11-6-91 Agenda and PacketFILE
AGENDA
CEANHASSEN PI.ANNING COI,IUISSTOT
WEDI{ESDAY, NOVBUBER 6, 1991, 7:30 p.U.
CHA}{HASSEN CITy HAr,L, 690 COULTER DRM
5: OO-5:15 p.n. Lunch proyided
5:30 p.n. IDtan l,or p1.npl.Dg Co![lssl.o! CrDdlAates
CALL TO ORDER
PUBLIC HEARINGS
1. Conditional Use Pemit Amendnent for progress Valley Storageon property zoned BF, Fringe Business and located at lgOOStoughton Avenue, Gary Bror n and Gary Dungey.
2. Zoning Ordinance Anendnent concerni.ng nooring of watercraft.
3. Zoning Ordinance Amendnent concerning nonconforming uses,structures and lots.
4. Zoning Ordinance Anendnent concerning bus shelters and parkand ride lots.
5. *TITEI,T DEIJETED T'NTII.' PUBLTC SAFEIIY CO[}!I88rOT IIIPUT RECEIVED**5. ZoTing Ordinance AEendment adding definitions of neighborhoodoriented retail shops and personal service establisf,nents.
5. Zoning Ordinance Amendnent concerning developnent contractsfor site plan approvals.
NEW BUSINESS
APPROVAL OF I{TNUTES
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE
ONGOING ITEMS
ADMINISTRATIVE APPROVAI,S
OPEN DISCUSSION
7. 1992 Goals.
8. Recreational Beachlots - Update.
9. Moon Val1ey - Update.
10. Zoning Ordinance Amendnent for Christnas Tree Sales/temporary
uses .
AU'OURNI,IENT
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
PC DATE:
CC DATE:
cAsE l:
By:
Lt/ 6/eL
LL/L8/eL
87-2 CUP
Olsen : v
Fz
o
=(L
0-
E
lrjha
Conditional Use Petrlt AmendDent to Al.Iow outside storageand a Conditional Uae Permit to Al1ow Rental of Trucksand Trailers
Northwest corner of County Road 10 and Hwy. 212
PROPOSAL:
IOCATION :
APPLICANT:Gary Brovn
1831 Koehnen CircleExcelsior, l{N 55331
Gary Dungey
1910 Stoughton Avenue
Chaska, UN 55318
PRESENT ZONTNG:
ACREAGE:
DENSITY:
ALIACENT ZONING AND
I.AND USE:
BF, Business Fringe District
14 acres
N - A2, vacant
S - A2, single farnily
E - A2, single fanily
W - A2 & BF; single faroily and cedney pickle
T{ATER AND SEWER:Not available to the site.
PHYSICAL CHARAETER. :The site
northwest.
was farned and slopes torrard the
2 OOO I,AND USE PIAN:Agriculture
I
STAFF REPORT
BACKGROIJND
On l,[ay 4, 1987, the City Council approved a conditional use pernltfor a nini-storage faclllty (Attachnent 11). Ihe condltional usepernit vas approved wlth the folloslng conditions:
1. One tree for every 40 feet be provided along the bernbetueen the vehicular area and rlght-of-way and the benlnust be two feet high.
A description of the plantings proposed ueeting thenininun standards of six feet high (evergreens) and two
and one-half inch caliper (deciduous).
The landscaped areas nust be sod or seeded.
2
3
4
5
A detention basin should be included in thesite drainage plan and be designed to liroitthe on-site runoff to the predevelopnent ratefor a 100 year storrn event.
If possible, align Stoughton Avenue site access withdriveway access on the south side of Stoughton Avenue.
Parking areas and accessdust free, all rreather
capacity.
drives Ehall be paved with asurface built to a 4-7 ton
7
10.
8
9
concrete curb and gutter wiII be required only along theouter edge of the perineter drive around the site.
No outside storage is perraitted.
Subnission of an emergency access easement agreenent.
Installation of a 1,500-2,OOO holding tank, plusinstallation of a one gallon toilet, a epring loldedfaucet, a float alarm, and a man hole over the systen iflocated underneath a driveway.
Permit chain link fence of Gperimeter.feet in height around11.
The.applicant has conpleted one of three phases of .the nini.-storagefacility, and is in the process of constructing phase 2. fnSeptember of 1991, staff visited the site to deternine if the sitewas. in co-mpliance with the conditions of approval. Upon inspectionof the site, staff found that there was outsiae stoiage of boata,U-haul vehicles, etc., which is in violation ot conaition #g.
Brorrn/Dungey CI,P
Novenber 6, 1991
Page 2
5.
Brovn/Dungey CUP
Noveuber 6, 1991
Page 3
Condition *7 also has not been net. A11 of the other conditions ofapproval have been met.
Staff sent the applicant a letter stating the outside storage wasin violation of the conditional use pernit and the rental of truckswas a separate conditional use in the BF district. The letterfurther stated that the applicant nust apply for an anendment tothe original conditional use pernlt for the outslde storage andnust apply for a nei, conditlonal use pernJ_t for the rental oftrucks .
PROPOSAL/SU!,II,TARY
Gary Brown and -cary Dungey, the orners of progress Valley Storage,have nade application to anend the original conditlonal pernit-to
a11ow outside storage and to. receive a new conditional ule perrnitto permit rentaL of trucks. The site is located south of Hdy. 2t2in the BF district. Uses in the BF district are only allowed bycondj.tional use pernits and those are lirnited to the tollowing:
l{otor fuel stations without car washes.
Truck/Trailer rental .
Utility services.
Cold storage and warehousinq.
Outside Stofaoe
The BF district was created to acconnrodate existing uses aLong Hvy.2L2. In other conmercial districts within the city, outsiaestorage is a separate conditional use and is requiled to bescreened. The BF district does not allow screened outside atorage
aS a permitted use. A specific condition of approval for the nini-storage was that outside storage was not pernitted. The applicantis reguesting that condition #8 of the conditional use pernit Uerenoved to pernit outside storage at the mini-storage facility.
when. the original appl ication sraa revierred by the planningr
Comrnission. and city council, staff reconmended a tOOt opaque fenceas is required by the zoning ordinance for conmercial usLs adjacentto residential uses. The Planning Comnission reconmended aplrova1of the conditional use penoit rrith staffts condition for scieeningrof the site. The City counciL pernitted the conditional use pernitwith a chain link fence. The applicant wished to have the- chainlink fence for visibility frorn the street for police and fireprotection. Therefore, the site is not screened fron adjacentresidences, one of which is the applicantrs.
Ihe outside storage is proposed to be confined to where phase 3 ofthe nini-storage facility is proposed and will. be renoved whenphase 3 is developed (Attachment * 2). Ttre outside storage is onan unirnproved surface. The area for outside storage should beimproved with a gravel surface to define the area of storage and
aLlow naintenance of the Eite. There is no proposed screening forthe outside storage. Since the site is fenced with chain linkfence it wilt be difficult to nol, provide screening for the outsidestorage. The outside storage is partially visible fron Hwy. 212and Stoughton Avenue.
Although the site is in the BF district and has had requirenentsfor commercial sites to be waived in the past, staff still feelsthose requirements should be upheld. The city is in the process ofreviewing the BF district and how the area can be irnproved.Allowing unscreened outside storage does not inprove the currentstatus of the area. Therefore, staff is reconnending that outsidestorage not be pernitted unless it can be appropriately screened asrequired in other commercial districts.
Brolrn/ Dungey CUP
NoveEber 5, 1991
Page 4
RECOMMENDATI ON
Planning staff is reconnending that the Planning Connission adoptthe following urotion:
rrThe Planning Comnission. recomnends denial of anending ConditionalUse Pernit *a7-2, by renoving Condition #8 and allorring outsidestorage . rl
Should the Planning Commission reconnend approval. of the amendment,staff woul.d reconmend the follolring conditions:
1. There shall be landscaping in the forn of six (6) foot highevergreens located along the fence at the Eouthwest corner ofthe site.
The area for outside storage shall be irnproved rrith a gravelsurface.
2
The outside storageconpletion of phase 3
uill be renoved fron the siteof the nini-storage facility.upon
TRUCX/TRAILER RENTAIJ
The appJ. icant_ is requesting approval of a conditional use pernitfor the existing rental of U-haul trucks and trailers. The trucksand trailers will be stored where the outside storage is proposed.
3.
Brorrn/Dungey CUP
Novenber 6, 1991
Page 5
The Zoning Ordinance pernits truck/traller rental in the BFdistrict as a conditional use pennit. There are no specificconditions for truck/trailer rental, but there are the followinggeneral conditions:
1. The slte currently is a commercial use and the additlonof an accessory coDnercial uee sill not be detrinental tothe neighborhood and city.
2. The site is designated as conmercial and the propoeed useis consLstent with the designation.
3. The site is currently being used as a nini-storagefacility, which is a cornmercial use. The addition oftruck rental does not change the character of the sitenor will it change the essential character of the area.
4. The use tri1l not be hazardous or disturbing to existingor planned neighboring uses.
5. The use wllL be served adequately by essential publicfacilities and services.
6. The use will not create excessive requirenents for publicfacilities and services.
7. The use rrlll not be detrinental to any persons orproperties .
8. The site has existing access which has not caused anyproblerns. The addition of truck rental should not create
any traffic conflicts.
9. The use wiLl not result in the destruction or loss offeatures of Dajor significance.
10. The use ls not proposed to be screened fron surroundingproperties. The site is surrounded on three sides byresidences. The use is aesthetically conpatible with thesite, but not necessarily with the area.
11. The addition of a visual inpact on surrounding propertiescould depreciate surrounding property values. The factthat the use is within an existing conroercial Bite should
reduce the inpact on surrounding properties.
L2. There are no specific standards for truck/trailer rental.
The truck and trailer rental will also be partially visible frornsurrounding properties. The truck and trailer rental situation is
Brown/Dungey CUP
Novenber 6, 1991
Page 5
sinilar to the request for outside storage. If this were anoriginal application, staff uould be reconmending approval with thecondition that the storage of trucks and trailers be screened. Theexisting condition nakes such a condition difficult to inpose.
The question then is whether or not to allow the use because it isnot consistent uith the zoning ordinance (as far as screening) orto allow the existing situation to continue.
RECOT,I!,fENDATTON
Should the Planning Commission reconmend approval of theconditional use pernit for truck and trailer rental, the folloringconditions should be adopted:
2 The storage of the trucks and trailers sha]I be confined tothe area as shown on the site plan and the area have a gravel
surface .
ATTACHMENTS
Council ninutes dated May 4, L987 .pIan.
citySite1
2
1. Screening in the forn of six (5) foot high evergreens shall beadded along the fence line at the southrrest corner of thesite.
27r
City Counci I ljeeting - I'1ay 4, 1997
really feel bad about that. It,s an wrforturEte thing t}lat hap[Ened but Icertainly hope it doesnrt hatrpen again.
counci lman Johnson: trlten you say tlre 6gineer, r sourd like to c.omm6t tlatthe soil
-
borings given by his consultant that he hired shonecl it to be good.r do work with soil borings ard itrs hard for me to ber ierre t}!at we missed a 4to 5 foot deep sean of peat rriti trc soil borings in it.
larry Eor.rn: If I may Eake 6E other comment. Itre preli.minary plat tJEt wasgiven to l,lcf.Drrbs-Ioutscr, there had been an error in it at the -tirre the soilborings $ere taken ant that might account for a portion of that bad soil.BeirE that tle culde-src urentioned SteIIar 6urt sas l0 feet off-Iire. Itrras sttifted I0 feet.
Counci lman Geving:is 30 feet wide.
I still don't think tbatrs a good excuse. fhis dlamn thing
ksolution t87-36: @uncilman Geving moveil, 6rmci Iman Johnson seconded to
approve the Charge Order Request for take lrr€ry Road. AII voted in favor ardmotion carried.
COT,DITIONIAL USE PERMIT REQUEST E1}R !,IINI-STORAGE EACILITIES ON PROPERTY ZONEDF;-@e-:-usrm_-sqorSm-rcrNE-rtrAEffiIfr bffirffi mm-zf'rniE-@
Jo Ann Olsen: Just today we rec.eivecl tttese letters. Cte is frorn tbe tXRcorporatiur ard the ottpr one is frcm the city of oraska. The retter froEr&Eska states that t}ley feer that the mini-storage slrould provide sewer andwater to the site ard that they are not in totaL agr€ement that that is an
acceptabLe use for ttEt area. the letter from If,T. is conmentirg tbat thereduced requirement for Gary Broyrnis mini-storage proposal versr:s what tley
rdere requi red to provide for mini-storage in the Business park.
Councilman ceving: rlli, do they propose us getting sewer anl water to thatsite? It doesn I t make much sense does it.
Mayor Hanilton: Maybe ttey nould like to py for it.
Courci lman @ving: I€rre only about 1g niles frqn the nearest connection.
Don Ashworth: I think they trave Bater ard seh,er ttratrs relatively close. Idon't l<rrow if they are proposing.
Councilman Ceving: I di&lrt see an offer in here.
Counci lman Johnson: D you remember a previous, was it last Oouncil meeting
the City of Chaska had a lette! in our Adninistrative Section saying that tlreycouldnrt extend it out to Merle Volkts protrErty for sewer and water to thatpoint according to tlE Metropol itan Waste Control Commissiqr. It should bepretty truch the sarp here if tley say they canrt go tEst the bounilaries there.
L7
City Courci 1 leting - IGy 4, 1987
Jo Ann olsen: rE planning conrnission a;proved tle corditional use Fermitwiti Staffrs card itions ard t}l€n ttq/ also added thlee cord itions wtrich is theapplicant shal1 provide fire protection for each building and t}le site plan
"-h.11
b" reviewed by s.oeorE knowredgabre in fire proteclior. the appricantshall trxovide four soil borings for City a;proval. to determine if tw;treatment sites are availabre ard third, trrat everyttring stored an ttE sitenust be stored irithin tle buildings. sincre the rrinning oonmission m€eting,Staff bas met with tle agpl icants twie ard se have also tad tle plan
reviewed- by our fire ex[Ert. As far as the septic EyEtem, ttre apiticant tras$ryesled providing a holding tarrk ad re've csrgrltEd o'r consrilant, RogerHachmeier, and he has stated that for a snarr use, a holding tank wouia uepern issibre m tle site. ADotlEr igs.r ras also tln fercin{ ard t}e fire
IErson we talked with stated tJEt a crhainlinked fence wourd be preferable forsafety protectidL steve Maddirg, $lD se spoke with about fir; also statedthat they wanted turo alogd! m ,tre site provided for the fire tnrks. rtreyarso wanted t}e walls of the buildings to be c.orpleted lP to the ceiling sothere wourd be no attic area.. trey also recommended thal ere heat protector
be prwided within the building. .Fina).ly, a secord mears of acress- is goingto be provided by one of the alplicants nho 1ives adjacent to tlre p,roperty.
so essenti.aLry all tln concelnri have been met rte ippl icant tus proviaea- nswith a rEw p1an. tb has provided a bJrn aroud area for the fire irrcks.ltris is where the easement wilt be prwidd for the secorrtary energerEyacc€ss. I$e wiu be working for the dbtai red rardscaping pran. ottrer trnnthat, the plan noh, tneets what the plannirE Cffinissi;,s -hesitatim qr theconditional use permit. . staff is recommending t}at the city ourcil alprovethe oorditional use permit witlr tte additidt oi antmissim or an ernerg-6c1,
acEess agreement and the installation of a Lr5gg to 2fi00 ln].dlrq tank plusinstalration of a orr gallcr toilet, a q>ring 1oad€d fauc€t, a ffoat arirn aroa nan hole over the systanr if located urderneath a drivway.
!€yor Hanilton: Gary, do you have aty cuments you muld like to nake?
Galy Eohm: Nl. I,leive met errerything Ulat seive been asked to do. l{e t ouldIike to pick rp a EErmit tqnorrow ard build tnis thing.
Courpi Iman Johnson: cl the prints here t}!ey have two sig,ns mted. Right atStoughton ard ltr 212 there is the word sign ard over \l the storm wateidetention area a big word sign. r see rD nention of wrtat ie intended here.
A.re lrou trrtti.ng tp si gns here or is that just tlE Oounty sign thatrs sittingthere?
Galy Brown: ltrere is one by tlre bern area q) front. Ihere will be a sigrnyes.
Courci lman Johnson: Ard thatrs an off-site sign?
C;ary Brown: RighL AccordirE to t}!e rray I understard it, we can ptrt a signal.so on TIt 212. t€ can bave ooe on each highray.
Courcilman Johnson: Does the sign have to be m your prolErty?
Barbara Dacy: yes.
18
272
City Oounci I Meeting - l,lay 4, 1987
courci lnan Johnson: Is ttlis on your prolErty? Ttp one q) at t}le point of TH2L2 arn Stoughton? ItE orE thatts not su[posed to be there. There is ore byyour entrance ard it salls sign here arri sign here. Ihere is cr sign downhere. Thatrs a gr4rrs frontyard.
Gary Brown: thatrs not ours. O:r sign vrould be down by tle €ntraDc€ and bem our Property.
Jo Ann Olsen: lte signs irill have to 90 through tlre sign perrnit process.
Councilman Johnson: I went dolrn ald l@k€d at tlE site. I do agree ritlrchaska, this is tlle entranc€ to their city and r have nothirg qr here strowingne what you want to propose as far as an ele\ratiaL Give me an idea of whatwerre looking at here. A1I I see is roofs. I can go from t}le worse to tlrebest ard I have no idea rhat I'm going to see here.
cary Brown: Gading will stay approximatey wtEre it is.grading.
Counci lman Johnson: I mean constrrrEion of the building.
C,ary Brown: Orte story.
@urci lman Johnson: r woutd rike to see an architecturar .desigrn of it to seewhat this is going to lok like.
Ciary Brown: So are we ard thatrs r{tty re're going with colored metal. Blackbuildirgs always bleed through ard yor are forever paintirg it. If you get
colorclad metal, itrs on there ard it sta!,s on tltere.
Gpre is very little
Gary Brohrn: You have tbat here.
Councilman Johnson: I€ have that?
Mayor Hamilton: Did you nant cary to e4>lain how high it is or are you goingto keq) him frcrn an$rering?
Ciary Broim: lbere are 7 foot poles so that means )rou have about 15 feet toth. p..k of the ceilirg. 29 9au9e netal. Ite same thing that pole barns ard
machinery sheds and that stuff.
Courci lman Jotnson: Irm very concerning qt IEinting, tlle looks ard Bhateverof this.
llayor llanil-ton: Do l/ou tlave a cqlf of ttp elevatiqs there Jo Arrr?
Jo Ann Olsen: Yes.
@unci lman Johnson: Itrs more a structural drarDing than anything else.
Counci lman Hom: What Jayrs asking for, isnrt that sonethirg we tlpicallyrequire. It sesns like we review this Qpe of a drawing.
19
273
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274
City Courci I Meeting - l.tay 4, 1987
Courci lman Johnson: Generally. tast year they weot to great exlEnse for rock
face ard everything else that tlle downtorm iranted. I just irent orer to EdenEairie arE looked at one over at Eden Prairie today ard it's tlre same. Nice
looking brick ard everl.thirg. Irm corc€rned...
Oounci lman Johnson: Just because the City of Chaska sr the other side of therailroad tracks is dumgg is no reason for rrs to...I donit ttrink C,a!y is
Frtting anlthing r{) dumpy, I just dqlrt kmi, l,hat hers putting l{, yeL $rhat,syour c-olor scltsne?
Gary Brown: Erth tones.
with Staff.
I,ie yJent through the color schemes ard everything
@urci Iman Johnson:
whatever?
Staff, did 1rou have any cffinents on color scheme,
Jo Ann Olsen: Erth tones.
Courci Iman Johnson: Why corrrete curb ard grutter? I saw some of the folks on
the Planning Commission had trouble with this. I think caqr iras saying that
they want concrete curb ard gutter in here on $me areas. Irm rpt totallysrre where you are Imking for it ard how many feet yourre talking abouL Why
are rre asking for this?
Gary Brown: Since that time we have come to the agreement that itrs going to
be rolled asphalt arourd tle outside. It's going to be field all tlE h,ay
arourd this thing.
Barbara Dacy: If I can clarify. We had agreed tiat }rou t ould construct a 4to 7 ton paved surface but ou! reconunerdaticr still stards as to tlE perimeterof the site uhich is going to be corErete c{rb.
Councilman Johnson: What IErimeter are you takirg about?
Ciary liarren: ltre exterior perimeter of the parking. llct internal curbs
arourd buildings. Oltside the Snrkirg area.
CouDci lman Johnson: ltrat looks like a ntrole 1ot of linear feet of curb ardgutter.
Gary Brown: Your re right.
2A
Gary BEown: Yourve got to remember werre buililing between Gedney pickles ard
the dup.
Hayor llamilton: Yes, just l<eep in mird wtEre tlny are proposing this site tobe. Tte ore that was proposed for the Irdustrial palk ieas a totalty differentballgane. It was in a different area ccnE letely.
Councilman Johnson: Ihe City of Chaska seaE to be concerned about it too.
Uayor tlami lton: I€ybe Chaska o.rght to terd to ttreir orn business.
City Courci 1 Maeting - May 4, 1987
Gary Warren: Ib be consistent with tlE Ordinance ard also tryirE to control
drainage off tle site sqnenhat that the. qrrbing is ...
Courrilman Johnson: It oertainly rriU last longer. Ihere is qre storage areaqr in Roseville where tne brck of tle storage areas trrcple olErate businesses
out of. I want to nake sure t}lat xe are rDt going to aLlog Utat tEre. Ihat
has happened in tlr past in otlrer locations.
Counci knan Johnson! I went out ard lookeal at it, Iike I saiil, ard nost of t}te
neighbors bave their own shielding as fa! as the opaqirg of the fenc€s. It
would just be the traffic out (xl Itl 212 driving ry that would have the view.I guess I donrt have a lot of problems with the opaqirg sinoe the neighbors inthe area are pretty rreU shei lded by tneir orrn shurbery ard fences. you said
your partner in cn this is orp of the neighbors?
Gary Brovm: Yes. lE lives right rext door.
Counci Inan Gev ing: I think ore item ue should trave irctuded here on page 6 is
item II. We talked about the ctra inl inked fenc.e all tlre way through this butdidn't incluib it as orE of the corditions so I erould like to irrlude that as
number 11. Ib add the chainlinked fenc€ of 5 feet t}lat rraps arourtl theentire storage facility. Irm very rnudr in favor of this project ard IrIl tell
you r{hy. When we did .tfre zoning designation for t}ris particular area of TH
2I2, ,,te designed it for business fringe ard businesse srch as yours rrasreally what we had in minil. qEn storage areas, I really wish ne couLd have
[nrt Roman Roosr buildirE down there. It would tnve made it a lot easier butthis is what I had in mirrl when ye trrt this together. I had a couple
questions on this detentisr basin. Itrs listed as itern 4 in tlpre. I didnrt
see any plans of that going to be done. 6uld you explain that Barb wtEre
that detentian basin is going to be plac€d?
Jo llnn Olsen: It sho$s on t}te plan. llhe huge area on the north here.
Courci lman @ving: . Itis kird of rEtural low area there anyrny.
cary BEown: Itrs a natural ssrale dordn in there now wtrich we are doing a studym it through tle eng ineers.
C,ary Brown: the front berm area. Right along Stoughtm Avslue $lere ard tllen
the berm aLong ttE other side tllere irill be seeded.
Councilman Cevirg: I have no comments. Iim very much in favor of the
2l
275
cary Brolrn: Itere's rDt e\ren electricity insitle t}te hildlings.
Barbara Dacy: Itrs not allo$€d by tle minance.
Courci lman Johnson: tEve any reigtrbors hd any cqments since this?
Mayor tlani lton: ltE neighbors are Gary DrDgee ard orn other lErsqt.
Courci lman Ceving: V*pre is tlris lanclscaped area tlratrs going to be sodded?
276
project. rtrs an improvenreot to tlre area ard r reauy don't case what chaskahas to say about the ser,er ard eater ard other cwents.
Counci knan ttcrn: I don.t have any crmrcnts.
Mayor Hanilton: I don,t either. I think it,s a good projecL lt,s t}te tytrEof project ne wanted in t}at area as Ere has said. r.n mt anre rhy therehas been so mudr troubre witJr this projecL r feer bad about t$at. r rearrydo bec-ause itrs a- very stlaigh! forward project atd an awful rot of screwing-arourd for a ctold storage faci litlr but Itn gfaa to see weire to ttE [rointrrhere it can be approvei and get -m rith hrl fairg it and get *." "t^oi.g"acruplished. Any ottter questions?
!'layor lbmirton noved, oourri rnan rbrn secsndled to alprove t}!e corditional tlsePermit *87-2 $bject to tle site pIaD stanped "Received April 30r lgg7. ardthe folloUing corditions :
1. Ole tree for every 40 feet be provided alqlg tne berm between tttevehicula! area anl right-of-rray ant the bem must be tso feet. high.
2- A description of tfie prantings proposed meet tlle minimrm standards ofsix feet high (evergreens) ard trc irr*r caliper (deciduous).
3. the landscaped areas mrst be sod or Eeeded.
4. A detentidr basin slpuld be ircluded in tlE site drainage plan ard bedesigned to limit the on-site nrn{ff to t}te pre+veroparent rate fora lgg yeax stoEn event.
5. If possible, align Stoughton Avenue site access with &iveway ac.cessan the south side. of Storrghtdr AvenrE.
6. Erking areas and access &ives shall be paved rrith a dust free, allweather surface built to a { to 7 ton catEcity.
7. Corrrete cr:rb and grutter will be required crly along the outer edgeof the perimeter drive arounl tle site.
8. !b outside storage is permitted.
9. Sulmissidt of an eoergerrlz ac.cess easdnert agreanent.
LS. Installation of a lr5gg to 2,ggg holding tank, plus instaLlation of a
orE gallon toilet, a spring loaded fzucet, a float alarm, ani a manhole over tlle systsn if Iocated underneath a drivway.
11. Chainlinkeil fercing at.5 feet high be arourd the 1Erineter of ttEstorage area.
AI1 voted in favor ard rnotion carried.
22
City Courri 1 tteeting - Uay 4, I9B7
I
CITY OF
EH[I{H[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE' P.O. BOX 147' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 5531 7
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
septeEber 5, 1991
Mr. Gary Brown
1831 Koehnen CircleExcelsior, l,[N 553 31
Dear Gary:
Staff recently visited your uini-storage site to confirn that it isin conpliance with the conditional use pernit issued to you on l{ay4, 1987 . The conditional use gernit was issued with severalconditions (see attached). A specific condition of approval wasthat no outside storage is pernitted. Upon inspection of yoursite, staff noticed outside storage rf boats, U-Haul trailers, etc.
The BF district does not aIlow outside storage as a pernitted useand it lras specifically prohibited as a condition of your
conditional use permit approvaL. If you uish to continue to haveoutside storage at your ninL-storage 6ite you nust appLy for an
arnendment to your conditional use pernit. You should be nade awarethat outside storage is required to be Ecreened and that screening
would be a condition of approval . The renting of U-Hau1 trailersis a separate use from the nini-storage and is permitted in the BFdistrict by a conditional use pernit.
Please contact ne sithin 10 days of receivlng this letter to let me
know what action you would Iike to tahe. Should you have anyquestions, please feel free to contact me.
s incerely,
offi7-
Jo Ann Olsen
Senior Planner
Jo:v
PauI Krauss, Planning Director
steve Nelson, Building fnspector
Planning Cornmissioncity Council
o,L'
Pc:
PRINTED ON RECrcLED PAPER
Certified Iptter
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CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
ME},IORANDUM
TO:
IROM:
DATE:
SU&':
Planning Conmission
Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner
October 10, 199L
Mooring of Watercraft
Attached is an ordinance anending Chapters 6 and 20 of theChanhassen City Code concerning nooring of watercraft. Thisanendnent was initiated by Councilnan Wing, who is concerned thatboats can be rnoored anywhere in a lake, even in front of privateproperty. The ordinance amendnent states that rratercraft can onlybe moored in front of the lakeshore site to r,rhon it is currentlyregistered. The ordinance also states that no rratercraft shall bamoored, docked, or stored in the dock setback zone or into theextended side lot lines of any lakeshore site. The planning
Cornmission wiII only be acting on the anendment to the ZoningOrdinance, Section 20-263 (L6).
RECOMMENDATI ON
Staff recomrflends the Planning Conmision adopt the following notion:
t'The Planning Cornmission reconnends approval of an amendnent toSection 20-263 by adding subparagraph (15) to read as follows:
No lratercraft shall be noored, docked, or stored in the docksetback zone in such a r{ray that the watercraft or any partthereof extends across the extended side }ot lines of anylakeshore site.
ATTACHMENT
L. Proposed ordinance amendrnent.
ODl.t!?PRINTEO ON RECrcLED PAPER
CAN,IPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, PA.
Attomels at Lau'
r 6ll ' -lr:-iiJa
F.r\ \bl:\.li:-ii;a
Septenber 30, 1991
l,!r. Paul Kraussl,lr. Scott Harr
Chanhassen City Hall
590 coulter Drive, Box 147
chanhassen, ltinnesota 55317
RE: llooring of watercraft
Dear Paul and Scott:
Enclosed please find ordinance amending Chapters 6 and 20 of
the chanhassen city code concerning mooring of watercraft. Please
call if you have questions or conments.
Very truly yours,
&
Roger N. Knutson
RNK: srn
Enc losure
l...F.ra l-:rH.' i.,Ill
":
i.'
P.A.
SLrit. lli . EasanJale (-)ttice Cenrer . lJS0 Corporate Center Cun'e . Eagan, MN 5i111
Th.,rn.,. I t.ar:r1h.ii
. R,,,:.r \ L,rur''r:
Th.,rrra. \1. St,,t
C.rr,. (i. Fuchr
l.rmt. R \\,,t.r,'n
Ellr,,rr l\ Nn. r* ir
CTTY OF CIIANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COT'NTIES, !{INNESOTA
III ORDINANCE II,IEITDIUG CEIPTERA 6 AND 2 O
OF TEE CE}NEAAAEX CITY CODE COI'CERITING
U@RItrG OF TATERCR.ETI
THE CITY COI]NCIL OT THE CITY OF CHANIIASSEN ORDAINS:
(b) No $ratercraft shall be moored or docked overnight
on the lrater of any lake unless it is currently registeredpursuant to ltlinnesota statutes chapter 361 in the name ofthe owner of the lakeshore site in front of which thewatercraft is uroored or docked.
Section 2.Section 6-27 of the Chanhassen City Code is
amended by adding subparagraph (c) to read:
(c) No iratercraft shall be noored, docked, or storedin the dock setback zone in such a r^ray that the s/atercraftor any part thereof extends across the extended side lotlines of any lakeshore site.
Section 3.Section 20-263 of the Chanhassen City Code is
amended by adding subparagraph (16) to read as follows:
No watercraft shall be noored, docked, or stored in the dock
setback zone in such a rray that the rratercraft or any part
thereof extends across the extended side lot lines of any
lakeshore site.
SectioD {. This ordinance shalI be effective imrnedi ate 1y
upon its passage and publication.
PASSED AND ADOPTED by the Chanhassen City Council this _day of , 199]-.
ATTEST :
Don Ashworth, clerk/Manager Donald J. chm
(Published in the chanhassen villager on
09/30/91
1e 1, Mayor
r-9 91 . )
oRDINANCE N0. _
Sectiop 1. Section 6-27 (b) of the Chanhassen City Code is
amended to read:
CITY OF
CH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937,1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
I{EMOR,ANDIJ}I
TO: Planning Cornmission
FROM: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner
DATE: October 10, 1991
SULr: Nonconformin!, Uses, Structures and Ipts
RECOMMENDATI ON
Attached is an ordinance anendment from the City Attorney providingnev, regulations on nonconforroi,ng uses, structures ana lots.Currently, the City Code has a section entitled nonconfornine, useswhich contains sorne regulations on nonconforning uses and lots.Staff wanted to include a more detailed description in thissection. For example, in Carver Beach we were proceJsing variancesfor structures on nonconforming lots even though the structure rnetall setbacks. The ne!, regulations would not require a variance forthis type of situation. The new reg,ulations are more clear as toeach type of nonconformity.
Staff recommends the
notion:Planning Commission adopt the following
rrThe Planning Comrnission recoDmends approvalordinance amendment concerning nonconfornin!, uses,lots as shown j.n Attachrnent #1tr.
of the zoningstructures, and
ATTACHMENT
1. Zoning Ordinance Arnenduent.
ODt,PRINTED ON RECrcLEO PAPER
a
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON SCOTT & FUCHS, PA.
Art,rrnets at Lau'
Th.'n;.1 Campi'.ll
Rog. r' \. Knur',Ir
Th,,nr.r' \i St,,tr
G.rn (l Fuihs
James R \'.rlsr,.n
EIlr.,rt B. Kn.r'cir
(611) 451'i trl1tl
Fax (6ll) 451-i5ii
October 9, 1997
IIr. Paul Krauss
Chanhassen City Ea1l
690 Coulter Drive, Box 147
Chanhassen, ![innesota 55317
RE: Nonconforming Uses,Structures, and Lots
Dear Paul :
Enclosed please find ordinance anending Chapter 20 of the City
Code concerning nonconforroing uses, structures, and Lots.
Very truly yours,
LL,
CHS ,P.A
oN, scoTT
&
BY:
Roger N.tson
RNK: srn
EncI osure
Suite i17 . E,rganJale Office Center . 1380 Corporate Center Cun'e . Eagan, I,IN 55lll
CITY OF CHANIIASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, IIINNESOTA
AN ORDIIIAIICE IIIEIIDIf,G CEIPTER 2 O OF
AEE CEI}IEASSEX CIAY CIODE C{)NCERITIXG
NON-COUFORXTNG U888, STRITCTIIRES , AtrD rpTS
THE CITY COI'NCIL OF THE CITY OF CHANHASSEN ORDAINS:
Section 1.Section 20-1 of the Chanhassen City code is
amended by adding the follorring definitions to read:
NoDcoBforDiDg Lot. A lot that does not conply with the
requirenents of this chapter but which did conply withapplicable ordinance requireroents at the tine the lot was
created.
NoDcolrforEiDg Structure. Any building or structure that
does not comply with the requireraents of this chapter but
which did conply with applicable ordinance reguirements atthe tine it was constructed or put in p1ace.
NoDcoDforniDg Us6. A use of land that does not conply withthe requirenents of this chapter but which did cornply with
applicable ordinance requirements at the tiure the use rras
establ i shed .
EectioD 2.chapter 20, Article If, Division 4 of the
Chanhassen City Code is amended in its entirety to read as
follows:
8.c. 20-71. PITRPOAE.
The purpose of this Division is:
A. To recognize the existence of uses, Iots, and structures
which were lat ful rhen established, but which no longer neet all
ordinance requirements ;
B. To prevent the enlargement, expansion, J.ntensification,or extension of any nonconforning use, building, or structure i
oRDTNANCE NO. _
c. To encourage the elinination of nonconforming uses,lots, and structures or reduce their inpact on adjacentproperties .
10/09/91
gEC. 2O.7 2 . f,ONCOIIFORI,II}IG U8E8 IITD ETRUCTI'RE8 .
A. There sha11 be no extrransion, intensification, replace-nent, structural change, or relocation of any nonconforming useor nonconforrning structure except to lesser or elininate thenonconfornity.
B. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this chapter,any detached single fanily dwelling that is on a nonconforninglot or that is a nonconforning use or structure nay be altered,or expanded provided, however, that the nonconfornity nay not beincreased. If a setback of a dwelling is nonconforning, noadditions may be added to the nonconforning side of the buildingunless the addition neets setback requirernents.
c. No nonconforning use shalL be resumed if nornaloperation of the use has been discontinued for a period of twelve(12) or rnore nonths. Tine shall be calculated as beginning on theday following the last day in rshich the use was in nornaloperation and shall run continuously thereafter. Fottowing theexpiration of twelve (12) nonths, only land uses which arepermitted by this ordinance shall be lllosed to be estabfished.
D. Full use of a nonconforoing land use shall not beresumed if the amount of land or floor area dedicated to the useis lessened or if the intensity of the use is in any mannerdiminished for a period of twelve (12) or nore nonths. tine shallbe.calculated as beginning on the day following the last day inwhich the nonconforning land use rras in fuII operation and lhallrun continuously thereafter. Following the expiration of twelve(12) nonths, the nonconforning land use rnay be used only in thelnanner or to the extent used during the preceding twelve (12)months. For the purposes of this section, intensity of use sha1lbe neasured by hours of operation, traffic, noise, exteriorstorage, signs, odors, nunber of eEployees, and other factorsdeemed relevant by the City.
E. Removal or destruction of a nonconforning structure tothe extent of more than fifty percent (5Ot) of iti estirnatedmarket vaIue, excluding land value and as deternined by the City,shall terninate the right to continue the nonconformingstructure.
F. Notwithstanding the prohibitions contained in theforegoing paragraphs
_ of this section, if approved by the cityCouncil a nonconforning land use nay be chinged to lnothernonconformins ]?nq use of less intensity if it is in the publicinterest. fn all instances the applicanl has the burden oi proofregarding the relative intensities of uses.
G. If a nonconforming land use is superseded or replaced bya.permitted use, the nonconforning status of tfre prenisei and an!rights which arise under the provisions of this sLction shaIlterninate.
-2-
sEC. 20'73. NONCONFORI,IING IPTS OF RECORD.
A. No variance shfanily dwelling located
destroyed by natural di
has a footprint which istructure and is substa
and floor area as the d
commence within tlro (2)the original building a
completing the proj ect.to construction of thebe constructed in conplregulations.
all be reguired to reconstruct a single
on a nonconforming lot of record which issaster so long as the replacement dwellings no larger than that of the destroyedntially the same size in building heightestroyed structure. Reconstruction shallyears of the date of the destruction ofnd reasonable progress shaI1 be made in
A building perrnit sha11 be obtained prior
new drrelling and the new structure shall
iance with aII other City codes and
B. No variance sha1l be reguired to construct a detachedsingle family dwelling on a nonconforming 1ot provided that itfronts on a public street or approved private street and providedthat the width and area neasurements are at least seventy-fivepercent (758) of the minimun reguirements of this chapter. If two(2) or more contiguous lots are in single ownership and if all orpart of the lots do not meet the width and area requirenents ofthis chapter for lots in the district, the contiguous lots shallbe considered to be an undivided parcel for the purpose of thischapter. If part of the parcel is sold, the sale sha1I constitutea self-created hardship under the variance provisions of thischapter.
section 3.This ordinance shall be effective inrmediately
-upon its passage and publication.
PASSED AND ADOPTED by the Chanhassen City Council this _
day of , L991-.
A?TEST:
Don Ashworth, Clerk/Manager Donald J. Chnie] , Irlayor
1991. )
-3-
(Published in the Chanhassen Viltager on
4CITY OF
EH[I-IH[SSEII
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
I.{EMORANDI,liI
TO:
FRO}I:
DATE:
SULI:
Plannin{ Connission
Jo Ann olsen, Senior Planner (aJ
October 29, L99l
Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Add Bus Shelters and Park
and Ride Lots
The City will be receiving a request in the near future for a park
andStr
r1 d
ord
ess
rL d
a
conrig
Slna farnerrs rnarket could be allowed as of the conditional use
itern that the anendnentservices and allowing
permit for a park and ride Iot. The fiprovides for is a inition of essenti
essential services a permitted use in I zoning districts.
