PRC 1994 07 26
",..... CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JULY 26, 1994
Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Jane Megers, Jan Lash, Jim Manders, Ron Roeser
and Fred Berg
MEMBERS ABSENT: Dave Huffman
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; Jerry Ruegemer,
Recreation Supervisor; Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor and Michelle Braun, Recreation
Intern
APPROV AL OF AGENDA:
Andrews: Are there any additions to the agenda that anybody has at this time? Of course
we're free to add items later.
,.... PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
PRESENT A TION OF MINNESOTA RECREATION AND PARK ASSOCIATION
AWARD OF EXCELLENCE. LAKE ANN PARK PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER.
Hoffman: Chairperson Andrews, members of the Commission. Tonight we have among us
some distinguished guests from both the MRPA. Our Executive Director, John Gerben and
from the city of Shakopee Park and Recreation Department, Mark McQuillan. Mark works
on the awards committee for the MRP A Award of Excellence and the City of Chanhassen
was fortunate enough to be recipient of that award in the category of facilities for the Lake
Ann Park shelter. With that I'll turn it over to Mark.
Mark McQuillan: Thank you Todd. Appreciate this opportunity to appear before you tonight
to present you with what we think is a very prestigious award in our profession. As Todd
eluded to, I serve on the MRP A A wards Committee and I think this is about the third or
fourth year now I've been on this committee and it's a really interesting perspective to see a
lot of different projects and programs and facilities that are presented to us for awards and it's
gaining a lot of popularity. It's getting more difficult every year to try to judge. We'd like
to give everyone an award and establish this criteria and it's really difficult sometimes
because I think really the recreation movement is really catching on and the benefits of it
that, I don't want to steal the thunder from John who's here to talk a little about the benefits.
The MRP A A wards Committee presents awards for facility, programming, volunteer
,....
1
sponsorship, and demonstration. The projects are submitted to the committee early in the
'year and generally under the criteria that they have to be completed the year prior to the
presentation to the committee. It's my understanding that your Lake Ann picnic shelter
project is actually almost 10 years old from it's very beginning when it was first initiated. I
think: one of the things that stands out as far as to the committee on this award was the fact
that the persistence that your community has to make sure that this became a reality. I think:
that's something that you should be commended for. In addition to that, we want to present
an award and so it's, and I'd like to maybe ask your Chair, Mr. Andrews, if he'd like to
come out and do you have a picture. It says the Award of Excellence, which is presented to
the City of Chanhassen for the Lake Ann Park Picnic and Recreation Shelter for setting the
standard of excellence... recreation and parks...services, 1994 and it's presented on behalf of
the Minnesota Recreation and Park Association. I would also like to now ask that John
Gerben, who's the Executive Director of MRPA come forward for a short presentation.
John Gerben: Short? Todd mentioned that I would give about 30 minutes. Actually he
threw me off right at the beginning when he referred to me as distinguished. I absolutely
didn't know and I've gotten further thrown out that usually when I do a presentation, I'm
used to people leaving the audience but never walking in and sitting down as a part of the
audience so if I'm a little uneasy, that would be why. The Minnesota Recreation and Park
Association is a professional organization of parks and recreation in the State of Minnesota.
It's not a State funded organization. It's funded by a membership that's funded by the
members that we have here and we're pleased that 3 of our professional members are from
Chanhassen. We also have agency memberships and corporate sponsorships and all this kind
of fits together through the membership fees. Through our recreation and sports commission
that sanctions softball and youth events and State conferences is how our association operates.
The purpose of our association is to further the parks and recreation efforts throughout the
State that we hope improves the quality of life for everybody in Minnesota and certainly by
trying to encouraging communities like Chanhassen to continue to develop a fine park system
with things like the Lake Ann shelter there, certainly encourages us that the message is being
received by the communities and that in fact the quality of life in the communities throughout
Minnesota is improving. And I would venture to say that without the outstanding park
system that's emerging in Chanhassen, I wonder what the quality of like would be. I wonder
what some of the attractions to this community would be. It's been very clear in a number of
studies that have been done that a strong park and recreation system in your community is an
attraction for people to come there and to live there and to be involved. It's one of the things
that help you become a community through parks and recreation department that does a lot of
your festivals. It does a lot of your special events and gives us that chance today in what is
becoming an increasingly fragmented society where everybody's looking after kind of their
own interest, for a chance to come together and be a community. Kind of like the old days
and what it used to be and it seems to me that Chanhassen, in looking at their plans and what
they've done, is very cognizant of that fact. That you want those ideals that were around
from years past. You want to be able to manage the growth. You want that sense of
community in a strong park and recreation department. A strong park and recreation
commitment certainly helps that occur. What I have for you is really just two things outside
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,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
of my additional congratulations on winning the award. I have a fact sheet about our
Minnesota Recreation and Park Association. Just incase anybody is having trouble sleeping
at night, I'm told that by reading this you won't have that problem any longer. It does point
out a few things of our association. The other thing that we have is a reminder about the
benefits of parks and recreation and we put together this poster that explains some of the
benefits to it. We encourage you to hang it up somewhere prominently. Either one of your
recreation facilities or perhaps right behind the Mayor as a reminder that when you're seeking
support for some of your endeavors, that you can point to the poster and say, I think that's
point number 3 which justifies this request for support. So if I could Mr. Chair I'd be, I'm
going to have to see how this goes on brick. But I'd like to present you with our benefits of
parks and recreation poster. This is the handy carrying size.
Andrews: Thank you very much.
John Gerben: Thank you.
Andrews: I'd like to say thank you on behalf of the Park Board. Both current members and
our former members and also for our Park and Rec staff. You know the City Council has
".... given us the support we've asked for and the citizens as well so we feel fortunate that we
have been able to complete this project and hopefully we can continue to strive to improving
our park system, so thank you very much for the recognition and we're more determined than
ever to win it again. So thank you.
John Gerben: If Mark and I leave, will you still have a quorum?
Andrews: Thank you very much. That should be good for a year end bonus Todd, right?
VISITOR PRESENT A TIONS: None.
CARVER BEACH PARK., HEAR REQUESTS OF PAULA AND LOREN VELTKAMP.
6774 LOTUS TRAIL.
Todd Hoffman gave the staff presentation on this item.
Loren Veltkamp: Well they did shorten up that parking.
Paula Veltkamp: Thank you for that
Loren Veltkamp: I want to thank everyone for that. Last time we were here we had a list, I
don't know how many items were on it, maybe 12 but I've reduced it now to 4 and I've been
,.....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
talking with people about it. You know people really didn't want to see the parking reduced
there, even though the residents that I talked to and the people in the city were quite adamant
about keeping that parking there. I don't really care about the parking. The issue that I came
out with originally was just the noise issue. You' know we felt the noise had gotten to a point
where you know, it is better now. Although on Friday we had a real bad day and then on
Monday, yesterday it was bad. The weekend was fme. Saturday and Sunday people...no
problem but I can't figure it out. It makes no sense to me. There's been no fighting on the
raft at all, which the kids were doing every day at about 4:00 they'd come down and fight on
the raft for 2 hours. That was very noisy but that hasn't happened one time since I've been
here before so it is better but there's still some problems. And then since you've shorten the
parking, there's been a couple instances of people parking where the sign used to be. I think
they're probably just going in and thinking there's still a sign there but there's not. So I
called on that and one time there was 2 cars and they were completely outside of the signs
and I doubled checked because one time I called and the car wasn't all of the way outside of
the signs so they said, it doesn't count. So I thought okay, you know you can have this one
but this time they were clearly both out and when I called, nobody came. out and I called a
half hour later and I think I called 3 times. Now I think the second time I called, she said
somebody went down to look at it but they didn't see a problem. I said whoa. Two cars in
front...I told them it was a black Mitsubishi and a gray Buick or Chevy. So I don't know.
~ .. "'1.,There's still a problem with parking but the parking's not an issue to me. It's only the noise
because that's what enters my residence you know so. I've only.got 4 copies of this so I'll
give one to Todd and kind of spread these around up here. The noise problem, I guess
reducing the parking is not what the people in the city want but I was hoping we could install
a sign that said something like quiet zone, which was what somebody brought up last time.
That would be probably pretty much take care of the problem because then I feel like I can
go across street and say, you know can you please keep it down and I won't have to call the
city enforcement because they're pretty late in getting down there anyway. So if we could
have that, that would probably solve the noise problem I think and I would be willing to go
across the street and ask people to... I would also like to have a sigh that says no fighting on
the raf~ There's a lot of fighting that goes on in the spring anyway and I think that from the
city's point of view, it probably is dangerous because I've seen kids fall on the raft and when
they get pushed they don't always land in the water. And the main source of noise is in fact
daycare. On Friday we had 7 adults. Now wait a minute. Last Friday we had approximately
3 adults in the car and about 16 kids and the kids were all in the water at one point. At one
time and it was exceedingly noisy.
Berg: Excuse me, what time was that? Do you know, about what time of day that was?
Loren Veltkamp: Friday. Oh, I'd say early in the afternoon. There were people there from
about 10:00 to 7:00 on Friday. It was really a very busy day.
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Berg: Was it the same group do you think that was there yesterday? Around early afternoon.
I was down there about 1:00 or so and it looked more like families but I wasn't, I'm not able
to tell.
Loren Veltkamp: I can't really tell. I don't know. They come down with an ice chest in the
back of their van.
Paula Veltkamp: It's usually a woman with 4 children and they range in age but they're all
are between oh I would say about 4 and 8. So maybe conceivably they could have.
Loren Veltkamp: There was one teenager there and she was like 16. And I think there was...
I don't really know.
Berg: Okay, it looked more like families amongst that group yesterday.
Loren Veltkamp: It could be. Yeah, it could be. You know 3 big families coming in with
16 kids. I don't know. But that's the main source of noise right there. I mean I guess if
they're families, then no problem but if it is in fact daycare, you know then maybe we should
,...., put a sign up that says no daycare because that's for sure noisy. And it's not a good place
for daycare for sure. But if an adult comes down there with 5 kids and you know, one's on
one side of the beach and one's on another, there could be an accident. So I don't know,
that's something to think about I guess. r d like to have a sign saying no shouting,
screaming, or excess noise. I think that would spell out for people you know what they
shouldn't really do when they're that close to a residence. The other problems are kind of
obvious. We talked about those last time so I don't see any point of getting into those again,
except the illegal parking problem. I would like to see, you know the little posts that they
have in city parks? You know that line the road so people can't park. If you put those in
front of the beach, and it tends to be another problem with illegal parking. ...removable
because the guy that plows got to get through so you drop them in...and you pull them out in
the fall. This would cost you a couple hundred bucks. I'd never have a parking problem
again and neither would you. So I think that's a pretty good solution. The sign costs you,
you know $50.00 and I think that'd be the end of this problem.
Lash: Why do you think there wouldn't be a parking problem if we put posts going in the
beach?
Loren Veltkamp: Wouldn't be?
Lash: Yeah.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
--'
Loren Veltkamp: Well if you bring them out into the road, see people have to pull off the
road to park where there's grass and it's all one smooth shoulder. So it's very easy for them
to park anywhere along and you have people you know stopping in front of the park.
Emptying their stuff out and then they slam their doors and then they go look for a parking
spot. Then they come back and they load their stuff up there so they use it for loading on
and off and that's a lot of noise because the kids are running around and you know, you got
this, you got that. That sort of thing. And other than that you just have people parking right
on the park and that's been happening all summer long. The fishermen do it. Everybody
does it. And it happens in the winter too because... people coming down to ice fish or
'something park there so. We probably can't have the posts in the winter because of the plow
but if you stick those posts in, I think that would really take care of it in the summer. I don't
really care about the winter because the windows are closed and it doesn't matter. It's pretty
inexpensive. I think that really takes care of it. If there's a sign out there that says..and I'm
bothered by noise, I can go down there and talk to them. And I will. I won't call the city
about it because I don't like calling the city...
Andrews: One of our later agenda items is our capital improvement budgeting for next year.
I don't see any reason why these items can't be discussed at that time. I'm only speaking for
myself here. I don't these are very, these are reasonable requests to me and don't appear to
,be all that costly. Does anybody else have any comments to add to that?
...""
Lash: Since I was not here...and I didn't really feel comfortable commenting on it since I
hadn't been here for the full presentation but I read over the Minutes and I went down over
the weekend and drove by it so...and I happened to be there Saturday night and I was pretty
surprised because there wasn't a soul down there. It was beautiful on the lake there. I mean
it was in the evening right after dinner and it was beautiful and there wasn't a soul down
there. But there were a couple of things that I wanted to point out and one being, I think it's
already been addressed. That the parking has been tighten up because it was supposed to
only be 3 spots with 1 indicated as handicapped. So that would allow for basically 2 cars
most of the time, which is pretty minimal. And I was also curious, is there a typical park
rules sign down at that beach that we have at most of the rest of the beaches?
Loren Veltkamp: Yeah there is. No dogs. No this. No that.
Lash: Okay. Because we have a standard sign that we put in all the parks.
Loren Veltkamp: Yeah, it's the same sign that you've got over at the Greenwood Shores
Park.
Lash: Okay, so I'll go check on that. And then I just wanted to point out a couple of things
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
to you guys. One is that we still certainly consider this to be a neighborhood park. You
know you said you wanted it to be returned to a neighborhood park and it is a neighborhood
park and that's the designation that it will always remain. And I just want you to be
comfortable knowing that if you have problems with it, we're here to help you to solve
problems with your neighborhood park. We're not, we don't mean to be working against
each other. We should pull together when there's problems so I want you to feel comfortable
when you do have problems, to come because we are here to help you. And we want to help
to enforce the rules and I'm wondering did Public Safety start to doing more regular
patrolling Todd?
Hoffman: I contacted Scott Harr and again, as far as regular patrols, that's as available basis
as far as responding to the calls. Obviously there they get a deluge of park calls and parking
and Lake Ann on the grass and South Lotus Lake...so they are, they definitely have an
attitude about park complaints. Scott is working with the Carver County Deputy Department
in that regard. In fact they are looking to us to come back and try to make signage more
simplified and...
Lash: I know one of the ideas was just for a few weeks at least to really beef it up at say
r- 10:30 or whatever to try and make sure to curtail any evening activity that was going on.
Paula Veltkamp: ...we have a light outside our house too. Big spot light and we flash them
on. Any teenagers on the raft are gone in a minute. There's no privacy at all so.
Loren Veltkamp: ...we just hit the halogen...but I've honestly, I've never even heard it at
night.
Lash: The problem that we're going to have is that we cannot control people's behavior.
You know we just, there's nothing that we can do. We can post signs until we're blue in the
face and not control people's behavior.
