PRC 1994 03 22
I"'" CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 22, 1994
Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Ron Roeser, Jim Manders, Jan Lash, Jane Meger,
and Fred Berg
MEMBERS ABSENT: None
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; and Dawn Lemme, Program
Specialist
APPROV AL OF MINUTES: Berg moved, Lash seconded to approve the Minutes of
February 22, 1994 as amended by Jan Lash on page 14 to the word raffle to rappala. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
I"'"
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
LEROY BITELER. CHANHASSEN SNOWMOBILERS. FUTURE MODES OF
TRANSPORTATION. SOUTHERN CHANHASSEN RAILROAD CORRIDOR.
LeRoy Biteler: Thank you. My name is LeRoy Biteler. I am a member of the Southwest
Trail System and a member of the Chanhassen Snowmobilers and basically my objective, do I
have to stand in front of this? ...My objective is to discuss with you the abandoned railroad
tracks that run between Chanhassen and Chaska to be allowed as a snowmobile trail and I
believe most of you received what Todd sent you in the mail. Have you had opportunity to
read that? Okay. Just a little bit about the trail system and myself I guess. I have been in
Chanhassen for 10 years and been a member of the Snowmobile Club for the past 10 years
and have been either President or Vice PIesident about 5 out of those 10 years so I do have
some pretty good knowledge and background as to what's been going on in Chanhassen
through those years. And the gentleman sitting here is Mike Farkas and he's done a lot of
the trail work along with myself. Our objective, our main objective is to eliminate, as I
mentioned in the letter, some of the trail running south on Highway 17. Get out of the
residentially type area and onto an area such as the railroad bed that is a better thoroughfare
and outlet to the Chaska trail system and to the State trail system in the river bottom area
which gets us further out into the residential communities. And I guess I would just like to
answer any questions that you guys might have. You certainly understand where our trail
would go and start and stop.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
...",t
Andrews: You're looking for our support for this concept to take it to Hennepin County or
who would be the responsible authority here?
LeRoy Biteler: We have talked to the Hennepin Parks and the Railroad Authority and asked
them of their opinion, if they would allow us to use this trail system during the winter months
and they said, first of all our procedure is that you must go to the individual cities and get
permission from them and then come to us and then, if the City approves it, chances are
down the rest of the road, the Park Authority and the Railroad Authority would approve it.
Mike Parkas has had personal communication with those people by telephone.
Lash: LeRoy, can you get into the access and...
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah. I don't see Lake Riley on here. That's kind of...oh okay.
Hoffman: This is a trail, comprehensive trail map. Not snowmobile trail maps...
Mike Parkas: ...here we are right here. Okay, this railroad bed comes right along the edge
of Lake Riley where you would access it. It's probably right about in this area right here,
which is just over the border.
Roeser: You can go right up from the lake onto the track can't you?
.....I
Mike Parkas: Right. It's basically a little embankment but we can go right up from the ice
to the track and then down the track which is really nice. And then we can access it, we
have a property owner over here that we're trying to connect up with right now to access
from there and then come down like this off of this, what road is that? Lyman Boulevard,
yeah. And that's where we would access onto the lake and then up onto the railroad bed and
that would take us, that would veer around the city as much as possible.
LeRoy Biteler: And this takes up, when it connects up to Chaska. Is this railroad bed right
there...Okay, this connects to Chaska's trail system right down in here someplace.
Roeser: Okay, then you can pick up on the trail by the Courthouse and go east towards
Shakopee?
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah. And that gets us into the river bottom. It gets us off of CR 17, which
Chaska has got to reroute next year because it's just building up along CR 17 tremendously
and the same thing's going to happen in Chanhassen.
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Mike Farkas: And that connects up with the state trail down there so it still gives them
access and then they're going to have an access I think out of Chaska. Which they're going
out around Chaska too. I think that's what their plans are.
Andrews: I have a couple questions and that is, do we have a separate area for the
"pedestrian" or cross country skier or hiker? Traffic that would be separate from the
snowmobiles? Would they be sharing the same path in this situation?
Hoffman: The width up there varies but essentially that would be a shared use situation.
Andrews: One of my concerns would be that being that's a flat, relatively flat. It was graded
that way for the railroad, I would think there would be difficulty with speed. I think because
it's almost an ideal track for high speed that it's flat and probably level, I would think that a
lot of people would find it real interesting to see how fast their snowmobiles would go. I
guess I'm concerned if there is pedestrian traffic, those people would be in danger.
Mike Farkas: That's a possibility but what I talked to Del Miller about, about this type of
railroad bed. Is most of your cross country skiers won't go on it because they're rather go on
,...... a looping type of cross country trail. We had discussed that with him where there is a
possibility there would be some cross country skiers on it but most of them do like a looping
trail because this trail will basically take them, it's a one way shot out. Straight out and back
where they more than likely would like the looping type trails because we did discuss that.
That was Del Miller with the Hennepin Parks.
LeRoy Biteler: You also have frequent intersections crossing TH 10 1 inbetween each area
there and this trail, as in other areas, we have a railroad bed that takes us from Highway 7
into Shorewood. From Highway 7 into Victoria. That's also an abandoned railroad bed that
we've used as a snowmobile trail for many years. We see probably more walkers on there
than I have been cross country skiers. But not to say that there's any difference between
those two but the skiers don't seem to be using that trail. I don't recall seeing a skier on
there. It's not saying that they're not going to be.
Mike Farkas: I've seen one or two.
LeRoy Biteler: I've seen people out walking their dogs and a few joggers on the trail. Not
an abundance like we would expect of course during the spring fever times...
Lash: On the top of the map that we have on our literature that we received it's got, and I'm
assuming that you're going to want to go through Minnetonka and the Luce Line, is that what
it's called?
,......
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
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Roeser: No. Luce Line's way over by Wayzata.
Lash: Okay, what this anyway, it's got an 11:00 p.m. curfew, 20 mph maximum speeds.
LeRoy Biteler: That's through Shorewood. I was going to bring that up.
Lash: Are you proposing something like that?
LeRoy Biteler: Not at this time. Shorewood has proposed that due to all the, it really goes
through a large residential housing area there and that's why they had proposed that and done
that. And we have patrolled that and issued citations and done ticketing and things like that
and that's something that could certainly be done out here.
Meger: One of the reasons that you listed for wanting to use this trail is it's safer than road
ditch line. If you're trying to access the same area now, how much of the trail that you
would be using would you have to go on a road ditch currently? So on Highway 17, how
long of that is.
LeRoy Biteler: Oh I don't know. How far is it from Lyman Boulevard, boy let's see.
Mike Farkas: Down to Chaska.
.."",I
LeRoy Biteler: Down to Chaska you know.
Hoffman: 2 1/2 miles.
LeRoy Biteler: 2 1/2 - 3 miles.
Roeser: And then you have to cross TH 212 right, down there?
LeRoy Biteler: Right. Right at the edge of town.
Lash: And how would people access this? Do they have to trailer to Lake Lucy? Or to
Lake Riley?
LeRoy Biteler: We would be trying to get access down, we go up to, we go south on CR 17
to Lyman Blvd and go, take a left which is what, back east again? I have a hard time
reading a map. Go east, go straight east until you hit the lake. Klingelhutz, John Klingelhutz
owns some property there. We have talked to Brian Klingelhutz. We have not been able to
reach John Klingelhutz yet. But that would be our access from his property onto the lake.
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I"""""'- Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Running the ditch line down Lyman Blvd.
Hoffman: The route they currently follow goes down 1H 101 to Lyman and goes...and then
heads on down to Highway 212. What they'd like to do is come down 1H 101 and then
head east and then across the lake, to the railroad bed and on down.
Manders: There's also a trail along CR 17 isn't there?
Mike Farkas: We'd be eliminating that.
Roeser: That's the ditch they ride now.
Manders: Yeah, that ditch out to TH 5. From Lyman to 1H 5.
Mike Farkas: From Lyman we'd still need to use that part.
Manders: That's what I'm talking about...
,....... Lash: So you're starting at Lake Ann or whatever?
Mike Farkas: Yeah, Lake Ann. We use that as a drop site for the people that commute in
from Eden Prairie or Bloomington. If we get people from there dropping trailers...
Berg: Which part on CR 17 would you be eliminating?
Mike Farkas: A part from Lyman Boulevard down to 1H 212.
Lash: So mostly in Chaska?
Mike Farkas: Yeah, mainly in Chaska...and I don't know if it makes sense to try and
eliminate as much of.
Roeser: It seems a lot safer to me.
Berg: Dangerous stretch at night when you're driving on the road with snowmobilers.
LeRoy Biteler: It's even dangerous for the automobile driver.
Berg: That's what I mean.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
-'
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, with their lights shining through.
Berg: Very disconcerting to have lights coming at you from three different directions at the
same time on a narrow road that's dark.
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah. This is a better option for us to reroute and get to an area that you
don't have automobile traffic. We don't have...
Lash: How about the residential, how many residences is this going to impact?
LeRoy Biteler: On the railroad bed it impacts what I can see, one or two.
Andrews: Is there anybody here in the audience, other than you two gentlemen that wishes to
speak about this? Okay.
Hoffman: I can provide that since the time of writing the memorandum I have spoken with
representatives from Eden Prairie and Chaska in this regard. Again, to update the
commission. From the point at the city of Chanhassen border with Eden Prairie down to
Bluff Creek Drive, we would be working with Hennepin Parks as the governing authority.
Their Board of Directors. From that point, at Bluff Creek where their agreement with the
Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority ceases to the Chaska border down in here. The
Chaska border is actually right here north of Highway 212. You would have to work with
the Hennepin County Rail Authority. Tom Redman, Director of Park and Recreation in
Chaska called this morning and they're going through some discussions on snowmobiling in
their city and they would like to see a trail continuation at this point but he cannot guarantee
that at this point. They'll be discussing that in June or July of this year. Eden Prairie we
thought perhaps that they would allow trail...up in Eden Prairie. They have done that in the
past so some people can get on this trail system but it doesn't look like they're going to allow
snowmobiling from Eden Prairie east. So then we would have to make some type of an
agreement for the short segment of trail from Lake,Riley, which is in Eden Prairie, down to
the Chanhassen border. They said they'd certainly work with us in that regard if the
Commission chose to do that.
....."
Andrews: Is anybody prepared to make a motion to take some action here?
