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1986 01 22 PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 22, 1986 - Chairman Ryan called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Steven Emmings, Robert Siegel, Bill Ryan, Ladd Conrad, Howard Noziska and Mike Thompson. MEMBERS ABSENT None STAFF PRESENT Barbara Dacy, City Planner, Jo Ann Olsen, Asst. City Planner and Vicki Churchill, Secretary. Interview for Planning Commission Vacancy The Planning Commission interviewed three candidates for the vacancy on the Commission. They included James Wildermuth, Don Chmiel and Tim Erhart. After discussion, the Commission recommended the City Council appoint Tim Erhart to fill the vacancy. _ PUBLIC HEARING Subdivision Request To Divide 59.2 Acres Into 20 Single Family Lots on Property Zoned R-la, Agricultural Residence District and Located Off of Creekwood Drive, Just South of the Bluff Creek Golf Course, Norm Berglund and A. Johnson, applicants Public Present Don Chmiel Bob and Judy Steffes Chad Junker Kathy Smith Ron and Marian Mundale Tim and Dawne Erhart Gary Anderson Ann Vogel Dale Gunderson 7100 Tecumseh Lane 1350 Hesse Farm Road 1250 Hesse Farm Road 1020 Hesse Farm Road 10260 Manden Circle 775 W. 96th street 725 Creekwood 815 Creekwood 845 Creekwood e Olsen stated that the applicants are proposing to subdivide 19.29 acres into 6 single family lots along pioneer Trail and 39.06 acres into 14 single family lots just south of the Bluff Creek Golf Course. She stated that all of the lots are at least 2.5 acres in size and have the required frontage. She stated that the proprty is outside of the MUSA line and each lot must have its own septic system and well. She noted that the applicant submitted two percolation tests for each lot which met city stan- dards. She noted that each lot should also contain two suitable sites for septic systems in case one system fails. e e e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 2 Olsen stated that all lots are constricted by extreme slopes. She stated that it is very critical for the location of septic systems on the lots located south of the golf course. She noted that these lots have a steep slope which runs directly into Bluff Creek. She stated that to locate both a home and septic system on level areas is almost impossible with some of the lots. She stated that there are 6 lots that staff has requested blow-ups to better illustrate the exact location of the home and septic system in relation to the slope. Olsen stated that the applicant is proposing several sedimentation basins along the southerly portion of the development to decrease the direct runoff into Bluff Creek and to control erosion. She stated that under normal conditions, these methods would be adequate to control the situation; however, because of the steep slopes and high amount of erosion, if the basins were to break, extensive damage would occur to the creek. She stated that the watershed District has stated concern over this and will be requiring storm sewer systems to discharge the water from the upland areas to an outlet at Bluff Creek. She stated that the applicant will have to submit detailed drainage plans which will have to receive approval by the city and the watershed district. Olsen also stated that the lots along pioneer Trail and Bluff Creek are severely limited in buildable area due to the topography. She noted that the lots along pioneer Trail will have to place the driveway and building site into these existing slopes. She stated that the homes on Bluff Creek will have to place the homes on the edge or into the slope and in some cases do not even have enough level area for a small yard. She stated that restabilization and maintenance of the slopes is critical to the preservation of the area. She stated that since the proposed development will result in extreme land alteration, it can be looked at as overutilization of the land. She stated that with the proposed number of lots and the limited buildable area on each lot there will be extensive grading being done. She stated that the applicant will have to submit detailed grading plans to be approved by the city and the watershed district. She also stated that staff is recommending that all building plans be approved by a certified architect or civil engineer to ensure that the homes will be structurally secure and guarantee the stabilization of the slope. Olsen stated that County Road 14 is designated as a local street by Carver County; however, it is being used as a collector until Highway 212 is completed. She noted that a collector street designation requires a driveway separation of 1000 feet with a minimum of 300 feet. She stated that staff is recommending that driveways be shared where possible and that a separation of 1000 feet be maintained. She stated that the applicant will have to receive access permits from the County. She also stated that e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 3 e Creekwood Drive is considered a public street from Highway 101 to the westerly edge of Halla Nursery which is approximately 1100 feet long. She stated that Creekwood Drive continues as a pri- vate gravel road to the golf course parking lot which is approxi- mately 1,600 feet in length. She noted that currently there are 13 single family residences and a golf course using a 2,700 foot cul-de-sac. She stated that the applicant is proposing to dedi- cate right-of-way along the existing 2,700 foot private road to allow it to become a public road. She noted that the applicants are then proposing to extend a private drive another 2,500 feet to serve the proposed 14 single family lots. She noted that this will result in a 5,200 foot long cul-de-sac. She explained that there are two concerns regarding this proposal. She stated that private streets are not allowed, except for a private drive serving up to three single family lots. She also stated that the proposal will result in almost a mile long cul-de-sac with no emergency or secondary access. She noted that the Subdivision Ordinance states that the maximum length of a cul-de-sac shall be determined by the expected density