Staff reconmends t}.e attachedordinance amendnent adding provisions concern essentialservices, bus shelters nd park and ride lots.
ATTAC}II,TENT
1. Zoning ordinance Amendment
CDD.a!7 PRINTED ON REC\CLED PAPEB
RECOMMENDATION
-
RECEIYEE
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, P.A.JUN 0519e1
futorrrls at Larl. Glfy 0F Urrrrrnassffu
Thomas l. Campbell
Roger N. Knutson
Thomas M. Scott
Gary G. Fuchs
James R Walston
Elliott B Kneoch
(612\ 456.9s39
Fax (6121 4569542
June 3, 1991
Ur. Paul Krauss
chanhassen city Ha1I
590 coulter Drive, Box 147
chanhassen, l,linnesota 55317
RE: Bus Shelters/Park & Ride Lot ordinance
Dear Paul:
Enclosed is the revised bus shelter,/park and ride lot
ordinance you reguested which adds the definition irfarners I narketrr
under section 2o-1 of the City Code.
I y yours,
BELL,soN, scoTT
P.A&
N. Knutson
RNK: srn
Enclosure
Yankee Square Office III ' Suite 202 ' 3460 Washington Drive ' Eagan, MN 55122
cc: Jo Ann Olsen
ORDINANCE NO.
rlI ORDINIITCB IIIETDTf,g SETP'ITEB 20 OI TEEgEllIElaSElt CITY CODE, lrEE ZOIIIUC OnDIIIIICB,
BY IDDIUC PROYIAIOTS COTCEnIIITG I88EIITIIL
aERYICBS , BU8 8EBr..TEna, lIlD plnx ltID IIDB rrrs
TIIE CITY COT'NCIL OF THE CITY OF CHA}IHASSEN ORDAINS:
Scctl,oD 1.Section 20-1 of the Chanhassen City Code is
anended by adding the follolring definition:
Farners I llarket means occasional sales held outdoors uhere agroup of farmers prinarily offer the produce and fruit whichthey have raised for sa1e.
gectlop 2. Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen Clty Code is
anended by adding Section 2O-92O to read as follows:
a6c. 20-920. EUB thalt€rs aDA Bus B6Dch€s.
The erection or placeEent of bus shelters and bus benches onpublic right-of-uays or property orned by the City is perEittedin all zoning districts by conditional use pernit.
Sectior 3.Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code is
aDended by adding Section 2O-92L to read as follous:
8ec. 20-921. Part aDd Ride Lots.
Parking lots intended for use by persons parking their carsto use public transportation is pernitted by conditional usepennit in all zoning districts except residential districts. Iheconditional use pernit nay allow use of the lot as a farners r
narket. Park and ride Lot6 are prohibited in resldentialdistricts.
8€ctLoD a.Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code is
anended by adding Section 20-922 to read as follows:
8.c. 20-922. EaseDttal 8orvlc.r.
Except as provided in Section 2O-9OL, essential services area pernitted use in all zoning districts and are exempt fron theprovisions of this Chapter.
aactlon 5. Chapter 20, Section 2O-1 of the Chanhassen City
Code is arnended by adding the followlng definition:
106/03/91
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COT'NTTES, I{II{NESOTA
rrEsssDtirl Servlcasrt. Underground or overhead gas,
electrical, ateam or uater transnission or distribution
systeros i collection, conmunication, supply or disposal
systems lncludlng poles, rires, nains, drains, sewers,pipes, conduits, cab1e6, fire alaru boxes, police call
boxes, traffic slgnals, hydrants, or other sinilar equipnent
and accessories in conjunction therewLth, but not including
bui).dings .
SoctioD 5.This ordinance shall be effectlve inraediately
upon its passage and off icial publication.
PASSED AND ADOPTED by the chanhassen City Council this
-
day of , 1991.
ATTEST:
Don Ashrrorth, clerk /l,lanager Donald J. chniel , uayor
( Publ ished in the chanhassen Villager on , 1991. )
-2-
(-(
CITY OF
CH[NH[SSEN
MEI,{ORANDI.IM
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUR':
Planning Conmission
Jo Ann olsen, Senior Planner
October 29, L99l
Zoning ordinance Amendnent For site PIan Approvals
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA55317
(61 2) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
Staff directed the City Attorney to draft a zoning ordinance
anendnent which would require the terms and conditions of approvalof site plans to be in a pernit sigmed by the property and the cityand the contract nust be recorded against the title of theproperty. Staff did this to gnrarantee that the conditions of site
pLan approval are recorded against the property and can therefore
be enforced for the duration of the site plan use.
RECOMMENDATION
Staff recommends the Planning Corunissj.on approve the attached
zoning ordinance amendrnent requiring development contracts for siteplan approvals as shown in Attachment #1.
a,).4!t PRINTED ON RECrcLED PAPER
ATTACHMENT
1. Zoning ordinance anendment.
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, PA.
Attorncrs at Larr
September 6, 1990
CITY 0F L)h^,\rrAssEN
(6r?) 456-95t9
Far (611) 456-9541
Thomas.). Camphell
R.ryer N. Nnutson
Thonus Nl. Scr)tt
Gan G. Fuch.
James R. Valst,,n
Elliort B. Knet,ch
Gregon D Lewis
Dnnis J. Lnsrr
Ivlr . PauI Kraus s
Chanhassen City HaI1
690 Coulter Drive, Box
Chanhassen, Minnesota
147
5531'7
RE: Site Plan Permit
Dear PauI:
Pursuant to your request, enclosed please find an ordinance
amending the Cj-tyrs zoning ordinance by adding Section 20-122
concerning site plan permits, together i.rith a proposed site planpermit. Pfease calI $/ith your comments or questions.
Very truly urs,
C BELL UTSON, SCOTT
AS, P
rN utson
RNI(: Srn
Enclosures
Yankee Square Offlce Ill . Suire 202 . 3460 Washingron Dri\e . Eagan, MN 55122
RECEIUEE
sEP 0 7 1990
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, IIIINNESOTA
AN ORDIIIAIICE AI{EITDIT{G CEAPTER 2 O OT TEE CEAIIEASAEIT
CIIIY CODE, lrEE CITY I g ZONI c ORDITIEITCE
The City Council of the City of Chanhassen ordains:
SectioD 1.Section 20-122 to
gec. 2g-t22. gite plar pernit.
SectioD 2.
The chanhassen City Code is anended by addingread as folLows:
The terms and conditions of approvaL of the site plan shaI1be enbodied in a pernit signed by the property owner and thecity. The permit shal1 be recorded againsl tha title to theproperty.
upon its passage
This ordinance shall be effective imrnediateLy
and publication.
PASSED AND ADOPTED by the Chanhassen City Council thisday of
ATTEST:
Don Ashworth, Clerk/Hanager Donald J. chm IE I, Mayor
(Published in the Chanhassen Villager on 1990. )
ORDINANCE NO.
,1990.
CITY OT CEANEA8 8EN
SITE PLilI PERI{III
SPECIAL PROVIAION8
AGREETIENT dated _, l9- t by and between the CITY
OF CHANHASSEN, a l,linnesota nunicipal corporation, (the trcityrr), and
_, (the rrDeveloperrr ) .
1. Raquest for Sito PIaD lpproval. The Developer has asked
the City to approve a site pLan for
(referred to in this Pernit as the trprojectl). The land is Iega1Iy
described on the attached Exhibit irAit.
2. Conditioaa of 8ite Platl tpproval. ?he city hereby approves
the site plan on condition that the Developer enter into this Perni.t and
furnish the security required by it.
3. DevelopDeat Plaas. The project shall be developed and
rnaintained in accordance with the follouing plans. The plans shall not
be attached to this Contract. If the plans vary from the sritten terns
of thj.s Pernit, the nritten terns shaLl control. The plans are:
Plan A--Site Plan dated
prepared by
PIan B--crading, Drainage, and Erosion Control Plan dated
L9 _, prepared by
Plan c--Landscaping Plan dated t9- ,prepared by
09/06/90
-, l9--,
Plan D--
Plan E--
a. fl'!o ol Porfotranca. Ttre Developer shall Lnstall aIl
required screening and landscaping by , 19_. The Developer
may, however, request an extension of tiDe from the City. If an exten-
sion is granted, it shatl be conditioned upon updating the security
posted by the Devel,oper to reflect cost increases and the extended
.onpletion date.
5. Security. To guarantee conpliance irith the terns of this
Permit, the Developer shall furnish the city uith a letter of credit
fronabank,cashescrow,orequiva1ent(trsecurityl!)for$-.
6. Notices. Required notices to the Developer shaIl be in
writing, and shall be either hand delivered to the Developer, its
eroployees or agents, or nailed to the Developer by registered nail at
the foll-owing address:
Notices to the City sha1I be in writing and shall be either hand
delivered to the City lrlanager, or nailed to the City by registered mail
in care of the city l!{anager at ttte following address: Chanhassen City
HaII, 690 Coulter Drive, P.O. Box 147, Chanhassen, I.linnesota 55317,
Telephone (612) 937-L900.
7. Otber apecial coDAitions. (This section to include
conditions of approval from the site plan review).
-2-
8. ceDeral Coadltlons. The general conditions of this pernit,
approvedbytheCitycounciIon-,l9-,areattachedas
Exhibit rrBrr and incorporated herein.
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
BY
Donald J. Chniel, Mayor
( sEAL)
AND:
Don Ashworth, City l,lanager
DEVEI,OPER:
Its
STATE OF MINNESOTA
COUNTY OF CARVER
STATE OF UINNESOTA
COUNTY OF
day of
)
(
)
ss.
ss.
The foregoing instrurnent was acknorrledged before ne thisday of , L9 _, by Donald J. Chniel , Uayor, and by Don-Ashworth, City Uanager, of the City of Chanhassen, i Uinnesota nunicipalcorporation, on beharf of the corporation and pursuant to the authorilygranted by its City Council .
NOTARY PUBLTC
)
(
)
The foregoing instrunent was acknowledged before ue this, L9- , bY
NOTARY PUBLIC
-3-
BY:
DRAFTED BY:canpbell, Knutson, Scott
& Fuchs, P.A.
3460 Washington Drive, Suite 202
Eagan, l,linnesota 55L22(612) 456-9539
, feeowners of all or part of the subject propertis governed by the foregoing Site plan perni
provisions thereof and agree to be bound by
The foregoing instrune
day of , 19_, by
y, the development of whicht, affirn and consent to thethe provisions as the same
nt uas acknowledged before ne this _
nay apply to that portion of the subject property onned by then.
Dated this _ day of 19_.
)
(
)
STATE OF I,IINNESOTA
COUNTY OF
ss.
NOTARY PUBLIC
DRAFTED BY:
'Campbell, Knutson, Scott
& Fuchs, P.A.
3460 Washington Drive, Suite 202
Eagan, l,linnesota 55L22(612) 4 s5-e 53 9
-4-
CONSENT
CITY OF CEAIIEAASEN
8ITE PIi}I PERIIIT
EEIBI! rtBx
GENER.AL CONDITIONA
-5-
1. Rigbt to Procaod. Hithin the site plan area, the Developer
nay not grade or otherwise disturb the earth, remove trees, construct
inprovenents, or any buildings until all the folloning conditions have
been satisfied: 1) this agreernent has been fully executed by both
parties and filed with the City Clerk, 2) the necessary security and
fees have been received by the City, 3) the site plan has been recorded
with the County Recorderts Office of the County where the proj ect is
located, and 4) the City Planner has issued a letter that the foregoing
conditions have been satisfied and then the Developer may proceed.
2. NaiDteDaDc€ of 8it€. The site shall be naintained in
accordance with the approved site plan. Plants and ground cover required
as a condition of site plan approval which die shall be pronptly
replaced.
3. Licersa. The Developer hereby grants the City, its agents,
employees, officers and contractors a license to enter the plat to
perforn all work and inspections deened appropriate by the City in
conjunction with site plan developnent.
a. Brosio! CoDtrol. Before the site is rough graded, and
before any building pernits are issued, the erosion control plan, plan
B, shall be inplemented, inspected, and approved by the City. The City
nay i:npose additional erosion control requirements if they would be
beneficial . A11 areas disturbed by the excavation and backfilling
operations shall be reseeded forthwith after the completion of the uork
in that area. Except as othen ise provided in the erosion control plan,
seed shall be certified seed to provide a temporary gEound cover as
rapidly as possible. All seeded areas sha1l be fertilized, Dulched, and
disc anchored as necessary for seed retention. fhe parties recognize
that tirne is of the essence in controlling erosion. If the Devel.oper
does not conply with the erosion control plan and schedule or
supplenentary instructj.ons received from the City, the City may take
such action as it deens appropriate to control erosion at the
Developerrs expense. The City will endeavor to notify the Developer in
advance of any proposed action, but failure of the City to do so wiII
not affect the Developerrs and Cityrs rights or obligations hereunder.
No development ui1I be allowed and no building pernits wiII be issued
unless there is full conpliance with the erosion control requirenents.
Erosion control shall be naintained until vegetative cover has been
restored. After the site has been stabilized to where, in the opinion of
the City, there is no longer a need foi erosion control, the City rriU
remove the erosion control measures. Before the City signs the site
plan, the Developer sha11 pay the City a fee of $t.OO per foot of
erosion control that is required to be constructed j.n accordance with
the erosion control plan for the project, plan B, to cover the cityrs
cost for removal.
5. CleaD uIr. The Developer sha11 maintain a neat and orderly
rrork site and shal1 daily c1ean, on and off site, dirt and debris,
including blouables, from streets and the surrounding area that has
resulted from construction work by the Developer, its agents or assj.gns.
-6-
6. farraaty. A1I trees, grass, and sod required in the
approved Landscaping p1an, plan C, shall be uarranted to be aIive, of
good quality, and disease free at the tine of ptanting. All trees sha1l
be warranted for twelve (12) nonths fron the tine of planting. The
Developer or his contractor(s) shall post Daintenance bonds (lliller
Davis Conpany Forn No. L535 or equal ) or other security acceptable to
the City to secure the rrarranties at the tine of final acceptance.
?. Re3polsibillty for Coats.
A. The Developer sha11 hold the city and its officers and
enployees hamless fron claims made by itself and third parties for
damages sustained or costs incurred resulting fron site plan approval
and deveropment. The Developer sha11 indennify the city and its officers
and enployees for all costs, danages, or expenses which the city nay pay
or incur in consequence of such clairns, including attorneys i fees.
B. The Developer shall reinburse the City for costs
incurred in the enforcement of this pernit, including engineering and
attorneysr fees.
C. The Developer shall pay in full a1I bitLs subnitted to
it by the city for obligations incurred under this perrnit wi.thin thirty
(3o) days after receipt. If the bi11s are not paid on tiDe, the City nay
hart all plat developDent work and construction. Birls not paid within
thirty (30) days shall accrue interest at the rate of Bt per year.
8. Devaloperta Default. In the event of default by the
Developer as to any of the work to be perforned by it hereunder, the
city nay, at its option, perforn the work and the Developer shal1
promptly reimburse the City for any expense incurred by the City,
provided the Developer is first given notice of the work in default, not
-7-
less than four (4) days ln advance. This contract is a license for the
City to act, and it shall not be necessary for the City to seek a Court
order for pernission to enter the land. l{hen the City does any such
work, the City rnay, ln addition to its other remedies, assess the cost
in whole or in part.
9. Idiscelllrleous.
A. Construction Trailers. Placement of on-site
construction trailers and tenporary job site offices shall be approved
by the City Engineer. Trailers sha1l be removed fron the subject
property within thirty (30) days following the issuance of a certificate
of occupancy unless otherwise approved by the City Engineer.
B. Postal Service.The Developer shall provide for the
naintenance of postal service in accordance wlth the local postnaster t s
request.
c. Third Parties. Third parties shall have no recourse
against the City under this Pernit.
D. Breach of Contract.Breach of the terms of this Permit
by the Developer shall be grounds for denial of building pernits.
E, severability.If any portion, section, subsection,
sentence, clause, paragraph, or phrase of this perrnit is for any reason
held invalid, such decision shall not affect the validity of the
renaining portion of this Contract.
f'. Occupancy.Unless approved in writing by the City
Engineer, no one may occupy a building for which a building pernit is
issued on either a temporary or pertnanent basis until the streets needed
for access have been paved with a bituninous surface.
-8-
c. Waivers/Amendnents. The action or inaction of the Cit v
sha11 not constitute a waiver or anendDent to the provisions of this
Contract. To be binding, anendments or uaivers shall be in writing,
signed by the parties and approved by uritten resolution of the City
council. The Cityrs faifure to pronptly take legal action to enforce
this contract sha11 not be a waiver or release.
H. Recording.This Pernit shaLl run uith the land and nay
be recorded against the title to the property.
r.
upon the city is
Remedies.Each right, pouer or renedy herein conferred
cunulative and in addition to every other right, pouer
or reDedy, express or inplied, now or hereafter arising, available to
City, at 1aw or in equity, or under any other agreenent, and each and
every right, pohrer and remedy herein set forth or otherwise so existlng
nay be exercised frour tine to tine as often and in Euch order as Day be
deerned expedient by the City and shall not be a waiver of the right to
exercise at any
J.
operated between
tiure thereafter any other right, polrer or reDedy.
Construction Hours.Construction equipnent may only be
7:O0 a.m. and 5:OO p.m., Iilonday through Saturday.
Operation of construction equipnent is also prohibited on the following
holidays: New Yearrs Day, t[enorial Day, Juty 4th, Labor Day,
Thanksgiving Day, Christrnas Eve Day, and Christmas Day.
K. goil Treatnent Systems.
-9-
If soil treatnent systens are
required, the Developer shal1 clearly identify in the field and protect
fron alteration, unless suitable alternative sites are first provided,
the two soil treatnent sites identified during the site plan process for
each 1ot. This shall be done prior to the issuance of a Grading pernit.
Any violation/disturbance of these sites shall render theu as
unacceptable and
violated site in
L.
replacement sites will need to be located for each
order to obtain a building pernit.
CompLiance lrith Laws, Ordinances, and Regulations. fn
the developnent of the
Iars, ordi.nances, and
site plan the Developer shall comply with all
regulations of the following authorities:
city of chanhassen istate of ltlinnesota, its agencies, departnents
and conmissions iUnited states ArI[y corps of Engineerst
Watershed District;uetropolitan Government, its agencies, departnents
and connissions.
Il. Proof of Title.Upon request, the Developer sha11
furnish the city with evidence satisfactory to the City that it has the
authority of the fee orrners and contract for deed purchasers too enter
into this DevelopDent contract.
N. Soil Conditions.The Developer acknowledges that the
city nakes no representations or uarranties as to the condition of the
soils on the property or its fitness for construction of the inprove-
ments or any other purpose for vhich the Developer may nake use of such
property. The Developer further agrees that it will indennify, defend,
and hold harnless the City, its governing body Denbers, officers, and
employees fron any clains or actions arising out of the presence, if
any, of hazardous wastes or poLlutants on the property, unless hazardous
wastes or pollutants were caused to be there by the city.
o. SoiI Correction.The Developer shall be responsible
for soil correction work on the property. The city makes no represen-
tation to the Developer concerning the nature of suitability of soils
nor the cost of correcting any unsuitable soil conditions which nay
exist.
1
2
3
4
5
-10-
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COI,IMISSION
REGULAR HEETING
ocToBER 2, 7991
HEHBERS PRESENT:Tim Erhart, Ladd Conrad,Anr,: tte EIIson, Steve Emmings,
the first item-Briarr BaLzIi. Jeff Farmakes arrived after
MEHEE 39--QB$Elll-:- Joan Ahr ens
F PRESENf: PauI Krauss, Planning Director; Kathy Aanenson, Planner II
PUBLIC HEARING:
REPL AT OF LOT 3. BLOCK 1 . CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK sTH ADDITION INTO
TI^IO PARCELS ANO SITE PLAN REVIET^I FOR THE CONSTRU F A 15.OOO SAUARE
FOOT OF F I CE,/I^'AREHOUSE BUILDING ON PROPERTY ZONED IO P AND LOCATED AT THE
NOR THI,IES T CORNER OF PARK PLACE AND PARK ROAD INTERSECTION,MAIL SOURCE.
r NC _.-,_R.J. RYAN C N STRUCTION.
Kathy Aanenson presented the
callerj the public hear-ing to
staff reporL on this item. Chairman Emmings
or der .
Ernmi ng:: Is there someone
chance to revieur the staff
for appr ova I ?
here representing Lhe applicant? Haveyeport and the condiLions that they've
you had a
su gges t ed
Tonr Ryan: Yes. f'm Toff Ryan. I represent R.J. Ryan ConstrucLion. I meL
yesterday with the engineering dePartmenL and I believe we resolved anv
issues regar ding the grading and drainage and parking concerns. tle wi]] be
subnrit-Ling revised grading plan but as much as anything there Here some
misinterpretations of our plan, I'm confident Lhe new PIan will meet the
engineering department,s request. t^,le would like to ask you Lo consider not
requiring us to screen our roofLop equiPment- These will be 3 and 4 ton
rooftop equipment. tle have very small office areas we're going to develoP-
Maximum heig,ht on these units wou.ld be 42 inches high. [.le ulou]d certain]y
paint lhem either to blend with the buildins or to blend wiLh the roof if
the City would request but we found tha! we would certainly be the
exception in that area rather than the rule if we did have screened rooftoP
equipment. t^le also agreed yesterday with Paul Krauss that we would submit
a letter saying that we intend to have inside trash storage only- The
owner's operation doesn't generaLe trash and he doesn't want any outside
trash enclosures.
Emminss: t^lhat business is it going to be? All it savs in Lhe Packet was
they're going to sort mail.
Torn Ryan: That's really iL, They're bulk mail processors. Thev geL bulk
mail in" They put labels on it and thev ship iL out Lhe door - Although
not a formal request r guess from the Planning Department, we would not
Iike to install any more windows on the east or west side of Lhe building
as they would interfere with Lhe oulner's oPeration as he's got mailbags
slacked near the ceiling on the perimeter walIs of the building- tle feel
we've aesthetically designed Lhe building that fits in with the other
builciings in the area and trould hoPe that you understand that it would jusL
Lake wall space away from him in his ttarehouse oPeration. Our final
Chairman Enrmings called lhe meeti ng to order at 7:35 P.m..
Plannj ng Commission MeeLing
October 2, 1,99), - Page 2
request urou L d be that
Lhe developed portion
the rest of it if and
you consider levying the park and trail fees only on-of the ProPerLy as money's a Iittle tight and collect I
when we develop it but that parcel may be sold.
Emmings: Now ]et me undersEand. you only want Lo do it on parcel A?
We'd Iike you to consider thatof our parcel. Take half of it
Emnri ngs: Anythi ng else?
re o n1y developing sIightIy
and take half of it laLer.
Tom Ryan;
over half
Conrad moved ,favor and the
we'
now
Aanenson: Parcel A, a portion of parcel A. Is that urhat you're saying?
Tom Ryan: A portion of Parcel A
Tom Ryan: That 's it -
Emrri ngs: Okay . Thiswould like Lo comment
is a public hear i ng .on this?Is there anybody else here who-
EIlson
motion
seconded to cLose the publiccarried. The public hear i n9
hearing - All voted in
uas closed.
exception if they have to screen theis we require screening of rooflopThere's a gap here between what I
request that we don't add windowsoperation of Lhe building internaJ. Iy? -
Emmings: He said that they'd be therooftop equipment. My under sLa ndi ngequipment on every building in town.thought arrd what I'm hearing.
Krauss: It is an ordinance requirement to screen rooftop equipment. No, -]there have been insLances where if a rooftop is not visible because ofparapet r.,al]s or because of surr'ounding topography, in the use of lowprofile units ue've allowed them to go on and just paint them a flat color r-and you can't see thenr. The reference to having a number of buildings witlunscreened equipment in lhe park, it,s true. There is some but I thinkit's more due to the fact that- Lhe park's developed over the last 10 oy lz-years and as the standards have been improved, we have required that, Ilhink vou've required it consistentlv on every buirding r can recall.There is a small parapet. I talked to Tom about this yesterday. There is_a small parapet on the front of the buirding but there's nothing on thesides. This site is somewhat lower than surrounding sites and i'm prettysure woufd be visible, r'm reLunctant to recommend that y6u delete therequirement. It is in the ordinance
Emmings: Alright. t^Jhat about theirbecause it wiII interfere with their
Krauss; tJer I , to phi rosophize f or a moment , l.Je 've been edgi ng sror^rry i ntoexpanding our architecturar review of buirdings and what kind of criteriat^re h,ant to eetablish. The adding of windows is something that r know ve lencountered before when you have blank waLls that face public right-of-way -You do run into a probrem when it does hinder Lhe appricant,s use of Lhepropert-y. NoLJ ue didn't have an internal floorplan to know. If we have afierevatiorr of thaL side. t^re are concerned that it's a pretty spare side of Ithe buildins but I guess.
Plannins Commission Meeting
October ?, f997 - Page 3
Enrmings: Cou]d they do something with landscaping thaL would help break it
up if they can't do something with uindows?
Krauss: That's a possible alternative. Sort of Iike McGIynn's approach on
a smal ler .scaIe ,
Emmi ngs: Yeah .
Aanenson: Something to break up the look.
Emmings: Okay, so the goal is
it's windows or landscaping we
somet hi rrg .
anyway to break
don't care E hat
expanse. Whether
Iong as it'sup that
much as
Aanenson: RishL .
Emmings': Okay- As far as his requesL on the park and trail fees, we don't
get i ni:o that here "
K)"auss: Tl'rat 's goi ng Lo be the Purview of the
Emmings: Yeah, okay. Back to comments. Tim.
Erh6rt: !^ihat is the lot split that we're doing
split. Is that Parcel A from B?
Aanerrsorr : The parcel that he's going to build
another piece behind it right in here. Another
f i r'sL por I i c,rr .
ErtrarL: .So thal lot is all one ]ot todav?
Aanenson: Yes .
ErharL: 3., almost 4 acres?
cit)' council.
here? Metes and bounds ]oL
on
1
Ls
3.
2.653
He 's
acres, There's
building on this
Aanensoni Yes.
Erhart: okay I thoughL Ne didn't allow meLes and bounds Iot spliLs in the
city here.
Krauss: oh yeah
descr ibed easi ly
Erhart: HoH
a plat?
we do.
we can
f blas told that
have to plat iL -
If it's a very simple division that can be
do that.
come when I had to go get a mortgage for my house I had to do
Krauss: Your property pr obably
verbal descripLion. You've got
tJe have sorre propertids though.
metes and bounds. tlas it
some odd acres. I don't k
couldn't be
what , a 1OO
a
now .
ErharL:
why you
we don 't
Canre up
do metes and bounds in the citv. That's
here before Lhe Planning Commission.
Planning Commission Meeting
October 2, f99f - Page 4
Emming.: You were Iied to by staff.
Krauss: To be honest we don't do it very often. In fact usually in I
Chanhassen I can unilaterally approve chipping off chunks .of a residentiallot and merging it with the adjoining property. As long as you,re not 'lcreating a new parcel , you know if you're shifting 10 feet to your neighbor I
and you're noL creating a variance, I can authorize that.
Erhart: Do you know if our building has rooftop screening?
WE
new
Erhart; But that's what ue,re making people dothat- - I think our building has a big flat waIIproperly lanclscaped it doesn,t look so bad. Souould be, Iooking at the Iandscaping plan here,goi rrg to 9o back and ]ook at that some more?
Krauss: f don't know.f'm preti-y sure we made
Krauss: I f
I ittle bit-
pretty certain,
do it on their have somebody herebuilding.
I'M
PMT
fr om PMT -
Aa nenron: It's adequale.
Erhart: It breaks up the bra]I?
Ljhat happened to the Rome buildins?
Roman was unable to secure tenants for
and we have to stick r,rithlike this too and if it's .1
I would say the choiceis that adequate or are you
iL and he never got it
that's your option, we,d probably ask for it to be refined a
Erhart:
Krau.js:
bui It .
Erlrart: f: there an),thing, the entrance on thaL one. There was aenlrarr(:? on that one uJasn't there that Ne approved.
Krauss: If you recall his original site plan, he had two buildiproposed. One initial one and one future one. There uJas a curbsouth on Park Road. In fact he originally had two curb iui= o,one on the corner and we recommended that that be deleted and ith,as.
Erhart: Okay, NcIl there,s no parking onAnother mail company in our business park.this side so thaL doesn,t.
uJe st
ngs
cut to thrthe south.ultimately-
E]lson: They're clean. They don't make a ]ot of noise.
conrad: The rooftop, r think we need the screening unl.ess the appricantcan trrove to staff that it's not obtrusive rike it's neighbor. l,jindows,don't need more windows but we do need something to breal up thae wall-That's absorutelv critical so if the applicant doesn't need windours forwork, Lhen randscaping to break that wall up. Guaranteed. Those are myonLy two comments.
tht-
Emmi ngs:: Annette
Planning Commission Meet i ng
October 2, 7991 - Page 5
EIlson:Not, lr i rrg ne u.r.
Eirtart .
I agree with everybody so far "
Emm i rrgs :
Batzli: On the
for sem i s?
right hand turn out onto Park Place, is that a steeP turn
I
90rn9 to be revised -Tom Ryan: Yes it is. It's
Aanenson: I don't think i! meets the radius requirements
revised. There was a mention of the radius so that needs
the reporL.
to
that wilI be
be required in
tr ash ,
Do you
Erhart: Th,:
sta ff 's -
BatzIi: Is
BaLzli;
Kr auss :
it one of the conditions?
applicant should supply a revised Parking plan consistent with
IE tharL the parking Plan Provisions?
Fnrr.:rr;"rtr: \'eeh-
part of
I thi nk
is " It's
it's mentioned urhat the radius needs Lo be.
Oka>'. As
saici thatith sonet-hi
-it spoken of in lhe engineer ns rePort.
BatzIi:
T hey 'veagree w
Krausprovi
t har t
com fo
Batzli:
two, is
they'reto have
long as everybody catches that- The exter ior
they're not going to have any external trash.
rrg l i ke that? t^lhat do they do on trash day?
Kraus:: That's fine wiLh us.
EIIson; They lift up a garage door -
de
rt
Irr Lhe past though we did ask Tom for, or for the apPl.icant to
a Ietter on Lhis. In Lhe past b,e've had People make ascertains
ere r,lould be no trash and Lhen Io and behold there is - t^le're
able tha+, if we have a Ietter of understanding that the trash is to
Two questions though. Shou1d it be a condition of aPProval and
it something that the fire insPector should be considering Lhat
going to be storing addiLionaL trash inside? Since they're going
a IoL of paper in there Lo start urith.
bs sl6rrqrd inside and that will be in lhe fi]e, then if we do find a Problem
Iatcr on, we have the ability to 9o back and enforce the aPProval '
Krauss: tJeII you raise a good Point. NotJ the fire marshall
thc building permits and stamPs off on them. If there is a
area to be labeled on the building print, he'I.L come across
may be approPriate to put a condition in there that the fire
approve the internal slorage just so everybody, if we don't
kind of thins that might be overlooked.
Batzli: okay. Previously did we do a, when we
89-9 for Lhe Rome Buildins, did we do some sorL
was that orr the enLire parcel?
reviews alI
trash stor age
that. Now it
marshal I
this is the
approved the o1d site PIan,
of subdivision for thaL or
PIanni ng Commission l,leeting
Octc,ber 2, 7997 - Page 6
Krauss:
Batzli:
IL was p latted
It uras platted
Krauss: I don't know if we metes and bounds it then.it as a subdivision but I think we ultimately did it
but he never filed it.
and not filed. Okay.
I
the
k now
same
we PubI ished
uiay _
Batzli: Okay. That's aII I have.
Emmings: okay. r don't have anything additional . r think we need anothercondition that would state that the appricant shal. I provide prans ioi --
windows on the east and west side. A plan for additional windows on lhe i
east- or west side or additional landscaping to help break up the faca,Je.To t,e submitted to the staff for their approval
Batzli: ThaL reminds me. Isthe elevation that they uere
bloc k .
that, didn't they say something in here ingoing to put a different kind of brick or
Emmi ngs: That's in here.
Batz]i: fs t:'hat one of the conditions?
Krauss: Yes.
Aanenson; t^lhich one?
Batzl i : The glazed block .
Emmings: Is that in the conditions?
Batz] i : No.
Aanenson: Do you want to just add it as part of 1?
EIIson: t e don'L have the window in here either.
Conrad: Yeah, the raindou wasn,t there either.
Emmings: Okay, so we,ve got to have that. That should be added also.
Tom Ryan: Can f speak again?
Emmings: Sure _
-Tom Rvan: r'd like to address two things. Both the grazed .block and onceagain the rooftop equipment. t^re'rI take the rooftop Jquipment first. r amnot-awareofanotherbui].dinginthiscommunitythaLhas3andstonrooftop units that are screened wiLh materiars that are compatibre withmasonrv. r've had two buildinss approved in this town i.n the rast year.Neither one of which have screened rooftop equipment. These are 42 inchhish units- on the east side of the buirding ve sot a re inc.h ;in;""" r-1parapet u,a1l. t^lhy are we building $2,OOO.OO screens around them?
Pl anni r,3 Commission MeeLing
October ?, l99I - Page 7
Emmings: Just Lo understand your point of view and to end the argument,
we've got a requirement in our ordinances thaL requires that rooftoP
equipment L,e screened. I guess if you can talk sLaff, what we're saving is
we're going Lo enforce that. If you can talk staff out of it between now
and City Council, more Power to you-
Krauss: If I can answer that a IitLIe bit. One building that I know that
we workecj r.rith Tom is the Dexter Magnetic building which is up high and set
off in the trees and Lhey used low profile units and you couldn't see it
from off site. Also the terminology, materials comPatible with the
building, we urou).d probably consider accePting metal panels- t'le Hould
probaL,ly consider accepting dry,I mean there's a lot of ulays of addressing
that. t^Je certainly know we don't want wood slats but aPar! from that,
arrythitr!) tlri i .,-r ,-jtrr.,l,lr ,,,,,i f itr, in urith t.hr. clesigrr of the building wr'ri trr
Ir t Ir, f1. . i,'
'l , l') : ok;ry. t et 's take Lhe glazed bLock. I guess
who dc.,igned l-his building who was a graduate of Harvard
S,chool He dicln't desigrr the building with glazed block
feel th;t glazed block is warranted on this band. t^lhy?
me r have to have elazed block on this building? I don'
goes wit-h tl'e color scheme that we're going to Pick out.
gIazed block band would enhance
't even necessarily a cost
I have an archi tect
Architecture
and he doesn 't
How can you LeIl
t even knor,r lhat it
the
Emrrri ngs: Do you Nant to comment
but maybe you can bring us uP to
on that? I know you didn't 90 Lo Harvard
Krauss: I only uent to Syracuse. They were kicked out of the Ivy League.
Tom Ryan: I mean I don't know that
appearance of this building and i!
consideraLion.
a
isn
Krauss: If I could address why we did it. Paint doesn't lasL. It becomes
a rrainLenance issue. The colors change. It's iust not a durable material.
In fact in some place in the ordinance f know we discussed at one lime ure
wiII not accept painted highlights on bu j. Idings. Now this is not an
unaclorned block- It meets the criteria for building materials and I granL
you that r,r c probably need to do some better definition in our ordinance but
our ordinance does give us architeclural reviebr. That doesn'L mean just
look at iL and say okay, it's a building. It means that you have some
ability to influence it and I would not recommend going with a Painted
str ipe . It's just not durable .
Tom Ryan: 12 years ago I !4as making brown buildings. Every building that
was built was brown. This year you don't find anybody t^lho dants'Lo build a
L,roun builclins. Everybody wants to build a gray building. Times change.
Tastei change. t.te urould have a dated building with a 1990 color on it 10
years f rom nor.t. If you allow r.rhen the paint f ades and we have to rePaint
Lh" O,.,itding, maybe we Paint it a different color. Y:.r don't Pair'+- glazed
block.
Planning Comnrission Meeti ng
October 2, 799L - Page I
Erhart: f aglee with the argumentacceptable way to do a trim. Maybesomething. Are there other paintedtalking about painting on concreteI know but are these painted or areblock?
thaL painting a stripe is not anit's not gLaze. Haybe it's metil or -trim in the industrial park? Are you i
blocks? Is t.hat whaL you're proposing?
these colors actually put into the
Emnri ngs: Okay, thank you. Anybody want to comment on the glazed blocks? -'l
Tom Ryan: Pai nted.
Erhart: Is lhat hoH
rt's
t hey
a pai nted building.
make it? Concrete bl.ock exterior.
are, There are painted buildings. Although I docan p-ic k and choose your examples . you knot^t ulhenpark that's been built over a decade, you can do
Krausa: S,ure there
t lt; t , ysu k rror.r you
lt.r... a)rt i rrdustr iaI
an)/Lhin3 -
know-
you
Erhart: our park. t^Je've got a Lot of conrete. painted brock buildings.
Kraus=; There are. r'm pretty sure there are buL r know Lhe RobertsAutomatic builclins, which was approved by you about a year ago, year and ahalf ago, originally came in with some painted hishlights and werccomr,end{.d that, at that time the City was not so as attuned toarchitectur"rl stuff and we goL our point across that we didn't think iLwas, I nrean it was a functional building but it wasn,t too hot, The citycouncir, in fact Ursula Dimrer came dourn very strongly on this buildingdoes rrot neet their image of what this city should be'and they made them eback and thev added r think metal detailing to the building. Hetalhislrlights,.
Erhart i l:cjt.l
i, r -r
t fr( n 1l' .'
t hey do that? They
whoJ.e bui Ldi ng? OrLhe
built the conrete block and then theyare the blocks that color when you put
Tom Ryan: No. you paint concrete block buitdingstwo buildings here approved in the last year whiihpai nted decorative block buildings.
and
are
once
both
aga i n f harre
two toned,
Erhart: Where are they?
Tom Ryan: Dexter Magnetic...and rndustrial rnformation controls.
Krauss: tlelI IIC is an old building and thatb,uilding but Dexter does have painted trim.up that way, you know 2O/2e hindsisht, I hadbuilding was approved that way and we didn'ttime.
doubts about it but thean issue of it aL that
was
And
some
ma ke
an addition to an oldto be honest , r^rhen i t
Erhert: The IIC
Tom Rya rr; l.1r-.r it
Erhart: Nha t js
builclj ns is what, 1O
Heatins right on the
the feeling on that?
years old? No. Not
highway. That's 2-3
guite. 8? 5?
years oId.
F lanning Commission Meeti ng
October ?, 1997 - Page 9
Emming::;: tlell you know this is one of those issues where I don't have any
eJay to judge. I don't know anything about painting concrete block and how
long it lasts and I don't know anything about comParative costs between
doing t,hat and having glazed block. Glazed block I take it the color is
more perrnanent. Sornehour it's made right in there. The color's righl in
there. IL sounds like a reasonable Lhing to do but I don't really have anv
t^Jay to evaluate it. As far as f'm concerned, I'm going to go with the
st-af f .
eatzli: But see I agree with lhe rat.ionale that whv staff wanls it. I
mean some sort of building accent. Breaking up that side with windows. r
think their goa] is wha! we're looking at and whether they do it with paint
or something else, I think that's something that thev have to Eork out
because as Steve said, I can't judge. I don't know t'lhaL the cost
different-ial is in doing the two. I don't know what - You ma) -:hieve the
same thirrg with sonrelhing else.
