PRC 1993 02 23
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CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 23, 1993
Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:30.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Fred Berg, Jim Manders, Jim Andrews, Ron Roerer, Larry
Schroers, Dave Koubsky, and Jan Lash
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer,
Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Program Specialist
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: 8erg moved, Lash seconded to approve
the Park and Recreation Commission dated January 26, 1993
Jan Lash on pages 8 and 12; and by Fred Berg on page 47.
favor and the motion carried.
the Minutes of
as amended by
All voted in
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
CHANHASSEN ESTATES PARK AND REQUEST TO SPONSOR THE CHASKA JUNIOR OLYMPIC
VOLLEYBALL PROGRAM AS AN AFFILIATE OF CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION.
Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers, Commission members. The first
request under Visitor Presentation comes from Ginny, Nathan, Sam and John
Hamilton. I believe Mr. Hamilton is here this evening. Right back here.
Ginny and the boys came in about a week and a half ago to discuss the
~ situation in regard to playground equipment, specifically the lack of
equipment at Chanhassen Estates Park. As the Commission is aware, the
park currently contains a two belt swing unit. Wood picnic tables have
been placed in the park in an intermittent basis over the years.
Specifically those have been used mostly by DataServ employees who come
over to have lunch in that location. The neighborhood probably makes use
of them as well. The Commission's 5 year capital improvement program does
include $2,000.00 this year for the purchase of new heavy duty coated
metal picnic tables and $25,000.00 next year for the installation of a
basketball court. The Hamilton's are here this evening to address the
Commission in regard to their desire to see additional play equipment
installed in the park in a more rapid type pace.
Lash: You're talking $2,500.00, not $25,000.00.
Hoffman: Oh excuse me, $2,500.00. Thank you.
like to address the Commission in that regard.
Mr. Hamilton, would you
Your first name sir?
Russell Hamilton: Russell.
Hoffman: All these other folks are neighbors just like you. They're here
to talk about another park so don't be intimidated.
Russell Hamilton: Well, it came about because our, we just bought the
house in September and backyard backs up to the park so the kids have used
it since then. And they have just requested to have some play equipment
put in. That was something that children could use because there are many
~ small children right in our area. In fact there have been two families
that have moved in since we moved in and both of them have children, even
smaller than ours. So the kids had come with my wife to ask about getting
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 2
'""""'*'
play equipment put in the park. I don't know what the planning these
picnic tables for this year was.
Schroers: How many kids are we talking abour roughly?
Russell Hamilton: On the cul-de-sac that we are on there are 6 children
that are preschool. And our's backs up to the park and I think everybody
else's land is pretty close. And the other family that moved in, I
believe one child is probably in 2nd or 3rd grade and the other child's a
little bit older.
Schroers: And is the neighborhood fully developed or are there going to
be additional people moving in?
Russell Hamilton: No, it's fully developed. This is the older section of
Chanhassen Estates. It's been since, our house was put in '69.
Schroers: And do you have any specific type of equipment in mind that you
were looking for?
Russell Hamilton: I believe, I didn't come in because it was during the
day. The children came in and talked to him. I'm not even sure, what's
your name?
Hoffman: Todd.
Russell Hamilton: About what could be put in within the price range that
they were talking about for picnic tables. I don't know what it was.
....""
Hoffman: We paged through catalogues that day and obviously when
residents who are used to dealing with prices on residential type
playground equipment, when you open up a picture and you say, that looks
like a reasonable piece of equipment and the price tag is 8 or 10 or
$12,000.00. It brings you back to reality fairly quickly. The amount of
money here for picnic tables, we could certainly, is $2,000.00. We could
certainly make do and get by with bringing some wood picnic tables from
Lake Ann Park to get by for a couple more years but simply put $2,000.00
does not buy you a lot in playground equipment. In fact, if you buy a
piece of playground equipment, you're going to spend the $2,000.00 in the
border and the reselient pea gravel to go around that thing. So if you
would, if the Commission would see fit to take action in '93, you're going
to have to look to a budget amendment which includes a portion of your
contingency dollars or postpone this until 1994 and budget a larger
allocation.
Schroers: I think that it's going to be difficult to make an on the spot
decision on this without comparing it and looking, reviewing our budget
again and seeing. I mean we're just going to have to take a look at this
in proportion to the budget and evaluate it and see if we think it's worth
it to put that kind of money into the investment that maybe 6 people are
going to use.
Russell Hamilton: I'm sure there's more than 6 kids. We just moved in so
we haven't met all of the neighbors but that's just on the cul-de-sac we
....."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
If!"""" February 23, 1993 - Page 3
live in. Then there's a cul-de-sac on Cheyenne as you go around towards
Dakota. And then I know there are school aged kids on Dakota because the
bus drops them off, 4 or 5 kids right there. So that's about a half a
block from the park.
Schroers: How far do you have to go to an existing play area?
Russell Hamilton: . An existing one is Rice Marsh, which is 4 or 5 blocks
down and it's down a fairly big hill for small children.
Schroers: So it's 4 or 5 blocks?
Russell Hamilton: Right.
CJan Lash's voice was not being picked up directly by a microphone so the
quality of the recording was very faint.)
Lash: Typically we're not inclined to make budget adjustments unless it's
a situation where it's maybe a safety issue that we have to deal with.
And so I guess I would look at the '93 budget for this and see that we're
fairly set...could postpone the $2,000..00 and just use the other picnic
tables if we wanted to. Hold that money off...and then next year we have
the basketball court money scheduled to go in there and that's going to
eat up...put in a half basketball court, I don't know how much space we're
,-.. going to have left for a lot of playground equipment...have to look at and
try and budget something...would take a study on our part to see how much
useage it would get and... It would be $10,000.00 to $20,000.00 to put in
new play equipment in the park...parks that have nothing in their area at
all.. .
Schroers: We realize that that's not totally convenient, especially with
small kids but we can't build a play area for each specific cul-de-sac in
the city.
Russell Hamilton: Well we had no idea what the costs were until the kids
had come in you know. So we just, because there were so many small kids
and the park was already there, we had no idea what it would take.
Koubsky: I remember we looked at this park and we looked at this during
this year and last year's budget sessions and Rice Marsh Lake, which is
down the road, did get some new playground equipment and what not in the
not too distant past. We did look at this and kind of opted not to put in
some playground equipment in this park because it was pretty small. Rice
Marsh Lake has a little bit bigger draw to it and we kind of were
satisfied with leaving this as a little bit open. Putting up some hoops
in there in order to give the folks something to do rather than just
sitting on a picnic table. There were some swings there and the size of
the park, and you know the draw on it, we kind of were satisfied to leave
it at that...parks that were a little more centralized. Would draw more
kids.
,-.. Schroers: I think that also we decided on a half basketball court because
it was a neighborhood that's been there and it had been established for a
while and we thought that possibly the age group of the people that were
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 4
--'
going to be using it were going to be a little older. Usually when you
got the brand new neighborhoods, the children are younger than the
neighborhoods that have been established for a while. By the time we get
the money and everything and get a play area in there, then _it's like,
w~ll our kids are too big for that; We don't want a play area now. We
need tennis courts and basketball hoops.
Lash: I think our other thinking on that was too, the location being ne.ar
...what we had heard, and we have to go by what we hear and now we're
hearing something different from you. But what we had heard at that time
was most of the useage was from employees from those business. Coming
over at lunch hour and that type of thing. That's why we were going for
the picnic tables and basketball hoops. That was more of an adult thing.
Russell Hamilton: What we heard was, up until probably the past 4 to 5
years that the original people that built the homes were still mostly in
the neighborhood. And that's now changing over and we're getting the
second generation of people buying the used homes and having their
families with smaller children.
Schroers: Instead of what we call a totlot or a play area where it's more
of an elaborate situation with something like just a set of swings that
have like 3 swings or something like that, would that help the situation?
Koubsky: I think there's 2 now.
Russell Hamilton: There's a swingset, I think it does have 2 swings. You
know I, like I said, we're just so new to the area that we just had
brought this up so I don't know what other people in the area have felt
about the park at all. We circulated a little flier to tell people that
it was happening tonight. If anybody wanted to come. Like I said, we've
only been there since September and our children are really, our youngest
one's in second grade so we're, the oldest one, he's thinking. Wow, this
is great. I'll have a basketball court in a year. But the youngest ones
were the ones that I thought about the play equipment.
--'
Hoffman: We talked at length that day about singular components. Say we
enclosed the swingset with a slide for $4,000.00 to $5,000.00. Probably
closer to $5,000.00. You could accomplish that with the border wood and
reselient surfacing, which should go underneath that swingset anyway. And
then put a singular unit slide or some other piece of separate equipment
into that little play area. That's one possibility.
Schroers: Okay. Well, I think that that is something that we're going to
have to plug into the budget. The budget for '93 has already been set and
it doesn't leave a lot of room for adding and subtracting and that sort of
thing. If we plug more into Chanhassen Estates Park, we have to take it
from somewhere else and that just starts a big chain of events and pretty
soon we're redoing our whole budget. And when you start doing that, it's
very difficult to get anything accomplished so what we're going to have to
do is consider your request when we look at the budget for 1994.
Everything is dollars and all I can say is we'll try to do the best that
we can.
.....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 23, 1993 - Page 5
Russell Hamilton: Okay, thank you.
Schroers: Thanks for your time.
Hoffman: Second under Visitor Presentation is a request to sponsor the
Chaska Junior Olympic Volleyball program as an affiliate of Chanhassen
Park and Recreation. Is Gail here? Ms. Gail Murphy of 8500 Great Plains
Blvd. will be addressing the Commission. She is here. In a phone
conversation with Ms. Murphy I cautioned her that although the Commission
is very willing to review such requests, that the City cannot be the
sponsoring agency for all special interest groups which Chanhassen
residents take part in. Again, the impetus for this request lies in the
District #112 Facilities Reservations Policy whereas such organizations as
the Junior Olympic Volleyball Program, cannot independently schedule gym
space. Thus they need to be affiliated with the Chanhassen Park and
Recreation Department or the Chaska Park and Recreation Department, or the
School District, such as the Athletic Association is, for us to reserve
gym time for them. Gail.
Gail Murphy: First thing, I don't know if you passed these out to the
other members but I had a typographical error. I said that in this paper,
it should have been 2,000 girls instead of 20,000. That's a lot of
people. While I'm here is, we started many years ago in the, 1984 in
fact, a Junior Volleyball Program for young girls age 14. And as the
.~ girls progressed in age, we moved onto 16, then 18's and then keps 14's
and so on and so forth. So over the 9 year period of time, we've moved a
lot of girls through this program. When Mr. Hoffman calls it a special
interest group, I kind of take exception with that. Inasmuch as these
young women have nowhere else to play in the city at this age group level
other than their high school sports. And by the way, we recommend that
these girls, all these girls, no matter what age group they're in, that
their high school or their elementary school sports do come first and this
is something that they choose to do as an extracirricular thing. and
that's what they do. In fact, most of our girls do play basketball and
some spring sports and they play volleyball at the high school level and
that's why we started this was to help strengthen the program in the high
school. Through the years, when we first started there were approximately
8 teams in the State of Minnesota. Now there are 200, and if you notice
there's a power league sheet on the back. Almost every community in the
State has these girls participating in junior volleyball programs. To be
competitive at the high school level, this is really a necessity. Not
that it's, that every girl has to do it. But if they want to play and if
they want to be successful, they play. My husband and I no longer have
children that are involved in this program. Our daughter's been gone for
4 years. She's playing now at the collegiate level which is very nice for
her. But that's neither here nor there. We just feel that there is a
real need for these young women to be able to participate, if the desire
is there and right now there is nothing for them other than this Chaska I
volleyball and now there's another Chaska volleyball program that's taking
place in Chaska. Mary Daley runs that group and it's called Chaska II.
So consequently even one group wasn't enough for the number of girls that
~ want to plan. And what we're asking for is not anything monetary. It's
not going to cost you any money. We're asking for gym space when the gyms
are not being used for anything else. These young women need a place to
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
Februaty 23, 1993 - Page 6
practice, and unfortunately like softball or other sports, or basketball,
you can't play outside. Because of the wind conditions and I mean when
you set up volleyball, you cannot hit a volleyball when there's a wind
velocity of whatever. So they have to have an indoor facility in which to
play. I've never done this before so I'm a little nervous. I guess
that's all I really have to say. And again, I can't see where it would
make any difference to anyone because we're not asking for money. We're
not asking you to do anything to your b~dget. All we're asking for is gym
space when nobody else is using that facility. By the way, over the years
when we first started, we could do that. You know I would call the Park
and Rec Department or Community Services. They gave us that space but now
because, and we can understand that. Because there's a need to protect
the fine facilities that you have, they want us to do this sponsorship
program but we have used your gyms before and we've had no problems. And
the girls are all responsible. Our coaches are all adults. I mean I
don't see that there should be, I mean personally, any reason why these
young women aren't given this opportunity. There's traveling basketball.
There is AAU swimming. There is AAU tennis. There's all kinds of things
and unfortunately, like I said, volleyball is the sport that you need a
gym facility to practice in. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to
answer them.
Schroers: I do have a question. What gym specifically are you talking
about? The one in the grade school here?
Gail Murphy: We don't care. We'll take anything. We've practiced
everywhere. We've practiced at Chan Elementary. Chaska Elementary.
Jonathan. The High School. Once or twice when the High School was
available. The Middle School, we've practiced a lot at the Middle School.
This is over the years before the sponsorship program was activated, which
they were talking about last year and so we got a little taste of it last
year but now this year when I called Linda at the community services, she
said that there's no way that she could even talk to us until we had this
sponsorship by the Park and Rec Department. So we don't care. You know
all the kids, there are I think out of the, we deal with about 40 girls a
year. So so far in the 9 years, 90 girls have started at 14 and then gone
through 18's and then are out the door. And that was another thing that I
wanted to tell you too. Is you want to talk about community services and
community participation. Now that first group of girls that have left our
group as 18's, they're coming back in the summertime. I've got all these
thoughts now. They're coming back to help coach these other young girls.
I mean what a good role model. You know these young ladies, these young
girls are looking up to young women who have gone through this program.
Are, some participate in college. Others have not. it doesn't matter.
But they're coming back to help these young kids because they know what a
great time they had and the comradery that they got from one another. I
was going to say something else but I forgot. oh well.
Schroers: Maybe it will come back to you. I guess I have a couple of
comments. Number one, this body here, this Board does not have control
over the school gyms. They belong to the school. We do have a cooperating
program with them to be able to schedule in some time for city
recreational programs that are organized through the city and Jerry here
is probably more familiar with the scheduling. You know we think that it
--'
...",
-*'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 23, 1993 - Page 7
would be wonderful to be able to provide facilities for everyone who needs
them but I think it just comes down to scheduling and whether or not
something could be arranged with the school. And I think that what we
could do would be to ask Jerry if he would be kind enough to check into
the schedule at the gym and find out if there is an opening and a way that
the program could be scheduled in and worked out. But this body has no
authority to decide what really is to be done with the gymnasiums in the
school.
Gail Murphy: Okay. I appreciate that and thank you very much and I would
be glad to work with you in every way I can. That's kind of my job. I'm
not a great volleyball player, but I can call to get gyms. But anyway,
see that's, I guess that's what our big question mark was. They won't
even speak to us unless we have the sponsorship by you and I think maybe
it's just the nod from you saying okay. These people are, they're not
going to hurt the facility. You know we're not going to take time away
from anybody else. I think that's what they're asking for. I don't know.
You know we did receive, if you need that, we did receive just a moment.
This is what I received from the Community Education office as far as the
application procedures and the rule of useage for the gym facilities and
on here it says that we need your sponsorship. So should I give this too?
Lash: Do all of our other activities that require useage of the school
facilities have...sponsorship from someone? Be it CAA or who's sponsoring
~ all these people so they can book a gym?
Hoffman: The programs as the School District lays it out are the School
District sponsored programs and then they come down to the Park and
Recreation sponsored programs. So any activities which the department is
operating, we can go ahead and attempt to reserve time. It's always a
battle to attempt to find those times. To do that scheduling and then I'm
going to let Jerry respond to the issue of building monitors. Anytime we
schedule a time, we need to get a building monitor so I'll let Jerry
explain that.