along the street, which allows the city the opportunity to look at each case and allow a longer cul-de-sac if feasible. She stated that past current planning practices have recommended limiting cul-de-sacs to 500 feet with a maximum of 1000 feet. She stated that staff has stressed the necessity of a second access and the only option is to put a road through the existing golf course, which the applicant states would not be feasible. Olsen also stated that the applicant is also proposing eight outlots. She stated that Outlot A will be the private drive and the applicant has also mentioned placing a gate across for pri- vacy. She noted that staff is recommending that no gate be allowed for safety purposes. She stated that Outlot B will remain as open space and noted that the Park and Recreation Commission reviewed this outlot for possible passive park use; however, decided against it. She stated that Outlot C will remain as open space until it can be accessed from the west and Outlots D and E are for future accesses. She stated that staff is recommending that Outlots D, E and H be dedicated to the city at this time for future right-of-way purposes. She stated that Outlot F will remain as part of the golf course and be used as a landscape buffer and Outlot G is proposed and recommended to be turned over to Dave Johnson, the adjacent property owner to become part of his property. e Peter Stalland stated that he is representing Norm Berglund and Art Johnson, the owners of Bluff Creek Greens. He stated that the plan is taking into account the beauty of the area. He stated that the homes would range in price from $250,000 and up. He stated that with that in mind, the buyers will be able to take into consideration with their architect or builder the unique property with the slopes. He stated that he would like to com- ment on some of staff's recommendations. He noted that the e e e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 4 street is lengthy in reference to the city ordinances; however, Mr. Ernst has spent considerable time reviewing the entire property trying to think of some way to have a connecting street. He stated that there is just no way. He stated that they cannot put the road through the golf course because if you move one fairway, then all of them have to be adjusted and the expense would be astronomical. He felt that because it will be built to city street standards it will allow adequate accessibility for fire and police. He stated that from a strictly legal stand- point, if a variance was not granted, what kind of hardship would it create. He stated that the hardship is obvious, because it would landlock developable acres. He stated that in regard to the septic field, there is a minimum of one 50' x lOa' drain- field area. He stated that for those lots that do not have a 50' x lOa' area to be placed on the slope, two things can be done. He stated that number one, there could be a variety of types of septic drainfields that are not 50' x lOa'. He stated that you can trench them in, mound them, or cut into the slope. He stated that there are a variety of ways that are acceptable. He stated that secondly, the back-up system could be a holding tank. He stated that it would only be utilized if the first system failed. He stated that with regard to the detailed grading and drainage plans, they are reading that staff wants detailed grading and drainage of specific lots. He stated that they can not give that to staff until a house is built. He stated that it could be sub- mitted at the time of building permit application. He stated that they will submit the details for the streets, etc. for the plat. He also stated that they are not planning to put up a gate or barrier at this time, but would like to reserve the right to do this in the future. He stated that it would be purely for security. He stated that they did not want people driving down and vandalizing or burglarizing the area. He stated, however, if the public safety officials felt that there should not be a barrier for safety reasons, that was fine with them. Mr. Ernst stated that there was a point made that there would be more drainage created and that creating more problems with the existing low areas and ravines. He stated that the only increase in the drainage is on the hard surfaced part of the street. He felt that they were actually improving the drainage because they are putting in a holding system rather than letting it run naturally down the ravine. He stated that their first approach in dealing with the street was to find an alternate route to come in and make the total loop through the golf course and then into the subdivision. He stated that by routing the road through the golf course they would have to re-adjust all of the fairways or split the course in half making it an inconvenience of playing golf across the road. e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 5 Ann Vogel asked what kind of access would there be by Outlot H? Bill Monk stated that Outlot H will be dedicated as part of the street right-of-way. He stated that it is being dedicated so that the existing owners will not have to cross private property. He stated that the work from the western edge of Halla Nursery to the golf course parking lot will be done as a municipal installa- tion. He stated that the city will maintain the street from Highway 101 to the cul-de-sac. Ann Vogel asked who would pay for the improvements/street? Bill Monk stated that at this point in time it would be the developer. He stated that if they petition for this to be done as a municipal project, he would have to take a look at whether assessments would go back abutting property owners, but to date there has been no discussion of that. James Fenske asked if the Planning Commission was aware of how much traffic is on Creekwood right now? e Bill Monk stated that there was a count taken as part of the public improvement project to pave the portion of Creekwood that is public right now. He stated that he has counts generated over a period of about two weeks and the number was substantially in excess of what is generated by the existing residential