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1980 03 26 . ..- PUBLIC HEARING REGULAR SESSION CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION The Planning Commission held its meeting at the Chanhassen Elementary School, Laredo Drive, Chanhassen, Minnesota on March 26, 1980. Present were: Clark Horn Michael Thompson Jim 'J'hompson Art Partridge Walter Thompson Bill Johnson Tom Hamilton Also present were: -- Craig Mertz, Assistant City Attorney Bob Waible, Asst. City Manager Mark Koegler, City Planner Gail Murphy, Chanhassen Resident Kathy Holtmeir, Chanhassen Resident Jim Murphy, Chanhassen Resident Roxanne Gregory, Chanhassen Resident Jean Way, Chanhassen Resident Laureen A. Kurimchak, Chanhassen Resident Carol Watson, Chanhassen Resident M.M. Kurimchak, Chanhassen Resident Dennis Baker, Chanhassen Resident Laurie Moran, Chanhassen Resident Tom Moran, Chanhassen Resident Bob Robenett, Chanhassen Resident Frank Krejca, Chanhassen Resident Susan Teeter, Chanhassen Resident Ellen Chilvers, Chanhassen Resident priscilla Armstrong, Chanhassen Resident Robert Armstrong, Chanhassen Resident Dale Geving, Chanhassen Resident Pat Swenson, Chanhassen Resident Don Slathar, Chahassen Resident Karol Nielsen, United Telephone Co. Gary Shalberg, Chanhassen Resident Russ Frederick, Chanhassen Resident Mary Lou Janssen, Chanhassen Resident Karen Blosberg, Chanhassen Resident D. Blosberg, Chanhassen Resident Cornelia Klein, Chanhassen Resident Marian Paulson, Chanhassen Resident Walter Paulson, Chanhassen Resident Wayne Holtmeier, Chanhassen Resident Betty Clark, Chanhassen Resident Tenil Clark, Chanhassen Resident . '7 ) ;f"! ~'.:tii e Keith Bartz, Chanhassen Resident L. Klein, Chaska Chuck Naber, Chanhassen Resident Betty Naber, Chanhassen Resident D. Riegert, Chaska Rick Riegert, Chaska Therese Quinn, Chanhassen Resident Gene Quinn, Chanhassen Resident Nora Casey. Chanhassen Resident Donald Coban, Chanhassen Resident Bette & Alan Mjolenes, Chanhassen Resident Gloria Cox, Chanhassen Resident Laura Cox, Chanhassen Resident Ralph Hanson, Carver Jim Waletski, Chanhassen Resident Ron Hurdey, Chaska Geo~ge & Connie St.Martin, Chanhassen Resident Robert Somers, Chanhassen Resident Bruce Arnold, Chanhassen Resident Mary LauChmiel, Chanhassen Resident Donald LauChmiel, Chanhassen Resident Gerry Maher, Chanhassen Resident Bob Mason, Chanhassen Resident Kim Waldorf, Chanhassen Resident James Meyer, Chanhassen Resident Linda Meyer, Chanhassen Resident Ed Dunn, Dunn & Curry Bruce Patterson, Suburban Engineering Jack Anderson, Traffic Engineer Stelios Aslanidis Jules Smith, Dunn & Curry Greg Ingraham Jim Orr, City Engineer Charles Robins, Chanhassen . Michael Thompson was administered his oath of office at 7:30 P.M. by Craig Mertz. Chairman Horn called the Meeting to Order at 7:45 P.M. BUILDING MORATORIUM EXTENSION, PUBLIC HEARING - Craig Mertz explained the purpose of the moratorium extension. The rational for extending the moratorium to the frontage road properties is that it is felt by staff that those properties down on the Highway #5 frontage road have a commercial influence on the downtown area and that development applications for commercial projects on the frontage road must be examined in light of their impact on the business proposed to be established in the downtown redevelopment district. This moratorium would extend until late this April and when the City Council votes on the downtown redevelopment project it will either terminate or be extended again to permit the completion of the downtown redevelopment project. Walter Thompson moved, Tom Hamilton second, to close the public hearing. Motion carried. 2 9 e It Walter Thompson moved, Art Partridge second, to recommend an extension of the building moratorium on the Highway #5 frontage roads with an extension date to coinside with the extension date of the building moratorium in the downtown redevelopment project area. Motion carried. LAKE SUSAN WEST PUBLIC HEARING Ed Dunn gave a presentation on the Lake Susan West proposed project. He illustrated the phasing, density allocations, gave a brief history, and review of the 350 acre project. Chairman Horn explained to the audience the functions of the Planning Commission and the purpose for this public hearing. He then opened the floor for discussion and comments. Kathy Holtmeier and Jim Murphy read the attached report/petition to the Planning Commission. (Attachment #1) Jim Murphy further: "I have one more thing that I would like to do and thats that we thought we were very good cirizens when the industrial park went in. There were about three concerns that we had and I would like to point out our track record on those three concerns. Maybe I can best illustrate it with a drawing. The first item I mentioned earlier and that is we didn't resist the industrial development but we expressed our concern about what was going to go up adjacent to it and we felt that it would be an ideal situation for and at that time we expressed our concern for single family. Now we are seeing multiple being proposed for the industrial park and also by the lake. In addition, there was one other item that we were very concerned about and we got very little satisfaction out of the Council. This is for anyone that is familiar with the area (he illustrated the area on a map) . We asked that this piece be preserved, which shouldn't be a problem for any planner, its wooded, it has slopes of 10-15%, normally you would expect that it be preserved. What we ended up with was a no-build line down here someplace (illustrated on map) and we ended up with a build elevation here of 935. So the developer now can actually removethat;h:ill,this is our vista. Many of the residents here live on the other side, this is what we wanted to preserve, it is probably the most ideal space to preserve. We wanted a place up here where the plowing...at the fence. I think the elevation mentioned was 945 or 948. But now the developer can actually cut down this hill and remove what would be our vista and these trees. In addition, I think there was confusion at the time that we were trying to get this request between the Planning Commission and the Council. Many thought that it meant .... to come over the top of the hill and come down to 935 and that they could not remove this hill, but I think they