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1978 11 29 e e e I.. REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING NOVEMBER 29, 1978 Roman Roos called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. with the following members present: Pat Swenson, Dick Matthews, Walter Thompson, Jerry Neher, Mal MacAlpine, and Tim Stone. MINUTES: Walter Thompson moved to approve the November 15, 1978, Planning Commission minutes. Motion seconded by Mal MacAlpine and unanimously approved. Pat Swenson moved to note the November 6, 1978, Council minutes. Motion seconded by Jerry Neher and unanimously approved. Walter Thompson moved to note the November 20, 1978, Council minutes. Motion seconded by Jerry Neher and unanimously approved. PUBLIC HEARING PRELIMINARY PUBLIC IMPROVEMENT FEASIBILITY STUDY DETERMINATION SOUTH AUDITORtS SUBDlVISION #2 Roman Roos called the hearing to order at 7:45 p.m. The following interested people were present: Jeff and Carol Johnson, 7604 Erie Wayne Hagman,7602 Erie Clark Horn, 7608 Erie Donald Schmieg, 7703 Erie Paul Rojina, 220 West 77th Street Eugene Coulter, 7550 Great Plains Blvd. Mike Sorenson, 7606 Erie Fred Coulter, 7616 Frontier Trail Curt Robinson, 202 West 77th Street Bill Brezinsky The Assistant City Planner read the official notice as published in the Carver County Herald. This public hearing was ordered by the Planning Commission and was brought about due to a subdivision request by Mike Sorenson for the rear portion of his property at 7604 Erie. Mr_. Sorenson is proposing to subdivide his property west of the existing house and gain access to a public street via a dual usage driveway and city sewer maintenance easement for the storm sewer holding pond at the southwest corner of the Sorenson property. Because of the apparent development potential of surrounding properties in the general area, it was staffts opinion that prior to subdivision, an alternative method possibly involving public improvements in the form of streets, sewer, and water be considered so as not to prematurely foreclose on the developability of those surrounding properties. Bill Brezinsky - This is a preliminary feasibility study. Mr. Sorenson is proposing to build a house on the back part of his lot and gain access by a private driveway. In looking at the area, we felt that this could be a possibility in the future that other people might want to have private driveways. Therefore, the Planning Commission ordered this public hearing to test the sentiment of the people in the area towards a public street improvement project through that area. The city street, if it was built, would be 28 feet wide with concrete curb and gutter and cul-de-sacs would have 80 foot ~ Planning Commission Heeting November 29, 1978 -2- diameter. In looking at the area and walkin8 the area, this has not been an in-depth study, we feel that the location of the road within this area is pretty well ~ fixed by the topography. The entrance to the road from,., Frontier Trail would be near the bottom of the hill. The road would follow the low area, the sanitary sewer line. You get down to the east/west connection, this would be located just north of the Hagman property and we feel that this would be the best location. This would cause the least disruption of the area. A cul-de- sac to the south is proposed. We have shown it looping over to the west across the Hedtke property with a cul-de-sac partially on the Hjermstad and partially on the Hedtke property. This arrangement would allow development of, there is two lots on both the Hjermstad and Hedtke properties. The road wouldn't necessarily have to be built at one time. It could be built in stages. The estimated total cost of the street would be ~45,000. If this was spread against the abutting properties the charge would be $17.50 per foot. The existing sanitary sewer would provide trunk service to the entire area and lateral service to the lots abutting the north/south leg and to the Sorenson, Hagman and part of the Hedtke property. The total cost of $20,000 would result in a cost of about $800 per lot. A six inch watermain would be installed under all the street sections. The total cost of the watermain 4It would be $29,000 and would amount to a cost per lot of $1,160. Trunk sewer and water units at $320 and $380 would be assessed all lots developed. If the feeling is positive toward this project, a recommendation would go to the Council to order a full feasibility study and the Council would hold a public hearing and then they would order the project. If nobody wants it, maybe it won't go in. The Planning Commission and the Council could grant a variance to Mr. Sorenson, I am not saying that they will, but they could. Mal MacAlpine - How many property owners would be assessed? Bill Brezinsky - Eight property owners. Roman Roos - I came here representing my Aunt, Mrs. Hedtke. She never got no letter or information on this thing and they have got her land divided up with a cul-de-sac on it and what have you. What's the deal on something like that? What are they trying to do? I got a letter in the mail and they had it worded so that an ordinary person could not understand what the hell they were even talking about. ~ Mr. Sorenson came before the Planning Commission to take ,., a look at a parcel of land that he wanted to build on, on the back of the existing dwelling that he has now. We took a look at the overall area in respect to the land to the north of the Hagman property also. the city holding pond, Paul Rojina - Planning Commission Meeting November 29, 1978 -3- - the easement that they have got there and we thought it would be an opportunity to take a look at the overall situation for the development of a road through there. What we tried to do was present a road situation that would really permit the future development of that property to the north as well as a viable answer to Mr. Sorenson's request for subdividing his property. I guess it would pertain to several other landowners there if they might want to divide their property. What we have in essence is a public hearing for a feasibility study and what we are trying to do tonight is get the general comment from the public, pro or con and if it is a positive nature we would go ahead and recommend that the Council order a feasibility study in this area. Bob Waibel - I used the tax statements at the courthouse. Paul Rojina - I believe just looking at the map you can see who all lives down there and what property you are going on. Mrs. Hedtke's name isn't all that hard to spell I don't think. - When this pond was put in last year, I don't know who at village hall gave them permission to tresspass over my aunt's land and destroy it and there was nothing done about refixing it .<. The pond is partly on her land and Bill, how much did Mr. Sorenson get paid for putting the pond on his land? ' Bill Brezinsky - I don't recall what it was." Paul Rojina - I heard it was $4,300. She did not get one cent. They destroyed trees down there and when they cut the trees down that were on her property, these other people grabbed the wood and everything else. L am just wondering what the deal is if it is going to keep on like that? Roman Roos - Something like this, I don't know if you brought this to the attention of city staff or council. This is a public hearing to get sentiment about this proposed project. It is very preliminary. My comment to you, would Mrs. Hedtke be interested in the land being divided with a cul-de-sac? Paul Rojina - She doesn't know nothing about it. Wayne Hagman - I live at 7602 Erie. I am going on ten years in this house. This is the fourth time I have been to a public hearing that pertains to my property, only twice have I been notified about it. Tonight, .. no. Through a phone call from an adjacent neighbor I found out about it. I don't know what I have to do to get my name on the records around here.. I pay taxes. I think I am a good citizen. I don't know what the heck!!s''Wrong. These road that you are talking about run on two sides of my property and if I am listing these figures correctly that have been given tonight, man, I've got to sell. I can't afford to live there. Roman Roos - The road would give you the capability of subdividing your property. Wayne Hagman - I am not interested. That's why I moved out here. I am not interested in other homes around me. I like it the way it is. I don.'t understand why we aren't told about these things.' . Roman Roos - That's two comments tonight on the same topic. I don't have an answer. We will get an answer. - I.- ~ .~ , _. " Planning Commission Meeting November 29, 1978 -4- Roman Roos - - My name is on the map but I get no notice of these meetings. I don't understand it. This will be looked into. Your general comment is negative~ on the preliminary proposal. ~ - Absolutely. Wayne Hagman Wayne Hagman Fred Coulter - Basically the proposal here is to grant the request of one person to subdivide his lot. It's going to affect ei~ht property owners. Roman Roos - That s not correct. What we are looking at is the overall land use and how to make that land developable. Fred Coulter - What I am saying is that only one person out of the eight has approached you on it. Roman Roos - We from the Planning Commission feel, in terms of land use that there is a possibility that a road could be put through to make that complete piece of land developable. This is not what Mr. Sorenson requested. He