Gail Murphy: Right. That's what Linda said to me. She said that now with
this new sponsorship, what needs to be done is that we adults, or parents,
while the children are practicing with their coach, that there has to be a
parent in the facility that would monitor the building. The children so
that they don't move in any area other than the gym, and we have no
problem with that. Like I say, we'll do anything. You know these kids
just need some place to go.
Ruegemer: And that's a program too that was started. We just finalized
that program in probably early January and with the Park and Recs, now
with Chaska Park and Rec and Chanhassen Park and Recreation, a letter of
understanding was agreed upon by the School Board. What that letter of
understanding pertains to is any programs that we may sponsor and we need
to provide a building monitor for that. And we did go through a training
process with that 10 or 12 people from the Athletic Association and a
couple people from our department did go through that training process and
~ whenever there is a scheduled activities that we do sponsor, we make sure
that there is a building monitor in place at that time and that's where
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 8
..."",
I'm sure Linda can work something out with your group as far as getting
people trained in.
Gail Murphy: Right. Right. Like I said, we don't want to cause anybody
any more work. We'll take whatever work needs to be done to get that
space. So thank you. This is my husband.
Lash: Wouldn't this program fall under CAA? Girls Softball goes...
Gail Murphy: Where I think you're going to have your problem is when it
comes to coaching. The smaller children, the little ones, it isn't so bad
but as they grow, their skills become such that myself, I coach,at
St. Hubert's. I coach the 4th, 5th and 6th graders. And I do a fine job
with that but there is no way that I could coach an A team with a 30 inch
vertical jump that's got a swing that...I mean there's no way I could do
that. And see I think that's why this hasn't gone into a CAA kind of a
situation is because the skill techniques become, and I think that's why
with, they don't have CAA for the basketball either. Because then your
coaching comes into play and then where are you going to get all your
coaches.
Lash: Where do you get your coaches now?
Gail Murphy: Right now we have my husband coaches the 14's and he's
strictly volunteer. And then we have, as far as 16's we have a coach that
teaches school in St. Paul that was a head coach at Highland High School.
He coaches the 16's. And then the 18's, which the level is very
competitive. Very competitive. We have a young man that's just a real
find for us we feel. He played Division I in college. He was assistant
coach at Indiana State and he plays himself on a men's team and is
thinking about playing in Europe and believe it or not, most of the junior
programs in the State have coaches of this caliber. I mean it's just
incredible how this has taken off. So not to say that if it went to CAA
it would be an inferior program. Please don't misunderstand me but that's
going to be a problem down the line.
-'"
Manders: I guess I don't understand. Why couldn't they be under the
auspices of CAA with the same coaches?
Gail Murphy: That would be g~eat. No, there's no problem. There's no
problem with that.
Manders: Have you petitioned to CAA to be a member of their group?
Gail Murphy: No.
Manders: That would be a sponsorship too, is that right Todd?
Gail Murphy: No, because we just started where they told us to start
which is with you guys.
Roeser: Well maybe you should get together with the Chan Athletic -'"
Association sometime. That program, my granddaughter's involved in is
tremendous. I've never seen such dedicated people is what they have for
~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 9
coaches and the people that work with them are tremendous.
Lash: And that would be the same route, because they come through Jerry
and they...scheduling so it would be the same.
Gail Murphy: That would be fine. Yeah.
Mr. Murphy: The two coaches that you mentioned, because they're very well
qualified, we pay and that's kind of the difference. You're talking about
volunteers maybe that aren't really qualified...like a CAP program and
that's where you go and take training for 3 days or something like this a
and that's very intense and they've probably been through CAP Level I, II
and III. So like the oldest one that we have for the 18's is actually
qualified to coach in college, and does. Or has. So you're talking about
the coaches being very well qualified and the kids are very good. Just
excellent. The other thing regarding the gym space is that, what our
needs are really now in the spring and the gyms really aren't that busy.
So we normally aren't in conflict with anyone. It's just a case that we
can't get in now and we have in the past and now we can't. And we need
this sponsorship in order to get in but we really aren't pushing anybody
out because nobody else is really using them.
Gail Murphy: That was the thing I forgot. This program runs from January
~ to June. The last week in June. So it's a short time, and because of
basketball, because the kids are involved in basketball, we really don't
even get going full tilt until March. So it's really March, April, May
and June. I mean we're talking 4 months. We're not talking a full year
because in the fall the kids play their school sports. They play fall
volleyball at school.
Mr. Murphy: You know we would use them on Sundays or Friday nights,
that's no problem. Saturday. Sunday morning. Anytime.
Berg: How many, I have a question. Maybe I just didn't see it here. How
many kids are involved in the Chaska I JO?
Gail Murphy: Right now we carry, we have 10, approximately 10 to 12 in
each group. We have four groups, well this year we're starting 12's so we
have 10 in the 12 year olds. 14's we have the same so we're talking
between 40 and 45 kids.
Berg: Of those, approximately how many of those are from Chanhassen?
Gail Murphy: From Chanhassen alone? Or just Chanhassen and Chaska?
Berg: Chanhassen.
Mr. Murphy: They're all from, all except for 4 in the School District.
Some are from St. Hubert's but St. Hubert's has Minnetonka and Eden
Prairie kids. So excluding the St. Hubert's kids, there's 4 that are from
outside. 2 on the 16's and 2 on the 18's.
"
Gail Murphy: About half.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 10
-'
Berg: So of about 45, about 40 are fromChanhassen would you say?
Mr. Murphy: Two 16's that are from outside of the District and 2 on the
18's.
Berg: The District. I guess I'm asking specifically about Chanhassen.
Mr. Murphy: Chanhassen, oh. Probably equally divided.
Berg: About half?
Gail Murphy: Half from Chaska, half from Chanhassen, like they would be
at the high school.
Berg: Some from Eden Prairie?
Gail Murphy: Just 4 right? Just 2?
Mr. Murphy: The ones that are from Eden Prairie are ones that are at St.
Hubert's. Except for one.
Gail Murphy: So 3 of the total group that are not in the 112 School
District. Or 4.4? And out of those 4, one of them is the gal that,
their family, the~ started with us and their family moved to Mankato ~nd
now she travels from Mankato because she's gone to school with these kids -'
and they've been pals so she comes all the way down from Mankato to play
so she can still be friends with the Chanhassen kids. She lives right
here in chan so that's kind of neat.
Berg: I'm not trying to be picky here. I'm just trying to figure out,
you're coming to Chan Park and Rec. I'm trying to decide how many of
these people are actually living in Chanhassen. About half?
Gail Murphy:
Yes.
Mr. Murphy:
ourselves.
We're ptobably at the Chan Park and Rec because we live here
And they said Chaska or Chan.
Berg: You say there aren't very many games or whatever until March?
Gail Murphy: Right. Well there are. There are quite a few but most, we
have a real hard time because like I said, our philosophy with this club
is that school sports come first and so consequently a lot of the girls
play. 50 it is real interesting scrounging around for kids to play
because they're not participating until March.
Berg: So you encourage them to just play one sport?
Gail Murphy: At a time? Well yeah, I guess we do.
Mr. Murphy: No we don't. What do you mean, as far as this? No, we
encourage them to play the school sports. Whatever that is. This comes ~
secondary. And they only come to our practices or our games when there's
not a conflict with their school sport.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 11
,..
Gail Murphy: But, now this happened on Sunday. One of the gals is
playing basketball at Chaska. She's also playing volleyball. She calls
the coach, the 18's coach and she says. Listen coach, she says we had a
big game yesterday. We're playing on Tuesday. She says I don't think I
should come to practice because I'm tired. He said, fine. You stay home
and. that's what we do. I mean there's no pressure here for these kids
period. They do it because want to do it.
Mr. Murphy: Last year's State AA tournament, every team that was in it
had a Juniors team. Right or wrong, in order to be competitive, you've
got to do this or you're not going to be competitive. Since our kids, the
younger kids got older and this would have been when our daughter was a
sophomore, which is now what, 6 years ago. Chaska's either been in the
State tournament, 4 of those 6 years, and the other 2 years they were in
the regional finals so it definitely plays a big role.
Gail Murphy: And they won a State tournament.
MY. Murphy: And as Gail said earlier, that was our goal when we started
off was to make the high school team more competitive.
Gail Murphy: And it still is.
I""'"
Mr. .Murphy: But everybody's catching up. We were one of the first ones
that started and now they're all in it so, I don't know what you'll have
to do next but what we will.
Lash:
...where does it say in here that you have to be...
Mr. Murphy: No place ma'am.
Gail Murphy: It doesn't.
Lash: Then why are they telling you this?
Ruegemer: That's what Linda likes to have is, it's kind of broken down
into down the ranks. District activities are first. Community Education
second and we're third. Really, anything beyond that space is gone.
That's why in order to kind of incorporate everybody's needs is that we'd
like to have a sponsorship type of program.
Lash: Well there's one thing of what Linda likes and then there's another
thing of what the policy is...policy doesn't say that.
Ruegemer: I can look at the documents upstairs.
Lash: So there is a policy...?
Hoffman: I called the office directly and asked for a copy of that so the
Commission could see the language which specifically stated that and there
is no language. So it's an interpretation of that policy.
r
Schroers: Okay, so I guess. I think that it behooves the Park and Rec
Commission to encourage any organized, well meaning recreational activity
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 12
...",
that we can, as long as we can provide it in a safe and organized manner.
I guess that if Jerry is willing to work with the Murphys to help you meet
the requirements that they,'re asking for there, we would give you our
blessings.
Gail Murphy: Well thank you.
Koubsky: I guess I'm wondering. Jerry, this is their first stop. They're
looking for a sponsor and because'they were told to come here, they're
here. You deal with this. You deal with scheduling. You deal with the
Athletic Associations. What would you as staff recommend? How should we
proceed and direct these folks? What's going to be the easiest thing for
them to get a sponsorship and be able to make their program work?
Ruegemet: What we need to do then is to take them under the wing then and
fill out the applications. Whenever we need to turn that in, into the
facilities'scheduler for the district and then they approve it and if they
have any conflict dates that there might be. We need to establish a
building monitor policy and training for that. And get that in place. For
right now it is going to be pretty tight until probably the end of March,
ear ly Apr il . . .
Gail Murphy: That's fine. That's fine. You know like I said.
Koubsky: Is that something we should be doing or should we have the
School District? You know is this the right stop for this group?
...,;'
Ruegemer: That's what we do with all the other groups that we have kind
of under our umbrella. With the sponsorship is we do the application
process.
Gail Murphy: Okay, so then I should come see you at the City Hall?
Wonderful.
Andrews: I'd like to say something. I'd like to see you try to
communicate with CAA. Chanhassen has no volleyball program at all.
Chaska does. I'm a volleyball fanatic and I've always wished we had
something here so maybe it's some situation where they could help you but
you could also help the City establish a program that I think many
residents would like to see started, not only for their kids but for
possible other reasons too. So that might make it easier for you.
Berg: And that's basically what I was going to say. I'd feel much more
comfortable if you go through CAA first. As long as they are the
sponsoring organization for most other athletic things in this community.
I'd feel much more comfortable if you went through there. Under their
auspices.
Gail Murphy: Okay. So I contact CAA people?
Ruegemer: You can contact me.
Mr. Murphy: I've got one more comment. I think in Chaska now, and Fred
you probably know, but traveling basketball and so on, I think the city of
....."
"'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 13
chaska sponsors most of the traveling type leagues. And maybe Chanhassen
hasn't gotten into it yet, I don't know. But that's what this is. It's
really a traveling type league and I think so far, I think probably Chaska
has done most of that. There's traveling basketball as far as boys and
girls. I think they have a wrestling program. All kinds of programs and
I just don't know if we've gotten into it yet but they certainly have at
Chaska. Any other questions?
Roeser: Have y6u approached Chaska Park and Rec on this issue?
Mr. Murphy: We have a little bit. I talked to Tom Redmond a little bit
and we're kind of talking to him at the same time and he said, well you
live in Chan. Why don't you go through Chan. We're going to give you
guys the benefit of getting into it.
Roeser: Right, Jan makes a point too. Most of the facilities are in
Chaska, right. That you'd be using.
Mr. Murphy: But we pay for them right? It seems like we should, and
we're talking about a big bond issue coming up here and not being able to
use the gyms, that's hard to take.
Schroers: Thank you.
~. Gail Murphy: Thank you very much.
NEIGHROHOOD MEETING, POWER HILL PARK.
Schroers: I assume that that's what most of the people are here for this
evening. We're happy to see such a large turnout and so much interest in
the community. Staff is going to update us on the situation and then
people who are in attendance here this evening will have an opportunity to
come up and state their feelings regarding this issue. However, as you
can see, things tend to carryon and get fairly lengthy and we have kind
of a long agenda after this this evening, so that we're going to ask, when
you come up with a concern or a comment, just give it to us once because
it's being recorded and it's on record so we won't miss it. But what we
would like not to happen is for each and every person in here to come up
and tell us the same thing. Alright Todd.
Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers, Commission members. First of all I
too would like to thank the audience for responding to the inquiry to come
to this neighborhood meeting. I would also secondly like to apologize.
We did run over our schedule. The letter did state that this would start
at 7:30. Our visitor presentations went slightly longer than anticipated.
For the benefit of all, I'm going to give a brief overview of the letter
and the information contained in that letter, which was distributed.
We'll take a look at an overhead as we go through there to orient
ourselves to the park property and some of the proposed improvements which
will be taking place there. Then we're going to go through some home
movies which have been accumulated over the past couple of weeks on a
~. couple different photo sessions. We have some slides so the commission
members and the audience can become more familiar with the park site and
where specifically items will be located. Again, this meeting does allow
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
Februa,y 23, 1993 - Page 14
residents an opportunity to gain information about the future development
of Power Hill Park. It is also a forum at which they can comment and have
their questions answered. As many of you probably know, the history of
Power Hill Park began in ~987 with the approval of a planned unit
development, Lake Susan Hills West. The applicant being Argus Development
or Joe Miller Homes. Again this parcel is somewhat disjointed. As
mentioned in the letter, it's made up pieces of property which either
because of their configuration or their use, were not able to be developed
with single family homes. The p,operty is also home to these two
retention ponds which takes storm water off of the streets in that area...
and then take out some of the solids prio, to discha,ging that wate,
downstream. We will go ahead and put the proposed park plan up and
reference that as we go through these comments. North being up on that
end. Again this meeting is being held in that the Park and Recreation
Commission saw fit to include $15,000.00 in the 1993 park acquisition and
development capital improvement program for general improvements at Power
Hill Park. Those improvements will include final g,ading of the site.
Initial grading was in the development contact with Joe Miller Homes and
was performed by Argus Development. Their grading contractor. So we need
to do the final grading, the seeding, entrance road and parking lot
construction and some minimal landscaping work this summer. In moving
forward with these improvements, it is always in the best interest of all
to solidify your plans for the future so when you're making those initial
improvements, you've made good planning judgments and the things you do in
the future are made easier because of that. You will notice the current
plan identifies a play area in this location. Here. A small play area
here. What I reference is the neck of the park or narrowest area of the
park. It also includes a small picnic grounds. Right adjacent to the
picnic area, a community sliding hill in this location, and those
residents who haven't discovered it yet, I encourage you to take advantage
of it this year while the time remains. It's quite an exciting hill. An
open play field way up in the north. This open play field area here.
Commission members received a petition in regard to that open play field
and again, this meeting is in response to that petition. Not directly but
the action which was requested as part of the petition will be taking
place this summer. And then the proposed double tennis court down again
in the south pa,t of the park. It also includes trails connections to
Flamingo Drive, adjacent to the roadway. The access, the roadway access.
Bluebill Trail, which is over in this area and is just being developed...
and then a trail connection to Mallard Court. This trail connection is in
and is a bituminous surface. In meeting with Ron Issacs of Joe Mille,
Homes, the runout of that piece of t,a!l is not sufficient. The drop off
is too great so Joe Miller Homes in the spring will be coming in and
recontouring that runout to make that a better situation in that area. So
they will add,ess that when they come in and do the trail stub at Bluebill
Trail as wel~. In addition to hearing neighborhood comments in the~e
regards, the (Commission will also discuss the validity of constructing a
tennis court in this park. Potential concerns include the secluded nature
of the proposed site. The appropriateness of placing a tennis court on a
site such as this. The distance to parking and the Commission's increase
in resistance to construct tennis courts in neighborhood parks.
