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PRC 1993 11 16 ,.... CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING NOVEMBER 16, 1993 Prior to the regular agenda the Park and Recreation Commission met informally with high school aged youth representatives from School Districts #112 and #276. Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Larry Schroers, Fred Berg, Jan Lash, Jim Andrews, Jane Meger, Ron Roeser, and Jim Manders STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Program Specialist ,-~;:' APPROV AL OF MINUTES': Berg moved, Meger seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated September 28, 1993 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. "..... Hoffman: Jan did call in with two corrections on the 26th. She will be here sometime after 8:00. She had a final for a class. Those corrections are on page 52 and page 60. I noted them in the record. Schroers: Okay. Anything further? Roeser moved, Manders seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated October 26, 1993 as amended by Jan Lash on pages 52 and 60. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENT A TIONS: Hoffman: If I could make one on behalf of a couple. Charles Spevacek, 6474 Murray Hill Road. It's on the issue of a piece of property which is for sale. His wife contacted me last week. I drafted a letter which got lost in the paper shuffle upstairs. I called them this afternoon. They didn't receive my correspondence but I received their's. It's discussing a 2 acre parcel in the north ceQ/Ial portion of the city. To get your bearings. Highway 41 hits Highway 7 and then just to the east is the intersection of Murray Hill Road and Melody Hill Road. The property in question is right at that intersection. It's approximately 2 acres in 1"". 1 size. ...to the city facilities nearby would be Herman Field Park and then the comer of Pheasant Hill Park starts in that vicinity. This property directly abuts the school property which comes down something in this orientation. It also directly abuts a trailway -which runs from the street down past the reservoir that's in that location and onto the school property in that orientation. Last week I had an opportunity to go out and visit the property. It has a home currently on it and it is for sale. I wrote the price down on the memo which is lost somewhere upstairs but it's $160,000.00 so it's, my response to the Spevacek's was that it's really out of question for the amount of money it would take not only to acquire the property but then to remove the house, develop the 2 acre site into some sort of park. It would be a quarter of a million dollars or in excess of that. When you have a facility which is not under the jurisdiction of the city, certainly a recreational facility as considered by the city when you have the Minnetonka school site right adjacent to it. With the trailway running from Murray Hill Road right into the school site. So I'll ask if you have any questions of the commission. If not, I will forward your response to the Spevacek's. They are residents, just FYI. They reside at the end of the cul-de-sac.!'; ...."" Schroers: You know it looks like a nice location and the trail abutting it there to the school makes it desirable and I think it's a nice 2 but I definitely share your sentiments. I don't think we can afford to spend ~ quarter of a million dollars on a 2 acre parcel there. Berg: Ditto. Andrews: Yep, I'll second that. Schroers: I think it's unanimous. I think you could carry it back and say we're sorry, we can't capitalize on the opportunity. ....." Hoffman: Obviously the sale price is that high due to the availability for splitting it off...four lots. Schroers: Okay. Do you need anything more than that Todd? Hoffman: No, not on that item. COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT TO CHANGE THE LAND USE DESIGNATION FROM RESIDENTIAL LOT DENSITY TO RESIDENTIAL MEDIUM DENSITY AND CONCEPTUAL PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT FOR 26 SINGLE FAMILY ZERO LOT LINE UNITS ON 13.47 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED RSF AND LOCATED ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF HIGHWAY 7 BETWEEN WASHTA BAY ROAD AND ARBOR DRIVE. SPINNAKER WHARF. BOYER BUILDING CORPORATION. Todd Hoffman presented tii'e staff report on this item. 2 .....", ,... """ ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16. 1993 John Blumentritt: To the members of Chanhassen. thank you. My name is John Blumentritt and I represent the applicant. Boyer Building Corporation. He did a wonderful job. if thal's any consolation. The site plan before you for your review is our conceptual plan. We're just now starting the pun application with the city and as Tom had indicated to you, this is a clustered development that we are targeting towards the empty nester market We have a project quite similar to this right now in the city of Shorewood thal' s, welllel' s see. Are we about 60% completed. The project is sold out but we are going through the final construction process and il's been a wonderful development to be involved with. But this one is a property that Boyer Building Corporation has become involved with. It's owned by Joe Boyer Sr. I believe he has been the owner Bf the property for the last 20 years. And as everyone probably here is aware, it seems t6 be that last empty piece between a lot of what is otherwise single family construction right now. To the north. as I mentioned, is Highway 7. To the south is Lake Minnewashta and we're on that northeasterly edge of Minnewashta. I hope each of you have had a chance to review our summary and narrative but if not. I'll try to give you just a real quick encapsulation of what we have. Again we know that this right now is going through the comprehensive plan amendment. Unfortunately we weren't delighted to hear when Kate Aanenson had indicated to us that within the low density comp plan right now it does not allow for clustered housing. which is obviously what we wanted to have. And because of that issue we need to then say. il's time to see if not only we can go through the planning process. The planned unit development process, but also the fact that we would need to then amend the comp plan along with this. to let this type of clustered neighborhood kind of development happen. The site. as mentioned, is 13.47 acres. We are only proposing 27 units so it in essence is about 1/2 acre per residence. We felt that thal's fairly generous but it's because the site is encumbered with some wetlands that we just simply don't want to touch or mitigate. Lel's see. There seems to be some other little miscellaneous things that we're now trying to work out with the planning staff too. We originally came in with about a 37 unit development but a lot of that was going to affect this property and an acquisition of an adjacent piece of property. But it seemed like a lot of the difficulties as we actually saw them. Now the difficulties of the development along the channel seemed to rise. We simply said perhaps it would be better for us to simply pass on this piece of property. Pull off of this area and simply concentrate everything that's on the buildable land. We really think, again I think the summary narrative is fairly self explanatory and I would be willing to answer any additional questions that came up. Mter reading Mr. Hoffman' s report I guess, I received it yesterday' a little bit late but we also have some questions and perhaps the commission could help us out in some of those things. The comprehensive trail plan I guess, there's just some issues that I had mentioned to Mr. Hoffman about the fact that the very northerly edge of this property is actually in Shorewood and I realize that there'd be some issues of resolving that placement of the trail and getting the community of Shorewobd to cooperate with us. We are a little bit unfamiliar with what the overall status of the comp trail plan would actually be too. How the land is being 3 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ...."", acquired and I think then there's some miscellaneous questions that we had. Assuming that right-of-way is needed, I'm hoping that that's not something that would be deducted from our overall land that we would be using through this application process. It seems like there's always a jockeying of gross square footage and net square footages that we're a little bit sensitive to. How the trail fee is actually assessed. I need to have a cleared understanding of how much that would actually affect the cost towards each of these units. And then would the trail construction be something that the developer may have an option to perhaps participate in and have completed as opposed to having to assess the property. There's just some of those little miscellaneous questions that we would actually have yet that those are I assume are some things that we can still w~rk out Otherwise we'll just open it up for any additional questions that you might have ~o. Schroers: I think for the benefit of some of us who are not builders and developers, clarification of a couple of terms might be nice. Empty nester. Cluster housing. Are we ~g townhomes? ; John Blumentritt: In essence, I'll show you. We have one other thing that I'm going to show you too. A good generic question though. This is photographs, and we took these yesterday so please pardon the quality of these things but this is the Gideon Cove project that is under construction right now. And these are two units that are joined together as townhomes. You're correct. And in essence the thing that we're going to be doing differently from this, is we'll actually be separating these units. In plan right now we're going to be separating these units where the touch factor, if you would, from home to home would be via a deck that we're seeing. .....-I Schroers: Like a common entry area and one goes one way and one goes the other? John Blumentritt: Correct. Exactly. That type of an idea and again, we can't age discriminate but it seems like, what we call the active adult, the gray haired set are the principle people that we're actually marketing for. Andrews: I have a couple comments. Not question as much as comments but just reading about the plan here as it's proposed. I have a concern about how this might look from the lake as far as the tightness of the spacing, as well as the request for a 26 boat dock. If that were to be accommodated on the main part of the lake, I think that could be ratherrmonolithic. I know that coming from a neighborhood association where it was a heck of a battle on our own lake and I think you'll get fair treatment but I think you'll find that your plans are ambitious for a dock. .f John Blumentritt: I understand that. We have, and again I've been working with Kate 4 ......" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ......" could say, you know I question the overall value from the lake looking at it but in reality, how that site campus wants to work is really a function of the design that the residents would like to have. Andrews: You may be able to accomplish that by some staggering of frontage look and design features. I mean granted, I understand the constraints you're dealing with and I think it's a good concept and a concept that's needed for our aging community to be honest, but the visual impact is going to be important. You know screening. Berming. Those things are going to be very important because this is going to be a very dense area as compared to most . of the rest of the lake. ..k'" John Blumentritt: Well we're trying to assign in essence a building pad area of 50 feet for each of the homes so if you simply would go 50, 50, 50, 50 on some sort of modulation on that basis, that's about how this is laid out. I realize it looks a little bit dense and perhaps it is because we did want to pull some of these things together. Therefore leaving on the perimeter far greater openings and there are some very nice spots of the site that we wanted to keep as a wildlife area. So hopefully, we're trying to keep some of it real pristine features. The wetland area. The channel, keeping that fairly open. You're right the demand on this, they'll also be able to view the lake. Manders: Is there any chance that eastern portion on the other lot would be developed in a similar nature? -' John Blumentritt: I would like to be able to gaze into a crystal ball also because we're really seeing a tremendous need for this type of housing. I mean face it, I'm up at the same age and a lot of us are too, that the big home, there's a lot of folks with houses that are now available. It's the people that ridding themselves of that and saying, my children are gone. It's time to now get into something that's more of a manageable, functional, square footage and where are these houses right now. Where are they? And very frankly, a lot of these are, it's not a desirable to necessarily keep it next to a freeway, although we have one that's here. That's not well, we'll deal with that. It's something that they'd like to still see these happen on the nice sites and this is one of the last areas that we see along this spot that potentially could take advantage of the future of the lake and take advantage of the type of people that want to live here and certainly just be a wonderful contributor to the community here. Schroers: I certainly understand the need for that type of housing. I find that quite attractive myself but actually I feel that we're getting a little bit off course here and we're dealing with planning issues more than park and rec issues. So to move things along here. I think that you had a couple question' that you wanted answered in regard to how our park and trail dedication fees worked and I think if I could ask Mr. Hoffman to explain that for us, he can 6 .."., ,-., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 tell you how that works. Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers: The park and trail fees are assessed at the time of building permit application for each unit...I would assume that each of these would have a building permit for each unit. Current fees would be $600.00 per unit for park and $200.00 for trail. And those fees would change, or be susceptible to change at the first of the year, of each year. So January 1 they would change. The other question had to deal with, if there were any easements that were even pursued along Highway 7, would that change the square footage of your property. The answer is no, it would not. Schroers: Okay. Anything else? ~:-' John Blumentritt: ...you were addressing that. I'm saying it seems like something in the words. .. ,. Hoffman: Yeah, speaking of the update to the comprehensive plan. Highway 7...Park Commission as well. Highway 5 is obviously a corridor which is identified on our comprehensive plan. Highway 7 is a different. It's kind of separated between two cities. r" However, the people north of the lake, because it represents a fairly large community, neighborhood of this city, are interested in getting a west parkway so they can access the parkway and they're also interested in getting east so they can access the future trail on TH 41 and come down Highway 41 into the regional park. So it's my belief that Highway 7 is a corridor that should be maintained. I can't tell you what the highway frontage is there. I've not had a conversation with MnDot in that regard. Andrews: I'd sure like to see us get a 20 foot easement. Maybe it never develops but geez, how many times have we gone, geez I wish we only could have or should have. Hoffman: As an insurance. I think if you look at the layout... John Blumentritt: I believe there is currently a water utility easement that's approximately that width. That is now right on the north of the edge of the property line so that may be something that...you would want to use as an obvious space that. Hoffman: Have you contacted the city of Shorewood? John Blumentritt: We've only briefly talked with the City of Shorewood because there was another proposal that was on Eureka on the opposite side that was looking into Chanhassen's, using our site as a drainage! area and because of that, even though we were nicely provided a pond up there that we are wanting to use for it, mostly our hard cover area. I know they ,-.,- 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....." wanted to use that as a...area too but that frontage is...So other than that. to talk about the corridor in effect. no. We haven't. Schroers: I don't know if we actually have it identified on our map the trail plan but I know that we have discussed in the past that it would be favorable from our point of view to be able to continue the trail from Lake Ann west and up and all the way around past Highway 7. We've talked about that before. To connect it with the parkway road and be able to just in simple terms, to make a loop from downtown to the western boundary of the city and back around. So I would think that it would definitely be desirable to acquire an easement there. And I, believe that that is what staff is recopunending. ,~.;.:' Andrews: Yeah, I guess to go further even on it than that. This is an empty nester neighborhood. Walking is one of the most popular activities. John Blumentritt: I was going to menti9n that. Over at Gideons we have the benefit of a Hennepin railroad site that runs right next to this site and again, the walking to downtown Excelsior is half a mile from this site and to bike the other way to the westerly part of the state is an opportunity if one seems so inclined. And it's wonderful. I mean the people there really, really. Roeser: I bike that all the time. It's a neat trail. ....", John Blumentritt: Yes, isn't that a tremendous trail? Roeser: You can go all the way out to Carver Park on it. John Blumentritt: Correct. It's a wonderful contribution so I think that'd... Andrews: Is your intent to offer off street sidewalks here then for your folks? John Blumentritt: I don't think that we're going to put sidewalks in at this particular point. It seems like the private drive effect. and we don't see a tremendous amount of traffic that's going to be here so I think most of the walking would just be a street. except we're talking about maybe, and this is only in the conceptual stage right now. The ability to come down and enjoy this area. So we'll have walking areas but as sidewalk or really intensive type of a walking situation, I know that's something that's discussed. I think we'd like to see the residents really step forward and say that would be part of the community that we'd like to see. 'f Andrews: You may want to at least consider, if we do...20 foot on the north, to have a 8 ....." ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 linkage off your little driveway directly... John Blumentritt: Any other questions? Thank you. Schroers: Thank you very much. I think we've covered this pretty well. Personally I'm in favor of some diversity in housing in the city. I think it looks nice and at this point in time I guess that, unless there's further concerns or comments, that I'd be willing to entertain a motion on this. Andrews: Do we have a motion? ... '~40!."" Schroers: I think we do. Berg: I'd like to move that we accept full park fees in lieu of land dedication at the rate in force upon building permit application. And that we ensure sufficient land is available along Highway 7 to accommodate any future non-vehicular trail routes. And that we also accept full trail fees in lieu of trail construction at the rate in force upon building permit application. r-. Schroers: Is there a second? Meger: I'll second. Berg moved, Meger seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept full park fees in lieu of land dedication at the rate in force upon building permit application. And that we ensure sufficient land is available along Highway 7 to accommodate any future non-vehicular trail routes. And that we also accept full trail fees in lieu of trail construction at the rate in force upon building permit application. All voted in favor and the motion carried. SITE PLAN REVIEW OF A 64.132 SQUARE FOOT SUPERMARKET. A 26.100 SQUARE FOOT RETAIL BUILDING AND A 7.000 SQUARE FOOT COMMERCIAL BUILDING ON 13.11 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED BG. GENERAL BUSINESS DISTRICT AND LOCATED ON LOT 4. BLOCK 1. WEST VILLAGE HEIGHTS 2ND ADDITION. T.F. JAMES COMPANY. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Andrews: Just to clarify Thdd. You're saying that the sidewalk is a required part of the plan anyway? ~ 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 """" Hoffman: Correct. Typically in our downtown commercial district, sidewalks are required and it's obviously as a developer of the site, you want sidewalks... Schroers: Okay. I would be in favor of moving to approve the aforementioned recommendation. Is there a second? Andrews: I'll second. Schroers moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept full park fees in li~~ of land dedication at the rate in force upon building permit application. Also to ac~t full trail fees in lieu of trail construction at the rate in force upon building permit application. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ~ REVIEW METROPOLITAN MOSOUITO CONTROL DISTRICT ACTIVITIES WITHIN CITY PARKS. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Andrews: Would there be any chance we could make a motion that this is our permanent policy, unless we decide to change it, rather than having this be revisited on an annual basis? ...." Hoffman: Sure. Andrews: Okay. Lash: As part of the staff efforts to coordinate volunteer groups, it seems like one of the things we talked about was...some kind of birds that eat mosquitoes. Schroers: Martins. Lash: Martins. Have we got any of those? How about the seniors? I know they're doing some woodworking things. Lemme: They did a bluebird trail at Lake Ann. Hoffman: They did a bluebird trail. We put in money Jor... '4 Schroers: I think that Janet also. I would like to see encouragement of Scout projects or 10 ...." ,-.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 senior citizens or other interested groups in the community that wanted to do something and encourage them to build martin houses and that sort of thing for Lake Ann and possibly Lake Susan and Rice Marsh. Other appropriate areas would be nice. Lash: How about we could even contact the shop classes at the junior high level. It could be extra credit projects or something. All the materials are there. They actually, one of the things they make is a bird house. I don't know what kind. Audience: They have a trash pick-up program too in the parks. They pick up all the trash . containers that harbor... {.~' ~~.' Schroers: Basically what we're saying is alternative control measures to chemicals. But I guess I'm happy with the way things are at this point. Unless anyone sees a need or a valid reason for changing anything, I would be ready to entertain a motion too. I think it's good to bring it up every year just to $ee new developments and what information. What community response we've had during the year. You know how many complaints we've had about control measures or how many complaints we've had about mosquitoes themselves and in an unusual year we may have some issues to address so I think if we can just blast through it "..... once a year like this, I don't have a problem with that. Andrews: I move that we adopt our current policies and review again in one year. Schroers: Is there a second? Manders: Second. Andrews moved, Manders seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission adopt the current policies of mosquito control within the city of Chanhassen as they are, and to review them again in one year. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Eric Rivkin: I wanted to know if there was an opportunity to speak. Is it too late? Schroers: It's not too late if you keep it brief but our recommendation, it's too late to change our recommendation. Eric Rivkin: Well I wanted to... Schroers: All we're allowing is the briquettes at this point for the larvacide. ,( Eric Rivkin: Well since the last time, the opportunity was supposed to be given to me, and ,...... 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....." anybody else who called up to speak on behalf of the, the reason this is up for review is because of the briquettes. Not because it was taken as an issue last time and I did speak about it... Schroers: Yau can share your information with us. Eric Rivkin: Well I felt that I wanted to officially add the briquettes and the BTI to the list of banned chemicals. Mosquito control chemicals to the parks as an issue here and get a vote on it. To add. There's no call for the public hearing, or public comment. Hoffman: Can we get your name for the record. Eric Rivkin: Eric Rivkin...Steller Court. Berg: Well what we've reco\lllllended is the policy that's already in existence that we see that we're happy with that for another year. If we're opening up another issue, I don't see where that's a problem with discussing that now. \ Eric Rivkin: ...motion, your comments to your motion...! also would like to know if there's been any motion to permanently ban the adulticides and the larvacides? Not bring it up... The City of Maplewood and Minneapolis...! don't see why Chanhassen can't do the same. Since the 2 years, I've done some research and have got some new things to bring to your attention that would I think cause a motion, give you cause to have a motion to ban them currently. Ban them all. I'll start with the adulticides. Two chemicals that they use is Scourge and Punt. Both are synthetic...One is rysmethrine and the other is permethrine. Both are synthetic derivatives and classified as...many studies have been done in Europe and the United States that conclusively, scientifically, without a doubt say that there's extensive harm to the environment from these chemicals. One thimble full, the New York State Department of Health has an official, Dr...., the Commissioner of Health has reviewed through an environmental impact study in the Andirondeks where scourge...had the highest cancer rates in the Andirondeks counties and they attributed it, starting in 1991, they attributed it to the spraying of mosquito controls. And...high level of scourge. He did an EIS and in 1985 they finally concluded through, on this newsletter, that the health hazards to the pesticides were worst than the threat of any kind of human disease or of course annoyance isn't a human health threat. And they banned scourge. Now our Mosquito Control District, that's one of their two chemicals that they use, and for the record I can submit these letters from Dr. A... There's a group of doctors who contributed to a study with credentials...work session on chemically induced alterations...and these are studies that have been done with doctors from all over the world. This wID be in your packet too. One sentence here says we are certain, underline the word certain...that the synthetic pyrethroids, resmethrine and pyrethrin included ..."", 12 .....-I. ~ " I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 disrupt the...systems of animals, including humans...persistent. They are persistent. They are biocumulative, which means they'll build up in the soil. And they'll build up in your body. And I have an actual test report from a boy who had brain lesions. He lives in the Andirondeks where it got heavily sprayed and his test results are in this packet. They found traces of xylene in his blood. Xylene is a compound that's an inert ingredient in scourge. They also are certain that wildlife populations are already affected by these compounds. So we know they have reproductive effects. They can cause cancer...as far as the environment is concerned, one thimbleful of scourge is enough to kill trout in an average one acre shallow pond. Scourge is applied 3 times as...and in effect they banned scourge from the Andirondek Mountains. We're -going through an active program of education. There are several letters from doctors who state unequivocally that these adulticides, well documented that they have problems with people with allergies. It's very common and people...and it has a real disruptive...As far as the larvacides are concerned. PCI, which is considered the most benign of the larvacides used by the Mosquito Control District. The Mosquito District spent $403,000.00 at this point. TI\is is an announcement by the Mosquito Control District that since this last meeting, that...did a study in the State of Minnesota. Evaluation of the effects of mes...BTI in non target species in communities in the Metropolitan Control District wetlands...nesting birds. We don't have any business putting in chemicals into our wetlands, or in our environment. You should also note that in our local newspaper, that the Thomas Larson of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, he's the person in charge of our wildlife refuge down here in southern Chanhassen on the river. They have no plans to allow the Mosquito Control District. They've never allowed mosquito control in there and now that they're expanding the Mississippi Parkway, his statements are, his fear is that the toxins affect other insects and eventually work through the food chain harming ducks and other wildlife. We don't feel at this time it is proven, it's proven without a doubt to have a negative impact on the species said Larson. As long as there are some doubts about what other organisms might be impacted, we've got to err on the side of those other species. I think we should share that same sentiment and ban all these larvacides from Chanhassen parks at this time. I also talked to one of the world's foremost expert on mosquitoes. Dr. Charles Morris of the Mosquito Research Facility in Gainesville, Florida and he's very well aware of all the different chemicals and larvacides used in mosquito control. He's in charge of a $70 million program in Florida for mosquito control and he knows all the effects and knows all the studies. And I talked to him on the phone and he said if our, any mosquito control district using adulticides in a significant way in order to reduce annoyance, he said the larvacides program is ineffective. And it is ineffective. We still have mosquitoes all over the place and it's not doing any good. We should just stay on the side of environmental safety and human safety and just get rid of these. There's also a report...which is a chemical with the brand name of the metheprine chemical in the briquettes. This lady who has Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, has illnesses resulting from...TIfere's also bills in our State legislature that will allow cities to opt out of the district. Comments from our own City Council, I will just summarize it in one 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 --' sentence. Tom Workman, Ursula Dimler at the time, and even the Mayor had commented that how can we get out of the tax district. It's a waste of money. We could save Chanhassen residents $80,000.00 if we asked our commissioner who sits on the Mosquito Control Commission to reduce the levy by that amount. It sounds like a great idea but then we did, they did reduce the levy overall from $10 million to $9 million for this 7 county wide area. But it's still impossible for a particular municipality to opt out of the district We're still being taxed for services we don't see. And that's not right. So we've got two legislators right now that have introduced bills to change that so you cannot, a district cannot be taxed. So all of Chanhassen. Maplewood is going to do that. Minneapolis is already doing that. And so is Lakeville and a couple other...So...again, I would like to propose here that we ban, or propose to ban the larvacides...and all M6squito Control District chemical program and apply the alternative method that you mentioned here and keep that an active program and I'm active in it I'm active with...and I've offered my own time to help with it...Boy Scouts about tree, building houses, whatever...trash pick-up program and also a motion to do it permanently so this doesn't keep coming up again and wasting your time. I don't think we're going to get any complaints about that. If anybody'sgot complaints bad enough, they'll come forward and it will be an issue but I don't see why it would be practical to keep it up as a non-issue all the time. Schroers: Thank you Mr. Rivkin. We appreciate all of your work and research into this and you did say that you'd make that information available for staff. ......" Eric Rivkin: Yeah I will. I've got some copies to make yet so, do you want what I have no or would you like to take it... Schroers: Well what I would like to do, or my suggestion is that you present the material for staff, to staff for their review and have them come back to us with a recommendation on that material and at that point we'll move on it. Lash: I'd be interested in the legislators who have drafted the bill. Do you know their names? Eric Rivkin: ...she's from Hennepin County. I'm not sure. Lash: Okay. But they're not from our. Eric Rivkin: They're not from our district but our commissioner...our new County Commissioner who volunteer to be on the Mosquito Control Commission...so he's in favor of all this. .f 14 -' ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Lash: If this comes back to us Todd, I guess I'd be interested in us having a discussion on, if there'd be some way for us to support, as a commission, that bill. If it means supporting the County Commissioner or sending a letter to the legislature or whatever. Hoffman: Okay. I'll pass on... Berg: In all fairness I think we should invite... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) ... Schroers: It would be but that would kind~6f re-open the whole issue again. I mean they're going to have information to counteract the information that Mr. Rivkin has provided us here. We already know that. I mean it's a back and forth situation and I think that I would just like staff to review that and get their feelings and present it to us in the form of a recommendation. That way we can move along with this instead of opening up a battle ground that's going to go back and forth and ultimately end up in the same way anyway but it's going to take a lot of precious stuff, park and rec time, both from staff and from the commission that I don't feel that we need to spend on it. I""" Manders: I have one brief comment. And I assume you're from Chanhassen. I'd just like to say that it's refreshing to see somebody take this kind of interest in this particular issue. I personally appreciate it. Andrews: I've got one more comment and that is that last year at this time we were reluctant to do a total ban. I think our reasoning for that was that we wanted to see how things were after a year. Based on really refreshing me on the information you gave us last year plus providing some new information, I would support the idea of also banning larvacides and revisiting that issue in one year from now and see if there are any significant complaints. Based on the statistics that the Control District provided, there is not significant data to show that they have an effective program or a true need and I think it would be prudent for us to cut back further and see if there again is any response from our citizens or any other health needs that create a need. And again, that would be erring on the side of our environment which is something we're in charge of doing. Eric Rivkin: I think we could use the $95,000.00 for something else. . Schroers: I think my yard is evidence that there is no program in effect that's working... Thanks a lot Eric. .f Hoffman: If the commission's interested, the new Carver County Commissioner who is on r' 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ~ the Board is John Siegfried...Perhaps we could bring this back in January huh Larry? Schroers: No, I don't care if it comes back in December but I would just like it come back in the form of a recommendation from the staff that we can just move on and don't have to go through 2 and 3 hour dissertations over a matter of a couple meetings to ultimately arrive at the same conclusion anyway. I mean we all know that we're not in favor of putting chemicals in our parks and if, what my interest is, is that staff review this to see that it's valid. That it's coming from a reliable source and if you get a feeling that the information is. Andrews: Hooey. (~~. -:'!.,b.' Schroers: Yeah. To the point that it would justify some further action on our part and I think that if staff feels that way, you certainly get our support Lash: But I support Fred's motion there a little bit too that it is a very controversial issue. And I'm not necessarily in favor of having another debate. Lengthy debate over it but if there is some type of written material that the MMCD would want to provide to us in our packet to review, I'd be interested in seeing that. I would not be interested in entertaining long oral dissertations from both parties. Schroers: I can tell you right now that since Mr. Rivkin had this opportunity to address us this evening, that they would want the same. And then Mr. Rivkin will want a rebuttal. And then it will be the same. I mean you were here, you know. We're opening up the whole can of worms again. ......" Hoffman: I don't think we're going to spoils the holidays with it. Probably bring it back... Schroers: Okay. Can we move on? FOCUS STUDY: PARK DEFICIENT ZONES 3 AND 7. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Schroers: The question that I have Todd is, what can you tell us about the proposed Wal- Mart right on that northeast comer of TH 5 and TH 41. Isn't that what was? Lash: Fleet Farm. Schroers: Fleet Farm I m&m. 16 ....."fIll 11"""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Andrews: That was really discouraged by Highway 5. They basically tried to design the road systems to they couldn't do it Schroers: But they already, they own the property. Andrews: Yeah, but it's never been zoned the right way for this... Schroers: I guess ultimately my question is, are we going to have an opportunity to acquire park, active use parkland from that development if it should come in? And then enough adjacent property to get the active use areaJhat we're looking for there. I mean it seems to me that that's really going to be our only o1>o.on up there is maybe a combination of using some of the dedication that we get from Opus in conjunction with acquisition of development in that northeast quadrant to acquire suitable acreage for an active development. Or an active use facility. And that probably the, just from my visual observations, that that land would be more desirable for active use .than the Opus property would. Hoffman: Again the recommendation would be that you identify, the commission identifies a specific parcel. And how large you would like that parcel to be and then we would have .1"""'" that, my goal is by the spring of this year to have our comprehensive park plan, so we can map that and then it goes out to the landowners and they're selling property, the perspective buyers know that the city has a land use they want. It will be retained for park space and then it comes down to correct, an acquisition that obviously in your case would be through an outright cash purchase but some of it could be dedicated. Lash: I have two questions. First one being, do you have some kind of an estimation for us, how much property you think would be an adequate amount? Hoffman: That's a question, typically in the comprehensive plan, you know it listed community parks at 25 to 50 acres. It depends on what you want to get done...37 acres. Lake Ann is 100 acres. Lake Susan is 30+ acres. So if you're looking at a community level, you're looking at 25-30 acres. 15 acres that Opus was giving for 2 ballfields, I don't know that that... Lash: Okay. So we'd have to figure a minimum of 25 acres you figure? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: And my second question. When I'm looking at the map, the big wetland right in the center. Now is that the wttland that the Song property and the Dolejsi property separates or kind of incorporates so is the Dolejsi property already being developed? Is that right to the 11"""'" 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 .....", left of it and the Song property is right to the right of it? Or are those both north of this? Hoffman: Both north of this. This is another little wetland that comes down. There's a whole larger wetland to the north. Both of those... Lash: Okay. So right now none of the property that you have shown here has come in for development? Hoffman: No. It essentially cannot be because it's in that study area outside the MUSA line. Andrews: I know in the Highway 5 grou~;:we looked at this. One of the reasons we did not guide that Fleet Farm for active park was we thought, likely there'd be litigation if we forced them not to have some sort of quasi-commercial development We were trying to keep a Fleet Farm out of there but I guess we thought well, if we looked at an office-institutional, or maybe a medium density or residential, we could maybe get away with that. But there was some pretty intense discussion between Fleet Farm and the Highway 5 Task Force I should say. And apparently some years back there were some, I don't know if I'd call it promises but discussions at the city level that led Fleet Farm to believe that this was almost a done deal. So they, nothing's happened yet but it sure sounds like if we try to guide this to park, we could be into a fight where they may fight us to keep us from doing it. ......" Hoffman: I don't think there would be much justification in pursuing land right at the corner of TH 41 and Highway 5. I think moving further to the east on property which would. Andrews: It'd be cheaper. Hoffman: Lot cheaper and it's currently agricultural... Schroers: The old Bender Farm is what I'm thinking about. Is east of the property and, excuse me for interrupting but I think in order to identify this on the comprehensive plan, probably the best way to pursue this I think is for interested commissioners to accompany staff. Gain permission to walk on, look on the property. Actually get out there on site and see what of the property that's yet undeveloped lends itself best to being an active use area with avoiding problems of extensive grading and also what areas and just physically look at it and identify it and amount of property that we are talking about, these smaller farms in the area were generally split up into 40's or 60's or 80 acres and I would think that we would maybe want to try to identify a 40. Just identify a 40 acre site. Andrews: I think that limits it to 2 choices. 18 .....", ,..,. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Lash: Right. We've got the one on the west and then one that's sandwiched between the frontage road and Highway 5 but we've got the problem with the group home right in the middle of that one. That one would be the one that would probably be the most economical land cost wise but with the group home right in there, that's going to tie our hands... Roeser: Does that group home split the property? Hoffman: Yes. Roeser: Right down the middle? (-..; .-!..!-' Hoffman: You can see their outline of their lot there. Lash: Are those the two straight lines on either side? The rectangle. ,I Hoffman: Yeah. Lash: That's their property? How much is there just to the east of it? ,"'" Hoffman: Probably about 15 or 15+ acres. The total area is 40 acres in there. They have 10 acres so you can see there's probably about 15 to the right and 8, 7 or 8 to the left. Lash: So what if we went to the west of their property line and went all the way over to where Fleet Farm is? But that incorporates kind of a big wetland. Andrews: There's a street stub in there...where the right turn on, right turn off is going to have the Opus there, the plan had a right turn on and right turn off on the opposite side of the highway. Hoffman: ...you can see the driving range there. The boundary to the far east and just identify that entire site there. That entire 40 acres and pursue...things start to happen. At the time... Andrews: I like that site being as it's, first of all you're getting closer to residential areas where they can get more access and use of it It also is close enough to the school site where you might have potential coordinated use with the school site again, possibly. Plus again it's about the only viable piece that's to their use. Lash: I like the access. 'f ,..... 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....."" Andrews: Yeah, and it's got good access. Lash: From the frontage road from rn 5 or rn 41. Schroers: Do you need some formal action from us in order to identify that site? Roeser: What area are you talking about? Andrews: The Galpin/fH 5 comer. Lash: Where it says retain canopy trees. S~e that right by the group home? Schroers: Do we need a legal description of the property in order to specify exactly what it is? / Andrews: Does the Bluff Creek cut right through there, or on the edge of that? The eastern edge of that? Hoffman: No, that'd be to the north. Andrews: There's also... """"" Schroers: How do you want to describe the area? Hoffman: As far as? Schroers: I mean as far as identifying it in order to make a motion to incorporate that into our master park plan. Andrews: I'll do it. Put together a motion if you want it. We identify, I move we identify as our preferred site the northwest comer of the GalpinffH 5 intersection and approximately 40 acres to the west of Galpin. Schroers: Is there a second? Lash: To the west, are you talking about the west of the mini-putt? Roeser: We're talking about west of the golf course right, or the golf driving range? 'f Andrews: Starting from the comer of Galpin and rn 5 and running, going west for 20 -' ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 approximately 40 acres. You're going to need approximately both parcels to get 40. We probably will be short even with that Manders: I mean is there some advantage that you see being so close to the school? I mean personally I'm thinking that there should be some consideration more towards the west, towards that wetland that juts down. Andrews: That whole, if you look at the driving range plus the parcel to the east Now to the east of the group home. Those two parcels together are about the size that we would need. (.