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1977 01 26 I" REGULA~ PLANNlNG COMMlSSION MEETlNG JANUARY 26, 1977 e Mal MacAlpine called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. with the following members present: Dick Dutcher, Jerry Neher, Les Bridger, and Walter Thompson. Roman Roos came at 7:15 p.m. Hud Hollenback was absent. MINUTES: A motion was made by Walter Thompson and seconded by Les Bridger to include the following sentence in the Eugene Susemihl public hearing minutes of January 12, 1977: In addition to the verbal information that the Planning Commission received, the Planning Commission also reviewed pictures taken from the inside of the home of Lillian Hague. The following voted in favor: Dick Dutcher, Jerry Neher, Les Bridger, and Walter Thompson. Mal MacAlpine abstained. Motion carried. A motion was made by Dick Dutcher and seconded by Jerry Neher to accept the minutes of the January 12, 1977, public hearing as amended. The following voted in favor: Jerry Neher, Les Bridger, Walter Thompson, and Dick Dutcher. Mal MacAlpine abstained. Motion carried. A motion was made by Les Bridger and seconded by Dick Dutcher to approve the regular Planning Commission minutes-of January 12, 1977. The following voted in favor: Les Bridger, Jerry Neher, Dick Dutcher, Roman Roos, and Walter Thompson. Mal MacAlpine abstained. Motion carried. MINNETONKA CONSERVATION DISTRICT UPPER WATERSHED STORAGE: Bill Brezinsky, Bill Dilks, Frank Kurvers, and Al Sinnen were present. e Bruce Pankonin - Bill Brezinsky has looked at. this report from an engineering perspective and will discuss it. The importance of this discussion is the question and answer period that will follow. The importance of that discussion is not the questions that Bill is able to answer but all the questions he will be unable to answer about the effects this petition ""rill have on Lake Minnewashta. -The-Planning Commission should start a laundry list of their- concerns and fOIWard that laundry list to the Council. This is a joint EcologicalCommd?trteei;~_ prc:inni.ng Corinnission meeting tonight. Bill Brezinsky - We reviewed the report and I did write a letter on January LIth which is in your packet. There are a lot of questions I have that weren't answered in the report and I think what we should do is try to formulate a list of questions nhat can be asked at the public hearing which will be scheduled sometime the end of February or first part of March by the Watershed District. - The purpose of this proposed project is to create storage and retention areas upland from Lake Minnetonka. -By, storing water upland they hope to minimize the fluctuation in Lake Minnetonka water level. It would also enable sediments to settle out into these are-as upland where the water is stored. Most of the areas they are planning to store water in are marsh areas. There are a few lakes. The two Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 -2- lakes in Chanhassen that will be affected are Christmas and Minnewashta. Mal MacAlpine - Bill, just so I have it perfectly clear in my mind, e the storage of this water and how it affects Christmas Lake and Minnewashta, are you saying that the water level of those two lakes would be dictated by the retention of the water that this proposal... Bill Brezinsky - Yes. When they say they are going to reduce the fluctuation of the water level in Lake Minnetonka and they are going to reduce the sedimentation in Lake Minnetonka the affect will be the opposite in the lakes upstream. There will be more fluctuation in the levels of Christmas and Minnewashta became ,of the storage. Bruce Pankonin - What they are going to do is to stabilize the level of Lake Minnetonka. They are going to have a weir with some boards in it or whatever and when Lake Minnetonka drops down a certain level they will open up the water in the upland lakes and it will rush down tho~e streams into those lakes. Bill Brezinsky - Here is Christmas Lake. Here is Lake Minnetonka. Here is Highway 7. They are close. Right now the normal elevation of Christmas is 932, Minnetonka is about 929.5. There is not much difference. Minnewashta is 944. Minnewashta outlets up here. Here is County Road 15. It goes under Highway 7 over to Virginia and then eventually into Lake Minnetonka. What they are going to do is at the outlets they are going to ~ build a dam. The dam will have an outlet. They .., don't have any detail. Both lakes will be dammed at their outlet. Maybe they will have a culvert. Maybe they will have boards across here so they will be able to regulate the outflow. They have the elevation of this dam or dike set and it's one foot on Minnewashta and it's .8 foot on Christmas Lake. In the report they say this will be closed prior to spring runoff. The lakes will then store water up to the top of the dam. The water will be stored there until the water starts going down in Minnetonka. They are going to try to keep a constant level on Minnetonka. Minnetonka gets down to 929 then they will start opening these up in mid-summer in the dry season. Then this will go down. Probably they will do this all summer and then eventually you will be back down to this elevation. Then the same thing next spring. Bruce