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1979 07 18 SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JULY 18, 1979 e Roman Roos called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. with the following members present: Pat Swenson, Gordon Freeburg, Gerald Neher, and Clark' Horn. INITIAL PRESENTATION OF THE LAKE LUCY ROAD TRUNK WATERMAIN FEASIBILITY STUDY Mr. Rodney Gordon of Schoell & Madson, Inc. made a presentation stating that this particular trunk watermain is another addition to the proposed trunk water- main that was for the whole city, a whole trunk watermain system designed for the whole city in 1971, and this is just a part of that, to complete a part of that particular system. If the Lake Lucy Trunk watermain was put into the existing system, water could be supplied from the wells on the easterly side over to the booster station, and that could get the water into the high service area and that could supply water to the normal service area around take Minnewashta, so it could be a complete unified system with this length com- pleted in that trunk watermain. He stated the trunk system is needed during periods of peak flow. It is estimated that the total system would cost about $330,000, and that has been divided into lateral and trunk watermain costs. e Th~ City Manager commented on the above presentation, stating that an alternate means to provide adequate fire protection in the north area and accomplish having water supplies back in the area if there are any problems should seriously be looked at by the City. He felt that the biggest problem with construction of this line is the fact that it will produce a significant development pressure in this area, a pressure that he felt we are not really ready for because we do not have sanitary sewer available in a majority of this area. The reason it is back to the planning commission is because from a staff standpoint, this has very serious planning considerations tied with it. l1t also has a very serious affect if we can not get water some other way and we do have a problem with that well. Roman Roos stated that it is interesting that this type of an extension would somewhat promote the estate type development within the City of Chanhassen. - The City Manager stated that if it is found that from an overall standpoint to insure that water protection is available within the entire community and we are forced into a position of putting this line in, it would appear that there might be two means of assessment. The first, to go on the basis of a typical 15,000 sq. ft. lot basis all the way through. That option would really presume that in fact sanitary sewer would be coming back to this area. The second option would be really to state that this area should be considered in an estate type of a development, that it would be considered for 2~ acre, or whatever, should be of a larger lot size, it would have the advantage of public water insuring that fire protection service would be available to newly created lots in this area, that there would be a municipal water source, newer septic tank systems, especially coupled with the munieipal water, would really have no type of an impact or potential as far as either pollution~' individual systems or community wide. It would mean that lots in this area would carry larger assessments. It would also mean that from a practical standpoint, the city could never really consider developing this in a more urban type of density. Once this type of an area were designated as a estate type of development area, that it would remain that way even if ten years from now sewer were to be generally available to this area. e SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JULY 18, 1979 Page 2 The City Planner stated they brought it to the planning commission's attention because of the nature of it. In light of the questions brought up, you perhaps need a response from some of the engineering questions before it can be further discussed as to the implications of what the project would have on the area. There were points raised that obviously need investigation. If you want the engineers to report back with answers before it proceeds further, that is your discretion. Mr. Roos indicated that the answers to some of the questions would be necessary, and at that point in time and if that is the routing, then we could look at the land use implications, the assessments, etc. I would like to know if the overall skeletal water system for the City of Chanhassen is the way it has to be done, because it was laid out way back in 1971. The City Manager said he would like to see Ray Jackson respond to some of the questions that have been raised, and answer your specific question. If you put this through there, without sewer, can you charge for the proposed lots if you wont let us develop them? e Mr. Roos - I don't think I want to respond to that at this point in time. That is one of the questions brought up earlier. We from the planning commission are going to look at it from the land use implication and also from an assessment point of view. That would be one of the topics we would cover, but until we know exactly where we are coming from, I would rather not respond to that. Jerome Truhn - I am one of the residents that live on Lake Lucy Road. The land use implications are very important to me. We moved out to Chanhassen because of its rural character, we didn't move out here to move into another Bloomington. We don't want that kind of an attraction for development, as a matter of fact, that kind of a facility which puts a great deal of pressure on. I think one of the things to be kept in mind is the breath and depth of our opposition to it is going to be very severe, we are going to fight it tooth and nail. Mr. Roos - This is one of the things we find in a growing community, and that is what Chanhassen is. We have had severe very vocal response on the last East/West corridor. This is good for a growing city, it is good for the community. We have got some real growth problems and we are trYing to keep our development in the sewered area, and this also compounds that problem, so there are many problems that will have to be answered. e Jim Mielke - I live along Lake Lucy Road also. A few years ago this Lake Ann interceptor was a matter of much discussion on the plannin g commission and at that time there were a number of developments on the West side of Lake Ann that were wanting this interceptor. The Metropolitan Council through the Metropolitan Sewer Board indicated to the City of Chanhassen that the Lake Ann interceptor would not be approved and indicated that this whole western area was designated as a green belt. If you are going to allow a project like this that SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JULY 18, 1979 Page 3 e circumvents that intent, certainly you are going to face some stiff opposition from the Metropolitan Council that might be encouraged by me going to them complaining about what you are doing here, circumventing their green belt philosophy for the area. We can't put all green belts in Chanhassen, but here is a specific example of what they want to avoid, if you talk about 15,000 sq. ft. lots in this area. To comment on Schoell & Madson's previous engineering on this project, I see a line that does go across this area, and I would like to know why this 8 inch line wasn't put in as a 12 or 18 inch line? If