Loren Veltkamp: I know. I don't really expect the city to do it and I don't really want the
city to do it. If the city puts up a sign, then I can go down there and ask them to be quiet
and I'm sure that will be enough. I don't think people like to disturb people in their
residence. I don't go over to their house and make a lot of noise. And I can't drive around...
my stereo loud at night. I don't bother them. They shouldn't bother me. And I think people
understand that.
,.....
Lash: Well then another thing is that some of your requests or some of the concerns for
some of the things, basically I'm the senior member on the commission now and was here
when we had residents from this area in requesting the buoys and the raft and different kinds
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....."
of things that went in down there so it's kind of hard now, just a few years later to have
people coming in and there's a lot of problems with it You feel like geez, we just spent all
this money to try and make people down there happy and put in what they wanted and now
people aren't happy with what we did and you know and want to have it removed. It puts us
in a tough spot.
Loren Veltkamp: I realize that now. I didn't the first time but I began to feel that people
really liked the raft and even though they don't visit the property, they really want to have
the parking down there in case they want to.
Paula Veltkamp: I fmd it interesting though the people that requested those things moved
out.
Loren Veltkamp: They got the raft and they got the parking in and then he moved.
Lash: His property value probably increased. And then there were some other, there was one
reference to the agreement between your neighborhood association and, as far as mooring
boats and things like that and I'm interesting if you have a copy or if one of your neighbors
has a copy of that agreement that would help us to understand what the initial, or original
intention was.
""""""
Loren V eltkamp: I just heard that word of mouth. There are some older residents still
around, so I don't think that there is any paper.
Andrews: The Council went through this process reviewing moorings quite extensively. I'm
in another neighborhood on the lake that had some difficulties with that and that's an issue
I'm sure has been reviewed thoroughly over the last about 18 months. And if there was a
document, it would have had to been produced and word of mouth wasn't going to work.
Because there were so many conflicting statements about you know, somebody said 5 boats.
No, it was 10. No, it was 3 and it was neighborhood versus neighborhood. One
neighborhood said we want boats but we don't want their neighborhood to have boats and so
it got to be, well unless you can prove it with some sort of historical document, then word of
mouth wasn't going to work. So that would be an issue you would have to take up with
Council if you really want to do it.
Lash: But if there is some kind of agreement, it would be, it would actually be beneficial just
to have it on the record for future. So if you can...
Loren Veltkamp: I'll ask around.
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,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: I have a question pertaining to a comment that was made about later evening
activity. And you indicated that you didn't seem to think there was much problem like after
10:00 or after 9:00.
Loren Veltkamp: Not where we are. Not where we are but I'll tell you, on either side of this
I think there might be.
Manders: That's what I'm wondering. Do you recognize that or do you notice that at all?
Loren Veltkamp: No, I don't but people who, people to our left like the Gundersons, they're
right in front of the fishing dock and there's a lot of people that go down there at night to
fish. Now we have some night fishing in front of our beach there because I think people like
to go to walleye because it's sand in there. So there's some walleye fishing in front of our
place at night but it really hasn't bothered me so I have no objection to it. Now they are
bothered because of I don't know, I guess there's been people taking out canoes at night.
Banging the canoes...them up and the dock out there is aluminum so when people walk on it,
it makes noise and that can wake them up because their bedroom's right in front of the house.
So they've got some problems. And then the people at the south end have complained to us,
I"""' just when we were talking to them out walking the dog, about people in the woods drinking.
Because see there's no woods in front of our place. It's just a narrow strip. So there's no
place for them to hide so they're not going to drink there. Plus we have our halogens so I
don't think they're going to drink... But the people on the south end have complained to us
about it.
Lash: ...and when you said south end, are you talking about the south end of this beach or
the other beach?
Loren Veltkamp: The other beach, yeah. The south end of the park. The main beach.
Andrews: What I'd like to do is discuss your request as part of our capital improvement
discussion which is a major item for us later tonight because most of these issues would
relate to spending a little money for a sign or some posts or some minor improvements and
that's exactly what we're going to be talking about here probably in about an hour.
Loren Veltkamp: I could get my money back in one summer by not having those...! mean I
know they don't like that. I've talked to them. I know they don't like to be running out all
the time checking up on this stupid parking.
Paula Veltkamp: I had a question about the handicap parking. There was one time I called
and there were two people parked...but they didn't ticket it, or maybe they didn't get them...
,....,
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Park andRec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
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they would fine one person and the car that stayed. And I called back and asked, well why
wasn't there a ticket issued and the response was that it doesn't really look like it's illegal.
And I don't know what makes a legal handicap and what doesn't but she said, a lot of the
times you just can't ticket people because it's not official. So I don't know if there's some
way to make that more official. So people don't abuse the handicap area.
Lash: How is the handicap parking designated?
Hoffman: With a sign. Did you call Carver County or the City?
Paula Veltkamp: I called the.
Hoffman: Dispatch?
Paula V eltkamp: Yeah the dispatch.
Hoffman: Again, each individual deputy will have a different opinion when they're writing
tickets. Whether or not it's justified or not so...there is that perception. If there is, what
problem them have with it...
Paula Veltkamp: There was one time in the handicap, a couple of teenagers down there once.
The teenagers were talking back to the police and they were saying, well why do you...so that
was it, they got a ticket.
...".,
Lash: ...just shooting their mouth off.
Paula Veltkamp: And I got the feeling that the police really don't want to ticket down there
because they don't want to create bad PRo I don't know. Maybe even a legal handicap
wouldn't give them...way to ticket anyway so I don't know if that would make any
difference.
Loren Veltkamp: That's the point you know. They don't want to come down there and get
on people's bad side when they're just sitting out at the beach.
Berg: I just had a couple things. One has to do with signs and I'll wait until maybe a more
appropriate time to talk about that. The other thing that concerns me a little bit is requests
for not allowing certain groups to use the beach.
Loren Veltkamp: Oh daycare?
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,..,. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Berg: Yeah. I personally have a little bit of a problem with that.
Andrews: I do as well.
Berg: I don't think we can seriously think about closing the beach to certain groups of
people. That's my own opinion.
Andrews: I think we ask for proper behavior but we don't determine what group is allowed.
If they don't behave properly, then we deal with it but we can't decide what groups are
eligible. I agree with that. Thank you for your patience and we appreciate the chance to
work With you. .
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 46.5
ACRES INTO 36 RURAL SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND ONE OUTLOT. HALLA'S
GREAT PLAINS GOLF ESTATES. LOCATED SOUTH OF COUNTY ROAD 14
(PIONEER TRAIL) AND WEST AND EAST OF HIGHWAY 101 (GREAT PLAINS
BL VD.).
.,- Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: Thank you Todd. Mr. Halla, if you'd like to speak to us about this issue, we'd be
happy to hear more from you.
Don Halla: I don't know that I have any pros or cons to it one way or the other. The
decision that you folks have to make with regard to it. One correction I will say that it is
approximately 56 acres on that side of the property. Not 25 to 30. We originally had the 35
lots located on the west half of our property, somewhat in configuration that you see...resulted
from having 2 112 acre lots. Being asked to make it down to roughly half acre lots and now
we're back to 2 114 acre lots. And we're back to using the whole property again. So the city
has been moving us around from one way to another way to another way, depending upon
who's planning. Excuse me, who the City Planner is at the time and the... As far as we have
an interest in it as a park, that's something that you folks have to make a decision on and
move accordingly. One way or the other. I know that part of the thing has been told to us in
the past why we've been jockeying back and forth and yes, there was a desire for a park on
this site. Yes, we really want to buy the nursery on the other side to expand the golf course.
Nobody wants to be up front. Basically just want to have us go back and forth trying to meet
different criteria from different individuals to prevent the development. And one way or the
other development's going to happen. This plan that we have today I think is horrible city
planning. I have a daughter who's a landscape architect out in Baltimore...and I can say that
the way we are right now with what to do on this third go around now doesn't serve the city
,.....,
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.....".
well as far as tax money goes. As far as concentration of homes and so forth. When you're
using as much land as what's being used. We're playing the city game. That's all I can tell
you. And as you can see what some of my feelings that I'm expressing here, that I'm...but
we're doing what we're asked to do and we'll continue to do so until it gets approved. I
don't think there's anything we can't improve on this one. We've gone full circle from
where we started and trying to meet them at every angle that they ask us to do and...
Andrews: Okay. Todd's recommendation is that the Park Board table this until August 9th
so we can have our last chance really to take a look at this property as a potential park site.
Knowing how short land is going to become, I guess I'm asking you if that would be a
suitable or would it fatally impair your project that we could table it to August 9th? I think
at that point, as a commission, we would be able to make some sort of decision. Are we
going to really pursue this or not Nothing's going to get built this fall I don't believe. Even
with the fastest processes of the city I don't think they can get things done that fast but do
you think we would be able to ask for your indulgence through August 9th?
Don Halla: We asked for delays and being forced to do what we're forced to do. It's the
city who's pushing us. Not us pushing the city. So I'm just not going to let the city figure a
method out that they can prevent me from putting lots on my property and having it
subdivided. The city's got to come to grips with what they're trying to do. We said that we
wanted to let the land basically sit and not develop. We already have a 2 1/2 acre
preliminary plat approval on it. We're being forced to go back and forth on this other...so it's
the city who's in the, forcing us to do something. And I'm just going to do what I have to
do and make sure that I can put lots on there according to what was approved earlier.
Whatever that means, if you want to delay it and not rule it against me, I could care less.
But I'm not going to do anything that's going to jeopardize my getting the number of lots on
there so I can get value out of my property.
...,..,
Andrews: I guess to ask a question. Are you saying that you have no interest in potentially
selling this at a fair market value as park property? That's kind of what I'm.
Don Halla: It depends upon what you call fair market value for park property.
Andrews: Well that would be your decision obviously. You're the current owner so you
decide what's fair.
Don Halla: We have a preliminary plat approval of this property for the same, I believe the
number of lots that are on it now. 2 112 acre lots and that's basically what this is in size. 2
112 acre lot development. Just a different configuration than what's already done.
12
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"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: Just to reconfirm the east portion of this property is how large?
Don Halla: The area that you see with the lots on it is 46 acres. The area that you show as a
big section on the bottom right hand...
Lash: And the ones on the west side?
Don Halla: The west side is another 46 1/2 acres. Plus 2 1/2 acres that's already been
subdivided. It's just under 50 feet. It's 49. 8 or 9. Total.
Andrews: Does that plat show the proposed straightening of the highway? Is that what that
ghosted in line is there?
Don Halla: If it ever happens, yeah. This right through here is for the straightening of the
road. And that easement has been already granted. The trail easements have been granted.
The widening of 10 1 has been granted. The city has all those easements and so forth on the
understanding that we were doing the subdivision of the property. We've met all their
requirements.
,.....
Hoffman: Just to clarify, there is 46 1/2 acres on each side of the road there?
Don Halla: 46 112. My brother owns 10 acres on the south there that shows as future
development. It's not my property.
Lash: But you own 46.
Don Halla: I own 46.
Lash: So we can forget about the 10 because that's not your's.
Don Halla: That's not mine. If you needed more land, there's probably another 20 acres
available to the south. But our property was all graded for the nursery purpose so it was
made into a pretty level site. There's enough for drainage across it and...
Andrews: Well as usual the pressure of development is much quicker than our ability to deal
with it, it seems as a city and as a Park Board. As a Planning Commission. As a Council.
The pace of development is just always surprising to me. We're already reacting rather than
anticipating it seems. I feel as a Park Board that we should accept Todd's recommendation,
which is to table and look at this and make a decision. You know either we're going to
pursue this or we're not. I think it deserves discussion. There's going to be very few pieces
""
13
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
..-I'
of property that are potentially suitable for an athletic complex in the southern area of the city
and I guess I feel it'd be irresponsible to not take a serious look at it. I make that as a
motion to the board here if somebody wants to second that.
Manders: I'll second that.
Andrews: Okay, we'll move that this issue is tabled and will be on the August 9th meeting
date.
Andrews moved, Manders seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table
action on the Halla's Great Plains Golf Estates land development proposal until the
August 9, 1994 special Park and Recreation Commission meeting, at which time this
item will be discussed. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL: ED AND MARY RYAN TO REZONE 37.92
ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED RR. RURAL RESIDENTIAL TO RSF.
RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMll..Y. PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 37.92
ACRES INTO 52 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND A WETLAND ALTERATION
PERMIT LOCATED AT THE INTERSECTION OF GALPIN BOULEVARD AND
PROPOSED LAKE ROAD EXTENSION. 6730 BOULEVARD. SHAMROCK RIDGE.
~:.,..:
--'
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: I have one question and that would be, is there any potential north/south trail that
would connect somewhere internally in this big section of land that we should be looking at a
potential trail easement on that western edge of this property.
Hoffman: There will be a north trail heading off this extension into the Minnetonka
Intermediate School but that's farther on down the line. As far as south, you run directly into
some wetlands. Some years ago there was an extension of the trail. The trail system up
along the interceptor, the Lake Ann Interceptor which is very close to the south of this plat
but that has since been removed and it's been...instead of going cross country, that will
come...and Lake Lucy.
Andrews: The property directly to the west of this has not yet come in, is that correct?
Hoffman: No.
Andrews: It makes me nervous not to consider, even though we have no plan at this point to
14
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
have any trail there, to not have a potential easement on that. On the western border that
could coordinate with the development on the Highway 41 end that might provide us some
connection. I mean it seems like whenever we say we don't need it, then we come back later
and geez, then we wish we had taken something or thought about something.
Lash: Are you talking about on the western edge?
Andrews: The western edge of this development.
Lash: Running north and south?
Andrews: Yep. Is there any potential value to any connection.
Roeser: It doesn't reach TH 41 there then, right?
Andrews: No, no. But I'm saying there's another big chunk of land that will come in some
day over there and would there be any value to having a north/south connection trail. W ouId
it connect up to any other east/west trail that would be of value to the south of this or to the
,...., north of this. Because you're talking a huge.
Lash: There's going to be a trail on Galpin and there's ultimately going to be one on TH 41.
You're saying just something somewhere inbetween those two.
Andrews: I mean how wide is this? Is that like a half a mile? A mile? It looks huge on the
map.
Hoffman: I didn't notice that anything...but it's difficult.
Andrews: I retract my question. It's only about 1,000 feet from the middle to the edge. So
that's not really a hinderance to ask somebody to walk 1,000 feet to a trail. So I don't think
that's necessary. Never mind. It just looked a lot bigger than that on the map. Any other
discussion? If not, a motion.
Manders: I'd move that we accept the staff recommendation and approve this proposal.
Andrews: Is there a second?
Roeser: I second.
,....