Lash: I make a motion that we place this issue on a future agenda so that it can be open for
public discussion.
Andrews: Is there a second to that motion?
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,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Manders: I'll second that.
Andrews: Any further discussion?
Lash moved, Manders seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission place the
issue of snowmobile trails on the Southern Chanhassen Railroad Corridor on a future
agenda for public discussion. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Andrews: We will bring it up on a short agenda to get going on this. You need to hear from
us by, what sort of time frame to get back to the County?
LeRoy Biteler: Well it's the, from what I understand it's the Hennepin Authority and Parks
that need to make some decisions sometime this summer and I don't know really what their
deadline is. That's why we got the ball rolling now.
Andrews: We appreciate that
LeRoy Biteler: ...talking about next year's winter but that's why we hope to get ahead of the
".... ballgame and not behind it.
Mike Farkas: I stumbled upon it when I was in City Hall talking to Todd...and one thing led
to another and I'm going well geez, now I'm already starting on next year. Then I contacted
Del Miller and then they said that in June they're talking about what they are going to allow.
What they're not going to allow because they have horseback riding people that want to use
it. They have several different, full spectrum of people that want to use it and just
snowmobiling wasn't even brought to their attention at this point. So what we did is brought
it to their attention. We have an interest in possibly using it. Use of this railroad bed.
Andrews: Well we'll put it on an agenda. You'll be notified by staff and we'll try to get this
moving forward. Thank you for coming.
,....,
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
NEIGHBORHOOD MEETING: RICE MARSH LAKE TRAIL EXTENSION TO EDEN
PRAIRIE.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Connie Dufenbaugh
Tim Herberg
8115 Erie Circle
8113 Erie Circle
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: Is the encroachment that the property owners have improved city land or is it the
city would be encroaching on private land?
Hoffman: Private property owners would be encroaching on...city property.
Andrews: Okay. Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak about this issue?
Please come to the podium and state your name and address.
Connie Dufenbaugh: Hi. I'm Connie Dufenbaugh and I live at 8115 Erie Circle in
Chanhassen and I'm right on the line where the existing trail extension is supposedly going to
be going in. It's a gravel road behind our home right now where the utility trucks go behind
and check the water station. And I do have a petition here with several of the people that are
rejecting the trail system and they do not want it to be completed. Simply because I guess
it's supposed to be connecting with Eden Prairie and Bloomington and that entails quite a few
people going through our back yards. Exactly through our back yards. And I realize this is
sometimes a minor issue to the big business people but we are very concerned and we're very
frightened. For our children because of the things we read in the paper and we're just...and
we were wondering if it really. needs to be completed like that. If it can just stay the way it
is and people can just walk on the gravel like they have been and if we could just leave it as
is. And some other questions that were asked of me that you know if I could ask you. Were
there going to be signs for limiting non-motorized vehicles on the system? And also last
winter many snowmobiles were going down that trail and they were not supposed to do that.
And another question that was asked was now that the Lake Susan trail, it's hooked up with
the Rice Marsh Park, people have been coming down and letting their dogs loose and it
causes very unsanitary conditions along our backyards because the children play in the woods.
And that has caused a lot of problems also. Another question was, in Bloomington they have
policing along the bike road, the bike paths and...if you're going to offer anything like that.
Roeser: Any what? I can't hear you.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Connie Dufenbaugh: There were, I guess in Bloomington they have some kind of a security
that rides along the pathways just to check and make sure things are okay. And we were
wondering if that was going to be offered to us. Any kind of a policing system for security.
Thank you.
Andrews: Anyone else that wishes to speak? If so, please come forward and state your name
and address.
Tim Herberg: I have a few questions as far as access. I'm Tim Herberg. I'm just adjacent
to Connie's property. Is there going to be curfews you know for night...or can people go at
midnight through our back yards? Kind of security issues I guess. Also I usually drive down
my dirt road and pick up my trailers and so forth and am I going to have access like I had
before? That type of questions is what I'm looking for. I'm not really pro or con but I just
want to know what's involved and what's going to change.
Andrews: Okay. Can you state your address for the record please?
~
Tim Herberg: I'm at 8113 Erie Circle.
Andrews: Thank you.
Tim Herberg: I don't know, can you answer that?
Hoffman: We'll go ahead and answer them all at once.
Andrews: Sure. Any other comments or questions? Todd, why don't you answer the
questions that we've had so far and help us answer those questions.
Hoffman: The issues, can we leave it as is? That would certainly be up to the commission.
Signs for motorized vehicles and signs for dogs are placed at all entrance points for current
trail systems, as you see it anyplace on the map. From Lake Susan to Rice Marsh. Policing
on the bike paths, Carver County has initiated a bike patrol during the summer months so
there will be a Carver County Deputy on bike patrol this summer. In the event that problems
are...patrol, they will be riding the trail system throughout Chanhassen. In regard to curfews,
the park system has hours maintained at 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. throughout the entire park
system. And driving, as far as driving along that road, that currently takes place to gain
access to the backs of some of those properties. You would have to make a determination if
you would want to continue to take place...
,....
Andrews: So the gravel road that was mentioned then is owned by who?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
....",
Hoffman: City of Chanhassen.
Andrews: Thank you. Any comments?
Connie Dufenbaugh: Todd, would the policing just be going on during the summer months?
Hoffman: Policing, they have snowmobiles trails about so they can do that Our Carver
County Deputies are here full time...bike patrol would be during the summer. They have
snowmobile patrolling in the winter...
Tim Herberg: Are there any signs going to be posted as far as, you know I don't see on the
Lake Susan trail now...posted anything.
Hoffman: Yeah, the hours are not posted on the signs which are currently in place and we
have not had a problem with it to date...
Andrews: Why don't we start with Ian about questions, comments, concerns about this issue.
Lash: Okay. I just have a quick question for Connie and I'm sorry, I forgot your name.
--'
Tim Herberg: Tim.
Lash: Tim. How much usage do you see back there now?
Connie Dufenbaugh: Hardly any at all.
Tim Herberg: We used to have none but it's picked up quite a bit since they opened up Eden
Prairie's...
Lash:, Do you see, wait a minute. .You live there and you see it I don't so I have to go by
your feelings about this but do you think that by paving it it will increase the usage that much
more?
Connie Dufenbaugh: Oh absolutely. By leaps and bounds. I've, seen it happen over at Lake
Susan...and Rice Marsh Park. And our's is right down where the linkage is going to be.
There are going to be so many people that come through the park that there's no way we can
just let our kids just go or they're going to play to have fun. I realize people are athletic.
They like to get out and everything but there are a lot of strange people in this world and
that's our main concern. There's just going to be a lot of different people walking in our
area that we're just not used to. And I don't see why that has to be paved except for, I mean
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
the bike riders, they can just you know ride down a gravel road for a small amount of time.
What is it, 600, how much did you say, about a mile? They can get along without it being
paved.
Lash: Okay. I guess I'm interested in hearing other questions and comments too.
Andrews: Jane.
Meger: I guess the big question that I have right now is I'm a little bit confused because
Connie had stated that there's snowmobilers going down in there now and then when she
asked about security, you said there was some snowmobile security. Is that...
(There was a tape change at this point.)
Hoffman: Go down the trail alignments, if there's snowmobilers...
,....
Meger: Okay. I know that I had ridden my bike up to that point and actually gotten off
because my bike doesn't go on gravel and walked the 650 feet to make the connection. From
personal standpoint I would prefer as a biker, not to have to do that but I can certainly
understand the concerns because I would agree that it will increase the traffic going through
there.
Connie Dufenbaugh: And there are a lot of motorcycles that come down that area to the
park. Just to...and have lunch or whatever and I'm just concerned that they'll start using that
area as a motorized path.
Lash: Is there signage now Todd that says no motorized vehicles?
Hoffman: Yes there is. On segments.
Andrews: Any other comments? Ron.
,-.
Roeser: Well I got a call this afternoon from somebody that said that they were most
shocked and appalled by this petition and said that they definitely favor this thing and there
are quite a few people in their neighborhood that do favor this. Finishing of the bike trail.
They think that it should be done. And my personal feeling is, it's going to be a bike trail
connecting to Eden Prairie. We should let 600 feet of gravel. No, it should be a bike trail all
the way down. I don't know. I bicycle allover this state from one end to the other. I do
not run into all these weird people that ride bicycles. I do not run into all these pets. This
garbage laying on, you know that you hear about. Most bikers pedal along fast. They glance
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
....""
up maybe into your back yard if you're watering your lawn and keep right on going. I think
that this danger thing is so overplayed and so overdone that it's just, I can't believe it I
mean I spend an awful lot of time biking and biking on trails and highways and I just don't
see that.
Andrews: Jim.
Manders: I'm not familiar with the park area there. I guess I've not been down there
personally and my interest is the access to that park area. Is it through that trail or how does
one get to that park?
Hoffman: It's through Erie Circle.
Manders: Okay. So you come up and then the access is.
Hoffman: Erie Circle at this point.
Manders: So that's really at the end of the trail there?
Hoffman:",Yeah. And then there's a small parking lot at the edge of...
-'
Manders: And the property where the trail would go is just right along the edge of the park.
Hoffman: Correct.
Manders: Okay.
Connie Dufenbaugh: And through our back yards.
Manders: That's not your property though.
Roeser: Well that statement too is not true. It does not go through anyone's back yard. It
goes on city property.
Connie Dufenbaugh: Okay fme. It's city property but
Roeser: Not through your back yard.
Connie Dufenbaugh: It's down at the end of our yard.
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Manders: Okay. Well that's what I wanted to make sure I understood. It was right along
the edge of the property. Okay, that's all I had.
Andrews: Fred.
Berg: Yeah I have a couple things. You've obviously done your homework on it. What
kind of evidence do you have that you say you're sure that the usage will increase
dramatically if we complete this 650 feet? Is that more of a gut feeling or have you done
some research in other areas to find out what kind of usage we can expect if that is paved?
Connie Dufenbaugh: There was a trail system that was recently finished I believe two years
ago from Lake Susan in back of people's yards down to Rice Marsh Park and there have
been a lot of people down to the park whereas before there were hardly any. And there have
been quite a few people coming down to where the trail ends and then there's the gravel and
then you know they go down the gravel and then out behind the new homes in Eden Prairie
up there. So there has been quite a few more people.
Berg: Is that due do you think to the new trail or to the increased numbers of people that are
Jf!I"" just moving into that area?
