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PRC 1994 09 27 !"'" CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 27, 1994 Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews. Jan Lash. Jim Manders. Ron Roeser. Fred Berg. Jane Meger. and Dave Huffman STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman. Park and Recreation Director; Jerry Ruegemer. Recreation Supervisor; Dawn Lemme. Recreation Supervisor; and Michelle Braun. Recreation Intern VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. CONSIDER REQUEST OF SOUTHWEST METRO TRAIL ASSOCIATION TO UTILIZE SOUTHWEST REGIONAL LIGHT RAIL TRAIL ROUTE AS A SNOWMOBILE ROUTE. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. r Andrews: Before we move on to asking people from the audience to speak. I'd like to just take a moment here to again emphasize or re-emphasize what Todd said. If you have spoken at our prior meeting and you wish to speak tonight. I wish you would keep your comments to an absolute minimum and summarize your position. I would not like to have a verbatim recitation of all the details. facts and figures because I don't think we need those. We have those in our packet for us to read. which we all have done. If you are speaking for the first time. please do feel free to come forward and state your name and address and state your viewpoint regarding this issue. At this time I'd like to ask if there's anybody who wishes to step forward and speak. Brad Blomquist: Hi. My name is Brad Blomquist. I'm the trail coordinator for the Chanhassen Club for the year '94-95. Huffman: Quick question. Have we heard from you before? Brad Blomquist: No. Huffman: Okay. I mean I'm not trying to be rude about this but we've had 17 pages of this and Leroy' s done an outstanding job and unless there is something brand new. And again. I'm not trying to be rude but we have heard from everybody. And I apologize for this but. Okay. but do you understand what I'm saying though? ,..... I Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ~ Brad Blomquist: Okay. I won't hash over what I think is. Huffman: Because a lot of it's been hashed over. I mean I'm serious. And I'm just saying, we've heard a ton so, I want to listen to it but we've heard. Brad Blomquist: Okay. I'll skip a couple items then. Huffman: Thank you. Skip a lot of items. Lash: Stick to the new stuff. Huffman: Yeah, because we've heard it. Brad Blomquist: Has there been any discussion whether or not this is going to be designated snowmobiling only, or not designated for cross country skiing? Andrews: No. That has not been determined. Brad Blomquist: Okay. I guess if it was designated for snowmobiling, I guess that's what I'd recommend. I mean if people want to cross country ski, they can cross country ski but it ......" wouldn't be designated as a ski trail. Andrews: I don't think we're considering to designate it a ski trail but I also don't think we're here to restrict it to snowmobiles only. I don't think that would be, I can't speak for everyone but I don't think we could support an exclusive use situation here. I understand what you're saying though. But our intent is not to make it a groomed cross country trail, no. It's not. It's not going to happen. Brad Blomquist: Okay. But yeah, if it was a designated ski trail, then that would be a whole new ball game because that's kind of what I wanted to clarify. Andrews: No, our intent was not to designate. Brad Blomquist: Okay. That's all I had. Andrews: Thank you. Lash: That was great Brad. ...." 2 If"". Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Huffman: Thank you. No, we want to give you that opportunity but honestly we've got 17 pages here and a 2 1/2 hour City Council meeting and if you've got something new, we'd love to hear it. Brad Blomquist: There is really nothing new. Huffman: Alright. I'm not trying to cut anybody off but we've got reams of stuff. Thank you. Andrews: Thank you. Is there anybody else who wishes to speak? Is there anybody on the commission here that wishes to state their viewpoint or any comments at this time? Berg: I've got some questions. Maybe because I wasn't here when we took the initial vote. Maybe my questions have been asked but I guess I have to ask them of the snowmobilers and/or the neighborhood folks who are here. My first one. What is the closest the trail is to a home? How close is the nearest home to the trail? "'"' LeRoy Biteler: I can address that. I'm LeRoy Biteler. I'll speak for our club. It's difficult... to figure that out. As I mentioned in the letter, there is no home that could be legally any closer, to the best of our knowledge, than 80 feet from the trail. If I were to give you an estimate, I would say most of the homes are 200 feet plus away from that trail. That's being very realistic. Huffman: But we don't know. LeRoy Biteler: We don't know that, exactly. Hoffman: Here they are. Those two are about the closest. This one and this one. Berg: What's the scale? Hoffman: This is 1 inch equals 100 feet. So 150 feet then. Berg: Next question then in relation to that. The sheet that you gave us on the decibel test, I don't recall. Was it 50 feet that these were tested? These 10 machines were tested. 50 feet? LeRoy Biteler: Ah yes it was. If"". Berg: Okay, the closest is 80 feet. Can you give me the approximation of what the decibel rate would be? How does it drop? Does it drop proportionately per 50 feet? 3 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ...."I Andrew: No, it's expentionally. LeRoy Biteler: It's what? Andrews: It's expenetionally. So it would be twice the distance is 1/4 the volume. LeRoy Biteler: And if you look at the first information, piece of information, letter on decibel range contained in the Minnesota State Educational brochure. It says on there, clear over to the right, after every so many distances it doubles or something like that. Do you have that packet with you? Berg: Yes. LeRoy Biteler: Okay. I can show you that if you give me a second. This piece right here. This is what you want to read. That's the only one I have. You'll have to read that verbatim. I think that will help answer your questions. Berg: Well when I saw this, it didn't make any sense to me either and it doesn't make any sense as I'm looking at it now. Maybe you can interpret it for those of us who aren't used to looking at such. """"" LeRoy Biteler: Okay. Let me get a copy. Berg: Here, you can have this one back. I've got mine too. LeRoy Biteler: Well I think you need to look at that while I interpret that. Let's take a look, look prior 1972, the bottom of the page. Snowmobiles traveling at 20 mph had a decibel rating of somewhere around about 80. Do you follow that off to the left? At 10 mph it had a decibel rating of around 72. That's machines in 1972. I think we can jump, if you understand that, you could jump right from 1975 and look at 20 mph. The decibels were about 73. There it is. At 10 mph in 1975, snowmobiles from that vintage were 65. If you took that vintage of snowmobile at full throttle, decibels are by law not to exceed 78. Most of them we see out there today are 75 and older. Berg: Most, 90%? LeRoy Biteler: I'd say 90%. Sure. That's almost 20 years old. Berg: I don't know if you know the answer to this one but these 10 machines that were tested, were they in pretty good shape? Were they pretty fmely tuned? --' 4 ,.... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 LeRoy Biteler: Absolutely. Berg: And assuming that not every snowmobile on this trail is going to be as finely tuned, whafs the ratio then? How much decibels can we except if the machine is not tuned properly? LeRoy Biteler: Boy, thaf s like asking how many automobiles have poor mufflers on them? Berg: A lot? A little? Could I tell the difference if I was up in a home 80 feet away? LeRoy Bite1er: r d say you may have 10%. Berg: Okay. I think that's all the questions I have at this point. Manders: I didn't have any questions but I had a couple brief comments. Andrews: Okay. "..... Manders: My primary concern with this decision is a safety concern, and that's all I have to say. Lash: Safety for who? Manders: Safety for the people on the trail and the crossing roads. So whomever's on the trail and where they cross roads is, there's no, I mean it's Bluff Creek is the one I'm thinking of that you can go straight through that and that could be a real accident potential there. Depending on how if s set up. Andrews: Any other comments? I have none. Berg: I have a couple comments in addition to my questions, if I'm not out of order. Andrews: Please. Berg: My concerns are the curfew. I'm not sure that the 10:00 is something I'm comfortable with. I'd like to see if we move to allow this open to snowmobiles, r d like to see us talking about a reduced speed limit through that area. Again referring to the decibel chart. I noticed that on the newer machines, 4, 6 and 7 in particular, there's a considerably drop off in decibel level when drop from 40 to 20 and I would be in favor of seeing that type of speed limit ,..... there amongst these homes and have it well posted so there's no doubt about what it is that 5 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 .....", we're expecting. And I have a question about the enforcement. To me the enforcement is just as important from the safety point of view and the noise point of view. Is this enforcement only going to be on complaint only or can we expect that there will be regular patrol, if there is such a thing, on this trail. Is there now any type of patrol system on these trails or is just if someone calls in with a complaint? Hoffman: ...club members might be able to speak more eloquently to this. Lash: I know there are DNR officers out occasionally. Hoffman: Yeah, they set up an occasional check point but I would say the majority of the enforcement is on complaint. Andrews: My question regarding enforcement would be, who's responsibility is it? I mean this is a Hennepin County project in Carver County being passed over to Chanhassen. So who's going to be responsible for enforcement? Hoffman: City of Chanhassen. Lash: So if the snowmobile club were to cooperate with the enforcement, would they, I mean they're citizens, they would not have, I'm assuming they wouldn't have the authority to actually ticket anyone or do anything like that. Would we be able to provide public safety officers who could actually ticket people or how could we see that that enforcement is, especially initially each season when people need to be reminded that there are restrictions. Who would have the authority to actually give citations? ...", Hoffman: A licensed police officer for the city of Chanhassen or Carver County Deputy or an official from the Department of Natural Resources. Lash: And do you think that we could get cooperation from them to work with the snowmobile club to provide enforcement each season? Hoffman: I'm sure there would be cooperation... Andrews: I guess one point would be there that if a disturbance, you know it may not be a snowmobiler so let's not say that but if somebody you know riding a mini-bike through there in the summer, by the time an enforcement officer could get there, that person could be miles away. Same would go with snowmobiles. If somebody calls at 3:00 in the morning. -' 6 J1I"" Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Huffman: We're going to have the same issue regarding, we've got dogs running through the park... Andrews: Yeah, I mean it's hit and miss at best. Huffman: We can argue that 50 ways. You know it's in many cases everywhere. Lash: Do you have more? Berg: Well my concern I guess is not with the snowmobile club. I wouldn't want to create that impression. My concern is with the road snowmobilers out there who aren't going to be affected by the rules and regulations of the snowmobile club that seems to be pretty conscientious. I guess my only last thought would be that if we can't be