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PRC 1993 03 23 ,.... CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MARCH 23, 1993 Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:33 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Larry Schroers, Jim Andrews, Ron Roeser, Jim Manders, and Fred Berg MEMBERS ABSENT: Dave Koubsky STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Program Specialist APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash moved, Berg seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated February 23, 1993 as amended on page 8, changing comments attributed to Manders to Roeser; on page 9 and 10, changing comments attributed to Roeser to Berg; and on page 12, changing comments attributed to Manders to Berg. All voted in favor of the Minutes as amended and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. ;t1fI""'. LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT. PRAIRIE CREEK TOWNHOMES. (Todd Hoffman made a presentation that wasn't picked up on the tape. There are also various times during the meeting when a microphone was not close enough for his comments to be picked up.) Schroers: At this point the Commission would be interested in hearing anything that residents may have to say regarding this development. If you care to speak, please come to the podium and state your name and address for us. Andrew Olson: My name is Andrew Olson. I live on West Lake Court immediately behind the parkland. The southern most part of the parkland, by that townhome development. The town home development has been tabled for now because of density questions and also questions were raised regarding the settlement ponds for the runoff of the town home project and other waters that COme through there. We also have the creek that comes through there and my question is, how big a settlement pond we put on parkland and what will happen to that water when they widened CR 17. They want a regional pond in there they said but nobody has any definite plans as to what they want to do to get the water from here to there to someplace else because the creek is back there and they can't cross the creek, unless they put their huge pond directly behind there on the parkland. So my question would be, who's got the definite plan of what's going to happen there? Otherwise if it's open ended, it's well we'll take care of it once we get things built. It will be here and then we'll take care of it later and then you've got something existing and you have to ~ add to it or subtract from it and modify it, do whatever down the road, and it's going to be a lot more problems. But it's the preservation of the creek that is my primary concern. Leaving it as is and without damaging it and I do realize we need settlement and something has to be Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 2 -' done with runoff water. We can't let that dump in the creek and into Lake Susan. But I'd like to see something concrete written down first so I know it's going to work. Thank you. Schroers: Thank you. In response to that I think that for real specific information regarding what you're asking would be the Planning Department or City Engineer could probably provide you with more accurate information on that than we could. Hoffman: I can respond to that... Schroers: Okay, thank you. Are there any more comments from residents concerns about this development? For the benefit of some of the newer members on our Commission. Some time ago we had developers routinely coming in and trying to give us ponding as part of park property and we found that in most instances not to accommodate our needs so that is not a practice of ours to acquire ponding in lieu of park fees so that's something that'the developer needs to work out with the Planning and Engineering and all that sort of thing. It's very, it's not that common where we're going to take the ponding and include that in part of our dedication process. Basically we end up with the pond that serves very little in the way of our park recreatjonal needs. Occasionally, if it happens to fit in to a, what we would call a passive use park, we could be a workable situation but generally it's not. Okay. And this proposal, agenda item 3 requires no formal action on our part this evening. -'" Hoffman: Correct. This simply notifies you that staff is carrying out the directives of the PUD agreement as they were formulated. However, as you know in the 9th Addition of this proposed development, which is being submitted under separate applicants, there is many questions being raised about the validity of that PUD so he did in fact want to change anything that had related to parks and recreation and trails. You certainly have that opportunity. I don't see the desire to do so. Schroers: Okay. Well I'd like to thank staff for the information on this and also for the residents bringing their concerns to our attention and we'll keep an eye on it. As it develops, it will keep coming back to us to get figured out, or a new proposal I should say. APPROVE PURCHASE OF PLAY EQUIPMENT. SUNSET RIDGE PARK. PHASE II. Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers and Commission members. The 1993 Park Acquisition and Development CIP included $14,000.00 for the acquisition of play equipment at Sunset Ridge Park. Specifically, that is going to be Phase II of that piece of equipment. The first phase was purchased from Landscape Structures through Earl F. Anderson. I requested that Dave Owen, our representative from EFA prepare a proposal for the purchase of that equipment. Phase II was originally drawn in the original concept so it was very easy to make a proposal to the City. One thing that I did need to make cleaT to Mr. Owen. That it is the City's desire to comply with all the American with Disabilities, ADA and u.S. Consumer ~ Safety Product Commission playground guidelines, safety guidelines as we go through this process. As you know we are federally mandated so in " Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 3 regard to ADA, in regard to CPSC guidelines, those are standards which are recognized throughout the nation. The proposal submitted dated March 6th contains an addition to the play booster play structure. The items necessary to insure compliance with those Acts and guidelines. You noted the error there. Minor correction. Unfortunately this added equipment and then we add on almost $1,000.00 in sales tax and $315.00 in freight, that left us just $2,200.00 over budget. To correct this overage I asked Mr. Owen to amend the proposal. We discussed a number of alternatives. What seems to work best, similar to what we did at Lake Susan Comm4nity Park, is to omit the track ride, the deck and poles associated with that and the sales tax and freight due on that item. That would cut $2,484.55. Thus the associated costs and the cost associated with the remaining equipment would be under the $14,000.00 or $13,769.13. Approval of the purchase of the equipment and supplies as presented minus the track ride is recommended. I'll quickly run through the proposal for you so you can create a visual in your mind. Lash: Which page are we supposed to be looking at here? Hoffman: Which page? Lash: Yeah. There's so many different drawings here, I'm not sure which one is the actual thing. Or are they all the same? ,..... Hoffman: They're somewhat similar...they're pretty much all the same. First or second ones... (Todd Hoffman stepped away from the microphone to give his presentation.) Schroers: It appears to me, and everybody can get an equal crack at this, but I feel that, whoever did this work, staff aiong with E.F. Anderson, did the best thing. The track ride would be a nice amenity to have but by having that omitted it's going to be less of an impact on Phase II than any other part of the component I think. I mean that sticks out to the side. It doesn't break up the scheme of things and the complex is still pretty much intact. Hoffman: It's very easy to... Lash: Can you walk us through what these things are? Sometimes it's hard to tell. It's the monkey bars right? That's the curly things. They don't call them monkey bars anymore, but whatever. Hoffman: The horizontal ladder? Lash: Yeah, that's it. Okay, and then what? What are those little square things? Hoffman. . . ~ Lash: That's the rings? Hoffman... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 4 ....",;I Lash: So these little square things, are those like the little different level things that they step onto? Hoffman: Yeah, the decks? Lash: Yeah. Those are decks, okay. Hoffman: They come across... Roeser: What happens to the equipment that you remove? Where does it go? Does EFA take that back? Hoffman: Off of this... Lash: Well I like this plan too but I'm disappointed that we're not getting the track ride I guess. And did you say we did not at Lake Susan too? So we don't have it at Lake Susan? I thought we did. I guess I'd like to try and figure out a way sometime in the future of getting one in one or the other of the places. Maybe Lake Susan would be better. It probably would get more use. But that's really a fun thing and it's more for a little bit bigger kids, and a lot of times some of this play stuff is not that challenging for kids who are 7, 8, 9, 10 years old. But the track ride is still fun. I'm always a strong proponent for upper body strength for kids because a lot of them are really lacking in that department and the track ride provides that. So I know it is an expensive component but I'd like to see it sometime in one or the other so I know if we can budget it some year. .."" Berg: There's nothing that precludes our putting it in later is there? Lash: At Lake Susan too? Hoffman... Andrews: ...these rules changing about separations and. Hoffman: The CPSC guidelines... Roeser: Is that why they changed this, because of litigation? I mean if it was safe 10 years ago, why isn't it safe today? Hoffman: Well it has a lot to do with... Lash: That was, I was going to say I'm feeling a little frustrated when I think of what we used to get for $14,000.00 and it's not the difference in the price of the equipment but having to have all this extra timbers and pea rock really screws up our budget. When you look at this for $14,000.00, we're getting some monkey bars, or whatever they call them now, and two slides and some decks and two climbers. Schroers: It's really unfortunate but it's consistent with what's happening allover the marketplace. I mean $10,000.00 doesn't buy the car that it did 10 'years ago either. So it's kind of the wave of the future. I think that these component structures are nice that you can add onto but I think realistically we need to keep in mind that very seldom do we find ...", JI"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 5 ourselves in a position where we've got an extra $5,000.00 or $10,000.00 and say hey, let's throw on a track slide. So it's a possibility but. .Roeser: I have two questions. existing structures out there. regulations? One is really to retrofitting. We've got Do they all meet guidelines and Hoffman: No. Roeser: Is there money needed to refit those too? Hoffman: They do not and... Roeser: swing. And the other question relates to the three swing and the tire Are you moving those or are you? Hoffman: They're in place right now... Roeser: So this is the intention to separate it like you've got it? Hoffman: Correct. . . ,... Schroers: So basically what we've got here is the plan is intact as it's proposed there with the elimination of the, what do you call it? Lash: Track ride. Schroers: Track ride. Hoffman. . . Andrews: I'd like to move that we accept this recommendation, staff recommendation for Sunset Ridge Park, Phase II as proposed. Schroers: Is there a second? Manders: Second. Schroers: Any further discussion of that? Andrews moved, Manders seconded to approve the purchase of the playground equipment and supplies minus the track ride for Sunset Ridge Park, Phase II. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Can you try and remind us next time when we work on the budget, to try and budget one of those in? Andrews: Lake Susan would make sense. ESTABLISH AGREEMENT FOR VENDING PRIVILEGES IN CITY PARKS. NON-PROFIT ,... ORGANIZATIONS. Hoffman: Chairman Schroers and Commission members. As you are aware, many times throughout the year we have non-profit organizations, the Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 6 ...."" Rotary, Lions, those types of groups, trying to help out with many events, special events. Specifically the big ones are the 4th of July and the Septemberfest. We have another...this year in that the Athletic Association made a request to the Department to operate concessions at the little concession building at the ballfields at Lake Ann for a revenue source. The City does not have a policy. It doesn't have to be much of a policy but it certainly has to be something to start from which explains what the city needs to raport come back to these groups for costs which are associated with the operation of these park shelter buildings or these events...come up with at least a standard to start from. As stated, some of the organizations do take it upon themselves to make a contribution back to the city so in essence they're supporting...activities through their organizations but then they also choose to support the community events through...back into the funds which are used to put on those celebrations. However that's not consistent...staff is recommending that a minimum contribution level of 15% of gross proceeds from all sales be established. That is open toa debate and discussion this evening. I think if I can, you have the dollar amounts we're talking about typically. When the Rotary comes in for a 4th of July celebration, they may gross somewhere in the area of $5,000.00 and above for those 3 days. Obviously their biggest seller is the beverage, specifically the beer garden... picnic up here at City Center Park. September fest is somewhat smaller than that but in something in the nature of $3,000.00 is not unheard of. I cannot forecast what the Athletic Association will generate in revenues but they'll be operating 5 nights a week for 2 1/2 to 2 months at Lake Ann. And the reason for recouping costs would be we maintain the ~ concession building at Lake Ann. We pay for the phone. We pay for the electricity. Those type of things. They'll be using the building. Those costs. Simiarily with the special events, the City leases the tents, administers the program, does all the advertising of the celebration and those types of activities. However it does come down to a philosophy issue. I mean if the Commission feels so strongly in non-profit, charitable organizations that you feel it's worthy that the City support their activities and "subsidize" them if you will, for these activities, then I'd be