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1986 12 10 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING ~DECEMBER 10, 1986 Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Steven Emmings, Robert Siegel, Ladd Conrad, James Wildermuth. Howard Noziska arrived late in the meeting. MEMBERS ABSENT: Tim Erhart, and David Headla PRESENTATION OF DOWNTOWN FEASIBILITY STUDY, BRW, INC. Barbara Dacy: The Commission has asked me a number of times what the status of the downtown project is and as a result of those comments, I have arranged for Jim Lasher from BRW to make a presentation about the work that they have been doing for the Housing and Redevelopment Authority. BRW was contracted to do the feasibility study and to prepare the exact study as to the nature of the improvements, water, sewer, storm sewer and streetscape improvements. These types of improvements are basically necessary in the downtown. They have to be done whether we have a redevelopment project or we don't. There is no such thing as a storm sewer system in the downtown right now. We need to update the aging utility ~lines. Out of the public forum process conducted by Fred Hoisington, there have been some recommendations for additional street realignments so BRW has been responsible for combining all of those and preparing a specific feasibility study. Jim will present tonight an overview of some of the roadway designs and some of the streetscape features as well as we asked him to talk a little about the importance of signage in the downtown area. That's been a long standing concern of the Planning Commission and an item that we talked about in the last several meetings, so Jim Lasher. Jim Lasher: Good evening, I haven't met any of you people but I'm Jim Lasher from BRW. We were hired to do a conceptual design feasibility study. I'm sure you probably have all seen the report and probably are a little bit familiar with what we have. I can start off basically with the streetscape elements and how that design progressed and after that is completed, if we have any questions concerning utility design, I'll be more than happy to try and accommodate you on that. Basically we looked at the City of Chanhassen right now and how it exists and how it can exist in the future. There is a proposal from a corporation pending now from CHADDA that outlines a few additional developments that they want to do in the downtown area. When we began to proceed with the development of this project, we tried to work as much with what they wanted and what the existing conditions of the city are now and try to get them both to match, being that it would work with or without the CHADDA design. Regardless of what would happen in that area, we still have a functional, treescaped utility corridor that would work with either existing conditions or any ~proposed. We start off basically with just an entry into the City coming ..,off the Great Plains Blvd.. As you can see on the monitor, Great Plains Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 2 e Blvd. presently goes straight up in this area and you can either take a left or a right on 78th. The proposal now is to put a 300 foot radius bend in Great Plains and bring it up the existing grade and then blend it into existing 78th with a right hand turn ending back this way. What that does is it makes for a much smoother transition into the downtown core without having to do a signalized intersection which this intersection would not be and it is just a stop condition coming from west. Once upon entry, you would probably get to a point where the road design begins to be the biggest element and basically there are two types of road designs and we can get to that after I explain all the areas of the concept of the drawing. As you can see, there are basically about 10 different elements that are at work here. One in a large green star is what we would call the main entry statement. That is the first element that you see upon entry into the City. That can be some kind of a sign, a lighted sign, some special type of landscaping elements. Moving up the newly designed road we have a center core or common point where all the roads come together and I would be looking at something like a clock tower or some kind of vertical statement there that expresses exactly where the center is and that you are now entering into the City of Chanhassen. Moving along the roadway, we have the need for another secondary or another entry monument down at the beginning of West 78th Street off the new north/south collector road which you see proposed in this area. This is another entry statement that says we are now entering the downtown development district or downtown core of Chanhassen. The green in the drawing represents basically all of the ~andSCaping that would occur in the plan. This plan does show the median design with landscaping in the center of the road as well as on both sides. This down here is a detention pond. Because of the storm sewer design there is a need for a large, about 5 acre detention pond. This would have a minimum water elevation of approximately six feet at all times which then would be for aerating. The aerating process would be done with a fountain which would be installed in the center to allow it to not turn green which most pools would do unless we did this. Putting in some lights, it now becomes kind of an entry statement off the new north/south collector that this high vertical, we can get a 30-40 foot jet of water with lighting on it that just has a real strong visual statement. Across from that we have another sign system that we can plug in any kind of business type sign or some kind of an entry monument sign that directs people into the business corridor area here and directs them up into the downtown core from the north/south intersection. The same condition is down off of TH 5 with another type of sign system there that directs people into the downtown or into the existing business park. I think the location of the signage is probably one of the most critical elements of the plan as it announces the City at all major entry points. Not only the city itself but what is going on here. If this could be a business type sign, we can announce some type of a business enterprises on this. If this were a secondary entry monument, we could possibly do something with what is going on in the City at the Dinner Theater or some kind of other activities that would be occurring and that would all be announced at these points so you would need to know what was going on and where you should go from these sign systems. ~Back to the roadway, there are basically two different types of roadways to Wlook at from West 78th Street. One was the center median shown in this Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 3 e drawing and another is without center median. The pluses and minuses of both. In this condition we have a single driving lane which is quite wide, 17 feet on both sides that would allow us for one driving lane and either a parking lane or a passing lane for a left turn, right turn lane. The center median varies from 19 to 10 feet wide which allows to plant continually all the way along 78th Street. What this does, in effect creates a kind of tunnel of chamber sense of intimacy going through the City. It actually would slow cars down if there was this kind of canopy effect and that is what we are trying to do with this center median is just to create a nice green covered town going all the way through the city center like that. In concept B, there is no center median and it is a 40 foot wide paving section and heavy plantings on both sides of the street, Maintaining the median section up on Great Plains Blvd.. I will show you a drawing in a few minutes and you can see where that is portrayed. Basically the 40 foot wide would allow for what they call a continuous left hand turn lane and that would be a center lane that would be striped and allow people to make a continual left or continual right hand turn depending on which way they are going. The median design would allow for left hand turn and right hand turn lanes at all existing curb cuts on 78th Street as well as any proposed. When CHADDA did submit their design, they did match their proposed entries with all existing ones so functionally what they are trying to do as well as what we are trying to do makes a lot of sense. I think the elements of the plan are basically the whole design and the whole look of the City. This is the Great Plains _lvd. entry that now comes around and just hooks into this area with TH 101 and 78th Street connection. With the median planting in this area, once again we are getting a real dense, canopy effect with some colorful ornamental trees and some deciduous and coniferous trees blended in, that kind of gives us a sense that we're just into a main arrival system here and the density of the vegetation will get much greater than it is than most any other portion of the site. I mentioned before the clock tower. This is something that I'm trying just to sketch here just to show what the possibilities are that would look like. Some of the forms that are picked up are from the old church and from the old City Hall building. The signage, this is a main entry monument that I just sketched up quickly. What it does is it gives the City of Chanhassen a strong visual statement that this is a very strong, powerful, stable community with the type of materials that were chosen. I think when you do a sign you have to protray some type of materials that best project what you want to say and stability and