checked into it closely and it means that it actually could be excavated down here at 935. Many of us were frustrated and came up here to make another attempt to get our views across for this one particular reason. Another thing that happened, we were promised at the time that construction went in that there would be no pollution during construction and no problems and as the Watershed oversaw the 3 ^-" e e - installation and construction and they did an excellent job and therefore not to be concerned. When this sewer or interseptor trunk or whatever you want to call it was installed, there was first a snow fence placed here (illustrated on map) with hay bails that were placed in this position. But prior to that being placed, the dozers come out here and pushed all the stripping out on to the ice so what we had was all this debris and a situation like this with the snow fence and hay bails placed here later and all these waste materials that were on top were pushed out into this position. What happened is we did come up to the Council, the contractor tried to remove as much of this material as possible, but when they got down beyond the location of where the sewer was being installed with a backhoe they could not reach this material, so what happened to this material when the ice went out this spring was it went out into the lake. I would say that it was more pollution or more siltation then we could get in a decade. I believe that is all we have to say. Thank you" Chuck Naber: liMy name is Chuck Naber, I'm not a member of the Lake Susan Home Owners Association. I don't live close to any of these proposed developments, however, I am concerned about the future of Chanhassen. This is type of construction that we don't want in Chanhassen for one simple reason, the density is much to high. Thank you" Jim Meyer: liMy name is Jim Meyer, I live over on Ridge Road. I am not in the close area of the Lake Susan area and so on. But I feel the same way, our neighborhood approached the Planning Commission .... higher density some time back. I was here, and many of use were, when Mr. Dunn presented this thing originally. He said that the lakes were going to get clearer, the traffic was going to be less and the police protection was going to better. Now you know you have to be a good salesman to get any body to kind of believe that sort of thing. I think that one of the things wrong concerning Chanhassen is we don't want to be compared to Burnsville, Richfield, or thats reasonable density here, or thats reasonable density there, we want to be Chanhassen, we want to be what the people who have been paying the taxes and are here want and came here for. I think that is sort of the basic philosophic point. These people are all saying they're trying to preserve the things, the density is too high, they are saying that, well, because of energy problems you have to have humans closer together, but in actuality, people living in these close units like they are proposing aren't going to be able to go up to lake areas in northern Minnesota as easy as they did in the past. They are going to have to have more green areas for these people to have their recreation because they are not going to be able to travel as easily on week- ends. I think that getting the larger area for the park and recreation is going to show... some of these areas intersperse .... not just some of those areas over by the lake or on some of the swamp areas where they can't build. It would appear to me that for some reason the people in Chanhassen that have been here for many years give the impression to the planners or whatever that big is better. I think that communities around here that have recognized and gone ahead with this sort of high density building have been sorry later on and wish they had never gotten involved in it. I think those of us that read the Carver County paper 4 e e - Jim Meyer cont: "note its very obvious about the increased cost crime and burglary and rape and all the rest of this sort of thing. I know thats an emotional thing, but yet in actually, it is a realy true. And they can say these are cheap units, they cost $40-60- 70 thousand, but that is meaningless when you talk about inflation and what it has done. I think that it would be nice to reach some sort of compromise and reduce the size of this thing considerably and give the area that we all came here for to begin with a chance so that we can enjoy the things that we want. Dennis Baker: liMy name is Dennis Baker, I am a new resident in Chanhassen. I live over on Lake Riley Blvd. I am a business man and I am quite convinced that these gentlemen are businessmen to when I look at their project. I am new, its the first time I have been here. The issue of density is very striking in that its contrary to the whole reason I moved here. Before I moved here I asked alot of questions and talked to alot of people about different communities. There were a few communities that were high- lighted as being very proud of communities, the kind of communities that you would like to bring up your family in, and Chanhassen was one of them. I suspect that developments of this nature are not going to let us say this about this city ten years from now. Not only the density, I am also concerned with, maybe there are some answers to this question, I realy don't feel when I look at the concentration of development in the economic returns of this property these gentlemen are working towards, I realy don't see them giving much of anything to the people in Chanhassen. I guess thats basically the issue. I haven't heard anybody discuss schools, property for schools, I have heard somebody mention some low lying land and some unusable property that we were blessed with, but I haven't heard people talking about how you suddenly build this property and then try to support some 1200-1500 children in your schools on unapproved property taxes for a period of time. I have seen that destroy communities where they anticipate certain property after the property is developed but unfortunately the way normally property taxes work it takes 12-18 months before the community realy realizes any income from that property. Thank you" Gloria Cox: liMy name is Gloria Cox, I just moved into Chanhassen two years ago. We came from Bloomington and I don't have to tell