrmirrg:,: Let me 3et. on with this. Let m6 finish. The seconci list I think
ougl,i to bc, ct could be evcrgl'eens of whaLever kind buL I'm not sure Ne
warrt tc, fcrce' pec,plc- to Plant evergreens. We've had an ongoing argument
about- tf,al. up hc,re arrd maybe Nhat you ujant to do is put evergreens and,
thank you f c,r stiffljne thai y,ar^rrr Paul . I apPreciate it- Evergreens and
ornamenl-a1 trrje :'t. t,lhaI if somc:body HanLs to PLlt uP a nice, I don'L krrow
wtiat. A pIunr, apPle, l don't know what.
Don H.:li:': Tlr,- orr1i' sdventage to youl evc-I'green is you're going to get ' ' '
Emmjnss: I ihink a ]ot of people r,ril] choose Lo Put them in but what if
they 6. [c,,,-,11.' ]r(--L t-o pul- thern irr or- if they dorr 't want them?
l4ar k ti;;lla: I r,rouLcl think you'd have a high percentage that did tha-rt you
wouldn,t hrlr.r t't Ie<tuire it - They Hant the winter color so maybe you don'L
neecl to r equire it.
Emm i ng,-: : No .
Batzli: tJe]l what's Lhe difference in cost between those !wo?
Don HalIa: Evergreens are going to be cheaPer than the shade trees.
Emnrings.: Fiour about an ornamental? How about a hahthorne or a crab or
somethi n,l 1i ke thaL?
Don Halla: Yc)u,re going to have a 152 to 2OZ variance...price. Hawthorne,
flowering crab, soft maPlc, green ash. sugar maple- You're going" '
Emnring:,: ok.:y. But I thought maybe we could put ornamenla] trees in with
Lhe gioup of evergi-een5 and Ie! them pick one or Lhe other if they don'L
want ever gr eens .
olsen: l,Je had irrtencled !o do that actua I Iy -
Planning Commission He
August ?t, 7997 - Page
Emnrings: Then I don't know what the third category woulcl be. Other kindsof desireable tlees and I'm noL sure what lhat means. There are lots ofthern. Th€'re are some trees we don't want to encourage people to plant.
Box elders. f personally hate cottonuoods because they make a mess on myscreens. MayL,e we shouLd list some of those things that would be. Andthen I think we might want to say other things if approved by the City.Give people arr out or a bJay to come back. I Lhink then that f agree u,iththe comments made down here that, by Ladd and I think Tim really said the
same thing- That if what exisls on the ]ot meets the minimum that'srequired here under the StaLute, it could be for all three. There's got tobe one in the front yard. It's got to meet the same size requirements asthe trees requiring to be installed. t^le're going Lo have to match the listthat we wind up developing but if existing trees did thaL, there's no pointin.
eting
O ]se'n : And i f
add th":t','
the>' didn't have arr evergreen or ornamental, they'd have to
Er har t : \'e;ih.
Batzli:
have a buobject i=
Er hart :
in you r
rrc h
to
disagree with that only from the standpoinL that you couldof (.O year old trees and they could die in 5 years. Thekincl of reforest at lhe same time. I'd require at least one.
Emmings: I bought- a lot and I don't know how many trees f haveprobably 25 or 30 and they're al] old, mature trees and I don'tI couldn't plarrt. another tree on my lot without taking one downknow if that makes any sense.
but
know,
and I don'L
iior.r I c,ng does
I i fetime? Hor^,
a tree, if you cutold do Lrees get?
a 60 year old tree, does. that die
Do rr Ha]la: IL depends on the varieLy of Lhe trees...average life span
Erhart: S.Leve, are you saying that you uJant to, fyou said buL 1 Iike the idea of having one conifer
agree r"rith everyt hi ngtree.
Emmings: But I think that's been a philosophical differencepeople up here. I initially was for that position too but Ipeople say,, what if I just don't Hant one of those. Uhy do Iand my thoughl there was, give that person the choice betweenor an or namenla I .
and some
heard a lot of
have to plant
the ever gr ee n
Conrad: I I i ke the coni fers .
Batzli: I ]ike them but that doesn,t mean everybody Likes them.concernecl with getting some younger trees and making sure they'reproperly, rather Lhan forcing thenr to plant a parlicular kind.