Manders moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
...",
. that the City Council require the following conditions of approval in regard to park and
trails for the Shamrock Ridge plat:
1. Full park fees be collected per city ordinance.
2. An 8 foot bituminous trail be constructed parallel to Lake Lucy Road. This construction
to be incorporated into the Lake Lucy Road Extension Project. The developer shall be
reimbursed for the cost of said trail from the city's trail fund.
3. Sufficient county road right-of-way/easements be maintained along County Road 117
(Galpin Boulevard) to accommodate possible future trail construction.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Andrews: Item 5 is the CIP work session. Now the work starts.
Hoffman: If the Commission would like to entertain completing the rest of the agenda.
... ~.,Andrews:' Yes, let's do that and then come back and kill this one at the end.
....",
PROGRAM REPORTS:
A. 1994 4TH OF JULY CELEBRATION EVALUATION.
Ruegemer: Would it be helpful for the commission for us to go through each event or do
you want, I take it everybody's had a chance to take a look at the evaluation of the 4th of
July celebration. Is there anything that isn't covered in the evaluation itself that the
commission members would like to touch on?
Andrews: Yes. I guess I was just curious why you felt you'd like to change from the Hi-
Tops, being that people seem to like them so much.
Lash: That's what I had on mine too.
Ruegemer: I think what we're trying to do is I guess with our department we're always
trying to move on. We're always trying to create a new look or create maybe a new
experience for the celebration. The Hi-Tops have been playing around here for 7 or 8 years.
We felt that it's time for a change. To give this celebration, we just celebrated our 10th
anniversary. Maybe now it's time to look for something else.
16
..."",
" . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: If it ain't broke, why fIx it.
Lemme: Well there's a lot of great bands out there though.
Lash: Yeah, well I think the White Sidewalls are great but it's not like it's going to be a
drastic change...type of music and I know the White Sidewalls are expensive and I think: they
get booked up pretty far in advance too.
Andrews: Yeah, I guess I had the same question. It seems like we're just looking at
basically the same style music. Why change the name of the band if the music's going to be
basically the same. If we're going to make a change, I guess it would make more sense to
me to look to a different style of music and I guess I feel that I would not recommend a
change of style. I think: what they play is easy entertaining type of music. A lot of people
can dance to it and have fun with it and it doesn't get too rowdy or too crazy so.
Lash: And you have a different style of music...I guess I'd be willing to look at some
different alternatives. If you want to show us some different prices and stuff. I think: for the
price...
~.
Andrews: We'll look at it.
Lash: I have a question on the water wars. I know that was really popular and when I was
in line and watching, I heard somebody say well we could just, why couldn't we just build
one of those. That wouldn't be hard to build one of those so is that a possibility that we
could just, the maintenance guys over the winter build a couple of those things.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we took pictures of the water wars.
Lash: From all angles.
Ruegemer: And we even had a citizen say he would draft something up on his CAD system
so that's being looked at for a winter project.
Lash: That was real popular. I thought that was great. And then I had one other question.
A comment that I had directed toward me was the sand sculpture...and someone suggested to
me that we either come up with more effective age brackets or have like just a kids one and a
family one or something so that it's not as, you know we have like I can't remember. It was
somebody who was in it and he said, gee I feel guilty because...
,....
Lemme: I heard that too and people had...more competitive category versus a family
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
...."
category and then also to really separate off the areas so that people aren't stepping on each
other's sand sculptures and I think that would be easily done. Just with that...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
B. SEYfEMBERFEST PREVIEW.
Lemme: We could block off areas so people could...It might be difficult but we still
thought...We're looking at maybe getting some more civic organizations like the 4H or
something to operating them. Whatever the Lions Club does not sell. If they want two
booths...
Roeser: When is it going to be?
Lemme: September 24th.
Lash: That'd be kind of fun. If people brought their pumpkins.
Andrews: Will the new store be open by then? Is that what they're targeting?
-'
Ruegemer: Byerly's?
Andrews: A year from then? Is that what they're shooting for.
Hoffman: They want to be open for Thanksgiving but it's more realistic before Christmas.
Berg: What are you thinking of doing with the teen dance? I mean besides the obvious.
Having a dance for teens.
Hoffman: They didn't warm up to this idea very well but the nighttime activities just slow
me down so we said if we needed a daytime when people would come out in the morning,
you know 9:00. Bake sale. Farmers market and everything and wind this thing down about
4:00. We've got tents and tables and all this investment out there. I said if we bring in an
$800.00 band or could use some of this local stuff and what's the number one thing teenagers
want to do is hang out. It's also an age group which we miss in our city. My staff, my other
staff partners they just don't know if that will do it. So we want to hear from you. Will that
do it? If we just have a tent there and we have nobody else there but teenagers and we just
throw this rock band up in the center of the city for 3 hours during the evening, will they
show up?
...."
18
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Berg: Add one other element and you've got a better chance. Lots of food.
Hoffman: Pizzas. We talked about that.
Lash: Prizes.
Andrews: Pizzas would do it.
Lash: I mean almost like your teen dance that you have at the middle school, only it would
be outside and any age but.
Andrews: I think that'd be a cool idea. I think kids would really like that.
Berg: My fIrst thought was to agree with Jerry and Dawn and say, oh. But we've been
talking since I've been on the board about we don't do anything for teenagers and I think we
could, I think we've got to try.
Lash: And it might be scary.
,....
Manders: Where does this happen? Up here at the city center.
Hoffman: Right here.
Andrews: I think we need to do something like you give every kid like a coupon for 2 slices
of pizza and he gets into the dance.
Lash: You wouldn't even have to have a band. What if we just did a DJ thing again? That
seems to be very popular.
Berg: Do a DJ with some lights.
Lash: It wasn't somebody who was just totally obnoxious and you could still have some
adults there.
Andrews: I think we ought to really target the teens here. I think that's a good idea. I think
a DJ may be better than a band because if you haven't go the right kind of band, you've got
a bad deal.
Hoffman: We thought about that. We'd go talk to the Youth Commission. If there's
somebody hot out there... Let them pick their own band. We're not the ones to pick it.
,...
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....".,
Ruegemer: We could just contact a new OJ services this morning so.
Manders: I understand that they've got a new guy at KDWB.
Hoffman: Yeah.
Lash: Well we probably don't want him.
Andrews: Alright.
Hoffman: Anything else?
Berg: In anticipation of one of these things, make sure Minnetonka finds out about it too.
The teen dance.
Andrews: I was going to get to that later.
c. MID-SUMMER REPORTS.
\,.."t.;.Ruegemer:!.Thisis just really an FYI. Just bringing to the commission's attention how we're
doing with parking revenues. As of, just for conversation sake, I just threw in the totals at
the end of June this year versus the end of June last year. That's where we're sitting. The
July report should be coming in roughly in a week I suppose but here's where we were at as
far as the end of June so we are far ahead as to what we were last year. I believe that's
directly related to the nice weather that we've been having. We've had a couple crappy
summers and, two years in a row and everybody's just pleased as punch that we have decent
weather and they're coming out and using our parks so.
"""'"
Manders: This isn't year to date, it's just the month of June?
Ruegemer: No. Just from early May to end of June so.
Lash: And that used to be what it was for the whole year.
Ruegemer: Right, and as we wrap up the summer we'll have a final report on revenues that
will reflect..
Lash: Hopefully we can have a discussion at that time about this procedure.
Andrews: Pardon me? Dh, about the gates?
20
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: Yeah. When he does the year end thing.
Ruegemer: Just another topic of discussion too is with the picnic evaluations coming back,
the groups that have been using the park, probably 9 out of 10 have been coming back that
we do pay fees to facility and felt that the parking fee was over...on our part.
Hoffman: Gouging.
Ruegemer: ...some of those picnic evaluations were enclosed in the Admin Section but more
come in every day so we'll tally those at the end of the season and take a look at those.
Andrews: Alright.
Ruegemer: Item number 2 is, this is mine as well. It's just another FYI for you. Picnic has
also been overwhelming this summer. We've been going through a lot of picnic
conversations on a daily basis. As of today, I probably as of today, I've probably had over
80 since I've written the report so they just keep coming in. Again, this is at the end of June
of this year in comparisons to last year. This year is $3,749.13 as compared to last year at
"'" $1,900.00 so we're way ahead. Projections as of last year and we should have no trouble
reaching the goal of $5,000.00 for picnic revenues.
Lash: So if we take parking and the picnic shelters, can we raise that money to buy the Halla
property?
Ruegemer: That might be difficult.
Hoffman: An acre.
Ruegemer: So just a FYI for you and I just included, just to bring you up to date...
Andrews: Alright, let's move ahead. Let's quickly get through the, do you need to talk
about the concession stand revenue? That's up too so. Item 7, special meeting date August
9th. Let's move on to item b. Second quarter park and trail revenue report.
Hoffman: We need to catch with Dawn on the Lake Ann concession.
Andrews: Well it's all there. I mean pardon me but if we're going to get through the CIP
we're going to be here until midnight. If that's okay. I read through these and they're pretty
self explanatory.
,-
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....",
Lash: . But I have a question on August 9th one just in regard to the selection of vendor for
the play equipment. I noticed that the vendors, that the substitutions were sent to and it
seems to me in my recollection, one of the vendors on that list we've had a little difficulty
with in the past. I was just wondering if there's some more reason why we need to continue
to send out to that vendor or should we try someone else?
Hoffman: We could expand that list. The vendors which are on the list are really in order
local vendors. The person who we've done a lot of business with and then a person who
we've done some business with who's... If that's your criteria, if you want to eliminate that
one due to past experience, that's at your discretion. If you want to direct me not to send this
to the vendor, you could certainly do that.
Lash: Well I'm just speaking for myself but if I've had a bad experience with someone in
the past, I probably would not go and order from them again. I think it's sort of a waste of
our time and a waste of the vendor's time and we might want to go find a different vendor if
we want to send out 3 bids. Find somebody that we think would be more satisfactory. Is
there anyone who.
Andrews: Well I think that's great. I mean why, we have had a problem and I forget which
one it is but I wouldn't want to do business with him. I mean just why bother. We've had a
very unsatisfactory experience with a lot of fmger pointing back and forth and I just don't
think we need to deal with that.
...".
Lash: And I think we were very clear originally when we placed our order that if it did not
work out, that this was, this would be his shot and if you blow it, you blow it. And he blew
it and I meant it when I said that so if you have any questions about it...
Hoffman: We'd like to start the review...but I can let that person know.
Berg: Jan, what park was that again?
Lash: That we had the problems?
Berg: Where we had the problem?
Lash: Was it at Herman Field?
Hoffman: Carver Beach, Herman Field.
Andrews: Okay, let's move on to, let's delete him from our considerations. I don't think we
22
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'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
need a headache.
B. SECOND QUARTER PARK AND TRAIL REVENUE REPORT.
Andrews: It's great to see those kinds of numbers.
Hoffman: To be honest..obviously are driving that are Byerly's, the apartments and multi
units you see going up over here. The industrial you see going up over in the...and a healthy
amount of residential single family as well so it's a combination of factors that has led to this
revenue increase. But again, it's all good news but it's going to go away fast.
C. CONSIDER CHANGING 4TH OF JULY CELEBRATION TO A SUMMER
FESTIVAL.
Braun: Alright, this is pretty self explanatory, if you read it. We're considering changing our
annual 4th of July celebration to a summer festival and more than likely prior to the 4th of
July. We just need to know your comments.
r-.
Andrews: Why?
Hoffman: It's a combination of factors. The attendance is flat and the population continues
to increase. We have, first of let me preface my comments by saying we have no problems
continuing with the tradition. We just want to explore giving the community the most bang
for it's buck and a lot of people are out of town. They have plenty to do on the 4th of July.
They don't need another activity scheduled on their 4th of July weekend. However, we also
recognize that a lot of people consider this their 4th of July weekend and their tradition so if
you move it away, you're going to taking away their tradition. But they also have the
opportunity to join in with the summer festival. So that is the sole reason behind it. There's
no hidden motives. It's just a consideration. We spend $25,000.00 on our festival. Should it
be on a weekend when we think we can deliver to most of the residents. The picnic didn't
have any more people than any other year and I'm just anticipating that we should have more
people. We had a 3 day weekend this year when people leave town. On a 3 day weekend
next year. The 4th is on Tuesday so many people will take advantage of that 4 day weekend.
They'd like to be in town but they're going to be up north or visiting relatives or doing other
things so that's the only consideration.
Las~: I guess what I, my original thought too was why I like it, I like it the way it is.
Although I can see in the last couple years it's been convenient because it's been falling on
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. It's always working around the weekend but next year
'"
23
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
......"
it's going to be Tuesday. The next year it's going to be Wednesday and then how are we
going to do these 3 days worth of things when the 4th is on a Wednesday or something. It's
going to screw everything up big time. So I guess what I would be willing to look at, if it
falls on a weekend, keep it the way you've been doing it. If it falls mid-week, maybe have
it be the weekend before or the weekend after. Just because I think you'd have a higher
attendance rate. I don't even know how you'd do it. I don't know how you did it in the
past when it was in the middle of the week. How did you do it?
Hoffman: Just split it off.
Lash: Did stuff on the weekend and then just had some stuff the 4th of July.
Hoffman: The tradition has always been that the fireworks have always been on the night of
the 4th, no matter when it hits. Many times the family games were that same day. Just the
thought process related to being a day off and then the weekend activities still went on.
Lash: So you had like the fishing contest and the dance and all that on the weekend.
Hoffman: Yeah. On the weekend, on a Saturday night or Friday. Just food for thought. We
,.,~,think we have a very strong tradition going for 10 years but always changing towards the ......",I
most bang for the buck.
Andrews: I think we have a long line of people here, if we try to change it, and certainly
have not had a line of people here asking us to change it.
Lash:. Well I look at people who have a family, or not a family but have a tradition of doing
something away, still have that tradition. And if we take away the 4th tradition that's been
built here, I mean there are some people who have now made that their tradition. If we take
that away, then they have nothing to do and then they've got to start looking for something.
Berg: r d like to see us extend our energies towards increasing the numbers of people. Look
at it from that angle instead of changing it. Look at ways to get more people here. What
those are I don't know without doing some thinking about it but.
Lash: I think there's a very healthy turnout considering the fact that it's a holiday weekend
and a lot of people are, or a holiday and a lot of people do leave. I think we have a very
good turnout. I don't know that I would want to see 15,000 people. I mean that's pretty...
Andrews: Well we've got new facilities coming into the city too. We have the new school
property. Maybe as that becomes ready, that becomes part of the festival. Maybe there's a
24
...."
,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
soccer tournament or another ball tournament out there for a different age group or whatever
so I think we'll be able to expand what the city offers as we have more facilities to offer.