Connie Dufenbaugh: I think it's really from the trail.
Berg: Because the population has increased dramatically around Lake Susan too in the last
year or so. Year to two years.
Connie Dufenbaugh: I used to go over to Lake Susan before.
Manders: How do you get over there now or do you go over there?
Connie Dufenbaugh: I go through Rice Marsh Park and then back behind those homes and
then across TH 101 to Lake Susan.
Manders: So you follow the trail over to it?
Connie Dufenbaugh: Yeah. Only during the daytime...
,.....
Berg: My thinking is that, if there's a lot of people using the trails and there's a lot of
people coming from Eden Prairie and there's a lot of people coming from Lake Susan, I don't
know that they're going to get to that spot that's separated by 650 feet and turn around and
go back. I think they're going to continue to use it anyway. It might be an inconvenience but
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
....",
I don't know, I guess I don't see in my outline of how being paved or unpaved is going to
change the amount of traffic on that trail. Because I think they're coming there anyway and I
think they're going from point A to point B but because they see it's not paved, I guess I'm
not sure that they're going to stop and say, oh I can't go here anymore and turn around and
go back.. I think you're going to see as much traffic whether it's paved or not. That'd be my
sense. I'd like to see us talk a little bit, if we could about, and I don't even know if this is
proper. Some sort of accommodation for the people who have got property along this trail
that are using it for trailers or the other things that were mentioned and see if we can't, if
there can't be some accommodation worked out for that if possible. At least talk about it. I
don't know if I'm in line with that or not.
Tim Herberg: Well right now it's for a service road and I'm assuming the Metropolitan
Sewer program will have to use it as a road...some kind of a barrier...
Berg: So you'd actually be driving on the paved road then? The proposed trail that we're
talking about putting in?
Tim Herberg: As opposed to that new gravel road. You're going to just pave on top of
what's already gravel?
Hoffman: A new trail bed would be installed there in some alignment. Either along side of
the road or as part of the road and they would use the trails to access back to the lift station
for public works. The parks maintenance crews would plow that in the winter with all the
rest of the trail system.
-'
Berg: I guess then I get concerned about how long the trail would last if we were getting a
lot of extra traffic.
Tim Herberg: Those who live there and the city and the Metropolitan Sewer...if we put up a
gate there to block off you know basically a lot of kids that go back there and drink and put
up a gate back there to block that off.
Berg: How many homes are we talking about?
Tim Herberg: Pardon?
Berg: How many homes are we talking about?
Tim Herberg: Well there's only two that rea11y...and the rest are basically up on a hill with a
lot of brush and so they'd be blocked off from this. That's the way you look at it. You
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,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
know basically...you'll see 2 or 3 homes along this stretch. The rest are up high.
Andrews: I think the paving issue and the access issue to me are separate. I guess I would
suggest that if access is to be desired in the future, that there should be some sort of a permit
or something obtained from the City Council because I think unless there's a formal
arrangement, what you're in danger of is an arbitrary change of what is allowed coming in
the future. Also it may enhance or detract from a possible sale or transfer of ownership of
your property so I would say that regardless of what we do, that something should be, pursued
in a more formal nature as to what the access should be for the property owners with the
road. I wanted to add my comments. I agree with what Fred said. That I don't see the
gravel being much of a deterrent. The fact, if anything I would think that slowing down
traffic that's not native to the area and have them walk by your yard, if anything would
present more of a danger to children and to property than somebody that's speeding by
without the desire to look at your yard and look at who might be there. I also think that as a
Park Board and as a City, we have a plan and a trail plan which has a consistent nature to it
As far as the quality of the trail. The use of the trail and I think we should stick with that. I,
myself live in a neighborhood that wants a trail access very desperately and we can't get one
and so to me, I wish I had your opportunity to be honest. I wish I could get on a trail.
",.....,
Connie Dufenbaugh: In the back of your home?
Andrews: We have property owners that are directly adjacent to this trail. I personally am
not but I have neighbors that are, and we would love to have it. We would love to be able to
get onto a trail and get somewhere. We're landlocked but it's a separate issue. So I think
that we should pave this and make this connection to Eden Prairie. Is anyone here willing to
propose or make a motion? Todd?
Hoffman: In addition to the Minutes, Virginia Hampton who is a resident in the Chanhassen
Estates called and wanted to relay to the commission that she thinks it's a great idea. And
Commissioner Huffman sent his notes. On item number 3, which this is, to use '94
contingency to finish the trail.
Andrews: Okay.
Lash: Ron can you, are you at liberty to be specific with names or numbers of people who
contacted you who were in favor of that?
I""'"
Roeser: Well no but this was, it was Joe Betz and his wife and they said they were sure that
their neighborhood was basically in favor of this thing. And you can call Joe back if you like
but he did call. They said that they couldn't be here today.
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
....."
Connie Dufenbaugh: There were a lot of people that I talked to that didn't even know it was
going in. And this letter was the fIrst letter that they had ever received about the trail. As
far as correspondence, I think that's been a little lax.
Lash: I think without the connection, you know with the Lake Susan connection that just got
put in and there was no reason to communicate anything up until that point because there
was.
Connie Dufenbaugh: There weren't any homes.
Lash: Well there was nothing to communicate because nothing was happening with the new
connection. The chunk coming from Lake Susan. This has been the next natural linkage
point and that's when the communication started and that's.
Hoffman: An article in this regard was put inoo.newsletter as well.
Andrews: And it's typical of whenever an area develops that's, or when there's a change to
be made, that's when communications are made to existing property owners. Other than that,
the access is through the Comp Plan which is available at City Hall or attending meetings and
fmding out what's coming but that is the way these things are communicated traditionally.
....",
Lash: If we were to be able to come up with some kind of a, well we have signage already.
There's already a lash law. I mean people aren't supposed to be coming down there with
their dogs running loose. I mean a lot of the things that you said that are problems, I think
that people are doing that they're not supposed to do. And all we can do is continue to try to
enforce the ordinance. We have signs. We have things in the paper but if you're concerned
with motorized vehicles or other types of things, usage that shouldn't be there, we certainly
can investigate some type of a gate system to try and stop that. And I think that will
alleviate that worry for you. I mean I don't even know if this is a possibility but say it was
paved and you two are the only two property owners that you said your yards are ata more
even plane with that. If we were to come up with some type of fence system or something
along there. Would that help you in your fears or is there nothing that can be done that will
help you in your fears?
Connie Dufenbaugh: Well if there were a fence put up, then that would ruin the serenity and
the natural environment back there. It's all marsh back there and the wildlife.
Lash: But if security.
16
..",.,.
,...,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Connie Dufenbaugh: If security was a problem then we would probably consider that or
move.
Tim Herberg: I guess I'd be more interested, you know make sure the hours are enforced as
far as...nobody back there after dark. If they're leaving at 10:00...
Lash: I also think Connie that you said you and your kids take the trail and walk over to
Lake Susan. I'd like to think that by far the majority of the people who use the trail are just
like you.
Connie Dufenbaugh: I really dislike going behind people's homes though. I think that's their
private area and it just ruins your privacy. I moved out here 11 years ago to get away from
the city to have privacy and not have people coming through our yard and everything and
now it's just totally just...It's all happened with progress.
Andrews: Can we have a motion?
Roeser: Yeah I move we complete the trail.
I"""'"
Andrews: Do you want to specify the time table?
Roeser: Well I'm not sure. Whenever it's feasible for the Park and Rec Department I
suppose.
Lash: Can I ask one quick question fIrst before we go forward? Just for clarification. Did
the other link just get completed so would this be the first summer that it's a thru shot? Even
though if it stayed gravel, is it the frrst year that it would be a thru shot?
Hoffman: To Eden Prairie?
Lash: Yes.
Hoffman: Yeah. It was just completed last fall...
Andrews: Ron, do you want to restate that please?
Roeser: Well I just move that we complete the trail using the contingency fund this summer
or as soon as possible. Or we recommend it. We certainly can't decide.
,..,
Andrews: Is there a second to that?
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
...."
Berg: I'll second.
Andrews: Any further discussion?
Berg: Do we need to discuss whether or not we're looking at using the contingency fund or
allocating it for 1995?
Andrews: Ron's motion was to do it as soon as possible with contingency money. That to
me implies this summer. Is that acceptable?
Lash: Do we have enough money in the contingency fund?
Hoffman: There's $10,000.00 and it's at your discretion to spend it as you like.
Andrews: Hearing no further discussion I'll call the question.
Roeser moved, Berg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission allocate
$6,500.00 out of the 1994 contingency dollars to facilitate the completion of an 8 foot
wide asphalt trail for the Rice Marsh Lake trail extension to Eden Prairie. All voted in
favor ,except Jan Lash who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1. ...".,
Andrews: This will come up again at the City Council so this is not a binding decision. And
Todd, they will again, the neighbors will be notified prior to that meeting as well?
Hoffman: Again, this is not, the allocation of those funds has been made as a contingency...
Andrews: So this will not come to the City Council then? Okay. If this were an issue that
you wish to pursue, you should approach the City Council then at the next available agenda.
They also have a Visitor Presentation. That might give you another opportunity to seek
action, okay.
Lash: Todd, should Connie take the petition or will that be provided if the Council...
Hoffman: They will be provided the record of this discussion...
Andrews: We thank you for coming and we do understand what your concerns were.
18
...,;"
I""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. CONCEYf PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT
TO REZONE 39 ACRES FROM A2. AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO PUD FOR S6
SINGLE FAMILY LOTS LOCATED SOUTH OF ffiGHWAY S. EAST OF
TIMBERWOOD ESTATES. HERITAGE DEVELOPMENT.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Jeannene Krone
Steve Schwanke
Richard Frasch
David Gestach
Tahir Khan
Mark Foster
RLK Associates
RLK Associates, 922 Mainstreet
8000 Acorn Lane
800 1 Acorn Lane
2040 Renaissance Court
8020 Acorn Lane
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
.""
Jeannene Krone: I had two requests from John Dobbs who is of Heritage Development and
the fIrst is that the trail easement that you are looking at would be a 30 foot easement.
Hoffman: Would you please introduce yourself.