they are so concerned about fire protection of the Lake Minnewashta residents, why wasn't that put in larger? Mr. Roos - mhat is one of the questions that could be responded to, and I am sure they have some answers on that. I think an important thing to remember is that this is the first reading of a feasibility study and we have raised a lot of questions this evening. We are not here for apublic hearing. I think the voice of the people will definitely become evident. Gordon Freeburg - Is there any arrangement between neighboring communities for a cross connection of water systems or things like this for fire protection? Could we for instance, cross connect with Excelsior? e Mr. Ashworth - A number of cities have things like that, but I don't know if it would be feasible here. Clark Horn - Maybe we could summarize our comments. Do we want to see more alternatives or routing of possible trunks. Do we want to see more alternatives of alternative wells instead of trunks, and maybe some more comments on other areas of getting into this. The possibility of cross tying into another community. Possible cost of a second well or third well, at well point No.3, a back up well. e OPEN DISCUSSION A discussion on land use was held at this meeting. The City Planner gave out information on population projections, those given by the Metropolitan Council and the other being the ones that the city has done, employment, housing units. Also discussed by the City Planner was residential development, breaking the residential category down into definable units. In terms of density, he defined four, Residential Rural Density - less than one dwelling unit per acre; Residential Low Density - from 1 to ~ dwelling units per acre; Medium Density - 3.6 to 7 dwelling units per acre; and High Density - that greater than 7 dwelling units per acre. He stated that when talking about the future residential makeup of the community, it must be determined what kind of mix there will be, how much single family, how much townhouse, etc~ He stated he came up with a split - 1%, of development being in the estate type rural density category; about 65% in the low density category (single family & duplex units); 28% in the medium category (townhouse & quads); 6% in the high density category (garden type apartments). This is the kind of mix that the numbers seem to point to. SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JULY 18, 1979 Page h e e More research was done, and the average density within each of those categories was pointed out, for projection purposes. The rural density category - ~~ acres is kind of a minimum number given a variety of slope conditions so you would insure you would have enough area to handle septic systems, well, whatever. The low density - being roughly 2.2 dwelling units per acre, the medium - approximately 4, and high density - being 8. If all the information is put together, and looking at the high population projection and the high housing unit count, the projected medi acres, roughly 100 acres in the rural density, 1357 in low density, 309 acres of medium density, and 31 acres of high, totaling roughly 1800 acres. He stated that all sketch plans or future land use plans are a tool for planning purposes, they are not meant to be used necessarily on a parcel by parcel basis. We are talking about what is the overall desirable way for the city to grow. He gave and explained three options so that visually and functionally which type of development and which type of density and which types of uses relate well to general areas of the community Go~ld be discussed. The integration of duplexes within single family neighborhoods was discussed. Mr. Roos stated that that problem had come up before and it was generally decided that the zero lot lines, town houses, duplexes, two family units would be interspersed in the developments. He stated he felt that was still a very good policy, that there is a need for that type of construction. Clark Horn stated he felt those two should be s~parated, that as far as planning purposes there should be two separate groups made for that. He felt the low density category is too all inclusive. The City Planner stated he gave that some thought when he went through it. It was his feeling that duplexes are simply two attached single family units. He didn't feel a duplex detracts from any neighborhood, and he is in favor of dispersal of that type of unit. He doesn't feel that the single family house is superior to a duplex as far as living environment goes. Pat Swenson stated she really didn't object, she didn't think she would mind having one across the street from her. Clark Horn stated he knows what the neighborhood sentiment in his neighborhood is regarding that kind of development next to a single family development. I think that is why I would like to see it separated here. Gordon Freeburg wanted to know if the zoning ordinances that are in effect now will prevail. The City Planner stated yes, or the new ordinances will prevail,if there is a revi si on. e Roman Roos stated that from a generalized concept plan that we are trYing to formulate now, and because we are trying to develop Chanhassen into a community, we have to have some land that will be enticing to developers. We can't just put an apartment house in the middle of a corn field, they have to have some amenities that go along with it. I think we have got to look at some lake shore as having high density on it. If we are trying to get development in here, we've got to have land available that is set up for that type of development. I think by the planning process and zoning, we have a lot of control over any development in terms of high density. SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING JULY 18, 1979 Page 5 e He stated that he didn't think it should get bogged down with details at this point in time, other than generalized locations. Gordon Freeburg agreed, stating that this is for the Lake Studies Commission. They are going to determine what usage that lake is going to have, and fine high density might be put there, but we might not let them put any docks out. Clark Horn stated he thought that if we put all the high density in the better areas, we are going to end up with unusable areas. I think you have to look at it with supply and demand. Supply and demand says you have to attract people to spend more money in a given area and you generally base the housing on the value of that land. The City Planner stated that the intent of these options was not to use up all of the prime land into one high density category. This community has so much prime land, it is one of our most valuable assets. I don't think any of these options try to monopolize anyone of those particular areas. A discussion was held regarding the Highway 169/212 meeting that was to take place, and which alignment is preferred. e The dog situation in the City of Chanhassen was brought up by Clark Horn. It was stated that the City Council has been discussing that issue and the City Planner said the contract for patrol has been increased in terms of the number of hours. Roman Roos stated that Tom Droegemueller and Jim Bell have been approved by the City Council to be members of the planning commission. They will be sworn in at the next meeting next week. Gordon Freeburg moved to adjourn. Motion seconded by Clark Horn, and unanimously approved. Don Ashworth City Manager e