Pankonin Where does that one foot and .8 foot start from? Is that from the normal level of Lake Minnewashta and Christmas? Bill Brezinsky - This is what we don't know and I guess they haven't determined yet. This is one of the big problems that r have. Everybody that lyes around the lakes question is; where is the water going to dome to on my property? We don't know, they haven't determined e what the base elevation is going to be. I talked to the engineer again today and I asked him; Lake Minnewashta is an outlet, the creek that goes out of Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 ,...3,.... e La,keM~nnew.a.f3'hta"the eleva,tion of the stream bed is 933, are you going to build the dam a foot above that and flood it to 934? He said we haven't determined that yet. It ,might be somewhere in between or it might be higher. You can't ~ell what's going to happen. Dick Dutcher - Could they conceivably lower the bottbmlevel lower than it',presentlyiis'? " We presently'have a natural elevation at which the water outflowscthrough that creek, could they conceivably lower that so they could lower the lake even more than it is now? Bill Brezinsky - No they couldn't. Right now at Minnewashta it's 943 at the culvert that goes under Highway 7 it's 942.6 so you see there is very little drop between the outlet and the culvert under Highway 7. Bruce Pankonin - They are not contemplating doing anything to the culvert under Highway 7 so they know it won't go any lower than that. e Mal MacAlpine - If Minnetonka flood level goes lower why wouldn't the same thing be happening to Minnewashta? Bill Brezinsky - They are anticipating a normal spring and the water levels of the lakes will go up. In the average spring they will be storing water. ' In the normal summer the lake level will 'go down and then when they need water in Minnetonka then they will open these up. Mal MacAlpine - what benefit does this have for Lake Minnewashta? Bruce Pankonin - It seems to have ,a negative affect because you don't know what the natural fluctuation of the lake is going to be. - Les Bridger - What would be the highest elevation when it's at its peak on any particular landowner? Can it be expected to rise a foot,two feet? Bill Brezinsky - Let's asstime',.that they are going to build this a foot above the outlet. The water could go up a ~oot. If you had a 100 year storm after this was built then you would go up another foot for a short period of time and then eventually it'would overflow and get back down and stabilize. If you had a five year storm it would go up .3 foot. Bruce pankonin - The big question right now is,what is the base level. Bill Brezinsky - As far as the individual property owner, until we get this base'known, we don'tkriow exactly. I talked to them today and they haven't determined that and the reason they haven't is they have been working with ten foot contours with USGS maps and with those you really can't tell h<DW much storage you are going to get. You know that between this point and this point there isa ten foot rise but you don't know how it goes. That's the'same'reason their maps in the report where they show what area will be ,flooded aren't accurate. They can't be. They feel that in the preliminary stages they don't want: to spend the'money to get two foot contours. 'It would, cost a substantial amount of money. Les Bridger - The possibility is g00d that somebody will get flooded out. '- Planning Conunission Meeting January 26, 1977 -4- Bill Brezinsky - One possibility out on the end of Red Cedar Point. The elevation .'is 945.8 at his foundation. It would come close. Bruce Pankonin - In a 100 year storm he could be flooded. ~ Bill Brezinsky - On a 100 year storm, yes. Walter Thompson - What is the historic high and low on Minnetonka? Frank Kurvers - What are they going to do with the Grays Bay Dam? Are they going to.raise the level or lower the level? Bill Brezinsky - They don I.t plan on doing anything . They don't say what the fluctuation is.but'it's substantial. Walter Thompson - Under the present situation, for instance out on Minnewashta, is there silt flowing from Minnewashta to Minnetonka? From what I have heard so far if we put a dam there it isn~t going to happen but is it happening now? BilL Brezinsky - The silt from Minnewashta is going to take a while to get to Minnetonka.Most of it's going to settle out in the creek and if you are familiar with it, on the north side of Highway 7 it goes through a swampy area and most of the silt-is going to settle out there. The siltation from the area to Minnetonka would be more pronounced at Christmas, Lake which is right across Highway 7 from Minnetonka. That would get into Minnetonka. It would be minimal out of Minnewashta. Walter Thompson - Does Chanhassen have control. of the outlet of Christmas Lake? Bill Brezinsky - No, it's in Shorewood. ... Bruce pankonin - That's-the. county's responsibility. ~ Les Bridger - This will create swamp land or low land and this will cause more water in these lowland areas, would we be creating' more mosquito problems? Do you forsee that to be a problem if we begin to make rather stagnated ponds here and there? I' can see that to be:aproblein. Bill Brezinsky - I-suppose it would