I'm moreplanted
ConIad: Yeah, trees
exaggerat.i ng but not
have leaves
much .
on therr for 4 months out of the year. I,m
Pl a nni n3 Commission Meeting
August 21., L997 - Page 57
Emmings: f gueas the other thing that bothers
subdivisiorr and every one of them has got one,
Iook gaoC tc, have every lot the same as you 90
goL onc, maybc it's going Lo be.
me, you could 9o through a
I dorr 't knou. Ooes that
dowrr the street? Each one's
tJe ian do that when we vote
opinion.
Conrad: It's okay because Lhe houses look similar too.
Erhar!: I assume Lhey'II be different varieties of evergreens.
Don Halla: 1 dorr't think that having a conifer in there is...
Batzli: But w€ h.=.t,err't clarif ied. !^,eLI I mean I Lhink we have to give a
thurrb:. u= or. thumbs down on a couple of poinLs here so they know what to
Emnrings: Ollay, go a head .
one of them -Erhert-: (c)(3) is
Emmi ngs: Nc,.
on i r- bcrcause
L^Je clon't have to do that noN.
u.i knc\w tlrere's a dif ference of
Conrad: Ne're not voting on it now.
Emrrr i n'3.. :)'€, nnl voting on it now.
conrad: You need a direction.
Baizli: I would think Ne'd want to
repLacement on caliPer inch or not.
Enrmings: BuL r.J " can'L , There's not
wait and see when we vote on it.
a consensus up here. tle'Il have t c.r
at least an informal vote to see how
don't surprise them?
are for i.t and Tim and r are against
give
Ha ve
themir a
]n
direction to do a
there or not,
BaLzli : t^lhy don't
it's going to, ho!.r
Erhalt: The one
miserably. That
removed trees on
kirrd of take
may go so He
weir
Emmi ngs: l.le l l we know you two guys
i L . 9,o that leaves you tt^,o .
Conrad: t,Jhi<;h one are ue talking about?
Emmings: (cX3), page 4
where they 'reone. The one
a caJ.iper pe.r
just awful . The City's asking iust
tlhere they may require the rePlacement oF
caliper inch basis.
Emmings: I think they wilt too buL I'm iust saying let's give them a
choice. For the people who don't Iike i.t, Iet's give them a choice. on
page 11, number 5. That's the same as what's on Page 4 as (cX5) only on
page 4I like the way it's stated better and I would just change the one on
page 11 tc L)e the same, I think we've go! to go around with this one
asain.
PIanni ng Comn:ission Heet i ng
August 27, 1997 - Page 58
El.lson: I think it forces them to
Batzli: Hay, The optimum word is may-
Conrad: The key word is may.
Erhart;
requiring
tJeIl r.le're a.l-ready doing
them to do that Loo.
look at the alternate of saving a tree.
that. My argument is Lhey're already
someLhi ng .
of Lhe word may and I
Emmings: tlell wait a minute. Yeah, of course that assumes that He'retalking about the situation that's in number 2 right above. That there,sno other feasible way to develop the site. If they want to take them downjust on a whim, then replacement might be appropriate but if they have noctroice but to takc the tree out, I don,t think we can make them put it
bac k.
B;tzl i : B-,t tlien it'e jrrst we may require them to do
Conrad:don't L
ura 3
the because
Erhari: Th;t's the problem wiLh...using the r":ord may.
Conraci : 9,c, we're putting the burden on staff tc, figure
Erhart : \'eali. bu:- i5 that fair? . - .do ure want to havealIoH s,taf f disc:-etion like that?
Emmi ngr- : SL!l'.1 .
I
nouJ
never uncomfortable with thal
standards that r^r i 1l apply .
Batzlr: i.J: ll 1o<,i 61 the bluff Iine. The City Adrninistrator'scut t|re r.: .:nJ dacide whether they can cut down trees so they'veTalk :'b<,ul subje,ctive" That's the most subjective thing we,vein...
it out.
ordinances tha',
gor nggot a
tal kecl
to go
view.
about
conrad: Then we get back to steve's point. As long as there,s an intent,then there's a guideline for that and we can feeL comfortable with it- |think mosL people like that flexibility because every roL is different.Every vieur is different. Every subdivision, whatever. so it's nice to beflexible when there's a direcction of inLent.
Erhart:
i nLe n!
Okay , I'd be very comfor-table with that if it,s clear what the
BaLzli: Nell Lhe intent, wetve got a whole section of inten!. 1176.
Emmins:; You know t^rhat rim? r'm Iooking at this a rittle differentlyright nor.l . Three might be broader. Does that appry to the city requirins 1the placernent of any removed trees or just trees that are removed as in I
number 2 where there's no choice but to remove them?