~. t(.', Manders: Yeah, but we're not talking about pulling in 40 acres for this whole park. I think we were talking 25 or something and you wanted to identify a 40 acre area to work in but not necessarily 40 acres for the park. / Lash: Minimum of 25. Schroers: You know if possible you'd like to leave yourself that option because if it works .,......, out, you would rather have 40 acres than 25 if it can be done. Andrews: That doesn't mean it has to be active use from border to border. You do have an adjacent Bluff Creek access. You do have a trail access there. Lash: We've got the, it looks like there's a heavy canopy of trees in that area that would be preserved so that would not be active park. I guess if we identified the whole thing, we'd have to figure out how much it is completely and then we have the freedom that if the group home stays the group home and something cannot happen in the future enough for us to work with that area, and if something were to happen with the golf range, the driving range, then we've got that freedom. Or if the driving range stays the driving range but the group home site opens up, then we've got that H we identify the whole thing, we can go either way. What we figure for sure we can score on is maybe the area between the two and then if we identify both of the other areas, that leaves us flexible to either go east or west Andrews: Plus we've always seen on this park board issue that it's always easier to cut back space than to try to find more. I mean it's financially harder and harder to get Roeser: I think 40 acres is fine. But I just don't think that golf range will ever open up. Lash: It probably won't .f 1"""'. 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....",' Roeser: No, John's sitting up there. Hoffman: His retirement.. Schroers: So anyway, I don't think it would conflict with the school because the intended uses would be totally different The school is, this is going to be. Manders: I don't know about saying conflicting but I'm just thinking, you've got two fairly major areas real close to each other and I'm wondering the idea of doing that It seems to me that you've got Lake Ann not that muc~,iurther and you've got a huge, and maybe that's the objective. ,~..' Andrews: I could see some advantages though too. I mean I've been to some large soccer tournaments and I can see where if you've got 8 fields down at the school and you've got another 8 or 10 fields kitty CQI'Iler across the highway, it'd be really nice to have a facility capable of holding a tournament. Or softball tournament. same thing. Schroers: And also with all this development The way it's setting up, I mean we've got parks running lineal east and west, up and down both sides of Highway 5 and that's really a nice break up. Sporadic break-up of all the development and stuff that's going in and it's nice to have, just every so often have an interruption of that development -' Manders: I agree that that interruption is useful but I'm still wondering if there isn't some possibility further west. I don't know what it is. Lash: I see your point Jim. Manders: I personally don't want to get it that close to the school...spaced out. I think you have a better growing area. Lash: I see your point of not being so close. I also see that it could be a convenience factor if, say you have ball the same night as one of your kids who's playing over at the elementary site. You can drop them off. You can go play. Manders: It isn't like you're going miles. Lash: No. No, but I can see both sides I guess. The problem is that if we go west. if we're looking at the west site, the one at TH 41, the 25 acres, that's about the only other one that's big enough. Do you know'\vhich one I'm talking about? 22 --' 11""'. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Manders: That's what I'm wondering. Maybe there isn't any space in there and if that's the case. Schroers: Okay, can we refocus. I mean what we're doing is identifying a perspective park property. We want to identify an area that's park deficient where we need space and that doesn't mean that we own it. That doesn't mean that we're locked into it. All we're doing is identifying an area and there was a motion started here and let's see if we get a second on that motion and where that goes...When you're talking west of that space, you really don't have anything available until you cross TH 41. Lash: The other site, my fear is that the lab'd cost there will be just exorbitant for us. And I agree Jim that that would probably be, maybe a better location because it would be farther from the school site and further from Lake Ann. And a Highway 41 access would be nice and a frontage road access would be nice. I mean there's some pluses there. I guess my fear is if we, if the land costs will" just keep us... Manders: Maybe answering this question. Is that entire comer that's blocked out 40 acres, or 41.5? Is that, to the west. ~. . Lash: From TH 41 to the wetland? Manders: This area out here. Hoffman: Yep. Manders: That whole area is 40 some acres. Hoffman: It's within that dark line, 41 and 25. This blob right here. Lash: So the topography Todd of these two sites, are you familiar with them? Do you know which you think would be better for grading? Hoffman: Topography would be very similar to most sites. One thing to consider is that the Task Force has identified as a very key goal as a part of retention of open space and visual breaks, as Chairman Schroers referred to, retaining some public ownership along Highway 5. So they would like to see that Highway 5 frontage be open space rather than be multi family apartments along the highway for a visual factor. And the site to the west has the benefit of those wetlands but if you were a developer of homesites, you would certainly see much more value in that west site bein~ the back of home sites on all those wetland areas. But again, that's a... r 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....""" Berg: To make an aesthetic point of view, when I see the...community and I see ballfields and a park I say to myself, there's a community that cares about the people that are living in that community. And to put them all together I think shouts that. And basically what I was hearing from the City Council last week, they're very concerned about what's going in along the Highway 5 corridor and it seems to me, I'd never put words in their mouth but it seems to me that'd be the kind of thing that they would endorse. Is having a central area in town where these athletic events can take place. Schroers: And so if you've got the Highway 5 corridor task force supporting you and the City Council supporting you and we've idep.tified what would be the best and most logical site of the only two that are available thert1,'Td say we're standing on pretty good ground, which brings me right back to Jim's motion. He made a motion. I'm asking for a second. Berg: Second. / Andrews moved, Berg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission identify as the preferred site for a community park as the northwest comer of the Galpin and Highway 5 intersection and approximately 40 acres to the west of Galpin. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Is there the opportunity that that would ever be a part of a TIP district or not? ....." Hoffman: Probably not, unless something would occur... OPEN SKATING RINK AND HOCKEY RINK SERVICE AREAS. Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item. Berg: I have a couple of questions Jerry. What's the cost of putting in and maintaining a hockey, or skating rink? Ruegemer: Todd might have a better idea possibly of that. Hoffman: Calculated that probably 3 years ago and it's an astoundingly high number. The work hours which go into these to be maintained and... Roeser: It isn't that much higher though whether it's a hockey rink or a skating rink. I mean it's the same amount of maintenance almost, right? 24 -' ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Hoffman: Almost. Hockey rinks take a little bit more maintenance because the snow, you need to remove the snow is a little more consumptive labor but they're fairly expensive and that's one of the reasons when residents call, I want an ice rink...waltz down with a little water and away we go. It doesn't necessarily happen that way. The other thing that's a concern of mine is, with that investment of labor and water, you'd be interested to know that , some cities have long debates over the use of water. Fresh water...People think that's a waste of metro resources. In fact some of the...Essentially we're taking drinking water right out of the well system and plopping it down on the ground...Is the value that we get off of...putting down a piece of ice, are we getting the value that we should be? Or should we have the warming houses that we talked about? Shou.ld we have the lights? And then should we spread these things out a little bit more and"make them more...They're probably much more usable in our winter season. Lash: So the ones, of the ones that we have now, is City Center the only one that has a warming house and lights? / Hoffman: Correct. ,....., Lash: All the rest of them are just..flooded rinks. Ruegemer: Open areas... Hoffman: And the fact is, the water frontage. We have a lot of water frontage. They get just as much use in the little ponds you find all over the city. They get just as much use. Roeser: We don't maintain any of those little ponds. Like Kerber. I can't say Chanhassen Pond. Kerber Pond. They don't ever plow that or maintain it as a rink at all. Hoffman: No. We maintain the one in Pheasant Hill, which is...you can see a deficient area. We maintained one there for a while right in this location. But now with the neighborhood park being located here, you can hypothetically draw a circle, service area such as that. If next year you would go ahead and act to construct...skating rink there. Lash: Since we haven't been having it there in the last couple of years or whatever, have you heard...from the residents in that area to start it again or have they really not missed it? Hoffman: No, they have to maintain it themselves. Lash: Dh they do. ,( .I"'" 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ~ Hoffman: The lights are still there and they go down and plow it. Schroers: This has been a low focus situation in Chanhassen so far but I believe that it's going to become a big issue, as it has everywhere else and that is liability. And when the city goes out and maintains an area on open water, they are presuming that it is safe. Okay. At the end of the season or whatever, because of snow banks around, it still looks like a maintained area, someone is going to misinterpret as to whether or not it's safe or not, and we could have an accident and it could ultimately come back on the city and I think that maintaining skating areas on open water could eventually be a liability issue and it's something that I wouldn't be that excited apout doing. And also that I think in terms of neighborhood park versus community parkfm regards to skating rinks, we need to look at it site by site. I think Meadow Green Park could accommodate an open skating area and a hockey rink. A smaller neighborhood park probably could not so I think you really need to take a specific look at each site to see what it will accommodate and how much it will disrupt the residents in the area with lighting and pucks banging on boards and that kind of thing and kind of take a common sense and practicality approach to it. Lash: Well and we need to think seriously, I mean in the winter how much time do people have during the daylight hours to go and ice skate? Not very many hours and is it worth the amount of money to maintain them for the few days that they can use it. So unless we're willing to invest in some lights and some warming houses, people are not going to want to go to skate if you can't go in to warm