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PRC 1995 05 23 I""'"' CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREA nON COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MAY 23, 1995 Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Jan Lash, Dave Huffman, Jim Manders, Fred Berg, Jane Meger, and Ron Roeser STAFF PRESENT: Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor~ Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor~ Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent~ and Erik Donley, Recreation Intern VISITOR PRESENTA nONS: None. FEASmILITY REPORT: POWER HILL PARK DRAINAGE. Dale Gregory presented the staff report on this item. Roeser: What do you think of the soil, even if it were dry? ,...... Gregory: The word is, it's a lot of fill and it's basically a park that's basically a lot of fill in. They took kind of a swampy area and they made a park out of it, is what they done. Roeser: Right. It was the builder that put that down, right? Gregory: You could use it for open space, green area and that. Put in volleyball courts and stuff like that in. It's going to be real bad. Simply, it's going to be like Curry Farms. We did the same thing over there. We put a volleyball court in...down a foot and we have got nothing but muck underneath there and they done the same thing over there. Just filled it. It's a bad situation. If you want just an open green space, that would be fine. Lash: So kids could play a ball game and stuff down there but nothing. Gregory: Dh yeah. That would be fine. Lash: The residents had asked us about the trail area. They said that that is very wet up along the, which direction would that be? Roeser: It must be south. Gregory: South, where the trail runs from this park along. r Lash: Right. Would this take care of that too? 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 .....; Gregory: No. This has got nothing to do with that. We have already gone in there last year and we have run drain tile across at all the points where people are running their sumps to that part already. And we have quite a bit of that already here. We've already, we've run quite a bit across there. I don't know that we've got all of them yet but if we haven't, we'll have to put more...and all you do there is just run drain tile straight across from where they run their sump pumps so. I know that the trail was real wet because we couldn't even mow it last year. But we did, I think we cut about 5 tiles last fall going across there. Lash: So do you have a rough estimate how much more it would be if we wanted to correct that? Gregory: That w<>uld be minimal. I mean the cost of the tile, which is 59 cents a foot so basically it'd be just our labor putting it in, which...and I think we'd do that anyway just simply to get the trail... Lash: I would suggest that we, I'm not interested in taking any more money out of our contingency fund this year for .this particular site, given it's only May. My suggestion on this would be to put this amount into our '96 budget so we could do it the next year. Roeser: I'm noteved sure We should do it next year but I certainly feel that we shouldn't do ....., it now. I don't think we should spend any money, any more contingency money on that. To me they should let that bea nice wild little park down there where the kids can play when they feel like it and let it go otherwise. That's just the kind of piece of land it looks like to me. It doesn't look like you can make a decent ballpark out of it. Lash: No. and I'm not even suggesting that that would happen but my understanding was that a lot of times it's too wet t<> even just go down there and playa little pick-up. Gregory: Along the east side of, along those houses, there's times we can't even mow down there. I mean you can't.evetlwalk :aroundthere; Roeser: If you drained it, would you have to shut off those sumps? Gregory: No, actually what we'redoing is, those sumps coming into it, what we're trying to do is we're trying to catch the water that comes into the park at our boundary line and start directing it.downunderground: . The way it is right now,' there's going to be times that we can't evenmowit: We~te going to have just basically I drive down there. Along the lot lines. I guess I'm not even saying we have to... 2 --' I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Andrews: I don't look at this as a contingency expense either. I think this is something we build into our long term projects because it's not what I would call an emergency expense, in my opinion and I think we'd be irresponsible, as Ian said, to spend all our money now and be faced with nothing later and we could have a real emergency later that we would have no money for so, I agree. I'd like to see this put into our budget considerations for the next time we work on annual budgets, and if it passes the test then, we'll do it. If it doesn't, then we don't. I kind of waiver back and forth as we're spending $5,000.00 to dry up a swamp. Swampy area versus what this $5,000.00 does for other places. So I think it would be better to do this at our regular budget meeting where we could compare this money. See what it could do somewhere. else and maybe make a better choice too. I think we do need a motion though if we're going to take any action, or if anybody else has more comments to make. Berg: I felt the opposite way for the same reasons. I'd like to see it get into operation as soon as possible. It's there. It's something that the kids could be using. If it takes 5 days, it's ready to go by June. Gregory: Well like I told Todd. The 5 days is 5 working days. Now if he wants it in a hurry, we're going to have to put other things on the back burner, which is...Pheasant Hills II"'" Park and these things that have been waiting for quite a while and Todd's reply was that, if it goes, he said we're probably looking at more towards fall. After, we put it in line with everything else. It would be done probably in the fall because right now we don't have the time to do it. Berg: Well; okay now I take back everything I just said... Lash: Okay. I also want to go on record that I have a little frustrations with us spending $5,000.00 to dry out this property when all of the homes surrounding it are pumping their sump pumps. into it. So they're contributing a good deal of the problem but we're expected to pay the money to rectify the problem so I'm going to have some mixed feelings about it. I probably will end up having to do it but I have Some frustration with that and I don't know if there~sanything that can be done. There's another place for them to route their sumps? . Andrews: Into the storm sewers. They could do that. Lash: Okay. Gregory: If it wasn't for the sump pumps, we could make that usable without any... Lash: You know the residents are coming to us. They want us to clean it up, dry it up, but they're the ones causing the problem so. ",...., 3 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ..."" Manders: I would say that I'm certainly against the idea of spending the money and that I really do question whether we should even do this tiling to begin with. Andrews: My other frustration is that the builder probably got full park credit for this land and it's unusable swamp land, as we would normally classify this at this point. I mean if another project came to us and said I'll give you some land but it's going to be wet and unusable, we'd ~y that's great but give us some proper land to go with it so. I mean we're spending money basically to bailout a job that wasn't done right to start with and I have a tough time with that too. Lash: Okay. I move that we table discussion on this project until the budget, the meeting where we discuss the upcoming budget. . Andrews: And as a friendly amendment to that, to make sure that this is brought up as a discussion item for budget meetings so, is there a second to that? Roeser: I'll second. Andrews: Okay, .' any further discussion? LasbmovedfRoeserseeonded1batthe Pmkand'Recreation Commission table discussion on die drainage issue at Power Hill PaiX and to bring them item back up for discussion at die annual budget meeting. All voted in favo-r and die motion tanied unanimously. ...", LAKE ANN PARKBA TflNG CAGE: CHANHASSEN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION. JetryRuegemet presented 'the staff report on this item. Chris Polster: Well Jeny's just about said everything. We've got the bids on the fencing and that comes. out to be about $7,600.60. for fencing. That will be 76 feet long by 42 feet wide. The electrical work is going to be about 31, no $1,876.00 it is and we're not going to need a transformer' for that.. Our electrician got with NSP out in the field and...Jerry, I don't know if you were there but they reviewed the area and what they can do is run a cable from the facility.up on top. Itwilloe..;concession stand, I guess, and then: trench it. We're going to trench' down to. the electrical outlets. The electricity would be by the hill so we won't need thatextemalstructure.of the transfonrier which I guesspersO'nally I don't look forward to that... So anyway, that bid came in at $1,876,60. NO' special requirements really, just digging a trench. Of course what they will need isa little bit of a contour map or whatever showing where the sprinklers might be or any obstructions or whatever. And probably, and a line on where exactly you'd like the cable to run, which I would think would be partly a technical 4 -" ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 decision... The cage will be 12 feet tall. There will be a net...nylon net covering the top that can be removed in the wintertime and then two curtains on the inside so there will really be three cages when those curtains are pulled up. That's also removable in the winter time. We'll be digging a trench about 2 feet beyond the fence line in all directions, meaning the limestone or the ag lime wilt be about 4 to 6 feet by about 74 feet. Again, that's so the staff can cut grass without moving the cage itself. And I don't have a quote on the trench yet. Or I mean on the ditch. That's going to be about 8 inches deep, if I remember right. And then we'll fill it with an ag lime and the quote we have on that is $320.00. Again, the trench... But also then we'll have about $800.00...sales tax so depending on what total amounts to, $14,800.00, which is $200.00 less than what we budgeted for in the CAA. So if the quote comes in more than $200.00, we'll have to amend our budget. Any questions? Berg: Is 12 feet high enough? I know we were talking about different heights. Chris Polster: . That'sgreat...Actually 12 feet is much better. Berg: And the curtains on the inside, we talked about the safety factor. Is that what those are there for? AI"" Chris Polster: We wanted to separate the cages, yeah. You couldjust put littler curtains out too, as another option and we'd go about 15 feet...to separate the batters but then you've got balls flying possibly to other machines and from a safety perspective, I think we'd just as soon protect each lane fully. And then also we'll have some netting right behind the pitching machine. That's where most of the action... Berg: ... that this is as safe as itean be? Chris Polster: Yeah, I guess Idoh't know how safe it can ever be but in looking around the cities, in Eden Prairie and some of the other communities, this