PRC 1994 05 24
,....,
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
MAY 24, 1994
Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Dave Huffman, Jan Lash, Jane Meger, Ron Roeser,
Jim Manders and Fred Berg
MEMBERS ABSENT: None.
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor
APPROV AL OF MINUTES: Meger moved, Huffman seconded to approve the Park and
Recreation Commission Minutes dated April 26, 1994 as presented. All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
,.....
VISITOR PRESENTATION:
DICK BROWN. CHANHASSEN AMERICAN LEGION.
Dick Brown: My name is Dick Brown. I'm here on behalf of the Chanhassen American
Legion baseball program. In short, and I'll get into it a little bit later. I'm asking for
specified times for our team to practice on Lake Susan. My understanding, and this is just on
weekends. I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, that on Saturday and Sunday Lake
Susan is open to the public, fIrst come, first serve. Okay. The American Legion program in
Chanhassen is sponsored of course by the Chan Legion and it's been in existence probably
for about 15 years now. I think it's a pretty important program and I think it's a real asset to
any community. Legion baseball like this. I think we have a young man here who's a
graduate from the legion program and he's a good example of what can happen when you
play Legion baseball. In addition to running the Legion program for Chanhassen, I'm also a
sub-district director for the State of Minnesota. I run an 8 team conference in this side of
town. Side of the county if you will. 7 county area. One of the things I insist on, in
running this, is that each community or each legion sponsoring a team provide a good
baseball fIeld within their ability, or if they can't, to fInd some near neighbor who will
provide that field. And also I ask that they provide ample structured practice time for the
kids too. Now the reason I do this with all of the teams in'the conference is that the kids in
this baseball program are ages 16 to 18 and the big share of them, especially the 17-18 year
"" old kids work a job. Part time, full time, whatever. And I think it's important that the kids
1
in the program be given a specific time that they have to practice in addition to the game
times so that they can work around their schedule. I don't know if anybody, is everybody ....."
familiar with the way Legion baseball works? It's in it's 75th now. I think it's important
because it's...and the principles under which it operates develops good people. Not only good
ball players but good people. The problem we've had in the past here, and these 2 gentlemen
can testify to this, is that if we go down on a Saturday or Sunday and try to practice, we've
had a confrontation or two with people who happen to be there at the same time. And I
would like to avoid this. I don't think it's necessary to the times that I would like to practice,
first of all. I'd like to practice Saturday from 10:00 to 1:00 and on Sunday from 4:00 to
7:00. For your information Jerry, I changed that time and I picked these times to try to avoid
the times that I feel the field would get the least amount of use from the general public. 4:00
to 7:00 on Sunday generally is a quiet time. There's not people out there and I've kind of
monitored this well a little bit last year and then I've done some this year. It seems to me
that these two specific times would avoid most people being there on a consistent basis
anyway and would provide a good...for my kids to practice too. My background, I guess to
give you a little background. I've been in Chanhassen for 24 years myself. I've worked hard
at this program and we've had a real difficult time probably in the last 5 years in getting what
I call a Chan element in our program because our baseball program frankly hasn't been very
good. The coaching hasn't been good. It's getting better. I think we have now, and I don't
know, the number's probably 600 plus kids in our system coming through. So I see in the
years to come a good strong program. A lot of opportunity for kids and my dad, you don't
have to stick with just one legion program, or baseball team. If you have enough kids, you
can have 2 teams so we're not limiting the American Legion program to just 1 team. You
can have 2 teams of 18 kids if you have enough kids who are qualified to play and if you .....,I
have qualified coaches. I see probably in 5 to 7 years those things coming to pass. I work
with the coaches as much as I can to try to implement this to get the kids coming through the
system, and we do include girls too so, I'm not just here saying it's just for boys. I think it's
just as important for the girls too. I guess in essence what I'm looking for or asking I should
say is those two times that I talked about so we can give the kids time I think they deserve.
And to avoid confrontation with the general public. Does anybody have any questions I can
answer?
Berg: Yeah Mr. Brown, how many kids are involved in your, are we talking about here in
your program?
Dick Brown: Our team consists of 18 players.
Lash: Where do they play their games now? In Chanhassen.
Dick Brown: Lake Susan.
Berg: When are the games? We play our games on Monday and Wednesday and what I do
in scheduling the 8 team conference, I use Monday Wednesday so everybody can have a
fixed time. The Monday or Wednesday that we're not home I make sure that these fellows
...",
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
know those days are available so we can make the best use of the field possible. And I think
right now the Monday or Wednesday we're not home, I think we're scheduling probably 16
year old kids. Does that answer your question?
Lash: Who's using it, are the 16 year olds using it the other nights? The Tuesday and
Thursday?
Ruegemer: Yeah. That area is being utilized by the Chaska, the district wide baseball
program and then also the 12-13 year old program...so the field is being used every night of
the week so, and weekends.
Lash: The 12 and 13 year olds are using it?
Ruegemer: ...it's their baseball program.
Dick Brown: The 12 and 13 year olds have to use the 45 foot base pad.
,...,
Huffman: What kind of confrontations did you say you had...?
Dick Brown: I think last year and I wasn't there when it happened but Todd's real familiar
with it. And I don't want to get into the details but basically what happened was, there were
some people picnicking I believe and using the field and the coach came to practice and I
can't recall the time and put a stop on them so the people thought he was there too early or
didn't deserve to be there or whatever. They got into it a little bit and she threw a bucket of
water on him. Todd, is that right?
Berg: Jerry I've got some questions maybe you can answer. What kind of public use is this
park getting during these times? Do we have any idea?
Ruegemer: As far as Lake Susan is one of our nicer or one of our second I guess picnic
pavilion covered areas so it is being used on the weekends for picnics and that type of thing.
Generally for our picnics are typically starting like around 11:00 or 12:00 timeframe and then
they're wrapping down between about 5:00 and they're leaving. There are people that want
to take advantage of the afternoon type of thing. Some might go a little bit longer. Some
might go a little bit shorter. It's just on an average throughout the course of the day on
Sundays. Typically on Saturdays it's about the same time frame. Maybe a little bit
earlier...on Saturdays because people go to church, that type of thing but generally on the
weekends it's again, like an 11:00 or 12:00 time starting and some may go until 8:00 or 9:00
at night.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
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Berg: Has anybody ever, anybody else ever asked for this type of arrangement? Being able
to reserve a park like Lake Susan for baseball.
Ruegemer: For practices?
Berg: For practice.
Ruegemer: Sure. Sure. You know every year we have, with the new baseball programs in
town, with the games being utilized on the fields during the week at the legion field on
Highway 5, Lake Ann and also Lake Susan, we're running short of baseball fields in town
here and that's really the most, in the policy that we've established, games have priority over
practices and those practices are getting pushed back so a lot of teams aren't having practices.
So it's important that teams have to practice too so I guess that's why Dick was asked I guess
or Dick asked to present this information tonight.
Manders: Mr. Brown did you mention earlier, when I just walked in about the usage of the
legion field is the problem that there's overlapping times or you can't use the legion field or
how does that factor into this?
Dick Brown: What do you mean by legion field?
....,;
Ruegemer: The one up on Highway 5?
Manders: Yeah.
Ruegemer: Really the use of that field is the most conducive to Mr. Brown's needs.
Manders: Oh it's too small?
Dick Brown: It's too small and too close to the highway. We have big kids and we'd be
hitting foul balls over the gas station. We did do that until it became evident that...move the
highway back towards the Legion and then I think the city cut a deal with the Legion for
letting the smaller kids use it.
Lash: Are there any other fields in the city that meet the specs for legion ball besides Lake
Susan?
Ruegemer: No. Lake Ann possibly but really the legion field is really the best suitable area
for this particular program because of the older aged kids.
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"""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Huffman: We've got an item also here on 11 tonight...what has been the policy of using the
park? H somebody comes into a picnic area and says we want to use Lake Susan. Are they
using all the facilities? Do they want to come in and use the ballfields and park area? How
is that space defined?
Ruegemer: Typically when people make a picnic reservation, what's included in that
reservation fee is the picnic site itself. Along with the fIreplace, the electricity and the
bathrooms and things. All the other general amenities are not included in within that picnic
fee so those are subject then to use by the general public.
Huffman: Has it been historically proven that when people come there they want to have
access to those other facilities and amenities though? They want the baseball field available
if they're bringing 200 people and those sort of stuff.
Ruegemer: You know I'd say a higher percentage would like to use the fIeld if it would be
available but some it isn't an issue but most of it is.
Hoffman: We would certainly want to make those people out at Lake Susan aware of any
,...... type of scheduled activities in that ballfIeld because it is the single ballfield at Lake Susan.
Whereas Lake Ann you have the availability of #7 plus #6 plus #5 too so if the commission
saw fit to approve your request, then we would want to communicate with them, tell the
reservation people...picnicking, playing softball or what have you.
Lash: I don't think that is being a conflict for this because I too feel if somebody's
scheduling a company picnic, they're going to be assuming that they can ball if they want to.
And I would be more comfortable with discussing this request at either the times limited to
times that aren't generally book by the public for picnics, which would be pretty much a.m.
hours, before noon and after 5:00 or else suggesting that they try to make the best of it at
Lake Ann where there are more fields available so then if there are groups there...needs met.
Is that something that would work for you?
Dick Brown: It won't work at all and I'll tell you why. Why I would like Lake Susan.
Number one, the way the park is set up, it's safe so nobody's going to get hurt. People in the
parameters, including the people picnicking are far enough away so they're not going to get
hit by a foul ball. We used to play at Lake Ann and we constantly had foul balls going into
other fIelds and it got to the point where I wouldn't do it anymore. I just wouldn't have
practice because I didn't want somebody getting hurt. I'd rather avoid the injury if I can.
Lash: What about having the practices be before noon and after 5:oo?
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
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Dick Brown: I'm asking for before noon and after 5:00.
Lash: I thought you wanted 10:00 to 1:00 and 4:00 to 7:00 which if picnics start at 12:00
and go to 5:00, then we're cutting in at the beginning and the end.
Dick Brown: We could go 10:00 to 12:00 I suppose, sure.
Andrews: I have a couple questions and comments. I'm very concerned about this partly
because I see the weekend as one of the few times that some families have an opportunity to
use the parks at all. I would be against this proposal unless, in particular on Saturday, we
moved the practice time out of the picnicking hour. My suggestion would be, and I know
this would be inconvenient but I think this is a situation where you need to accommodate us
instead of the other way around.
Dick Brown: I understand.
Andrews: Because I think that the public has, the general public has a right to use the
facilities like Lake Ann without being imposed upon by scheduled activities. You know it's
been a prior park.
...."
Dick Brown: We're not talking about Lake Ann.
Andrews: Or Lake Susan, pardon me. My suggestion would be, and I don't know if this is
workable. would it be possible to have baseball practice starting as early as 8:00 and out of
there by 11:00 so that picnickers could use the park?
Dick Brown: Well I could certainly try it...players and see. I have a real problem, have you
spent any time down there to see when people come and go?
Andrews: No.
Dick Brown: I have. And I can assure you from my observations only, and this is only my
own opinion, the time from 10:00 until 1:00 there are very few people on the field. Any
Saturday you go down there. There may be a game scheduled I think sometimes. 13, 15
year olds. I've seen them. But the general public, I haven't seen that happen. And the 4:00
to 7:00 is the same. That's why I picked these times.
Andrews: I can see the Sunday time probably as a more likely time to have light traffic but I
guess if I were coming down there. Let's say my neighbors and I packed up our cars and our
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II"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
picnic baskets and drove down there on Saturday at noon and we couldn't get on that field,
I'd be real ticked. I mean as a taxpaying citizen. I would say it'd be much likely to have
anybody come down there with organized baseball as a spontaneous or casual activity
between 8:00 and you know, before the lunching hour or picnic hour.
Dick Brown: ...that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to take over the general
public's.
Andrews: No, but that would be a.
Dick Brown: I am part of the general public.
Andrews: I understand but it would be a potential consequence and you're here tonight
asking for the schedule time. What will inevitably happen is somebody will come here later
and say, we went down there for a neighborhood picnic and we couldn't even use the
ballfield because there was a scheduled practice. How come? What are you going to do
about it? So we have to balance both issues and later on in our packet tonight we have a
letter from a young fellow from up in the North Lotus Lake area who sent us a letter
"'" complaining that he wanted to use the park and he couldn't use it because there were
organized teams using his park so we have both sides of the issue we have to balance. I look
at Lake Ann and Lake Susan as parks that we have tried to, in particular trying to keep the
organized activities off of on the weekends so. It's a concern that we start to do this and
then, you know I've very active in soccer. Not in baseball but then the same things will
come up there. We need, we're out of field space too. We've got 30 teams practicing a
night sometimes. Where do they go? Do they practice then from 1:00 to 3:00 on a field and
somebody else from 3:00 to 4:00. Pretty soon you have no time left at all for anybody just to
come and use our parks and I don't want that to happen.
Dick Brown: And I don't intend to argue with that. I think they do deserve, just what you
say is true. From my perspective, I happen to think the American Legion baseball team is a
community asset and in that respect deserves a little more consideration than maybe you're
going to give them. Because it represents a community.