be a possibility. Mal MacAlpine - Is the problem a severe problem in Lake Minnetonka or by correcting one problem are we going to be transferring the problem into two more lakes. Bill Brezinsky - We are not aware of that much of a problem there and we do work in Deephaven and Greenwood. Mal MacAlpine--I keep reading that Lake-Minnetonka is becoming cleaner and cleaner each year and if that's true I would wonder why we don~~t reconunend that they continue to do what they are doing. Jerry Neher - Couldnlta lot of that pressure'be coming on because of the fact that you can take it all the way down to the Mississippi River. Minnehaha Creek was dry last sununer. I would think that the people living around Minnehaha Creek like to see the falls running and the City of Minneapolis particularly. Bill Brezinsky - I am sure there is some interest there and with tit people on Minnetonka too. I don't know where this project originated or who petitioned for it. It was kind of a surprise to me when it came up. Planning Commission ~eeting Janu~r.y 26, .1977 -5- e Bruce Pankonin We received a notice of a public hearing the day of the meeting. Bill Brezinsky - The alternat;ive,listed,in:j::.his report is to control the level of Lake Minnetonka at its outlet. Mal MacAlpine - Greater control of the outflow at Minnehaha Creek an alternative method of stabiiliizing the level of Minnetonka. Dick Dutcher - Page 31 of the preliminary report deals with benefits that would accrue. tt,; '._ e Bill Dilks - My name is Bill Dilks and I am the ~nvironmental Program Coordinator for Carver County. I attended the public hearing that was held at the Biological Institute. I would like to go through the more official stance the county'is taking on the proposal itself. In addressing a letter to the Minnehaha Watershed District the general consensus is that the county is in agreement with the philosophy of water retention and water storage for water conservation practices. That it does have beneficial effects. We do have concerns that we want to address to them that we would like to have them consider and we are taking a posture. to them as we would any governmental unit. They do have the powers essentially of a municipality. They do have ordinance authority. They do have taxing authority. The concerns that weare addressing to them in the Minnewashta,area and this is particularly due to the fact that the county is proposing a park there and we.are limiting our comments to. the areas of what we term as a county responsibility. There are other concerns other than what we are addressing here but we feel those are more localized concerns that should be addressed by the municipality. The concerns. that we've got which may be the, same as yours, one is shoreland erosion due to water fluctuation of water'levels.. What would be the cost of erosion control on Minnewashta ,:on Christmas Lake, on the otherlakes,that are affected in Carver County, Wasserman, Parley, some oftJthe others in the Six Mile Creek basin area. .What'necessary steps would have to be taken to control ,'erosion on these lakes due to that water fluctuation? That's one of the concerns we are 'addressing. The other ques,tionthat we have is the effect on the swimming beaches and recreational usesof the shoreline again' due to..the water fluctuation and that would be of concern primari,ly in the swimming beach areas in the summer time due to a 100 year storm. We would be prolonging ,and storing approximately 33% according to their figures'of that 100 year runoff. You would be storing it at a little higher level and in the areas where the beaches would.. be proposed or public accesses or private beaches, what effect would that have on that beach and what would be the recreational loss-value in relation to that. The third one is, what is the effect on upland terrestrial vegetation-due to the drowning of roots for longer period oi,-time due to that maintaining of a higher water level? -You are not going to know the answers until some of the answers are answered as to what levels and this type of thing. Those are essential the three that we are addressingoas concerns to them on the Minnewashta area. I eould make some other comments to go along with e Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 -6- this in dealing with the history of the project. This project is not a new one. It was outlined in their overall plan for water management which 'Was starbed'in 19,67 and .. finished in 1969. In this plan it identifies in general... this same 'proposal of water retention only it identifies other areas as well. Some of these other areas would be St. Joe, Tamarack Lake, some other lakes within this area. Essentially why it was brought up at this time for consideration was by request of the Lake Minnetonka Conservation District. It was by petition from them. 