PRC 1994 10 25
I""
OIANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREA nON COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
OcrOBER 25, 1994
Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Dave Huffman, Jane Meger, Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Jim Manders, Ron
Roeser, and Jim Andrews
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; Jerry Ruegemer,
Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor
ESTABLISH PROPOSED SPEED LIMITS AND HOURS OF USE FOR SNOWMOBILES
ON THE SOUTHWEST REGIONAL LIGHT RAIL lRANSIT ROUTE.
Todd Hoffman gave the staff presentation on this item for the commission.
Andrews: Thank you Todd. At this time I'll invite people from the audience to make
comments. I'll just remind you, this is not an opportunity to discuss pro or con. Do we want
",....... snowmobiles anymore? It's to discuss speed limits and curfew times. If there's anybody from
the audience that wishes to make a comment regarding the speed limits or the curfew times,
please step forward now. State your name and address and make a brief comment for the
record please.
LeRoy Biteler: LeRoy Biteler, 910 Penamint Court, Chanhassen. I don't have a great deal to
comment at all. Todd pretty much summed up exactly what we would like to see. The 30
mph speed limit, II :00 curfew. Numbers have been tossed around from 20 mph to 40 mph.
We actually have a number of 30 mph speed limit signs. We'd like to use those up. I guess
the other comment that I'd like to make, with our thinking of patrolling this trail, when we
can't get the DNR out there or the Carver County out there, and what I would personally tell
them, if they were putting up a speed trap, is that anything over 40 mph would automatically
get a ticket. No questions asked. No irs, and's or but's about it. 30 mph just keeps them
down that much slower. That's all really I have to comment unless you have questions.
Berg: What's the speed limit in Chaska? I know in Shorewood it's 20. Do you know what it
was in Chaska?
LeRoy Biteler: They really don't have any trails where they have a posted speed limit, other
than the inner city, in town and that might be 10 or 15 or 20 mph. Otherwise, statewide the
speed limit is 50 mph unless it's posted by a roadway or something like that.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
......,.,
Hoffman: The memo from Greg...states that no speed limit. Speed limit. No snowmobile
may be operated in excess of 10 mph on any street or in excess of 20 mph at any other
location within the city.
Andrews: Is there anybody else from the audience that wishes to make a comment? Okay.
I'll ask for comments from commission members please. Or a motion would be.
Berg: I have a couple of comments. I guess I'd like to see uniformity and I'd suggest
uniformity across the board and maybe because I suggested 20 mph originally when I was
talking about it a few weeks ago. In my mind, because Chaska has a 20 mph and as does the
Shorewood trail and we're consistent with our time curfew, I would just as soon see it
consistent with our speed limit as well. Just a suggestion.
Andrews: Personally I feel 20 mph, especially in the daylight, is a crawl. I mean that is
really slow and I just think it would be ignored. That's unnecessarily slow and I'm, I don't
know a snowmobile. I hate them, to be honest. I'd much prefer to walk or cross country ski
but 20 mph is, I mean they don't like to run at that speed.
Lash: You know I'm not actually, I'm not super knowledgeable about them but I know that
you have a lot of problems with over heating too and at slower speeds if the air temperature """""""
is a certain amount. Do you know more about that Dave?
Huffman: I know if I go faster, I get there sooner.
Lash: I know but I have snowmobiled in the past and I tend to.
Huffman: It's a doppler effect. I have a smaller doppler effect.
Lash: I tend to be kind of a conservative driver and I don't drive very fast and I've been
yelled at many times for driving too slow and then my engine starts to over heat and then you
have to stop and...
Roeser: I think that Shorewood trail has lots and lots of roads crossing it. You know from
Hopkins and Victoria, you go through a lot of intersections. On this trail down here, there's
two. I think 30 is really reasonable.
Lash: Do you know what it is going to be in Chaska? Have they decided yet or not? For
this section. Their section of this trail.
LeRoy Biteler: They've made no decisions and don't intend to.
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Lash: So they're not going to post it at all?
LeRoy Biteler: You're speaking about a speed limit in Chaska which is on city streets to get
on and off.
Roeser: Yeah, that's a different thing. City streets is different than a trail.
LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, we're not, Chaska isn't talking about a speed limit of 20 mph
throughout their entire trail system. As you get out into the further countryside of Chaska,
there's additional speed limits going up.
Lash: So it'd be the State guidelines.
LeRoy Biteler: That would be the State guidelines at that point.
Lash: And they have not discussed posting this particular trail?
LeRoy Biteler: No.
,......
Hoffman: This trail property ends right at Chaska.
Huffman: The other thing is this trail is very small. It's a very tiny segment of this whole
thing and all you're doing is this is a highway. It's not an off and on ramp. It's getting from
Point A to Point B and trying to get out farther. That's my understanding. t~
Andrews: I also think for people that may get on this trail in Eden Prairie with the hope of
getting out to the countryside, you know the difference between 20 mph and 30 mph adds a
significant amount of trail time to get out to the open country. I don't think 30 is an
unreasonable time. I think Mr. Biteler's comment about that they already have an inventory
of 30 mph signs, I mean that may sound silly but that's a good reason in my opinion to use
them too. If there's a problem, we can always make a change at a future date. I mean we're
not bound forever to stick with a posted limit.
Lash: When this comes up for the annual review, will it come to us first and then go to City
Councilor just come to us or what kind of a process do you think that will be?
Andrews: I don't believe that City Council put this up for annual review, did they?
Lash: Yes they did.
,....,
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
....",
Andrews: Okay.
Hoffman: Annual review. Come back to the Park Commission.
Huffman: Could I make a recommendation? I'm sorry, if somebody else wants to. I was
just going to make a motion that we offer the 30 mph speed limit on our section of the trail,
11 : 00 curfew 7 days a week.
Andrews: I guess one clarification Todd. Is there a starting time? I mean if you curfew
people off at 11 :00, what time are we letting them on?
Huffman: Let me amend that motion to II :00 p.m. off trails to 7:00 a.m. to be consistent
with Chaska.
Andrews: Is there a second to that motion?
Meger: I'll second that.
Andrews: Any further discussion?
'-'
Huffman moved, Meger seconded that the Pmk and Recreation Commission recommend a 30
mph speed limit and an 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m., seven days a week, curfew be established for
the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route. All voted in favor and the motion canied
unanimously.
lAND DEVEWPMENT PROPOSAL: REZONING OF 49.9 ACRES OF PROPERTY
ZONED A2. AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO R4. MIXED WW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL
AND PRELIMINARY PlAT OF 49.9 ACRES INTO 982 lWIN HOME WTS AND ONE
OUTLOT. WCATED NORm OF mGHWAY 5 APPROXIMATELY 1/4 MILE ON mE
EAST SIDE OF GALPIN BOULEVARD. WTUS REALTY SERVICES. lAKE ANN
HIGHlANDS.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: Is the applicant here?
Hoffman: No, he's not.
Andrews: Or a representative of the applicant.
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Hoffman: No.
Andrews: None, okay. If you'd like to make a comment. State your name and address
please.
John Hennesey: My name is John Hennesey. I'm at 7305 Galpin Blvd. I have, Jerry can
point those out for me please. Those two parcels there. I have to wonder, there has been no
decision as far as I know as far as putting a trail on the east or the west side of Galpin yet.
Andrews: I believe we're leaning towards.
Hoffman: Both sides.
Andrews: Both sides, okay.
John Hennesey: A trail on both sides of Galpin?
,-...
Hoffman: At least on the south side of Highway 5 and the north side of Highway 5, it will
carry less traffic. South of TH 5 you'll see a four lane road. North of TH 5 it's at least
anticipated at this time that will remain a two lane road. We have not designated east or
west. Usually one will go first and then the other one would come later as things fill in but
we haven't designed east or west at this time.
Lash: I know we did acquire an' easement, didn't we on the Lundgren site on the west side.
John Hennesey: Yeah, because I know I haven't been approached at all as far as acquiring an
easement along my 450 feet of frontage on Galpin yet. This whole project's a little bit, looks
to me like putting the cart in front of the horse inasmuch as there is no determination yet
where the parkway paralleling TH 5 is going to go. Whether it will be on the east side of the
creek, which would be to the south of my southern border, or on the north side of the creek
which would cut that lower parcel of mine in half. Without knowing that, how can you make
any type of dedication?
Andrews: I can probably answer that. I served on the Highway 5 task force. The people
that own the land have the right to develop and not wait for the ultimate decision as to where
the road will be placed. I think this may be just somebody seizing the opportunity to say, I'd
rather have it my way rather than wait for the State and the City to come by and tell us what
they would prefer. So this might be their way of trying to do the best they can for
themselves. And you're right, there's been no decision yet as to the exact layouts of the road.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
--'
The last time I heard I think we're talking what, 2000. I think they pushed it out some more
years I know that.
Hoffman: ...they can enter this from the north but all those types of questions would be
appropriately brought up at the Planning Commission.
John Hennesey: I notice on the plan here he's got a fairly large stretch of road from here...
Andrews: Again, the Highway 5 access boulevard was designed as a wide collector. It also
had a right-of-way to allow for a separate trail. Separated by, I think it was at least 12 feet of
buffer so it's a fairly wide right-of-way. So it would look, on a map, significantly larger than
a standard side street.
John Hennesey: But that still hasn't been determined whether it's going north or south.
Andrews: On the creek?
John Hennesey: Yes.
Andrews: There was a preference but there's been no decision and to be honest, I don't recall -"
which way the preference was anymore. But there was a preference but that, like I said, has
not been approved.
John Hennesey: Okay. So as far as what he's dedicating, is that still up in the air?
Andrews: As far as the roadway goes?
John Hennesey: No, what he'd be dedicating land wise for this trail and park.
Andrews: What we're asking is he dedicate money. What Todd was saying is that this whole
plat is within a service area of other park areas so rather than for us to take land, the
recommendation would be to take cash.
Lash: Yeah, we'd take cash and then is it not that we would take easement along TH 41?
Hoffman: Along CR 117, Galpin?
Lash: Yeah, that's what I mean.
......,;'
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."""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Hoffman: They're requiring additional right-of-way for the road, this county road so we'll go
ahead and construct our trail within that right-of-way.
John Hennesey: Thank you.