Jeannene Krone: My name's Jeannene Krone from RLK. I'm landscape architect. So
Heritage requests that they be granted a 20 foot easement along the wetland instead of the 30
foot to provide the trail. And there were some changes. We discussed them with the
Planning Commission that where we originally wanted the pond is a wetland and they will
need to be doing some ponding outside this wetland to the east. So this would be a storm
water pond around here and I drew a quick section that shows right through here that the
back of the lots would come down. There'd be a narrow pond then I had a 20 foot trail
bench and then the wetlands start and eventually go to the creek. And now they're doing a
20 foot easement instead of a 30 foot. John Dobbs wanted to say that he would be willing to
put in the trail as requested as long as he was fairly compensated...
Andrews: Do you know what the average lot size is you're proposing here?
Jeannene Krone: The average lot size is 20,000 square feet. That includes property, this part
of the wetland.
,....,
Andrews: The outlots?
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
..",tIJfI
Jeannene Krone: The outlots. And other than that, there's still a 15,000 square foot
minimum beyond the wetland.
Manders: The trail you're talking would be on the bottom side of the water retention?
Jeannene Krone: It would be, no. It would be between this pond and the wetland.
Manders: Right.
Jeannene Krone: So it would, it's proposed to come up this part of the creek but it can't go
up here because of the wetland. So it'd be between the pond and wetland here and stay just
outside the wetland until it gets back to the creek. And the main reason for the 20 foot
easement is there were some lots that wouldn't work if it had to be a 30 foot trail.
Andrews: Todd, usually we are looking at 20 foot easements. Why were we looking at the
extra 10 feet?
Hoffman: In conversation with Diane Desotelle and other members of the planning and
engineering staff, there's a requirement for a 20 foot buffer inbetween that wetland the
. developed property and that buffer is to allow the natural vegetation to collect sedimentation... ..."",
etc, etc before they drain into the wetland. So if we...
Manders: What constitutes the definition of that wetland? Is it just elevation or is it just.
Hoffman: It's a mapped wetland. The elevation and the aerial underneath that is also it's an
elevation.
Jeannene Krone: And we will be having the wetland staked as soon as the ground thaws, and
delineated...were taken from maps from aerial photos where the wetlands are.
Lash: When you're saying some of the lots won't work with the 30 foot easement, are you
saying they're too small?
Jeannene Krone: Yeah, they'll be too small.
Berg: What's too small?
Jeannene Krone: Less than 11,000 square feet in a PUD.
Lash: Yeah, that's too small.
20
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,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Jeannene Krone: And then it's too narrow. Too narrow for the house and stuff.
Manders: That's assuming that the current road structure is approved or is that finalized?
Jeannene Krone: That's assuming the road structure is approved.
Lash: This is all still under the conceptual plan. So if we stick with the 30 feet, the plan can
be redone so it would be workable. Could it not?
Jeannene Krone: Sure...
Andrews: Is there anyone else here from the audience that has any questions or comments
about this proposal? If so, please state your name and address please?
Richard Frasch: Okay. Do I have to stand up or can I sit down here?
Andrews: If you could approach the podium.
,..... Hoffman: You're on record here.
Richard Frasch: Big audience here. My name is Richard Frasch. I'm at 8000 Acorn Lane in
Timberwood. From my perspective, just so I understand where we're talking about here. Is
this Timberwood right here?
Jeannene Krone: Right. At the bottom.
Richard Frasch: Okay, and then this road here, is that.
Jeannene Krone: That's the proposed frontage road.
Richard Frasch: Okay, so that would be connecting toTimberwood?
Jeannene Krone: No. It would go along with the school opening. It would be just north of
Timberwood.
Richard Frasch: Right at the north of Timberwood.
Hoffman: This is north. This is Acorn. This is north. This would be the new frontage road.
The new school, park site and then Highway 5 runs vertically here.
,....,
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
--'
Richard Frasch: And these houses here, what type of price range will they be?
Jeannene Krone: ...$230,000.00?
Roeser: How much?
Jeannene Krone: $230,000.00 is what they're going for.
Lash: On 11 ,000 square foot lot?
Hoffman: I had the opportunity to hold a phone conversation with John Dobbs this morning.
We talked about the 30 foot easement. We also talked about the city's desire to maintain, to
develop a very comprehensive and attractive park system along that corridor...understand at a
staff level the difficulty of double fronting that piece of property so we do not want to hinder
that process any further so we will allow that easement to go through...buffer setback. In
doing so if there's some configuration...
Andrews: I guess I just need you to clarify what you just said Todd. Are you saying that we
as a park board cannot accept this drawing because it doesn't meet current city ordinance?
~
Hoffman: It's not an...
Andrews: We're not accepting it anyway as a body.
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: But it's not acceptable as presently drawn.
Hoffman: Correct. As proposed.
Andrews: And so what the applicant is looking for is the Park Board to state that we would
not be opposed to a variance to that ordinance by allowing a 20 foot instead of a 30 foot
easement. Is that what you're saying that we would have to do here?
Hoffman: The Park and Recreation Commission would be at liberty to offer that opinion but
again, the ordinance...
Roeser: So we really can't change that easement anyway.
22
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""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Andrews: I'll have to say personally as a Park Board member here that I cannot support
reducing that easement. I think that this particular corridor is absolutely critical to the city
and it's future beauty and I just feel that we can't give an inch here. I just don't think we
should. I feel that the houses in these price ranges, you know a few lots may be sacrificed
but I just don't think that we should be asking for anything less than top quality. Here we
have one of our most valuable pieces of property and it's a PUD coming in asking for lot
sizes that are actually below standard if they were not under PUD and I just don't think we
should support anything but the type of quality that our city should demand. That's where I
stand.
Roeser: I agree.
Lash: I agree.
Berg: Absolutely.
Manders: The ordinance was put in place for a reason. To keep the fertilizers out and all of
those things so I agree.
,.,...
Andrews: Yeah. Do you need a motion here Todd or, I mean I think you're getting some
feedback right there where we're standing, which is that we're not supportive of any change
in that setback.
Hoffman: If you're prepared to make a motion, the motion outlined in the...
Andrews: Well I move that we would, that the Park Board resolutely is in favor of
maintaining the 30 foot easement necessary for the trail and the proper amount of distance for
protecting the creek. And therefore would ask that the applicant resubmit a plan that would
meet that requirement.
Lash: Second.
Andrews: Any discussion?
Andrews moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
that the applicant maintain the 30 foot easement necessary for the trail and to resubmit
a plan that would meet that requirement. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
,....
Hoffman: ...you need to compensate the applicant or the developer for the cost...in
23
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
developing that trail and that's always been the city's policy...
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. CONCEPTUAL PLANNED UNIT
DEVELOPMENT TO REZONE 82.6 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED A2.
AGRICULTURAL EST ATE TO PUD; INCLUDING 19.3 ACRES FOR
OFFICEIWAREHOUSE. 52.9 ACRES FOR MULTI-FAMILY. 3.4 ACRES FOR
PONDING AREA. AND 7 ACRES FOR ROAD RIGHT-OF-WAY. LOCATED SOUTH
OF HIGHWAY 5. WEST OF AUDUBON ROAD. AND ABU'ITING THE NEW
CHANHASSEN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL SITE/RECREATION CENTER AND PARK
SITE; CHANHASSEN CORPORATE CENTRE. HIGHWAY 5 PARTNERSHIP. RYAN
COMPANIES. HERITAGE DEVELOPMENT. BOISCLAIR CORPORATION AND
RLK ASSOCIATES.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Steve Schwanke: Members of the commission, thank you Todd. My name is Steve
Schwanke with RLK Associates and I've been working on this particular project here for
probably the last 6 to 7 months. Jeannene Krone who was here just a few minutes ago was
assisting with some specific design of some of those particular areas. As Mr. Hoffman has
mentioned, we view this very much as a concept stage., A lot of the designs that we have
submitted, we have 5 plan sheets as part of this. A lot of the design work that we've put
together for that really is, in terms of a concept, we want to really make sure that we begin to
identify some specific land uses and some specific densities that will be allowed for the
access points. And actually when we begun with all of this, probably 5 or 6 months ago, it's
been in a very fundamental point. We began working with the city and the city's consultants
actually 5 or 6 months ago working with design and some of the major infrastructures in this
area here. Barton.,.Aschman has been very cooperative as well as the engineering department
and the planning departments and of course the parks and recreation department in assisting
us in designing a lot of the infrastructure for this particular area here so when the feasibility
study for example for the east/west collector road came out, it was principally based on the
design that we had created for that in a way that we were able to maximize the land uses
both to the north and to the south as well as being able to...corridor here that Todd was
talking about. The east/west corridor as it snakes up from the north here and goes west a
little bit and then goes up to the north again. So a lot of that work we actually have been
doing in September and October. We've also been working in this particular area here in
conjunction with the School District and their consultants HGA. As well as the city's
consultant Bonestroo who's been doing some of the storm water planning for this particular
area here...in conversations with the school and the city for the design of this pond area here
as well as just the size of it and you know what areas should be brought into it and things of
that nature. We've actually been involved in this project for some time working with the city
24
...."
.....",
-'
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
in designing the infrastructure and some of the more critical issues such as the ponding area
here. We also have been working, as I mentioned with Todd and his people particularly
related to the Bluff Creek corridor because as the city, we actually view this as a very
important amenity. We totally agree with the comments of the commission here just a few
minutes ago that they're a critical corridor. It's a corridor that we're committed to protecting
and actually it's an amenity that we want to highlight in this particular development. To that
end we then participated with the city in their efforts to obtain an LMCR grant for this
corridor that Todd eluded to for a minutes ago and we were at the meeting related to that
about a week ago and we made commitments to assist in obtaining that grant. As well as just
working here to make the, establish the corridor for this particular part of the creek yard. Let
me just walk through then, with that as some introductory comments, let me just walk
through the development very quickly. This initially started out as a much different
development. You saw this about a year ago. You might be wondering gosh, this looks a
little familiar but it isn't quite the same that I saw about a year ago. This at one time
included the entire school area here and included the Heritage Development area that was just
here a few minutes ago that was shown as single family. As you can see of course the school
area here had been sold to the school district. No longer is part of this development
specifically. As we move to the east, this is the piece of property that the Boisclair
r- Corporation is currently working on. It is shown as a multi-family land use. As you go
further to the east, this is the property held by Ryan Construction Company shown as an
office warehouse land use. In conversations with the city planning department and
engineering department, it was felt that this was an appropriate transition moving away from
the school area here and moving towards this as we get a little bit closer to the McGlynn
property over here and of course their plan uses more the office warehouse type of use. So
we've shown, we've planned in your multi-family moving to a smaller office warehouse
piece. As you recall, this proposal about a year, year and a half ago, this whole area here
was commercial industrial. So this part of the land use has changed substantially. Of course
we have an east/west collector road through here. We've shown ponding areas in this area
here. Of course again we're in conversations with the city's engineering department to
exactly design and the NURP standards and exactly the size of those areas and we just show
that conceptually at the moment. And then as we move further to the south and to the east,
this area in here is shown as multi-family. Again, as an appropriate transition moving leavingifrom the Timberwood area to the single family area here and multi family area here. Then of
course we move towards the commercial-industrial area of the McGlynn property. I think
with that in mind, I'm available for questions obviously. You may have Jeannene come up
here a couple of times again if there are any specific design related issues.