Meger: I want to ask I guess Jerry a question along the same lines as what kind of precedent
we might be setting then for additional community type teams. Maybe not an American
Legion team but all of the other teams as far as them starting to call and wanting to reserve
ballfields as well. That I think is my main concern is once we start reserving for one, then
are the phone calls really going to start flooding in saying what's going to be my time.
Ruegemer: I think in going through this whole process, I think you have to take a look at
."""
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
--'
that aspect of it too. In going through your thought process, I think those issues need to be
reviewed. It's certainly a possibility.
Andrews: We have a shortage of facilities. I mean we recognize that and.
Dick Brown: Sure, everybody does. You're not alone.
Andrews: And we're all struggling to find more field space for all activities.
Manders: You're talking about reserving time basically Sunday or Saturday and Sunday?
Dick Brown: Saturday and Sunday. That's what I'm asking for. I'm just simply asking.
Manders: It seems to me that I could certainly live with Sunday morning. I don't have any
problem with that at all.
Hoffman: Sunday afternoon 4:00 to 7:00 is what they're asking for.
Berg: What's the time line Dick? I mean how long. Now through.
Dick Brown: Well probably no later than let's say July 18th maybe.
"""'"
Hoffman: Certainly for everybody's benefit. Picnics aren't up and running now so there
wouldn't be a conflict probably this weekend but as the summer gets rolling, that's going to
be.
Dick Brown: We do have a short season.
Roeser: I think I'd be willing to have a go at this too but earlier hours too. I think maybe
8:00 to 10:00, 8:00 to 11:00 but this seems like you're really hit, on Saturday, you're really
hitting the middle of the day to me now. Maybe it doesn't to you and the same way with
Sunday. Perhaps a little bit later. Say start practice at 6:00. I think Sundays, people start to
melt away late in the afternoon where you probably wouldn't have as many conflicts on
Sunday late in the afternoon and Saturday early in the morning.
Dick Brown: Well and another thing is...they play 2 games a week. Sometimes 3 and
weekends I hate to keep them out until 8:00-9:00 at night. They should be home.
Berg: But we're talking juniors and seniors during the summer. They're not going to be
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I"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
home anyway.
Dick Brown: I raised 5, I know what they're like.
Berg: I don't think there's going to be a lot of them that will have to be home before 8:00.
I guess my concern is the one that's been raised before too and to leave them start dealing
with scheduling CAA teams at Rice Marsh Lake and others on Saturdays and Sundays and
are we opening up a whole Pandora's Box here in terms of scheduling practices on weekends
and I guess I see the issue as something we have to discuss as a commission and I'm not
prepared to make a decision tonight just because I see a shift in philosophy that I think needs
to be discussed.
Lash: I think it would be wise to heed one of the comments in here about making a
distinction between community parks and neighborhood parks and trying to eliminate
scheduling in the neighborhood parks and try to contain it to the community parks. And
contain it to the non-reservation times. If it's a facility that can be reserved for picnicking
like Susan, and Lake Ann. Although Lake Ann's different because there are so many fields
there but if they tend to reserve a block of time, let's say it's from 11:00 or noon, to 5:00,
,....... then that time I think should not be scheduled with league activities because I think people
who are booking that, paid money for that have the right to expect the usage of the facilities,
whether it's written...or not.
Huffman: It's more implied. I'm bringing a group. You want to have.
Lash: And if they want to come back the next year and they've had a bad experience by
having a run in with a team and not having fields to play in and all that, they're not going to
want to book it again next year.
Dick Brown: Can I ask a question in that regards? So this young gentleman who wrote
because he couldn't get on the fields, really doesn't have any more right than the community
at large right? And I agree with what you're saying. It should with the community, just
because he lives in close proximity doesn't mean it's his park.
Lash: That's what he.
Andrews: He was there first.
Lash: He was there first and didn't need to leave.
I""
Dick Brown: What you call a neighborhood, is it a neighborhood?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
.......",
Lash: That was a neighborhood park.
Huffman: We have a very definitely distinction between community and neighborhood parks.
Dick Brown: Do we have neighborhood parks here?
Lash: Most of them are neighborhood parks.
Dick Brown: Now does that give the neighbors their use?
Andrews: No, no, no. It's a term, not a restriction. It's a smaller facility.
Lash: It's the philosophy of usage. And having the amenities there.
Dick Brown: Okay. I don't know, I get the feeling that I'm going to lose this request
Andrews: I'm not sure we're prepared to give you your answer tonight. I mean this is.
Dick Brown: I don't expect you. No, I don't expect your answer. In fact I don't want your
answer because I think I know what it is. In the meantime, whoever's first come, first serve.
You know we can still use the fields.
-'*"
Andrews: Yes. I think this will come up again on an agenda because the facility demand,
not only by baseball but by virtually every field sport is just pressing this issue harder and
harder every season and we don't have space to take care of everybody. And each year the
programs grow and it gets worse and worse.
Dick Brown: Do you folks set the policies as to field usage?
Andrews: Yes.
Dick Brown: So you may have to make a decision someday and tell the people at large that
these general usages and this is why we're doing it.
Andrews: That's correct Each season the decisions are getting harder and harder to make.
More and more conflict between organized uses and passive or unorganized uses. And it's
always hard to make that distinction or make that decision because organized teams appear to
be more efficient in their use of a space but then again the person that just happens to walk to
the park wants to be able to use it and should they have less of a right because they don't
happen to have 9 people with the same colored uniforms on? Or 11 in the case of soccer.
10
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,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
No, they shouldn't.
Dick Brown: Takes away the incentive for the organized people though.
Andrews: Well but all the taxpayers have contributed to our system and they have a right to
expect facilities too.
Roeser: You do use the fields for your games right? So they are available. It isn't like
we're cutting him completely off from the fields. You do get the use of the fields.
Dick Brown: Oh that's, yeah I agree. I think we should be thankful for what we get. The
thing I really have a, I strongly...the other 7 teams in the conference do manage to fmd
practice time, structured facilities for these teams. Why they do and you can't, I don't know.
Andrews: Well, we haven't made a decision at all yet I personally could support a Sunday
use as a try-out. I would be hesitant to give a Saturday. I'm just scared that we're opening a
Pandora's Box here that could really bite us. I realize that if we put this into a future agenda,
by the time we do it, your need's already passed. So it's either do something now or the
,...... season's essentially gone for you.
Lash: I would go along with that too if we had time restriction for Sunday before 11:00 and
after 6:00 and then you can make your schedule according to the needs of your guys. If
some weekends they want to have it in the evening, and some Sundays they want to have it
in the morning, you have a little flexibility.
Andrews: Let's not reserve the space though and not have a team there to use it.
Lash: No, but it would be, they have to come up with a schedule and give it to Jerry and
then Jerry would know when it's going to be.
Dick Brown: What was your comment? I didn't understand.
Andrews: That we don't want to reserve both before 11:00 and after 6:00 if you're only
going to use it one time per day.
Dick Brown: And that's all we would.
Lash: You wouldn't want it both morning and evening. It would just be there one time.
JII"""
Dick Brown: No. He just said it himself, or somebody did here that organized teams have
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
....",
better efficient, or had more efficient use of their time. Believe me. When we get the kids
down there and say start at 4:00, they'd better be there at 4:00. When the time comes to quit,
they pick up and they'd better be gone. That's the way we run the program with this bunch.
I just feel pretty strongly about the Legion program. I've worked hard to try to make it what
it is and I'd sure like to continue to make it even better. The reason I feel so strongly is I
think this is a necessary thing for the kids to do.
Lash: And I think we all agree with that. You know and I'm sure that we would all
congratulate you on all the work you've put into it but then, but we're always in a spot
because there are so many people who want so many of the spaces. We just can't provide it
to everybody.
Dick Brown: And I'm not asking for...time.
Huffman: Well those of us who played American Legion baseball, I mean we can appreciate
it. I was a bad third baseman but I understand what you're going through and that's what
you're saying is that, this is a community park with needs and reservations and we're going
to have another, as I mentioned earlier, another group come here and have specific needs for
that park at specific times and if we're going to cut them out of some of their needs and
wants, yeah. This commission's going to have to make some hard decisions. .....,,;
Dick Brown: And certainly I don't intend to make my time at somebody else's expense.
That's not what I'm here for. Can I ask a question, the fellow that played legion baseball.
Did you have practice time?
Huffman: I can't remember that far back.
Roeser: It was so far back, yeah. Eden Prairie's entire school system was held in one
school. And they had a ballpark right behind it and we had all the time we wanted on it.
Dick Brown: Well I appreciate your time. And I think you know my feelings and I sure
hope you can help me.
Andrews: Would your preference, if we were to pick one of the two weekend days, would a
Saturday morning or Sunday.
Dick Brown: Can I speak? If I had a preference and only one day, I would prefer 4:00 to
7:00 on Sunday.
Andrews: Okay.
.......,
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Dick Brown: Now thaCs what we did last year I think pretty much and that worked.
Manders: Is what you did last year was basically on this fIrst come, fIrst serve basis is what
you're saying? And you went down there and you're saying that that doesn't work now
because you can't get in.
Dick Brown: ThaCs what you're thinking but my thought, I really had 4:00 to 7:00 last year.
Nobody ever showed up. We were the only ones there ever.
Manders: Well thaCs what I'm asking.
Roeser: You had it reserved 4:00 to 7:00.
Manders: 4:00 to 7:00 and it really wasn't a problem then.
Dick Brown: Let me explain. I understand, last year...there were no times that you could
reserve, is that right Todd? Or last year was no different than this year. We showed up
every Sunday at 4:00 until 7:00. I think we had one confrontation. Other than that, there
.,..... was nobody there. Even when there were people having picnics and there were a lot of times
where people, families. Small groups. Not large groups. You know maybe...never anybody
on the fIeld.
Berg: Why do you feel the need now to reserve then?
Dick Brown: I don't want another confrontation...
Ruegemer: I believe the confrontation was more than, it wasn't last year. I believe it was
the year before so, thaC s how quick time.
Dick Brown: My how time goes. No, I just thought in the best interest of everybody to do it
the way it should be done. I think I've got an excellent program and I've got a great bunch
of kids. Good sponsor. Good city. I just don't have the time, thaCs all.
Manders: Personally I'd be in favor of one of these times and then if there's feedback in
terms of people that reserve that space saying that something isn't working right here. We
reserved this park and paying x dollars for it and we can't use it, then we should be able to
come back and say, this isn't working. We're got to try something else.
,....,
Andrews: I'm going to ask that somebody make a motion for some action here and that I
would ask that that motion, this is my request, that that motion mention that our action would
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
....",
be temporary in nature and not a permanent change of park policy. So if somebody's willing
to put forth something specific, let's see if we can do it.
Meger: And which did you say, Saturday or Sunday?
Dick Brown: Sunday, 4:00 to 7:00.
Lash: Can you live with 5:001
Dick Brown: Well I'll live 5:00 or whatever you give me and if it works, it works. And if it
doesn't, it doesn't.
Lash: Alright. I would move that on a temporary basis we approve the use, the reservation
of Lake Susan ballfield for the Legion baseball team on Sundays from 5:00 to 8:00.
Andrews: Is there a second?
Roeser: I'll second that.
Andrews: Any further discussion?
,..,.,
Huffman: That is a trial basis?
Berg: Yeah, did you have a trial basis mentioned in your motion?
Meger: I would add on a temporary basis.
Dick Brown: You know you could add to the motion and I would agree to this. I want no
problems with anybody. I mean if we cause a problem for anybody, we'll take our
basketballs and go home. I mean that's.
Andrews: Yeah, that's assumed. Any other discussion?
Lash moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission grant on a
temporary basis that the Chanhassen American Legion baseball team may reserve the
baseball field at Lake Susan on Sundays from 5:00 to 8:00 p.m. for practice. All voted
in favor and the motion carried.
Andrews: Continuing on with visitor presentations. Is Dan, and I can't pronounce the last
name.
-"
14
,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Dan Doenges: Doenges.
Andrews: If you'd like to address the commission, please do so.
Dan Doenges: ...what this all boils down to is that...parks. I love them. I'm from Indiana.
Moved to Minnesota 7 years ago and we didn't have parks like this. We'd have a lake and
trails. The quality of the parks. This thing that really...from my park experience and the
experience of others that I've talked to at the park is the cigarette smoking that's at the park.
My most recent experience, latest experience was just last weekend. Went out fishing. First
time with my 3 year old boy and we walked up to the pier...the smell, the smoke was...
towards us so well, I'll have to put boat in and go to the boat ramp. We went there and then
the people who were fishing end up walking down and playing with a frisbee with their
cigarettes in their hands. You can't escape it...if you want to. The concerts last summer that
you had in the park. You pick out a nice spot for you and your family to enjoy an
experience this park sponsored activity and the person next to you, you have no control over.
Sits down and starts puffing away. We all know about that health habit is, whether it's
indoors or outdoors, it's still smoke is smoke. Looking around also you see the cigarette
butts floating in the boat ramps. You see them in the creek. You've got to...in the creek and
,...., eventually into the lake itself. So what I'm asking for is that I want to know if there's a way
we could better enjoy our parks by having an ordinance which would not allow smoking in
our parks. That's all the parks...neighborhood parks as well. We go to the neighborhood
parks quite a bit as well and, which really is there for the playground and the parents come
along are smoking there as well. And the...l've chosen, I end up walking away. Often times
making short our park experience. I don't feel that that's necessary. So I called the city
earlier this week, or early last week and talked to Todd briefly. He suggested I come down
and present this to the park. I know it's asking a lot. It's asking an awful lot really...I think,
and maybe you can correct me on this. That Chanhassen's the first city or town in the state
to prohibit cigarette vending machines in public places. So I know the city has...in the past.