interested to hear your remarks on that area as well. So Chairman, it is up for discussion and upon reaching a concensus we will mail informational letter to the organizations who we work with informing them of your decision and action this evening. ' Schroers: Okay, thank you Todd. Why don't, let's start with Fred and come right down the line here and everyone will have a turn to voice their opinion. Berg: I guess at this point I'm open to go either way. I thought that 15% sounded like a good idea, then I started thinking. These are going to be open anyway right? I mean if CAA doesn't run the concession stand, who would? Hoffman: Well the City, we had talked about it at the staff level. Once we start operating the large concession building, we thought for economics to scale, it would be very easy for us to go up and operate the other one. But if the Athletic Association would like to do that, we'll allow them to. This would be the first year that the one at the ballfields would be operated. ~ "" ,.... I""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 7 Berg: Yeah, like I said. I'm open to listening to all sides. I guess right now I'm leaning towards no charge with the idea that they're open. They're going to be open anyway. And true, we pay the money for the tents for the celebrations and whatever, but somebody's got to be running them. They're going to be selling the beer at the 4th of July and Septemberfest. It's not like they're taking the money and turning it into a profit someplace. I've first hand seen what some of these service organizations do with their money and we all know that it goes for good causes. So I don't know that it's not a bad idea to let them have it. Not charge them at all. Roeser: I guess I would follow that same line of thinking. A lot of these organizations contribute back to the City so it's like taking it out of one pocket and putting it back in the other. If these organizations are spending it completely outside of the city, I guess that's a different story but I think most of them contribute back. I guess I'm still open either way. Andrews: Well I have a number of concerns. I guess I look at the question before us is really being divided and that would be between special events, which are basically one weekend or one day for instance versus an ongoing operation, which the CAA might have. Some of my concerns would be who really is responsible in sponsoring these organizations if somebody were to claim injury from what they were served or what...they bought, who is responsible for it. I don't know how the city handles that now. If they require insurance or if the City would be held responsible for a hot dog that had something inside of it that the CAA might serve or something like that. I guess I think the special events probably don't need to have a fee charged. I look at those as something that are easily controlled and I think they really are very much dedicated and easy to manage but I think an ongoing operation, I think it should either be some sort of a license or a fee or a percentage because we have more exposure and I think it's something we just need to keep more df a handle on what they're doing. So we know who's responsible and we can monitor the operation. Have some control over it from year to year. Manders: At first I thought the 15% idea was good too because of the same thing. The City is covering the insurance and in the event that things could happen. We should probably get...they still cost the city money. For someone to supervise it. For someone to be responsible for it. I don't know. It's hard to say. I really don't know what's the best way to go. Schroers: Who's operating budget does it come out of? Does that come directly out of Park and Rec? Hoffman: For special events? Park and Recreation 145. On sole supporting recreation programs comes out of 146... Special events are obviously they're gaining size in the city. The 4th of July costs over $15,000.00 annually to put on. The Department has implemented a sponsorship program which we're seeking corporate sponsors. Business sponsors and individual sponsors. Those being business people at three levels as the bronze, silver and gold level. Those letters went out to some of our largest corporations. We received the first response back Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 8 -' from Instant Webb Companies. Instant Webb, United Mailing...and they pledged at the $1,000.00 level for a year which then makes them a sponsor for the 4th of July, 5eptemberfest, Easter and the Halloween program. In an attempt to recoup some costs to put these special events on... Lash: I don't know. It sounds like we all can go either way. I guess I don't have strong feelings either. I'm glad I was last. But I think if it is, if there are some out of pocket expenses involved from the city, I guess I don't have a problem with trying to at least recoup those costs. But I guess I would be interested in finding out a little bit more about how much that costs us and if we're in this to make extra money or just to break even. And I liked Jim's comments about the ongoing, the CAA. I look at the CAA as a wonderful thing for our community but the money that they would make from this ongoing thing would just be for CAA, I would assume whereas the Rotary and the Lions and the Jaycees would fund a lot of different community things. 50 if we were to charge them a feel guess I'd be interested in earmarking that maybe to a fund or maybe even all of them to a fund. Maybe for Bandimere or something. CAA would definitely benefit and if we said to them, you can do the concessions all summer. We're goi.ng to take 15% or 20% and we're going to put that into a fund for a youth facility and help us to get going on that. I don't think that they would have too much of an objection to that. And we are providing the maintenance for the building. We're providing the clean-up of the garbage afterwards and emptying all the garbage cans that are full of all the cups and all of that and so I can see recouping some of our costs. Do you think 15% is covering our costs or do you think that's actually making ~ a profit? Hoffman: It's nowhere near covering our costs. Roeser: Have you discussed it with any of those people? Have you talked to. . .CAA? Hoffman: We discussed, over the past years I've attempted to instill in these groups that it would be nice to see some money back. It started out that they would send back some fairly healthy contributions. $300.00, $400.00, $500.00. Then things began to reduce down. It got to be a chiving match where I'd kid them that you know, I haven't seen your contribution for this year. That type of thing. I spoke with Mayor Chmiel this afternoon. He is a member of the Rotary and they have a problem with, we talked over the agenda briefly. He didn't seem to have a problem with this but he thought maybe 20% might be... Again, we're not, if the Rotary would have a banner year and let's say they grossed $8,000.00 on a 4th of July celebration. If you took 15%, you'd be taking $1,600.00 of that. The celebration costs...so you're not making money. Lash: No, I mean just for what they are, the costs that they're generating for us. Like the tent rental and the electricity and those types of things. Hoffman: You, at $1,800.00... Roeser: That would be the total of what you get from everybody? Not just from the Rotary. ....,., ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 9 Hoffman: Well that would be, the Rotary sponsors the 4th of July, celebration. The other organizations are involved in a minor way but that would be by far the biggest event which any organization makes money at. But to be known what the CAA does, they're very limited in their scope of products. They can sell packaged food, candy bars, pop and those type of things. Berg: Do we designate what we want to do with that 15% or 20%? Do we turn it to, for example to play equipment so that Lake Susan and some of these other places we're talking about don't have to take a hit on some of this equipment? Hoffman: It comes down to a matter of accounting at that level. I believe if I went and...the City Manager and the Planning Department, they would say for us to go through the accounting procedures to set up a special fund to dedicate let's say a total of $4,000.00 a year to this budget as part of your CIP. I'm confident you would receive that type of reaction. It's not to say that I could coerce them into doing that. ,..... Andrews: You could certainly know what our revenues were and then on our own budget a similar amount to a project that'd be of interest to those in the community. I also am cautious about designating money to any program because aren't these constantly changed and I don't want to be in a situation where we don't have the flexibility we might want later because we use the money as we saw fit at the time. Plus you also create sort of expectation that if they quit using the facility, that they have some say so in control over that money which they really don't. Then they expect it to be used for a ballfield when in fact we decide that putting up a backstop at some other field... The more we talk about this, and I tend to be more strong on the revenue side. I kind of think we ought to look at this as a way to defer some of the cost. And also it would allow us or give us the ability to enhance the program you're already offering by helping us defer cost and to then further expand programs. Lash: Or at least maintain it each year. I mean just the free food alone is a drawing card for people and how long are we going to be able to continue doing that? Hoffman: The HRA has funded that free community picnic. I haven't approached them as of yet for this year but if it ever begins to wane, then we'd need to turn to a Festival Foods. Andrews: Certainly something we could revisit too if we find that goes... Hoffman: It's on that. Put some thought into how to base these. Should we do it per event? Per organization? Per membership? Different rates for food and beverage. It comes down to a flat fee...how much they grossed. . . Berg: I guess a point could be made too for the fact that if we would ~ take 20%, the CAA is still getting 80% more than they got last year. They're still making more money doing this than they had last year by not doing it. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 10 ......,. Schroers: Well I think everyone has pretty much covered it. Jim shared some of the concerns that I had in that who would be held accountable for these vendors in the parks. I guess I don't know that that would, we've got a real definitive answer on that. Andrews: I think th~ answer is everybody. That's what happens. I do think it's something we do need a little bit of control over. What's going on just to help us a little bit to have some information about what they're doing and how they're doing it. Schroers: And a question that I have regarding the concession at the ballfields. Were CAA to run that, is that going to be something that is open as the park is open to accommodate the active use schedule out at the park or when the ballfields are being used? For just the evening games like from 5:30 until 9:00. Hoffman: Just evening games. Something like that. 5:30 to 8:30 or 9:00. Schroers: So like 5 nights a week? Hoffman: Correct. Schroers: So it's something that they're going to have to take seriously and they're going to have to be dependable and I like th~ idea of being able to charge a fee and imprinting on these vendors that we are the controlling group and that they are going to need to be responsible and that they're going to have to report to staff so we can insure that the service they're delivering is up to standards. The bottom line is, it appears again that staff has taken this item to task and done a good job on it. I think the 15% is at least fair and reasonable and I'd be willing to entertain a motion to that end. I do agree that we should have a charge. ....", Andrews: I'll move that we accept staff's recommendation that a 15% fee be charged for vending privileges at city parks, is that all I need to say. Schroers: 15% of gross proceeds from vendor sales. Andrews: Correct. Schroers: Okay, is there a second to that motion? Andrews: I want to make a point that I did not specify profit or non-profit. If there's a profit making entity that comes up there, they should be charged too. Hoffman: Oh, but I think we'd charge them 35%. If we were approached by a private vendor who wanted to sell ice cream or a speciality product at one of our festivals, we certainly wouldn't let them off the hook for the same percentage. It's been out policy not to incorporate that to date. We're bombarded by private vendors who want to drive through Lake Ann Park ~ or ask you to buy their ice cream out of their vending truck. We simply deny all those requests. 1""". Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 11 Schroers: Okay then, is there a second to the motion? Manders: I'll second it. Andrews moved, Manders seconded to establish an agreement for vending privileges in city parks. that a minimum contribution level of 15% of gross proceeds from all sales. All voted in favor. except Berg who opposed. and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1. Schroers: I think we'd like to ask staff, if the other commissioners are in agreement, to monitor the CAA or whoever to make sure that they are doing a service out there, because as we all know, evening softball groups can be pretty vocal and demanding and they're going to, basically the building that sat there without being used now for 3 years and then when we finally do open it up, we want to be able to put our best foot 'forward and not open the doors to a bunch of criticism. So I think CAA, or whoever runs that concession has to know that we're going to expect an upbeat situation. Hoffman: I clarified that in the letter that went out. I ran this by the Legion. The Commander, Ozzie Chaterdon. That they were the organization who financed the construction of that building. At the time it was under the premise that they would be operating concessions out there and that ~ type of thing. Their interest has waned. Fallen by the wayside but I needed to run this by them anyway. I wanted to get their opinion as to what they, if they thought the City should operate it. If they preferred the Athletic Association operate them. I stated clearly that it doesn't matter either way just as long as a quality, dependable product is delivered...If they begin to have problems with scheduling, because obviously they're going to be scheduling volunteers, 5 nights a we~k is going to be difficult for them to do that. If they begin to find that the effort is more than the payback, they may drop out of the program... Schroers: And at that point, if that were the situation, staff could take UP and staff it, beyond existing programming. You'd have to probably hire a couple more part-time attendants and then increase supplies to facilitate the extra... Lash: On Jim Andrews' comments earlier about liability. Ultimately is the City responsible for that if someone gets food poisoning? Hoffman: Again, I would need to ask the City Attorney to respond in full. The Athletic Association as the other organization will be required to carry some form of insurance for this event. If a situation to such a degree happened out there where the damages would be huge, they would be the Athletic Association, the City...so again, it really doesn't matter. The City Attorney has often said that we don't program your parks or your recreational facilities in fear of liability. No matter what you do, no matter who does it, as long as you're responsible in how you administer it, there are unforeseen things which are going to happen. ,..., Lash: I just wondered if by getting a percentage of this, this would then pull us more into it if a problem did. Park and Rec commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 12 ..."" Hoffman: I don't think .it would. Lash: So it wouldn't be worth the 15%. Andrews: My job is in this area. I would say it makes absolutely no di fference. . . schroers: I think this whole situation.is scarey. Staff does such a good job that we're almost unneeded. We're going to lose our jobs. Hoffman: Not true Larry. Not true. Schroers: Okay, we'll move on then to item 6. ESTABLISH SENIOR CENTER RENTAL POLICY AND FEES. Lemme: Chairman and Commissioners, this is another fee establishing policy. It seems like we're kind of covering a lot of these lately. Recently the Senior Center has become more used and as such more people have seen the center and see what a nice facility it is and I've had, recently I've had a request probably monthly to rent the facility. People don't even call to ask if they can borrow it. They Just want to rent it. Individuals for bridal showers or someone has called, they want to use it for a family reunion or after for a confirmation party. Things like that. Currently if any community groups want to use the center, they're able to use it for free. The Rotary club recently had a meeting in there. Anyone else who is interested, the Knights of Columbus meet in the center once a month. And because the center basically, everything that's run out of there for the seniors is done for free or it's a self supporting program. I thought I would bring it to your attention and to Todd's to see if we could establish some sort of a rental policy for the room. Other city spaces such as the Council chambers or the old Village Hall, there is no fee to use them. But it's mostly community groups that ask anyway for city type functions. As I said, because this is really the only facility that we have or room that you have a kitchen and that kind of. thing. I think I'm going to be getting more requests as time goes by. I did call the City of Chaska to find out what they rented their, they have a wet and a dry craft room that they use for parties. A little bit smaller in size. Definitely not as nice. They charge $10.00 an hour straight across the board. It doesn't matter if you're a resident or non-resident. I established a fee of $10.00 for a resident, $15.00 for non-residents per hour. and basically running the same as how we do our picnic reservation or rentals. We charge groups that have less than 50% of the people attending as Chanhassen residents, we charge them more than we do of people that have 50% or more. -' Lash: How do you find that out? Lemme: Excuse me? Lash: How do you find that out? Lemme: It's really a good faith statement. ....", ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 13 Ruegemer: Honesty policy. Lemme: When people call you usually just ask them. Are 50% Chanhassen residents and usually they'll be honest with you. Hoffman: The CSO's will do a spot check. Lemme: Checking ID's. Schroers: I have considerable experience with rental facilities of this nature and the first question that I have for you is that if a private group for a bridal shower or whatever obtains the use of the facility, who's responsible for the clean-up and maintenance afterwards? Is additional maintenance and clean-up required above what, there certainly would be additional maintenance and clean-up required above and beyond what's normally done. Who does that? ,"""" Lemme: We do have, most of these requests...the weekday evenings. I did have someone who used the center last weekend and they're just going to be making a donation back to the center because we didn't have any fees established. It was one of the seniors who lives in the community and she had a small group in there and she does a lot of volunteer work at the center, and basically we gave the key out to them. We provided the bags and they returned the place back to exactly what it was like prior to me leaving on Friday. You know in the rules we just say that they're responsible for clean-up and return the center to original order. I guess we would provide the sponges and some of the materials for cleaning up. They would have to bring in their own coffee pot and that. We could possibly establish some fees if they want to rent our coffee pot for $5.00 for the time. That's something I would think though that the custodial staff would probably have a little bit extra work. It's just a matter. Schroers: Okay, but they would assume that as a normal part of their duties. Some additional clean-up as a result. Also, when you have groups coming in for that sort of thing, are there tables and chairs and that things that they can set up in different arrangements to accommodate their needs? Lemme: All the tables and chairs are in there and there's really no place to put them or to move them. So if someone wants an open space, they're basically restricted to just pushing the tables back to the side. And if they do that, they just would have to return them back to their original order but there's not a lot of space for bringing anything additional in at this time. $chroers: Okay. Well everyone will have their chance on this but I think that a damage deposit is definitely somet~ing that should be involved and the rates could be however you want. If you want to charge by the hour or that sort of thing. That's one way but it's a little more complicated. You could also just set up the rates for the rental fee for a resident as ,.... $50.00 for 4 hours. And then non-resident, it could be $75.00 for 4 hours and that's very reasonable. I think that there's an awful lot of interest in renting space. People do not seem to have a problem to pay for renting space and that's consistent in the industry so I don't have a problem at Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 14 --"" all with renting it but I think it's real important to have a fairly sizeable damage deposit, like $150.00 or something like that. Returnable when, after staff or whoever has seen that the place is left in a somewhat reasonable condition. If a lot of extraordinary clean-up has to take place, you may only return part of the damage deposit. Hoffman: Cleaning of the center is under a contract so if the carpet is twice as dirty as it is today, they're not going to raise their contract amount. We'll get the same service for the same buck. Andrews: I like your idea Larry with the $50.00 for 4 hours, $75.00 for 4 hours for resident versus non-resident. I think it's a lot more, it's easier to administer plus it'd be pretty hard for us to justify renting it to somebody for an hour for $10.00. By the time you get involved with all the Mickey Mousing around with the reservations and the deposits and everything else, how could you possibly book something on either side of that anyway. So I think it makes it easier to administer. When somebody needs it for all day, they can pay $100.00. If somebody needs a room of that size all day, I think $100.00 will not be a problem. Schroers: Hourly is not nearly as workable for rental space as by the half day or by the day because otherwise you have groups overlapping. One trying to come in as another one's going out. Lash: When you said you want to continue to allow community groups, like are you talking about Scouts and those kinds of things? You're just talking about if somebody wants to have a private? -' Lemme:' Right. Lash: Okay. What if it was like a neighborhood or an association or something and they wanted to have a meeting. Andrews: There's a difference between meetings and parties which is kind of confusing to me. Lemme: I'd ask for directions on that. We don't charge them now if they ask. Lash: How about a birthday party? I know I had a birthday community center for my son and used the room for an hour. willing to go and pay $10.00 for a birthday party. I'm not and spend $50.00 for a birthday party.' party at the Now I'm willing to go Lemme: There would definitely be a charge for something like that. That's I guess why I had proposed the hourly fee. But we could go 2 hours or less. we could say a fee. 3 to 4 hours or something like that too. I had proposed $100.00 damage deposit and provided no damage is done to the site, they would get that back in full. Do you think that is too low? Andrews: I think that a group that really made a big mess and decided to walk away from that $100.00... -' ,.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 15 Schroers: My custodian would like to see a $500.00 fee for birthday parties. I mean they are the worst. These little kids with all this sticky crap allover the place. It ends up on the floor... Lash: Why do you think people go and rent rooms for it. Schroers: Well exactly. Lemme: That's why we have a Birthday Bonanza. Schroers: We're talking about the same thing, so it depends on which end you're on. Hoffman: And maybe the 4 hour timeframe will eliminate some of those undesireable hour type uses which make that mess. Andrews: If yOU' had an hour rental or you could rent it out again. What we're saying is staff would have to come and inspect it and make sure it's clean before you could rent it to the next party anyway. I just don't see that that would be very workable. I think at least a 3 or 4 hour time limit so it's worth staff's time and money, cost of labor to come and check it out inbetween uses. 1""'. Berg: How often are the seniors using this facility? Lemme: They're generally there during the weekdays. We've just started now once every, once a month on a Saturday evening having some type of activity. And then I use the facility on Saturdays or Birthday Bonanza parties which are birthday parties that I have staff at that actually run. For April almost every single Saturday is booked for some mornings and afternoons. So there aren't going to be as many spots. I had a request for 4th of July weekend. You know they wanted it for a family reunion. But the seniors generally just use it during the week. I did bring this to the attention of our Senior Advisory Board and they felt real comfortable with it, which is a change from the past because before they didn't want anyone touching that building unless it was the senior citizens. Schroers: Any other discussion? If not I'd be willing to make a motion that we charge a $50.00 per 4 hour resident rate and $75.00 per 4 hour non-resident rate for renting the Senior Center for private gatherings. Andrews: Damage deposit? Schroers: Damage deposit of $150.00 to be returned upon staff's approval that the facilities were respected. Lemme: Was there a different fee for over 4 hours did you say? Schroers: If they wanted it for 8 hours, just double it. $50.00 for 4 ,... hours, $100.00 for 8 hours. Hoffman: I think it might be worthwhile to talk about the variety of uses which may arise and if you want to omit any of those. If you want to have Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 16 --" a 8 hour Dean Whitter seminar in this building on a Saturday. Do you mind if it's a community service that's generating money? Neighborhood organizations with their neighborhood meetings. They use the atrium room. They use this room free of charge. Is that something we want to welcome into the senior center? The issue is that it's a much nicer space than some of these others so people are going to be drawn to it. So if we start having Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and 4H a"d neighborhood meetings, you may be getting many, many more requests to use the senior center for those public type of meetings than other areas throughout the city. Andrews: You're concerned about them being charged a fee when they maybe ought not to be? Hoffman: No. I don't think. Lash: Concerned with too many free ones going in that could use other spaces. Hoffman: We may end up to that. Maybe if we just try to direct them to . other spaces which are currently used. It's much easier to use this portion of the building because it's open until the wee hours of the evening, or the other senior center...maybe if nothing else was available we could offer them the senior center. What to do if we start getting requests from non-profit groups. Lash: Maybe we just need to go with it and review it in a few months to ~ see what's happening. Andrews: You know in Hennepin County I've had a chance to work with Larry on a few things...and it's at the discretion of the building manager I guess who pays fees and who comes under non-profit, no fee. They ask a lot of questions and had us justify our request for no charge and I think that's the best way to handle it. Use your best judgment and if it becomes a problem, we can set some guidelines later as to who ~hould qualify or who prioritizes and go from there. Berg: Do it in 6 months. Andrews: I would like to second the motion. Schroers: Oh okay. Just a little further discussion on that. What we're talking about here is renting it to private groups. I mean not groups affiliated with th~ city. We're not talking about the groups who would use it for free. This motion is just for the rental of the space and when you have a space that you are renting, generating funds from, you would give that priority over a non-profit organization using it. If you have the space rented out for $100.00 and a non-profit comes and would want it for the same timeframe, I think priorities would be given to bringing in revenue, especially if there were other spaces that they could use. Andrews: I agree. Lash: I'm lost. Okay, now I'm going to'throw a thing out.. Okay. so what ....,,; if it's a group of residents or some community function that wants to use ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23. 