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PRC 1994 12 19 I""" CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 13, 1994 Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 6:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Manders, Ron Roeser, Jim Andrews, Dave Huffman, Jan Lash and Jane Meger MEMBERS ABSENT: Fred Berg STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director~ Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor~ and Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. IDENTIFICATION OF POTENTIAL PARK. OPEN SPACE AND TRAIL ACOUISmON AND DEVELOPMENT REFERENDUM ITEMS. JIll"" Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Andrews: Thank you Todd. Obviously there are other cities and other groups that have studied this very same issue and they seem to be making, I think good recommendations. I appreciate the fact that you were able to bring this material to us. Hoffman: Yeah, the workbook was very concise and it's just what we're looking for. Andrews: Perfect. It seems to me what they're recommending is that we would set out sort of our wish list with dollar estimates and a list and then at that point we'd start to bring the public in to make comment or be involved, would you agree with that? That that's what the concept is. Hoffman: And to keep it pretty loose I think because again the minute you bring in the public and say here's our wish list, what do you think. The Park and Recreation Commission is also here to ask the question, what is important to you. We don't have to develop this list in the month of January. We can have that public meeting if you so choose and hear comment and then forward a list to the City Council in February. Lash: ... with the projections, is that going to be a 15 year increase. Is that what that means..., or how many years would this. ,...., Hoffman: Correct. You have 15 years average. 15 year issue. 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 -" Lash: So what's the, if you look in the $100,000.00 category and you go down to where it says...what does that mean? Hoffman: Tax capacity. Lash: Okay. So then if you have to go below that to see what the individual increases would be for the different amounts? Hoffman: Correct. Yeah, the tax capacity of the first $172,000.00 is based at 1%. Anything above that is based on 2% and then so the tax capacity was determined. Andrews: I guess I'm encouraged that the amount of dollars, tax dollars necessary to fund like a $5 million project are less than I thought they would be. I thought it would be substantially higher. Lash: I'm encouraged by that too, although I'm discouraged by the number of comments I've heard recently by people who have received their tax statements. Andrews: And Minnetonka's just a matter of a month or two away from going back for another construction bond referendum so, and it sounds as though Chaska is also facing a near term crisis term so we know those are both probably going to come back again too. .....,I' Hoffman: I relayed some news to Jim this afternoon in a phone conversation. I spoke with the Director of the City of Lakeville and they started this process, same thing 3 years ago. Just muddling through some thoughts. Some visions about what they would like to do in the city as far as park preservation and trail expansion, that type of thing, so they started with about a 30 member task force 2 1/2 years ago and that whittled down to 8 or 10 members. By the time they were ready to put the thing forward, and this was in about JanuaIy'of this past year, and then Rosemount came in with their $70 million school bond referendum and put it on the table and 2 months later took a vote on it. So it really took the wind out of a year and a half long effort of this park task force but they said we have no other choice then to put it forward so they held it in June of ~is year for $3.65 million so they came after the $70 million issue and they passed it by 150 votes. So when I asked Steve Beshod, you know what else is going on. He said he's just busy trying to cut deals on land acquisition. When we spoke about dollar prices, they're more in the range of $5,000.00 to $12,000.00 p~r .acre so they're getting a heck of a lot more bang for their buck. , W e w~uld. need ~6 to $8 mIllIon to do the same things that they're doing today because they re deal10g 10 a shg~tly more rural setting. It's all outside of the MUSA but they're fortunate enough to be b~Y1Og ev~n . shoreland for $12000.00 to $15,000.00 an acre. So when we relayed our 1OformatIOn, he SaId the first place I'm' going is the City Manager's office to tell him how good a deal this is and ....;' 2 ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 thanks for calling. So there's still hope. Eden Prairie did the same thing. Big school referendum came in. Took the wind out of their sails and they still went ahead with it and did it. Again, we need to paint the picture that school bonds are $15 million crack. We're asking for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 million dollars to make some things happen. Schools are an important part of our future but parks and preservation of open space are too so. Andrews: They serve everybody's needs. And my feeling is we have no choice. We must do this. I mean I think even if it gets voted down, we must come to the people and say this is something we have to do now or the opportunity is lost. Hoffman: You should be aware also that the City Council spoke specifically about the budgeted item for the special referendum, if it was to be held in 1995. $21,000.00 was included in the 1995 budget under election if this were to take place. That was one of the items put on the chopping block to balance the budget to have a zero percent net increase. So along with $76,000.00 of other cuts, plus or minus, they identified that $21,000.00 as a potential cut in '95, pushing it off to '96 when the Presidential election would be held and thus it would not be an added cost for the election. However Colleen Dockendorf and Councilman Mason and others spoke highly of the meeting which they held with you and ,.... they stood firm in their commitment with the Park and Recreation Commission to go ahead and back you if you propose this in 1995. Lash: I don't know that we can wait until '96. Andrews: We can't. Roeser: I don't think so. Manders: That's my question was the comment that, in the materials. In your discussion with the City Manager regarding getting in line. If you're not the first one, line up. And maybe you discussed this a little bit but what are some of those other things that are coming to the front? Hoffman: The senior housing project, just down the road on Kerber Boulevard will be $4 to $5 million. We just looked at one outside, there's a diagram of Powers Boulevard upgrade so that is being upgraded. Road projects are a large portion of them. The frontage road which will go in front of the school recreation site. The recreation site itself, we'll be bonding for $2 1/2 million dollars for in both '95 and potentially some in '96 so we have approximately a $10 million cap on an annual basis of a bonding limit for the city so you approach it. ,.... Manders: Those aren't necessarily voted on? That's just... 3 