It'd be great if it could happen again in the parks.
Andrews: Todd, I think this should be something we should put on a future agenda. I think
this is something I'd want to have to ask for input from interested public. I, myself am
allergic to smoke. I hate it but I'm not sure I'm prepared to tackle this one tonight. I think
it deserves a lot of, it's going to have some discussion I think, pro and con. I think we ought
to invite that.
Dan Doenges: I understand that. This has been...
,.....
Andrews: I appreciate that and without any other objections from any other commission
members, I think this should be put on as a future agenda item for park policy discussion.
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
....,,/
Dan Doenges: Could I be included?
Andrews: You'll be notified. Absolutely. Alright. thank you. Item 3 is a land development
proposal.
Lash: Did you want to check to see if there's any other?
Andrews: Oh I'm sorry. Are there any other visitor presentations here for tonight? Do we
have more visitor presentations? One more, okay. Come on up. Please state your name and
address for the record.
Connie Deafenbaugh: I'm Connie Deafenbaugh and I live at 8115 Erie Circle in Chanhassen.
Our home is situated adjacent to Rice Lake Marsh. Rice Marsh Lake Park. And we live on
a comer lot and the trail system, the new trail system is going between our house. Our's is
the fmallinkage to the trail that goes behind the new homes in Eden Prairie. Around the
border of Eden Prairie and Chanhassen. Up above Rice Marsh Lake. And our linkage will
be finalized with Lake Susan trail, which crosses TH 10 1. My family and I have lived in our
home for 12 years and the reason we moved there was because of the privacy and the
serenity of the area and now that. it's taken me a long time to get used to the fact that the
trail is going through and now I am used to that. So, but what has happened in the last ....."
couple of weeks is that literally hundreds of people have been going down that trail and it has
caused a lot of anxiety and I guess we are very, you know it's very difficult to get used to.
The people that are going along the trail are you know, normal every day people but it has, it
is so busy. It is unbelievable and we can't have a private back yard anymore. I'm asking the
park board members if they would consider financial support for a type of hedge, a privacy
hedge that would go along our back yard, along the trail. I have talked to several landscape
artists and what I got from them is the idea that a certain type of hedge which is called a
catoniaster is a very dense hedge. It grows tall but it doesn't grow out like a lilac or
dogwood...cover the trail. It would cause...they'd have to be chopped every once in a while.
So I really am pleading for some fmancial support for this. I talked to Jay up at Lotus Lawn
and Garden and for just the normal consumer he would charge $14.99 per bush in a 2 gallon
container and he figured that approximately 30, about 32 bushes would be needed and that
comes to about $480.00. And I was just wondering if you would all please consider this and
try to put yourselves in my situation. I know Dave had this same situation a couple of years
ago and a trail went behind his home. My home is located in kind of a bottleneck of the area
because we're adjacent to the park and people are just congregating there and I invite you all
to come over to my home on the weekend and experience this. It's quite emotional. I mean
the activity is very tremendous. So I would, I'll wait for you...tonight or if you could
consider this, I would appreciate it.
16
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Huffman: If I can throw a quick light on her problem. I don't know what you've done in
the past on the trail system. We did have a trail system that was moved back. We got an
easement moved that would have gone through our basement and at least had it moved back
to the wetland area. Connie's house is basically the entrance to Rice Marsh Lake Park.
When you come down, there's a narrowing of the road into the asphalt park. Her's is the
house on the left and as you come onto the trail you have to come back up the driveway, take
a right, and basically go along her fence line along the back yard. The second house next to
her sits back up on the hill. Everybody then begins sitting back farther up on the hill. There
is sumac and a lot of real nice natural areas the rest of the way. If you go early enough, you
can watch the kids get ready for school, and you do a nice job, by the way, of getting them
ready. It is, they have a real interesting problem there because their yard is on the trail and
while the trail is going in, I mean it's not stopping. I don't know if you've ever done
anything or anything like that but I would offer the fact that you seriously consider it because
this is something that nobody else in the city is going to look at is going to face. They have
a real dousy of a problem there. I don't know if you've ever done it or if a hedge, like I say,
if it's been done in the past but I would surely offer that this may be a unique situation.
Berg: That's basically this, the 30 to 32 plants would be on your property? We're not
,..., talking about other neighbors or.
Connie Deafenbaugh: No. ...they would be butted right on the edge of the trail and that
would cause a privacy hedge.
Berg: But I guess what I'm asking is, it's a privacy hedge that would basically serve you.
Just for point of information, we're not talking 5 other houses either. We're just talking
basically your's because of it's unique location.
Connie Deafenbaugh: Absolutely.
Manders: Is there concern with any of the other residents similar to your's?
Connie Deafenbaugh: Well, my next door neighbor who lives well, right next door to me,
they go away every weekend and they are gone the entire...because she's a teacher and they
have a cabin up north and they are gone all summer. And last weekend they were home and
Tim came over to me and he said, was it this busy last weekend? And he was very quite
surprised that it was that busy. You know I don't want to move. I love it here. I enjoy all
my neighbors. But it really is becoming quite...and the trail is not even completed yet as I
understand the rest of the trail which goes up near the new homes. I can't remember the
name of the area. It goes along Highway 5. All those new homes there. That's going to
hook up with New Brighton I believe. Eventually it is going to go, I've talked with Todd
,.....
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
....."
about it. That our trail by my house is going to hook with Eden Prairie and then go down
Dell Road and then into New Brighton. And all over into that area. I mean eventually it's
going to be just a huge long...
Hoffman: The trail system will connect with Eden Prairie's trail system and where you can
go from there is certainly you know leading, not in New Brighton but to any adjoining city.
Connie Deafenbaugh: Okay. And our trail isn't even completed yet and it's tremendously
busy.
Andrews: A couple questions for Todd. Maybe my recollection is faulty here but I believe
we have attempted to provide some screening in other park projects where we had some
possible detractions or not. Do you recall us doing something like this before?
Hoffman: As a part of our master plan of the park there's buffering that we put in in certain
instances. I would caution the commission, this is certainly not the only instance where we
put trails next to residences. You've had a difficult time in doing that. To my knowledge, in
my time here, we have not paid for buffering specific in a case such a this. And that's again,
we talked about precedent earlier, this would be a precedent for sure. You really need to
weigh the benefits of subsidizing $450.00 worth of shrubbery for what might entail...The -'
city's park system, or the city's trail system is just beginning and we would certainly have
additional issues very similar to this one with that happening.
Andrews: Yes, and I'm well aware of proposed trail linkages that would have much more of
an impact than what we're talking about here. And there was not discussion of providing
financial assistance to those property owners to compensate them.
Connie Deafenbaugh: Did they come to the park board meeting and?
Andrews: Oh yes. Those trails haven't been built yet and they may not be built for a long
time but those people were talking trails less than 50 feet from their kitchen windows. It was
considerably less than 50 feet.
Berg: Is there any way that the location of this could be considered an improvement to the
park itself?
Hoffman: The location of?
Berg: Of this potential hedge. In a CIP for Rice Marsh Lake Park.
18
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,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Hoffman: If you wanted to do something of that nature I would put the two homes which are
there, as Dave mentioned, in a diagram or a picture were prepared for the conservation would
help. But the two are unique. They are just kind of right up to the current road which is
there, the gravel road and there is a fairly substantial piece of property which is the city
property which is maintained by the residents...to do that. But that's what is there and the
Deafenbaugh back yard is actually on...city property and again, that's not uncommon. So if
you put up the privacy screen.. .down both property lines and if it would be a benefit to your
discussion.. .
Connie Deafenbaugh: I would take full responsibility as far as, you know if this were to
happen, to maintain the hedge. Water so that it keeps on living and keeps growing higher
and higher.
Manders: I guess personally I'd like to see the area or see some type of diagram to
understand it better. I mean not to say that that is going to answer the issues with precedence
and things like that. But I might appreciate better where you're coming from.
Connie Deafenbaugh: And you know I have also talked to Todd about putting up some signs
.IfII""" as far as keeping the people dog's on their leashes and keeping them on the trail and so the
signs are...but there is a big problem with dogs in the park and along the trail here. You
know that it causes very unsanitary conditions and I've talked to many people personally that
have asked him about that. But this would also be a hinderance...Thank you for your time.
Appreciate it.
Andrews: Are there any other visitor presentations tonight? If not, let's move on to item 3.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. PATRICK MINGER FOR THE REZONING OF
8.46 ACRES FROM A2. AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO RSF. RESIDENTIAL
SINGLE FAMILY AND PRELIMINARY PLAT INTO 17 SINGLE F AMIL Y LOTS
AND ONE OUTLOT LOCATED AT 8221 GALPIN BOULEVARD. SOUTH OF
TIMBERWOOD ESTATES.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Pat Minger: Yes, I'm Pat Minger. I live at 8221 and I'm the developer. When Todd, when
we put the development together he requested that he commit into the park, future park to the
south. Everything, I just got this Saturday and have been working with the city staff. I was
under the, the only...! was under the understanding that we'd get a credit on the park fee for
donating land and that's to be negotiated I guess. That's the only question that I had.
,.....
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
__"l
Lash: Donating what land?
Pat Minger: For the trail. The 20 foot wide.
Andrews: Todd, isn't it customary that the developer would be credited for that land taken
for the trail?
Hoffman: On trails, a 20 foot wide trail easement typically, the commission and council has
not issued credit in that regard. When we talked Outlot A we were adding a little piece of
the property to the parkland and that could be considered for credit but as far as he
mentioned...really a passive to the new development which is being proposed there and just
for easements, for...
Andrews: Thank you for that
Pat Minger: The only other thing that a developer that's...we preferred not to have it because
of a privacy issue that we had earlier. I don't know....if the city wants it, they can...
Andrews: I think it's an asset but I think it's also vitally important that if it's put on the plat,
that the developer not only discloses it but advertises that it's there because what we don't -"
want is somebody taking possession of a property or a home and saying, geez. Nobody ever
told me there was a trail here. And somehow that seems to happen.
Pat Minger: Well I live in this comer. I live on that comer. I'm going to be living in the
development and in talking with the Planning Commission, the parcel to the west of me is
really open...and how I got that little triangle at the bottom is beyond me but it just happened
you know so, and Tim Dempsey is the owner. Tim, Mr. Dempsey. You know that probably
can be sold to them just because I have no use for it And I don't think it would help the
park at all either...
Hoffman: In regard to Lot 17, I would certainly defer to you and...orient the house in such a
manner that the garage is on that side and do landscaping that's appropriate for that and
potentially inbetween Lots 16 and 17, move that lot line over and provide a little bit more
space on Lot 17. I think as long as you do that and the house is oriented correctly, then you
can steer away from any potential problems. From a planning perspective, that's just good
planning.
Pat Minger: Lot 16 is...
Andrews: Todd, would we normally build that trail or just take the easement with future
20
...,I
.""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
build, construction? I guess my hope is that when the roads get built, it'd be sure nice to put
the trail in right away before the houses are even up so it's there the day somebody drives in
and sees it. That that trail's already there.
Hoffman: Past practice for a number of years has been to sub that out so it's there and the
landscaping can go in and it can be developed as part of the...
Andrews: I would hope that the Council would ask for that to happen.
Pat Minger: You want it built you're saying too?
Andrews: No, I'm just saying that so when the future property owners purchase the lots, that
the trail's already there. That they see it the day they drive in. It's already there so there's
no surprises.
Lash: You know given the direction of this conversation I hate to even say this but
personally I would like to see another...
,..... Andrews: I knew you were going to say that.
Lash: If I lived in Lot 7 and to get to the park, I'm going to have to go out onto the street
and go all the way up and around and back onto the other cul-de-sac to get to the park that's
only one lot away from my house is a whole lot of wasted energy. You know when I'm
going to the park to get...go for a long walk first.
Andrews: Not that many lots. I think one is reasonable. Two would be nice but one is
reasonable. Is there anybody else in the audience that wishes to speak about this proposed
development?
Hoffman: If the commission sees fit to have that constructed, obviously we...
Pat Minger: Part of the negotiations to build this is that Mr. Dempsey would like his
privacy...and we can, as part of the city code, say that we can have 4 houses on the private
road. And I just think you should be made aware of that And...essentialIy it's going to be a
private drive so when Mr. Dempsey sometime goes from, it depends on what day you talk to
him. 3 year to 20 years.
Lash: Where does Mr. Dempsey live?
,....
Hoffman: Right here.
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
--'
Pat Minger: Right there and I respect his privacy also.
Lash: So you're saying that.
Pat Minger: That cul-de-sac where the trail is going to be going.
Lash: Is a private.
Hoffman: You're going to build a private drive here?
Pat Minger: Basically. It's not going to be a full street. It's going to be part of Mr.
Dempsey's requirement when he develoPs'''The builder's requested that the curb and gutter
get put on where the new houses are on this side and Mr. Dempsey has requested that, and
I'm trying to please everybody. And he likes as much privacy as possible so in the
negotiations, what we're doing is just basically making that a private drive. The right-of-way
is all going to be there and he just doesn't want a bunch of people going down along the
property. So it's going to be there...it's not going to be a full street.
