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1986 02 19 -- It - PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING FEBRUARY 19, 1986 Chairman Ryan called the meeting to order at 7:37 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Tim Erhart, Steven Emmings, Robert Siegel, Bill Ryan, Ladd Conrad, Howard Noziska and Mike Thompson. MEMBERS ABSENT None STAFF PRESENT Barbara Dacy, City Planner, Jo Ann Olsen, Asst. City Planner and vicki Churchill, Secretary. PUB LI C HEAR I NG Proposed Zoning Ordinance No. 47 and Proposed Official Zoning Map of the Citr of Chanhassen Public Present William E. Engebretson Jay Johnson David M. Halla Dale A. Gunderson Joel Winhem Dick Hartung Wallace otto Marvin & Judy Janicke Mike Gorra Grant & Beverly Beise Devon & Joanne Eklund Gail Kurtz Val McCarthy Jerry Gustafson Roger Schmidt Nancy Rogers Faye Hedtke D. O. Hansen Jeff Fox (for Frank Fox) Margie Karjalahti James & Arlene Zimmerman Mary Ryan Gary Judson Gilbert & Margaret Laurent Scott Reinertson Theodore pahl Jim Schluck Al Harvey Janet Lash 7120 Utica Lane 7496 Saratoga Dr. 10095 Great Plains Blvd. 845 Creekwood Lester prair ie 1319 Circle Terrace 400 So. Oak Street, Waconia 7021 Galpin Blvd. 1680 Arboretum Blvd. 7116 Utica Lane 920 penamint Court 7609 Iroquois Ave. 7404 Laredo Drive 8341 Galpin Blvd. 8301 Galpin Blvd. 7520 Frontier Trail 7611 Laredo Drive 108 pioneer Trail 27990 Smithtown Road, Excelsior 7413 Frontier Trail 7602 Frontier Trail 6730 Galpin Blvd. 1030 Kirkwood Lane, Plymouth 1371 pioneer Trail 6801 Utica Lane 13056 Johnson Memorial Dr. 6801 Utica Terrace 1430 Lake Lucy Road 6850 Utica Lane ~---~~ e e e Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 2 Public Present (continued) Pat Albrecht Richard Rice Norman T. Berglund Dewitt Dotson David Giestach Lee Paulson Cathy Anderson Dawne Erhart Jim Borchart Lee Anderson Ted Bent z John Hennessy Jeff Farmakes P. K. Beck Bernie Hanson Al Klingelhutz Sever Peterson Donald G. Patton Jim Lamson David Stockdale Charles & Irene Song Pat Swenson Carol Watson Jerri Martin Tom Hami 1 ton Gary Brown James F. Dolejsi Mike & Mary Chmiel Debbie Beckman Jim & Gail Murphy M. Happe Bob & Marge Anderson craig Mertz Garry Maher Dick Potz Chuck Dimler 6951 Tecumseh Lane 6950 Tecumseh Lane 1025 Creekwood 6911 Chaparral Lane 1531 Sunshire Circle, Chaska 308 Paul Ave. So., Cologne 6720 Maple Road 775 W. 96th Street 7331 Minnewashta Parkway 6651 Minnewashta Parkway 7300 Galpin Blvd. 7305 Galpin Blvd. 7100 utica Lane 7900 Xerxes Ave. S., Mpls. 4125 Thomas Ave., Minnetonka 8600 Great Plains Blvd. 15900 Hwy. 169 7600 Park lawn #200, Edina 5132 Meadow Ridge, Edina 7210 Galpin Blvd. 7200 Galpin Blvd. 9015 Lake Riley Blvd. 7131 utica Lane 8043 Cheyenne Ave. 440 Chan View 1831 Koehnen Circle 8121 1st Ave. S., Bloomington 7100 Tecumseh Lane 6895 Chaparral Lane 8500 Great Plains Blvd. 495 Lakota Lane 7090 Tecumseh Lane 510 Laredo Lane 7101 utica Lane 6991 Tecumseh Lane 7203 Kiowa Circle Chairman Ryan stated that the Planning Commission has worked with the ordinance for the past three to four years. He stated that the Planning Commission has coordinated a series of informational meetings with various members of the community. He stated that this is the first of two public hearings on this issue. He stated that the Planning Commission recommends to the City Council. Barbara Dacy stated that there are two proposed agriculture districts, A-I, Agricultural preservation District and A-2, Rural Residential District. She stated that the A-I District has a 40 acre minimum lot size which is required by state law for Agricultural Preserves. She stated that there is not an A-I e e e Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 3 District on the map however, if a land owner chooses to have that district applied they should contact the city. She stated that A-2 covers much of the southwest area of Chanhassen. She stated that the proposed minimum lot size is 10 acres. She stated that this is a change from the existing ordinance which now allows 2~ acres. She stated that the residential districts are broken down from R-la to R-5. She stated that the R-la District is located in the area where the Lake Ann Gravity Interceptor is supposed to be located. She stated that district is also proposed to have a minimum lot size of ten acres. She stated that in the urban ser- vice area, the classifications start as R-lb, which is a single family district, which requires a minimum of 15,000 square foot lot size. She state that the R-2 to R-5 Districts allows multiple family developments, townhomes, and two family dwellings and they vary in density. She stated that the R-2 District proposes a density of 40 units per acre, the R-3 District - 8 units per acre, R-4 District - 10 units per acre and the R-5 is 15 units per acre. She stated that these classifications have been applied to areas of existing multiple family dwellings. She stated that the Planning Commission has proposed additional R-3, R-4, and R-5 Districts in and around the downtown area and south of the business parks. She stated that the business districts range from B-1 to B-5. She stated that the B-1 district is the neighborhood business district and is in the area of the American Legion and additional outlots that were approved with the Hidden Valley Estates PUD request. She stated that the B-2 District is the highway business district and those areas are proposed along Highway 5, the West 79th Street area and the area east of McDonald's to the CPT property line. She stated that the B-3 District is a central business district and matches close to the existing downtown district at this