BatzIi: I f-hink it 'applies to everything.
Planni n3 Comr,rission Meeting
August 2t, 7991 - Page 59
Emm i rrg:, :
narroura].
f cio toc,. I Lhink it's a ]ittle, we're maybe reading it a Iittle
Aanenson: It says evaluate, if you Iook in (c), it says evaLuating site
plans and subdivisions.
Emminge: Right. But when it says (3)' Lhe city mav require. . .i.dentical to
whaL wa: said in number 2. Trees urill be saved unless it's demonstrated
there's no other feasible h,ay out. Are we talking about that Lree that
gets removed because there's no other way to develop this site or are we
talking mc,re broadly about trees that are removed for other PurPoses?
olsen: Mor-e broadly but I think tre could clarifv it'
Erlra:'t : l,l--.'ie tal l'.ins about trees that could be saved but for some reason
1$; ,1r,ire lop. ) uia nt s to ta ke them out .
Batzli: firid n()t nececsarily t hose that are 6 inches or more in ca]iPer.
Emmings: oka/. So I guess, my Position xould be that if Lhey're removing
trees L,::cause they have no choice, I'm not so interested in rePlacing them-
If they're removing trees for their otan Purposes or other PurPoses, r ann
going to recontmend rePlacing Lhenr. Do you agree with that Tim? Okay- So
maybe nou they carr uJork out some accord.
Batzli: The ot her
Emmi nge: A nci uJhat
one
do
I think we had disagreemenL on Nas on Page 10'
you kra nt clar ified?
RaLz]j: tlhe:t hi ; r.re're goi ng to have coniferous tr ees and whether they can
geL avtay wjLh for aI1 Lhrt:e of Lhe required trees.
Emmirrgs: Ljherr wiII the, will fhe list be done by next time
tle're
we see this?
going with theAanenscn: t^le're not going with the DNR thing right?
three, high value, ever gr ee n/or namenta l .
Olsen; The DNR wouldn't be because we're working ulith that wiLh a whole
other ordinarrce Lhat you're going to be ]ooking at so no, That list wil]
not be done. But we can get a List. Ue'II Put together a Iist. t^lorking
uith the nurseries around here wilh those three you were talking about,
Emmings: I don't know that three's
two col umrrs .
the magic number. Maybe you only have
Erhartr I just don't think it's t haL
that
muc h
old
magi c .
really,got isn
long.
it into
Olsr-"n: Thc Iist tle've
Erhart-: But that'= too
Olsen: Lje can arrange
Too many,
those tuJo columns.
,t
PIannin3 Comnriss ion Meet i ng
August 2f, 7991 - Page 50
Corrr ad: So t he
coniferou:; tr-ee
say
Emmi ng= :
Conrad:
Emmings:
Conrad:
Erh:rt:
Corrrad;
Lrhar-I.:
Emm i rrgs :
BatzIi: 3houl.:l we say we
who--r,e,r. . . didlr'L rre.ed it
discr et i on -
need one coniferous unless the developer,for some reason? In our sole and arbitrary
quesLion i.s, do Ne want the flexibility on having aor not .
Oh sur e "
tlell you said Lhat. That uas your idea.
Oh, whether it should be mandatory?
Yeah. Thumbs up or thumbs down?
f 'rn a ma ndator y .
You're mandatory. They've got to have it?
On(' evergreen.
Hele you posed the .quesLion and noul you can,t answer it.
Conrad: I don't have an opinion- I like the coniferous. I,II have toyeah because I don't r:ind the exception. you know Nhat you're saying iemayba it doesn't work. I'taybe the land is just not right for it. I cana case where somebody could persuade me. r just don't have a method of.
E.I .Isorr: liere's where you get alI the... I dorr ,t
des L . If y'r-ru don'l wanL one on your pI'oper ty , youit but 3 trees is awfully nice. t'1aybe they Hant 3likc thal,... I thir,k ..i Ict c,f people would do ittruth.
think it's that big ashouldn't have to have
ornamentals or somet hi ng
anyway to LeII you the
Emmi ngs: 0 kay .
ever gree ner?
[^le've got a]I the opinions doxn here. Are you a mandatory
Batzli: J'nr a mandatory evergreener.
Farma kes : Mandatory .
Emmings: Okay, so mandatory's
mandatory evergreen. I'm going
goi n9 to 9o.
of those columns is going
against it but that's the
in.
to
One
vo te tobea
Hay it's
Aanenson: rt's not evergreen./ornamental? rt's just strictry evergreen?