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 -...till Hoffman: No. Manders: Process. Hoffman: Process. General obligation bonds. Lash: So why would there be a conflict? I don't understand. Hoffman: Well we would be, as you add all those millions up in bonding, you approach that $10 million and we have an annual limit of approximately $10 million in bonding authority that we can go ahead off. Andrews: Who sets that limit? Or is that some city ordinance or? Hoffman: No. Andrews: I mean I guess I see no reason why a government can't choose to raise revenue. Lash: If you put something to the voters and they approve to fund something. -' Manders: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Lash: Then you know you have the money so. Hoffman: We have bonding limits mandated by the State. Our credit rating is based on those and you need, if you require more information in that regard so I'll have Don Ashworth... Andrews: I don't think it affects our decision. We're not going to wait (or him. Manders: I guess that was kind of leading into my next question which was you know your thought in terms of timing. To me it seems like we should go forward with this with the utmost urgency instead of attempting to time this because you're never going to time it right. Instead of going for a year, two years down the road and you're going to have all of these different situations taking the wind out of your sails so you just kind of take control of your own ship and. Lash: Well if we wait 2 years down the road, we wouldn't need to do it. There won't be any property left. ....." 4 I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Manders: That too. Andrews: Todd, do we need to set some sort of a list of items? I mean at this point, is that what you're thinking the next step is or is the next step to get a public hearing? I guess I feel to have a public hearing without some specifics is going to be of little value. as far as creating any support. Huffman: Can we set up the criteria that we'd like input on five specific areas that we had mentioned on acquisition. What would you like to see acquired in the city? What would you like to see built in the city? What would you like to see Bandimere? Are there improvements? I mean give very specific criteria, not defining what we would like to see but defining the areas that we have stated, and the City Council basically agreed to, as areas of improvement. Would you like to see a Fred Berg Golf Course, or Memorial Golf Course? Would you like to see those things? Well, if he doesn't vote for it, we can take care of that too. But is that what you're saying Jim? Instead of just sort of opening it up, helping to define what we have already decided. Lash: I think we have to set up some guidelines for, otherwise we're going to have residents """ coming in saying well yeah, I want Power Hill done and. Manders: A lot of special interests. Lash: Yeah, it's going to be a lot of things they want just in their own neighborhood parks and I personally do not think that's what this is intended for. I think it's more of a community effort where it gets more from community parks, open spaces, things that will benefit the entire community, not individual neighborhood parks. And I'm afraid if we don't have it somewhat defined, that's what we'll be getting. People who want a new backstop at their neighborhood park. Manders: That comment taken in reading through some of the materials was, it kind of goes against the grain of that. Just saying that it really is an open discussion to bring in a lot of ideas to try and bring the general population over to your side and it's an education process. They don't have the luxury of maybe seeing things that we already see so, it isn't as if we want to cut them off. I think it's going to be a continual education. Meger: Yeah, I'm not so sure we don't want to let them talk about some of the little projects as w.ell because then we can talk about what we have budgeted and that jf we do need to acqUIre some land, there isn't any money left for those smaller projects. Yet if we can pass a referendum, then we can use some of our budgeted dollars for some of those smaller projects. """ 5 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13. 1994 J Huffman: Start up the discussion and let everybody see that there are a lot of needs. It's not just your neighborhood backstop. It's their neighborhood backstop. It's their's and their's and their's. Roeser: But that kind of thing can bog down the meeting through. What Jan is talking about. You know if they're here to talk about developing little neighborhood parks. that really is not what we're here to talk about. Lash: And I wouldn't want to get that specific. If we wanted to...a portion of the referendum and say. x number of dollars will go for upgrading neighborhood parks. they can do that but I don't want to have just the people who get themselves organized and come up here and say we want to have a little sliding hill or we want a warming house. the ones who will get addressed because there are lots of neighborhood parks out there with people who want to have things done and just because they don't come to the meeting doesn't mean they don't want their project done. Roeser: This has got to be bigger than that. It's got to be bigger than putting a slide in the neighborhood park. And whether we have to have definite ideas but we certainly should have something. ...,,;I Huffman: But how do you make it bigger? I guess I'm starting to go with the other view is. how do you make them see that. I see my neighborhood park. I don't see Minnewashta Park out there. We see it because we're on this commission but how do I tie that in as a community member in Chanhassen and maybe I do need to see somebody over there. I need to see somebody else and I understand the bogging down but the idea of seeing a greater need and bringing everybody's awareness above just my little park up here. Well you're right. You do need that. Let's put that up here. Okay. you need that. Now you have a giant list of things that we need. Well how do we all get our needs? How do we all come out of this as a win-win? Well. we come to you as a collective and say here is a bond issue and a referendum. Our goal is to fulfill your needs but you have to understand that the needs are more than just your neighborhood park. I understand you get bogged down but I. Lash: That may be a better way of generating support. Hoffman: You bet. Absolutely. You're hitting on a new avenue which we've not discusse~ and that if you can gain support of a lot of neighborhoods for $400.000.00 to $5?0.000.00 m neighborhood park improvements. that's a big shot in the arm to your annual. capItal . improvement budget. There's been a lot of people in here over the years crymg for then piece of the action as far as neighborhood parks. Well. $300.000.00 to $400.000.00 can buy ...,,;I 6 ",...