community are one of the two strong things that are out here and I think just the type of material that you pick to try and get that point across. We've got a lighted entry monument that is positioned right before the turning point on Great Plains Blvd. The entry monument was located right in this portion at the Great Plains Blvd. turn. The existing road would be going straight along here. As you come in, this up on blocks so this would be much higher, about 8 or 10 feet higher off the road than the driveway. What it would do is actually sit up on a little knoll and it would be a highly visible portion of the site and a highly visible entry monument that says that you are entering into the City of Chanhassen. In aO r d e r to c rea tea n i mag e, its e ems 1 i k e so met h i n g 1 i k e t hat has too c cur to ~nnounce exactly the boundaries of this area and make it different from a Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 4 e majority of the other portions of the City. People will look at the image, will get a little stronger image and this is what we are trying to project. In the removal of Great Plains Blvd. we are left with a 66 foot wide right-of-way which basically goes straight up through at Pauly's and the church. What we are proposing to do there is to create a small square that relocates the old City Hall, which is a wonderful exhibit of old architecture, into a square coordinated point where we have the buildings facing into the small area and the small gathering spaces of benches and just this small outdoor sitting area that is kind of a focal center for resting and it happens to be the stopping point of 78th later on. What we would have to do is take the building at it's present location which is right about here and move it up into this area and do some dense planting and some creating in this area for entry into the church and then some more plantings for a walkway that goes all the way down to that. In doing that we increase the size of the parking lot back there which is a proposed improvement of about 28 cars. By going into that road we would be creating another 12 spaces plus a few more on the end of each of these bays so it accomplishes basically two things that we wanted. To increase parking in that lot, to provide a small pedestrian area that people can kind of gather and start their journey wherever they want to do in the City. The last thing is the water feature. The water feature, as I said before is going to have a minimum depth of approximately 6 feet. I don't know the number but there are thousands of gallons of water coming down as a 100 year event and so it has to be a minimum of 8 feet deep and we have 6 Aeet of water plus so we have a minimum of 14 feet so there has to be some ~ind of aeration system in this lake or pond that keeps it from looking like stagnant, decaying, old body of water and that in turn is what the fountain system would do with the lighting. Once again, the image of entry, this road is now coming off of TH 5 as proposed is a strong vertical statement here to announce, once again, that you are entering into the City of Chanhassen with this pond with some lighting then the signage would be right here by the entry sign. So there are probably 4 or 5 different variables that go into the whole image statement. There is the focal points, there is signage, there is vertical statements and there is some kind of a small gathering space which is pretty much non-existant now and then there is a circulation system. The circulation system is probably one of the more critical aspects of the plan. Presently, you can't traverse 78th Street along the sidewalk on both sides. A couple of proposals which I would like to elicite some comments about is to initiate a bike path system which will connect to the regional path system that comes off down in this area. One alternate is to go in the back residential zone and then bring it back down this way and connect along this edge. Another alternative is to go around the back along the railroad tracks, and once again end up back there at this system. I think either one is probably a functional design. The one that makes this reasonably good is the fact that we do have the school system here which can follow into this area and move over to the new park that is being constructed in this area. A good thing about this one along the tracks is that if at some point in time we want to continue this bike system along the tracks, that is a possibility .s well and can connect up with the larger regional bike path system so here are two alternates in that. As far as pedestrian circulation, we've Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 5 e got 2 or 3 possibilities in that area. Generally speaking, walking along the street would work only if all the buildings were pushed up against the street as it is now. Most of the proposals that we have looked at and specifically what CHADDA proposed does not do that at all. Most of the buildings that push back with some parking in front so pedestrian circulation then pushes back the facades of the buildings away from the road and then once in a while juts back out say at the Riveria, goes along and then pushes back in and goes along the facades of the building. Circulation on the south side will most likely occur within the retail district and the Dinner Theater and back across this way. The HRA, during our presentation with them, wanted us to consider the aspect of putting a 6 foot sidewalk along both sides of the road. That is a possibility. It would cut down on the amount of vegetation and grass that you could have in the area but it could be accomplished. I guess basically that is one of the decision making process that we have to get into a design development is exactly what you are trying to do with circulation. Is it wanting it along the edges of the road or do you want to push it into the developable areas and keep people along the sides of the buildings? That is basically the plan as it stands right now. We have gone through a number of meetings so far and this is just one more in a great big line-up. Dacy: To just wrap up, Jim has identified some of the issues that the consultant would like comments from the Planning Commission. One being the pedestrian circulation system. Two would be the Commission's input as to ~hich roadway alternative for West 78th Street, with the median or without ~he median. Third, there are representatives from the Chamber here as to your comments on the proposed signage scheme and so on. They would be very interested in what the comments would be as to the overall entry statements will be and what they should contain. So those three areas are areas that we can forward your comments onto the Council and to CHADDA. Conrad: People circulation is of interest to me. I don't see in the two alternatives or the alternatives that you have, one of them being the HRA's recommendation, what are your thoughts on people circulation? I guess it is hard to examine the benefits of a 6 foot sidewalk one place or another. It is important that people can walk. It is important that people can move down the street and not get hit by a car but are your considerations aesthetics or what as far as your recommendation? Jim Lasher: I think a combination of the two would be most appropriate. As I can show you in a median plan, which seems to represent the whole concept of circulation at best, what happens if we have 5 crosswalk conditions along 78th Street and along Great Plains Blvd.? If in fact the circulation does occur along the facades of the proposed buildings then at two or three points they would have to come back out to the road to be able to cross at these points here. My recommendation would be that the buildings be pushed up to the road edge to create an even yet a more intimate setting but that doesn't seem like that is going to occur because of the whole liability of retail needing parking in the front of their ahuildings. So that aspect and then putting the parking behind, we're just ~ot getting a lot of good response to that so in my own recommendation Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 6 e would be to do a combination of the two where most of the circulation would occur along the facades of the building where retail establishments do exist. Now is that we apply a circulation path almost 75 feet away from the face of the buidling, we've kind of inhibited crossing over that parking lot to do some shopping so my thoughts would be to run some circulation along the facades of the building and maybe at the Riveria bring it out and run it along the base of the road at this edge at some point in time if we do do, this is a proposed grocery store which mayor may not occur, I would like to see this up so we can have circulation in the face of that and then move back along this edge here. We do have a front circulation system along the existing buildings here which gives you a nice condition right now and it's too bad it can't all be like that but it just can't so I think the idea of putting a 6 foot sidewalk along both sides would probably be ridiculous because it just wouldn't get you what you want to do. You want to promote retail activity and people coming down here to use the facilities. Conrad: The HRA said the 6 foot right next to the street? Jim Lasher: Yes and I'm having a problem with that and that's something we will go over during the design development. Conrad: I guess I would agree with you. .ildermuth: I agree with that too. he green canopy over the street. I like the idea of the center median, Conrad: Yes, that's different. That's nice. Jim Lasher: The thing that it allows is that, 78th Street is a very busy street and it is kind of a safe haven for crossing when you don't have to cross such a large expanse of pavement but you can cross one lane and stop in a 20 foot by 10 foot area and then wait until another lane is clear and cross that one so in all respects it is probably a little more safer condition than the 45 foot wide road so it kind of solves two problems in that respect. Conrad: You are not designing stop signs at this point in time? Jim Lasher: Not yet but it will be part of the whole concept. We will try to do a system of signage that reflects the whole concept of the plan throughout. Stop signs, left turn signs, signs for any kind of traffic, signals should be completely designed. I want to get the complete aspect of materials carried all the way through the project. That is one of the strongest elements we have to work with. Dacy: Another visual item too is when you drive down 78th Street now you have the overhead power lines and power poles, we are looking at the utility company is installing them underground. That in and of itself will 4ije a major improvement. Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 7 e Siegel: Is that median area, say they go with Alternative A with a median, is it going to be as heavily vegetated as indicated in that drawing or is that the plan? Both pine and deciduous. Jim Lasher: My impression is that it will be both pine and deciduous trees. Obviously you need pine a little more sparsely because that prohibits any visual access across the road. A funny thing about Chanhasen now is that for some reason they have this fascination with three large pine trees in groups around the City. There are four or five different situations just in the downtown area so I think you take that whole idea and just repeat it in a few other areas would make the whole city look contiguous and not have them all extreme. Dacy: The cost between A and B, as far as landscaping is like $20,000.00 which is a minimal amount of difference. Jim Lasher: About $40,000.00 just to construct curb and gutter and whatever planting occurred in the median would subsequently go into a wider planting area on the sides of just a solid paved road so in essence we are getting the same amount of landscaping, we're just spreading it out more with a median as opposed to densely populating with trees along two edges which I think is a better condition with a median without question. Obviously we are only providing two or three access points with left hand turn lanes but existing right now are approximately 12-13 curb cuts along 4118th Street. That's just way too many and we have to get that down to central entry points that can desiginate traffic into other major areas and not having each store have their own curb cuttings. It doesn't make any sense so as shown all the way to the left here, there were approximately 3 or 4 curb cuts in here and we consolidated to one major curb cut and with a entry median in the center, again with a little median plantings, allow people to move and park and move into all these stores instead of having just single curb cuts for each specific element. It just makes a lot more sense. It makes it a lot cleaner along the road. Conrad: Any more comments on these two issues? Siegel: Was this walkway going to be also a bikeway? Jim Lasher: It can function as both. I think the walkway along the sides of the road would not be a bikeway. I think the walkway, the one the HRA was thinking about, that was probably just a pedestrian walking system and at some point in time they are going to be talking about where the bike path will go or even if we should have one. Conrad: Why do they like the sidewalk along the street? Jim Lasher: I guess we didn't get into the whys, it was a very late program and we got it done and everyone just made a little list and a few of the people said they thought a 6 foot sidewalk along both sides of the 4Ijoad would be highly functional. Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 8 e Conrad: Retailers would not like that though. Jim Lasher: That was the aspect that I was looking at. If you have to sell any public improvements, not only to the people in the City but to any prospective retailers that are going to come in and if they see us making a very strong effort to move people down the street along the facades of their building, I think that is a lot more visible for them and will think a lot more of it. Conrad: You've got coverage for people on the south side but on the north side you've got walkways outside basically. Jim Lasher: Correct, the CHADDA plan does show an interior circulation system on their buildings. I don't know if that would ever happen though. I didn't count on that when I did this plan. It seemed like that was just one of those lucky thing that they put on which is actually quite expensive to do so that's why I don't think that will happen. Maybe just an over canopy thing like at the Kenny's now or something but I don't think it would ever be able to be enclosed. Conrad: The types of retailers on the north side would be a grocery store and what else? Jim Lasher: Kind of the quick service type things that we saw with the ~kery, dry cleaner, grocery store in the large building here which mayor ~ay not occur. Any of the existing buildings here would be moved into these systems. Some type of hair salon, video rental, something that needs quick in, quick out but yet could possibly get daily usage so that is the things that they are trying to attract to this area. Whether or not they succeed in attracting that is really hard to say. At present there is thinking about an office/retail building in this area here. This is another tough item. I don't know whether they are going to have any success with that. It's a wonderful location for retail. There's all kinds of visibility but there is a real parking situation here as far as they just don't have enough so I don't know which way that is going to go. ' Conrad: The south side of the road would be the enclosed, the walkway would be enclosed? Jim Lasher: Correct, there is a portion of that as you well know that is enclosed now and they are proposing to continue that enclosed parkway with any further development in this area. If, in a temporary condition, we need to put a 6 foot walkway in here until any of this building occurs, that may be something that we might want to look at because there has to be a way to get from Point A to Point B. Obviously, if it's not here, we'll just have to do our improvements then. A 6 foot bituminous sidewalk would just cost a matter of a couple thousand dollars to put in and then get it out when other circulation methods are installed. ~onrad.: Bike traffic would go on the north side of the building is the way . saw It. Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 9 e Jim Lasher: That's one of the alternatives or back around this way past the proposed farmer's market area, ice arena here and then connect back up with this what I call the Old Town Square area. Either option has it's good and bad points but it seems like something should be provided. Maybe because we're probably going to get a lot of bike traffic on 78th Street regardless of whether we have a path or not so that's part of the design where we all have to sit down and decide. Is anyone going to use a bike path here? I can't answer that. Conrad: But you routing traffic behind the stores? Jim Lasher: Yes, to try and get the safest possible connection that we can and running behind the stores would with possible connections into the back of the store areas is feasible but we just don't have the width between what is existing now and what we propose to get. A pedestrian circulation and a bikepath. The possibility of putting just a bikepath along the road and put all pedestrian traffic along the buildings is a third option. I'm not sure if it's a safe option but it is a third option. Conrad: Any other comments on these three issues? The road and people traffice and bikeways. e Emmings: I think it's an awful pretty street and I hate to see the parking right along side of it. I would much rather see something or have the feel of like Excelsior where they have window shops all up and down, they have all the parking behind but I can see that there isn't going to be any onstreet parking which I think is a good thing so I don't know. It's a real difficult thing but I would rather see it behind. The bikepath, it seems to me too that the bikes are going to go down 78th Street and I think if the bikepath goes out this way but folks want to get to an ice cream store, they're not going to follow a bikepath. I think there ought to be a provision down 78th for the bikes. When I first looked at this I thought both paths made a lot of sense and I thought you ought to do them both rather than consider them as alternatives, just do them both. Jim Lasher: So it would be just kind of a circular system around the entire? Emmings: Yes, but I think they are going to go down the street anyway so I think there ought to be some provision there. Conrad: If you are riding your bike to downtown Chanhassen, they are not going to go around the back. If we really want to circulate the bike traffic to the retailers, I think we ought to put them in front of the stores. Jim Lasher: So a combination of pedestrian/bicycle in the method that I described earlier, you see separating the two? e Siegel: I would separate them. Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 10 e . h Emmlngs: Yes, absolutely, I would separate tern. Conrad: You take away all the grass I suppose. Jim Lasher: That's the problem. We're running into like a 10 foot maximum space that we have now and that's not a lot of space to put in trees. Now if we take 6 of that away, we've got 4. It doesn't kill it but it just changes the whole aspect of this thing. That's not in the design development. If indeed you want to pursue that avenue, we may have to change the median and road design. Conrad: I think the greenery on the street though is real important. I think that is priority. People traffic is second. Walking pedestrian traffic is second priority and I would want to see ways for bicyclist to get into town. I'm not terribly concerned about how they move throughtout the the town as long as there are bike racks so they can park their bikes. They're not going to be biking from store to store. They may be walking so if you can get them, and I don't think it's in your design, but if we can get the bicyclist into town, then I think the bikeways is not a priority for them. Jim Lasher: It just kind of takes care of itself and I just hope that it doesn't happen that we would go through and construct a nice bikepath and do some compromising in plantings and then have everyone use the street ~yway. I don't know if that would happen but I think it would be real .ad. Conrad: The last issue that I think we should talk about is signage. Any comments on what was presented in the presentation? Wildermuth: I liked the size of these. I liked the accents of the clock tower. Conrad: Jerri, do you want to jump in or Gary, do you have any thoughts on? Gary Brown: When you're ready, I would like to make a couple of comments. I guess I would like to back this thing up just a little bit to the November 19th meeting if I could for just a second. There were a few comments made there tha t were I guess a 1 i t tle confus i ng to us a t the Chamber of Commerce. I guess I'll start with yours Ladd. I guess your feeling was, I don't know if you folks were mucky-mucky around or I was mucky-mucky around on this thing but the 8 little signs, as far as being legible. I did a little study on this since I read this thing and we've got a capability of putting 22 inch letters in the sign we want to present on the corner. Your basic highway sign on the freeway that shows you where Chanhassen is is 9 inches. That's one feeling I had there. Emmings: What page are you on? Are you looking at the Minutes? ~ry Brown: Yes. On page 26. I'll drop down to Mr. Noziska's... Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 11 e Conrad: Let's follow up on that. What do you think on some comments, as Chanhassen grows, eight signs obviously are not care of all the businesses so how do you see managing that? are going to create hassles. of my going to take I think you Gary Brown: We're not worried about it. Conrad: Wait until it happens. Gary Brown: I guess we're going to have to take care of today's business today and when we get to a number of businesses that are going to require it, I guess we're going to have to jump that hurdle. It's not an easy thing for you folks to decide on a sign as well as us. We've been going through thi s forever. I've been in town here for 16 years and I know a sign system is an ongoing battle which will be for the next 50 years. We had a couple other comments though that I wanted to bring up on this thing about Mr. Noziska's deal here on he wanted a nice sign that said a place to grow or something rather than Joe's Bar and Grill and Suzy's Sauna. We aren't going to have that. I'm just doing this in defense so we can come back to it. Anyway, we drop down to Mr. Emming's comments here as to he thinks everything is fine but limiting the number of spaces for businesses is just ridiculous. I can't imagine why they want to do it. The reason we want to do it is the fact that we don't feel that there is going to be more than eight businesses that are going to be concerned that are going to want 60 put a sign up. If they are, it's going to be real surprising to us ~ecause we've done some testing, lobbying, whatever on it and to get eight is going to be about as much as you are going to go but the one thing that might passify you a little bit is on the top of that sign we will have Chanhassen in great big letters, Dinner Theater. Okay, it's going to identify the City of Chanhassen and people identify the Dinner Theater as being Chanhassen wherever you go, no matter what you do. That's why that. I don't know this gentlement, I wish he was here so I could find out what was absolutely horrible about this sign. I guess we're not developers but we did spend some time on this. Emmings: I know I'm here and I said I thought it looked awful and I still think it looks awful but I don't know if we're talking about the same sign. Gary Brown: This is on the Chamber's part of this and I assume that this commentary stayed in line according to the Chamber because it mentions the Chamber all the way through this thing. Dacy: The copy of the Chamber sign was in your packet as well as some of the preliminary designs that... Emmings: I didn't like the BRW signs and like this one that was presented tonight. Gary Brown: Maybe you guys had two signs going at one time here or .omething. Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 12 e Conrad: signs. We had several but I'm not sure that we're reacting to the right Emmings: Let's assume that the BRW sign was up. That's the one that I said that looks like it belongs on a subdivision. I didn't like it for the City and I don't mean to be discourteous or rude to you either but that was my reaction when I saw it and I don't think I could design a better one but I would try. Let's say that that is sitting out there where he just showed us it would be on Great Plains as you turn up from TH 5. Where would this sign with the business names that you are proposing in relation to that one? Gary Brown: Okay, if you are familiar with the corner. You'll see on TH 5 we have a gasjcarwash sign that faces the highway. Our idea is to take that down and move the sign towards the Hanus property, about as far as we can get it. That will give the people ample time to use their signal and get in the turning lane and get into town. The big problem was and the big hassle they had with the old sign that the City did tear down was that by the time the people saw the sign they were already through the town. Emmings: If they were coming west on TH 5, they would see the sign for the businesses before they would see the sign for the entrance to the City? Gary Brown: I don't know where you want to put the entrance to the City _gn. Jim Lasher: Is this where you are proposing for your sign? Jerri Martin: No, that's the west side. Dacy: That was the former location of the City sign and the Chamber is talking about across the street. Jim Lasher: This is where the other entry is proposed. Gary Brown: On the other side. That's great then we'll have both sides of the road covered. Conrad: Sequentially stating you're right. The Chamber sign would be very close, right on TH 5 and after you pass that and you make your turn in and get close to the railroad tracks, that's when you see Welcome to Chanhassen sign. It's a little bit backwards. Emmings: It seems like it to me. You plan these things. Does it seem like it ought to be working that way? Jim Lasher: It just depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to make the main statement about announcing businesses then it doesn't make any sense. If you want to announce the City of Chanhassen, then where does .khe City of Chanhassen begin and if you want it at the beginning then we've .i eke d the w r 0 n g pia c e . I h a ve c h 0 s en the poi n t w her e I saw the m 0 s t Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 13 e visibility and most aspect to look at upon entering into the downtown area. That was the rationale behind my choice. Emmings: Yes, but you're already in town by the time you see that sign. Gary Brown: Wouldn't you want to put the entrance to the City at the entrance to the City? Jim Lasher: I agree. You probably put the clutter and business point at this area right here would not make an entry statement like this. You just wouldn't move down here well. This entry up in here was more a statement of entering into the downtown core and not entering into the aspect of the City of Chanhassen which obviously includes portions on this side of the street as well. There is a secondary entry monument at this point right here that says City of Chanhassen as well and the main point of this one, because of the increase created at this point, the aspect of visual of this point right here is very strong. This is the reason why we chose this point plus the fact that we already own the land so there was some rationale behind that positioning. If you wanted to do another sign down here, I guess it's a moot point as far as how we want to announce the business at this point here when we do have an entry sign at this position here already proposed and one here and one here and one here. Dacy: They eroperty so Gary Brown: were talking about a sign right here. This is the Ward Estate your introduction is right here. They are on the Legion Property right here correct? Dacy: No, they're in front of the Holiday. Gary Brown: Oh, that's where the old sign was so you're by town already when you see it. That was the problem with the old sign. That once you saw the sign, you're on your way to victoria. We need to announce Chanhassen so you have time to do something about Chanhassen. Am I right? Emmings: I agree with you completely and that's as far as the traffic on TH 5 is concerned that is westbound. Now is the sign you are proposing going to have business names, are you going to have anything for people going eastbound on TH 5? Gary Brown: No. Emmings: Because they can see Chanhassen, is that the idea? What about if TH 169 goes in and we're supposedly going to have a lot of traffic diverted off of TH 5 and onto TH 169. Gary Brown: You talking about TH 212 maybe? Emmings: Yes, TH 212. So we divert it on TH 212, you're not going to 4Iforry about that, that's too far away? Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 14 e Gary Brown: We're not going to live that long. I think a beautiful sign is a great idea but I think you're putting it in absolutely the wrong place. Jim Lasher: I guess at this point we've got to be a little careful with property here because when TH 5 expands there is going to be a major right hand turn condition coming through here so we'll have to think about that. Gary Brown: I guess the idea of going in there was the fact that yes, we have some visibility, the people have something do with it, seeing we have the property already, we don't have to buy any property. Dacy: Maybe the recommendation from the Commission could be that they recommend that the HRA and City Council authorize BRW to work with the Chamber and the Staff to see if some kind of combination between entrance and directional signage can be achieved. Jerri Martin: Ideally, people even stop at my office and say where is the Dinner Theater? Emmings: I don't know where your office is located. Jerri Martin: Chanhassen Office Complex. That is right after you get into Chanhassen so that is the ideal spot to start welcoming them. The next tlfot they stop is at Guy's and believe me he gets the people. Emmings: Who is that? Jerri Martin: The Taco Shoppe. The next stop they make is at Gary's and I've been there at 5:30-5:45 and you can just direct people. Emmings: Okay, if you have the sign with the business names on it, it doesn't tell them what to do to get there. If they are trying to find a certain business and they see the name on the sign, that doesn't help them find it. They are still going to have to stop and ask directions. Gary Brown: We're going to have arrows on every sign. Emmings: Won't they all be pointing the same way? Gary Brown: A majority of them will, yes. Emmings: Well, that have to be already looking pointing to the what's the addressed. for you, it right, that point? I think those are the kinds of problems If you just put your name up there and they are doesn't help them a bit and all the arrows doens't help them either. Maybe it does. Jerri Martin: All the arrows from that old sign did the same thing anyway. ~onrad: Timewise, Gary, you are ready to jump into this thing. ~e approval of the Chamber and you are ready to go right? You've got Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 15 e Gary Brown: Yes. Conrad: What life of your signage do you need to pay for it? How long does it need to be up to make it financially... Gary Brown: Three years minimum. Conrad: How long are we going to be until we really have some of the elements of the plan tonight? We are a ways off from seeing some of these elements going to effect. Dacy: The City Council will be establishing a public hearing date about the feasibility study at their next Council meeting next Monday and that will probably occur in February or March. Council is on a fairly ambitious timeframe to get these improvements accomplished. Again, on the streetscape, where we have the water and storm sewer objective to achieve also so I think we can work with the Chamber over the winter and try to achieve something so they can install a sign this spring or summer. Conrad: Their sign. The Chamber's sign. Jerri Martin: This has been something that some of these businesses have needed desparately for a long, long time and it's continued to build and build and build. They don't know where the motel is. They need some type of direction. They don't know where some of the restaurants are. e Gary Brown: We don't think we've got the perfect answer here at all but it's a start. Conrad: I'm pretty sensitive to signage needs. I work with Naegle all the time and the smallest letter they will put on a billboard is 18 inches. You should not put more than six words on there. You don't have a 36 foot sign so that's where my comments come from. I worry that we really haven't said Chanhassen. That's my biggest concern. I think announcing Chanhassen once you are in it is nice from a community continuity but it hasn't helped any retailer or service establishment and what we need is signage down by Jerri's office and we need signage before TH 101. We need reinforcement signage before right by Hanus property and then when we get into some of the detail signage as far as facilities, we've got to slow traffic down to see your sign and if we don't slow them down, they don't have a chance to see our sign so that's my concern Barbara is that so far the needs that I see are kind of outside the study area. I think we have to incorporate signage requirements before you get to TH 101 and how we actually slow people down. I don't know how we move them to TH 101 and how we tell they to keep going straight ahead to get into downtown but that has to happen and that should be coordinated with what I saw today. Personally, I don't have a problem with the Chamber's signage because I think it may help the businesses but it doesn't accomplish the Chanhassen identity that I would like to see and they are kind of separate issues to me. I feel that the Chamber should be assisted to get that signage up as long as I don't have to make an either or decision. e Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 16 e Gary Brown: Would you like us to incorporate the Welcome to Chanhassen in our sign and of course, if you would like to do that you would like to pick up part of the tab to do that I'm sure. Conrad: I think it's worthwhile, yes. I think that's appropriate unless the City has another plan, I think that's real appropriate. Gary Brown: As long as you have your developer right here, maybe he can come up with an idea that will make us both happy but we don't want to wait three months to do it. Jim Lasher: I think if we are going to have any continuity in the whole sign scheme, we have to get back to the 2 or 3 simple basic materials. To have every sign made out of a different material doesn't make any sense because we need the image so if we've got something going with some stone and some brick and some lettering that I think we need to try and incorporate a little bit of that. Color, texture, form, the whole thing into a sign that you want to do maybe and if there is a lettering style that we looked at that we feel comfortable with, I think we should try and look at lettering style. Gary Brown: lettering. I think it looks better if we stay with the same type of I agree with that 100%. e Jim Lasher: work. Three simple things and if we could do that it would probably Gary Brown: If you would like us to go over this thing and see if we can come to a compromise, we would be more than happy to do so. Conrad: I'm not sure I'm looking for a compromise. I personally am looking for a way that Chanhassen has to make a statement out on TH 5 and so far I haven't seen it until you get into town, which I like also but if I were a storeowner, you've got to slow the traffic down and I don't think your sign Gary is going to do it. Chanhassen has to come up with their own sign to slow the traffic down to say, Chanhassen Turn Right for downtown business. That's what important to me. Jim Lasher: If we step outside the project area and announce the City and then announce the businesses, it makes more sense that way. You alert people that there is a city up here, coming up, slow down, there might be something hot happening there and then you start introducing a series of signs with the same material, lettering, along there that, I don't know if the directional arrow thing makes any sense, maybe it does but just the continuity factor would be so much better coming along this area to just say Chanhassen and then do some directional things if that turned out the best way to do it. LIke you said, just a big announcment and then a couple of small signs or however big the signs should be. After we say this is e Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 17 ~hanhassen, this is not someone's retail district. This is the City of Chanhassen. I think you are correct in saying that 'this should happen fi rst. It's too bad it's outs ide our study area. If we were to enlarge the area along TH 5 to start looking at some alternatives, we can do that. Conrad: Barbara, based on what you hear us talking about, and I'm not trying to raise the consultant's fees, I'm certainly sensitive to budgets and what have you, what would you recommend? I'm not sure that I'm speaking for everybody here either but what do you recommend that we do? Dacy: I kno w the Mayor and I th i nk the Counc i 1 would agree with the discussion that we just had about going outside of the project area and coming up with maybe a more complete identification plan. I think we can continue on a process to at least get you to a point where a sign could be installed that would work for us at this point. The City Council and HRA still need to review these plans in detail but it is kind of a broad brush stroke that the Planning Commission has had. I think that you may need to come to additional meetings before