Berg: And I think it was the case with us too. It takes people a while. once they move into a
community to get used to the kinds of things that are traditional in the community and if we
start jockeying the times around, all of a sudden that tradition is gone. Maybe we should just
give these new people some opportunity and time to get into the community. Get settled
down and oh, this is what we do in Chanhassen on the 4th of July.
Lash: Well and if you don't know anybody in town, to go to something like that isn't really
very fun. So your rust couple years maybe people don't take advantage of something like
that but as you get to meet more people through different activities, and you hear more about
it...
Manders: Personally I don't have a problem with this idea of trying to establish this summer
festival idea. I wouldn't mind that. Then I could take advantage of some other 4th of July
activities someplace else. I don't necessarily want to pass on this but then that would open
the ballgames up. I can see the pros of doing a summer festival and for people to get
-"'" together and mingle, certainly they have that option this other week. It doesn't have to be
that 4th of July week. My views.
Hoffman: The only reason that that came to mind. My neighborhood was virtually empty on
the 4th of July weekend. There was nobody home. And then you have 6 or 7 other
competing events going on in neighboring communities so, only so many people can show
up. So for that sole reason, I fully support the tradition and all this sorts of things but in 1996
the city will celebrate it's l00th birthday celebration as well so then you'll be forced to
consider if you want to play that on the 4th of July weekend or the park commission will
most likely be charged as the organizing group for that centennial celebration. Whether
you'd like to do it on a separate weekend.
,.....
Andrews: I think it makes more sense to look about building on either side of this rather
than changing the core program that we now have because tradition is important. I know for
the kids especially, whenever you make changes, kids seem to be really sensitive to those
things and they don't want to see, they don't want to see anything taken away. As the city,
and I guess I was thinking here as you were talking, what are some things we could do to
create more attention. Maybe we have a Tour de Chanhassen the weekend before. You
know a bike trip around the city to every park or park scavenger hunt or something like that.
Just to create some activity the weekend before or the weekend after. If it falls in the middle
of the week. Something like that. We could talk about it more but I guess I'm reluctant to
say let's scrap the 4th of July and look at something else. I think we should leave that alone
25
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
......,
and build around it. That's my opinion. Are you looking for formal direction here?
Lash: If there's a centennial celebration, I think that's just one more party we'll have.
D. APPOINTMENT TO DISTRICT 112 COMMUNITY EDUCATION ADVISORY
BOARD.
Braun: Basically...Community Education Board is looking for someone...position and is there
anyone willing to apply for that position?
Andrews: Is there anybody that would like to have the job?
Lash: Didn't Dave say something about it.
Andrews: I notice in your note here that you say that if one of us does not volunteer, that
you're asking us to find somebody. That in itself would be a project I think. There is no one
here that's interested in doing this?
Hoffman: Councilmember Mark Senn sits on the Minnetonka Advisory Board.
....",
Berg: So?
Hoffman: It's just that it's not unusual that the community education look for other city
officials to come down and get involved because we work so closely together that they would
like representation and direction from local units of government.
Lash: He's on the 112?
Andrews: 276.
Berg: Who was on this before?
Hoffman: There has not been an official Chanhassen representative and they're actually
adding this position.
Lash: What about some of the strong candidates that we've had applying for a commission
member appointment?
Megers: Like Chris Sones?
26
...."
""" Park and Ree Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: He's in District 276, isn't he?
Berg: No, 112.
Andrews: He's in 112? He'd be a good one actually.
Hoffman: He's in this district and he works in the Hutch district.
Andrews: An interesting perspective. A lot of knowledge.
Berg: And his wife teaches in this district.
Megers: Okay, I nominate Chris.
Andrews: Well being that we have no volunteer tonight, and I'm certainly not willing to
volunteer Dave Huffman without his being here, as much as we'd like to. I think Chris
Sones would be a good one to contact to see if he might be interested. If that is
unsuccessful, I would say then we need to put something in the paper that somebody with an
r""., interest in park and ree activities that would be interested in serving, please contact you Todd.
. . And try to move ahead on this. This is an opportunity for us to have more input in
coordinating programs and developing programs and we should tIy to take advantage of it.
Berg: And if we go through all that and we don't have anybody, let us know so we can talk
about it again. Maybe somebody will change their mind.
Ruegemer: I have one more real brief Administration Presentation. We're talking teen
dances again here. We're still planning on doing some this winter. We had some, we did
two this year. October 28th and January 13th. The October 28th is going to be for 6th grade
only and then what we're going to do is do the 7th and 8th graders together on the January
13th date. In meeting with the different agencies that are sponsoring the programs, I guess
we're having a little bit of a logistics problem as to how to cheek people at the door. I know
you guys wanted to do different age groups. That type of thing. I guess what I'm looking
for is maybe some direction or some comments maybe as to how that might be successful as
far as.
Andrews: Kids don't have school ID's do they?
"""
Ruegemer: ...and we talked about different things and possibly selling tickets through lunches
like a couple days before. I know that kids are going to lose them by the time they get there.
We'll maybe do like a registration form that they would turn in that night from a parent or a
27
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....."",<
guardian. I guess that's basically what we're looking for. Is some direction. Possibly some
ideas that you may have. How to stop some of those problems, solutions which we really
haven't had in the past. Just as far as age separation, that type of thing. I know it's easy for
the middle schools. They hold parties right after school to do that but when we're in a
different situation and that.
Lash: What if you have a sign-up or some type of registration.
Ruegemer: Like a checklist at the door?
Lash: Right. Then you have a checklist and you just come.
Ruegemer: We had talked about that in October and it really isn't a problem but once you
get into December and it gets a little bit colder, we do have quite a bit of a line at the front
door and we're just looking at things as far as speeding up the process when it comes to that
point. We had talked about that...and we had talked about maybe do a selling tickets during
the lunches and then creating a list at that point and just cross reference it. Would that speed
up the process? That's what we're trying to look through is some situations or scenarios that
would ultimately separate those two as we try to plan things from the standpoint where we
.'<. ....;0. would have possibly might not have girls or boys basketball game at home that night where
we would have maybe some of the older kids coming over and trying to crash. We've
always, we're trying to take a look at different things and plan these accordingly so if there's
any suggestions out there, we'd welcome those.
...,."
Berg: Is there any way you could have representatives from the two schools, like they used
to run the old elections way back 100 years ago and identify the kids?
Ruegemer: As far as having a teacher?
Berg: Teachers or deans.
Ruegemer: We had talked about that, you know how possible is that to get a teacher on a
Friday night to come out.
Berg: Well if you offered to pay them something. They wouldn't do it for free.
Ruegemer: Well that's one of my problems too. If we have an unlimited budget here, I have
no problem, we can pull this ahead. But we have to look at things financially as well and we
haven't really made a ton of money on these but we haven't gone in the hole.
28
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I""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: So you really think that 7th and 8th graders are going to want to go to a 6th grade
thing? It's like, it seems to me that they wouldn't even want to, but I don't know.
Andrews: I think that the ticket idea probably would handle about 99% of the problem and it
doesn't matter what you do, if somebody's determined enough, they'll find a way to get
around it. I mean you could use parents, permission forms but they could sign those
themselves. Tickets, they could give them to their buddies or take them from their enemies
or whatever but you could just deal with those people on an individual basis and hope that we
catch most people. I think that's the best way to do it. Maybe have different colors so that
each party so that the kids don't keep them or exchange or try to swap them or whatever.
Berg: And I'm sure you will have thought of it too but remember the 6th graders are all over
the place now.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we talked about and what we're going to do is going to do a little
campaign...! guess going out to the Chanhassen site. Going out to Jonathan and the middle
school.
r'
Andrews: Minnetonka.
Ruegemer: Minnetonka. There was talk about this is maybe an opportunity for all those
students to get together with their peers. That they might be in separate locations but this is
way for them to get together.
Andrews: A rumble. Turf war.
Hoffman: Have we considered holding these at Minnetonka? Or do they do their own?
Andrews: They do have their own. It's paid for by the school district, not by the park and
rec department. The school pays for it. Okay, okay.
Ruegemer: Are there any comments regarding...Thank you for your time.
Berg: Thank you for breaking them up.
Lash: Yes, I appreciate that too.
1995 PARK ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT
PROGRAM (CW) WORK SESSION.
,....
29
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.....,JI
Andrews: Let's move back to item 5 and hit the Capital Improvement Program here. I
noticed that Todd you made a note here that I was going to expedite this, lead us through the
brainstorming. I didn't bring my calculator tonight so I'm not able to keep a running tally of
where we're going here with that so do either you or Jerry have a calculator. Okay, good.
Last year I know we had used the target figure of $150,000.00 as a reasonable CIP dollar
figure and it appears as though that's probably a little conservative. Would you agree?
Hoffman: It depends on how much you want to bank roll for these land acquisitions or do
you want to spend.
Andrews: I think well, we're going to have different opinions on that but why don't we just
go through it and we'll wish list it first and then see where we stand. That's usually what
we've done in the past. Sometimes we've come in with our wish list at a reasonable number
and then we can just go with it. Let's start out with Bandimere, which appears to be just
continue as is. Just as a point of interest. There is a group that's potentially going to
approach the city about joint funding of some grading improvements at Bandimere to make it
suitable for ballfields or soccer fields in particular. At this point it's strictly just a concept or
an idea and we'll see where that leads but it may be an opportunity for the city to get the
park partially improved or completely improved at no cost to the city. And I'll talk to Todd
more about that later but there is a group of people that's thinking about trying to do that.
...you can still cut ballfields out of it. We've been wanting to get it graded for years anyway
and it may give us a way to get it done. I have no idea where this could lead but I think it's
something that let's take a look at. See where it goes.
~
Hoffman: Another parent talked to me. Had no idea that you were on the same track so it's
being discussed.
Andrews: Chuck Reinstra?
Hoffman: No.
Andrews: Oh okay.
Hoffman: They were looking at some land in St Bonifacius.
Andrews: Yes, that's the same. I've heard about that one too but that's about 20 miles
outside of town and that's not going to cut it. People aren't going to drive 20 miles for
soccer practice.
Hoffman: ...endowed with some money.
30
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: Well the league has some money and they have the proven ability to raise some
money in the last couple years. We've collected some large sums of money for programs so
I don't know where it could lead. I don't know how much it could cost. But the league is
even talking to Minnetonka School District about helping them improve Minnetonka Middle
School West to put in more fields there so they're exploring any options because to be quite
honest, the soccer program is at a breaking point as far as fields go. Field space goes. It's a
matter of do they cut the program or look for some communities to cooperate so something
that may come down the line.
Lash: And I'm assuming Todd if there's anything that's been requested through your office...
Hoffman: It's all hearsay right now.
Andrews: Bandimere Heights Park. Is anybody aware of any requested improvements for
that park? None. Let's move on. Bluff Creek requires nothing at this point. I'm trying to
refresh my memory. Was there an access road or a parking space discussion in the past years
about this one?
,-.. Manders: How does this tie with that rail? That Bluff Creek rail thing or is that just not
even connected.
Hoffman: Not connected but now there's a connection made with that Riley-Purgatory
watershed acquisition. They purchased a chunk of land there.
Lash: And I'm assuming they just did that to just preserve it.
Hoffman: That's what they're indicating.
Andrews: Okay, Carver Beach Park.
Lash: Is the south one or the north one?
Manders: This is the beach.
Hoffman: This is the linear park. The beach. Both beaches.
Andrews: Condition of the rafts and docks and so forth, anything we have to look at there?
Hoffman: No. The condition of all the equipment there is in good repair. The play
equipment is new at the south beach location. The buoys...bench. The benches which will
,....
31
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
~
need to be replaced or repaired at the south location.
Andrews: Okay we had a request tonight for some potential signage, a couple litter baskets, a
no picking flowers sign which I don't know. You could put up enough of those, you won't
be able to seethe flowers. Also this idea Todd, I don't know how you felt about this idea of
removable posts to block people temporarily using the grass and beach area as an unloading
zone. Do you feel that's practical or advisable?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: Can you explain why?
Hoffman: Removable posts are logistically difficult. They're not, it's not a $500.00 item. It
would be more complicated to engineer and would prove to be both...
Andrews: It may be nice trophies for the kids too.
Hoffman: Placing obstructions anywhere, not just on the shoulder of the roadway but in the
interior of the roadway. In places where liability is an issue. ,We cannot maintain a city
roadway and then place an obstruction within it. So I would think our engineers and our ....,;I
public safety people would have some great concerns with that. In .. short, for the advantages,
which you're hoping to obtain. The...which you'd be creating in my opinion, would far
outweigh that.
Lash: Do you have any projects over the different options? Something that would do the
same thing.
Hoffman: To place park bollards and a chain in this park system have not traditionally been
maintained. I've seen in other park systems where park bollards line every park road in some
of their community parks. Chaska, or excuse me. Shakopee's park there and the oaks just to
the north of town had bollards. And/or boulders. Now boulders could be placed at this
specific location to hinder the ice fisherpeople from driving on and off the lake in that
location. That's been done but as far as eliminating, pulling out parking and short of putting
an obstruction out in the roadway, you're not going to eliminate that. So even if you put
bollards on the roadway line, people can still pull over to it
Andrews: How about a couple of litter baskets and some sort of signage that this is a
residential, I mean that is a tight area down there and also with water, there's a lot of sound
reflection and is there someway we could at least put one sign in the area to keep it down.
32
.."
,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Manders: Some kind of a noise.
Berg: I'm really arguing with myself with that one. I have a real problem with telling kids
on a beach that they have to be quiet.
Lash: I do too.
Manders: And 1:00 in the afternoon.
Berg: And how are you going to enforce it.
Andrews: Well maybe it doesn't have to say be quiet but it might say you know, be sensitive
to the residents or something like that.
Lash: I mean kids will read that sign on the way in and it will be in their head for about a
tenth of a second and when they get out on the dock and in the water, it will be gone.
Manders: But all he's asking is for the sign so he can go down there. That's all he's asking
,...... for.
Lash: ...get his house egged and every other thing if he's down there too much all over the
kids. You know I mean, it's a beach. It's a public beach. Kids go there. It's noisy. I mean
I just don't, I mean I feel sorry for him, I do but I don't know how we can control people's
behavior on a public beach. They're not doing anything that's illegal and this is like the no
smoking in the parks. We're going to say no screaming in the park? Pretty soon we're going
to have a sign that says, no fun allowed. I mean I just don't know how we can do it. I do
not know how to solve this.
Berg: I don't think a sign would do it anyway. It's just like the speed limit. We all know
what the speed limit is but well, I can only speak for myself. But Jan's right, it's going to go
in one ear and out the other. They're going to be out there playing on the raft, oh I wasn't
supposed to say that. That's not going to happen.