Furthermore it should be noted that the number of tennis courts we have
already existing in the city, the numbers indicate obviously the number of
courts at each location and there are these two courts at South Lotus Lake
~
....,I
"""""'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
.~. February 23, 1993 - Page 15
Park will be new this summer. Those two courts will pe lighted. There
are 2 of the 4 courts at Chanhassen Elementary Park which are currently
lighted as well. Notes to the Commission in that regard include that the
current estimated cost to construct a double tennis court is just over 20,
or approximately $27,500.00. I've attached a diagram that shows the
location. This diagram, of the current tennis courts in Chanhassen.
Baseline standards for the number of tennis courts per capita range from
one survey which says 1,500 to 2,000 persons per tennis court. So our
service areas typically extend to a 1 mile radius. The source of that is
the National Recreation and Parks Association and also the National Tennis
Court and Track Builders Association. So as you can see, for the current
population of Chanhassen, our courts we currently maintain in the city
does meet that criteria. In addition to these two proposed courts, a
single court is also currently proposed to be constructed in Sunset Ridge
Park. A park to the north of this site within the same development. A
double court currently exists at Lake Susan Community Park approximately
one mile north of Power Hill Park. And then there's also a proposed
double tennis court at Chanhassen Hills Park. In regard to what this park
will look like when it's fully developed. As you can probably see for
yourself, much of it will not be groomed. Only the open play field, the
sliding hill, the area around the play equipment and the turf trail will
be maintained at a groomed grass condition. And then in that same regard,
and a remind~r as part of this letter for the abutting property owners, is
that please do not encroach on the park. The Park Commission has dealt
,-, with those and staff has dealt with problems of encroachment in the other
instances. We do have a lot of rearyards which butt up to this park so as
a reminder, that setback to any property line, rear property line is 5
feet for any accessory structure and 10 feet on your side yard lines. If
there's any questions in that regard from any property owners, I'd be glad
to meet with them. In closing, the initiation of the development of Power
Hill Park is an exciting time for the city. It's 1 of 4 parks in the Lake
Susan Hills West development. It's 1 of the 3 which will be developed in
an active sense. With that I think I'm going to byiefly run through these
slides and then we can begin to take some neighborhood comments. If you
recognize your home as we run through this, don't be afraid to yell out...
There we are. This is the neighborhood. This is Heron Drive. Mallard
Court. This is standing at the entrance to the park looking north, down
Flamingo. And the next slide will take you directly up the access road...
backwards doesn't work. We're going forward. So it gets past the parking
lot there and we look to the south and now we're standing there directly
in the forefront of the area which is on your park plan which is shown as
the graded, proposed area for the tennis court. And then you're looking
south towards Shakopee and beyond. Again a shot of the pyoposed tennis
court pad. Again. This looks back from where I took those other two
pictures_ Back towards the homes on Flamingo.
Berg: Is this from the proposed tennis court area?
Hoffman: From the corner, yep. From the corner looking back to the north
towards the homes there.
~ Berg: How far is it from where the tennis court would be from the road?
Hoffman:
...back from the parking lot about 300 feet.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 16
..."".
Berg: So there is a parking lot?
Hoffman: Correct.
Berg: Not too close to the tennis court?
Hoffman: No. It's down, through the'neck of the park, that narrow area
and then back down to the parking area.
Berg: So they wouldn't be cutting through people's yards or anything like
that?
Hoffman: No. This is standing on the top of the proposed tennis court
location. It's a panoramic view starting from, looking about directly
east and it goes all the way to looking west. The point being that the
views from this location, there we got reverse. The views from this
location are quite dramatic. It's one of the highest locations in the
city. This is looking south towards Chaska. Coming around to some of
the existing homes which were there prior to all the rest of this activity
taking place. Again a shot of the existing homes. There's a picture of
the neck. The pole in the front and then the pole back by the rocks in
the trees there. That shows how narrow that area gets in that location.
I talked to these residents today and I said, I'm not picking on you but
this is an example of encroachment...No trick photography. These are
again some views from standing on that neck. This is looking north
towards Lake Minnetonka. You can see the water towers of the lake cities
up in that area. This is looking west towards Victoria and then from here
we're going to depart and go down over the hillside and look back up at
that hill which stands directly in front of you here. There's the'hill.
Currently, I do not believe that we own enough property for a sufficient
runout. The speeds that you can get on that hill. The commission will
have to address that in the future as well. Obviously the property down
there is low lying. Undevelopable but as any development activity occurs
on that side, up towards Audubon Road, you'll be able to acquire
sufficient property to make that runout happen. A couple other views of
the hill. It is a walk back up there. I did it twice. And then this
looks back south again...existing residents that are there. This steps
you back, looking at that same house but this is the entrance off of
Bluebill. So this is the Joe Miller Homes new addition. And the second
of the two rete-ntion ponds which is in that area.
-'
Lash: Is there like a cul-de-sac or is it that the other street?
,
Hoffman: The other street. The loop street. Here's the access coming in
off of Bluebill and then the trail across the dyke which is inbetween the
two retention ponds. There's the singular tree, but it is a nice one
located within this park.
Lash: Whereabouts it is?
Hoffman: Located right between the two ponds. And this is looking north
towards that open playfield area. From about the bottom of the sliding
hill. That's reverse angle looking back from somewhere up in the vicinity ~
of the first pond. It's a picture back across showing the Bluebill Drive
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~. February 23, 1993 - Page 17
area and the trail connection coming in off of that street. And there's
the open playfield area...That's the entrance off of Mallard Court. There
is an 8 foot bituminous trail stub underneath that snow, which leads into
that open playfield area.
lash: Are there homes on both the right and left of that?
Hoffman: Correct. They're there in this picture.
lash: Oh.
Hoffman: That's their yard inbetween and then the trail easement lies,
you can baYely pick out the stakes there on the right hand side of it.
That's another view of that open playfield area. This was taken from
Bluebill Drive again. We had some conversations before the presentation
that that area will be maintained. It is lowlying. It is the feeder off
of all these yards for those retention ponds. So in wet seasons, wet
years such as this past year, maintenance to that open playfield will pose
some difficulties and obviously we're dealing in this situation so I
certainly cannot predict how severe those potential problems may be.
There's the tennis court which is located ~ the community park. lake
Susan Community Park. This is a shot of Sunset Ridge. This is the
existing play structure. The commission had delegated monies for an
addition to this play structure, second phase for 1993. This photo also
"",..... shows the proposed location for an additional tennis court just beyond
this play equipment in that location. That's proposed as a single,
correct. Last photo simply points out the value of retaining those open
spaces within these developments. This is across the road. As I drove
over there I found this young man taking advantage of a retention pond and
doing a little recreating. With that larry, after sitting an hour, I
think those that would wish to address the Commission would be anxious to
do so.
Schroers: Very good. Anyone that would like to share some information
with us. Please come up to the podium and state your name and address for
us please.
,....
Steve Buehn: My name is Steve Buehn, 8740 Flamingo Drive. Just right on
top of this stuff. I don't got a whole lot of direct comments. More
planning for the future. I see this neighborhood basically as being
probably within 10 years being cut off from a lot of the rest of the city
by major highways and things of that nature. Probably Powers Boulevard
turning into a four lane and for kids I think 4 lane pretty much, it's
difficult to go across and parents probably tend to discourage their kids
from going across major roads. And then when 212 goes in, I think Powers
Boulevard will be one of the main accesses back up to Highway 5 and the
business area. For semi's, things like that so I think considering what's
going to go in across Powers Blvd. really shouldn't be considered because
it probably won't get a lot of use, at least from the kids because they,
unless there's some sort of tunnel system or whatever. I mean I'm talking
way in the future. But just from experience of growing up in city
suburban areas, four lanes tended to cut off where you went to. I don't
know what else here. I really don't know all the direct plans but just as
far as year round activities, I'd like to see a skating rink or something
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 18
.....".
put in at one of these parks. That would help for keeping kids busy. And
that's about it. Thanks.
Sue Schultz: Sue Schultz, 1430 Mallard Court. I see a lot of kids in
this neighborhood and it keeps getting more and more and I think more
spending $27,000.00 on basketball courts, or tennis courts, maybe we
should have some basketball courts for the kids. There's a lot of boys
and girls that I think would enjoy that.
Schroers: Can we comment on that? A lot of times we will incorporate a
basketball hoop on the end of the tennis court so it can be kind of a,
more of a multi-use facility. Obviously you can't do it at the same time.
Sue Schultz: No, but would it be two of them so ybU could have a game or
would it be Just one where you'd be one on one type of thing?
Schroers: I think that we could do it either way. I don't know if the
dimensions allow but I think that it could be designed either way. Then
we get more bang for our buck that way but it also helps saves some of the
open space because you don't have to develop quite as much so that would
be a possibility if the residents would think that were acceptable.
Chris Hones: Chris Hones. I live in this same development. I've got a
couple of questions I guess I don't understand. I'm seeing the original
plans and the original plans I think look great. But now all of a sudden
I'm seeing a reluctance to follow through with those plans and specific to ..".,
the tennis court, tennis/basketball court. There's a relunctance to build
it in a "neighborhood park". And if I could address this to Todd. Why
was this originally planned and all of a sudden it's against policy 6r is
there some policy in the making?
Hoffman: The original proposed master plans were developed underneath a
different department director so in taking that leadership role, it is my
responsibility to recognize and to plan for appropriate facilities
throughout our community. If the community is being served in such a way
that the needs for tennis courts are being met, and those dollars which
are very, amount to quite a bit of a percentage of the annual budget
because of the expense of tennis courts, if those dollars can be used
better elsewhere, then the commission needs to know that knowledge.
They're certainly aware that these master plans have shown the intent to
have a tennis court there and they're going to wrestle with that issue.
But it is their responsibility to provide some equity throughout the
community and that's one of the issues which we're.
Chris Hones: Okay, so I'm hearing you say that the previous recreation
director planned on that and then when you came in your considerations are
different?
Hoffman: Correct.
Chris Hones: Okay. Well I guess I have a problem with looking at it as a
neighborhood paYk because I'm guessing that probably new residents'to this
community probably are able to get maps of the different parks. The ~
facilities of the different parks and I know that people are going to use
~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 19
facilities around a community. More likely they're going to use the parks
nearest them but if you're telling me that somebody's going to be building
some facility up at Lotus Lake, I~m going to go up there and I'm going to
see that facility and at times I would be using that. So I guess I have a
real problem the viewpoint that we're going to build something that's only
going to be used by so many households. I think this is a community
project and I like what I've seen. Another question brought up was the
distance to parking, and appa,ently the tennis courts are 100 ya,ds away
from the parking. I don't know that if some people are going to be
playing tennis that 100 ya,ds walk is going to keep them f,om such a
facility. The other point that this is a secluded a,ea. I guess that's
something else I have problems with because if it's a secluded area, it's
going to be secluded no matter what you put there. I guess the reason
why I'm up .here was concern over this park that originally we intended to
put in there and now we're looking at changing this. We're looking at
changLng this possibly because of dollars. However, I think everybody in
here knows that $15,000.00 isn't going to go a long ways and the plans for
this are very long te,m and not short term. I think that an idea of
putting in things like tennis courts and basketball courts is probably a
super idea because people are more concerned about their health than they
used to be. People are more active. I see the residents up there tend to
be more active than the community I had moved f,om. I see people jogging
all the time, even in this dang weather we've got. There a,e more kids
~. around that neighbo,hood than, boy I tell you. You swing a stick and
you'd hit a whole bunch of them at once. But the,e's a lot of people up
there. A lot of active people up the,e and as a resident in that a,ea,
I'd like to see tennis courts, basketball courts. And I'm not looking fo,
them to go in this summer. But I am looking fo, them to go in at some
point because of the level of activity that I see in that area. And
because I think that it's a healthy thing to do for the Chanhassen
citizens. Thank you.
Jody Flolet: My name is Jody Flolet. I live at 1541 Heron Drive and my
comment on the tennis cou,ts is, I think to put tennis cou,ts at Power
Hill and at Sunset Ridge is kind of ridiculous because people have easy
access and there's that ,oad going in at Sunset Ridge. My unde,standing
is that on the othe, side of that new ,oad there's going to be townhouses
0, maybe office buildings?
Hoffman: Commercial.
""
Jody Flolet: So to me that pa,k would be a bette, location fo, tennis
cou,ts just because maybe more people would use them and I don't quite
unde,stand the philosophy of putting a single tennis cou,t. Which means
if you get all you, stuff and you go down the,e and two othe, people have
the same idea, you can't play tennis. It would make more sense to me to
g,oup them. But my question was, on the turf walk. I was wonde,ing why
there was planned a turf walk instead of a paved t,ail. If it had to do
with the ponds. To me a tu,f walk, which I assume means it's just g,ass.
You can't ,ide a bike. You can't push a st,olle,. You can't walk if it's
,ained any time in the last week, and I would like to see that all paved
because we only have sidewalks on eve,y othe, side of the street. So I
like the paths that we have th,oughout the city and I think it'd be nice
to see them th,ough the,e because that'd be a really nice place to walk
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 20
....,;
because it is a long narrow park. And you could go from the play area and
just you know walk along without being in the street.
Lash: . ..made that decision and I think at that time, now I don't know if
this is what happened or not but at that time we were told that sidewalks
would be going in on Flamingo Drive on this side of the street.
Jody Flolet: Right.
Lash: And I think in our minds we thought, well we'd have sidewalks for
people who needed to use it to bike or to use strollers in front of homes
and so it was kind of financially we thought it was a little overkill to
have a paved path behind the homes too. If people wanted to just walk,
they could walk on the turf trail. If they needed to use, have a hard
surface, they could use the sidewalk and cover the same distance.
Jody Flolet: Yeah but, I mean it's a lot more fun to walk through the
park. Right now you're saying nobody can really walk through the park
unless it's really nice and they don't have the kid in a stroller or
anybody on a bike. Basic~lly it's a place to walk dogs.
Lash:
...why we made that decision.
Jody Flolet: Because to me a long narrow park is really a nice place to
take a walk. That's basically all the great big long area is. Anyway,
so I'd just like to see that paved. I think that would make it a lot
nicer and there's a lot of people with stroller and it's also safer for
kids to be biking on a trail than to be biking past a whole bunch of
driveways. Where people are going in and out. And I think the areas into
the trail are all paved and so you can get pretty much anywhere you could
use sidewalk and then get down into that park and then you hit that grass.
So that was my comment. Thank you.
....",
Resident: ...there's a lot of people in the neighborhood that also do
skating and it'd be awfully nice to have skating because even when you're
skating down the road it's a little dangerous.
Lash: Oh, you're talking rollerskating?
Resident: Rollerblades...
Susan Hermes: Susan Hermes, 8542 Flamingo. I have a question about the
park plan in that on this proposed plan there looked to be a backstop in
the play area and I would like to see that backstop included in there. Not
necessarily a diamond per se but a backstop so it can be used to play
?oftball if you wanted to. It's a small area but it would be adequate for
our Little Leaguers that are practicing in my family. The other thing I'd
like to see, we did send a petition in and we wanted it to again reiterate
that we'd like to get the seeding done as soon as possible so it can be
used ih the summer. So if it could be seeded early on, and we could give
it the 2 months or whatever for it to take it's stand and then we could
use it. I have a question about whether this sliding hill is going to
have any grading on it. Because it does seem to have kind of a flat area
and then it comes down. Do you know?
......"
,....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 21
Hoffman: Yes. The sliding hill would be finished graded.
Susan Hermes: Built up a little bit more at the top? Evened out.
Hoffman: Not as far as rough grading, no. Finished graded and seeded.
Susan Hermes: Okay. I also had a question about when the playground
equipment or the play area will be developed. Are we looking at '94?
Hoffman: 5 year capital improvement program recollection, I can get that
information for you.
Susan Hermes: And then when it is proposed, will it be similar to what is
at Sunset Ridge Park? That amount of playground equipment or will it be
done in phases?
Lash: It will be done in phases probably...We usually leave a year apart.
Susan Hermes: So we would be looking at a two phase area?