sure of the type of enforcement that we think is appropriate, then this should be an issue that is looked at every year. Andrews: I had the same idea. That this perhaps could be looked upon as a conditionally renewable privilege if granted. Any other comments? ,- Lash: My only comment that I had was that in forming my decision for tonight, I used our mission statement as my guide and just for the record, for anyone, any of the residents. Either snowmobile club members. I think they need to be aware that our mission is to provide quality recreational opportunities for all citizens of Chanhassen in a financially responsible manner while preserving natural amenities and I used that as my guide. Andrews: I'd like to have a motion. Huffman: I'd like to make a recommendation, if it's alright, that the Park and Rec Board recommend to the City Council the Regional Light Rail Transit Route running through Chanhassen be made available to snowmobiles during the winter month. No other motorized vehicles will be allowed. Signage, hours of use, speed limits and other enforcement rules will be worked out with the Department of Safety officials. City officials and other pertinent folks after City Council approval. Meger: I would just add to the motion too that we put it on a one year trial basis. I""" Huffman: I remove my motion then and somebody else is going to have to say that. I want to get this thing done and if we keep going back and forth, back and forth, what will inevitably happen is that we will have more developments come in here and it will be gone in 3 years. I would like to see this really be put down. We're not asking to go through 7 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ...."" neighborhoods. They're not asking to move them through other areas and it will turn into Eden Prairie. I would really like to see this happen. We could put enforcement, we can put speed limits and signage but if we keep putting conditions on everything in terms of a year's time and a year's time, a year's time, we're going to go to these battles time and time again. Andrews: Okay. For the record then, that amendment is rejected by the maker of the motion. Is there a second to the motion as it was originally stated? Roeser: I second it. Andrews: Okay. With a second. Is there any further discussion of that motion? Huffman moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the Southwest Metro Trail Association's request to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile route during the winter months. No other motorized vehicles will be allowed. Signage, hours of use, speed limits and other enforcement rules will be worked out with the Department of . Public Safety officials. All voted in favor, except Berg, Manders and Andrews who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 3. -" Hoffman: It will go to City Council on October 10th. Andrews: Thanks for being here to make sure this didn't go deadlock again. REVIEW RECOMMENDATION TO THE CITY COUNCIL TO CONSIDER A 1995 PARK. OPEN SPACE AND TRAIL ACOUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT REFERENDUM. Hoffman: Mr. Andrews, I have nothing to add to the report. I'm waiting to hear from the commission in this regard. Andrews: Does anybody have any comments to add to this? If not, Todd do you need a motion to support this recommendation? Lash: Wait a minute. I know I don't know what's going on. So we're just asking for them to say yes to a referendum when we're not putting down clearly what it's for and how much it's going to cost? 8 --' ,.... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Hoffman: Asking them to consider to investigate in 1995 which would include all of those other things. Lash: Okay. So we're just asking the City Council for what? To approve us to think about it? Hoffman: The recommendation is to recommend the City Council investigate a 1995 park, open space and trail acquisition and development referendum of a scope yet undetermined and proceed to appoint a task force to expedite this process. Lash: You ultimately want them to appoint a task force to put together a package. Hoffman: Right. And if you do not approve of that recommendation, you can pull out the task force part and just ask that they investigate a 1995 referendum. They may, if they do not feel totally comfortable with that, then they may ask that those facts, figures, numbers, be drawn up but it does take a considerable amount of time, effort, to do that. So if you know...don't have the consensus to go forward, I'm not going to put that time and all the other city officials...necessary to pull those things together to work prior to having a vision "..... sort of agreed to. Andrews: I strongly support a task force because it will broaden support. Make it more likely this may pass. The more people that are involved with the concept, I think the more likely it is to develop support. Lash: Now I would want the task force though to work through us, whether it has Park and Recreation Commissioners on it or not. I was here when the task force for the community center was working and that was just a separate task force and we had no, I really felt like we had very little or no input into it and it just went from the task force to the City Council and I think if it's something that affects us this directly, which it does, it needs to come through us first. So if they're not tracking with the direction we want to go, we want to be able to have some control over them before it goes on to City Council. Andrews: Perhaps we could state then that the task force, the City Council would ask the Park Commission to form a task force of citizens and park board members. . That would help take care of that. Councilman Wing: I want to hear what was discussed before... Andrews: This idea of a referendum? ~ 9 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Lash: I believe it was in the Minutes. Andrews: I think it was, yes. Lash: I think you know Dick to tell you my own personal feeling. I think there was unanimous support and I think we're sort of feeling like we're in a position, or I feel like I'm in the position that we can either ask for this and try to accomplish some things that we would like to see get done, or they will never get done because we just do not have the funding to do some of the things that we would like to do and this is the only route that we have to do it. So it's sort of a pinch. I don't like the idea personally of a referendum but it's the only way that I can see that we can get it done. Councilman Wing: Well it's not a maybe. It's an absolute. The problem is this referendum with the gravity appears to be...south end because we're putting the pressure on increased rules and development standards and quality and...everybody's really running your staff's to get under the line and we're talking about re-Iooking at the comprehensive plan. So there are going to be some major changes...Well for instance, the Ryan's out here on Galpin. Gorgeous rolling and it's running into a real wall out there because the road's going through and the development is going to destroy that land as the land develops. We're all of a sudden waking up to the fact that every time we approve a development, we kind of smile and put a stamp on it and go out there 6 months later and it's a disaster...That hill was supposed to be preserved. It was one of our landmarks. And development occurs. We're not even up to think that they're preserving our land. Look at what they did at that hill behind Byerly's...so this land referendum is the greatest gift we can give our community. I support it very enthusiastically. If you want to raise my taxes $300.00 a year, I'm... That's the only thing we've got left to give to our community so I'm totally in support of that. Maybe my point I'm saying is, I think it's been a really, if you're enthusiastic showing by showing up at the Council meetings because when Planning shows up or 2 or 3 or 4 people, it's Council and then they come up to the podium and they say well here's the game or here's what we did and here's why we did it. Dh. Dh. Or somebody says, well we're going to with this alignment of the road and then they come up and say, excuse me. Here's the facts and all of a sudden, it keeps everything on line so what I would ask you to do, if you support it and if you're enthusiastic, be there and speak up. Be there and support it or be there... Here's where all the work occurs and all the taking occurs and then it gets up there but you're not there to call... get off track and everything so I think there's a little bit... And once I heard that task force, well why are you afraid? One of the...task force to look into the facts and numbers, and then make a determination so I at least want the enthusiasm up to that point to get this thing off dead center. I'm really excited about it. I'm really pleased with what Todd has done... 10 ....." ....-I .....,I ~ Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Andrews: Thank you. Do we need to have a motion here to restate that the recommendation should be to have a task force formed through the Park and Rec Commission? So I so move. Lash: I second. Hoffman: Can you clarify for me? Andrews: I'm moving that our recommendation would be that the City Council authorize the Park and Rec Commission to form a task force to be comprised of citizens and Park Board members to investigate, where am I reading here from. Roeser: Investigate the 1995 park, open space. Andrews: Open space and trail acquisition and development referendum of a scope yet to be determined. II"""" Hoffman: That typically is the City Council, in a referendum type of process, is the body that sets, establishes the task force. I don't know if we want to given that discretion, they will certainly want to...who you would like to see on it and then it's a very good idea to have the recommendations of the task force be presented by the task force Chairperson before the commission before it goes back to the City Council but I think the Council would like to have that authority to go ahead and appoint the task force. Andrews: If that were to be the case, then I would recommend that the Park Board be well represented on that task force. Huffman: Is it possible to have the leader or the head person a park board member of that? So that's who's presenting it and that's who's leaving it and that's who's keeping their thoughts up front. Hoffman: Again, in the democratic process, the task force should establish who the chair person is of the task force. Lash: As long as they come back to us ftrst, I don't care. I don't care who's on it and I don't care who the chair person is. As long as everything comes through us ftrst. ,..... Andrews: Yeah, I agree with Jan. I don't want to have it be like that community center when the ftrst time we saw it was after it was already drawn up and they had hired a consulting architect and it's like, geez. It'd be nice for us to get a chance to get our two cents but. 11 Park and Rec Commission. - September 27, 1994 ...." Berg: But on the other side of the coin, you don't want people saying well look at all the people on the Park Commission who were on this task force, including the head. It's been a set up deal before we ever got started. Lash: That looks like a railroading effort going on. Berg: Right, because they're going to assume everyone on the Park and Rec is in favor of this. Andrews: I'll just try to walk the fence here. I'll just again restate that the motion that I made is that the City Council appoint a task force and that they give due consideration to proper representation by the Park Board and that they ask this task force to bring it's recommendation to the Park Board for review and comment before it is presented to the Council. Lash: Second. Andrews moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council appoint a task force, including proper representation of Park """""" Commission members, to investigate a 1995 park, open space and trail acquisition and development referendum of a scope yet undetermined, and that the item be brought before the Park and Recreation Commission for review and comment prior to presentation to the City Council. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PROPOSED STOCKDALE LAND ACQUISITION. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: So we're losing that upper triangle on the left but we're getting a little triangle on the right? Hoffman: Correct Huffman: And people's back yards will move up right against the park in that area? Hoffman: Yep. As depicted on the other handout you have in your packet. Berg: Right up to the parkland or right up to the berm? ....." 12 ,..... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Hoffman: It's up to the berm...with the extra parkland so you get back lots...to the front property...original concept you would have is 6 rear lot lines... So the fIrst couple of...is whether or not the Park and Recreation Commission feels comfortable with a neighborhood park. A neighborhood of 5 acres in size. The comprehensive plan states that 10 acres and above and 25 acres specifically and where the city would like to place these neighborhood parks in reference to size...statistics. Less than 6 acres in size, the park would be smaller than Curry Farms Park. Those of you who have been at Curry Farms can visualize that. And at present the city maintains...for neighborhood parks smaller than Curry Farms... Andrews: Isn't North Lotus about 8 acres? Hoffman: North Lotus Lake Park is 14. Andrews: 14, okay. ~ Hoffman: So that is the fIrst issue. A second issue concerns the...of Lundgren Bros acquiring and locating a berm that they would construct on the two properties, wholly or partially on the city park property and Mr. Lundgren has directed that in his letter to the commission so before you tonight I've asked you for action in those two areas... Is the park size acceptable to the Park and Recreation Commission. Second, what direction would you like to take in regards to...Lundgren Bros totally or partially locate a berm in the property in the city's parkland. And yet this map shows the approximate location and their map shows, is actually a better representation because this map shows it on private property and their map shows it being located, as prepared by Lundgren Bros, within the park property. The question at hand is, is this construction of that berm for the public good as a whole, to separate the park from the neighbors, or is it for the betterment of the individual lot owners. Andrews: I have a couple questions about this berm. It appears as though the hill, or that the elevation is dropping from the northwest to the southeast. Is there any defInition of how large, how tall of a berm would be necessary? Hoffman: I don't believe we spoke about a specifIc height 3:1 slopes on the side. Yeah, we're going to be at the bottom of a hill. The bottom of the back yards. So it was discussed that this...so you cannot see into the park. It's just a physical barrier. ,..... Andrews: I guess I have a couple of comments. One would be, if you have a walkout lot that's running down into the park and you had a berm at the bottom, it creates some interesting runoff issues about where the water's going to go. I made sort of a comment in jest here to Mr. Huffman about, that I would have no objection to a berm in our property if we could put our parking lots on their property. But I guess I feel that the bluff or the berm 13 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ....,# itself has no, adds no value to our park and we're looking for an active play area. I think it reduces our play area so I personally am against locating a berm on park property. Lash: I'd like to back up to the first issue of the overall size. What was the intended or original size? Hoffman: 6.4 acres. Lash: And we have what now? No, I mean when we first started this whole thing. Is that what it was? I was thinking it was like 8. Andrews: I think we were in the 6 range to start with. Berg: Didn't we add things like a pump house and something like that too? It was larger than 6.4 when we first started. Hoffman: Yeah. I cannot recall the exact number. If we were talking about 7 acres. In the area of 7 acres. Lash: Okay, so it came out at 6.4 and now we're down to what? ..." Hoffman: It'd be approximately 5.2, 5.1. Lash: And that's just because of this comer going and then the other little comer being added on so we're losing overall in. that. And why is it that we should give up that comer? Hoffman: It's the attachment we have in your packet indicates how the cul-de-sac, the residential cul-de-sac will be configurated and in order to allow the construction... Lash: So are you saying, and I guess I'm confused why someone, a developer if he has a map that shows where the park is supposed to be, would then put a cul-de-sac in a place where his lots won't fit. Where his lots end up being on part of the park property. If this was designated before he laid that out, I guess I'm confused why he just went ahead and put lots on our park property. I mean granted, it's not our park property yet but that was the way it was designated on the map. Hoffman: The plan as a concept, their concept for the residential layout happens to layout nicer if they chop that comer off of the park property. ..."" 14 ,... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Lash: So do we have, I mean can we say no? We're not willing to accept losing this comer and losing more when it was lower than what we initially wanted to start with. Andrews: I think one thing to remember here is that Mr. Stockdale had an interest in seeing that western portion sold off and not become severed as a piece of developable property. One of my concerns would be if we made this undesirable to the point where Lundgren wouldn't develop it, then we lose the whole proposition. I know what you're saying Jan. I mean if you straighten up the road on the Song side of the property and went straight down, you could probably eliminate taking our comer of the park out there. Lash: You wouldn't even have to straighten out the road. All you'd have to do is eliminate two of the lots. Commissioner: Put the road around the other way. Lash: Well the park could go right up to the street and those two, you just wouldn't be able to build on those two lots. ,...., Hoffman: Developers don't like not using their street signs which they built and paid for and put utilities along, they like to put houses along there. ...ask for it. They might even pay for the street. Pay the assessments on the street frontage. There's no doubt that the residential... if you wanted more acreage in the park. Lash: Well I look at the comer that we're losing as being more usable space than this little jet out by the street. I mean I just don't see a use for that. You know when you take out part of our open play fields, and you have a little corner up along the street, I guess I'm a little lost for what we would use that for. Hoffman: It should be an addition to open space. The larger triangle being lost in this concept is, in it's present state, a hill side. And so unless you have a large area around it, which is...you're not going to be able to...open space. ,.., Lash: I guess it's kind of the principal of things. That's my frustration. Given the fact that he had the area of the park and they chose to layout the development this way, which infringes on the park property, I guess is kind of setting a precedent for me to say to developers, it's okay for you to lay it out the way you want it and if it takes some of our park property, that's okay. We'll just work around it and that's okay. And that's not okay. I think when something is established, then it's established and they need to make their development work around that. And if that means making a street bend the other direction, or that means eliminating two of the lots or whatever and if he chooses to put his street there, 15 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ...."I why should we have to pay because then we'd have frontage on the street. That just doesn't even make sense to me. They did this after we laid out the park. Andrews: The plat to the north was already approved. Lash: Yes. Andrews: So the street curving there, there are certain laws about how fast you can make a curve and things like that so to just say, why can't they just straighten that out. In order to do that Lundgren's going to have to go back and have the plat all redone which would incur costs, which I can guarantee you they would want us to pay for. Huffman: Or put it in the value of their houses. Andrews: No, they'd want us to pay for it because those have come up before. Mr. Stockdale, you have something. Dh, resting your hand. So I'm not sure that we can just say arbitrarily that we'd like you to straighten out that road and have it miss that comer. Berg: I guess I agree with Jan to a certain extent though too. We're talking a principal here. They did know what this looked like before they submitted this request. Is that not correct? I mean had they seen this? ..."" Andrews: I guess the point I'm making though is the Song property was an approved plat before this was ever really brought in any kind of form to Lundgren Bros to work with. So that road was already designed with the curve turning towards the south. Lash: No, the road to the north would have already been approved. Andrews: That's what I'm saying. The road coming down from the north already had a turn. Lash: But it stopped right, you can see right where it stopped. It stopped right there. Andrews: That's right. Lash: So I mean to me this falls under the category of this should not have to be our problem. You know. I mean they're the ones who are developing this other chunk of property. They knew where the park. was going to be. They knew where the property lines were. So they have the guys with all of the degrees on how to lay this stuff out, so you figure out how to lay it out without putting it on our park property. Because if they do it, if this developer does it this time, what's going to stop the next guy from doing it? It's going 16 ...."I ,.... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 to happen over and over. Word gets out that that's okay. You can do it however you want and we'll just roll over and take it. Huffman: May I ask a question? What is the amount, our usage or whatever, of the park possible to go here. Hoffman: How big a park... Huffman: For our general formula that we use. How big a park do you look for on this site? Hoffman: We'd like to be 10 acres or above. Huffman: And we're already giving away 50% off the top. Hoffman: Correct. Huffman: I don't mind a berm at all. I think a berm's a wonderful thing separating a back yard from a 10 acre park. I wouldn't have a problem with that. But why are we getting, I ,-., mean we're going to have problems with the Rottlund development down on Highway 10 1 with that swamp park down there. Why are we giving up park space? I mean we're talking about trying to get a referendum to save land in Chanhassen. I want 10 acres. Lash: Well I don't think we can get 10 acres. Huffman: I know realistically but I mean that's enough. Lash: But we settled, we already settled for 6.4. Roeser: I thought, yeah I agree with Jan. That's what we did talk about was the 6.4 acres and why, I don't understand either why all of a sudden they stuck more lots in there except they saw that hey this, we could make some money on these lots. Better than what we can up on the road. ,..... Hoffman: Again, what the commission needs to remember, we're not in the driver seat here. We're a part of the process which included the City of Chanhassen, Mr. Stockdale and Lundgren Bros and that little triangle sticking out there makes the remainder of this property somewhat irregularly shaped, which would be difficult if you were the person sitting down and drawing a potential plat on it. ...you would have some irregular areas on the plat. This, from a residential plat, it makes good sense what they've done. Now if you want to change the configuration and still try to get 6.4 acres of park, that would be an approach that you 17 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ....,;' could certainly take. To say that this right angle square is exactly what we want to see, may not be the position that we would like to take. Dave Stockdale: ...1' d just like to say a few things about what I recognize as the history of how it got to this point. Maybe...but this all started out I'm sorry, Dave Stockdale. Lash: You live just to the north? Is this your homesite? Dave Stockdale: Yes. Lash: Okay. Just wanted to be sure. Dave Stockdale: Alright I've been sitting back watching things happening around me. Across the street and to the north and I was sitting in on one of the Park Commission meetings when a big issue was the private park that Lundgren was proposing and... the apparent need to further upgrade for a park in the area. And there seemed to be a stumbling block with the Lundgren's land... Hoffman: How big it is? It's smaller than this. We measured it in feet Dave Stockdale: Half this maybe? .....,II Hoffman: Yeah. Dave Stockdale: Anyway, I kind of stuck my neck out and said well I'd entertain the concept of possibly putting the park next to my house if in fact the rest of the land had some marketable value to it. And Todd and I started dialogue. At that point I wasn't sure what the needs and the space were. You know be it 10 acres or 2 acres or 6 acres. So I kind of set that out for discussion but I do remember 6 acres being kind of a minimum as a early conversation. How we ended up with the rectangle I don't remember if that was generated by something I drew or something Todd drew but that kind of just sat there for a while. And then the fact that Lundgren had said, well here's conceptually what the city is talking about doing. At that time I don't think we had in fill of what the park, what the playground area would be and all that. We just had... Obviously we weren't looking at the...as an issue at that point. We were just looking at 6.4 acres. I went to...and said here's what's left. See what you can do with it and get back to me and I think basically he just, I don't think it was lack of respect for the city as much as developers do, optimizing their efforts to get the maximum return, and so he came back with the slash across there. There's some logic to that in my mind since it's following the natural contours. That triangle is in...significant area, in three dimensional reality, a sliding hill that mayor may not have the value that it does for city 18 ..J ,... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 needs for what they want for the park. I understand the...the fact that you have, what's the word for it, sorry... You have ideals that you go for in the parks. It looks to me like, more than acreage, it seems like you need to satisfy the needs for the space that you want for the neighborhood. And whether or not the option that's created now does that. is to be determined. It seems like...it does. Yeah, it's an odd shape and it's less than 6 acres. I personally am open to options. My overall property is...19 acres. What I've had drawn there is that new angle which basically what my personal home status, that's the maximum encroachment before it starts to impact my land. You know what my home, so what happens beyond my homestead isn't as important to me singularly as it is... But the problem is, it seems like it's somewhere inbetween. Inbetween doesn't work. It's either something similar to what Lundgren has done to make it work for them or it doesn't work for them at all and then we're back to the... Again, I got the impression you weren't after large acreage, just because you weren't planning for a ballfield being formalized in there. ...trai1land and all that but it seemed like you weren't after real formalized space. Lash: Can I ask you just to bring us up to date on one part of this deal? So who owns. Dave Stockdale: I own all of it. I""'- Lash: You still own all of it? Dave Stockdale: Yes. Lash: Okay. And so we have a purchase agreement out to you now for the park site laid out as it's shown? Dave Stockdale: I think it's vague. Hoffman: Acreage to be determined. Lash: Oh, okay. And then you have a purchase agreement with Lundgren Bros to buy the other portion? Dave Stockdale: Mutually... Yeah, it's complex because I can't, from my point of view I need to sell part...knowing how the other part was falling so Todd...Roger Knutson and my attorney got together and tried to hammer it out and that's when these issues started to come into the forefront which probably says it's a good reason to... ,.... 19 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 .......,,' Berg: Help me with my memory too, if you can. Wasn't there something that was stated earlier from Lundgren Bros that they had a minimum number of acres they needed to make it so that they would develop. Or wasn't that ever stated. Dave Stockdale: I can't remember hearing that one. Andrews: I never heard that here. Dave Stockdale: I think logistically something along this line where they get dual access. The road is... Lash: Okay, that kind of changes my position. I mean I guess I was more under the impression that we were further forward in this process and that these things had been decided and already cut and dried and then Lundgren was coming in and. Dave Stockdale: No, it's not that. Lash: Right. Dave Stockdale: It's part...work that's in the middle somewhere. -' Lash: Not that kind of stuff doesn't happen. Because it does and that's why I get so frustrated when I see this stuff because I know I've seen it before. Dave Stockdale: No, I don't think they were absolutely stepping on boundaries that were already red lined. I am open to however you want to approach it but ultimately I think, as you said, it's probably accurate at some level, if it gets too small then... Andrews: I guess one idea that just came to mind for me would be, it appears that most of the property on the western edge that we had wished to have is quite sloped. One of my ideas as an alternative would be to try to see if the city might be able to come to an agreement with you Mr. Stockdale personally, at such time you decided to sell your house voluntarily, that you might sell it to the city so the city could then recover that flatter front portion to add to the park property at some later date. Dave Stockdale: With my homestead? Andrews: Yeah. Dave Stockdale: Have you been out there? ...." 20 ,..., Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Andrews: No. Hoffman: I don't know that the city would want to. Andrews: I don't know either. Hoffman: Unless there's a real striking issue to go ahead and buy some of these houses out and we can... Andrews: Now how much, it looks like you've got a fairly good slope there along Galpin there, right? Dave Stockdale: Yeah, that's...pretty good incline to it and that... Andrews: So you sit up like on a little knoll? Dave Stockdale: Yeah, my house is on a knoll and what's limiting that new angle is there is a wetland pond... There's a pond right in here...otherwise that would be an option too. I'm I""'" not sure that that would fit. I can't judge that... I mean I think if the city really wanted to...go for it, I don't now if that's a possibility or not. The only other thing I'd say is, I'd like to know what direction this is going because I've got other people who are hammering at me to make some decisions. Manders: I've got one question for you. Am I to understand then that you're basically in favor of this configuration that's laid out? Or not. Dave Stockdale: It works for me... Manders: That's what I wanted to know. Okay. Because I mean you're as much in the drivers seat as anybody. Dave Stockdale: Right. My only concerns are that it doesn't encroach so much on my homestead that it violates my privacy and that it doesn't encroach so much on the non homestead leftovers that it makes it a dead zone. So beyond that I'm pretty flexible. It seems to me that if acreage is an issue, again I'm sure Lundgren's pretty creative and they can figure out some way. I don't think this triangle works for them at all. Just because it cuts right into the road and if...gaining more acreage for either an absolute reason or for a special use. They can probably address to that more than... ,..., 21 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 . ..."",I Andrews: I guess the comments I'd like to make is that what we're trying to get here is some active play area. In my opinion, for us to buy acreage that's on a sloped hillside, although it may be nice for sliding and it may look nice, you know we are buying the property. It's not going to be deeded or given to us as any kind of a dedication. I personally don't feel that's a wise investment for us. Just a comment. So I guess, although I would support having more land, it appears to me that's not a viable option here. With that being the case, I would be willing to take this as it's proposed. That's my statement. Lash: The site itself. Andrews: Yep. Lash: Are you including the berm? Andrews: Oh, I'd want the berm on somebody else's land. Lash: Yeah, I would agree with that Berg: You're accepting, I'm not sure. 6.4 or 4.9? ..."", Andrews: Well the proposal as shown here by Lundgren to me I think is the best alternative that we can hope for with this particular piece of land. Huffman: But the berm is not on park property. That runs in their back yards. Andrews: The berm is at the convenience of Lundgren and therefore should be on their property. Huffman: And that does not count as park property, is that what you're saying? Andrews: That's correct Hoffman: That's a separate issue from this. Andrews: If they want to build a berm on their property, that's their decision. Dave Stockdale: Kind of off the record, I don't know what it's going to do... ......" 22 I"""" Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Lash: They think it will keep people from running into people's yards. But I look at it as being more of a benefit to the residents than the park users. Right. If they want a berm, that's fine but not on the park property. So do we need to do a motion? Andrews: Yes we do. Lash: Okay. I would move that we accept the alteration to the original park configuration as shown on this drawing, but that we would deny the request for the construction of the berm on park property. Meger: 1'd second. Andrews: Any further discussion? Lash moved, Meger seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission accept the alteration to the original park configuration on the Stockdale property as proposed, and deny the request by Lundgren Brothers Construction for the construction of a berm on park property. All voted in favor, except HutTman and Berg who opposed, and the I""" motion carried with a vote of 5 to 2. Lash: Would you like to comment on your. Berg: I'd like to have it go back to Lundgren Bros and work at a new configuration. I'm not happy at all with giving an inch to a park that's already too small. Huffman: I second Berg. Andrews: Okay, noted. Dave Stockdale asked a question that could not be heard on the tape. I""" Huffman: No, what I'm doing is now basically I'm voting principal. I mean there were enough votes to let it carry. Therefore I can throw my no vote in and it means nothing. I mean seriously, in reality that's what it means. I'm voting principal here because I would like to see 10 acres. I would like to see a big park. I would like to see an area that is park deficient follow the guidelines that have been established. There's been a lot of things that have done before this point. I'm way too late in the