'It was estimated in their plan that the cost of erosion control devices on Lake Minnetonka would be $20 million. They felt they could minimize that fluctuation and due to the cost benefit ratio accomplish 'some of the same benefits with a much cheaper project such as this one. Mentioning Grays Bay, there are some things being looked at as far as what 'I can understand at that Grays Bay Dam by some reason, 'of which I don't know right now, there are some restrictions" on controlling that level and they are looking at water storage below the dam as well as above Lake Minnetonka. There are many of her areas which they are planning on storing the water. Water storage from Christmas 'and Minnewashta would comprise about 15% of the total storage. The majority of it would take place in the Six Mile Creek area. Bruce Pankonin - I think we should recognize from the onset that this is really implementation of national policy flood control. This is all part of the Mississippi Drainage Shed and' it goesfrom New Orleans' all the way up and A it's a hational policy to keep the water on the land ... as long as possible. I think Chanhassen has recognized this in the past with our topography and that's why we require all developments to come in as a PUD so that the developer' can save these upland storage areas and not have to fill'them in to put houses on. We will give him density credits. It not only ands to the aesthetics of the project but it serves for this flood water retention, wildlife habitat, preservation 'and'all of that. This proposal isn't new to the City of Chanhassen. I think philosophically keeping the water on the land as long as possible ~hould be a goal of the City but if it has'so many negative affects, in this particular case, we may have to take a look at some of the issues. Dick Dutcher - The question of sedimentation of our lakes, you said with a flow through lake it could be a problem but in our case as regards to Minnewashta and Christmas there would not be substantial sedimentation even if this were. ~. Bill Dilks - From experience if you look at a lake like Minnewashta, that the settling of sediments takes place here naturally as it exists now and the increase is sedimentation is not going to take place-or itwbn't take place to a significa..at degree to have this SUbstantial impact. The problem'" where they are addressing themselves to sedimentation is more in the flow through area where you have got a creek running in and a creek running out where the lake is flushed' out periodically. If you store the water you e Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 will be entrapping the sediments to a large degree. This is one of the areas I was looking at. Dick Dutcher - You mentioned also that there might be some positive affects as it regards wildlife. Bill Dilks - The areas that they are talking about, say on Minnewashta or Six Mile Creek area, if you look at maintaining that level below what would be a recorded flood level, which is another question that should be asked, what is the flood level for Lake Minnewashta plus what is the normal high water mark, what's the average high water mark, those kinds of figures have to be identified and should be identified for your own information for other projects so that you don't end up with a problem like they have in Washington County where you have got a natural flood level but people ignored it and built on it. For the spring period what you would be doing is retain that water in your marshy areas primarily and creating a better nesting habitat for water fowl and shore birds, also you would be creating a better spawning habitat for fish such as northern pike. -7- e Mal MacAlpine - What are normal procedures Bruce. They make this proposal. We review it and make the laundry list of questions that still must be answered then we would make our motions and recommendations to the City Council. What is the next step? Bruce Pankonin - The Council would formulate an official city response to this and present it to the Watershed District. Mal MacAlpine - How much pressure can they bring to bear to forcing something like this through? Bruce pankonin - There is a lot of subjectivity involved in this. No one is going.to debate the philosophical need for storing the water on the land but when you get in the area of subjectivity; h~w high should the weir be, how much water should be stored in Lake Minnetonka to create a certain level of pleasure. These are subjective value judgments. We are not_getting into specific facts to even measure the effects on our two lakes. e Les Bridger - I would like to hear from the Ecological Committee and what their feelings are on this. Dick Dutcher - You have got the minutes of the Ecological Committee and in response to the very cursory review that we made of it. T went through the report and noted a number of areas where I had questions. On page 8, paragraph 4, the last sentence on the paqe says,"'.t'he available land use plans promulgated by public'agencies,-were. reviewed~toa.v6id possible conflict with future development.,}DUi.ans in areas adjacent to proposes storage sites and connecting drainage ways." I would like to know whether Chanhassen's land use plans were reviewed. I believe they were not and I don't believe the county, at least so far as some agencies of the county are conce;r:ned,were consulted either. Bruce pankonin - I don't believe that's true. We have quite a bit of interaction' with the watershed district on any plan amendments or plan adoptions through the Metropolitan Council's review process these watershed districts Planning Commission Meeting