the Council and the HRA. I think they will agree with what has gone on but they need to hear that from you as well. In the meantime you can still continue to do that. Gary Brown: In other words, don't dig the hole tomorrow. Conrad: Are eary Brown: far as costs you ready to? I would say we are. and construction. I think we've got everything covered as Dacy: But you see the Councilor the HRA hasn't decided on a lettering type, stone, illuminated, whatever. They haven't made those specific types of choices. The Chamber has but you have to go that extra step. Gary Brown: I think we should bear in mind also is the fact that we're working with what will amount for the simple fact of cost more than anything. Trying to hold the cost down to the businesses that are going to have to purchase this sign. Our sign isn't going to look anything as elaborate as that but we don't have $40,000.00 to put into a sign either. Dacy: The cost issue, the HRA and Council may want to participate then. Gary Brown: That would be great, sure. Emmings: This is just a suggestion maybe, why couldn't they put up the sign they want with some input. We're all kind of wondering whether a sign is going to do what they hope it will do and how many people will want space and so forth, why couldn't we view it essentially as an experiment to figure out whether it is a good location or whether it is having the desired impact with the thought that it would be replaced once we figure out what the sign will look like to announce the City or maybe incorporate it. Maybe we will learn something from it that will help us put up a ~tter sign later. If we look it as just a temporary thing. I know if you Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 18 e are putting your money into it, you don't want to look but at that point, maybe the City would be willing to participate to clean the whole thing up. The other thing, it seems to me is the design of it, it ought to be done in some way so that a second sign could be put right along side of it that looks like the first one in case the demand for space is greater. It ought to be like a component that would be matched and still look good. Gary Brown: A modular... Emmings: A modular idea so that if you wind up having more interest than you think you do, it can be expanded and still look good. Those are the things that I think I would be interested in. Gary Brown: I would not be opposed to that. Dacy: That is another option that we can explore. Conrad: I don't see a real problem letting the Chamber go ahead as long as we're studying the need for Chanhassen announcement on TH 5. I guess I'm more sensitive timing wise. The Chamber has been working on this for a long time and it will help businesses. Emmings: But it seems to me it ought to be on the condition that if it doesn't fit into the future plan, then it has to get out. e Conrad: That condition really makes you feel kind of nervous. be some negatives to that. There may Gary Brown: It is going to be hard to go up to a guy and say, this section is going to cost you $1,000.00 for three years and he says great and then you say, but, if the HRA comes back or the Planning Commission or whoever 3 months or 4 months from now and says they don't like it, it's going to come down and you're out $1,000.00. We'll have a hard time selling that. Emmings: I don't think 3 years isn't a problem. temporary. I think that is Gary Brown: I don't think it's going to be a problem either because this is kind of an on-going thing and it's been going on and it's going to go on. The sign is probably going to be pretty worn out by the time you get into this street part. Conrad: I have that feeling but then again you never know what the Council and the HRA may do. I think you've got our input on that. I think my concern is that we let the Chamber know as quickly as we can and if we can expedite that and give them some... Gary Brown: Yes, we're basically ready to go. All we need is your blessing. e Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 19 e Conrad: You really don't need our blessing, to tell you the truth. All we're doing is providing some input to some other bodies. Gary Brown: And we appreciate your comments. We want you to like it as well as everybody else. To get your idea. Conrad: Well, you got a few of them tonight and what's going to happen Barb? Dacy: What I was going to suggest is what we can do is schedule the item for the first meeting in January. It's too late to place the item on Monday's agenda but we can send it Gary Brown: Where does it go now, to Council? Dacy: Right, and if they allow you to install the sign temporary pending another review or maybe we could look at in the meantime, between now and the first of January. We'll figure out something. Emmings: I think we ought to have a design competition for that sign. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a sign competition for the sign for Chanhassen. PUBLIC HEARING: ~PREHENSIVE LAND USE PLAN ~~ENDMENT TO ~~END THE METROPOLITAN URBAN ERVICE AREA BOUNDARY TO INCLUDE PARCELS IN MOLINE'S ADDITION AND PROPERTIES ABUTTING CRESTVIEW DRIVE. PUBLIC PRESENT: Don Kelly Terry Atherton 2081 65th Street West 2082 65th Street West Dacy: The properties in question are located on 65th Street and Crestview Drive, west of Galpin Blvd. right on the border of the Metropolitan Urban Service Area line and what has happened, last spring the City became aware that there were septic system failures in some of the properties along the two streets. Originally, the City thought that extension of utility lines could not be achieved without a lift station and besides the fact that it was out of the Urban Service area. The City tried to work with the homeowners as to upgrading those systems. However, upon a petition of members of the neighborhood, a feasibility study was done and it was determined that a lift station was not necessary and that sewer lines could be extended from the east on Lake Lucy Road and serve the properties on 65th Street and Crestview Drive. The Council eventually did approve the extension of sewer lines from the Pheasant Hill Development from the east. We have to go through the Comprehensive Plan Land Use Plan Amendment process to amend this MUSA line boundary so that it includes all of these ~operties. Before the Metro Waste Control Commission will authorize ~tension of sewer pipes, they need Metropolitan Council approval and Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - page 20 e because the properties are outside the Urban Service Area, we have to process this Plan Amendment to include the parcels in that. The phone conversations with Met Council Staff, they have indicated that because of the emergency nature of the request, because effluent in some cases is reaching the surface of the ground, that they will authorize extension of the lines to service these properties. Typically, in plan amendments, some of the members recall, you have to swap developable acreage out and swap in developable acreage into the MUSA area. Chanhasses just does not have any more land available to swap. The basis for extending the line is purely because of the potential pollution and safety hazards caused by the failing systems so in essence this is, we're going through the formal process so we can get Metro Council's approval. Conrad: Show me where the MUSA line used to be and where is it moving? Dacy: The MUSA line is this spaced lines here. vertical road cul-de-sacs along the west, so the MUSA line is outside those properties. Basically it runs along the outside boundaries of the lots abutting 65th Street and then it goes up on Lake Lucy Road so the new 1 ine comes from Lake Lucy Road and it goes down Galpin and run along the south lot line of the lots along Crestview Drive and then go back up on the west side here to match that line. Chairman Conrad opened the meeting for public comments. ~n Kelly: I live at 2801 West 65th Street and I've spent about an hour here with the City Council and you may have seen me on TV and read about the things in the newspapers and basically, Terry Atherton, my neighbor across the street and I are very much in favor of this and unless you have specific questions or you feel that you need more information, I don't think that I need to spend any more time. Emmings moved, Siegel seconded to close public hearing. All voted in favor and motion carried. Emmings moved, Siegel seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Land Use Plan Amendment Request No. 86-2 to include properties abutting and adjacent to West 65th Street and Crestview Drive into the Metropolitan Urban Service Area and that the Metropolitan Area Urban Service Area line be amended to include said parcels. All voted in favor and motion carried. Chairman Conrad stated that this item would be on the City Council agenda on January 12, 1987. PUBLIC HEARING: ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO ORDINANCE 47-AD TO ALLOW CHURCHES OUTSIDE THE METROPOLITAN URBAN SERVICE AREA. .,sen: The background on this is that the members of the Westside Baptist urch came to Staff requesting that they want to move the church on TH 41 Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 21 ~hich is outside the Urban Service Area and we explained to them that churches are allowed in the R-IA District as a Conditional Use Permit but one of the conditions is that they had to be within the Urban Service Area. We suggested that if they wanted to pursue it they could pursue having an Ordinance Amendment. They went in front of the Council and the Council said that it is up to the Staff to