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1979 02 14 e e e REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING FEBRUARY 14, 1979 Walter Thompson called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. with the following members present: Tim Stone, Jerry Neher, and Gordon Freeburg. Roman Roos, Pat Swenson, and Mal MacAlpine were absent. MINUTES: Gordon Freeburg moved to approve the January 17 and January 24, 1979, Planning Commission minutes. Motion seconded by Tim Stone and unanimously approved. Jerry Neher moved to note the January 22 and February 5, 1979 Council minutes. Motion seconded by Tim Stone and unanimously approved. RESIGNATION: Tim Stone submitted his resignation from the Planning Commission effective at the end of this meeting. Members accepted his resignation with regret. This position will be advertised and all previous applicants will be considered. PUBLIC HEARING PRELIMINARY DEVELOPMENT PLAN, 'SUBDIVISION, REZONING, PUD, AND CUP NEW HORIZON HOMES, INC. CHAPPARRAL OUTLOTS BAND C Walter Thompson called the hearing to order at 7:A5 p.m. with the following interes'tedpersons present: Robert Burger, 3131 Fernbrook Lane No., Plymouth John Shard1ow, 1053 Ashland Ave., St. Paul William B. Ward, 6840 Utica, Excelsior Phyllis Pope, 7055 Carver Beach Road, Excelsior J. Harold and Agnes Anderson, 6470 Oriole, Excelsior Bill Brezinsky Vernon Kerber, 7241 Powers Blvd., Excelsior Craig Mertz The Assistant City Manager/Planner read the official notice as published in the Carver County Herald. John Shard10w presented the proposed plan. An environmental assessment worksheet has been submitted to the EQB for review. A negative declaration has been published which states that they ,(EQB) doe I t feel that this development is a major action. This proposed development is located east of Powers Blvd. and south of MSAS 101 and includes a combination of quadrominium, duplex, and single family lots. The total site includes 106.2 acres of which 64.92 acres is proposed for residential, 20.75 acres for park, and approximately 20 acres for streets. Phyllis Pope - How much more water is going to be in that ponding area that is in there at present? John Shard10w - Given the nature of the land forms, this development won't really affect that ponding area as much as it will a proposed ponding area which is not shown on the plan because we haven't done the engineering on it. The project is in the process of being reviewed by the watershed district and they will make their recommendations as to how much water will have to be impounded. Bill Brezinsky - The basic requirement is going to be that they discharge no more water from this area to. the creek than there is in an undeveloped state. That's going to be the watershed district requirement. They will have to have ponds to accommodate it. Planning Commission Meeting February 14, 1979 -2- There will definitely be more ponding because of the run off. There will be twice as much water stored on the land as there is right now. ~ John Shard10w - We are anticipating a fairly substantial ponding area. ~ Staff reports were given. The Assistant City Manager/Planner expressed concern about the possible vacation of Dogwood. He feels it should not be vacated at this time. .He noted that should Dogwood be put in it would be at the sole expense of the abutting properties to the north. Craig Mertz - The homeowner's association material relates to these quadrominium and duplex operations and in the case of a quadrominium, in effect a type of a townhouse, these people that are buying the units are going to be buying their segment of the building plus the land immediately underneath that. Robert Burger - Basically the difference between what they call a quadrominium or duplex, we call it single family attached. It's got all of the rights and everything else that goes with single family. The man owns the house, he owns the land, he owns the lot around it. There is no common area within this property. Everybody owns their own land. The area that we propose in the center for park will be dedicated to the City as park land. The purpose of the homeowner's association is to address the fact that obviously you can't have one guy paint a quarter of a building one color and another one another color. It covers e the exterior maintenance of the building. It covers . the snow plowing. All the yard maintenance, the cutting of the grass, the replacement of shrubs. It sets up escrow accounts for the replacement of roofing, repainting and everything else. This is a viable operation managed by the owners within that project and we have had many, many projects where homeowner '.s associations have been formed and they are all very successful. Gordon Freeburg - This document would only apply to the quadrominiums and the duplexes? Robert Burger - That's correct. Bill Brezinsky - This is in answer to, .Bruce Patterson's letter and this addresses some of the things that he pointed out in his letter. It doesn't come to any conclusion on street widths but it will give the Council, Planning Commission and Staff something to look at in considering the street widths in this project and in future projects. As you know the City for many years has required 28 foot wide roadway for minor streets in single family