Lash: Usually further apart than a year...but you know, that's one of the
things that we'd really like to get input from the residents on the play
equipment. That has a lot to do with the age of the kids.
r"
Susan Hermes: Well we had a block party last year and we had over 90
people sign up for the block party and our children are probably, as of
back in September, the oldest and my oldest is 11 and it goes down. Since
then on up the hill we've gotten more kids because I see a Middle School
bus come through now. So we've gotten some older kids too but the bulk of
the kids are still pretty young. So I think, the playground equpiment
would definitely be used from what I can see from our block party. Did
you find that?
Hoffman: Jerry will be bringing it.
Susan Hermes: Okay. I again reiterate, or endorse the basketball/tennis
court combination because I think our kids should have the option of
playing tennis as well as basketball so that we are having the option of
doing both. And the paved walk, I'd love to have a paved walk also
because my kids have Rollerbladesand it is much safer than sidewalks.
That's it.
Bob Engebretson: My name is Bob Engebretson. I live at 8720 Flamingo
Drive, which is the swingset you saw. It will get moved. So I guess I
have a couple concerns. One of which is in regards to the tennis courts.
We've all heard that it's a fairly secluded area and it's got a great view
of the surrounding country. I think a tennis court would detract from the
area. The views that people have. Secondly, I also think because it's a
secluded area, that we could also be get in an area where we might be
bring in some rift raft. Kids late at night or whomever because-the only
~ ones that are going to be able to see them are folks like myself and a few
other neighbors who will be backing up. That tennis court would be right
in my back yard just about. About 200-300 feet directly behind me. So
I guess I would rather see them on that upper part of the hill. Is to
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 22
....",
maybe just seed it for now because we all know the dollars aren't there
anyways to build it. Maybe talk to the DNR. Have them plant some trees
up there. Another problem with the tennis court, if you've ever been up
there in the summertime, it's called windy hill and it's for a reason. I
think if you're going to put tennis courts up there, you're going to have
to have wind screens for sure. We get 50 mph winds up there all the time
during a clear sunny day. Also, I don't really understand why we're even
putting in a parking lot. Because the majority of the people who use that
park area are in walking distance. Walk down the sidewalks or whatever
and I think you'll find, I think maybe one of the reasons was because of
the sliding hill. That a parking lot would be nice for people to drive up
to it. The area in general is hilly and there are a lot of hills around
the city and that hill is very long and there aren't going to be too many
folks after using it a few times that will probably go back just for the
fact that it's very long. Long walk back up. I'm sure some of you '
realized that when you went out and visited it. And I have a little
experience in that because I've been out there about a dozen times. So I
don't really understand why we even need the parking lot in there. I
could understand having a paved path into the park and I'd really like to
see them put in a jogging or walking path to keep the kids off the
sidewalk and off the streets with their bikes and Rollerblades and that
sort of thing. In addition to that, I think a better suggestion was what
I had heard while I was in the middle of purchasing my home by one of
these fellows was, maybe put a picnic area up there instead of a tennis
court. Partly because of the view and the cost obviously would be a lot
less. Other than that, my only other comment was, I agreed with the woman .....",
who spoke here. That the neighborhood is very young. I have two children
under 4 and several of my neighbors have kids under the age of 4 also.
And I think the highest priority item going into that park should be a
jungle gym or whatever you want to call it. I would recommend that first
and foremost. Other than that, I guess I really don't have anything else.
In addition I guess, that section of park also we have a lot of wildlife
up there. There's a pretty heavy pheasant population up there and you
start putting tennis courts in and getting a lot of activity, obviously
we'd be taking away from some of their cover. So that was about it. Thank
you.
Hoffman: Larry, I can respond in regard to Susan Hermes question, and for
the benefit of all. The 5 year capital improvement program, which is a
tool the Commission uses to develop the annual capital improvement
program, currently identifies in 1994, $2,500.00 for additional trees in
the park. In 1995, $18,000.00 for a first phase play area and then we're
out to 1996 where nothing has been allocated.
Susan Hermes: Is that $18,000.00 similar to what's over at Sunset Ridge?
Hoffman: That would be more than that is there now.
Susan Hermes: Okay. So it would...bigger than that.
Hoffman: That's where it's currently slated in the 5 year CIP. Correct.
Jim Koslowski: My name is Jim Kowlowski and I live right up next to the
rest of the guys up there, right bordering up to where you're going to put
.....",
~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 23
the proposed tennis courts and I just wanted to share some comments. That
I think to put a tennis court in that area is a bad idea because of the
fact of the wildlife that's up there and the views that we all enjoy. Also
to echo Bob's thoughts of bringing some rift raft in there and at night at
the tennis courts. And also if we do, and I somewhat disagree with putting
a picnic area up there as well because that is even in my thoughts going
to entertain the thought of bringing more so than a tennis court. As far
as bringing nightlife and people. It gives them a better hideout for
getting up there later at night. As far as young children in the area, I
am with the rest of the people. I have a young daughter too and my
thoughts are to build an extensive playground up in that area and a
jogging track would also be a good idea. I'm for that so.
schroers: Is there anyone else?
Jerry Anderson: I'm Jerry Anderson. I'm from 8584 Flamingo. I had a
couple of questions. They're talking about maintenance. When playfields
are maintained. Does that mean they mow it once a month? Once every two
weeks?
Hoffman: The open playfield?
Jerry Anderson: Yes.
"'"
Hoffman: Would be maintained, mowed most times on a weekly basis but
depending on weather conditions. Dry or wet conditions.
Jerry Anderson: Okay. And as things get developed, are these going to be
lighted areas?
Hoffman: No. This playfield will not be lighted at any time.
Jerry Anderson: Like the tot lot and that area down at the other end?
Hoffman: Not currently planned for but there have been cases where a
parking lot area or a play structure area. Well, there's only one that I
can cite is Minnewashta neighborhood park where they did bring in a street
light.
Jerry Anderson: The other thing that in addressing the boys back there,
back by the nice scenic area. I also agree that it's good to have a
scenic area and since we are a fairly young neighborhood, to have totlots
first but our kids will grow up and it will be nice to have, even though
it's going to take your guy's view back there, it'd be nice to have a
basketball court or tennis courts as the kids do get older. I think that
lighting has something to do with what happens when you get something
developed as well, so.
Schroers: Are you in favor of lighting?
~ Jerry Anderson: Yeah. Well, you know when he's talking back there about
the rift raft problem with people coming in, it's a little tougher to sit
by the light and drink beer when you're 15 than in a nice dark spot where
you can park and it's dark. Not from personal experience at all but.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 24
-'
Schroers: We understand.
Jerry Anderson: But anways, that's about all I have. Thanks.
Bob Engebretson: I'd like to make just one more point about the tennis
courts. We all seem to be talking about tennis and basketball. I think
they ought to look at, and I think someone had mentioned that, maybe
instead of a tennis and basketball court, put maybe a soccer field and
maybe a diamond if it does come to that because I think you'll find there
will be more people using an open soccer field you know for the CAA
programs and that sort of thing versus a tennis court. I think a tennis
court we're spending money on a select few people versus maybe a larger
population for soccer or softball/baseball, whatever.
Lash: So you wouldn't mind having organized sports there?
Bob Engebretson: I'd prefer not having any of them but I may not have a
choice on that. But I would rather see them play to more of the public
than just a select few.
Resident: I think the problem with having organized sports up there is
they're going to end up with cars parked allover the place because we
have gone to, back here in the older developments for T-ball and if I was
one of those people with all the parking that goes along there, I think
they're going to end up hating that worse than an idea of a tennis court
or bas ketba 11 court up t her e . ...."
Berg: We're smiling because that's just the issue we've been batting
around the last couple of meetings and we're trying desparately to
maintain the integrity of the neighborhood park and keep ballfields to the
neighborhood and not turn them into a community.
Resident: Yeah. It's nice having people park in their driveways and in
their garages. We come from a city where everybody parks in the street and
it's quite annoying.
Berg: I couldn't agree more.
Resident: Yeah, one more quick comment and actually I think we're
wrestling with a problem we're pretty fortunate to have. We've got a
beautiful area and we've got a lot of options of things we can put in. .1
teach at a middle school level and the only idea I've heard that I think
is a real bad idea, if you think that's a secluded area up there, I would
not plant trees up there. Because if you plant trees up there, you want
to find a secluded area where you're going to have the wrong element in,
you will have the wrong element in if you make that area more secluded.
More obscure. So like I say, I've heard a lot of good ideas. The one
idea I would be really concerned about would be the planting of a'lot of
trees up there.
Mike Lehman: My name is Mike Lehman. I live at 8726 Flamingo Drive and
I back up ri~ht to the proposed tennis courts. My feeling is, and I'm
starting to teach my kid about wildlife right now and that was one of the
reasons why I moved to that lot and why I paid what I paid for that lot.
......,/
"'"
Par~ and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 25
When I moved in they said something about a picnic area being there which
is you know, I didn't have no problem with that. But when I heard tennis
courts and basketball courts I thought, nah. I can't deal with that at
all because you're looking at it most of the winter and it's just not a
good idea.
Resident: I hate to add to the controversy but we also paid extra in our
lots when we butted up to the park with this plan in mind when they sold
us the house. We looked at the plan and there was those things planned
and so we paid the extra money for Our lots because we thought we were
paying for the park that we was proposed. And I understand the needs and
not want to look at tennis courts or basketball courts but they bought the
lots that butt up to that area of the park and just because you buy the
lot that butts up to it, does not exclude everyone within Flamingo Drive
who paid extra for this proposed park.
Resident: I have a question. Just a quick question. How long has this
been proposed this way? Since '87?
Hoffman: 1990, correct.
Tim McGee: Tim McGee, 1411 Mallard Cour-t. I'd also be one who would
endorse the tennis courts. I find it a little odd to hear people talk
,..... about the wildl i fe that's there. When I moved in we wer-e the first home
in the 4th Addition and we saw nothing but wildlife and then we saw
Flamingo Drive go in and all the homes. So that took away that wildlife
and suddenly they're concerned about the wildlife that's still existing.
I would agree with...on the hill a little ways and around the corner and
that would be a real good thing for kids that are growing up. If we're
talking at least 2 years away before we start to do, put any of this in.
At least 2 years. Then the kids are young now but they're going to start
to grow up pretty fast. We're looking at 4 year olds being 8 year olds
probably before we even start to put in tennis courts or basketball courts
and by that time obviously they'll be able to use those courts. So I
think it'd be really important to put those in.
Schroers: Thank you. I think we pretty much got the gist here and it's
not unusual. I mean it's very common that there are always going to be
some differing opinions. The Park and Rec Commission has been evolving
with the community and as the community grows we have to grow and change
along with it. Things that we have done in the past, we are finding that
it is not very practical to do or to continue to do. It has pretty much
been our trend lately to try to keep the major expenditures and bigger
items such as tennis courts in what we call the community parks where we
can provide ample parking and ample space and all that sort of thing. And
keeping the neighborhood parks smaller, lower keyed and more for the
neighborhood. Not attracting a lot of outside people into them with a
large amenity so that's the direction that We ha0e been going lately.
And the whole thing has a lot to do with dollars. It's a give and take
situation. If you want to not spend the $27,000.00 on tennis courts you
~ can, that money that would have been spent on tennis courts is available
for something else. So there are trade-offs. It's very important that you
come in here and give us your information and hopefully we will attempt to
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 26
....."
do as well with the information that you brought as we can.
comments.
Commissioners
Lash: I have several comments on this. And I have a couple questions for
Todd, just to refresh my memory. The size of the parking lot, does that
take 12 cars?
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: Okay, and I think originally, I know one of the residents brought
up the question about the parking lot. I think originally we had it that
large because of the sliding hill and because of the tennis courts. Most
neighborhood .parks don't have that large of a parking lot. So we could,
if we were trying to come up with some different ideas for this park, I
feel like that could get cut back a little bit in size and that would save
some of the green space then and it would give a little money. Then
another thing that I was, I just kind of think that...I thought it would
make for kind of a neat layout if we were to take the tennis court out and
the play area now. ..right over by the parking lot~ If that was just a
picnic area and maybe we could put a basektball court in there. Then over
where the tennis court was, up on the top of that hill, we could probably
incorporate a really neat play area that would use the hill. You know get
a slide built in or there could be some neat climbing things. It could
really be a neat set.up for a play area. That would maybe be a little bit
more geared for older children. Not old but a little bit older and then
maybe down at the end where we have the playfield, at some point in time
maybe put some more like smaller totlot type play areas there. So one
area of the park could be maybe for older children and the other end would
be for younger children. And it would fill the need of all the kids and
we'd have basketball there too. And also have a playfield so I think it
would fill a lot of needs. If we could put basketball in there, I think
that would be nice to have a nice picnic area. I was wondering what we
figured the service, how many pepple does this area service?
--'
Hoffman: For the entire park?
Lash: Yeah.
Hoffman: Well it's a neighborhood park so your standard'service area is
1/2 mile so you're reaching, obviously Powers Boulevard is a barrier but
you're reaching essentially the entire neighborhood. However, the closer
you get to Sunset, obviously the people are going to filter into that
park.
Lash: And I think the tennis court is going to keep hounding us until we
come up with maybe a service area like we've done for neighborhood parks
too and maybe we can put that on one of future agendas. What we think is
a reasonable service area for a tennis court to cover. And then that will
give us a lot better feel when we're looking at neighborhood parks. If we
think we need to put one in that one because there isn't one for 3 miles
or whatever we set up, that would help guide us...in the future.
Hoffman: One comment in regard to the size of the parking lot. It was
referenced earlier that on street parking is not desireable either and
......"
.~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 27
,.....
If1""'"
that was part of the conversation when the size of the parking lot was
established in that it was the belief that the sliding hill was going to
become fairly popular. When you get a weekend afternoon when you receive
a lot of cars driving up to this area, and in the winter people will drive
even though it's a short distance, to go to a sliding hill. Once the
parking lot fills up, you're going to see on street parking occurring in
that area and 12 was reached as a compromise situation. You can't
obviously accommodate your worst case scenario but 12 was a compromise.
Lash: I don't have a problem with it...
Koubsky: I guess my comments. I live on 1311 Lake Susan Hills Drive and
I've got panoramic views of where all you guys live. It was all a
beanfield at one time. Cedar trees that I took my kids up to and wildlife
does get pinched out. I had pheasants allover my place and they're all
gone. I had field mice. They're all gone. The cat got all those. One
of the things we've tried to do is before, this was kind of designed
before anybody moved into this area. Before we knew what type of an age
bracket would move in so we took a stab at this park and we put in
amenities that you can find in all the other park designs in the package.
One thing we didn't really realize because in 1990 it wasn't very
accessible to get up there, is the view. And that's one reason we
rethought the tennis courts. With tennis courts you get 8 or 10 foot
chainlink fence. That's a given. You have to have a chainlink fence.
Once we kind of saw the view that were up there, we kind of thought to
ourselves, well do we want to put an 8 foot chainlink fence around the
peak of this area and that's one reason we sometimes second guess things
is once they get put in, maybe the original plans weren't on target so we
have meetings like this and it looks like it's about 50/50 which tennis
courts run about 50/50. Half the people like them. Half the people
don't. As far as the soccer field and stuff, there really I don't think
is any room up here to put that in or a baseball diamond. Those are nice
things to have. We've got them over at Sunset Ridge where it's a little
flatter. They're in the area but we're kind of limited in this park to
have smaller amenities. Same thing with a skating rink. You know
hopefully that will go in at Sunset Ridge. That has problems t60. With
skating rinks you have lights. Lights are nice but then people look at
them at night and then you get a whole other series of complaints, which
we'll discuss at that time. So I guess I see this as, or my thought of
this meeting here is we're kind of opening it up. We've raised the issue.
We're either going to go with status quo or we're going to change things,
and I'm not sure where we're going to lead to from here. I'm wide open.
Tennis courts are 50/50. It is a nice view. I guess I would like to see
something up there. But again I don't, well I live in the area but I
won't be coming up here too much. But something should be up there for
people to gather and sit around. I guess meet and look at the view. As
far as the parking goes, I know guys in Prior Lake who drive to Starring,
Park because of their sliding hill and it isn't half of this sliding hill.