Andrew: Sure. I guess the only comment I'd like to add here is 94 twin homes, that's about
180 plus kids. Boy, I would hope the developer might find it within their pockets to put up a
play structure. Perhaps that would be appreciated.
John Hennesey: Excuse me sir, I think what his plans, in talking with Brad, he's telling me
that these are mostly designed as more single level, geared towards retirement.
Andrews: Okay. I guess I would assume if a developer could sell one of these to a family,
that they'd be happy to take the money.
Roeser: Yeah, I think they've been using that a lot lately.
Huffman: My 64 year old grandmother went horse bike riding and bowling with us this past
"..... weekend and I think she likes to have a little area to call her own too.
Lash: And a lot of retired people have grandkids that come and. visit and then they have
nothing to do when they go to grandma's.
Huffman: Say Todd, a quick question. I don't understand this one as much. Maybe this has' i:
already been conversed, and I don't want to hold this one up at all. This sounds like Rottlund
on TH 101. They're pushing a lot of townhouses in here. They're telling us they're going to
bring in the kindly old people who don't want a lot of space. We're about to go and push for
a referendum asking for space. They're going to have to go across a major collector to get to
their designated play area across Highway 5, which only the Lord in his infinite wisdom, or
her infinite wisdom, knows when that underpass will ever be built. So we're going to tell 180
families, which they will sell it to quicker than will get built, there's no park there for you. If
you drive to it.
Andrews: That's correct.
Huffman: I'm trying, I don't like this.
Andrews: It doesn't make economic sense for us to build a park across the street from
another park.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
.....,;
Huffman: I understand that.
Lash: Well especially when you've got Stockdale. You've got the elementary site. And then,
granted they are both across major collectors and I don't like that either and then you have
Lake Ann, which by the time these are filled up, I'm assuming we may be getting close to the
point where there will be a trail along TH 5 where they could go by foot to Lake Ann. And
crossing Galpin between now and then I don't look at as being as big a problem as crossing
TH 5. That's obviously going to be a problem, even if there is a light there, which is
supposed to go in sometime in the near future but that still will be a dangerous proposition.
But I'd be hard pressed to ask for property. I don't necessarily like it either Dave but it's hard
when we're trying to build up some money in a fund too to acquire property when it's within
the radius of three different parks.
Berg: Particularly when other areas are deficient. It'd be hard to justify a park across the
street when there's other areas that don't have one across the street or even close.
Huffman: Are we talking about a park or an open space here? I mean I'm asking at this
point.
Lash: Either way you look at it, it's money out of our fund so if we don't take the money,
the park at Stockdale's never going to get developed. You know it could be that this could be
the money that's going to come in that's going to give us the money to develop Stockdale.
....""
Andrews: Yeah, it's a trade.
Hoffman: At Mission Hills you got both the open space and the park fee because it was a
PUD. As far as I know, this is not a PUD. At least I don't see it referenced anywhere in the
materials that I have and I've not heard...conversations with the planner. So the Mission Hills
we were able to go ahead and ask for that open space because we were giving them
something so that's why we asked for some open space. This one, if it's not a PUD, you don't
have the luxury but if any of you want to...make it public space, I can't advocate that because
we're not into building breast pocket parks. So then it would need...
Andrews: Yeah. I guess I think the best we can do here is to state for the Council that we're
concerned about access to the neighboring parks, which are waiting for development. That
being the trails. The access trails. They need to be built. And maybe this means we've got
to push the Highway 5 upgrade a little harder because I think what Dave said is true too.
These things .will be occupied probably before the road is even built. There's going to be 180
potential families that are landlocked. They can't get out of there and as somebody that lives
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
in a landlocked neighborhood right now, it's pretty frustrating to not feel safe to travel out of
your neighborhood so.
Hoffman: 94 home sites total. So we double...
Lash: That is twin. That's counting them each separate?
Hoffman: Yeah, they each have their own lot. The density is considerably less than that of
Mission Hills. Mission Hills was R12...this is R4. 4 units per acre. These people will have
a yard, front and back.
Roeser: We're just talking Phase I too right now, is that right?
Hoffman: No, Phase I and Phase II and the outlot.
John Hennesey: Of course Phase II can't develop until sewer is accessed to that Highway 5
side. Phase I will access from the back...Windmill Run.
"...... Lash: And when is that?
John Hennesey: Pardon?
Lash: When is that going to happen, do you know?
John Hennesey: The Phase II? ...Kate told me the other day.
Lash: Is that the '95 study area?
Andrews: No.
Huffman: I've seen miraculous things happen when Phase I sells out though. It's amazing
how quickly Phase II can go into action.
Andrews: Well this might be the kind of development too that will kind of push things
along. Get the road built. Get the trails built. Sometimes that's the push you need. Can we
have a motion?
,....
Lash: I'd be willing to make a motion. I recommend that the Park and Rec Commission
recommend to the City Council to approve the Lake Ann Highlands and collect full park and
trail fees, to be collected per city ordinance in lieu of land dedication and/or trail construction.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
-'"
Andrews: Is there a second?
Berg: Second.
Andrews: Any further discussion?
Lash moved, Berg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the
City Council require full park and trail fees be collected per city onlinance in lieu of land
dedication and/or trail constmction for Lake Ann Highlands. All voted in favor and the
motion canied unanimously.
Andrews: Again, I'd like to add the comment for the Council that we're concerned about
construction of trails to provide access to neighboring park sites.
ESTABLISH AN AGENDA FOR mE WORK SESSION WITH mE CITY COUNCIL IN
REGARD TO THE PROPOSED PARK. OPEN SPACE AND TRAIL ACOUISmON AND
DEVEWPMENT REFERENDUM AND PARK AND RECREATION GOALS.
Andrews: Todd, I don't know how much detail you need on an agenda for this. For what it's """""
worth, I took a stab at one. I guess I'll throw this out as an idea and this is pretty vague. I
don't know if you need more specifics. I just put item 1. as goal. setting. Item 2 as
referendum. And I put a sub-hearing (a), discuss overall needs of capital. (b), prioritize
needs. (c), establish time frame and number of dollars necessary.
Berg: What did you have in mind when you said goal setting?
Andrews: That's the overall Park Board goal setting that we go through annually to talk
about what do we want to accomplish next year. And I guess I put that first because I figure
the referendum would be part of that goal and that way we could get that accepted as a goal
first and then push through it to provide details to what the referendum would be.
Lash: And I'd like to have that clarified that, and no offense you guys but that it not
necessarily be staff goals because that ate up our whole meeting last time.
Manders: Frankly I think that goal setting could be at the end and the assumption is that the
goal is to get this referendum through and deal with these other goals as a secondary issue.
Lash: W ell my goal for meeting with them is to convince them that we need to pursue at
least having a task force to study this issue and the task force I thought was the one who was
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
supposed to be coming up with all the different things that we want the referendum to cover
and dollar estimates for that. Was that correct? That was my understanding.
Hoffman: Yeah. It's really a give and take process. You have a back and forth process as
far as referendum. The City Council has not asked all the specific questions on how much
information they're going to want to see prior to establishing a task force. So what we need
to bring in is as much information as we can. Why go out and cheat the moon when they're
going to come back and say, well we don't...so the task force is going to do the detailed work.
It's kind of how obstructionist do you want to be and how many questions you can ask... If
the City Council backs us, they'll go along with it and ask some questions.
Andrews: Well you were asking for us to have an agenda so you could have material ready
for us, correct? And to me, to discuss the overall needs of capital, that's the most critical
thing. We have to show them why do we need money? Bandimere. The trails. Lake
Minnewashta, the new park there. We've got Stockdale. We've got the desire to buy some
forested land. Some open space or prairie space. I think those are all.
Lash: Some more park property too. Is that what you want from us? Just some ideas of
,......, what it is that we're looking at things that we would want to have fall under the referendum
to be financed by the referendum so that you can pull together more information, or what do
you want?
Hoffman: I want your ideas on what we should discuss with the City Council. What are the
key factors that are important to you in. order. to. convince them that they should go ahead
with this thing. We just want to set an agenda. Now if you want to, and I need to know
which one goes first. If you want the referendum first or goal setting. You know how goal
setting, I don't care if they're your goals or our goals, but try to make it specific because I
don't want to sit there and talk about staff goals for the entire.
Andrews: Why don't we put the referendum first so we don't get bogged down and eat up all
our time.
Lash: Well actually it ends up, it's hand and glove. I mean if we have to say, we want to
have a task force. We want to study the possibility of having a referendum and these are the
reasons why. We need to develop Bandimere. We want to try and preserve some mature
treed areas along with construction of TH 212, whenever that happens.
Huffman: Bluff Creek charette.
,....
Lash: Right. Preserve Bluff Creek. We want.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
--'
Huffman: A golf course.
Lash: Well whatever. I mean as that goes on we're going to be listing the kinds of reasons
for the kinds of things that we would like to see happen and that we don't have the funding
for and I think it's the same thing. Goals and, the goals will be met by the referendum...a
referendum and then we can go home.
Berg: Jan's brought up a couple times, one of the things that I'd like to make sure we see is
some sort of condensed version of the map that we had on the floor. Showing where the
needs are and how quickly they're disappearing and how many there aren't. Sometimes just
the shock value of that is enough to shake them out of their...too. They might not be able to
see the forest through the trees and really not have an idea of what we don't have anymore.
Andrews: That was a surprising experience to me because I was assuming that basically all
of western Chanhassen was out there. We could go pick what we wanted.
Lash: And southern too.
Andrews: Yeah, and southern too. When I saw that geez, we're down to 3 spots.
--'
Berg: And if it surprised you, and it's our business to know, they might not be totally aware
of it either.
Meger: How difficult would it be to do that map too and maybe in different colors showthe"~
things that were developed in '94. Things in '93 and '92 so they can see too how quickly
every year it's going fast.
Lash: W ell and the things that are up for development or that have been plotted or that you
know are coming in that are out of our reach. Basically it narrows down to you're going to
end up with about 3 little green squares, and green I would say would be anything that we
would want to try and preserve. So whether it be the treed areas or Bluff Creek or possible
park sites, that's going to narrow it down and a picture will be worth a 1,000 words.
Roeser: Just to know what's available or what's left of the town that we canolook<atis really
what we need to know.