is pretty much, and working on consultation with the fencing company who installs quite a lot, this is fairly standard so I guess itts as safe as we can imagine it will be. We are looking into insurance too. The CAA has also budgeted money for our own insurance. I don't know being this is the city's cage, I'm not sure that that would have too mucheffect...c~ge quite extensively so they would be covered by this insurance also. We're getting a couple of quotes on that. So we will have our own insurance. Roeser: Will somebody be manning these things when they're in operation? Suppose I want to go out there and hit balls on a Sunday afternoon. Can I just walk in there? I won't hit any but. ;II!'" 5 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ....", Chris Polster: We're going to make access not so much, at least as far as I'm concerned. It's kind of the City's property basically. We're turning it over to the city but I know we would like to see it fully supervised and anytime it's being used by kids...know how we're going to do it. It seems like in the CAA we'd like keys to be made accessible to the coaches so they can, I don't know, go to the cage...and have practice with their kids. Beyond that, frankly we did have some discussion and I don't know if Jerry has thought too much about that but one of the advantages of not owning the cage is that we don't have to think about that. Roeser: So Jerry has to think about it. Ruegemer: Yeab, those are some of the types of issues really that the commission, when this whole batting cage proposition I guess came up. It's a great idea to see...donating the cage to the city but yet it's going to be, really the ball is to going to be dropped in our lap...the commission needs to think about as far as, if we-want to staff it. It's there. It's a public amenity...sit there. Then how do we better utilize that space in a safe manner. Really, the opportunity, how many? Three pitching machines out there at probably $1,500.00-$2,000.00 a piece I would imagine so, plus the cage itself so it's not just a little cheap toy out there. We're going to take cate of it and we'll maintain that area...things that we can look at as far as staffing it. Chris Polster: And the machines will be secured. We're trying to get the metal boxes like what we have out at some of the different fields behind the back drop. If you've seen some of those. They're pretty tough and durable and we'd like to, just like we did out at Lake Susan. Where we keep the machines in there and;.Jdon'tknow if it's practical to really be locking the cage but nobody's going to use the cage too often I guess without the machine unless there's... So to get that machine,l guess somebody would.-have-to have the key to get into the box itself. And there's different thirigswecan dOc. We can, give a key to each coach Of-make a key available from the attendant maybe, you know at the shack there. I really feel strongly that kids shouldn't be using it without supervision however. There has to be some kind of adult supervision. -' Berg: Might it work better, I don't know. Just like the way we've got it in the middle school for basketball where if there was a key at the community center, that we could work out something with the Ree Center right across the street. W e~re very close to that where I would be worried personally if there were 2 dozen keys floating around the city, because keys get lost. Andrews: Or duplicated. 6 -..."I ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Berg: Or duplicated. If you have 1 or 2 keys, that works very well at the Middle School I thought. Then you know where it is. Who's got it if it's not there, and you can track it down. As long as we're close. Andrews: With about a $20.00 deposit. Lash: Do they sign it out? Berg: Yeah. You have to go in and sign it out. Andrews: About a $20.00 deposit. Chris Polster: If there is an attendant at the shack in the summertime, basically what's that attended from 10:00 to? Ruegemer: 10:00 a;m. to about 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. weekdays. ,.... Chris Polster: And that would fairly well cover summertime. Before Memorial Day of course and after Labor Day you may have to think of some other options but that may be reasonable to except that somebody could check out a key at the shack. Or another thing, we can arrange with the CAA to have field supervisors, which I guess I feel strongly about anyway for first aid reasons and other reasons. There should be, and maybe there is, I don't know but there's baseball going on on one side of the park and adult softball on the other and maybe there should be a supervisor of some kind, especially for the kids for first aid reasons. I know we check in for instance to a communication system that would allow us to immediately get a hold of the fire department if there was an injury. Right now we do have a phone up at the shack that we can get into but I don't know if we've followed up or gotten a key from anybody... Ruegemer: There's a pay phone out there too Chris. Andrews: And there's probably about 30 pareI1tswith cell phones with them too so. ChrisPolster:WeU and that's what we were looking at buying actually is a couple of cell phones and havinganactual..;volunteer supervisor at the park facility that would have a cell phone in cases of emergencies. So we're willing to consider that. We certainly have enough parents in the community that we could get one a week out of 300 or 400 parents...so we definitely want to work with the city. ,.... 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 -' Manders: I have a question that pertains to the field. That field obviously is designed for much larger usage and my question really relates to, at some point down the road if we decide to open the field back up, what it's going to take to move this out of there? Is it going to be an act of god to get that moved out of there? Chris Polster: Probably Dale could answer that from a technical perspective. I imagine a lot of, unless there's... Manders: I would assume that there would be another spot to move it to. Just that we wouldn't be able to use it there because we'd want to use that as a much larger field because it's designed that way. Chris Polster: Yes, to do that... Manders: Really. the question revolves around permanency like, if you're. putting transformers in and things like that, I start thinking now it's going to take a lot to get it out of there. If it's just picking this thing up and moving it, that doesn't take much. Chris Polster: Well the concrete that the fencing is going to be in will be the tough part. Then it comes... every thing's portable. The fencing can come down but then you've got those poles right in the concrete. I tried to do that with a sledge hammer and I can't do it...It wouldn't be an easy job to do that. ...,.,. Ruegemer: I have a question Chris. This is regarding the breaker box... Are you going to use separate breakers for each circuit? Chris Polster: I don't think separate breakers. I think one breaker box up in the shack is what he's talking about Ruegemer: ...if you have any problem? Chris Polster: Right. And then having outlets, three different outlets where...coming out of the holes or... Ruegemer: I wanted to ask you too just about restoration to the trench. After that is done, is the CAA going to come in and reseed, black dirt, sod? Chris Polster: I hadn't even thought about it actually. We certainly... Gregory: Are these cages going to be usable for. softball? 8 ...,.,. ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Chris Polster: The machines are all convertible to softball or baseball so certainly, with three cages, the machines are going to be very convertible to do what they want. Ruegemer: It's my knowledge too that the machines can also revert them back to coin operated machines? Chris Polster: They can be upgraded to that, yes. Well actually one of them.W e're only buying one machine. We've got two other machines that are...It's cheaper to buy the equipment altogether in the first place... We can upgrade one... Andrews: Any other questions? Again for the Park Commission, we thank CAA .for your contributions and we look forward to this working well and successfully for us. Chris Polster: And thank you on behalf of everybody in the community. This is very good. It's going to be something that will really help attract more kids. Keep more kids... Lash: What's your estimated time of completion there? That they'll be using this. ,,-.., Chris Polster: Well, the sequence begins with digging the hole and I still haven't gotten, hopefully it's not a long lead time to get that done. But the fencing will be available in about another 2 1/2 weeks. Electrical work is available whenever we turn them on. And the ag lime we can get that whenever we make the phone call basically so, at the moment, because what I don't know about that being...Hopefully we can get that done within 2 1/2 weeks. Lash: So how are you, if we're not deciding tonight on the method of use, how it's going to be accessed. How are you going to deal with that up until we come up with some kind of a plan? Chris Polster: Well, I'll be making a lot of phone calls to Jerry. Roeser: Yeah, you're going to build it but we're going to have to supervise it. The Park Commission. Chris Polster: Or be accountable for it. I don't know about supervising it necessarily because again, we're definitely willing to provide volunteer time to supervise it. But accountability certainly, if it's the city~s cage, that will make the city accountable for whatever process is established. Jf1"'" 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ....." Lash: See I wouldn't have a problem with the idea that was thrown out of keeping the key at the front entrance building there with a sign out. But if the attendant leaves at 7:00, we're going to have a problem because people are going to be wanting the key past 7:00. Chris Polster: Of course we could maybe have a slot or something. Lash: Yeah, that.s true. Chris Polster: Key slot or, I'd like to think that all the volunteers are honorable. Lash: Well if they've signed up the key, they'll get a call the next day if it's not in the box so. Berg: I still favor going down half a mile to the Rec Center when it's open. Lash: But it's not going to be open. It won't be open this summer, yeah. Chris Polster: The shack allows us to buy time. We can discuss it and then see how things work. Lash: That would give us a year to try too and if it doesn't work out, we can always, but we're going to be faced with that. We need to decide fairly quickly what to do. People are going to want to be using it. ....."" Chris Polster: Yeah, we're already getting calls. Andrews: Next agenda. Jerry, can you make a note on that for next agenda. I think we've got to have that ready. Chris Polster: Is there anything I can do that discussion? Andrews: Be here. I think we need to have information from you as to really at what level can your organization provide volunteer supervision. Chris Polster: Okay. I'll start working on that right now. Between now and then. The cage will have been built presumably by that time. If that's... Andrews: I think we have to have some sort of feel for that in order for us to make any decisions as to how much can we expect to get from you and how well might it work. I expect that this, like many other new things, the usage will start kind of slow and quietly. 