time. She stated that the B-4 district is the general business district and the proposed areas are just west of downtown and at the termination of West 79th Street and the immediate northwest corner of Powers Boulevard and Highway 5. She stated that the B-5 District is called the fringe business district and is located on Highway 212 and 169 and created solely for those existing uses. She stated that there is an Office and Institutional District which is limited to only allow uses such as schools, churches, etc. and professional and business administrative offices. She stated the areas are proposed to be located where the old Minnetonka Jr. High School is and at the corner of Highway 7 and 41. She stated that the industrial district is to be called the Industrial Office Park District and it comprises the existing Chanhassen Business Park, the Ward Estate , and in the area where CPT, the Press, and Redmond Products are located. She stated that red areas marked on the map are where the Planning Commission looked on an informal basis of changing the zoning. She stated one area is the northerly ten acres of the Eide property, which is now designated as medium density and the property owner requested that the Commission consider zoning it to R-2 which allows up to four units per acre. She stated that e e e Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 4 north of Chanhassen Elementary, in the Laredo Lane Addition, the attorney representing the homeowner's association has requested that the area be rezoned to PUD. She stated that they are correct in that it was processed as a PUD many years ago and existed as a PUD in 1972. She stated that the Commission also recommended that the B-4 boot shaped line on the Eckankar prop- erty be straightened out. Wallace otto stated that there was a area neighbors in south Chanhassen. residents (attached) which protests and several restrictions in the A-2 meeting conducted with the He read a letter from the the ten acre minimum lot size District. craig Mertz stated that he wrote to the Planning Department regarding the zoning that Laredo Lane and some of the plats that were put in 1970's, and supports the move whereby those sub- divisions where shifted in that PUD category. He stated that he felt it was the fair thing to do. He stated that in view of the fact that in 1970's the Council at least felt those lot sizes were sufficient. He stated that he did not feel those property owners should be forced to accept non-conforming use status because of any changes today. He also stated that he was here representing Lakeview Hills Investment Group which owns Lakeview Hills property shown as R-4 on the map. He stated that on behalf of the owners he is Objecting to the placement of it in the R-4 rather than R-5 District. He stated that the development dates back to 1963. He stated that the application before the township at that time-was for 525 apartment units. He stated that there are approximately 170 units existing. He stated that the owner wanted assurance from the city that when they took some of the land for sewer easements that it was not going to diminish the development potential of the property. He stated that those assurances were given by the staff, specifically, for an addi- tional 350 apartment units. He stated that in the R-4 there is not maximum stated on units, it simply states that each building had to have at least 12 units. He stated that there is a density requirement of 4,500 square feet per dwelling unit. He stated that the owners believe the rezoning of their property from high density is going to diminish the development potential of the property and diminish their property values. He stated that the property should be placed in the R-5 zoning district. Bill Engebretson stated that he is the President of the Greenwood Shores Homeowner's Association. He stated the association felt the Eckankar property should be large lot residential which is an R-lc classification. He stated that it should be zoned R-lb down to Highway 5. He stated they feel it is keeping with the resi- dential area and the Lake Ann Park area. He submitted a petition of people who own property bordering the area. Don Patton stated that there was some question about the R-5 abutting the rop District south of Lake Susan. He asked if that Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 5 4It road was going to be extended from 17 to Audubon, that the R-5 piece be changed to lOP. e e Dacy stated that the road he is referring to is the segment of Lake Drive East and it is not proposed at this time to go straight across. Sever Peterson asked what the rationale of changing the area that he lives from 2! acres to 10 acre minimum? He stated that he is located two properties west of pioneer Hills. Dacy stated that there is no question that there appears to be a market for 2! acres in the rural area and there is no question that additional development does produce additional taxes for the community. She stated that the intent behind the ten acre mini- mum lot size is due to several reasons. She stated that the City is divided by the Metropolitan Urban Service Area line so it separates the city in to the urban and rural service. She stated that because Chanhassen is within the seven county area under the jurisdiction under the Metropolitan Council, they require each community to adopt a Comprehensive Plan and one of the Met Council's major policies is to contain development as much as possible in the existing urban service area where there is a pro- vision for water and sewer. She stated that they have specific density requirements in the rural areas to keep and