Lash: With that information, would we be better moving this up to the trail?
Andrews: That's a concern. I mean are we going to be able to get maintenance vehicles in
there or is it going to be a plowed road?
-'"
Hoffman: The private drive issues, it's not in our purview. That would be discussed by
engineering. It's allowable under the ordinance to have 4 houses onto that. I would be
concerned though, we've had the situation where we've taken the easement, the 20 foot
easement and there's about a 50/50 shot once everything's built and done that we come back
and want to put our trail in... Again, it has been practice that we put those in, be constructed.
Put blacktop down and we pave that. Then everybody knows up front what's going on...
Andrews: Well being that this is termed a private drive, does that mean property owners
could restrict general public people from walking on the road?
Pat Minger: No. It's a public access. I mean it's a public street. We're just keeping it
narrow.
Andrews: Temporarily.
Pat Minger: Temporarily.
22
..."
"...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Andrews: Okay.
Pat Minger: Yeah, I mean a public right-of-way, the 50 foot right-of-way is going to be
there. That's just to accommodate you know, there's a few trees along that property line...
Manders: So that's a temporary.
Pat Minger: This is a temporary deal that's currently written into the...if those lots were ever
developed and Mr. Dempsey, he's responsible for fmishing that cul-de-sac.
Berg: And taking down the rest of the trees.
Pat Minger: Where is the trail going because if you go to the far back cul-de-sac, there's a
pretty steep hill going down to the creek. And up the other side.
Lash: Are you talking about the other cul-de-sac?
Pat Minger: No. Well, the trail in the park.
~
Hoffman: This is what has been planned. The concept, the park concept they have...number
7. That was a concern Pat that...If you go to the east cul-de-sac as you can see on this plan,
it'd be difficult because it'd be dropping into this location...location of the bridge and come
down this grade and cross here.
Lash: Does this one...on 17? 17 is here or 17 is...
Hoffman: This is the one cul-de-sac. The other cul-de-sac is over here...As the topography
stands, the current alignment is...
Manders: Where does this development sit according to this park?
Hoffman: Right to the north. The entire north boundary line. So this is your park here and
the entire north boundary line would actually be park.
Andrews: Ready to go on this one? Yeah, can I have a motion to take action? Are there
any more questions or comments to be made to the developer here? If not, is there a motion
that can be made for action please?
"'"
Berg: I move that we ask the Park, or the City Council to accept park and trail dedication
fees for the Minger Subdivision in lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction. One-
23
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
.--,
third of the said park and trail cash contributions shall be paid contemporaneously with the
filing of the subdivision plat. The balance, calculated as follows, shall be paid at the time
building permits are issued. Rate in effect for residential single family property when a
building permit is issued minus the amount previously paid. Do you need the amounts in
there too?
Hoffman: No. It's nice to have...you should include something about the easement and if we
want construction of that trail.
Andrews: To read back a little bit, prior to where he started there.
Berg: I don't have any idea where to put it I'm a good reader.
Andrews: On the front of the page it talks about the trail connection. If you would add that
to your motion, then we'd be okay.
Berg: The second sentence for the trail comprehensive plan?
Andrews: Flip it over Fred.
Berg: I would add to the motion the applicant would prefer to dedicate, that the 20 foot
easement be dedicated on the westerly edge of Lot 17 for trail purposes. Sorry I'm so dense.
....."
Andrews: Would you like to recommend that that trail be actually constructed?
Berg: That's a good idea. I'd like to recommend also that that trail be constructed.
Lash: And to allow for a buffer?
Berg: And allow for a buffer. You got a crayon so I can write this down?
Meger: I'd second that motion.
Berg: Don't ask me to repeat it please.
Andrews: A motion's been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion?
Berg moved, Meger seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to
accept park and trail dedication fees for the Minger Subdivision in lieu of parkland
24
...."
IfI1"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
dedication and/or trail construction. One-third of the said park and trail cash
contributions shall be paid contemporaneously with the filing of the subdivision plat.
The balance, calculated as follows, shall be paid at the time building permits are issued:
rate in effect for residential single family property when a building permit is issued
minus the amount previously paid. A 20 foot trail easement will be dedicated on the
westerly edge of Lot 17 for trail purposes with the applicant allowing for a buffer. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL: HARSTAD COMPANIES TO SUBDIVIDE
35.83 ACRES OF PROPERTY INTO 38 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS LOCATED ON
PROPERTY ZONED RSF. RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED
NORTH OF KINGS ROAD AND WEST OF MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY. THE
OAKS AT MINNEW ASHT A.
Public Present:
Name
Address
,.....
Paul Harstad
Larry & Nancy Wenzel
Janet Carlson
Sue Morgan
2191 Silver Lake Road, New Brighton
6900 Minnewashta Parkway
4141 Kings Road
4031 Kings Road
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: Thank you Todd. Is there a representative of the developer here?
Paul Harstad: Mr. Chairman, members of the commission, I'm Paul Harstad of Harstad
Companies. I'm pleased to report that this time we have far more favorable news than
previously. We'd prefer to see it this way too. I guess Todd and Kate and our company
have had some good talks during the last month and I think we've made a lot of progress. I
believe we've laid the thing out in a good fashion that is favorable to we think everyone. I
think it will work out real well. I'm glad that Todd showed some of the changes proposed at
last week's Planning Commission. There would be 2 additional lots which would reduce the
size of your park and as I understand it, improve the configuration and make the design
probably a little bit easier. I know originally you were shooting for approximately 10 acres
and now it looks as if that's more or less what it would become. That would also increase
the amount that we would dedicate since we have 2 more lots. So the numbers that you see
,.....
25
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
....,;
will probably improve somewhat Also the pond on the original, or the latest preliminary
plat, the pond was shown in your park and as Todd mentioned, and his report mentions, that
would be either an outlot or an extension of those lots that abut that. So we don't have any
problem with any of those issues. I think those are very good design changes. There's one
other thing and that is the land to the south of Kings Road. Originally the map that Todd put
up earlier, that had shown 2 lots. That design was done by the previous engineer. Previous
planner and they knew at the time that that was probably unlikely. They were relatively
certain they could get 1 lot out of there but without having had a wetland delineation and
looking closer at the DNR rules, they weren't sure. So they brought it in as two. Well as
soon as we reconfigured the project, we did a wetland delineation. It's the dotted line on that
map and that shows a square footage upland of I think it's about 16,000 or 17,000 square feet
which does not meet minimum requirements for a lot within the 1,000 foot line of the DNR
protected wetland. If you have any further questions on that, I can comment But the DNR
does have some specific rules but they also have some leeway as to the actual size. As I
understand it, the city of Chanhassen has maybe Todd can help me on this, but has agreed to
follow the DNR rules. The point I'm trying to make here is that while they do have a 20,000
square foot rule for the lots, we spoke with them this week and they indicated that there is
some room for leeway on that as long as the average lot is in excess of, or is 20,000 square
feet or more. And they took one look at this project and said, oh it looks great. I can't
imagine you having a problem. For some of those lots where the 1,000 foot line goes ......"
through a lot, let's say only a quarter or so of the lot is within the 1,000 foot line. The DNR
may allow to lower the square footage of that lot. So the point I'm trying to make here is
that while it is still possible that we could get a lot out of that, it's probably not in the best
interest of the general public or us. The reason it wouldn't be in the best interest for us is
because it's kind of a long shot. There's no sense in trying to twist arms at the DNR level
and certainly at the city level. We found that doesn't work real well. But I would like to
open for suggestions the possibility of considering that land in your fmal park design. I don't
know if you would have any use for it If you could use it as parking or as, whether or not
you could even get access to Lake St. Joe but we would be more than happy to consider that
in the final design. Other than that I have no questions and I'm willing to answer any
questions you have.
Lash: You know I think I was looking down on this when I should have been looking up
because I don't know where you're talking about Can you point it out on there?
Hoffman: These two lots here. They extend all the way to the south of Lake St. Joe.
Lash: Aren't there houses already there?
Resident: No, they are sheds. Animal sheds.
26
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I"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Lash: Oh. So these little rectangle shapes on here aren't existing houses?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: Okay.
Andrews: But they're part of this plat? Or they intended to be part of this plat?
Hoffman: That property is part of the plat. What it's eventual use would be is undetermined
at this time.
Paul Harstad: When we purchased this from Heritage Development, the plat had shown two
lots there. We more or less assumed that that would be the case. Well at least one. Well
now we're finding it probably won't get any. However it's still part of our purchase
agreement so we are committed to purchasing it. So I don't know that we have a use for it.
If we can't use it as parkland, then we would probably do some fmagling in hopes of getting
either a variance from the city or approval from the DNR or whatever is required. I'm
certain that it's not worth our time, especially if the park commission...
",,-.
Andrews: I'm not sure if we'd prefer to have in lieu of the other land.
Paul Harstad: Oh, up on the north side?
Andrews: Yeah. Because we want to have the largest piece possible.
Lash: You're talking about in addition to what we already, in addition to the plan?
Paul Harstad: Right.
Lash: Right.
Paul Harstad: I know the designs we've had didn't show anything south of Kings Road.
Andrews: How wide of a frontage are we talking about there, just to give me an idea of
scale here?
Paul Harstad: If you have a ruler. I think it's about 200, maybe 220 feet of frontage and
then the wetland line extends back anywhere from, I want to say 75 feet to about 100 feet
where it hits the property south. So it's about 60,000 square feet. That's my rough guess.
I'd have to calculate that out precisely.
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
......-/
Andrews: I hate to get into a discussion about those two lots because as far as I want to say,
I think it's just going to bog us down here.
Paul Harstad: It's not worth fmagling anything at this point. I don't know if in the future we
could come back and make a request.
Hoffman: You can use it all as part of the park plan.
Paul Harstad: My interest is getting the whole...
Andrews: That's our interest too. Does anybody on the commission have any questions for
the developer? If not, is there anyone from the audience here that would like to speak about
this development? Please step forward and state your name and address for the record.
Sue Morgan: My name is Sue Morgan and I live at 4031 Kings Road, which is this property
right here. That interfaces the park here and also this property that was under discussion by
Mr. Harstad. Something that came up in the City Council meeting was that, if this is going
to be a holding pond, there needs to be somewhere for this pond to drain. Right now all this
area is draintile and it drains across our property into Lake St. Joe. If this is going to be a
holding pond for all of these properties, it needs to drain somewhere into Lake St. Joe and
they are proposing that it drains into this area here. So in that case this would not be
buildable because they're thinking about putting some type of drainage pipe which then leads
this into Lake St. Joe for runoff. So just to point that out. That it just can't fit here. It has
to go somewhere. Also, our concern is that we do live here, that this situation be taken care
of as far as drainage. Right now as I mentioned, this field drains across our property into
Lake St. Joe and they seem to have resolved it by putting a pond here and draining it around
here but we just want to make sure that that happens. Because without permission from us,
Paul Harstad... Also I have a couple of questions about access into the park area. You
mentioned that there would be access here and they mentioned of access from Lake
Minnewashta. Is there going to be an entrance? Is there going to parking? How do people
get into this park? Where do they park when they come here?
...",
Hoffman: Chairman, we can only comment on the planning process which typically takes
place. You can at least mention where the access is shown on the concept plan.
Andrews: I don't recall but what's typical of plans I guess is that neighborhood input is
always solicited in design of the park and traffic concerns are normally the number one
concern of any park that's being considered for construction.
28
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II""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Sue Morgan: Okay, so at this point it's too early to consider that?
Lash: We have a concept plan in our packet but that's basically all it is is a concept plan. It
could be open to all kinds of changes between now and when it's finished. But at this point
in time what the concept plan shows, it's a somewhat small parking lot that would be
accessed out to Kings Road just off from the...Kings Road entrance. And like Jim said, this
is something that we will work with the neighbors on...and making it something that will be
enjoyable for all.
Sue Morgan: So the actual structure of the park is something that, you guys are still...
Andrews: That's correct
Sue Morgan: And what is the status of the lakeshore area of this across Minnewashta? I've
heard various opinions as to whether it's big enough for a beach or too small for a beach or,
do you know what's happening in that area at all?
Andrews: I know that's being considered as part of the park purchase. I think in our
~ preliminary discussions we have looked at that as maintained as passive use. There's not
enough adequate access for a safe swimming beach. We couldn't get emergency vehicles in
there. There's not enough parking so the intent was not to develop that as an active use
beach.
Sue Morgan: Like a bench and you just sit...?
Andrews: That's somewhat open. There could be a canoe rack or two but.
Lash: I don't recall that conversation.
Andrews: Yeah, we talked about that some.
Roeser: Yeah, I'm sure we did too. I don't think it was ever considered as.
Lash: I guess I always kind of had it envisioned that there'd be a small swimming beach
there. Public access to the lake. That's, as you can tell, I don't...
Andrews: And that again would be part of the discussion about the park design. I mean we
weigh the pros and cons. If there's going to be, I don't know, how many houses in this
development but if you put a small swimming beach, then there's the complaints it's not big
enough. It's almost better not to have any beach than to have one that's too small from our
I"""
29
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
.....,/
regulating efforts.
Sue Morgan: And then one other question. Do the people in the development, do they have
priority over the use of the services of the utilities?
Andrews: No.
Lash: Were you here earlier?