January 26., 1977 -8- . are notified of any contemplated plans. Dick Dutcher - Ifthat.'s the. case'then why was this such a surprise? Bruce Pankonin.. I don't know. They are talking of City Plans.' They.. took into account city objectives for land use into .t.heir planning. Whether it ..represents that or. not your question was did they take.a.look at Chanhassen's City Plan and I would say they probably did. Dick.Dutcher - On page 10, paragraph 4 it says, "Runoff coefficients used were based on estimated ultimate development wherein. .i t was assumed 10% of the total basin would be urbanized." Are they assuming that 10% of Chanhassen in the flood plain area that they are talking about is to be urbanized? Bruce Pankonin - I think in that case they are talking about 10% of the Lake Minnetonka Watershed will be urbanized by a certain year. In Chanhassen we pretty much see the urban area right now that will drain into Lake Minnewashta, where the sewer lines are right now is about it because we are not anticipating Lake Ann Phase III to open up the southern part of the lake south of Tanadoona to urbanization between now and 1990. Dick Dutcher - I appreciate that Bruce, but these runoff coefficients which relate directly to the table on Table I which says how long it's going to take for this to come down after it, reaches its flood plain level are critical because if they are assuming that only 10% of the area in this area (Minnewashta Area) is going to be urbanized and in fact it turns out to be more, which I think is ~ consistent with our land useplan~ then we've got an .. even more severe potential problem if that supposition is the one that was made. Bill Brezinsky - I think it's a good question whether they are basing this on what it is now or what it's going to be in the future. Looking at the runoff coefficients that they are using in Table I, they are quite high. It seems that they are assuming that the area, at least around Minnewashta .and Christmas Lakes, will be residential. Bruce pankonin - Dick, I can get you some numbers but in terms of surface drainage into Lake Minnewashta from the Chanhasse area about half of the lake is urbanized right now. There will be some upland urbanization that will fall back into the lake. I know how many homes we have right now around Lake Minnewashta. I know how many sewer ,units we will have that will be draining into ,Lake Minnewashta and you are not going to see a real significant increase. It may double but in terms of real numbers. Dick Dutcher - All I am doing is recounting some questions that occurred when one reviews the report. I think this should be investigated one way or the other by someone to offer us some .assurance that their projections are reasonably. accurate. On page 26, the first paragraph, it says, a this deals with construction of the retention basins,.. lightning the water load entering Lake Minnetonka during spring thaw ,and intense summer storms, "These basins will form a small reservoir behind the weirs and form their own ponds of standing water." What does this Planning Commission Meet~ng J~nu~ry 26, 1977 -9- e do to Chanhassen's lakes during these times? Do we have docks floating away after they have been put in in the spring because of sharply rising lake level? Bruce Pankonin - This gets back to our initial question, what is the base elevation? Dick Dutcher - On page 32, thesecondand>.fourth paragraphs, this deals with the amount of water that is going to be retained and how much more could be retained there. They seem to be inferring in those two paragraphs that it's possible that the elevation of the ponding levels in the upstream basins would be raiseddor could be raised even higher than they are talking about. For example in number four it says "Additional storage capacity would be available if at selected sites allowable ponding levels could be increased above ordinary high levels at least for occasional use during abnormally high runoff events." What that says to me is that that one foot is for the norm and we may kick mt up a little bit higher , for the unusual. Bill Brezinsky - It sure does infer that.' I think Bill mentioned and I think they say in the report that this is the first stage of the storage thing ahdthey are going to be adding additional areas both upland from Lake Minnetonka and downstream. You are right about number 4 they may raise it another half a foot. e Mal MacAlpine - I think we have got several points that we have talked about here that may not represent a laundry list but are probably the key issues and the ones that are going to" eventually decide what we are going to propose to the Council~ I just recapped a few here and let's add to this list. We talked about not really knowing what the base level is that they are talking about. We have talked about some positive affects that the basic positive affects that we saw for Minnewashta and Christmas Lakes-would: be in the area of improving spaWning gDouhds for fish and natural habitat and that seemed to be-the only positive tHing'that we talked about that would beaffecting'Christmas Lake and Minnewashta Lake. Walter Thompson - You would be improving-recreational areas if you , raised the level,- would you not? Mal