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 a lot of play equipment and a lot of this and a lot of that to kind of flush out these neighborhood parks. Andrews: I am concerned about taking the macro approach. Or the micro approach rather. I think our needs that we originally talked about to consider a referendum require large dollars for large projects and I agree with what Jan said, that you need to paint with broad strokes here. My personal preference is that we identify at least several of these big ticket items to be specifically discussed. Now if people want to add to that, that's fine. I think we ought to invite that. But I think to just say, let's come on in and talk about a referendum for various park needs I think is going to be so open ended and so difficult to focus that I think it will be tough for us to take action. I think it will be tough to create a perception of the public that we have needs for some of these big projects that we really have a need for and I think as far as like Bandimere or Bluff Creek or the thing, was it the Jackson property? Was that the name of the gentleman who owns that treed area? Hoffman: No, Frank Fox. ,..... Andrews: Fox, pardon me. The Fox property. And we have our organizations like the Chanhassen Athletic Association. Soccer leagues. Baseball leagues. Softball leagues. Those people if they were to be involved in the discussion would make it very clear that we have large needs that either can't be met now or won't be met in the future. Lash: The other thing that I think by having some definition here, we already had a little PR problem earlier in the paper making it look like we didn't have direction and we didn't know what we were doing. We're just asking for money sort of carte blanche and I think if we have some specific items listed as perceived needs by the commission the direction that we want to go but that we're also open to hearing public input which is the whole point here and that will get us some support and if that's what we need to do, you know to have a little piece of this referendum be for neighborhood park upgrades, that's okay. If people want to spend the money on that, that's fine with me. That may be the want to generate enough support out there to make it fly by everybody feeling like they're getting their little piece of pie. But I think that we need to have as the overall guidelines, these are the big ticket items and we have, this is why we think we need Bandimere and why we need this, this, this and this and we're open to whatever anyone else has to say. Meger: Yeah. And then I think we need to be prepared to be bogged down and listen to what everyone has to say. ",...., Lash: Maybe it may just need to be one meeting separate so that if we feel like we've got a big agenda to chop through afterwards. 7 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ....."" Huffman: I'm still nervous about that approach because I still can see the homeowners from the snowmobile issue. That those people at this point are not on our side on anything we try to do. And if we come to those same people once again and we say by the way, now we want you to come and check off a, b, c and d. Don't bother us. Maybe at a separate issue at a separate time but give us the money again. They have not been heard. If they've been denied once, they've been denied twice. Lash: How are they being denied?.. Huffman: Well my understanding was you just said have a separate meeting or a separate idea or separate thought. Lash: No, separate... Huffman: Well yeah but I mean very strict guidelines but. Lash: ...say this is the direction we're going and we're open to hearing. Come to the meeting. Hear what we have to say. We want to hear what you have to say and if they've got some different items on their own personal agendas that we don't have on our's, we're open to seeing if we can fit that in and how we can fit it in and if it means a separate little ....." pot of money within the referendum for neighborhood upgrades, then we're open to that. Huffman: I guess what I'm also worried about too is that we're sitting here saying getting bogged down. We're all excited. We're all moving forward. If we literally say that's neat. That's a great idea. Great. Now okay, you've got your stuff. Now here's the 5 things that we want to do and that, and the presentation of this will be even more important than the content. And this is making me nervous because we're running fast but this is the one opportunity and how many times in just in my short period up here of people sitting here going, now when are you going to put that park in and when will I have my site. I mean that's the frustration and the frustration comes back in, you know they've said and they've said and they've said. Well, they don't want to hear it. That concerns me a lot because two of these things got voted down by 4 and 8. It's also the wording has to be very careful but I think the presentation that we do this really needs to be well thought out and well choreographed, not unlike Jim and you did with the City Council. I mean it was well thought out. It was well put together. Everybody did a, I mean it was well done and I know I'm harping on this a little hard but. Andrews: Well I think we've got opposite viewpoints because I'm very concerned about I guess, not ignoring the need for the neighborhood parks but if we deal with that need as too much a part of this referendum, that we'll lose site of the big ticket items. I mean I just ..."" 8 ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 jotted down some things here and I have no way to justify these figures but I got to $5 million real quick. I mean a million dollars for Bandimere. Bluff Creek I'm sure would be a million bucks by the time you trailed that, parked it and everything else would be huge dollars. The Fox property I'm sure would be a million bucks by the time you bought it and improved it. I put a half a million dollars for Lake Minnewashta to improve that park and get it done. Half a million in trails. Half a million in park upgrades and another half million into the general reserve. I mean just to cover, kind of replenish what we spent out at Lake Ann. Huffman: That's great. My taxes went up $500.00 this year. I don't get anything in my park. Andrews: No, I didn't say that. Huffman: No, I mean that's. Andrews: That's not what that says. There's a $500,000.00 for upgrades there. That's more than we've spent in 4 years. We could do a lot of stuff for that. ,..... Huffman: To me, boy that needs to be presented even harder because I'm going to be honest, the Minnewashta deal, if I'm a resident, means nothing to me. Andrews: Maybe we go through and identify specifically what happens to where as part of that. I mean this goes into this park. This is going into this park. This is going to that park. Huffman: I would like to do that. Lash: But we have no way of doing that until we have public input too. I mean if we have 3 requests, it could be small items but what seems important to them but financially for us wouldn't be that much. Or we could end up with 50 or 100 different requests for things and it could be very expensive. But we have no idea right now. We'd be totally shooting in the dark to even try and guess what kind of response we're going to get. Manders: I think to me both of you are on the right track. We need to combine both thoughts I think. Huffman: We're just on different trussels. Manders: No, I agree with Jim that we need to layout some kind of an outline of these key issues but in that same vein we