1993 - Page 17 it and then you have a group of non-residents who are willing to pay $50.00 or $100.00. I feel like if you're a resident you should have first crack at it. Hoffman: First come. first serve. Whoever calls first. Schroers: It's on first serve. If they have it, take the money and bring your residents in here. Lash: Well yeah. if that's a workable thing. But say it's Scout night or some kind of a thing like that and they need to have the sink facility and they're going to serve their dads donuts or something like that and they want to have a table setting. This wouldn't work for it. I guess if nothing else would work. Andrews: It has to be first come. Lash: Yeah. Well it's going to be anyway. Schroers: I think that what we're into there is a staff scheduling concern. ~ Lash: Yeah, I think we just need to go with it for a few months and see. If you come back and it looks like it's turning into a nightmare, we'll have to go back. Lemme: It's definitely not something we're going to advertise. You know senior center available. And as I said, I will keep this, the seniors do have first priority over any useage and that's why I put on there that reservations can be made no more than 60 days in advance because, and I don't know how that will be viewed as well. That's just 2 months but that way, if they have some plans that come up, they've got 2 months and normally everything's planned at least 3 months in advance. But that way they can still continue to have first priority over the activities that go in there. And I'd be more than willing to just bring in a request to the attention of my Senior Advisory Board, which I meet with them once a month and to talk with them about it as well. Schroers: It's very difficult for anyone to argue with first come, first serve. I mean if we're opening it to residents or non-residents you know, whoever gets there first and that's fair. That's equitable and a good way to operate. So okay. Back to the motion. I made it. Jim seconded it. Schroers moved. Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission establish Senior Center Rental Policy and Fees at 50.00 per 4 hours for a resident rate and $75.00 per 4 hours for a non-resident rate for private gatherings. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVE LAKE ANN PARK DAY CAMP. ~ Lemme: This is another item and really I'm just looking for some suggestions on this. This program. I wanted to bring it to your attention and Todd's attention of what we're intending to offer this summer. I've had parents last summer and I'm sure Jerry had requests in Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23. 1993 - Page 18 .......", the past that playground, 1 hour a week is just not enough. I don't know what the fees are out at Camp Tanadoona or some other other residential camps. We'd like to keep this as low key as possible but utilize the nice facility that we have this summer. We'll have canoes out there. Some other items that will be really fun for the kids. We'd like to do an overnight once a session. And I've got some staff from last year already kind of geared up for this. But again I'm open to suggestions on if you think this is something that we should potentially not take upon us this summer. Berg: Well I have a couple things. First of all I wish you could have seen my 8 year old's face when I asked her if she thought this was a good idea. You'd be real pleased. The eyes got real big and this is just a fantastic idea according to Kara. Would you be breaking up the camps within the camps by age group? Lemme: Yes. I believe we said enterting grades 2-6 so probably 2nd and 3rd would be together and 4th thru 6th, enterting 4th thru 6th might be together. Or we may even break them up into 3 divisions. We'd keep really close on staff to camper ratios. Probably 1 to 9. Something like that. Andrews: As far as the camping...where would that equipment come from? Lemme: We would run it, actually this isn't solely my idea. When I used to work at Minnetonka we used to do a campout once a week through ~ Minnetonka Park and Rec. And we had parents, we just asked parents to come and set up, The kids would actually go home, they'd come back for supper. The parents help to set up the tents. They bring their own from their houses and then they spend the night. They do activities and games. You know do the campfire and sing-along thing and go home the next morni ng. Andrews: My kids also had that same reaction. They couldn't wait for this, for the sign ups. I think if this goes through. you're going to have an incredible response. Berg: Now's the right timing. We just got a thing from Tanadoona today from school so they're starting to think about it. Lemme: We'd like to do some publicity through the, go directly to the school. In May they have family nights and some of those things and promote it through that. Playground as well. Berg: I wouldn't wait until May. Lash: I wouldn't either. Berg: They're going to, kids are starting to sign up for Tanadoona now. I would get into the brown envelope as fast as you can. Lash: Is Camp Tanadoona an all day thing or is that? -'" ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 19 Berg: Yeah. They have different options. It is an all day with an option to camp the last night. Lash: Okay. I guess I think this is a great idea too and, I'll be interested to see the interest level here. One thing that could be a d~awback is the timing because it's not an all day thing. If you have both parents working, they're looking for something for the kids to do other than daycare in the summer and what is it, 9:30 to 2:00 or something? That's going to be a problem for people to get their kids there and pick them up. And I'm not suggesting you go to all day because there are other places they can go to do that. Lemme: That's something we tossed around and again this is just in the earliest planning stages. We kept thinking, should we do this. Offer it in 1 week sections so people aren't committed to 2 weeks. Should we do this all day? Should we offer this for kindergarten thru 6th grade? Where is the best place to start and we decided to start small. But kind of like the same concept as the Kids Club. If we had, maybe offered a morning program, we might have had a bigger response because of the parents working schedule. So that's something we still can look at changing. Berg: I hate to bring them up but Tanadoona does do a nice job and one of the things they do is, I think they start earlier than 9:30 but they'll ~ have somebody there as early as 7:00 or 7:30. To drop their kids off and they do real informal kinds of things in a group and whatever. And they'll do the same thing after the camp too. They're open until 5:00 or whatever is an appropriate time so that it does take care of that problem. They're still supervised but they're not doing all the organized things. They're in a much smaller group because most kids do go home, do arrive later and go home earlier. Lemme: We have the luxury of the beach so we can do open swim. Lash: So what are you going to do about the weather? Lemme: Well we've got the pavillion. We can do quite a bit in there we hope. Just like our playgrounds are. We kind of just, we have activities planned for under cover if we need them and it could be a long day you know if you were doing that but that could be worked with. If I have a real creative staff. Lash: And then I guess when you said about doing it 1 week or doing it 2 weeks. I remember a couple of years ago a friend of mine saying with the Dynamites and Totlots, because that was, at that time it was 3 weeks or s6mething stretches, and she didn't like signing up for the 3 weeks because one of the weeks was always their week of vacation. And they're paying for 3 weeks and they knew they weren't going to use 1 week. Not that it's a lot of money but this is a little bit bigger program so maybe a 1 week stretch would be a better thing because that way with vacation schedules they know, they're only committing to the 1 week and if they're ~ 90ing to be gone the next week then... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 20 ....., Andrews: Perhaps...maybe 1 week section and two 2 week sections or something to give people a little flexibility. Lemme: Okay. Good idea. We also talked about incorporating a tennis lesson, because I do hire a tennis specialist for the summer to run our tennis lessons for youth and they do our junior tennis team and possibly incorporating that within that time they would either go to a swim lesson or tennis lesson. And I talked to Minnetonka Community Services who runs our lessons over at Lake Ann and he felt that we could try to work in some type of water safety lessons. Not where they would actually get a certificate but where they could get some instruction. So there'd be a time to break off for that as well. I do kind of think that it would be helpful if we could do it all day. I hate to say it but it would be used as more of a daycare in that type of instance. But I'd prefer to have the kids with us than being home alone. Berg: And if it just meant keeping 1 or 2 people a little bit longer at each end of the day. Hoffman: With our demographics that just triples to quadruples your participants. Lash: Well and it depends on if that's what you want the first year. know if you want massive participation the first year, go all day. If want to have, if you want to start out and see how it flies and then expand it, you know you have that option. It depends on. You you ..." Lemme: We had kind of based some fees as a minimum of 15 children per session so we're really starting out small. Lash: 15 per grade level or 15 total? Lemme: 15 per session. Just having maybe 2 staff. We wanted to set it really low so that we could hopefully have it run but as you said, I can potentially see if we open it up for all day, seeing that not be a problem at all. Berg: Will it be run loosely enough that if a child doesn't want to do the water safety and doesn't want to, isn't old enough to take tennis lessons for example, will there be, can it be sort of a round robbin kind of schedule where there will be something for this child to do if they don't want to go in the water for example? So they won't be just sitting there watching everybody else play for the hour while everybody's doing something in the water. Lemme: Yeah, we'd work that out. That would be, hopefully the tennis lesson or the swimming lesson ~ould be determined prior to them signing up. When they are additionally signed up for their choices. I could see having some other choice for them if they didn't want tennis or swimming. Lash: But then if we think we were to expand it to a full day, that starts eliminating some kids who are interested in doing something for part of the day but don't really want to be there for the whole day. .....", ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 21 Berg: But they're on vacation for 9 weeks. making a commitment for that amount of time? rest of their vacation. I mean are they going to mind I mean when they've got the Lash: Mine would. They wouldn't be interested, I mean they're going to go anyway. They're too big. But when they were this age, they wouldn't be interested in getting up at 7:00 to be over there by 7:30 to get started and then have to spend the whole day there until 5:00. That gets to be a long day if you know you could be at home doing other kinds of things. If it's an option to daycare, it probably would be fun for most of them. Berg: A lot of it depends on demographics too. I mean our situation it's not daycare that's a problem. The problem is there aren't any kids in our neighborhood my daughters age so this is a wonderful opportunity for her to go out and meet new friends. Lash: But do you think sHe'd want to get up and get going and spend the whole day there? Berg: She did at Tanadoona. That's all I .can base it on. She wants to go there again. Hoffman: I think if we went back to Commissioner Berg's first ~ explanation. Potentially advertise the program from 9:00 to 3:00 but you have the option from 7:00 to 9:00 and 3:00 to 5:00. Promote the program 9:00 to 3:00 but then yoU have these other two options. Roeser: I think the best idea is to keep it focused and then if you want to expand it, it's easier than to try and have it expanded and then narrow it down. You can always go out. Hoffman: Then yOU have one group of participants who show up from 7:00 to 9:00 and another group that is dropped off at quarter to 9:00 and you have a group that's picked up at 10 after 3:00 and then the others are picked up from 3:00 to 5:00. Lash: Maybe that's when some of those other options could be offered. Like tennis'in the morning or swimming in the afternoon for some of those kind of kids. Lemme: Actually the tennis would have to be early. Because they do offer the lessons in the morning over at Lake Ann. That's a good idea. Hoffman: And I think the age group would be a consideration there. How young are we proposing? Lemme: Entering grades 2 thru 6. Hoffman: So grades 2 and 3, a 7:00 to 5:00 day at Lake Ann Park... ~ Lash: Especially if it's raining. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 22 -" Berg: A strong recommendation is if the camp runs from 9:30 to 3:00 but that there will be someone there from whatever hours. Manders: The question I have is, aside from like parent volunteers, what other kind of supervision or how many do you envision? Lemme: Well we wouldn't have parent volunteers. We would hire staff. Qualified staff to run. I've got a stack of applications of people applying to run playground on their elementary education majors from colleges and some teachers who are looking for summer work. So I would hire qualified staff and just incorporate that, the staff cost into the fee of the program. Berg: They certainly worked well last year. They seemed to anyway. They seemed to be very qualified. Lemme: They are very qualified. Berg: Better than a high school senior who... Schroers: This type of programming generally speaking, what it evolves ,to is considerably more than what is anticipated initially. We've had several programs like the maple syruping program that just start out, we thought there might be a few local people interested. People are driving from miles and miles...and it's ongoing, not only for participants but staff as well. An ongoing, learning evolving program and you just kind of adjust along with the program as it goes but I think you've got the right idea. You've got a foundation here and take off with it and build on it. ....,.", Lemme: I would do similar to playgrounds where I have a coordinator. He does most of the lesson planning but those kind of things are submitted to me on a weekly basis so. I'm in real close contact with it but not directly running the camp. The same with playground. I have a coordinator and then they have leaders that assist them in running the playground site. Schroers: Okay, you're not asking for any formal action from us? Lemme: No. Schroers: Just in terms of suggestions, comments. Lemme: I got a lot of good ones. Thank you. Schroers: We send more power to you. Go for it. Hoffman: Chairman Schroers, just one more comment on Commissioners Manders comments about parent volunteers. We certainly aren't going to deny parent volunteers. In fact we might encourage them, particularly during a specific day where there's some activity going on that it would be, volunteers would be nice for them to come out so we would publish that as part of the program literature. Lemme: Especially for the campout. --' ,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 23 Berg: I was thinking that. For sU~e, the little kids especially. Hoffman: In fact make it a family. Schroers: Okay great, thanks a lot Dawn. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: A. RESULTS OF ADULT SOFTBALL ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING. Ruegemer: ...organizational softball meeting March 10th. Actually we're sitting in really good shape right now. I remember last year at this time I was pulling my hair out trying to find facility space for all the teams and that but actually we're really right on line with where we need to be as far as numbers go. I did establish numbers before the season even started for what we could accommodate. You know taking into consideration the baseball program and some other softball needs. Youth softball to facilitate that program and actually we're sitting really where we need to be right now. Even after I wrote this memo, if you look in the industrial league, there were 17 teams as of last Friday. Now there's 16 so that's really where we want to be for that, so we're just waiting on fees with that. The women's league dropped by a couple teams so we're hopefully, I talked to somebody at Festival Foods yesterday so hopefully we're going to get getting somebody else to come in. Another Redmond team so that'd make ~ an even 8 so there's hope for that league yet and another team, I think by far the Over 35 league has seen the most change so far this year. With the, even after with the 15 teams, now there's another team that withdrew yesterday so there's 14 teams. Where we were last year. So that's not a bad scenario to be in as well. But coming out of that Over 35 league this year, they decided that the league may split up into two divisions which I thought was a wise decision just because of the competition level of the teams. And also coming out of that league now, there's also going to be a sancitioned Over 50 team playing within that league so they'll go on to probably a State tournament season as well. If they choose to do that. Mens Open C and D leagues, we're sitting at where we need to be. Like a lot of the other leagues, there was 21 teams. As of last Friday somebody else pulled out now so we're sitting at 20 so it's really working out very nicely with that situation. So we're just waiting on fees and rosters right now. The Co-Rec league, on a nati6nal level now. Co-Rec 11 and 12 did change kind of their set-up of that league. There's going to be 3 different divisions now with that. An A, AIB division and C division and I understand a D division. The reasoning behind this different classifications now is to classify certain caliber players on these teams to their respective classes. So if you have an A player playing somewhere, they'd play AIB in our Co-Rec leagues so we're just trying to create a better, well rounded league. We will be having some A, B, AIB, C and D classes within one league this year which will be a little confusing but we will get all that resolved. We're having a special meeting tomorrow night to resolve some of the questions that and comments that came up at the league meeting at the end of March. So we'll work through some of those issues tomorrow night and get these things ironed out ~ tomorrow night for that particular league. League fees are coming in. League fees were due last Friday. Today we've taken close to $14,000.00 in just for the league fees so far. And rosters are due on Friday. The Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 24 ....." season will be starting, the industrial leagues April 29th. Does anybody have any questions? I kind of went through that real quick. Berg: Why are they pulling away, some of them? Ruegemer: Some of the teams? Some of the teams were sponsored by industries, this is my theory on it all. And just a lot of the industrial teams have had to cut back. The CEO's are...sponsor only one softball team this year. You guys decide who that, I've heard that from a number of people. ...a lot of teams~ with shift changes and all that, they just can't form teams. Berg: So they're not upset with our policy in any way? It's economics. Roeser: The location of these games, are they like at Lake Ann and Lake Susan? Ruegemer: Right. Lake Ann Park. Thank you very much. Schroers: Good Jerry, thanks. B. PROPOSED CONFERENCE/COMMUNITY CENTER. Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers. A quick verbal report. The activity level on this item is fairly low at this point in time. Last action which was taken~ coming out of the meetings with the Planning Commissions, Park Commission and City Council, there were some questions raised as to, will this facility meet the present needs of the community? Will it meet the needs out to the year 2000... City Manager Ashworth requested that a formulated report in that regard. That was completed the early part of last week. Just finaled on Thursday prior to your packet coming out. I will include a copy of it in the next packet~ which will likely be in 2 weeks. In that memo I discussed, or that letter report I discussed the level of service which other communities see from public facilities, be it public gyms, racquetball courts, those type of facilities, in public schools as well. The trend which we will see is that in the smaller communities, population of 10,000 to 15,000 to 20,000, you have a higher predominance of public facilities. It's mainly due to the, you find when you ao to communities, Eden Prairie, Burnsville, those little farther in suburbs, the private facilities find it very comfortable setting. They have the population to generate revenues so you have zero public racquetball courts in the city of Eden prairie but you have over 18 private racquetball courts in that city. So service levels by which organizations switch. The farther you get out, you have to rely on a public facility because you're not going to find a Flagship or Crosstown or somebody that is interested in coming out to Chanhassen. ...."", Schroers: We're getting to closer in every day. We may as well just wait for the private sector to come in and build us some clubs. Hoffman: Those type of statements have been made and it's, the Park Commission obviously you hold a strong card in this entire debate, which it is for the moment. It has turned into som~what of a debate at the Council level ~o until all of these discussion level items are ironed out, ....." ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 25 we are by no means in a straight ahead path to constructing this facility in downtown Chanhassen. At any time I will be coming back to the Park Commission upon direction of the City Councilor the City Manager to ask for additional input. But if you feel, at your discretion that you want to have conversations with either the City Manager or Council members in this regard to express your feelings, do so. That's the level of discussion which we're at right now. People are kind of bouncing this thing off of each other. As you saw in the City Newsletter the Mayor asked for comments on the inside cover. The Plan, the 2002 Plan and the issue of a community center. I'v~ not heard from Mayor Chmiel what the response level has been on that...his findings are published or brought out to the public. Andrews: Todd, as a related item to this potential community center. Is there any update on the Chaska school property at all at this point? Hoffman: Chaska school property for the elementary school site was purchased. Andrews: I think that's going to have a big impact on what happens on the financial conference/community center development. r-. Schroers: I think that we need to be kept on line with what's new and happening and developing and be in a position to seize the golden opportunity should one present itself. That could happen through, I don't know what's proposed. If it's the one that...proposal with the area down by Filly's and all that. That has some potential and if we get a chance to capitalize on that, that would be great. But I think we're really dead in the water as far as actively pursuing a community center as such. In this economy we are. Hoffman: I wouldn't classify it as dead in the water. The funding mechanism is, and funding climate is much different. The City Council will not be going to the citizens of Chanhassen asking them to pay for this center through general bonding. The proposal is exactly what the city of Chaska did is to construct it through tax increment. Through the downtown TIF district so I would think perceptions would change dramatically. Some people aren't totally comfortable with tax increment financing but it's been used universally across the metropolitan area to construct these types of facilities. "'"' Lash: I would look at that as being able to fill the needs for a while. I don't know long term that it's going to fill the needs. It's obviously not going to be large enough to do that from the plans that I saw but it would solve some of the needs and then if we end up with a new elementary school, and we're talking about doubling our gym space for basketball and volleyball and gymnastics and all that, so I see with the combination of the two and then with potentially more property in that area too, that the city could use, they would add indoor ice or something like that out there. I see that between the two it could fill the need and I think it'd be kind of nice to have them in two different locations. Actually. So that yoU don't have the traffic and the parking. If you just want to go to use ice, you could go out there and if you wanted to go in the pool, you can go here and you don't have everybody at the same spot. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 26 ..."., Hoffman: Those comments were brought forth exactly and some of my concluding comments. This structure is not going to serve the needs for the community for 15 or 20 or 30 years but the community's going to change as well. We're going to get this elementary school site. The next middle school will most likely be within the city of Chanhassen so the city will expand to meet those increasing needs. Lash: If that can be done without a referendum and increase. Schroers: Yeah, that's what I was referring to as dead in the water was a referendum. Lash: Who's going to have an objection to it. I mean I can't imagine anybody would have too much of an objection. Hoffman: In fact it's something where tax increment is used for a variety of things. It's used for downtown rennovation. That includes buying property and rennovating roads and those type of things. And I would think what could be better than to build a facility which the entire community could use such as a community center with some of that money. This is an opportunity to do this. It runs out in the year 2000-2002 so this is a window of opportunity we have between now and then. Obviously as the money begins to, the money will probably be allocated within the next couple of years so the opportunity to use that tax increment . financing is very small. So if it's the intent of the Park Commission to get behind this proposal and back it, you may want to take some steps in that direction. But, again, the ~ommission may wish to address this at some point...discussion level. If you want to get an update from the City Council in this regard, I would be happy to take that information. ...."I Manders: A comment I've got I guess, concern or statement. Is that area, is this the best use of that area? I haven't really heard an answer to that. What are some other options. I really question if this is the best use. Hoffman: That issue has been mulled around for the entire time that the downtown is being redeveloped. Obviously if it was a prime area, a user such as the new mall or the medical building or the hotel or one of the new banks would have picked it. But they have not simply because it is not a prime retail/commercial type of location. It's tucked in behind the Dinner Theatre. It has poor access so it has been the conclusion that you have to have a destination type use in that a public facility may in fact be the best use. You're not going to entice a Kinny's Shoes or another supermarket or a restaurant to go back into that location. You could entice a Builders Square or somebody like that but that's what has been back there in the past, is a lumber yard, scene shop. Those type of things. That is why the HRA has the interest to clean up the use and turn it into something attractive for the community. We saw that new Chan Lawn and Sports has gone down now. There will be an addition to the medical building. So the City is getting a new and refreshed look but that remains to be the one sore spot. As you drive along the boulevard and you look into that backyard from Highway 5. Andrews: That annex onto the Animal Fair building is really a nice sight. ....." ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 27 Schroers: We could build a dome and be like... Okay. So right now basically, are you looking for support from the Commission to take to the Council specifically or at some point in the future when this begins to gain momentum a little bit would then be a better time to organize our support? Hoffman: Well again, I'm not going to be the person who says you should or should not be supporting this issue. If you feel it is, will benefit the community to support it, then you should be voicing that to the City Council. Lash: So do you think that if we had support here, now would be the time to voice that to start the momentum going? Hoffman: Oh sure. Lash: Maybe they need it. If it's starting to fizzle, maybe they need. Hoffman: At any time. Where it currently is, they were trying to buy some time so this memorandum about ability into the future. That was the... Curt Green, the gentleman who made the presentation to this group and to Planning Commission is now going to be taking that information. Essentially what the report says is, the program they proposed is lacking one component. It is staff's opinion that it's indoor playground. If .