Andrews: That's sort of the preservation side. I also think as we talked about before, we
need to look at the development of our active use parks, Bandimere being the big one. To
me it seems just ridiculous that we're sitting on what, 30+ acres and we can't do anything
with it. That seems really silly.
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,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Meger: I think they also need to be aware too, we're upgrading a little more about some of
the ADA requirements and how expensive that can get.
Lash: And not even just for upgrading. For anything new that we're putting in.
Andrews: Yeah.
Hoffman: Your items (a) and (b) Jim?
Andrews: You could paraphrase or alter it but I think what we're looking at here is to discuss
the overall need of capital. I think we could break that down into preservation and
development of park property. Preservation being, would be to purchase. I was going to say,
preservation would include, or mainly include acquisition. B was to try to prioritize those
items and then a third item was to try to identify some sort of timeframe and the number of
dollars necessary to accomplish the task. But at some point we have to come up with a dollar
figure.
Lash: I don't think we'll be able to do that that night.
I"""
Andrews: Well, we won't be able to get it. I agree, we won't get a dollar figure but I think
we have to have some idea. I mean we've got to have, you half a million, million, whatever
it is.
Berg: Is it best to do that oris,itgood to point out again the fact that we don't have any
money so no matter what it costs, we couldn't do it without a referendum.
Lash: Right. And the other thing is, we don't know for sure at this point, or I don't know for
sure at this point how this referendum is going to shake out. Before when there was a
referendum, it covered items were separated. There was expansion of Lake Ann Park. There
was acquiring property in southern Chanhassen and there was trails. Were those the 3 things.
So it may end up being broken down somehow like that and dollar amounts if it goes to the
voters so, and I think it would be hard for us to come up with.
Andrews: Maybe it's premature.
Lash: Yeah, I can't see how we can come up with something. Well once we get, I think if
we communicate these needs to them and if they're in agreement with us, then we can look at
it and come up with a logical grouping. So if we want to have procurement of new, future
properties. Development of already acquired property and preservation of wooded and open
,....
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
...."
lands, or something like that. And if we want to have a trails one on there too, so maybe
there would be four logical categories that they would fall into.
Huffman: My understanding is though, the way the City Council really works is if they look,
they will take whatever lump sum you offer them and then pare down and come back and say
to you at some point, okay. You wanted a half a million, we give you 350 or 250 or
whatever. I mean do we go with them with a very specific force, specific ideas within
preservation. We have to have a, b, c, d. I mean we cannot just give you this nebulous. I
think we have to be very specific about what we want.
Lash: I don't think voters would ever approve something that would be a blank check type
thing.
Huffman: Well that's what I'm saying but if we go in with again offering the general, but
even more specific. I mean what do we want?
Andrews: Well I think though that, first of all this isn't a budget item so they don't need to
cut anything. This is new dollars they're looking at so there might be less of a temptation to
say, well we just can't afford that. Cut it. And I think again a task force would help
prioritize. Maybe decide that this; fourth priority item is just, doesn't meet the same priorities ....,
that the other three do and that's the recommendation.
Lash: Well once we get, once, if and when we get the blessing to go for the referendum and
if it's split into different categories, it doesn't make any difference to the City Councilor to
anyone because it's the same amount of money to put out a referendum. It's what, $10,000.00
or something to put a referendum out to the vote so if we want to have 50 different things for
people to vote on, it isn't going to make any difference and so then we need to start getting
more specific with the money amount because we don't want to under estimate and say we
want a million dollars to purchase new land and then find out we can't do anything with a
million dollars. Or say we want we want $500,000.00 for Bandimere and find out it costs 2
million.
Huffman: So this is not the time to deal, we do not>need to do this right now,
Berg: What I've seen of the City Council in the last3 years, I think if we can get them 'to
agree to a task force, we've got a victory at this point.
Lash: And I think the task force can spend the time and the energy researching how much,
you know with staffs help, how much would be a reasonable amount to plug into each of the
different categories that we want to have. And maybe we don't want to have it split into
"""'"
14
I"""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
different categories. I mean there's up and downs, pluses and minuses to both of them. If
you split it into different things, you have the opportunity of one passing and the rest of them
aren't.
Berg: The school district hired a firm to test the community and see what exactly they did
want before they shot the referendum on the schools and that might be something they want
to look at too.
Andrews: I'm sure we will do that.
Berg: That will tell us, do we want to break it up into two sections or four sections. We
should get a feel from the community in that regard.
Andrews: We've done that before and I'm sure we would do that again if we're going out for
a big referendum.
r-
Lash: But the up side is, that you break it into smaller pieces, chances are you're liable to get
at least 1 or 2 to pass where if you have a multi million dollar one, the whole thing may fail
and you'll get nothing. So a little is better than nothing. We kind of have to weigh the.
Berg: Maybe, maybe not.
Huffman: I go for the fences. That's just my personal philosophy.. I think if you nickel and
dime it, people will say well if we do this little bit here, then they'll get off our back and we
won't see us for 5 years. As it was pointed out last time, '95 may be our window of
opportunity. '96 something else is coming up. '97 there's another. I mean there's 3 or 4
things out there already and this is our window and if we don't present something that is
palatable but with need. You know Jim and Fred both said, it's going. We're losing it.
We're not going to have a '96. We're not going to have a '97. It's going to be gone and
people are going to look at us 10 years from now and go, the Tim McGee article. A very
misleading, very erroneous in it's assumptions and his statements but somebody's read it.
Lash: A lot of people have read it.
Huffman: Yeah. And I called the gentleman. Left the name and number at the Villager. He
did call back twice. I was at work both times. Didn't connect and haven't heard back but to
me one statement of untruth and falsehood is going to hurt us. I mean we've got to come up
really on an upswing.
~
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
....;
Lash: But we need, Jane and I were talking about that before the meeting started and I said
my knee jerk, initial reaction to that was I was going to call them or I was going to write a
rebuttal or something but I think we need to be really careful how we do this because one of
the things we've discussed a couple of different times, we do not want to appear, I do not
want to appear that we're trying to force anything on anyone or jam it down someone's throat
and if we start getting too defensive about everything that comes out in the paper, it's going
to look like we're trying to sell something instead of just trying to provide people the
opportunity of making a choice based on the fact that we're providing...
Huffman: I accept that but.
Lash: I mean we do have to do some things.
Andrews: Excuse me, I have to leave so Jan, I have to ask you to take over for me at this
point.
Lash: So when I said the comments about breaking it into pieces or having one, I don't
know. I know nothing about, I'm just thinking to myself, there's probably pluses and minuses
to both of them and I don't know enough about it. We would need to talk to somebody who
knows a lot more about those kinds of factors before we would decide how we would want to ....;
present it to voters and I think that's a ways down the road. Like Fred said, I think if we can
sell this to the City Council to at least get the task force together and start getting figures
together and a plan together, that's our first hurdle. Then we'll have to figure out where to go
from then . based on the research that's done and getting back to us.
Manders: Personally I have a good. sense that it's not going to take a lot of convincing to get
the approval for this task force so to deal with a lot of detail, I'm not dismissing it. To have
a nice outline of our say the four objectives, be it preservation, parks, trails, what are they. I
mean that certainly should be there and if we have some kind of feel for, guesstimate on
dollars, how many miles of trails are we looking for that we need short term? Not way down
the road and what are some of our initial ballpark guesses. There's no need to get into a lot
of detail and if they can't buy off on that, then we're out in left field on this whole thing.
Lash: Maybe we could go with those. four subcategories and under each category put the
things that. we consider to be our priorities. If it's development, it will. be. Bandimere and
what else? Minnewashta? I mean I don't know if we're talking neighborhood parks too or if
we're just talking big ticket things here. And then under preservation it would be Bluff Creek
and some of these other wooded areas that are down south and acquirement of future park
properties. I mean we can earmark. There's 2 or 3 sites available and it wouldn't be too hard
to get an idea of what those would cost.
-"
16
,..." Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Huffman: Can you, I'm throwing this out because I'm going to come back to this time and
time again but another category, a revenue producer in this city. Something that will allow
the Park and Rec Commission over the years to have something instead of going back to the
City Council time and time again, a golf course. Chaska's building an 18 holer. We're
looking around you can read the stats. They've had people present it here before. It may not
be hot with everybody but here is a way for this commission to establish income over years
and years and years. After the first year it's breaking even. It's a revenue producing part of
recreation that this community could grow on and develop on. It doesn't have to be an 18
holer, whatever but is this something that I'm going to stand up here alone and push, because
if it is, I'll dump it now.
Lash: Well this is not a new discussion. We've discussed it several times and in the end
we've always sort of dumped it and the last time, wasn't it because there was no sites. We
didn't think there was anyplace that we could put one. Wasn't that the, in the end we decided
if it ever happens, it would be somehow that the city would end up acquiring Bluff Creek.
Huffman: If we're talking about long range goals here I mean, and I know for a fact there
have been presentations made before the City Council and this group. It is a money maker.
~ It pays for itself. It brings revenue into the community. You look at Bluff Creek. It's poorly
maintained from a golfers standpoint as that thingis; It brings people from all parts of the
city. From the community it makes money.
Lash: Was it not that we looked at the city and said there was no place that would work for
a golf course.
Hoffman: Well, I don't think there's anyplace that would work for an 18 hole golf course.
That would be ideal but Chanhassen certainly has enough open available space where we
could do a 9 hole course.
Huffman: An executive course. A 9 holer.
Lash: Isn't that something Mike Gorra is looking at too? Or he's kicked around hasn't he, or
not?
Hoffman: Yeah. Just as one concept for that property. But Bluff Creek as well..;developer
buys that and wants to put houses on it...so golf course. Chaska's they've got 100 acres south
of Lake Bavaria. They may add to that and put up another municipal golf course. Hennepin
County is going to take the property that they have...
Roeser: Glen Lake?
I"""
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
.....,.,
Hoffman: Glen Lake, yeah and put a golf course up there but certainly the thing to do, I
spoke to the Director of Roseville...at the conference and they just have one little executive 9
hole course that's very, very short and it's just a gold mine.
Huffman: Look what Bloomington did with that thing right off of, well not even Dwawn.