Ellson: tJcLI the concern is something like Ursula's that it's good to pass
it alorrg aftyw.\y. I agree r^rith her that I don't Nant us to be just Lhe run
of the mill painted stuff. People who occuPy those things change over and
Lhe first one nright be real good abou! keeping thaL landscaping for examPle
and the next one nright now and some might Paint it and some mighl not, I
think that's t^rhy tle had talked about having some sort of a trial and I
don,t knou thaL it worked the greatest buL trying to get some sort of an
arch.i.tectural upgrade tahen it comes inLo Chanhassen. t^le don't necessarily
uant the Hardec's to be what it always is. Because we're chanhassen we
want it to be better than everywhere else because we want it to ]crok and
reflcct betLer than the averagc and I think that's the idea behind being
better tharr the average painted block and I think we'd serve it betLer too
so I Iike the idea but I don't believe it has !o be the material of choice
righl rrow but jusl something that's agreed to. Maybe thal should be
Council's decision.
Emmings: fs there a motion?
Bi-rtzli: 1 move that the Planning Commission recommends aPProval
PIan Review *91-6 as shown on the site plan daLed SePtember 16th,
though mine wasn't dated. t^las there a date on this?
of Site
eve n
Aanenson: It should be SePtember 16th-
Batz]i: Okay. UelI that were dated and that we're looking at tonight
sr.rLr ject to the following condiLions. Conditions l Lhru 10 as set forth in
Lhe staff report. condition 1 woule be amended so there r^rould be a comma
at the end of the uord building at the end of the Paragraph and add the
phrase, alternatively the applicant may submit planq for int-ernaL trash
storage to city staff for approval, in urhich event no exterior trash
storage sh:;l] be allor,red, A new condition 11. The applicant shall include
windows and glazed block as seL forLh in the sLaff rePort or shall provide
alLei-rratives acceptable to city staff such as landscaPing and other
hui Idi ng accents respectivelY.
Erhart : I 'Il second it.
Planning Commission Meet i ng
October ?, 7997 - Page 10
Emm i ngs :discussion?Anv
Yeah.
l,le I I
!.Jher e you t i ed Lhe Lwo together .
I didn'L mean to.
Conrad: You tied landscaping and architecture together.
BatzIi: t^lelI they were in the same condition.
Conracl :
Erhart: yeah, that staff has to approve.
conrad: Do vou berieve that the landscaping on the west should be Lhe samelas on the east? The east is where you've got the exposure- The e,,est. I,mnot sul'e that we care about the west. That,s where another buildino oo"=, "1
rt fac:es a neighbor. The east faces an exLerior road. The motion jr=t -
|said additional landscapi.ng period. so it,s back in staff ,s J.ap anJ r just
want-€.J to l'i nor^r if ure uant to provide some direction on that. rf we feei -lcomfol Lablr . I
kind of happen is they'd 1il would see it because Iwe should see what they,re's totally settled on thisnoh,,. They need revised ''1
Batzlj: f Nas assunri.ng Lhat acLually what wouldtalk betwecn nor{ afld City Council and City Councotherwjsc, in my opirrion it shouLd come back andgoing to do. Because realIy the only thing thatis apparently the, well not even the landscaping
ever;-t- h i n.:: .
conraci: tJel I there eeems to be a lot of things missing in this. Reallv -tare- [^le're noL looking at anything that staff feels comfortable urith, io Ite)) vorr the truth" r surely wourd have rike to have seen the applicant,;i st.rff h,;'" alI the'things, rather than discussing it yesterday or the _cla;' befc,re and agreeing with the engineering department and asain'we'r. - I
Ioc l.i n,; at- st-Lrf f that r^re realIy don'L know what it is. t^le,re trusting tha't-ryorr've r,:or ked i t out r,.,ith st.af f . !^,te don't have the expertise to evaluateth;t anyw.::;. but again we want staff Lo review it to say it,s a sood plan_ ..]
Ll€ agre. arrd then all of a sudden it's in never, never ]and between us andlthe ciLv councir and that makes me real uncomfortable. r don,t like hourth.is, LJas reall>' handled. r realry don't. rt's not a bis deal but asain -it's another plan that things are missing and they shoulJ ue tight. -i[;=,
isimple pLan. Mavbe ure're trying to get this in before the eround freezesbut it bothers me. so again my points and ue,re in discussion item her-e.Hy Points are, J.andscaping on the east is very important. It,s reativ uol."lto have that, r'm surprised you presented that to us to terl you a;;-ir;i;.1To have that an exLerior r^rall facing a yoad? One window and no).andscaping, at least from what r saw- That,s just and gr'e., *e'r" -!bickering about screening a few rooftop deals. -you Xnour, i'aon't-tnor. iThat's a little bit of a bother to me. r don't care how the accent brockis handled. r don't care if it's paint. r think a good ]andlord "r-"-g""4ollncr- will takc cale of Lhe paint. r agree with Lhe appricant that putain( iin;, pei,ticular color dates it so again, the issue is the uuitains-na;-;- ''
rittlc- biL of character. ArI we're asking for is a Iittle bit of characterin this ancl Briarr, if vou think vour motion covers a little uit-or- - 'lcharacte' batulaen and one, r'Ir ride urith you on that. gut isain, r'm ju=r Inot real pleased with what r perceive a very simple plan is missing some
Planning Commission l,leeting
Octc,be r 2, 7997 - Page 11
parte r.rhc.re 1
fi.i r.i 5l'i'ilir
Batzl i :
see t hat
Ni ndous?
Conrad: I think I
appl icarrt- lrea:'d rny
trutl-;.
would have likedbefole you got
to
in
have seen the staff and the applicant in
here on some simple stuff that is easy.
you
Iieu
r ather
of
Torn Ryan: Our differences are very minor. I think it's very minor'.
Conrad: tlell I r,rould have liked to have you both together on the rooftop.
Seenrs .Iike we're talking about a couPle thousand dollars which doesn't seem
Iike a big deal to me but that's an issue.
Batzli: t^,le.I .l Ladd, if they put Lhe uindows in on that side, are vou s!il]?
Conlad: I don't uan! windours. f agree with the aPPlicant. The business
drives the buil.ding. The business doesn't need tlindows. I don't need
windows. That's the ouJner of the businesses' problem but on the exterior,
we dorr ,t NanL just a concrele wall facing. tle don't want a warehouse wall
facilrg r-h,: Btreet and that's what we've got. So again, my concern is
fixing that with landscaping. It can be done real simPly. This is sirnPle
stuff. 5c that-'s my Point under discussion. If everybodv feels tha!
that's cci,ered under Brian's motion, then I'1I vote alorrg with Erian.
r can cerLainly redo, revisit my condition 11. t^louId
t-he as,plicant wilI provide additional IandscaPing in
Emnri ng:: Because I agree with most of what
differenc,es are minor enough so I don't see
Batzl i : Ctka>' , that sounds good.
Conrad: I don't uant iL back,
heard my
we revise
comments and the
it to tell you the
Ladd said except I think the
any reason for i.t to come back.
got my point
comments. I across. Staff
don't cale if
f i:'ririn,]:: I Lhink hre should Ieave the motion the way it is and just adoPt
Lail'-; i ntent sLatement .
Emmi ngs: Alright. Should we
say anything else about this?
no -
call Lhe question? Does anybody else h,ant to
BatzIi moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning commission recommend
approval of site Plan Review *91-5 as shown on the site Plan dated
SepLember 76, !991 subject to the following conditions:
1. Tl-,e appl. icant must provide detailed drawings of material to be used
for sc.r-ee,ni ng rooftop equipment. This material must be conrpatible to
tht buil,jins material. The applicant must also submit a detailed
clrawi rrg for the Iocation of the trash enclosure, screenecl hrith
materials compatible with the building, alternatively the aPplicant
may submit plans for internal trash storage to City staff for
approval , in which event no exterior trash storage shall be allowed.
PIanni n3
Oc L c,be r
Commission Meet i n9
, 7991 - Page 72
3
4
(,
The appllgqnt shall submit a detailedeeparate sign permit is required.
The applicant shall provide a revisedstaff 's recommendation,
drauring of the proposed sign. t
par king plan consistent with
The applicanL wiII prov.ide detaiLedpIan.drawings of Lhe proposed lighting
The applicant shall submit a revised grading and utility planincluding size, type and elevation of storm sewer and obtain andcc,mply with aIl conditions of the t^tatershed District permit.
Provide 8-612 concrete curb and gutter around parking lots anddrivewav- Jncrease parking lot pavement to standards outlined in therePol-t and incorporate city's typical industrial/commercial drivewayd.tail. Add catch basins in driveway access to catch runoff beforeclr:ining into park pLace. FiIl existing ditch along paii prace withstorm sewer extensi ons.
In:+,al I ha;. bales arounC catchinstallec.basins unLiI the bitunrinou: is
t!,. .,: :' ,;: _=(,ir] .:I I ,ji:L,,:.br-,j ar-ea:r.
l;::t;. 1I f i-r h;,drant rrc,r th cf thc d:- ir.,er^ra), oir park F,lace-
1a l.: : i r-, I ; ;: ,-- 1, .1,,,.:- I f .i, 9il_. plan frg9. 9 Rcnc cff i,:e guildirrs
"
11- The applicant sharl include windows and glazed block as set forththe staff report or sharr provide alternitive" i"""Jt.ure to citystaff such as landscaping and other buirding accenis iespectivery-
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
1n
Emmi ngs: Thisthere.
PUBLIC HEAR rNG:
goes to the City Council on October 2gth. you can follow i
Public Present:
Name Add r ESS
Ui I lard Johnson
Paul Krauss presented thec.alled Lhe public hearing
Board of Adjdstments and Appeals
on this item. Chairman Emmings
Chairman,
staff r epor tto order.
with PauL I'm theI was out of town so Iin the darn thing.
t^liI lard Johnson: I guess I was discussing somethingChairman of the Board. I Hasn,t there that nisht.guess I've got a feeling I can find a million holes
ZONING ORDINANCE AHENDMENT CONCERNING ACCESSORY DT.IELLINGS.
Erha}.t-: In Nhat, the ordinance?
Planning Commission Heet i ng
Oct oL'e'r ? , 7997 - Page 13
E:rtzli: t,jlr). a j-e
nou:: : .'
t^Jillarcl Johnsorr : In this proposed. I Nas just telling Paul , I'm going to
come up next year when I ulant to put my motorhome up for the summer for my
kids. He said you can't do it. I've ]ived in the city since 1958. I've
got a motorhome that's 1954 so I qualify in that 10 year bracket. I know
f armers arourrd here t.ha! have. . .particular case is in t^latertobrn. l.ratertobln
townshi!: r,:here thr-';''ve go*- a chicken house made into a home and a grainerv
and I guees there's a number of farmers in the city. I'm iust ]ooking for
loopholes. I had a 40 acre Parcel here last year. I was on Lhe other side
of thc table at the County. In order to qualifv for selling the land, we
had a corrple that wanted Lo buy 5 acres off Lhe proPerty and then the other
35 they'd take contract for Deed. l^lelL we had to dismantle the existing
hoi'r,c r-,n th.re so they could ha.re it and if they had defaulted, welL Lhe
deal feli through but if they had defaulted on 35 acres I r^rould have been
r:ut, of .r lron-rc - 9o I guess there the County said no, you can't do it and
I had 4O acregi . J guess this is a ]ittle different situation bu! I just
fec.l nor,:, ha;' I can bring my motorhome and I can request it. PauI says
it's. kirr':i c,f an iffy situation but I'm just throwing loopholes at you- Or
if ycu oui: a piece of properLy and you've got an old shed sitLing back
th.r'e f c,r 15 years and say gee, I'd like mv kids that are coming from out
of stat.: Lo spend the summer there. I'm totally against it. f don'L konw
hour rnz- comracles f eel on the Board but r uJasn't there Lhat night and
I haverr 't discussed it with them but I'm hearLedlv against- it'
you against it? tJhat's wrong with hav!ng a little bunk
tJiI lar-c! Johrrsc,n: I'tre been on this board a couple of years and' long
y.i.Jr-s. Probably longer than most of you peoPle have been in the city'
I've :e r-.n so m'-rch stuff we've fought through Lhe city. tJe've tried to
a f:,irl) di-ce nt- standard. Maybe ue failed somePlace in our variances
irr gra;nting a variarrce but this is leaving this wide open '
and
keep
but
opcn for what? t^lhat's wrong with it? tlhat's going to hapPen
NillarcJ Johnson: You're going to
a variance to add...and make Lhat
B:t zl1: Nc, because
a rrot he r stoly .
I live in a PUD. I can'L Put anvthing on it but that's
up and ask me a yeaY from now I wanL
a summer home.
peop I e
the
Red
one
and everybc,dy up
resorts that ure nt
come
i nto
lJil larcl Johnson; Yeah, but say you're living in, I hoPe some of you
unders!-and this. You't-e living in not a Planned development- one of
olcler parLs. Ne have trouble with Lake Rilev. [.Je have troub]e with
Cedar Point and trouble at Carver Beach. Some guy's going to develcP
of them lots dor,ln there and say gee f want to keep this old cabin for
melnoI ./- .
Batz]i: I Lhink of my in-laws Place uP in Annandale
down tl-ri.. Iake hes a IiLtIe old cabin from one of the
of bue i rre ..: s, . I dorr 't see anything wrong with iL.
and
out
Planning Commissiorr Heet i ng
October 2, 1997 - Page 14
tlillarci
haven't
Johnson: You haven 'tfoughl the bonditions
been on this Board as .Long as f have
They 'I I haunL you.and yog-
actuallv.
whaL
Batzli: I know they'll. haunt. I,m trying to geL something that'sbad. f hear the horror story but I don't hear the horror - I meanhappens that'e bad? Do people actually, they convert chicken coupsthat's bad and we're t)-ying to avoid that?
tlillard Johrrson: ,,.f carrmultiple dwel I i ngs on it.show you two.farms right now where they,re got
BatzIi: Is therethat urhat's bad?
sonrethins inherentJ.y bad with mult j.pIe dweLlings? Is
El lsc,rr : t^,lel I one of the thi.ngs theywill sta:-t renting it out and things
wer eIike talking about here is likethat .
peopl,-
Pat:Ii; Alrisht, E.c) we've gc,t
lent:, j .:rt,t. I.- that bad? f 'mr€:rrr,al propc rt). c,n your land-
house in Minneapolis that,s bein-find out what's bad about having
a car r i ageLrying to
Krzru:.:: LJt.l1 l..l r . Eat zI i , I thi nkthc point-s tli:i I h,:ve with thiswith il] thc,se things that you're
Ict-.
you're raising a point, whiih is one ofordinance. This ordinance isn,t dealingtalking about. It,s dealing with one
E)-.-l i T
pr-in;ip].:.
EIlsc,rr : tJh),
r easo n;: for say one housethat.
agree - I'm just trying to f ind out r.rhat's r.,,rong with it in
do we
saying
per ]ot? trte have al l ki rids of good
Ratzl i : Eut w6'r'e not askingthi= i:; a.cesscr7-. This is atfrjs wc,uld be fine.
f or a house . tle'l-e not aski ng f or , Ibunk house - f could picture examples
mea n
where
Krauss: Yeah, r could too if alr properties were regulated equitably.
Emmings: This is getting real loose. Willard,chance !o make your comments on this and I thinkanything you'd Iike to add to that?
we want to
we've got
give you a
t hem. Is Lhere
e's about, th".lwere grandfathered in. There uas about 4 or 5 irregar dufrexes andtriplexes, We fought the City uhen ue urere young, the neighbors and I. -lLeL's cut it down - The city didn,t do noLhing about it;;; no* iti" --
igetting better and they're getting better clientere but in the years weused to have drug bunches in there and everything else and-it got to be a _son of a gun to clean it up. r,re had the sheriff up there "ii;;; air;: " '']
r mean there's Lhings that just slip through the cracks that the ciiy naII I
ancl thenr can't control . I don,t know why you peop).e can,t see it- I,vegrol^,n up ut.it h this city. I uas in the township gr-owing up and I suess I'm-Jtrying to get my point across that you,re 9oin9 io ..ri* " proUi"i.--- -
I
Planrri ng Comrnissiorr l'leeting
October 2, 799L - Page 15
Emmings.: Tharrk you. Now we've got public hearing open and Lhere's nobody
else here. Is there a motion to close the public hearing?
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to close the public hearing- All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing uas closed-
Erhart: I think there's tt^to issues here. One is lhe issue of using an
ordinance to br: dirr:r:t-,.:<J at- one individual and I think there's a name for
that calIed spot ordinance. spoL zoning or sPot ordinance. To me that is
ouLrageous lhat ure have spenL city money in creating an ordinance at one
particular individual. I think it's ridiculous and I think it's
outrageous. okay, so that reaLly upseLs me because that's not Hhat we're
al] about here. ThaL's the first time that f can remember in what, I guess
it,s almosL 6 years I've been out here, I've seen us atLempt to do that.
The seconcj issue is, the whole subject of accessory duellings and I, Iike
Briarr, don'L know Lhe merits or dismerits of that. Now if we uant Lo turn
this around, if we're really serious about creating an ordinance to allor^l
people to have accessory dr,lelli ngs, then we should make it a well thought
through ordirrance and ]et's determine what the bad things and the gc,od
things and horror stories are because I could certainly envision, I have a
farm |^]illard anci I can certainly envision. I thought it'd be Pretty neat a
couple t.imes to have a guesL house when family comes over and somePlace
outside the housc. In fact I iust visited one in Eden Prairie this week
whereLheyhadaguesthouse.Idon'tknoHHhattheprob-}.emsareandifwe
want to take that on as an ordinance, then let's take that on as an
ordinarrce hut this to me I think is terrible that we're Iooking at one
Iittle place and then we,re creating around that Particular site.
Emmings: tlithout considering the range of problems.
Erhart: That's right. If we're going to take about
let-'s set our goals and our intentions - Let's do it
don't think we
Br ian feels -
arr ordinance, then
r i ght .
address it.
ule ask him anyway?
Enrm i rrgs: Ladd .
Conr-ad:
Emmi ngs: Okay.
Ellsorr: I don't
Emmings: I thi nk
Emm i rrgs :
I agr ee .
You're saving your comments again.
Conrad:No,no.ILhinkthat'srealvalid-Thisisnotacceptableand,"'a f,"r. to turn that dotln and we couldn't give it a PosiLive ' If we
think there is some meriL Lo allowing a secondary living quarters on a
parcel,thenlthinkweshouldreviewitandgiveitmoremerit.Yeton
Lhe other, more time. The question is that the way ue want to prioritize
staff time. This is the first time I've seen such a request. I don't know
if r^re have a lot of needs Iike that in the city so my gut fe.el is not to
address it.
Annette.
li ke it.
we know
I s hou.I d
Shouldhow
Planning Commission Meeting
October 2, 199! - Page 16
Conrad: Yeah , let's ask him ,
Enrmi ngs: Br ian , how do you f eel abor.jt it?
Batzli; f agree with Tim.
Emmi ngs: Jeff?
Farmakes: 1'd agree with what's been said but the one reservations I'dhave is thaL in issues of Lake homes and how they were developed. Many ofthe Iakes here have had cabins on them or small dwerlings. Much smallerthan would be serlable now and the question comes, if those are habitableand they've been in existence since Uor]d t,tar rr or there abouts wherethings were a little looser out here, you see a lot of property say inHinnetonka that they,re 90 feet wide. Very small type cabin typedurellings. r'd like to address that as a separate issue and get intobreaking out these dwelrings because r think you may get inio a situationwhere we aLlow for that dwelling now for the person't6 develop theirprc,perty in a nrodern way that is sellable or makes sense under the presentrealty type situation. If they're going ro have to tear Lhose type ofstructures doun, they may be suffering a severe financial loss. r can seewhere thi= person uanLs to do this-
Enrnri rrgs: t^rhat Lhese people want to do this property , given theirinclividual history on this properLy seems Iike kind of a reasonable thing -,,!to do. I'nr just kind of Lrying Lo weigh the fairness of this thing. It iseems Iike kind of a reasonable thins for here but on the other f,"na, ideal's a deal and they said we won,L use it and nou, they've got their house_that thev wanted and now thev want to use it so thaL,s real Jnfair.- s"-"n--the fairness side r think it's kind of a wash. r think this is, t"tiirv r
improper wav to accompl.ish what might be a reasonable goal for this famiiyon this propertv- And r agree wi.th Tim. t^,e either ]ook at it in generai.:r think the horror or Lhe danger here is r thought about havins, tixing-io ihave a second structure on my lot- I,ve got a lakeshore lot- I,m 25O feetback from the shore. rt'd be fun to have a rittle summer cabin Lype Lhing -down there to spend some summer nights in. Maybe have p."ptu =iuy-"*r.i in iAnd we're in a singre familv residential area. t^le,re going Lo wind up r,rithpotentia]lv, you know having two houses on every lot and ii ttrat what youwant? You're realIy asking what is our single family residential .r".i- f,lit two? NoH we've got a garage - I,ve got a separate garage.--i;"; ;;i --'lhouse. Now f 've got a separate building tf,"t I can lef grJ.t" stay in or Ican rent out' That's realry a change of character for the single iamily -area r think but those are part of the issues r think Tim's taiking about ito look at in a broader kind of way- r don't like this at arl. you hadsomethi ng else to add t^t i I lard?
l.Jillard Johnson: r r^ras tal.king to the gentreman up on the end there,[^le've got people on Lake Riley coming in with cabins and they want tothem down. I'11 go to bat for them to get a decent home on th"r", I,fought many a times- rn fact we've got one now that can't geL underconstruction with the pollution. The State and the City stopped themr went Lo bat for the guv so he courd build a good value home on thereget rid.f the cabin. r feel comfortable, "ren though r fight lh. = -
Jef f ':
tear
VE
but
and-
Planning Commission Meet i ng
Octot,er 2, 1991 - Page !7
ordinance, city ordinances, to say you're bending them a Iittle bit to get
a decen! home if they do awav with the cabin.
Emrrings: On Minnetonka they're tearing down
bigger, neu,er homes. I ius! don't think the
mar ketplace wiII take care of that stuff.
relatively
financial,
new homes to build
I think the
Farmakes: I think that's something though that's something valid to look
a! when somebody's considering that.
Emmings: And that clearly didn't haPPen here-
Erhart: tJeIl Lhen the real question is, does anybody Hant us to Iook to
making an ordinance for accessory dr,rellings?
Frh;r'l: i.I] nrc,ve that Lhe Plannirrg Commjssion recontmend denial of Lhe
Z6nirrg f-.ri,ii nan,:c: AmendmenL .r]Iowing accessory dwellings as wr itt-en in the
9t aff ttPt't't' -
B:,t:Ir: 5et orr'-
Emmi ng:,: An)' d j sc;us3ion?
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded thaL tlr, f'lanning Commission recommend denial
of Zoning Ordinance Amendment concerning Accessory Structures as written in
the staff rePort - All voted in favor and the motion carried'
Emmi ngs: Now , does anybody t"ranL
accessor )' dwe l l i ngs .
to look at this issue? The issue of
Erhart: Hc)!,J rnany requests have
ofLen clo h,,e get these requests?
first issue is right here. Does someone want Lo make a
r.re had f or these ki nds of thi ngs? Hot"r
Does anybody even as k?
Emmi ngs- :
m5t ion on
Krauss:
them we
No. The
thie?
NeIl, see they're iIlega]
make them come in for some
in C ha rrhasse n
buil.ding.
so when we find out about
Erhart:
Erhart;
Most peotr 1e
How ofte n?
Krauss: tJell no. You know f went through
convinced that in a ciLv of 45,OOO we had
apartments. Now that could be somebody in
somebody in the walkout basement -
whaL? They star! building and then we catch them?
Krausc
this in Minnetonka where we were
hundreds of iIIegaI accessorY
the garage. ft could be
Emmings: !,JeIl nor,.r you can do that here. That's not illegal in chanhassen.
Krauss: Yes it is.
Planning Commission Meet i ng
October 2, !99L - Page 18
Erhart: Mother-in-law apartments are not Iegal ?
long as you don't have aEmm i rrgs :
separate
As long as
entr"ance -
you have the same, as
Krauss: Risht. rt functions as a single. l.le don't want to get involvedin people's riving situations but if you want to have a separate entrance.rf vou r,,,a nt to have, even combined utirities. The main proble, wifr, In...-accessorv dwellings is a coupre things. sometimes they cause neignuorrrooJproblems because you find out, even look in the sunday paper and i,m srrevou'JI find some in vour neighborhood. But these *.r" tuilt aithoutpermits normallv. A lot of them. Host of them. t^,eII it nua i" o.-n...r", iwe wouldn't auLhorize a permit and vou find that you have basementdwelling:, r^rithout egress windows and no smoke alarms and no fire breaks andthing5 Ii ke that . Now t*,iinnetonka is an aging community at this poi;a ;; '']
we had a lot of, and Mi nneapolis urent through this too. ure haJ; i;i;;- I
people who moved in, had their kids and becime empty nesteis but didn'tuant to nrove frofi their homes. one of the Hays you can make a home more -taffordable is to be able to rent ou! a portion oi;.t. For that "na i".-some other reasorrs, public safety mainly, the City adopted standards foracce:isoIv dwelrings and thev regurated things rike the amount of cars that-could b'e parked- The size of the ]ot. The fact that a rtome-"our;;;t ;;-- lbuilt Lhis wav because then it's built as a defacto duplex. But that theh.nr€! l-tscJ to be a f ew- vears old bef ore you could apply ior this and it urasdone a.: a conditional use permit so it was open for pubric r""iJ"l -- --" -''l
Emrrirrgs: Let me ask of Tim or Jeff seem to be maybe interested inat this. Are we only ralking firsr of aII about ih* ;iill;-familyarea as far as accessory structures are concerned or more broadly?
Erhart: Yeah, I would think if we,re going to do this, you go RR.
Krauss: And a separate kitchen_
Emmi ngs: And separate utilities.
Erhart: If there was a frequent desire to do that.
Emmings: tlell we,ve never seen one.
Emnrings: But just rooking at the sing]e famiry for a minute, why wourd yor, I
ldant to spend any time looking at an ordinance that hJourd .r.ro, yo, eitherto construct a duplex or a defacto duplex or two dwellings on the =amu r.ot-in the single family area? t^te have never alLowea thai. -t^tny wouta-;;-";;;want to bring it up?
Iooking
zoning -
Erhart: t^,leII no. That's not Hhat I ,m hearing. Ue _haven,tbecause it's illegal here. It wouldn't come to us.
seen one
Krauss: tle haven,t seen very many situations that they,re not Iesal that Iyou hatrE two free standing buildinss which is the case'heie. t^le know wehave guarantee vou we have dozens and dozens of irregal ones builL into an.,existing house. r
Planning Commission Meet i ng
October 2, 1997 - Page 19
Emminss: To me I don't know if it
single family residential area but
we have to taLk abou!.
's compatible
maybe that's
with the
an issue
notion of the
and that's rrha t
Erhart: My feeling is if we h,ere to do somethins like this, one of the
condiLions I would set is a minimum lot size of 30,OOO feet on a seParate
one. In that case it would not be comPatible in a neighborhood. In a
typical subdision that r^re've seen in the last 10 years and that is a 20 'OOOsquare feet and under house. Bu! Iet's say a guy, and I'm not suggesting
that we do this but I'm just talking here. You know mavbe if a guv had
these 2 L/2 acYe lo!s, maybe 1 acre.
Batzli: Are we inviting trouble?
Farmakes: I saw Lhat if there's an existing structure of a little
slructure Lhat,s already in exisLence and there's something pecuJ.iar
that piece, of ProPerty.' t^le're not talking abouL a chicken cooP here,
r"rouldn't be. Making it habitabLe. t^le're talking about someLhins in
ElIson: Yes. I Lhink so.
Krauss: But it's not habitable.
abou L
or I
existen,:e thaL you basically would have to tear down to utilize the rest
the property. ft may be an issue ulhere that's not desireable.
of
Emmings: You could see making exceptions. t^lhat if somebody had a Piece of
ptop"ity r,lith a real old log cabin that had been there forever and now they
*rnl to come in and build a house but they want to keep the log cabin.
Emmi ngs: That's right
electric,ity or sewer.
You don'L care as long as iL doesn't have
Aanenson i Exactly. It can't become a rental ProPerly or something '
Krauss: Nol/J the situations that Jeff is referring to, the Board has been
ver y flexible in working with people who are trying to use grandfathered in
non-conforming structures on Iake cabins on Lake Riley- In fact we changed
the ordinance for variances because of it. To enable them to build upon
these relics and make them current state-of -t he-ar t homes. But most of
the tinre these are non-conforming as to location and if you are truly going
to buitd a completely separate new home, in this case we have a house
sitting 4 feet off the traveled right-of-r^ray. In other cases you mav have
iL sitains off Lhe beach or off the sLreet or whaLever. There's a reason
why non-corrformiLies are supposed to ultimately, through the Iife cycIe, be
replaced and not perpetualed. I don't know thaL you'd really want to
undermi nd that .
Emmings: Let's do this' Letns go doun
or not you think that we ought to sPend
staff ought to sPend time looking at an
T im?
the line here and teII us whether
time Iooking at an ordindnce or
ordinance on accessory dwellings.
Er hart : No .
Planni n3 Commission Meet i ng
October 2, 7997 - Page 20
ONI DI AME
Emm i ngs: Ladd -
Co rrr ad: No .
Emmi nso: AnneLte
El lson: No way.
Emmi ngs: Br ian.
Batzli: It should go somewhere uay down the list.
Emmi ngs: Okay, Jeff.
Farnrakel: Somewhere down the list,
Emnringe : okay, and d say no. tJhy don't you run that straw vote by theCity Cc,unci] and see if they u,ant us to spend time or if they NanL you tosp:ri,j t-imc on it. Then we,ll go from there.
l,,li L l z, r- cl -ac,hnscn: Some gentleman ment j.on ed 2 !/Z acres.
Erhart: That uras no gentleman. That h,as me,
l^liIl.rrd -'Ic:hnsc,n: - -,when hre were granting variances to the southern partof thr cit:, therc for building...r.,e pushed them to one side of the lot.
Erhart; Nc)L anymc,re. It used to be lhat way.
t'Ji I1;rrd Johnson: ue encouraged them to push to one side of the lot becaussome cli;,, ).()Lr're going to develotr and can't af ford Lo keep the property.WclL thi: guy can decide to put another place behind him anJ then he sellsoff the other and it could perpetuate a number of homes. Just a sma]Idevelopnrant on z r/z acres...so r just thought d throw trrat at voupec)File. I've seen so much. Thank you.
Emmings: Yeah, thank you.
c
RES AL
PauI Krauss presented the staff report
-]E]lson: I have a question. t"lhat's an over story tree? I
Krauss: ft's a deciduous tree with a crown on it.
Ellson: Ohf I thought it was big enough to reach the Lop story of the i
house or something.
-Krauss; Hopefully it will be.
coN I
Erhart: Jusl thror.r Lhcse terms in once in a while to keep us jumping.
Emnri rrgs: Yeah. t^,,hat did we calr Lhose trees in our randscape ordinance?
Planning Commission Heet i ng
October 2, 7997 - Pase 21
Kraus:.' Treea.
Eir-zli: Trees from Catagory A?
Erhart.: canopy trees. It used to be
Emmings: I wondered about thaL.
Krauss: You can call them deciduous.
canopy tI ees "
I thinkare, I we did
mean a
call thembirch Lr ee
dec i-duous .is aAlthoush there are deciduous trees that
deCiduous Lr ee -
Ellson: Those little PoPIars thal are narrow and tall and skinny and stuff
wouldn't, be considered an over story one.
Emming:: ALright. I'd like to ask you, in your Seclion 1 in A and also
again in anothet- place. On page 3 at the bottom there and then in
piragraph D. It says in no instance shall proiect densiLy exceed
compiehensive plan guiclelines. I know the answer to this but I jusL t^rant-
t. see if you do. t^lhat does that incorPorate here? It incorPorales
,;bvioursl). thc comprehensive plan guidelines for density but t{hat are we
sa:'i rrg uhe n u:c saY thaL here?
Krauss For exanrPle Lhe comPrehensive Plan designaLes
designation ae o to 4 units Per acr€ . Maximum 4 units
used 9,OOO square fooL lots, and Iet me see if my math
the-,c,rrt-ical Iy get mc,re homes on a sile than, you could
uniL's p;:'; ecre.
Enrnring: : tri9l-rt-, but you're not going to let them do that is what it's
:..:; in3 h,:rc.
the Iow density
an acre, If you
is 18, you can
have more Lhan 4
Ellson: Is thal the ansb,er you wanted to hear?
KraLrss: Ri ght .
E firni i rr3s ; Yea h .
Ellson: Yolr Passed.
Conrad: f k now .
conrad: I don't know. So the plan says o to 4 units.
Emmi ngs: Is l or,r densitY.
Conracj: f guess m>' problem wilh A, as soon as you say 9,ooo square feet,
that'e you r standard -
Errming:: No- Down to a minimum of'
Ellsi,n: You sa>' ure're just going to get a bunch of 9'OOO's.
Planning Commission Meet i ng
Octobe)- ?, 7997 - Page 2?
Conrad: l^lell and they can't do it but iL says topotenLial . That's our- standard. t^lher-eas there'sstandard is bigger tharr that. So my problem, oursizes in a subdivision or whatever are coming in afeet. That's really whaL we're comfortable with ihistory.
Batz]i; You mean in a regular subdivision?
Conrad: Yea h .
Emmi ngs: I n our subdivision ordi nance .
a developer that's thea difference. Really ou.standard is typical. 1y Iott 17,O00-18,OOO squaren Chanhassen basei on
Conrad: Yeah- 8ut even a pUD. you,r-e coming in at, and I don,t know thatfor sure L;ut nrc,st of them are above the 15,ooo on arr average. my pi"or"r,-=ic thl uay this i: worded- ft says our standard is 9,OOO" It says anrinimunt arrci I understand that but I see no reason, you knou I fee] realcomf or t-able allouling. I feel not real comfortable. I feel comfortableallor,ring us to go down to 9,ooo square foot lot sizes but that is not oursta ndard -
Batzli: tJhereas I would agree with everything you said except f,m notcomlrc,rL..:Lrl e r,,tith 9,OOO.
Cc,n'ad: Yeah, yc,u don,t Iike the 9 because Lhat seems pretLy smal]. See -and as.:ir ir: becomes a mix and r want to give developers the opportunity t,L'ui l'l dor'rrr to that 9,ooo and have some open space buL stirr the way, youkno'"1 vo,-r le;vc in .,ith puD and maybe you say minimum rot size 9,ooo andthat beconae what lhev'1I come in at 1o or 1r., although paul is sayingcompi'r'hensi'.re plarr guidelines say's o to 4 - r guess rm still a rittleunconrfortable r,rith that orre
Ellscrr : r Lhirrk thal Lhing is what's going to make sure ne don,t get toomar''/ o{ thcsc.
Conracl : But C to 4, we're getting what, 1-g units per acre?
Krauss | 1.7 gross.
Emnri ngs: That's gross?
conrad: That's kind of what we rike and r don't see changing that.
Ellson: Un1ess vou know you courd leave that huge area of wooded and pusha little more over here-
Conrad: Right. Sc, 9621 's where I'm still comfortable with in that mixif somebody uralrts to fr.ee up open space aith that gross density, then Icomfortable gc,irrg down to that 9,OOO-
Emnrins-: t^lclL iE that part of what's being incorporaLed bv the sayingcomF.r e he nsi ve plan guidel i nes?
and
Plarrni nc Commission l'leet i ng
Octrl:cr ?, 799t - Page 23
Krauss: tlell it is but I don't think it's achieving whal Ladd wants it to
achi:,.,e. The comprehensive plan theoretically allows up to 4 units an
ac.re - Nhat Ladd is saying is right. Our average single familv Project is
L.7, tJe're siving them additional latitude here to increase densitv.
That's true. It could, On the othei hand, the Penalty or what vou need to
do to achieve it increases with the increase in density in terms of the
amounl of open space you have lo reserve and our expectations of uhat kind
of a project we're going to get out of it. PUD's also incorPorate slightlv
greater setbacks around the perimeter of the PUD to help buffer it from
adjoi ni ng proPerties
conrad: t"lell I don'L understand that PauI . I guess I don't mind where
We're going but I don,t knour how Ue're going to get there with this. so
the penalti for being in a PUD, and you come in with the 15,ooo square foot
Iot size, you've got Lo dedicate 1,500 feet to oPen space ' So in other
words, if Lhjs is the same as having a 16,500 square foot lot, which we
already have bigger Iot sizes in our PUD's and subdivisions already. 5o
there's not much of a, what rue're doing, instead of having a 15,5oo square
foot lot. coming in, we're going to say no. 15,OOO over here and then let's
start a little kitty over here of 1,5OO.
Emmi ngs: t^Jhere'd you get the 1 ,5Oo?
conrad: 1o"" of 15 , Ooo
Emmi ng=: That-'s 15,OOO
square feet -
though, That's not lhe 9,OOo.
Erl-rart: R jght . Birt that's mv quesLion Loo-
Conra."J: 1 ,5oO. 1Oe:, of 15,OOO is 1,5OO.
Erhart: But ask the same question of lhe
it's 9,OOO square feet average, why isn't
a,,ooo feet set aside for oPen sPace?
bottom one. Nhy isn't it, if
for every Iot, whv isn't there
Erhart: J mearr that's the big discrePancv. l'Jhy isn't it
be 6,ooo? ActuaI]v it's not Lhe 15,Ooo. It's the botLom
isn't it 4OZ? So if you take, vou've go! a 15,OOO square
Conrad: Yeah, thal's where.
Conrad: See that rationale u.torks for me.
Krauss: You want to carry the same ratio throughout.
Erhart: No, no,
it's 9,OOo square
square foot lots,
doesn'L 6,OOO so
no. I'm just saying brhat are we trying to accomplish? If
foot average. Isn'L there a goal if we have 15,OOO
The guy Nants to make a 9,OOO square foot lot. Then
to some kind of oPen sPace?
4OZ which raou I d
one" 252 - t^lhy
foot.
idea of clustering but everY
do it, everybodv gets scared.Emmings: Everybody here kind of likes the
lips s6,rrclhing comes in that wilL allow to
Conradi Because we're trying to make sure we knou.
Planning
O c t crl,er
Commission Meeti ng
, f997 - Page ?4
E.I Ison: But don 't f orget , wethinking once it's h,riLten.
Emmi ngs: Becau.e it's scarey.
Conrad: tJell yeah but you've know how this looks.
these things. You'reget to approve
to a half acre, Keep the pUD
use PUD, everybody wiII use pUD.
rret of the open space?
got to
a Iways
conrad: t"rell vou can change it but boy, But you kind of have a sense forwhat this is going to feel Iike or look like once it comes in. And o, th"lother hand, do vou want to encourage developers to do thi.s? That's what iour last PUD ordinance didn't do. rt was not encouraging. you've got togive thern something to get something that tre want, yei. most people here i n -.:tot'rn reallv aren't crazy about smaller Iot sizes. if ro, went out and ipo]led, vou're going Lo find very feur that brant to go down smaller. veryfew. You 'r e talkins.