can't be saying this is all we're willing to look at because I""" 9 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 --" we're not the ones. We're trying to satisfy the people that are going to vote for this. If they want something more, maybe it costs more and if we think we can get it passed, maybe it isn't $5 million. Maybe it's $7 million. So you could do the additional things. So to me I think it's a combination of both. Lash: I think we're agreeing. I just don't think that we... Roeser: No, we're agreeing. We're agreeing but I don't think necessarily, you know I feel like Jim. I think this is a bigger project than neighborhood project. I just feel that what we're talking, what we should be talking about is acquiring park property right now because the whole concept here is that we're going to run out of land all of a sudden and I don't think that, certainly it's fine to deal with the neighborhood parks but the primary issue with the referendum should be the acquisition of substantial land. Huffman: See my concern though is that we are defining, and that is our job as I understand it, to define the referendum. The reality and the perception comes from the voters. Now we come and we say, we're about to lose parkland in Chanhassen. Where? Well we've got this beautiful Bluff Creek trail corridor that if we lose we'll never see. Well I've been here 10 years and I never knew we had it. The perception from their perspective is if they don't know if it's there, they don't know it's gone. ......" Roeser: I guess I can't feel that way. Huffman: I'm with you. I'm with you. You and I can't but I stand here talking to other people, they don't care. Lash: They're looking at their tax statement. Huffman: I got a 22% tax increase and now you're going to come back to me and hammer me about some...idea of lost land? Now I believe. I'm a believer and I agree. I think this needs to be presented in a very specific, how will you lose if you don't. The big woods issue in Eden Prairie is my prime example. Manders: They were very specific. Huffman: Very specific. If you lose this, it will be gone forever. Did you know that? It will be gone. The big woods are gone. We need a trail system. Andrews: I agree with what you're saying Dave that really education is the key to the big ticket items because right now nobody in this city has little Johnny running up to play 10 --' ,.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 baseball at Bandimere. What we're saying is, you ought to spend money because you're going to need to have that park later. So that is definitely more of an obscure connection between the need and the dollar, and I agree with that. That the sales job that we're going to need to do here is going to be major. We're going to need articles in the paper. We're going to need community meetings and we've got a slide show that those gentlemen put on for us about Bluff Creek. We're going to need all those items to make this thing fly. Meger: I just think that the public is going to be able to do a lot of the sales for us. That somebody may come in and say, I want this in my neighborhood park. Somebody over here is going to say, well at least you have a neighborhood park. I'm sitting in an area where I don't have anything or I have a piece of land but I live by Bandimere and nothing's on it. So what I'm saying, is letting them certainly say what they want and opening it up completely. That's what I'm hoping will happen. Lash: And then it will be our job to sort once we get it all. Huffman: Absolutely. "...... Lash: Sort through that and I still look at that as a little bit of a separate, I don't want to say separate meeting because it wouldn't be a separate meeting but we have...goals and we accommodate in with our goals how much of it can we put in with the referendum and then prioritize it. Andrews: That's it right there. Huffman: See and maybe all it is is to take care of, what my concern would be is maybe that is the very first thing we do on the agenda. We don't do that at the back end. We do it, we have an hour and a half of open discussion. Bring your needs, your wants, whatever and then we'd like to talk about the other areas of concern so that your needs are presented first because if they don't take ownership in this, and Ron I agree with you 100%, it's gone. Lash: If that will be what will get us the big, the whole pie...we're going to lose the whole pIe. Andrews: We'll schedule a meeting as quick as we can. ,..... Hoffman: Dave's hit it right on the head. I don't care if you have the same 10 that the people in the audience have, but if you say them first and say this is our idea, what do you think? They're going to say not much. If they say the 10 and we say boy, that's nice. Those are the same 10 priorities that we have, they're going to go back in the community. The 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ..."" second thing is, we are at a consensus. The issue is if we can earn the votes of those people in the neighborhood by giving them a tenth of the pie to go ahead and make the big things happen, that's great. Huffman: I had a lot of interested people in this until tax bills came out. Roeser: Oh yeah, I think so too. Huffman: And I mean that's reality. I even called Todd one day, it's like what happens now...because I had people look at me and go you're insane. Lash: I think it's a double whammy. I'm here trying to ask for money for the city for the park but I also work for the school district. It's like... Andrews: Well Todd it sounds, I don't know if you need any motions on this but it sounds like we need to schedule a hearing, a public hearing or a meeting and I think as staff, we need to get something in the paper to really build this because otherwise I think this is going to be lightly attended. I ~so think we need to contact all the major sporting interests in the community that have any plans to use improved fields because without their support, it ain't going to fly. ......" Lash: Neighborhood associations. If we have a list of neighborhood associations. Huffman: Can we go back through Minutes. . I mean people who have come here with concerns about neighborhoods. I mean if they're willing to come here obviously there's people out there who are interested in their community and I don't want to limit anybody but I mean that housing group down here. They had a bunch of people here one night. Well, I'll go put myself in front of a lawyer and sacrifice myself if need be and see if they want to come play. But find people with needs and identify them and encourage them to come. I mean on that snowmobile issue I called 7 or 8 people back after a meeting and just the response of calling back and the time of calling was all that some people wanted. Just feeling included and part of. I think we just cannot, we've got to make that the most fair situation. They've got to take ownership. Hoffman: I'd recommend that I bring you a dry rehearsal of what we're going to present at the regularly scheduled January meeting at an initial meeting the second week in January so that can be reviewed formally by the commission. In the meantime we'll start, you should pass a motion this evening to establish that meeting date and then that will officially be posted in the paper and mailed out to all the interested parties. We'll go ahead and develop that evening as the first item on your agenda. ......" 