Hoffman: We do have somewhat of a similar sign along the trails at Rice Marsh where it
says trail abuts private property. Please respect.
Roeser: Yeah, that's really a good, that's a good sign.
Hoffman: We have a neighborhood park, or neighborhood beach, please respect the adjoining
properties. Something to that nature.
I"""
33
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
'""""
Lash: Something like that. That's good enough. I don't look at it at all as being a cure for
the problem. I don't
Andrews: No. It just gives us a little teeth if we have a problem that just has to get solved.
And I don't think it's to that point.
Hoffman: In speaking with Loren, before I talked with him he just was not willing to go and
talk to the youth that were there about their conduct. And I said, I do that all the time and I
do it more often than not Testing my authority not as a park director but as an. adult figure.
So I'll do that when I'm in the parks and 9 times out of 10 they'll respect the adult figure in
asking them to turn down their music or pick up their glass or pick up that bottle that you
just threw down. So I think you'll find that successful. He still, as you heard tonight, feels
uncomfortable that without some kind of signage backing him up, that he feels uncomfortable
with that. If we put something to the effect, if you have any wording or if I can come up
with some proposed wording for you, we can do that Place it in that location. You could
have given direction to the teenagers on the grass and that's...and he obviously is not want to
be placed in that position but he's purchased a home which is in that position, thus he has put
himself into that position...
" '. Berg: He's really looking for more trouble than he knows. I commented to my wife too this .....",
weekend when we were down there. What person in their right mind is going to start going
down and hassling these kids?
Roeser: I think the daycare thing is a little bit of a stretch too. When we start telling what
kind of people can come down there.
Lash: That was why I asked the question, does this park have the sign that all the other parks
have about littering and dogs and parking on the grass or whatever. Because that's basically
the rules that we worked on for a long time to come up with some consistent rules that we
thought needed to be enforced for everybody's benefit in all the parks. And granted different
parks have exceptions but the problem is this person's home is so close.
Andrews: And we can't change that
Lash: We cannot change that
Berg: And one of the times, I went down there a lot in the last 3 or 4 days. Half a dozen
times and one of the times, right next to the sign, I don't know why they didn't tie up the
dog right on the sign. They don't look at the sign. And if they do. rules. again I'm only
speaking for myself. are for everybody else. There were numbers of cars that were half over
34
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"... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
the line in terms of where they were supposed to be. They were in the handicap spot Signs
just aren't going to do it
Lash: Well I did read a lot of the residents commenting about how they pick up litter while
they're walking their dog.
Berg: Where they're not supposed to be.
Lash: Right. And they're all saying, well we police that I mean we police that. We're
,down there walking our dogs and we pick up the litter.
Andrews: Let's do the litter baskets. Can we do that one?
Lash: Actually I noticed one comment in the last thing that somebody requested and I said,
oh that wasn't. It was the other one. Not the mini one. The other one. The south one.
That was where...
Andrews: How much do those little mesh litter baskets kind of like what they have on golf
,.... courses or whatever. You could move them where you need them to be or whatever. Is it a
few hundred bucks a piece or something?
Hoffman: If you want just a standard park barrel there, I can get them in.
Andrews: About $100.00 a piece or so?
Hoffman: We don't even need to put money in for the park barrel.
Andrews: Alright, let's move on.
Berg: Oh, I have a question about Carver Beach, the south one. I made a note that, do they
have pea gravel in the play area?
Hoffman: Not as of yet, unless. Not when I left last Tuesday.
Berg: Okay, is that budgeted already?
Hoffman: Oh yes.
Lash: But could we move the benches? You said the benches are in need of repair. Could
we move that to '95 instead of '96?
,....
35
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
-"
Hoffman: Yep.
Andrews: Let's do that. Okay, Carver Beach Playground.
Lash: So wait a minute. What kind of a decision are we going to get back to Loren on?
Hoffman: Signage.
Andrews: Let's do the respect the neighbors.
Roeser: See what you can come up with Todd that would...
Berg: That was a pretty decent one over there by the Rice Marsh. I like that
Andrews: Alright. And we're doing park benches and the city will come up with a couple of
baskets for us. Alright, let's move on. Carver Beach playground. Looks like we're in real
good shape there. Any comments that, or any other items we may need?
Hoffman: Oh the fence, I know that Dale Gregory, Park Maintenance Foreman has
recommended that some fencing be looked at. Replacement. There's holes in that fence.
It's been there 20 some years.
....,;
Andrews: How long of a fence is that? That's going to be some big bucks then. Is that a
wood fence or a chain fence?
Hoffman: Chain fence. About a $10,000.00 ticket probably.
Andrews: Let's put it in and see where we end up here.
Hoffman: I'll come up with a more conservative figure. We'll review...
Roeser: We're talking '95 now right?
Andrews: Yep. I should be adding this up as I go here and I'm not. Let's move on to mini
park.
Hoffman: ...for that basketball court and we're grading the play area so we'll grade the
basketball court and the play area this year. What will be in that play area is a swing set,
which is...every day so if you'd like to add, my visualization for that site is not a continuous
play apparatus. Just a slide... '95 or '96.
36
.....,JIll
"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: What's there now?
Hoffman: There will be a basketball court and a swing. .
Andrews: Is a swing ADA okay at this point?
Hoffman: Yep. Well ADA, no. CPSC, yes. Not accessible.
Andrews: Does that mean we have to bring this up to ADA then to provide access then to
the swing? Since we're improving the area.
Hoffman: That's been our policy to date, yes.
Andrews: Do we need to add a budget item for that then?
Lash: I wouldn't do it. I don't think it's worth investing that much money just to put in a
slide.
,.-.... Berg: You're not getting much action down there. You're not getting much requests for
anything on that one, are you?
Lash: We did have a request last year but I would rather invest the money in Rice Marsh
Lake and make that better than to spend a bunch of money in this.
Andrews: Dh I agree. This is just the wrong spot.
Hoffman: You could argue under the guides of ADA that where we take it You can put
down a swing and slide in the spring and if that would want to be contested, then you could
point to Rice Marsh Lake as conforming to our accessibility...
Lash: And could we get by with that? If we could get by with that, that would be my...
Hoffman: I don't know if you can get by with it but I don't know if you're going to get
pushed on the issue either.
Andrews: I just don't think that's a great location to develop. I mean it's very isolated.
Manders: I wasn't under the understanding that every park had to have ADA access as long
as there was some acceptable replacement to that.
,....
37
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
.....",
Hoffman: Every location and development needs to have like opportunities.
Manders: At that location.
Hoffman: Well, yeah. Again I was going through this with the neighborhood...
Andrews: I think we're getting on thin ice on this one if we don't do it right, it will bite us.
I don't want to get nailed for a bunch of money. What's the consensus? Do we want to put
the money into this one or not?
Manders: Just don't put anything in there.
Lash: I vote for that
Andrews: Where we're at right now is we've got pea gravel and a swing and a basketball
court That's where we're on line right now?
Hoffman: Right now the swing's on turf. When we regrade the park, they're putting a new
pipe through there as part of that street project. They're going to grade the park for us.
" They're going to put the basketball pad in and then create a play structure and traditionally .....",
when we grade that pea gravel area, we make it large enough for what we anticipate in the
future so I would ask for some direction. Would there ever be a chance because?
Andrews: Yes.
Hoffman: Okay.
Andrews: Make it big enough to accommodate potential future development. What do we
need to put in for that then, anything? Do we need to put some money in for the pea gravel
and border for '95 then?
Hoffman: Yeah, it would be.
Andrews: Several thousand or?
Hoffman: Yeah. Border wood's the most expensive.
Andrews: What do you think they are, $3,000.00? $4,000.00?
Hoffman: $3,000.00.
...."
38
I"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: $3,000.00, okay. Alright, Chanhassen Hills. Play area expansion is on line for
'95. Based on how our budget's been blown on every play structure we've touched lately, do
we need to up that? We've tended to go over budget or have to cut items in order to get
what we want lately.
Hoffman: Depending on, that may be a typo. That should be in '94...We awarded that.
Andrews: Okay, so we can skip that at the moment.
Berg: That is a beautiful park. Talk about a classic neighborhood park. When those trees get
developed. It's just beautiful.
Lash: Have there been requests for anything else?.
Andrews: Chanhassen Pond Park. It looks like we're in good shape there. Any comments
about Chanhassen Pond Park?
Lash: How much repairs... '96. Have we got a liability...for it?
,.....
'i<.' ,,,,,,Hoffman:,,,There's liability and then also to advance the condition of the stairway and the
trail. It would be our recommendation at some point to continue the asphalt to where it ends
up Laredo. Take the stairway right out and just asphalt that all the way down to the bridge.
And then continue to asphalt the other side of the bridge out to the steps which is there right
now. It's used fairly heavily for access to the school and...at some point in the future replace
the...which is currently there...We're talking about a series of trail improvements. If you
recall the...a little farther north that connects Carver Beach to this area. That's all in a line of
trail systems for people in those neighborhoods to use that. 'There are times when you see
heavy use on that particular section of the trail...but the reason the stairs went in in the ftrst
place was because they were having difftculty maintaining the gravel because of washouts. It
would be the present project, blacktop in front of it. Take the stairs out. Put a contract in for
that and.
Andrews: Any guesstimate on numbers?
Hoffman: Approximately $10,000.00 for the trail. Pheasant Hills cost $8,000.00 this year so.
Andrews: This is a more difftcult area?
Hoffman: A little more.
,.....
39
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
-'
Lash: ...extend trail or whatever.
Andrews: Let's put that in.
Manders: What was that observation platform? I guess just an item of information.
Hoffman: What was it?
Manders: It was a stand that was built as a Boy Scout project right there at the top of the
stairway. So you could walk up there and look out over the park.
Lash: Right off of Kerber. It was a pretty view from up there.
Hoffman: It came off of Laredo.
'Lash: I thought were was one off of Kerber.
Andrews: Move to City Center Park.' Just to give commission members a running tally,
we're at $25,000.00 so far.
--'
Lash: Did you put this for in '95?
Andrews: Yeah, I moved the $10,000.00 in to '95. So we're at $25,000.00 so far. The
warming house is not listed here as a potential project.
Hoffman: Or the hockey rinks.
Andrews: Nor the hockey rinks. Where are we going with that? I mean is that, are we
going to wait until there's some ultimate master city park redevelopment or are we going to
try to do this on a piecemeal basis?
Hoffman: It's been the thought process to date to let those things, maintain them as on an as
needed basis until such time when City Center Park and the City Hall expansion becomes a
reality and that will be it.
Manders: Is the sealcoating on the tennis courts or what is that sealcoating for this year?
Hoffman: Not necessary. That money we put into sealcoating, the material which you see is
the sealcoating has not been done along Kerber but there was an overlay done as part of the
paving management plan for 1994 to receive the overlay. So this money will be shifted to
40
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JII""'. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
sealcoat on the trail.
Lash: What about the tennis courts. That usually needs maintenance.
Hoffman: Yeah, there was talk of maybe maintenance this year or next year...
Andrews: It always bothers me that here we are talking about our capital improvement
program and the majority of the money is going to maintenance. Curry Farms Park. We
have a play area expansion, $5,000.00. Again, I look at that number and it concerns me that
it looks like a very small dollar figure.
Lash: That barely gets, unless we already have all the border and the pea rock in there, that's
about all you're going to get.
Andrews: That's not going to get much.
Hoffman: Can't even get the access through ADA.
""....... Berg: That seems to be an area that gets a lot of use too.
Hoffman: A lot of requests.
Andrews: Again, we're at $25,000.00 so far and we're quite a ways through this already. I
think we should hit, if we're going to do these kinds of projects and get in there and do the
work, we ought to do them right.
Lash: Because if we have to put in border and pea rock and everything, I don't think
$15,000.00 would be out of line.
Andrews: I don't either.
Lash: By the time you put in the border and the pea rock.
Andrews: $15,Ooo.oo's going to be a real ordinary phase I nowadays, unfortunately.
Hoffman: I can't even handle a Phase I. In talking to the vendors the $20,000.00 to
purchase the border wood, get the ADA mat, all those things. $20,000.00. We used to talk
10 to 13. Now we're talking 15... Chan Hills, that is a typo. That was a 1994
improvement...wasn't completed so it...
",-.,
41
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
..-/
Lash: So you didn't have that..
Andrews: I'm lost here. Where are we now?
Roeser: Chan Hills? How we'd get back there?
Andrews: Chan Hills, okay. The 13 is '94?
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: Okay, so we don't need that in our '95. I did not put that in so we're okay.
Greenwood. Do we need to do anything there? I think we're okay there. I was going to
make the comment, do we need new no parking signs but I think we're okay with that.
Herman Field.
Lash: We need to discuss the tennis courts.
Berg: I was going to say, I'm sorry. I'm drifting. Back to Curry Farms for just a second.
They have I think 5 picnic tables down there. It looked 3 of them were in really rough
. shape. I don't know if we want to take a look at perhaps replacing a couple of those.
....;
Lash: Have you been going around to every park?
Berg: Yeah. I decided I better do that.
Lemme: Some of those picnic tables have been moved from other places. When there's a
playground...shift so I don't know where those...
Andrews: Do we need to look at this getting some more tables for our inventory. Yes we
do? What does a picnic table cost? $300.00-$400.00 a pop?
Hoffman: Three or less.
Andrews: How about 10 of them? Is that enough? 20 of them?
Lash: There goes our whole budget.
Andrews: No, that's not that much. 30 tables, $1O,000.00? Do that many?
Hoffman: I don't know that we.
42
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Ruegemer: We need to do a lot more...we need additional tables there.
Lash: Our playground sites, couldn't we get by with just benches?
Ruegemer: As far as the craft projects and.
Andrews: They're nice to have too. I mean I've been to a few of the parks and it's just nice
to have that place to set things down. We'll come back to that one at the end here. We'll
see what we're tallying up because we may want to hit that pretty big. Herman Field. There
was the comment about the tennis court. Who was that?
Lash: That was me. So is this.
Hoffman: That went in.
Roeser: It's up?
Lash: How about the basketball hoop? ...so is that basically done except to add the
",....... playground? And that's all they wanted?
Hoffman: It's not all they wanted but that's.
Andrews: All they're going to get.
Hoffman: Those were the high priority list. The playfields and the picnic sites. The
playfields, the ballfields and the play structure.
Andrews: Lake Ann.