~ you've ever utilized an indoor playground in Minnesota, you know that they are widely popular and if there's one thing which would put this center, or give this center an edge over the Chaska,Community Center, which is now receiving state renown but it's renown nationally is well, would be an indoor playground site. The community where we spend a ton of money on outdoor playgrounds, as we witnessed this evening, and they're used 3 months out of the year. I think an investment in an indoor playground which can be used 12 months out of the year, just would be a huge success. We've recommended that we add that component. The recommendation also included that we build in the first phase, if we can, one oversized gymnasium but then we have the ability to expand that. Also the expansion, we should have the ability to expand in fitness recreation areas. Fitness and exercise is only going to expand in the future...we're obviously not going to go in and add onto the pool. That type of thing. But we'd like to see a leisure type of pool. Not the traditional YMCA or high school pool where it's simply a lap thing. It's a rectangular pool. To meet the market which we have, which is the family market that's very leisure oriented. A leisure pool should be... The other items that need to be built...into the future would be the changing and dressing room in all other support areas so your lobbies and your office areas and those type of things. Lash: Is there room back there for all of this? Hoffman: Sure. Schroers: The one big thing you didn't mention~ indoor ice. ,.... Hoffman: Indoor ice. I think it is the community's feeling at this time that Chaska's indoor ice is there. It's not been as successful as they Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 28 ...., anticipated. It's certainly meeting the needs. The City of Eden prairie has one ice. Two ice components there. They recently added on an Olympic sized ice arena at the Eden prairie Community Center. We just don't think the need is there to support an ice arena in the city of Chanhassen. Berg: It's sounding more encouraging I think than when we met with HRA. One of the things that I remember with that meeting was that there was a lot of discussion between communities and corporate use. The hotel and the Dinner Theatre and also the business of, I didn't hear you talk about a large meeting room anymore. Hoffman: The direction that came out of those meetings when the dog and pony show was kind of taken on the road is that all this talk about convention, meeting rooms and working in the private/public venture is probably not working out and if there's a maximum of $5 million that should be spent, invest it in the community center rather than investing it in a convention center you know for the betterment of the convention business in the city. Berg: The way you're describing it, I would have no trouble with enthusiastically telling that to the City Council. That sounds much more encouraging and much more exciting for the community than what I heard at that meeting. Roeser: Yeah, that meeting turned me off completely. Now listening to you, it sounds like an entirely different story. Hoffman: Some of the direction which came out of that meeting and then the subsequent City Council goals session which was the following Saturday, was that what the City Manager, what Hammel-Green, what the Councilmembers heard was that the backing of retrofitting the bowling alley or the convention center or the expansion of the hotel and the joint use between those wasn't there. The one thing that strongly came out was the construction of a community center and that's where we're going to focus our attention for the meantime. ...., Andrews: It seemed like the HRA meeting was, the focus was what recreational facilities can we get that would enhance the hotel convention business? I think the emphasis seems to have reversed now which is to focus on the facility of recreation for the community. So there is some benefit...I think that's much more appropriate. I felt like we were just kind of... Hoffman: The timeframe on this is fairly wide open so I think what I would propose is that upon Hammel-Green-Abrahamson getting back into this project and upon some additional direction from the City Council, or following the memorandum which went out, bring it forward for the Commission at your April meeting and you can respond then to the City Council accordingly. Lash: Now does the City Council seem to be split in this or what's their feeling? ..."" .IfII"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 29 Hoffman: There certainly is a debate on it and part of the debate is, as Commisssioner Manders brought up, is the use, is this the use. There has been discussion of you taking money out of the tax roll... It is my belief that sure. If you take too much that can be a detriment to the community, to the citizens and the taxpayers but you're attempting to build this community center for their benefit. So there's a balance there. Andrews: It's going to enhance the overall value and development. I don't see that... Hoffman: Correct. Those debates are ongoing and need to be carried out and discussed. Schroers: It might be appropriate at this time to just direct staff to at the next Council meeting, if this issue comes up, just to verbally express the Park and Rec's support for continuation and development of this program. Hoffman: Okay. Schroers: It sounds to me, if I can be presumptuous that everyone would like to see this, okay continue. ~ Lash: That was my question. We'd better make sure it's unanimous agreement here. Schroers: In general are we supportive. Is there someone who is not in support of seeing the Council and the whole process continue to develop and evolve? I mean it wouldn't make any sense because at this point there's really not, it isn't far enough along to be making any major decisions so we'd just encourage the progression until we get to a point where there is something to act on. Hoffman: It is an interesting process in that if this was a typical drive for a community center you would be the agency carrying that out but since the bankroll is held by the HRA, and members of the City Council sit on the HRA, the HRA is overseeing the revitaLization in the downtown. That's where the process begins but again, at any time they turn this thing into high gear, you can bet that they will be looking to you for a variety of involvement and a variety of different levels as well. As far as design and. . . Roeser: One thing I like about the idea of a location right downtown is it serves that notion of community whereas you get into some of these other suburbs and their center is not a focal point in the area. It's kind of out by itself. Schroers: Yeah their community center is on the edge of town. Roeser: Yeah. It's not in the community. r'" Schroers: Okay, real good. Let's move on then to item C. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 30 """" c. ESTABLISHMENT OF NEXT WORK SESSION. RECREATION SECTION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Hoffman: I apologize for my absence at the last meeting. I was excited about being there for that initial kickoff of this process. Understandably there's some confusion between Mr. Koegler as to what exactly our direction is but I think we got some valuable input that evening. The labor turned out to be only 5 or 6 times, 10 minutes apart. We went in at 5:30 in the morning so. Lash: I thought it sounded like it wasn't born until 7:00 or something the next morning, I thought it was an all night. Hoffman: It quit and started over. .So I wotuld propose that we set the next meeting for the second Tuesday of April. We'll again have 2 meetings in April. Andrews: Sounds good. 7:30 again? Schroers: Anyone have a particular problem with that? Lash: I know I won'.t be here but.. .my Tuesdays are going to be taken up for the next 10 weeks. Schroers: So the 13th of April. ...." Hoffman: One issue to discuss... (This presentation was not picked up on the tape.) Hoffman: ...essentially we have this portion of the city which is developed. The maps, the aerial maps, did you take a look at some of those? Those have been run through this area which is developed. So if we move west, we have Prince is a large landowner who's probably not going to be... We have the Gorra piece, we have the Klingelhutz on the east north...so that piece is gone. The next quadrant which is between Galpin Boulevard and staying north of Highway 5., and Hazeltine Boulevard, you have the Song, Carlson piece down here to the south and east which is in for development and the Johnson/Dolejsi which you already have reviewed as part of Lundgren's...large landowners up here are still holding on to property. Then you move south. Across the highway you've got obviously Opus quadrant which contains this piece. The O'Shaughnessy, which just came in. The Carlson piece to the south. So 6 or 8 months ago... This quadrant of the city has recently all pretty much been locked up in development. Timberwood was first. Then we had Stone Creek come in. That's a done deal. Bluff Creek Estates came in. That's a done deal. This is a commercial property, industrial that came in. That's all done. Then the piece you have lef~ is this negotiation for the school up here so this quadrant is gone. So you've taken this entire piece and it's pretty much in for development so this process of coming up with the comprehensive park plan... So this is, they've shown less of an interest down, as well the MUSA line cut off the availability of this property so anything which was available was picked up. Then we move west of Lake Minnewashta. You've already reviewed the piece south of Lake st. Joe. ......,I Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ March 23. 1993 - Page 31 There are 4 parcels which we're looking at acquisition of park property. The one to the south... Developers are walking into the Planners office on a daily basis. They give me a buzz saying. Todd if you have time to discuss this...park and recreation. We're still working under the old system where we're working off of park deficient areas and it doesn't work very well because of the negotiations that we have to get in with those folks. The strongarming and that kind of thing. We simply have a plan... That will require that we meet... Lash: How about if you take those, the Opus, the O'Shaughnessy and the Carlson, are those all the names? And try and put that together in some kind of a thing that we can look at and see all of them together and if you look at that and can tell where it would work out the best and if it means getting a small parcel which each one of them, if it's where they all come together or wherever it is. Where the trees are. Just where you think it would work out that we could maximize maybe the tree preservation plus getting some flat ground that we could turn into active use if we wanted to too. Maybe if need to take that route and forget this old Opus plan and quit monkeying around with that guy and just take the money and use it if we need it to acquire some of the acreage that we might need from some of the other ones. We're going to get a lot more money from him than we would from the residential ones. Schroers:. I feel that the ball has already bounced in centerfield and ~ we're standing on homeplate saying, should we run. Not that we have been negligent. It's just that things have happened so fast that. you know with our new proposed comprehensive plan to have the areas that we want for park specified and then the Tree Board is opting for the same type of mechanism. Identifying trees. Specimen trees that meet certain criteria that are to be saved at all costs but their policies, ordinances, all this thing are just in the development stage and we're a little bit behind the ball in this. It's just too bad that we didn't start this sooner and that we could overlay the park and recreation plan with the Tree Board plan and see where the overlapping areas. You know this area up here and the corner of the Opus plan with the nice trees and stuff. is very desireable to the Tree Board. On the other hand, from a park and rec point of view, for the active use site that we're looking for, out in that area of the city, it's not desireable and I think it's unreasonable to think that Park and Rec is going to get everything that we want and the Tree Board is going to get everything that they want because in reality then, about the only thing that developers would get would be a tilled fill that was hilly. I mean other than that, we want everything and we want to save all the trees and we've got a little bit difficult road to hoe here but we do need to identify these areas as quickly as possible and get the plan in the works ASAP or it's going to be too late. Hoffman: I think your comments are right on target. In fact, if we implement this comprehensive park plpn and have it adopted and then we try to impose what that document says onto somebody who is already into the process, they can dispute that so anybody who's already got their hat into the ring, they may choose to follow the recommendation. They may choose ~ not. We'll still go through the negotiation process of acquiring parkland but we have implemented in the ordinance, the development ordinance that once we have this comprehensive plan, if you come in and develop a parcel, Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 32 ..."", you need to UP front that park property. So we're putting all the pieces into place. We just need to get through the process. I'm confident with enough staff preparation outside of these meetings bringing to you a full, complete packet with the assistance of Hoisington-Koegler and the expertise that they bring to the table, we can get this thing done. Schroers: That will be great if we can. With that let's move on to D. D. WORKSHOP FOR BOARD AND COMMISSION MEMBERS. Hoffman: To date I would have to say I've been somewhat unsuccessful in getting our Park Commissioners to join in these Board outings or Commission workshops. I think, I mean this one is on a Saturday. It's very difficult for volunteer commission members to give up a Saturday. However, if there is ever one to promote, with this program highlighting the Shorewood Community Center, or the Shoreview Community Center, and the parallel that that would bring to the proposal for a community center in Chanhassen is very good. As well the festival and special events as part of playing a part in building community spirit, that is something that the city has always prided itself on. Marketing recreation services just fills out the programs. So if there is anybody that is interested. Andrews: I think I'd like to try to make this one. Hoffman: I'll take names this evening. Send in the applications. We can get through the office so you don't have to. -"" Schroers: Anyone besides Jim that's interested in attending? Hoffman: Okay, Jim. Schroers: Ron? Hoffman: I'll be joining. Roeser: I work on Saturdays. Hoffman: I'll be joining whoever attends as well as Jerry and Dawn. We also may be promoting this out to some other folks who would be interested in the community center process so we may be joined by City Council members as well. Schroers: Okay. Hoffman: oh excuse me. One addition to the Admin Presentations. The issue of mosquito control is obviously resurfacing. They're out there doing their control. They're contacting us if they, well they're talking to us anyway. They're not doing any larval control in city parks as of yet. Then we have the, that's the mosquito control side. Then we have the citizen, Eric Rivkin's side who is accomplished the task of introducing legislation through I believe Ted Mondale to abolish the Mosquito Control District so that that front is going on as well. But what Mr. Rivkin has requested is to ask out of courtesy if the Commission would have any ....