MacAlpine - No, we indicated that might be a negative because by raising and lowering the water level that could have a negative affect on the Minnewashta Park where the swimming area would be placed, that could be a negative affect. Dick Dutcher - There are a number of swimming beaches as well as a couple of resorts on Minnewashta that might be affected by that as-w-ell. Mal MacAlpine - We talked about the shoreline erosion as a result of the level rising and lowering well beyond what would be normal. Bruce pankonin- Just to underscore that, a lot of Lake Minnewashta as you know_drops down severely to the lake. The erosion will have a significant affect where you have the" sharp edg-e-. Mal MacAlpine - Someone brought up the'fact that we don't know what flood levels they are going to be considering above e Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 -10- the base level. I am not sure we quite understood what that meant technically, Bill, of why the flood levels ~ , would have that much of a bearing on this. ,., Bill Brezinsky - I guess this has to do with the base level. I really want ,to know what the height of the weir is going to be at the outlet. Mal MacAlpine - Those are the key issues that we seem to be narrowing down to. If anyone has any others they would like to add. Dick Dutcher - I think Bill Dilks raised some questions about the possibility of increased shoreland erosion. Bill Dilks - Along with that would be the cost of additional protection because if somebody already does have erosion control device and the water goes above that or substantially below it,' it could either undermine it or come over the top of it. Who would bear that cost? It would be a cost of the project, it would bea cost of the property owner. If you have an increased erosion problem where there is no protection devices who would bear that cost? You could be looking at $100 a foot, $100 ten feet or whatever of shoreline land depending on the area. Mal MacAlpine - The thing that bothers me is, is there really this type of a need? That's the critical thing here. Do we have to be looking at putting these types of actions into play to control the level of Lake Minnetonka with the one positive thing they are saying is going to happen is the sediment will be reduced. Bill Brezinsky - The big thing is by decreasing the fluctuation in Minnetonka they are going to mitigate the erosion in Lake Minnetonka. This is the main reason as I see it for this project and they have some numbers in the report that if it costs so much a foot for erosion protection on Lake Minnetonka and there is so many feet of shoreline, it's going to cost $?, this is the main reason. Dick Dutcher -I think our concern is what's it going to do to Chanhassen. We can say, we recognize you have a problem but we don't think you should create a problem for us. Mal MacAlpine - Who is funding this? Bruce pankonin - People in the Watershed District. The Minnehaha Creek Wanershed District. Dutcher and Hud are the only ones that live in the Minnehaha Creek Watershed District from this group. What percent of Chanhassen is in this? I would say approximately 2~ square miles. Three square miles would be pretty close. e Mal MacAlpine - Bruce Pankonin,""" Bill Brezinsky - Les Bridger - We discussed briefly an alternative and that would be at the outflow point of Minnetonka to erect a new dam or something so!as to be able to raise the water level, how feasible is that? Is it a viable alternative to look at that? Bill Brezinsky - I don't know what they have done or if they plan on ~ doing anything. It's mentioned in the report that th~ is an alternative. They don't say anything more about it. They don't say why they aren't considering it or why it isn't feasible. Maybe someone won't let them do it. I think that's one question that should be asked. e e e Planning Commission ~eeting January 26, 1977 -11- Walter Thompson - Is there a time schedule on this proposal? Bill Brezinsky - They are going to hold another public hearing the end of February, the -f ir st part -- of March. . - They haven't got a date set. Everybody that is affected will be notified a couple weeks before it happens. Mal MacAlpine - This public: hearing is called-by who? The watershed district? Bill Brezinsky - Yes. Mal MacAlpine - This is going to obviously affect residents of Chanhassen, are you saying everybody will get a notice? Bill Brezinsky - Everybody will get a notice. Anybody that's got to pay for this shbuldget a notice. Bill Dilks - I think based on the way they were going to handle the other public hearing was that the affected property owners on the water 'storage or retention'areas would be notified. If they were to notify all the tax people they would be notifying half the pG.pulation of the City of Minneapolis as well because the taxing district includes the entire watershed of Minnehaha Creek as weI1." The taxing for this project as benefits would go from one end to the other will be spread evenly through the entire watershed district. Mal MacAlpine - They are implying that the cost really may not be as negative a factor as one might think to the property owner. Bill Dilks - I am sure that they could compute out any figures based as to