pattern. He stated that he does not have the exact number with him. James Fenske stated that he brought this to attention because of the safety aspect. He stated that there was around 160 cars per day that went in there. Gary Anderson mentioned that there are 27 homes in that area, there are 160 cars that go in and out, and there is an additional area in which Halla can develop on the west side of his property. He stated that the homeowners have asked Mr. Berglund and Mr. Johnson to attend a number of meetings and have gotten no cooperation at all from them. He stated that the noise, safety and pollution is going to be a problem. Chairman Ryan asked Bill Monk how this subdivision would impact the traffic on the corner at Highway 101? e Bill Monk stated that with the existing corner there is restricted site distance to the north. He stated that he checked on accidents at that intersection and there was no above or below average numbers. He stated it gets substantial use in the summer and after reviewing the plat he did not see the 14 units putting the intersection beyond an acceptable level of traffic. He stated that the biggest concern is the length of the cul-de-sac and whether safe access can be provided. e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 6 Kathy Smith stated that she wanted to present a petition signed by six of the seven people in the Hesse Farm. She stated that the north side of the bluff is in poorer shape in regards to erosion control than the south side of the bluff. She wanted to hear what kind of guarantee that during and after construction the slope will be stabilized. Peter Stalland stated that there is no guarantee for erosion. He stated that they will conform to all acceptable engineering prac- tices that any engineer or developer would utilize in construc- tion. Bob Steffes stated that he has concerns about the lots proposed being half the size of the lots in Hesse Farm. Peter Stalland stated that with ponding in the development erosion will be decreased from where it is already. He stated that owners and builders of the new homes will take appropriate measures to ensure that their $300,000 home will not slide down the slope. Bob Steffes stated that it appears the developers are crowding the $200,000 homes on a very small level area in each lot. e Peter Stalland stated that a home with 2~ acres around each home is not high density at all. Kathy Smith stated that on a vertical slope, 2~ acres is not a great deal of land. She stated that all of the homes are right on the edge of the street and slope. Peter Stalland stated that people from Minnesota tend to be sort of oriented to flat surfaces. He stated that there are millions of homes across the united States that are built on slopes simi- lar to this. e Bill Monk stated that the concept being proposed here is to use four natural ravines or swales coming off the street at various locations. He stated that erosion is taking place and will con- tinue to do so as they find the way to the creek. He stated that one of the things that will have to be done and what is done on all projects in Chanhassen is reviewed by the watershed district in conjunction with city staff. He stated that points being raised that will have to be explored further is whether the con- cept of creating numerous upstream ponding areas or sumps will work. He stated that one way to do that is to actually do calcu- lations based on the grading taking place on how much water is being generated by the street and the development itself, how much these areas will hold to see if the rate of runoff in the four areas can be controlled to a certain velocity given the e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 7 steep slopes. He stated that the watershed district is stating that they are not sure that it can be accomplished as shown but are willing to take a look at the volumes in these areas to see whether the volumes in the areas to see whether the velocity rates can be controlled to stabilize the areas. He stated that if it cannot be stabilized, the two options would be to 1) pro- vide more upstream storage by enlarging the ponds or, 2) try and consolidate the small ponding areas as much as possible and then actually pipe it part of the way or all the way down. Peter Stalland stated that they have the right to develop the property in accordance with the plans, but we do want to work with city staff and work out the problems to everyone's satisfac- tion. M. Thompson moved, seconded by Conrad, to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. M. Thompson asked staff if the new zoning Ordinance went into effect, requiring ten acre lots, while this proposal was being processed without any approval, would it have any effect on it? e Barbara Dacy stated that the City Attorney advised staff that if the City Council approved the preliminary plat, that approval is valid for one year after the date of approval. She stated that if they approved a final plat, the approval is valid for two years. She stated that if there is a change in the zoning Ordinance within the one or two years, the plat is exempt from the new regulations. She stated that it has to be approved by the governing body, the City Council. M. Thompson was concerned with the area because it is unique. He stated that 2~ acres is quite an adequate amount to build a home under normal circumstances, but the developer has to assume that he is able to meet the necessary building and lot standards along with other criteria, such as drainage, erosion control, adequate septic systems, and all other safety factors. He does not feel the developer has worked with the neighbors and feels the item should be tabled until the developer can meet and work out the problems with neighbors and staff. Noziska felt that it was premature for the Planning Commission to make a decision with a lot of questions unanswered. He stated that it is a sensitive site and has concerns with the drainage, erosion, placement of house pads and septic sites. He also feels that the item should be tabled until questions are cleared up. e Conrad felt that it is an over use of land. He