wanted a variance. We, on the Planning Commission took a look at the overall piece of land and this is where it really came from. ~fuat we are interested in as far as the Planning Commission, is how to look at the overall land use and that means there has to be a road put through there some day if it's going to be developed and that's the purpose of this public hearing. Bill Brezinsky - The reason for this is to establish a corridor where a future road would go so that the Planning Commission can evaluate future developments in this area. Bob Waibel - They must take into account that at a later time, if this proposal is left on the shelf, that it would be quite improbable to subdivide any of those properties in the futu~ without this type of access. Gene Coulter - I want to congratulate you on your foresight in doing what you are doing. Many of us living down there have talked and we realize that we no longer can afford the luxury of these large acreage that we are living on so we are going to have to do something. Maybe not this year. Maybe not next year but we are going to have to do something. I think you are on the right track. People like me, Mr. Forcier, deLancey and a few of them that have these large acreages that we have to do it. I want to congratulate you, I think you are doing a beautiful job. Clark Horn - I think one of the reasons that people built out here were because of the lots.. One of the prime concerns I had chose this area was lot size. Had I known what is going on now I would not have granted the city an easement to go across my property. If this area is going to become completely subdivided I would have wanted my lot to be able to be subdivided too because I would have wanted to have gotten the extra money so I could move into a larger lot in some other area. The city has put the settling pond down there and they put an easement across my property and I have an acre right now, my land is not able to be ~ developed now because of what the city has previously done.'" I think this feasibility study is a little to late. Jeff Johnson - I would just like to be added to the list of people to receive information about these meetings in the future. e '.e. 'e Planning Commission Meeting November 29, 1978 -5- Don Schmieg - On the property that fronts o~ Frontier Trail, was there a reason why those lots weren t fronted on Frontier and the cul-de-sac was put in as far as it is? Bill Brezinsky - That's a possibility. There would have to be some filling of the lots. You could cut that cul-de-sac short and just go to the Sorenson property. This would be the furtherest extension of that cul-de-sac and basically there could be two lots on Hjermstad's and two lots on Hedtke's developed off that cul-de-sac. If they have no interest in it it could be stopped at the Sorenson property. Tim Stone - I think some of you may be missing one fundimental point. What we are trying to establish here is whether or not you are interested in going through a study to find out what the alternatives to a road alignment might be in that area. We are not necessarily saying this is the right one. We are not necessarily saying there has to be one. All we want to know is are you int~rested in exploring the study to find out if the lots can be subdivided and in what manner. Wayne Hagman - To answer your question, Iam not interested in a study along these lines. Roman Roos - We want to find out the feasibility, if people are interested in the feasibility. Paul Rojina - I will speak for Mrs. Hedtke, I am against it. Jerry Neher moved to continue the hearing to December 13, 1978, to receive written comments. Motion seconded by Walter Thompson and unanimously approved. Hearing continued at 8:35 p.m. PUBLIC HEARING PRELIMINARY PUBLIC IMPROVEMENT FEASIBILITY STUDY DETERMINATION WEST MURRAY HILL, EAST BARDWELL ACRES Roman Roos called the hearing to order at 8:35 p.m. The following interested persons were present: , Joyce McFarland, 6341 Murray Hill Road Mr. and Mrs. Edgar Graupmann, 6330 Murray Hill Road Mr. and Mrs. Arthur Partridge, 6280 Hummingbird Road Mr. and Mrs. Bill Swearengin, 6250 Chaska Road Frank Reese, 6200 Chaska Road Robert Sommer, 6239 Chaska Road Wayne Fransdal, 6200 Murray Hill Road Susan Bonthius, 2300 Melody Hill Road Richard Nicoli, 2280 Melody Hill Road George Baer, 6300 Chaska Road Lois Peterson, 2240 Melody Hill Road Mr. and Mrs. Robert AIDan, 2250 Melody Hill Road Bill Brezinsky The public hearing was ordered by the Planning Commission to assess the need for public improvements (street, sewer and water) in this area. This was brought on by the consideration of a proposal for the Sommer First Addition, which involved the subdivision of Lots A, B, C, and D Bardwell