Sue Morgan: I just wanted to make sure. And how would this be designated? Is it a
community park or a neighborhood park?
Lash: I believe this would be designated neighborhood, wouldn't it Todd?
Andrews: It's a large neighborhood park.
Hoffman: Yeah, that's correct. It will have some differences in that requests are already
coming in to treat it a little bit more like a community park because of it's location and
because of it's isolation from the rest of the community. For these people west of Lake
Minnewashta. At least a percentage of them that live there have their own community sized -'
park like the tennis court policy and ballfield policy. Those type of things. They would like
to be treated a little bit more as a community park and from that respect what you actually
label it. I certainly think this will end up in the neighborhood park category.
Andrews: I kind of look at this sort of similar to North Lotus Lake Park which has some
community uses and some neighborhood uses.
Berg: Meadow Green's the same way.
Andrews: Same thing, yeah.
Sue Morgan: Just a personal concern in that we are directly across from the park and a big
percentage of the park. That some privacy be maintained as far as trees, vegetation. I don't
know if there's going to be tall lights or anything of that sort on the ballfields.
Andrews: No. This would not be, we would not consider lighting fields on the neighborhood
park and the preliminary plat does show preservation of trees and foliage where possible.
Lash: And if you look at the concept plan that Paul just showed, that there's vegetation...and
that's pretty much right across the street from your houses.
30
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"'. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Sue Morgan: There's just one little area that...we stretch almost from here to here and there
doesn't seem to be any...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Andrews: We've planted trees at North Lotus to add vegetation too so we're pretty ambitious
about that.
Sue Morgan: At the Council meeting last week, there's still some dispute about Kings Road
and how it's going to be developed and where the lines are and...and it looks as though a lot
of the trees that are existing will be taken out when that road is developed. Off of the north
side of the road so the vegetation would have to be put back in. I just wanted to make sure...
and that's all I had to say. Thanks.
Larry Wenzel: I'm Larry Wenzel. I live at 6900 Minnewashta Parkway and own property at
6880 Minnewashta Parkway. That property is just, where you see the red cul-de-sac coming
in, that would be on our property. Everything south from the park would be the property.
We have no objection to the park. Kids do have to have a place to play and it's good if we
'" do have some insurance out there for potential people problems can come from it. One major
concern is how the south property line will be buffered from the park and potentially west
back from the comer. The major area of concern to us is that of the beach area. So that we
wouldn't get people that would be migrating or children who would be migrating onto our
beach property and potentially out onto the docks. It'd have to be something I assume there
to control that. The park will be maintained by the city of Chanhassen I assume as far as
clean-up and police patrol for parties and all that as a potential problem. We have found,
unfortunately we have that big Chinese wall in front of our place that we inherited when they
widened the road and...and it's a place for beer cans and pop cans that are flipped up and trail
walkers, an easy place to throw stuff out of sight which is kind of a surprise to us but, so
obviously they'd have to have some type of a collection control or that type of thing in the
park. I guess the, not understanding what your potential was for the beach, we have some
concerns about it being used as a swimming beach and how kids would cross the road. We
didn't know how that would be accommodate so that it would be safe...there. I guess at the
time that the park would be open is also somewhat of our concerns. We understand now it's
sunrise to sunset. Something like that that's going to be established. So it's not at night?
Andrews: That's correct
Lash: They all close at 10:00.
,....
31
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
.......",
Larry Wenzel: Okay. Being that this park potentially is going to be having a lot of
residences around it, close by, are they planning any kind of emergency phone service for 911
there?
Andrews: Again, that would be something that's discussed when we design that final park
design.
Larry Wenzel: The final. I think it's something that should be considered. It's going to be a
relatively large park. It's got about 10 acres and a lot of potential opportunities for somebody
to get hurt playing ball or whatever.
Andrews: There's a large number of active uses planned there. My guess is that there would
be a public phone put in.
Larry Wenzel: Yeah. Someway somehow that people can get, you know it's kind of a catch
22. You're sitting on a fme line because there's a certain amount of positive things in the
park and then there's always the nervous reaction that you get from people that are next to it
being if you know the sun sets, who is there. What's going on? And everybody gets a little
spooky today. We didn't have that problem years ago. Those are the basic questions that I
had I believe. The cul-de-sac. coming into the back side for future development of the... was .....,i
kind of a surprise to us. That certainly is the Planning Commission and not the Park
Commission. I don't know how they came up with that potential concept. But that's all our
concern. Thank you.
Andrews: Is there anyone else that wishes to speak about this development from the
audience? If not, why don't we start with Fred's end and we'll just work our way down with
any comments we want to add about this and then we'll proceed.
Berg: I don't have any specific comments other than I'm very happy that we were able to
work something out. It's nice to see that we've come to an accommodation here where it
appears that most parties are at least satisfied and have most, if not all of their needs met.
Manders: I guess one main comment I would have is the usage of that property south of
Kings Road I think is pretty minimal and I don't think that the commission would be real
interested in it.
Andrews: Ron.
Roeser: Well just that the people who are concerned are living out in that area. We're a
long ways from finishing this park. We have to buy it first and then you certainly will be
32
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.,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
consulted as far as the development of the park is concerned. You'll hear from us.
Andrews: I agree that we're years away. When this purchase goes through, we're going to
be so broke we won't be able to...This is really a good example I think of a win-win and I
want to thank Harstad for coming back to us with this. I think this is such an improvement
over where we started, both in design and also cooperation. I really think we've come an
awful long ways so I'm excited to see this coming to fruition.
Huffman: I do, I'm brand new, about 3 months, 2 months on this commission and don't
know everything that you've gone through but your comments and your concerns about what
will go onto the park, the people there, I know these people are very concerned about that
and you'll take an active part in it so we appreciate you coming tonight and we'll be right
along with you every step of the way.
Meger: I don't have much more to add.
Lash: I too am glad this is getting wrapped up but I do have a couple questions, I think more
for Todd...where it talks about the potential pond is located in the park which will result in a
"..... neL.I don't understand that.
Hoffman: The city park property will also add a liability for drainage, for storm water
drainage so the park, the calculations were made and where it's draining to the pond which is
to be constructed as a part of the development, that we are benefitting from that. We have
calculations through the engineering department which we charge applicant's, you know if
they've added to a pond which the city maintains, this would be a reserve of that scenario.
We would owe them and providing for that benefit. So where they're first taking a look at it,
we have not put the time into making those calculations prematurely but that would certainly
be a case when you move to preliminary plat and final plat.
Lash: Okay. And then my other question was, when it comes time for this...demolition of
the existing buildings, I would certainly like the commission to be involved in that..
Hoffman: Sure.
Roeser: You want the round house?
Andrews: Are we ready for a motion then? Let's move ahead here. Well this one probably
should be paraphrased being that we have potentially an A or a B option here of the fmal plat
so. I guess I can do it. I would move that the Park and Rec Commission adopt the
preliminary plat. That we encourage the City Council and the Planning Commission to work
.,.....
33
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
--'
with the developer for final plat design. That we are requesting the acquisition of parkland,
approximately 1.52 acres to be dedicated and an additional 8.48 acres to be purchased. This
acquisition shall be a condition of the fmal plat approval and that a purchase agreement will
be negotiated by the City Attorney's office contingent upon City Council's approval. Full
park fee credit be granted as part of this condition. For trails, the acceptance of full trail
dedication fees per city ordinance is recommended. Current trail fees are $300.00 per
residential unit and also that the applicant shall construct a trail stub linking to the park
through Lots 4 and 5 off of Country Oaks Road, if that design is adapted as part of the fmal
plat, as approved by the Council.
Lash: I would second that.
Andrews: Any further discussions?
Andrews moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
that the City Council approve the preliminary plat as presented with the inclusion of the
10+ acre park. The acquisition of the park to be accomplished through park dedication
(1.52+ acres and purchase of 8.48+ acres). This acquisition shall be a condition of final
plat approval. A purchase agreement shall be negotiated by the City Attorney's office
contingent upon City Council approval. Full park fee credit ($34,200.00 on 38 homes) is ...."
to be granted as a part of this. condition. Acceptance of full trail dedication fees per city
ordinance is also recommended. Current trail fees are $300.00 per single family
residential unit. The applicant shall construct a trail stub from Country Oaks Road
through the park between Lots 4 and 5 as a part of the public improvement undertaken
in this project. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Andrews: Thank you everybody for coming on this one. I'm really happy to see this one
going through. This has been many, many years we've been waiting for on this one.
Hoffman: I would as well have to thank...property owners and thus listed Dave Headla...they
were not listed on these plans...represented by Robert Morehouse, the realtor...
REQUEST FOR STREET LIGHT. CARVER BEACH PARK.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: I guess I'm wondering, is a light going to have exactly the opposite effect they're
looking for here because now you're going to provide enough light so if people do want to
mess around, they can see a little bit better to mess around longer.
34
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"..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Roeser: Yeah but they can be seen messing around.
Hoffman: I did note that I did ask for the opinion of both the City Engineer who referred me
to Northern States Power and then Public Safety Director. Public Safety Director had a
comment which certainly can be effective on certain circumstances. But this is 5% of the
total park area so you're going to be lighting up the parking lot Once you drop below the
hill, you're back down into the dark area of the park. There are no street lights in Carver
Beach Park in any other locations.
Andrews: I just don't see how they can do this personally. It's very limited benefit, as Todd
just said. I mean you're lighting an area of about 100 square feet or a couple hundred square
feet that's visible with a light. That's my opinion. It also puts us in the position of lighting
more areas and more parks.
Berg: When I was going through it I guess I felt the opposite way in that it would
discourage I think people from parking there which would discourage them from going down
below. Otherwise they'd have to walk a considerable distance but I'm hearing now the
potential costs is what's scaring me a little bit away.
,.....
Lash: I didn't hear a potential cost for the overhead line would run.
Hoffman: Again minimal, the fIrst 100 feet of that cable gone overhead, we would receive
that free so that would be probably under $500.00 for that fIrSt. But in the opinion of the
NSP representative, it's not very attractive to string 125 foot cable from one pole draping
across the street and into your parking lot.
Berg: Well he might be selling another produce though too.
Hoffman: Well.
Lash: I guess I don't have problems with doing it...What I guess I have a problem with is a
request from one person but it has a bigger effect on people who live around there. Like you
said, there are some people who like street lights and there are some people who don't like
street lights and unless we knew for sure what would resolve the problem down there, we
could be putting in something that's going to be bothersome to 5 or 6 people on the request
of one person. So maybe, I would feel more comfortable before we took any action to fmd
out what some of the other residents down there felt. If they have a problem with a street
light, we need to know that before we would move ahead with it. And if they all think it
would be a good idea, we need to know that too.
,....
35
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
...;
Roeser: I think you should encourage them to call the police every time there's a problem
down there and fmd out how often this really happens you know. Sometimes it's probably
not as serious as they think it is. But if it is, if they have to call the police every week or
two, then it is a problem and then maybe we should look at it again and decide. It shouldn't
be, you know why don't we check with the public safety department and see how it's going.
Tell those people to call the police.
Hoffman: It's not the fIrst time that I've talked with this resident. Obviously they're directly
across...the park and each time I discuss it with them, I encourage them to, as you noted in
their letter. They indicated that they don't call the police every time it occurs and it's
difficult to judge...exactly what those incidents are and how bothersome they may be.
Lash: I guess I'd be interested in hearing more about it. Getting also specifIcally a copy of
the calls that have been made and how many times the police have been called there.
Roeser: And what happens and what's going on.
Lash: If it happens 3 times a year. If it happens in the summer. 3 times in the summer or if
it happens 30 times in the summer, that's going to give us an idea too of how much.
Andrews: How about if we try this. That we gather that data. Send a letter to like the 5
adjoining property owners north and south with a scheduled agenda night and see what we
attract. If they're not motivated enoughto come in and say we really are interested in this.
Or we're very much opposed to it, then I think it's a non issue to me.
....."
Lash: Or encourage them to at least call you and tell you how they feel.
Andrews: Yeah. Is that satisfactory? Okay. I'd like to jump off the agenda here and
apologize to Connie, who I still see sitting here. My intention was that I'd like to see more
information brought to us about the affect on your property. I don't know, in talking to the
other commission members, I think we would need some time to either go down there and
look at it or have some photographs taken and I personally think it would take our own
personal time to go down there and look at what it's like. So I'd like to put it on a future
agenda for your item as well. Is that acceptable? Is one month enough time or do we need
more than one month to get down there to look at it?
Berg: That should be more than enough time.
Andrews: Alright, let's put it on for next month again. Thank you. I'm sorry I kept you
waiting. Can we jump ahead for Fred here? Would that be okay and we'll come back.
36
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,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Let's jump ahead to item 8 here so that, we'll come back. Or item 9, yes. That's what I
meant. Item 9.
SPECIAL REPORT. FRED HOISINGTON. VISION 2002. COMMUNITY CENTER
SITE. HOISINGTON-KOEGLER GROUP. RED-E-MIX SITE.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Fred Hoisington: Thank you Todd. Mr. Chair, members of the Park Board. I'd like to thank
you for the opportunity to be here. It's a little earlier than I'm normally on the Planning
Commission agenda. They know that when I'm coming to speak to the Planning
Commission, I never get on until midnight so this is very much appreciated tonight. There
are a lot of important things that we're in the process of doing as far as Vision 2002 is
concerned and what we're doing at this point, even though we're not yet near the end.