asked Dacy to explain the legal status of the 2~ acre minimum lot size require- ment and asked what Met Council policies were? e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 8 Dacy stated that the existing ordinance in effect at this time requires a minimum lot size of 2~ acres. She also stated the Met Council recommends a one unit per ten acre density in rural service areas. She noted that the proposed zoning Ordinance does require a ten acre minimum lot size; however, the Commission cannot base denial on a future ordinance provision. Conrad stated that 2~ acres is a minimum and it is 75% below Met Council. He felt that the south portion of the proposal is not a good plan. He stated that he would not even consider tabling the request, he would turn it down until the developer comes in with a lot of things that has been talked about corrected. He felt the cul-de-sac was a real safety problem. He was concerned about the environment in the area and felt that engineering things could be done to take care of some of the problems but not totally. He stated that he did not have any problems with the north side of the plan. e Siegel stated that he agreed with what has been said already. He stated that to him the proposal looked like more than just one plan. He felt that even though it would mean putting the golf course on two sides of the road, which is not an unusual situation anymore, that a lot of the problems could be alleviated with still a design that would make the property a more valuable piece of real estate. Emmings asked Bill Monk, if building and septic installation close to the bluff and down below the bluff, would it create stabilization problems during construction, and also if there were techniques to handle the problems? Bill Monk stated that each site would have to be handled indivi- dual with detailed site plan and erosion control measures above and beyond what would be designated as part of the project. He stated that there is a lot concern there. He stated that some of the house pads themselves are located on steep slopes where restabilization and regrading will be necessary. Emmings asked if there could be a situation on any of these lots where the house was built and septic system in and subsequent repair was needed and could not get to it because the house was there? Bill Monk stated that he did not believe so, if the septic systems were built on the higher portion of the slope. He stated that it would be extremely difficult to get to the septic system on Lot I and would cause redisturbance the slope again. e Emmings asked if by placing septic systems on a slope, and if there was a heavy rain, would it cause it to spring? e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 9 Bill Monk stated that most septic fields are located on slopes of 20% or less. He stated that there are curtain drains and other physical means to handle springs and so on. Emmings asked if there were any other cul-de-sacs in the city as long as what is being proposed? Bill Monk stated that the only one he can think of is the road to Camp Tanadoona, which is between 4,000 to 5,000 feet and over half of it is a narrow gravel private drive. He stated that there is a problem with it almost every time it snows. Emmings stated that he concurs with Ladd in that this should be denied until more work on the proposal is done. Ryan asked if there was any research done on getting through to the west to Bluff Creek Road? Dacy stated that it is under separate ownership. Ryan asked if anyone investigated easements to get through there? e Bill Monk stated that there is a pond and the creek in there and it would be virtually impossible. He stated that it was not looked into because of the phyiscal aspects. Ryan stated that the septic systems have to last long enough to get sewer out to the areas. He stated that the city is develop- ing from north to south and can not assume that one septic site will last 30 to 40 years. He also stated that even if the lots were ten acres he doubted they would have sufficient room for a back-up site. He stated that the Planning Commission's position has been in the past a minimum of ten acres. Conrad stated that the ordinance states 2~ acres in the rural areas; however he feels that this plan does not deal well with the 2~ acres. Peter Stalland stated that he wanted to clarify the record and state that they notified adjoining property owners by registered letter about the meeting held on January 6, 1986. M. Thompson asked Peter Stalland how they would prefer the Commission handle the recommendation. He asked if they would prefer to have it tabled and work out the problems or if they wanted it sent with a recommendation of denial to the City Council for their consideration. e Peter Stalland stated that they would prefer the Planning Commission not table the item and make recommendations to the Council on the items they would want changed or amended. e Planning Commission Minutes January 22, 1986 Page 10 M. Thompson moved, seconded by Conrad to deny the request as proposed. The Commission listed the following items as findings for denial: 1. Septic fields are not adequate and the availability of a second site for septic systems is questionable on some of the lots. 2. Problems with restabilization of the slopes during and after construction. 3. The long cul-de-sac poses safety problems. 4. Much of the lots contain steep slopes and do not meet the intent of the 2~ acre minimum lot size. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Siegel moved, seconded by Emmings to approve the January 8, 1986 minutes as written. All voted in favor and the motion carried. e Ryan abstained. ZONING ORDINANCE REVIEW Staff distributed a report proposing additional changes to the proposed Zoning Ordinance. Of importance was staff's recommen- dations for standards for conditional uses. The Commission reviewed the proposed zoning map. The Commission discussed the ten acre Eide property required to be rezoned to R-2. The Commission felt it should be rezoned through the public hearing process. Other areas of the city were discussed but no changes were proposed to be made. e