up. Or if the only time, you can squeeze in one hour after school, it's just not worth it. To get all bundled up. ..""" Schroers: So a site that would lend itself well to that would be like Meadow Green. You would have one at City Center here and one at Meadow Green and maybe one other area if there's space available at Lake Susan or someplace to just give it a bit of distribution or if it'd be North Lotus or whatever and maybe just try and maintain three key locations. Lash: Actually I was thinking more of the future sites that are coming on line. We've got one at City Center. That's the only one we have. Then maybe in the new school site, it's on the plan for that. Then if we end up with property just on the north side of TH 5, maybe that's something we'd want to plan on going in there. And the new property that we want to acquire eventually on the west side of Minnewashta Parkway. Those people out there are always pretty stranded in park from all of the facilities. So if we had something out west and then in the future site down at Bandimere. Berg: I thought we had this conversation once before. And my recollection is we looked at Carver Beach, Meadow Gt~n, City Center and North Lotus and we said, because Carver Beach and Meadow Green are so close to City Center, that we were going to explore the 26 """" , ,-, Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 possibility and you were talking about a light going in out at North Lotus. We were going to explore the possibility of putting a lighted hockey rink there and exploring it and seeing just exactly how much use it gets. Lash: I don't know if it was a hockey rink. Lighted. Just ice skating. Open skating wasn't it? With a warming house. Hoffman: North Lotus was going to be a hockey rink. The Commission did identify in your CIP about $6,000 per site for an electrical lights. Electrical service. It's just really one of those halogen lights. Providing enough ligJ~.ting for open skating. But then that was bumped from the budget and thus the satellite warrt1fug houses were never pursued either. Lash: But we did leave it for one didn't we? At North Lotus. Hoffman: Not that I recall. / Roeser: So are we talking maybe it's better to have good rinks with lights rather than all these little ones? ,-... Schroers: Yeah. Roeser: I think that is the better idea. Schroers: And I also think having open skating in conjunction with the hockey pretty much all in the same area so it can be flooded and maintained all in one site and keep it reasonably efficient. Andrews: I'm a person who grew up in this environment. I played hockey and went to outdoor rinks all the time and I guess my attitude is, let's go slow. I agree that we should do it at a good central location. People will drive to get there. It's really vitally important that there's a large separation between the open skating area and the hockey area because pucks fly and little kid hockey players, they will over run the free skating rink if it's near the hockey rink. An ideal situation is a warming with a hockey rink on one side and the free skating on the other side so you cannot play hockey on the free skate side without walking through that warming house. Those are the rinks that I remember that I liked the best. And lighting is critical. Like you said, one bit overhead halogen is enough for the open skate and some lighting for the hockey rink is needed too. But I guess I would like to see us try to do this on one more rink. See how it works. Go slow. This is going to cost us some money. Let's not. " ~ 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....., Hoffman: I would recommend we take on the...the neighborhood requests for rinks which, they day they come in and you can see why they're coming in. There's holes in the system at Chan Hills Park...work on that so they encompass a neighborhood. And the other one is the Lake Susan Hills, and it's identified at Sunset Ridge right there. So you encompass that neighborhood. Then we hold off on these three and then we focus our attention on getting lights and warming house out at this facility, which is going to be there in '95. Right now there's no money for lights or warming house. Roeser: I agree. Lash: I agree. ,~~~" Schroers: Sounds good. Lash: And you know, if people are requesting rinks in their neighborhood, are they realizing along with that is going to be a big light I mean people are always, that's one of the biggest concerns when they come in is they don't want lights in their neighborhood park. Well you put in an ice rink. Hoffman: The person at Power Hill that called, they realize that and we had that discussion they said... ....,." Lash: Never mind. But what about Lake Susan. We have electricity there. Is there a way that we can flood a rink at Lake Susan? There's parking. There's electricity already isn't there? Can we put one in there and that would fill that need. Hoffman: It's hard to identify a spot...install right on the parking lots. Roeser: How about on a ballpark. Would it do too much damage to the park itself? Hoffman: Yeah. Andrews: How about on the archery range area? There's that little flat area. Hoffman: ...removed and too small. Berg: It'd be nice to put it there because we've got the lake that we could use for the flooding then too. .! Schroers: Except there's nothing flat close to the lake. It just all drops off down there. 28 --' ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Hoffman: There's not a flat site there that we've identified. Lash: So there isn't any spot around there? Hoffman: ...I was out there and doing a site, we have the accessibility done to the tennis courts so we could get our last money from the LA WCON grant and I drove up into the Rosemount parking lot, to poke around up there and just to the west of Rosemount there's a huge field. There's the biggest, nicest soccer field there and it's not being utilized. It's just a big lawn area for their future expansion at some point. Right now there's the one person that got. written up in the Villager who goes an~1lies kites there. They just mow it and maintain it and we just need to walk in their door th'is winter and ask them about providing liability insurance, if we can bring it into the system for soccer next year. Lash: How about for skating? Or is it not compatible to use? / Andrew: That would require a lot of improvement to their property. Hoffman: It's flat enough so you can play soccer there right now. I always thought it was a ".... parking lot because we received a lot of complaints about all the water coming off the parking lot into the lake and doing damage. So I drove up there and it's just a big open field. There's a big, huge berm built between the field and the parking lots so nobody ever sees it. But it's a monster lawn...excited about that. So we have a consensus on that? I don't think we need a motion. We will again...1 think in the future we'll bring it back in more detail map showing you some of the property there. The high spots...as far as these little ponds and that type of thing because...into the formula. You'll see on there that they've got hockey nets and neighborhood kids go to these things and they're pretty popular as well. Lash: Well I can remember a couple of years ,ago hearing from the...people or something. I don't remember exactly...but out at the Minnewashta one where they said they would go out there to plow and there was never any evidence that anyone had skated on the rink. For weeks at a time. Hoffman: Yeah, maintenance goes out there and floods and they see very little activity. I live in a neighborhood in Victoria where they flood a beautiful rink, have lights on it all winter long and a warming house there all winter long, and you can walk down the street, it's a block and a half away, and skate and have your own private facility. These things do go in and they go in because it's tradition. We flood rinks. We provide a warming house but...e Schroers: The one in Victdria didn't, wasn't that way at one time. There was barely room to get on the ice. That was the only thing going on. ,..... 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 -' Andrews: Back in the good old days. Schroers: The good old days. You know there was no video games. Lash: They can go to the community center and skate inside. Schroers: That's right Alright Let's move along. PROGRAM REPORTS: A. SENIOR CENTER UPDATE. B. ADULT BASKETBALL LEAGUE. C. ADULT BOOT HOCKEY LEAGUE. D. FEBRUARY FESTIVAL. E. HALLOWEEN PARTY,EV ALUATION. .: ,<I...... Lemme: I have nothing further to add to this memo unless you have any questions. Roeser: The Senior Citizen choir is going to be singing at the Thanksgiving gathering at the Old St. Hubert's Church. Yeah, Louie called me. He was just delighted. -/ Lash: I just had a note on here to see if some of those wood crafters would be interested in bird and bat houses. Lemme: The Mens Club is...bird houses before and we can approach them for next spring for some more. Andrews: I'm sure if we helped fund it, that would help it a lot so. Hoffman: We funded it last time... Andrews: I guess one comment I wanted to make is, I'm just constantly surprised by the vitality of the senior programs here. It's just amazing the usage that's going on. Schroers: Moving down to the bottom of that, I would like to compliment staff on another job done extremely well on the Halloween party. I know that the staff people work hard and there was at least 3 or 4 pick-up truck loads of props and Halloween paraphernalia and what have you to go along with that and I think that smiling faces and pumpkins full of candy were evidenced. It was a 4ery successful program. Good job. 30 -'" ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Andrews: Are we kind of just going through for questions only on item 8 here? Schroers: Yeah. On 8. We're just about to move onto 9. Roeser: I was going to ask something about 8, about the cross country ski races at the Arboretum. Is that a good place to have it rather than just having it on Lake Susan or something like that? It's awfully hilly out there. Lemme: We're looking right now at two different courses. One would be more of a novice type of course and one would be more tow,~ds the...skiers and one would probably be maybe a 3K and...but we're talking with them jus(-'as a way of incorporating a place that already has trails as opposed to bringing in equipment and making trails. Schroers: I have considerable, well not considerable but pretty good experience on that. When you're talking about having a citizen race, when you see these citizen racers, they come decked out for the Olympics. And they want a challenge. The hillier, the tougher, the better. Absolutely no question about it. 1""". Roeser: I thought they liked to show off their clothes and a great big gathering on a lake is much prettier. Schroers: No way. Berg: I think the snow sculpture idea is a wonderful idea. The Berg family is already planning on that one. So get first place ready. Lash: So are you going to have like some judges and they're going to travel all around and look at them? Lemme: We're hoping the judges would be the commissioners, which would cancel the Bergs. Berg: I'll be happy to judge. Andrews: One thing on the ski racing, if you need ftrst aid volunteers, I'm part of the Ski Patrol. We provide volunteers for the Birke and any other cross country events so give me a call. Lemme: That'd be wonde1ful. r-. 