Batzli: Then raise our minimum lot size
15,OOO and you're set. you want Lhem Lo
Erhart : Ave)'age ne t, 1ot. size,
Kr-auss i
Erhart:
L r na r t :
Excludi ng
i.s thaL
wetland.
Arrd ope rr
des ignated
=pace?
llo .
It includes the open space?
Krauss: Yes. Keep in mindirt E I think. The idea withthe Saddlebrook subdivisionService here today.
what qualifies as open space here is Iistedthe PUD, I mean I went through what was it,today. t^Je had people from Moody's Investors
!o have 252 open space. How can he possibly get toErhart: The
9,OOO squa r e
Eu )' 's got
feet?
Krauss: ft's not the ]ot that has it. It,b the project.
Erhart: f knob, but if you,ve sot 1OOZgot 75t; lesc. If your minimum lot sizeanother 252, you can,t possibly get to
25z of it's open space, you,ve
9,OOO and you've sot to addaverage net lot size of 9,OOO.
everything's going !c) beIoLs and there is no public
some other non-residential -
acres, you can have 49,OOO square
andis
an
Krauss: Yeah you could. you,re assuming thatsplit up as it is in Saddlebrook in individualor private open space in outlot, designations or1ot.
Erhart : No, f m sayi ng you can't get down to 9,OOO.
Kl'auss: Sure you couId.foot lots and ther rest of
Ifit you have 1OO
oPen space -
. Planning Commission Meeting
October 2, 7991- - Page 25
Erhart: But I thought you said that open
acreage, included in the net. That's net
Krauss: And the open space percentage aPPIies
space was included in Lhe
of the open space?
Krauss: No. The open space Percentage, maybe we could cfarify
average net lot size is, after we exclude wetlands, tlhat is the
size they're giving us,
that - The
average Iot
Erhart: oh okay. That's average Iot size. Okay. ALright. I was
thinking that uras the density figure. Okav.
Erhart: So then you have 9,OOO.putting that in open sPace which
Kr;lus5:
thaL ma
t hr': ci:p
the com
think another Nav Lo get at this same
Ladd was leading Lo, bras uhen You go
this thins is the comp Plah' What I
lan cap which, you know the comP Plan
on the entire project area.
just taking 6 'OOo and
issue and I think the one
back into A where He say
'm hearing you say is thatjusl talks about density. I
Cedar Riverside on there
consistenL with that.
densiLies in single famiIY
whv
wou I
aren't ue
d be 4oz?
Krauss: tleII, I aPproached it differently I guess.
Erhart: \'eah, I'm just trying to see uJhat our average lot size is'
Erhart: y.,u're saying to go to a PUD there's going to be an inefficiency.
That inefficiency is that 15%. So in fact what we're getting is 9,ooo
times 1.3 so we're reallv gettirrg 12,ooo. If vou took then all 9,oo0
squsre foct, loLs, you add the 332 which veilds 252 oPen sPace, then your
;,,,;er.."re 1ot s,ize, including the open sPace ' is 12,ooo square feet - That's
Hhat you 've gcL.
Kr-.,-j::-.: That's if you , so ycu're goi.ng back and you're aggregating the
en*- i:'r:- et,;.;?
I
Ybe
on
FP
mean if you have a 1Oo acre tract, you can build
ancl sti]l ha,,,e the same density. Density that's
Ha),be you want to look at lowering the allowable
residcntial FUtt's.
Erhart: No, but do you understand what f came up with? Brian?
Erhart: I 'mfeet. and have
square feet,
thaL's 252 of
Corrrad
Batzli: Nc
Er-hart
Cc,nrad:
just trying to rational ize Lhe 252 - ff vou take 9,OOO square
a whole develoPment and your average lot size was 9'ooo
you'd be required to seL aside 252 of the good space. Not'r
the r^lhole develoPment though isn't it?
!'ic: .
It-'s 25",. of the net .
Of the average lot size-
N,:. ?5e" of the whole develoPment -Enrm i n3': :
Planni ng Commission Meet i ng
October 2, 799! - Page 2e'
Erhart: Of the
Kraus.: Of the
whole or net? Net of wetlands?
r.rho1e.
It gets very compJ.icated.
the next because one
he gets a few loLs andthe nex! guy may have
out of this thing.
when you we rrt with
Erhart: That ?52 can mean a lot from one parcel toparcel might be 50% wetland yet he has to provide,stiII has to provide 25'4 of Lhe whole parcel where
1OO? developable land and he has to provide 25?.
Emmings: t^lelI wait. rt says wetlands and other water bodi.es protected by 1city .ordinance and permanent easement. rt can also be used to satisfy upto 252 of the standard. 252 of the 2sz if we,re Looking at the 9,ooo linez.,,
Erhart:
Krauss:
Emrtr j n3s :
Kr auss :
Erhart:
Conraci:
and it'
do you
apply a
lhe
9o
Nel I
9o if he doesn 't
He may have to
idc-a is to crank out
I Lhirrk you did in
ure should be winding
additional open space
up with more than the
t he Lu ndgr e n,/La ke Lucy
Yeah but some of that, any ay.
Eut- hc',,J do you admi nister that paul? you know the pUD comess g.rl some 9,OOO. Some 11,OOO. Some 12,OOO, Some 15,OOO andenJ up with an overall project open space amount? you,ve gotper ce rrt age ti.mes each parceJ.,
IN
hou
to
Ellson: No, the average.
Krauss:You come in t^rith 1OO acres.
10,OCC square feet. yoLr oNe
got 33 lots, The average lotacres of open space.
You't,e
con:: i'he
again.
ErharL: I thi rrk maybeideal situaLiorr where
f can
1OO Z of
have that built
reduce lots and
explai n whatthe Iand is
into his lot already whenthen that numbel changes
the
Emmi ngs: No wetlands.
Erhart: Nofoot lots.
Emmi ngs: Only 9,OOO square
Erhart: only 9,ooo.
l<i auss: The ordinance says
frh,?l't: h.i can'L, Tlren howthe average net lot size to
I was trying to get to.developabIe,Ta ke
wetlanCs. The guy just comes in wit.h a bunch of 9,OOO square -
foot I ots?
you can't
can you get
9 , OOO?
Lo the average? How can you get
Planning Comrnission Meeting
Oc,tober 2, 799L - Page 27
Klarrce: I supposed it could be thereoticalLy.
Ef lsc,n: It could be one. You never knou.
Emmings: fL can't because on an acre we can only have, what is the comp
plan going to limit it to?
Krauss: WelI the comp PIan ]imiLs you to 4 so on an acre, that's 36.
Emmings: Thousand out of 45,OOO square feet.
Erhart: You could be a medium density area which allows what ' 6 Per acre?
Emmi ngs: Let's talk about.
Erha)'t: Nou you L,ring up a good Point. Can't you get to the average of
9 , OOO?
l{raus.: l dc:n't knc,w. I dorr'L knouJ that you theoretical}y can-
Erh.rl't: Then why even have this in the table?
EII:on: LJe hacl t.hat thine wiLh the church over here and they wanted Lo Put
somethi ng in Lhere and it uas iust one. It's a possibility '
Erh.rt : t^lhe,r-e does it say you can't get to 9,ooo - t^,hat's the role I 'nr
mi:: i ng here?
Kr a'JSS: A requires that you give us a mix of }ot sizes so even if you come
in r^rilh 9,ooo, theT're going Lo have to come in with something else'
Enrnrings: The/ can'L just come in wj.th 9,OOO'
Ellson: It says right there. There are a mix of lot sizes.
Erhart: tJhi ch line?
EIIs,:n: A. The third line down.
Erhart: (rLay, but we don't reallv define mix so if they came in with one
9 ,5OO th*n ,
Kr auss:
PUD .
But you can throw it out. You can do whatever you want to in a
Erhart: Okay, leL's assume they are al.l 9'OOO 1OOZ
you get is on an average over that lOoZ developable
foot average lot size trhen vou add back in the 25?
qucstion is, does that seem right? That goes back
guess may'be the number where we got that number was
allowed us to go to 12,oOO squaT-e foot minimum Iot
developable. Then what
area a 12 ,OOO square
open space. Then theto our old ordinance. I
the old ordinancesize r ight?
Krauss: I could Jie and saY that...
PIannin.3 Comrnission Meet i ng
October ?, !991 - Page 28
Erhalt: That you figured that all out right?
Krauss: That's a lucky one there.
Erhart: tlell that's a . . .does that seem right Lo us? I don't know.
Emming:, ; That dc,esn't laLk about roads or anyLhing
seem Iike you're accomplishing any one thing to me.that's what's going on here either.
eLse . That doesn'tBut I don't think
Erhart: tle.LL what's going on here is you,re not going to havemaybe you're going to have 11,OOO average but then you're onlyyeild zoe.. So t^rhen you take 11,OOO times 1.25 and your averagenow js 73,750 uherr you add that back in.
9,OOO
goi n9
lot
and
to
size
Krauss: But I think one point we keep overlooking is the one that you -.1
Louched on about Lhe advantages of cluslering. rn a straight subdivision ILhat's aII roped off and fenced off inLo people's backyardS. There,s nopublic gooci. There nas no ability to preserve stands of trees. There's nrrabilitv to presel-ve promontory. This gives you flexibirty to rope orr )z>" Iof the site or whatever ratio it is and do good things with it. And =tiir 'keep Lhe densities relatively Iow.
Carrr a.-.l: But h j gher overal I than what we used to.
Lo use. tJe Lalked about
've been
get themEl ls'rn: An,J that's theit L,e'f ore.carrot tlra t you
Conrad: 90 you dcn't mind Annette,acre, urhich has been our standard.or 3 units per acre?
i. nsLead
You don
of coming int mi nd comi ng
units per
aL 2 1,/? uni,L
at2
in
ElIson:but t-he
have to
EI.lson:
[,le don't
iJell rrumber one r'Ir be able !o see it. Although probably not meide: Lrehind a PUD is they don't teII you f 've met ever.ything. youLake it no matter what we choose which is the problem Nith.-
Conra,j: They're goi ng to and say I meL your sLandards.
ones who decide ifoLher thi ngs .
But at the PUD,
have that choice
come in
we're thein some
Batz]i: But then they,Ilordinan;e and tough Iuck.
we like it or not.
say fine. tle'lt do it under your reguJ.ar
Emmings: Then we say fine.
E.l.Lson: Then we'II
i nst-ea<J k,ut we havethe si-stem or us€i i!
say f ine.a chancein a way
Then we'II get what we uranted possiblyto deny it if we think they're trying to rapewe don't ]ike it. tje get that shot.
Conratl: I tell you Annette. I'Il play the record.orcli nance and say the ordinance allows it and you'reof Lhe ordinance and we,ll say go ahead.
They'Il Iook at thewithi n Lhe guidelines
Plannin: Comrnission Meeting
October 2, 7997 - Page 29
Ellson: But PauI wiII be looking at it and he'II sav, this isn't what ure
want out PUD's. tle tlanted that nice wetland and that nice view. Hhy don't
you clear up that space and do whatever. He'IL see it first and make thaL
recommendation.
Batzli: Let me make a general point
l,Jtr're taI king about very Iof ty, f ine
here as a person r.rho l ives i n a PUD .
goals here.
Conrad: IL doesn't
Batzli: It doesn't
any more credibi I ity .
let me express.
thaL grouP anyway.conrad: You're an
ne i ghbor s
give you
but just
outcast in I've tal ked to your
Emnri ng:I dc,n't even want to sit next Lo hirn -
Erhart: llhat cion't you buy a different ]ot Lhen?
BatzIi: U.II but t-l-rey don't know.
Ellc.c,n: Nhat about the people who say I want a 5 minute front ]awn?
Batzli: L.t me just express, we have very lofty goals her-e and ue Lhink
u,re're, clc,ing public, good but I think if you wandered inLo a PUD and asked
the peoalc in t-he PUD what do you ulant. They'd look at you and say, I uant
L,igger lots so I can do Lhe regular stuff that everybody else in the whole'
pardc,n m/ french, damn city can do on their lot-
Batzli: They clon't know. PeoPIe moving in to these loLs are typically,
and I,1) gros: c)ver generalization and simplificaLion. These lots are
typically cheapcr'. Maybe Lundgren Bros. builds high Priced lots but the
oihet pu.opL(. can corre in here and they build starter homes on some of these
thing:. in a tot_ of cases. They don't know any better. Even somebody
guch as r:ri's.elf r.:hr: probably should have known better didn't know any
bette r'. I didn'L realize what the difference betureen a PUD and a regular
]ot size r.la=. Thev don'! recognize the fact. You know vou're ]ooking at a
9,OOO squar.e foot lot and if that's a corner lot, you',ve got about 2'ooo
square feet to do something on and that includes putting your house and
dr'ir.ier.:ay and everything else on there which leaves barel)z any room on it at
all. And before you siart talking about global good and wonderful oPen
=p..." and everything else, consider that the peoPle thaL move in don't
E,'i rr" u rip if there's. p"ik there because they exPect a park there whether
if,uy,r,,u got a regular IoL size or a small Iot size. They don't care. They
don't urant to hear that urell we've got a park for you' They're going to
say ye.:h, and you gave me Ehis dinky Iot that I can't do anything on and
iou shouid have given me a park anyway. If we keep on saying Chanhassen js
suppo=ed to be good and wonderful , make Lhem Put in normal sized lots anci
get the park in addition. Tha!'s my final and only comment on this. I
ian,L LreI ieve ure'r'e thinking of going down to any 9,OOO square foot lots.
Erhart:
BatzIi:
Do you have 9,OOO square
I don't know hou big theY
foot lots in your PUD Brian?
are.
Planning Comrnission Meeting
Octc,ber 2, 1997 - Page 30
Emmi ngs: Just his.
Batzli: Jus+. mine. I got the corner Iot. I got the corner ]ot and I'mstuck with it. No but seri.ously. I do think that if we do this, and you
kncw sonrething's gc,irrg to happen and r can see it coming down the trackslikc a train just- about to run me over here. But r would like to proposethat at least tre require the developers that are putting these in to teIIpeoplr what the>,'re getting. They have to tell them what the squarefootage of the lot is and uhat lhe setbacks are on the sides of the homes.Give them a sheet. I don't care. rnformed consent. r think we should dottrat much for some of these people.
Er h.l't : LeL
shou I d ne',,erfocl Icts ?
me ask you .
.-rllow 9,OOO
Are you
of 9, OOO
saying we
square
LeL me clarify what you said.square foot lots or an average
Er lra r t- :
I wou I cln 't a I .Iow any .
,lny at al I .
Conr a ci: l..lhat's your What lot gize would you go dourn to?
acre.
lot size is in the city now, there's a
l_ ea3'r 'rl
Llh:teve'rfc,; t h;t .
rrr i ni nrum?
Lhe half
sma I I est
sa id
Lhe
Emmings: Yeah, the:-e'3. a reason.
E:;i: I i : l."ilrrtcver the reason is that we've chosen that .
Erir:,r-t-: Thrc,r.r a ci;rt at a board.
E;t:Ii: Ok3)'. Lhen wc should throw Lhe sanre dar-t at the board for the pUDM)' re.ionrFrr ncl:-rt ic:r i:, , i1 you want control over deveLopments, you increasethc minimtrm lot size and you put the minimum on thaL you wo;rd otherr,risehai,e e>:pected as the mininrum in the pUD. Don't be compromising yourstandards to geL a IitLIe bit of clustering and a park that you should havgot.ten anyNay. That irrilates me.
Emmings: ff we did what Briansubdivision standards of 15 , OOO
Krauss: You just did.
Emmings: Right. That ,s right.kind of likins this until Brian.
and raised this !o
would we ever see
ls Pr oPos r ngsquare feet,our
A PUD?
Lurrdgrerr Bros. NelI maybe Brian,s. I ^u,-
f er,,r c,:Erl-,a.t : t,t€ hrlj e sold orr the 9,OOO square f oot lots because we got athenr up there in Ne;_,r Hount-;rin and I don't know. f guess I haven,tpers,, rra) ),- gc'rrc arrd looked at them. you've gclt a few slicles and youtel I rrr-tc h f rom LhaL but sLaf f seemcd to Lhinl they werc okay .
Ell:c,rr : l,rrd I really bel iet,e that the market is going to...
ca rr '+-
Planning Commission Heet i ng
Ctctober 2, 1997 - Page 31
Erh-:rt: Theie's, a big difference between having a
lots ar,J havirl a development where the average IoL
f c,ot i rr n,y e,i nci.
feu 9,OOO
size is
square foot
11,OOO squar e
Emm i ngs :
ten 9,OoC
objecti on
Conrad:
Emm i ngs :
Conra"l:
Emrni r,gs :
Kr6usi::
Corirad:
Btrt i f you say I
square foot IoLs
to that.
've got 1OO acres and f'm going to PUt 10 lots,
and leave lhe rest emptv, I Lake if you have no
Erhart: No, buL that's not what You're sayrng.
Emmings: No, r know it's not but i.t
open space per lot size. I can see,
all talk about it. tle don't reallY
Er hi)-l- : I 'm nol sure if You get 1OO
arrd their y.-,u'!/e got- anather 25 acres
cff tr, t-ir: si it.
Emmings: No, not even a b,,or st case
would rurr afoul of our comPrehensive
i nt €,nt r. hat He have i n having a PUD
Iet's
't the ]ot size. It's the ratio to
aII like clustering. At least u,e
Nhat it is but.we
k ncw
9,OOO square foot IoLs all together
sitting or 50 aci-es sitting sontePlace
Emmings: [.,e,d never approve thaL though. Now you're painting a Picture.
EIIsorr: A HorsL case scenarro.
scenar .L o .plan and
or di nance .
ft can't happen because it
it would run afoul of the
Bat z 1 i : c:1,:; /, so ma ke them aI I 11 ,OOO square f eet .
Corrrad: f 'd sure trY to do.
Erl-,ir-t: I ius'. lrorrder if we shc,uldrr 't delete some of those'
1f1r-re Iika 9 and 10 and maybe even 11 and give us another,
L.icc rrr,: nt line';, 1i+.tle.t'iL here- In other words, yeah you
e,o0o sqLr-'ry l f oot- Iote but don't- gven think about coming in
'-;,0O1 .,'i. ,-:3i , Ma7'1,e, we, s.ct a 12,OOO average ' See what I'
kir,:i ct' inviting a Iot of 9,ooo square foot lots the urav we
I -. -
Emmings: You'd never have an average 9,OOO though'
around to thai. IL can't hapPen - Only if thev came
square foot Jots could you ever have that.
e
in
keep
with
lines dourr
raise our'
can have some
here with a
rn sayi ng? [^le're
have this table
coming back
only 9,Cco
So
1t
uhv
Do
take thal worsL case scenario because we wiII see it- '
Possible.
Okay, Iet's
agr ee?
thaL it's not
s.hou l dn 't hatre
take i!. Let's Lake the 1O,o0O-
is,n't
not, ?
YOU
I agree
Then we
possibIe,
il there.
Planni ns Commission Meeti ns
October 2, 7991 - Page 32
Krauss: But you know I keep going back to the fact that we had anordinance on Lhe books for years that said there's an average lot size of
12,5OO square feet. Nobody used it because.
Conrad: That uas a minimum. Ihat was a minimum lot size.
US
Enrmings: But again, maybe we,re getting too specific here. Shou]dn,t webe saying to people look. Here,s our subdivision ordinance _ Here,s Hhat _vou can do. An option vou've got is the puD ordinance. under the puD iordinance you've can do a whole bunch of things. One of the things ,o, "a,,1do is have ]ots Lhat are smalrer than what is required under thesubdivision ordinance but if you come in under Lhat, expect to have open -.i
space requiremerLs that are going .to 90 up as fast as your rot sizes go Idown anrj don'L really expect to have a smaller or a greater gross deniity.
Batzli; NelI you wouldn't be able to have a }argerof the comp plarr risht?gross density because
Krauss: No it was an average t^rasn't it?
Conrad: No, mi nimum
Emmi ngs: That was a ml nrmum.
Conrad: tJe're LaIking here now. I getversus minimum. f am real comfortableboy that's not the average. That's thecompromise Lhe average.
Krauss:
Emmi ngs :
to go wilet them
BatzIi:
Emm i ngs :
Erhart:
t11son:
Emm i ngs :
thi nss .
reaL concerned uhen we tal k averag,-aallowing some smaller lot sizes but I
average, I really don,t uant to
Emmings: Risht, UelI telL lhem righL up front. Don,t expect to get alarger gross density. And if you,re going Lo come in belou what oursubdivision ordinance arroras for lot sizes, then as th"t g,o"= down, theopen space requirement's going to go up. And don,t put Lhe numbers inthere. Then let them figure out how they,re going to cluster and bringa plan to look at-
So nor.J pu L i n neN cr i Ler i a?
Yeah. Then if they r^rant to go with zero Iot line or if theyth a small lots L,ith detached houses or whatever they want
-fo
figure Lhat out.
want
do,
Lle're going to be arbitrary and capricious.
Yeah but within the pUD I think you can.
It sure helps the process to have some guide).ines "
Yeah, I like paul ,s thing. pLus people come and go reading this.
You ciorr 'L really ]ike it because you want to erase a lot of
Planni ng Commission Meet i ng
octc,ber 2, t99t - Page 33
Er hart:
know why
never t hi
But that's normal.
all like that.
I
I'
nk
just don't think we should think abouL less
nr picking 12. I guess because it's the o]d
about having average ]ot size of less than
than 12.
number.
12,OOO.
I don 'tI wou Id
a couple
di ffer ent
He saw thaL
or di nance
here excluding
the average Lot
Emmings: But Lhis realIy stiffles. These charts
creativity that you might a1]ow somebody to have.
it out?
Lo me kind of stiffle Lhe
!^,lhy not Iet them figure
Conrad: Let,s just remember. I'm sPeaking out of both sides of my mouth
but that 12,5O0 minimum didn't encourage anything in our old PUD ordinance.
It did not moLivate anvbody so I think PauI's putting out a carrot here Lo
say hey, Iet's motivate them to do this. I'm just wanting to make sure
that we motivate them buL we're not giving at.Jay lhe integrity of the
communily. And I can't understand what tle are getting. I guess what I'd
Iike to see is some skeLches of what this does. I'd like to see somebody
Iay out ho$ this would be applied and that doesn't mean we hire a designer
bL,i r n"ed to see what this might look like if somebody came in. And we
f'aven't, you know Tim's point is still on the lable ' It's stiII valid'
He,s saying to go dourn to 9,ooo square feet, we're giving uP 6,ooo square
feet below a standard that t4e've set for a subdivision but we're only
gettins ?,?5O feeL out of it in oPen sPace - Is Lhat the lure? Is that
l,soo ioot, the develoPer has a net gain on that one of 3,50o square feet '
Is that what it takes to geL a PUD? And then the question is have we
euin"a anything wiLh that PUD? t'lhat have we really gotten ' I'm throwing
ihose thins= ort b,rt I guess I stil] have a Lough L.ime visualizing rahat
this formula does for us^ I don't want to kick it out yet. I',d rather
have iL in Lhere because it might be a good guideline but on the other hand
I urant to know uhar it does before r aPProve it. I want to knohl how it'
I've got to see it and feel it and f can't right here'
Krauss: t^iell we can sure take a crack at doing that ' I guess
lhins" have haPPened too- I think we're Lalking about a couple
g.riI-f.. the use of the pUD. I think in the Lundgrerr proposal
fhrr. ,.= a rationale and a benefit Lo coming to using the PUD
for a subdivision urhose lots averaged 31 ,ooo square feet'
Krauss: Yeah. tiell and that's why I threw in the language
Jesignatect wetlands because there was an issue Nith that in
size.
Erharl: Hold i! there. 31 ,oOO square feet included a lot of water '
Erhart; Average real lot size is dinkv.
Iook at subdivisions around Chanhassen,YouKr auss :
they're
Batzli: yeah, I know. That,s what I was saying ear.lier. r don't like it.
Krauss: I think one of the things I've been tossing over is maybe we need
a minimum net buildable standard for aII lots in the city. I mean vou
could have a loo,ooo square foot lot if you can't accommodate a 5,ooo foot
;;;;;. foot building ir'"", it's no good. t"le misht Hant to consider that as
an ordinance amendment in the bigger Picture, I think it's certainly
PIanni ng Commission Heet i ng
October 2, 7991 - Pase 34
warranted. That's why we started giving you Lables and Ne can'L doanything about it except give it to you buL giving you tabres now urhere we-say here, it's a 1A,OOO square foot lot. 5,OOO square foot of it is Iwetlands. In fact it was one of the things you requested in Lundgren butwe're startins to do that in everything. -t
Farmakes: If vou did that though, wouldn't you eriminate about 3 of those I
Iots that they were proposing there?
-"1Krauss: t^le l- l again, dgainst what standards Jeff because the rots that are Iin there are bigger than we normally get and everywhere you go inChanhassen we have wetlands, That,s a very common situation.
Farmakes: But what rim said though, a majoritv of those lots, at leastsome of those lots were wetland. standing water and he made a point whenhe was here arguing Lhat you had to look at the lot aII the way out to irre llot point in the middle of the skunk pond which r didn't understand. tJhy?
KraLrss Because you've done it in every other subdivision in the city.
sa ys
area
Krauss: And not come back, doesn't say it needs variances because you I
can't put a house on it. Now we've tried to do that. l.re've gone throughin the Iast coupre vears and ure've tried to figure out what we think a -lbuildable size is and telI the builder that that's not resitimate-urt-^" Ihave no guidelines to do iL. If it doesn't look right, *J t.y to make themfix it. BuL r think it's appropriate to, f mean ure can do some research irrvou like and come back to you but r think an ordinance amendment and ii -
iwould apply to any lots created in the RSF, RR ay A-2 and pUD f,."" i"-- I
contain a mi.nimum buildable area regardLess of how bj.s they are. rr
Batzl i: 5o Pau lcertain minimum
Farma kes: Most ofuseable space wer e
Krauss: They were
So as far as Lhis,
develop a new one thaL says you need at least awhere you can put some buil.ding on it or something.
them did. There uJere a few that seemedon the bottom end of this List here.
to me a6 far as_
Farmakes: r Lhink you would avoid what a person is designing that out.There would always be 2 or 3lots and that many homes thit you,re goinghave to force just as a matLer of economics that yor,r" Joing to try toi n there on whatever 's ref t over . tlhen r rook at that r-JnJJren, you canalmost pick them out trith looking at it for to minutes as iJ wfricf, oneswere, what thev had Ieft over and what they were going to try to make aout of.
Krauss: Yeah I know what you,re speaking to but every ]ot in there has aIegitimatebuiIdingsiteLotheextentthatweknor,u,,i.ai-i.siti*.t"
buil'ding sites are and we don't have a criteria. r know tnit trre building isites that are on those lots, even though some of them have quiLe extensiJewetlarrds, are bigger than we find on a rot of other rots in reguLar RSFsubdivisions.
to
9e-
Iot-
tighter and will probably require designed homeI mean I have now become a believer that there,s to f it.
some
PIanni ng Commission MeeLi ng
Octcrber 2, 1997 - Page 35
fc,r PLJD's, residential PUD's that don't lower our average lot size at
Erhart: That uJas the guesLion I had. t^,hv, if a guy has a 15'OOO square
foot average, why are Ne making him set aside any oPen space? The only
reason would b,e if, yeah I mean why?
aI I
Conra.l: That's true" A subdivision we're penalizing so
arrcl under however I think r,re should be getting something
where we 're bending our s!andards.
anything 15,oOO
in relurn. That's
Erhart: Yeah, f always thought that
Iet's say, this idealized Iot and if
sets 6, for open sPace and there's no
I ot- of i neff iciency .
Krause.; tJeII arrd we're workirrg with Lundgren
piec::- belwe-en Tli 41 and Galpin. There you're
don't l.,nc,w whaL it is and if we look 'Lo that .
we were Laking 15,OOO square foot
a guy uanLed to make it 9, the citY
inefficiency. Right now Ne've got a
now on that Johngon-De] ache
talking 90 or 1OO acres. I
Bart:li: Lthat'E. the developer's advantage Lo doing lhat rather than they
nright- ha're shct ter stubs?
ConiacJ : Cluster ing u!ilities.
Erhart: clusterinsl . Hake them more creative - You might uant to get rid
of, like up here we let them use less than the standard setbacks. That was
a mrjo, tl,ing for t-hal:. I remember that presentation ' That was a big deal
that he wantecj thosc, houses 20 feet from the stree! ' And so he got !ha!'
Ernnri rrg=: ArroLhGr f lex ibi lit-y -
Emmings: t^lould You do it as a PUD?
Krau.s: Yeah. l.low maybe as a PUD in there, it's big enough that Lundgren
will probably try Lo markel to different prices of homes' Maybe they will
havr- a bunch of 11,OOO square foot lots- Further on where Lhe land gets a
Iittle nicer and more rolling, they may have a bunch of 30,OOO square foot
Iots. And your average ]ot size will probably still come out to be better
ir,"n rs,ooo'. At thaL point you don'L Iook at varying vour standard a! aII-
You maintain your average Lot size.
Emmings: So then You don't get any.
Erhart: So that's why vou're saying at
there's going to be bigser lots lhat's
I understand that -
Batzl i: t{oll I d a}I
development too and
sma I I er honres .
the open sPace may be on the larger sized lot end of the
Lhen you've clustered, for the sake of clustering the
15 we
going
shou.I d stiIl take
to offset smal ler .
10 because
Okay, now
Emnri ngs: Yeah, do we
they'r-e going Lo have
want to do lhat? Should
11 ,ooo square foot lots,
have to have open. If
Lhough they've got a
t hey
eve n
Planning Commission Heet i ng
October 2, 799]. - Page 35
bunch
going
isn't
of 3O,OoO to offset it, bring the average Lo 16 ot L7.to have those 11's, do you want Lo have to create open
owned by anot her lot-
If they 're
space t hat
Krauss t^lell we said they were will.ing to accept, Keepopen space, the way this ordinance is structured,f mean if the city h,ants a park, a percentage ofcualify.
in mi nd when we'rethat 's not soccer -that area can be
sayi ngfields,
used to
Emmings: l,.Jhat are we talking about when Ne say open space?
Krauss: You may be talkins about.
Emmings: PIaces Nhere there aren,t houses.
could be portions of somebody's lot. On the Lundqren -Council in 2 weeks, the tree preservation areas *h"r" icutting and we,re going to take a conservaLionon h,hat wiII be private property but it,s Crotected b5I^le said that qualifies.
Emmings: Yeah, and you're going to have that same opportunity on the newone because that alI buLts up against a wetland loo on the south side.
Krauss: Yeah but itdeal that 's goin9 toue've said tlrere's no
easement , thaL's al Ia permanenL easemenl_ -
Krauss: I don't know where you
wa!^ks into a Chevy dealer, theyyou knour. Someplace people have
Clear ly in the past.
Emmings: No, but I think paul isto know the size of it.
want to draw the ]ine. I mean somebodydon't expect to walk out with an Oldsmobilflto understand what the Iimitations are. i
Batzli; r just think iL's smalr comfo,L for a person on an 11,ooo. squarefoot lot to know that a quarter of a mire away they preserved a stand oftrees c,n sc,mebc'dy elses private property. Now that person may walk intoLhat knowing futl well urhat Lhev're purchasing. NayLe they do, maybe theydor,'t. Mavbe as a city we don't care. r'd like to take a little bit morepat.ernrl istic att i tude .
Batzli: i^Je're looking at the ordinance and weexpect somebody to come into the ciLy buying apurchasing a PUD. Explain to me all the rulesthe time and effort to explain it.
don't undersLand it. Do yot,Iot and say well, I'mand regs - t^lould you have
saying if you're buying a lot you ought
Batzli: f understand that but.
Krauss: Also in the past I think there,s been almost total, I mean these "Jthings haven't been done. Nobody,s done a residenti,al pUD f,.i" ii"S-r;;;..1tJe still have one building built out but you have a ,r"ry "orpr.hensivePUD ordinance nou, where a lot of things have to be demonstriied ana filecl -.!with propertv and made clear and ue're goins the extra .t"p ii[u-i; i;;-- |Lundgren thi.ng where we're requiring monumentation of the tretland selbackareas and things like LhaL. [^]e can do a lot that puts the owner on notice _Not^r if the owner chooses not to read anything or not to caL], in", *.-n.". I
Planning Commission Meet i ng
Octc,ber 2, 7997 ' Page 37
a concern, Now I know the
deck. Under the ordi nance
happened.
that you gave us
is wr itten, that
the ]etter on thewouldn't have
}SSUE
now 6s
Brianthis
Batzli: Yeah, f understand thaL. I still have a problem wiLh corner lots,
their ability to be 9,oo0 square feet and then vou're looking at' Iike I
said, you're looking at 2,OOO square feet Potentially of sPace on the lot
other than the setback. I guess I understand buyer beware but after having
Iived in lhe community now of 1OO homes in mv little PUD and talking to
most of them and it's their fault. They don't read the local PaPer. They
don'l care. They don't know. They don't want to know but the minute they
wanL to do someLhing with their ProPerty, Lhen suddenly thev get into it
arrcl the question is, do you trant to ProtecL these peoPl'e or not' Is the
city getting something and is what Lhe city's getting worth raising the
.yr" of a lot of people moving into the community. Maybe Lhey should have
known better but I guarantee you Iess than 12 wiII find out that they're
lit,ing orr a subst.andard Lot that the City things they got a tree Preserved
" qruit"r of a mile away in exchange for their substandard Iot. That's my
poi nt .
Corrrad: Those people are haPPy to move into a 10'OOO square foot lot'
ElIson: l^lho are r,re to tell them?
if they don't ]ike it thev carr alL,avs seII it and move toErhart: I think
a bigger lot.
Ellson: They've got the choice going
Iike they don't have
.Ln.
opLions and I realize iL'sEr har t- : f t',: rrot
i rre,f f i:.icn+-.
Fllsc,n: If sc)mething has to be mar ked off for them or some sort of
notification that a iot of people don't realize they're h,ithin the setback
of the wetland and all these other kinds of things and too many come forth
and say oh, I didn't know. That's whv I filled it aII in' That kind of
thing. They'lI ignore lhat anyway even Lhough they'II stiII say they never
heari about it. if tney want to do it, they're going to do it. And vou
har.,in9 easements on those Protected things is mightly Strong now versus a
convenant in the pasL r^rhich were tlorthless in proLecting '
Krauss: That happens on 2 acre ]ots too. I think you're going to have to
answer the fundamental question, because I'm no! sure' Do you want ' f mean
I think we've demonstrated that the PUD has some validitv bevond allowing
undersized IoLs. Now you may ueII uant to allotl some freedome for
undersized lots instead of minimum but require that the average is
ionsistent with other city neighborhoods. Is there a desire to grant
flexibility below the 15,ooo square foot average or should Ne structure
this so Lhat doesn". haPPen?
conrad: l,Jhen you say average, the 15,OOO square foot aVerage - That's the
minimum so f'm not sure Nhat you're saying PauI -
Planning Commission Meet i ng
October ?, 7997 - Page 38
Krauss: tlhat I'm saying is you could change this around so that you
have a 9,OOO or a 1O,OOO or 11,OOO. Uhatever you b,ant to set as the
mi nimurn }or- ar6a that you allow in a pUD " That r^rilI give a developerflexibility to put in some smaller .Lots where those are appropriate.require that the average lot size meet or exceed 15,OOO square feet.
mi ght
But
ErharL: Thaa's our old ordinance.
Krauss: Yeah and before we had the Lundgren thi.ng come down, r Nasn't toosure that anybody, nobody had used the old ordinance. Nor., the oldordinance was a bad deal for everybody. It was a bad deal for the buyers.rt was a baci dear for the city and the city never got r^,hat the developerspromised which nas more affordable housing. There were no guideli.nes andno standards. But in an area like this Johnson-Delache pieJe theflexibility that the pUD may give a developer to take liie the opencornfield area and do the smaller lots and preserve the larjer woodedhilltc,ps for the ).arger lots and average it out, maybe tr,at;= a worthwhileexchange. I don'L knor.r.
Conr ad:Let me
l^lhich
interrupt you. I know you,ve got a thoughL maybe.
Ba:,21i :15 new -
conraci : Eut it,'s. reaL easy to agree with Tim,s comment. r can undersa"nalr,.rha t- Tin'r i: seying because it makes real good mathematical. sense - rf weha,r :, 1:.,O0o square foot sulrdivision minirrr, now we;iu g"ing to breakthel ruic for a PUD- You can go underneath Lhat down to i nrinimurn lot siztcrf !rh. t i-.., .\/ey' 6grer-, - ["JhaLerrer Brian fee]s comforlable wiLh buL then youLa[:r,' the dif fer enc,-- between the 15,ooo minimum and whai they ;ust went dorlntc: arrel you plop that into open space.
Emmin3:: l.lD t orr somebody eIse,s Iol_.
Conrad: No. See.rll of a sudden, now I've solved my density. My concernabour- inlr (:died density for the overall deal because ve aitocated thats.imc 15,04o. rt's either going to be there in a subdivision or a puD but -I',,'c ai loL.Le d t-h.-. der.,. 16po1 to go do6n and cluster =or" utiiities and savesome nrorrey L,u+- the dif ference is rve Laken urhat he,s saved Iandwise andf 'vc put it, in our little bank over to the side called oprn "o".". Nor^rthat one l can visualize and f eer. comfortable with. But r ";;;;:'r "iirr -ha're a tough time with our formura that we've got because r;;n;i;"ii^"Nhat's goins to happen. r don't know if it's, r just Jon,i rnor. NowPaur's cornmenl could be, hey that's not going to motivate the deveJ.oper to-do it arrd that ,s a valid. That r.rould be a real valid -
Erhart: Yeah, because I think the incenLive is stillto put some 9,OOO square foot lots.there because he get*
Conrad: See I would too but I don,t knour that.
Erhart; I Lhink it's very hard to13,OOO. I think it's more likely15,OOO, even despite the facL Lhat
get the average doNn below 14,OOo oryou're going to see the averages above
nray. have some 9,s and 12,s in there-/ou
Planni ng Commission f4eet i ng
Oct c,L,€ir ? , 1991 - trage 39
Conrad: See the word average bothers
and going belour a minimum. [,Je're noL
Erhart: So then anytime you have a
space. Is that t^lhat You're saying?
El]son: No. I Nant a lot more than
me. Again I'm
Lalking about ,
taI ki ng about minimum
weII.
Emmings: Tha,t is a problem because if your average gets over 15,ooo, nobr
there's no requirement to seL aside any oPen space.
Erhart; t^Je1l that's the question I've got. Not, hang
way I read this. f read this as any time you go in a
1oz open space period. Is that what I'm reading?
on -
PUD
That's not theyou've got to puL
Krauss: l^lell, we jusL changed that Lo 15,ooo square feet or above.
Erhart: I mean if
we require them to
a guy comes in at
set aside 1OZ?
have to put aside 1OZ oPen
what u,e t{a nt?
or 17,Ooo square foot, should
PUD you
Is that
that.
16,OOO
Kralrss: l^Jlrat are you requil ing of the individual who does a straight
subdivisic,n?