preserve those rural areas. She stated that as it affects Chanhassen, the Metropolitan's Council policy is one unit per ten acres. She stated that when looking at Chanhassen with 23 square miles and allowing clusters of subdivisions allover the city does put a strain on the city's services such as police, fire and main- tainance. She stated that development does generate tax dollars that goes toward paying for these services, services are being stretched to cover a much broader area than just contained in the urban service area. She stated that the city does have a fairly stringent on site septic system ordinance that adopts PCA stan- dards; however, outside of the urban service area and outside of the area where the Lake Ann sewer is going in, it is unlikely that sewer and water will be provided out in this area for 30 to 40 years and probably beyond that. She stated that staff is looking at long term effects as far as concentrations of the large number of septic systems in terms of ground water quality, etc. She stated that the other reason regarding Metropolitan Council is in the past the city has fought for the installation of the Lake Ann Gravity Interceptor which will run down Highway 41 and angle across and into the business park and into Eden Prairie. She stated that as a condition of that approval, the Met Council has required the City of Chanhasen to amend the Comprehensive Plan to require a one unit per ten acre density in the rural area. She stated that they are also requiring the city to adopt zoning controls to enforce that. She stated that it is to promote the development and filling in of the existing urban service area first before urban services are expanded. Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 6 4It Sever Peterson stated that just a few years ago the Met Council predicted municipal services for the rural area in a much shorter time period than 30 to 40 years? Dacy stated that original land use plan designated it to be 1990. She stated that the communities in the Metropolitan area have to change the 1990 Land Use Plan to the Year 2000 plan because there is still approximately 2400 acres of vacant developable land in the urban service area. e Sever Peterson asked if he understands that the Met Council is saying unless the city does this (go to ten acres), then the city will not get this (interceptor). He asked if that was not black- mail? He stated that he has been a land owner for several generations and he stated that the whole thing is irritating. He stated that he thought they had this put to bed with Ordinance 45 and now Met Council continues to come along and change the rules. He stated that the County taxed him $61 for a tillable acre. He stated that he came before the City Council and they were understanding of that situation for me as a farmer and they were very reasonable in the action they took: however, it went back to the County and the County raised its back up and the state sup- ported it. He stated that they taxed him $61 because they told him he has development potential and now they come along and take the development potential away. He stated that even if they have no other plans than farming. David Halla stated that they have 106 acres. He stated that under the A-2 Districts it shows wholesale nurseries as a conditional use and wanted to know if he has to get a conditional use permit to do the same business that he has done for the past 46 years? He also felt that the Metropolitan Council had no right to come in to a community and tell them that there can only be ten acre parcels in the rural area. Dacy stated that Halla Nursery will be grandfathered in. Halla asked if he wanted to sell the nursery, could they pass that on and continue the same use? Dacy stated yes the use could be continued. Cathy Anderson asked about the change in zoning of her property in regard to a stable permit, it was still allowed? Dacy stated that private stabiles will continue to be allowed in the R-lb district, but as a conditional use. If a stable is operating before the effective date of the ordinance, it can con- tinue to operate. e Dave Hansen, pioneer Trail, stated he has read a number of state and local publications and surveys regarding sewage, etc. and getting rid of the effluents, etc. He stated that the City of Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 7 e Chanhassen could be making a big mistake in gearing the develop- ment around a sewer system. He stated that one of the finest ways to get rid of effluents is with a proper septic drainfield situations that are properly designed rather than opting for a major space eating sewer system. He stated that he would like the Planning Commission to really take a good look at the ten acres versus the 2,. He stated that he is totally against it because basically there is no real foundation or reason for it. Beth Schell asked if the uses have changed for the property that borders on Highway 5 a Powers Boulevard. She stated that there was a concern at the meeting about having a high business district next to Lake Ann Park. She felt that it should be down graded to the lowest minimal neighborhood services. She thought that it would be a supportive services district. Ryan stated that at the last informal meeting there was discussion of changing it to B-2. e Dacy stated that the proposed road will follow the property line to the north to serve the development of B-4 and B-3. She stated that it is also anticipated that there would be a road connecting west along the depression and curve through the Brose property and down to West 78th Street. Beth Schell stated that she is concerned