Acres. The plans previously.submitted had shown a road system that would have potentially foreclosed on the developability of some of the parcels on Murray Hill, Road and also, in some cases foreclosed on the application of some of the deferred assessments in the Murray Planning Commission Meeting November' 29, 1978 Hill area as per public improvement project 7l-lD. -6- Bill Brezinsky - Mr. Sommer is proposing a subdivision in the Bardwell ~ acres area, specifically his proposal at this time .., is to subdivide or develop two lots, one being a subdivision of the north half of Lot 29 and the second would be a subdivision of the former Ralph Hutmaker parcel at the end of Melody Hill-Road. In order to accomplish this subdivision within city ordinance requirements, a public street would have to be provided to serve these two parcels. We feel that while considering a road to serve these two new parcels we should also consider the possibility of a road that would serve an expanded area which would include part'of the other Murray-Hill lots along Murray Hill Road. The lots along Murray Hill Road are large enough to be subdivided but in order to do this they would also need a public road as Mr. Sommer does. ' When the north area sewer and water was put in the Council looked at these lots. -. They also felt that there is a possibili~y of subdivision. In fact they assumed these larger lots would be subdivided some time in the future and in doing-this they placed assessments on these properties. However they deferred them until the properties developed. There were a number of'units assigned to each piece of property and only one unit was-assessed on the parcel. ~ I have shown two possible road alignments and of course tt would be possible to install a road that would just serve the Sommer property. If the-road were installed just to serve the Sommer property the cost would be $33,000. If the street were to serve the Murray Hill area too, the cost would be $43,500. The cost per front foot would be $14.50. There would be additional watermain and sanitary sewer that would be needed. The watermain installation would include installation of a six inch watermain from Melody Hill Road along the street, whichever alignment, down to Chaska Road and then along Chaska Road to its present end at the southwest corner of Lot C. Mrs. Grapumann - You know you are destroying the whole hill. It stinks. Bill Brezinsky - This is just a suggestion to test the sentiment of the area for a proposal such as this. The cost of the watermain per unit would be $1,680 with the Sommer area alone. If the other area was included it would be $1,312 per unit. Sanitary sewer would also be extended along the new road. That would cost $1,833 per lot if only Mr. Sommer and $1,458 if it served the Murray Hill area also. Roman Roos - I would like to open the floor to comments at this time. ~ Bear in mind this is a preliminary study for a future .., feasibility study. Richard Nicoli - I would be definitely against either of the two proposals. Planning Commission Meeting November 29, 1978 -7- . I am not against new neighbors but I am against the traffic. There are a, lot of activities that go on at the ballfield there and I live right across the street from the ball diamonds and I get a lot of traffic there now as it is. This really shouldn't happen. There are no parking signs' there. There is a parking lot on the facility but I think extending this road is going to make it a perfect delivery system for that ballfield. It's not just going to be people going to those houses that will be using the road. If there needs to be an access, I would like to see it come up from Chaska Road into the property and not go on Melody Hill Road. Robert AIDan - I have the same reasons Mr. Nicole gave. Lois Peterson - I am definitely against it.for the same reasons. Susan Bonthius - I am also against the road that goes all the way through. Bob Sommer - I am against' the road that goes all the way through. Nancy Swearengin - Our biggest concern is that Chanhassen is not studying that area properly for future development because of the pressure that Shorewood is putting on you we are concerned that you are not looking far enough in the future for what's really going to happen there. Roman Roos - What is your justif-ica'tion of thatconnnent? Nancy Swearengin - My justification is that first of all you are developing that in small city lots which goes against ,the topography, whereas a cluster townhouse situation on land like that would be more pleasing to all the neighbors I think. I just don't think that you arealillowing for the pressure that's going to be put on that property. Edgar Graupmann - I am on Lot 30 on Murray Hill Road. I