Lash: I have a real basic question. I'm not real good at interpreting these plans. On the site
that's abutting the school property.
,....
25
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
~
Steve Schwanke: The multi family here?
Lash: Yeah. There's, I'm looking at the drawing that has all the little.
Steve Schwanke: You're on the specific site?
Lash: Yeah.
Steve Schwanke: Could you bring that one up Jeannene so we can put it.
Lash: There's just some kind of funny shaped things and I'm not sure what they are.
They're the bigger kind of funny shaped things in the middle and then the really funny
shaped things. Are those apartment buildings?...
Steve Schwanke: We'll bring that sheet up and find out what the funny shaped things are.
There's two types of...there are two types of multi family uses that are, there is a townhouse
type of unit that will be owner occupied. I don't recall the, boy that didn't turn out too well
did it...These funny shaped things? Okay. That's the townhouse type of units. Those are
going to be owner occupied. I don't recall the approximate value of them but those are more
of a townhouse owner occupied type of unit and then over in this area here you see an .....",
apartment building and this is a 3 story apartment building that would be of course rented.
Lash: So are these like six-plexes, most of them?
Jeannene Krone: 6 or 8.
Steve Schwanke: 6 to 8.
Lash: Okay. And then almost in the middle of it there are these, with all the six-plexes
around, there are those kind of two funny shaped things.
Steve Schwanke: Yeah, why don't you show me which ones you're looking at...that funny
shaped area is...again we want to emphasize this is concept and what we're attempting to
show there is, there is going to be some open space. Admittedly there's not going to be a lot
and given this design.. that there's going to be some open areas.
Andrews: I just want to make a comment. I was on that Highway 5 group, that these land
uses are very consistent with what we wanted to see there. Yeah, it's not a shock to see this.
We all would like to see rolling plains and animals running free but we also realize we have
to provide residences and places for people to work too so.
....""
26
,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Roeser: Is it pretty dense though? I mean it seems to me there's an awful lot of people
living in that whole area.
Steve Schwanke: Well in this, if you go back again to the Boisclair area here. The overall
density, this is approximately 26 acres, plus or minus. And we're showing the density in
there of 11.3 units per acre so again for a multi-family area, we feel it's an appropriate
density. It's an appropriate land use given what we have to the north. And again I want to
emphasize and of course if I'm misrepresenting Trunk Highway 5 corridor study group,
please help me out. Again, we need to, in Audubon what we're planning for up here is in
essence a major roadway. And we have, it will end up being a four lane divided roadway
and we're designing this area in a way that it will last and actually protects and buffers this
area here from the corridor area here. But again for us to serve as an appropriate buffer to
the south, and of course for the property owners to maximize then the value of the property
without commercial uses. Again, this would be a very appropriate commercial piece and
actually sold as a commercial piece and to be consistent with the Trunk Highway 5 corridor
group, the development team sought out of the multi-family user as a way to maximize the
value of the property and those types of densities that would be required. Again we need to
realize, this is probably a piece that, at least from the planning department's point of view,
If!""" would probably be a little more appropriate for commercial industrial warehouse and to be
consistent with the Trunk Highway 5 corridor study, we've attempted to show it as multi-
family.
Andrews: We had hoped for a transition from the school going east from a dense to a, dense
residential to a commercial use so it's consistent.
Steve Schwanke: Yeah, very good. Again, a proposal that we had brought up that we
frankly we started with the Planning Commission, or excuse me. The planning department
about was this area as an office commercial use.
Roeser: That's what I always pictured it as.
Steve Schwanke: And we were informed by the planning department that it was really the
strong belief of the Trunk Highway 5 corridor study group that this should serve as a
transition area moving away from the school area. As a way to protect the school area from
this commercial, industrial, office uses and by doing that they were proposing a high density
multi family. And so to accommodate that, the development team sought...
"
Andrews: One of my concerns is that from the creek itself, you know from a person walking
the trails and down in the creek and trying to enjoy that. That's a tremendous asset that we
all have here in the city. I guess I'd appreciate if the developer would do what they could to
27
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
...,.,
place buildings that aren't the typical gray, tip up concrete monoliths for somebody to view
as they're walking through this nature area. I would hope that you could be creative and
perhaps have some balconies or decking or something that would be a little more appropriate
I think on that site. I realize that we don't have a lot of control over that but I think it would
be, first of all it'd make your property, those buildings more desirable but I think it'd also be
appreciated by those people using the creek. I also have some concerns about, and I'm sure
you're dealing with this through other bodies about the ponding you mentioned was right near
where the creek is currently running. I guess I'm curious as to how you're going to pond
water where the creek is running free. That's just a concern of mine that we don't impact
what is the natural flowage of the creek and alter the creek. The route of the creek and what
wildlife may currently be there. So again I'm sure there are other bodies that are watching
that. The Planning Commission I'm sure is one of them and some others so. My main
concern is where transitions of views and that this be treated really as one of the, our
diamonds of Chanhassen in that the developer be sensitive to what views that a person
walking in the corridor may experience as they come through there. That's it for me.
Manders: I have a couple questions. One is I think an obvious one but I'll ask it anyway.
The multi family is delineated on both sides by the creek. Is that correct?
Steve Schwanke: You mean these two areas here?
-"
Manders: No. From the west and the east. Those two curved lines are the east branch and
the west branch of that creek?
Steve Schwanke: Oh the creek.
Manders: Yeah.
Steve. Schwanke: Yes. Approximately.
Manders: So the idea is to have that multi family inbetween that creek area?
Steve Schwanke: In fact that's the results.
Manders: Okay, right. And then elaborating on the creek. Is there anything in place thus far
in terms of that trail? As far as specifics about it? That has yet to be defined?
Hoffman: Construction standards?
Manders: Yeah. There really isn't anything talked aboufas far as where the trail itself, as
28
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
you pointed out, is going to be on the west side of the creek and then go up the east branch
up to the road and then follow the road over to the west branch and up? None of the rest of
that creek would be developed for trail purposes then? Would that be correct?
Hoffman: Correct. The opposite side, on the east side. The reason that they wanted these to
follow the west side. Down in this area there's a large wetland protruding which comes out.
It's difficult to bump around. To get all the way back west to the under pass. How the trails
will line up in this location and what side they will be on or on both sides, will determine if
there's a natural crossing point in which there may be there with some of the activity through
the culverts and the fields...crossing and those type of things. I know there's one up in this
location. But obviously we want people that would propose to be residing in this location to
be able to access the corridor and then come down onto the street plan and then continue
down. The same thing with these different folks. We would want them to be able to access
inward. Not going out on a street plan necessarily. To access inward onto the creek corridor
and then to head up on down.
Andrews: That brings up a point too.
,...., Manders: Which gets to my other or last question. Going to the, which way. This would be
south of the road. You're going to be crossing the creek? Is there some type of bridge?
Hoffman: I think bridges which will need to be placed in a couple of locations. At least
potentially right here and we either have to come out on the street plan and then go back
down but more likely it will be a bridge at this location and then you will come underneath
here and it will come up probably on the same side that we come underneath but we will not
have to have a bridge here. This location would need a bridge and potentially a culvert and
the same over there or down in this location where we hit the southern, or the other branch
which comes off into here...
Andrews: I just thought of one point when Jim was talking and that would be, in particular
on the dense townhome and apartment part of the project. That the developer consider having
trail, private trail easements feed into the trail that's proposed to run with the access
boulevard so that it's not strictly walk the street to get to the trail system. There would be
potential paths through the complex itself to link some of those homes because you're going
to have tons of people on there and it's probably going to, they're probably going to take the
path of least resistance, which is through the property anyway. Why don't we provide a few
paths that would then link up to the access boulevard trail system.
,....
Lash: Does anybody have any feeling about, I'm almost speechless over the large amounts of
grass. I just can't get over that but with the school site there, yeah we have ball fields and
29
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
...."I
we're going to have playground but I look at the multi family thing on the south side of the
frontage road and not as easily, the school site will not be as easy to access from that area
and do we want to look at at least having them provide some spots within each of these
places where they can have at least a totlot type...
Andrews: Especially in that dense part of the development Again you're going to have
hundreds of.
Lash: When you've got 300 homes in one and 172 in the second, that's.
Manders: I think that's something that's stated in the suggestion that that would be
encouraged. I don't know if we can recommend or require it. I guess we can recommend it
but.
Andrews: Well this is a PUD isn't it? Or will be a PUD.
Steve Schwanke: This is being submitted to the city as a planned unit development, that's
correct.
Andrews: Well we could request that that be added as a condition of approval.
...",.
Lash: Well I'm throwing that out as an idea. I'm looking at it as something that I think
would be beneficial.
Andrews: Well you know it's going to be needed.
Steve Schwanke: Let me, if I could say. I think it's an item that this property area here
is...will be developed by Heritage Development Company and in my conversations with them,
they recognize as well it's a large piece of property and it's being planned as multi-family
density and again, because of the transition...this industrial area here and they recognize that
some type of park facilities would have to be provided in that area. So I think in conjunction
with Mr. Hoffman...taking a look at what might be...
Andrews: Are we looking for motions here or just feedback?
Hoffman: At your discretion. Again.
Andrews: I guess I feel that we're at more of a feedback level here than really a formal
acceptance or denial of the project. I think it's going to be back at least one more time
before it goes to digging. Is there any other comments that anybody else would like to add?
30
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Does the applicant require any more information from us?
Steve Schwanke: No. Actually I just want to say thank you. This is very helpful for us to
get a sense of how the Park Commission views this. We're going to be, as you can imagine,
any number of iterations on this entire project so we appreciate that and look forward to
being before you again. I did just want to mention very quickly. This was submitted in time
to be before the Planning Commission on April 6th. But that agenda's pretty full so we're
going to be there probably on the 20th. So we look forward to working with you on this and
appreciate your time.