10 .....,I ,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 You'll be the main benefactors of that to start with but then the word's going to get out and then everybody else is going to want to use it too so. We'll have a little breathing room to deal with it but we need to get going on this. Lash: Thanks again Chris. Andrews: Any other questions? Comments? Thank you again. SIrE PLAN REVIEW OF A 5.000 SO. Fr. RESTAURANT ON 1.38 ACRES: LOT 1. BLOCK 1. CHANHASSEN RETAIL mIRD ADDmON: PERKINS FAMILY RESTAURANT. GUY PAYNE. Andrews: I review this. What is there to do other than just to be advised that this is happening? Is that the purpose of this item? Lemme: I think the item was put in prior to the knowledge that this had been reviewed by the Commission previously so. "" Andrews: Okay, so done it, seen it... PROGRAM REPORTS: A. 4m OF JULY CELEBRATION. 1995 LOGO SELECTION. Ruegemer: If you look in front of you, those were just picked up today. These are put together by students at the Chaska High School. In speaking with Minnetonka High School, they didn't seem to have a whole lot of interest in developing artwork for that so basically these are the selections that were developed I guess for you to take a look at. I don't know if...all put together and I know the names... Andrews: What was the one you liked? Eyes to the skies? Roeser: Yep. Andrews: Fred, I don't see your's. Are you abstaining? Berg: I don't like any of them. Lash: This is the only one I would consider. Is this all computer? Is this a computer class or is this? So it's not the art class? ",-.. 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ...."" Berg: Right. Lash: I thought the art class was going to do something. Berg: This is the art class but it's computer generated art. Andrews: I like this one the best but I guess my preference would be to see this now taken to a hand drawn version of the same thing, or redrawn version. Roeser: Yeah, what kind of colors are you talking about? Is. this going to be on shirts? Ruegemer: Yeah. This is going to, whoever designed that over thaL.Keep in mind this might be..,it can be touched up I would imagine and cleaned up a little bit buLl think it can be worked on and cleaned up. Roeser: Dawn, what do you think of it? You've got to sell t-shirts. Lemme: If we can get the disk from him, we can touch it up as much as we want but, and we're going to need that because we're going to need to have... Andrews: Yeah, well it says right on here that he's got a disk of it so. .....,I Lemme: Right. But whether or not he wants us to be, would allow us to tweak this to our satisfaction. Andrews: Sure weare. It's our property. Ruegemer: This is the original that I had them make a copy off of. I don't know if that's any representation of colors that. Andrews: We can choose our own color scheme too. Lash: I would need to see it a little closer. Berg: ...with a great big black dot in the middle of this picture. Lash: Well it wouldn't have to be black, would it? Roeser: We've got to show you a nice sky 12 ....." ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lash: It could be a very dark blue maybe. Like a little bit of a sunset scene or something. Andrews: It could be blue, grays. Lash: I would, in keeping with tradition, want to have the year on it possibly underneath or something. We've always had the year. Andrews: Yeah, underneath the bottom. Lash: We didn't have it on last year? Ruegemer: No. Andrews: At least they have the city spelled right. I like that. Lash: Really. You haven't seen the shirts yet. Lemme: We can put the year on the t-shirts and not on the hat. ~ Ruegemer: Yeah. I think we'll try to put the year on the t-shirts. Andrews: Well it seems from the votes here that this was the winner and why don't you see if you can get that disk and take it from there. Ruegemer: The commission did authorize I guess a scholarship for the winner of the contest and that was $100.00. Is that kosher? Andrews: Yep, that's kosher. Ruegemer: Okay. Do you want me to bring that person in at the June meeting to award the $100.00? Andrews: I think you can handle that one. Berg: He's a freshman, he'll be excited. Lash: So we'd be able to alter it if we talked to him about that. We want to have the year on and we may want different colors and things like that. Ruegemer: We can work with him on that. ".... 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 -' B. CHANHASSEN CENTENNIAL COMMI1TEE. Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item. Berg: I think it's rolling in the right way. I think a parade is a great idea. I think of an old time celebration, you have to include the entire High School band. Roeser: They've already been contacted. Chaska and Minnetonka for sure. Possibly Waconia and some of those schools too but we, that's a given as far as the parade is concerned. That's one of the things the committee is probably aligned on... Ruegemer: ...it seemed like a lot of people have been going back and talking to Kerber Boulevard. To have a parade on Kerber Boulevard... Lash: Natural what? Ruegemer: Sitting areas. Designated parade route. Easier for traffic to get in and out of there in case we need to detour people... Lash: When are you thinking about that? Next May? ...""I Roeser: May 5th is the actual 100th anniversary of the city, and that I think falls on a Sunday or Saturday. It falls on a weekend so it's going to work out really good as far as the celebration is concerned. C. IN-LINE SKATING CLINIC. Dawn Lemme presented the staff report on this item. Andrews: No injuries? Lemme: Not that I heard of. We had perfect attendance though... Meger: What were the ages? Lemme: Kindergarten through...grade. The most kids were in the kindergarten to 2nd grade.. . 14 --' 11""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTA nONS: CHANHASSEN RECREA nON CENTER OPERA nONS. Dawn Lemme presented the staff report on this item. Andrews: Okay, let's start talking. Where did you want to start then? Lemme: First of all, do you have any questions or concerns, comments on the fees? Andrews: They look perfect. Lemme: Wow. Roeser: Yeah, I've never seen anything done so well in my whole life. Lemme: Okay. ,.,.... Roeser: The only, the hours of operation. Saturdays. I don't know, don't you think people show up at 6:00 in the morning to do things? Lash: Not if it's not open. Lemme: I think if we find that we're having real heavy demands for that to be open earlier, we can always open it up earlier. Just looking around, you know based on other community centers, recreation centers..J think people sleep in a little bit more on Saturdays. Andrews: Dawn, aren't you going to be the Rec Center supervisor?..Yeah, and what time do you like to get to work on Saturdays? Lash: She's the supervisor, director. They don't have to be there. She'll hire some kid for $5.00 an hour. Lemme: With that, I think we're safer to extend hours or to lower fees rather than try to raise fees and compact the hours. Andrews: Yep. Especially when you first start out. I don't want to be paying staff time to have people just sitting there watching the lights. ,-.. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 -' Lemme: That was my fear on Sundays to be opening up at 8:00 a.m. We're real...with any programming, to really avoid that morning. Sunday morning time for people. So that's why... Lash: Under the first two columns where it says School District 112 and 276. Is that blank because it falls into the next category? Lemme: Yes. Lash: Okay, I just wanted to make sure. Lemme: But I left it open down the road because I am not sure what you're going to want to do on the gymnasium portion. What I figured out after our last meeting is that, there's confusion over rentals because of the different types of amenities that we have within the building. A conference room is run differently than a gymnasium you know, so that's why I think people are kind of like, they were looking at fees for a certain room. Some of you were looking at fees for a conference room. Some are looking at, thinking fees for gymnasiums and those are really two different things. Andrews: Any suggestions from commission members here on gymnasium rental? ....." Manders: Is this split up at all? Are you only talking one court or what are you talking about? Lemme: The gymnasium as a whole. I did want agreement that after hours there would need to be a fee charged to use the gymnasium after normal hours. If there's going to be a lock in or an all night marathon or something like that...charge a fee. One thing Jerry and I talked about was no, we're not going to, jf we. charge an hourly , if we think. of it on an hourly rate type of thing, are we going to incorporate that into our new programs that we've established so that's offsetting some of the cost? How are we, you know we talked a lot about that. Manders: I guess my question is, with both gymnasiums? The school's and our's. I mean are you talking both of them? Lemme: We're not going to have the control over that. Manders: So the School District is separated? How is that separated? Just by an accordion door? 16 ......", I"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lemme: There will be a wall. Currently the School District charges us via building attendants or building supervisors. We're not charged a fee to use their side but we are charged for building supervisors. Roeser: You pay the hourly wage for the janitors. Ruegemer: Right. That's just on the weekends, Saturdays and Sundays. Monday thru Friday we are not paying that building monitor because there are... Andrews: I was just kicking around a number in my head here just because I was trying to think, what would I as a group expect to pay if I want to come in and like take the gym over for a volleyball tournament or something like that. The number I came up with as the base rate was $30.00 an hour and then go up from there. $30.00-$35.00 or based on groups but I think that's even very generous actually. Lemme: For the rentals I can probably come up with some fees. What I wasn't sure on was whether or not you want to do any charging for anyone else. """ Lash: See I guess what I was thinking was the first column, school, civic, church, non-profit. That's going to be CAA. That's going to be all of those kinds of things. I was just looking at, I was thinking no fee for them but a fee for say a private, and I don't even know. I mean what kind of a private entity would want to come rent the gym but I suppose they do. Lemme: There are other programs that are not under CAA and not under the city's... Ruegemer: Junior Olympic Volleyball. Lemme: Right. Are they going to be charged?.. Lash: Well that would fall, would that not fall under non-profit? Andrews: They may not be non-profit. Lemme: I don't know about that. But that's just an example. Lash: Okay. But I guess I was looking at that column as no fee and then we would have to establish for private or business or commercial but I think we would want to review all of those applications very carefully as to what type of usage it is as far as damage to the gym itself. You know do we want to have a Fun Fair set up in there and have people tromping all ~ 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22. 