EI Icon' You 're getti ng at least -
Krauss: No, unless the city !.JanLs a park there which is the 1O?, thev give
nothi nl .
Erhart: You don't have to have park fees or parks wjth lhe PUD?
Er'!-'art-: l*'l,j y b'e I misunderstand your question. If a guy comes in with a PUD
because he wants Lo have some setbacks, special setbacks for something. Who
krrc,ws urhat but yet his average lot size is 20,ooo square feet, tle're stilI
going tc make lrim Provide 10% oPen sPace? Is thaL what we want?
El Ison: Cracke r- box , cracker box .
Erhart: No, buL they've got Lo Pay a fee.
KraLrss: Yeah, your usual suburban subdivision -
StraighL platting. Unless lhe Park board says
you dc,rr 't hal,e a single foot of oPen sPace '
square i nch of
Straisht subdivision.
Lhey need park sPace there,
Kralls5: I think Lhal'€ the theory lhat Ne're getting to
got to ask yourselves, what if Orrin ThomPson wanLs to do
.ul,qlivig.,ion here and the citv doesn't wan! a Park on the
rrot gi','in, you a square inch.
Eatzli: Gir,'i ng vou Prettv good fees but vou're right, no
oPen sp;lce,
Erhart: Do a 1950's urhat?
here buta 195O
property?
you 've
He 's
PIanni ng Commission Heet i ng
October 2, 1991 - Page 40
Krauss: Rieht.
identir-,al fees -
Ne.Ll so these people are payi.ng fees too. They're paying
Batzli: You know how these problems are solved? tJe just move thelot size in RSF to 2O,OOO square feet. Done deal. Everybody just
when I say that. I don't understand why it's such a sacred cow.
mr nrmum
smirks
Emmings: t^leIl, i*.
Conrad: It costs a
isn'L.
lot of money .
in and
PUD 's .
Batzl i : People wi I1 comethe Nay to get them to do
PUD to bc.
do PUD's then.
But we can't
you want PUD's, that's
decide uhat we want th
If
even e-
Corrrad: This is not easy.
Ellsor:: !15':r : dc ure go f roril here? j
Erhi,rl: J'nr s,tiIl trying to understand why, i.f a guy comes in with an _1a,oo3 fool: aver age. The big question is, rahy migAt he want a pUDi
L
Krau:': : Fr,r t he reasc,n we f ound on the Lundgren proposal is that i f vouLlrrow-",ffo,:tft'<rnLyar-dsand75footrearyardsand5ofootoroor""i-rights-c'f-wa/ at therr , v.ou have a veyv difficult time making a r"eitir"t" 'devclopment orrt of that thing. He got the flexibility.
_,1
Erhar'.: The price yor: pay then for that is a 1oZ of it goes to open =p."" i
f,iIau,: -: Ar,i i n l-ri: case it ,s 402" of open space _
Batzli: llot under the,.new formula.
Kraus.-: I.lo, f haven ,r_ applied the formula. Of the 12 . something acres ofcperr s:paca, I c'f it': uretland. So you would give them 2 acres of that.
Ba 1-:1 i : GcL: acres, yeah
Emrrings: I LeIl you, well. you guys are aLways arguing for specifics inordinances and I,nr always arguing to keep them vague bui al] Lhe problemsare createcl by trying to come up with a formula ,nd t don,t know why urecan't just avoid it. I don,t know why you rrould want to.
Ellson: You're saying spelL the intent out cl.ear enough.
Batzri: BuL if we can't decide on what's fair now, how are ure ever going+-c, l6si.1* the minute a developer walks in un.l.ess you have "t l""rt rn"accept-able )'ange". you wiII be expected to provide within this range forop€n space. LO?6 to 2OZ-
Emming.-. r f cou.l,J gc along with tha+_ .
Batzli : -\'cah, I could 9(, along with t hat .
Planning Commission Meet i ng
OctobEr 2, 1997 - Page 41
Emmi ngs: A sLat eme nt in a range I could live with
wilI be expected to provide
very easi Iy -
betweerr 7O?; and 2Oz openBat-z1i : The det,eL oper
spac". End of iL,
Emmings: Another statement. If you go
greater requirement. To the extent you
expect to have greater requirements for
Emrnings: Because otherwise I don't Nant to
land over here and he's got 1 acre Iots and
little houses down here where Brian lives'
Thos"..people are getting screwed. To me.
comfort - There may be a cerlain market for
those houscs.
Krz,Lrs=: tJs ll. but face it. These peoPle probablv
lot r,rhen thc g.l;., uF' on the hill paid $ao,ooo 'oo '
s;ornethinsl differen! for a difference in Price-
belor.r 15,OOO f eet, expect to have a
have lots below 15,ooo square feet,
oPen sPace.
see, you know he's got Pri.mehe's got a whole bunch of
Those are 10,OOO square feet.
I agree with Brian. It's no
people who want to .Iive in
Krauss: For individual Iots or average density beLow that?
Emrnings: See I tend to 90 to the individual lots-
Conrad: I ndiv idua I Iots.
EmniinS. Yr:-rl'. I dcn't knou. I guess I
J gue r.Ei I cor-rl d be persuaded if there's
nesters who uant .q smlll place and don't
c:rt. c,f a y'ard. l^le have PeoPle starting
Iilr: Lh;n.
Conrad; But they know uhat thev're geLting-
Emmings: They know whaL they're gelting -
Batzli: No they don 't
foot lot. They don't
enlire citv is 15,OOO.
don't find comfort in that but
a market - Maybe lhere are emPty
urant to spend their time taking
ou! who want to get into 6 house
paid $3O,OOO.OO for the II mean you 're getting I
sta nCar d?
and can
Bat.zli: See but most PeoPIe, and I'll say this and you don't have to give
me sympathy but- this is the reason- Most PeoPle move in and they exPect
the community to have minimum slandards. Most PeoPIe don'! understand what
puD is. They don,L understand that what they're getting is below the
minimum cc,mmunity standards in other Parts of the city' They don't'
undersland thai.
. Okay they know thev're getting a 12,OOO square
know that the minimum throughout the rest of the
Batzli: l^lelI lhe question is, why should the city relax the
Emmins:: Nhy do they care?
Emm i ng: :
afford.
To provide that Person with something that he uants
Planning Commission Meet i n9
october 2, 1997 - Page 42
Batzli : I don't bury that thatfo.;t lot-. I dc,n't buy thaL Lhe
t ha t 's jus,t me -
any cheaper than the
necessar i Iy providi ng
house
PUD
Lsis 15,OO0 squ ar e
that but
Emmi ng:: I thi rrkdissatisfieci with
.Lot and f i nd out
square foot lots?
that's Lhe reason the person bought it. I mean they'retheir house because they moved into a 12,OOO square footmost other people in regular subdivisions have 15,OOO
Batzli: No, they are. r.Jell , r don't know how to say this but they move
--rin.. IL's a substandard size rot. rt's not necessariry, and under this ner Isubdivision things, are changed a ]itt1e bit but they still have setbacksand things applied against them and they don,t understand Lhe nuances of -tthe PUD. That's my only point that they're getting a smaller sized lot anr ithey're not necessaril.y gaining any benefits from it and f,m noi-con;;;";J 'necessarily that the city got anything so rm looking at it from a ]oselosa perspe.t-ive. The people that are moving in. f6ey don,t ""a".=i."a
-''l
that thev're gcing to have a strike against ihem the m].nute tn.>.-iry-to-a" I
sonretl-rin3 on the lot. The City's really not gaining anything, My questionis, whc,'s getLing something other than the developei nho had reLaxed the -lstarrdarcl: to do thr: development. Now if you can convince me ttrii ;;';;- |prc,vi.Jri r,s rr different housing market and people are getting cheaper housesanc that's whv we're doins that, then that's a good inough-ration"r" uri-i1clorr 't kri.-L,l thet tha+-'s r..rhy we,re doing it here ionj.ght. i
Emniing:: Now presumably a builderit- There.'s got Lo be a mar ket or
Emmings: You know one Nayputting up, having a bunchones irr another area whichin herr: that they,re going
what are you going to do,yr:tr do it.
t build a house unless he can seIInot 9oin9 to sell the house.
won'
he 's
Batzli: Riglrt, but the question is, who's winning with this ordinance?the Citv r.rinni.gr? Are Lhe people moving i.nto the ciiv ,inning, which is,you' knor,.; when we'r'e looking at it r think we have to ioot< ai it from tr^rop.,ints of view. Is the City getting something like olen sp"ce o, a parkhelping to pres-;erve additional r.retlands other than what our ordinancealread;' d6ss. rt does comfort me at alf that Lundgr.n pi.="ru"d wetlandsthat uerr: already preserved. I mean that just ,".IIy irriiit"o *.. That.yeah, we get to courrt the whoLe tretlands here "u opun "pa"". t^rerl you hato d; that anyway. I don,t give a rip. you know, so t'he City doesn,treally win under that scenario. The people if itis a, and-igain don,t fesvmpaLhv but people moving in r don't think feel they'r^ri.n. -so you,ve gotthe people movins in- Thev're unhappv usuallv with Lhe "ity b"".r=e tiey90 to the city. The city says you can't do anything with your Iot sothe>"re unhappv. The city didn't get anythi.ng. l^Jh; uron? The developer .Hy question is, Iet's build an ordinance. Maie sure we have an ordinancewhere the people moving in win. The City wins and the deveioper gets afair shake and I don't think that's happening under this one.
maybe to avoid this problem of a developer -.tof big IoLs in one area and a bunch of iittte iscares me abouL this. tJould be to put somethingto have to mix their Iots Lo some extent. And .-se! up a formula for that? I don,t even knc,w hor I
I::
or
d
Plarrning Commission Meeting
October 2, \997 - Page 43
Cor:aci : I gc, L,ack to the overall. Just real sirnPLy, I don't have a
prot.l tn. . L{,-r:'s talie a 1OO acre ParceI . Based on today's develoPment
paLte:i-,J c,n a Loo acres. Somebody cou.lcJ probably put in 2OO units on 10O
acre3. I don't have any Problem taking Lhose 2Oo units and putting on half
c,f i:1.r., prctpelly and Ieaving Lhe other half oPen. Taking the minimum lot
size dorLn tc 4 units, you know putLing it uP to 4 units Per acre. That-'s
fine bec,ause what f 've dorre there is we've got oPen sPace and we've kept
Lhe slandard Lhat we've been kind of fLoating along with. 2 units per
a(re, even though comprehensive plan says O to 4, Practicality has dictated
we're coming in around 2-
Enrrlng:: Or 1.7 .
Ccrnraii: Qr 1.7 so lhat's why I want to be able to get-
Erni::ii'9:' I think everybodv here would agree with that -
Conrzi--i. Cut I'm not gure I know how to get there '
Enrrr,.i ir--: P.:r-,1 u.torr 'l-. He flexed his eyebrows.
f:r.,-ja::-: l'.1r,, f S€c...45 minutes ago.
Conrad: t.lc I I w,--'rc missing things-
Emi; i r,;:,,: ELrt r,Lhat 's Lhe dif ference betweerr ahat Ladd's saying and tlhat
1,'11-e '1' ,3 Ja i 13 her-e?
Kr:L!3: i 3,':. aus{-: i^lhat r,:e'r'e doing here wc,u}d a.IIow densities in excess of
u:h.^' r,.- no, m;. 11y erpcr.ience-
Emmi ngs: Doe:s anybody.want that?
EIIsorr: I think I could be won over if I looked a+- it-
Erhert: fri excess of what?
f r, er(ce.:s of the 1 .7. t^jhat we've hist-oricaIIv done wiLh
!rn3. Th.t'E: why I asked right off Lhe bat, it savs in no in:tance
pr-oje ct density exceed comprehensive plan guidelines' I wonder
t'Emm i rr;;
subdi t,
shaIIif wc wcre i ncorporatirrg lhat 1'7 right Lhere-
Kr aus:s : No .
Emrri ng:: N:.11 r wonder if we want to.
Kraur,s: LJrl1 you might -
Corr:-ed: Ttr.: t r.roulcl ma ke me f eeI cc,mf ortable . That one ' and Paul merrtioned
it- l,e f :i ! , .1.Jeragc consistent with oLher subdivisions. ThaL one 3l-stement
givi-= n,: *, 1-,. let/erage to talk to a develoPer and Lhen I can throw
a,,,e r-ythin; el.je out - But that one sLaLem€jnt gives me someLhing to say, hey
r clcrrr't lil,e it because it's not meeting ulhat ule've seen in'the Past in the
overalI dt:ign of r-he subdivision.
Planni ng Commission HeeLing
Octot,r'r ?, 1,991 - Page 44
Emrrin!:: Ancl Lherr could you
get rid of al] that?
throw out this open space table? Cou]dn't you
Conrad:
Emmi n9s :
Conraqj:
could, wel I .
Iike to give
what?
likc to force
Emrrings; Bu! if you,ve got yourclust.r, you're going to wind updensit:" f or the whole project.
them a way to.
the open space .
gross density set. If he wantswj.th open space - You've set the
YOU
I'd
To
rd
to
gross
Conrad: Yeah. It could still end up Lookins Like a pUD. Or like asubdivision. End up looking like a subdivis.ion though.
Emii,i ng=: But- then if it
c,rdir,.:,:-rcc - l,Je dcn't care
ol.ay.
subdivision, he goes u nderhe does because we think we
the subdivision
halre one that'sif
E i l;:-t : You can cluster,foct 1:t.,. O,,,e l-i:r1l densily
You ca rr still cluster and use the 9,OOO equare
I: 1.7
Fc,r t hef rhil1 :
nu mI-,:'.and high
low density is one number, HediumdensiLy is anolher number.
densit>' is arrc,ther
Emr,j rig:: : Right . Here's the framewor L . you,re stuck with -
Erhar t: That would realIy serve tlre same purpose as this.
Er"rn,irrgr:.: )t; wh;t you Hant - Br jng it in and we'll !ake a Look at
BatzIi: But the;. wouldn,t have to necessat-i Iy provide open space,(,oul.l ju.,t make bi99er Iots.
Emmings: But- if they want that approach Brian, why wouldn,t theysubdivision?
Batzli: No, if they could put a couple 9,OOO square foot lots injust ptri: 37,OOO and end up with the right densiLy. They ,""fan,tprovicled any open spac€ Lhat isn't privately owned.
Emmings: Okay, would that bother anybody?
Erhart: That's what you,ve got here too. f mean this opeir spaceon aval ase -
Batzl i : That 's righ.- .
Elhart: So you can do the same thing wi.th this.
it.
T hey
doa
there an<
ha ve
is based
Flanning Commission Heeting
Ctc'- obe:' ? , !991 - Page 45
Batzli: Right. I unclerstand
either. I mean that's whY I'
city loses. The PeoPIe Lhat
37,OOc square foot lots and
t hey didn't want to.
that. Hell I dorr 't like that asPect of thjs
m viewing this as the developer wins. The
move in lose except for the PeoPle on the
they didn't have to move into a PUO anvwav if
Conrad: I don't
EI I son: I don't
perceive iL that way-
either,
Batzli: I know but I'm just, somebody's got to argue against it beiause
ot her !,J i se this uhole commission...
E.IIson: l.Jere you here Lhe night they gave that Presentatiorr of al] the
dif f ererrt ones? There were a 1ot of win situations there '
E;trli: f gave you Toolsie PoPS Lo soften you uP but it didrr't wcrk'
Snnirr3:.r: O]-d(; r in the:ourt. JefF, you haven't said anything'
Farma ke:: I Lhinl., it should be l -7 arrd I think lhat that Point was made
qr-ri t-:-, a whiI.: a5o -
Cc,,rrrad: Tf,.., res.+. of us misseC it '
Farmakce: It's still going to become quite cloudv whether or not iL
ii se"rns to nre that the advantage of a PUD is financial anyvray ' one
ihe other for Lhe developer. t^lhy would a developer develoP a piece
propertY if it wasn't in their f inarrcial interesL?
's in,
way or
of
Emrning:: th,.y wouldn't unless they're stupid '
Far mer [:e
that's
That .t
of the
urhi]
te
Goins on that basis, I think if t-7 is the
at iL works out to, I think tha! still gives
I gives them the leverage !o utilize Pieces
rr-ain, wiII develoP oLherb,ise -
average size , if
them the leverage.
of proper!y. Because
Emrni ngs: tJhat would
went through here?
Er har t : tJhy don 't
spent a lot of time
anything t onight '
be the gross densi.ty on Lhe Lundgren one Lhat we iust
Krauss: 1 .4 uniLs an acre -
we just ask them to go back and }ook at that '
diicussing this. t^te're obviouslv not going
Look at that aPproach versus this aPProach '
Krauss: tJould vou like me to get, you only heard from one developer- -
in"i";= a ]ot of them'out ther! who have worked in this communitv. Should
we get a panel of them togeLher? I mean we can get real assenteric and dis
it,il tn;ns real deep and ior. ,p Nith an ordinance that makes absolutelv no
sense to somebody *"rr.ine-";t in the f ield. If they're not going to do it'
!^,e ought to know about it and just drop it'
[^ic 've
to pass
Plannin3
Oc t obe. r
Comm i ss iir n Heet i ng
, 1,991 - Page 46 't
IEmmings: But r^rouldn't they u,ant, you know if f,m a developer and I come toyou and r sav, how can r develop and you show me a subdivision ordinance. -I say ol..ay , I don't I i ke it . tlhat alier natives do I have? you say okay I
weJ I yo,.L can develop it the same dendity but ble can give you lots of ' I
flexibilitv in your road construction and your setbacks arid your abilitv toclust.er, you cen develop your property any way you want to as Iong .= yo., Jdon't exceed this number and as long as we like your p]an. rt males =.n=u Ifor the property and h,e can protect some trees and things Like that.l^louldn't e developer be irrterested in that? -l
Ellscn: How's thaL different than our own?
Emming=: If it Nas that r.,ague?
Krauss: A deve.Loper like Lundgren that's fairry perceptive and undersLandsthat arrd is design oriented, yeah they r^ri]l. But you've got to reaLize '.1when you'r-e going through a pUD you,re asking a guy to go-through i Irezonins which thev reallv wouldn't have to do. -ri expises thei to any3,/5ths. They need a super majority to approve the rezoning. They only -tneed a simple nrajoriLy to approve a plat. It's a lot more *"rf i"r-ln!, t, Icom" up with alr this stuff. r don't know if it,s uorth it for them. -' -'
I hone=l ly clon'+. -1
Emnrj ng-,: t,h), cjon't you ask? Rather thanwhy don't ycu just run the ideas past LhemI think. I don't knor^r, whaL do you think?preserrlat ion here otherwise?
getting a panel of them
some and teII us HhaLYou're tal king about
toget her ,they say,
a not her
Krauas; Nc,- you've had the presentation - r think come up with a version,-of this ordinance or reave it the r^ray it is and telr them irr.,"t-. .r"i -i;i;,1
vou're thinking abc,ut and say the planning commission would Iike io r,".i " i
fi"oni you. Your reactjon to this. I mean clearly if the idea is jusL tomotiv.-te, is the motivation that we had with the earrier puD,;-";i;; ;;= 'I
cr-arrk .rlrt more lors- people get less building space. rt. iiiy n"a; '---
|absolutel;- nothing out of it and with a vague promise that it's going tolota:r the pricc of housing when obviously it didn,t, *f,o ".i... t^le don,t -neeil tc, clo arrything. .But r found 9oin9 throush thai "r" ,iih-i n."a"iJ "r_i.,
iRi.iad one, a rather unique experience because it rearry provea uhere the pUDwas complelely valid when it didn't in any way encouras" ,na.r;ii"; i;i='.-;
Emrnings: Okay, [,Je ,re going Lo table this. I
Erhart: There's some other things here though. f ,ve got a question here.-Jmoving right along here. your compuLer prinied out soie d;"b-I;-;;;";;;= : IDid you notice that? Bottom of the page. <.1, U"it"*""f-r.S. f- you,vegot some repeats of sentences and Iines. Okay, th"n on ( f '). t^le so to 1 . -rL,oulevard prantinss. rs this on Lop of our new ordinance for iI"EI".Jr ii. Ir mean alr of a sudden ilm reading this and arl of a sudden *.;;;-;;;;;;;;.'
Krausg.: No, it's not on top of it. your new ordinance for ]andscapino '.1applies in subdivisions. It doesn,t apply in pUD,s. I
Erhart: It doesn't apply in pUD's. So we,re requiring,
Planning Cornmission Heeting
OctoLrer 2, 1997 - Page 47
lrraus:: WeIl f gue:s maybe it is redundant because you have to conre
thror:gh r+i+,h a PIat with the PUD.
Emmi rgs: t^JeI I shouldn't it aPPIY?
Krauss: t^JeII definitely it should. I put it in here to make sure, r
hrasn't double hjtting. f! u,as to make sure it applied.
Erhart; You've got a lot of requirements here. Your rear yard shall
contain at l.east 2 over story trees. That'S not even in our landscaping.
Emmings: Foundation plantings. I don't remember there being requiremenLs
f cr fc,'.lrrdat iorr PIant irrgs.
Erhar!: [^Jher e 's this IandscaPing?
Ky i.'-1-::,; That ns new,
B.-.t:I i: L.j:.. taIk:,C abot-rt this.
Ell::rn: !J.- t-alked about this though. I remember -
Be t:1i : Lti pt_tD dweller-s talked about it aL, ureII it was meetings and
rre€t i ng'; .eo rroli but it seems like yesterday.
El l::,rr : I l-erneixbcr toc a budget, or something was going to come out but
yeah, r,re wanteci it. Lo ar-'Ply to that sort of thing '
Bat-zl i : Th.--:., werc some of Lhe things that w€ t'Jere going !o get f rom
f,a'"ir,1 a FLJ! jn there. ft wasn't gc'ing to be a one to one transference of
opcn -:pl-, to 15,ooo squ3re feet. The kind of a deal like you were sa)'ing '
!li !.rEr'e talkinEJ about arnenities in the PUD '
Er;,;: i rris I t4a./be this section PauI, the overall landscaPing PIan. Havbe you
ou:;ht to incorPorate oLlr other landscaPing Plan and then add anything we're
gDi n3 to a,J,l I i ke foundation Plantings -
Krauss: Yeah, keep in nrind too that this was originallv drafted irr the
sF,ring and weive since gone on and the landscaPing stuff has jumped ahead
of this and we',.,e f inaliy got that f igured out so there's a .Lack of
consislcncy for that
Erhart:IguessthewholethinghitsmehereislhatLhewholeideaofthe
PUo weg to allow creativity and now all of a Sudden, bam. t,le're going Lo
have 2 over Story Lrees in the rear yard and xe're going to have boont'
W.ir" going to have icundaLion plantinss. t^le're going to have boulevard
piant:igs.- alt of a sudden Ne're getting real specific'
Batzli: But we didn't get any creativiLY - t^le haven't got anv'
Erhart: l,Je11 r,.,:e haven't done any. f don't know '
Batzli: Yeah bu! nobody urants to do thenr .
f lanni r,g Cornmission Meeting
Qctober 2, )99L - Page 48
L
Erhart: I'nr just surprised. f was surprised when I read this.
Batzli: f agree. I think it should be creative, I mean I think thisshoulc L,e win for people who move in. t^lin for the city. The developer. rshould be attrac.tive to them and I don,t see that we,re doing that yet.
Erh;rt: And then beyond that.
Batz]i: The only pec,ple that ever do themand they dc it for a different reason.
are Lundgren. f mean you krrou: -
Erhart:
Gee we g
must hav
archi tec
her e . t^,
tural s
e 're no
Ma ybe
€-t thee nisse
I missed the meeLing on this- f &,,as just really surprised. -architectural standirds. I don,t remJmber talkins about. : Id that meeting. Is that what we said at a meetin! hre Nanttandards, and again we don't even, we,re talking about lotsL talkins about site plans.
IEl l,:rrr: Tr^,,?:-.i a'a Lhc Lhi ngs that . , .remember this exactly. Fort-e.:.:.c,n t 5e.;- coulcl ha,.,e the street signs could be a tad diiferentthesc-..Th::, w;re going to g€.t bushes r^rhen they moved in. Justnri rri ffiLln. .
on here for a minute. Again, if this goes asguidelines on placement of air conditioners?
r^r it jumps frorn what concept of creativi.ty toictatins specifics. The whole thing just hit
this
and aIla bar e
a PUD
Do you
all of a
me li ke
E: hart: Let n.we're gci nJ tothe cr,nt ras.t c,f
sudden rnan r.re 'r'
I
PU
h
seL
t^lh:t a.i-e we doi rrg
ta l'k i r,9
ErharL;
1t- ?
\,'i-a h , 1,,-:t €ire we tal ki n9 aboutabcut 3O,OOO square foot loLs?
9,OOO square foot lots or are we
RiE,ht , Arrd !,Je're also talking abouteven some 5,OOO square foot Iots.maybe some zer o .L ot I i nes o
Erhart; B'rt that's in another section which that also confused me. Nowall of a sudrie rr r,,re go to section zo-5o7. Now we,re back to the minimum 25gross 6rea . Ar',: f reading this risht? plus those thro page= don,t , page 3doesn't so to page, Iet's see. Bottom of page 2 does nol iit witrr lnJ topof page 3. There's something. There's at reast 6 inches ai a feet in,heighL can of the puD, the plan should be developed. rrr.r.;. somethingu,rons here, A typo. Am I the only guy who saw this?
Erhart: WeIl anyway, it's confusing
ElIson: Brian's usuaJ. Iy the one that
Conrad: Yeah, you,re the only one.
Batzli: I clidn't set pasL A
f read it and it sounded right.
Lo me-
finds those.
rn gection 2o-5o7 re.Iates to these zero lot ]ine thi.ngs? rs that
11r-a Lr.js : \'€ 1..
Plarinin3 Conmission Meeting
October 2, 7997 - Page 49
Er h..r, t : Clfia).
g)'c)53.11.e.r i'f
readi rrg t ha t?
And those you're suggesting lhat we maintain just this 25%
the PUD to be set a=ide in these protecLed areas' Am I
Ye3. t^le're tal king abouL fairly intensive . . -
Erhart:
t hought
oh, I undersLand.
there Nas an extra
t^JeII because the
page in there. I
pages didn't meet, maybe I
m just checking. okaY, I'11
Emminge: Are we kind of worn out on this for tonight?
Conred: Yeah .
Emmi ngs: !,Jhat can we do?
ElIscn: I Iilr: his idea. Ask some of Lhe developers '
Emmirrg',: Dc, you think you can make anyLhing out of Lhe
corriinent.; you're goirlg Lo have in the Hinutes?
Krarr::i: I can rnake a lot out of iL - The question is,
to resolution lhe next time. I still don't understand
to allol.: irrdjviCr-ralLy or col)ectively Iots belour 15'ooo
Emrnings: Yeah.
Corrr:.ilr Yel: .
Er'iri r, ;: i f have rro problem uith thaL "
11t-;.u::: E;-i;.n Yc,u stiIl do-r
B.-t:1.:: I Corr 't if that's average -
Ir'l.rt: ]f 15's avcrag€'?
B:it-zIi: Yeah-
Emrnings,: Alright, if I have 1oO acres and I'm Putting
foot Iots, you'r'e against thaL?
pages and pages of
Ratuli:That'5it?That'SaIIyou'redoingonlooacres?t,lhate]se'the
r- e-ii an ouf- Iot ?
Emning: Mr' average ]ot size is 9,OOO square feeL so I don't think
whai- you sa)' is r,rhat I 'm saying.
Fatzl i : i.le I I th"rt 'cl be wonderful I supPose if thev did that '
ari,:rii ri:,: : \;,"-, rilli' obviously but I don't think you mean Lhat votl
a9ai r':.t arr eiver-age of 9,oOo. Under certain circumstances it coulci
air i.ght- . Ii_'.-. .ot wh.t- r.J e wanL. IL's not what's goint: to haPp'=n
wi 11 that bring it
if there's a desire
square feet.
on four 9,OOo square
you rnea n
,l-e
bebui i t's
Plarrning Comrrtission Meeting
October ?, 799f - Page 50
not , ule:
it up to
LIISON:ir.
Farma kes :
Emm i ngs :
Farma kes :
about 252retirementthe house.
EII=.c,n:
Emn i ;-r3:
eht ouldn't just LhrouJ j.t out Ihc developer. I really do.
don't think. I think r"re should leave
Yep, I do too, Let us see it. [^le know Nhat we ]ike when we see
Batzli: But unde,r this current one.
Conrad: But that's unfair Lo the developer,
Emmings: No it's not -
conrad: Yeah it is. rf we say we li.ke an average 9,ooo square foot lot "l
size. I
P.:+.zli: He'II bring it in. -l
IConrad: .Nobr:d,- here would really like to see Lhat.
Frrffri ns3.: trcn't sra:. it . "l
I
Batzlj: If for exampLe they did a single road in. They had a littlecul-,Jc'-sac in Llre middlr:, which trould probably be against ";, ,; i;; -;"".,r=,"1
jt'cl h: c)v.r r.,5oc feet or someLhing, but lhey have a littr.; ."r:;;-;;;:-* |Thei"r"r: got four 9,ooo square foot Iots and the rest of it is an outrot aIIth.: we), arc,und it, *o',rlcl arry of us: really be that againsi iat -
j
Ernming:.: ll.).
El]:.c,n: i'{jcc secluded little thing. "l
I
Ernn,i r:ge : That 's c l usLer i ng .
That 'd be great. But who in the r^ror]d is goi ng tocoul,j because each one of those 9,OOO square foot.,,-'t slOCti and they'd just say, well it,s all fair.
do that?
lots would
t^te I l
be
El Lson: The cjr:e :- f arm that's behind here .
Cerltex did that in Eden prairie. They calI them ViIla€,e Hornes. -
llcw did it r.Jork out?
Just what you described. They offered a variationfrom the smaller loL single family homes. easicallyhouse - You wou.l.dn't have to mow more than about 5
in price of
they 're afeet ar ou nd
Yeah, and I thinkthat don't lJant Lhe
that's a vi ablebigger loL.option.,.Brian that there are
gre.rt to me. Alright) no!,, you asked a queslion.
Planning Commission Meet i ng
Ctctober ?, 799! - Page 51
Krauss;
15,OOO.
I think you're saying that you are willing Lo consider lots belor.r
Emmings: tJ6']l consider anything. tje'II consider zero Iot lines- Ne')1
consider 5,OOO. 9,OOO.
Krauss: But do you still want to Put a ceiling in what you could see?
Emm i ngs: Yeah .
Erhayt: In terms of densiLy?
Krauss: Yea h .
Ernming=: That's what I Nant to do.
Corrra.J: Ye.J h .
Fatzli: I woulcl eay, if yc,u put density limitations on there, I would also
lit: to e. open space that isn't privately owned. I r^rould Iike to see
that r,rhich I dcn't think is Par! of your densiLy scenario '
Ernrni ngs: l,,J hc owns it? If it's not privately owned , who owns it?
Bat;li: o,,rtLot.
Kr auss BuL urho's going to take care of -.-?
tlf .:,'s g;ing Lr, take care of it? t^Jho's responsible for i''?E mrl i ng: :
iI-,r-:
UelL that-'s never bothered us
,- c,,-r really think these PeoPIefixirrg their monumenLs? Get
before. t"lhy ar-e you going to starL
in the Lundgren lots are going !o be
real . Grow uP. Come on.
Enirri ngs: Brian, r warrt you to put boLh feet back on the floor. You iumPed
fro::r outlot t. monuments somehow and that was quite a IeaP
Batzli: That,s dhat they u$ed Lo do. I mean basically my development has
an ouLlot wilh a monument on it thaL's owned by some guy that lives in Cuba
or sonre.Lhing. Il's not 9oin9 to be taken care of. so Lundgren comes in
and says ,u"ill fi* that. tle;ll make it part of this guy's Iot and he's goL
i covenant Lo f ix the monument. Come on - [^le've done it in the pdst ' t'Jhy
are we r^,orried about it all of a sudden right now?
Emmi ngs: Let's
problem.
please not talk about monuments- That's a differenl
Batzli;It's part of their oPen sPace
Btr!: if there's a need for public open sPace ' shouldn't that have
En',iirirret: Thzrt's park. That's got nothing tc' do with what hJe're !alking
aboul here - ThaL's seParaLe.
Kraus'j i
be,e rr, -.
Planning Commission Heeti n9
October 2, 1991 - Page 52
BatzI i :
that .
Okay, then make all the open space park. Then I,d be happy with
Emmings: And now iL's the citizens fesponsibility Lo take care of it. Thewe're noL going to like that
BatzI i : tJhy?
E I.I son: l.l ha t about that same,..Lhat was
aII they do is, then don't
9roN _
behi nd the people?
gror., any grass. Put some trees orr
Krauss: That's not Lhe way it works _
Batzli: t^leIlit and let it
Batzl i : h)l'.y?
Krauss: You get demands for totlots -You get demands Lo pick up the garbage.
Emmings, : Right. No, I don,t think we want.noL privaLely owned in part of lhe lots, what
Conrad: I think it,s the Emmings Foundation.
You get demands to cut the ureeds.
If it's not parkland and it,rl
then?I
Batzl i; Then make itand it's owned to al}take g3ys of it- Butthe association.
a requirement that there's a neighborhood associatioe.the units in the 1ots. Commonly ourned. Let Lhemgive them a vehicle to take care of it by requiring
Erharti I Lhink the problem
area that you're preserving,
thi ngs and nobody can uual k i n
you've got this
pr ivatel y owned
pr ivately owned woode,the guy can post
is when
ir.
Batzli: That's right - I mean urhatvisually. Preserve j.t buL it wouLdbecause they're basically and againgiving up lot size to get it.
Emmi ngs: They 're noL .
Batzli: t^leIl I view ita detached commi ssionerthe people in them viewguys ai. I clearly rejecL
's Lhe good of, well open space is goodbe better I think if it was useableyou guys don'L Iike this but they're
differently because I live in one. younot living in one of them, I,m sayingit as, and you can accept it or rejectit but that's how they view it.
view
Lhis
it.
ir
You
as
whaE
Emmings: It sourrds Iike a detached retina.
Conrad: I Iike the detached chairman.
EIlsor: I think another night with the planning.
Batzli: I'd simmer down by then.
Planni ng Commission Heet i ng
October 2, 7991 - Page 53
Enrmi rrgs: Yeah, can we talk about this another night tahen Brian's not here?
El lson; Yeah, special meeLing. Don't Iet him know.
Emmi ngs: tJel I . I don 't know
conrad: They're reaIly good commenLs.
Emmings: No, I Lhink we're talking about a lot of important stuff but I
think we've t^rorn ourselves out for tonight.
BaLzIi: Thanks for making me feel good.
Emmings: Brian, you're responsible for bringing up aLI of Lhe most
imporLanl things that u,e talked about. Not let's see- Minutes- Oh, we're
going to Lable this and vou're going to figure out.
Krauss; Exactly what you said,
Emnrinss: Do it. Just do it-
Erhart: This is vour commission.
KrausF: t^JeIl Steve, isn't this one of the Places where you jumP in and
vol u ntee r ?
Emmings: I'11 rewrite the ordinance tomorrow afternoon -
conrad:
would be
Planning
You coul.d make it Pretty vague I have a feeling. But I think this
a case where the Planning Director and the Chairman of the
Commission might just get Logether.
Emmi ngs: You never did.
Conrad: f k nc-rw -
APPROVAL OF HINUTES: The
September 4, t99L weTe so
CITY CO UNCIL TE:
Emminss: They will be starting
Emmings: Let's see now. Lundgren they Put off
HanagemenL - Is there any of these anybody wanLs
they're going on the grandfathered recreational
comrade Farmakes has been aPPointed to the sign
actually exists aL this point in time?
Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated
noted as presented.
deciding it - Surface tlater
to LaIk about? I'm glad
beachlots. And You see,
ordinance task force. Tha!
Krauss: It wi I I , yes . It does .
Farma kes: Neul
Krauss: oh, on
slgns are goLng
the buildins?
Lo meet. That's going !o be tough -
up I noticed.
Yeah, they are.
Planning Commission MeeL i ng
October 2, 1997 - Page 54
Batzli: They were putLing them up
Emnri rrgs: Seven Forty One, there's store goi n9 in there?
vote. The or igi na I developerKrauss:Iost it Yes there is.
and the bank's
That was ongot iL now.
today.
a I iquor
a split
BaLzl i : The/ 've got
Iooks nice.some nice cement in the windows though righ! there. It
Emmings: Say I 'II teLl you,I'm happy to Happy Garden If.
Restaurant?Batzli: Is thaL the Chinese
Emm.i ngs: Yeah.
EIIsc,rr : You know it's more expensive than the one in Mound.
Emmings: Okay. Thanks paul for the report, I guess
l^Je've gc,t our ongoing iLems here. t^lhat, besides nowresidenLial component which Iooks like it will takethe next thing we're going to take on here?
we're done on that -
wor ki n9 on the PUOquite a whiIe, what's
Krauss: l^lell r,,re u,enL through lhis stuf f at a sLaf f Ievel today. By the iday, we 're coming into a new year and I think I really need you all tothinli of r^rh::t you r^,,a nt us to tackle coming.up. I mean we,ve been makins a_Iot of headu,ay, on things that have been on this list. Some .i if,.,r-"i"- -1-
going to Lake a while to resolve but are there areas Lhat you Hant us toget' involved in that aren't on here nod? you don,t have to ans*er thatnour- I can give you a quick rundoun of what,s happening on a couple -Ithinss. Thc Highwav 5 corridor studv is something r needed a.-;;;;; ItonighL because there's, the council wanted to sei up a task force, a workgroup, r^rhatever tc work with staff and the Universj.ty and possibility a -tconsultant. Figure out r,rhere are we right now. set some goals. p"i"*at"r, jfor-thi:r prosram and figure ouL hor^r to g.t there. r gu"==-i-i;;o;;;;i;--' 'expres.j':'il a con.iern Lhat what we've done insLead of soins through theprocc"ss that gave us the comprehensive plan, for seviral-r""="ni tn"- t-universitv was contracted with the Urban Design center tr,"re-io-al Ior" I
visioning sludies and that's fine. rt,s an interesting exeicise but that,snot going to result in the corridor study. It,s going to r€sult in a Iot _!of ideas as not way to bring it to fruition. so i've-been "on."rn tI.i-- Iit's kind of a leg but it's not the rest of the torso. .ena-pru" there,sbeen some questions about how the University,s been ,"rting so far. TheUniversitv's charging ahead with some things and r have
'""-iJ.. ,r,.t '- Ithey're working on but Ne came away, Don Ashworth and I weni to theuniversitv on Fridav and met with them and thev'r" J"ing some interestingstuff and we want to brins rhem back into the fold heiel -a;
"h"a ia--- " -.,1
amounts to is r^re need a couple of folks from the planning C"rris=ion t" l
work with Lhe HRA and citv council and become lhis nucreus of a work gioupto figure out how best to get a handle on this TH 5 ahi;;. There,s a lot -of ideas kick.ing around. council's talked about moratoriums. oesign ---
standards. AIr sorts of things and this effort really n""a" t" u"organized- tte'd like to have a nreeting in the next couple of weeks
Krauss: Don't knour honestly, I mean initially we're talking about t oY 2
meetings to get our act together in effect but it's my guess that as r^re
proceed, these PeoPIe r.ril] Probably be Lhe nucleus of the group that's
working on it, if not the grouP.