We've got about 2 more months to run. Sometime in July before we have anything we can
put together and be ready to...in a significant fashion to the public how it wants to respond to
this plan. But, let me kind of tell you a little bit about what it's about and then I want to
show you some things and get some feedback. It's important for us to not get to a point
~ where we're ready to ask for some approvals and not have the Park Board's input in this
case. We're already been to the Senior Commission. We've been to the Chamber of
Commerce. One of the committees we again served on. We'll be going to the Planning
Commission next week. We went to HRA. The City Council so what we're doing is kind of
shopping this around and asking for suggestions and ideas and input on all aspects of all the
plan. For those, how many of you have been involved with the Vision 2002 process so far
and having some of the focus group sessions? We've had 3 of those and we've had some
fairly good participation there. Not as much as we had hoped we would get but nonetheless a
lot of people have had input. And then we've had an, what we call an ad hoc committee that
has met 5 times. They have at least 1 or 2 times more to meet before they'll be ready to
kind of sign off on this and suggest something to each one of the boards and commissions.
But here is what it's all about. The purpose of Vision 2002 is to create a shared vision for
the city center. It's as simple as that. Now as you know it's not as easy to do because from
the very earliest beginnings of redevelopment that has occurred here, there have been disputes
over some of the things that have taken place. And there have been corrections made in
some of the street and some of the streetscape and those sorts of things. All for the better I
think. So we want to make sure that when we finish the downtown, which pretty much has
to be done before the turn of the century, that it's right and that we have agreement and that
people can share that vision and we think we're a long ways toward that end. There are a
number of unfInished parts to the city center. Just let me tell you which ones those are.
Principally public facilities but commercial is coming and we needn't be too concerned about
whether there will be enough of that. There will be more commercial than the downtown can
,....
37
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
accommodate and there will be a line still of people trying to get in. But we have a number
of public facilities that we need to be accommodated in some fashion and you already know
that because you go to some of them. One of them happens to be the post office. The post
office currently has about 3,300 square feet and it needs twice that amount of space cm:rently,
just to run the operation that's it running today. The building was never designed for the
capacities that are expected to run through that building today. Really the post office could
use as much as 10,000 square feet or 3 times what it has by the turn of the century and now
we think there are going to be some major changes in the way the postal service runs also
between now and then so that might be pushing a little bit but nonetheless, most of you know
what kind of changes we're seeing there. Another public facility that we're trying to resolve
is the library which all of you know also has a deficient space. There are times when this
library has tons of people and they're overflowing into this space and that's good. There's a
shared use opportunity here that is important and that we expect maybe to continue into the
future. But we need to address that because the library will be a...to this community and
library space or the demand for the use of a library is increasing at about 15% per year rate.
Now that's not going to continue at that rate because libraries are also going to change. But
at least there is a need to address the one we have because it only has 2,600 square feet and
that's way too small for what they'll need in the future. Another facility is senior housing
and the Senior Commission has been very active in looking at the number of locations in the
city center and we've been looking at many of those same ones and we have I think reached
some accord with the Senior Commission. Where senior housing probably ought to go. And
what we're trying to do is steer most all of these uses to non-retail locations because we don't
have much retail left. And some of the things you'll see in newsletters and in the larger
scaled drawings do show some of those facilities in those kinds of locations. Retail but we're
gradually trying to pull those back out of there because of the deficiency of retail space
today. And finally, the community center. Community center which has been turned down
twice and at this point I'm not even really able to defme. I don't know where the community
center of Chanhassen will be. If you were to ask me if it were to be built today, what it's
defmition might be, Todd and I can talk a little bit about that but frankly until the folks out
there vote a third time, the chances are fairly good that none of will know what that .
community center is. Now we don't think that's important to what we're doing right now.
What we've been asked to do is locate it. If there is to be a community center in
Chanhassen, and the focus group people told us that one of the important building blocks in
the city center ought to be community center. So we've looked at a number of different
locations and I will tell you a little bit about where we've settled at this point. Now about 2
or 3 years ago there were ample dollars to deal with all of these things. It appeared in the
way of tax increment That's not the case today. As most of you know in reading the papers
and so forth and...dollars are less available today than they were 2 or 3 years ago. ...go
through bond issues and if the public says no, we need to be concerned about it but if we
don't have the locations for them identified in advance, we'll close options. We won't have
38
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
those doors open to us in the future. So that's one of the major reasons that we've involved
here is in the face of limited resources, which are we going to build ftrst. Which can we
afford and how can we build or provide for each one of these needed facilities in the future.
And then we're going to be seeking public support. We're going to be doing another
newsletter. Not quite like this one. One with some explanation. This one doesn't stand very
well on it's own because it's an intermediate stage. And then the HRA and Park Board and
City Council have to move ahead with...make all these things happen. So let me tell you a
little bit about some of the elements that are of importance to you. We know that the whole
city center is of importance to you but these are the things that have been talked about in the
past. City Center Park. The park that has been discussed as taking place in front of City
Hall. It's still part of our concept. We're not quite sure how you feel about that and what
the Park Board's response might be to that but let me say that the city center park would tend
to be a smaller kind of urban park. More hard surface. At least that's the way we envision it
today with something that may deftne the street. Create an enclosure. In a sense but not meet
for large groups. It would tend to be more something that you would build a city hall
complex around rather than a large park facility. Another park already exists and that's the
school park. And we see that as a very important part of the future city center and we expect
perhaps over some period of time that it might change if the school use were to change but
~ that at least in the short term, it would continue to be used for more athletic types of facilities
and perhaps evolve in later years into something that would be a bit less active. A little more
passive but part of the park is already like that so it isn't like it's a major change from what's
, there today. Another park is Heritage Square where we have a very urban park currently.
Just to the east of the Pauly's and that park we would see expanding modestly. A little bit to
the west, and I'd better define the west edge because Pauly's won't always be there you
know. There's another 18 months to run on the lease. The new lease which means that
Pauly's will be there perhaps that long, unless they fmd another location in the meantime. If
they do, then of course that site will be cleaned up and the HRA already owns it. So the
tables will...The A VR site, and I'm going to show you something. I hate to call it a plan
because it's not but I want to show you some thinking that we've put into that because we're
talking about a number of different concepts for that and fmally the community center. I
want to talk about a little bit tonight. But I'd like to concentrate kind on the last two and
spend some time on the community center because that's kind of an important part of this
whole concept. If the public is willing to support it. The locations that we've considered for
a community center, at least when we started out in this process, were the Frontier site or
what you might term Filly's site. Where it was turned down the first time. And the reason
we felt at least reasonably comfortable throwing that into the inventory was this. That one of
the reasons it was turned down was because of Filly's. And of course Filly's isn't anything
today like it was 4 years ago. So we don't have a serious conflict with that location.
However, one of the things that some of the people on the ad hoc committee still carried
around was this negative feeling about that location. So after considering it for a period of
,-.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
-"
time and kind of going through the initial evaluation of it, we concluded that it ought to be
dropped. We weren't willing to go back and revisit that location because it simply didn't
appear to us that the public was willing to support a community center in that lOCation. It
would have been nice for this reason. That we would have had a way to get from, bring
people back behind those buildings. Have a destination type use back there and that's been
one of the difficulties we've had in the past, is trying to fmd a way to get people to come
around to the back side and actually create sort of a front on the back. Another location that
we have given a lot more consideration and would be one that would put the community
center as part of this complex, not unlike the second referendum when it was on the school
site south and there was a strong linkage between City Hall, the elementary school and shared
facilities and a very good concept as a matter of fact. What we concluded in recent times
however is that this site will not accommodate everything that will be asked of. We cannot
put a library for example, the city hall, a senior center, a park and a community center on this
site unless, you can't. I don't want to say never but what we can, what we concluded is that
you have to put 300 parking spaces underground in order to be able to do that and it would
cost about a million six and we could quite see people of Chanhassen paying a million six to
put parking underground and therefore felt is there was vacant land and appropriate locations
elsewhere, that was a better choice than trying to deal with putting it all in one location. An
exciting concept. I get goosebumps over thinking about how urban and how neat a complex
like that could be. But it's something that would be typically more likely to be built in """"'"
Minneapolis or in one of the first tier suburbs and is not likely to be built in the city of
Chanhassen. So we've kind of concluded that that may not be the best location for that kind
of facility. And the third location that we have given the most consideration to, but I have
to...this very carefully because I'm under some pressure on this particular one to make sure
that everybody understands what this means. The third one is some condemnation of the
Eckankar site, the Lake Ann site and perhaps the Gorra, who...to the west. Anyone of
those sites could accommodate a community center, which we would think of in that location
as being somewhat larger than it would were it right in the city center itself. We really like
the Eckankar site because what it does is it's creates sort of a westerly anchor for a
community center, should it be built and we'd...great sense of creating an identity at the west
end of what we define as the city center. Eckankar doesn't want it there. Probably we'll
have to tell them...one square inch of their property and they told us that. In fact I got a call
last night about 5:00 as I was ready to leave the office, from their attorney wondering, had
apparently gotten...and he was talking about a map that he had or that they had that I didn't
know they had. So I didn't know what map they could possibly be talking about at that point
but today I know, since everybody else knows, and so I am...to at least explain that and what
I would explain to them once again is that we aren't necessarily intending to press yet there
to the point where we have to go to court to do it but that we still think that's the best
location and that we do not expect to see a community center built for the next 5 years
frankly. I do not think that we'll see anything of that nature for 5 years anyway. The need is
40
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,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
here. I'm convinced that the need is here but I'm not sure the will and the resources are here
currently to want to do that And if it were to happen sooner than later, I suspect we may
have...cost before we pressed it on the Eckankar site. If it goes into Lake Ann, we may be
faced with loosing ballfields, and that's a concern to us at this point We don't have an over
abundance of ballfields to begin with so these are a serious concern. And on the Gorra piece,
we know Mr. Gorra doesn't care for us much either so it's one of those things that doesn't
seem to fit but let me tell you that we're tending towards the west end of the city center and
that's kind of where we're hoping that we'll be able to anchor the city center at some
manner, form and the closer we get to CR 17, the better. That's where we'd like to be able
to put it. So we're still struggling with that We just don't want to disrupt the whole
community and end up with a war over where that's going to be when we don't know that
it's going to be built for a long period of time either. Again, as I indicated, we don't really
know what it will be but if it's built today, it will be different than if it's built 5 years from
now. I'm certain of that..expect that kind of change to occur. Do you have any questions,
comments, suggestions...
Andrews: Is the Filly's site really a closed issue completely? Because I know the Planning
Commission and the Highway 5 and lots of groups have looked at that property and a lot of
,..., them think that the only use that can be supported there would be some sort of a civic use.
Lash: There was a plan done about a year ago or whatever that.
Andrews: HRA did that one.
Lash: And it really redid Filly's to the extent that I don't think the level of concern of the
residents would be what it was in the past
Fred Hoisington: I agree. I...in that case. On the other hand, you should know that the
Bloomberg properties' interest do have a plan that will be coming forth fairly soon for
renovation on the existing bowling center. It will be a much significant improvement over
what's there today and given the absence, at least immediately of dollars through tax
increment to press that issue or stop that and press the community center issue is probably not
likely. A few years ago they were willing to do that. Now they're really not able to do that.
So as long as...wants to work and as long as there's a need for commercial or retail space,
I'm not sure that we would press them anymore. If that were kind of at a point where we're
saying that would not be possible.a
Lash: Are you at liberty to say what's going to be involved in that development?
,...
Fred Hoisington: Well let me say that it is, it would be much in keeping with the
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
...""
entertainment concept that we see for that whole lot. It could have a restaurant and theater or
theaters.
Lash: Movie theaters?
Fred Hoisington: Movie theaters. It could have sort of a small amount of retail as part of it
and I think the marketplace is working in favor of that for the first time in a long time. I
think they've happen to have a lot of interest. A lot more interest than you've seen so it's
probably going to happen this time.
Andrews: I guess the only other comment I had was, is that we consider Lake Ann to be
holy ground for the park board.
Fred Hoisington: I understand that. I feel the same way but that's the way you have to kind
of look at that.
Lash: You'd have to put a parking lot underground.
Berg: Yeah, before you take one ballfield, you'll have to do it underground.
Manders: This may be pretty premature but do you have some general concept for the
amount of space that this community center would require? Acre? 2 acres? 10 acres? What
are you looking Jit1
...,,;I
Fred Hoisington: Well Todd and I talked about that. If, when we were at least
contemplating it on the two of the more urban sites of course we...to the small space as
possible. If it were to be built where land is available, then we think we would probably
build a different kind of community center in that case. We might think in terms of it being
let's say 30,000 to 50,000 square feet...and that it would, depending on whether an outdoor
park is an element of it, it could take from 10 to 20 acres total. So if it were kind of
anchoring the west end and had an outdoor park, we could expect to use at least...Let me go
on to A VR and talk a little bit about what we're doing there.
Andrews: Yeah, please.
Todd Hoffman made a statement that wasn't picked up clearly on the tape.
Fred Hoisington: The interesting thing is that Mark is, Mark and Bruce are the...I'm not the
park people but I'm...so you're saddled with a person that's not really best able to talk about
parks but all I'm going to do is give you some very preliminary thinking about what we're
42
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,.....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
kind of talking about as far as A VR is concerned. Because it's an important element. You
all did look at your brochures or your newsletters and you did see the plan. The overall plan.