I think as the community develops and all these kids get a little bit
older, you are going to have kids up there sliding. And the parents will
sit in the car or drop them off for an hour and come back and get them
because they're not going to want to climb up there. I think the parking
is needed because again, this was going to be kind of a community sliding
area. That was the idea. We saw it as a big hill and thought, well let's
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 28
...""
slide on it. Let's call it Power Hill. That was the main thought on
there. So I guess I'm open. I'm not sure where to take it. It is a nice
area. It's real different in that it's got some water and it's a bunch of
hills and you've got a nice view and there's a play area. I don't know
what this wet area would do down to the north. Again, I haven't
engineered it. We don't know what those storm ponds are going to do for
play areas. That mayor may not be suitable. Maybe time will come on
that. So it seems to me that the question is, what do we do? Well one,
we have to grade it and seed it. And Sunset Ridge, it isn't a couple
months before that grass takes place. You know you look at it in a
distance and it all looks nice and green and think you can go out there
and play. But it's pretty muddy. It's going to be pretty muddy this
year. I think it takes a number of years before that grass takes hold and
you actually have grass. Right now Sunset Ridge, if you guys looked at it
when you were looking for your houses, it looked green but it's 60%.
That's one of the reason some of these go in. We like a play structure
right away but one, the money is needed. And then two, you increase the
traffic so right now we have 60% dirt. The seeded area going toward the
totlot, we have almost no percent, or 100% dirt. It just gets beat out so
you've got to give these things a little bit of time. We can't afford sod
so you have to give the grass a little time to go. So I guess this year
you know we're looking at trying to get this thing covered, seeded, and
then probably the totlot's going to be next. I don't know if this tennis
court can wait in the wings until that time or if we have to reach a
decision now. If your neighborhood's like my neighborhood, you're going
to have for sale signs coming up in about 2 years because you're all going
to get promoted and buy bigger houses. And that's the nature of how these
deve16pments grow. We already are seeing a turnover in the neighborhood
behind McDonald's there and they're saying we don't want, we want totlots
now. Two years ago that wasn't an issue. So there is turnover. I guess
that's what I have to say. I don't know how much of this we have to
decide on tonight. It looks like it wouldn't be an easy decision to
redesign this park tonight. The petition here is more let's get this
place seeded. Let's get on with it. Let's mow down the noxious weeds.
And just decide to design this as we go. You know an evolvement like this
is good.
...,,;
Schroers: For the sake of making progress, does staff see any reason why
the initial seeding can't take place at this coming spring?
Hoffman: No. Those work items will take place regardless of the outcome
this evening. Obviously when you have a piece of paper such as this,
residents did reference it, it is a document and it will remain to
represent something into the future. If it is the intent of the
Commission to show intent to change that, then"that needs to be
communicated and that needs to be communicated on this document. Otherwise
we will continue on in the fashion of not knowing. Again, the tennis
court seems to be the biggest issue. Commission member Lash's comments
about reorienting can certainly be looked at. If the Commission chooses
to set this aside for an additional agenda item on a future meeting, we
can take that into consideration. But again as the figures told you,
currently we are programmed for a population of anywhere from 24,000 to ~
36,000 people. With the tennis courts, now you need to keep in mind
separation and service areas but we are significantly over programmed with
~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 29
tennis courts at the present time. Obviously all the discussion about
future needs are certainly relevant. You may choose to go the route as
you did at Pheasant Hill Park where you show a ghost plan, or a potential
use into the future. Obviously this little neck area is the intensive use
if you will area of the park because i~'s the only area which can be used.
The rest of it is hills and dales and wetlands and ?onds and that type of
thing.
Schroers: Okay, well I want to give the rest of the commissioners here a
chance to respond too, but my main question was in regard to the seeding
because that was the main thing on the petition.
Andrews: My comments would, I would like to have this come back in
another night when we can spend more time with it, rather than make a
hurry up decision. One of the alternatives I guess I'd want to consider
and I have not made up my mind at all with the, we've had several people
ask about having a hard surface trail rather than a turf trail. I don't
know how that would equate to a tennis court versus a hard surface. That
might be more suitable f6r the area. So I'd like to have more information
on that. I'd also like to look at the idea of, if not a tennis court can
we at least flat grade it so we're not eliminating that option at some
future date if we were to change our minds. To grade that out flat enough
at least to make it easy to put one in at a later date. That probably
""..... wouldn't cost us much.. .come back in there years down the road and tear
everything all to shreds again would be very expensive.
Hoffman: The rough grading does currently exist.
Andrews: So it's flat enough to be used either way?
Hoffman: Correct. I'm not sure about the soils but.
Andrews: Well then with that option, or piece of information already
known, I guess my main thing, I'd like to just have some idea in mind if
there is any equality between tennis court costs and a hard sUl.face trail.
If that's something that would be roughly a swap.
Hoffman: Just rough figuring, they are comparable but the trail would
most likely be somewhat less, at least the segment from the parking lot
north lineal feet. We come up to about 1,800 lineal feet, just roughly
calculating that at $10.00 per lineal foot. So $18,000.00 plus the other
end would bring you up over the $20,000.00 mark so they are comparable.
Andrews: Roughly comparable, okay.
Roeser: Well my comment is just that I'm beginning to think we're going
to have to have a meeting some night and just talk about tennis courts. I
mean this is only my second meeting at the Park and Rec and we've spent
hours talking about tennis courts. I think we're going to have to decide
what we're going to do. Whether we're going to stick little tennis courts
~ over here and over here. If we're going to put them in a central area.
And I think that decision has to be made before we can go on with this.
As far as tennis courts are concerned.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 30
.."""
Andrews: I agree. I think that's one of our hang-ups right now is we
don't know as a city what we want to do with tennis courts in general. It
seems like we have kind of evolved or changed on that. We need to decide
really what we do want to do.
Lash: Another point in tennis courts, it's not only just the initial cost
of putting them in, they're a putting high maintenance item too...either
they don't get maintained properly or we can't put that many in.
Roeser: My experience with tennis courts, and I bicycle around here and
Eden Prairie and Excelsior. A lot of places all the time. Generally the
little tennis courts are sitting looking drab and empty and when you've
got places like up here, that's where the action is. Or where Chaska has
all their courts together, that's where people are playing tennis. Most
of the. time you see two little kids hitting the ball back and forth and
then arguing about who's going to go over and pick them up after they hit
them over the fence so I really think the real tennis played in central
areas where you've got 4, 5, 6 tennis courts. That's where you see the
real tennis players. Just from my observation.
Hoffman: In speaking with both the National Organizations, the National
Recreation and Park Association and the National Tennis Court and Track
Builders Associ~tion, they had that same recommendation. If you are
building tennis courts, build them in banks of 4 to 6 to 8 courts. Put
them in community, centrally located locations and you will be much more
successful in your operation of your city courts.
.....,
Schroers: That is pretty much what we've been evolving to and coming to
here is that we are putting them in the bigger parks where there is
parking. The other thing is that it's mainly for the most part, adults
using them. Kids do go and play but basically most of your tennis court
use is adult. Adults have the ability to transport themselves a short
distance in order to play tennis and therefore we don't feel that we need
a tennis court in every neighborhood park.
Manders: I guess the comment that I have pertains to that trail system.
Cost being a consideration in terms of where one spends the money. I
would be interested in knowing how the city wide trail system would
potentially hook up with this other than obviously the streets but I mean,
it looks like a nice area to have a trail but unless it's accessible I
think with the city system, it makes it a little less useful and it's more
of that area's intended use only instead of taking advantage of the entire
city.
Hoffman: In response to that Commissioner Manders is this is not part of
the city's comprehensive trail plan. You would, if this were constructed,
you would have an isolated 8 foot bituminous trail system within a
neighborhood which then would need to be, which would be connected by
concrete, 5 foot concrete sidewalks out to the comprehensive trail system
out in your major corridors.
Berg: I guess my concerns have pretty much been expressed already. One
that I haven't heard talked about too much is the idea of the turf trail.
I understand the concern with using the sidewalk and with the cars backing
.."""
""'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 31
out of the driveways. I grew up in the city. I understand that concern
very much. My concern in relation to that though is if you turn the trail
by the parks into a bituminous or a paved trail, the parks that I've gone
to where they allow Rollerblading or inline skating, etc, not everybody's
real good at it. And I guess my concern, just off the top of my head is
I'd be concerned about safety there too. If I'm a parent with a young
child who's just learning to walk or I'm a parent with a stroller, these
guys come along, these people come along awfully fast and not always in an
awful lot of control and the same thing with kids on bikes. I know that
my child, who's in second grade, doesn't understand the concept of
stopping a bicycle yet except by running into something or falling off.
And I'd hate to think that that would be a young child that she runs into.
So I need to get more information about that. I'd really like to see us
explore Jan's idea and maybe some other alternatives to what we can do to
make as many people happy as possible. I need more time.
Koubsky: That's a good comment.
don't know if you guys have been
came off this summer and we left
did.
Sunset Ridge has got a small hill. I
over there but my kid's training wheels
a lot of flesh on that hill. We really
Hoffman: That hill would be no comparison.
,..... Koubsky: There's a lot of speed there and that really may become a safety
issue.
Resident: Would that turf be bikeable? I know you couldn't use
Rollerblades but would it be bikeable? Would it be maintained by the City
and cut such that, you know when you talk turf, what do you mean? Do you
mean gravel Or do you mean mowed?
Schroers: No, grass.
Resident: Mowed. And it would be kept mowed by the city?
Hoffman: Correct.
Resident: Because I know on the side of that trail, and especially our's
right now up in Mallard Court, nobody takes care of that. It's weeds and
that's the way it was on Lake Susan Hills Drive for the longest time.
Resident: Those weeds were 6 feet long before they cut them this past
summer.
Resident: Right. And the City's on us to keep our lawns...and they
aren't taking care of that.
Resident: ...made a good point too that it's mostly mud in the parks and
a turf trail's going to be a mud trail for a long, long time. Because if
people use this, it will continue to be a mud trail.
I"'"
Lash: Well we have a turf trail around the Chan Pond Park and I've walked
that and I think it's nice. It gives more of a natural feel. That's a
real natural park and that's different.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 32
--'
Resident: We've got houses allover that area. There is no trees other
th~n what the people have planted...
Koubsky: But that's this year. You know it is going to evolve and you
have just as many folks here today saying don't cut any grass. Leave the
cover. So it's a give and take. Brand new neighborhood. You know you
guys don't even have sod yet. I'm still getting your dust.
Lash: You know and I look at this and know how long it's going to take us
to do this because of our funding. And I can only tell you how I feel and
maybe we don't agree on this at all but if I was going to spend $18,000.00
in here, I would much rather see it go into some of the playground
equipment and basketball court and those kinds of things and the trail
would be down the road, but you could always use the turf trail for a few
years and then ask for, when money starts, as we start being able to
budget more money in there a few years later, we can always go back and
pave it at that time. That would be the way I would look at it.
Resident: Are we saying that if we take those tennis courts out, are we
saying that that enables $27,000.00...?
Lash: Yes...This money wasn't budgeted yet...because right now all we
have budgeted for that park is $2,500.00 for trees next year and
$18,000.00 for play equipment the next year. So the tennis court wasn't
even budgeted.
-'"
Resident: Basically very little has been budgeted... And the second
question I have is, we're looking at the illumination of the tennis courts
here, db the tennis courts in Sunset Hills park, which hasn't been built
either yet, are we looking at illuminating that as well?
Andrews: Most li kel y.
Resident: So it would not be an option then...compromise situation
instead of putting one tennis court there, to put two there and illuminate
the. . .
Andrews: Most likely not.
Lash: And.then there's tennis courts at Lake Susan Community Park. If we
want to come up with a service area that we think is something that we
think is viable, and there's one at Lake Susan Community Park, chances are
your neighborhood would fall within that service area.
A resident made a comment from the audience that was not heard on the
tape.
Hoffman: Lake Susan, no? They certainly could be though in the future.
In a community park setting such as that.
Resident: ...if the tennis courts may be eliminated from both parks, are
we going to get trails so that we can get to Lake Susan from our
subdivision? I mean it stops...and then it stops and then there's mOTe of
...".
,.....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
Feb,uary 23, 1993 - Page 33
a gravel thing and then it stops. I mean there's no way to get anywhere
on bike...to get to the tennis courts if that is something.
Lash: Someday.
Schroers: Yeah, the,e is a proposed trail system.
Hoffman: That's an item on the Commission's agenda. We'll be addressing
Lake Susan Hills West 9th Addition, which will be including the
construction of...trails. These segments will be coming in. This is
Prairie Knoll Park and these two lots are for high density residential, as
is this lot. Long skinny lot down along this area. So these two are
coming in as well for development. They will be const,ucting a trail
along the frontage of their lots. Then the city will pick it up at that
point at the park property and bring it up to the Lake Susan or Lake Drive
so that you can access into the park. This construction may initiate this
summer. This is just in for preliminary approval so the 9th Addition is
in the approval process and has not been approved. If it would be
app,oved the soonest in about a month and a half. Construction activity
could start late this summer but there's concern about the loss of trees
down in this area which may hold that approval p,ocess up.
Resident: Are there going to be houses along that path...?
",....,
Hoffman: Houses here? Correct. This is the housing which will go in.
Resid~nt: Is that more...?
Hoffman: Yes.
Resident: As long as we're talking about taking money that you really
haven't budgeted for, I guess as long as we're talking with that Lake
Susan Park is the park that's accessible to the neighbo,hood that most of
us live in, I would strongly like, that's going to be our...on the other
side of the highway. I'd like to see us strongly consider a pedestrian
overpass over Powers Boulevard so that our kids are not... You know, you
tell them not to go, they',e going to go anyway.
Resident: Isn't that street going to also be torn up...
Hoffman: Powers Boulevard, it's a county roadway and it will be upgraded
at some point most likely to a 4 lane highway with acceleration and
decele,ation lanes connecting down to the south to the Highway 212 but
that again will be some point in the future. I would strongly doubt that
you would eve, see any consideration of an overpass or an unde,pass on
Powers Boulevard.
Resident: That would be really ha,d for people to go ove, too.
I"'"
Lash: They're really expensive.
trying to have one across TH 5 to
side of town. We've talked about
us that that would be...
We talked about when TH 5 gets expanded
connect to Lake Ann Park to the south
liking to see that and they're telling
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - page 34
..."""
Schroers: Realistically what we would be talking about would be like a 4
way stop or a traffic signal with a crosswalk and it will be in an area
where care and caution will need to be taken. That's probably what we're
going to be dealing with realistically. We're going to have to get things
moving on here. I think it's pretty much the 'general consensus that...
try to make decisions on this tonight without spending more time and
addressing our focus specifically to these issues and studying it a little
bit more. Since you did sign your name, when Power Hill Park comes up on
the agenda again, you will be notified so that you will. be able to att~nd.
We thank you all very much for your input. It's helpful for us to know
that there is so much concern. With your help we're going to try to do
the best that we can. These things don't happen overnight. The money
isn't there and so bear with us on that and thank you very much for
coming.
Lash: I have a suggestion for you guys. Some other neighbors...had a lot
of interest in their park being developed did a neighborhood survey...to
find out how everybody felt and what they thought was their first priority
and last priority and on down the line. Then we can use that as a
guide...
'Koubsky: That should help pull you together.
Hoffman: Thank you very much for coming.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. PRELIMINARY PLAT. LAKE SUSAN HILLS 9TH
ADDITION. ARGUS DEVELOPMENT.
--'
Hoffman: Chairman Schroers and Commission members. This is a preliminary
plat to subdivide 76 acres into 93 lots on property zoned Planned Unit
Development, Lake Susan Hills West 9th. The applicant is Argus
Development, or Joe Miller Homes. Present zoning of this property is
PUD-R. Planned Unit Development Residential. The adjacent zonings are
all PUD residential in addition to the park and open space in Lake Susan.
In regard to the comprehensive plan and the comprehensive trail plan,
those issues are addressed in the Attachment A. The development contract,
which was established with Argus Development on December 18th of 1987. In
that regard it calls out the acquisition of parkland, one of which was the
Power Hill we discussed tonight and it calls out the trail constructions.
Construction of trails which I will be showing you and have previously put
up on the overhead. This application does therefore fall into the
jurisdiction of the previously referenced development agreement between
Argus Development and the City of Chanhassen. Actions necessary by the
applicant to comply with OUT contract include the dedication of Outlot E
to the City. Outlot E being that area south and east of the development.