process. I'm not going to stop anything that I don't really know. But you know, you did a very nice job. Do you want to be on our task force. No, I mean our votes are, yes we'd like to see something and Mr. Berg spoke eloquently here but it's gone. 23 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ...."tI Andrews: Todd, who owns the property directly adjacent to the south? Is that Swings? Hoffman: ...single family residence. Dave Stockdale: ... Hoffman: Very curious about what's going on. Probably not going to sell. Andrews: Alright, very good. Let's move on. OFFICIALLY NAME THE NEW CITY RECREATION BUILDING BEING CONSTRUCTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE NEW DISTRICT 112 ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AT HIGHWAY 5 AND GALPIN BOULEVARD. Hoffman: Everyone has...referred to this building as the community center. That including the...put on the sign which was placed at the construction site. Then we started receiving the calls, you're finally building that community center... Upon discovering what's in it, they're not excited anymore. They're in fact disappointed so we need to refer to this thing appropriately. I believe that Chanhassen Recreation Center is an appropriate name for it. I ....." would think then that future people would nickname it the Rec Center. Kids want a rec center and we want a rec center and if the commission has other ideas, I'd be very open to hear them... Lash: I think that's a real clear, to the point name, although. But... Okay, I guess what I was kind of thinking over the weekend, and I don't feel real strongly about this but I want to throw it out. I just thought it might make it convenient, I mean who knows what the new elementary is going to be named ultimately but maybe it would be convenient if it had a tie in with the name of the elementary just for geographical reference. So if we do end up with a community center eventually in another part of town, it would be, you know say the elementary was called, I have no idea. Say they called it West Elementary or Galpin Elementary or 'something like that. The name for the rec center would have also a tie in with that. Hoffman: H it's Galpin, it could be Galpin Recreation Center. Bluff Creek Elementary, Bluff Creek Recreation Center. Huffman: We're not putting the name on this thing forever are we? Hoffman: Sure. You're going to put it on the wall. --' 24 ,.... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Lash: I guess that's what I'm, I don't know that I'm real comfortable putting a name on. Huffman: We can call it next. Where are you going? Next door. Lash: The gym. Hoffman: The entire school district..Bluff Creek Elementary. The City of Chanhassen Bluff Creek Recreation Center, or Chanhassen Recreation Center? Roeser: Is that what the school is going to be called? Lash: No, no. We have no idea. Roeser: So we don't know. But it's not impossible to change it. What you're saying Todd is you want something to refer to this so when you're talking about it, you're not referring to it as the community center but as a recreation center. Andrews: Is that a motion? "'" Roeser: Yeah. That's basically my motion. I think that's what we should do. Hoffman: I think what you want is an interim name and postpone the official name of the building until the school is named. Lash: Yes. Hoffman: Or do you want to go first? Lash: They aren't going to care what we name the rec center. They'll choose what they want so. Berg: Yeah, and we if name it the same as the school, then it eliminates all questions as to where it is. Lash: Well, and if we don't like the name of the new school, we can go with whatever we want but. Andrews: Make a motion. ,.... 25 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ....." Huffman: I make a proposal that we refer to the place as the Chanhassen Recreation Center. Roeser: Second. Berg: Would you accept a friendly amendment that it would be...on an interim basis. Lash: Until the naming of the elementary school. Are you accepting that amendment? Andrews: He did already. Huffman: Yes sir. Huffman moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council officially name the new city recreation building being construction at the intersection of Highway 5 and Galpin Boulevard as the "Chanhassen Recreation Center" on an interim basis until the District #112 names the new elementary school. All voted in favor and the motion carried. EST ABLISH 1994/95 SKATING RINK PROGRAM. Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item. ...", Andrews: When's there going to be a light put in at North Lotus? One like the street light type thing. Ruegemer: I know they're going to work up there presently and Todd would have to address that. Hopefully there would be... Andrews: That's what we were going to do this year, yeah. Okay, any other comments? Hoffman: Is there any other locations? We've often heard from residents in other neighborhoods that want a rink and the standard answer is that this is reviewed on an annual basis by the Park Commission. They've approved this. You're not going to get one...next year. Lash: So who's asked for one? Hoffman: Power Park has asked for one. Curry Farms Park has asked for one. Pheasant Hills Park has asked for one. 26 ...."I ,..... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Huffman: What is the cost of putting one in? Hoffman: It's labor intensive. Andrews: And short use. Lash: Well if we look at the requests, how about Chan Hills, haven't they asked for one? Hoffman: Not that I recollect... Lash: And that one, or Power Hill, maybe we need to discuss. The rest of them, Curry Farms, there's one at Carver Beach. There's one at North Lotus. The same for Pheasant Hills. There are some fairly close there but there are none on the south side of TH 5. Huffman: Would this be something that would fit into a referendum? If they did not have access to one again this year, that might spur the thought. Or it just doesn't make any difference. ,...., Hoffman: No, it's a general budgeting issue. What do you want your people to be doing. Spending time making ice or doing other things. It's an allocation of resources. Manders: Is there any idea or numbers on usage of the existing pleasure rinks? I mean is there one of these that maybe could be phased out just due to low usage. Hoffman: Minnewashta Heights has always been discussed if that should be phased out. That discussion comes up... Roeser: Well couldn't we afford like adding a new one every year? Hoffman: Sure. Roeser: You know put one down at Chanhassen Hills. Huffman: What does it cost us for doing that? ...explain me the difference on the ones you do versus the one we did down at Rice Marsh Lake. They bring the dozer down. Clean circle the diamond out. It snows. They put water on the ground. Hoffman: They're more than you think. ,..... Huffman: But they're constantly sweeping and water. 27 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ...." Andrews: I think we need one south of Highway 5. Lash: Yes. I would be open to either Power Hill or Chanhassen Hills. I guess I would like more information from you Todd as to which one you think would be more conducive to a rink and would have better access and have good topography and also the population there. If you think there are more homes in one area than the other. Hoffman: We're going to have to deal with them separately because people from Power Hill aren't going to run over to Chan Hills to use their rink. They're going to get in their car and drive...so what we're addressing is, we'll try to provide walks out to our neighborhood use. In Chanhassen Hills you can probably do it. The access there is off of the trail. Off of either the parking lot, that...trail, through the park, past the playground and up the hill and onto the ball diamond. So it's not real convenient to get there. Power Hill, there's really no location there. The location in that neighborhood should be at Sunset Ridge Park and again, access is a problem. At the current time we're looking forward to the point when the road goes through and we have a parking lot and we have access directly into that spot which...Sunset Ridge Park for a future ice sheet, whether it be hockey rink or winter skating. So the appropriate place in that neighborhood, which is Lake Susan Hills, is at Sunset Ridge. If we start doing that this year, it's problematic to drive up and down to. --' Andrews: It's also tough to take away a rink once you've started it. Lash: I guess I'd be open to entertaining that putting one in at Chanhassen Hills this year and then if Sunset Ridge was ready next year or the next or whenever, that's maybe, I'd try one there. I look at them as being far enough apart that, and they don't have easy access to a rink like a lot of the other people do. Manders: The other thing with Power Hill is that probably is more along the lines of the sliding hill that we've been thinking about anyway. Berg: I have a question about Powers though. Is that the park that I asked you about that most of it's up on the hill. I recognize that. Then there was that other parcel down below. Would a skating rink fit in there? Lash: It'd be hard to get to. Berg: There's a trail right into it. 28 .....", ,..... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Hoffman: There's a trail inbetween two houses and then it drops off. It's such a significant grade that driving a truck back out of there would be kind of difficult. Or very difficult. And then in essence he would be flooding the rink in the back yards of 10-15 people. So the skating rink would be in their back yards. Lash: Actually I wasn't even thinking about access for the truck. I was thinking about access for people. Roeser: The truck's got to get there though. Lash: Yeah, I know. But even for people it would be tough. Is there a way that we could put one in at Chanhassen Hills this year? Hoffman: I'll let Dale...drive out there tomorrow and take a look at it. It's probably a 3:1 grade right at that berm so we may have to take...I'll give Dale the discretion to make that decision whether or not their trunk will service that location. Once they get up there, they kill the grass on ballfields like any other location and then seed it next spring with a new lawn grass. ~ Andrews: Let's try to do that. Let us know if it's not possible. Lash: And then keep in mind the Sunset Ridge one as a future. Andrews: Let's move on. Program Reports on Lake Ann Park and Concessions and Equipment Rental. Hoffman: Was there a motion on number 6? Roeser: Do we need a motion? Hoffman: Yeah... Lash: Well I would move that we approve the skating program '94/95 as submitted by Jerry with the amendment that we would investigate installing recreational or pleasure skating at Chanhassen Hills. Berg: Second. ,..... Lash moved, Berg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the 1994-95 skating program as proposed with direction to staff to investigate installing a 29 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 .....; pleasure skating rink at Chanhassen Hills Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PROGRAM REPORTS: A. LAKE ANN PARK CONCESSIONS AND EQUIPMENT RENTAL B. SENIOR CENTER FALL ACTIVITIES. Lemme: Chairman and commissioners, item 7(a) and 7(b) are both mine and they're strictly informational so if you have any questions, I'll... Andrews: Are there any questions on items 7(a) or (b)? Hearing none, let's move on item 7(c). C. CONSIDER AMENDMENTS TO BALLFIELD RESERVATION AND USE POLICY REGARDING USE OF NEIGHBORHOOD BALLFIELDS AND WEEKEND RESERVATION. Ruegemer: Thank you Chairman Andrews. This is going to be a review...we just fInished our busy season and now it's time to look ahead again. It'd be nice to make some sound --' decisions regarding the 1995 outdoor facility usage for next summer and it'd be nice to take a look at some policies and procedures for next year get ironed out before too long here while they're still fresh in everybody's memory. We did take a look at the CAA, or Chanhassen Athletic Association's program. Girls Softball program. Those type of uses are certainly going to increase. For next year I think we need to be proactive in this...take a look at some of those uses. We've hashed over the neighborhood park issues before and then we all know what a can of worms that is between cars parking, privacy, that type of thing. I think it's important as a commission that we take a look at that type of use again and make a sound decision in regards to that. We also need to take a look at reviewing weekend use for such areas as our community parks and use for soccer practice, baseball practice, girls softball practices and those types of uses. We will see some, a little bit of a breather. We did get additional fIelds during the 1996 summer season, if the grass is developed by that time. We'll know that after next year after the planting season. How that comes along but we need to make some short term goals to get to that point in order to better serve our residents. We need to take a look at neighborhood use for such ages. For instance 4th grade for T -ball. For 2nd and 3rd grade softball program. Ragball. Pee wee programs. Those types of uses thai would have a maximum use of probably 2 or 3 months during the course of the summer. We did take a look at that issue, and also we took a look at the issue on practices during the weekends. We had Mr. Dick Brown come in from the Chanhassen Legion program with such a request I know those requests will be coming again next year again. I think it'd be in the ...." 