you what went on in Bloomington. We settled in a beautiful, nice neighborhood community that was engulfed by business, hotels, restaurants, you name it. Alot of people who have worked hard for years, had retired out of the service, and these were the homes that these people were going to live in for the rest of their lives. They are still sitting there fighting off what happened with the building that has increased crime, they have had problems with the school and an awful lot of other problems. We moved out here to Chanhassen because we thought this would be a great place to raise our children. Here we have been here two years and we find out that we also will be doing the same things we did in Bloomington, and that is trying to make it safe for our children to grow up so that they can get a good education and as far as apartments go, I was an apartment dweller, and I can honostly say that as far as input into the community I have to agree, they don't realy have an awful lot to put in. And I think it would be realy great for our children to be able to grow up in a sound community type whe.re they don't 5 e e ~ have the hustle and bustle of the city because the city is alot of problems and I hope you will realy take this into consideration when you make the decision for whats going to happen in Chanhassen. Thank you. II Carol Watson:" My name is Carol Watson and I live on 7131 Utica Lane in Greenwood Sho~es. I am across the street from what is now Chapperal, New Horizons development. I am sorry to say that I am one of the people who slept through the New Horizon Development. But I am now proud to say that I am one of the people who are trying to tell you that we are not asleep anymore and we are watching and we do care. I am sure that Chapperal gave alot of people the impression that we didn't and I am sorry for those people who did, but now I am proud to be here with these people and say I do care and I don't want to see it happen again. I look out my windows and I can see those lights glowing over there all night long, seven nights a week and all those quad homes going up l.tke mushrooms and I am sorry, realy sorry, but I am not going to be sorry again because I didn't say anything. So I am here to say that these people are r.tght and I am proud to be part of a group that .tsn' t asleep in Ch^anhass^Sn Village. II Ellen Chilvers: "I agree with everything everybody has said so far. I picked out a little poem out of the Lake Minnetonka paper today written by a man in Lake Minnetonka. I think that its applicable for tonight. My name is Ellen Chilvers and I live at 6271 Hummingbird Road. 'Move out you ducks, here come the trucks. Flyaway geese, we have no lease. .... for picnic spots, turn them into townhouse lots. Bulldozers are coming, bus ... are humming. No feeling of guilt theres houses to be built. Why others.... land has no use unles's its developed. Knock down the trees before the first breeze, their raising inflation laying condo foundations. Where trees once stood... the woods. Folks moving in that will buy tangible goods. With houses complete, one each fifty feet, continuous....wall. As density thickens add joints for fried clUcken, we"ll need a few Dars plus lots selli'ng cars. With traffic congested .. lights are suggested. Remember when this' place was pleasant, a haven for the pheasant. And where are the deer? Theres' no more room for them here. It happened as we silently gaped watching the landscape being raped. A land of...natural race converted to a multi... I won't read the last line. II Bob Armstrong: liMy name is Bob Armstrong, I live on Great Plains Blvd. too and I guess I recUy object to the word preliminary. Turn your back on preliminary and then its all... great big tall buildings, multiple housing, apartments. The term preliminary, we got caught on that on the industrial complex and now we are stuck with that." Clark Horn requested further comments from the public. none. He then asked for comments from Ed Dunn. There were Ed Dunn: "I think it would be presumptious of me to try to respond to everything that has been said here. We would like to have a copy of the record and we will construct a response to it. By the way I did bring these little booklets for anybody that wants 6 e - - At thi:s time. Ed Dunn explained the two ba$$,C procedur,e.$' of the pun developing concept. wea,rei'n theplannrng process' concept. "Assuming that Lake Sus'an west was approved :herein concept as being an appropriate development, and I am not sug- gesting that that is going to happen tonight, I' don "tbelieve that it w.tll, I don't think that that was the intent here, if it were we would then h.aveto work in. any conditi'ons and r'ecom- mendat.tons that were made. We would try' to workwrth. them to bring those in to reflect what it ts' to reas'onable needs as thei.:r development. We would go to the Ci.:ty' Council wbere they then have their shot to revi'ew it and pretty ntUchthe same 'ma.nner as her-e, they could hold public hearings', they' are not required to, it i:s at the Counctl's dtscretion.. ..' By the way, we have undertaken at the suggestion of the sta.ff and encouraged by' a joint meeting tn,at was' held by your Plannin9 Commiss'ion and your Ci'ty Counci'l to use what I' call ...extra- ordinary' means' to advise the communi.ty' of the cii:y"s' plans'. Upon our application the City'ma.kes~ a pUDlicatton of the notices that they'mail to people weekly'. . ..i't was a limited distr:tDution mailed to people they wererequ.ired to wfthtn 350 feet of the property. Accord.tngly' I' asked that the Crty mail to every resident i'n the community at.my' expense. It is the intention that every' resident in th.e community' recei'vethes^Snotices. They' have taken special care to make surethi.s is' a well pub..