Right down there. The Normandale Executive course again. They took a million and half
dollars and put it back in there. They've already made their money in one summer. It's paid
for already and it's a tiny little course. It takes an hour to play and you can't get on it. You
can't get on it. We talk about what people's needs and services are but here's away, and I
don't know, if we structure it, that it's our toy. This will take care of acquisition and
preservation. How do we upgrade our parks? Well, 20% of everything that comes out of that
golf course comes back to the Park and Rec department and then we don't have to go back
every November or January and beg to a constantly changing City Council with political
whims and motivations, for their reason for being there. We have something that we can
actually do and improving the community constantly. And I don't know if I'm blowing up the
wrong tree but I've read enough and heard enough that's just been presented here that, and
especially with the population we have now. This is an unbelievable idea. Am I on the
wrong course?
Roeser: Not necessarily. I just can't think of where, I'm thinking of the town and I don't see --'
where you could put a golf course in town.
Huffman: I'm not talking 18 holes anymore. We're not talking Bearpath.
Roeser: Talking 9, I don't know where.
Lash: We're open to ideas here. I mean if that's what this task force is going to do...and find
out different things that could fill the needs and residents in town. Put that on the list and
add a task force to study it.
Huffman: Maybe that's part of our deal.
Lash: Maybe it's feasible, maybe it's not. I don't know.
Huffman: It's a referendum to buy a spot. Buy however many acres to put one on. Develop
and grow it and have it.
Manders: I think the point that Todd made was most important and that being, if Bluff Creek
gets sold, how are you going to react.
....."
18
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Huffman: I don't think that's a question of if. I mean it's a question of when.
Manders: Okay, so how can we position ourselves to take advantage of that. To me that's
the perfect spot to put it. It's already there. How could we acquire that and make that work?
Hoffman: Buy it.
Berg: I support the golf course idea. I'll preface my comment with that, but I see the golf
course concept as taking a philosophical shift from what we've been talking about concerning
acquisition of parkland and improving parkland. You used the word toy. It is and I think
that's the way it might be perceived by a lot of the community.
Huffman: I would look at it as, at this point in our development history, my short period
here, the one thing I have heard time and time again is money. We all like open space. We
all want parks. Every day I drive down to work I go down TH 101 and I look over on the
left hand side and I see that sign weather another day. Future site of Bandimere Park. If it
takes a toy to pay for the good things that we want and that toy is a benefit to the
community, which is also a recreational amenity, that is our mission statement that Ian was so
"'" eloquently quoted at the last City Council meeting. I mean if there may be a philosophical
problem with that some people may have but I also see it, maybe in this case, the end
justifies the means because it puts it where we truly wish to be in some areas.
Berg: Intellectually Dave I agree with you. But if I'm a voter and I'm trying to decide, if we
put this all into one referendum let's say. One lump and I have to decide and I'm looking, on "'~
one hand you're going to provide softball fields for my daughter. You're going to provide
soccer fields at Bandimere. But you're also going to build a golf course that a select few
number are going to use. And a select number will use Bandimere too, if I can anticipate
what you'll say. I see that as a real big difference. I see we're gearing ourselves to families
at every aspect of those four things that we're talking about. Whether it be preservation of
land, improvement and development of Bandimere, acquisition of more land either for
preservation or for development later on. I see that differently than I do seeing buying a golf
course.
,....
Huffman: See I can't philosophically separate those because I look at then at the University
of Minnesota. There's an active structure based within the University. of Minnesota,thatis a-
public entity. That is a money making profit center. One of only profitable athletic tools
they have over there. There is construction on that course which would fall right into what
Jerry and Dawn want to use as a teaching tool in this community. To me appealing to two
segments. If all of a sudden I have appealed to another segment who doesn't have daughters
and sons playing on softball, what do I care. I mean you want to tax another $135.00 on
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
-..I
something that realistically I will not use because I don't have kids. We've got 94 twin town
homes full of old people here and all of a sudden I've got 94 twin townhomes where I could
set up a driving range for $100.00 a year. They can come out and hit golf balls all summer.
Berg: Or they can walk across the street to swings.
Huffman: Or they can come and get $100.00 deal and get a heck of a lot better deal than we
can give.
Roeser: I think what Dave is saying, you're talking about something that will make money.
That's basically what you're telling us. You're talking about something that may...
Huffman: I think it has the capability of establishing, one. I don't think there's a lot of
people that perceive that as a negative. I think there's a lot of people who would say, wow.
Berg: I'm one of them but I see, that Ron, that crystalize it a little bit too. Y ou're saying a
money maker versus a play area or a trail.
Huffman: Well how do we take every person who has ever called up here Todd, and you tell
them why can't we put something in their park. What don't we have? We don't have the ...",;
funds to put it into your park. We get a 9 hole golf course, that is our toy. Our folly.
Berg: We won't have to say it as often.
Huffman: We don't do that, but you know what that will allow us to do? 20% of every
dollar that comes off the top of there, goes right into the Park and Rec budget. The State
lottery publicus itself as education's best friend. Raise crime against nature. The lottery.
Here we have something that actually puts back into the community and will put the toy back
on your property, which is your new swingset. Which is the new accessibility to the park.
To the rec area. I'm agreeing with you. I mean I'm understanding but.
Berg: Yeah, I'm understanding your point of view but, intellectually I understand it. I just
don't think it's appropriate to be on the same referendum with the acquisition of.
Lash: Unless the referendum were to be broke down.
Berg: Unless it were to be broken down.
Huffman: Well see I would go for that but I would really like to push for that.
....",
20
,.,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Lash: We're obviously not deciding tonight what's going to go on the referendum. All we're
trying to do, what I feel our goal here tonight is to brainstorm the kinds of things we want to
put forward to the City Council. Ultimately they're going to have the power and if they all
think a golf course is a poor idea, it's not going to go on there anyway. So why don't
you...open it up for discussion.
Huffman: But I don't want to waste the time if I'm sitting here blowing smoke because
you've all given a good idea.
Roeser: No, I don't think so at all. I think that if it comes up, if we're going to make
recommendations to the task force, there's no reason why a golf course can't be one of the
things that the Park and Rec certainly lays open for them to discuss.
Manders: Peaks my interest in this whole thing is revenue generation. We need it and any
way we could...
Lash: Well Jane brought up a point earlier tonight. What's going to happen when all of
these, when the land is gone and it's all developed? What are we going to do then? Granted
",,-- we'll probably all be gone but there will be no money coming in for maintenance. And for
upgrading of things and then there's going tohave.to. be money coming from somewhere.
Whether it's the tax roll or it's coming from a golf course or user fees or wherever, it's going
to have to come from somewhere and this may be a possible solution. The one problem that
I see with it, and again that would be totally up to the voters, is they're not going to
understand the financial concept or the implications behind the golf course. They're just
going to say, I don't play golf...or I play golf.
Huffman: No, that's not true.
Roeser: That's not true. I think that's got to be pointed out.
Lash: But I don't know that it will be enough for them to grasp it.
Roeser: The people that are going to be, the people on this task force, the people .on the Park
and Rec Commission and certainly the people on the Council, we're hoping are going to be
backing this referendum if and when it happens and certainly they're going to point out the
fact that if we build a golf course it's going to be used for what Dave is talking about.
Huffman: I mean we're not building, the obvious thing is a lot of people golf on Friday and
Saturdays and Sundays and go play and everything but the reality is, this is a growing sport
,.....
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
......",
that will allow us a couple, offer another opportunities in this community to have summer
activities for kids.
Lash: Summer jobs.
Huffman: There's an opportunity for a lot of different things. There's an opportunity for rec
programs that present another option for kids. But where are we going to get the cash to take
care of the new park we have done with. And I understand that people are going to go, oh
wow. We're not building Bearpath. You know I want to build a little bit better than Chaska
Par 30. But try to get on that thing on a Wednesday morning at 7:00. It's a mile long out
there and they're all paying $12.00 a pop. Knowing that that money goes into the city park
fees and it goes into there. I mean you're going to have people who will go, well now
chemicals and the environmental impact and we're going to have to deal with that issue. But
we could do away with fertilizers and pesticides everywhere and shut down a lot of things.
I'm willing to play the game. I'm willing to run with this because I'm not smart enough to
not.
Lash: Are you willing to have it on the agenda to discuss with City Council?
Huffman: That's,what I'm asking. If you, Fred seriously, if you feel that, I won't bring it up .....",
because if it's a volatile issue.
Roeser: I don't think it's that volatile that we can't discuss it with them, right.
Huffman: 1 want to be real sensitive here I mean because I know.
Berg: A lot of it depends on the way it's brought up, quite frankly. I think if we're talking
about things that we would like to have the task force consider, as a fifth item I would say, I
can go along with it. I don't want, my own personal opinion, I don't want it to have any
higher priority than that. I want the other four things first. Just speaking for myself.
Huffman: I completely, and you know what, I'll concur with that because what I will do at
the very end, and my tag line on everything wilL be, and nobody will like it. You may not.
like it but it will be, and one of the ways that we're going to be able to supplement every one
of these other 4 things is right down here, this bottom thing. I know that. I don't believe it.
I know it. All you have to do is go to Chaska and Eden Prairie. When Eden Prairie, when
what's the little private golf course over there now?
Roeser: Edenvale?
....."
22
"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Huffman: Edenvale. You know they had a chance to buy that. Didn't want to do that. That
guy bought it and all of a sudden he turned it private, he's making it after 2 years now. It is
a way, I don't even believe it, I know it. It's a way to really make some of the dreams that
we want to have possible, come true. But I will sit back and I will bring it the very back
side and I don't want to step on anybody's toes and I don't want to offend anybody with it. If
it is that bad, I'll jump off the idea.
Berg: I'd like to see the task force investigate it.
Huffman: Okay. And I'll broach it very quietly and very silently.
Berg: You will?
Huffman: When I have to dance, I can dance.
Berg: Is someone coming in to speak for you?
Ruegemer: Did you prioritize...?
,.....
Lash:.1 don't think that we prioritized. Do you want them prioritized?
Hoffman: Well, you put golf on the bottom at 5.
Huffman: Well golfs 5. Or 6. Or whatever is last.
Hoffman: Okay. I don't think I have 4 other ones. I have trails.
Lash: It was development of existing.
Hoffman: I've got Bandimere.
Lash: Okay. It's acquiring future properties. It's preservation. And I'm thinking like active
facilities or parks. And then there'd be preservation of natural areas or open areas and trails,
Hoffman: Procurement of natural areas, procurement of park areas are two different things?