This area down here and it comes down to the outlot... This outlot
matches, it's the twin to the outlot which was acquired as a part of the
Chanhassen Hills development on this site. So we're matching these two in
the middle and making a nice, mostly wetland area, open space component to
our park system. It also requires the construction of an 8 foot wide
bituminous trail along the west side of Lake Susan as indicated on your
Attachments S, segments D and E. I believe those are important segments
and would briefly like to reference them. Segment S is currently in place
from this point to this point. However, it was put in at substandard
...."",I
11"'"
,....
,....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 35
quantities. The aggregate underneath that trail is only about 2 inches
thick and the asphalt itself is approximately an inch and a half or less.
So the City never accepted that trail. It's deteriorated to an extent
where trees are growing through the trail. Joe Miller Homes, the
applicant has stated they will be replacing that in the process of
constructing Segment E... So those are the trails on the west side of the
lake that are required as a part of this agreement. They also are
required to construct an 8 foot wide bituminous trail along the east side
of Powers Boulevard, County Road 17 as indicated on Attachment B, Segment
B excuse me. So this B is, this middle segment is the only one they are
required to do. Segment A, the City was bought off if you will on that
segment. When they platted this development, instead of having to build
this little stub, we accepted the cash in lieu of that. I'm now
recommending a bargainng position because Joe Miller is proposing to put
these retention ponds partially within the city property. That we are
going to use that as a bargaining position for not only these trail
Segments A and then Segment C, which is outside of their project area. It
makes good sense to complete down to Lyman Boulevard. We'd be using those
two trail segments and then the preservation of some trees in this area
hopefully in that bargaining position. The second gap is a segment which
currently does not exist. You'll notice on their site plan they show
Segment F coming down in a configuration around these lots and connecting
up with Powers. Obviously the end result is to get from this point out
onto Powers and the southern end of this development. Whether that comes
between lots in this location or around the lots in this location really
does not matter just so it's a useable trail connection. Again, the
remainder of the report references the issue on the holding ponds. It is
certainly a designation which should not be taken lightly. That is city
property. It will be city property. It's in the-contract to deed it to
the city and then for Joe Miller Homes to come back and say well we want
to benefit from that property by putting these holding ponds in there,
does not hold well with the city. So we will be using that in an effort
to get these trail systems in and hopefully in an effort to same some of
the trees, which is getting to be an issue with this development.
Obviously the proposal is bound by the rules and the conditions of
approval which were required as part of the 1987 approval of this PUD, so
the city's hands are tied in many respects and in fact the recommendation
before YOU this evening is merely a formality. The issue of park
dedication and park fees has formally been reviewed and recommended and
set in stone for this development. The City is receiving one half park
fees for these developments, Lake Susan Hills West and we will be received
zero dollars in trail fees because of these trails which are being
constructed. I reference this as the cashing in phase for the city.
Obviously the majority of the construction of trails will take place in
this phase so I'm not taking that issue lightly with this developer. We
want to see those trail connections go in. They will be making the
necessary arrangements with the County and with all the other agencies who
are involved for any permits or that type of thing to get those jobs done.
So it is the recommendation to require the following conditions of
approval as outlined. The dedication of Outlot E to the city. The
construction of the 8 foot wide bituminous trail on the west side of Lake
Susan. Both segments D and E. The construction of an 8 foot wide
bituminous trail along Powers Blvd as indicated. And then furthermore, to
accept the construction of trail segments A. The one to the north in the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 36
.....""
park. C. The segment south connecting to Lyman. And F, the inter
connection between Powers Blvd and the outlot. And this, for payment in
kind for the encroachment by Argus Development on park property, I caution
you in making that recommendation. That that will not be the only payment
in kind which will be asked of Argus Development for that encroachment so
I'm not sure if a representative of Argus Development is here this
evening, but at least we h~ve that on record. This encroachment shall be
limited to the ponding of the water as identified on the proposed
preliminary plat. Furthermore, that the construction of said trail shall
adhere to all stipulations previously identified in this packet. You do
have an alternative position if you choose to take it. That you may
choose to construction segments A, C and F and tell the applicant to take
their ponding of water elsewhere onto their own property. With that, I
think the remainder of the audience members here this evening may be here
to discuss the issue of trees and preservation or destruction of the trees
on this plat. Obviously it's your process this evening is merely a
formality. The Planning Commission will be reviewing this initially on
March 17th and will be delving into much more deeply the issue of trees.
I have prepared, which I believe some of the audience members have taken a
look at, an aerial view which shows th~ proposed plat which I'll pass
around to the commissioners so you can get an idea and the effect which
this development will have on the tree stands in that area.
Schroers: Thanks Todd.
Andrews: Todd, were you saying that because of the PUD agreement we
really have no way to impose any more requirements about trees?
.......".
Hoffman: COTrect.
Andrews: Okay.
Lash: I have a question...clear in my mind. On the drawing.
at the same one...but the area within the dotted line, is that
that they're talking about developing? Like where the A is?
area, is that what's being developed?
I'm looking
the area
That empty
Hoffman: Correct. This entire area here. The road is ,winding through,
coming directly across from Lake Susan. Winding through that open area.
Coming up along this steep grade hillside and then connecting in both at
this point and up to this point. And then the one area which affects
trees in that area is Mallard Court...and Mallard Court coming down
through here... '
Lash: Okay. The reason for my question and I think I know the answer
now, but I was trying to figure out the reason for Section A because it
comes into Dove court and then it looks to me like it doesn't go anywhere.
You wouldn't be able to go anywhere. Would that West Lake Drive will then
be thru so that?
Hoffman: Correct. It ~ill be thru and then have on street sidewalk.
Lash: So you'd be able to get access to Section E to get you up to Lake
Susan Park?
....."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
.~ February 23, 1993 - Page 37
Hoffman: Correct.
Schroers: Okay. I think at this point we'd be interested in hearing
comments from anyone who would like to address this issue.
Robert Smithburg: My name is Robert Smithburg and Todd we have a group
statement here about this development, and I'm just going to read you my
thoughts on this. I am here tonight to voice my concerns about the Argus
Development. Within the proposed development area we have a unique
opportunity for the residents of Chanhassen to enjoy one of the largest
and the oldest unspoiled tracts of hardwoods within our city. It is unique
now but this uniqueness could be gone and we have concerns that need to be
examined closely. Even with imposed rules and codes for construction, it
is inevitable root damage will occur due to the use of heavy equipment and
fill procedures and then death certainly comes shortly thereafter. We
have a prime example of this in our neighborhood now and this is in
Barbara Court where numbers of old trees have been killed through
construction. The choice before us is either destroy and...a valuable
tract of century'old hardwoods or preserve and enhance this valuable
attribute to our community and it's residents. This is our challenge. We
have the opportunity to stop deforestation and damage. We need to
consider this and preserve this area for the future.
".
Schroers: Thank you. I don't know if you are aware but the City of
Chanhassen is currently formulating a Tree Board that is going to deal
specifically with the issues of trees. It's going to be a very aggressive
board and very much in tune with preserving, protecting and reforesting
the city of Chanhassen. However Todd, you said that this particular item
falls under the jurisdiction of.
.Hoffman: A planned unit development which contracts.
Schroers: A PUD?
Hoffman: Correct, which was entered into by the City with Argus
Development in '87.
Schroers: Okay, so because of that we have very little control over what
happens with those trees at this point?
".....
Hoffman: That is the current consensus. However, it certainly has been
shown in the past that positive involvement, negotiation between existing
neighborhoods and incoming developments can certainly provide some type of
satisfaction for both parties. Obviously short of the city walking in and
buying this property, this developer is not going to walk away from it.
And the deal which was cut, if you will, in '87 did include preservation
of a small area of these trees. As you can see by the lots on Mallard
Court, the second Mallard Court which will be renamed, out at the end of
that cul-de-sac there is a portion of those trees which was retained. So
yes, the City is bound fairly heavily by the PUD agreement. We will
certainly attempt to work with, and we being, Planning staff, the Planning
Commission and the City Council to work with the developer to the end of
preserving as many trees as possible.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 38
....",
Schroers: Okay and for the purpose of clarification. In the
recommendation that we are going to try to formulate here tonight, as it's
been given to us, by recommending the construction of the trails and so
on, how much of an impact is our recommendation going to have on those
existing trees?
Hoffman: The only impact that it would have would be in the area of
bargaining for the additional trail segments for the option of Argus
Development to put those retention ponds out into the park. So that
bargaining will continue to take place and that will include potentially
some preservation of these trees, although I couldn't tell you, if you
asked the question, we do not know how they will respond in tha.t regard.
So that would be the only area of your recommendation or your motion which
would effect those trees.
Schroers: Just the bargaining. The construction that we're recommending
of the trail is not in any way going to interfere with those particular
trees or cause any kind of construction damage?
Hoffman: It's a formality to bring everybody up to speed in an issue
which is 6 years old is what this item is. Is being presented for. For
the record I would like to present to the Commission the petition which
has been handed me. We, the residents of Chanhassen Hills are against the
proposed development of the 9th Addition of Lake Susan Hills development.
The development will destroy a natural wildlife habitat, destroy land and
century old trees and destroy our neighborhood recreation area. It's
signed by 17 residents of Chanhassen Hills. My only comment in this
regard is that the neighborhood recreation area, if you will, is the
outlot and that certainly is being preserved. If the 17 people signing
this perceive the private property of Argus Development to be their
recreation area, I don't agree with that assumption.
....",
Schroers: Okay, is there anyone in attendance here this evening from
Argus Development?
Lash: Did we ever have anything slated for any kind of park property down
there?
Hoffman: No, that's a passive, other than the trail connection from
Barbara Court and Powers Boulevard up to Lake Susan Community Park.
Koubsky: Prairie Knoll, is that up there?
Lash: That's this little wedge right up here.
the tot lot or something.
I think we did talk about
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: It seems to me that we have something to gain by allowing
ponding on our park property, or at least get our trail systems in to
perhaps get some leverage on perhaps saving certain special trees or
special small areas of trees and we're really in a very weak bargaining
position. I mean we're almost at a point of just kind of begging or ....",
hoping that we can get as much as we can. Hoping that the Planning
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~. February 23, 1993 - Page 39
Commission also will see this as an opportunity to perhaps take a little
bit of protective action themselves. But because we're in a PUD, that is
a contract with the City, we cannot renig on that contract without the
consequences of a lawsuit of which we would have virtually no chance of
winning.
Hoffman: The PUD did not specify that they would have the right to put
their ponds on 6ity property. The land in which they are encroaching upon
is valuable property.
Andrews: So they're changing, they're altering the, wishing to alter the
contract and what you're saying here is that's our opportunity to get
something in return.
Hoffman: Absolutely. If they were forced to push these ponding areas
back up into their property, they would lose profits because they would
lose lots.
Andrews: I think we ought to use that opportunity for the trails and to
make a strong recommendation for preserving as much hardwood...tree area
as we possibly can...
,.....
A question was asked from the audience that could not be heard on the
tape.
Andrews: It's required for property and road drainage. That's part of an
engineering process I believe the city goes through. Planning.
Hoffman: Chanhassen Hills has the ponds. The one collects in the park
from the streets in Chanhassen Hills and then it's piped underneath there
to the pond which is behind Barbara Court. Then it discharges from that.
Resident: So that's what you're talking about ponding?
Hoffman: Storm water runoff.
Schroers: Okay, let's continue on with the.
Dave: I'd like to point out, Dave..., I live in the development and I
guess I think that it's the duty of both citizens and parks department to
work in partnership, and that's also with city government. You can take a
look at Division II Tree Preservation Code, City of Chanhassen, you'll
note in point number 8. At the City's discretion, conservation easements
may be required to protect designated tree preservation areas. So this is
there already. That means that the City does have some say so over what
happens. And that in some respects maybe the legality is right here on
this piece of paper. It's already part of the law. So I'd like you to
also consider that.
,.....,
Hoffman:
in 1987.
Again, to clarify the conditions of the contract were confirmed
Dave: Okay, when did this come into being then?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 40
""'"
Hoffman: That condition I cannot speak directly as to when.
Dave: Okay, you might want to have your attorneys look at that then.
Hoffman: They have.
Dave: Okay.
Schroers: A conservation easement is something that we have to apply for.
We just can't decide to do it. Isn't that correct?
Hoffman: Correct.
Schroers: We have to apply for that through the Department of Natural
Resources and all that sort of thing. We don't have the power to say
okay, that's a nice natural area. We're going to declare it a
conservation area.
Hoffman: Well it can be a negotiation as part of a platting process but
this platting process has initially been approved on a PUD. It will come
through the preliminary plat approval process and the final plat process
as a part of the 9th Addition, but again I don't need to reiterate that
the items we can address at this point are somewhat restricted.
Roeser: One comment that I have about this leverage, if that's what you
want to call it, what we might have. That that leverage be used towards
the preservation of trees because you can always put in a trail.
....."
Koubsky: One of the problems with that leverage is, if they decide to
take this pond off of city property and I think, I don't know if you were
eluding to that or not Todd, that may I think come back out and it looks
like they can take off an. arm of trees...
Resident: Could you please speak up.
Koubsky: Oh I'm sorry. Looking at one of these maps, where the pond is
going to go and we're saying hey, you can't put the pond on the city
property and to try and use that as leverage. Then they would be forced to
move the pond onto the lots which, and then Mr. Miller would have less
lots to sell. But a couple of those lots are, or one lot anyway is a
treed lot. I guess my concern would be, and I don't think he's going to
sacrifice a-lots, which are going to go probably for $50,000.00. Well,
probably more than that. It might be over like $75,000.00 each.
$50,000.00 each. You know to bargain back. But I'm concerned that we
make our recommendation that he cannot use the city property, that we're
not introducing other concerns when he opts to call our bluff and move it.
I think you eluded to that too Larry.
Schroers: Okay, let's keep this organized and try to finish first with
the residents opinions and then we'll try to move through this thing. So
sir.
Steve Slack: I live along the lake.
.....,;
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 23, 1993 - Page 41
Lash: Could you come over to the mic because the tape doesn't pick you up
unless. . .
Hoffman: State your name and address too. Then we can inform you of
future meetings.
Steve Slack: I'm Steve Slack and I live at 8675 Chanhassen Hills Drive
and I have the lot that's closest to the creek that leads into Lake Susan.
I'd just like to suggest that, I've never seen public officials that
didn't take a position that couldn't make something happen if they
believed in the situation. The trees on my lot where I built my home, I
had the University of Minnesota come out and look at those trees before
I built my lot on Lake Susan, and I invite you to come out to my house and
look it and look at the landscaping that I've done around those trees.
The tree that actually sits on Lake Susan is 150 years old according to
the University of Minnesota. I put in probably $60,000.00 worth of rock
retaining walls around my house to preserve the trees around this area.
So my suggestion would be to the city, and to this commission is, to take
that into consideration. Come out and look at that lot. You can use that
as an example. Bring the developer out and have them look at that and
take into consideration the size of the trees that are across that creek
bed along that side of that hill and then you make your determination and
they make their determination whether you think those trees are important
enough to save. And that's basically all I have to say and I invite you
",-.. to come out and look at the lot on my property.
Andrews: One comment I'd like to make is I think everyone of us up here
is in favor of saving every tree we can. I think what we're concerned
about is what this PUD is. The water so to speak is over the dam and
we're not in a legal position to do it. We'd like to be but it's too
late. That decision should have been made when the PUD was drawn up in
'87, at least that's the way I understand it.
Steve Slack: It's my understanding that this gentleman made some changes
and redid some park areas around here after the fact when other decisions
were made. So I think we'd take the same initiative and make an attempt -
to make some changes here when it's right for the city instead of just
backing up and saying we can't.
Lash: And the changes that we've made are all...city property. Those
kinds of things. It doesn't concern an outside business where we could
get set up for a lawsuit. If we have a legal contract, it's hard-to now
go back on it without having a lot of problems...
Steve Slack: Ever seen a development that's not negotiable?
Lash: Yep. Had one in here a few weeks ago.
,....
Steve Slack: . ..sense of the past in this situation where I'd really
recommend that you use the leverage...thatyou have. You have to go out
and see this tract of land to appreciate and understand it. I mean these
trees are, there's no way you can get your arms around the trees. They're
beautiful...and if we lose this without careful development, I think we'll
be very sorry.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 42
.....,I
Lash: What kind of a percentage are we looking at? That we think will be
lost...
