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1979 08 29 REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING - August 29, 1979 e Roman Roos called the meeting to order at 7:30 P.M., with the following members present: Tom Droegemueller, Clark Horn, Walter Thompson, Pat Swenson and Jack Bell. Gordon Freebung was absent. DISCUSSION, PROPOSED PLAN AMENDMENT, PLANNED RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT AND SUBDIVISION, LOTUS LAKE ESTATES II AND III ADDITION Bob Waibel gave a staff report about the questions that still needed to be answered at this meeting. He reported on what the Park and Recreation Commission's decisions were, stating they indicated oHtlot B as satisfactory for conservation, widening it to 6 ft. pedestrian way, with 2 feet on either side for maintenance. They also moved the secondary access to the Northwest corner as staff recommended. He also stated there will have to be some staff investi- gation as to how the Flood Plain Ordinance ties into this area. e With respect to the emergency access onto the property in the northwest corner, Clark Horn stated the Park & Rec. Commission has just as much concern about an access through there as the developer does, and they don't want extra accesses, and chains put up across the property. Nobody really wants that in there, the only reason we are putting it in there as I understand it is because of one of the ordinances. He questioned whether we really need that or not. Neither the developer nor the park wants it, the city is not assuming any liability in that area. As long as people going in there know that that is the only access in there, he didn't know whether we should necessarily be strapped by the ordinance. I am questioning whether we need it. Roman Roos stated we would just have to weigh the proposal, in order to get another access into that piece of property, there is no other way of doing it. Clark Horn agreed, stating he questioned how tightly we are bound to that. He stated he knows and it is an ordinance, fire department recommendation. We are supposed to set up ordinances for the protection of the people. The people are the ones whose insurance rates go up, if they do, because of this. The city does not incur any liability. There has never been a problem in Chanhassen Estates, as far as emergency access. Jack Bell said he felt there should be two accesses into a development. I think it is necessary for safety. Pat Swenson questioned why it was permitted on the previous development. Bob Waibel said it was a terrain factor, there was no way we could get around it. Walter Thompson said he felt two accesses would be convenient, but he felt the developer was trying to make the best use of his land. If he doesn't feel that it is that much 9f a problem, I am inclined to go with him. Clark Horn agreed that it is desirable to have two accesses. I feel there are cases where we have developments that don't have it where circumstances warrant. e Tom Droegemueller stated he agreed with Clark, it is the best of all worlds to have two accesses to a situation like that, but I feel some of the chunks of land in this community are not conducive to orderly planning and development. If they are going to be developed we are going to have to make exceptions to ideal conditions. REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING - August 29, 1979 Page 2 e Roman Roos added he felt it would be best to have two accesses, if one has to be a secondary, emergency access, fine. I think we have to be cognizant of the land that is surrounding this piece of property. If we have park to the west, and the north is the only other we can tie together, and apparantly there is some possibility there of having a tie point, but that tie point would be very close to the existing access, so perhaps in this proposal there is no way of doing it. The poll results on this question were, Tom and Clark felt the access was not necessary in this instance, Walter and Jack felt it was necessary, and pat felt it was safer. Roman Roos stated the planning commission as a body abide by the Park and Rec recommendations on this project. Walter Thompson moved to recommend the approval of the preliminary development plan and preliminary development plat as represented on Planning Commission Exhibit "B" dated 8/22/79, with the following modification: the emergency access shown on the preliminary plat between Lot l3 in Block 7 and Lot 1 in Block 5 would be eliminated and in substitution of that a new emergency access 25 feet in width would be created between Lots 5 and 6 in Block 5, and that the three points discussed by staff in the Planning Commission Meeting of August 22, 1979 will be met by the developer. Motion seconded by Jack Bell. Voting in favor were Walter Thompson, Pat Swenson, Jack Bell and Roman Roos. Voting against were Clark Horn and Tom Droegemueller. Motion not carried. e Clark Horn moved that the Planning Commission accept the plat deleting the emergency access located between Lot 13 in Block 7 and Lot 1 in Block 5, subject to the three conditions outlined in the planner's report of August 22, 1979. Voting in favor were Clark Horn, Walter Thompson, Pat Swenson, Tom Droegemueller and Roman Roos. Voting against was Jack Bell. Motion carried. Jack Bell moved that the Planning Commission recommend approval of a Conditional Use Permit for fill purposes in accordance with the Planning Commission Exhibit "B" dated August 22, 1979, and that the Conditional Use Permit being recommended would incorporate all conditions of the Lake Riley-Purgatory Creek Watershed District grading permit previously issued. Motion seconded by Clark Horn and unanimously approved. DISCUSSION, PLANNED RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT, REZONING, SUBDIVISION AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT, SUNRISE BEACH, DERRICK LAND COMPANY Bob Waibel gave a staff report on this item, summarizing what had taken place at the public hearing. Things to be covered at this time are the 800 ft. cul-de-sac, the secondary or emergency access, the road situation, the drainage, the open space being covered under a conditional use permit or not. e e REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING - August 29, 1979 Page 3 Clark Horn stated that this particular development better than any other development that has come before use or we see coming, points out the necessity to find out the feasibility of the inter-connecting trail system. He stated it was his feeling that we are negating possible quality developers on the lake shore by requiring this inter-connecting trail system and questioning the feasibility of maintaining that type of thing. If the city is going to own or maintain this property, they should have a plan in mind as to what the costs are to maintain this property before this development goes in, because I feel that if at some point they would change their mind on this and allow some areas to open up, that the nature of the development would have already been set. I think now is the time to set that because that is going to determine the quality of the properties that are developed in this area. I would like the Park & Rec to display the feasibility of maintaining this section before we cut the developer off from not being able to develop on the lakeshore. Pat Swenson made comment about the slopes, that according to the wetlands, that area is pretty low.From the plats that I have seen that they have presented, they have been as thorough and any I have ever seen, and have done just about everything that has been requested. That was one of the things that they did show, development in areas that I question because of the marshland on the lake si de . e Walter Thompson stated his comment would be that he is in agreement with Clark, but that will delay the development if we have to wait for a fully detailed plan. Clark Horn stated he knows what the overall system is, what he doesn't know is specifics as to how or feasibility of a trail inter-connecting this. I know that the land will inter-connect, but I don't know of any feasibility of a trail. Mark Koegler and Bob Waibel commented on the trail system and the shoreline, lake shore properties and pedestrian ways. Roman Roos stated he has no problems with the secondary access as it is shown. The planning commission stated they have no problems with the cul-de-sac as it is shown.. As far as the open space issue, this will be proved out in the future as to whether it is usable or not. The drainage can be covered under the next step of the planning process. Walter Thompson brought up the subject of sewer assessments. It was stated that the developer is going to absorb the 19 lot differential on sewer assessments because of the bigger lot sizes. Pat Swenson stated she is still concerned about the grading going up onto Pleasant, View, she would like to see it lowered. Ray Jackson stated there are no street grade profiles submitted to this date, that would come in later stages, this should be able to be diminished to an acceptable level. e Jack Bell moved to approve the rezoning of the tract of land listed on Exhibit "c" dated 8/22/79, from R-lA to P-l. Motion seconded by Tom Droegemueller and unanimously approved. REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING - August 29, 1979 Page 4: e Clark Horn moved to accept the preliminary development plat without the emergency access, but use the proposed roads to the future development as the emergency access when that area develops. Motion seconded by Jack Bell and unanimously approved. The access will be stricken from the plat. Pat Swenson moved to recommend that the plan as shown on Exhibit tic" be accepted and that no alteration of the common space be allowed except upon the modification of the development plan. Motion seconded by Walter Thompson and unanimously approved. DISCUSSION, REZONING, PLANNED RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT, SUBDIVISION, AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT, WESTERN HILLS III, H & K CONSTRUCTION Bob Waibel gave a report summarizing the public hearing of the week before. He reported on the comments of the Park & Recreation Commission. The letter from the Kerbers' attorney was discussed, and Clark Horn asked if the sewer issue had changed since that letter? It was stated that mainline stubs would be provided to the property line, it would not cross the Kerber property, but be up to it so they could extend from that point in the future. e Pat Swenson stated as far as the zero lot line duplexes, I toured some on lots that were l3,000 sq. ft. On the H & K development, there isn't any indication as to what size the building is they actually propose to put on these. Basically she felt she would like to see the ll,OOO sq. ft. lots a little bit bigger. She is willing to go with l3,000. She would be interested to know what size family uni t, and what type of lot lines they have in mind. Sie would be more comfortable feeling there was at least l5 or 20 ft. side lot line on each unit, which could be achieved by going to a l3,000 sq. ft. lot. Clark Horn pointed out two other factors, park & Rec didn't ~xpress a concern for those along the open area on the one side, and another factor that the Kerbers didn't po:Lnt out is that the portion of the property that they would be adjacent to in the Kerber area is probably the most valuable area in the Kerber area because that is where their trees are located, which typically bring a higher value. Mr. Hansen stated there is right around lOO acres involved. He said basically