12 ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Andrews: Y ou're talking about the second meeting of January would then be this hearing date? Hoffman: Correct. This hearing date. Andrews: Would we want to set that at an earlier time, ahead of our regularly scheduled meeting perhaps. Manders: Isn't the regular one on the 24th? This would be an early one. Hoffman: No, I would schedule this so you have a time, you need a meeting to review the proposal as I present it. Lash: So would that be the 10th? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: And then our regular meeting would be the 24th? '" Hoffman: Correct. Andrews: So that would be the tentative meeting date would be the 24th then is what you're saymg. Lash: Right, for the public. Andrews: We need a motion for that. Lash: And it would be nice if we had info in the paper. And considering we took...one of the columnists would be nice but either the editorial or one of these columnists would...that what we're trying to do is schedule a meeting to get public input and skip the rest...we want ideas from the public. Huffman: Would it not be better if we submitted an article to the paper ourselves. The reason being is that we can state exactly what we want. If we give it to somebody and we give it full interpretation. Lash: I want both. I want one from us but then I want. """ 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 "",I Huffman: Granted, but if we give it this first one, I have no faith and confidence of any capability of getting it right. I don't. Andrews: I think for us to, quote, unquote, for us to come up with an article, we haven't been able to agree completely on how to word the article. Manders: Yeah, I'd be a little careful about that too. Huffman: Well I'll make it easy. I'll write it down. I'll agree to whatever is written. Seriously. I mean that's, whatever is written. Andrews: I think the better approach Dave is to write a letter to the editor yourself just as a park commission saying this stuff is really important to me and word it the way you want to word it. Lash: Well the editor has in the past had editorials that encourages people to go out and vote. Roeser: Encourages people to vote. Why can't he encourage people to. -' Lash: Right, or at least to say this is the direction the Park and Rec Commission is going. This is what government's all about. They want your input. They want to know that they're on the right track and this is the way you can let them know. You go to that meeting and you let them know what you want. They're there to listen and to me that's what this is all about and all he's doing is encouraging people to participate in the process. Huffman: How can we involve the Mayor and the City Council and get them to publically state this too without deciding an issue either way. He won't. Lash: I don't think he'll do it. I don't think they'll take that stand yet. Andrews: Why don't we, just to get moving here, let's get the motion through to set the date first. Manders: I'd move that we set the date for public hearing on the park referendum for the 24th. Andrews: Is there a second to that? Lash: Second. ...,J' 14 I"""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Manders moved, Lash seconded to set the date for the public hearing on the Parle, Open Space and TI'3i1 Acquisition and Development Referendum for Janu3lY 24, 1995. All voted in favor and the motion canied unanimously. Andrews: Okay now as far as do we want to do anything as far as the resolution of, I think we're premature. I have to be honest. We haven't even had a hearing yet to know what it is that we want to do. I think to be in favor of having people come, I think it'd be best just to write letters to the editor. You each of us take, write a couple paragraphs and say this is really important for us if you come. To give us the information we need. Write that in your own way or whatever else you want to write but I would say the time to come with a joint resolution would be when it's, after we've had the hearing and want to make our recommendation. That we thoroughly support this unanimously or whatever it is. Manders: Because the 10th is planned to be a working session, right? Andrews: Correct. There's going to be time to draft something then if we wanted to get it into the paper. ",...., Hoffman: And in the meantime I'll sit down with Dean and he'll, at least peak his interest and he'll wait for the appropriate moment to go ahead and put it in. Meger: How do we get it on the bank marquee? Huffman: I think that's a great idea. Roeser: They would do that. I'm sure they would. Hoffman: Merit will put it on in their Highway 5 sign. Roeser: Sure, but I know the bank can do that. Hoffman: Talk a little bit about what type of formats. There's a variety of public hearings, public meetings of this nature. The recent trend is to go almost to like an open house forum. Either at the beginning of the meeting or throughout the entire thing. People seem to warm up to that a little bit more. You know how would you like to do that? If we have a bunch of maps and a bunch of pictures and diagrams and people can come in and mingle for a while or public meeting. Roeser: You mean coffee and cookies. ~ 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ~ Huffman: Is this room large enough to accommodate what we want to do? Andrews: I think it's good. I think it's important. I know I'm harping on this but the certain large ticket items that we're talking about, we need to have some informational material for people to take with them. Hoffman: I can have that. Andrews: You know like a little blurb about the development of Bandimere. A little blurb about Bluff Creek. A blurb about open space. You know trails. A reserve to improve, or finish improvement of parks. About how we are so far behind in the cost of properly bringing these up to the codes that are now on us. I mean like you say Todd, it's almost has to be like a little walk through type deal where you can pick up this, pick up this. Have a coffee. Have a donut and then have a chance to talk. Hoffman: Okay. We'll do that. Andrews: Maybe fairly informal. Roeser: Yeah, because sometimes people get a little. -' Huffman: Over here? Do you want to go to the elementary school and try and do something like that? Have a table for park acquisition and put the maps out on something that people can see. Andrews: That's our regular meeting date though so it should be here. Huffman: On the 24th? Andrews: The 24th, yeah. Huffman: Well why would it have to be here even if it's our, I'm asking now. I don't know procedure here. Roeser: I don't know why you have to stay here either do you. Huffman: I mean if you're expecting, if we get 100 people. Lash: I think we've overly optimistic of the turnout. I think it'd be nice if it was that crowded. ..."" 