Hoffman: Those figures were very hard to put a finger on and that's the
reason I drafted that overlay on the aerial this morning. It shows you
that there is going to be significant tree loss. Let me reassure the
audience members and the Commission that the City Council members that
I have spoke to, Planning Commission members, Planning Commission staff,
and the Mayor of the Cit9 of Chanhassen, have all spoken in favor of
attempting to reduce the tree loss in this area to the greatest extent
possible. Obviously short of outright purchase, you cannot save all of
these trees. The Planning Department has contacted Argus Development
encouraging them to set up neighborhood meetings with the residents of
Chanhassen Hills to discuss this, similar to what occurred at the Oak
Ponds over here with the Saddlebrook neighborhood. So it is our hope that
those type of situations will occur. Those meetings will take place. But
again, this is the starting point of a process which I think is going to
take on new parameters that we can't even understand at this point. Trees
are a very hot issue in the city of Chanhassen. However, the right to do
with your property as you choose within the context of the ordinances
which are placed upon you by the city is still paramount.
Peter Olson: I'm Peter Olson. I live at 8635 Chanhassen Hills and when
my wife and I discovered Chanhassen about 4 years ago, and decided to
build here, it wasn't because of the proximity to our jobs. We both have
long commutes. The closeness of downtown Minneapolis, the airport or
fabulous shopping out here in Chanhassen. It was the rolling hills and
the beautifully forested areas and that's why we decided to build in
Chanhassen. I mean it just overwhelmed us. So when I talked to our
developer/builder we chose a lot, some of you brought up a good point on
topic three. We paid $10,000.00-$12,000.00 premium for our lot more than
the people directly across the street because there's a park back there
but it's all lowlands. But I asked about the trees and they had talked to
City Hall and maybe I was misled but they said, oh the City will never let
anything happen to that old grove forest. Well, now come to realize it's
only park property down there is the lowland area which is unbuildable.
That's probably why the city obtained it...The forester came out here and
he's making a record of all the old trees. Well come to talk to the
neighbors and I talked to a State Forester yesterday, it's probably a
logger's been in there. Then what concerns me about that, you know I
can't stop him from, the developer from, there's probably a mint to be
made on all that lumber there, but I see the west, or the east side of the
development way down to the edge of the forested area even if they put
houses up on the knoll and level that off, and these people and these lots
back yards, he's got the, I don't know what that means but he's got the
lots or the trees tagged right on the perimeter which is not the building
area. So maybe they're getting greedy and if they're going to get this
land, they want to go and take in all the valuable trees and just leave
some scruffy stuff left. So I guess I'm challenging, you know I would
think the park commission would have more concern to say the other members
of city government and swaying the City Councilor the Mayor or anybody
involved in this decision to see what they can do about preserving, having
less impact I guess on that forested area. I'd just sure hate to see you
lose it. You have to go out there to appreciate that area. Even in the
...""
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~, February 23, 1993 - Page 43
wintertime it's beautiful without it's leaves and everything. So I wish
you'd all go out and look at the area and kind of realize the uniqueness
of it for Chanhassen because it's going to set a precedent. If you allow
the developer to go in and there's a beautiful area just to the south of
there and then it goes on and on, you know Chanhassen has to keep it's
forested areas and I'm glad to hear you're starting a forest program now
but it migh~ be too late for these and I'd just like you to take
everything under consideration. Thank you.
Lash: When you say that you. ..like Jim said, I think we're all willing to
do anything that we can.
Peter Olson: Some of you probably feel more strongly about preserving the
trees than others but you're the ones that probably get more access to
those people than anyone. Give them your thoughts if you've got strong
feelings on them.
Lash: And we can make a recommendation. That's all we can do. We don't
have the power to do anything ourselves. We don't have decision making
power. We can make recommendations to the City Council and we can even
make them to the Planning Commission too but they don't have the power
either. The City Council has the decision making ability. All we can do
is make a recommendation. We can certainly do that and I always find it
interesting when people come in and say, well you know we moved here
.,...... because it was beautiful and hilly and wooded afnd it was not all built up
and, because I was in exactly, and I am. I feel exactly the same as you
do but I moved here 16 years ago and as soon as you move here you want to
slam the door and not let anybody else come out and cut down any trees...
Peter Olson: .. .development per se. I think this will be great for
Chanhassen. A lot of nice homes and beautiful lots but I just have a
problem with taking out old grove forests. I think something can or
should be worked out with trying to save most of that.
Schroers: We all have a problem with that but the City can't do anything
with the private land. How would you feel if the City came on your
private land and said, you don't, we're going to take those trees off of
your property or you wanted an open space and we came and said, we're
going to put trees on your property. We don't have the right to tell
private landowners what to do. We can make suggestions.
Lash: Or if you want to cut a tree down and they came and said no, you
can't cut a tree down on your own property. We all understand what you're
saying but there's so many different things at play.
Koubsky: In the interest of trying to do this and work together, can you
suggest any alternatives to us or more importantly the City Council to
deal with the fact that we have a binding contract with this developer and
it is his land. I don't know, I'm not an attorney, I don't know how to
deal with that issue. I have a real burning desire to save every tree in
this town but I don't know to deal with a contrac~ that's already in
existence. So maybe you can give us some help.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 44
Peter Olson: If I was looking for lots in Chanhassen now, I would be
really attracted to those lots if you left the woods there but they tear
that out and make it a big meadow or cornfield and look like everything
else, I mean it has more appeal if he leaves the trees there I would
think...few more lots if he levels those trees and sells off the timber.
I just wanted to add too that...trail system, I prefer like a woodchip
trail just to keep, it's more of a nature area back there. We don't need
kids and Rollerbladers going by lickety split. Maybe put woodchips and
have. ..so I'd put in my vote for a woodchip trail in that area.
Don Wisdorf: Good evening. I'm Don Wisdorf. I live on 8639 Chanhassen
Hills Drive and I like Peter went out this weekend to kind of get an idea
in regards to how many trees are involved and so forth. I took a count
just immediately behind us and I wanted to be able to, and also took some
pictures. I wanted to show you some of the pictures to give you an idea
of what kind of trees we're talking about as far as the size and age of
them and so forth. And Todd, I was wondering if you could put the first
overhead up that shows the original layout. I marked on the drawing where
these pictures, the approximately area where these pictures are taken from
and as you can tell, it's basically around the area that's across from our
neighborhood. It's now called Mallard Drive or going to be called Mallard
Drive. But if you take a look at that, you can tell that all those trees
are right up Ln the area where the street is going to be developed and
where the houses, and also between the street and where the houses are
going to be built. If you study the topography of this area, they're
basically going to have to come in and shave off the soil and push the
dirt over the edge of the hi 11 . I n order to do that, they'll have to
take out all those trees. Now, it's pretty hard to tell how many trees
are in there, and this is one of the typical things that a builder leaves
the City Council with and also the neighborhood with in a dilemma. They
show the plat drawing but they never really show how many trees are there.
How big the trees are and I think it's admirable what Chanhassen is doing.
To take an effort towards at least hopefully eventually establishing some
way of recording that for future development. You don't have control over
private land and we don't have a situation here where we feel we can tell
that builder what to do with his private land. He's got every right in
the world to build there and we realize that. But the City and the
neighborhood can persuade to have him do certain things. In other words,
there are certain rules and requirements for all developers in Chanhassen
that they have to follow in order to be able to maximize their investment
and build within the city. And this is a start. I realize we're probably
7 years too late on this to a certain degree, but actually it's not too
late to start right now because the thinking process for being able to
preserve the trees in our city starts in the neighborhood and it starts at
this commission. It starts at the Planning Commission and it starts at
the City Council. And it can start right now, the thinking of what we
need to do to be able to work with developers to minimize that impact on
these trees. Now in a general area there where I've shown the pictu~es. I
went out and I counted trees that were more than 2 feet in diameter, and
it wasn1t 20 or 30 or 40. I counted 130 trees in that general area there
that were 2 feet or more in diameter. Now a tree, the maples and elms
that are back there are roughly, and the best estimate we can get. It all
depends on the soil they grow in, are roughly between 80 and 200 years
old. They're some of the oldest trees in Chanhassen. Some of those
....."
...""
...""
,.....
tI""".
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 45
trees could possibly have started growing before Minnesota became a state
and so this is, it's a serious issue that I think we need to start
addressing now. If not fQr this development, at least start some impact
in this development but also for future developments. Some of the trees
are 3 to 4 feet in diameter which in circumference is about 10 to 12 feet
in circumfer~nce that are very large trees. Another thing about these
trees and it was pointed out before. If you put any type of covering over
the existing ground around the tree, any heavy equipment that travels over
it, it will kill an oak. There's no question about it. We've seen this
on Barbara Court already where they tried very carefully not to damage it.
And it killed 2 of the 3 large trees in that area. Again, the developer
has a right to be able to build here but we also have a responsibility in
the community to be able to work with him. To be able to minimize that
impact. I think there are certain things that you can do, and if I may.
I went out and counted trees in this area. Actually right in this area
right here and driving around this development, there's even more that are
being impacted right in this area. And it seems that if you can get a
chance to walk this area, you'll be striken by the fact that where all the
bulldozing is taking place and lots are being put in is where all the
trees are. where this open area is is some lowland but also cornfield.
And I tend to believe that there should be a way to deal to reduce the
impact upon these two areas by shifting some of the lots slightly. By
rerouting possibly some of this area into housing developments and having
these lots butt up to the tree area more rather than wiping them out. I
know I would pay a significant amount more money to buy my lot to be able
to be near the trees. And I'm sure that the property value here could be
enhanced by saving more of these trees for the builder. I guess in
conclusion that I'd like to again urge you to start now the process that
we have before us to preserve trees like this, not only in this
neighborhood here but also with future developments. And if there's
anything that we can do in helping the planning process with this area,
and also to be able to, we want to work with the developer to try to get
him to understand our concern for our finding a way to minimize the impact
upon what this area is going to have on these fine and old stand of trees.
Thanks.
Schroers: Thank you very much. Your point is well taken and you want to
know what you can do, and that is to take this to the City Council along
with our strong recommendation. Keep this. Take it with you. Bring it
to the City Council along with our recommendation and support that I'm
going to ask for right now. Is a motion to do all that we can do at this
level with whatever influence we have is what we are going to attempt to
do right now. And then it goes to City Council. Take our support along
with your good work and conscienciousness and love of nature along to the
City Council and keep on pushing and that is the best ammunition you've
got.
Lash: Is it going to Planning Commission first?
Hoffman: Yes. It will go to Planning Commission on March 17th.
Commissioners a suggestion in regard to the motion. In light of the
negotiations which are going to take place in this, on this subject, would
be that rather than entering into amotion which deals with the bargaining
of tTading ponds for trails and those types of things, that you leave that
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 46
....."
sit at the present time.
conditions of approval be
regard to the other trail
then that we pick up with
point in the future.
Pass a motion recommending that the previous
upheld by the City Council for this PUD in
segments and the dedication of Outlot E. And
the issue of trading ponds for trails at some
Andrews: That just made it a lot harder for me to do this.
Lash: Well wait a minute. I'm not sure. I'm confused why you're
suggesting that.
Hoffman: Well the issue of trees, as Commissioner Manders pointed out, is
probably more important than getting these additional segments of trail
put in. So if the City has any ability to bargain, we want to save
whatever bargaining power we have. Rather than let go some of that this
evening in formulating a motion which says we want to bargain trails for
the poning.
Lash: .. .we have our motion more in the form of we're willing to bargain
for the ponds for tree preservation? Or can't we do that?
Hoffman: That would be the position of the Planning Commission, which
planning city staff members to the Planning Commission will be taking that
to them.
Koubsky: I think we need to identify that we do have the bargaining chip
and then as a city figure out how to best use that.
....,.,
Hoffman: By not taking action on it this evening, you leave the Planning
Commission more leeway is what you're doing.
Lash: But if we're not giving our support for tree preservation within
the motion, how are they going to know that we are.
Hoffman: Oh, absolutely you want to do that.
Andrews: Todd can I clarify this, because I've got a motion written out.
what you're recommending is that we uphold the PUD as written and accept
point number 1 on the original recommendation, which is dedication of
Outlot E. And then add to that a condition of tree preservation as the
final point.
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: Okay, I'm willing to, I've got that ready to go. I'd like to
make a motion that we uphold the PUD as written. That we accept point
number 1 of the staff recommendation, which is dedication of Outlot E to
the City. That as a second point that we recommend to City Council and
other interested commissions, that we stress preservation of as many trees
as possible and minimize clearing of lots to absolutely minimums by moving
lot lines and using lowest possible deforestation construction methods.
Lash: In lieu of allowing them to retain, have their holding ponds.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
,.... February 23, 1993 - Page 47
Andrews: That's a separate issue. We're telling them they've got to
stick to all the rules and if they don't.
schroers: Okay.
Lash: Okay, then I'll second that.
Andrews moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend the City Council uphold the PUD as written and require the
following conditions of approval for Lake Susan Hills 9th Addition:
1. Dedication of Outlot E to the City.
2. Recommend to the City Council and other interested commissions to
stress preservation of as many trees as possible and minimize clearing
of lots to absolute minimums by moving lot lines and using lowest
possible deforestation construction methods.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously_
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. PRELIMINARY PLAT. WINDMILL RUN. MICHAEL
KLINGELHUTZ PROPERTY. ROTTLUND COMPANY.
~ Hoffman: Chairman Schroers and Commission members. Fortunately there is
not a speck of vegetation which grows on this property. Not even a piece
of grass, unless it's in the ditch. This is the rezoning of 17.2 acres of
agricultural estate property to residential single family and a
preliminary plat to subdivide that land into 35 single family lots. Let's
go over the location because it does, it is significant that it is
breaking into a new area for Chanhassen in regard to development. This is
west on Highway 5 and then north on Galpin Boulevard and CR 17...south of
Prince's property and again, it's strictly a cornfield.
Lash: Is that Gorra's property?
~
Hoffman: Gorra's property would be to the east. Again, this was formerly
the Michael Klingelhutz property. Here's how it looks coming in off of
County Road 117. The double cul-de-sac and the plan for these roads to
continue to the north and south. Comprehensive plan, in the comprehensive
trail plan were addressed. Those issues were addressed in a memo dated
February 10th to Jo Ann Olsen. You've read that memo. Briefly what it
says is that the, was it in here? Oh yeah, there it is. What I stated is
that parkland, the proposal lies in a park deficient area but due to it's
size, we could only acquire 1.4 acres of property. That acreage is
insufficient for a neighborhood park. In my opinion does not represent a
nest egg to build upon. However the Commission needs to back that
opinion. .My recommendation to the Commission will be accept full park
fees to be paid at the time of building permit application in lieu of
parkland dedication. In regard to trails, I hope we're setting the
precedent in this land proposal review in that we are asking the applicant
for the 20 foot trail easement to enable that trail to be built that is
identified on the comprehensive plan. But we are going further than that
and we are asking them to grade it. To bench it in as part of their
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 48
--'
development and grading process. And then in addition to that, that any
plantingsof trees which take place, occur on the inside of that trail
bench and at a minimum of 10 feet away from the trail. So then 5-6, 10
years on down the line when we stack these developments up and down, north
and south on Galpin Boulevard, we have that bench all the way up in there.
We don't have it planted full of trees so we have to argue about trees for
6 years. Really. So that is a new idea which I'm bringing to the
Commission for your consideration. I think it's a valuable position to
take. In that regard, the recommendation to the Commission would be to
ask the City Council to require the following conditions of approval for
Windmill Run. The acceptance of full park fees to be paid at the time of
building permit application at the rate then in force of parkland
dedication. And a 20 foot trail easement shall be granted to the city
along the applicant's westerly property line. Furthermore, that this
easement shall be included in the grading plan for the project with a
suitable trail bed being prepared. This trail bed may meander within the
easement alingment at the discretion of the applicant but the eventual
alignment must be conducive to future trail construction and is subject to
the approval as part of the grading plan review. Planting of trees shall
be restricted to the areas east of the trail bench. Full trails fees
shall be collected at the time of the building permit application at the
rate then in force to assist in the financing of future trail connections.