Emm.ings: Just evergreen and r guess hre want to do some work on definingwhat that meanE. tJe're not talking about, there are all kinds ofevergreens. Again we'll need a list and they should be trees that aregoing to s,urvive.
Batzl i ; l^Jc neec a I ist and ue need standards ,
PIanrrir; C.,rnii::ion Meei:ing
F.!:.J:.: : j, l.,1 i - trage (,1
Enrr,inl:: !1..:.)', now the only other question, wait. Let's get out of h.:'e.
Ellsorr: Oli ncLr you talk about geLting out of here.
Bat:li; You've been hung up with this three list thing for half arr hour
that nobody else Iikes.
Emmings: Now are we going to Ie! them rePlace 2 ot 3?
Batzli: I say 2-
Farma kes: 2.
EI lson: 3-
Corrred: l.
Erhilt : 3.
Emnringe : 3.
l( r a u::;Can
Emmirr.J:: If
ordin;nce.
Kr:ii,r:::: il:.',/€ a:' l{';:.s+. 1 t.'i-aa :n ihe f v6,rrt.
fnrrrirral:.: -c'i: i. L I 2r--'r to lravc' Lh: sanrc n'ij;< str,i s,im- lisL. t'Jh.ll if a guy's
a-j(,t . !ia 1o'.i ''i,- r. 1-, lr,+r :,rrd it's soli.l tt ee.': f cr Lhe t'ac ir 2CC f elL , ar. viD
sLilI r;crr-: i-,- nt.;lr; l,i;i. Cc Lhat?
r--'t. t.i
Enrnrjng:: I t i-ri rrh sc, !c,c,, Ne're going t-o table this. l5 Lhere a n:o+'ir,n?
Erhart moved, Emmings seconded to table Zoning and Subdivision Ordinance
Amendment to amend Sections regarding landscaPing and tree Preservationrequirements. AII voted in favor and the motion carried.
Emnrings: Thanks for your input - Appreciale it -
APPROVAL OF HI NUTES:The Hinutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated
August 7, 1,991 l^)ere so noLed as presenLed.
CITY COUNCIL UEDATE:.
Emmi rrgi:'.: An)' particular items you want to
Kr;u5i5 : l.,lr'\ -
Emming::: The L,ank was a big improvement.
peo;:l e can ce: it?
r..re clarify Lhat. though
lh.:, .1 , if it meeLs aIl
a little bi t?
the oLhcl requi,''emenLs of the
highl ight Pau]?
Is that pi ctur e her e so other
PIanning Commission Hcet i ng
August 2f, f997 - Page 62
Krauss; No, I 'rn afraid it isn't .
Emmirrgs: I saw it at the City Council meeting and it really uras, they tookinto account a lot of the things ure said. They made Lhe windows bigger.
They put some awn!.ngs on it which really helped a loL. But they also, theyshaded in. They put shade on that and thaL !.,as as nice as anything. Ithink we should paint that shade in.
Krauss: Thr: building wall was pretty
it with balconies. It looks somewhat
balconies.
monolithic.
1i ke MecJi c a n
brought depth i ntoin Lerms of havi ng
They
Ar ts
Emmings: It bras much b,et.ter. tle've our ongoing items list- Does anybodyhar.,:.:.r? cDmments on that?
Batzli: Ljhe.n is the Lundgren Bros. deal going t.o the Council?
OIsen: gept enbc: 9th.
SIGN ORDI E AHENDMENT I.JOR PROGRAM
Errn -i ng: :
ta, -.al uF
Pa,-:l ': lor:king for inpuL on this. Nor4 it,s still , are you going. seF a r" ate?
Kralrss: Br alI ranks rd Iike to have the planning commission designate 1or ? per:ple to work with one or two people from the council and probably goout ernrj geL Ec'nre people from the community. He'rI meet as infrequently aspossible, Haybe once a monLh for a few months type of thins.
Emmi ng,',: :riff i !:nr,u
r",.r ho ': i ril- it .t.-t.::l:
is interested in this issue. Is there anybody else
Bat-:l; Tirn is I t-l:irrk.
Erhart: I thirrI
EIlson: I think
C'onr ad : Ar e hre
a commi ttee for
Laclcj wrote the last sign ordinance so f,m sure he is.