16 ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Manders: I'd like to see this place full. Lash: Yeah, it'd be nice. Usually unless you're putting a trail in their back yard, you don't get many people. Andrews: Well I think it would be best to be here because we don't know how much time we need to allow and we have our regular meeting to hold too so. Hoffman: And you will need the control of a formal public meeting because there will be a large contingent of anti... Huffman: Weare going to, okay explain to me. Just back up for half a second. Weare going to have an open hearing with a regular Park and Rec hearing it? Lash: Personally I was thinking that should be a separate meeting. Huffman: Yes, absolutely. ",..... Lash: I don't want to have the constraints of having to be, you know checking our watches... I want to be comfortable knowing that they can talk to me, or talk to us as long as they want and we're going to listen to everything and we'll take the information... Huffman: And we're not doing blueprints. We're not doing somebody's subdivision. I mean I don't want 100 people sitting here waiting while we're going, well should we give this park, you know. Lash: Unless we have a light agenda and we do our regular meeting first. Say we start at 6:30 and then go on. Hoffman: It's not going to be light in January I don't think. This one was light. You'd want to rescind your motion and then set it for the second Tuesday of February. Huffman: Jim, go ahead. You said you were against that. You don't like that. Andrews: No, no. No, I'm just trying to get it moving as fast as we can. Now if it works better that we hold it on an off Tuesday, I mean that's a couple weeks difference. That's not a big deal. Lash: What if we had our regular meeting on. ""'" 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ......", Andrews: What's that date? What's the date of the second Tuesday. Hoffman: In February. Manders: It's the 24th. Lash: No, the 1 Oth. Roeser: I'd rather meet two Tuesdays in a row than be forced. Andrews: The 14th is the second Tuesday? I'll be here for that one. Lash: What if on the 10th we had our regular January meeting along with the dry run of what we want to do. Andrews: I'm not sure, can we do that? Are we allowed to do that? Is that our normal? Hoffman: You're regularly scheduled as the fourth Tuesday as published. Roeser: We can't change that? ..."" Hoffman: Not unless you have extenuating circumstances. Andrews: I'd like to move that we rescind the motion of the January 24th meeting and move it to the second Tuesday of February as our hearing date for our referendum. That's the 14th of February. Huffman: Valentine's Day. Lash: Not a good night. Huffman: I won't be here. Meger: A lot of people wouldn't be here. Huffman: I make no bones. It's like Halloween night. Meger: The 7th. That would give us two weeks inbetween. February 7th. Hoffman: Sure, go the 7th. ....."" 18 ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Andrews: I accept that as a friendly amendment. (There was a number of discussions going on at the same time at this point.) Andrews: Hearing date is February 7th. Meger: Second. Andrews moved, Meger seconded to rescind the previous motion for Janumy 24, 1995 and setting the date of February 7, 1995 for the public hearing on the Park, Open Space and Trail Acquisition and Development Referendum. All voted in favor and the motion canied unanimously. Hoffman: And you won't have a special meeting unless we need it for something else in January because you'll get your dry run at your regular meeting. Manders: So the 10th is off then? r- Roeser: The 10th is out. Hoffman: We don't need it at this point, no. We're going to have a lot of exciting things to bring you. By that time we might have the first ever park and trail brochure published and that's going to be the nicest PR piece that the city's ever put out as far as the existing park and trail system. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Andrews: I made an initial oversight on the agenda. Passing by the approval of the Minutes for October 25th and November 15th. Are there any corrections, deletions, amendments to those minutes? If not, can I have a motion to approve the Minutes? For each one separately. Lash moved, Roeser seconded to approve the Minutes of the PaIk and Recreation Commission meeting dated October 25, 1994 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion canied. Meger moved, Huffman seconded to approve the Minutes of the PaIk and Recreation Commission meeting dated November 15, 1994 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion canied. ,.... 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ....", LAND SUBDIVISION PROPOSAL: PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 2.22 ACRE PARCEL INTO 4 LOTS ON PROPERlY ZONED RSF. RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 6660 POWERS BOULEVARD. GOLDEN GLOW ACRES. JAMES RA VIS. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: I move that the City Council require the following conditions of approval for Golden Glow Acres. That full park and trail fees be collected per city ordinance in lieu of land dedication and/or trail construction. Huffman: Second. Andrews: Any discussion? Huffman: Can I change the name? Andrews: It's not part of the motion. Huffman: I'm not going to stop it. -"" Lash moved, Huffman seconded that the Patk and Recreation Commission recommend approval of the following conditions of approval in regard to pams and trails for the Golden Glow Acres: 1. Full park and trail fees be collected per city ordinance in lieu of land dedication and/or trail construction. All voted in favor and the motion canied unanimously. PROGRAM REPORTS: A. SENIOR CENTER. Lemme: This is self explanatory. It's an update on what's going on in the senior center. If you have any questions, I'd be willing to answer those. Otherwise. Andrews: Are we bulging at the seams in the senior center? ....,JIll 20 ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Lemme: It gets more and more busy all the time. The main need I can see that would help us to expand in our programming would be kitchen facilities and I see the recreational center as being a place where I can hold those kind of activities in the future so I see. Andrews: Do you know what the city is planning to do? You know they're talking about expanding City Hall here. Are they planning to keep the senior center in the same building still ? Lemme: Yes they are. Andrews: Are they planning to add to it or just leave it the same space as is? Lemme: It would be the current vision for it is to enlarge it. '" Ruegemer: It will expand to the south Jim. There would be, this whole area just directly to the south, Coulter Drive will no longer be. There'd be like a foyer area that would kind of overlook from up above. Kind of where the back offices are right now with finance and engineering. That would all be, from what I understand, be kind of an open area that would kind of overlook this big foyer area and then that senior center would expand kind of to the southwest. Lemme: The library would expand also. Huffman: Are they keeping the library in this building? Ruegemer: Yes. Roeser: Your trip to Moore by Four got raves from Helen. Lemme: It was fantastic. Roeser: Yeah, said it was really great. Andrews: Any other comments? B. FEBRUARY FESTIVAL. ,..... Lemme: Item 3(b) is mine also. We did have our February Festival meeting this morning and Jerry and I can both answer any