they followed the same plan since 1969, except the basic change from the Carver Beach area. We probably have about 6 more lots then in :&69. The streets and everYthing are basically the same with the exception of the Carver Beach connection. H & K's letter of August 27, 1979 covers all l2 items listed in Bob Waibel's planning report dated August 7, 1979, and Bob Waibel commented on their answers at this time. Clark Horn moved to rezone the total property from R-la to P-l. Motion seconded by Pat Swenson and unanimously approved. e REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING - August 29, 1979 Page 5 e Clark Horn moved to modify the plot to eliminate a lot from the south side of the dual lot line lots to delete one to have a total of four buildings and eight dwellings. Motion seconded by Pat Swenson. Voting in favor were Clark Horn, Roman Roos, Dom Droegemueller and Pat Swenson. Voting no were Jack Bell and Walter Thompson. Motion approved. The plat is therefore approved as Exhibit "A" and it will be modified accordingly. Pat Swenson moved to recommend to the City Council to accept the Pre1iminary Development Plan represented on Exhibit "A", Planning Commission 8/29/79, with the modification made in the previous Clark Horn mGtion, and with the further modifications as follows. Motion seconded by Clark Horn. A. First Page of H & K memo dated August 27, 1979, remains as stands. B. Second Page, Item No.5 - Support Park & Rec.'s recommendations, the l5 ft. easement along the lower portion of the property, that piece of property being classified as Outlot "A", dedication of the l5 ft. strip including the water control station, the complete area to be noted as Outlot "A". Park & Rec. are also requesting that conservation maintenance easement on the creek bed on the south side of the Chapparal development . C. Item No. 9 - This is being put in subject to the public improvements project issue. D. Item No. lO is covered with engineering. It~m II has been covered. Item No. l2 will be picked up by the Watershed District. e The l2 points referred to are those l2 points set forth in Mr. Waibel's report of August 7, 1979, and responded to by H & K's memo of August 27, 1979. Motion unanimously approved. EDEN PRAIRIE, COMPREHENSIVE GUIDE PLAN DRAFT REVIEW Mark Koegler presented some key points for the Guide Plan to be reviewed by the Planning Commission. PROPOSED PRELIMINARY DEVELOPMENT PLAN REVIEW N~1 MOUNTAIN DEVELOPMENT The staff report was presented by Bob Waibel. He stated that should the Planning Commission be of consensus that there has been sufficient review time, and infor- mation provided for concept consideration, a public hearing may be ordered. The public hearing should be conditioned upon the applicant posting an escrow with the City Treasurer in the amount of $l500 to defray Staff costs in processi.ng the application, that the applicant prepare preliminary development plans as per section l4 of Ordinance 47, and with the understanding that the necessity for substantial changes could arise at the preliminary development plan review. Mr. Herb Baldwin, on behalf of Pflaumwell Development, pointed out the changes on the new proposal in relation to the previous proposal presented. e e REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING - August 29, 1979 Page 6 He stated that essentially there are very few changes to the scheme from the original concept. It is a significant change from the standpoint of density and kinds of housing units. The lay of the ground and the circulation is basically the same. The significant change is the omission of in this proposal, the condominium and apartment units have been omitted. The circulation has been modified to not come out on Pleasant View, but would tie up to lOl. On the previous scheme there were 389 dwellings on l47 acres, and now there are 300 units on l47 acres. Density has come from 2.69 down to l.9. The average lot size is 22,500 sq. ft. The smallest lot is ll,OOO sq. ft. He discussed the trails easement, the different phases of the development, and the access onto lOl. Clark Horn stated he felt it was important to have the information about the traffic available at the public hearing. That will be a very key issue for the public. Jack Bell moved to hold a public hearing on October lO, 1979, on this item, at a time set by staff. Motion seconded by Clark Horn and unanimously approved. OPEN DISCUSSION e The subject of John Shardlow's letter to the Chanhassen Planning Commission dated August 27, 1979, was brought up. The volume of papers for each Planning Commission Meeting was discussed, and the problem of not knowing when the papers are going to be delivered to each member for review. It was stated that the staff and secretarial force is tied up for the City Council agenda from Tuesday through Friday of the week previous. Reports for the Planning Commission are started Monday morning. It was also stated as far as the developers are concerned, there should be a check list for them to follow before they come before the Planning Commission. It was suggested that it might be time that the Planning Commission, the Park and Rec Commission, the Lake Studies Committee, the Community Facilities Committee get together on a barnstorming session to cover a multitude of topics ranging from dockage to lakeshore usage, to trailway systems, to lot sizes, to sewer assessments, to zero lot lines, to multiples, to condos, just to set some general intermediate or interim type guidelines prior to the culmination and completion of the overall guide plan, so we have something that is consistent and something that allows everyone to use as a guide until that time. Pat Swenson moved to adjourn the meeting. Motion seconded by Walter Thompson and unanimously approved. e Don Ashworth City Manager