amend the Zoning Ordinance to allow churches in the R-1A District outside of the MUSA line. The Zoning Ordinance was first amended in 1976 to allow churches as a conditional use in the R-1A District and at that time, Staff's recommendation was that as a conditional use churches had to be within the MUSA line. We went in front of the Planning Commission and the Planning Commission approved the amendment but they wanted that a condition be that they be on a particular lot outside the MUSA line. It went in front of the Council and they went along with Staff's recommendation so as of today, they are allowed in the rural section but they do have to be inside the MUSA line. One of the main concerns was whether or not a sanitary septic system is capable of handling a church with the uses on Sunday. Staff confirmed it with the City Inspector and Mr. Roger Machmeier that a church actually has less demand on a septic system than a single family residence and now with our new Ordinance l0-B and with the Subdivision Amendment we can regulate that the septic system will be proper on this site and will be able to handle the capacity. They are still in the process of accepting the proposed ordinance. Staff is recommending that you just amend the condition. Right now the proposed Ordinance still has the condition 6 that the property must be entirely within the MUSA line. What we are suggesting is that the ~lanning Commissin recommend to amend the proposed Ordinance to change (e) ~o state that churches outside the MUSA line must provide the following for review. These are the same requirements that we have in the new Subdivision Ordinance for us to determine if the site is capable of handling septic systems and then they also added 6 that it must be in conformance with Ordinance l0-B. Again, Staff is recommending approval of this amendment and we will incorporate that into the new Ordinance. Siegel moved, Wildermuth seconded to close public hearing. All voted in favor and motion carried. Siegel: What specific church is prompting this? Olsen: Westside Baptist. They are right now in the High School on TH 41. Actually they want to move into the Brian Klingelhutz property. Conrad: If this church expanded into a church of 10,000 parishers, our Ordinance will take care of the sanitary sewage problems? Olsen: They would have to come in with a preliminary saying that they are going to expand their amount and we would have the means to say you need to put in another septic system to suit that. Conrad: What would trigger that Jo Ann, just to refresh my mind? A building permit? e Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 22 ~sen: Actually, it would have to show how much gallons they will be using and they will set the site with the actual... Conrad: With a building permit? Olsen: with a building permit at that time but when they come with expansion, they have to get another building permit and at that time the Building Inspector can say you need to increase your capacity and if that means putting in a whole other... Conrad: A lot of churches have schools associated with them. Olsen: We looked into that and they do have classes. In fact, they do have a service tonight and they do have classes during the certain days but they went through all the State Regulations and even then the capacity, they don't have the dishwashers, the showers, and the water that is used still wouldn't be as much as a single family home. Conrad: A school that was operating, not just a church school but a religious, any kind of school that operates five days a week. Dacy: I think there is a difference though between the church and the school. The school like st. Hubert's is day after day after day whereas church activities are maybe one night a week or two times a week. anmings: ~ere? I think Ladd is saying, what if they decide to have a school Dacy: Now remember too that the original application is a Conditional Use Permit so they have to submit their proposed designs, site plan capacity and this is what the conditions are setting out that the City will have the opportunity to review it and say, we are going to base approval just on what you have submitted and any increase in the intensity use will trigger another Conditional Use Permit. Wildermuth: Let's say within the existing structure and they decide to hold a da i ly school. How wou ld the Ci ty know tha t they made tha t dec i s i on or made that change? Dacy: To be honest, if they did not apply for a building permit and there was not any expansion necessary, we wouldn't know but that's the importance of when they initially come in with the Conditional Use Permit that it specifies the conditional use that the City has a right to specify the types of uses that occurs so that we can spell all that out. Siegel: And without facilities to warrant usage other than what you would typically find in a church like that, there is only so much capacity they can generate unless they decided to expand physically the structure, we wouldn't have any reason to worry whether they used it. I think a church has a right to use their property 24 hours a day if they want to don't they ~ust like anybody else so I don't think you can put any kind of restriction Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 23 . whether they wanted to use their facility 8 hours a day or 12 hours a day. Wildermuth: That's just within the existing structure. Siegel: Oh yes, but even then there is only so much potential capacity. Assuming that they are designing their structure to facilitate a full house attendance, what would be gained unless they had something like a gymnasium and showers and stuff like this included in the structure. Olsen: And we would know that from the design. Siegel moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission move to amend the proposed Zoning Ordinance by removing Condition E and replacing it with the following: e. Churches outside the MUSA line must provide the following data for review: 1. Location of two (2) drainfield sites. 2. Two (2) soil borings on each drainfield site for a total of four (4) soil borings. 3. No percolation tests for drainfield sites where the land slope is between zero and 12%. - 4. One (1) percolation test per drainfield site where the land slope is between 13% and 25%. 5. Areas where the land slope exceeds 25% shall not be considered as a potential soil treatment site. 6. The sewage treatment system must be in conformance with Ordinance l0-B. All voted in favor and motion carried. wildermuth: I would like to see one thing added to that. Considering the original building permit or the original size of the church, I would like to see the system design for optimum utilization. Emmings: Could you say that again? Siegel: Wouldn't they be designing the structure for maximum? Wildermuth: I want them to design a structure or design the church to the properly to be used several nights a week besides one, two or three Sunday services and as the congregation grows, all of a sudden you have a church school and a kind of day school and maybe the congregation will grow where 4Ithere are meetings every day of the week. Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 24 ~Cy: How about something like adding number 7, information as to how the ultimate capacity shall be accommodated. That's kind of a rough language but basically asking them to establish what their future plans are and how are they going to anticipate that growth? Would they need a second system or could they just install another 1,250 gallon tank? Those types of things. Siegel: Isn't that what we're doing here is trying to maximize potential for growth of this site by putting in all locations two drainfield sites, two soil borings. In other words, like you said, all of your studies and stuff like this have proven that churches have less use than a single family home with a septic system primarily. Dacy: I think the intent though is if they do intend to expand, a number of churches do kind of submit a phase 1 and they identify the possible phase 2 expansion that with that expansion that either the City require them to come through the process again to make sure that there is another alternate site available for another system or that they submit that type of information to prove at this time that if they do expand, there are alternate sites available. Siegel: I guess that's my question. Are we assuming that these conditions here would be maximum usage of the church and if not, then what Jim said is sort of a redundancy to what has been conditioned beforehand here. ~cy: It just comes down to your degree of comfort level. If you feel ~at is intended through numbers 1 through 6, then you can recommend that that is just adopted. If you want to be more comfortable with it and be a little more specific, you would add number 7. Conrad: Bob, don't you see, of course this is an existing congregation. Right now they are moving and how many people in that congregation? Olsen: I think he said like 200 and some. I believe they design the system, the State Standards are by the number of seats in the church facility. Conrad: So the system will be sized by the number of seats which makes sense. Siegel: That's why I wonder if we're not trying to put more into this than we need to. We're not talking about thousands of people here and if we were, they would have to corne in for another structure. In other words, another building permit which we would also issue another Conditional Use Permit. In other words, why put more into this than... Conrad: Generalize it for the next church that wants to corne