Lash: I look at it as.
Roeser: Why don't you just make it procurement.
,...,
23
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
....,.,
Huffman: Procurement of (a) and (b).
Berg: Yeah, we're spelling out everything else in detail. I think that could cover it.
Hoffman: So you've got...Land procurement, trails, Bandimere.
Huffman: Figure out something else and put golf down one farther then.
Lash: Can you put procurement/preservation so that we...Is there anything else that anyone
feels the need to have on the agenda?
Hoffman: We've all gone through the exercises with the big map and we've all drawn
squiggly lines. Land procurement is going to be pretty easy to spell out...We can either roll
out the big map and start the meeting. Then we can add the smaller maps showing what's
been developed in the past 5 years and what's left. We can even start to put, we know we
need to pay $24,000.00 to $30,000.00 per acre plus in the MUSA line and we still haven't got
a definitive number outside the MUSA line but it's going to be somewhere around
$15,000.00, even as high as $20,000.00 per acre at the present day so we can start to get
some...What you've all been tossing around, $100,000.00, you'd better get into the millions
andAyou'd better' get into the $540 $10 million range fairly quickly here or we're not going to ....,.,
get far. Trails, that's a little tougher one. I, as Director of your department have a lot of
ideas on where we're going to pick up a trail segment and go ahead and build it. We've taken
policies that we'll build the trails with road improvements and we're on line and Powers
Blvd's going to go in on both sides in 1995.
Lash: The whole way?
Roeser: So maybe trails should be moved down.
Berg: Maybe trails should be fourth. If they're going to develop anyway.
Hoffman: Yeah, TH 101 north may go on there. TH 101 north is not yet decided. That
would be half a million dollars in itself and nobody's...thatthat road is going to be built so
there's a push right now to build the trails and let them think about the road for the next 10
years.
Roeser: Did anybody ever consider connecting those neighborhoods away from Highway
101? Is that a possibility? Bringing them all the way up to Kurvers Point at least. And then
get somehow.
.....,
24
IfI"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Hoffman: Jim Andrews wanted to do that.
Roeser: I think it would require some cooperation from neighbors and neighborhoods.
Hoffman: There's no way.
Lash: They want to be able to get through town but not just through their neighborhood.
Roeser: Yeah, not through my road.
Hoffman: There's a lot of houses, there's 2 houses needed between every street.
Roeser: That's what I'm thinking. If you could get from neighborhood to the street and then
next neighborhood and then hit, you know. It's just not possible. ...And just getting away
from TH 101 and let TH 101 be there.
,....,
Lash: Is the trail something that if you gave us some thought, you'd be able to come up with
some things or is it something we just need to...
{There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Hoffman: TH 101 is the only one at the present time. We don't have these properties...Bluff
Creek trail is going to take some funding.
Lash: How about the underpass under TH 5? Is that something we're going to try and get a
grant for or how is that ever going to be a reality?
Hoffman: Yeah, the grants and then the road construction itself... will be built when
development goes in but not very many of them. Heritage will be. And then once you drop
south of the railroad tracks, all of those have already been developed. We've taken the
easements but we would have to build the trail segment so that would be a portion. At least
they'd want to build that from Highway 5...
Berg: Yeah but to show our fiscal responsibility, it might not be a bad idea to say we
considered trails and decided that at this point it's not appropriate. But mention that to the
City Council and also the task force and if the task force comes back with trails as a
necessity, so be it.
Hoffman: Oh yeah. Trails is the number one request by.
,...
25
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
-'"
Roeser: Most people that you talk to.
Huffman: Where does trail maintenance come from? I mean upgrading and maintaining and.
Hoffman: Currently it's taken out of your 410 fund. This year we switched it all into park
maintenance which is about $30,000.00...
Lash: Well I think it's definitely something that the task force can study more and maybe
they'll see that it isn't worth a chunk of money right now and to do it as we've done it over
the years with road construction is the most responsible way to do it. We don't know yet. I
guess I don't want to rule anything out until people have really spent the time to review it.
Meger: I would say leave it on there too because it could be a potential vote getter with that
many people that walk and run and Rollerblade and what not. Even just seeing that word
trail on the referendum.
Huffman: You could trail right to the golf course. Carry...up on the bike.
Hoffman: ...but moving up through Saddlebrook next summer.
......"
Lash: Oh, when you said Powers that's what I thought you were talking about.
Hoffman: No, Powers south of Highway 5 where Lyman will go in both sides.
Lash: Because there's really a gaping hole there.
Berg: What about Lyman?
Hoffman: Lyman will have to...
Berg: So I can finally get to Chaska without fighting semi's. That would be nice.
Hoffman: Yeah, the trail's going to go onto Audubon... went through Lyman anddoWD- to .
Chaska. So we're almost to the...right to the front door of the new high school and then
Powers Blvd would go from Highway 5 south on both sides and Lyman would be a cross
piece and the county will upgrade that as a part of that.
Huffman: Isn't there a trail in Chaska coming up behind the new high school too? Isn't there
something down in that ditch? That's already built in there.
....."
26
JfII""". Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Hoffman: We love that trail.
Manders: It's excellent.
Huffman: Hasn't it got a little stream or something down there too. I've seen it from the
highway.
Manders: It's not paved but yeah, it's outstanding.
Roeser: It's like limestone isn't it, or something.
Manders: It's...stone.
Hoffman: As far as park development for Bandimere Park and Minnewashta West, is that the
figure that's going on there?
Lash: What about the elementary school?
"""'" Berg: That's budgeted in already, isn't it? Most of it.
Lash: All of it? Equipment and ballfields and tennis and everything.
Hoffman: Tennis is in but no playground equipment.
Lash: That gets spendy real fast.
Hoffman: We could spend $90,000.00.
Lash: How about ballfield lights anywhere? I mean we know that's close to $100,000.00 any
time we want to put that on. But that's more...
Ruegemer: I agree Jan.
Huffman: Is that a good idea? I mean is that a positive?
Hoffman: Absolutely.
Lash: Dave, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't a good idea.
""
Huffman: Yes ma'am. You had pearls before...
27
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
..."".
Hoffman: But again, we get up to the City Council and we're wishy washy, they're going to
send us right down...
Huffman: I mean you've got 4 or 5 specific items in terms of the major category. The catch
line it sounds like that night though is, these are our major goals. Now the task force may
deem trails a positive or negative but we can't decide that for them and is that your walk
away line? Is that our catch phrase that night?
Hoffman: See I would urge you not to argue with them at that meeting.
Huffman: I guess I'm out of my league here.
Hoffman: If you want to leave it to the task force to talk about ballfield lights, fine. Do that
and just bring up these 4 items and say, beyond that we want the task force to go ahead and
tackle these issues and we start this haggling back and forth and they're going to.
Lash: So under the categories, say we had park development. We could put ballfield lights.
We could Bandimere. We could put.
Hoffman: Do you want to?
-'
Lash: I don't know.
Berg: Well what do they want to hear?
Hoffman: They want to hear what we have to say.
Lash: Well we need to tell them there's a lot of big projects out there and we can't pay for
any of those things unless we go this way. And if I was them I would want to know, well
what kind of big projects are you talking here.
Berg: Right, and if we start getting nitty gritty about every, about lights and this and this,
they're going to say well maybe you don't need that, back to what you were saying before.
Maybe we don't need that. We don't want this session to revolve into that either.
Lash: I don't know if it's going to be too nitty gritty. It's just going to say, these are big
ticket items. We're not saying for sure right now that this is going to be in there. We just
want this task force to be able to research this and say, is there really. We perceive the need
to be there. Do they perceive that need and is it worth putting it in this package or should it
be down the road?
....,;
28
JII"""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Berg: Well let's get some specifics then so we have something in concrete for when we talk.
Lash: I think if we just had the 4 categories, that sounds pretty ambiguous. I think it would
be nice under the categories to at least have a few concrete things, and I think we do know
some of those concrete things.
Berg: So we've got park development. We have Bandimere and Minnewashta.
Hoffman: Minnewashta and Lake Ann lights and Lake Susan lights.
Huffman: Great, absolutely.
Berg: Playground equipment at the new school site. For the recreation site.
Lash: And is that going to be, is the rec site center all pretty much decked out the way we
want that or does there need to be more money put in there? ...How about City Center?
We've gone round and round about that over the years that we've wanted to acquire the extra
couple of acres if possible and to reconfigure that whole thing with new hockey and new
r- warming house and all of that. Is that something we want to put in there? It will never
happen if we don't have it in.
Berg: I missed the first part of what you said.
Lash: Listen up over there Fred. City Center.
Hoffman: City Center, we've all been confused over the years because of the future
expansion and acquisition of the land out in front of City Hall and moving the road to the
back. But there is going to be...that whole project's not going to be paid for out of one pot of
money so whether or not you can answer Mr. McGee's question and the voters questions on
do you want half a million dollars for the future City Center park expansion, probably not
going to tell you. So there's lots of time to put it on...
Huffman: And if we don't, this is a terrible way to put it but if we don't have to pay for it,
why should we bring it up.
Hoffman: Well if you've seen, we don't want to lose the opportunity to expand that site so
that land's only going to get more expensive but you could put that on as acquisition. You
could acquire that extra 2 1/2 acres. That would be very specific.
"
Berg: That would be fine.
29
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
...""
Hoffman: So that would be under land procurements.
Huffman: That was a great pearl.
Hoffman: Anything else in development? Hockey rinks. W arming houses. Park buildings.
Berg: What did we have on line at one point as a goal, 6 hockey rinks? Is that too high?
Wasn't it 5 or 6 and then we decided to go with 1 or 2 this year sort as trial balloons. See
how they're used.
Roeser: Over in Chan Hills.
Lash: That's just a figure skating. And the one up at North Lotus, that's just pleasure this
winter too isn't it and then the next year hockey?
Hoffman: Yep.
Berg: How big a ticket is that?
Hoffman: Under the lights, $40,000.00.
......"
Meger: How about a Rollerblade rink?
Lash: Did we get that in over at the elementary school?
Hoffman: $75,000.00 total. No, it's an extra $70,000.00 for concrete to put in two rinks.
Lash: Now at the elementary site the tennis and the hockey and all of that is already in?