1995 ....", through there with all different kinds of shoes and heels and wet things and all of that or do we want to. personally I feel like we should be a little more selective. Lemme: See I imagine there are going to be times when the school is going to want the entire thing for a Fun Fair type of function and then in the same respect. there's going to be times when we're going to want the entire gymnasium for our city functions. Roeser: Is that going to be a hard surface floor? Lemme: Yes. it will be a hard floor. Cushioned floor. Andrews: Well after listening to Jan. I agree with her about the non-profit groups as just forget it. That's what it's there for. Let's use it. And I also appreciate your comments too Dawn about. and Jan. about damage. You know again I have this image of the square dance group coming in there and just ripping the heck out of the floor and saying thank you very much and see you later. Lash: And paying $30.00 an hour. and doing $5.000.00 worth of damage. Roeser: What about if a non-profit. just have them kind of base it the same way you do with the school. Pay whatever it costs you to keep. You can't not have that building supervised. right? .....", Lemme: Right. Roeser: I mean if a church wants to come in there and have an all night lock-in for their teenagers. you're still going to have to have someone there. Andrews: To cover staffing costs. Manders: ...cover minimal costs. Roeser: Yeah. At least pay for whoever has to supervise that all night. The same as you do with the school. Andrews: Good point. Manders: Yeah. I don't see the idea of having. Lash: Although. it will be staffed. 18 ....", ,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Roeser: Well you have to have one person. You'd have to have a janitor there. You can't just, I wouldn't think you can't just let that, say okay here's the key you guys. Go in there and do it. Lash: But it's going to, is it not going to be staffed all of the hours that it's open? Roeser: Yeah, but it's not going to be staffed all night. I'm talking about...if somebody wants to rent it overnight. Lash: Oh no, she's talked about beyond hours...Oh yeah, I agree with that. Lemme: The square dancing group's another example. Unless it's a program that's run under the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Department where we're establishing a fee based on what it's going to cost us to clean that place up after we've had tap shoes all over the floor, then what it's going to cost us to pay an instructor. Andrews: We're not going to have tap shoes on a wood floor. ,... Huffman: Not having black soled shoes on a wooden floor. Lemme: Okay. Lash: But how are we going to control some of that stuff? If we're in some kind of an arrangement with the school where they allow us to use their's for whatever we wanted to use it for. Let's say we wanted to use it for the Easter Egg Hunt, and it had to be inside. And we're allowed to theirfs. They, of course, will be expecting for a Fun Fair and those kind of things that they will be able to use our's at no fee, or whatever, without restrictions of what. Andrews: This is one of the joys of joint ownership. I'm sure if it's their group and it wrecks our part of it, we're going to be coming after them saying help us. And if it's the other way around, they're going to be coming to us saying your group wrecked our gym. Fix it. Berg: I look at the use the high school gets though and you can't do more things on that floor than has already been done and it's not getting ruined. They come in once a year in the summertime and take 4 to 5 days and refinish it and it's as good as new again. Lash: Okay. So are they fairly sturdy? Berg: I think they're extremely sturdy. I think you'd have to work to try to permanently damage it. I single handedly have gotten all kinds of water spilled onto that surface and got ~. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ...."I it to buckle and everything else but that's with an awful lot of ingenuity. I don't think it's a major concern. Lemme: We really hope to be able to expand some of our programs to things we've not been able to do. I'm not saying it's...but it might. Some of those things we'll just have to look at and hopefully we'll have a real good...have a lot of programs that...it's going to be used. It's not going to be all... Lash: Well I'll go back to the fees. I feel like if it's the school, civic, church, non-profit type things, there'd be no fee if it's during the normally scheduled operating hours. There would be a fee as far as what we would have to pay someone to be there. For private and business, commercial. I have no problem with having a fee but I don't know, what are we, I have no idea what a reasonable fee would be. Lemme: I can work those figures... Andrews: And for simplicity sake I mean, to me personally it doesn't matter to me if it's private or business to rent something like that. I mean to me why differentiate there. It's a special use for a special group. I mean that's just my personal feeling but why don't you give us some feedback what other cities are doing and take a look at it. ...."I Berg: And I don't know if we've talked about this and I was asleep. If I just want to walk in and use the jump for an hour, do I have to pay when I walk in the door? Lemme: There will be scheduled open gym. Berg: But if it's open gym, and I going to have to pay $1.50 to come into the building like I do at the Community Center? Lemme: Currently there will be times allotted that will be open gym. Open volleyball. Half might be one and might be another. Might be for pick-up's. There's not, we haven't worked on all the fees. We know that we're not looking at doing a membership for the recreation center. We have talked about doing a punch card type system where you possibly would buy a $1.00 amount and then every time you use, every time you attended...that would be subtracted. Every time you use the fitness room, possibly one for open gym~ Right now we charge. for open gym. Lash: It's like 50 cents or something. It's very minimal. 20 ....",,; ,,,,,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lemme: Yeah, it's very minimal...those specific costs have not been worked out as of yet but that's our idea. But not to have a membership. Huffman: Why was that idea turned down? Lemme: What, the membership? Huffman: Yeah. Lemme: Just because of the limited amenities that we have. There's limited space as well. Andrews: Do we need a motion to talk about this or I think we should come back and clean this up. Lemme: Why don't you make a motion centered around the fees basically what Jan had said and you had almost all agreed on. And then we can tackle the next assignment. Andrews: Okay. I'll move that we approve the fee schedule that Dawn has presented to us ~. with the following addition, which would be as far as the gym rental be, or the gym space goes that that be no charge for school, civic, church and non-profit during regular hours and that we would charge a staffing cost during after hours. Berg: Second. Andrews: Any discussion? Andrews moved, Berg seconded that the Pam and Recreation Commission approve the fee schedule presented by Dawn Lemme for the Chanhassen Recreation Center amended so that school/civic/church/non-profit not be charged for the gymnasium during regular hou~, but with a staffing cost after hou~. All voted in favor, except Mande~ who opposed, and the motion canied with a vote of 6 to 1. Lemme: The hours of operation, I think we've touched on that but if you...either approve or to change... Andrews: I guess I feel that we should consider staffs recommendation that we alter Sunday to 10:00 to 8:00. Huffman: Second. ,...... 21 Park and Rec Commission Meetin"g - May 22, 1995 --' Andrews: Well, that wasn't a motion but it was a discussion. Huffman: It was a good motion. I seconded your motion. Andrews: Alright, so moved. Any discussion on that? Andrews moved, Huffman seconded to approve the hours for the Chanhassen Recreation Center as proposed with the change for Sunday hours to 10:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. All voted in favor and the motion canied. Lemme: You know one thing that Jerry and I talked about was, I will not be bringing every small detail to you because I know that that's burdensome but these are some main things. These are some pretty big things. Fees, hours of operation and use priority. These are the big issues so once we get these done, it will only be for other big items... Andrews: Okay. Roeser: This way we can spread out the blame. Lemme: Okay, the next item was the use priority and it's something we have not talked about at all yet really... --' Lash: I like it. Berg: I second. Andrews: This is consistent with our other programs, correct? Lemme: This is one thing that Jerry does with, for field space for the different youth organizations. If he has meetings with the coaches and they schedule the space according to what's available. It's very possible...because you could have 20 requests on your desk at the exact same time on Monday morning when you open it up for requests and how are you going to judge that when all the youth sports associations that are residents are all considered equal status so my proposal is to do what Jerry does and then have a meeting with the youth sport associations knowing what the available time is. And by available time meaning...open gym time. Park and Rec programs. Andrews: I like your priority schedule. I'll make the statement, just for my own clarification. That would be that number 2, resident youth sports associations to me should say, youth 22 .....,., ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 sports associations which serve residents so that it's not construed to mean that only an organization that has it's incorporation or address in the city of Chanhassen. Lemme: Jerry, do you have some type of policy on that? I mean if they have one resident on their team, do they have full access to the fields? Lash: No. Ruegemer: Basically mine is based on percentage of residents and...schedule that as individual team versus as association. So for exampl~ CAA, if they have two kids on their team, they can sub out, they've got...you get every Tuesday and Wednesday from now until the rest of the summer for that, as far as the Association. That basically is based on the individual teams. Andrews: I don't have any complaint. I just think we're all trying to accomplish the same thing. Lemme: Resident Youth Sports Association, or Youth Sports Associations serving residents. ,.... Now everyone may say, well your residents can come into our association but... Andrews: We're taking care of the people that paid for the building basically, and that's our residents. Lash: Right. What about, what I don't see on this list is private or business things. Lemme: For the gymnasium? Lash: Yes, and there may never be that. Lemme: Basically they're going to be given, if they're going to...probably not going to be a lot of times for those private rentals...from what we're looking at already. We could fill that day between Park and Rec, youth sports associations and school district activity. Andrews: And that's what it's there for. Lemme: So this is for the gymnasium I'm talking so basically 6 is all others. Lash: So where would Scouts fall? Say they want to have a father-daughter night or something. Have a dance in there. ,.... 