a tenth of a mill or whatever it would be. I think they would only be notifying the affected property on those retention or storage areas. Bill Brezinsky - He told me everybody in the watershed district but like you say, that's an awful lot of people. Ma~ MacAlpine - Where is the public hearing held? Bruce Pankonin - At the Freshwater Biological Institute in Navarre. Dick Dutcher - Did you get the county's comment and Bruce's comment regarding the adverse impact on upland terrestrial vegetation? Bruce Pankonin - Also aquatic vegetation. We want to know what affect it's going to have on it. Dick Dutcher - You prefaced some of your comments by saying that you are dealing with the county's concerns, what should we as a municipality be dealing- with? What specific areas should we be getting into that you would not have any concern about. Bill Dilks - We are trying to take a look at the broadernconcerns. Bruce pankonin - until we know the affect we really can't make any value judgments on it. One thing that struck me as odd is the very low dollar amount in their cash flow for easement acquisition. If they are going to raise Minnewashta up a foot they are going to be taking away peoples property. They had something like $49,000 for easement acquisition. If Prilliman's house is flooded there is the whole wad blown. I am really concerned about, when we know the affect, just compensation to property owners~ It shouldn't be a give away program even though there are laws that regulate lakes. Bill Dilks - I think that's a good concern. I think why their figures are so low is that the levels that they are going to fluctuate the lakes at would be within the natural flood level. Therefore, they felt that the water storage to that Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 -12- flood level point would not require ea~ement payment. Bruce' Pankonin - 'We don't know', that. Bill Dilks - I know ,that's the question. . _ Mal MacAlpine - When they say flood level,' what do they describe as th~ flood level? Bruce pankonin -That'would be the point where vegetation changes from aquatic to predominately terrestrial. If they flood up to that point fine, that's the natural level of the lake but yet the unusual storm which has caused a natural level to be established is going to have an affect and they are not cranking this into their formula. ' Bill Brezinsky - If you-have a five year or ten year storm or 50 year or 100 year storm' the lake isn't going to raise any higher than it would without 'the dam. The water is just going to be there longer. This is what they are saying. Bruce pankonin - How can he say that if he doesn't know when the storm is going to hit? Bill Brezinsky - It's fine if you are not saying we"" are going to close it in the spring and keep it closed until it fills up and something else comes :along. Dick Dutcher - If you had this 100 year storm after the lake"is filled up. Bill Brezinsky - Then you go up a foot. Dick Dutcher - This question I noticed in their computer program where it says time ' to" recede the .2 of a foot, the maximum hour that they'use is 18720 and they don't go beyond that. It's at least 13 days for: it go get down to that. after the storm~ I think it would be interesting to no~ what in fact, based on their projections, those times might be. Is it a month, is it two months, that it would take using. this runoff coefficient that they have used. Bill Brezinsky - As far as their runoff coefficient, that's important. What they are basing that on. If they are basing on what we have got now or what we are going to have later after the area is urbanized perhaps we have storm sewers going into these lakes which would intensify the runoff considerably. Mal MacAlpine - I would like to just ask the Commission members now their view point or key points tha t they feel have been brought up. Walter Thompson - I don't know as I can add anything to what has been 'said. I feel that I'm still short knowl Edge of what are going to finally wind up recomme rdin g. Jerry Neher - I would be interested in reading the whole report. I think Dutcher brought up real good points. Possibly if we all got a chance to read the report each one of us could find something more. Walter Thompson'- !' think we are getting into a very technical situa tion here, wat'er levels, 100 year levels, and there is a whole lot of things that even'if I knew the answers I don't know whether' I would' make a decision 0 r not. a Bruce pankonin - We have one copy of the report and I have asked for ~ more. Dick Dutcher - I did go through it and developed some questions as a result of it but I think your point is very well taken Walter, it's going to take someone who has got some e e e Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 -13- knowledge of, particularly in analyzing these tables, to determine what the full impact of this thing is going to be and even if you had that knowledge I don't think that with the elevations they are using even an educated person would feel to come up with a meaningful analysis of it. I think the point is that most important question is, we need more information. Mal MacAlpine - Would we be in order to call upon Bill to come up with a proposal to outline