Andrews: Thank you. Oh pardon me. Is there anybody from the audience that wishes to
make any comments about this? Okay, please. We forgot to ask about that. I apologize for
that.
Mark Foster: I'm Mark Foster. I live at 8020 Acorn Lane in Timberwood. I'm just kind of
wondering what the, my lot, if I can just point it out, is here. I was noticing the markings on
it...and one of my concerns was the, with the ponding and the drainage...the back of my lot
there... '
,....
Jeannene Krone:...what they plan to do is have separate ponds that will feed into the
channel...
Andrews: I believe if there were to be any placement of ponding water on anybody's
property, it'd have to purchased or compensated so that could not occur.
Steve Schwanke: Actually that pond, as Jeannene mentioned is currently being designed in
conjunction with planning and natural resources in the engineering department here. The
intent or the thought at the moment is, and again this is just in the design stage. We're still
in conversations with...the size and the depth and all that. The intent thought is to design it
in a manner that the pond actually is appearing as a natural wetland. So depending upon how
one feels about wetlands. Some people like them. Some people don't. This at least has to
be designed, or at least that's the intent right now to be using natural vegetation. The slopes
being in a way that the natural vegetation is able to grow and be sustained in that area rather
than steep walls, very deep ponds, and things of that nature. That's the intent at the moment.
Andrews: You're going to be required to remove sediment anyway before that water can be
discharged into the creek anyway, I would assume.
"...
Steve Schwanke: Yes. That is one of the functions obviously of the pond there. Before it
discharges into...
31
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
.....",
Mark Foster: ...one thing I don't want to see is any rental units, either apartment or
townhouse or whatever...thanks.
Andrews: Thank you.
Tahir Khan: My name is Tahir Khan and I live on Renaissance Court. Just a couple
comments about the proposed development I've got a little concern when I see 4 or 5 homes
abutting up against one house and it seems in general with the...and it seems that there is...of
the homes along here seems to be very high. Even though the average may come out to be
acceptable so hopefully the developers will give some attention to those little details. Also
for drainage purposes, there's several homes along this line that are presently draining into
the cornfield which has not shown up on these aerial photographs. And I'm also hoping that
those issues can be looked at in some detail because not all the water is going towards the
main creek. One that runs through here and some of it is going right across, there's a
depression right about here. And some of the water from these two properties is sort of
linked to the creek down here. It goes right across what was going to become the future
backyards of some homes...is I'm hoping that it's not going to...but otherwise the
development does show some merit in terms of trying to get, make a transition between the
larger lots and the high density but I think there does need to be some work done yet.
Especially in this area and all the straight line of homes butting up against here which seems .....,i
to be awfully dense. Thanks.
Andrews: I would encourage you to attend the Planning Commission and Council meetings
because that's where those issues will be specifically addressed. Any other comments?
Lash: Given that, I know that you people were here for the item before where we're trying to
extend the trail. I hope that when these lots are coming in and people are coming to look,
that it's communicated clearly to people who are potential home site owners along here that
there will be some type of trail going behind their home so they won't have a.
Roeser: Yes, please tell them.
Audience: Most people like them.
Lash: Well you know, some people do and some people don't. We get to hear from those
who don't.
Andrews: I think what people don't like is change. If it wasn't there when they bought it,
they don't necessarily want it. If they come in as a new property owner and they hear about
it, they usually are in favor of seeing it right away so. I guess I would encourage you to
32
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
have it built before the first structure ever went in. Any other comments on this project?
Lash: I have a question for the gentleman who lives on Acorn. I see Outlot C in
Timberwood and I've forgotten what...there.
Hoffman: It's a depression. Woods.
Lash: Is it our's?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: It's not city owned? Is it heavily wooded or is.
Hoffman: Partially wooded ravine along there. As far as I recall, it's in the Timberwood
Association.
Lash: Okay. I was just curious. Thank you.
,.... Andrews: Alright, thank you. I hope you've received from us what you need to move ahead.
Steve Schwanke: Very good, thank you.
Andrews: Jan, if you could take item 6.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL: PRELIMINARY AND FINAL PLAT TO
REPLAT LOT 1. BLOCK 1. AND OUTLOT B. PARK ONE 2ND ADDITION INTO
LOTS 1. 2 AND 3. PARK ONE TIllRD ADDITION. A SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A
54.720 SQ. FT. WAREHOUSE EXPANSION FOR THE PRESS AND A 10.315 SQ. FT.
KINDERCARE FACILITY; AND A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A
LICENSED DAY CARE CENTER IN AN lOP. INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK
LOCATED AT THE NORTHWEST QUADRANT OF DELL ROAD AND STATE
HIGHWAY 5. MARCUS CORPORATION AND RLK ASSOCIATES.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report and stated that the applicant was not present per his
conversation with the applicant that this item was straight forward.
Andrews: Any discussion? If not a motion would be appreciated. Nobody wants to talk
about it?
Roeser: I move.
,.....
33
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
,..."I
Andrews: Ron has moved that we accept the staff recommendation. Is there a second to
that?
Meger: I'll second.
Roeser moved, Meger seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
the City Council accept full park and trail dedication fees for the expansion of Lot 1 and
Lots 2 and 3, Block 1, Park One Third Addition in lieu of parkland dedication and/or
trail construction. One third of the park and trail cash contribution shall be paid
contemporaneously with the city's approval of the subdivision. The balance, calculated
as follows, shall be paid at the time building permits are issued. The rate in effect for
commercial/industrial property when a building permit is issued minus the amount
previously paid. Current commercial/industrial park and trail fee rates are $4,500.00
per acre and $1,500.00 per acre, respectively. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
PROGRAM REPORTS:
- WINTER PROGRAM REVIEW
- FEBRUARY FESTIVAL FUN SKI EVALUATION
. - TEEN NIGHT OUT EVALUATION
- MIDDLE SCHOOL SKI TRIP EVALUATION
,..."I
Lemme:. ...evaluation of the winter programs and the attendance on programs...so unless you
have any questions, this is informational.
Andrews: I have two comments. One is, I was at the Chan Chamber luncheon today.
Comments there were very, very, very positive about the February Festival. They're very
anxious to participate again. In fact they're expecting that to happen so I mean line them up
now. And then also I spoke with Principal Duane Udsten of Minnetonka Middle School West
about trying to coordinate more with that school. With Chan activities being that that is a
school that many Chanhassen students do attend and he's very much looking forward to that
so we can work on that. Any other comments on item 7? Let's move on.
Lemme: Item 7(b) is also...if you have any additional comments...that can be directed
towards the fun ski. Appreciate any of those.
Roeser: I was thinking perhaps we should discourage less than 10 years old because they get
tired about halfway through and they want to go home and you can't go home. Those kids
really don't need exercise.
34
.....,I
.,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Lemme: That was one of the items. I forgot to put that on there...group that got together on
this meeting.
Roeser: Or even what we talked about. Even maybe having a little area where they could
ski where their parents are doing it or something like that. That's maybe making things
complicated but.
Lemme: That's still a possibility but we are going to put an age on that or discourage those
who are below a certain age.
Andrews: Item 7(c).
Lemme: ....evaluation of the final teen night out numbers and fees that were brought in. If
you have any questions, I can try to answer those...suggestions, we'll add those to the list.
Hoffman: Commissioner Lash...address your concerns in this regard?
Lash: I believe you addressed my concerns. Well in the letter.
~
Lemme: Any questions on that?
Andrews: No.
Berg: Point (d), I was wondering why you were eliminating the trip to Welch Village. Just
curious.
Lemme: Jerry encountered several problems with getting the kids in and out as far as rental
equipment. Apparently they had to stand in line for over an hour and...new computer system
did not seem to be very organized and it was quite frustrating for a lot of the children in the
group. They didn't get as much time to ski as they thought and...
Andrews: It's a pretty long drive too so.
Lemme: And one of the suggestions was to offer a trip to Spirit Mountain and that would be
to take a Coach bus and would go all day. There's been quite a few people who have
suggested we make a long trek, but if we do that, we have to get an extra bus probably and.
Andrews: Leave early and get home late.
Lemme: Make it an early morning start and get back later at night.
,...,
35
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
....,;I
Andrews: I guess that might be another one to look at making sure we have an appropriate
minimum age for that one.
Manders: These trips are pretty much self supporting? Am I understanding that?
Lemme: Yes they are normally. This year they went a little bit into the negative because of
the fIrst two trips. We just did not have the kids because of the snow conditions. The last
trip just went, we had a very full bus and normally every busload of all these trips is really
full. I think it's really good attendance. And one of them I think had to cancel due to the
weather and then re-schedule and we lost part of the group.
Lash: That was during the cold weather?
Lemme: Yeah.
Hoffman: A couple of them...
Lemme: Any other questions on those?
,ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
.......",
A. REVIEW CARVER BEACH PARK PLAY STRUCTURE "BALLOTS".
Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Andrews, members of the Commission. This item is
approximately 6 months old now. We began to review it last September. We tabled action at
that time pending kind of an informal study...out to the neighborhood. That was mailed in
November of last year. Those ballots were received, a majority of them just before or after
Christmas and now is the time to review those...appropriate equipment for the installation
season. Last year the park and the neighborhood...but the old equipment was removed and
new equipment was not installed. We need to consider... Some clarifIcations. What was
distributed to the neighborhood is not exactly how the commission discussed after the meeting
and the reason for that was because of the constraints at the site. But I believe it was...bigger
to the play structure regarding the proposed. It simply cannot take place under the new...
guidelines...play structure areas, the pea graveL.in order to have it comply. So what we came
up with is that we could have one of the other, some sort of small play structure as reviewed
or a swing only. Even trying to fit a swing and digger animals does not work on the site that
we have. It's too constraining. So the survey was amended to read, either install a platform
structure and then choose one...or install a two place swing set and one would be the belt and
the other would be the bucket So you have the total tally as it was sent back to the city.
Pretty good response rate really. 58 out 172. A lot of additional comments on there. Thanks
36
...."
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
for the opportunity to discuss this or cast our vote in this regard, etc, etc. With that, the
commission needs to take some action with regards so we can get on with the installation.