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ......" Lemme: They'd be number 6. They'd be all others... Lash: No non-residents would take, non-resident youth sports would come before local. Andrews: But it is a gym though. Lash: Yeah, I know but sometimes you use it for other things. You know what if you're going to have, like you have that, you guys that Valentine's Day, the father daughter something. I know the Scouts usually have something like that too. Lemme: That's, you know we surely could incorporate that in there. If you wanted to say civic and then you say non-profit. Huffman: Wouldn't that fall into Jerry's discussion last time in reserving the space for the time frame of the gymnasium. You could go, if you're a Scout organization, reserve it 12 to 18 months ahead or something like that and then you're beating out non-resident youth sports associations because you have the capability of planning that far ahead. Lemme: One of the things that we talked about is that people will not be able to reserVe that far in advance. ...."I Huffman: We talked about locals being able to. Minnetonka, my rusty memory, Minnetonka has a policy, what 12 to 18 months out. Single use. Meger: For a one time shot, yeah. Huffman: And that's exactly what Jan is talking about. A single use shot. Y oulre talking the bottom thing is a block scheduling versus a one time use. And if the Scouts know they've got a father-daughter dance coming over, mother-son or significant other. Andrews: I guess the way I would handle this would be to say that a dance is a sport type use. An active use and I think that could be construed to be an item 2 priority, in my oplOlon. Lash: But what if we said youth organizations or associations and took sports out? Would that complicate it too much? Andrews: The one thing I don't want to do is have somebody taking the gym that could have used the other rooms because that gym is an active use area. 24 ....", JIIf""', Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lemme: If we havve the room free for civics, then they're going to want the gym instead of the conference room which we charge for. Lash: Dh yeah, that's true. Lemme: I had put civic and if there's an open space and we can get them scheduled in, sure they'd be given priority but I guess my thought was that CAA and Park and Recreation has been bumped so many times... (There was a tape change during this part of the discussion.) Andrews: ...can we defer that one to the Director? Roeser: A lot of that's going to rest on you anyway Dawn. You're going to have to kind of. Lemme: That's something that I wanted to give consideration too and how far out can people reserve. I did write in here to, I think I did. Something about deposit. Dh, deposit's refundable will be required for private and commercial use...and then a non-refundable down ,-.. payment and that's within well, currently we're not requiring civic and non-profit groups to pay deposits. Andrews: I would be very cautious about that. If you don't get money, you don't have a committed group and you'll get people just like groups that I know that will reserve the room as a back-up for an outdoor use and if it's a nice day, they're not going to bother to call you because they've got no money invested. If they don't have money invested, it doesn't matter. So I would be. Lemme: Are deposit's required in the middle school, do you know Fred? Berg: I don't know. I don't believe so. Andrews: It can be a token amount but at least you'll get a phone call from somebody saying we don't need the space anymore. Would you send us our money back. Huffman: Rented the pool. It was only $18.00 for an hour but we did have to put a deposit down on it for a girl's, for our daughter's birthdayparty...we did. Yeah. And even if it's $5.00 but yeah, Jim's right. Anything, any value of it is. Ruegemer: Should that say in there too, if a phone call isn't received and we get a cancellation, that a small portion of that deposit will be taken? ,.,.... 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22. 1995 ....,.I Huffman: The whole deposit. Oh yeah. you lose it. Because it's not a. it doesn't have to be a significant amount that's gone. Andrews: Just because you're not there doesn't mean you haven't used the space. because you have. You've deprived somebody else from using it. Lemme: So if you give them...time for cancellation and if they're not cancelled within 2 weeks. a month or what we determine. they lose their deposit. Andrews: Yep. And if somebody were to whine about that. I mean let's say it's a large reservation scheme that you've worked out here for some group. Then what you could say is if you can find another group to take your space. we can talk but otherwise. no. You don't want to get stuck. Lemme: Chances are we'll be turning away other groups. you know for people... That's the other reason why we wanted to do this...at least twice ~ year meeting where... Andrews: I'm sure we'll be making mid-course corrections here for probably a year or two. Berg: I'd like to suggest that with the block scheduling, that we think about extending that 3 months to at least 4 months. Thinking for basketball season for example. That still comes even a little bit short. Then they don't have to worry about continuity. ...""" Lemme: I just kind of was obviously thinking quarterly but that's an option... Andrews: How quick are those soccer fields going to be ready? Next year?... Lemme: That brings me to just a finalize to make sure we're clear on the churches that have been calling me. That was one...on the block scheduling time. there's no way a church is going to want to come in there to rent. Even from 10:00 until noon if they know that they may be kicked out after 4 months. What are we going to do on that? Andrews: Oh well. Lemme: No. you had said you didn't want that but if we're saying just 4 months. but then we've also said that school. civic group. non-profit has 3 gymnasiums. I don't know if they're still going to want to rent or not. I'm thinking probably not but it still would be a possibility I suppose. Berg: Are you talking about renting for services? 26 .....", ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Ruegemer: Correct. I think that's. Berg: Can't you, you've got to build in time for open gym. I can't imagine you're going to have any demand from CAA on a Sunday morning for practice space. Could you block that in also? Block in open gym or block in whatever you want so if somebody wants to rent it to use it for a service on a Sunday morning, you'd never be scheduling any youth activities then. Isn't that a possibility? Andrews: I just get nervous about any open ended, long term. Roeser: Yeah, I wouldn't go any more than 4 months with anybody. Huffman: We're not a rental property. We're not a strip mall. Lash: Well and I guess I'd have a problem with a church, even though it's non-profit, coming iri and using the only gym we're going to have in town every Sunday morning for free, and then it's not available for open gym. You know not everybody goes to church. You know some people might, that might be a good time for them to go and not have it be real crowded ,.... and go shoot hoops or do whatever and we're not going to get anything out of it. You know if we were going to charge them, I'd think different but. Lemme: The group that I've talked to is looking at, they would like the gym and the conference room. I'm sure both of them if they could have them both. Huffman: Absolutely. Andrews: Who wouldn't? Huffman: Cheap. I want it for that time. I'll go out and find 600 people to put... Andrews: Why don't we do this, so we can kind of make step by step progress here. We talked about use priority for the gymnasium and I think we had agreement on that. Why don't we get a quick motion on that and approve that section and then move on to this discussion of, let's take care of the conference community rooms and then come back to this any long term priority discussion so we can kind of get certain things behind us for good. Can I have a motion on the gymnasium space here. A priorities list please. Berg: I move we accept staff recommendations for the use priority for the gymnasium. Andrews: With the addition of number 6 as all others? I""" 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 -' Berg: Yeah. Huffman: And the addition of a maximum of what, 4 months? Berg: Yes. Andrews: Okay. Is there a second to that? Meger: Second. Andrews: Any discussion? Berg moved, Meger seconded that the Pmk and Recreation Commission approve the Use Priority for the Gymnasium as follows: ) 1. City of Chanhassen, Park and Recreation 2. Resident youth sports associations 3. School Districts 112 and 276 4. Non-Resident youth sports associations 5. School districts other than 112 and 276 6. All others .."" All voted in favor and the motion canied unanimously. Andrews: If we could, could we just quickly go over the community meeting rooms and conference rooms and take care of that one in a similar fashion. Is there anybody that has any additions or ideas for that, or changes to that list? Lash: What's City of Chanhassen other? Lemme: Planning Commission for having a special meeting on a new development. Don Ashworth wanting a special... Any other city, outside of Park and Rec. Meaning City Hall. Andrews: Okay. Any other changes? If not, somebody want to move to approve this list? Huffman: Well let's get it on the table. The church issue. Churches wanting to rent long even long term conference space in there. Is that something we're interested in? Andrews: Well we can handle that. 28 -# ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lash: Let's do the priority first. I move we accept staff recommendation for priority for the community meeting rooms and conference rooms. Andrews: Is there a second to that? Roeser: Second. Andrews: Any discussion? Manders: Are we going on 4 months there or 3? Andrews: We'll get back to that. That's not part of the motion so we'll come to that. Huffman: Well I want to discuss that. Let's clear this up. Because if we're going to set a priority... Andrews: Sir, sir. That's not part of the motion. We'll come back and deal with that in a separate motion because I think that's the best way to handle it is to talk about policy in a ,..... separate motion. Huffman: Well, okay. Andrews: It's two separate issues in my opinion. Huffman: Well it's not in mine. Andrews: Any other discussion? Lash moved, Roeser seconded that the Pmx and Recreation Commission accept the following for Use Priority for the Community Meeting Rooms/Conference Rooms: 1. City of Chanhassen, Park and Recreation Department. 2. City of Chanhassen, All Other Departments. 3. Resident Civic/Church/Non-Profit/Schools. 