Lash: I see on the suggestions from the suggestion box, and I was the one who took the
suggestion from the woman and I was just there the night before I came when there was... to
install bleachers at Lake Ann for the kids fields or some other type of seating. It does get to
be pretty uncomfortable when you're at Field #1 and you're sitting behind the backstop on
that hill. Is there something that we could, is there some kind of, build in something or tier
something or would that be just astronomically expensive?
Hoffman: Anything we did there other than what we have would be a major initiative. Both
from the standpoint of accessibility and inability of pouring concrete for bleachers.
Andrews: You'd have to rip it all up again too which it seems like every time we get it nice,
,....
43
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
--'
back in again.
Hoffman: It's one of those issues that it's always there. People are always coming at you
about..how it was created in the fust place was an amphitheater type seating on the hillside.
If you were to do a full sized bleacher, you're talking something which is more difficult..
Lash: When you're sitting there for about 2 1/2 hours, it's just not comfortable.
Andrews: Lake Ann, do we have any items there that need to be considered? It looks like
we're in real good shape there. Alright, let's move on. Lake Susan.
Hoffman: Jerry, did you have some comments on Lake Ann?
Ruegemer: I just thought, I've been receiving comments this summer with our field shortage
situation we have been playing other games, baseball games, softball games, that type of
thing on Fields 4, 5. Whatever fields might be available that night. Jan, have you
experienced anything with foul balls coming out in sitting behind, like on the hillside type of
thing? I take comments and calls from people who have gotten hit with foul balls. Stray
foul balls.
...",
Lash: Coming from the new fields? Hitting into the old fields?
Ruegemer: Anywhere, yes. Up on like fields 4 and 5...
Lash: I've had it happen on Field 1 also and I haven't been bothered at all.
Ruegemer: I was just wondering if you on the commission would like to see any type of
extensions on the backstop that would cover over. That would reduce that scenario possibly.
Lash: Is that the foul balls that are coming? Are they coming over the backstop? See if I
ever have to be aware of any, they're ones coming down the first base line and the third base
line. Not the ones going over, not that many go over the backstop. I don't think.
Hoffman: We've had one extremely concerned person that thought we were horribly
negligent.
Andrews: It does sort of put a finishing touch on the ball facility to have that protection. It
would be nice. You can't watch in all directions. You just can't When you're on a
ballfield, the balls coming off of your diamond are easy to catch, especially if you're on the
base lines. But one coming over the back, I mean you have no idea it's coming at you.
44
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11""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Hoffman: Other ballfield complexes have considerably more both in terms of fencing
backstops and netting.
Andrews: Again, I would need to ask any kind of a dollar figure that would help us there.
Hoffman: I can come back with one.
Andrews: How many ballfields are in that complex?
Hoffman: Six.
Andrews: I bet you'd be talking a couple thousand a piece, at least. We need to put
something down just to give us a number to play with. 15?
Hoffman: 30.
Ruegemer: Another element too would be possibly looking at Field #3, possibly fence
replacement and possibly posts realignment...severely bowed out from people leaning against
11""" that for fly balls.
Lash: The back fence then?
Ruegemer: The outfield fence line, right. We had looked at that last year, or two years ago
and I think at that time it was about $10,000.00-$12,000.00.
Andrews: That comes out of maintenance doesn't it?
Hoffman: ...speaking of maintaining it, which traditionally has been taking a front end loader
in the very early spring and popping the frost heave posts back down into the ground, that's
about all the maintenance. We have discussed with the City Council a maintenance budget
and we will be doing that again this year.
Andrews: I don't want to put that in there because we'll get hung for a $50,000.00 bill on
that and that should not be coming out of capital improvement.
Lash: Are you talking just fence material? The posts are already there...?
Hoffman: No. The poles...
11"""
Andrews: Pull the whole thing out and do it over again and that would be a huge project.
45
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....""
Very expensive.
Hoffman: The park and the city ...maintenance and replacement budget, just like vehicles and
autos have to be replaced.
Andrews: We know what other cities do and they do it differently. They have a maintenance
budget for those kinds of items and those are not coming out of their capital improvement
fund and that to me is not what the capital improvement fund was intended to do.
Hoffman: I've preached on that for a long time...almost successful last year.
Andrews: Well if we budget it, we'll never get any relief.
Berg: Right. I think we have to dig our heels in and say here's a need. We weren't able to
fund it out of our CIF. We've got to do something different.
Hoffman: ...we did this last year...
Lemme: Todd, there's some items possibly even with just additional canoes and that kind of
thing. The rnoney...'93 that are not...
--'
Hoffman: Yes...budget it in '95.
Lemme: ...use of canoes is really increasing...
Hoffman: Tonight was intended as your brainstorming session so as you get through it and
we see where you're at, we'll be plugging in all our suggestions and comments. We have a
running list.
Andrews: Come back again.
Hoffman: Yep, rather than...
Andrews: Should we put in like a $5,000 catch all for some of these. That will take care of
some canoes. Cash register. Couple boat or two. I guess that's, we don't need to be specific
here yet but let's do that then. I'll write that in. We're at $45,000.00 so far so we're still
very conservative at this point. Lake Susan Park. A track ride in the budget. Oh, that was
for this year. Did that get done? That's done. Okay.
Lash: We had the ballfield lights last year and they're not there right?
46
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Andrews: That was going to come out of HRA though wasn't it?
Hoffman: The HRA...they would like to see a commitment from perhaps the Legion or the
Athletic Association to put those in and there is not a major initiative out there...to see these
lights go in. They're not banging our door down.
Lash: At Lake Susan. How about at Lake Ann? I hear them all time for out at Lake Ann.
Hoffman: As an initiative out of our department, they're out of the park department.
...commission to go ahead and light more fields, either at Lake Susan or Lake Ann, I think we
need to look at that. As these future needs change, Lake Ann is going to be the site for the
lit complex in the city.
Andrews: Be one of them. And the school property will be another one probably.
Hoffman: The cost has also increased significantly from...was put together. Costs for
lighting at Lake Susan are up around $100,000.00 or better.
,.... Lash: You're saying the HRA is willing to fund it if the CAA and the Lions and other
people will help to fund it?
Hoffman: They'll consider it, sure.
Roeser: But it's baseball lighting, isn't it? We're not talking softball lighting here. Much
more expensive. And if there's no demand for it, there's no town baseball team. Actually
there's only one, the Legion baseball team is what uses it. And they haven't been asking for
it have they?
Ruegemer: There's other groups out there Ron that are certainly using Lake Susan. The
different associations.
Lash: Babe Ruth plays there.
Ruegemer: Yeah. Minnesota Valley and Chaska District baseball just started a new program
this year...
Andrews: We need to, we'll discuss this as this money has a sunset to it. If we don't take it
by a certain date, it's gone.
Hoffman: HRA?
,.....
47
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
~
Andrews: Yep. And I also am not sure if they could spend it at Lake Ann, even if they
wanted to. It's outside the district so we're fairly limited.
Hoffman: My point being is that Lake Susan is a ballfield and has some major potential...but
we do not see any grassroots efforts that you see in the other towns. Victoria is investing
$300,000.00 and the Lions...by the time they get done, they've got half a million dollars into
one ballfield. That's coming from an initiative of local groups. Other small towns you see
that as well. Chanhassen is a different community...whereas families are busier. The
volunteer efforts in the form of grassroots organizations are...not available but they look to
the city to provide more of the financing. More of the coordination and the organization. If
you would like that to be your role, you could simply play that role.
Berg: Have they been asked? Has the CAA been asked if they'd be interested?
Hoffman: Not formally, no. But informally yes.
Lash: I mean I have heard from quite a few different people in the CAA that they'd like to
see more fields lit When they say that to me I always say, we don't have the money so I
think that they probably have heard that enough times now where they're figuring well what's
the point of continuing to ask when they're always being told we don't have the money. --'
They've offered, in the past they've offered to help do fund raising. They've offered to
install them themselves and they told me that and I brought it up, I was told no. We couldn't
allow that because of liability things so I think that there's been interest. It's probably mainly
at Lake Ann that I've heard about it but I think at Lake Susan, that's going to happen in a
couple of years because as our population is growing and there's not the population in that
age bracket yet that they really need to have it at Lake Susan. But in the next I guess 2 or 3
years, that age population, now that it does enough to form these new leagues that are
starting, it's going to be in that age bracket and then there's going to be a demand and
they're going to need to be playing 2 games a night every night And that would be the only
field that would be regulation for Babe Ruth.
Hoffman: It's just a point of economics. $100,000.00 is a heck of an investment and if
you're going to playa couple hours of lit ballgames, 4 nights a week for 3 months, what does
that come out to. So if you don't have unanimous unilateral support for $100,000.00
investment, then that's something that...
Andrews: However, the HRA has got money they don't know what to do with.
Lash: Yeah, it's not like it's our budget money. I'd be more hesitant if it was $100,000.00
off of our budget But if we can get some other sources to pay for it, then eventually we
...."
48
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
won't have to when the need is there. It will be done.
Hoffman: Okay...HRA budget for '95.
Berg: Well then approach the Legion. Approach CAA.
Andrews: Which HRA, that's the downtown HRA district?
Hoffman: Correct.
Berg: And they could decide if they want to spend it someplace else. Let's give them the
opportunity to spend it on lights.
Roeser: A lighted ballpark would really be nice. A baseball park.
Andrews: I'm just trying to help them with their problem.
Lash: Well I know that the need will be there in a few years and if we can head it off, for
once, and not pay for it.
,.....
Andrews: That's 100 grand that we save.
Berg: It will be $150,000.00 when we need it
Andrews: And that will be $150,000.00 we can spend on something else.
Manders: The other question I have on Lake Susan is, is trail access on, I don't know what
side of the lake it is but going up to that development The trail kind of dead ends. Is there
access? I know there's a kind of foot path type access down to the trail but there isn't really
no paved access into that development?
Hoffman: There will be. The developer of Lake Susan Hills West is on the itch to do that.
They're just grading...
Roeser: So they will be connected to Lake Susan by a trail?
Hoffman: All the way down.
Lash: That was one of my questions I got on the 4th of July from somebody.
",....,
Roeser: Yeah, that's one you hear a lot of. Maybe we'd like to be.
49
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
......"
Hoffman: Actually the Chan Hills is more difficult We have the beaver dam and then we
dug it out 3 feet and then we drained the pond and then we had a resident call, where did our
pond go. The beaver had it dammed up to such a point where the trail that was grubbed out
was becoming the new canal for the creek so we had to lower that down to get, complete the
trail to Chanhassen Hills it's becoming more and more complicated.
Andrews: Let's move on.
Hoffman: One thought about either Lake Susan or Lake Ann or any community park if you
will. The city has many nice play structures but we do not have a destination play structure.
Many of the park systems.
Andrews: Like a Chutes and Ladders kind of deal?
Hoffman: Chutes and Ladders. Starring Lake. Those are a highlight of many park systems.
We have 27 parks. We do not have at Lake Susan is one alternative location. The current
system there is very large but it's not something that's dramatic.
Andrews: We're talking huge dollars though for those.
i Hoffman: Yeah, big dollars and if you want to look at that If that's even an interest.
"""""
Andrews: That's a potential alternative to lights. You know you put 100 grand into one of
those deals.
Hoffman: So that's something to think about either on this site or Lake Ann, we don't have a
great spot for it or it could be for a future park in the city. As far as that poster, one of them
says economic activities. If you want to generate some economic activity, have a destination
playground in your city and you'll get a lot of economic activities. Field trip after field trip
after field trip after family car load go to these destination playgrounds. And then they picnic
here and they purchase their products and that in that particular city or location.
Roeser: Put it in City Center Park then. Then we could get it downtown.
Lash: ...some kind of distinctive topography to build into and I don't see that in most of the
things that we have. Lake Ann does but that doesn't look to me to lend itself. I know I
mentioned for Power Hill I wanted to try and do something but that's a neighborhood park so
we don't necessarily want to have car load after car load of families...
Hoffman: Yeah, you're right. Starring Lake has that island and that is a big problem.
50
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: Chutes and Ladders.
Andrews: Let's move on to Meadow Green, which has nothing.
Megers: How much money are we at?
Andrews: Right now our running total is at $45,000.00.
Berg: Is that bleacher that we have marked there for '93, is that the one that's in already or
is that budgeted for the other ballfield?
Hoffman: Second ballfield.
Berg: Okay, good.
Lash: And if somebody needs to say that on the 4th of July too. It's so wet at the southern
field that they need to have some bleachers. Is that where this is going?
,..... Hoffman: Yes.
Andrews: Anything more for that one? Let's move on to Minnewashta Heights. We do
have a play area refurbishment planned at $7,000.00 and again, does that need to be bumped
up to be more accurate as to what we'd anticipate? That seems awful low again.
Hoffman: I don't know that, I'll have to take a look at that. If that's necessary. We've done
a lot of things. Being forced to go ahead and do the compliance with CPSC. We've done a
lot of refurbishing out there...
Andrews: I'll leave it in and we'll see where we end up. It would always be nice to have
you come back and say, we had $7,000.00 budgeted that we didn't need to spend. North
Lotus. We've got a hockey rink scheduled. I guess is there anything that can be done with, I
don't think there can be anything done more for parking there. The neighborhood is over run
with cars whenever there's an event there, which seems to be frequently now.
Berg: Where's the skating rink going in relationship to the parking lot? I couldn't figure that
out.
Andrews: Just down below it.
Berg: The next tier down.
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
...."
Hoffman: But then the hockey ri.nk will replace the skating ri.nk. So you'd be forced to put
the skating down in the ballfields.
Andrews: You could put the skating down, there's another level down from that. There's a
second step down to the east. It's not really being used much right now.
Roeser: Is there a warming house that goes with this too?
Hoffman: This year we'll be putting in a skating ri.nk and electrical service and then we'll
...satellite warming house.
Andrews: I know one thing that before we can put lights up, we'd better have a
neighborhood hearing I mean because I think there will be people that are going to come
screaming.
Lash: I thought it was just like one.
Andrews: One light. Okay, just a skating light in other words.
Roeser: Oh, it's not a lighted hockey rink?
...,,;
Lash: No.
Andrews: Okay, that's different. That's not a problem then.
Berg: Will there be a light in the parking lot as well? Didn't we talk about that once? And
then running power off of that to the skating rink. Is that what we had talked about?
Lash: Well there was a request for a light in the parking lot down there and we decided to
skip it or something, didn't we?
Hoffman: It has to be two lights. One at the parking lot and one at the skating rink.
Andrews: That would be adequate for skating.
Lash: So you're saying before we move on in '95 to the hockey rink with lights, we'd have
to have a neighborhood?
Andrews: No, I was thinking these flood.
52
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: Well if you have a hockey rink with lights...and that's coming next year.
Andrews: We're not talking a lighted hockey rink. We're talking a hockey rink and also a
light to provide this minimal amount.