Hoffman: Four tennis, lighted. Two hockey rinks. Two areas for hockey, lighted. We have
to provide the boards. And these are things that the task force, when you get down to that,
when you put something in somebody's neighborhood and start to liven up the capital
improvement program for the neighborhood parks system..J think we've got big ones. I don't
know that there's any missing there. Land procurements. We start with City Center and then
if you recall the map. We have Bluff Creek as one of our's. We have the Fox Woods. The
large piece of woods in southern Chanhassen. You had on there at one point the Halla
property. Now that's been, at least...
Lash: So could we just say that we're interested in x number of acres to be developed.
Specific site?
......;'
30
,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Hoffman: You need a specific site...curse of dwelling in the public sector, these people want
to know. You can't beat around the bush. Everybody wants to know. I've spoken personally
with most of the landowners who we're looking at and saying that the Park Commission is
considering future acquisition of a portion of your property and if people are not very careful
in that regard, we talk a lot about what their dreams are for their property and to quote Sever
Peterson. He says well, that piece of property is going to bring the ship in for my family and
I and if you're aboard that ship, I don't have a problem. So I mean, they're all out there.
They've all been approached and they're not going to be adverse to being approached by the
city either. Talked with a lot of folks of the land preservation trust recently. Both down at
the conference and then back here from the... There's another alternative to looking into a
professional easement, conservation easement. And so you pay for an easement. They get
the tax credits because it's a...easement. It's preserved forever in open space but they still
own the property. It's less expensive than other alternatives we look at so there's a lot of
things to take a look at. Some people have said we don't have a enough time to put on a
referendum in 1995 but I went to a session at the National, which was supposed to be on
some California referendums and legislation where they put a levy on for 15 years for land
acquisitions and they put another levy on for park maintenance for about that same time
period. Those people did not show up so at the last minute they called up Eden Prairie... they
r--- put on their land acquisition effort in 6 weeks. From the day they said let's do it to the day
they voted 6 weeks later. They had a 3to 1 vote to go ahead and buy those 4 pieces of
property in the city of Eden Prairie. So they had 6 weeks. We have at least 6 months.
Roeser: They have a really good promotional issue there though.
Hoffman: You have the same. Chanhassen, there's been enough talk about land development
in this city that you have the potential for the same emotional issue. You just have to...
Meger: Todd do you have, I don't know, a referendum file which would have some
information of some other referendums that have passed and just different information, even
about what is a referendum and how can they be done. Just even for myself more for
education because.
Hoffman: Yeah, you bet.
Manders: A couple of other preservation areas, I know we've talked about one in particular
being the wooded area around Lake Ann.
Hoffman: That's where we're at. It's a million and a half right there...
,.....
31
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
--"
Manders: And then the other one, I don't know if there's much in terms of acquisition
required but the wetlands by the school. That Opus area. I don't know what the requirements
are there. If there's anything.
Hoffman: We're presently in negotiation with the property owner there and what the eventual
tally will come out, if she would like to donate portions of that wetland portions for tax
credits and the rest would be purchased by the city.
Manders: The other areas would be the wetlands that the Lundgren development surrounds.
You know I don't know that all factors in and then there was some triangle tree areas off of
TH 41. Those are the only ones that I can think of.
Roeser: What about across from Bandimere? South of Bandimere Park. When you're going
on TH 101 to the south there where the pond is and all that wetland. Is that?
Hoffman: Currently it's at least planned to be at the front door of Tim Erhart's new home.
Roeser: Who's?
Hoffman: Tim Erhart came in. He sat in on quite a few .of the meetings on the update... The ....",
Frank Fox property just to the north of that, that's the woods. So the pond there is owned by
Tim Erhart. The rest of the property, approximately 1 00 acres right through here. It was
agricultural when he purchased it but he's now, he since has planted a tree farm... The tract of
land just north of there'is'FrankFoxwho'runsall the way from" Highway 101throughthe.,'i">i''\;
wetland area, back to an old maple forest which is slated for acquisition. I had a conversation
or potential acquisition. With him he said he's not adverse to that at all. Then you have 212
which cuts right down through the middle there and the State will be picking that up. The
city is presently going ahead with administering that RALF application which is the right-of-
way acquisition loan fund. Where the Met Council pays the property owner off for their
property. The city has to underwrite that loan and then when MnDot comes through with TH
212, they pay everybody back and the acquisition goes away. Everything's... Why that has
come about is because TH 212 has been mapped for so dam long that there's been a lot of
land owners out there that have held property for 20 years and they became so incensed with .
having to live underneath that designation that they just said, you need to give us some
opportunity for relief. If this is going to be mapped, and we want to sell our land, go ahead
and buy it from us. They couldn't do it directly so they started this RALF thing. So there's
going to be that, and then you have the wooded knoll to the west of there and he said, you
know my dream for that is to put some type of a residential subdivision unit there and then I
can have my summer home up here in Minnesota on that piece of property... So those are the
--'
32
,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
type of concepts you get from landowners. They certainly have ideas for their property as
well and then we talk to each individual owners about that, that's a long explanation...
Lash: And how many sites are there actually then would be possibilities? There's only like 2
or 3 isn't there? I mean for park, to develop an active park.
Hoffman: Yeah, we looked at the site north of Highway 5 and up to the Dolejsi property and
Mills Fleet Farm property. We looked at the...farm down south across from Lyman Blvd.
Lash: Where the new lift station is?
Hoffman: Thank you, Gayle Degler. And that piece of property. And then we're looking,
there's not much left... I thought there was a lot of com fields left and we wouldn't have to
worry about this for quite some time but that is certainly not true.
Lash: What about straight down Powers at Lyman? Right across Lyman.
Hoffman: I think that would be, in fact I caught wind that a developer is looking at that as a
,.... speculation site. If you go out there and look at it, if you extend that road across and create a
trailhead, if you see, the oak. It's kind oflikethe oak savannah that run through there. It's
the cows are grazing underneath the oak trees and if you put residential in, you can kiss those
oak trees good-bye but if you can do a picnic grounds underneath those oak trees. Bring in a
road directly south of Powers, you create a trail head for your Bluff Creek trail going south
and north and create somewhat' ofa'communityo'park'in that'location. .. Something akin .to the"".
Shakopee, you know oak picnic area just off of TH 169. That would be a designation, or
destination point for people to start on Bluff Creek.
Lash: But is there a potential for flat, active use too?
Hoffman: For the, if you go up the hill and the public works building sits there now. That
little pump house building.. You go over to the west, up towards the farm house and we
looked at that. You'd have to tier it. Something similar to Lake Ann to make it happen.
There's not a lot of flat land there. On the back side there is...walk over the hill and there's
still a lot of property back there and some of it is relatively flat. So there's plenty of
opportunities up here for us to take a look at.
Berg: Should that be on our list?
Hoffman: Yeah.
,...,
33
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
...""
Lash: That sounds like it'd be a nice choice.
Hoffman: The other piece which was on there and we haven't mentioned was the Camp
Tanadoona. So there will be some paring away at that point. You can't buy every single
piece of property itself but.
Huffman: But the point there could be, these are the 5 major pieces we've identified left in
the city and once they're gone, we will have no chance to acquire anything anywhere.
Hoffman: Yeah. We can do that.
Berg: When you see it on the map of the whole city, that becomes 5 real small pieces.
Hoffman: And as far as the golf course, it would simply be build new or acquire.
Lash: Okay. Anything else? Can we move
Hoffman: What do we want to do with the goal setting Jan?
Lash: I think we just did that. I consider that in our goals. The goal is for the task force to -"
study some of those. Do we have to get more?
Hoffman: The task force can accomplish your goals.
Lash: So should our goal be to have a task force to review all of these priorities and see
which are.
Hoffman: The City Council's going to ask you, well once that's done, what...rest of the year.
Lash: What's what?
Berg: Well we can have another meeting. This is such a high priority.
Huffman: I think he is exactly 100% right. If they want to twist and turn and say what else
is going to go on. Say at this point there is nothing else to go on. Management and the daily
activities and housekeeping continue monthly and weekly and daily the same they do for you.
There is nothing else for us and if they don't want to play with us on this level, I agree with
you sir. That's enough. We've done it. Thank you very much for your night. Let's go
home.
--'
34
~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Berg: Yeah, if they want to get any more specific than that, I don't know.
. Huffman: There's no reason to. I mean here it is. We're not voting on anything. They don't
have to vote on any issues at this point. This is reality and if they want to play with this,
that's fine. And if they don't, we'll.
Berg: This delivers a real clear message to them what our priorities are.
Lash: I think we have the right to expect a real clear message from them in that we don't
want to exert any more energy or time into this or have a task force if it's a dead issue before
it even gets going so I don't want to playa game here and put a bunch of time and work into
this and then come back and have them say, you know what. The time is just not right for a
referendum. We're just not going to do it.
Huffman: What is the election going to, I mean I'm asking for speculation here but the
election. 3 of them are up for vote. They've got people running against. I mean are they
going to do anything?
".-... Hoffman: This is the day after the election.
Huffman: Okay.
Hoffman: First thing they'll do is canvas the votes there under 1 and then they're going to sit
down and talk to you' folks. Remember...5:30 p.m. They scheduled it for that time and they
simply...change the election results...
Huffman: Todd do we need to come together even, I don't know...just prepare for a couple of
minutes so I mean. Are we going to see this ahead enough time so everybody can think so
we can proceed in not an illogical fashion. So if Jan has something, about acquisition, maybe
one person could take the role in something or, and give thoughts. But I mean make a logical
spearheaded effort as opposed to seeming a little scattershodit, or I don't know. Is that even
better? I mean you want to look good, you want to sound good and you want to walk the
right walk. Do we need to even be prepared to present this in a better' presentation. package
instead of saying, well we think we'd like to do this. We'd like to do this and maybe Jan
says, these are our goals. That we have come up with and sat with you know and she talks
about one and Jane talks about one, you know whoever. But really hammers them or do we
even need to do anything like that or is that just too?
~
35
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
.....",
Hoffman: No, 1 think it's a good idea. In fact if you want to have either your Chair and/or
designated people present the issues very clearly and concisely and then shut your mouth,
that's the best way to approach it.
Lash: Yeah, 1 think we can present it and then ask for questions.
Berg: I'd be willing to let Jim and Jan do that too as the Chair and Co-Chair.