residential areas and from our observation this has proved adequate. It's not, or course, been tested in dup1ex,quadrominium areas because we don't have any other than in Koehnen's Addition. We have had ... experience with roads in apartment areas like on ~ Chan View where a 32 foot road proved inadequate and we had.to restrict the parking on it. This is something we are going to have to give some thought and we are going to have to get some input from the Planning Commission Meeting February 14, 1979 -3- Robert Burger - maintenance people to decide what we are going to do when we get in these type of densities. In Mr. Patterson's letter he questioned the widening of the street in Phase I. We did not have any intention to have the streets widened in that area. That's already been approved by you people and the Council and the bids have been let and construction has begun. Those are 28 feet wide. Mr. Patterson makes a lot of valid points against widening streets which include increased cost to homeowners, the increased maintenance cos~s and increased run off which is always a problem. The main reason for widening the streets, if you were to make such a recommendation, would be to lessen the weaving activity in the streets because around parkea cars and so forth. I have done some study and I have quotations from various publications regarding the recommended widths of residential streets and the two that I looked at were residential streets objectives and design considerations are published by the Urban Land Institute, the American Society of Civil Engineers and the National Association of Home Builders, jointly. In that report they recommend 26 foot wide streets in residential areas. In fact they make the statement from their observations there is very little difference in the driver convenience between a 36 foot wide and a 26 foot wide in these areas. The Traffic Engineer's Handbook also recommends a 26 foot wide street in a residential area. As far as lot size,they swing from 10,000 to an acre, that's the way they define a lot size in a residential area. They don't address the effect of the snow fall and off street parking. Because of this some of the communities around here have widened above the 26 feet. I guess that's the reason we went to 28 feet. I am not making any recommendations. I am just trying to give you information. I guess if we were to reach a conclusion right now or if I was to give a recommendatior. right now I would say that our 28 foot streets are probably fine for single family residential homes. For multiples I can't make a recommendation. We will have more information. Thirty-two feet on the quadrominiums would be fine with me. I have no problem with thirty-two feet. Everything that we have has a double attached garage. It's got two parking places right in front. We do not like on street parking. In fact we hope you discourage it. Craig Mertz - You should make a definite recommendation on street pavement width before you pass this plan on to the City Council. e e e Tim Stone moved to close the public hearing. Motion seconded by Gordon Freeburg and unanimously approved. NEW HORIZON HOMES: Tim Stone moved to recommend the Council approve the preliminary development plan, subdivision plan, rezoning from R-1A to P-1 for New Horizon Homes, Chaparral Out1ots Band C as noted on Exhibit A and all street widths be 28 feet except that portion of multiples be 32 feet and that the recommendation be contingent upon substantiation Planning Commission Meeting February 14, 1979 -4- of the impondment area. Motion seconded by Gordon Freeburg and unanimously approved. Tim Stone left at 8:50 p.m. The Assistant City Attorney stated that tit the Planning Commission could hold the next public hearing and continue it to a meeting when there will be a quorum. PUBLIC HEARING SUBDIVISION REQUEST J. HAROLD ANDERSON The public hearing was called to order at 8:50 p.m. with the following interested persons present: William E. Lehmen, 6461 Oriole, Excelsior William Ward, 6840 Utica, Excelsior J. Harold and Agnes Anderson Luke Melchert The Assistant City Manager/Planner read the official notice as published in the Carver County Herald. The applicant has incorporated the recommendations of the City Engineer regarding the 40 foot right-of-way for Oriole and the alignment of Forest Avenue. Lot 4 is presently ineligible for a building permit since it does not have sufficient frontage on a public street. If Oriole Lane were cu1-de-saced it would probably have adequate frontage at the building setback line. Luke Melchert - What constitutes an improved public street? ~ Craig Mertz - At least gravel I would think. ~ Luke Melchert - Oriole Lane as it presently exists, I am sure probably is not up to what your standards would be. Could the Andersons improve that area in front of Lot 4 to something less than what your existing standards would be to qualify for a public road? Craig Mertz - I think that we could but that's up to the City Council. It would set a precedent for new subdivisions. Jerry Neher moved to continue the public hearing to the next meeting. Motion seconded by Gordon Freeburg and unanimously approved. Jerry Neher moved to adjourn. Motion seconded by Gordon Freeburg and unanimously approved. Don Ashworth City Manager e