Lash: Well that's this year. A skating rink with a light. Next year it's a hockey rink with
lights.
Hoffman: I was only speaking to what the program is for '94.
Andrews: Okay. Needs a neighborhood hearing, yeah. Yeah, I would love to see it. We
need something somewhere. $25,000.00's not a lot of money. The one advantage to that
particular park is there's really only one house even close and it's sheltered by trees and
shrubbery. It would be possible to light the rink with little overflow directly into houses.
Lash: But we need that meeting before we...
Andrews: Well I guess we have to gut check here and say, do we really want to do this. I
"...... know we've talked about doing it. I think there is a need.
Berg: Well we've already trimmed down from I think 4 or 5 potential hockey rinks down to
this one.
Andrews: And there was 1 or 2 and we were going to try it and see.
Berg: It was going to be Meadow Green and Carver Beach.
Lash: And that was just skating.
Berg: I thought that was hockey too.
Lash: That was with the warming house. We had about 8 of those spread around and we
trimmed that way back to just 1 up there.
Andrews: So we need to add that $8,000.00 back in or is that now budgeted through?
Hoffman: It's still in there.
Andrews: Okay, so we need to look at the $25,000.00 for a hockey rink.
,.,...
53
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
......",
Lash: What kind of a feel are you getting from...
Hoffman: As far as neighborhood...
Andrews: We have nothing.
Lash: No, I know we have nothing. But is there.
Hoffman: Absolutely...scenario trying to maintain a pond.
Andrews: Fox Hollow's doing the same thing.
Hoffman: Then you get into...
Andrews: It's a lot of money and I'm not a hockey person but I think it's something that, I
think we've got to do it. I think it's an area that.
Hoffman: It's something we can look at.
Lash: Well and it's a natural to put it there because if you're already sending a crew out to .....",
maintain a skating rink, they might as well maintain a hockey rink too instead of having them
at two separate locations. .
Andrews: Another thing we talked about, if you want to make this into more of a multi-use
rink, would be to consider putting some sort of a surface on it for Rollerblade. There is
defInitely, I'm speaking personally here but boy there'd be people that would just go crazy to
have a place they could play roller hockey in the summer.
Manders: That's the strategy we're planning on at the school.
Hoffman: We dropped that because it was an $80,000.00 item.
Roeser: Yeah, I wouldn't consider putting it there. If you're going to put it as a Rollerblade
rink, it would be better if you put it in a city center park or somewhere. This would be kind
of sticking it into a neighborhood.
Andrews: Too small. The other option was, they will get used by the soccer leagues. By
the little 8 year olds and 6 year old groups. They play those little half hockey rink games. It
will get used.
.....",
54
!"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: Well for $25,000.00 isn't even...
Hoffman: I need to investigate lighting and material costs for a rink which would most likely
we would build ourselves and install and...
Andrews: With the $25,000.00 we're at $77,000.00 so far which is still pretty good.
Pheasant Hill Park. We have nothing on our plan for that.
Lash: Let's scratch the double tennis court right off there.
Andrews: Yeah, that's not consistent with our plan.
Lash: We don't have to put basketball in would we?
Andrews: Power Hill Park. We have a play area budgeted at $18,000.00. That seems like a
fairly good number in this case. Do we need to look at upping that at all?
Hoffman: 22 would be better.
,......
Lash: What was the $2,000.00 for?
Andrews: Prep work?
Hoffman: Prep work.
Lash: And then I know this is slated for beyond '96 but I don't even know if it's realistic to
put a picnic shelter over there. I mean I just can't imagine that anybody would ever invest,
knowing what a picnic shelter costs, that we would ever spend that...
Hoffman: You want to put one in the middle of Lake Ann before you do anywhere else.
Lash: So could we just scratch that so people...
Manders: One point of curiosity up there with the parking lot that was put in. Was that
problem ever corrected? It seemed to me that it was not real well done the fIrst time.
Hoffman: Dale Gregory...superintendent has talked to me. It will be corrected by... Chris
Sones was in this afternoon talking with Gary and he stopped by my office to get an update
on Power Park. They're having their neighborhood picnic.
,....,
55
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
'"""'"
Manders: Is that hill going to be open this winter? That was a hot item I know.
Hoffman: If we can make arrangements with the adjoining property owner for runoff. He
don't know if there's sufficient property or not for a runoff. So we need that Not that it
would be a problem.
Andrews: Why can't we get this stuff done the right way?
Hoffman: It was acquired 8 years ago as a remnant parcel. It's...people are really convinced
that this is, if they want to make this a real neat neighborhood park and all it is is two
holding ponds and a remnant piece of land which we're...it was not designed for a park.
Andrews: Alright We're trying too hard in other words. Prairie Knoll Park.
Lash: That was one that somebody said something to me. Yeah, at the 4th of July. They
wanted to know when that playground...and I thought we had discussion not too long ago
about just skipping that altogether and leaving it natural.
Hoffman: Yeah, it's just a piece of land out there that, the concept master plan for the trail
from Dove Court to Powers Blvd and a play structure. And on that side of the road you have -'"
a play structure at Lake Susan being the largest one in the city, so whether or not you want to
invest in that or if you want to make it off the master plans. Part of the 1995 cleaning house
will be an update of those park master concepts so we get a chance to take a...
Andrews: Good, then let's do it then. We'll revisit that one.
Hoffman: There's nothing in it for '95.
Andrews: Rice Marsh. Anything we need to add there? Nothing. South Lotus. We've
poured plenty of money into there, in my opinion. That's another BRA project wasn't it
Lash: Shouldn't it say tennis court?
Andrews: That was BRA. It's in. It gets a lot of use. Sunset Ridge Park. We have
nothing scheduled there. Right now we're at $99,000.00. Park rules signs. Do we need to
add a little bit there for next year, do we have some inventory or?
Hoffman: Wait for inventory.
Andrews: Picnic benches. We said we'd get back to that one. $10.000.00 will get us what,
56
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
about 30?
Hoffman: We were at about 30 at $300.00. $10,000.00, yeah.
Andrews: Is that going to make, is that going to help us? Is that going to get us to a good
spot?
Lash: What is we said $12,000.00 and that includes benches too...
Andrews: Sound reasonable? Let's do it. Boy Scout project, do we have any takers this
year?
Hoffman: None this year...
Andrews: I'll leave the $500.00 in there just because we don't want to deny somebody.
Hoffman: ...$10,000.00, it would be very nice. The problem is, at a minimum we're going
to work with 10 to 15...
r-
Lash: How come we don't bring...tree farm.
Hoffman: The tree farms out there growing...take a bunch of trees out and put new ones in.
Andrews: If Mr. Halla develops his property, hadn't he mentioned a willingness to let us
pluck some trees out of there or was he going to move those himself? Or are they too big?
Are they too big?
Ruegemer: They won't be giving any trees away.
Berg: I got the impression that the city was making him develop that.
,...
Andrews: That's kind of, I was having trouble reading what he was trying to say. I had a
couple items that were not listed here that I thought should be discussed. One is that the city,
or the Park Board has offered matching money to District 112 for putting in some playground
equipment that they've never come and taken from us. District 276 has an interest in doing
some grading to, that they have a football field up at Minnetonka Middle School West. The
track there is, I don't know the word I heard was it's illegal or whatever. They can't even
use it anymore. They want to regrade that parcel so they can put two soccer fields in. Those
fields are used by Chanhassen residents and by a large number of those. I guess I'm
wondering if that's something that we would have any interest in participating in at all.
57
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
...."
Another issue I had was the Highway 101 trail, which is my pet issue. It's the one I want to
keep pushing because if it doesn't get pushed, it's never going to happen. And last year we
had put in $15,000.00 to that fund. I guess I would like to see the Board consider kicking in
some sort of money there to show that it's a continued interest. And then we have the new
school and several new parks coming on line that are going to be hitting us for big dollars.
Lash: Can I, I need to always clarify in my mind how this works. This money is still sitting
here, right?
Andrews: Yeah, these reserves. Yeah, they're sitting there.
Lash: So if we wanted to add to it, we could do that.
Andrews: Yep...
Lash: Now for the general fund reserve, and the land acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta,
how much, will those two figures be totally depleted by the time we're done with Stockdale
and the Lake Minnewashta West parcel that we're getting?
Hoffman: Most likely. The land acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta, whether you have ....."
general fund reserve. How far that goes in, depends on what point we are in the year end
expenditures and revenues. But it will be hit.
Lash: And new school site furnishings, that's just for like the lobby area and that kind of
stuff that we need to do when it's new.
Hoffman: There will be a ton of things going on.
Lash: Is that going to be an adequate amount?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: So what's more realistic?
Hoffman: I don't have an answer for you. It depends on, the City Council will be funding a
variety of things out there for furnishings. What works best...and benches. There's no play
structure budgeted anywhere for the site for the city portion. The city park portion. So once
you start spreading these things out.
Andrews: I'm not sure that's a good place for a play structure.
58
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II"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Hoffman: It's always thought that the siblings to do while the parents are with the other kids
so it's the same concept as Lake Ann.
Lash: City Center too.
Andrews: We could certainly, we're at $121,500.00 now. Last year's budget was 150 and
that was very conservative and I don't know, however the people feel. I think we ought to be
a little more aggressive this year in our budgeting but I think with all these different reserves,
yeah. We could go through the rest of what we have coming and we should designate some
money.
Hoffman: When it involves land acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta what I'll do is,
$225,000.00.
Andrews: But we're hoping the city will be helping us there, aren't we? I mean the Council
will find it's own money to help us there some. Any suggestions how we'd like to allocate
here? I guess I'd suggest that we look at maybe $175,000.00 as a number? Does that sound
reasonable? Does anybody have another suggestion?
"...
,~,,,,,,,,'.Manders:..Whatrdlike to know is what number we think we're shooting for and then we
can deal with these remaining reserves in terms of splitting them off.
Lash: We can't just pick a pie in the sky figure and say well we had $150 this year. Let's
bump it to $175. It has a lot to do with what's coming in and what the City Council's going
to approve.
Andrews: Well we've got 300 coming in already this year. I mean we took in double what
we thought we would take in. The year before we took in less than what we thought we'd
take in. So we had almost a 100% increase in one year. And we're going to be more than
100% increase in one year.
Hoffman: It's all basically...two major, Byerly's at $65,000.00 and the apartments behind
Byerly's which were a total of over $100,000.00 by the time it's done.
Lash: Well I'm just saying, we don't have a lot of money to spend. We can't look at that
and say we've got lots of money now because we're going to be with, what if we do get
tapped for some of this for Minnewashta. I hate to take it all in one time.
Andrews: That goes in the general fund reserve? The excess that will come in this year goes
all into the.
JI'"
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....-I
Hoffman: It goes into the park acquisition and development fund.
Andrews: Which is just a general fund?
Hoffman: It's a capital improvement fund.
Lash: But it's our fund.
Hoffman: Absolutely.
Andrews: Where does that show on this fund 410 then? Is that anywhere? Is it a separate
item or?
Hoffman: It's a separate budgeted item.
Andrews: And it has no money in it now or?
Hoffman: No. It has...
Andrews: I guess that should be shown here because that kind of paints a different picture of....."
what the future could be. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't put money in there. I think we
should but.
Hoffman: I can get you the sheet...somewhere.
Andrews: Well knowing that there's $400+ thousand dollars in that. And it appears as
though we're going to probably contribute somewhere in the neighborhood of another
$150,000.00+ to that fund. Not including costs of the Minnewashta Park acquisition. That's
an unknown at this point still.
Hoffman: It's...and that's $30,000.00. You're going to write the check within the next 3
months.
Andrews: I guess my question Todd would be, are we allocating only the dollars that we
receive over the 1995 year or are we allocating the excess collected this year plus what we
receive next year?
Hoffman: You have the discretion to ask the City Council to do whatever you like.
Andrews: Okay. Boy, you don't make this any easier.
.....",
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Hoffman: You can say hey, we've collected another extra $200,000.00. We'd like to spend
it all this year. Or you can say we'd like to be conservative and we think there's going to be
a lot of other things coming up in the city and we want to be penny pinchers and that's the
line you've taken.
Andrews: Well I think that's the best way to do it because if you spend it, you don't have it
when y~u need it.
Hoffman: You've been, made it possible to go ahead and purchase this land west of Lake
Minnewashta. You guys have been conservative since you built the Lake Ann shelter. If you
would have blown that money every year, you'd be begging to get that money for that.
Andrews: We're talking about Mr. Halla.
Lash: And that's really how we've been able to do almost anything.
Hoffman: Build it up and spend it.
;""'" Lash: Because we could never get a big ticket item...
Andrews: I guess to make things simple, I guess I'd say we're in the $150,000.00+ position
cashflow as of this year. You can take $100,000.00 of that right off the top and say, put it in
the general reserve. You know we don't know what we're going to do with that. I mean
anybody could propose alternatives here. We could go on all night saying well why don't we
put it here or there but general fund gives us the ability to designate it anyway we want it. I
mean we could designate it all to the general fund and just divvy it up later when we know
what the final numbers are.
Lash: Well I don't know that the City Council would. They're going to want to see why
we're asking for x number of dollars.
Andrews: Yeah, you're right. I mean if we don't designate some of it, Minnewashta's a
good example. I mean we could designate another $75,000.00 toward that project without
any problem.
Hoffman: Then you could designate $100,000.00 or $50,000.00 for initial levels in 1995.
,.....
Lash: Right, that's what I'm thinking. I have a list of some things that we need to designate
money for too so we need to think of all these different things that just as we've been talking,
obviously we need to bump the new school site thing. I don't know how much but it's going
61
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....."I
to be probably at least double that And then your, at Minnetonka, we have demand for
soccer fields and if Chan residents have access to that, if we want to contribute to that, I
don't have a problem with that We have the Minnewashta park that's going to be minimum
that we'll want to do out there is grade and seed it right away. That's a chunk of coin. And
then the Halla property and Bandimere development. Maybe we need to start just like we did
with Lake Minnewashta. Just each year designate a park and the same thing with TH 101.
You know bump that each year by however much we possibly can until we finally get it built
up to where it looks like we're serious about it and we can at least get support behind us and
maybe get help from somebody else to help us do it But it's the only way we're going to
move on.
Andrews: Let's start at the top. Try to see if we can come up with some numbers. Lake
acquisition west of Lake Minnewashta. We know we're $75,000.00 short there. Is it
responsible to assume that the Council will pick up any shortage?
Hoffman: We have a grant application in for LA WCON.
Andrews: That's very speculative, correct?
Hoffman: Very speculative, yes.
....""