- licized activity. I' am not going to try to respond in specifi.c$ for one th.ing I don't have ... and a copy of thepeti:tion... It's not to say that I don't agree witneverythi'ng I heard but I do respect it and we will try to respond to everything we heard a.s' bes't we can at a later time. ~. ThlS plan that I have here i's' one of the first introduced for pub1.ic display. You will ;fi'nd that the planned development we are now'presenti:ng incorporate Lake Susan West , LakeSus'an South, we have changed very little from what it was', althougn.we have done a.lot more detail. One maj Or detail i's' tnat at the discretion of everybody concerned... the land north of Lake Susan was identified in the Ci:ty" s plan as' industri'al when we arrived here Ci~llus'trated on plant. Th!s' particular part shows' high density in here... we aret;r:::yxng to follow' the procedure which is diCtated by your own ordinances~, by' the Metropolitan Counc:tl, wnichis' an agent of theS^tateLegislature, in the plans'... and what we actually think .is consistent wi'ththe C:tty" S' existing plans'... Is there a.nythi:n9 ;further that you feel r should expandon?" Cha.irman Horn: "What we would like to get into is the phi'losphy of why the different housing types are located in different areas. II Ed Dunn: "From the beginning this is very hilly, rolling ground... we recognize that and our plan$ do fit that ground. When you get into real rolling ground ~stgo in and bulldoze it all, put in streets,... basically we are trying to put our ideas around the terrian. It is not our intention not to respect the trees and terrain. There will be very' few'trees affected by this...ground. The wooded areas are generally, almost entirely, the green areas you see here (illustrated on plan)... . .lVework'.with the environ- ment. Those .lake problems ,Vie redognizethat. We. have to address ourselves to those problems and we are doing tnat. Now ,,;.hat about density, it was said earlier something about 3 versus 2 ~. 7 ^e e - is that what I heard. There are two ways to indicate density, I think that those sheets you have in your kits will hopefully show you. There are two terms used, one being gross density, thats the overall density, and the net density, the density that you have after you take out all the streets and so forth. The most commonly used is the gross density. Not in a part- icular block, but in the overall olan. So thats a consideration. In view of the cost of inflation,-the raising cost of interest, and the difficulties...our young people today who are our children are having the experience today that before they can get a house ... We have things called the Development Guide that was produced over a period of about five years by the Metro Council which has now become after many reviews and so forth at community levels, state level, and everything else, has become the guide. And they can come down and this and they dictate that this is the way its going to be, that you will provide a mixed opportunity for all levels of housing. Obviously it isn't going to do any good to try and create a project where nobody can buy anything. We can only expect to J)uild what we can sell. We do believe we can build a good mix...lf you were to say here tonight that there will be no growth in Chanhassen I could almost assure you with that news that the prospective developers would be inclined to say that we better look at this~ain..,The areas that you see in here (illustrated on map)i$ no.t the definition multiple dwellings, the bulk of y(!)Ur housing on the, lakeshore, in the first place there is no housing on the lakeshore, we have given up all the lakeshore rights to the City for park, it is true in both Lake Ann and Lake Susan. The lakeshc)l:,e itself will not be built on. The green areas do indicate that. The housing in this area is at a R2 density which would accomodate duplexes so its not apart- ment buildings...These here (illustrated) are townhouse types things, and these are apartments. Now the reason that this is townhouse, and these are apartments, is that when Co. Rd. 17... The County identified that road and is building it, so beginning with that and also the location of the industrial park, has something to do with this. This more or less prompted to build higher densities along the fringes of the Industrial Park. Thats part of it. You have to look at terrain and study it to maybe appreicate this. This .look"s like: it all. overlooks the lake, actually there is a short slope up from the lake then tapers down quite a bit and most of this is not apparent from the lake level. Then in turn if you have just as a general principal you don't put high density in back of low density residenti:al relative to the acess to the arterial street because you are running then those additional trips per day. The idea is to try to keep your higher density land uses next to your major streets and in this case we are talking about #l7. That coupled with the nature of the terrain being very steep, very hilly in that area, it makes sense to have a higher density Building there. In an earlier plan that we had, we had this kind of turned around. We found that because of the terrain and the roadways and so forth that it would make more sense to put it the other way. I am trying to answer questions that comes right down to an engineering grading terrain question. Mike Thompson: "How did you arrive at your total density? Just based on the Comprehensive Plan what you could have as maximum density and then based on what kind of land you are using?" 8 " e e - Ed Dunn: liAs a matter of fact I don't think I can tell you in the first place, the Comprehensive Plan as it exists is not finalized but I don't .,think this reflects the actual maximum density indicated by the Comprehensive Plan. I would be alittle surprised if it does. Mike Thompson: III think alot of people are concerned about the keeping of the rural charactors of this area and I am new on the Planning Commission. I haven't had the benefit of all of your meetings, but in the passed week I have spent alot of time driving through that property and getting all the material that we have here. I find it rather difficult to see where you are keeping the rural charactor and looking at your layout there I realy can't see it." Ed Dunn: "I think I should state flat out that we are developing to urban standards and we are not developing to rural standards." Mike Thompson: "According to our Comprehensive Plan, the pre- liminary plan, states that the population of the community is to continue to grow but that the reason the people are coming out here is to come out here for the trait which is this rural trait that I guess we all came out here for and I think alot... Ed Dunn: "I suppose that what it comes down to is whether there exists a natural... to retain the land, either retain land or to use