like it the way it is myself . When you start talking '$5,300, what can 1 do on a fixed income? I might as well sell. What have I got left when you get through? Nothing. . Bill Swearengin - In the rush to develop the community, to my way of thinking you might be better off to consider multiple units on that hill which could be sandwiched in without tearing up the whole hill. You could squeeze multiple units in there,you would never see them with underground parking on the slope. They would fit in beaufifully. Art Partridge - I think this is aremarkaHly stupid proposal. The original proposal Mr. Sommer had was for a cul-de-sac off Melody Hill Road that would essentially be his expense and looks like you are running a road at the expense of the adjoining neighbors down a cliff and through a swamp and adding a great deal more sewer and water and more charges to an area that already doesn't need them. You are also intensifying development in an area that hasn't had it in the past. If one landowner .-. . Planning Commission Meeting November 29, 1978 -8- wishes to develop his land I have no objection to that but I truly resent a statement which has been quoted to me that Bob Waibel has made that, we are going to break you up. This is a decision that an individual property owner should be able to make himself. We went through this with the Eggam's subdivision which is essentially right around the corner and you chopped lots there that were roughly a quarter the size of anything in the neighborhood and it looks like you are trying to do it again. Bill Brezinsky - This is a proposal for a feasibility study. The reason that we have got this in here is it often happens that a subdivision will go ahead on one piece of property and the road will be designed to accommodate that piece of property and the next year somebody will come in next door and need a road and sometimes it really ends up in a clumsy situation when that happens. This is the reason we are looking at this. If nobody along there ever intends to develop that property and says so, it is doubtful that the road would go in. There would be a road that would go in at Mr. Sommer's expense. It would serve his property. Joyce McFarland - I would like to speak for my mother who lives at 6370 Melody Hill Road. She would most certainly as long as she is here and as far as we are her estate people, we have no intention of selling that property in any kind of subdivision. We would in no way appreciate a road abutting her. Bob Waibel - I would like to make note of the remark that I said I was going to break up the neighborhood. No such remarks were ever made. Bill Brezinsky - We are responding to a proposal by Mr. Sommer. Bill Swearengin - But part of your professional responsibility is to offer alternative,~solutions. Jerry Neher - About two years ago an individual came in for a development. A man was there that was very strongly against developing that property the way he wanted to develop so he could give services to that other man. A year and a half later the man that was against it came back and he wanted to develop his property and we had to turn him down because he had, landlocked himself. The only access he had was through an impossible easement that you could no way build a road on. That's the thing that we have to work with. We don't want to landlock anybody that maybe someday wants to develop his property. Bob Sommer - To provide some sort of historical perspective on this, I came in here two years ago and I wanted to slice off a few lots down on Chaska Road. The Planning Commission and the Council balked at this because they felt I would landlock property which I explained to them at the time there was no way I would landlock it by selling off a few lots. We had lots of alternatives. I still at this point would like to sell off a few lots on Chaska Road and by this plan here I am not landlocking anything by doing that and that's where I still stand. People are afraid of this development, well we were talking about future development. . . . e e . Planning Commission Meeting November 2'9, 1978 -9- Wayne Fransdal - I think it's a concern of this body here and the Council that there is some overall planning so we don't end up with a hodge podge mess. Nancy Swearengin - Absolutely. Dick Matthews - Would the residents that are here and have spoken so far tonight, would they state their name and whether they are in favor of or opposed to a feasibility study. Some may have changed their mind. Whether they are in favor of the feasibility of the development of this land, not necessarily what we have here tonight but looking into alternatives. Bill Swearengin - Are you also talking of rezoning? Bob Waibel - This property would