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....."I Lash: So...is that how the judging would work? You'd go around. Somebody would have to call and tell you they have a sculpture. Lemme: We'd have people who actually register on a registration form with their address and then we can bring the judges out to each house. We could drive out in a certain time period and look at the snow sculptures. Take pictures if we need to. Bring them back and make a decision. There's three different categories... Berg: My expert tells me Jerry that the touch and feel, apple cider, and movie and cartoons are awesome ideas. .; ~..!..... Ruegemer: Is that right? Berg: Yeah. So that comes right from the horses mouth. / Schroers: Have you looked at that also as an option, the regional park on Lake Minnewashta. There's a ski trail there as well. Lemme: We haven't actually at this point. Schroers: You might just want to take a look at what is available there and compare that to the Arboretum too because I know that they did maintain a ski trail there in the regional park. I don't know if it's still. ....", Lemme: ...we were just trying to think of ways of incorporating the Arboretum. They were really looking for some opportunities to...and apparently they're going to be having their fIrst running race, a walking race out at the Arboretum in the spring or summer. They have a new trail that they're opening up so they thought this would be a good way of getting people out there and... Schroers: I think the Arboretum would be a beautiful place to have it It really would, and there's the people that are actually going to sign up for the race, those are people that race you know, you're not going to get your average family person here coming and signing up for a race. These are people that race every weekend and they train for it and all that stuff so they'll love the hills. Lemme: And that's why we were also trying to offer two different types so that someone like myself who skis occasionally could maybe just try it for the fun of it. But we could look at the Minnewashta, that'd'1Je a good idea. . 32 ....."I ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Schroers: As just an alternative. Lash: ...but there's nothing to do with snowmobiles in here anymore. Lemme: That's been looked at. Jerry could probably address that. Ruegemer: Yes I can. We did have discussions about, with the Snowmobile Club possibly out looking at time trials or a quarter mile type of a race but in conversations with the Snowmobile Club, they thought maybe that wouldn't be a great idea just with the location, or to be involved with this festival at this tim~,would be proximity maybe of the people. The open skating rink and then the fishing cont~st, that there would be a liability and that wouldn't be a great idea maybe at this point. At this location. Possibly to have it off site location like Lake Ann. Andrews: Lake Waconia. , Lash: Minnewashta has radar races. r Ruegemer: But that was felt... with additional parking and it would be easier access. That was addressed and the Snowmobile Club is going to get involved to some degree. Whether that be a fun ride maybe. A city fun ride type of thing. They're exploring that possibility as we speak. Meger: Or also maybe interested in running the concession stand as a fund raiser. Andrews: How about a rally race for snowmobiles? Lash: It could be like a scavenger hunt. What do you call those things?.. Andrews: A rally race concept would be a lot of fun because that's a combination of mapping, reading a clock, stuff like that. It takes the flat out speed out of the race and that's what you want to do. Schroers: Okay, can we move onto 9? Ruegemer: One quick comment. I would like to thank Larry and Jim for helping out with the Halloween party. They did an awesome job. We couldn't have done it without you so, great work. We appreciate your volunteerism on that night so thank you. Any other commission members that '<Vould like to involved in the 1994, I'll pass a sheet around. r 33 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ..."" Schroers: They treat you good at Halloween. You get candy bars and cocoa and all that stuff. Berg: No t-shirt though huh? Schroers: No t-shirts or hats but. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: A. VISION 2002 ...' B. CITY COUNCIL UPDATES: ~"' 1. CARRIAGE HOUSES, CENTEX REAL ESTATE CORPORATION, BETTY O'SHAUGHNESSY. 2. SONG PROPERTY, LUNDGREN BROS. / Hoffman: This, the Vision 2002, the last meeting that I attended...two meetings took place last night at the Dinner Theatre. Lots of things were talked about. When it came right down to it. the disappointing news was that, as you know, TIF proceeds which everybody is hanging their hat on to pay for all these things, has been decreased from about 10 112 million to 4 1/2 million and everybody comes in, well. What are we here for. Drop in the bucket. But the fact remains that the HRA and the City Council will be identifying priorities so in your conversations with those people you can lobbying for the items which you feel are of importance to the center and the center of the city. For your interest. the center of the city was identified as essentially Chan View on the north, CR 17 down there to the west, 1H 10 1 to the east and Highway 5 so that's it. The center of the city and what should go there. Should a community center go there? There's lots of talk about a big civic center complex. Not only making this central park but then expansion of the library and putting a pool right in this property out here in the civic center and keep the seniors here and keep the library here and do all that right on the site. But how do you do it. And then the other one, other considerations are the PaulylPony/Pryzmus property and what should...What should go on the property where you have the concrete plant which is now owned by the HRA and will come down. How should you treat the entrance monuments to the city and all the decisions need to be made obviously. It's not going to be too many more years, as you can recognize, and the downtown area will be done. ....,,;' Lash: How big a site is the Red-E-Mix? Hoffman: It's only about 100 feet wide so it can't accommodate much but it's pretty long. ,( Schroers: I think a pension for retired commissioners wouldn't be unreasonable. 34 ....,,; '" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Hoffman: You've got to get it...As you know, you saw the invitation list. There was a huge diversity of people over there...! think everything that was said there has been said before. The idea was the HRA has been beat up a little bit over the years. You did this wrong. You didn't do that. You should have done this and they wanted to get together with some public input and find out well then exactly what do you want us to be doing. So that's essentially the purpose of these meetings. Moving on to City Council updates. Carriage House. That was tabled. Carriage House, as you recall, was the O'Shaughnessy property. Portions of the Council were disgruntled that the Highway 5 corridor study had not been fully completed and so now they were looking at projects along the corridor and again, so they wanted to get that straighten away. So that was tabled. The ~ng property, as you probably read through the... by the City Council. I think the major chatfge to your recommendations...would be the 250 x 250 was put on 180 x 180 and the other one would be in regard to the trail. Lands are not going to be dedicated. That trail easement will be dedicated and the trail will not be asphalt. It will be aggregate. Trail fees will be credited but if the construction costs far exceed credit to be given them, they have t,he right to come back before the City Council...And they dropped anything having to do with the Stockdale property. Including the contingent acquisition and the grading. '" Lash: Anyone else feel a little case of disappointment? Andrews: Did we lose that one? Berg: My sense when I walked out of that meeting was, it was a done deal before we ever sat down. Maybe because it was sour grapes and I was just really discouraged with the way the whole evening went. Roeser: Well I got the impression that the Council didn't care one way or the other about that private park. You know. Wing said that it was totally irrelevant to him. It didn't mean a thing, and I think most of them felt that way. Andrews: Pretend like it doesn't exist? Berg: Well, that's what they did but. Roeser: It's like putting a deck on your house. I mean it's something that they use to sell, and not necessarily has anything to do with. Lash: They obviously weren't looking at the whole picture. That it was a park deficient area. I mean that was the Mart of the issue that we were trying to deal with. I"""" 35 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....", Schroers: Besides the fact that their private park wasn't going to fill the bill. Lash: Right. Schroers: But you know so they kind of blew us away by knocking us down on the square footage here. Lash: That one didn't bother me as much I guess as the trail one. The changes in the trail recommendation, are the biggest disappointment to me I think because we worked on that a long hard time and for it to come, be knoc~ed down to aggregate as opposed to bituminous and then. And on top of that all the fees are waived for both developments and then he has the opportunity to come back and ask. Andrews: And cry later. ~ Lash: Right. For credits on top of that. We did not drive home the point enough that this was a PUD. And being a PUD, now he needed, they needed to provide things to us that were above and beyond the minimal requirements and we tried to ask maybe for some of those. And I don't even know how far above the minimum requirements we went with that. We didn'tpush it very hard and then to get it cut back at City Council was really a frustration for me. And I'm afraid this is going to set a precedent for other developers that if they go to the other commissions and they go, I'm assuming that the developer went before the meeting and contacted different City Council members to present his case, and if we did not do that, I did call one person. I knew I wasn't going to go to the meeting but I did contact one person on the Council and maybe we need, when these issues come up, if we feel strongly, we maybe need to make a better case to the Council members and maybe ask them to examine the Minutes more carefully. I know they have a huge packet all the time and they can't sit and read every page of all of our minutes but when it comes to an issue like that, if we feel strongly, we maybe need to ask for more. -' Berg: For me the dangerous precedent is that I think the developer circumvented the process. He didn't get the answer he wanted here so he just kept going to places where he could finally get the answer that he wanted, and pretty much ignored us. And I think that's a real dangerous precedent. Hoffman: And I think you're correct Jan that reading of the Minutes, by the time it gets to Council the packet's are an inch and a half thick and what they base their decision on, many times is they all received a call from the applicant. That prompted them to call staff and to ask questions, which I resp6nded to. It obviously affected I think their position on development in general in that, at least one Councilmember stated outright, and another 36 -' ""'" ",......... ,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 insinuated, that we are asking for more than we can justify in park and trail fee credits, than we're out of line. But this is a PUD and they're supposed to be doing more, above and beyond what they're typically doing but many times they just say they're doing much more in wetland preservation. They're doing much more in tree preservation. They're doing much more in these other areas so don't expect us to do that much more in parks and trails. We're doing a lot of other things so it does come down to, if you