land on the other side without regard to anybody elses rights. The land that we are advancing here for development to urban standards is land that is served by sewer, it falls within the Metropolitan Service Area, as defined by the Metro Council, Metro Sewer Board, and is land that has been identified as land which can be anticipated that urban development will occur. It is significant that after... we are talking about 350 acres tonight, the total land is 770 acres that we have for development under the 3 developments, and that is 5% of the gross land in the City of Chanhassen. I have never measured it but this heavy black line on that drawing shows clearly that the land lying to the north and east of that is land that is in the urban service area and thats the land that is expected to be develop to urban standards and the land outside of that is the land that will remain principally in its rural charactor, it isn't for me to say that but it is not contemplated inside the year 2000 that there be any utilities put into that land so that for the most you might expect a very low density type development. So we ~e talking about 5% of the gross land in Chanhassen, we are talking about after this is done there will be a considerable amount of Chanhassen that is not developable because of the MUSA line. Kathy Holtmeier: "I have two comments, first of all when you said it is only 5% of Chanhassen and it is going to double our population, what are we going to be looking at in the other possible developments, and that is what frightens me, the density of that. Secondly, when we were trying to find out more about the development, we asked if there had been an environmental impact study done and we were informed that it did not warrant the environmental impact study but something called an environ- mental asses'sment worksheet. I was appalled to find out that 9 - e It it was Dunn & Curry who conducted the environmental assessment worksheet. And then I realized that that was common practice, although I do think that could be biased in your favor. But I am upset that there has not been, or you have not given us, any kind of matter from your environmental assessment worksheet. Ed Dunn: "We cannot do, physically, an environmental assessment of a non-project. We cannot do the assessment until we have the preliminary approval... We cannot advance an environmental assessment of anything, worksheet, impact statement, without basic approval. And the first and most basic of these approvals is at the City level. II Kathy Holtmeier: "I think somebody better conduct an environmental study of this before approval." Ed Dunn: "We will be conducting an environmental assessment... Kathy Holtmeier: "But is that after the fact?" Are we stuck... Ed Dunn: "No, you aren't stuck with the project because if there is anything wrong in the environmental assessment or environmental impact statement should it follow then that will have to be addressed. II Kathy Holtmeier: "It's just one more step, you're close to your development and its accomplished by you. You're the one who has the worksheet done. It seems to me that an impartial body should study the effect on the lake. It shouldn't be something that is formualted and presented by the developer." Ed Dunn: "I will try to explain alittle bit about what the process is. It has to start with the developer because nobod:~t else .knowsp what it is -we want to do with our land. We come up with the plan that we would like to undertake with respect to our land. We have to go through a certain process, of which this is part, seeking City approvals. We arrive at the point where it is alright, but before we can proceed we have to do ... and that means we get Our land use concept approvals. Then we need to do the environmental assessment. We put in, assemble the data, submi.t tJ::; to the City to evaluate and this in turn, I am not sure, but in the case of two environmental impact statements that we did in the City of Eagan, were circulated to 47 different governmental agencies. The DNR, state Water Quality etc. It was a very long process. Now you do that when it is required to do s^o. If there i"s nothing required in this undertaking then you don't have to do it. But we do have to do an environmental assessment worksf1eet." Chairman Horn: II I think .it m.tght be important to point out th.at any approvals that are given are cont;tngent upon the successful completion of that statement." Carol Watson: "I think that you will find that alot of people here tonight do not have anything to do wi'.th Lake Sus.an west. I think that is the point of alot of people being here. He's talking about 5% of the land but if he does that, you can bet we'll be here fighting this battle for the other whatever percentage 10 e e -- of Chanhassen Village is left to be developed. That is our concern, if this happens now, this may be 5% of the land that he is talking about tonight, but you're talking about alot of Chanhassen Village that someone else is going to come in or Mr. Dunn himself and start this allover again. And we are going to be up here every other week trying to oppose some project in some part of Chanhassen Village that is talking about this kind of density. I don't live near Lake Susan west but I am concerned about them because it is ultimately going to hurt all of us. We are not just talking about this 5% of the land. Roger Casey: liMy name is Roger Casey and I live on Lake Susan. I was interested inthe comment that first of all the builder has to know what he is going to protect on the land because I attended a meeting a couple of years ago at the Lutheran Church here where the developer said that he could live with a 945 elevation across... that just isn't the way... Bob Waibel: "We did address this in~evelopment contracts which states there is to be no building belO\v the existin9935 elevation. Roger Casey: "Then he shouldn't build it at all. Everything he has is above that elevation, then they shouldn't build anything over there. Evreything over there is above 935 contour. The lakes at approximately 928 so what he is doing is illegal then. Every bit of the development land over there is above 935. We are talking about location in the hillside. II Bob Waibel: "I would suggest that at the time that was reviewed it was being represen~ as being the 