4. Resident Business/Corporate or Private. All voted in favor, except Commissioner Huffman who opposed, and the motion eanied with a vote of 5 to 1. ""'" 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 --' Andrews: Okay now, let's come back on this issue of long term rentals. I personally am concerned about that. Partly as a fairness issue between existing churches, new churches or other non-profit groups. I'm a member of a church that's about to spend a million dollars on an addition. We'd love to come down here and rent the space and not spend the money so it's, to me it's almost a fairness issue in one way and I'm also concerned about, was it Ian that made the comment. Was that you about the, what if there is a group of people that Sunday morning is their day off or they don't go to church or they're from a faith that doesn't worship on Sunday's. They're out. What are they going to do? So that's my feeling. Lash: And all of those people would be taxpayers. You know and the church is not paying taxes. Granted, the congregation members but they may not be even residents. They could be from who knows where. Roeser: We could really get in trouble I suppose if we said we weren't going to rent for church services. Lash: To what? Roeser: If we just straight up would not rent for church services. Andrews: Well we just talked about, you can't say church. You've got to say 4 months or no more than 4 months. -'" Lemme: ...no longer than 4 months. I can imagine, at least the two churches that have been talking to me saying they're going to have to, we're going to have to play it by ear for you after these 4 months because they're going to change all of their materials I'm sure to say, meeting in Chanhassen Recreation Center, 8:00 to 10:00 every Sunday morning not even knowing that they're going to be able to there the next 4 months. Berg: Because the reality of the situation is, they can go right next door to the other gymnasium and get it. The School District, through Community Ed. Lash: For an ongoing? Berg: They won't be paying for it but they're going to be able to guarantee that they can have it 12 months of the year. Lash: But then they're paying for it. Berg: Exactly right. 30 -" ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lash: See if they were paying us for it, I wouldn't have as much of a problem. I have a problem with giving it up, blocking it out for nothing. Roeser: It just seems to me that Sunday morning is a good time for open gym for people that don't go to church or go to church on Saturday night or you know. I really think, I hate to say this but I'm kind of opposed to renting it for church services. Lash: I don't have a problem with the rooms, conference rooms. You know if it's a small budding church that has 50 members right now or something and they want to rent out the community room every Sunday, I don't have a problem with that. It's not tying up the gymnasium, plus we're getting some money out of it. Berg: I think it's better to be consistent all the way across. Meger: I think it is too. I think we need to set our block of time and. Andrews: Live with it. ,-. Meger: And it doesn't matter what congregation it is. Berg: You can give them the number of Community Ed and say there's a building right next door that you're perfectly capable of renting. Lemme: I think there's a waiting list of people who want to get into Chan Elementary and it will be the same for their's. Andrews: We built the facility with a certain purpose in mind and I'm really concerned that if we overbook it right away, we've already created a shortage before you've even opened the doors and I'm concerned about that. Meger: I have a question regarding the blocking time concept. If you're saying okay, you can rent a block for January, February, March, April. At what time can you start reserving the May, June, July, August? Lemme: That's what we need to determine. How many months in advance can you... I can't remember what Chaska's, I don't have my two packets...but I think they have. Meger: I think I'm getting confused if we're talking about two different things where I can reserve something 4 months ahead of time and I can reserve for that month only. So in other ." 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ....." words, in January I can reserve as far out as May but I can't go into July so then the next month I would look at it. Roeser: Oh, why not, yeah. Just extend it. Meger: So and that's why I'm not sure exactly what we're talking about. Roeser: Maybe the last month of your 4 month, you know. That would really be difficult though wouldn't it for you? It'd drive you crazy because if you had a whole bunch of people with different times but maybe you shouldn't be able to rent 4 months ahead except at the end of your, or into your fourth month. Huffman: Well that's a good issue and that's why I voted no on the last amendment because when you put a church in that situation, that's exactly what you've created. The opportunity for them to do that. Andrews: Is to extend. Huffman: Yes. But we're singling out an issue, and a single reason here and. Andrews: We can't do that. ....." Huffman: Well, I'll put my feelings out there. I think it smacks a lot of Eckankar. I think there's a lot of people here who said if there was some prior planning done, there's still a lot of feelings' running high, a lot of different directions, a lot of different ways. And good or bad, it's not my decision to make those judgments but Jim your comment was, we're building a facility with a specific purpose in mind and it is not to exclude anybody, but it's also not to lock up this building for a church service. Andrews: Or other non athletic use really. Huffman: Anything like that, absolutely. But I'm going to deal with the issue straight on. There's two people standing out there in line who'd like to very much put this into almost a retail Sunday morning service and that makes me very nervous. So I'm not trying to be rude to anybody but I do want the gym open on Sunday mornings. And if they'd like to come in and rent it afterwards, whatever, that's fine but there's a lot of people out there that's a lot smarter than me and once they figure this system out, they're going to find the loopholes. And that's what I'm concerned about. Berg: Is it realistic they'd come in and rent this before 10:00? 32 ......-I ,.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lemme: Yes they could if they wanted to... Berg: There's always that option for them too. Andrews: My feeling would be that we would remain with this 4 month block irregardless of what their organization is and then as part of that system, have a requirement that they could not apply for a new block until at least a 60 day wait. Berg: Make it 30 days. Andrews: Well I'm not saying they'd have to wait until 30 days from the end. I'm saying halfway through their 4 months they could apply for the next. Lemme: You'd probably want to shorten your time for. Like I say, we're going to have so many different groups. It's all going to be on the computer. It's not going to be my personal nightmare to figure out the scheduling. That's what we have a really nice computer system for. '" Andrews: Well maybe we say that you can apply for an additional, or another block 30 days before the end of your current block expires. Something like that. I don't know how to handle that but I see the problem of just extending it. I mean I could see somebody saying, well if it's a 4 month block, I'll apply today and I'll apply tomorrow and I'll apply the day after and I'll apply the day after. Roeser: Well, we'd have to prevent that. Andrews: And we don't want that, no. We want to make sure that a new group may have the opportunity to, if they have a use that would also be deserving. Lemme: Is it a norm that the, your sports associations would be more months or is it more say, is it mainly like 3 months and then there might be a couple weeks tagged on...re-extend their contract 30 days prior to that 3 month ending. Andrews: Well they don't have to take the full 4. They could say we only need 3. Well, let's book 3 but I also see the point of a 4 month, a lot of seasons are more than 3 months now so. Ruegemer: I can see a longer period too for the application process. I see all the applications for basketball in July, and your season starts the first of the year. ,...., 33 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22. 1995 ......,# Lemme: That's a good point. Andrews: Well programming is different than what we're talking about I think. Any more comments? Meger: Well. I'm wondering about the 4 months too when you have crossing over of seasons so. Andrews: It'd work out. Lemme: ...work out that those few sports associations...the amount of time. Berg: ...to the sport to the season in which it belongs. Andrews: What does that mean? Roeser: No soccer in January. Huffman: I like it though. I thought it was good. Whatever it meant. I liked it. Berg: BasketbaU's a winter sport. Volleyball stops in the fall. That's what I mean. --' Andrews: Play soccer all year. Lemme: Alright. Did someone want to clarify this? Roeser: Nobody wants to clarify this. Huffman: No. I'm backing off. I mean I'm running with the herd now. I'm backing off. I made my statement. Lash: I don't think you've changed your mind and I don't think you're running contrary to the herd. What I heard was that. from the herd. is that nobody was interested in having a church corrie In. Andrews: A long term user. I don't like singling out churches. Lash: No. okay but some. in a non athletic use to be blocked for a long term in the gym. 34 -" ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Berg: At the expense or detriment of somebody who wants to use the rec center for recreation. Manders: Especially when it's free. Lash: Right. I mean I certainly, and an easy way to get around it I think was Ron's suggestion is just block open gym. Roeser: Why not just have Sunday as open gym and then we wouldn't run into this. Say well if someone calls, it's open gym on Sunday. Lemme: The city can absolutely do that. In fact that was the intention... What about 8:00 to 9:45? Roeser: That, yeah. Lash: If they want to rent it, I don't have a problem with that. r- Roeser: But if our opening time is 10:00 in the morning on Sundays, because that's what you're going to do right? The way it looks. And then from 10:00 until whatever it's open gym for anybody that wants to come in there and play pick-up basketball or volleyball or whatever. Andrews: I personally, I think we're making a mistake here by singling in on a certain day or a certain group because there will be some other group that will come along with a need like this that we've got to think about and I think we just make a simple, straight forward policy. My preference would be a 4 month block with, you could re-apply no sooner than 30 days prior to expiration to the end of your 4 month block. Roeser: Are we talking about the same thing or did I lose something here? Andrews: No, that's what we've been talking about. You know it might be a Sunday morning church service but it could be a Thursday night something or else too. I mean we need to have a rule that's simple and apply it equally to all. I mean I don't think you make rules specifically aimed at one group to deny uses. Lemme: So it's just saying if the Girl Scouts want to block out a rental of the conference room, they can do it for 4 months at a time from 6:00 until 7:00, every Tuesday but then at the end, 30 days prior to the end of their time slot, they get to re-apply. No guarantee. ~. 