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ March 23, 1993 - Page 33 objection to using quotations out of your Minutes in those hearings down at the State Capitol in this regard. Schroers: We can't refuse it. If it's public record, he has a right to it. Hoffman: I just informed him that I would ask, out of courtesy and then again I requested that if it went through, that he certainly not take anybody out of context. Take a half a sentence or something of that nature. Lash: And he wouldn't do that. Schroers: But at this point we are bound to the recommendation that we made with Mosquito Control for last year is still in effect. Hoffman: Oh sure. Lash: That is up for review again this year, isn't it? Hoffman: This year and communities are joining the metropolitan area. Maplewood. it's somewhat conservative really now that many the bandwagon. They're taking their show allover They were down in Lakeville. They've been in ,..., Lash: They who? Hoffman: The MMCD. They've been allover at the request of communities to become informed. City of Minneapolis, as you know, opted out of the entire program. They've stated that they've received zero complaints so that lends a lot of credibility to opting out of the program and what the program does for your city. But again, that debate is still ongoing. Lash: On that topic, in the administrative packet there was the flyer about the Mens Club and they made the bluebird houses I believe. And when we were going through those discussions last summer, what was it that we were supposed to be trying to get built? Wasn't it bat houses and some other kind of bird though. Was it wren houses? Hoffman: Bluebirds will eat mosquitoes. Couple hundred a day I think is what the naturalist said. Lash: I remember it was bat houses and some other kind of bird. Schroers: And swallows. Lash: Was it? I couldn't remember but I thought maybe we needed to try and get some group to make some of those to get put out too in different areas. Schroers: Mosquito control kind of indicated that they were, they didn't ~. feel that that was an effective program. We asked, if you recall, I think that we asked if they would be interested in pursuing some of those things and they said, well they wouldn't. I believe they wouldn't discourage us Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 34 -"'" or other interested groups to pursue that but they didn't feel that that was an effective means of control. Hoffman: The naturalist we had in the other day from Lowery, obviously from their point of view had a different opinion. You know bluebirds will eat a couple hundred a day. Lash: Let's get thousands of those put out. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Andrews: I've got a whole bunch. Berg: I've got something too when you're done. Andrews: Just making some notes about, some of these things I've brought up in the past but I'd like to keep reminding that the board as well as staff. I think we still need to address the needs of the Minnetonka School District about programming and communication. I've seen so many things that were targeted around the Chaska School Oistrict and it just seems like Minnetonka is a forgotten school district when..it comes to the kids programming. This is coming from somebody that I'm married to but also from other neighbors that, so whatever can be done to improve communications about programs that we have also to the Minnetonka School District part of Chanhassen I think would be appreciated. The other thing, I also had talked about this before is loose dogs and also pets in the park. I think it'd be real appropriate if we were to put something in -"'" the local paper our pet rule now that the snow is melting and people are getting outside. Like they're coming out of their caves from the winter. I came home from work today and the paths along the road are just full of bikes and people out walking so it might be a good time to remind people about what our rules are about pets in parks. Then the last thing has to do with the letter I saw regarding the meeting regarding the Highway 101 trail. I've contacted, just because I couldn't locate my packet, I just found that today, I contacted a number of people in our neighborhood that own properties within 100 yards of that and none of them can recall ~ver receiving anything in the mail. If that meeting is officially on, I guess I want that to be confirmed that the people received their mailings. Maybe on a spot check basis. But that issue is obviously very important to me and I want to make sure that the people have had adequate notice. And I guess I'm curious to know who are the people that are receiving the mailings. Is it the people, property directly on TH 101 or people within a certain radius of TH 101 or all neighborhoods that are basically isolated which would be basically everybody from Kurvers Point all the way UP to the Lundgren properties would be interested parties. Hoffman: I'll comment once you're through. Andrews: That's it for me. Hoffman: Mr. Berg. Berg: I have a concern as to where we left off last time concerning junior rec, or Junior Olympic volleyball. I had the distinct impression ....". ~, Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23. 1993 - Page 35 when we got done with our discussions with the Murphy's that we were in favor of sponsoring Junior Olympic volleyball and I hope that I'm wrong. I don't think it's appropriate. A couple things in going through the Minutes that I'd like to comment on. One of the rational for our sponsoring the volleyball, that particular volleyball program is that Chaska sponsors traveling teams in basketball and others too but we're not comparing apples to apples here. Junior Olympic volleyball is not open to everybody. It's an exclusive group and if you have a child that wants to play in the Junior Olympic program, they can't just walk into it like you can into a traveling basketball team. I'm still real uncomfortable with our sponsoring, getting involved in sponsorship of programs and I had the distinct impression when we left last time that we were leaving the door open for that. ,.... Lash: I didn't feel that. That was not my feeling. I thought that we gave her the direction to approach CAA and see if they could fall under CAA. And I had a discussion, just to follow up with you Fred. I had a discussion with someone at the District level, because my biggest concern there was the fact that the person doing the scheduling through Community Ed is making up the rules about who can use the facilities and that was going to be addressed. That was my understanding from my discussion with that person. And the person from Junior Olympic volleyball should be able to call up and schedule the gym regardless of having a sponsorship or not. Now they may be down in the pecking order a little bit but nobody's going to be able to change that. unless they're affiliated with the school and then they'd have first dibs, or the city, they'd have second dibs. And I'm not in favor of sponsoring and I don't think that anybody here was. I think we were trying to give her some direction of where to go. Berg: Jerry, what was your involvement with that? Wasn't there something said about the fact that they were going to start working through you in terms of? Ruegemer: Murphy was Filled out .Ed. . . Yeah, in fact that's interesting that you bring that up. Gayle in my office this afternoon. Dropped off an application. an application for the space. I sent it down in the Community Lash: But you didn't sign us up or anything as being the sponsor of the team? Ruegemer: That was the direction that I was given last time. Lash: It was? Okay, that wasn't... - Andrews: I think it was kind of vague to be honest. Lash: I think it was vague too and I agree with Fred. It was confusing in the Minutes but that was not my intention. Schroers: Yeah. I thought that originally, we started going that ~ direction and then I think it was Jim brought it up that he felt that we should maybe be looking at some other avenues of pursuit first such as the CAA and then that was pretty much our general contention and Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 36 recommendation at that point. That they check into CAA and see if they were willing, or if CAA was willing to work with them and give them the sponsorship or whatever that they were looking for and working I guess in the cooperation with CAA and Jerry to see what could be done in order to help them find the gym time and space that they needed. So I think it was a combination of things that we were actually. ...", Berg: I had a real sense that they walked out of here feeling that we were sponsoring them. Lash: Well I'm going to go back to the Minutes here and it was that Jim Manders said it was his comments, but they weren't his comments, they were yours probably Fred. And where you said I'd feel much more comfortable if you go through CAA first and Gayle said okay. So I contact CAA people? And that was how I felt the direction went was that she was going to go through CAA and see what happened there first. And then Jerry said you can contact me and then we kind of got off the track and I think she was asked, have you approached Chaska Park and Rec and she said, we have. And it's kind of the same thing. It sounded like they weren't willing to do too much either and then that was about the end of it. Berg: Some other problems with CAA was that they were going to have to, that they pay their coaches. Obviously CAA is strictly volunteer. I had a feeling that they didn't want to try to go through CAA because of that. And also because I think CAA would then have some control over their organization and I don't think they want that either. -'" Lash: Did Chris, would that be a problem do you know through CAA? Chris: Not that I know of. I don't believe we have any policies regarding, in fact personally I'd love to see the CAA...but I think. Berg: You're two different things here. Chris: Well that's what I was going to say. The perception of that organization is a little bit different. It is exclusive. although it isn't different really than traveling basketball who also cuts people when necessary so that in a sense, that happens to be run by an independent club. I don't know why. An independent basketball club for instance can reserve gym but a volleyball can't. I don't. understand that. Lash: See and I came away with it with the whole thing. That the whole deal was just a moot point because she shouldn't have to be sponsored to reserve the gym. Chris: I think basketball is sponsored down by the Chaska Park and Rec... Andrews: In looking at the Minutes here and there's a paragraph where I talk about, I think they should communicate with CAA and then Fred basically concurs, but it says Manders but it's Fred. Saying that he thought it would be more comfortable. Then Mrs. Murphy says okay, so I contact the CAA people? And Jerry says you contact me. I think we were all were sort of the impression that that meant that somehow that. that you were the contact for CAA. -'" ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 37 Ruegemer: ...out of scale. CAA is sponsored by our department. That's the way, the pecking order that we have to go through to reserve that district facility space. The way the policy and procedures read, it's sponsored so CAA is technically under us. Lash: But you guys said last time that isn't what the policy says. That's the interpretation of the policy. Hoffman: Correct. The interpretation. Lash: So that's where I have a problem with people making interpretations. The School Board did not make that their policy. It's how people are interpretting that. And so by saying that's what the School Board is telling us, they're not telling them that. That's what makes their life easier and that's not our problem and that's not Mrs. Murphy's problem. ~,....., Hoffman: The adminstrators of the reservation system are told that. It was my specific recollection that you sent the Murphys away; That we were going to work with them to whatever extent necessary to facilitate their needs. I think the discussion on that Athletic Association was there but it was concluded that any time the Athletic Association reserves a facility, it's reserved through our department. Jerry carries out, he's the liason to the Athletic Association. He represents the Athletic Association so if the Murphys were going to reserve through the Athletic Association, it was going to go through Jerry anyway. The last comment I recall was in that, okay then I'll work with Jerry. Yes, and the conversation ended. But there was that specific comments about the Athletic Association. That didn't go anywhere because they expressed their displeasure with going through that process. But I would recommend that at a staff level we pursue the issue at the school district level and if in fact this organization should be, and can be reserving space directly the district, I would prefer that and I think the Commission would prefer that as well. Schroers: I think what wasn.t as obvious at that meeting was the fact that it was a program that was not open to everybody. If I'm interpretting you correctly Fred, this is a team that you have to make. You have to be able to play to a certain ability in order to be on this team? 8erg: That's my understanding. Schroers: And I don't think that that fact was brought out to that degree in the last meeting. I think if it was, that we may have looked at it in a little different view. To say that we wouldn't be interested probably in sponsoring something that wasn't open recreational opportunity that anyone with a desire can participate in. Berg: I guess I'm concerned that Mrs. Murphy doesn't have that feeling does she? ;"-. Ruegemer: That she can go down and reserve the space on her own or that we're going to sponsor...? Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 38 --' Berg: Right. That she seems to have the feeling now that we're sponsoring that volleyball. Chris: If I can just add. It isn't against policy even for CAA to have kind of an "elite" type team. In fact we are doing that for baseball and softball. But we are also having in-house p~ograms. What we're trying to do in the CAA is give everybody a chance to play, one but also give some of the kids that are more advance an opportunity to play at more advance levels. And I don't see why that couldn't be for volleyball too. I mean I would love for us to have a volleyball program. If we had people interested in helping organize that, I'd love to do that. Lash: Well maybe that would be of working out the problem. Chris: I'll contact Mrs. Murphy. Berg: I guess I'd like that message conveyed to her that we're not, that we aren't sponsoring J.O. volleyball. Lash: And we're happy to coordinate her through you to CAA. That was my understanding when it ended, and I agree from looking at this, I guess it wasn't real clear. Schroers: Yeah, I think we were maybe all a little bit weak on that. We thought we had it nailed down but we didn't. Lash: So if she can be coordinated to CAA I guess. --' Berg: That will be fine. I have no problem with that at all. Lash: Is it too late to do that Jerry? Ruegemer: To go through CAA? Lash: I mean to somehow work that out so that she realizes it's not the city sponsoring her but through CAA. Ruegemer: Ultimately it still comes back. Lash: Right. Ruegemer: Actually I sent the application in today... Lash: The application for what? For her to use space? Ruegemer: Right. Lash: Otherwise, but you'd send it in anyway even if she was under CAA? Berg: But you're sending it in now with our endorsement in terms of sponsoring them? Ruegemer: Right. ...,.., Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~. March 23, 1993 - Page 39 Hoffman: Correct. And I sincerely believe that that was the direction which, at least. Andrews: I didn't feel that. I felt that when we ended that discussion, I personally felt like I wasn't sure what was decided but I felt like you were sure what was decided. So it was like well, I must have missed something. I just kind of like let it drop. I felt like we had kind of made a discussion and it just kind of dropped off the edge of the cliff and then Jerry said, okay. Have them contact me. So alright, if that makes sense to him, I can live with that. Roeser: What I don't understand about it, we sponsor the Chanhassen Athletic Association, is that right? Or what does sponsoring consist of? Ruegemer: Basically filling out an application. Roeser: Right. So if Mrs. Murphy had gone through the CAA and said, we'd like to have you guys... (There was a tape chang~ at this point in the discussion.) Schroers: I agree with Todd that we gave the opinion that we were supportive of having the volleyball program become a reality and we were hoping that it would work through the CAA but we were not clearly .~ definitive enough. Okay. So let's take it up at this point then. If it is only a matter of filling out an application and that's the extent of the sponsorship, why then would we not want to sponsor it if it was open to all on a competitive basis and everyone had a fair chance to participate in the program. Why would we then not want to sponsor it? Berg: To turn it back the other way and answer your question with a question. Why would we not want it to go through CAA like every other athletic organization? Chris: One thing, soccer is not part of CAA. Summer soccer...how that works but a precedent is established in that. Lash: But that's not scheduling gym space. She's trying to schedule gym space. Berg: Same thing though. Lash: No it's not because she has to go through the school to schedule the gym space where all you have to do is go through Jerry to schedule the field space. Schroers: First of all, before we even waste more time on this, or spend more time on this I should say. We need to find out if it's inappropriate from staff to be into this at this point without the representatives, the Murphys of the volleyball organization to represent themselves. ~ Hoffman: I would say so. If you change your recommendation tonight, yes. Lash: We didn't really make a recommendation last time. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 40 ....,., Hoffman: If we go, when you go back just a little bit farther and we say, Schroers: Okay I guess, I think it would behoove the Park and Rec Commission to encourage any organized, well meaning recreational activity that we can as long as provided with a safe and organized manner. I guess that if Jerry is willing to work with the Murphys to help you meet these requirements that you're asking for, then we should give you our blessing. Gayle Murphy: Well thank you. At that point we essentially~ but then we came bac k . Schroers: We kind of left it up to staff basically as well is what we did. Hoffman: We came back with the questioning back to the Athletic Association but then we came to the conclusion that staff represents the Athletic Association, thus we're representing this power volleyball league so that's, I came out of that meeting. If you recall the memo, I mean I'm not saying that I came out of it with a disappointment but I attempted, because of the I information which I had, and I felt that members of the commission had on the debate which went on about Junior Olympic volleyball that that may have came out somewhat stronger and that the tables would have been turned the other way. That did not occur. We continued down a road where things seemed to be amenable and we came out of this with the conclusion that we would assist them in scheduling gym time. I think we can gracefully dodge the bullet here if we go back to the district and straighten out the policy. If they are excluding them from, arbitrarily from scheduling time, then we'll get to the bottom of it and we'll simply say, there is no such policy. You have every right to go down there and schedule time. Go down and reserve your time. --' schroers: Great. Why don't you pursue that and if for whatever reason that doesn't work, then we'll have to bring the volleyball organization back in and re-address the issue. Berg: Should the application be pulled in the meantime? Lash: I guess I think it should. If it's in writing and it's not a thing that we want to get into, we'd better get it out before it's too late and then it's something that they're going to want to be an ongoing sponsorship and if it~s something that we're interested in doing, we need to nip it in the bud right now before it goes. schroers: Is that a problem Jerry? Ruegemer . . . Hoffman: As a part of that, I would then. Berg: You'd better let Mrs. Murphy know. Hoffman: Yeah, we'd let Mrs. Murphy know but then as well I'd simply bring Jerry into the office and we'd make a conference call down and straighten out the issue all and for one right at that point. If we don't receive satisfaction through Linda, the scheduler~ then we'll climb the ....", ladder from there. Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ March 23, 1993 - Page 41 ~ ,..... Berg: Then I think they should be brought back in too. Lash: Or at least a phone call or a letter explaining. If they end up looking at the policy and saying, yeah. Well we shouldn't be doing this. A letter to Mrs. Murphy Just saying, upon investigating the school policy, the sponsorship is unnecessary so we recommend that you just call directly and book the facility. Therefore we haven't. Hoffman: They're satisfied in that regard as well. Lash: Therefore we haven't done a sponsorship. Berg: ...it's just creating more problems. We've got an organization like CAA. Let's use them for sponsorship and just stir clear of it as a general rule. It isn't Junior Olympic volleyball as much as it's why go around CAA. It doesn't make any sense. Andrews: Todd, you wanted to comment on some of the things that I had said. Hoffman: Correct. Back to that list. We'll formally present something on the Minnetonka District. That has been an issue from day one. I don't need to express the thought that I'v. had in that area but we need to continue to get to those folks and I will freely admit that the City of Chanhassen for some reason, and I think it has to do with the orientation of the Minnetonka district to Highway 7, just unconsciously throws itself toward the Chaska district more easily. We need to make, because of that you need to make a conscious effort to make change. So we are doing that and will continue to do that. Loose dogs_ I mean, did you see the survey that went out in the brochure? The community survey. Loose dogs is highly rated so there's plenty of loose dogs and we'll address the issue as we do every year and I will work cooperatively with Public Safety in that regard. On the Highway 101, the trail. I discussed that with Charles Folch, the City Engineer today. That study is being conducted as part of a public works project. The Highway 101 realignment. That is the reason for the engineering department and the consulting engineering firm working on that carrying out this process. I was surprised to find out that this meeting was called and that, in working with Councilmember Senn, that he said he would distribute this meeting information notice. I expressed my concern that when.we're taking on something of this magnitude that has been talked about for so long and that is this important to so many people, that we should confirm with Councilmember Senn that he would be distributing it to every effected person and if he did not think he could accomplish that, that we should carry out a mailing identical to what we do for every other issue. You send it to the affected party. Affected parties and if that means all the people who live in those cul-de-sacs and developments that front onto TH 101 highway, I would think they'd all be interested. So I agree with your comments in that regard and I'll follow up on that tomorrow. Andrews: I would say if you cannot confirm that that mailing went out, that I would seriously recommend you cancel that meeting and reschedule it. Because that meeting is going to generate a full house here for properties... There will be a large number of people very supportive but Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 23, 1993 - Page 42 ....." there will be an equally vocal group that will be very much against this. And not only from that part of the city but other areas too. And I just don't think the notice was adequate to really give people a chance to prepare. ~t is a very important issue too so I think most of the people that are cut off by Lotus Lake and along the east edge of Lotus Lake and North 'Lotus Lake have no way to really get back and forth between neighborhoods or facilities. I put together a letter that I was going to put out in my neighborhood tonight and somebody's going to get killed. ...it's going to happen but we really need to treat this the same way we would any other issue. If Mark didn't get this out properly...you can get all tangled up in all kinds of lawsuits about proper notification and so forth. So I guess I would think if you can't confirm it positively, it should be cancelled and rescheduled. Hoffman: Okay. Andrews: Oh incidentally. Can you communicate to me Todd what's going to happen for sure because I'm very much interested. If it's definitely going to happen on that Wednesday I need to know in the next couple days. Schroers: Any other commission member presentations? Roeser: I'd just like to bring up this notion of dogs. My favorite pet peeves. Having dogs on a leash is that just a polite way of saying that they're going to clean up after their dog or that it's on a leash? I mean isn't there some type of regulation about cleaning up or dogs aren't allowed in parks? -'" Hoffman: City ordinance says dogs are not allowed in city parks. Dogs on, there is a leash law in this city. There is not a pooper scooper, clean up law in this city. But the Public Safety I know has looked at that. In fact I have taken direction of the Commission to have them initiate that type of ordinance. Roeser: Would wholeheartedly favor that. Hoffman: I guess I'll check with them. The issue comes down to, it's another ordinance on the books but we're not going to have the dog police out there. Manders: It's hard to enforce... Hoffman: You bet. It gains some publicity and if we can get a little press out of it, then some people may people may take it to heart. Lash: I move to adjourn. Andrews: Second. Schroers: Well, we have the administrative packet yet and there is one thing in there. Very briefly that I'd like to mention however. It's quite important and I think that myself and hopefully the other members of the commission will officially like to congratulate Todd, Liz, Clare and -'" Anna on the arrival of their little brother. Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ March 23, 1993 - Page 43 Hoffman: Pressure's off for that boy. I, as well would just like to bring up. I think there's an important issue on the administrative packet under Lake Susan Hills West 9th Addition. Memorandum from myself to Jo Ann Olsen. At the Planning Commission, they asked that the Park and Recreation Commission take a look at some issues in regard to that 9th Addition. You remember the trees issue? We'll be bringing that to you as a preamble to the meeting on the park map on the 13th. So we have the configuration of Outlot E. That configuration has been mapped on the city's base maps since '88. You can look up there and see it. What the applicant is attempting to do is alter that to bring their ponds within their boundary lines. So they said well, fine we'll just make our boundary lines to change and they called me and sent me a new map and said here. We're within our property. So that's an issue yet to resolved. A larger one is a swapping of parkland. They asked about why can't we just swap prairie Knoll Park, which is the open land area there between Dove Court and Audubon. Or excuse me, Powers Boulevard for the property which has trees on it. At first glance it looks fairly, like a nice deal but when you start talking that you have 4 or 5 homeowners who have bought a lot and invested in a house with the assumption that there's park and open space behind them, and then you're going to come in a city and administer a land swap that's affecting their property, you're simply going to appease one special interest group, the trees group and you're going to create another one to save the park or they sue the city, the court group. So it looks nice from the start. It may have been a good thing to look at ~. 7 years ago when this PUD was put together but it's a whole different ballgame today so you need to put some thought into that. You can start that process between now and 2 weeks. But you can I think start to see the scenario which would come up. That's it. Schroers: We've already had a motion to adjourn. Is there a second? Andrews: I'll second. Lash moved, Andrews seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim .,.....