935 elevation of the north side of the shore of Lake Susan. stakes were placed out there and that is where the City Council and Planning Commission had toured. Those stakes . were placed on the northerly ITOst 935 isopleth. Roger Casey: "My point is that some of these things must be relevant to getting some kind of approval because if we can sit down and say 945 is the elevation we are going to it not only becomes apparent that something more can be got in different ways but this chang~s..: Ed Dunn: "I think we are trying to deal with misunderstandings. I have no intention to violate that...on that no build line. Now I honostly can't say if its 935 or 945, I don't think thats the issue. But in looking at it I can certainly agree that its my impression that probably means roughly... and you should not expect any... of the hillside trees...I would say that if you would like a member of your committee, Home Owners Association, come in and discuss that with us we would be glad to discuss it and tell you specifically where we think we are on that." Alan Mj olenes : II My name is Alan Mjolenes and I live on Lyman Blvd. I have just one question. It seems to me that he has not mentioned whether he is going to personally be having one building ... my understanding is that he isn't. If that is the case, how are we going to have any certainty of the type of quality that we will end up with... II 11 - Bob waibel: "Wtth the planneduni;t deyeloprqent op tIle planned development procedure we as' part of. th.t,~:I' plan reVter~'i' We,CO'llle up with what we call a development contract. A,S' part of the development contract with regard to thi,s~ deVelopment nerewe will probably' reconunend probation that would say' that all the. third and fourth phas'es' that axe now' b.eingproposed, everything exclusive of the fi.rst phases: at this' t.i1ne, are contingent upon reviews that would besubmitta.1 of architectua.l data ,.Ii:Ke the apartments, thetownfiOmes, onlY' s:in9'lefamily perhaJ;'s', there would be a new'oui:lder coming in for thetnird phase of Lake Susan Hills' south. Also these particular plans,' for the apart...., ments', commercial, thetownhoItles', would also besuoject. to site plan reviews. Their feaS~'Di:lity will nave to be proven on a ve'JJY detailed nas'is' when the'y' are being proposed for any type o~ construction. New' Horizon abIDes is~ cons:idertng the . Lake Ann PUD portion, Ori:n Tfiompsoll is' considering Lake Susan Hi.lls west.. The action of the Planning CC>1l'l1uis'S2,on and the City' Council in regard to these plans:- wi~ll be actually' and directly' a.f.fected. .. upon those policies and objectives. This' is' the whole public hearing process. Mtke ThoItlpson: . l'Mr. waibel .tsn" t it true though that there. is a pos's.tbility' tha.t there a.re s'01llebuilding requirements that are de;t:icient in the City' code now, for instance we don't require garages and things' like that do we?" e Bob Wa.t,bel: U Tha.t I S' correct, we. don It. 1,1 e -- SUsan Teete;r;: III am $usa,n Te,e.ter, 1155 Willow Creek. I: have approxi'mately' a, half an acre of ;t:rontageon :Powers' B:lvd. and Co. Rd. 17 . We bought our hous^S8 years ago and a,t that ti1ne we used all of ou;t:' property. A,t thi~s point :r would consider half of II}Y ppoperty' ab,solutelY worthles^$> to me. 1 ca.n It let my children p),aY' olit the;re, thetraf;t:ic has 9'otten so b.ad, our fence, we had ~plr~t., . . fence when we 'ffioved out here, the;t:ourthtime it got mowed down we decided to takei,',t,' down and leavett down. I am ~, . . - -. ' . conce,pned about thetraf;t:ic. I haven"t heard anything, what :kind of ppi:cearewet,alk.tng about here, wl1at wi,ll thes.e homes sell for? 'I Ed Dunn; II'I would say they' wtll be. price,d any where f;r:om $70- l4a~ .... ~50, thousand. II . Sue Teet.e,r: 'IApe these, h01lle,s. goin9 to be low' incO'llle fam:tl.tes moving in our way'? II Kathy" Holtmei,ex: I' Can. :J:: '1llakeone cOnJ1l}ent here. One of use called the Met:t:o Counci:l a.nd they s:-aid that w:tththe.c01llpletion of Ch,apparel Cha,nhassen will now' be.eli9iolefor low j;:ncOIDe housing. II Sue Teeter: "]\nother point :r would liRe to bring up, altl10ugh the environmentaltsts' say' thatmul tipledwell.t,ngs are much more energy efficient than s'inglefamrly units' I"d like to point out that Chanhassen, my judgement of di.stance 'ffiay' be'a pit off, but II d say we are lO to l5m.tles west of any'major indus'trial development. Thats going to be 'alot of gas. for people 'to have to drive in to work. 12 e e e Another po.tnt I would like to /n)ake, ;i:,$,tbe,;ea,ct tha,t +> w'Ould It~e, to know' how' we compar'eto our nej:,ghb'ortn9 cOIt)mun:tt:te~' a.S' fa,;r as our minimum lot si.zerequiremerit~;c.. r think lS('lOs:q'. ;ft... t:$: a bit small. Mr. Dunn also...., th.at your deVe.lopm.etit wi'll d;raw' industry to Chanhass'en. I thi'nk.thequesti.on thatma.y' bea.sked f is do the citizens of Chanhass:en want industt'y? Thank YClU \l Jim Murphy: n I h.ave a couple concerns' aooutMr., Punn"s' cOItJIllents. One was: the .-t:ndustrialarea l?rovi.dinc;J a,ll the.seta~e$' 1$:0 the r.es:t, of us prooably' won ~'t have toga to work, I: don 'tknow'o But with the fiscal disparities proc;Jram 40% of tha;t is derived from that industria,l area will go into a. pool and beredi~stributed to the. Metropoli~tan area. So i':t's realy' que.s:ttonable. whether that 60.% is Iijarginal to support the servicesth,a;t a.rene,eded for it. The other thing Mr. Waibel sai'd i':s' with all this developrrtent, tne increased taxe.S, a.nd S'O on, tts' llla,rgina.blewhether we "re better off 0;1::' not so well off, financially" I think, what all tne people a,re s'ay'i~ng that as long as i':ts: lllarg:tnal, lets keep t,t the way it is:, and keep it rural beca.use apparently there are no great advantages. The third thtng i.s' tne ;MUSA. li.ne. r would like to 'm.a,ke a. point of that.. Why' is i':t so convenient that that line goes' a.round Mr'. Dunn ': s' property'., I.'m say that its' not the Metro Counctl that sets i~t, it "s' not the 11etropolitan Waste Control COIt\Ill.tss t,on that sets i~t, i't ~ S' the, Ci'ty' here, and tts Because Mr. Dunn owns the land. That line has' cnanged' many ti1IJe S'O it's local political influence that cha;nged that 'MUSA line. l' wi:sh. you wouldn" t blame it on the Metropolitan Council. Another point now' is' EJ?A. is encour.aging on-si.teey'stems' i'f you have a place for it., WeW0n "t need urbanization like this', we are finding that it i:s' cheaper to treat sani,tary' wasteon-si.te, if your lots big enolJgh( your..... area.ppropria,te, its'actually cheaper than cQlle(;t.:j.'ng it and tak.ingi':t downtown and treating i't at the Metropolitan Wastea.nd wate.I! Treatment Plant. So their actually' Qfferin9an i'ncentive in terllls'of federal..."'