Hoffman: Okay...
Lash: So that's on November 9th, correct? And then will our regular meeting be on the 22nd
then?
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: Okay, let's move on.
PROGRAM REPORTS:
A. SENIOR CENTER
B. SUMMER SOFfBALL
C. FALL SOFfBALL
D. HALWWEEN PARlY
...."t
Lemme: ...1 really don't have anything else to add to that. 1 just want to let you know what
programs are at the senior center, that's my job. If you have any questions, you certainly can
ask them otherwise we can go onto Jerry's reports...
Lash: Okay Jerry, how about the summer softball.
Ruegemer: As we wrap up our summer season now, we did increase 'our teams to 68 this
year. General comments through each league and comments that 1 collected in going through
the evaluations that were sent out. We did receive a fair amount from ,each of the ,leagues."
We do have a fair representation...and then spelled out specifically in the category here. Just
general comments. A lot of feedback coming back from the parking fees at Lake Ann Park
and that's not only on the softball evaluations but also on a lot of the picnic evaluations as
well, as you may have seen at the administrative packet. 1 know that we need to take a look
at that and that horse has been beat a few times around here but.
Hoffman: It's an annual review 1 think.
...",I
36
,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Ruegemer: Yes it will be coming back so we'll need to take a look at that again. Just other
general comments. We did make up our rain outs on the weekends this year, on Saturday
morning preferably. That did not work out...few rain outs this summer. We were going to
take the weekend on the 4th of July open...next year and just do it then. Another item that
we touched on last night was a lot of comments about lights at Lake Ann Park. That's
certainly a way that we can expand our leagues that we are getting to full capacity on with 3
out of 5 nights booked to capacity already on 16 teams. That's a way that we can go to 4
games a night per field if we have the lights to do that. So that's something that's certainly
important that we are getting feedback. It is, people are talking about it out there in the
leagues right now so... Their kids are growing up and finding other things to do and those
types of things. We did lose quite a few umpires this year so that's always a remaining
concern. Finding quality umpires and...to help us out in our leagues. One way that we're
going to increase that next year is certainly to, we're going to increase our fee per game. I
felt that we were relatively competitive with everybody else but I think what we need to do is
maybe take that one step farther. The Eden Prairie's...Minnetonka's...set the tone and that
doesn't help us being a neighboring community. It's certainly something we need to take a
look at so we will be paying umpires more next year. And as you see, just on the revenue
sheets, we did take in, for revenue, $26,520.00...
r
(There was a tape change during Jerry's presentation.)
Lash: Any questions for Jerry on that? Fall softball evaluation.
Ruegemer: Basically the same line. We were down this year from fall softball last year. We'"
had 15 teams which just talking to different people throughout the Twin City area, I think
everybody was down this year. I don't know why. People just had enough and I know
people's lives are busy these days but I don't have a logical explanation why it was down this
year. The fee was the same as last year so I think the teams that played up here had a good
time. They played more games this year. We had 10 games. Double headers so I think
everybody enjoyed that. So this year we did try to offer the co-rec and women's fall league...
again this year but had little or no interest again with that but we will continue to offer that...
The revenue reports are back there as well. We're losing $12.10...
Berg: Yeah, scratch the program. If we're not going to make money, scratch it.
Ruegemer: Anybody have any questions on fall softball?
Lash: Okay, let's move on to the Halloween party.
~
37
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
...."
Ruegemer: Our annual Halloween party is coming up Monday, October 31 st over at
Chanhassen Elementary school. At 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. We will be setting up around 3:00 p.m.
with targeting being through with all those types of things and try to get ready for our big
night here so we're going to be working around the after school program this year, which we
didn't have to contend with last year but in conversations with both the instructor of that
program and also at the community education level, there's flexibility there and we can work
around it and compliment each other that night so we will proceed as planned on that and we
will be in there sooner than 5:30-6:00 during that nighLWe'll be there at 3:00 for set up.
Lash: And do you still need more volunteers?
Ruegemer: Yes we do Jan.
Lash: Did you check the high school?
Ruegemer: In fact I left a phone message with Jean Strauss today. She's our youth services
coordinator for the school district so she's real in tune with volunteer opportunities that the
kids might need to complete for their community service hours.
Berg: Not so much that any more but isn't the Honor Society also been involved in the past, ..."",
or is that Easter?
Ruegemer: It's Easter and they have a little bit in the past with the Halloween party but it's
tougher at the beginning of the year, from what I understand. They aren't in place yet. . ,', .."".
Berg: That's right, they aren't. You're right.
Lash: What about, it's too late probably to try this for this year but I was kind of wondering
like, is there a drama club or something like that at the high school?
Berg: No.
Lash: I just thought it would be something that kids would-get more into you know dressing
up in costumes and being characters. I would think they would think that would be kind of
fun. Are there any commissioners who are highly motivated to volunteer for this event?
Ruegemer: We have costumes so if anybody would like to.
Lemme: You don't have to dress in a costume to help...serving refreshments as well.
38
...""
,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Ruegemer: Right. Registration table.
Lash: ...if anyone is interested, why don't you notify Jerry. It doesn't sound like anybody is.
Okay, thanks Jerry. We'll move on to the administrative presentations.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTA nONS:
A. WINTER NEWSLElTER CHANGES.
Lemme: Just another little update to let you know that we're doing things a little bit
differently. You have made comments in the past in regards to how you think the newsletter
looks and those kinds of things so I'm always looking for more ideas. New ideas. If you see
other newsletters from other cities or different places, bring them in to me. We're not
opposed to stealing ideas if they've got good ones. And also with pictures. If you're out at
an event that's a Park and Rec event and you, or if you're out on your bike and you bring
your camera and you're on some Chanhassen trail, take some photos and we'll reimburse you
or whatever for the pictures as well. So just wanted to let you know what's going on with the
newsletter.
"......
Lash: Any comments or questions? Okay, thanks Dawn.
B. NEIGHBORHOOD BALLFIELD AND WEEKEND RESERV A nON POLICY.
Ruegemer: Thank you. ...'W e..discussed"this item at our last September meeting. The,.Parkand"",
Rec Commission did direct me to develop that policy with input that we did have that night.
I did do that and I take your feedback...policy statement here. Do you want me to read those
real quick?
Berg: No. We can read them.
Ruegemer: Everybody's had a chance to read them? Okay. I'll take any comments or
questions at this time. If everybody's fine with that, we do need a motion.
Huffman: A much gentler way of saying if the grass at the new fields is established at that
time...Carver Beach and Rice Marsh Lake as opposed to me saying, shoot them. A much
gentler way of saying that.
Lash: Is this something that you think is going to fill your needs request for next year?
I"'"
39
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
--'
Ruegemer: I think it certainly will make that a lot clearer. That's something that we certainly
can incorporate it into like the picnic. I have a picnic information sheet that I send out with
every reservation so it's certainly something that can be incorporated into that literature about
the ballfields and just clear up any types of questions.
Lash: No, I guess what I was meaning by that was, do you think that most everyone will
have the opportunity to play who wants to play with these limitations?
Ruegemer: I think the majority of the use is going to be at Lake Ann in the way that we do
have more fields out there. You know if you'd like to review this again next year, we can
certainly do that but I think I'm confident that this will take care of our needs for the near
future.
Lash: Do you think that the third item, the third bullet here addresses clearly enough for
people if they call and say we'd like to schedule practices one night a week at some
neighborhood park, I can't even think of one. Pheasant Hills or something. Say that's done.
Will you be able to say I'm sorry , we don't schedule things and that's our policy? Does this
address that clearly enough for people?
Ruegemer: This'doesn't address that specifically but if you'd like, I know we had talked
about trying to specify I guess what location they wanted to do that at the last meeting.
...."
Lash: Well I know with the request, we had the request from the soccer club to use.
Ruegemer: Minnewashta Heights.
Lash: Yeah, that one and.
Hoffman: CAA wanted Sunset and Curry.
Lash: Right, so those requests are going to be coming in. Are we.
Ruegemer: I know we had talked about, do we want to define neighborhood park or not.
That's great if you want to get into the specific establishing.
Hoffman: That's your current policy.
Lash: That is the current policy. That we don't schedule organized sports in neighborhood
parks.
40
......"
,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Hoffman: Absolutely, except Carver Beach and Rice Marsh Lake and Meadow Green.
Roeser: And we're hoping to be done with that in 2 years.
Hoffman: So I guess you could preface this, I don't think the policy statement it can be
written... neighborhood parks shall not schedule organized sporting activities during the soccer
season with the exception of those...
Lash: Okay. And the elimination of just the two. Didn't we consider leaving it.
Berg: I'd move that we accept staff's recommendation regarding the ballfield reservation
policy as stated.
Manders: Second.
Berg moved, Mande~ seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission adopt the following
ballfield reselVation policy:
"""' 1. Lake Ann Park may be scheduled for practices and games by non-profit organizations who
provide services to youth under 18 years of age on weekends on Fields Nos. 1, 2, 5 and 6
depending upon availability. Lake Ann Field Nos. 3 and 4 will not be scheduled and will
be kept available for park users and picnickers.
2. Lake Susan Park may be scheduled by non-profit organizations who provide services to
youth under 18 years for practices and games on weekends but not between the hours of
12:00 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. These blocked out times were established in order to serve the
requests and needs of our scheduled picnics and general use of the park.
3. Looking at scheduled activities in neighborhood parks, it is staff's recommendation that
until the new Chanhassen Recreation Center outdoor facilities are complete, that the Park
and Recreation Commission allow the use of scheduled games and practices in the
neighborhood parks of Carver Beach Park and Rice Marsh Lake Park. the Park and
Recreation Commission will review the availability of ' the new-recreation center's fields
during early spring of 1996 and make the decision at that time to allow or discontinue the
use of these two neighborhood parks for scheduled activities. If the grass at the new field
is established enough at that time, eliminate use at Carver Beach and Rice Marsh Lake
Parks.
All voted in favor and the motion camed unanimously.
"'"
41
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25. 1994
-"
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTA nONS:
Berg: I had a question. I was down at Rochester this weekend. and feeding the geese at
Silver Lake and I noticed the park across the street. I don't know what you know about
Rochester parks but it was the park adopted by the Sertoma Club. What do you know about
that and is that something that we'd be interested in pursuing at least investigating?