30 ,..... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 best interest of the commission to take a look at that. Make a sound decision. If we want to take a look at entertaining that. To a certain degree limiting hours such as we do with Mr. Brown, or eliminate that use altogether, or to...because I know with the increasing populations with those youth associations, there's going to be increased time and stress put on our facilities. You know currently they are going for the most part 5 days a week, you know first come, first serve on Saturdays for practices and that type of use so the fields are getting a lot of use during those 2 to 3 months during the summer. So we need to take a look at that. Possibly reviewing our first come, first serve policy and then taking a look at some of those issues that arose over this past summer. It might make sense to limit those uses to our Chanhasen community parks, just with the abundance of parking and being able to accommodate those types of uses. I know picnics might be an issue. I know we need to take a look at that and if we need to...I've always made that available to people at Lake Susan. If somebody doe~ schedule a picnic, I always mention that there is a possibility that Mr. Brown might be there and practicing during that scheduled practice time so that's just the policy issue there. It certainly can be worked through in that case. So if the commission, it'd really be very important to take a look at some of those issues and get that resolved while it is still fresh in our memory from the past summer. We can discuss that type of policy for next year. /""" Andrews: Thank you. It sounds to me like you have really several different issues here that need to be dealt with. Were there any problems with the field reservation with the ball team that came in there? Ruegemer: Mr. Brown? Andrews: Yes. Ruegemer: Chanhassen Legion. None that I'm aware of. Andrews: Okay. I didn't think there would be and I'm surprised. I guess one comment I would make and this is only based on my experience with soccer this year, which has been almost 5, or 6 days a week. I would predict that soccer next summer will probably grow by at least 30%. Field space this fall there has been as many as 18 teams up at Middle School West at one night. It's going to be a real crunch so we are going to be forced to deal with this issue of prioritizing and reserving space. One observation I'm making is that these fields just can't handle the be~tings they're getting and I think we probably need to stick to our guns and say that there are certain times that we're not going to reserve for organized teams. I mean the fields are being destroyed and they'll be of no use to anyone if that happens. ,... Lash: I would, two of your comments Jerry that we would look at limiting weekend practices and games to a certain number of hours, as we did with the Legion, so there wasn't a conflict 31 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ....."" with people making reservations for those facilities. And also allowing activities at the community parks and not at neighborhood parks. If you want to review the fIrst come, fIrst serve policy, I'm going to throw out an idea. I don't know if it will fly but if it was a team who wanted to have an ongoing scheduled time, that you would put out into all of the literature at registration time that if they want to book every Saturday or every Sunday afternoon or whatever, they would have to have all their requests in to you by a certain date and you'd know every one who wanted to have a scheduled practice and then you could look at that and try and figure out how you can spread that out equitably so everybody gets a little time instead of just some people getting a lot of time. And then if there was one shot request that say one team just calls up one time and they want to try and get in a quick practice, that , would be on a first come, fIrst serve basis on something that you could find that's open. Andrews: I guess I'd like to see certain, I guess the term I'll use is blackout times when, that we would not reserve space period. Roeser: I think Sunday is the day to do that Really. With use of the park, you're leaving it open for people that just want to pick up games or people that want to use the park. I don't think there should be scheduled practices in the park on Sunday. Andrews: I guess I look at just pre-lunch ill post dinner time is prime picnic time and I feel ....." that we should save that time for pick up or the walk in public. Lash: Okay, or noon to, what's the usual rental time for the park shelters? Ruegemer: For the shelters itself. Depending on what size of the group but typically set up is no earlier than 10:00 or 11:00 a.m. Depends on what kind of a group. A lot of times it's 11:00 or noon until 5:00 or 6:00. Lash: So say we said nothing, we wouldn't schedule anything between noon and 6:00 and then that would kind of coincide with. Ruegemer: We have to take a look at too what park you're talking about. Lash: Well if you're looking at Susan and Ann. Hoffman: That's one ballfield. I don't think you'd ever see 6 pick-up games on Lake Ann. At a maximum fields 3 and 6 get the group use because the people are coming... Andrews: That's fine. You could give us some guidance there but I think we should have some fields that just are not reserved for those periods. --' 32 ,... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Lash: Or maybe you even want to, if you want to try and pick up on Jim's comment about allowing the field some down time or recovery time. Maybe you want to come up with a schedule where you flip flop it every other weekend. You know 1 thru 3 and then the next weekend it's 4 thru 6. I don't know. I'm just throwing out ideas here. Ruegemer: ...the fields that are being used during the weekend would be number 1 and number 2...for that 10, 11, 12, to the 16 age baseball program. They're not really coaching into the... Andrews: The wear and tear I'm seeing are the soccer fields. Right in front of the goals. Unfortunately coaches don't have enough sense to pick up the goals and move them away from the game goal areas and you can run a very effective practice out anywhere in grass. I think that's something that the city needs to work with on the soccer program. Give them some direction because that's just destroying a game field for no good reason and the fields just cannot take the pounding that they're getting from these soccer programs. It's just unbelievable. Hoffman: The grass at Lake Ann Park with the irrigation that you, and the fertilization I""'" schedule there is just... Lash: Well if we throw out some of those times to you, does that give you some guidelines to write up a policy to come back to us? Ruegemer: Yes. Lash: I guess I still feel frrmly, or very strongly about not scheduling the neighborhood parks for organized sports. And the other thing that's going to happen is. Huffman: Are you talking about little kids and everyone too? Lash: Everyone. Huffman: I'd like to see it gone. Every one of them out. And the insidious reason for that is, we almost force an artificial, I want the referendum to go through. People have to feel there is a need in this community and if they say oh gosh, we can go down the neighborhood park. No. That's not the use for that park. Lash: What we're doing is putting a bandaid on a problem and then people won't vote for the referendum. ,.... 33 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 -'" Huffman: ...solved or not and I want them out. And have them call me. You know I've got 2 little kids too. Lash: You know and it may only be 2 or 3 months out of the year but that's the only time that people really ever want to use the park anyway. Huffman: That's when I can go down to my park on Tuesday night and I can't go there. Shorten it. Make it short. Roeser: We do schedule them for games though, right? Neighborhood parks, you still do that. Lash: No. Rice Marsh. Andrews: North Lotus you do. Huffman: Yeah, what I'm saying is gone altogether. Create a shortage. Lash: And as soon as the new elementary opens, I really think is a goal we want to get it out of Rice Marsh totally. · -'" Ruegemer: I'm trying to do that from year to year but just with the increase in numbers, that's... Lash: Well when we get these new fields, that needs to be looked at. Huffman: Oh, I understand that but I mean if we keep making little solutions here for them to accommodate, we're not going to get a referendum passed. I mean if they don't perceive a need to have this, well do we really want to add so much money to our, well we can go to Rice Marsh. We can really play down there. Or we can go wherever. Manders: I think that is more of an education issue. I understand where you're coming from on neighborhood usage but a lot of people are going to say that that park sits there empty and nobody uses it. And they're telling us that we can't use that park. Why do we need a referendum? Roeser: Oh no, we're just saying we won't schedule. Huffman: Yeah, you can go down there and play. If you want to take your two teams down there and practice... -"" 34 .1""" Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Manders: But for scheduling purposes I mean they're going to be talking like that. Huffman: I can guarantee you Tuesday at 5:00 to 6:00, from 6:00 to 7:00, from 7:00 to 8:00, three T-ball games. Absolutely not. Manders: And they're going to corne back to you and say, well you're asking for more park space. Huffman: It's a neighborhood park. Manders: And that's what I'm getting at. There just needs to be more education. And not be so blunt about saying that you can't use it, because they don't understand why. Andrews: I think we need a motion to do this. This is a dramatic change from what we've done. Hoffman: Yeah, I would like to add some comments as well. As far as Rice Marsh or Carver Beach and maybe North Lotus Lake Park, the Park Commission has the political clout ,...., to close those down. Meadow Green Park which, if you take a look at it, is additionally being used by girls softball. I mean that's just their home field. That's their home practice field. That's where they play their games and a park which is a large neighborhood park, was laid out as ballfields. If you don't want