. to 90 this way'. Thepeape other agenci'es and federal agencies that realy' don. "t agpeewi'tha,ll this uroani,zati'on thi:s fa.r out. Thank you. tl Cb.a.t-;ru)a,n Horn: tll would like to lllake.one coIt)n}ent regardi'ng that. We pece:tye the. (>ublicattons of the. 'Metro:politan Counci'l and wi'th regapq t.o the'MUSA ~i'ne .a;ndhow'i~ts' set I:"m not S.ure wha.t the .:;:rif;I,lJences a,X!e, and how,tha,t.goes'( but I' do know' what the influences a.pe 0,:1; the;r1e,tropoli,tan Council, a,l:'e a.sfar as: housing types' and + do :know' wha.t they' are pushi'ngfo;rtha.twa,y'.. They: a;r:epushi'ng fop th,in9s' tl'1a.t are hi.gne.r den$:tty' and ... .' . ,. l1a,pcia KUJ:<i'nlchak: nl am 'Ma.rcia, Kurtm.chak, Greenwood Shores.. ~OlJ ha,vema,de,peference to thet1etro Counci'l, ,and Mr. Dunn I nQttced two op thre.e tillles: tried to givethei'mpression that the t1et;r:o Counci'l app;rove,s~ with:th.:t:s: highdens'i'ty ho:US'i'ng a,nd thi,s is not true. Tlley' w;tl1 deny it. 'They;' say they' arcetrying to encourage development w:tthin. the inner cities',tbey' do not encourage high dens'ity' housi~ng anywhe,pe. i,n t:b.e, Qutl~tn,g a,pe~$, because of the energy' thats'~nvoJ,ved,tl'1'e,ga,$;ol,~'ne'ftlieX'$a,itl.~ t.ber don't encourage it all all and they' ca.nnot be blan)ed; ;fop an~t cQnJ\ecti':on .tn this at all. n 13 e e e Harcia Kuri'Incha.k: II There, was S:On}eth~n~ els;e tha,t wa,$: saj::d, ~ don't know if it can be answer-eo., ~'don .'t even k.now' $,f l' can get in trouble for aSking it. A.I?pa;r::ently' s~ome ind.:j;v;t:dual nas~ said been there at the Metro Council and' has Been Dra9'gi'ng,and I repeat bragging, that he will get thepopula.tic;m of Chanhas'sen past thel5, 000 mark between 5 and 7 years'. Now' It<wotJ.ld be interesting to know' who this' gentlemen i.$:' or the'individual is, and see if mayoe this is why' i'.t has' gotten as' far as' it has'.., II. Chairman Horn: "I would liket.o rec01l!mend to thos:eof you who haven't seen some of tl1.e 'Metropolitan Council puBl:tca,t.:t,c>ns', we have them on file at the City Hall and I thinR.rt would Bei'nter'" esting for you to go and s-ee them.1i Jim Meyer: II One last que set ion Mr. Dunn, why can't you double the lot size and cut the nun$er of units~in half?II Ed Dunn: UThe question wa.s why'can't :1:: doubletJie.lot sizes'. There ape two things' we havehea.rd qui,tea. bi,t of discus's'ionlqJ~,out tonight. If i: buiHi, s'ay' perhaps~Y' lotwidtiL.tSc 9:0 fee,t for e~aIl\ple, and I go tolao- feet. . I' have an average lot width of 90 feet, today' it costs' app;roxi1nately $lO,OO.a to s^Srvicethat with uti'lit;tes:, now' that includes' that lots' portion of the street imp;r:Qyerqent, i.f I' then. gO to lao feet I' double that cost. rou can find it in theengi:neeri:ng statistics,that the cos:t to maintain a street over a period of . ten years by' the City approximates the ori:ginal cos't of the. street.. $0 I got a $20,0,0.0 cost plus' I h~vedoubled or 'mor'e 'illy cos'ts', I' ha.d to servi.cethat street... The;re would be prOblem because I would never sell the lot a,t todays' cos'ts., ~ "'. I' would not develop the ground ts thef irst reas^On, the second one i's it would p,e Very' expens'ivea.nd we do not have a.It\arket and the City'would have a very high,maintenance cos:t pe:r' uni't, that pers'0ns taxes' th.en would have to be tremendous. Tbere i:s' noth;!.'ng in the pi'ct1lre:today that supports'1l\oving in tbat di:recti:on' and I' think you "ll find evi'dence Of that if you will ;J:7ead, the 'Metro COllnci:l" $' hOus.:i-~ng' pOlt,cie.s, their current develoPIrlentgui'des, and s:o on. You ca.n call over there, they' are ye;J:7X: good a.bout surrending thi'se infa>rmati.:.on. S'OTI\eti'm.es: . they' wtl.l charge you a d,ollar or se for thes~booklets. Call the Metro Counci'l. in St. Paul and tell them wha.t you want, that i's wha,t :J::' do. II' 'liI1?\lte;J:7 Thompson: 'IJ?resently s,ervi:ngmy' tbird term on th.eR J..a,nni:ng Comrn.i,s.~ion to thebe$~ of 'It\y' knowiedge.'tha.t MUS1\.. L.j:neis' still . wberei:t wa.s when I' j o.i:ne.d, the C01'l'lm.i.ss:f.on. I am not aware that it bas been changed in thela.st 6 or 7 years, at lea.st in our a,rea... II. ;Mapk KQe,9'ler: If~y na:rne .j:,s' 'Ma.r-R: Koegler, I' a}ll w~th,the City planning ~ta~~~ r ~mostly res~onsi:~leI. gue$~ for theComprehensi:ve Plan, and,coor.d,j:a.ti:on o;J;that with. the, planning CQmmi$:s~:ton. We have been working on that ;Eor $'Ometi'nle, J' have a.lot of dealings with the 'Metropoli:tan Council. Hopef'ully' I' am not the. one that anyone ha.s tagged for being over there bragging about how' we axe' trytng to grow' becaus-ethats' never been the case . Clark;t:s' referring to the c;tty' of Eden pra.i'riethat completed their Pla.nin draft form probably twomonths~ ago, they' s'UOIni'tted it to the 1-1etro Council for review after they had suomitted to adjacent municipalities as 14 e e e required by law, the Council reviewed their plan, they specifically targeted on certain areas, and I don't know necessarily what they found fault with, I know in general terms that the housing element of the Eden prairie plan was one of the things that rendered the entire plan unfit for review. What the Council did then in esence was give it back to the City of Eden Prairie and said these are the things that need to be changed. Alot of that had to do with housing, specific goals. Again I don't know what the specifics were in their case and why it was thrown back. I haven't been furnished with that information. There was a comment made earlier about subsidized units. We are under the housing plan again of the Metropolitan Council, and Chanhassen, as well as every other community in the metropolitan area has been allocated what they call fair share of low and moderate income units. This is one of the provisions of the metropolitan land planning act, in fact its on of the