Andrews: Alrighty. It looks as though there's a fairly clear majority preference for Structure
B. Could you give us a better description what exactly the difference is between these two?
It looks to me, was the picture as shown, the one that was used for item A?
Hoffman: Correct. The picture, our item A was the picture which shows...under review
again tonight. That picture was more difficult to read than the other one from Earl F.
Anderson. In fact I marked A and...
Andrews: So B is Anderson then?
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: Fred, why don't we start at your end and see if we can get this resolved here.
Take any comments, questions.
,.... Berg: I don't see an awful lot to discuss. The balloting is clear. If we can't go with the
swing, I guess things have changed since I was a kid.
Andrews: Alright. Jim.
Manders: Yeah. I guess my main question would be the pricing difference between the two.
If there is any.
Hoffman: They were very similar. Both within the amount that is budgeted.
Manders: Okay.
Roeser: Well you're going to make the least people, number of people angry so take the 28
votes and go with it.
Andrews: I agree. I also think that Anderson has proven to be the best vendor for us as far
as dependability so that would be my feeling. Jan? Jane? Okay. Let's have a motion.
Berg: Move we accept Structure B.
Andrews: Is there a second?
,....
37
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
...."
Manders: Second.
Berg moved, Manders seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission select
Platform Structure B for the Carver Beach Park play structure. All voted in favor and
the motion carried unanimously.
APPROVAL OF 4TH OF JULY BAND CONTRACT. THE m TOPS.
Lemme: Thank you Chairman and commissioners. Attached you see the contract for this
year's Hi Tops performance at the 4th of July weekend. The contract, if you notice is for
$1,400.00. We did change the date from what we had initially thought we would have for the
4th of July weekend so this year it will be on Saturday night, July 2nd from 7:30 to 11:30
p.m with the rain out date being Sunday, July 3rd. The same time, from 7:30 to 11:30 p.rn.
And staff's recommendations is that you approve this contract for the Hi Tops...
Andrews: Is there any discussion?
Manders: I just had two questions. One was, what was last year's contract amount? Was it
the same amount?
Lemme: I believe it was the same.
~
Manders: Was it? And then two, is the timeframe, is the 7:30 to 11:30 similar to what we
had last year because I was there last year and it seemed like it dwindled towards the end.
A lot of people left so is this earlier?
Lemme: It's a half hour earlier.
Manders: Okay, that's what I was thinking. That it was an 8:00 start.
Lemme: Last year it went 8:00 to midnight
Berg: Do they get an hour break? A total hour break inbetween for all of this? Because
that's 4 hours of time and they're contracted for 3.
Hoffman: Yep, they take breaks.
Roeser: They take like 20 minutes every so often.
Berg: Every hour?
38
...",/
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Roeser: Something like that. They're artists.
Berg: That's better than teaching. I'll have to look into this gig too. It could be a good
summer job.
Lemme: This is really, I believe this is the fee that they've been charging us for a number of
years.
Lash: I'm really surprised that they were willing to book Saturday night because we tried
that before and they never wanted to commit to Saturday night with the chance that they'd be
rained out and then they're sitting on a Saturday night without a gig.
Hoffman: They're pretty committed to Chanhassen.
Andrews: They're popular. Can we get a motion to approve the contract?
Lash: I move that we approve the contract.
,.... Berg: Second.
Lash moved, Berg seconded to approve the contract with the Hi. Tops to perform at the
4th of July celebration in the amount of $1,400.00. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
C. EASTER EGG CANDY HUNT.
\
Lemme: Thank you again Chairman and commissioners. Attached you will fmd the Easter
Egg Candy Hunt flyer and coloring contest...this year. The Easter Egg Candy Hunt and
celebration will take place on Saturday, April 2nd at 9:00 a.m. at the Elementary School. The
flyers have been distributed. Since the time of this memo I have, today we received, we're
starting to receive the coloring contest entries and a lot of calls on the Easter Egg hunt.
We'll be receiving help from the Honor Society again and confirmation...and Boy Scouts I
believe.
Hoffman: And as Jerry has indicated, if any Park commissioners wish to volunteer, that I can
take their names down...
Lash: I went last year and there really wasn't very much for me to do.
,....
Hoffman: No, it's more of a PR...and judging.
39
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
-'
Lemme: Judging of the coloring contest.
Lash: I was very excited to see the little note on here. Pictures may not be turned into any
of the area schools. I want you to know to date I've only gotten one. If you need a judge,
call and I'll got but if you don't, I mean if you've got the people who want to do it, that's
fme with me too.
Lemme: I don't believe we need judges...would anyone else be interested?
Lash: That's my son's birthday too so.
Andrews: I have one question. How and where were the flyers distributed?
Lemme: They were distributed into the schools and there was a note that we would have
them at City Hall available and notice made in the newsletter also. People can get those if
they'd like.
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
D. APPOINTMENT TO BLUFF CREEK (LYMAN BOULEVARD TO HIGHWAY 41) -'
DESIGN TEAM.
Hoffman: This is going to be a fun little task force I believe. If you have any spare time...
This one actually will. The design charette effort that we talked about earlier and it has to do
with the two developments which we reviewed and then the remainder of the properties so
again, Kate Aanenson is our city's newest department head as Planning Director. Paul
Krauss' last day was today. Kate will be heading up this effort. In addition to other staff
members and I will include a member of this commission. Planning Commission, City
Council and then the folks...1andscaping.
Andrews: Is there anybody that's interested?
Lash: I'm judging the coloring contest.
Andrews: Todd, can you check Dave Huffman's...?
Hoffman: Item 8(d) on June 6th.
Andrews: When do they have to have an answer on this? Tonight?
.....",
40
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Hoffman: Tonight would be preferable. You could defer it to your work session...
Andrews: I guess I would hate to deprive Dave a chance to serve if he would be interested.
Berg: He deserves to be asked.
Andrews: I think we should defer this and give him a chance but at the next work session
we have to find a volunteer so check your calendars and see if you could fmd a possible
second alternative here.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS:
A. HIGHWAY S PEDESTRIAN OVERPASS. COMMISSIONER ANDREWS.
Andrews: I think it was at the last work session we talked about this a little bit. I had a
concern about the placement of the proposed pedestrian overpass over Highway 5. That it
would link, although it links two trail segments, that it would not link the area of most likely
the greatest need which is going to be further the west in our town where the commercial
"..... development's going. And I had asked that we look at this again this meeting and not so
; much approve or disapprove but just state, do we still support where it is. And if so, we
should state it. If we don't support where it is, we should state that. I think it's already a
done deal but I think we should at least state what we feel. I have a concern that it is going
to end up being located at the wrong spot. That it would be better down by Market, which I
know is going to create some great problems but I think it would be a better connection for
actually usage by people in the city.
Hoffman: Is the commission aware that this item was presented to you on 3-6 months ago.
Something like that To review it as an alignment change in the comprehensive trail plan
so...at least the change in the trail plan which then went to abut this overpass...approved by
the commission.
Andrews: I know Todd.
Lash: Did we approve that?
.1""'"
Andrews: Yeah, but I have to also say that we were under a crisis pressure here to make
decisions. This whole thing came about basically as a way to get a hold of money that we
heard about and this was thrown together extremely fast and that's also obvious in the fact
that the bridge cost has increased by about $200,000.00. I guess I don't think that we have to
apologize that we think we might want to change our minds when they just approved a
41
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
.....,/
$200,000.00 increase in expenditure to build it
Lash: So when it came to us, was it in the form of. I don't even remember this, to tell you
the truth. Did it come in the form of that we were going to qualify for a grant and this was
the way it was and did we support that or did we pick a site and apply for a grant?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: We didn't? Okay.
Andrews: This came from planning.
Lash: So it was sort of a package deal to us and.
Hoffman: It started in planning. At that point it was either, even at that point 6 months ago,
it was a formality that we had to change the trail system, the comprehensive trail plan to
align up with this particular project.
Lash: And at that point in time was it to be funded primarily through grant money?
...."
Hoffman: At that time it was about an equal split Since that time it's about 113 grant and
2/3 trail, or city money I believe.
Lash: Is that HRA money?
Hoffman: Correct.
Roeser: So where' s it crossing right now?
Hoffman: If you take,out a map. Just west of McDonald's and the Sinclair.
Andrews: There's that high point there.
Hoffman: So as you come in on Highway 5, hit the intersection of McDonald's right in here
and continue on down Highway 5 and right there is the crossing. Right at that island where
the church is. The church on one side and the old concrete plant on the other side which the
building, the wood structure was burned off. That will be demolished. That will be the touch
down point where that old concrete plant was.
Andrews: The current north/south linkage would be at Market, wouldn't it? I mean going
42
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
north and south into the other parts of the trail system.
Hoffman: I didn't understand your question.
Andrews: The trail going south into the main part of, the southern part of Chanhassen would
be at the Market intersection wouldn't it?
Hoffman: Yeah. It'd be TH 10 1 and Market.
Andrews: Okay. So this would be an easterly diversion from anybody intending to travel
north/south?
Hoffman: Correct...right now is that again.
Andrews: Yeah, I know you had concerns.
Hoffman: The HRA took this upon themselves...with the Planning Department at some point.
The topography does allow for the connection to be very nicely without ramping either the...
"...... or the steps, which we no longer do. And I'm not sure that would work at Market. There's
merits to both locations just on a couple of different levels. One is a better location I believe
for the future of Chanhassen and one is a good location for the present day and a good
location because of topography. But the future population base down TH 101 south corridor,
they'll be a major bulk. A bikeway lane allowing for commuter bikeways on TH 101 south.
And a trail system so as that develops, the main population will come up TH 10 1 and then
they will have to make a choice if they want to cross over at that point. Either cross at grade
at Market or to the east and then cross over...based on who you're traveling with. If you've
got children, that type of thing and you want to get across, you're probably forced to go
down to the overpass.
Andrews: There's just also no doubt that the commercial center of the city is moving
towards the west.
Lash: I would look at either TH 10 1 or Market or Powers. Any of those to me would be
better than Dakota.
Roeser: There will probably be another one some day.
Lash: They're pretty expensive.
I"""
Andrews: That'd be awful close together to have two but.
43
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
.....,;I
Lash: Well I don't know. I agree. I think it's probably a done deal but I certainly wouldn't
have a problem with voicing an opinion that I think there would be a better location...