ballfields, which now in neighborhood parks, we're not building ballfields. Take the ballfield out of Rice Marsh or take it out of Carver Beach. Short of doing that, not putting in new ones, which is good if you don't want that actually to happen. Meadow Green, that's going to be a real nightmare. Huffman: You say that's a bigger park. Roeser: That's a lot bigger. Hoffman: Well I'm picking a few of these, pick and choose. If you want to take the neighborhood parks out, then Meadow Green is classified as a neighborhood park within the city of Chanhassen. Huffman: Well but am I running in the wrong direction. I'm saying let them bleed to find out what the real need is. I mean yes, that's drastic. I'm asking is that too drastic. I mean is that something that people are just going to scream... ,.... Lash: I'm not saying that we need to alter what we're doing now. I'm saying I'm not open to expanding it any further than we already have because all that's going to do is encourage 35 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ....""t that to happen more and more. Pretty soon it will be scheduled in every neighborhood park and it's not what they were intended for. Hoffman: ...over your head. And it's always been the intention of staff, because we've heard the direction from the commission to, through...get out of Rice Marsh, get out of Carver Beach and get out of the neighborhood parks. But each time we bring on additional fields, if you want to take them away, fme. If you want it to happen through attrition, then you have to wait until the new school comes in. Berg: I think we have to be very specific. Instead of saying neighborhood parks, be specific with the park that we don't want this activity going on any more because it would be an absolute sin to quit playing softball at Meadow Green. Roeser: Meadow Green, yeah. That's true. Lash: Well and again, it was set up more for that. I mean it's got the large parking lot. You know Rice Marsh has no place to park. Huffman: In all the neighbors yards. Lash: Right. So that, I mean that's a nightmare situation and I'm not exactly, Carver Beach. .....,i Manders: About the same way. Lash: Okay, there's really not parking set up there either. You know and right now it's been kind of a stop gap measure for a few years and it's filled the bill and it hasn't been too much of a problem. Manders: It's not going to get any better. Lash: Right, but as the new fields come on, if we can get it out of those two particular areas where there's a parking problem and get it onto new fields, fme. But I'm not interested in starting the problems in other places. Hoffman: Okay, we've been all over the board. Lash: So okay, I think I can summarize how I feel. Roeser: Would you please. 36 "-' ,..., Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Andrews: And I'd like to summarize how I feel. Lash: Okay. That we would not allow any scheduling of neighborhood parks for organized sports, other than the ones that are being scheduled currently, and I think we named those three. That the community parks would be scheduled and I don't know, what did you guys think of the idea of putting in a request to Jerry ahead of time if you want an ongoing permanent time. He'd have to come up with a schedule. I think that's reasonable. Andrews: Yes. Berg: Jerry, do you think you're going to get more requests than you have parks? Ruegemer: For the. Berg: For pre-ordained times. Ruegemer: For the community park? ~. Manders: Yeah. Ruegemer: In the past, they've been going out there anyway and having practices. I can see that as we go through, and now they're talking about the n~w district wide program for next year so I would anticipate higher numbers next year so it's hard to gauge how many requests we're going to get... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Manders: They kind of wing it, isn't that easier? Huffman: Or not show up. Hoffman: And if they have to call the schedule in on Monday for the following week or by Tuesday for the following week, then you can bet that if they make the reservation, they're going to be there. Lash: So just stick with the fIrst come, fIrst serve? That's what we've had. Ruegemer: I think Todd was saying, just to have, they can do that... Hoffman: Just to have reservations. ,..., 37 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ..."I Ruegemer: The first part of the week, like Monday or Tuesday they can call for that Saturday. If you want to eliminate the Sunday use, I'd certainly... Hoffman: Right now we're taking no reservations at Lake Ann. Except Dick Brown, who came in this spring. So what Jerry is asking, that people would like to reserve for games and practices? Ruegemer: In very dire straits in the past we've used that as a game for rain out make-up, that type of thing. But if you'd like to permit that for game use. Primarily it's been used for practices. Lash: Okay. So then what I would say is in the community parks, that we would allow scheduled games and practices not, we came up with not the hours we wanted. Andrews: Black out hours. Lash: Okay, with noon to 6:00 being blocked out for Lake Susan and should we just say half of Lake Ann? Roeser: Two ballparks. -' Hoffman: Fields 3 and 4. Lash: Okay, and Fields 3 and 4 for Lake Ann. Huffman: May I ask a question? The three parks, three little neighborhood parks. What was your recommendation there? Lash: That that would continue until the elementary opens. Huffman: What happens if we stop it this year? What's going to be the repercussion? I mean if we look at it and we say no. Ruegemer: I'm sure you'd be limiting kids that can participate in sports. I don't know if you decided to do possibly a split season. Hoffman: Rice Marsh plays how many nights a week? 38 ..."I ,... Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Ruegemer: I believe it was 2 this past year. In the past they've done 4 but they've tried to eliminate some of those with the Coulter fields right down here and then try to shift some people around... Hoffman: 6 nights of ball would disappear per week. Huffman: And realistically, is there anyplace to put them? Ruegemer: In a big back yard. Huffman: I've got a path through my back yard, thank you. Hoffman: Coulter field, they added two... Huffman: But in reality, I mean if we zap them, there's no place for them to go? Hoffman: Well they'll crunch somewhere else. Jf"""'" Huffman: But they'll crunch, that's the point. They'll crunch. They won't be... Roeser: Well playing at Rice Marsh is a crunch to begin with. Huffman: Yeah, you've got kids once they get up to the field, I mean it's a disaster getting in and out. Once the kids on the field, they have room to run. Hoffman: Currently we're initiating an investigation into a site at Rosemount for private/public partnership for use of green space to the west of their building. At DataServ, to the east of their building and then eventually at Instant Webb but that one would require some grading. The soccer people want more space and the only place to look right now is to private land which we could use... Huffman: ...vote for the referendum. Berg: Dave, I think if we go that way, we might be working counter productive to ourselves. We might crunch to the point that they feel like, to use your words, they got hammered and they might not want to investigate any further than finding out you took ball away from my kid. And it might work in counter purposes for what we're trying to do. Lash: And I don't want to hurt kids in this process. I"""'"' 39 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 -'" Huffman: No. I don't want to slam them but I also somehow want to point out very clearly that we've got a problem and this is... Andrews: I think the solution is that all officials of the various organizations, you know Chanhassen Athletic or Tonka United or whatever, that I think a memo should go out that those fields will no longer be used once the school properties are there so do not expect that we will have additional field space. You're going to have substitute field space so they can continue to look for alternate space because I think the assumption will be that no only will I retain Rice Marsh but now I've got 3 more fields to use. Berg: That's a really good point. Hoffman: Something else to think about is that, as you look forward to the potential referendum, the date we have not identified...additionalland for ballfield space other than potentially along Highway 5. Up to the north there. The Fleet Farm property or else alternately the Halla property down to the south but as we look forward and begin to push people around as to where they can go, we'd better be in line to provide the space. When you say get out of here, and you go somewhere else. Bandimere would be that location for another 5-6 fields but beyond that, we're probably coming up short of community ball space. -' Andrews: Well let's hope it becomes more obvious to our citizens. Lash: So given that information Jerry, do you want to write up a policy and we can review that on a future meeting. Andrews: Yeah. bring it back please. If you would please tell us what Jan said then we can. We're going to move on. Administrative Presentations. Do you have enough to go on there? Ruegemer: Yeah. Did you make a motion then? Lash: Yeah, I guess I would call. Huffman: Second. Lash moved, Huffman seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to bring back a policy regarding scheduling fields for games and practices which would not allow any scheduling of neighborhood parks for organized sports, other than the ones that are being scheduled currently, and the community parks would allow scheduled games and practices except on Sunday from noon to 6:00 at Lake Susan and on Fields 3 and 4 at Lake Ann. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 40 ....." ",-. Park and Rec Commission - September 27. 1994 ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: A. TRAIL CONSTRUCTION REPORT. Todd Hoffman updated the commission on this item and asked for any questions. Andrews: Hearing none. lef s move on to item 8(b). Manders: I have one question on number 4. Andrews: You had to do that. Manders: Just putting that in. I mean I think if s great but how does that factor in with the road? Hoffman: Frontage road? Manders: Yeah. .1"""" Hoffman: It will probably wholly or partially... Manders: That might be a bunch of years down the road. Andrews: Yeah. they're talking 2000 now so. The proper term is access boulevard. Manders: And then the other thing. I thought this was a real interesting. informative document. ' B. RESTORATION OF DEGRADED WETLAND LOCATED SOUTHWEST OF LAKE SUSAN IN CITY PARKLAND. Todd Hoffman updated the Commission on this item and asked for any questions. Manders: This is that beaver pond area that we went on the site visit? Hoffman: Yep. Berg: Where'd the beavers to? ~ 41 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 """,. Hoffman: The beavers went to the other end of the lake and went up the creek which, the bridge that goes over to Lake Susan Park. They dammed that up almost to the level of the bridge. Backed up the storm water retention. pond and flooded the trail on the... Andrews: They don't call them busy beavers for nothing. Roeser: Bring them down to Rice Marsh. Huffman: Bring them on down. We could use them. Hoffman: ...like to offer our thanks to both Jan and Fred for helping out at the Septemberfest celebration. An idea that Dawn came up with on this park and rec trivia. It was a real kick and you will see it continued at future celebrations. You spin and wheel. They get to win a prize if they can name, answer a trivia question. Jan and Fred...tell us about your experiences. Berg: It was a ball. Lash: It was. Berg: We had a lot of fun. Lot of kids. -' Lash: It was really interesting. I think a lot of people thought it was kind of educational too. You know whether they knew the answer or not, they ultimately got the answer. We accepted first, second, third answer. After much prompting usually they could get it but I think they learned some things that they didn't know before and I thought it was really fun. Hoffman: Excellent PRo In conclusion I would like to let the commission know that Michelle Braun is winding down her time with us as a Recreation Intern. Michelle has performed excellent work for the City of Chanhassen, at a very reasonable price I might add. Before leaving she will be concluding a very exciting project for both the city and the department. That being a glossy, full color park, recreation and trail brochure. About a $10,000.00 print job which will take place in January-February of 1995. It will show the city's parks and city's trails. Where the future trails will be and describe our park system. It has some nice pictures. We have a local citizen who volunteered through solicitation in the newsletter to take photographs. We had a professional photographer who's doing that for free. Things are coming together and Michelle did a good job with that final project.. Andrews: Thank you. 42 -' II"'" Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Huffman: Are you going to stay in the park area now after watching all this? Braun: You bet I am. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Andrews: Are there any commission member presentations this evening? Manders: Three questions. They're different, more informational questions. First one is on Power Hill sliding area. Is that going to be open this year? Hoffman: It will be open. The grass rooted very nicely. The...is that the people will be running out into private property...and again, I don't fault anybody... when the cornfield which is at the bottom of the sliding hill comes in for development...for this runoff. So we will be condoning trespassing on this... Manders: Okay. Second question is, I've seen some literature on Bandimere. U sing that for soccer field space this year. Is that happening? ,-.. Hoffman: No. Manders: There's no planned soccer activity there? Hoffman: No. Manders: I didn't think there was but. Hoffman: ...the soccer organization. Andrews: Chuck Reinstra. Hoffman: Chuck Reinstra came in... They thought there might be some money available to go ahead and grade that thing out and build soccer fields there in the interim. When you get right down to it, you don't grade things for the interim. It either works or it doesn't. At that time we initiated the discussions... ,...., Manders: And then the last comment was on Lake Ann pavilion. I don't know if that was in one of the packets about usage of that pavilion and potential misunderstanding as to who has it reserved and who can use it. Is there a pO$sibility of putting a sign or something up there as to who has it reserved or is that not necessary from your point of view? 43 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ....." Hoffman: There's a sign on the trail down below. Manders: In terms of who has it for that day. Ruegemer: For all three sides. Hoffman: Yeah. So a person can walk from the parking lot into the upper level and saunter right in the middle of a reserved picnic. Manders: But I think their only comment was, that there was something there that they had reserved themselves. Okay, if that's there, that's fine. Ruegemer: Jim, to answer that question too, as part of the 1995 budget process, we did budget for another sign to mount on the wall of the pavilion to try and prevent those comments in the future. Andrews: I guess to follow up on that. That pavilion there. Are all the construction repairs and loose ends all tied up on that finally? On the new park shelter. Hoffman: The new park shelter. All the, it's all constructed. We've used it for 2 years. The contract has not cleared up...$lO,OOO.OO on the building and the ball's in their court.. ....; Lash: I was wondering if there was anything, besides what we talked about Septemberfest. Just to give a quick overview of how you think it went. Overall. Hoffman: You'll get a letter...If any commissioners can make it... What we're doing is inviting everybody in to see, because our comments from the Rotary and Lions is that they'd like to see it go back to the evening. I heard some comments from some residents that they'd like to go back to evenings. We thought the evenings were pretty slow last year but... The , other issues, we try to gauge these things so people can come out and try to take everything in at once. Maybe that's the wrong approach. Maybe we go from 11:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night and you either choose if you want to come out for the morning events or evening events. We'd like to hear from you because we had a steady crowd in my opinion but there was an awfully lot to take in. Huffman: There was also a weather issue that day. Hoffman: Yeah, the weather issue. Lash: Well it wasn't like it was. 44 ...,;I "...., Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Huffman: Well, it wasn't 80 and sunny. Lash: No, but it was warm. Fred and I had on sweatshirts and we were kind of hot actually. It was a little on the muddy side in some places but I thought the new activities were wonderful. I just thought you had some great ideas and I think it was what, about 1:00 and I turned to Fred and I said, boy this has really died out Everybody left and we turned around and looked at the craft tables and there was like a thousand little kids working there just like crazy and they weren't saying a word so that was very popular. I mean I thought it was very well attended the time I was there. Maybe we want to try and keep it open during the dinner hour. You know I hurried to get back up there again before 5:00 to get in on some of the fun myself and it was already, a lot of the stuff was closing down well before 5:00 I think because there was no one really there. But I guess I was mostly curious about the teen dance and how that flew since that was sort of the big change. Ruegemer: ...probably 50 to 60 people. 50 to 60 people were there. Some parents were there. Enjoyed the music as well as chaperoning. That type of thing but like Dawn said, the kids that were there did have a good time. I think Dominoes seemed to enjoy, have an opportunity too as being part of our sponsor program... From a programming standpoint, sure ,..... it wasn't the most well attended program we've done but I guess we're there to provide different opportunities for kids of all ages. So we're certainly going to try to keep programming for teenagers. We're not going to give up...but looking through the course of the summer with the teen trips and this type of dance, it's a hard age to program for but.. Andrews: I know dances like that, it may take you a year or two and the word getting out that that was a fun dance last year and you'll get more the next year and kind of more the next year. Lash: Well it seems like on the 4th of July and the past Septemberfests, that kids stay. Adults stay and kids stay and I wonder if because it was designated as a teen dance, that that's just a turn off or something. Now I have the teen to interview on this and I guilted her the most I could to get her to go and she went for 10 minutes and left because nobody was there. And I said what would it take, and I asked a bunch of her friends. What would it take to get you to want to go? I said what if we had Bingo at night, because they usually like to play Bingo and we talked about that. You can't do that for money. You can do it for prizes but they're very limited in what they would accept for a prize that would make it worthwhile. You know I mean they're just a really hard group to try and figure out, and they can't even verbalize what it would take. Hoffman: Male teenagers cannot dance unless they're on their bike... ,.... 45 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 ...."I' Hoffman: Is that the same 3 guys that were cruising around for the July 4th Celebration too? The same 3. Berg: And they were just little kids. I mean they were 6th graders. There's not a junior in that high school that's going to come up and go to a dance with a 6th grader. That's what's scaring off the kids I talked to, that's one of the reasons. Hoffman: I heard, talked to some parents... Lash: But then the kids don't want to come. I mean that's one of the fears is that it's going to be too overly supervised. Hoffman: We thought about a concept of having a tent which is almost...exclusive to teens. So it'd be like...to get in. So you could have the whole festival going on just as we have in the past, and set up a separate tent where the disc jockey and... Other comments from the Rotary was not.. Initially we did hear from the snowmobile people that they did no better than any other year but the stuff that we offered did well financially. Lash: Well maybe we need to think about something, try to continue the old way at night and then also trying to provide something for teens. I think if teens are going to come, """" they're going to come whether it's designated teen or not and maybe we even used to have a better turnout when we didn't. I mean my kids always went before. Lemme: Last year we had a great band and we have probably 100 people were there. Lash: Last year? Ruegemer: Yeah, last year I spent $1,500.00 for that great band and you have to weigh, you've got to balance everything. Is it worth it to spend that kind of money and get a bad turnout. That's why we thought with the night thing, this isn't going anywhere. The Lion's even commented last, boy is this dead. Why are we doing this? Hoffman: We're a changing a community. We do not have, this thing does not have a ingrained tradition in the city of Chanhassen. We had a couple of people who said man, I didn't expect this...this is really hick. Lash: They should have stayed in Edina then. Huffman: Is this the proper time or place to talk about the $5.00 fee to the entrance to Lake Ann? 46 -' I""" Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 Lash: No. Andrews: Not yet. Lash: That will be in January. Andrews: Okay. I've got one more here. Ruegemer: Are you looking at the picnic evaluations? Huffman: No. That's just some little tiny nugget in my brain. Ruegemer: We went through those too. Every picnic evaluation would come back referencing the parking fee. Andrews: That will be coming up what, December? You've got that one booked in. Ruegemer: Yeah. """' Lash: January. Andrews: I received a letter from somebody quite young, and I can't. It says Dear Mr. Andrews. My mom won't let me ride too far on my bike because there is not enough space, spelled spase, on the road for bikes. So I am asking if you could make bike trails going to places such as Lake Susan bike path and to Chanhassen Elementary School. I live on Lake Riley Boulevard and I know the other kids in my neighborhood would use the paths too. But anyway, it's just basically a comment about again, the TH 101 corridor being a problem for kids to travel safely. This happens to be to the south but the same issue. Huffman: Where's our overhead bridge? Hoffman: The contractor... Berg: And thank whoever it was responsible for getting rid of all those cars. That was nice to see. Andrews: Any other presentations? APPROVAL OF MINUTES: I'" 47 Park and Rec Commission - September 27, 1994 --' Lash: I believe the meeting Minutes from July 26th were approved already previously. Hoffman: I'll check. Lash: I think it's in the 23rd Minutes that we approved them. I think so. Hoffman: Yep, you're right. August 23rd only. August 8th are still outstanding. Andrews: Any corrections to August, additions, corrections or deletions to August 23rd? Berg moved, Meger seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated August 23, 1994 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Roeser moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:25 p.m. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim ...", -" 48