Emmings: AIright, who's interesLed in that? In doing Lhat? I am' t'Jas
that Jef f ?
Planning Comrnission Heeting
October 2, L991 - Page 55
Emmi ngs, :
it goi ng
t^lhat kind of a time commitment are
to have to be asked?
people that are inlerested in
out there too- You've got, I can'!
owns the cor ner .
Farmakes: yes.
Emmi ngs: Okay.
Krauss: Let me quickly rLln you on down the Iist of things that we're
doing. Tlt 5 we're doing something. That doesn't, you know we have the
south stucl>' area that ue've never talked about but we have to do'
Errrm i rrgs: t^rhat are
KrausE.: Yeah -
you looking at? Are vou Iooking at an item on here?
Erhart: 2. Fle started r.lith 1 and nou he's on 2
Kl-eussi I d,: tlr.rt sontel-irttes -
Conr:C: If he's going too fast Steve -
Emmings: Wake me uP when he gets to 3.
EIlson:
Er hart;
Year ?
Kraues: l^]e,re talking'about 9oin9 through, using iust the in house with
you, the Planning commission. Doing kind of a microcomprehensive plan
effort on that south study area so h,e're tracking along with the north
arer. That,s something we can do during the year. Blending ordinance, can
I take t het off?
Take it off. No can do.
Study area south, you actually want to work on that this next
Krauss: NeIl, we had a commitment. If you recall a lot of PeoPIe were
saying urell what do vou mean bv this? t'lhat does this mean to me as a
pilrp"it, owner ou! here? Your recommendation, the City Council's
recommendation was to Proceed and Iay out both study areas as soon as we're
done wiLh the comPrehensive PIan' Now all our focus has been on TH 5
because the Council and the HRA iumped on the TH 5 bandwagon as something
ihey want.ecl to confrorrt early on- But the south study area's been left in
Lhe du'rL.
Emmi ng= :
think of
But Lhere's another Pressurethe name of the business that
Planni ng Commission Meet i ng
October 2, 7997 - Page 56
Krauss: You enforceone out of this -
LOnrao: t.teet F arm
Emmings: Now why is that
Kraurs: Because there'syou.
Emmings: There's nothing, welI okay.
on our char t?
a lot of this that,s going to be coming back to
Emmings: You've got FLeet Farm saying you're tying our hands. you'reputti.ng resLrictions on our property and they were rattling those kinds ofsaL,ers. I think it's another thing Lhat kind of got our attention.
Krauss: RishL , but when we had that meeting for the south neishborhood. urt ,rhad people who lived in sun Ridge court on Audubon and Gare oesler, the' I
farmer, saying whaL does this mean? you're reaving us in the dark and aLlthat. so r think it was something that b,e should do to complete our task. -1Rezoning BF to A-2. That's almost done. Bluff protection ordinance - |You've got a lot of crudoes from Lhe council for Lhat. sign ordinance.Kate's going to be working, she's got some issue papers that she's doing -rright nor^r and is going to organize the first meeting. tle have Tom Uorkman Ithe two of vou and two peopLe from the chamber of cimmerce on thil. -T;;; I
protection ordinance, Jo Ann's trving to light a fire under the DNR.Hopefully that urill succeed. Rezoning 2 L/2 acye lots to RR. Thatis "]almost done. Surface l^Jater Hanagement plan. t^Je,ve got our t<ict ott *e"tins_lon Honday wit-h the Task Force-
-
the wetlands ordinance and you,re going !o get a neur
Emmings: Yeah, yeah okay .
Krauss: ShoreLarrcj ordinance. Jo Ann's got a meeting in two weeks to oetgoing on Lh.-,t. The staLe buirt a new ordinance and we have .r-"uiin.tiJ" -:to cherrrge c,urs. Group honre ordinance. I'm asking Jo Ann t"-sei-i;;;i;;Jwitlr tl-ris - r have a concern and ve spoken to Roger auoui i[. r mltnthave mentioned it to vou. First of alr some gtatuLe has changed relati.ve lto tl-re regurations on groups homes. t^,hat you can and ""n,t Ji.- ;;;----- lprerrise r approach a lot of these things from is, r belier" in th. need tospread Lhe wealth with group homes. That group homes should be Iocated in_arl conrmunities- Everybody shourd take their share. ue can'i i".i-p.r"- Iour problems off on south Minneapolis or whatever uut r;m-ioncerned thatour ordinance doesn,t give us a good handle on making, =ura-if,ut group homesare done right. And there's been a rot of work on tr,i=. -r["i; ;";-;";;"'-Etask force set up on-this through Hennepin County u-i"^-y""i. "go. TheState Iaw changed relative to group homes because of thai. thai,s the onethat mandales that you can,t regulate them if they,re Iicensed group homes_under 12 people. But r think we need to have Roger sit ao*n-ini t.ir J='- iwhat you can and can't do- Have Jo Ann give you some iaeai about r,lhat,ssorre good ways of deaLing urith this are and then look at amendinq ourordinance so He got a better handr.e on it. you rearry ulant l; J; tti= ,,or-when nobody's banging on your door. Rural area policies- Boy, Lhe Metrocouncil should have approved Lhis already. r,ll check on that. uelrthat's t[]e one where we had the contract... Landscaping standards, the
PIanning Commission Meet i ng
October 2, 1997 - Page 57
Council real. ly Iikes that one too, That's uP for second reading. There's
still somc- quest-ion I Lhink on the number of trees. t^le have Richard t^ling
on one sicle pushing very heavily for it. We have Tom l^lor kman on the other
uho translates thaL i.nto a dollar issue to the homeowner and it just gets
passed a]ong. So Ne're going to bring back some information to them at the
second reading jus! so we have an analysis of what other communities are
doing. I'm Pretty sure we're requiring more than any other community I
know of. PUD ordinance. HeII, you know where we're at on that- Your-
input in Lhe downtown Planning study. That's meandering along. ['le're
b,orking with strgar-Roscoe on that. Things are starting to haPPen. Number
14 is something that Kate and Sharmin are going to be trorking on. I think
tonight you had a perfect examPle of ue have an ordinance that says He
should be doing something but it doesn't sav what we should be cloing in
terms of architectural sLandards. This is something again Lhat Councilman
t^ling and other people in the council have really been Pushing heavilr.
tt'i realI;- kind of an inLeresting Phenomena - t^lhen r^,e aPproved l'larkeL
gquere. t^Jhen that came through here 2 years ago,'Jo Ann and I were
insistin that we wanted things like piLched r-oofs and we nanted things
Iike desig parapet walls in the back and all the screening and everything
else. Ar,J u:e were able to do a lot. I think for the standard 2 years ago
we cjici a .l"ot . Nor,r the council, some people on the counci.L look at that and
the-z said, oh my Gocj . tJhat did we do? How can we change it? The
mentaljty, the underslanding has moved so radically Lhat they're now on the
other sidc of the issue. I think we have to address that in our ordinance -
Bluff Creek corridor greenway. I don'L know where to go with that. You
approved the c,rdinance. I think the Park Board needs to get invol-ved now -
I've talkec-l with Todd Hoffman about that- There may be a role for
coordination r,rith the Planning Commission. I guess I'd need to flush that
c)Lrt. f mean the Park Board may want you to work with them on that.
BatzIi: From my tall'ring with just one of the Park and Rec PeoPIe, they
stalte.l .)ut very negatively on the whole concept and they're warming to it
slor,.r]y but thel.e's no money Lo for examPle Purchase the corridor or
son:cthi rr!- LJrrless other peoPIe geL excited abouL il, I don't know that
Emrrring:,.: B,,rt. if you,ve got a Iong term plan though, as ProPerties develoP
along there you wilL be able Lo pick it up.
That's Lhe thing. The Park Board I think has kind of tunnelKrauss
vlsron.
Emrri ngs: 1t's called corridor vls.ron.
Erhart: I'II telI you, vou're exactly right.
terms of doing it today with some dollars from
Iong term planning and Park.
Krauc€: But what is there getling some grants going Nith the Arboretum and
Lhe NaLure Conservancy. All those kinds of thinss'
They view evervthing in
lhe laxpayers, In terms c,f
Erhart: f never have, when we discuss Lhis thing, I never conceive Lhat
ue're talking about spending any dollars here' t^le're talking about the
iong ternr plan when those pioperties develop. That we have identified Lhis
Planning Commission Meet i. n9
Oct.ober ?, L99), - Page 58
cor r i dor so when they
put-.1 i c pr operty ,
Erhart: ff you go onLikc to g: along.
come in there's no question that that's going to be
a field trip Iike that, give me a holler. I would
Krauss: well the tJatershed District also wants to work with us on a Bluff Icreek plan that's more focused than our surface Hater Utility, or a lot ofemphasis ' And one of the things, r went on a tour of Nine Mire creek -lthrough Bloomington where thev had some simirar problems in terms of Isignificant erosion and stuff and they went in and fixed it but they uor ked'wiLh the citv to fix it as a recreational amenity and there's a beautiful _trail svstem and bridges. That makes sense in south Bloomington Lhat as -l
heavilv a designed a trail as that doesn't make sense here but something I
like that -
.l
KIauss: Okay. So I'lI keep you informed on thatthings arc sta)-ting to materialize. Modifications
wor ki ng on Lhat now.
because I thi nk someto beachlots , we're
Enrrrri ng..j: I would 1i ke Lo have
i nter es t e^i in that issue.
notice of meeLings on that because I'm real
l.( r ausE :
Ordi rra ncetr>'ing to
f gL, ess ;
aLrc,ut.
Kraus:: Liquor-
o+- he r t hi ngs, I
t hi n3 loo that 'sI C:, r, 't it,=rl.r,r how
Er,rii rr3s; yeah , don , t details nor^r. Let's get done.
tJe're going to notify the planning Commission, City CounciI.amendment for non-conforming uses. This is someti.ring t^re,reurork out with Roger. tJe don't deal. with these things real welI'lI have to bring you the ordinance to see urhat we're talking
g 1ve us
stores. That's something the Council askedhave some administratjve items I,m going tobeen kicking around that I've tried to staymuch Ionger I can is this golf course. deal.
Krauss: To,n wanted me to set up a meetingdo that"..but it didn,t pan out. To reallyso f guess ue're going to do that whenever
Erhart: Joan was .
amongst everybody.
see brhat to do and
ure can.
for. A couple
wor k on. One -tclear of but i
I tr ied to
how to do i
Erhart: I thought
evolved into"..
EL Ison: t^lhen you Here gone .
Erhart i To me that ,s tr.ro dif ferent things -
Bal-zli: tle did a lot of that at the 19th meeting.ujere goll?.
Krauss: tJhich, the BF?
we had a work item to eliminate BH district and then it1
That uJas the day you
Planni ng Conrmission Heet i ng
Oct ol-rer 2 , 7991 - Page 59
Erhart : ['Jo, tlrr: 6ns down on 212.
K)'aus:r: \'e;h, lhe BF dis.trict. Number 2.
that. Ns'r'e going to be bringing tha! back
Erhart: Yeah, that's it.
Emmings: Son'e administrative items here.quitting I guess, However you want Lo Put
Ellson: I've had enough of you guys.
Emm i ngs :
the end
over.
I've got Jo Ann hror king on
to you again.
Annette has retired. Or isir.
to know anything? Do you $ant Lo knouJ
whelher o'r' not they're Planning to
And we also have Ladd, Tim, Steve and Joan, their terms are uP al
of the year. So basically we've got 5 Potential sPots turning
Erhart: tJho? Ladd, Tim and h,ho?
Emmi ngs: Ladd , Tim , Steve and Joan .
Er hart : Ol-, yor_t I,teve .
Enrmi nr.;c: Good Tim. So
from the peotrIe who are
submit an aPPl icatiorr?
do /ouup this
wa nt.
year
Krauss:
kinC ".f
ThaL r,rould be good to know. PeoPle often ask when thev applv what
c,p: n i ng: thc.re at-e.
Emm i ngs :
peoplc?
EmmingE: f
everybod)'.
Are you gc,ing to advertise five sPols nou and we'Il intervieur
Krau5,:,: If th€ ad went ouL, Ne'
then I realized we were close to
secreLary to advertise for them
re gor ng
the end
al I "
in an ad foryear anyHay.
Annett e
I asked
to
of Put
the
and
n'/
Emnin3:: So ther-e are 5 sPots advertised?
Krauss: Shc,uId be.
Emmi nss: Is the pay going to
a nrinute.
that 's r ight .
stay Lhe same?
Batzli: tJait
El Ison: It seems
stagger 6.J mor e?
Kr auss:
jumb I e.,J
Emmi ngs : oh ,You're not getEing any -
weird that they a]l come in turo grouPs. t^Jhy aren't they
Vick>. tells me she thought they were at one time and something go!
up and I think she's righL. There's Probablv
rei nler vi ewed
that crew to ourkrrow what haPPened I think. I think they
tjhen it turned over from Tom Hamilton and
Planning
Oct ot,er
Commission Meet i ng
, 1997 - Page 60
preEer,t i.Llust-rious City CounciI, they reinterviewed everybody. Didn'tthe:l
Ellsorr: 1 wasn't interviewed until last year.
Emming:,: Either a whole bunch of people were up at that lime or they kindof rej nterviewed ever ybody .
Conrad: I thought r^re
two different daLes.
had three different times. I didn't know iL was jus
Kratts,E : tjc:l I i t 's evolved into two -
El.Lson: tjith seven people Lhat,s a big chunk.
Krauss: L.Jel I Lhe 3 vear terms , and maybe Lhe f airest way Lo do it is whent -, g€t- th::e- 5 positions ref ilIed.
El]son: Sofire ore 2 and some are 3?
lir au:.,s: Ye,lh . Two peopJ.e draw out of a hat and lhey get one year terms.
Erhart: t^lell 1'd volunteer for thaL. I oy 2 year terms,
Emming:: I r,rr:uId too.
Erhart: I'cl Iike to do orre more year. Max thJo.
KrausE: Yeah but Lhat doesn't, oh yeah your term is up. Actually thatwould for both of >,ou.
Emmings.: ok;:/. !,Jhat do you need from us? Anything on this issue?
Krauss: l'ro- te'Il br"ing you back the names. ue,rl do the usual deal .tnle'lI set up some interviews-
Emminge: [.Je've got our attendance record here.
EIlson: Jeff, have you rea.l"Iy been here every time?
Farmakes: l^lell I was late today but I,lI stay after school _
El. I son:
Emm i rrgs :
on her e
Conrad:
Batz I i:
what we'
Enrm i ng.: :
You and Steve .
He gets a liltle 1- I was surprised. Therethan I haC expecteC to see.
I've had quite a feu.
LiLLLe bit of favortism het'e on the attendancere sayi ng?
You 've goL ?.
are fewer absences
sheet? Is that
Planni lrg Commission Heet i ng
October ?, !991 - Page 61
con]-ad: I know I missed 2 inarow.
Emmings: rnell that's aII that's on h;re. It's not really as bad ab I
thought. You know we've been havinEi trouble with forums here and I
thought He were 9oin9 to see something tha! ulas kind of different than
that.
Krauss; Nell the July 17th and there were 3 that occurred.
Emmings: !^Jhat's the standard? t^,hat's the Percentage?
Krauss: There's something in the enabling stuff,
Erhart-: How come you guys got that...
Ellst,rr : You got it in your Packet.
Emmin.3:: ft urasn't in the Packet. It uJas Iaying on the table-
Erharti Beceiuse this stuff you're suPPosed to lake home and read and not
intcr-f ci-e with your duties here.
EIlsc,n: You're supposed to come early enough Lo catch uP on any letlers
people have- given since Lhe packet was given out.
Enrrri ngs: tlhat is the standard? tjhat is the Percentage that you're
supposed to have?
Batzli 1 752.
Emming.: Is it?
BatzIi: yep.
Emnir,g=: t^lell. it looks Iike almost evervbody is there excePt maybe Joan. I
don't knor"r. Hoon VaIIey, there's a big.
Krauss: Moon Valley applied for a Permit' I rejected it-
Balzli: But di.d you meet with him? t^lhen did vou send this letter? Oh
October
Krauss: Yesterday .
Emrrii:r: And how is it going?
Krauss: Not urell. I think we have a coul't date for ocLober 18th-
Emmings: You're going to enforce whatever
Kraus.: NeIl to insist that Lhev apply for the permit and give us all the
i nformati on the ordj.nance requires.
Emmingrr: And they haven't done that?
Planni ng Commission l,leeti ns
October 7, !997 - Page 62
Krauss: I don'L Lhink so.
Emnri ngs :
fa i led Lo
This
give:
is everythi ng you've
you ?
gotten so far? Or everything they've
Batzli: Sc, Lheother one is the
Krauss: Yeah.
Krauss; Right .
grading
L,/2 act e
tHo
2
plans you've gotten. One is the crater andlots?the
Batzli: And they're bothPlan A and PIan B?
submitLed as part of the same plan? Kind of a
tlho is on the Board of AdjusLments and Appeals for the Council?
Tom t Jor kma n .
Jus.t one?
Krausc: Exactlv' that and Lhev won't telr us which one it is. Nour in -rmeetinge with them thev teII us if we're nice to them we can earn plan B. Im c.lepending a lot on the city Attorney's advice on how to handle this onebecar::e I see i!'s fairly inevitable it,s goin9 Lo be litigated. It'sunfortunate because clearly lhe city, r think. you and the councir bent Iovel backular-ds Lo draft an ordinance that didn,t attempL to shut them down I
c,r rr;, 1,. € their life to difficult. That,s not Lhe way they're dealing withir.
EIlr,c,rr :
Kr au 3,: :
f Li :.'-. ' :
Kr ausEr Yeah.
tJhn 's
Arrd it's on an arrnual basis so Lhat t^rill end soon.
on the Board of AdjusLments? t^lho,s everybody?
Krauss:
Mayor was
Emm i ngs :
ton i ghtr .
It's tlillard, Carol t^,atson and Tom l.lorkman,Now that night thesitting in fol t^liIlard. The Mayor's the
t.lilIard uilI probably quit after the way
a 1t-er nat e ,
he uas treated by Brian
Krauss: one last thing- Again we remain very convinced that because ofthe uray people are talking to us we,re going to be getting a lot ofapplications as Ne get into the winter. Developers all kiow they,re no!going to get anything into the ground this year and they,re shooling roispring- And we're working on some bigger projects !o bring back to-youa Iol of you are going to be in meetinss with us in the neit few ,""'k=.don't have anv applications submitted for the next octobei meeting and tgot tickets for the t^tor-Id Series.
and
t l€-
Ells,orr: Oh are you kidding. Let,s
te I1 me, isa deposi t?
have a
you had
L otter y
to send
for those -
in $8OO.OO for eachFarma kes : Nor^,ticket then as
it true
PIannin3
Oct obe r
Commission Heet
, t99t - Page 6
rng
3
K)"ausS
of f -:.
$6,40.OO for two. It's for everything lhough. That's the play
Farnrakeg: Are those good seats?
Krauss: Yeah. Right behind home plate"
Prepared by Nann Ophe i m
EIIson moved, Conrad seconded to adjournand the motion carried. The meeting uas
Submi Lted by PauI KraussPlanning D i r ector
the meet i n9 .
adjourned at
All voted in favor
10:35 p.m.
CITY OF
CH[NH[ESEN
ME},IORANDI'M
TO:
FROIiI:
DATE:
SU&T:
Planning Conmission
Paul Krauss, Planning DLrector
October 29, L99L
Report from Director
At the october 14, 1991, City Council ueeting, the following
actions were taken.
1 Zoninq ordinance Arnendment Cre tino a Bluff Line Preservation
The ne$, ordinance protecting the }linnesota River bluff
and tributary systems vlas approved in final reading.
ordinance is now in effect.
NI
I ine
The
2 Preservation. This was scheduled to be heard by the citycouncil and approved on the consent agenda. The iten uaspuIled from the agenda and discussion ensued regarding the
requirement of 3 trees per single fanily J,ot. There was asignificant difference of opinion over lrhether or not the city
should becone involved in requireroents on si.ngle fanily lotsof this nature, with sone roenbers of the city Councilbelieving that this was financially difficult and an
irnposition on new home buyers. U1tinately, action on this
reguest was continued to a special meeting to be held on
Tuesday, the folloving evening.
3. Resolution of Clean water Proiects. The Council voted to
support a resolution in favor of the City obtaining a Clean
!{ater Partnership Grant fron the ltlinnesota PcA. This grant
would be used for an in-depth study of Lotus Lake in
conjunction vrith the Surface Water Util-ity Program.
Lundqren/ortenblad/Ersbo Subdivision Recruest. The council
discussed this natter again at length raising a new issue ofpotentialfy deviating from the Park and Recreation Corunission
recommendation and requiring the provision of parkland instead
of the cash dedication that had been reconmended. Theapplicant also raised several concerns with some outstanding
4
ODl.t!t PRINTED ON BECrcLED PAPER
690 COULTER DRIVE ' PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739
Report fron Director
October 29, L99L
Page 2
conditions.
request.
The Council ultiDately voted to continue this
At the City Council neeting of October 28, 199L, the followingactions rrrere taken:
T !rh^^r6h ,/.ti+ 66}.1 iA /Fr li.r qrr bdiv S t At the previous11s 10n Re
meeting, the applicant had obj ected to 3 to 4 conditions thatwere recomnended by Planning staff and the PlanningCommission. Staff cane back to the City Council indicatingthat in areas such as the cost of utility- connections, streeiwidth, the requirernent of 3 trees per lot and one or two otherminor matters, that we continued to uphold the originalpositions. Relative to the parkland question, staff adopted
a position that supported the Park and Recreation Conmission.Inforrnati,on was provided by the Park and RecreationCoordinator that this area j.s served by four neighborhoodparks and there is no need for land in this area. Uttinately,the City Council voted to approve all 3 requests related tothe Lundgren proposal .
2 Cond it io naI Use Permit Anendme t Reqardincr Fence S ening forLakeshoreEouipment. As the Planning Commission is a$/are, theIast tirne this was on the city Council agenda, they continuedthe item to allov/ for a rneeting at the site between staff, Mr.willette and several council nembers. Ultinately, a series ofconditions !,rere agreed to which requires the lowering of thefence height over nost of the fence, replacement oflandscaping and. height restriction of uraterial stored withinthe area to 8 feet. Staff brought this set of conditions backto the City Council for final adoption and approval . Thesehrere approved and ur. willette was given until June ]-5, !992,to complete all rernedial action.
3 relininarv PIat to Re plat Lake Rilev Woods 2nd Add tion toP
ct a PIat . sone of you on the Planning
Comrnission
attent ion
install-ed
surveyingfeet north
may recall that over a year ago, it came to ourthat the developer the Lake Riley Woods plat hasa cul-de-sac in the wrong location. Due to aerror, the cuI-de-sac was located approxinately 60of r{rhere it was intended. The result of thia isthat the platted l-ot lines do not represent that was approvedby the city. One hone has been built in this area and as aresult of this error, the hone is rnisaligned and a on-sitesewer drainfield was actually located on an adjoining parcet.
The. applicant came to the planning Comrnission reguLlting avariance be granted to the 2\ acte standard to r6move lindfrom an adjoining 1ot to the east and merge it with the 1otcontaining the home, thereby remedying th! problern. Staffobjected to this position sj-nce we believe that the city is
Report fron
October 29,
Page 3
Director
1,991
under no obligation to issue variances to rernediate a
surveying error. In addition at that tine, the homeowners had
strenuously obj ected to the proposed settlement. An extensive
amount of discussion has taken place between the applicant,
the surveyor and the property owner, resulting in what appearsto be a settlement amongst thenselves. They are continuing to
request that a variance to the 2* acre standard be granted.
The City Council rras favorably disposed to this request sinceall individuals, including the homeowner, are now satisfiedwith the agreeraent. The Council further noted that there isno increase in density due to this request. The Council
approved the preliminary plat and associated variance.
4 Zonino and Subdivision ordinan e Amendments to Amend Sections
Recrardinq Landscapinq and Tree Preservation Requirements. We
thought this ordinance was approved for final reading at thespecial meeting held Tuesday, follolring the last City Councilmeeting. Unfortunately, there r^rere no minutes taken of this
meeting and the actual action on the request is open to sonediscussion. At this city Council neeting, the final readj.ng
and sunmary ordinance for publication purposes $ras approved.
Hiqhlrav 5 corridor Studv Update. The first neeting of the
Task Force was held in october. Staff used this tine to gain
sorne agreenent and understanding on goals for the studyprogram. A copy of ny meno to the Task Force is attached foryour review. Staff agreed that at the next neeting $re hrouldbring in the University of Minnesota staff as well as Barton
Aschnan Associates, who have been working on aspects of thecorridor. we are hoping that at the next neeting sre canbetter define the scope of the study, its duration, and
staf f j.ng requirements.
ME}IOR,ANDIJI{
TO: Highuay 5 Corridor Study Task Force
THROUGH: Don Ashworth, City l,lanager
FROU: Paul Krauss, Planning Director
DATE: October 15, 1991
SUR]: Highway 5 Corridor Study Options
BACKGROUND
The concept of a ttighway 5 study originated during the approvalprocess of the City Comprehensive plan last spring. TheComprehensive Plan had designated two 11995 Study Aieas,-, one onHighway 5 near Highway 41, the other south of Llman boulevardlocated outside the present UUSA Line. These areas 1re likely thenext to see development pressure. The 11995 Study irearldesignation implied that planning for these areas sh-ould berevisited at that tine. As a condition of plan approval(recommended by the Planning Connission and approved by the CityCouncil), staff was directed to r{rork with the elanning -Cormissioir
to accelerate planning for these areas. The goal was not torapidly include them in the UUSA line, but rathef to allow for anunderstanding of future land use designations and to minimize anymisunderstand ings bethreen the city and area residents.
During the early part _of the summer, interest in the Highway 5Corridor grew. councj.lrnan Wing originated contacts witfr AitfMorrish at the University of Uinnesota Urban Design Center. Stafforganized a bus tour of the Highway 5 Corridor in -conjunction witha presentation by Mr. litorrish. At the same time, tliere was sornedesire to establish a forum that would allow participation by theLandscape Arboretum. peter Olin, the Arboretum's Director, waslaunching a multi-nedia assault on what he viened as unreg.Lrlatedurban sprawl with Chanhassen labeled as the prinary culprii.
Ultimately the city arranged to work with Morrish and Lance Neckar,another staff rnember, to undertake a visioning study of thecorridor. Computer generated alternative develdpment tcenarios
Highway
october
Page 2
5 corridor study Task Force15, 19 91
hrere to assist in gaining an understanding of and ultinately
agreement upon a connon vision for the corridor.
CURRENT sIATU8 OP Tf,E PROGRAI,I
The University staff has prepared two prelininary studies. Thefirst used City Ha1l as an exampl.e of their video capturetechniques. The video illustrated ho!, City HaLL would look with avariety of landscaping schemes. This was viewed at an HRA roeeting.
The second product which was seen by the City l,lanager and nyself
deals with alternate design concepts for Highr./ay 5. This study was
acadenically interesting and thought-provoking. However, hre are
concerned that it is financially unrealistic, difficult totranslate into real action, and could undermine the rnulti-agencycoalition to upgrade Highway 5 as rapidly as possible. Theirproposals call for using bridge crossings wherever Highway 5
crosses a creek. Lane separations, median landscaping and
realignrnents were also discussed. The goal is a valid one to
create visual and real connections north/south of the Highway whilepreserving envi.ronrnental features. However, the cost of a bridgevs. a culvert is huge. If this is done, it should be done possibly
at only one of the crossings. Likewise, any additional right-of-
way reguirements would have a significant irnpact. Inevitably, thecity $rou1d have to bear the additional cost. Lastly, the city has
already approved preliminary plans for Highhtay 5 and is pushing
MnDoT to add it to their 5 year construction progran. Making major
changes at this late date couLd cause substantial delays and even
endanger the coalition of conmunities that has been successful at
prornoting the proj ect.
staff has several significant reservations with the university's
work to date, and perhaps of even rnore importance, lrhether or nottheir work progran will result in a useful product for the city.
our concerns j-nclude the following:
Despite several requests, the University's staff has soughtlitt1e or no input from the city before undertaking a work
task or ever gaining concurrence on what the rrork task shouldbe. I{e believe it is the city's agenda that is to be l^rorked
with, not the University I s.
1
2.Their work to date suffers fron a lack of coordination withcity staff, plans and programs. For example, they have shown
col-lector streets through wetlands that rrere reviewed and
dismissed during the comprehensive PIan process, and office
buildings on the Red-E-Mix site which lrill have no legitimateaccess. These are sinple errors of onission stenming from a
lack of conmunication, but they are indicative of the problen.
H ighway
october
Page 3
5 corridor
15, 1991
Study Task Force
5
t
There is little evidence of coordination rrrith the Arboretunthat was to be a part of the progran.
PROJE GOALS
The city has never realty focused upon a set of goals for theHighway 5 study. Without this first step, it is difficult toknow if hre are noving in the right direction.
There has not been a progran developed to gain regular inputfrom the Planning Commission/IfRA/City Council , nor is thlreany public information progran. This is inperative if thecity and residents are to rrbuy intor the prograrn.
Tn.summary, without neaning to dunp this entirely in the 1ap of theUniversityrs staff, we donrt believe this projecl is going ielI norwill it respond to the various issues tha{ have been-raijed. Soneof their work is innovative and thought-provoking, which is good.We believe, however, that these efforts need to -be appropriitetychanneled.
Before we can select an appropriate course of action, it isnecessary to understand and agree upon project goa1s. What do weerant.to achj-eve? Open discussion of this issue is inportant and itis 1ike1y .that staff will not be able to cone up-with a1l thepossibilities. The folLoering is a list developed-for discussionpurposes :
Refine land use plan along the corridor. EstabLish newdesignations for the 1995 study area to be rnade effective whenthis area is brought into the ITIUSA systen.
Develop corridor inage plans with focus at prirnaryintersections frorn the Eden prairie line to Highlray AfiIncorporate public irnprovements on city land and/or c-oord-inatewith MnDOTrs Highrray 5 prograrn.
Develop an improved understanding of corridor land uses andenvironnental features. Develop nethods of inproving theintegration of environrnental protection.
1
2
3
4 Find a neans to work with the Arboretumconcerns to the extent this is feasible.also be prepared to work with the citygoaIs.
to respond to their
The Arboretun shouldto nutually achieve
3. .Although it is sonewhat prenature to draw concl.usions, they donot seen to be structuring their work to result in a usable
course of action for the city.
Highway 5 Corridor study Task Force
october 15, 1991
Page 4
5. Develop inproved architectural standards, revised setbacks,
landscaping standards, reforestation provisions, etc., to
ensure a higher guali.ty and/or nore appropriate type of
developrnent in the corridor. Investigate the possibility ofestablishing a corridor overlay district or other appropriate
means of enforcenent.
6. Develop a publicr/private fundinq strategy to undertake
proposed corrj.dor inprovenents, land acguisition, capital
improvements plan, etc.
7. In conjunction with lInDoT, develop a plan to reasonably utodifyfinal construction design of Highvray 5 to nake it nore
sensitive to environmental and cornmunity needs. Goals to be
attained without disrupting construction tinetables or create
unreasonable costs.
8. Attempt to Link developnent with traffic capacities of arearoads. Attenpt to reduce traffic loadings through careful
development and promotion of alternate modes of travel.
Ensure that traffic is not allolred to irnpact residential
neighborhoods.
PROiIECT ALTERNATIVES
The following is a brief list of alternatives for undertaking the
corridor study. I'Ie have attenpted to give sone pros and cons of
each .
1. Do nothing--mandatory plannerts option (we had to ask).
current city conprehensive Plan and greatly irnproved zoning
ordinances already guarantee quality of development viIl be
higher than the past. Likely, HRA or City council involvernent
in tax increment funding, in at least part of the area,
provides additional 1evel of city control.
2. Continue with University of Uinnesota program. We believe
that this will be a frustrating endeavor unless substantial
changes are made. At best, this work is a visioning study
that wiII raise issues and expectations without providing a
means to enact the vision. we believe this needs to be
coupled with a more comprehensive corridor progral! to be
effective. The universi.ty staffts interaction with Chanhassen
City Council , staff, HRA and Planning comnission needs to be
revised to take place aLong roore typical consultant lines.
3. Hire a consultant to work with staff, Planning connission,
HRA, city council or Task Force to develop a corridor study in
nuch the same nanner that the comprehensive PIan was
completed. consultant input is variable given staff's ability
ys
r 15
Highwa
octobe
Page 5
AUUUARY
Corridor Study Task Force
,1991
to undertake a significant percentage of the work load. Thiswould have the advantage of facilitating a more rapidresolution of the issue than nay be possible rith totalreliance upon staff capabilities. University effort could beconbined into the program.
Direct staff to undertake programs. Current staff levels may
a11ow us to undertake this in-house, although sone consultantinput and expertise in areas of design and traffic rrould bewarranted. Staff brings a strong generalist background tothis program and could probably do an adequate job.
4
Staff is looking forward to receiving your guidance. We believethat we have a kernel of a good progran here. Many of you havedenonstrated a desire to see something special happen along Highhray5. tlopefully hre can cone to agreernent on the best course oiaction.
REVTSED NOVEMBER 1, 1991
ONGOING ISSUES
comprehensive PLan Issues
1.*1995 Study Area (North)
and HI^ry. 5 Corridor Study
2.* Rezoning BF Dist. to A2
3. * BIuff Protection
ordinance
4. Sign ordinance
Tree Protection ordinanceMapping of significantvegetative areas
STATUS
First Task Force meeting heldto discuss goals of progran andalternatives for nork program.
Inact ive
Staff directed to develop
scenarios - low priority
Staff preparing updatedinfornation for Planning
Comrnission direction.
Adopted to/74/9L
work group establ,ished.
meeting in November.
F irst
5
7.* wetland Ordinance,/Surface
Water l*Ianagement Program
8. Shoreland ordinance
MnDNR cornpleted rnapping program
and will lrork with city todevelop. Ne$, ordinance Laterin L99L
Task force established. First
rneeting held october 7. Videosurveys of lake bottornsunderway. Appl icat ion
submitted to unPcA for cLeanwater Action Grant for Lotus
Lake .
In January we received
noti f ication f rom the l.{nDNRthat we are a prioritycomnunitywitha2year
deadl ine
6 . r, Rezoning 2 !
RR
Acre Iots to Adopted lo/14/91
9. Group hone ordinance 19 91l inactive
2. L995 study Area (south)
OTHER ITEMS
1. Blending Ordinance
10.* Rura1 Area Policies -City request to elirninate
ninirnurn Iot size reguirementshas been subnitted to MetroCouncil. Approval granted bylletro council. ordinancerevisions reguired.
Adopted LO/28/9L.
Residential PUD standards to PCon 1O/3. Future neetingsrequired.
1991/ongoing
l-99114.
PC input in Do$rntown
PJ,anning and Traffic Study
Review of Architectural
Standards to Promote High
Quality Design
L5.Bluff Creek Corri.dor
Greenway
16. * Modifications to beachlotordinance - Re: Non-conforming beachlots
17. * Ordinance amendnent to
Non-conf orning use sectionto clarify ordinance.
18. * ordinance amendnentregarding liguor stores in
BN District.
* Change in status since lastreport
First meeting held forinformational purposes. To bescheduled on upconing agendas.
With adoption of BIuffPreservation ordinance,referred itern to ParkRecreation Cornmission.
PC review lt/ 6/9t.
Final reading on tt/ LB/ 9L.
Line
cc
and
11. * Landscaping standards
12 . 't PUD Ordinance
13.
4
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER OBIVE ' PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(512) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
ITfEIiIORANDIIM
TO:
FRO}I:
DATE:
SUBI:
Don Ashworth, City llanager
PauI xrauss, Planning Director
October 7, L99l
1992 Planning DepartDent coals and Budget Requests
In fornulating the Planning Departnentrs budget for 1992, I believeit is first necessary to exarnine departnental goals that havetentatively been set. In so doing, I put these goals out for
discussion purposes, fuIly expecting that they wiJ.1 be roodified, orat least input will be gained from both the Planning Comnission andcertainly by the City council. In establishing 1992 goals, Ibelieve it would be useful to re-exanine the 199L goals to see if
lre have made progress. The following constitutes this review.
1. Conplete the conprehensive Plan approval process by gainingits adoption by the Chanhassen City Council and by theMetropolitan Council . Begin plan inplenentation.
The plan was adopted by the t{etropolitan Council in Uay ofthis year and is currently in use. Final printing of the planstill has to be undertaken, but this is in progress as wespeak. ApprovaL of this plan represented the culroination ofyears of effort, starting back in 1987. While approval of theplan was a major achievenent, it is resulting in further worksuch as the Highway 5 Corridor Study, South Study AreaPlanning Effort, Cornprehensive Selrer and Water . planningeffort, and related natters.
Initiate work related to the Surface Water Managenent Plan.
As the Council is aware, Bonestroo and Associates rras selectedafter a long review process to work $/ith the city on thiseffort. Work has begun and the task force is meeting on aregular basis. It is expected that 1992 wiLl see significant
achievenrents in this area.
2
tvDl.tI?PRINTED ON RECrcLEO PA9ER
This effort has succeeded beyond what could have beenanticipated the start of last year. The Senior .Conmission hasbeen established and is dealing on an intensive basis nithsenior issues. Their work is on the verge of resulting in theestablishnent of a Chanhassen Senior Center in the lower leve1of City Hatl and nunerous other programs are in the talkingstages .
4. Conputerized planning Department Functions.
Continue to Respond tothe Zoning Ordinance.
Needs to Upgrade, Revise and Improve
Planning Departnent 1992 coalsOctober 7, l99L
Page 2
3. Establish the Chanhassen Senior Conrnissionsenior issues.and begin work on
Continue the cityis active involvement in transportationLssues.
As the Council j.s aware, staff has been able to utilize theSurface Water Managenent progran, the Highlray 5 CorridorStudy, and funding available through the Carver CountySurveyor. to. begin creating the foundation for establishing ageographic information systen for the city. This is a najorpioneering effort that will yietd a large amount of benefit-inthe corning. years. In other respects, achieving goals forconputerizing day-to-day departrdental functions hls had to beput on hold until netlrork and eguipnent requirernents have beenresolved. These are in the process of being dealt with on acity wide basis at this time and we expect to makeconsiderable progress in the corning year.
5
The City nade tremendous advances in this area. The number ofchanges to the ordinance are too nunerous to nention, butinclude significant revisions to site plan review procealres,landscaping, bluff line protection and the pUD ordilnances. I;realityi however, our Zoning ordinance cannot be allowed tobecome static. It should be revised on a continuing basis asneeded to keep it current and al]os, it to deal with jituations
that nay arise.
6
!'lorking in_ conjunction with the Engineering Department and theHRA, considerable progress has been Dade to;ards gaining afull understanding of downtown traffic issues and d-evelopinga plan to resolve then. The firrn of Strgar, Roscoe, fauscihas been .intirnately involved in this efftrt. the ilanninjDepartment conti-nues to support the efforts of southwest I'Ietr6Transit who also provides input on Hwy. 5 and Hwy. 2L2 issues.