Let me just explain a couple things here. There are 3, there are going to be 3 important
entries to the city center here. The 3 are at the existing or new TII 10 1 and Highway 5 or
the Apple Valley Red-E-Mix site. The second one will be the Market Boulevard entrance and
. that will probably be the most important entrance to the city center because it's kind of a
crossroads. It picks up TII 5 but it also picks up TII 10 1 to the south. And the third one
will be County Road 17. The Council has given us very specific directions about those 3
entrances. They said those are the only 3 they want us to deal with as far as entry is
concerned and they only want anything that has sort of signage or monument, and I hate to
even use that term, at Market Boulevard and they don't want...3 years ago. Now these 3
areas, we're expecting the 3 entries will have 3 different themes and maybe I can kind of
point out what some of those, what those themes are. On the west end, or County Road 17,
you'll note that we are talking about an oak theme. In other words, we're drawing in these
cases from a natural environment for the meaning of entry to the city center. As opposed to
contriving an artificial entry we're looking at creating entries that have already existing
meaning here. And if for those of you who know the top of the hill, the James property up
on top of the hill, and where the housing project has been approved and so forth, and where
there are townhouses already under construction, there is, it's a high hill and it falls off on the
back side down to the knoll or down into a swale with oaks lining that entire edge. And then
there are some wonderful oaks up on the top, one of which is not going to survive but
because it's jacked way up in the air and there's been about a 10 to 15 foot cut around it,
which is unfortunate but it probably was the only, I'm not sure why they saved the tree
because I don't think there's any chance for it live there. But what we're trying to do is
draw from that area out to Highway 5 and CR 17, that whole idea of an oak entry at the west
end. The center or the Market Boulevard entrance is already, already has 3 wetlands around
3 of the quadrants of the intersection. Of course you know one with the fountain in it. The
one to the south is simply a cattail marsh and then the one on the northeast corner there is a
sort of an excavated pond that was for drainage purposes and there is no wetland on the
southeast quadrant. But what we're talking about and what Bill Morrish talked about here
was sort of the wetland circle. Completing that circle and actually even embracing in some
manner or form a fourth intersection or the fourth quadrant of the intersection and creating
the circle of wetlands around that intersection. At this one there would be some sort of
monument or signage to let people know that they've somehow arrived at the city center.
The east end, on the other hand, is drawing from the maple that exists in the residential area
to the east of St. Hubert's. And as you drive into the city of Chanhassen sometime, look over
there and at least during this time of year, or during the whole summer, what you principally
see there is maple. Maple trees. You don't see many houses. You see trees. And that's an
important entry statement to make and what we're going to do is draw again on the natural
features there into this intersection. Sort of the center entry concept of the maples that
43
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
-"
already exist up on the hill. So those are the 3 vegetation themes that we're talking about at
the intersections. Let me talk more about the Apple Valley Red-E-Mix. The site was
purchased by the city because of it's very poor access to TH 101. The rebuilding of TH 101
or relocation of it to this current location, left us with or has a right-in, right-out opportunity
right at this point just north of Highway 5 and just south of the railroad tracks but as you can
see there is an island in there and what, the fellow who owns the Red-E-Mix plant told us
was, I can get those trucks to make U turns around that..and I think you can. If you can
figure out a way to do that Our concern was that it was not going to be safe. It was a bad
idea and the only way we could make that right was to actually buy the property and were
very successful in buying it for an expensive but right price and I won't tell you why that it
was the right price. The concept here then, and this is where the maple stands exist. Is to
draw this into this intersection and to create in this park the circular groves of maples. That's
the Morrish concept The original Highway 5 broad brush concept was to create the circular
groves in this area. So we're likely to see a circular grove here, one here, one in this comer
and another one up here and then we want to be able to penetrate that more with prairie type
materials inbetween. So that what you get is when you come down the highway, you get this
view of trees, overstory vegetation. But when you get to a certain point you'll be able to see
or penetrate through that. Again, this entire thing will tend to be more of a passive park.
Would actually have a trail connection through it Perhaps grabbing a hold of some of the
, concepts that Morrish picked up west of town. The hedge row concept perhaps blending into -'"
this park as such and then all the connecting, the pedestrian bridge crossing here and the
parking in a fashion at the end of the cul-de-sac which would provide people with at least a
limited amount of access into this park. It's not a park where we expect large numbers of
people to congregate. We don't want them there in large numbers but it's a linkage. It's a
connection to a lot of different places in the community and therefore it's an important one to
allow access to but not expect that we'll have a 100 people there because if you do, we have
no way to get them there other than parking on the street. The idea here is to screen
completely or as nearly completely as we can the Hanus building and so what we will have is
a succession of vegetation from the circular grove, a circular grove of maple and then we will
have a circular grove of coniferous vegetation that will be on a slope up there. It will
actually be a berm so when you come down the highway you will not see the Hanus building
in the future. Now when the roof is built, you'll probably see the top of the roof. But if it's
not built, for the most part you won't see that building so the...exposure it has today to the
highway will not exist in the future. You'll still see the end of the Hanus building when you
come down here but this will have a very intense screening and all of the messy stuff that
occurs in that parking lot now will be screened in the future. You'll see...because I suspect
we're still going to have but I don't think that's a problem. That would be an acceptable
kind of, but that's what we're thinking about as far as this intersection is concerned. It's sort
of a natural treatment. Nothing contrived. More growing on the features that exist here and
creating a neat entry to the east end of the gateway to Chan.
44
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Andrews: It looks good. It's a touch piece of property, I know that. The railroad cuts it
right in half so. Is there going to be a pedestrian crossing for the railroad track through the
park area?
Fred Hoisington: Well what we're thinking, with limited dollars I'm a little concerned about
whether we'll ever see it. At least the idea is to allow or to encourage some sort of crossing
right here. The grade is right for it. It doesn't take the acreage that it takes to get across the
highway. It would be a relatively small bridge and yes, we're expecting to link up the West
78th Street instead of having permanent access, pedestrian access here, we'd like to see it go
on 78th because it's a much more personal scale.
Lash: How much space is actually there?
Fred Hoisington: Within this area?
Lash: Yes.
Fred Hoisington: Dh gosh. This is really pretty quick and rough stuff. We've been thinking
,....., about this for a long time but we haven't really put it down on paper until the last few days.
I'm not sure what the total acreage would be. It's about 100 feet wide so if it's about 100
feet wide and it's 400-500 feet long. Maybe 4 acres. Very long and narrow 4 acres. Any
concerns?
Andrews: I think it looks, we haven't come up with anything any better, put it that way.
We've tried but I know at one time Highway 5 had talked about some sort of a garden plot
area for seniors or whatever, clubs to work on. That's no longer part of this concept?
Fred Hoisington: No. One of the things that we are, probably not gardens but one of the
things that we're thinking may occur here is, because somebody's requested it and I guess
maybe it's a good thing for you to be thinking about. Is that there could be memorial trees
planted here by...community may wish to honor someone. But it would have to be done in
accordance with a plan but nonetheless that is a possibility here. As far as actually gardens,
Jim no. We haven't anticipated that here. Seniors don't like this end of town. They don't
want to be down at this end.
Lash: It's the wrong side of the tracks.
Fred Hoisington: Well, the wrong side of the cemetery. Well what we'll do is we'll come
back to you again. As we get closer to the end of these things, we're still much in concept
form and as we get to the point where...more detail, we'll let you know and we'll talk and see
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
-'
where we go from here.
Manders: One question I have is, kind of getting back to this Highway 5 corridor idea and
kind of the notion of an entrance into the city from the west down at TH 41 and we're
talking about the city center idea here and from the east, I don't know if there's been much
discussion. It seems to me like this is probably the east entrance definition that we're trying
to build and I don't see that there's really much opportunity to go much further east
Fred Hoisington: Well no, I think of course Dell Road would be an appropriate location to
either sign or do something to let people know that they've entered Chanhassen.
Manders: Yeah but you really start defming much. Like this I think would be a real nice
definition.
Fred Hoisington: Oh yes. No question about that. I think there would be much different,
every location and it turns out to be just in the type of treatments but we were, we know
Highway 5...and we've been keeping close track of it and we were kind of instructed to begin
to think in terms of about 5 different intersections from TH 41 all the way back to Dell Road
but the CounciL.real nicely on this and we were real happy about that We'd just as soon
kind of stick with the, if something's to be done at either one of the east or west ends, that ....,i
will be a different feature and probably by somebody else.
Andrews: Thank you very much.
Fred Hoisington: Thank you for having me and we'll be coming back again when we get
something more complete.
Andrews: Alright, we'll try to move into sprint mode here because it's getting late.
REQUEST FOR FISHING' PIER. LOTUS LAKE.
Todd Hoffman gave the staff report on this item.
Andrews: I've been a frequent user of South Lotus Lake Park for wind surfmg and also
boating and that's a very congested area to try to squeeze another use at the lakefront in and
Todd and I talked a little bit before the meeting. I don't know how we could provide access
to another area there on the lakefront.
Manders: Yeah I just drove there and it is real tight.
46
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Roeser: Yeah, it'd create more demand on the parking lot by doing that.
Andrews: On the weekends you can't park there anyway for boats. You have to launch the
boat and drive the trailer back to the house and get a ride back later...but, it's a nice idea but
we don't have the space. We just don't have the space. If we're going to spend money for
the fishing pier, it should be on Lake Susan.
Lash: There is one.
Andrews: There are plenty of places to park.
Lash: Where?
Andrews: That's good then. Any other comments on this one?
Lash: There's a little fishing dock isn't there over at Carver Beach?
Hoffman: Carver Beach has a fishing dock.
I"""'-
Lash: It's not a big pier.
Hoffman: And it's not accessible to North Lotus Lake neighborhood.
Andrews: Well they can ride around Pleasant View and up and around.
Manders: What kind of a, there really isn't any other opportunity around that lake for a more
convenient access for shore fishing type.
Hoffman: Not for this half of the lake. Carver Beach Park provides all sorts of access. The
kids use it in 10 different locations along that park frontage there for fishing. There's one
particular downed tree which reaches out about 35 feet. They hang in that thing 6 at a time
and fish crappies so they're having fun on that side of the lake. On the opposite side of the
lake, due to the frontage which we own and then the wetland vegetation which is present, the
opportunity is not there. The commission is very familiar with how land locked that portion
of our community is. It's very similar to west Lake Minnewashta. They can't get anywhere
via the trails. Even if we put the access...you still can't get there from North Lotus Lake
Park.
Andrews: This is being presented as an idea. I guess we don't need to make a motion
because we're not doing anything. I think we should respond to the Battani's again that this
'"
47
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
.....,,'
doesn't appear to be practical at this time. Is that. There's about 60 feet of frontage there
that's improved and most of that's being used for the boat turn around and the ramp and then
there's a dock right there where you can put your boats while you're launching them and
that's it. I mean there's just no other room. The rest of it's brush and it's very tight. I mean
the lake narrows down there and there's just not room. If you were fishing there, you'd be
fighting with the boats every second anyway. It's bad as it is. Are we all in agreement?
Let's move on.
LAKE ANN PARK 1994 PARKING PERMIT FEES.
Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: To refresh our memory the revenue we generate out of this is about how much?
Ruegemer: As you look on the previous, that was listed on the previous page. Or the
previous item. The gate attendant report for 1993 revenues which listed.
Andrews: Oh I see it, okay.
Ruegemer: Revenues, excluding softball from last year was $14,947.00...and that was a
combination of daily use, picnics, participants coming to athletic events for adults, and that
type of use.
..J
Andrews: I don't see how we can decline that revenue.
Hoffman: You'n note that in the next column it takes away $7,800.00 of it for the wages but
those include both the attendant at Lake Susan, or excuse me...
Andrews: And I think, even if we were to drop the fee we'd still want an attendant there
anyway.
Hoffman: We've had that discussion before.
Lash: But we've got a lot more people...
Huffman: Why do you need an attendant to get into a city park?
Andrews: To just keep an eye on things basically. If there's problems, they want people to
know where they can go to get it taken care of.
48
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,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Huffman: Then you'll have people who will be using the parks or the beaches or down at the
water front or, I mean those are heavily staffed down there aren't they?
Lash: They didn't used to be.
Huffman: But they are now. Lifeguards. Concession stand. Things like that
Meger: Full access down there.
Huffman: ...go to Lake Susan, there's nobody telling me where the bathroom is there.
Berg: I think it might help to maintain a little control when you've got all the softball games
and stuff going on up above too. There's a sense that there's somebody there in charge too.
A lot of the people you're talking about are down below down by the lake. Whereas if
there's someone here, if there's a need be, there's a sense of control having this person there
with the softballers.
Huffman: A 16 year old at the gate with a book? Well I don't know, is it?
,,-. Lash: Well we've had this discussion every year.
Huffman: I'm for education here.
Lash: No, I know. You bring up a good point because we've gone around and around about
it every year and.. .hadn' t done it this year.
Huffman: I apologize. It's late Jim. I will not bring this up any farther...discussion.
Lash: Well I mean I don't think it would hard at all for us to figure, we're not going to
change it this year. I mean people already have their permits but we, but I think there are
some new people with probably new ideas and new feelings, that we could schedule it on
another night for next year. We can't change it this year.