questions on that item. We're just progressing and we hope to have another meeting in January and we're still looking for suggestions. This was the 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ....." initial team meeting to find out which groups were planning on being involved again and see if we had some support, which it looks like we do and people are real excited for hopefully a real good day. A lot of snow. Andrews: Any idea of maybe having kind of like a side event and to build interest, to maybe have some snow sculpture contests like at the two high schools, Chaska and Minnetonka, or maybe that middle school would be a better deal to have. Lemme: We did not talk about specifically for schools. We talked a little bit about having some snow sculptures out at Lake Susan so that people can look at those when they're out there that day as well. Andrews: That may be better. Okay. Roeser: What about this moonlight skiing? Where would you moonlight ski? On the lake? Lemme: There would be a trail that would go all the way around, do you know where the ice fishing area was? The trail last year was meant to go all the way around that. There's a loop and then we were going to have luminaries lighting it. '--' Roeser: I hope it works this year. Huffman: Did you remember snowmobiles comes off that east end of Lake Susan, right? Up over the hump there you'd have, just to make people aware that you don't want people flying through there at night. Lemme: Right. Another suggestion from one of the people was to have, as well as a cross country ski trail around that area was also to, if the ice is okay, to plow a trail for skating. So you could really skate. Roeser: All the way around the lake. That would be cool. Huffman: Oh that would be really neat. Lash: Did you think at all of sweatshirts or hats...? Lemme: We've had just one promotional meeting with Deb Kind, as you see there. We haven't gone any further yet. She's still going to bring back a list of ideas of how to change a little bit but not too much the logos so it'd be a real good recognition. ...,; 22 """ Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Lash: I thought the shirts last year were very nice...If we make it we don't put the year on it, if they don't sell, you can just bring it over to next year. Lemme: That's a great idea Jan. We talked about selling buttons as well this year. Ruegemer: Something else for the commissioners you might start thinking about too is prize board distribution. Lash: We try not to think about that. Ruegemer: We're trying to think of new ways to do it. Lash: We had a major nightmare last year. Hoffman: I think they want the night off. Lash: No, I don't mind doing it. That was the... I""" Lemme: We could even duplicate what was on the prize board on paper. So as you pull those names you just write it on there and someone can go running out. It may make a difference too of which direction we have the prize board facing. You guys couldn't even see it last year. We could have it facing. There's some ways to work that. Lash: Every 30 seconds there was a prize. Roeser: It was a nut house is what it was. Lash: And we messed it up. Manders: And there was only one outlet. Roeser: We'll get it this year Jan, don't worry. We'll have Dave there. Huffman: Can I make an amendment to scratch that idea. Roeser: We'll put Dave out by the board. Lash: He can be a runner. ,..... Huffman: That ice isn't thick enough. I'll be on the beach waving at you all. 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 -' C. TREE liGHTING CEREMONY. Ruegemer: Does anyone have any questions? Just our annual tree lighting ceremony was last Monday. Huffman: It's a really neat time. Roeser: I think downtown looks great. It's really pretty. Hoffman: It's a good year isn't it. Manders: It's a different lighting scheme isn't it? It was those clear lights in the past. Hoffman: Just wait until you check out the ice rink tonight. Roeser: Yeah I saw that. Boy that's great. Hoffman: That's Dawn's project. ADMINISTRA TWE PRESENTA nONS: ...."" A. FEBRUARY FESTW AL FIREWORKS CONTRACT. Ruegemer: This item is straight forward. Just if the commissioners had a chance to look at the fireworks display contract. The money for the fireworks was approved as part of our '95 budget process and in the fund 145, and other expenses will be covered than the February Festival and fireworks through the annual sponsorship program so staff recommendation is that the Park and Rec Commission accept the contract of $4,500.00 with a public liability and property damage insurance policy in the amount of $1 million for the February Festival Celebration. The $1 million insurance policy is included in that $4,500.00 so there won't be any extra charge then for the insurance policy. Manders: How does this compare to the, like the 4th of July? Ruegemer: The 4th of July was $10,400.00. Lash: But that increased this year, right? Ruegemer: Yes it did. ...."f 24 I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Lash: It used to be around $7,000.00 or $8,000.00. Ruegemer: About $7,000.00. Roeser: You don't need a motion or anything do you? Andrews: Yeah, we need a motion to approve the contract. Lash: I move that we accept the contract for the February Festival fireworks as presented from Banner Fireworks Display in the amount of $4,500.00. Meger: Second. Lash moved, Meger seconded that the Pmk and Rec Commission accept the contract of $4,500.00 with a public liability and property damage insurance policy in the amount of $1 million for the February Festival Celebration. All voted in favor and the motion canied unanimously. I""" B. ESTABLISH 1995 GROUP RESERVATION PICNIC FEES. Ruegemer: Just FYI for you. The 1994 picnic revenues were listed at $6,542.82, which was a fantastic year for us. We had talked about in one of our meetings, I believe it was July, we included that the school district picnic fees, that type of thing in with our current schedule. We're trying to keep the fees at the same price for 2 to 3 years. I think we're better received in that. That people can keep coming back without a major rate increase for 2 to 3 years so it's staff recommendation that the following rates be accepted or approved by the Park and Rec Commission. If you have any questions, we'll entertain those at this time. Huffman: Do you feel comfortable with the rates and everything? You like that? Ruegemer: I do because last year we just raised them up significantly when we added the Chanhassen Business and non-Chanhassen Business and this year we're going to be adding the school district picnic fees, that type of thing. Right now we're offering really a nice price or facility... If we maintain this year, I would look to increase in '96. Lash: I was thinking that this was all triple between residents and non-residents? If you look at Lake Susan it is. For the residents but then when you look at the businesses it's not triple. " 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13. 1994 ....