know anything about lobbying at any level, it comes down to that last minute. It's the critical inputs right as the decision is being made that are, in most cases carry the most weight All of the data which took place for meetings and meetings...which were documented, sometimes those don't mean much and that's the reason I pulled out those quotes 2ut of the Minutes. Those did have some impact on the Council. The Council got a feel that' the Park Commission was disgruntled with the applicant but I think they were, the applicant... Lash: Maybe in our recommendations when it's a PUD, we need to mention the fact, in our recommendation, that because this is a PUD, our recommendation is and they are required to provide above and beyond our recommendation. So that's always right out there so that it doesn't look like we're requiring more than what we, we're asking for more than what we can really require and make that crystal clear in our recommendation too. Hoffman: If I could, just to brief you out on the budget process. I'd like to keep you up to date on that, since we do have a new...That's that $3,000.00...updated in park maintenance. Refurbishment and renewals that we're taking out of the...You will be happy to know that park maintenance will be a division switched over to the administrative, under park administration. So that budget will be handled through the park and recreation department so we can therefore lobby more heavily in the future for the items which we. need to carry out park maintenance. Both the park commission and staff is ultimately responsible. When we get calls from citizens...so it will be help for us in that regard. However, the entire city budget is $600,000.00 balance at this time. That represents 20% so $600,000.00 needs to be cut Much of that will take place in positions. There are some new positions which were iden~ed and often times those are the biggest expenditures and the ftrst to be cut, but that $30,000.00 represents an equivalent to a new position in some respects and the City Manager has actually identifted that they will be looking at that. Last night at the budget meeting, the City Council directed the City Manager to go back and sit down with the department heads and balance that budget and to bring it back before the Council for their review. So that is the biggest item on the chopping block for the park department. I feel very strongly that it needs to be retained obviously. However, you should talk to your Council members and anyone else here. City Manager, if you get the opportunity, to reaffIrm that because it is, the City Manager listed a priority list last night of...items you feel strongly about The parks commission has identifted t1:lat they need additional money for, to take the pressure off their annual CIF of $30,000.00 for the next three years. You feel that's a priority. The public 37 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 ....,., works department has identified the need to upgrade streets or to keep streets and services at a uniform level. Do you feel that's a priority? So they're going to be identifying these things. If that $30,000.00 shows up at the bottom of the priority list to the City Council, I'm going to be hard pressed when I sit down and negotiate with the City Manager to keep it. So that's something I want to bring to your attention. A side note. You're probably aware of the conference, or State conference will be taking place the next 3 days so Jerry, Dawn and I will be out of the office tomorrow, Thursday, and Friday. Thank you. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: <.. Andrews: Todd, I don't know if you updated the commission on Highway 101 before when I missed. Did you? Hoffman: Last go around we talked about Highway 10 1 again. I don't recall what specifically was stated. I know we talked about it at the Council level as well. Currently they're continuing to look to funding sources...and trying to look at, short term, you know a year or two years there's nothing going to happen but if we can set something up so it will happen, the State dollars for the road upgrading and the County dollars, that will have to be 4 or 5 years out kind of as a guarantee but he's... Andrews: I think it's really important that the city communicate with the citizens. I mean they're, as you're aware, there was an article. It was printed in the paper that was pretty overly optimistic and it was by somebody that had a city staff position and there are a lot of people up there that are expecting bulldozers and trucks to be out there in the spring. I mean they're convinced of this and I think it's just, I think the city needs to do a much better job of communicating the time line and reality curve here and what this project really is. Probably so people can stay focused on it but probably too so that you don't have an expectations which are unrealistic. Because it just creates disappointment and frustration and people feel like they've been misled. ...." Schroers: Alright. Lash: Did you receive applications? Did you discuss this already and I missed it? Hoffman: Applications for the commission? We had Dave Huffman has picked up an application. Jeff Bros has... Lash: And what? .( Hoffman: ...is a past President of the Snowmobile Association. Very active in the CAA. 38 ....", ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Jeff Bros is a past President of the Athletic Association. Dave Huffman, past Viking. And I believe Sue Hurm was in this evening. She applied at the last moment after the deadline last time around and she was expressing an interest as well. Lash: Did you say Hurm? Hoffman: Hurm, yes. Susan Hurm. She works with the Youth Commission. Berg: Can we look at the questions this time, before. In terms of the last couple times we've said perhaps we'd like to look at the ques~9fls that we're asking. -!.;.... Hoffman: That was an item. Lash: And is that...in December? / Hoffman: Yeah, you'll interview in December so this was something. Lash: Now did I hear through the grapevine Larry that you're not reapplying? ,...... Schroers: Yes. Just taking a break. You'll be fme. Hoffman: You hate those questions, well what do you want to do with them? Ad lib. Berg: No, you can't do that. Lash: Well number one is, duh. Yeah, they wouldn't be here if they were going to say no, I don't have time to do this. Andrews: But it's a good starting question though. Schroers: But they may not know how much time it takes. Lash: Well okay, but if we want to give them a little crash course on what's required, let's do that. Berg: H you do that, you can eliminate question 3. And question 2, what are they going to say? No, you folks really don't diddily squat about what you're doing. Andrews: I don't know. l(think we've gotten good answers from all these questions. I""'" 39 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 .....,I Roeser: They're not real bad. Berg: We've got real good people as a result of it but I'm not sure it wasn't an accident. Andrews: I guess one question I'd like to see added would be, what would you identify as a priority area for Park and Ree. Lash: That's a good one. Do you have, underlying that question is do you have an agenda? And if you have an agenda, what is your agenda? And we may get a little insight into. Andrews: Agenda sounds threatening. t..: ,~.,.... Lash: No, I didn't say that. That's going to let us know if they have an agenda. I like the way you put it see, but that tips us off if they have an agenda and if they have an agenda. what is it. And we know what we're in for. Jane, you were the latest person to go through this. What did you think? Meger: I was just thinking back. I remember Jim asking me a very tough question but I don't see it on here. Berg: Probably the way he asked. ....", Meger: It had something to do with tax dollars, allocation... Lash: You must have did good on it. Meger: Or maybe it was, no. It was you I know. Schroers: He can be brutal sometimes. Lash: I think the one, 5 is kind of what Jim said but I think it would get more specific if it was, what do you see as a goal or a priority. Andrews: What are your personal goals for serving on the park and ree. Lash: Why do you want to be here and what would you like to see? Berg: I think the second part of it is good. .! Lash: Well, where is the fIrst part? 40 ..."I ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 Berg: ...conservation and environment. Lash: That's kind of another, duh. Yeah, oh I think it's horrible. But the second part is good, although maybe, I guess we elaborated enough on that. Andrews: I think it'd be real helpful Todd if you could make up maybe like a half page sheet that explains that we are a body that makes recommendations to the Council so they don't have to guess that...! think they should all be given that. Lash: . Another thing that would be helpfu~.~..and I know Jim had asked this of every candidate last time. We have their application and tttat has their address but that doesn't always tell us geographically where they're located within the city so if we can find out if that's, or even on their application put downtown or out west or down south or whatever so we have some kind of an idea. / Berg: Would it serve any purpose at all to ask them how they've used the park system? We get a feel then for where their biases are maybe. Or use biases are. ,..... Lash: I guess I'd have a, be interested in learning too what kinds of facilities they feel are important in neighborhood parks versus community parks and if they think that those, we have how do you feel about it already. If they feel like the needs in the neighborhood parks are being met, and at the community level. Who's Larry talking to? Larry, get in here. Andrews: Yeah, we can adjourn. Hoffman: Do you have questions? One question or two questions? Lash: See if you can make sense out of anything we said here and make a couple of new ones. If we take out the first one and the third one. Hoffman: You're going to take those two out? Lash: Yeah, because that's just information that we're going to provide. Berg: And basically the first half of number 4 we're taking out. So we're going to have about a 30 second interview. Lash: Well, if we expand number 5 as to what would be their goals or their priorities and number 2. Instead of, impiession of the current park and recreation system, how about the parks. Neighborhoods, community parks. Advantages. Disadvantages. Things like that. ,..... 41 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 16, 1993 -'" Manders: My one comment, if I think back to the interview that I went through, and something that I elaborated on was the discussion on some of the important points that we've been dealing with over the last year since I've been here and that's the tennis court idea, community center and space and skating and some of those things that I think if we would try to extract some of their comments regarding those issues, and I'm sure there's a bunch of other issues that we could. I don't know if it's important that they have a comment on each issue but something that they've thought about those things. I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong answer but it gives you some feel for how involved they are in the community and if they've given it some thought ahead of time. Andrews: You could ask a question like vMiat city issues have you been involved with. Manders: Yeah. Something that. Berg: Get a feel for their in~olvement before this. Manders: Shows that they're interested. Andrews: I think we're getting way too deep here with it. Schroers: I do too. ....., Andrews moved, Roeser seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim 'f 42 ....",I