Andrews: Alright I propose that we allocate $75,000.00 of our surplus towards that project
Manders: We're going to need it
Andrews: Yep, we're going to need it I mean that's a minimum we're going to, we know
we're going to need that.
Lash: Is Stockdale done? We don't need to worry about that anymore? That's a done deal
as far as money.
Hoffman: To fund the purchase. It's coming right out of this fund. It's not even on here.
Lash: Okay, so we need to add that on here.
Andrews: How much is Stockdale? Remember him.
Hoffman: I've got a figure here for you. $150,000.00.
Andrews: Well that's one of those we do some now and some later I think or totally on to
62
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
that one.
Lash: How much do we have to pay this year up front?
Hoffman: We did that about 3 years so it'd be $50,000.00 a year, was at least...proposal.
Lash: So we can cut it to $50,000.00.
Andrews: They could take 50 now?
Hoffman: Yes.
Andrews: That would leave us, now you said we have about $300,000.00 in cashflow this
year to date? Or is that projected?
Hoffman: To date cashflow you have the exact number there. It's 300 and some thousand.
Andrews: So we're going to even have excess of that
r"
Hoffman: You're going to total out at $350 to $375,000.00.
Andrews: Okay. I guess I would say that we have approximately another $50,000.00 of
excess cashflow for '94 that we could still allocate somewhere else before we dip into our
projected regular $150,000.00 cashflow projection for next year. So we could pick another 50
to go someplace. We know that the school site's going to demand dollars.
Hoffman: I'm just laying low right now for who's going to purchase. We know tables and
chairs and that type of thing, that the City Council will purchase. As far as recreational or...
that's all going to add up. So we're going to have to have some money there.
Andrews: Why don't we double it to $30,000.00.
Manders: At least.
Andrews: That's $15,000.00 more. That leaves us with $35,000.00 more left.
Lash: Should we add another $5,000.00 to TH 101?
Andrews: It's a token but yeah, I think we ought to do that. That leaves us with 30. This
speculative, possible proposal to get somebody to grade and possibly help us improve
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....""
Bandimere, I don't know if we want to allocate or even consider allocating any money toward
that but that could be a real nice arrangement. H we could find somebody that's willing to
take half that on or most of it on. I don't know if you'd want to consider putting anything in
the budget for that.
Lash: What do we have left?
Andrews: We've got about 30. Out of excess cashflow. We haven't even talked about really
the, we're sitting at $121,500.00 for '95. So we've got about another 30 to allocate for '95.
Lash: I was looking at that $50,000.00 price tag right off the bat for the Stockdale.
Andrews: Yeah, we're going to be hit for that for 3 years in a row.
Lash: And that hasn't come out of that yet.
Andrews: No, no. I've put that in. That's figured in.
Lash: That is figured in? Stockdale.
Andrews: Yeah. So we've still got 31.
-"'"
Roeser: Put it in Bandimere then.
Hoffman: Yeah Bandimere. H this other thing doesn't come through.
Andrews: We're going to need it someday.
Roeser: Yeah, it's going to happen there.
Hoffman: Something's going to happen there and right now the last figure, hard cost figure
was $800,000.00 to develop Bandimere Park per the concepts which were in the drawings so
that's a million dollars easy. So if you go to a referendum, if you do this open space
referendum and you tag the development Bandimere on there and you say, the city Park
Commission's got $250,000.00. We need $750,000.00 more, that's going to get you a lot
farther than saying, we just haven't planned for it. We've owned it for 5 years...so if you
start chunking away some money, it's going to look better.
Andrews: That leaves us with about $30,000.00 more in our typical year planning. We've
been kind of staying at the 150 level for the last several years. $30,000.00 more roughly.
64
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
Lash: How about the Minnewashta property out there. Is that going to be coming soon
enough that we would want to have that graded and seeded.
Hoffman: Not this year. Graded and seeded next year which would be '95.
Lash: That's what I mean.
Hoffman: ... '95 item.
Lash: So how much would we need?
Hoffman: It depends on how fast you want to push it in.
Lash: Face it you know, we can't drag our feet on that one. I mean that's been so long in
coming and they're so short out there that once we get that property, we need to try and at
least move forward a little bit each year on it.
Hoffman: The last similar contract for a parking lot grading and seeding was at Herman
JI""". Field. That was $50,000.00.
Andrews: Let's kick 25 into that one. Does that make sense? That leaves us with about
$5,000.00 of slush and.
Lash: What if, for this Minnetonka West Jr. High.
Andrews: I think we can stay out of that one, to be honest. I think between the District and
the soccer clubs or whatever, I think they'll find a way to get that one done, if it's really
meant to be. To be honest, I think if I were going to try to push something that made sense
for the city of Chanhassen, I'd be trying to convince them to put money into a joint project at
Bandimere. Because if you could get some, if you're going to get the equipment up there to
start the level, you might as well keep going as far as you can.
Lash: But $5,000.00, that's pretty lame.
Andrews: Yeah I know but it's, if you've already got equipment up there, $5,000.00 more
could make a big difference you know as far as the number of soccer fields you could get. It
could be 1 or 2 more just to have that one more day or two more days worth of grading done.
I guess I'd just propose that we tuck the balance away into a general reserve.
,....
Hoffman: What did we just put in Minnewashta development?
65
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
-"
Lash: $25,000.00.
Andrews: Actually I'd like to see that $5,000.00 go to Highway 101. I guess I think that's a
pretty minor commitment to say that we're going to go from 15 to 20 but
Hoffman: Maybe that's something where having that in the budget is a good issue. The trail
is not going to wag the dog out there. The road is going to have to happen in order to put
the trail bed down so our best avenue is to continue to lobby the county and...
Andrews: I was at a meeting with some county officials and it's the same old story. You
know everybody says talk to the guy over here. Although the State is coordinating meetings.
They're talking about planning so maybe something's fmally going to move on it. I know
several of the people that are in charge of the projects are nearing retirement so maybe
they're hoping to go out with some sort of an accomplishment. I don't know.
Lash: What about Stockdale? Is Lundgren grading that for us?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: So...over there, we need to bump some...
-""
Andrews: We put 50 in. That's just to buy it though.
Lash: But we only have $5,000.00 left. It's not like $5,000.00 is going to.
Andrews: Throw it into the reserve and we'll find something.
Lash: That or we should bump it back into the school thing.
Hoffman: We're talking about $5,000.00 now.
Andrews: Just put it in the reserve. We'll spend it someplace.
Hoffman: We'll rehash this and put together...establish tonight and see if there's anything left
after that...
Andrews: Thanks everybody for helping to get through that quickly.
66
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"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS:
Andrews: Are there any Commission Member presentations at this time?
Berg: I've got one. The old Red-E-Mix site. The old cement site. Is anybody else
concerned about the fact that it's turning into a car junk yard?
Andrews: Yeah I am.
Berg: I mean we're talking about what people's impressions are when they drive into this
city. Why are all those junkers out there?
Hoffman: Close to the Hanus building?
Berg: 'Yeah. Well, quite a ways from it actually.
Hoffman: Yeah, out there on Highway 5 right now. Down farther. It's part of the
arrangement for the construction or reconstruction of that whole district. The HRA made a
,.... deal where they could store those on an interim basis while the...construction. The same
question's been asked at the City Council.
Berg: Because their numbers are multiplying it seems.
Hoffman: I'll ask one of the Council members. Last night the City Council reviewed some
sketch plans on what that would look like. It seems that they're warming up to the idea of
having that as an open space. Walking trail, park like setting. The budget is about
$160,OOO.OO...1andscape and walkways and greenery. That type of thing. So the thought
process of whether or not that should be some sort of commercial is pretty much gone by the
wayside. You'll see it be an extension of that trail overpass as it comes down through there.
Roeser: How about the trail? Is that going to be completed? The one going to Eden Prairie
and the one going toward Chaska.
,.....,
Hoffman: I had two points of interest. That has been put on hold by the engineering. Water
Resources department. They would now like to complete a detention pond in the far eastern
reaches of the city of Chanhassen. As they did that street plan, they said we're going to do
the pond and then they said, no. We're not going go do the pond so that pond is out of the
program. Now they're saying that we would like the pond so the engineering department is
now going through the DNR permitting process to get permission to dig that pond this winter.
...backing down with a huge backhoe down that trail alignment this winter so if we...
67
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
....",
Roeser: What about the one towards Chaska? The Hennepin County park one?
Lash: Yeah, that was my question too. Did that go to Council?
Hoffman: ...and they've cut the new alignment to go around the Deafenbaugh and they will
be putting some gravel down on that so it will be a gravel trail but it won't be blacktopped
until next year. The bad news there. As far as the other trail that Chaska...their City Council
and our City Council budgeting. We drafted a permit agreement with the Hennepin County
Regional Rail Authority and the City Council approved that last night. It was carried over to
the county's meeting this morning. As far as I know, they approved that and we have a
formal agreement with the contractor to come in and perform the work prior to September 1.
Roeser: When?
Hoffman: Prior to September 1. It would be...you can't get people off of 212 so we're
putting it in there and we're effectively barricading it to upgrade it.
Roeser: That's fme. What I was worried about was those guys stopping us somewhere along
the line.
Lash: What about our lack of vote or whatever you want to call it from the last meeting?
......""
Hoffman: On the snowmobile?
Lash: Yes.
Hoffman: 3 to 3.
Lash: Has that gone on?
Hoffman: The City of Eden Prairie has positioned themselves that they will not move until
we move. So they're not going to say yes or no to the snowmobiles to make our job any
easier.
Lash: But if we move, it may make an impact on what they decide.
Hoffman: From what I hear City Council's going to send it right back down to me.
Lash: But they haven't made that decision yet.
-fill
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
"Hoffman: No. That will be on an agenda, City Council agenda for August 22nd so
everybody will make the big preparations and they may just say, 3 to 3 on the Park
Commission.
Roeser: Oh, they don't know about that yet?
Hoffman: Well not officially. The Mayor knows about it and he said that from a personal
level...
Andrews: That's fine. I mean we did what we could do.
Lash: Well we need to have a full commission.
Andrews: Any other?
Lash: I heard, and I don't remember where I heard this but I heard it went to Chaska and
that they said that they would approve it so.
,...., Hoffman: Well it's going to the City Council on the 8th of August. Their Park Commission
said...
Andrews: I just had one issue that looking at the revenue reports for Lake Ann and the
number of comments from people who have used the park about the parking permits, I just
want to comment that my position is shifting and I'm looking forward to discussing that later
this year because I think again, I think Jan you're kind of shifting too with me.
Lash: Yeah, but 1'm still waffling I guess. I could live with a compromise.
Andrews: I guess one of the concepts I had is when any mailing goes out to the Chanhassen
residents like the sewer bills or whatever. Whatever every citizen gets, is to send them all a
sticker and say every citizen gets in free.
Lash: Dave and I kind of kicked that around on the 4th of July...won't get into this but we
were wondering if maybe a solution would be that if you're a resident you get a permit. If
you're not a resident, you pay a non-resident fee for a permit or you pay a daily parking fee.
But does that then even pay to have someone be sitting in the booth checking and that kind
of stuff unless the non-resident fee is adjusted.
Andrews: But I think we'd probably have somebody in the booth there anyway. At Lake
Ann at least to watch that park.
,.-..
69
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
...,."t
Lash: See I look at the revenues and I think well, it's something you know. But yet I don't,
and the other thing is we've eliminated kids...have a permit Maybe we need to say if
somebody's rented the shelter and they've already kicked out money for the shelter, if they're
coming in for that, then they're eliminated but you know pretty soon you start eliminating
enough different groups that it doesn't warrant even continuing at all so.
Andrews: We'll talk about it more but I just, reading those comments just kind of, I'm kind
of shifting from the get all the revenue you can to we've got a nice facility. The people of
Chanhassen deserve to use it and I don't think, I personally don't think the citizens should
have to pay to get in anymore.
Manders: Typically we're making up the different for non-resident usage by the fees we're
charging for them to use it.
Hoffman: Philosophically something to bounce around. You can go out and use the city's
lakes, park system. This discussion has gone on for years and years and years. The City of
Minneapolis pays to maintain that thing yet the entire 7 county metropolitan area enjoys it
So here we're talking in a microcosm of what they're experiencing and they don't think they
can any longer justify the amount of dollars they've put into the city's lake trails system for
all of us to go to enjoy. If we want to...non-residents, the City of Minneapolis may...
....",
Lash: Yeah but there are a lot of places that you do have to pay. To get into Hyland, you
have to pay and that's just basically...fee or whatever.
Hoffman: City parks, except with the exclusion of beaches, it's all regional where you have
to pay.
Lash: So what's the...
Andrews: Any other presentations?
Hoffman: Issues on the trail and that we have some lobbying for. The City Council, they'll
eventually make the decision. The stretch of trail just west of Byerly's along Powers. So
you go from the new extension of West 78th. Right down the west side of our front street
here and you go up to Saddlebrook, that's where a road should not have been built. It's
bermed up so if we convince them that we needed to put the trail alongside there so they
extended their fIll section to do that and now they're fearful that that is...so they're effectively
surcharging the old material which was underneath there and it's going to...putting in a
$60,000.00 retaining wall and $20,000.00 pipe rail, there's about a $10,000.00 bill to do some
tests where it's a 90 day test where they put some pipes down to test how much that is
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,....., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - July 26, 1994
moving. And so it was decided today at a staff meeting to go ahead and do that because
that's... That trail was to be done absolutely June 15th of this year. And now it will not be
done by June 15th of next year. The costs are mounting up to you know $150,000.00-
$170,000.00. Now to do that section of trail down through that area so that's a big buck item
but it's a major thoroughfare. You've got Powers Blvd coming down here into your
downtown.
Lash: And who's having to pay that?
Hoffman: That's their project there. The Powers extension and West 78th Street extension.
Powers extension coming up onto Highway 5. So that's a project cost of the roadway but it
will become an issue before the City Council if you would like to expend those kinds of
dollars. I said absolutely. You did it to make the road. It involves excavating back down
and putting in a geotextlle grid material every...would even be necessary. So they put this
grid material down and they compact it underneath and then need to fill upon that...It's all
expensive construction but if you put in a road in the middle of swamp, you have to...
There's always pressure. You know this road project, the road. Well absolutely, you have to
build the road. But trails are still put off to the side without...justify $150,000.00 for a 2
.,,-..... block, 3 block, 4 block stretch of trail.
Andrews: Well keep us posted on what the whispering in the hallway is on that. Any other
presentations? Any highlights? Or we need to approve the Minutes.
APPROV AL OF MINUTES: Roeser moved, Megers seconded to approve the Minutes of
the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated June 28, 1994 as presented. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Lash moved, Berg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
,.....,
71