about the number of businesses that could be in that area and why would put it next to a park? Ryan stated that it is also next to major highway. He stated that the Planning commission discussed this again and debated whether to leave it as B-4 or to change it to a high density resi- dential. Beth Schell stated that she would like to see it zoned high den- sity because it is right next to a park. Gary Brown stated that at the corner of 212 by Chaska there is a piece of property zoned A-2 and rop is right next to it. He stated that he would like the rop zoned placed on the property to the corner. Vern Gagne asked if the intent of the ten acre minimim is that eventually utilities will be made available the the A-2 District? Ryan stated that the projection is that there will not be any utitilies in that area until the Year 2000. e Vern Gagne stated that he has had some experience with the sewer situation in Maple Grove and they felt that the sale of 5 acre - Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 8 lots relative to soil saturation and effluents that it was a satisfactory situation. He asked what the rationale was of the ten acres versus five acres? Ryan stated that there was a study done about a year and a half ago, and it indicated that a five acre lot was the smallest it should go and reasonably expect to subdivide at a later date. Vern Gagne stated that from an economic standpoint five acre lots are more saleable than ten or twenty acre lots. Richard Hockdale stated that he bought land about ten years ago, which is within about one mile of the imarginary sewer line, with the intention that he could build on 21 acres. He stated that it seems to him that the intent of the Met Council is they do not want us to build out there and are blackmailing us. He stated that the 2, acres has been working out why not keep it. Dave Hansen asked how the Planning Commission feels about the ten acre minimum now that they have heard all the negative input from the public. He asked if it was still set in their mind about keeping it ten acres? e Ryan stated that we will certainly consider the input in making the decision. David Halla stated that rural land owners represent 68% of the land owned in the city. He stated that they have a majority of the land and felt that their opinion should be listened to. Ryan stated that landowners' feelings are being transmitted to the Council. David Halla stated that his taxes have increased $1,800 last year and he does not get any city services. He stated the taxes are raised and the farmers don't get any breaks. e Wallace Otto stated that he served on the twelve years on Waconia Planning Commission. He stated that when the Met Council first came around to the cities they stated that they were going to be there to assist the communities. He stated that they had all the communities to prepare a plan and then the Met Council sorted them all out and pick out parts that they liked and called it their plan. He stated that Waconia went to Met Council and asked them for their projections of our growth because they wanted the school to last 10 years. He stated that they gave them a projec- tion, the first year the school was completed, and they were overloaded. He stated that Waconia applied for a nursing home permit and Met Council stated that Waconia could not qualify because they would not allow it for anything less than 100 beds. Ie e e Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 9 He stated that they took facts and figures from the community and it showed there was a demand for 100 beds but they would not accept it. He stated that he went to the Met Council meetings and they stated that they could accept 60 beds. He asked them how they arrived at that and they stated they sent two girls out of the office and they were gone twenty minutes and picked up twenty beds. He stated then they tried to figure out how they could arrive at 100 and he said he suggested they spend 40 minu- tes and they did. He stated that they got 100 beds and it only took them eight years. He stated that it the nursing home is full and there is a waiting list. He stated that somehow the cities have gotten accustomed to the ambilical cord of the Met Council and we feel that we can't do anything for ourselves. Jim Belaschi, he lives in Bloomington and bought 52 acres in Chanhassen. He feels that the Met Council is trying to force demand on what they have over built. He stated that they are not trying to work with us, they are trying to impose their regula- tions. He felt that they were serving their own purposes. Conrad stated that the Planning Commission is not playing naive about the ten vs. two vs. five acres. He stated that there really is not a number that is right. He stated that the Met Council gives a guideline and they say ten acres. He stated they have read quite a bit of literature and the technical advice that they have gotten has generally pointed to larger lot sizes, espe- cially in the rural area because it makes for good planning and that it what this body is here doing. He stated that there have been some problems in the past with the small lots sizes and that the larger lot sizes are environmentally better based on data that we received, it makes better for subdivisions later on, and it is more cost effective later on. He stated that he is not just looking at the Met Council but has reviewed other data as well. Dave Hansen stated that when he hears the work "experts" he gets nervous. He said that it seems to him experts over the time period make the most mistakes. He stated that all the reports that he looked at from national on down to the local