Joan is very i nter esLed .
going to, this is a round about way. Are we going to havethe welland ordi nance?
also needed. t^,e'Il^ also need someone for that-
i nter-ested in that?
one f'd Like to be on. I wouldn't mind looking at the
Emming:: Do you Hant to be an alternate?
Krauss: That is
Emmi ngs: Are yolr
Conrad: See thatsign ord i rrancc -
Conrad: llaibet an alternate's not aclon't ularrt to be on both committees
bad idea. See I would like to see, Ireally.
Planni n.; f om;nissi on Heeling
August 21 , 7997 - Page 63
Kr augs :
that you
Is tlrere going to be, how
thing. Is there going to
I would prefer not to on that
should h:e involved uith on a
about a 1995 study area. The. TH 5
be another ?
Krau=:: lhe r,ra)-' f 'm trying to swing that is to have on your regular
mcetings tc have a seseion that's a joint rneeling between you and the HRA
to consider i-hat stucJy sPecifically.
Emming.: Okay. 5o thal study will be going on with consultants and so
forth and then we'll come in at some Point in time? So there uron'L be a
separat! sLudy group?
Em;rringl:.: fs there e on,ebc,cly else who wants
you r!;it ' Li,::.i, Jlan is intet'ested or al'e
not he)-e?
That one is I think something
frequent basis.
to volunteer for the signs? Do
you taking a Poke because she's
one.
mo r'e
EIls.-rr," I t l-,c-,u91-rL it.'d be fun delegating PeopIe who aren't here-
think that 's
am in signs.
signs.
only fair'. I
fersonally.
Iot more i nteresLed
Y OU?
k now
How
I'm a
a bout
o^l. - I i
L 11--c rt :
sign:,
ND
tlhy'
inter-esL in
he ca rr
Cc i".r. riecd two? I think Jef f will do f ine. I think that
do r,:hat needs to be done.
r'tu not e; big sign person.
Emmin!5: Can
Kr aurs i
Lrnnlnl--:
ElIsc,n:
t. -go wiLh one and an alLernate?
gol ng
but
!o be out
r^le'II make
for part of the time I assume we're going
the offer.
Krau:::.: I hr,+- 'e plobabl)' f ine because I wou.Id guess LhaL the
not .. big gu.s.: but, probablr aPpoint Tom to work with it and
a coupLe c,f people frorr the Chamber. That's Probably enough.
Counc i ] wi I I ,then maybe get
Emmings: Th: only other thing is to ask Joan- t'lhy don't you ask Joan if
she wantg tc, do it. If she Nants to do it !'Je'll have two and Ladd as an
al"tern.ate. Otherwise we'll have Jeff and Ladd as an alternate.
KrauE.s: Jo6 n 's
to be doi ng this
Emmi ngs: Yeah .
u nder way?
tthy don't we dc that. And the h,etlands thing wi]I get
a task force on Lhat as we sPeak.
Tim. Ladd.
set up
her e?
Emm i rr3s, :
l'm asking lhe Hayor to
And who's gol i nter esL
Fc'r r.rhi ch ones?
L,J ri !. .l <7 I IIJ: .
Pl.:nr,ir,; tlrrrtnission Meeting
Au.tus+. li , 1io1 - trase 6.4
Kr auss ;
Pr (lajl. air', -plan a rrd
Erha].t:
Batzli:
Emm i ng= :
Eatzli:
Emm i rrgl :
rre ,
tjell it's not. just wetlands. It's the whole surface utilityIl:'s all the rJal-e)' management issues. Storm ujater managemenLthe water cuality effort.
And you're loohing for a sub task force to do that?
If you three guys are on it.
No, I just want you to say whether you've got interest.
f have interest but I think you guys have more interest.
Come on, it's 11 :15.
Th;t's why I'm saying it that way. It's 11:15. I don't want todrcisions.
-ref f , cJo y ou r,,,,a nt t o be on t-uro?
I think the sign thing, maybe if I'm a solo, that's enough for
Emnrj rr3i: I Eut: s. if they want two menrbe
Lh.: :i9:, thlri..:, I'IL do it with Jeff . Ih:trpl' r,';l t f, one , j '" wi I 1 be Jeff .
of the P).anning Commission on
whoever's putting iL together is
r9
f
i{r'au::r,: I :r: :, r1i ;-llsc j:e ll you too though, we are going to atternpt tc havemeetirr,.r: f ol t i,(i:.(, two task forces at some poirrt either early or late inthe u:-,r hir': ,1.:z t.: irnme.Jiately af Lc,r Lhe close of business. To be honesLr.lith yo'-r , I dt,n'!: tlrink r,re cai, handle another group of night meetings anC I
.J.-,n "- tl-,,r L,, i l: -J, e lsc, ar-cun.l her-c can eithcr. 9t: Ne're going to tt-y toavoid settirrg .ieide a r.lhole everring for these thihgs.