Manders: I would concur that it would be too bad just to put it in just for the sake of having
it in there. If it isn't functional as it could be. And being functional in the other areas maybe
is a bit of a stretch because of the topography wouldn't allow for it to be quite as functional
but I don't know. That's a tough one.
Andrews: My concern here is that the motivation for this is the money. The federal money.
Manders: It's a freebie.
Lash: I agree.
Andrews: I just think that I would rather pass up the $100,000.00 of federal money and put
it in the right spot. Than to grab it and say well geez, we've got that money. We'd better
not let it go. I know there are a lot of other people who would disagree with that opinion.
That we should take whatever we can get when we can get it and just go for it.
Berg: But a walkway that's .not going to be used isn't worth $100,000.00 or anything else.
....."
Lash: Right. And that's $100,000.00 that we're getting from them but it's $200,000.00 that
we have to pay.
Andrews: No, it's about $300,000.00 now.
Lash: And when you look at the big picture, I think it's all tax.
Berg: There is no free lunch.
Lash: Right. It's coming from somewhere and it's coming from us. So whether it's federal
or city, in the end it's coming from us. I can think back many, many years across 494 I
believe. There was a road before Carlson towers went in and there was that road, a bridge
that went across 494 for many, many, many, many years and there was no road on either side
of the bridge. It was just a bridge that went across 494 and I, ultimately it did end up getting
used but the number of times people would drive over there I'm sure think the same thing as
me. Boy, how much money was spent to put that bridge there and there's no road. And this
is the same kind of thing. If that kind of money goes in and people are driving under it, if
we ever do want to put in another one someday, people aren't going to be excited about that
idea because they were going to think the first one was stupid to start with. You lose
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I""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
credibility when you screw up the ftrst time.
Andrews: I'm working on a resolution here.
Hoffman: In Commissioner Huffman's notes, he wanted to make the following remarks for
the record. I'm strongly in favor of the current location for the Highway 5 pedestrian
overpass. An attempt to move the overpass would create unnecessary delays. The overpass
is a physical link for the southern neighbors to safety traverse Highway 5.
Andrews: So we'll consider that he would be a no vote if there's any consideration. What I
have is resolve that the Park Board recommends that the City Council reconsider the merits of
approved pedestrian overpass and examine beneftts of relocating the pedestrian overpass west
to the Market Boulevard intersection.
Lash: Do you want to speciftcally say Market?
Manders: Or just west?
,...., Lash: I don't know that I'm willing to get that specific.
Andrews: Okay, let's leave that as one of the possible westerly locations but.
Lash: Does it actually have to be at an intersection?
Andrews: From a land, well there is some land over there you could run it through.
Hoffman: Yes, it would have to be, for trail systems, for public ownership of right-of-way,
etc, etc.
Andrews: . I'll try to repeat for you. Resolve that the Park Board recommends that City
Council reconsider merits of approved pedestrian overpass and examine beneftts of relocating
the pedestrian overpass west to another, more favorable location. How many here would
support that resolution? Okay, we have 6 in favor and 1 opposed. Thank you.
Hoffman: One absentee vote...
Andrews: I think Dave would vote against that by his notes. Any comments about the
Administrative Packet? Or any other commissioner presentations?
I"""
Berg: What's the latest with Chan Estates and the trees?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
......,
Hoffman: The roadway project?
Berg: Yeah.
Hoffman: I saw that was scheduled for approval of plans and specifications at the City
CounciL.concessions made, minor concessions made to narrow the roadway I think by 2 feet
to save some of the trees...120 to 80 or something. That would be my...
Meger: Todd, any more specifics...and her concern? From Chanhassen Estates. She had
some concerns but.
Roeser: That you handled really well Todd.
Meger: And she's not elated.
Hoffman: That was in regard to the same project for the proposed...called Rice Marsh Lake
Park. They would have to dig out an existing and storm water pipe, which was right on the
property line and the remainder of the row of trees. So what was decided, instead of doing
that they would leave that pipe and install. an additional...
....",;I
Lash: I have just a couple of other questions regarding...the senior men who made the wood
duck houses. Remember when we went through all the mosquito thing and we need bat
houses and some other kind of bird house, right?
Andrews: Martins.
Lash: What is it?
Andrews: Martins?
Roeser: Blue birds.
Lash: What is it?
Lemme: They did a blue bird project last year.
Lash: But it's not blue bird.
Hoffman: We talked about bats specifically.
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Lash: Wasn't there another kind of bird?
Andrews: Mosquito eating birds.
Hoffman: Martins.
Lash: Well I just figure if they're interested in making a project.
Berg: Put some martin houses out at Lak~ Ann Park.
Roeser: They live in apartment houses don't they?
Hoffman: Martins?
Roeser: Yeah.
Andrews: Do we have money in our budget to give a little help towards materials and that?
,... Hoffman: Yes. We can pay for materials.
Andrews: Okay, very good.
Lash: And then the other thing that I have a question on, and I know Jerry's not here but
Todd, I'm sure you know the answer to this. In the baseball leagues, the softball leagues.
With the eligibility. I know it's such a bed of worms but, with the people grandfathered and
the residents and then people who work in the city. The people who work in the city, are
they eligible then for all of the leagues or is it just the industrial leagues? If they're on a
company team or can they play on any team or what? ...on any team, okay.
... Andrews: Any other comments on administrative packet? Todd, have you had any contact
from Tonka United Soccer about more field practice space yet?
Hoffman: No, not after...
Lash: Is it coming?
Andrews: It's coming.
Roeser: We're opening up a can of worms aren't we?
"
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
-'
Andrews: I don't think it's anything different than what's happened in past years. I just
have, because I'm getting more involved with Tonka United, I've asked them to more
formalize what the arrangements are so that it's clear. Because when you don't have formal
arrangements, then you have some people that abuse the parks.
Manders: I have kind of a different type of question relating to the trail around Lake Ann.
Where it finishes and I never remember that little park. Is there anything in the works that
would resolve that muck down there?
Hoffman: We're going to continue that trail as part of a contract with...construction. They're
under contract. It was left open over the winter. They'll extend it for, I don't know we said
50 to 80 feet to get it down to.
Roeser: Will they go up the hill with it do you think?
Hoffman: If you wanted we could add that.
Manders: Just get out of the muck is all I want.
Hoffman: ...identify where we would turn up and where we get in because it's gated. The
trail can not go up and around the gate because you have berms and rocks. If there was a
nice extended alignment, we would have ran it right up to the street. But it isn't optimal.
...",
Manders: But that's in the works though?
Hoffman: You bet. See it in the spring.
Andrews: That reminds me of two more. Irrigation project. Is that guy motivated, is that
done?
Hoffman: It's not done, no. The project was again left open over the winter season. It will
be completed in the spring and he has a punch list which he completed last fall and they'll
come in. He wanted to get out of the project. In fact...and he wanted to get out of it. Test it
out quick last fall...and have the city sign off on it. We did not think that was appropriate.
We wanted to have it fully operational this spring...so he will be back out there...
Andrews: This is the third year? Third season now we're into?
Hoffman: Construction on that?
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I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
Andrews: Yeah.
Lash: No, it was supposed to be done...
Hoffman: We started in the late fall of the year before...
Andrews: And the last thing would be, is there anything left to be corrected, the new park
pavilion?
Hoffman: Funny you ask. I drafted a 3 page memorandum to their attorneys today. We're
still in dispute over the final payments. Essentially the project is closed out. We continue to
experience, as owners of the building, some frost heave problems which we need to evaluate
and the...heating the building minimally during the summer so we don't continue to have
these frost problems. First solve the...issue and the city stands firm on our position of what
we have offered...both the Park Commission and the City Council were acting in that regard
and they had additional...clause where they ran past their completion date. It was August of
that year. A year ago last August. They ran past that by 9 months. So they accumulated
considerable liquidated damages because just my time and the building officials time and the
,...., city attorney's office time and Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings time for professional services and
. inspections, etc. The city elected only to asses them and charge them for the professional
services from'the architect. That amounted to just over $l1,ooo.OO...alleges that those charges
are excessive. We tell them that we are going easy on them in that regard. If they wish to
continue that allegation, we will take back that offer and send them the full bill. The other
issue is in regard to the final change order list, which they submitted that at $19,000.00 and
some odd dollars. All of those items but one were approved. It was the biggest one on there
for about an $8,500.00 for replacement of the front slab around the building and the day they
poured that it was a late fall day and I just happened to be on site. Conducting a random site
visit I couldn't believe the conditions under which they were pouring that concrete. They
had the substrate there which was a wet saturated sand with water and mud. It was very hard
to tell the difference in terms of what was concrete and what was substrate. So again, the
conditions there were not conducive and did not meet the specifications for the city. I
questioned Mr....the representative of ALM that day on the site. I said these are not
acceptable working conditions for pouring this concrete. He said he understood that and he
accepted responsibility for the slab if it failed. So it did fail. That following spring it
failed...on site and said, we talked last fall when you poured this. The slab has failed. It's
cracked, it's heaved...and it needs to be replaced and he said yes, it will be replaced.
However, he then billed us for it so that was his second mistake. So you'll be able to read
that me~or~dum...and again, I hate to see the city spend money and spend my time and the
attorney s tune...
I""'"
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - March 22, 1994
-"
Lash: I have one that just popped into my head. This is sort of work related but the Lake
Ann related. The Early Childhood Center has their end of the year picnic yearly at Lake Ann.
They have for quite a few years. And I don't know, because I haven't talked to the person
who's trying to organize it. It's always the head of our PTO that books the site and they're
having a problem because everyone who's coming in will need to have a parking pass to get
in and in years past they're telling us that that was never the case and the only thing that I
can figure, I called Jerry and talked to him and the only thing we could figure was the night
that they had it, it was when there was no gate attendant on duty so people were able to just
get in. They paid, the PTO paid the reservation fee but said they never had to pay any
parking fee. And so somebody came and talked to me and asked if there was anything that I
could do. I called Jerry and he said, oh I can't waive the fee for you guys. And I said I
realize that and then I got to thinking of our new rate structure and if they were to decide to
book it anyway, would they be charged the non-resident business fee? Because it's not in
Chanhassen but it's a part of the school district and services. The kindergartners from
Chanhassen.
Hoffman: ...in order to make that determination but I can't answer that. I want to read that
specifically. It certainly shows some merit that they would be a resident type group but that's
exactly why we discussed that...
Berg moved, Meger seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The meeting was adjourned.
--'
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
"
....""
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