level, seem to indicate that anything above 2! acres is a poor use of land. He stated that Wright County has made a lot of mistakes with their "large lot single family developments 2! to 5 acres". He stated that the majority of the reason behind this is strictly for sewage and it has been proven that it is incorrect. He felt that the fact remains that a 2! acre large lot is a very adequate size both for future subdivision and the medium use and anything bigger is a poor use of land. He stated that septic systems properly installed are better for the land than a sewer system, it is better for the subterranean water tables, everything right down the line. He asked the Planning Commission to stay with the 2! ftcre lot and to really look into the correla- tion between sewage and the size of the lots. e Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 10 Ryan stated that there have been a number of requests for 2; acre lots this year and one of the major concerns is that the fact that some method of treatment of sewage needs to be installed. He stated that there have been septic systems in Chanhassen that have failed and when they do, the community is obligated to do something about it. Jim Murphy, Lake Susan Homeowner's Association, stated that they have submitted written comments. He stated that they are con- cerned about the north side of Lake Susan. He felt that there was a radical change from P-4 and to lOP which allows bars, taverns, restaurants and resorts. He stated that the present zoning is more restrictive and they would like that maintained. He stated that in terms of alternatives for the new lOP zoning which is north of lake, and felt that it is good planning to have some transition. He felt that the continuation of R-lb which is on both the east and west sides of the lake and around to the north side as one possible alternative. He stated that P-4 was negotiated with the city about this before and would like to see it remain the same. e Mike Gorra noted that the Lake Ann Interceptor is going to go right through the center of his property and the city wants to upgrade the zoning for 2; acres to 10 acres. He said that he was going to fight about the 2; acres. He stated that ten acres is absurd. He stated that even though the interceptor goes right through his property he has to wait to the year 2000 for sewer? Dacy stated that yes he would and that the alignment of the Lake Ann Interceptor is scheduled for an information hearing on February 27th and there will be a public hearing on March 3, 1986 at the City Council meeting. Mike Gorra asked why staff did not tell the Met Council that the people in the rural areas do not care about their sewer and that they just want the 21 acre lot size. Richard Hartung stated that he can't see where there has been a problem with people over building on 21 acres in the last two years? Richard Hartung stated that he can't see where there has been a problem with people over building on 2; acres in the last two years. Dacy stated that part of the reasoning is when there is signifi- cant amounts of residential development and increased density of septic systems, the Met Council has had to make premature exten- sions of sewer systems not originally planned for. Dacy stated that the West 96th Street neighborhood has just finished con- necting into a community system for failed septic systems. e - Planning Commission Minutes February 19, 1986 Page 11 Lapse in sound of tape. Missing approximately 15 minutes. ? stated that she and her husband have been talking about staying in this area and possibly acquiring additional land but there is no way they would want ten acres and she felt that if this was passed, the Commission would be back in a few years making it two acres because it was not economically feasible. Someone asked about future meetings. Ryan stated that notices of public hearings are published in the newspaper and stated that as citizens of the community they have an obligation to be aware of what is going on and make an attempt to find out when they are. e Dacy stated that notices were published in the South Shore Weekly News and there have been articles in the past few months in the Carver County Herald. .She stated that an additional public hearing has been scheduled for March 19th and at that time, the Planning Commission will either, 1) schedule another public hearing, or 2) recommend to the City Council action on the ordinance and map and if they do, it will go to the City Council in April. She stated that the City Council can take as long as they want to review the ordi- nance. Ryan stated that the Planning Commission will review all of the presentations and discussions and make any revisions based on that input. He stated that at the end of that process a new draft will be generated and those documents will be given to the City Council as presented. He stated that the City Council will have the opportunity to make any changes or modify as they see fit. Mary Ryan asked if the draft that was available tonight was the same document as she picked up from City Hall in January. She asked if there had been any changes in it since that time. Dacy stated that there have been minor changes made. Al Klingelhutz asked if the change from 5 acres to 10 acres on the north side of Highway 5 was a minor change? Dacy stated that it was a typo in the document. She stated that the ten acre minimum was decided by the Planning Commission last winter. Conrad moved, seconded by Ryan to table the public hearing until March 19, 1986. All voted in favor and the motion carried. e Barbara Dacy City Planner Prepared by Vicki Churchill March 10, 1986