6
Planning Department 1992 Goals
October 7, L99l
Page 3
7. Continue to refine and irnprove our city's necycling Program.
In 1991, the Cityrs Recycling Program provided curbside
recycling for all residential properties within the city. The
Recycling Cornnission has nanaged it on a conpetent and reason
basis and has also been able to sponsor special prograns such
as the compost site in Bandinere Park. The Curbside Recycling
Program represents a considerabLe inprovenent over pastefforts which required significant out-of-pocket city funding
and did not provide service on as frequent of basis as iscurrently now the case.
continue to refine and inprove city procedures relative todevelopnent. Strive to maintain and inprove chanhassenrs
inages as a progress comnunity that sets high standards fordeveloprnent. Maintain good working relationships lrith
developers and brokers and ensure that the resident concerns
are heard in a review process.
This goal is an ongoing one and we must be sure that the
Planning Departnent never forgets the need to strive in thesedirections. In 1991, new developments were required to postcity sponsored development signs to inprove notification ofresidents. we have also inproved our fee structure to place
a greater burden for paying for review procedures on to theapplicant, rather than the general tax payer. Lastly, we have
revised our plat filing procedure so that all filing is done
under the auspices of the city Attorney. This procedure
eliminates the -confusions and problems that existed when thecity depended upon the applicants to file the plats and
easenents .
The following constitutes preliminary departmental goals for 1.992.
As a condition of approval of the comprehensive Plan, staff
and the Planning Commission were directed to embark upon
undertaking studies to develop land use plans for the two
designated study areas. The North Study Area along Hwy. 5 is
developed into a desire to undertake a corridor study programthat would run fron one end of town to the other. At the tineof writing, this program has relied upon the involvenent of
the University of Minnesotars Urban Design Center. Howeveri
a task force rneeting will be called shortly to provide further
1992 GOALS
1. organize and conplete Hwy. 5 Corridor Study and the relatedproject of developing a land use plan for the south study
Area.
Planning Department 1992 coalsOctober 7, !991
Page 4
direction in this area. It is likely that a significant workeffort for Planning Departnent staff could resrilt.
Similarly, staff and the pl,anning coromission were directed toprovide a land use study for the South Study Area locatedsouth of Lyman BouLevard. We expect these eff5rts to proceedon a para11e1 basis to the Hwy. 5 Corridor Study, althoughthey vor'^Id_ litfely have a lower priority due to-'tne far{eanount of developnent pressure that is being felt along Hwi.E
Surface Water llanagenent program.
Now that this program is up and running and a consultant hasbeen selected, a considerable lrork eifort witl take p1i-eduring 1992. The ptan is not scheduled to be co:npletea foi feto 24 months,' hor^rever, one of the primary goals- is to get -a
revised I'{etrand ordinance and of f iciar uap ii prac- as L"'on-u.possible. f believe this effort can be complei,ed during L992.As an additional goal, we want to estabtish the need to createa very strong public relations and infornation effortregarding the progran and about what indiviauaf resiaeniscould do to protect water quality.
Senior Cornrnission/Senior center.
The r0ajor goal for the Senior Cornrnission in 1992 is tocomplete the design and construction of the senior center anato de-velop its operations and programs i.n a nanner tiriiprovides the highest level of serv-ice- for our resi.dents at ttreleast possible cost. Bringing these efforts to fruition wil.1take a large anount.of- effort, not only on the part of thesenior cornmission but also in terms ot i ioint "tfo.I r.lr"."the Planning and park Departnent staff since we wiit i;i;ai;be responsible for a lot of this effort. Ultinateiy,-r. ..!responsibility for Senior center operations bei;t p;;!ea-";;;to the Park and Recreation Departndnt since they f,a-ve trre nosiexpertise in these sorts of operations. aaaitionalf V, lireylrould coordinate the efforts of Senior connunity S.r"il." iiterms of providing senior services fron this raiiiiiy. --- -"
conputerize Department Functions.
with the establishment of a fundamental crs data base and withthe completion of the computer network in Citv-nirJ; i;;;offers a great amount bf -potential for 6".!"t"'riri"tdepartment functions. At thi; point, we are not exactlfcertain as to which directions theie will take; howev"r, ,"-alknow that they shouLd be designed to promote effective
3
4
2.
6
Planning Department 1992 Goals
October 7, 1997
Page 5
coordination betrreen departtnents on related natters, while
inproving staff efficiency.
5. Continue Recycling Efforts.
In 1992, the city's basic curbside recycling prograrn wiJ.l
reDain a fixture; holrever, a goal should be established to
expand the range of rnaterials that can be collected. Effortsto coordinate and expand conmercial recycling and nulti-fanily
recycling opportunities should be conpleted during 1992. workshould proceed on a pernanent location of a yard
waste/conposting facility either in conjunction with carver
county, which is preferable, or with the city going it aloneif necessary.
continue to respond to needs to upgrade, revise and inprove
the zoning ordinance.
As we have noted in past years, this is a continuing effort
and, if s/e are doing our jobs, it wil,1 virtually never beconpleted. The Zoning ordinance should be subject to
continuing scrutiny and improvenents as we are made aware of
the need. During L991, the Planning Comrnission had discussedrefining the architectural review standards of the site plan
review ordinance. I,Ie would also like to see culmination to
the cornbined ordinance and planning efforts at addressing the
Business Fringe District. This effort has been outlined in
the Conprehensive Plan and there has been a long standing goal
of the Planning Cornnission to clean up the area along Hwy.
L69/2]-2. one of the najor efforts of the departnent in 1992,will be undertaking the drafting of a new sign ordinance in
conjunction with the sign ordinance task force. At this tine,
the task force has been established and the first neeting is
inninent.
continue to refine and improve City procedures relative to
development. Strive to naintain and inprove Chanhassents
image as a progress community that sets high standards fordevelopment. lilaintain good working relationships rrith
developers and brokers and ensure that the residents concerns
are heard in a review process.
This again j.s an ongoing goal and we need to continue to
reaffirm our desire to strive in this direction. we. are not
sure what particular efforts will occur tor^rards this end in
1992i horrever, Planning Departnent staff has spent a fair
amount of time becoming nore visible and accessibLe to the
development comnunity. For exarnple, rre are represented on the
Sensible Land Use Coalition and I have been appointed to serve
on their Legislative Connittee. Additionally, I an the vice-
7.
I
Planning Departnent 1992 GoalsOctober 7, L99l
Page 6
President of the Uinnesota Chapter of the American planning
Association and both I and Jo Ann Olsen have been asked t5speak in a variety of forums on different aspects of thecityrs planning progran.
Inprove conpliance procedures and conputerize where effective.
Planning Department staff is now sufficient to undertakeactive efforts on code conpliance. One of the areas that thiswill occur is the. prograrn that has been authorizea Uy ttr-Planning Comnission and City Council to deal withnonconforning beachlots. This work effort will. start in late1991 but be conpleted in 1992. Other nonconforning uses andstructures need to be docunented so that they can be nonitored
9l a continuing basis. Staff has been in continuingdiscussions urith the .public safety Department regardinicoordinating and inproving our responie to tomplaints tirat ii6received. The Public Safety Depirtnent has always aone inadnirabte job in responding- to tonplaints in reclnt y.ur.;however, we lrant to inprove the plan;ing Departnent,s aii1iiyto respond to planning retated issue! since we .re nor3involved and often moie knowledgeable in these p..E""iiiareas .
The_Planning Departnent salaries are distributed over a number offunding areas incruding HRA/Recycling/surface water utirity anatrelated programs. Thus, the totil saiary and benefit cosi i. notfound in Department Fund 152.- rn generil , we are not i-tuestingincreases in any of the 152 funds 6xcept ior inflatiorr, ,'iit o.,.exception- During 1991, Jo Ann orsen vis authorizea io tnin!" rr"remploynent status fron fulr-tirne 5 days per rreek to pernanent-part-tine.at 4 days per week. This was doni ror persorial i"".o"= ."adue to Jo Annrs longevity with the city ani her inportince todepartnent and city functions, we strove to accoirrrodate herrequest.
Planning Department work loads are continuing to grow due toongoing commitments with existing and proposed- special planningefforts, and due to our expectatibns tnit ls the ^recessiin easesand noq, that the MUSA line has been relocated, oui currentdevelopment vrork toad will be increasing rapidly 'ovei the nextyear- There are a variety of special proj6cts -outiiae ot the rearmof normal planning functj.ons tnd stuaie; that are handled by thePlanning Department. These include:
1992 BUDGET REOUESTS
Departnent Fund 101-152./planninq Adninistration
Planning Departnent 1992 coals
October 7, l99L
Page 7
Staff support for the Senior conmission;Staff support for the HRA;
Highway 5 corridor study,
Surface Water Managenent Progran i
Southwest Coal ition;
wetlands Forun, senator Durenbergerts wetland conmittee,input into State L€gislation;
Southwest lletro Transit
Recycling connittee and Program
lilinnesota River water Quality Task Force.
The City l{anager and I deternined that we need to respond tostaffing requirements in a positive nanner. As a result, rre
brought Kate Aanenson on board on a perDanent part-tine 3 day per
week basis. Her salary is corning fron several areas including
savings accrued with Jo Annrs going on a 4 day per lreek status,
funds derived from the Surface water Utility Program and a fe!,
other areas. Kate has proven to be an valuable enployee who isable to take highly responsible work efforts on her own. For
exarnple, the effort to direct the creation of a new sign ordinanceis her responsibility. In view of Jo Annrs pregnancy, her recenthospitalization due to same, and expected roaternity leave in the
spring and summer of ).992, rre have increased Katets tine to a 4 dayper week permanent part-time status sirnilar to Jo Annrs. As I
noted above, Kate has proven to be an excellent enployee and I
would like to be in a position to naintain her on a permanent 4 day
per week status into the future without limitation. Thus, the only
increase that I am requesting is to have her position permanently
funded in this manner.
Last year the Recycling Prograrr was funded at a reduced level due
to the switch to a hauler based prograrn. This represented a
considerable savings from the alnost $50,000 that had been expended
in prj.or years to rnaintain city sponsored curbside recycling. The
current funding effort is sufficient to continue the Recyclinq
committeers educational prograrns and to sponsor special efforts
such as the compost recycling site at Bandirnere Park. No
additional funds are requested.
Surface Water Uti-l itv Program
The Surface water Utility Program is a joint effort of the Planning
and Engineering Departnents. As the Council is aware, it is
generating funds through the irnposition of a surface $rater util,ity
Department Fund 1,01-151,/Pfanninq Commission
No increases are being requested in this area.
Department 231,/Recvclino - Fund 2l1lEnvironmental Protection
Planning Departnent 1992 coals
October 7. l99L
Page 8
charge and this program is largely self-supporting without reLianceon general fund revenues. However, also as the Council is aware,this program rras funded at a level that was eguivalent to 60g ofthe_ orj'ginal staff proposal . As we indicated- at the time, thatwould have been fine to get the progran off and running; however,as indicated in the attached nenoiandun fron SEH, we are generatingsornething on the order of 5ot of even our reduced exp6ctationsithus, we are getting 6ot of 6ot. Funds ti1I be availab-le to carrytl"r,rough on our first phase comrnitments for this progran and it i-sdifficult at this tine to get a handre on future Lxp6nditures thatr{ould need to be authorized by the city councii in any case.However, as _the progran noves from a planning stage iito theprogram comrnitment stage uhere actual projects a-re coisidered, webelieve that increased funding revels nly ue required. Therefore,I9.-afe not proposing any increase in the curient Surface waterutility fee but wourd like the council to understand that we nay infact have to be in a position to do this in 1993.
Sen iors
Last year, staff nade a request that the Council allocate g3,OOOfor operations and sorne progranming for the Senior Connission.Although the council'!s response appeared to be favorable on thisrequest, in fact no funds were appropriated in the final budget.until the present time, nost of t-hL funding for senior cornrnissionactivities has come out of CDBG Block Grant. funds, hotever, thereare nunerous strings attached to these funds and our ability to usethem is creatively as highly restricted by progran requiienents.we expect to be able to continue to rely on cDBe funds for seniorprojects at sone level into the futurl but believe that it isimportant for the city council to estabrish sorne uasic-,- arbeitninor, funding lever for senior activities particularly in'riqnt oey!:gm1nS -opening of the senior center. S-ince only i lorti'on orCDBG funds can be used on progran expenditures, we- can foresee atine that city funding wirr be needei to through into the pot tomake th_e program effective and rneaningful . We are theieforerequesting that the city council auth6rize the creation of a
fy"9ilS - category for the Senior comni.ssion and that . tot"f ot$8,000 be allocated, These funds would be used not only tosubsidize the efforts of the senior cornmission itself i" t"rr. "tminutes, postage, surveys and related efforts, rut wouia -iiso reused to underwrite a portion of the senior prograrnning that cannotbe covered by CDBG funds.
MEI,TORANDIJ}.{
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBT:
Don Ashlrorth, City li{anager
PauL Krauss, Planning Director
December 17, 1990
1991 coals for the Planning Department
In forrnulating the Planning Department I s goals for 1991, I
conducted a review of goals that we had established in 1990.
following constitutes a review of these goals.
first
The
1 conplete the conprehensive P1an, hearing process and subnittalto the Metropolitan council for review.
Work on the conprehensive Plan involved an extraordinary
amount of tine on the part of staff and the Planning
commission. The tine was spent not only in drafting of theplan, but in an extensive round of neetings with individua).s,
developers and neighborhood groups that culninated in thefinal public hearing that was held in early Novenber, 1990.
As you are aware, the plan is going to be presented to theCity Council on January 7, l99L and it is our expectation thatit would be forwarded to the Metropolitan Council shortlythereafter. work on the plan took somewhat longer than we had
anticipated, largely due to the tine required to obtain public
input. However, I believe that the document is a good one
and, perhaps nore inportantly, it appears to have been
accepted by the nany individuals who have been involved in the
planning process.
Embark on a coordinated wetlands protection program.
Staff set this goal in 1990 recognizing the need to irnprove
our wetlands protection efforts. During the course of theyear, two significant factors occurred. The first lras that it
becane clear that water quality is a grolring issue for our
cornnunity. Not only do we lrant to maintain water quality forour residents, but it has become a primary issue for the
Metropolitan Council and other state agencies. The second was
2
llr. Don Asht orth
Decenber 17, L99O
Page 2
that there would be benefits accruing if the storrn watermanagement elenents being considered by the EngineeringDepartment could be coordinated with the wetlands ind wateiguality prograns that rrere being discussed by the planningDepartnent. Throughout the course of L99O; planning andEngineering Departnent staff worked together io forroulaie anapproach to these issues. This approach culninated in theproposal and adoption of the surface uater utility district.
We believe that this district represents a highly innovativeand cost effective neans of approaching this issue that triI1put chanhassen in the forefront of environnental and waterguality protection. I have also interacted extensi"ify "iitthe Uetropolitan council, . the DNR, pCA and other aginciesrelative to water. quality issues stenning fron probleis withthe Minnesota River. This has culni-nated ^in ny b;i;tappointed to a ltetropolitan Council Task Force d"=iin;d -[;
investigate water quality issues in the uinnesotj niveiwatershed and develop a conprehensive plan for inproving theaquatic environnent.- t beiieve that tfri, ,o.f li"= "-; ih;stage for sone conplex, but nevertheless exciting andwarranted work in 1991 and 1992.
Continue to respond to needs tothe zoning ordinance.upgrade, revise and inprove
During 1990, staff developed a nunber of new ordinances thathave been reviewed by the planning Cornrnission, Aoara oiAdjustmelts and Appeals and City couricil, nost of rhich havebeen refined and adopted and are currentiy in effect. Ailr;the nore .significant ordinance amendnrLnts include: ;comprehensive redraft of the city's parking requirenents, icornprehensive redraft of the city.s slte plin rEview with'anemphasis on -improved guality of d-velopment, a n", qr"ai"t-anJmining ordinance drafted- in _ conju-nction ,itt --Ufr" --'ciIV
Attorney, the interirn use permit oidinance designed to aeaiLrith uses of a temporary nature, an ordinan"l ur."a.."[dealing with provision of Jccess to lots by private ariverivs,and a new approach to_ reviewing variancej inat is b"a; ;;;;neighborhood standards. tn fJct, over the course of rs'go.much of the ci-ty.s approach towards variance proc"aures - tra!been revi.sed rrith the result that the planning'C"rri;;1;; ;;;city council now review and approve varianc-es ;;;.d;-I;development proposals and- the Soird of Adjustnents ana appLaisconsiders variances deal.ing prirnarily -wittr singi; -';ilii;
homes. we have also inproved internil procedur6s for thlreview and tracking of development proposals.
4 Complete therecycl ing .
The changeover was completed in Aprilto be highly successful . Most of the
of 1990 and has provencredit for the strong
3.
changeover to hauler sponsored curbside
l,!r. Don Ashworth
Decenber 17, 199 0
Page 3
5.
staff support the Recycling Conmission has given should go to
Jo Ann olsen and Shamin A1-Jaff. Participation in recycling
continues to inprove while direct city costs for sponsoringrecycling have significantly decreased as a result of the useof hauler based recycling collection.
Continue to reorganize prograns and procedures to inprovecoordination uith Public Safety, Engineering and Park and
Recreation.
Staff has spent considerable tine undertaking tasks relatingto this goal . I believe we have establ.ished an excellent
working relationship rrith staff of both departments. One areathis is nade evident is the strong coordination between the
Engineering and Planning Departnents in enforcing the newgrading and nining ordinance.
Continue to be responsive to the needs of the City Council,
Planning Conmission, Housing and Redevelopnent Authority and
Board of Adjustnrents and Appea1s.
I believe that this goal has been reached and will continue tostrive to do so. A nunber of neri, initiatives have beenoriginated by these bodies and have been follorred up by ourstaff and I hope that there is a high level of satisfactionthat staff has been responsive to these concerns.
6
7 Initiate computer.i.zation of departnental functions
incremental basis.
on an
Although we have received hardware in 1990, the need to
coordinate acquisition of softlrare and networking capabilities
required to inplenent this goal have lagged. Yle are looking
forward to working with the Data Processing Coordinator during
1991 to undertake this irnportant nork and inprove utilizationof staff and equipment.
Adopt amendments to shoreLand and floodplain ordinances in
response to new DNR regulations.
Staff has prepared a revised floodplain ordinance and hasrecently discussed it with the Planning Conmission. we expectto bring it to the PLanning Cornmission and city council forformal adoption in January, 1991. The DNR shorelandregulations have proven soneuhat nore involved than originallyanticipated. The DNR has not yet set a date for Chanhassen to
cornplete their updates, although ne believe this procedure isinminent. The shoreland ordinance is sonewhat more involved
and affects a nunber of properties in our corununity. we lrouldIike to rrork with DNR to obtain substantial changes in the
l,lr. Don Ashworth
December L7, L99O
Page 4
existing ordinancepattern.that reflect Chanhassents development
The
1.
2.
3.
following are the 1991 goals for the planning Department.
lomplete th€ conprehens j.ve plan approval process by gaining
_i-t
I s ado.ption by .the Chanhassen - City C6uncil a"l -Uy tfrilletropolitan council. Begin plan inplenentation.
Work on the plan is now drawing to a close and it is expected
-that the. city council will authorize sending it 6 thelletropolitan Council- in January. We have alwafs naintainedthat . the- !,[etropolitan counCil approval piocess couldconceivably ,be as difficult as the- plan d6velopnent wisinternally since there are a number of technicaf ana^poiiticifvariables that nay crop up. I have spent an vast inount oftine. over the last 1l years worklng extensively wiitrMetropolitan councir staff to uncover any problerns bef6rehindand hopefully work them out, but it is diificutt to say witnany certainty that this is in fact the case.
As a foLLow-up work effort, the planning Cornrnis5i6n hasconnitted to undertaking an analysis of the iwo 'rstudy ur"iridesignated by the plan. These studies wi1l essentialiy Uenini conprehensive planning efforts. We are not certai-n iftine wilL allow starting ttris program in 1991, but the workwill need to be initiated in ]-,ggZ -at the latest.
rnitiate work rerated to the surface water t{anagenent progran.
Staff has_ been ve:y active in developing the cityls surfacewater_utiLity grdinance and prograu. -xof that we ir".,e g"iie"over.that hurdle, Rfps need to be developed and consuitantsretained so that we nay undertake the planiine portio; oi-[hi=work. ft is envisioned that an RFp vitf Ue- cieveloped anJ iconsultant sel.ected dur.ing the first quarter -"t 1991.Although further discussi-on is reguired, it is likAy-ih;isubcomnittees or task forces nay need to be a="'arlfaacomprised of city council, flannin-g Conmission .nd-;;G;;irepresentatives to undertake and conplete these studies. thisis viewed as an extensive work etroit that will .";-t p..;-;tIeast-the next two yegsl with implenentation U"gi;i-rf i;th"second year and following yeari. staff has -connii,ted a;giving qhg city Council - alnnual reports on pro!.er. - arrJopportunities to review annuar nork piograns to 3olicit theiiinput .
Establish the Chanhassen Senior Coumission and begin work onsenior issues.
Mr. Don Ashworth
Decenber l'l , l99O
Page 5
In 1990, staff contracted and completed rrork on the CDBG
funded senior needs study. As a result of this study, theCity Council created the Chanhassen Senior Conmission in
NoveDber, 1990. During 1991, it is staffrs goal to establishthis connission as a functioning entity, develop an agenda and
undertake work related to senior needs in our community.Exactly rrhat focus this will take is uncertain at this pointin tine.
4. Improve code enforcement on zoning related issues.
In the past, code enforcenent relative to zoning code related
issues has been difficult to undertake due to excessive work
1oads, prior staff commitnents and the fact that there were
simply too many other brush fires to put out. Pubtic Safetystaff has attenpted to fill this void in part with nixedresults. The process whereby Planning staff often workingwith Engineering staff spends months working on an issue onlyto then transfer it to another department for enforcenent hasproven to be unwieldy and difficult to undertake. we findthat the process and not the individuals involved hasoccasionally resulted in rrthe ball being droppedrr or erratic
enforcement procedures. Therefore, I have discussed thisnatter rrith the Public Safety Director and the City Uanager
and lrould anticipate setting up a procedure uhereby the publicsafety system of nonitoring conplaints is adhered to foradninistrative purposes, but that Planning staff becornesdirectly responsible in aII stages of code enforcernentrelative to issues pertaining to our departnent.
Conputerize Planning Departrnent functions.
Staff continues to have a goal of courputerizing staff
departnent functions to promote efficiency and better use ofresources. Our ability to do this is sonewhat hanpered by the
need to coordinate these prograns effectively with other
departnents and with the cityrs Data Processing Coordinator.There is also a cost involved that may be significant,
however, this is not clear at this point since nu'ch of the
hardware already exists. Staff will continue to push for
computerization of property records and other eLenents of useto departrnental functions.
Continue to respond to needs to upgrade, revise and improvethe Zoning Ordinance.
This is an on-going goal that I an sure rriIl not be eliminatedin the near future. The Planning Conrnission has establ,ishedan on-going issues list that I have attached as back up tothis memo. Itens that they have asked us to undertake in 1990
5.
6.
!!r. Don Ashr{rorlh
Decenber 17, L990
Page 5
inclYde: 1) researching rurat area zoning standards includingpossibly lowering lot sizes to one acre; 21 wetlands ordinancEredrafting in conjunction with the surface water utility; 3)shoreland ordinance i 4) review 1egislation and possibleordinance anendments pertaining to group hones; Sf reviewordinances pertaining to the BF distriat which occurs ontlighrray 159 near the llinnesota River. The planning Conmissionis considering revising or eliroinating this 6istrict toprotect the sensitive environmental features of this area.Work on this progran was initiated under the comprehensiveplan review progran.
Staff would like to initiate a coDprehensive redraft of thecityrs PUD ordinance. We believe that the current pUD
ordinance provides frankLy too much latitude for developersand not enough standards or guarantees for the connunity.
continue the city's active involvenent in transportation
]'SSUeS.
(,
The Planning Department provides staff support for southr{estUetro Transit. We expect to continue to do this in 1991, butdo not envision any significant additional workloads in thisarea . We would f ike to rrork rrith Southrrest Irletro to inprovepark and ride facilities i.n our comnunity.
Planning .and Engineering staff have been working vith aconsultant to undertake a review of dorrntor{rn translortationissues. we expect to cornplete this report :.n .1ggf inaundertake an. - inplenentation progran th;t is phased inaccordance with its reconnendationa.
Staff worked with Carver County and other communities on theEastern Carver County Transportation Study. This work hasbeen coropleted in 1990i holrever, there is a need to continuethe transportation focus and respond to issues that becaneknown and understood during the study. Staff rri]l be workingrrith the.county Engineer and other neighboring conmunitils oithese matters in 1991.
Continue to refine and inprove our city recycling progran.
The Recycling Commiss-ion has reached a point where they are i.nneed of reneual and focus. During 1990, the co:nmitteeundertook substantial rrork and acconplished a lot rrith theswitch over to hauler based recycling-. In 1991, there is aneed to focus on the recycling oi additional naterialsincluding.plastics and s-preading ihe benefits "i ;""t;ii;;-a;nulti-farnily housing and connertial properties.
!lr. Don Ashlrorth
Decenber 17, 1990
Page 7
9. continue to refine and inprove city procedures relative todevelopment. Strive to naintain and inprove Chanhassen r sinage as a progressive cornmunity that sets high standards fordevel,opnent. llaintain good working retationships with
developers and brokers and ensure that residentrs concerns are
heard in the review process.
In 1990, staff proposed and had approved an ordinancerequiring the posting of notification signs on sitesundergoing review for development. This was done to inprove
conmunication with area residents as to what the city wasreviewing. Staff is on the verge of acguiring these signs andwill undertake the establishment of a progran for their use by
developers in 1991.
The City Council has asked staff to undertake an analysis of
the potential of charging developers for staff tine undertakenin review of their developnent application. I have developeda questionnaire which has been nailed to a nunber of area
conrnunities to find out their policies in this area. I expectto be able to cone before the City Council with a
reconmendation to investigate the adoption of these fees in1991. fn a related natter, it is also necessary that the cityreview and update the fee structure for all planning relatedactivities .
I have noted a problen in the fiting of plats, conditions of
approval , variances, wetland alteration perurits and relatedmatters at Can/er County. Our procedures to this pointgenerally place full reliance on filing of the appropriate
documentation by the applicant. This has resulted in tack ofcity control of many of these aspects and a lack ofcoordination where easements and other requirernents that uere
intended to be filed against the property ultirnately were not.
DIost communities assume responsibil ities for filing of these
docurnents to ensure conplete control over this aspect of thereview procedure. Staff has spoken to the city councilregarding this issue in the past and in 1991 expects toestablish a procedure rrrhereby the City Attorneyrs office vill
be held responsible for these activities. The City Attorney'stirne to undertake these procedures will be billed back to theapplicants in the forn of a revised fee structure.
=5eHE'{GIXEERS ' A?CHITEC7s ' PLA'II'EFS
June 17, 1991
3535 VADNAS CEMEP OPME, 5I AUI. MINNE$JTA 55110 612 4*2M
RE:CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA
SURFACE WATER MANAGEMENT
UTILITY
CITY PROJECT NO. PW 207
SEH FILE 90284.OI
5 5317
As requested, $re have investJ.gated why the SurfaceManagement Utility revenues are faLling below ourprojections. The fottowing summarizes whaf we found:
Dear Paul:
Waterinitial
.,,+ll/uJ.B
'gglWE
C ITY OF CHANt..iAsSEN
Mr. Paul Kraus, AICP
D j.rector of PlannlngCity of Chanhassen
59O Coulter Dri ve
Chanhassen, Mi.nnesota
1. The-utility concept and utirity ordinance were based on nineland use ct assifications: Rural Resldentlal (2_t/2 acrelots), Single-FamiIy Residentiat (1/3 acre Lots), Ufxed Lowand Medium Denslty Residentiat, Apartments/industriat_office/Instltutions, Business CommertLaL, airlcuiturar,Undeveloped, parks/Cemeteries/Golf Courses, ArLoretum anclParking Lots.
2. Initial quarterly fees hrere based on an estlmated five_yearprogram cost of SL,Z34, OO0, or SA6,ZOO per quarter.
3' ouarterly fees presented durlng publlc lnformation meetlngsand the public hearing, incruafng the base rate of STS.ZOper acre for a utillty factor of 1, or a per lot cost of55.18 for sj.ngle-famity resldentiaL -
4. Th" ordlnance, as prepared for the Councll meeting onAugust 27, r99o, lncruded utlllty factorE for each tano usetype, wh1ch, ,hgl multlplJ.ed Uy 1ne base rate ot Sf-.iO peracre, provided the rates for each land use type.
5. At the request of cary Warren, former C1ty Englneer/Directorof Public Works, $re modified the revenue -projections in twoways. First, $re varled the total reven,je required byapplying a reducti,on factor - 6OE - to the five_yea! i"rr".,rr"estimate, i.e., rather than bringing in 51,234,060 or"i ri.r"years or 586,700 pet quarter, the utility wouid be baseCl onS1,04O,400 over five years, or S52,O2O pe-r quartei. ---'
F.ECE'VED
Mr. PauI
June 17,
Page 2
Kraus
19 91
Secondly, charges for Agrlcultural and Undevetoped parcels,1nltl.ally set at S0.SOlacre and resultlng ln about flvepercent of the total revenue, $rere changed to have the sameper "1ot" cost as alngle-famlly resldentl.al, essumlng one"tot" is equal to 40 acres. The effect of this change wasto reduce the total contribution of undeveloped andagricultural propertles to about 1.3 percent of the totalrequired revenue. These same properties accouDt for about63 percent of the tand ln Chanhassen, generatlng alnost 15percent of the total runoff.
In preparing the amended revenue proJectlons, we volced ourconcerns regardlng the amendment of lndividual charges,$rhich would create an arhitrary basis for the utilltv (see
attached ) .
In recent
underst and
discussions r.rlth Tom Chaffee of your staff,that further amendment5 have been made:
we
o
A separate charge for rural residential has beeneliminated in lleu of a single "household" charge.
Based on utility estlnates, there were 1,297 acres ofrural resldential parcels at 2-L/2 acres each, or about519 individual parcels. By reducing the per lot costfrom 55.O6 lo 53.22, the utility is short almost S4,OOOannual ly .
SingIe-FamlLy Residential
Townhomes
Apartments & Industrlal
Comlllercl a 1
30-38t impervlous65t impervlous
72* impervlous85t tmoerwlorrs
To account for lnequitj,es ln the assumptions, theordLnance includes a provislon by rrhlch a property
or.rner could have a rate reviewed. However, rather thanre1yLng on the ordlnance procedure, parc€1s $rereapparently treat€d lndivl.dual1y as follosrs: A LZ9-acre, commercielly zoned property ls not ful1ydeveloped. About 16 acres ar€ measured as impervlous.The undeveloped area is charged as singLe-familyresidential; the devetoped portion ls charged at thecommercial rate. In summary, where Lnittal proJections
assumed 129 acres X S32.24/acre = S4,159/quarter, thesame property is now being charged 16 acres x$32.24/acre + 53.22 = S51g,/quarter, or only
6.
Large commercial propertLes were treated indlvlduallyto determine percent impervlous and percentundeveloped. Prior to this change, all properties vrerebased on an assumed impervious percentage based on SCScriteria as fol lows:
Mr. PauL
June 17,
Page 3
MLL:1lc
Enc ]-osure
Kraus
1991
12.5 percent of lnltialproperty change results in
S14,56O/year.
proJectlon. Thls singlea total revenue shortfall 0f
o Cl-ty (developed) parcels have not yet been charged.
while the amended changes certalnly ere feir, lt rrould have beenlmposslbLe for us to- predict dlscrLpancies on lndlvlduar parcerswithout go-lng through a- parcel-by-pircet anaty6l6 as was ione byDave Hemple and Tom Chaffee. Our proJectitns were based oicurrent zonlng and exlstl.ng developmLnt baeed on 19g9 aerl.alphotographs.
PauL. we aDolocize for anv Lneontenlences that the shortfall mavhave caused. However, even though the biIled .er..rrE i;
9tl.9l!1y lagging behind the projected revenue by aboutS15, OOo/quarter, future devetopment oi undevetoped parcils wit:.quickly nake up the difference. For example, an und;veloped 4O_acre parcel currently generates only S3.22/quarter. Whendeveloped into singre-farniry l.ots, that same -40 acres w1Irgenerate S386/quarter, representing a 120 percent incrlise inrevenue. Similarly, a 4o-acre parcel devefoped lnto colrmerclalproperty wiII go from 53.22/quarier to about S-f ,2SO7qrr..ter, or a4O0 percent increase. Development of a fuII s6cti6n (640 acres)1/2 residentiar-L/2 commerclir should make up the difteience.Additionarry, as busine_sses expand, 1lke th; fZ9_acie -parcer
example, a larger total fee will be collected.
With_ as many individual changes made to the fee structure, Irnig.ht caution you to determind if current charges are conslstentwith the language of the ordinance. I have only an early copy ofthe ordinance. I r.rould be happy to revi.ew the idopted v3rsion todetermine if current ratJ - policy and the ordinance areconsistent. If you have any furthe-r questions, please contactme.
S lncerelv
CharLes Fulch
Tom Chaffee
Dave Hemple
'----/'1d^4-.
Mark L. Lobermeier, p. E.ProJect Manager
CH[NH[SSEN
MEMORANDU},I
TO:
FROM:
DATE !
SUR]:
PLanning Cornmission
xate Aanenson, Planner II
october 31, 1991
NonConforning Recreational Beachlots
?>).4!,PBINTED ON BECrcLED PAPER
a
CITY OF
690 COULTER DRIVE ' PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
on Monday, october L4, 1991, Jo Ann Olsen and I net with
representatives of the honeowners of the Recreational Beachlots.
There are 13 beachlots that were grandfathered in with the adoptionof the Recreational Beachlot ordinance and are now lega1
nonconforming uses.
The purpose of the neeting was to review with each association what
inforrnation the city has regarding the amount of use for each
nonconforming beachlot. The neeting also provided the staff an
opportunity to review the procedures that city trilI be taking. Thecity will be reviewing whether or not to require a nonconforrning
use perrnit for all legal nonconforning recreational beachlots. Thepubtic hearing for this ordinance will be held in front of the
Planning conrnission on November 20, L99L. If this ordinance is
passed, the City will then process the lega1 nonconforning usepennits. This process will proceed until all beachlots have had
public hearings before the Planning Cornrnission and the city council
has made a final decision.
The city r./i11, based on our best infornation, state what we feel
the association had in place at the tiue the ordinance was adopted.
A nonconforning use perrnit wiLl be issued following the receiPt of
satisfactory proof concerning the nature and extent of the legal
nonconforming use. The pennit shalL describe the nature and extentof the allo\^red use. The permit riII also provide a basis from
which the use may or may be expanded or intensified.
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937'5739
CITY OF
CH[NH[SEEN
UEIIIOR,ANDT.IU
To: uoon valley Litigation File
FRoU: Paul Krauss, Planning Director
DATE: october 10, 1991
su&r: lloon valIey Pernit Application
?AL
The uoon vatley pernit application that was rejected by staff
contained two alternative developnent P1ans. The first plan
essentially indicates digging a 160 ft. crater across the site,
rrhife the alternative plan would naintain sone of the bluff line
while expanding the size of the operation on to adjacent properties
to the east and west. There is 1itt1e or no infornation given on
the status of properties to the east and west of the lloon valley
cravel Pit, and since the Eden Prairie city line is located
adjacent to the eastern property line of the liloon valley operation,
this would infer that operations rrould be expanded into the City of
Eden Prairie. In fact, mention of this is nade in the narrative
subrnitted with this perrnit application request.
on Friday, october 4, :-99]-, I spoke with Chris Enger, the Connunity
Developnent Director for Eden Prairie. I inquired as to trhether or
not the city of Eden Prairie Planning staff had ever been contacted
by the Moon valley operators concerning the proposed expansion of
the pit into that community. Ur. Enger indicated to ne that to the
best of his kno$rledge neither he nor anyone eLse on his staff had
spoken to the lloon valley appllcants, and that ny call was the
first they had heard about it. Chris indicated to rne that he would
have significant concerns vith potential of the gravel pit
expanding into his connunity and, in fact, in his opinion it was
irnpossible to do so under their ordinances which. restrict gravel
:oining to industrially zoned property.
I updated Chris on the status of the lioon valley project,
application and litigation, and indicated that I rrould fon ard hirn
copies of their application subnittaL. These naterials were sent
out on Friday afternoon.
pc: Roger Knutson, City Attorneycity council
Planning Conrnission
]Dt! pn'nreo on nEcrcueo pepsn
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
590 COULTER DBIVE. PO. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN,.MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-5739
October 1, 1991
l{r. Anthony GleekelSeige)., Bril1, Greupner and DuffySuite 1350
100 l{ashington SquareMinneapolis, HN 55401
Dear llr. Gleekel:
This. letter is being prepared in reference to your subnlttal. for anearth rrork permit for Uoon Valley Aggregates Lnd their operationsin the city of chanhassen. .ns yo:u ail piouabli i".iil-r..--illerveayour application in two part- during the iirst iro velks otseptember. Based upon Dy review oi this subnittal, f haveconcluded that it is incomp!.ete and rre are unabl.e to process itfurther until you have provided additionar aocunen-tillon asrequested. fn this Letter I have eunnarized the appllcationrequirenents, uhat is uissing, and rrhat needs to ue siipifea tosatisfy the ordinance.
1. Name and address _of -the operator and owner of the Land,together t ith proof of ownership. If the operator and ownerare different, both nust sign tle applicati-on.
?indiDg: we do not guestion lloon val.ley Aggregates controlover their site which is described in ti:e i6gai aescriptionsubmitted uith the application. However, y6ur apprlc-ationdoes sh-ow- the potential of grading activity o]n srtE-s-urricn wedo not ber.ieve are controlred direltry by t-he appticint,-or lnany case, ve have not been provided sith-eviaenll that ihls istrue. This includes propos-ed grading activity in ttrj Cfty ofEden prairie, which worrld be reqtiired to'.r'a.iiif" yo,r.arternate land use grading pran. s1uilar1y, parcers'locateawest of your site which contain existrng singie fanily homesare arso shown being graded under the art-ernatl rana uE'e pran.since you are showing the.potential of gradirl i"- tfr.-City ofEden prairie, lre rrourd rike to have eiidenc6 trrat- vou rra"ediscussed this matter with the city u"a - t-fiii 'Vou areproceeding on track with a sinrilar reguist 1n trrai coi,nunity.we are also asking you to cl.arify the- ownership issut.
site topography and natural. features, including locationof uater courses and rater bodies.
liadlag: The lnforBation provlded ls Eenerally acceptable.
e. Descriptlon and quantlty of naterial to be excavated.
Findlag: your response to thLs guestlon is an indication that
you have not estimated the quantlty of naterial that is to be
excavated and you point out that a calculatlon could be Dade
by comparing the existing and proposed grades. we agree thata calculation could be nade and Ehould be rnade by you to
conplete this appl ication.
f. Depth of uater tables throughout the area.