Farn:ra ke:.: f h.rvr a quest ion f or you on the sign commiLtee . Whenucrkin9 ar-rt, Lhere Nas sort of a general description of who wouldther:. Ther::'s going to be a balanced group there I'm assuming.be just sign clrafters and business r epr esentat i ves?
No. t^lell, we've got to look aL people uho are interested in
you 'r e
be onfL xon 't
Krauss:
s i g nage. -
Farmakes: I fu]Iy 69ree withyou juet have business ownersit would be.
that. It just will
downtown and peop I e
balance, . .because if
businesseS dourntown,
be a
with
Krauss : I L'd be skewed one r.ray or the
t^re've ;:sked you to consider it becausethat )'ou niight harre and maybe somebodyvery excited about design- t^le'II sure
other. That's one of the reasonsthere's a variety of design imageIike Di.ck tling now who is getting
Lry. t^le'IL give names to the Mayor
All voted
11:20 p.m.
in favorConrad moved, BatzIi seconded to adjourn the meeting.and the motion carried- The meeting was adjourned at
Subrnitted by Paul Krauss, Planning Director Prepared b>, Nann Opheinr
CITY OF
CH[[IH[EEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
UEIIIORANDI,III
To: Planning ConmissLon
FRot!: PauI Klauss, Planning Director
DATE: August 30, 1991
SUBT: Report from Director
At the City Council neeting
actions rrere taken:
of August 25, 1991, the following
Zoning ordinance Amendment to define bed and breakfast
establishnents was approved on final reading.
The council approved staffrs proposed anendment to the fee
schedule for PUD applications. Early this year, staff had
recommended sone fairly sweeping changes in our fee schedule
which had not been updated for quite some time. The idea wasto nake the fees Dore conparable with uhat is being charged
else\.rhere and to enable at least part of the costs we
encounter in reviewing projects to be offset by charges to thedeveloper. During discussions vith Ryan construction,relative to their PUD subnission, staff concluded that the fee
schedule for POD applications rras higher than could bejustified. Prior to the city Councilts action, there was a
$750 application fee, plus a $50 clrarge per acre. staff
recommended that the $50 per acre charge be waived. we
concluded that this vas Dore ln keeping nith conparable
conmunities in the Twin Cities and, possibly of nore
importance, would prevent the fee schedule fron beconing a
hinderance in going rith PUD developnents. We believe this isparticularly inportant since re thlnk in the future, we will
be strongly advocating that lost large developments and nany
smaller ones utilize the PUD process and we did not want thisto be at a cost disadvantage to nornaL rezoning. Also, we
noted that Ryan will be paying sulrdivision fees and a fee for
each site plan that is reviewed.
Appeal of denial for a front yard setback variance to
construct a porch and deck at 180 Fox HoLLo!, Drive for Steve
and Sharon Peterson was denied. The Board of Adjustnents had
ODt,
1.
2.
3.
PRINTED ON RECrcLED PAPER
Planning Cornmission
Auq,ust 30, 1991
Page 2
originally recornmended denial of this request which wasconsistent rrith staffts reconmendation. t bllieve this is igood exarnFle of the problens with unconstrained residentialPUD devel.opnent that has occurred in the past in Chanhassen.The lot in question is a corner 1ot and -thus has two frontyards. In the Fox Hol]ou pUD, front yard setbacks werereduced fron the normal 30 feet dorrn to iO feet. When thishone was constructed, it was constructed right on Uoth of tfrefront.yard setback lines in spite of the fact that there sasa patio door located on the west elevation of the hone whichfaces a street. The owner clains to have been lead to Ueiieve!y t!. developer that a porch and deck could be constructea inthe. future.. The request to construct a 12 foot deep porcn anadeck in this area rrouLd have resulted in an I foot setback
f r9n -th_e .publ ic right-of -way and in addition, ,""f a -fri""
lntruded trro feet into the required 10 foot 'drainage
andutility easement.