not have to be rezoned with the proposal at hand. For land use, our comprehensive plan shows the parcel across Chaska Road to become multiple family. We are in the process of updating our comprehensive plan. Bill Swearengin - If your feasibility study involves just the development up here with the road then Nancy and I would be against it. . Mr. Walter Cleveland was unablet() attend.the.meeting but telephoned staff to say that he is opposed to anything happening on Murray Hill. Tim Stone moved to close the public hearing. Motion seconded by Mal MacAlpine and unanimously approved. Hearing closed at 9: 50 p~m. PUBLIC HEARING SOMMER SUBDIVISION, LOTS A, B, G, AND D, BARDWELL ACRES Ro~an Roos called the hearing to or~er with the following interested persons present: Arthur Partridge, 6280 Hummingbird Road Mr. and Mrs. Edgar Graupmann, 6330. Murray Hill Road Joyce McFarland, 6341 Murray Hill Road (representing herself and Mrs. C. E. Howard of 6370 Murray Hill Road) Bill and Nancy Swearengin, 6280 Chaska Road . Frank Reese, 6200 Chaska Road . Robert Sommer, 6239 Chaska Road Wayne Fransdal, 6200 Murray Hill Road Susan Bonthius, 2300 Melody Rill Road Richard Nicoli, 2280 Melody Hill Road George Baer, 6300 Chaska Road The Assistant City Planner read the official notice as published in the Carver County Herald. This hearing was ordered as a result of discussion regarding the overall subdivision proposal of Mr. Sommer for Lots B, C, and D, Bardwell Acres. The previous intention of Mr. Sommer was to be able to proceed with imminent sale of the Hutmaker property in the southeast portion of Lot D and also the imminent sale of the eastern half of Lot 29, Murray Hill. Since that time Mr. Sommer has requested that he be able to subdivide the three lots along Chaska Road so that he might use the proceeds from the sales in lieu of those anticipated from.the' sales of the Hutmaker property and Lot 29. The City Planner recommended approval of the request subject to the following reasons and conditions: Planning Commission Meeting November 29, 1978 -IO- 1. That Mr. Sommer has demonstrated that egress and circulation within the interiors of Lots A, B, C, and D of Bardwell Acres are not contingent to or prohibited by the subdivision of these three ~ lots in the proposed manner. .., 2. That Mr. Sommer petition for water to be extended to the properties and that subdivision be contingent upon availability of water service directly to the properties. 3. That sewer units be assessed to the properties as per project 7l-lD. 4. That any construction taking place on the land shall show regard for the existing topography and vegetation. 5. That the applicant post an escrow with the City Treasurer in the amount of $500 to defray staff costs in processing this application. Bill Swearengin - If you rezoned that multiple, what would Bob Sommer's attitude be on it? Bob Sommer - I wouldn't like multiple. Richard Nicole - If those lots are approved, then the only other way to use that land behind it would be to put in a ,road from one way or the other, it would eliminate any possibility of a road coming up from Chaska Road. Roman Roos - No. Tim Stone moved to close the public hearing. Motion seconded by Jerry Neher and unanimously approved. Hearing closed at 9:45 p.m. FEASIBILITY STUDY AND SOMMER SUBDIVISION: Tim Stone moved to table actio. on the subdivision of three lots on Chaska Road until the feasibility study is completed. The Planning Commission recommends the Council authorize a feasibility study for the proposed subdivision, road alignment, and utilities for Lots A, B, C, and D, Bardwell Acres and Lot 29, Murray Hill Addition. Motion seconded by Mal MacAlpine and unanimously approved. COMPREHENSIVE PLAN SCHEDULE: Mark Koegler, City Planner, discussed scheduling for completion of the comprehensive plan, involvement with other conrrnunity groups, city commissions, and council. Members decided to hold special meetings in order to devote more time to the completion of the plan. PROPOSED 208 WATER QUALITY PLAN: Metropolitan Council will be holding a formal hearing in December on this plan. The Assistant City Planner reviewed the 208 plan relating to the issues relevant to Chanhassen. RESTAURANT STUDY: A discussion was held on whether to set aside an area of the city for a restaurant district and prepare an ordinance to govern it. EXPANSION PROPOSAL FOR TAX INCREMENT DISTRICT: A discussion was held on the merits of expanding the tax increment district to include Lake Susan Hills. The Planning Commission will act on this proposal at their December 13 meeting. Tim Stone moved. to adjourn. Motion seconded by Mal MacAlpine and unanimously approved. Meeting adjourned at 12:00. . Don Ashworth City Manager