Hoffman: You bet. An intern. it's been probably two summers ago. prepared a variety of
documents on adopt a park program. The partnership program with the City of Chanhassen
so those remain in a file in my office...My present thought that we get away from an adopt a
park and turn it into a partners in parks concept. Say you auction off like a Lake Ann Park
to one exclusive club. Well there's... there's a lot of things that could be done at Lake Ann
Park that different organizations could become a partner in...city landscape businesses actually
came in and maintained landscapes and landscaping flowering beds. that type of thing in a
variety of city parks because it was good for their business. So we need to refine this thing.
You know at one point I was almost ready to put it out there and present it to the Park
Commission but I didn't want it to be premature. So I'm still flushing out all of the concepts.
All of the partnerships that could be formed and then make no mistake about it. it's a ton of
administrative work to organize that thing and to then form the partnerships with our park
. maintenance division and park maintenance that has,justcome in now to park administration. ....."
Prior to that. when you start saying well. we're going to be adding flowers beds. we're going
to be doing this and park maintenance starts going. well wait a minute here. We've heard this
kind of stuff before. Are you sure you're going to do that so the program has to be well
thought out and I would say within the next 2 years that program will be on it's way and the
Park Commission will play a key role in that. It can be a budget reducer but it can be a cost
as well with the initial set up. Many communities do it. Adopt a roadway. Adopt a
boulevard. Adopt a green space. Mankato Park Property does the same thing. In the bigger
cities. and just really park departments...in Chanhassen we're a little bit different. We've got a
lot of things to do in our parks and our parks are a lot newer. Our community's a lot newer
so there's not the decay that you see in a lot of...Excellent program. We just need to let it
fully develop and mature and the file is getting much thicker with all the information I've
received.
Manders: I just wanted to comment on the opportunity that I had to attend the National
Congress exhibit hall. There were several things there but two that kind of caught my eye.
One being a golf driving arrangement that had this netting and it was like a driving range
type of set up that. I don't know what it went for. It seemed to me. what was it, $30,000.00.
But beyond that. I ended up hitting a couple of good balls so that's why I liked it.
Hoffman: You hit it into the net and it tells you how far you drove it?
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Manders: Yeah, there was kind of a radar detector thing that projected or estimated distance
so.
Huffman: A lot of people in that line.
Manders: I had the longest drive, so that's why. No.
Lash: Just wanted everybody to know.
Manders: That was fun. And then the other thing was a play structure, and I apologize for
not bringing the brochure that they gave me but it was the koala one with the tubes and the
ball thing. Very colorful. I don't know if that was necessarily a product of Australia so it
would be an arm and a leg to get a hold of one of those but I thought that was a real nice set
up I thought. Very different structure. It's hard to explain so I won't even try.
Hoffman: ...it had three little bubbles all connected by tubes...
Meger: I guess I too would like to comment on the opportunity to attend the National
.",-.. Congress and would like to thank staff and the city for allowing me that opportunity. I was
able to sit in on a couple of sessions as well as go to the exhibit hall. Some very interesting
sessions that I attended as far as commissioners and how to get them to work together and
commission board members and differences between cities as far as a group like our's that is
more of an appointed or selected group versus an elected group of Park and Rec
Commissioners. There was" a lot of interesting conversation' on how those boards do different.
and operate. I thought the one, I don't know if you purchased the tapes of either of those but
one thing that I thought was real interesting that I thought would be something that we could
work on in the future or a good intern project, was setting out something a little bit more
detailed as new commissioners come on. A packet introducing them to the commission. I
think when I first came on I did a lot of good materials but they really had some good ideas
about bringing on a new commissioner and kind of bringing them up to date and getting them
to be able to be jump right in and so on. And I went to some other things that were useful
for me as far as my other job. I went to a session on an employee incentive programs which
was very interesting so. Saw some people that I hadn't-seen since college so it was fun too,.-.,
Lemme: Do you have the papers still...
,......
Meger: Yeah, they had 3 major topics in that. One was using a money maker type venture,
like a golf course. This was a rec center where the incentive was that the employees would
actually give up a percentage of their income, 5%, 10% or whatever they deemed appropriate
and they would not be paid that amount throughout the year but they would have particular
43
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
-'"
goals in mind that if attained, they would certainly get that 5% or 1 0% back but they also had
the opportunity to attain much more than that. So in the example that they used, one
individual gave about $1,500.00 up as an incentive and ended up at the end of the year
getting a check for about $4,500.00 so that was one example. Another example was more,
not monetary but more, well it ended up somewhat being monetary but where staff members
had little cards that were kind of, way to go cards that if somebody did something that they
thought was unique or they did a good job at, they could give them a card and it was worth a
certain amount of points and then at the end of the year they would have a party and they
could purchase different things, depending on how many points they had obtained. The other
was more one definitely tied to performance and they went through performance appraisals
and how to tie it directly back to employee's salary, which was very helpful for me too so.
Lash: I could see parking permits at Lake Ann as being sort of an employee incentive.
Reach your goal so you get a parking permit for the next year. Get in free.
Hoffman: Never happen. No free...
Lash: Then we'll have to make sure we keep them.
Hoffman: Dawn, do you want to comment on your...parking permits at Lake Ann Park for ....."
city employees. Pass?
Lemme: I'll pass.
Lash: Anyone else have commission presentations? I had one quick one. It really isn't Park
and Rec I don't think, although it does affect Bandimere somewhat in that personally I, in the
last week experienced a great deal of frustration with the fact that the compost site at
Bandimere has been closed down already. Just when we reached the peak of.
Hoffman: I think we re-opened it.
Lash: They did? Great. Now that we already dumped our leaves somewhere.
Roeser: Out by the gate.
Hoffman: Not operated by our department but they did close it and too many requests so
they re-opened it.
Berg: When was it open?
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,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
Ruegemer: I think it was a Saturday.
Lash: I think it's generally just open Saturday. Maybe part of the day on Sunday...! guess I
was frustrated because it opened in the spring and it's open all summer and then when all the
leaves fall, it was closed.
Roeser: I spent 3 hours down there dumping bags one night. Ever tell you the first time
Lucy, you know Lucy don't you? The first time she was down there, they didn't have the
dumpster there so there were bags allover the place and they brought it in late that afternoon.
So Lucy come over and she said we've got to unload these things into the dumpster. So we
went down there. We worked for about 2 hours. It was the dirtiest job I have ever done in
my life and L.so we worked for at least 2 hours dumping these bags and stink. You wouldn't
believe it. It's just horrible stuff.
Lemme: I think Ron would be a good candidate to run it the next time.
Roeser: And then we had to go back the next morning, Sunday morning. I said Lucy, I've
got to quit. This is it. I can't do this anymore and we were just covered with mud so we
,...... went back on Sunday morning and it had dried out a little bit more and so we finished up the
job.' We dumped all these things into this dumb dumpster. I never did get paid for that. She
did.
Lash: I guess I'm really feeling with the tree preservation board and the big push that the city
is putting forward to plant trees 'and to make residents plant trees and all that, we need."
somehow and I know it's not for us but it could be passed onto the Tree Board that we need
to provide some place for brush and leaves for all these trees that we're trying to get people
to plant. And I know there are most of the homes have 1 or 2 little trees with 6 leaves on
each but there are a few homes that have a considerable amount of leaves, mine being one of
them. And people, we need to provide that for people. Otherwise we're asking for abuse.
I""""'"
Hoffman: We're going...all staff members spent the better part of 4 days down there so we're
still catching up on the day today responsibilities but the investment of time and money is
well worth the inspiration received. The materials and context, etc, etc. One thing I took
away was that we in the profession of Park and Recreation, you in your individual
professions, spend a lot of time trying to figure what everybody else is doing so we can be
like one another. It's especially true with city government. We always want to know, what's
the other cities doing and something that clearly came across was that if you want to be a
leader, don't do that. Don't even pick up the phone. Just do what's right for you and
Chanhassen's been noted for that in a lot of different instances with wetland preservations and
water. The parks and open spaces that we have and are attempting to preserve so as we
45
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
--'
launch into this new era of parks and open space acquisition, I just would like to let the
commissioners know to keep that in mind. We don't have to do what everybody else is
doing. We don't even have to go the traditional way. We simply do what we think is right
and what you think is right for the city of Chanhassen. The other thing, I did peruse in the
old exhibit hall on a couple of occasions and should let the commission know that I spent
some of your 1995 budgeted money on a 50% off deal, factory direct from these...systems so
you have the money budgeted for a piece of play equipment for Rice Marsh Lake Park. The
one behind...so they had a $6,000.00 piece of equipment on the show floor. They didn't want
to take it back to...Pennsylvania so they sold it us for $2,000.00.
Lash: So what is it?
Hoffman: It's a three platform structure with a roof on it and some of your first roof
structures in the city. It has some entrance and exits, spiral climbing and that...tube slide
with...so $6,000.00, 50%. Can't beat it.
Lash: Sounds good. Okay, any other presentations here?
Hoffman: Oh and then as far as...in the same vein...! let him know that they did not meet
their specifications for 5 week delivery time. In fact they're closer to 8 now so...
.....",
Berg: This is the group that we all said it but Jan laid it out, clearly how this was it. Okay.
Huffman: Was there any penalty fee? I. was out of town that meeting. Was there any.,
penalty fee or anything.
Lash: No future orders.
Huffman: Okay, we're done.
Hoffman: That's what I told the resident today who called and asked where their play
structurewas:lsaiditwas supposed to be here but it's not. He said is there a penalty clause
for not meeting the specification. I said well...
Lash: I think we made that very clear, did we not?
Berg: Yes we did.
-'
46
JIi""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Lash: Okay, can I have a motion to approve the Minutes from August 9th. Or are there any
additions or deletions?
Manders moved, Huffman seconded to approve the Minutes of the Pam. and Recreation
Commission meeting dated August 9, 1994 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion
canied.
Meger moved, Roeser seconded to approve the Minutes of the Pam. and Recreation
Commission meeting dated September 27, 1994 as presented. All voted in favor and the
motion canied.
Lash: And Administrative Section, I believe that was pretty well we covered everything in
there. Were there any questions or comments on any of that? Okay, is there a motion to
adjourn?
Manders moved, Meger seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
II"" canied. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
"""
47