4
fn the future, if snal1 1ot residential pUDs are to be used,staff- would- :lr-ongly reconmend that setback guidelines -be
clearry estabrished and that uere necessary, theie ue rectlaeain the chain-of-titte on each lot. rn aadition, }"i lrr"-ii=tyear- and a- half, staff has not allowed patio do;rs 1;-;"developed in areas where it is not possiu'ie to "-"".tr""t
-I
legitinate deck. we do not do this 6ecaus" we are obriqatedby ordinance, but because we are trying to put tfri-t "."-i".i",on notice that there are linita€ioris rilfr ah; ;r"p;X;.ultinately, the home- buyer needs to take a significint- strii"of the responsibility. for ensuring the ,"t"ti- "i- fiili.investnent. The old ltateuent ot lil-et the buyer bewarer istruly applicable in cases such as this since th6 city can oniydo so nuch to protect an individual against irr"r-"-"-f'"JJ.' "'-,
Conditiona_l PSe perait anendnent for fence height forrakeshore Equipnent was rewiewed by the council. rr,i3-..t[..rras reviewed by the planning conniision fast winter. - il-i;;recall, the natter conc-erns- the property owner raisinj ai-ifoot high fence to a .h-eight of- rf ie6t, i"-.pl-t";f -tlrJ;
approvals that linit o-r1tf-oor storage to an'a toot itnce t"iShiand ,arnings fron stafJ that an 8 f.oot high fence sa" ari-tiiiwas altowed on the buil_ding pernit. rhjptannint arri;i;; -reconmended approval of the amendnent to arrow -tt" ii i""thigh fence and directed staff "na- tfrl applicant to ;;;itogether. to.develop. an inproved i""a"""pirig pi;; ;; ;;i;screen the site. An.improved tandscaping pi;;-r;-;tJi"a'iiistaff felt that the impiovenents werdno6eit, at besil-;e ei;litt_r." to-break up the_nassing oi-itris 6utdoor =t"Eg.-y"rilwe therefore, carried forrard the eianning c"rri"ri"";=recommendations but continued to recornmend thlt tE-;;i;";cUP. condition_ be approved. Ultinatety,-ihe councif taffla ttrenatter and asked staff to organize " ,""ti"j-J-ft-"i;;;Id;the o!'rner.
Planning Cornnission
August 30, 1991
Page 3
Iiloon Valtey - onqoina Neqotiations
Last nonth I inforned you that we had given the l,loon Va1ley
operator an additional 30 days to subnit a pernit application
request in light of their consultantrs indications that sone
progress torrard an acceptable plan could be made. We had their
assurances that plan documents would be subnitted by the end of
August. The applicantrs consultant net with the city Attorney and
nyself on August 28th, only to be told that they would fail to meetthis deadline, which is the last in a series of approximatefy 3
deadlines that have been given to these individuals. Furthernore,
we were presented uith trro plans, one of which is an environmental
abornination that shows creating a crater 165 feet deep on the
entire lloon valley site. What is being tenned as a ttalternativerl
plan rras also previewed by staff. This plan shows preservation of
a portion of the bluff line and white it still contains significant
environrnental damage, does offer the Potential for working out a
solution to the lloon Valley problen. However, lre lrere told that
they $/ouId be subnitting the crater plan as the officiaL subnittal
and that the city had to earn the alternative plan by being good to
Moon vaIley. The city Attorney and myself inforned the applicantls
consultant that it was out of the question that we would evaluate
two plans. ff the crater concept was the official plan, that is
the only one that will be reviewed. We inforned hin that we will
not be a party to this type of ganesnanship. At the time of
writing, a neeting has been scheduled sith the applicant and their
attorntys for next week and I uay have sone additional infornation
to report to the Planning Commission at the rneeting.
CITY OF
EH[NH[ESEN
IIIEMORANDI'III
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
690 COULTER DRIVE ' PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (512) 937-5739
Ha11a Grading,/Interin Use Permit #90-3
PauI Krauss, Planning Director
August 2L, L99L
SUBf: Update
This memo outlines a series of telephone ca1Is that occurred on or
about this date betrreen staff menbers, Uark HaL1a, of Ealla Nursery
and nyself. After speaking to several staff nenbers who had been
contacted by the Hallas, I put in a call to Iilark Halla nyself. His
request to other staff had been for the city to allow the placement
of an unknown aDount of fill naterial on their property. The site
where the fill would be placed Ls a dan that was constructed by the
Ilallas in one of the reaches of Bluff creek. The darn has been in
place for a nu:nber of years. It rras danaged by the 1987 super
storn and last year I administratively authorized the placement of
the maximun of 1,ooo cubic yards allowed under the ordinance for
administrative approvals to stabilize the structure and improve
drainage. This rras basically done on an energency basis and it was
clearly indicated at that tine to Don HaLla that no further grading
would be allowed without an interim use perroit.