Andrews: Please add to the statement above the 10 foot setback to the
trees to your recommendation so that we're consistent.
Hoffman: A friendly amendment and so moved.
...""
Schroers: Yes.
Roeser: Second.
Schroers moved, Roeser seconded that the City Council to require the
following conditions of approval for Windmill Run:
1. The acceptance of full park fees to be paid at the time of building
permit application at the rate then in force of parkland dedication.
2. A 20 foot trail easement shall be granted to the city along the
applicant's westerly property line. Furthermore, that this easement
shall be included in the grading plan for the project with a suitable
trail bed being prepared. This trail bed may meander within .the
easement alingment at the discretion of the applicant but the eventual
alignment must be conducive to future trail construction and is
subject to the approval as part of the grading plan review. Planting
of trees shall be restricted to the areas east of the trail bench with
a setback of 10 feet. Full trails fees shall be collected at the time
of the building permit application at the rate then in force to assist
in the financing of future trail connections.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Lash: This is kind of a Planning Commission thing I want to bring up here --'
but when I look at the layout here, how is that going to be accessed by a
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
JIf1"'" FebT-uary 23, 1993 - Page 49
school bus?
Andrews: Or a fire engine?
Hoffman:. Right now they're going to have to drive down to the end and
turn around.
Lash: Yeah, but they can't do that. A school bus can't do that.
Andrews: In a cul-de-sac they can.
Lash: In a cul-de-sac?
Koubsky: Absolutely. Oh sure.
Lash: They can?
Hoffman: Yeah, the ends of those will be cul-de-sac temporarily until it
goes north and south.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL, SITE PLAN REVIEW, TECHNICAL INDUSTRIAL SALES.
Hoffman: We have a very committed, I think he's still here, Mark
Undestad. The applicant in the audience this evening. The proposal
I"'" before you is a site plan review of a 16,410 square foot office warehouse
facility on correction, 1.3 acres of property. The building is being
called Technical Industrial Sales. It's located down in the Business
Park. Chanhassen Lakes Business Park just here west of town on Lot 3,
Block 1. At the northwest corner of Park Place and Park Road. You can
see on the location map there. The present zoning of the property is
industrial office park. Adjacent land use is all the same, lOP.
Comprehensive plan identifies that this area lies within the park service
areas of both Lake Ann Community Park, Lake Susan Community Park and
Sunset Ridge Park. The comprehensive trail plan unfortunately does not
identify Park Road as a segment on the City's comprehensive trail plan.
That has been discussed at the Planning Commission level as a deficiency
in our plan because you have a lot of employees working in those buildings
and to be able to get them out on a trail system would have been nice.
Water over the dam unfortunately. Recommendation. It is recommended that
the Park and.Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council require
as conditions of approval full park and trail dedication fees for
Technical Industrial Sales in lieu of land dedication or trail
construction. These fees to be paid at the time of building permit
application at the rates then in force. Mark, you'll be interested to
know that they raised those fees last evening. It will be $3,000.00 per
acre for commercial/industrial with one third of that per acre for trail
fees.
Andrews: Do you want a so moved on this?
r
Schroers:
Yes.
Lash: So moved.
Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting
Februa,y 23, 1993 - Page 50
...""",
And,ews: Second.
Hoffman: Any input f,om the applicant?
Ma,k Undestad: No...
Lash moved. Andrews seconded Park and Recreation Commission recommend
that the City Council require as conditions of approval full park and
trail dedication fees for Technical Industrial Sales in lieu of land
dedication or trail construction. These fees to be paid at the time of
building permit application at the rates then in force. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Hoffman: Mark stated he's a new resident of the city and he was
interested in the public process.
Lash: which development do you live in?
Ma,k Undestad: I'm down the,e on Sunset Trail now.
Hoffman: Right next to Power Hill so. In fact the mailing that went to
his residence was returned, forwarding address expired so.
Mark Undestad: Just moved in two weeks ago.
APPROVE 1993 PICNIC RESERVATioN FEES.
-"
Ruegem.r: We're going to move through this very rapidly here.
Sch,oers: Please.
Ruegemer: Is there any questions about the proposed fees for the
pavillion? There wasn't ,eally a whole lot to base that judgment on since
there really isn't a facility in the mettoplitan area of that size and the
amenities included in that area. p,oposing with the fees that a,e in the
memo here. Does anybody have any questions about that or comments?
Lash: Well I have a question. If they pay $200.00 0, whateve, it is,
they still have to pay $2.00 to get in?
Ruegeme,: For parking? Correct. $200.00, are you talking about.
Berg: That's the damage deposit isn't it?
Ruegeme,: The damage deposit?
Lash: No...I can't remember, I read it so long ago.
Hoffman: $187.00.
Lash: So they pay $187.00 to rent the shelter and then everybody that
comes in...
-'
Ruegemer: The daily permit per car.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 23, 1993 - Page 51
Schroers: I think it's a real good place to start. You have to start
somewhere and monitor it for a season and see how it works out. I don't
think that it's not one bit out of line. Looks real good to me.
Andrews: Is that for a whole, like 9:00 in the morning until 9:00 at
night?
Ruegemer: At the present time we don't have any restrictions on time
limitations.
Hoffman: It was my thought that we would be splitting the day so I'm not
sure that we're going to allow a 12 hour activity but to split the day
like a 9:00 to 3:00 and 3:00 to 9:00.
Andrews: That would be real good. Otherwise if somebody were to come in
there as an all day use, that's real cheap. Cheaper than it should be
for all day and I think we should encourage multiple use. That'd be fine.
Hoffman: I can see a potential problem, and Jerry can respond to this, in
that we have numerous company picnics which typically check in like at
Lake Susan around 1:00. 1:00 or noon or 1:00 or 2:00 and then don't leave
until late evening hours.
~
Schroers: You're talking about during the weekdays though.
Hoffman: No. Saturday or Sunday.
Ruegemer: During the weekends, yeah.
Hoffman: They come for the whole day.
Ruegemer: Yeah, and sometimes e~en earlier if they need to set up and get
things ready before. Prepare. Prep time if they have a 200-250 person
picnic coming in. They need some time to prepare and that will cut in I
think if you're going to be imposing time limitations on that.
Andrews: It's a new facility and we're on a learning curve here.
Koubsky: So we're going to be renting out the upstairs all weekend?
Hoffman: And it'd be rented out at any time during the week unless you
want to set aside certain hours. I think they'll be, depending on the
popularity, there will be times when it's not used when the public can go
up there and take in the view and that kind of thing. Because that is a
concern of mine as well.
Andrews: I think we definitely need to block out certain public times
because I think the citizens paid for it. They might be a little upset if
they were to show up and not be able to use it.
Koubsky:
...4th of July or those times right?
,.....
Schroers: But the upstairs part of it, it was designed to be a rental
unit so it should be monitored that way on a rental basis. The only time
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 52
-'
that you don't rent it is like you said, holiday weekends is kind of a
good policy. I'm not sure if I like that split deal though.
Hoffman: It may not work, given the second consideration. I would
recommend that we bring you a mid-year update since this is our first
year.
Schroers: Or have one, designate one day to split and then one day that a
large group could have for the entire day. I mean that really ruins your
picnic if you can only have it half a day.
Andrews: Let's try it as an all day rent. See how it goes.
Berg: What time does the park close?
Hoffman: 10:00 p.m.
Berg: There's a definite closing time right?
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: Do we need a motion or is that just a done deal?
Ruegemer: We need a motion.
Andrews: I move that we accept the staff recommendation for fees for the
picnic reservations.
...."
schroers: Second.
Andrews moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to approve the picnic reservation fees for Lakeside, parkview,
and Lake Susan shelters as presented by staff. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
APPROVE 1993 4TH OF JULY FIREWORKS CONTRACT.
Schroers: I would imagine this is sort of a formality?
Rugemer: Yes, exactly. Everything includes the same, million dollar
liability insurance and sales tax. The whole deal will be included with
the $7,000.00 budgeted amount.
Schroers: I move to approve it.
Berg: I just have a question. I'm wondering why such a large timeframe
there from the 4th to the 9th if the 4th doesn't work out?
Ruegemer: It's because of the, I don't know if they weren't available on
the 5th...
Lash: Well Monday night was the rainout for the dance.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 23, 1993 - Page 53
Berg: I was wondering why they couldn't be the same.
Lash: Because we have fireworks over at Lake Ann Park...
Andrews: Let's make it on a weekend, Friday night. Weekend night. So
the kids can stay up to see it.
Berg: This is the first time I've seen a program for fireworks. Take
that along at night and check it.
Andrews: I'd like, did we get a motion to approve?
Schroers: I did. I'm looking for a second.
Andrews: I will second.
Schroers moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend approval of the 1993 4th of July Fireworks contract with Banner
Fireworks Display Company in the amount of $7,000.00. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
.~. Hoffman: The first one up is the soccer kick wall. That item will
necessitate some discussion. If the Commission isn't up to it this
evening, I would recommend you table it until the next meeting.
Andrews: We're not. I move to table.
Roeser: Second.
Andrews moved, Roeser seconded to table discussion on the Soccer Kick Wall
until the next meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
TEEN NIGHT OUT EVALUATION.
Ruegemer: Any questions on the Teen Night Out?
Berg: Kids are having fun and it's getting real crowded I hear.
Lash: There's always a number of kids...
Berg: Where would you put the Karaoke machine?
Ruegemer: Probably in the courtyard area.
Berg: Do you think they'11 like it?
Lash: I think they will.
,... Berg: My first reaction was the opposite.
Lash: Oh no, I think they'll like it. I heard that at...
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 54
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SKI TRIPS EVALUATION.
Ruegemer: Okay, any questions on the Afton Alps trip.
Andrews: You were lucky not to get anybody hurt out of a group that size.
Ruegemer: ...yeah we were fortunate not to have anybody injured out of
124 people.
Manders: What kind of liability do you have? Do they sign a waiver?
Ruegemer:
Right, yeah...
Hoffman:
reasonable
we're in a
negligent.
It doesn't mean a thing but again, the parents, it's a
position to take that they're accepting the liability and if
lawsuit, we're not going to get dragged down. Unless we are
It's something that we have done.
Ruegemer: I did get injured. I was the only o~e that did get injured"..
WINTER PROGRAM UPDATE.
Koubsky: Is the Kids Club only running after school?
Lemme: Yes.
Koubsky: That's with the 11 kids? How are we doing with that? Are we
planning on continuing that?
-"
Lemme: .. .discussion right now with Community Education. ..at Chanhassen.
Right now at Jonathan in the morning and afternoon.
Andrews: For school aged child care?
Lemme: Yes.
Hoffman: That will probably supercede this program. When they come up
here and then we would offer alternate recreation. Then that program
could partake in a special weekly...
Berg: Is it pretty likely that that's going to happen?
Hoffman: All indications are at this time yes. Most other school
districts in the metropolitan area certainly have it. District 112 has
slowly in coming up to the ranks but school aged child care is a
necessity. My opinion is I'll be using it in a couple years and so will a
lot of other people.
Lemme...were interested in morning and afternoon...
Hoffman: This was a fill in program that was never intended to replace
school aged child care. All conversations with the district last year
said we are wide open to work with you in that regard. We will be ~
attending, the Park and Rec staff will be attending an upcoming meeting I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~. February 23, 1993 - Page 55
think next week. That letter, in this regard. With the School Districti
ENTERTAINMENT COMPLEX.
Hoffman: A verbal update of what is occurring there. The whole scenario
was discussed at some length at a goal session with the City Council on a
Saturday a few weeks back. 3 weeks back. At that time the new Council
members wanted to take a step back. Get up to speed on this process.
Everyone knows that the HRA has money available to spend back there. To
do something with that ugly looking area if you will of downtown
Chanhassen. But it's to be a consensus building process. That needs to
include the community so at the current time, the Mayor has kicked that
process off with his letter in the upcoming brochure which says, here's
the thought process. We want to hear from the residents on what you think
about revitalizing the back yard of Chanhassen Dinner Theatre. Proposals
include x, x and x. What do you think? And then there will probably be
about a 6 month process of visioning, bringing in community groups.
Talking about what that should be. What it shouldn't bei Should it be a
recreation center solely? Should it include the convention type
business? What should happen to the bowling alley? Those types of
questions. Certainly not a dead issue. As the commissioners recall from
the meeting with the Planning Commission, the recreation component came
out a winner and that continues to be the same case today. So I'm
confident that we will have some type of recreation component back there
~. but much more discussion is to come. Are there any specific questions in
that regard?
UPCOMING CITY COUNCIL/PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION GOALS MEETING.
Hoffman: I don't have a date for you as of yet but the City Council has
made it their policy on an annual basis to meet with each commission
formally one time. That will most likely take place in the months of
March or April.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS:
Roeser: I've got one thing. Do all of you know Al Klingelhutz? Just
retired Commissioner. He was Mayor of Chanhassen all that while. For
starters he's my brother-in-law so I probably shouldn't even do this but
he, and also politically we're like Bush and Wellstone so you don't have
to worry. I'm not doing this for political reasons. But I'm thinking
that we've got to dedicate or name that Pavillion out at Lake Ann. If you
ask Al about the proudest thing he did when he was Mayor, was acquiring
that property. You know and I was thinking maybe that we could consider
naming that the Al H. Klingelhutz Pavillion or something like that. Just
because he is retiring from politics generally. It's just a suggestion.
Schroers: It's a good thought.
Hoffman: It certainly is. Dedicating that building to an individual has
never been brought up before so it certainly can be discussed. There is
~ one plaque which has already been applied to the building which states the
Council under which it was developed and built and those types of things.
Park ~nd Rec Commission Meeting
February 23, 1993 - Page 56
...".,
Roeser: I just thought because he was Mayor when that property was
acquired, he worked really hard to do that and get it. So it's something
I think you should think about and maybe talk about it next time or
something.
Hoffman: Okay.
WORK SESSION. RECREATION SECTION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
Hoffman: Any other Commission member presentations? You have a few
moments because we're not going to tackle 11.
Lash: I just wanted to say...
Andrews: Just as a side note here about item 11 here. I don't know how,
it seems like our calendars have started to fill up again with developers
trying to move things up here for spring and summer. Maybe we need to
consider the off Tuesday as our work session and only have just this item
to work on because these things are running awful late.
Hoffman: That's not a bad idea.
Lash: I'd like that...put on there proposed in big letter so they can't
come back and.
Hoffman: Very key. Well it should be titled proposed. They were titled
master plan.
--"
Lash: And maybe when people come in with their building permits and come
and check to see...they need to know that it's not...
Hoffman: You bet. Very good point. So is there a consensus that we'll
accept the second Tuesday in March as a special meeting to discuss the
recreation section of the comprehensive plan? Tuesday, March...
Manders: The second Tuesday is the 9th.
Ruegemer: There's a meeting in here that night. Oh, that's at 7:00. We
can move.
Schroers: For a work session you don't have to have a quorum. We're not
making formal recommendations of any kind.
Hoffman: Is there two that can't make it? Do you want to try it for
another night for the benefit of tho~e?
Lash: How about the third one?
Manders: The 16th would be fine.
Andrews: It doesn't matter to me.
Berg: I don't have my schedule here anyway so one's as good as the other. ...."",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
,..... February 23, 1993 - Page 57
Hoffman: I have a baby due there on March 10th so, you can never tell
with me.
AndTews: Do we have a date? What's it going to be the 9th or the 16th?
Hoffman: The 9th. That leaves more time because the second meeting is
going to be as you see on your schedule, that's going to be an asterick.
When we set the decisions which you made on your work session. Set those
in stone and go on to task 2.
Andrews: When would Mark make himself available? Would it be for a work
session?
Hoffman: He'll be at all the future meetings.
Lash: How about March 1st?
Manders: That's next Monday. I couldn't make that.
Berg: I couldn't make that one either.
Hoffman: The 9th or the 16th? It doesn't matter.
Andrews: We can do better on the 16th.
,.....
Schroers: Can you put onto that work session also, well I guess we may
have to do that formally but that tennis court thing. I donit think we
have to get into spending a whole night on that tennis court thing, I
think we can do that in about 5 minutes.
Berg: I think we're all in agreement on that.
Schroers: As a matter of fact, if you want to do it right now, we can do
it right now.
Andrews moved, Berg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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