only provisions of which we actually have to do and the City of Chanhassen has to provide housing for the low and moderate income individuals. They have given us a target goal of 280 units as a minimum over the next 10 year period. That is in writing, I have that available in the office as well as many of the other publications that have been men- tioned tonight that you are welcome to look at. You would have to look at them in the office. Anyway thats the type of goal they have set for us in terms of overall low and moderate income housing units. They further tie that to a 3 year what they call a fair share goal which is tied to federal funds only, it does not look at state funds. When they look at that they are talking about 26 to 28 units in the next three year period. I would point out I guess that I don't believe that the housing we are talking about here necessarily qualifies as low and moderate income. That would be a designation of a unit that would sell significantly less than the lowest price unit you are looking at here. What we have to do is recognize in our plan element that we are going to somehow work towards the realization of the goal that they have established. If we fail to do that, first of all, our plan will be thrown back at us just as Eden Prairie's was, it won't be reviewed. Under the law there are certain legal complications that can happen. In essence what it boils down to is if we don't prepare a plan that is approved by the Council, they can basically prepare a plan for us. Obviously we don't want that to happen. The way that they realy get the teeth into the matter is that the Metropolitan Council is what is known as the A95 review authority for the area as a whole. That means that they review all of the federal funding, state grant applications and so forth that any community goes for, whether it be community development block grant money, LAWCON money for park, aging and senior centers, you name it, they have got a very broad base power there. In that review they can say that Chanhassen has not shown progress towards meeting its housing goals, therefore, we would recommend denial of whatever grant or whatever is that we are going for. It is that particular point where realy, they have the emphasis of the law." Mike Thompson: "Within the PUD concept you can solve some of these problems by definition." 15 e Mark Koegler: "Yes, there is enough flexibility within a PUD that you can solve alot of problems.1f Bob Waibel: "I would like to add to Walter Thompson's comment before about the MUSA Line... Chanhassen is kind of unique in that it is probably the only community that has a legal description of the MUSA Line... Dennis Baker: "I keep listening to density. If our City plan allows for this type of development with this types of density, there is nothing wrong with Mr. Dunn, there is something wrong with our City plan.1f e Ed Dunn: "Before I find myself in the position of that person over at the Metro Council we have, in with New aorizon, we have entered into agreement in which under they would have the rights to develop the Lake Ann property. The proposal is that they specifically would develop Phase I and that would be discussed at the hearing on that subject. In the case of Orin Thompson, we are in the discussion stages with them, we are trying to make our designs compatible with their needs of market for product and it only involved Phase I of Lake Susan West and maybe I haven't well enough described what Phase I, that would be the big numeral I west of #17 and would involve principally single family dwellings. (illustrated on map). The other property we have no commitments on. If it occured we would be either handle on going options or seek out other builders. I just like to keep the record straight, if you see Orin Thompson tomorrow he has not signed our paper." Don Koppen: "Don Koppen, Sunset Trail. It is my understanding that we will again discuss the Lake Susan Hills west after the next meeting. Again there will be some more discussion... Chairman Horn: "We have the option of either extending the public hearing, extending public comments, or extending our discussion and recommendations. I believe that we will obviously extend our recommendations tonight until some later date since we like to hear... II Gloria Cox: liAs far as Mr. Dunn has reported tonight, everything is kind of in a planning stages... if there is' going to be more people moving into our area and there wi.ll be more problems that we will need more police, fire officials, so forth, I haven't heard much mentioned about whether Chanhassen will have to have its own school because Excelsior, will they always be able to take an overflow of children into their school district? Will we have to eventually build right here in Chanhassen for our children because we can't take just a gross bunch of kids and keep shipping them...Is there anything in the planning?.." e 16 e Bob Waibel: "We have had several meetings with the superintendant of schools and we are expecting some more review and research data from him regarding the overall planning of the school district. He may also have some comments included by the school board..." Art Partridge: "We have here Judy Blanchard, who is the editor of the Carver County Herald. This is your newspaper. I assume that most of you are here because you got the mailing. The Carver County Herald does cover all that goes on in Chanhassen the best they can and it gives us alot better coverage than we would get with most papers. We had somebody approach us about more meetings, I would suggest that you subscribe to the paper if you haven't already." Michael Thompson moved, Art Partridge second, to extend the public hearing until April 9, 1980. Those in favor: Art Partridge, Michael Thompson. .. .~pposed: Walter Thompson, Jim Thompson, Tom Hamilton, william Johnson, Clark Horn. Motion denied. Walter Thompson moved, William Johnson second, to close public hearing regarding Lake Susan west. 'I'hose in favor: Walter Thompson, William Johnson, Jim Thompson. Opposed: Clark Horn, Tom Hamilton, Art Partridge, Michael Thompson. Motion denied. Tom Hamilton moved, Jim Thompson second, to close public hearing portion and that the Planning Commission receive written comments ~ from the public until April 2, 1980. Motion carried. e 17