In responding to Mark Hallars request, I indicated that I was not
in a position to authorize the depositing of any more fill on thisproperty. I indicated that Don Halla had made an application for
an interin use perurit to deposit additional fill on the site but
had pulled his requeEt prior to Planning Comission and city
council action after he read the conditions of the staff approval.
Staff has long been concerned that the Hallas are using this area
as a dump site and that unregulated fill could create a hazard froro
an unstable dan, causing environmental danage due to tree loss and
would result in extensive erosion damaging dolrnstream waters.
Itark Hal1a indicated that shafer contracting, the Highway 5
contractor, has indicated a willingness to deposit fill naterial on
the property. I indicated to t{ark that I rras not in a position to
act iavorably on this request and that it would take approxinately
2 to 3 months to gain approval. I further indicated that Don HaIIa
could have had approval to nodify this site in a nanner consistent
tf)t,PBINTED ON RECrcLED PAPER
Halla Nursery
August 21, l99l
Page 2
with the ordinance over 10 nonthsapplication he initiatly nade.
ago had he proceeded with the
!Vn]]e tne_ grading -ordinance allows ne to issue pernits of up to1,000 cubic yards in a calendar year, it does not require ne to doso. In this instance, I clearly feel that I rrould bd reniss in nyresponsibir ities if r arrowed firling to occur on a continuinibasis whenever the property olrner so desired. f believe it iicrearLy in the best intLres-t of the city as rrer. r as the Harlas todeverop a professS.onarry engineered grading plan that stabirizesthe structure with the ninimun environrnental -darnage.
Earlier today, -r also received a call fron paul Neumann fron carversoil conservation service. He has worked with the iiii"= ii", tir"to tine on this matter. The Ha11as contacted hin and tre cariea neto indicate that he also had a concern with unregur.ila -tir1
""this property. It rras his recommendation tfrat - n" -iif I-i-ng leallorred to occur untir a professionatly engineered p-1an rrassubnitted and approved.
pc: City Council
Planning Conmission
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CITY OF
CH[I{H[SEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE' P.O- BOX 147' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA55317'
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
DATE:
SUBJ:
August 20, 1991
Conversation with llr. Vos ov
on August 20, 1991, I uas contacted by John Voss on behalf of the
Moon Valley operator. Ile indicated to ne that he recently had a
neeting with Ton Zwiers. He indicated that Ton was insisting thatthe plan for l{oon valley, Irhich had been presented to the city
Attorney and nyself approxirnately 3 weeks earlier, be presented to
the city as the official request in their pernit application. At
the time ue net with John voss, Lre indicated that this PIan, lrhich
shovs the wiping out of the entire site and bluff line with
lowering some areas up to 160 feet, was cotnpLetely unaccePtable.
Mr. voss then indicated that ur. zwiers has given hin pernission to
subnit an iurproved plan that was dj.scussed at our earfier neeting
but not reviewed, as an alternative. Under the scenario outlined
to ne, this alternative would only becone valid lf the city allowed
Mr. zwiers to build 2\ acre lots on the area above the bluff line.
Mr. voss indicated that the area below the bluff line would be
coumercial or industrial.
I indicated that this scenarlo was unacceptable for several
reasons. First of all, it was ny opinion that the city council and
Planning Coromission would be htghly uncomfortable sith the position
rrherein- a blatantly unacceptabl.e plan uas subnitted vith an
improved alternate plan offered only if the city rras abLe to
conpromise its ordinances and Plans. secondly, lt was indicated
that 2L acre zoning and 1 Per 10 acre density is nandated by the
Uetropolitan council . Adherence to this standard is a requirement
of our Comprehensive Plan aPProval and was alto contractually
required by the Lake Ann IntercePtor Agreenent. It was indicated
thtt the city is not in a position t. have flexibility with thig
standard even if ne wanted to, whic:t ''.re do not. Lastly, it was
indicated that the potential of conrnercial or industrial uses below
the bluff line was unacceptable and inconsistent with city p1ans.
It was further indicated that even if we found these uses to be
acceptable, there is no sewer and water Program for this area into
olt,PRINTEO ON RECrcLED PAPER
!{EI.IOR,ANDt,u
To: Moon Valley File
FRolit: Paul Xrauss, PLanning Director