35 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ..".,I Andrews: I don't know, I mean no matter what system you come up with, there's going to be, there's no right or wrong way to do it. Lemme: That's what I'm saying. Across the board. Andrews: Well I don't know how you can pick and choose. I donlt know how you can pick and choose. Berg: That's how we get in trouble when we decide one has priority over the other. Andrews: I mean we have an existing prioritization system. If you have conflicting requests, then you go back to your priority schedule that says well, if it's a City of Chanhassen Park and Rec use, and we've got another application from a non-resident youth sports association. Okay, we're going to take the city of Chanhassen first. That's how you're going to have to do it and if it doesn't work, it will have to come back to us and then we'll fix it but I just get really afraid whenever we try to single out a group and say you're a group we really would like to not see use our facility. I don't think we should do that. I mean I think we've got to give everybody the rules and say if you can play by the rules, fine. Meger: I'm comfortable setting that rule as long as we're going to have a chance to look at ...,,;;I the frequency of open gym. That will be one of the things that you will bring to us. Andrews: Sure. Well that's part of the programming duties. And I agree with Dave on that. I think we should be very liberal on programming open space. Open times. Lemme: We plan on that. Meger: And that's just one of the things. I wasn't sure if that was something that you were going to bring or that wasn't considered a big item. ' Lemme: And I should mention, the exception to the rules is, Chanhassen Park and Recreation does not need to rent a facility 4 months in advance. If we want to book it for 2 years from now... Andrews: Absolutely. Lash: I want to go back. I just had a thought about this and I think with the community room, the ones where we get a fee, I don't have as much of a problem with allowing term booking. Say it was a card club and they're going to meet once a month for, and they want to book it for 4 months whatever and they're willing to pay the fee, as long as they fit within 36 ....", ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 the priority list here and no one else above them. I don't have a problem with that. I think where I have the problem is with the gym because it's free and I don't want people homing in on the gym and using it for non-athletic type things because they can get it for free on a long, ongoing basis. Lemme: You want it to be real...good pads on open gym times and make sure that that's being used from open to close for these sports associations. For youth recreation. Lash: I'm thinking okay, and I'm trying not to specifically be pointed at one group but the church group, or say it's some other group, I don't care what group it is. What if they came to us and said, well we want the gym every Saturday night from 7:00 to 10:00 for 4 months. Andrews: No way. Lash: I'm not going to be open to that unless it's a. Andrews: An active use. "...... Lash: Yeah, an active use type thing. Andrews: That's going to be your job Dawn. To direct those people to the proper facility. I mean I agree with Jan 100%. I don't want a book reading, or poetry club taking the gym. And I think that's common sense. Lash: And I guess that will end up being the problem of the scheduler to determine which facility is the most appropriate for the use. And if it's someone who could play cards just as well in the community room but they don't want to pay the fee, that's going to be up to you to say well the gym, the priority for the gym is active use and maybe that's something that we need to say in our. Andrews: Well I think it should say right in the rental agreement the intent of this facility is for active use. Berg: That's a g06dpoint. Meger: I'll just add on to what Jan had said a little bit. 1 kind of go a little bit of the opposite of what she just said in regards to more concern over the gym versus the community room. I think we need to have the same blocking for both because I'd hate to see somebody say every Saturday from 1:00 until 2:00 for the next 2 years I'm going to use the community room when that may be a time when other residents, that's the only time they can get in there r- 37 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ....,I and somebody already has it blocked out for a year or two so I would say to remain consistent with both. Lash: I agree with that. .. Manders: I agree with that. Lash: And one other point that I thought that we discussed, as far as the fees, and boy I sure sound like I'm a super Scout supporter here but remember when we got into that discussion. We said if the Scouts or some of those non-profit type organizations needed to use one of these rooms on an ongoing basis for a meeting, that the fee would be very nominal, like 75% less. I recall that amount being thrown out. And when I looked at this, I don't see that reflected on here. Lemme: I did figure...when we went through that and giving the leeway on percentages and when I went to 75% of that for a civic group, of $10.00 is $2.50 an hour. It just seems so minimal and then to put that to the same use for a church or non-profit, then again you're excluding certain groups. You're saying civic groups are $2.50 but if you're a church but you're also non-profit or you're a rotary club, I mean they're paying to use other facilities for meetings and their group...category as non-profit so I felt it was minimal enough to warrant, as far as I know, the old Village Hall is still going to be available for free for Scout groups. Potentially the senior center will be another location, although Todd Gerhardt, we should talk to him... Are we going to need to do a minimal fee to rent out the senior center, which is a very nice facility down there. Because otherwise everybody will be flock to the senior center and the senior center...go what? That's something we're going to need to look at but I attempted what I felt was minimal enough but not... ...-I Lash: But they'd still be able to use the schools. The school facilities wouldn't they? I mean that's what we used to do at Chan. We just used the little gym or we used the library, the classroom or whatever and there was no. Lemme: There is a heavy demand on the city... Huffman: They're getting tossed out of those places? Lemme: Yeah. They're not able to use them as much. I don't know if it's...increase in troops or what but we get calls all the time. All the time. Huffman: It's legal based. They're getting thrown out of places because it's a public facility and by law the thing's... 38 -' .jI!II"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Lemme: And the schools are using their buildings for more and more things. So the civic groups are getting... Andrews: My guess is we'll probably have a few groups approach us on a hardship basis I imagine too. Huffman: See I go back to your argument too with the Scouts. The Scouts do need a regular meeting time. Should we look at them and say, you can only meet here once a week or whatever it was, once every 2 weeks and then you've got to renew it at 4 months. That's foolishness. Lash: Well, I don't have that much of a problem with that. It will be up to the leader to keep her, his or her act together and renew but I look at, even though this is a nominal fee, $5.00. We usually would meet for more than an hour to start with. We'd usually meet for an hour and a half. If it was just, that's $20.00 a month. We just didn't have $20.00 a month to spend for a place to meet. We just didn't. You know where our dues for each kid was like $10.00 a year. We just didn't have that kind of money. ~ Lemme: Well they can meet for free...at the old Village Hall. Lash: But if the kids are going to school at Bluff Creek, they are not going to go right after school to the Village. Hall. There's not going to be any way for them to get there. Meger: I guess I kind of wanted to back this up and make a motion on our block of time because I think we already approved the fees so I wanted to make a motion that we make reservations. Allow them to meet in blocks of 4 months and that the earliest they could apply for another block would be 30 days from the end of their current 4 month block and that would be for both the gymnasium and the community rooms. Andrews: I'll second that. Any more discussion? Meger moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission accept the stafrs recommendation that reservations will be taken for both the gymnasium and the community meeting rooms and conference rooms on a fi~t come, fi~t serve basis. Block scheduling (i.e. every Tuesday from 3:00 to 5:00 p.m.) will be allowed to meet in blocks of 4 months and that the eadiest they could apply for another block would be 30 days from the end of their cun-ent 4 month block and that would be for both the gymnasium and the community rooms. All voted in favor and the motion canied unanimously. .r- 39 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ....." Andrews: Again I think that we can't deal with every eventuality here with a pre-printed, pre- planned scheme. I'm sure some groups are going to come back to us. Scouts will probably be one of them that may come back and say, it's a hardship. I also don't think it would be totally out of line for the city in their discussions of planning of facilities to consider the fact that maybe that's a quote, unquote, City of Chanhassen programmable item. That the city would want to provide a place for something like that to happen on a regular basis. I think that's again a rule of reason. There are lots of facilities that are available to meet at and I know my wife, she handles what, a Brownie Troop or whatever they are. Those little 5th graders or whatever. Those people can meet in houses. I don't think we have to provide a million facility for that. Now as far as like a troop, what's that a big group? What do you call that? Pack meeting or troop meeting or whatever it is, that's different. Nobody wants 50 kids at their house. But those meetings are what, once a month. Huffman: Weekly. Andrews: Pack meetings are weekly? (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Lash: ...something that just popped into my head. I'd be open if they would want to do a proposal that they do some type of community service for the building. Where they came and did a clean-up or say they planted flowers or they did, washed windows or they did something. -'" Andrews: I would agree with that too. Lash: That we could work out a contract that would be a trade-off for them too. Andrews: Or they could do fund raisers too. W ash cars. Let them hook up the hoses and they can wash cars you know. It's not that hard. Huffman: Dawn you should also be congratulated. This is very, a lot of input. You took a lot of weird information. Collate it and serious, this is, I had no clue this is what we talked about. This is phenomenal. You did a really neat job. You should really be commended. Andrews: Thank you, yes. It's very helpful. Lemme: And as I said, I won't be..J think we've made recommendations on all the topics. I want to thank you for your input and your time. 40 ....." I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Andrews: Alright, thank you. B. FIRST QUARTER 1995. PARK AND TRAIL REVENUE REPORT. Andrews: Is there anything you want to add to this? Looks good so. Look for further updates on that. C. APPOINTMENT OF lWO COMMISSIONERS TO mE PARKLAND ACQUISmON AND DEVEWPMENT. TRAIL CONSTRUCTION AND OPEN SPACE PRESERVATION TASK FORCE. Andrews: I guess the first question I have to ask commission members here, who hasn't served on a task force of some sort yet? Anybody that's missed. We have one right here. Huffman: I won't be here. Oh that's right, I take that