Fiadling: You indicated that you have no infomation on water
tabLes except that which the city could provide. This city
has no information on lrater tables in this area but ue do havea significant concern. In other areas vhere excavation hasoccurred into this bluff llne, there have been a series of
underground Lrater sources that have been breached and which
nake creating stable slopes a difficult tlsk at best. Toseriously pursue thiE natter, you night uant to consult niththe Carver County Soil Consenration Service and sinilaragencies. Your indication that you uant the ability to ninebelo!, ground rater levels raises additlonal lssues regardingwater quality protection and potentlal inpact upon otherproperties in the area that rely on ground water supplies.
More information is needed to clarify these points.
g. Location and depth of we1Ls, buried garbage, rrater, andfiII.
rindlag: The inforrnation provided iE acceptable.
5. Purpose of the operation.
Finding: The inforDation provided is acceptable.
5. Estimated tirne required to conplete the operation.
d
Flndllng: The information you have provided does not provide
any inforrnation on a schedule of cornpletion. Your correlatingthe ability of your providing a grading Echedule uith thecityrs ability to Eive a specific tine in which publicutilities would be nade availabl.e to the site is Lnapproprlate
Ur. Anthony Gleekel
October 1, 1991
Page 3
naintain public access to existlng hones, and. in fact, whichexisting hones would renain untouched by your activlty.
ur. Anthony cleekel
October 1, 1991
Page 5
12.
13.
?iDAlDg: you have provided rudl.Dentary informatl,on on travelroutes but no lnfomation on the type and nunber of trucksthat ui11 be used. This figure could ieasonably and easily beprovided once you have calculated the naterial you arehauling. It is lnportant to have this inforaation so that thecity and llnDOT can assess the need for regulatory hours ofoperation and possible safety iuprovenents iuch as turn laneson Hwy. L69/212.
Plans for drainage, erosion control, sedinentatlon and dustcontrol .
Pindliug: The information you have provided is sufficient tobegin a review of your proposals, but additional lnformationwill certainly be reguired before final recommendation can begiven due to the lack of detail contained in your aubmittai.For exanpl.e, there is no erosion control plan-or infornationconcerning drainage flows, on-eLte retention, etc.
A restoration
-
pl-an providlng for the orderly and continuingrestoration of all dlsturbed land to a condilion egual. to oibetter than that which existed prior to the earth w6rk. Suchplans shall illustrat-e, -usi.n9 photographs, Daps, and Eurveys,or appropriate, the following:
a. The contour of the land prior to the excavation andproposed contours after conpletion of the excavation andafter conpletion of restoration.
Fiudtiug: As noted earlier, you have given us tuo plans withno indication as to uhich one you actually 'roul.d b;undertaking. Until you have Dade- up your nind on thisquestion, I cannot see how re can proce6d irith revierfng y-urproposal .
b Those areas of the sitesoil and overburden.
to be used for storage of top
Piadiug: see comnent t4b.
c. Schedul.e setting forth tlnetabl.e for excavation of landlying within the extraction facillty.
fiDdlDg: See Collnent f6.
In reviewing your application request, re in no uay have deternined
whether or not the infonnation that you have provided represents aposition that can be supporteit by city staff. The purpose of thisletter is not to evaluate the issues, but rather to respond to theapplication proposal you have Bubnitted.
I or Dy staff uill. be availabfe at your convenience to discussthese natters in further detail.
S incerely
PauI Krauss, AICPDirector of Planning
PK: v
pc: Roger Knutson, city Attorney
Don Ashuorth, City Uanager
Charles Folch, City EngineerCity Council
Planning Connission
Ton Zwiers, G & T Trucking Co.
John Voss, Urban Planning & Design, Inc.
Ur. Anthony Gleekel
October 1, 1991
Page 7
I
ilooil vAttEY
AGGREGATES
Xialag lpplication
Septeuber 1991
XOOII VAI,I,ET
A@RBGATES
SEPTEIIBER 1991
APPLICBTT/OWXER
Ton zlriers
G&T
1111 Deuce RoadElko, l.IN 55020(6L2) 46t-2L80
AITORI{ET
Gerald S. Duffy
Seigel, BriII, GreuPDer and Duffy, P.A.
1Oo washington Square, Suite 1350
lr{inneapolis, MN 55401
(512) 339-7131
PI.ArITER
John s. voss
Urban Planning a oesigD, Inc.
?3OO w. 147th St., Suite 504
Apple vall.ey, MN 55L24(612) 43L-440t
IflIDSCTPE ARCHITECT
Eldon Hugelen(6t2) 431-4334
OPERATIOIS I,IAIIAGERJerry Rypkema
trlEMO TO:Paul Krause, Director of PlanningCity of Chanhassen
John S. voss, Planning Consultant
Urban Planning & Design, Inc.FROM:
DATE:
SI'BJECT :
The following is information required
ordinance No. 128. in addition to that
application fonn.
by the Chanhassen Mining
requj-red on the conpleted
Grading Plap(s)
A grading plan ( Exhibit A) is subrnitted illustrating
complete nining of the site. This plan would provide for
gradual rnining floor elevations fron a 720 ft. existiag
elevation along U.S. Ilighway 169 to a 740 ft. elevation
approxiroately 2,4OO ft. to the Dorth. Sj-de slopes wouLd be
maintained at 2.1 as illustrated.
A second grading plan (Exbibit B) is also subnitted
iLlustrating the following:
a. Extensive rnining would continue at the lower eleva-
tions along U.S. Highway 159. Uining would occur
1
Septenber 5, 19 91
Moon valley ( Tom zwiers)
Earth work Application (Ord. No. 128)
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both east and west of the existing site boundary in
order to provide consistent grades, eliminate steep
slopes and make the property more useable for end
land uses.
b. The grading plan uraintains the existing steep
slopes and wooded areas imediately adjacent to
Ir.s. Highway 169 for purPoaes of screening
c. The grading plan provides for preservation of the
bluff line and existing trees at the top of the
bluff. It alEo provides for a three (3) acre
sealed pond with a controlled outlet.
d. The grading plan also provides for the potential of
renoving I to 10 feet of material from the Dorth
rneadow area of the site.
e. The applicant is currently negotiating a Purchase
of the 15 to 20 acres rrest of the existing ProPerty
line. This grading plan anticipates either the
acguisiti-on or cooPeration of this owner to accom-
plish the proposed grade. If this can not be done,
a 2,L slope will be naintained along the west
property line.
All of this is clearly illustrated on the grading plao(s)
which itlustrate both existing and proposed grades.
6
Stockpile Sites
Existing stockpiles are shown on the rroperation plan't
(Exhibit D). Existing stockpiles are a lime storage area, a
mined material stockpile and a topsoil (black dirt) stockpile.
The lime would be used as a fill naterial in the proposed
ponding area.
As nining progresses, siroilar naterial stockpiles may be
created in the nai-n operation area similar to that rrhich
exists .
3. Ph st c a 1 Relat onshio to conmunitv and Exist ino Dev elo Dment
There is very little existing developnent in the innedi-
ate area. ExistiDg development generally consists of conner-
cial and industrial uses fronting along U.S. Highrray 169.
west of the subject site and north of Highway 1G9 are
four single fanily homes located on a private driveway and
developed on metes and bounds Lots.
The general topography of the area is very irregular,
with steep slopes. The objective of the grading plan(s)
submitted herein is to nine naterial and leave the site in a
nuch more suitable condition for ultimate developnent.
Site Topooraphv an d l{atural Features
The Moon Val1ey Aggregates site general.ly ranges in
eLevation frorn a lower elevation of Z2O along U.S. Eighway 169
to upper elevations to the Dorth portions of the property
exceeding 900 feet. A bluff erists at the rnid-point of the
7
2.
4.
property at approxinately a 900 - 920 elevation. The highest
elevation of the property is 930.5.
There are two well definird g:ullies on the property. one
is Located in the northeastern Portion of the site rrhere the
gully flows to the east toward the Eden Prairie boundary. In
this area the higher elevation is at 890 down to a 810
elevation along the boundary of the proPerty. Another gully
exists in the west central portion of the ProPerty where the
elevations range from 920 to a lower elevation along an o1d
railroad bed of 810. DistiDgtuishiDg features of this site in
addition to the extreme relief are aD abandoned railroad bed
which forms the west periroeter of the proPerty running in
northeast to southwesterly direction, ao open neadow of
approximately 12 acres at the upper elevations, and a heavily
wooded bluff at the 9OO to 920 elevations. There also is a
well defined drainage area which follows the lower elevatj-on
of the raj-lroad bed to the existing west boundary of the
property and then meanders south to a crossj.ng under U.s.
Highbray 159.
In the past, with this ertreme relief, this site at one
time was used as a downhil l ski area. The project area is a
part of the large terrace that exists along the north side of
the Minnesota River val1ey.
The site area is approximately 85 acres with a ProPoaed
addition of approrimately 15 to 20 acres along the lrest
boundary.
8
5 Descriptiop apd ouatrtity of Excavated tlaterial
The excavated material from the subject site generally
consists of a clay materiaL, particularly at the hlgher
elevations, and sand and gravel material.
The quantity of the available nraterial has not been
calculated, however, a calculation couLd generally be nade by
comparing the existing and proposed grades as shown on the
enclosed grading plans. However, in some instances nining may
occur below finished grades.
Depth of Yfater Tables ia Area
. The applicant does . not have any i.nfornation other than
inforrnation which the City could provide related to depths of
water tables. Another source nay be the Geologic Atlas srhich
has been developed for Hennepin County which border8 the
subject site.
Location and Depth of tfells, Buried carbage. tfater apd Fill
The applicant is not avrare of any buried garbage or
sinilar naterial that has occurred or exists on the subject
property except for auto bodies in the northeast area gruIly.
These wiII have to be removed when this area is nined and/or
restored.
An artisan r"rater well exists on the site but a well log
is not availabLe. It is believed that this well was drilled
to a depth of 500 feet.
5
7
9
I PurDose of the ODeratioD
The Moon vatley Aggregates rnining operation is conducted
primarily for the purpose of obtaining fill material and
processed aggregate to be used for off site developnent. The
material that is mined, as previously described, prirnarily
consists of clay, sand and aggregate naterial.
rine to Conplete lhe OPeration
The applicant does not have an established tine frame for
compteting the rnining of subject property. The tine to
complete the operation will depend upon several factors such
as the demand for the material which is beyond the control and
the ability to predict by the applicant. Another factor will
be the market demand for an end use developnent on the subject
property which also can not be predicted with any certainty.
For example, the City of Chanhassen is unabLe to Provide a
specific tirne franne in which public utilities will be made
available to the subject property to support end use develop-
nent.
lO . Hours apd tt{oBtbs of OPeratioD
The rnining operation will be conducted during most of the
months of the Year.
The hours of operation may occur any tine durj.ng a normal
24 hour day. The operation which consists primarily of nj.ning
and hauling naterial from the sj.te is effected by the peak
traffic hours along U.S. Eighetay 159. Therefore, attempts are
made to haul material during the off peak traffic hours.
9
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11. Descriptiop of wooded Arcaa
Above the existing nining operatj-on area there is a
mature upland hardwood forest. This area is about 20 acres in
total size. The dorninant canoPy of trees are oak, hardwood
naples and basswood. Other secondary trees area e).n, ash,
aspen, birch, wild cherry and butternut. very few openings in
the forest canopy exist to a11ow seedlings to develop.
Consequently there is only sparae understory tree and ehrub
growth. Also, along the south west ridge of this forest are
plantings of red pine. This existing wooded area is labeled
and outlined on the grading plan exhibit B nap- It aLso can
be identified from an aerial photo of the site.
72. End Use tandscaPe PIaD ald fnterin ScreeDLDg PIaD
The grading plan exhibit B clearly ahovrs the boundaries
of the area to be excavated al.ong U.S. Highway 169. In this
area the steep slopes and existing wooded area would be
retained wherein this would provide a Eicreen from public view.
The only openi-ng would be in the area of the existing drive-
way.
An End use LandscaPe Plan has not been developed since
the end uses have not been deternined at this time. Eoltever,
the grading plau exhibit B does provide for the protectj.on and
rnaintenance of the existing wooded area for a single fanily
residential development at the top of the bluff. The steep
slopes will also be restored and maintained as described in
the restoration p1an.
L2
13.
14.
PIan of Operatiop Eguippept aad Processipg
The plan of operation as previously described would be to
rnine c1ay, sand & aggregate materiaL to stockpil,e and to haul
the material fron the site.
The equipment used in this operation would primarily be
that equipnent which exists on the site, rranelyi trucks,
frontend loader, crusher, screening/water wash plant, bulLdoz-
ers, periodic portable concrete ready nix plant, equipmetrt
storage trailers, scales and similar equipment.
In the future there may be a need to bring additional
equj-pnent onto the site for allied processing operations. The
City will be so inforned at the tine there is any substantial
change in the operation.
The only source of hrater on site is a private weII. fi{o
septic systems also exist on the site.
Travel Routes. f,upber apd fylle of frucks
The prinary travel route to and from the site would be
aLong U.S. Highway 159 which forrns the south boundary of the
site. The only other haul route which may be used in the
future would be along the north boundary of the site across
property ovrned by the applicant which exists in the adjaceDt
cornmunity of Eden Prairie wherein a travel road would lead to
Pioneer Trail .
13
15.Draiuaqe ,Erosion ald Dust Control
a. Drainage
During current operations nost of the runoff percolates
into the impervious sandy soil which exists on the site.
Al-so, a seafed retention poDd has developed as shown on the
operation plan. It has been developed at a lower eLevation so
that drainage which does not Percolate from the mining area
can be dj,verted to this retention pond. The renainder of the
area naturally drains to a bor culvert which exists under U.S.
Ilighway 169 Dear the rnain entrance. Future operations are
expected to be conducted in a sirnilar manner where retention
ponds wi1J. be used to retain most of the storm drainage on
site .
End uae Grading Plan ( exhibit A) provides for a ponding
area in the central portion of the Property which would be
utilized to retain most of the drainage created along the eide
sLopes. Drainage also would utilize the above described box
culvert under U.S. Highway 169.
End use Grading Exhibit B provides several stortfl drainage
alternatives. The north portion of the Property would drain
to the north to a Emall existing lretlaDd which could be
further developed as a smal1 holding pond. Drainage would
naturally outflow fron this Pond to the north into the Eden
Prairie property which is owned by the applieant.
In the central portion of the Property as illustrated an
approximate 3 acre holding pond would be created and sealed.
r4
This pond would have a control],ed outlet. Natural drainage
from the area and along the botton of the railroad bed from
the north would drain j.nto this holding pond. The outlet
would direct drainage toward the natural drainage area that is
illustrated and exists along the west edge of the subject
property and eventuaLly drains under U.S. Ei-ghway 169.
Fina11y, drainage at the lower elevations would naturally
drain to the above mentioned drainage ditch area and also to
the box culvert located Dear the nain entrance under U.S.
Eighway 169.
b. . Erosiou
A certain amount of sand erosion created by water runoff
wilL occur during operation. There wi]l be an attempt to
retain as much of this sedinent as possible on site and nost
of it will flow to the retention pond and settLe out. When
nining is cornplete the nined areas will be stabilized and
seeded as described below to deter any erosion. This is
described in the restoration paragraph.
Potential air pollutant emissions related to the opera-
tion are regulated by both the tlinnesota pollution Control
Agency (UPCA) and the U.S. Department of Labor inspections
under their [Mine Safety and llealth Adnrinistrationn (]!SHA).
The ITIPCA conducts an alternate year i.nventory of air pollutant
ernissions. This inforrnation is conpiled and sent to the
Federal Environmental Protection Agency (EpA). The operator
15
16.
is requi-red to complete an emissions inventory questionnaire
when required by the }!PCA.
The U.S. Department of Labor conducts periodical inspec-
tions of the Moon valfey Aggregate operation. Inspections
relate primarity to ernployee safety, i.e. dust control, noise
Ievels, equipment safety and general working conditions.
From the above it is evident that there is adequate
inspection, regulation and control of such matters as dust
control, r,{orkj-ng conditions and noise levels provided by state
and federal agencies.
Restoratiop Plap
a. Existiag Contours
Existing contours of the Moon Val1ey Aggregates site are
shovrn on Exhibit C. This is a toPographic urap that was
obtained f rorn the City.
b. Proposed Contoura
The end use grading contours as illustrated on Exhibit A
represent a total nining of the site providing a gradual grade
leading from the entrance at u.s. Ilighway 169 fron the south
to the north of the property providing a 2:1 sj-de slope.
Exhibit B illustrates an end use grading plan wherein the
bluff and the trees are retained. This plan would anticipate
the subdivision and developnent of a 2l acre lot residential
area to the north with a cul-de-sac leading to Pioneer Trail
to the north. The end use grading plan also provides for a
loop street with access to U.s. Ilighway 169 and a conner-
15
cial/industrial development at this lower elevation. The plan
would retain the existing steep sLopes and wooded area as a
screen aLong U.S. Ilighway 159. The plan shows the relation-
ship between the existing grades and the proposed grades.
c. fiDetable
As previously described no tinetable for the nining of
this area has been developed. Thj.s would depend upon factors
beyond the control of the applicant such as the market for the
material and the ability to develop end uses on this site.
d. Restoration Procedures
The general restoration procedure wilL be to strip and
stockpile the topsoil from those areas which are to be mined.
After mining is complete the topsoil will be re-spread and the
area will be seeded aDd othen ise stabilj.zed except for
building pads and roads. A typical seed mixture will consist
of perennial rye gras6, tinothy, switch lfrass, white clover,
smooth brorne grass and park Kentucky bJ.uegrass siniLar to that
used by UNDOT to stabilize slopes.along interstate freeways.
At certain locations nining nay occur below the finished
elevation as shown on the end use gradj,ng plan(s). At these
locations, these areas will be backfilled, leveled and
stabilized according to the restoration scbedule described
above.
L7
18
77. coppliapce with PeEpit coDdl'tioDs
a. Couplaiats
The applicant will respond to any reasonable conplaints
about the operatioD in a tinely nanner and wilL attempt to
mitigate where feasibLe.
b. Revisioas
The applicant will submit any najor revisioDs to the
plans included herein as propoeed revisions may becorne
necessary. IIinor revj-sions will be provided to the City as a
part of the annual permitting Process wherein it is expected
that the City witl perform an inspection and any ninor
revisions will be detailed at that time.
18. Setbacks
The appticant will observe the setbacks required by the
ordinance wherein nining operations shall not be conducted
within one hundred feet of an existing highway or thirty feet
of an easement for an existing public utility. The applicant
will also observe the required three hundred foot boundary of
an adjoining residential proPerty not in rnining use except
during those periods where j-t is necessary to mj-ne such an
area in order to bring it to a proPosed end use grade. In
this instance the nining shall be limited to renovj'ng the
naterial and restoring the area. The three hundred foot
aetback will not be utilized for other operations such as long
term stockPiling of materials.
19. Feacing
The ordinance requires that itwhere excavation slopes are
steeper are one foot vertical to one and one-half feet
horizontal't the area sha11 be fenced unless the City deter-
nines that they do not pose a safety hazard. The ordj-nance
further states that trwater storage basins shal1 also be fenced
if the City deternines that the baBins pose a potential safety
hazard". The applicant feels that the operations are far
enough removed from any existj-ng developnent or public
activity that fencing for safety reasons should not be
required. Eowever, in those instances where there is a mutual
agreement that a hazard may occur the applicant will place a
srnall plastic safety fence which is nornally accepted and is
developed for that specific purpose.
20. Appearance atrd Screeni[g
Machinery will be kept in good repai-r and inoperable
machinery wilL either be rernoved from the site or stored in a
designated area. Inoperable equipnent may be needed for
replacement parts or use at a later date.
Storage trailers are located in a designated area for
storage of equipnent, parts, oi1, grease and sirnilar nainte-
nance materials.
19
CITY OF
EH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
},IEIt,IORANDIJ}.I
TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SULT:
Planning Conmission
Kate Aanenson, Planner II
October 25. L991
Tenporary uses, christmas Tree sales
Ba ckqround
Throughout the year the city of Chanhassen receives requests from
people to sell on a tenporary basis. Tenporary sales can include
seasonal sales such as produce, locaIIy grown or brought in,
christnas tree sa1es, flor'rer or punpkin sales, shrinp, Dtinnesota
Twins merchandise, velvet paintlngs, etc. These types of sales can
add flavor to a community, like the roadside stand, the farmers
market, and the ice creara vendor. There are seasonal sales which
are transitory in nature, such as ice cream vendors, that drive
throughout the residential areas of the city. other types of
temporary uses are carnivals, bazaars, fairs, or streets dances.currently, the city does not have a nechanisn to review these
requests, except through the Peddlers and Solicitors ordinance,thus, they generally have been prohibited in the past, except forthe occasional produce stand or a Christnas tree lot. These areeither grandfathered in or allolred since they are located on land
used for agricultural purposes.
The cityrs Peddlers and Solicitors ordinance states that personsshall not engage in solicitation in the city without registering
v,rith the city and violation of this ordinance is a rnidderneanor.
whj,Ie this gives the city some idea as to uho is in the city and
conducting this type of business, lt does not give the city nuchcontrol as far as regulating sone of the larger issues, including
revoking a registration perrnit or dealing with those people who
want to stay at a fixed location.
The purpose of the Interirn Use Pernit is to al1ow the use for abrief period of tirne until a pernanent location is obtained orwhile the permanent location is under construction. It is also to
al1ow a use that is presently acceptable, but with anticipated
devefopment will not be acceptable in the future. A temporary
ODl.aI'PRINTED ON BECrcLED PAPER
I
saLes use could be added to those uses listed under the interiu useperrnit. The trro nonth period to obtain a perrnit is a problen evenif the ordinance i,s amended. In nost circunstances it woutd takelonger to get a permit than the use would be in business.
The purpose of the conditional use ordinance is to include thoseuses which are not allowed within the zoning district, but nayunder sone circumstances be suitable. Again, nany uses which wouldbe seasonal or transitory in nature would not be desired under aconditional use, may be acceptable on a tenporary basis, forexample, ice crean vendors in the RSF zone.
Tenporary Usesoctober 25, l99L
Page 2
There are two issues for your consideration, the first issue is todevelop sone criteria for allowing christnas trees sales for thisholiday season, and secondly, does the City want to develop anordinance. regulating ternporary uses?
ANA LYS T S
the purpose of a tempor:ary use is to a11ow within the city certainuses which are transitory in nature, as either acce-ssory orseasonal uses, in a manner that wil1 assure conpatibility lrith theunderlying zoning district and adjacent propertles. The nain areaof concern with a tenporary. use is locition, conpatibility withsurrounding uses, and safety j.ssuesi including trafiic and buildingcode. A larger issue is that of cornpetition for those businessesthat have paid the price to establish a permanent residence in thecity.
Consideration should be given to any request to ensure that itmeets all city standards. The city Uourd want to pernit only thosetemporary uses that are unique .in nature or do -not fit irito anyother classification of the zoning district, including permittedlconditional or interim and are not the type of use- €hat would
f"l:!it by c.ircunventing the planning, li.te plan review andbuilding permit process.
By their nature, most temporary uses rocate near najor collectorsfor the visibi-lity. and have a limited time of oplration. Theconcerns fron the cityrs perspective incrudes the folrowing issues:
1. Traffic safety issues. Acceptable space for any off_street parking and traffic circulation generated iy theuse must be provided. Curb and gutter with driveapproaches is desired to provide jafe turn movements. Bytheir nature, these uses locate on major collectors. Asafe access to the site is necessary to reduce hazards.All sites .should be encouraged to be in an existingapproved site plan. They should not conflict with the
Temporary Uses
october 25, l99L
Page 3
prinary use. The uses should have hours that offset each
other.
2
3
4
5
Lighting should be conpatible with surrounding adjacent
uses,
Hours of
uses .
operation should be conpatible with adjacent
signage should be linited to wa11 signs so they do not
becone a safety or traffic hazard.
Uses should be required to cornp),y lrith aII necessary
Building code requirements, including inspections forany buildings, electrical connections, sanitary
conditions, etc. Many of the uses require electricity tothe site as hrell as a need for sanitary facilities. A11
necessary inspections should be required to ensure code
conpliance.
Pernission from the ouner of the property withIimitations as to the nunber of temporary uses for onelocation. A site should have sufficient space for theexisting use(s) as well as any proposed temporary uses.
Each use should be given a specific time period that they
nay operate.
Conpetition with rnainstrean nerchants should also begiven consideration with any tenporary use approval.
An application for a tenporary use could be made to the PlanningDepartnent. ff the application neets the standards set out in
temporary use ordinance, staff could authorize approval. rn
instances where a use Day be tenporary in nature but Ionger induration, the Planning Connission nay rrant to review these cases.
Staff would recornmend that the Planning cornrnission direct staff todraft a Tenporary Use ordinance, but in the neantirne use the
following criteria to review Christnas tree sales:
TET.TPORARY USE ORDINANCE
Lnnl ir.ati^n f.rr. .Folny!.tr^rv llco Da"'rni t An application for a
Temporary Use Permit shall be nade to the Planning Departmentat least L0 days prior to the date of requested use. The
Department may deny an application or issue a Tenporary UsePermit. In authorizing a tenporary use, the Planning
Department shall inpose such reguirements and conditions as
consj-dered necessary for the protection of adjacent properties
6
7
Temporary Uses
October 25, !99!
Page 4
and the public welfare in conforrnance rrith the standardsprovided in this section.
fnformation Reauired for Application. An application for aTenporary Use Permit shaLl be accompanied with the fotlowinginforuration:
L
2
A written
requested
description of the proposed use includinglength of permit and hours of operation.
4. Sufficient inforrnation to detennine the yard requirernent,sanitary facilities and availability of-parking to servethe use.
3. vicinity Uap.
Exoir ation of T Dorarv Use Permi t.Christmas tree salesshall expire December 25. The site shal1 be cleared and allrernaining debris removed fron the Christmas tree ternporary usesite.
ocat o
A description of the lot or property on which therequested use is to be conducted. ff the applicant isnot the owner of the property, ownership shall beidentified along with evidence of permistion of the ownerfor tenporary use to take place.
The Planning Director sha11, upon reasonable notice,be empov/er to suspend or revoke the ternporaryuse .pemit of any person who violates any of thaprovisions of this ordinance or any of the conditions setforth on their pernit.
ff at any tirne a permit, under theordinance, is suspended or revoked,be unlawful for any person to open,
rnanage or conduct any temporary use.
L
2 provisions of thisit shaIl thereafteroperate, ma j.ntain,
Standards for Tenporarv Use.rrrith general standards asadditional conditions as may
Department.
A Tenporary Use sha11 conplyprovided below including antbe established by the planning
1 Acceptable space for any off-street parking and trafficcirculation generated by the use nust be provided. Curband gutter with a drive approach is desired to provJ.desafe turn movenents.
Temporary Uses
October 25, l99l
Page 5
4
2. Lighting should be conpatible with surrounding adjacent
USES .
3. Hours of operation should be corapatible with adjacent
uses .
signage should be lirnited to rrall signs so they do not
becone a safety or traffic hazard.
Uses should be reguired to conply rrith all necessary
Building code requirenents, including inspections forany buildings, electrical connections, sanitary
conditions, etc.
Permission fron the olrner of the property withlinitations as to the nunber of ternporary uses for onetocation. A site should have sufficient space for the
existing use(s) as welL as any proposed tenporary uses.
5.
RECOMMENDATI ON
Staff would recommend that the Planning Courmission adopt the
Tenporary Use ordinance for Christmas Tree sales.
6.
CITY OF
EH[NH[EEEN
690 COULTER DRIVE . P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(512) 937-1900. FAX (512) 937-s739
MEMORANDIJM
TO:
rROM:
DATE:
SUBJ:
Planning conmission
Jo Ann olsen, Senior Planner
October 29, L99t
Amendnent to the Lake Ann Interceptor Agreement
On October 24, 1991, the liletropolitan Council approved the
amendment to the Lake Interceptor Agreement. The amendment allovs
the City to apply to any future subdivisions, a rural service
density standard of one residentj-al unit per 10 acres in general
rural areas and allows the city to designate the minimurn lot size.
The Zoning Ordinance can now be atnended to change the minimun fot
size frorn 2! acres to a smaller lot size if desired by the city.
This will allow for the clustering of lots in the rural area and
maintenance of larger open space. Staff will be preparing this as
a discussion for a future Planning Cornmission neeting.
tf,)a!t PRINTED ON RECrcLED PAPER
tl METROPOLITAN COUNCIL u"oo tu* Centre.230 bst fiJth Strcer. St. paut, MN. sstol 612 29t-6359
October 25, 1991
Mr. Paul Kraus
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive
P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317
RE: Amendment to the Lake Ann Interceptor Agreement
Dear Paul:
The Metropolitan council approved the enclosed amendment to the Lake Ann Interceptor
Agreement at its meeting yesterday. I assume that the city has the originat mpy of the amendment.
Please have the City execute three copies of the amendment (one for the City's records, one for the
MWCC's records, and one for the Metropolitan Council's records) and forward the documents to me
so I can lake care of having the MWCC and the Metropolitan council execute the documents.
Should you have any questions please do oot hesitate to contact me.
truly
W. Ohm
Assistant Counsel
encl
RECEIVEF
ocT 2 8 19Sl
CITV OF L;IjANHASSE^I
rIRST AI.TENDT'IENT
ao
SEWER FACII,ITY AGREEI{ENT
THIS AGREEMENT, rnade and entered into by and between the
METRoPoLITAN coUNcIL (hereinafter "the CouncLlrr), the UETROPOLITAN
wAsTE coNTRoL coMMIsSIoN (hereinafter rtthe Conmisslonl), and the
CITY oF CHANHASSEN (hereinafter rrthe cityrr).
I"IHEREAS, the Council,
previously entered into a
Agreenentrr dated March 19,
the Comrnission and the city have
contract entltled trsewer Facility
1986 (herelnafter rtthe contracttr)and
Now, THEREFoRE, the parties hereto, in the jolnt and separate
exercise of each of their po$rers, and in consideration of the
rnutual covenants herein contained, hereby agree as follow:
Section 6.1(A)3 of the contract is amended to read as follows:
A provision applicable to any future subdivisions. designating
ru-ral service density standards of one residential unlt per
ten (Lo) acres in general rural areas and one unlt per forty
(40) acres in agricultural rural areas subject to variances as
may' be permitted by Iaw. The parties recognize that -thisprovision may include elenents to address unconstitutional
takings, hardships, and unique circumstances.
Agreenent on the _ day of 19
WHEREAS, the parties desire to amend the contract.
The City agrees to adopt, after review and acceptance by the
council and prior to August 1, 1986, the above described
comprehensive plan anendments. Notwithstanding . any other
provisions of this Agreenent, no use of the facility .as a
trunk sewer shall be permitted until the City has submitted
and the Council has accepted the above described plan
ameidrnents.
fN WITNESS WHEREoF, the parties hereto have executed this
Approved as to forn METROPOLITAN COUNCTL
By:Its Chairperson
And:Its Executive Dlrector
I.IETROPOLITAN WASTE CONTROL
cotlltr ss r oN
Its Chairperson
And:
Its Chi ef Administrator
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
By:
Donal.d J. Chnlel , llayor
And :
Don Ashworth, Clty Manager
Approved as to form
CITY OF
CH[NH[SSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE ' P.O. BOX 147 ' CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 9s7-1900. FAX (612) 937-s739
October 25, L99L
Mr. Brian w. OhnAssistant counsellletropolitan council
Mears Park Centre
230 East Fifth StreetSt. Pau1, UN 55101
Dear Brian:
I hope this responds adequately to your inguiry. Thank you againfor your continued efforts on our behalf relative to the proposedcontract amendnents that rre have submitted to the Lake Ann
f nterceptor Agreenent.
si
Paul Krauss, AICP
Planning Director
pc: Bonnie Featherstone, l,letropolitan CouncilCity Council
Planning Conrnission
ODB'PRINTED ON REC\CLEO PAPEB
I am sorry for the delay in getting back to you but it has beenrather hectic lately. In your letter of October 11, 1991, you
indicated a concern that there was rrapproxinateLy 300 acresrr ofLand located outside of the UUSA line that is proposed to be
assessed by the City relative to the Iake Ann Interceptor. I amnot sure where this acreage total cones from and, in fact, there
was a nuch snaller anount of land that fel1 into this category.
The area in question is caLled Ches l,lar Farms and is located in asmaIl narroi, band r,rest of lftry. 41 and south of the MinnewashtaRegional Park. During the recent public hearing process, weeliminated this parcel fron the assessnent area sj.nce it is locatedoutside of the MUSA line. There are no other parcels in the final
assessnent roII located outside of the MUSA 1ine.
METROPOLITAN COUNCIL u"oo tu* Centre,230 Eut Ftlrh sr,.et. st. paut. MN. sslot 612 291-6359
October 11, 1991
Mr, Paul Kraus
City of Chanhassen
690 Coulter Drive
P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317
Dear Paul:
RE: Chanhassen Sanitary Sewer Assessments
I am wr_iting to let you know that the Management Committee unanimously approved the amendment
to the Lake Ann Agreement on october 8, 191. The full council will'aci on the amendmenr on
October 24, 1991. After action by the Council, the amendment wilt be sent to the City for execution.
In addition, as I mentioned in our recent conversation, a resident of the city of chanhassen
contacted Merropolitan council.,staff regarding a proposed assessment foi sanitary sewer
improvements by the Ciry. The residentt property is locaied-outside the Metropolitan Urban Service
Area ('MUSA') and lherefore does not receive sanitary sewer service. Based on the assessment
notice, it appears that approximately 300 acres of property tocated ouside the MUSA were proposed
to be assessed by the. City. A copy of the ass€ssment notice and a map prepared by Council siaff of
the assessment area is enclosed. You indicated to me thal the City Couniil subsequenrly removed
this property from the area assessed.
I hope that upon receiving the assessment notice and map you can mnfirm that the area was not
as19s1ed' Metropolitan Council policies require that local governments have sssessment pracrices
which limit creation of vested development righs. Assessing properg owners for sewer serviL which
lhey do not receive may create vested development rights in that the property ownen believe they
have the right to demand receiving-the servic€s they have paid fbr.' In addition, it may bi
unconstitulional for the City to assess for improvements which do not benefit the property assessed.
For the protection of the City, I would request that the City insure that it does not continue to assess
Prsons li)r sanitary sc\^er in arcas whish are outside the lri.[JS.d Shouirl yuu havc any qucsiiorir
please do not hesitate to contact me.
Council Member Bonnie Featherstone
yours,
Assistant Counsel
encl.
RECEIUETI
ocT 1 7 1991
GITY OF CnHnrrASSEF. -
E:b,'ry
-: / () t* "r'l y:' tr|,it,;,,, ;'l
CITY OF CHANHASSEN MI NNESOTA
PECIAL A SMEN
IMPROVEMENT NO:87 -)5
The City Counci I wi I I hold a publ ic
assessments Ior Improvement Proiect
, l9 9l ) at 7:30 p.
Dr ive, Chanhassen,
hear ing to consid
No. t7-75 r oom. in tFE-Eounci I
24/ 'bzsq
2q/-bbtlL/
er proposed
Monday ,
Chambers at
area to be
Road on the6Cou I t e r
assessed includes those
No r t h
ro
Mi nneso
erties e tween Lake Luc
a. The
!,fpr,r'r v rt'i1
T.H. No. 5 on t e
No. 4l on t
t e East. Your totae West and Power s Boulevard Coun t oad No.
amo u n t oT the proposed assessment ls
ou t h Ha t I ne oulevard oun t Ro ad
on
has been calculated in accordance
as Iol lows:
Property o\vner 3 Geraldine Eikaas
Addiess t 2753 Ches Mar Farm Road
Excelsior, MN. 55331
55j)-21!,r_90. Your assessmentwltn thEti ty Council's policy
Parce I No:25-2050020
tl t h(O
t f i;ir/\
Proposed
Spec i f i c
Assessment Against Your
lmprovements
Property as Descr ibed Below:
Arnoun t
$1,27?.29
Assessment may be paid in ful I without interest or other charges
within thirty (30) days alter the assessment hearing date. These
payments may be made in person or may be mailed to Chanhassen
City Hal I, 690 Coulter Drive, P.O. Box 147, Chanhassen' Minnesota
551L7, Attention: Treasurer. ' Please indicate the parcel number
on your check. Partiat prepayment oI the assessment is not
permitted.
-r11nlLake Ann lnterceptor Proiect
lf you elect not to pay the ful I amount within
after the hearing date, the assessment will be
year s with the installments appearing on your
beginnint next year. Interest will be i nc I uded
pe rcen t of the unpa i d ba I ance.
thirty (30)
spread ove r
real estateat the rate
days
t0
taxcsof 9
lile wi th the City
proposed assessment
on
the
Clerk,
by any
No appeal may be taken as to the amount of any assessment adoPted
unless a written ob ectlon s i gned by the af I ec ted proper ty owner
is {iled w erk prior to the assessment hear i ng orlth the City C
pr esen ted to the presiding of f icer at the hear i ng.
Ausu s t l2 t h
The proposed assessment rol I is
Yritten and oral objections to
property owner will be considered.
All written objections to
al the assessment hearing
Iai.l ure to ob jec t prior'to
a reasonab I e cause.
Page 2
assessment not received prior to orthe above manner are waived, unlessat the assessment hearing is due to
Court pursuant
not ice oI theof Chanhas sen
assessment andten ( l0) days
the
in
or
An owner may appeal an assessment to the Districtto Minnesota Statute Secr ion S 429.0E1 by servingappeal upon the Mayor or City Clerk oI the Citywithin thirty (30) days af ter the adopr i on of theIiling such notice with the District Court withinafter service upon the Mayor or City Clcrk.
Residents who are 65 years oI age or older, or retired by reasonof permanent and rotal disability may apply to havc payment otthe assessment deJer'red. The appl,i cation shall be made to theCity Clerk within thirty (30) days alter the adoption ol theassessment roll by the City Counci.l .
City staff will be available between the hours of t:00 a.m. to4:30 p.m. weekdays until the time of the public hearing to answerguestions about the proposed assessments. You may also telephone
C,i ty staf I at ( 617, 937-t900.
You will be notilied by mail oI any changes adopted by the CityCouncil in interest rates, prepayment reguirements or the amountof the adopted assessmenrs lrom those contained in this notice.
Don
City
City
As hwo r th
CIerk/Manager
oI Chanhassen, Minnesota
CORRE IONS
Please be advised of these corrections.
Pl'ease be adviEed of three correctiong to the speciar, AsBeEsnentNotice hrhich you have recentry received for the above-refeiencedproj ect .
The first correction relates to the issue of partlaL prepalrDent ofthe assessrnent. partiaL prepa)rrdent of the asiessnent' is- pirnitteaduring the 30-day period ar€ef the assessDent has been livied andbefore it has been certLfied to the County. Therefore, the lastsentence of the thirj- paragraph on page I of you-r speclalassessin€nt aotice si:ou]d.read as foiiows:
"PartiaL prepalment of the assessment is pemitted duringthe 30 days after the assessnent hearing date.r
The second correction occurs on line 8 of paragraph 1 involving thestatement, rryour totaL amount of the proposea assessnenf, isS555,264.00.n The uords ryour totalri Ehould be replaced vlth thepords rrThe total proj ectrt .
The third correction occurs on Line 2 of paragraph 1 on page z.The first word should read ,'atit, not xa1r. -
CITY OF CHANHASSEN. ITNNESOTA
SPECIAL ASSESSMENT NOTTCE
Don AshlrorthCity Clerk/Uanager
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