Andrews: Well we've got to do it early but, to be honest, each year that goes by I become
more convinced that we ought not to have a fee for Lake Ann.
Manders: I would follow that, yes.
Andrews: Because I look at my own use patterns. I don't have a pass and I don't go
because I don't have a pass. I think geez, that's kind of stupid to have the nicest park in
town that I don't go to because I don't have a pass.
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
-'
Lash: And you're too cheap to buy one.
Andrews: Yeah. I mean I've got state passes and county passes but I don't have that one.
Roeser: You've got a pass for where they've got a gate attendant.
Huffman: Yeah, it's a good item for March.
Roeser: Yeah, I think so too. Let's table it until March.
Andrews: I think we want to set this on a January 1st policy date I would think so that
means it's a November item then really because it's got to be acted on. Let's move on. Item
9.
Lash: That it be tabled?
Hoffman: You might approve the 1994 fees.
Lash: Okay. I move that we approve the 1994 fees as established and that discussion takes
place on the agenda, January agenda for 1995.
~
Huffman: Second.
Lash moved, Huffman seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission set the Lake
Ann Park 1994 parking permit fees as presented and that the item be placed on an
upcoming agenda for action on January 1, 1995. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
REVIEW STONE CREEK SUBDIVISION. PARK LAND CONCEPTS.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: This again is viewed as a neighborhood park. Therefore no need for any off street
parking?
Hoffman: There's no room for it.
Andrews: Okay. It's that's simple.
Lash: So what do you want us to do? A recommendation...
50
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Hoffman: ...talk about a plan and look to the future and picture yourself in that meeting
where you were talking to the residents...what staff was recommending and would be in
essence approving at least in a very conceptual stage so we can grade the site. If you think
you're happy with this...and throw the whole works out..Jf you don't even want to consider
it, then we need to simple leave it as is and grade the park...
Lash: It's getting late and I'm getting really dense here. Are you talking about connecting
these two play areas with some kind of a slide?
Hoffman: Yes. At grade slide.
Andrews: That grading that we would be doing would be only in this active use area. We're
not going to be up on top of the hill there doing anything up there.
Hoffman: No. On top of the hill, it has the curvature of there of the road.
Andrews: And that top of the hill, I know at one time we talked about potentially some uses
on top. That option is still preserved with what we're doing tonight? Okay.
~
Hoffman: The picnic area and the tot play area would essentially be on the top side.
Lash: Is this trail going to be something that is going to functional or is it just going to be...?
Hoffman: It would be functional. It would have...throughout the entire system because we
have to cross the creek and...down there. You may have to help with the fIrst locations... It's
not going to be ADA accessible.
Jan Lash made a statement that was not picked up on the tape.
Hoffman: If you can't provide, you don't need to but if we took the, if we could provide and
we didn't, we're in trouble.
Andrews: That makes sense. Being that there's only one alternative and I don't think we're
eliminating any future action by going ahead with it, I move that we approve the Concept #3
as proposed by staff.
Roeser: Second.
Andrews: Any further discussion?
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
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Andrews moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve
Concept #3 for the Stone Creek Subdivision parkland concepts. All voted in. favor and
the motion carried.
PROGRAM REPORTS:
A. 4TH OF JULY
Jerry Ruegemer gave a update on this item and asked for any questions from the commission.
Andrews: When will you have the sign up sheets for the booths? Is that next meeting?
Ruegemer: For the trade fair?
Andrews: No, for us to work, worker bees here.
Ruegemer: I can put you down right now.
Andrews: Don't do that. Bring a list next meeting...same places we were. You guys are
doing the prize board?
...."
Berg: I like the prize board.
Roeser: I'm not touching the prize board...
Andrews: Order please. Let's move along.
Ruegemer: It's been an idea brought up in the past as far as having the Chanhassen Park and
Recreation Commission staff like a trade fair table during the trade fair and I guess I'm just
going to throw that out to see what kind of interest we have in that In possibly participating
in the 1994 trade fair for that. I know there still is tables available for that and I know I've
been discussing it, there'd be a small fee assessed to participate in that but since we are
Chamber members. So I'm just throwing that out If there's any interest in that, I can
certainly pursue that
Lash: So would it be manned by commissioners or staff!
Ruegemer: I think that would be a great way for the commission to hand out literature and
give information about our department throughout the city.
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,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Lash: So that would probably be a big fee.
Andrews: Then we can't do ring toss.
Lemme: You would definitely get at-shirt.
Berg: Which we've got locked up anyway.
Lemme: One idea we had for that is, and we talked a little bit about this last year, was to do
some kind of a game. Maybe like a wheel of parks or something and people could play and
guess trivia about our park system...something to attract people to the booth. Not that you
wouldn't be an attraction. To make it more fun.
Andrews: So what do we think here?
Ruegemer: You can let me know about that
Andrews: We have that now right? How many people are going to be here over the 4th of
"..... July weekend? I don't know yet so. If we could get assistance from Park and Rec staff on
helping with that, I think that's a good idea. I think there is an under awareness of what we
have for parks in the city and I think would help get support for.
Roeser: Now when is that trade fair?
Ruegemer: It's Saturday, July 2nd.
Berg: It'd be nice if we could somehow coordinate the prize board with it and kill 2 birds
with 1 stone.
Lash: I don't think we could handle that.
Berg: You don't think we could handle all those things at one time? I remember the fishing
contest We couldn't handle that We had enough trouble with that...
Andrews: Let's move on. I want to get home.
,.....
Lash: Are you going to plan Septemberfest? I know that's not even on here or anything but
I heard a lot of people asking about sweatshirts or they wanted long sleeve shirts so you
might want to think about that.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
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LIFEGUARD OLYMPICS. LAKE ANN BEACH.
Jerry Ruegemer: Last year the commission allowed Minnetonka Community Services to hold
their Lifeguard Olympics down at Lake Ann Park during a Sunday last year. We did it late
in July. John Raby with Minnetonka Community Services would like to request that again.
If that is possible. Here's just some of the, with the date listed for Sunday, July 31st this
year from 8:00 to 12:00. Some of the events or competition events are listed down below as
to what is going to be happening down at that day. I know last year a concern was about
closing the beach and we didn't allow that last year. That wasn't an issue that..That will be
staffed with lifeguards for general use that day if anybody should choose to come down there
during the competition. So that will be covered as far as that goes but according to John last
year, and I was down there as well, a lot of the general public was more interested in
watching the competition than participating in swimming activities at that time. But just to
cover that portion of it, that will be staffed by lifeguards at that time and I guess at this time
I'm looking to the commission to, if there's any questions on this from last year. Or from
last year to this year. And see if there's approval on this item.
Roeser: It sounds like last year went pretty smooth.
Ruegemer: It did.
--'
Andrews: Let's do it. I move to approve staff recommendation.
Lash: Second.
Andrews moved, Lash seconded to approve the request to hold the Lifeguard Olympics
at Lake Ann Park on Sunday, July 31,1994 from 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
PARK PRIDE DAY.
Ruegemer: Park Pride Day was postponed from April when we had our big snowstorm. We
had to postpone that until this past Saturday, May 21st We did have all the groups that were
going to participate that day, they did participate on Saturday. We had a total of about 5 or 6
groups participate with that. We had over 50 to 60 participants on Saturday to participate in
that program. We cleaned up Meadow Green Park and down that little gully ditch. That was
extensive down in that area.
Meger: Did they win?
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"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Ruegemer: They did win. They did win. That area. There was 4 Brownie troops down in
that area and they did collect the most. They collected 22 bags of garbage...and they got a
maple tree for first place so we'll be coordinating that with that group and they're talking
about planting it at the Chanhassen Elementary School this year. So we'll coordinate the
planting of that with the School District or...we'll get that taken care of and everything went
just fine. It was a great day on Saturday. We served hotdogs and plenty of pop and I think
everybody had a good time so it will be mentioned in the Villager this week with pictures
and some general information.
Andrews: Very good. Let's move on to item 12.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
A. FIRST QUARTER PARK AND TRAIL FEE REVENUE REPORT.
Hoffman: First quarter park and trail fees. Big smile there.
Andrews: Okay, let's move on to 12(b).
~.
B. MCGLYNN COMPANY PICNIC.
Ruegemer: Working with McGlynn Bakeries, this year they would like to have a company
picnic out at Lake Susan. Ms. Gayle Davis with McGlynn Bakeries was concerned about the
parking spaces down at Lake Susan and she was wondering if it could be possible to close
down the park specifically for the use of their picnic for that day and I know we all have
mixed emotions about that and I did inform her at that time that it is a public park for general
use. However, I did agree to bring it to the commission's attention for overall approval or
discussion at this time and that's...it also requests to use the beach area down there for
general swimming during that day. That is not a maintained beach...for bringing in sand or
combing the beach areas. Really the swimming area down there is really not recommended
sO...decision on that as well.
Berg: I don't know that there's any mixed feelings at all Jerry. This is a public park period.
Roeser: Why don't they arrange to park at their own parking lot at McGlynn and run
shuttles? I mean to take up everybody's parking space down there really is, 200 to 300
people is a lot. There's goes all the parking, right?i
Andrews: They can buy stickers and park at Lake Ann.
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
...."I
Roeser: Or even across like you did for the winter festival. Maybe they could make some
arrangements with those businesses across the street but I don't think we should close the
park.
Lash: No.
Andrews: I think we're probably unanimous on that. Again, this brings up a future agenda
item though. What do we do as these questions come up again and again? I mean we do
have a formal policy. Do we need to revisit it? Personally I don't think we need to but.
Lash: What about the swimming though?
Andrews: We can't do that, in my opinion.
Berg: Do we have a liability question with that too?
Lash: Well that was mine. If they were to have to sign some kind of a liability waiver,
there's no problem. If we've got people who are going to swim or kids who are going to go
in there anyway, and then there's no lifeguards there.
Andrews: You're okay with that though if it's marked as no guards. I guess the other thing
that I think about, if people going by there see people swimming, then they're going to think
wow, that's a swimming beach. I can swim too and how do you explain to people, well
McGlynn can swim there but you can't.
.....,;
Lash: If they want to swim and they've got that many people, why don't they book Lake
Ann?
Ruegemer: Because they like the close' proximity of Lake Susan a lot better with the
playground facilities and everything in close proximity. Last year they did have it at Lake
Ann. They felt that was a little bit more spread out than what they would like. They would
like to have that closer to create more of a, I don't want to picnic atmosphere but...promote.
Lash: Family.
Huffman: The reality is though, if they put up a sign up here that says McGlynn Party, if
I'm walking down there and I see that the park's full, I'm going away. But you can't deny
somebody the right to go in there and use the facilities. The reality is, if they go and have
200 people there, more likely than not to go away.
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iJII"""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
Hoffman: Is the commission interested at hosting that large of company picnics at this site?
Lash: I don't think that site accommodates that large a group, does it?
Ruegemer: We can go up to like 250-300.
Hoffman: ...consulting the city attorney, he said you don't have to advocate it but if they
want to swim in a public place.
Andrews: It's at their own risk.
Roeser: Let them just do their own thing with that.
Hoffman: It will be a pretty ugly swimming beach by July 31st.
Andrews: Why doesn't somebody else make the motion here but.
Hoffman: I don't think we need one. We can take the no back to them and Jerry and I will
"""" discuss...
Ruegemer: Just an FYI real quick. That is really a growing concern I guess with me
personally with taking on picnic reservations. As we go through the last couple years now,
there is a growing and increasing amount now of picnics this size coming into Chanhassen.
The word is really getting out that we do have quality facilities and we're booking a lot of
non-Chanhassen picnics already for this year. People coming from Bloomington, Minnetonka,
Minneapolis. There's a lot of those groups that are coming out here now because Lake Ann is
such a premiere park so that's a growing concern to think about for the future as part of the
CIP program. Maybe to look at an additional picnic pavilion that can accommodate large
amounts of people.
Andrews: I thought we just spent half a million dollars building one of those.
Ruegemer: It's being used about every weekend too...
Lash: I don't know how excited I am about paying...bucks for a pavilion so people from
Minneapolis can come to it...
Andrews: Well Dawn, you've been here for 3 hours. It's finally your turn. Make it quick.
If!'"
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 24, 1994
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LAKE ANN CONCESSION STAND.
Lemme: Thank you. Do you have any questions regarding this item? I wanted you to be
aware that we're...Right now it's open on weekends.
Huffman: Some bait may be available? What kind of bait?
Lemme: Worms.
Andrews: Let's move on to a fun one here, 12(d).
SUMMER INTERN.
Lemme: Another person who's been waiting here for 3 hours. And learning a lot...and her
credentials are attached. A fine education and we're really excited to have her in the park
and recreation department. We haven't totally overwhelmed her but we're getting close...
Manders: The only question I have is do you think you have enough things for her to do?
Andrews: Welcome to town. Welcome from all of us so I'm sure we'll keep you busy.
Let's move on.
-"
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS:
A. COMPREHENSIVE PLAN PROOFREADING.
Andrews: Item 13. Is there much to do on that one?
Lash: I have one quick question. That is where...
Andrews: Could you ask that forester to contact me. Please.
Lash: Me too. What's your's. The ask tree.
Andrews: The Dutch elm. I've got elm trees that are not coming down.
(Taping of the meeting ended at this point.)
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann gpheim
58
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