the key points that we seem not to be able to resolve in our own mind. Bruce Pankonin - I think you hit them all and with Bills report. The City Council will be considering this issue at their next meeting. It's going to be very simila r to this meeting and we are going to look kind of dumb, we do nIt any answers for you, we don't know what affect it's going to have. Roman Roos - We know the effects hut we don't know wha t impact it will have on each one of them. We could make a recommendation based on subjective ideas that we discussed., Dick Dutcher - Would it be fair to ask that an environmental impact statement be prepared? Bruce Pankonin - I think this is really the only way they are going to get at it so they can put a map on the wall and say well, here is Lake Minnewashta and if.. this proposal goes through Lake Minnewashta is going to 1 CD k 1 ike this, it's going to have this affec t on everybodies property, it's going to have this affect on this amount of aquatic vegetation, this amount of affe~ on terrestrial vegetation. Here are some other ways we can do it. At this point in time all we can say is register concern. I think it's most appropriate and you would think the government would have to fac e the same rules developers have to play by. Bill Dilks - I think you could request at least an environmental assessment. Bruce Pankonin - The assessment most definitely. Dick Dutcher - Could we summarise those concerns and say, because of the above concerns we would recommend that the feasibilEY of requesting either an environmental assessment statement or an environmental impact statement be pursued by the Council? Bruce pankonin - You could make that kind of recommendation. Dick Dutcher - I'll make that motion. Walter Thompson - Is the Council the logical one to develop the impact statement? Dick Dutcher - No, that they request it. They will be the official negotiating body with the Minnehaha C reEk watershed District. Bruce Pankonin - If they want to get involved. Our C mnc il is the logical one to carry the banner. Mal MacAlpine - Dick, would you be in a position to make a motion identifying the concerns we discussed? Dick Dutcher - I'll move that in view of the aforementioned concerns the Planning Commission recommends to the City Council that they request either an environmental assessment statement or environmental impa~ statement as to the effect of the proposed project on land, water, and shoreland areas in the City of Chanhassen. Planning Commission Meeting January 26, 1977 -14- Bruce pankon;Ln - ;r Wa,~ ~ust going to say, the Planning Commiss;io n has concerns in these areas and the Council should seek answers to these questions, what affec t will it have in these areas. I think mentioning impact statement 4It and environmental studies at this time might be premature. We have legitimate concerns about the growth of our city and what affect it will have in these areas and we should have some answers. Roman Roos - Is this not a very preliminary report at this point in time? Dick Dutcher - It's not that preliminary. We are dealing with the same kind of situation we dealt with with the Metropolitan Council on our Open Space Plan. I am scared to death of this because they have got the end of February or perhaps a little later where they are going to have that second and fina 1 public hearing on this thing and away we go. with the time lag with meetings and all of that I am scared to death that we are not going to have enough time to adequately respond. Bruce Pankonin - We know that we probably won't get any more information between now and the public hearing and I think it's most appropriate that they City Council stand up a nd say, we have these concerns about this. Jerry Neher - I would think that those answers should be in our hands or the City Council's hands so that they can be studied. Dick Dutcher - I agree with you but as a practica 1 matter that isn't always the way it works. A motion was made by Dick Dutcher and seconded by Jerry Neher that due~ to the aforementioned concerns, the Planning Commission recommends thaiW an effort be made to obtain sufficient information to evaluate the effects on the ecology of the City of the proposed project. Motion unanimously approved. ENERGY CONSERVATION: The City Planner asked members to consider holding meetings at 7:00 p.m. and cutting back to one meeting a month. Members felt they are so far behind on the Comprehensive Plan that two meetings are necessary. WATERSHED COMMISSION: Members discussed forming a specialized commission or committee to deal with everything that relates to the lakes and lakeshore in the City. MINUTES: Exhibits A and B of the January 13 Ecological Committee minutes should be included in the next Planning Commission agenda packet. A motion was made by Les Bridger and seconded by Walter Thompson to note the January 13, 1977, Ecological Committee minutes. Motion unanimously approved. A motion was made by Roman Roos and seconded by Dick Dutcher to note the January 10, 1977, Council Minutes. Motion unanimously approved. A motion was made by Walter Thompson and seconded by Les Bridger to adjourn. Motion unanimously approved. Meeting adjourned at 9:10 p.m. e Don Ashworth City Manager