back. Andrews: You've got Bluff Creek. Does anybody have any idea how many times this group's going to meet on a monthly basis or is it still totally up in the air? ,....". Lemme: ...meet twice monthly until that voting date... Huffman: I will stand proudly and say, I am a coward. I do not have enough time to do it. Andrews: I don't think anybody's saying they have time but I think it's a matter of both, it's something that has to be done. Berg: I suffered through Community Ed. I can't take this one too. Roeser: I'm suffering with the Chan, what is it, the Centennial Commission. Manders: Were there any volunteers? Andrews: I'm thinking. I'm afraid to do it. Huffman: Would you just like to push that back to the end of this thing and talk about it at the end and keep going? Andrews: Okay, let's do that Let's push this to the end of the meeting. Let's get through all the other reports and then come back to it. r- 41 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ....",tI D. DIRECTOR'S REPORT. Andrews: Any summarization? Lemme: I believe they narrowed it down for interviews. I think... Ruegemer: Interviews will start next Tuesday and Thursday for those two positions. Andrews: One point of note here about the playground legislation. I thought that was really good news there. Lash: I don't get it. What's different about what it is now? Manders: Yeah, what's the deal? Andrews: I think what they're saying here is that anything over 25 is going to be low bidder only. You had to take it regardless if it met, if you thought that you had some. Ruegemer: I think there's, what this has..J don't get the whole deal either here but that there's some, that the city would have some input maybe in the design versus... ......" Lash: I thought we already did that. We didn't already do that? Lemme: I think we opened it up that we'd give them just a basic criteria to include slides, climbing apparatus, those kinds of things but we're not into specifics currently but now we are going to be able to do... Lash: Only if it's over $25,000.00. Andrews: Well we can below anyway before. I think what this does is it gives us more flexibility to make choices. Lemme: Yeah... Andrews: What I understood it to mean is that we could make a choice based on the, you know kind of like that deal. Which one do we like better rather than just who was cheapest. Lemme: Just lowest bid. 42 ...." ,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Huffman: If Mr. Workman is this good, and I know he is, maybe we could get him to move on that education bill. Andrews: Another meeting. Huffman: This is cute but there's other things to be done. Andrews: Any other items anybody wanted to make? Roeser: Where's the Frontier Building? Chris Polster, President of the Chanhassen, is that behind? ...oh, okay fine. Hooked on Classics. Ruegemer: The old Instant Webb building... Roeser: Yeah, back of the Dinner Theater. Lash: Was there supposed to be another page to this? It kind of stopped. ;""". Andrews: Yeah, I wondered the same thing. Manders: Was there any comments on the joint meeting? I missed it. Andrews: I wasn't there either. Lash: They seemed to be, Ithought supportive of the direction that we were taking. They liked the priority list. We had this presentation by, what was her name, Lisa...from the, what was it called, TPO. Andrews: Open space group of some sort. Lash: TPO. Yeah, Trust for Public Lane. There was quite a lengthy discussion I think on the merits of... It looks like Todd is going to be getting more information for us. That will probably help us sort through that. Berg: I had a sense they were at least open to this youth building or something too. That they had heard more about it than we had. They seemed fairly open to...investigating that. Which I see Mr. Polster is behind a little bit. Lash: Well that's a different location. Weren't we talking about, I thought what we had heard about was the... ,.... 43 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ...", Ruegemer: Chris Polster is in the old Frontier building, back there where the dance studio was. Lash: It would be nice if they could come together instead of having two separate entities or. Ruegemer: I don't think that that would happen... Andrews: That's good. Competition will bring out the best. Lash: What are we waiting on Jerry for? Oh, I wasn't quite sure. Andrews: How long have you been married? Ruegemer: 5 years in June. Andrews: You've been practicing enough. Let's get going here. Alright. Any other comments on the Director's Report? If not, let's move on to a very important item, item 5(e). E. INTRODUCTION OF SUMMER INTERN. Lemme: Okay, thank you. As you may have noticed, there's a new...Erik Donley. He is our new Recreation Department's intern and his first day was...and he'll be with us through, until he has to go back to school at the University of Wisconsin in the falL.We'll keep him as long as we can. We have a list a mile long of activities... --' Andrews: Welcome Erik. It's a nice city here. I think there's a lot of things going on. Donley: ...I'm looking forward to really an education based on, Dawn and Jerry both... Ruegemer: You couldn't ask for a better staff to work with. Lash: Let's make sure that we schedule some real hot items on the agenda in the next couple months so he can find. out what it's really like. Andrews: Well welcome Erik. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTA nONS: Andrews: Any commission member presentations? 44 ......" ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Roeser: Anybody go on that bike ride? With the Hennepin County thing. 45 miles. It's July, June 3rd. It's next Saturday. A week from Saturday. I stood by Miller Park yesterday and just let the tears flow. Have you seen that thing? Huffman: Isn't it pretty? Roeser: Oh, it's so nice. I hate to be jealous but that's a beautiful complex. Huffman: When are they completing the asphalt path between Rice Marsh Lake and the Eden Prairie paths so I can actually ride my bike and not fall into one of those 14 foot ruts? Ruegemer: The narrow road... Huffman: Right. Ruegemer: That I don't know...we can find out for you. Huffman: It's not that important. JIll"" Roeser: You could actually pick up a little further up off the swamp there. You don't have to go through that swamp there. Huffman: I don't? Roeser: No you don't... Andrews: Any other comments on the administrative packet? Lash: I was wondering if there's been any response to the memo to Robert Generous, is that how you say it? Regarding the, that Rottlund development. Ruegemer: Oh, the frontage on the lake? I'm not sure where that's at right now. Lemme: We've had some neighbors in asking about that. Lash: What do they want, do you know? Lemme: They really just wanted to know what the plan was. If there was going to be public access. Was there going to be a boat launch there... ,...., 45 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 ...""rI Lash: So did they seem to be supportive of having access or opposed to having access? Lemme: I think they were supportive of passive use. Not of any access. Ruegemer: They were opposed as to any type of, they didn't want a regular DNR launch or something down there. I think they favored like a Greenwood Shores type of thing. Roeser: They're worried about a Carver Beach beach. Huffman: There's already a launch though over on the far side so you can go around on the back side of the lake and get in. It's not an issue of getting on or not... Roeser: I was going to ask one other thing. When they're developing this Frontier Building area with the movie theater and stuff like that. Is that cut and dry or are they still talking? Ruegemer: The entertainment complex? Roeser: Yeah. Ruegemer: No, I think...a 6 screen movie theater. .....,." Roeser: It seems to me that somewhere along the line, we still in this city have no place to do a theater production. We have no place in this town to do a concert. We have no place for anyone to sit down and watch kids perform. Adults perform. I'm wondering why that couldn't be included in that complex, somehow. Even making one of the movie theaters, you know putting a movie theater in, you can hang some lights and that you can run a theater production. They should consider that. Lash: You know they have done some at the Dinner Theater Ron. Roeser: Dinner Theater you can do on Monday night when they're dark. That's the only time you can get in there. Lash: Oh. I know one of the elementary schools put on a little production there this year and they were very. Roeser: But you can only do it on Monday nights. Tuesdays. Monday and Tuesdays they're dark. Lemme: This is all private. 46 -" """ Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 Roeser: Yeah, the city has nothing to do with that. Lash: So is it the guy from Waconia? Ruegemer: I don't know. I think Brad, Brad Johnson is the one who's doing the... Huffman: Is he going to bring in 6 crummy little movie theaters like little tiny box, crummy, dinky things? Lash: Sure. Ruegemer: Well they're talking about Pauly's moving over there and being more of a sports type of a bar...present location. Lash: At one time I had heard that the owner or whatever of the Waconia theater was the one who was interested and that it would be similar to his operation there, which I think would be great. """ Roeser: It's just something that I think should be considered, I don't know. Huffman: I'd give up the golf course. Seriously, I'd give up the golf course. I would say dump that referendum immediately and put in for a theater. I would go for that. I really do. Roeser: ...integrate it into the development of that Frontier building. But that's. Andrews: Is HRA behind that or is that Council? Ruegemer: ...I don't know. Andrews: Any other comments on the Administrative Packet? If not, that takes us back to the item 5(c), which is the two commission volunteers for the task force. Lash: A lot of lap looking going on here. Andrews: I'll volunteer. I don't know when or how I'm going to do it but I guess I feel it's important and I don't want to see it not be done. Is there another volunteer? Berg: I'm looking at Jan. "..... 47 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 1995 .....", Lash: You know, everybody was saying what they were struggling with. I'm just struggling. I don't even want to start the list because it will sound like I'm whining but I'm taking 4 classes this summer. I'm student teaching. I'm working part time. I just can't. this is not a good year. Summers are usually a little bit better but if I was going to do it, I'd want to have my whole heart into it and I just know that I wouldn't be able to do that this summer. Andrews: Well I think we're all busy. Lash: I know. Meger: Do we have to know tonight? Andrews: Jane, if you really feel strongly. Ruegemer: We can have 3 volunteers. Meger: Well as an alternate. My concern is that I'm up for a new job which will require quite a bit of travel and if I do get it, I will not be available so that was my big concern and I don't know yet. Andrews: Okay, fair enough. I guess we've got Jim and Jim with. -.till' Lash: Maybe we should just make everyone on the task force. It'd be an easy way to choose. Their name would have to be Jim. . Andrews moved, Huffman seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion canied. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 48 .....",