in. Here comes another church with a congregation of zero people in it now but they plan to grow to 1,000. e Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 25 ~mings: But if it is sized to the facility, what's the difference and that's what it is. Wildermuth: The issue is what is the use of the facility. I agree the size of the facility is fine. Emmings: But the best you can do, if you ask a person what are you going to use this for in the future, the best they can do is give you a statement of present intent and they can say anything they want to because they can change that a half hour later. I think it should be sized to the building and not to anybody's plans or anything else. If you size it to the building, you know you're going to be fine. Now, whether the building is used 24 hours per day, seven day a week or one day a week for two hours makes a heck of a big difference but I don't know how are you ever going to put that in here? There is no way you can say that that will really give you an answer. Wildermuth: That's true and through Mr. Machmeier's experience, isn't there some kind of design factor that they use in a situation like this? Olsen: They just follow the State. There is also, if they have six bathrooms, then they will have an idea but if there are only going to be two bathrooms in there, there is only a certain amount of use that is going to be done. That really limits evem the number of people and how many hours it is being used. .0 n r ad: I g u e s sId 0 n 't see a pro b 1 em i f we put in a poi n t 7 w h i c h w 0 u 1 d say something like the system would be designed for the maximum usage of the church. It gives it an intent. Siegel: It doesn't make any difference as far as I'm concerned. Conrad: It's your motion and therefore, if you want Jim's vote, I guess I don't know how he's going to vote and I'm not sure how I'm going to vote so do you want to amend it Bob? It's your motion out there. Siegel: I think I'll withdraw my motion. I'll let Jim make a new one. Wildermuth: condition 7. read that. I move that we adopt the Staff recommendation with the Since you have something written down there Ladd, would you Conrad: My comments say a system will be designed for the maximum usage of the church. I don't know if those are the right words but that is the intent. Emmings: Maximum potential usage, is that the idea? Conrad: Yes. fjacy: Is the intent more to try and gage the expansion? Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 26 ~ldermuth: No, I think the intent is that we don't run into a system failure like with these gentlemen here were talking about their problem. I'm just trying to avert or avoid... Dacy: Okay, then maybe I completely misunderstood your intent because... Wildermuth: I'm not trying to anticipate expansion. Dacy: Okay, because then the design standards and how it is installed, Ordinance 10-B and through a Conditional Use Permit, we would make sure that they wouldn't undersize the septic system so it would accommodate. wildermuth: A 200 seat church used every night of the week or maybe three days weeks as well as two services on Sunday. Dacy: Right. I'm sorry I understood. expansion and changes of uses. I thought you were talking about Emmings: We did. We talked about that too. Dacy: But as to how it is designed and installed, I think we can cover it between our Septic Ordinance and the Conditional Use Permit. Wildermuth: Okay, fine. I withdraw my number 7 condition. Let the proposal read as Staff has recommended. ~onrad: Jim's got a different point than I have. My concern is growth between building permits. A congregation of 100 growing to 1,000 but the building was designed to seat 1,000. Emmings: Because of the State Standards that you have. Conrad: So the State Standard says that we design a system for 1,000. I don't think we need point 7 then. Do you want the glory of your motion? Siegel: You already have my motion written down. Emmings: And my second. Howard Noziska arrived at this point in the meeting. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Emmings moved, Siegel seconded to approve the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated November 19, 1986 as amended by Mr. Emmings on page 4 and 22. All voted in favor and motion carried. Conrad: That's it for our agenda items. The proposed Zoning Ordinance carne out to everybody. I think those that aren't familiar with it, you 4IthOUld read it. Any new business that we would like to talk about tonight? Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 27 ~mings: I'm sort of infatuated with my own idea for a design competition for a sign for the City and maybe we could just talk about that for a minute. I don't know if the City has ever done anything like this, but it strikes me that (1) it would be real good promotion for the City, just the competition itself. We might get people that are interested in whatever. Maybe artists who are interested in neon. Maybe talk to the University of Minnesota and maybe as part of their classes in landscape design or architecture, they might want to take it on as a project for all sorts of students. The benefit to us the promotional aspect and it could be announced and be in the newspapers and stuff and in addition, get to select from, instead of hiring one consultant to give you one design and say okay, I guess this variation of this design is okay. You might wind up with 10- 15 and I think if you had that many of them, one of them would strike you as being just great. I think we have a chance to have a great sign instead of just a sign. I don't know how we could promote this or who would have to authorize it. A prize would have to be offered to make it worth anybody's while but it's going to cost you something to design the sign anyway. Siegel: Haven't we already commissioned BRW to do that kind of work and pay them for that? Dacy: The signage design is part of the feasibility study so in essence, yes we are. ~egel: So we have already paid for a professional. Emmings: And you saw what we got. Dacy: But not to the level of detail and that is what I was saying before. The H RA and Co u n c i 1 h a vet 0 del ve in t 0 a 1 i t tIe m 0 red eta i 1 a b 0 u t tho s e items. The HRA and Council would be responsible for initiating that type of program. Conrad: Just a thought Steve. There are very few good designers of outdoor signs. Outdoor signs are a whole different animal than an artistic approach to something that can fit on this table. It is different and I don't think I saw a good design from our consultants but I'm not sure that we're going to see something that is workable from a competition and then are you stuck? Are you stuck with selecting something? Typically when you go out, you've got to offer something for that and if you don't award it to somebody, I don't know what the restrictions would be as a governmental body but a good artist, a good designer would never submit anything unless there was going to be an award so you would almost have to, to encourage the good people, you would have to guarantee that somebody will get it. Emmings: I think it would be worth it. I really do. Maybe the interested businesses people who want this sign, maybe their interest could be accommodated. We would have to set out conditions. What is the location of the sign? Is it going to be electric or not electric? Whatever. You _9ht want to set conditions. Is it going to have to have names of Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - page 28 .~usinesses incorporated into it or not but maybe if you were the names of businesses included, maybe they would be willing money into the City. I would put money into it personally. going to have to throw some Conrad: Bob, do you think we should recommend that the HRA consider that? Siegel: I've talked to a couple members of the HRA and they don't really feel that signage factor should be a necessary judgment on their part. Either more a part of the Planning Commission and City Councilor strictly the City Council decides design and structure of the signage if we're going to end up with a particular type of signage. I think the guy from BRW in his presentation tonight offered their assistance to become a consultant to get a cohesive signage program for the entire City of Chanhassen which I think is the primary think that we want to achieve so we don't have patches of different types of signage going up allover. Conrad: Basically, they could layout specifications that would have to be woven in by any designer. Siegel: Sure, and if the City Council and tells BRW we don't like it, then they will have to go back and corne back with something that City Council does like but I think I would have to reiterate Ladd's comments about the contest. I think the cost factor is much higher than the worth. You're not going to get a lot of designer if you consider the Minnesota logo. ~~hey spent $100,000.00 to date for a consultant firm to corne up with their ~ittle emblem which has gotten a bit of criticism not only from the standpoint of spendings funds but the design of the resulting logo. Emmings: I think we tested the level of interest in this. I just sit here thinking, here we've got the leaf up here, why don't we have a big red and yellow neon leaf on that sign. I think it would be fantastic. Something that really hits you in the face when you go down the road. I think it could be fantastic. Conrad: Let's pass along Steve's comments to the HRA. Siegel moved, Noziska seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:20 p.m.. Submitted by Barbara Dacy City planner Prepared by Nann Opheim ...