-iI Ruegemer: We had talked about that when those were approved for the businesses. I think triple we're pricing ourselves right out of the market. That would be an option for the businesses for the...60. That's high for that anyways so. Hoffman: At $345.00 they wouldn't be waiting in line. Do the schools come in and ask for a 25% discount right away? Ruegemer: The schools weren't. no. Hoffman: So you don't count them as a non-profit? Ruegemer: No. Non-profit is like the... Andrews: They're not filed as non profit. Ruegemer: Schools? No. Andrews: No. Hoffman: Boy I consider them non-profit. -" Andrews: I'll move to approve the reservation fee schedule as outlined by Jerry. Huffman: Second. Andrews moved, Huffman seconded that the PaIk and Recreation Commission approve the establishment of the 1995 Group Picnic ReselVation Fees as presented by staff. All voted in favor and the motion canied unanimously. Co FSTABLISH 1995 GATE A TfENDANT PROGRAM AND lAKE ANN ENTRANCE FEFS. Ruegemer: W ebriefly discussed on this issue at our November 15th meeting and I know everybody has an opinion...program again. I know there's a lot of. everybody has been weighing the pros and cons since our November 15th meeting so this should be a topic of discussion that we can breeze through tonight. We've had a lot of discussions last year just about security of the building if we do disband that program and... Those type of issues we can discuss tonight if you choose to do so. The gate attendant program report was included from the last meeting just for your information to review if you have any questions on that. And then also if. after the discussions on the Lake Ann and South Lotus Lake gate programs. ...", 26 ".... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 If the Park and Rec Commission so chooses to adopt a 1995 Lake Ann entrance fee, it is staffs recommendation to keep the following prices. The daily park pass of $2.00. Seasonal pass for residents at $5.00 and seasonal pass for non-residents at $10.00. Andrews: Well I've come full circle on this I think finally after years. I was one that wanted to charge these fees and I would like to see the city provide every Chanhassen residence with a season pass for Lake Ann. I don't think, I no longer think we should be charging our own citizens fees for the park. That's an opinion but it's too good of a park to be denying anybody that's a Chanhassen resident a chance to go to. Meger: I would agree. I guess I would feel a lot more comfortable waiving the fees if we knew that we had a referendum that passed that was going to give us some additional... Manders: I guess I agree with that and to carry the question or the comment one step further. That gray line of enforcing who's not a resident. I mean if you come in with somebody that you know or you're, it's that whole maze of, and I know it's the same thing as it is today. Trying to define who's a resident and who isn't. /""" Andrews: I guess my concept is that in one of the regular mailings that would go out to all households in the city, that they would get a pass. A sticker for a car and then it would be a simple process. When you come to the gate, if you don't have a sticker, you either can buy a daily or a season. Lash: Well why bother having one? Andrews: For non-residents. Lash: I think that, I don't know. Do we ever have a breakdown of the money that comes in resident. Huffman: Right here. Revenues collected at Lake Ann. Lash: I mean it's not even worth it to have somebody stand around...for the number of non- residents that... Manders: That's kind of what I was getting at. Lash: I mean we pay more passes than we would collect. Hoffman: $372.00. I"'" 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ...." Huffman: The only place it does make sense to me is at the Lotus Lake where you have a problem with boats. People actually needing some direction and guidance. I know where the ballfields are. If I'm going to the beach, I walk past people who can help me. I'm going to defer to smarter heads here but somebody sitting at that gate, I know how to drive to the parking area. If I need help I get help from people who are in areas, I need help. Lash: I think the past the discussion has been not so much money that we make or, it had more to do with, Larry was a strong supporter and I know he's gone but it has to do with that there's someone there that people feel is making them a little more accountable for their actions and their behavior within the park. That there are rules and that there's someone there who can, whether they help enforce the rules or not. It's just the mindset that there's someone at the gate. That the money thing is, what do we end up clearing on the whole deal? $11,000.00 is fairly insignificant in the overall city budget. I feel for Lotus Lake, I think because that's so close to neighborhoods and with boats going in and out all day and milfoil and all that, I guess the weekend, I think we adjusted the hours this year didn't we? Just evenings and then all day on the weekends. That seemed to make sense to me. I guess I'm going to be open for once on the attendant at Lake Ann. If we want to just can the whole idea for a year and try to see what happens, let's just do that and see what happens. If we don't want to, if we feel that the gate attendant sends a message to people who are coming in, then we have to, we either need to just pay someone to be a gate attendant and forget the fee, ._,,!II' or hire someone as more of a park service type person. Hoffman: Park police. Lash: Yeah, park ranger. Someone who kind of distributes rules and tries to enforce rules. That kind of a thing maybe we can do. Manders: I guess one comment I'd like to make is kind of pulling a reverse here but. Andrews: Somebody's got to do it. Manders: I'll volunteer to do that. Just recently I just read in the paper about Minneapolis' plight and what their plan is to charge attendance at six of their parks. Now I don't know what that means here necessarily but it's just an observation. Lash: One of the down things that I picked up over the last year or so since the shelter's been open is the irritation by people coming in who are paying to reserve the shelter and then getting milked for another $2.00 to get in and that's an irritation and I was thinking if that's the biggest problem, one solution would be automatically if there's a reservation for the Smith family, you pull up to the gate. You don't have a pass. You say I'm with the Smith family. -" 28 ,.,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 The guy at the gate has got the list of who's got the reservation. You get in without having to buy a permit. I don't know that that's the only problem we have. There's a public perception problem there and I think in a year also where we're going to be asking for a referendum, it's hard to say to people that you're going to be paying taxes for all these improvements and all these parks but you're also going to have to pay to get into it. Andrews: Personally I'd like to see the attendant stay and I would see us quit the fees. One advantage would be, that the attendants don't have to man the gates, is they can walk the park. At Lake Ann in particular that could be valuable. Give somebody a. Manders: Just be a more visible member. Andrews: A walkie talkie or a cell phone and say, your job is to watch over this piece of property. You know walk up to the ballfields. Walk over to the park pavilions. Make sure people are where they're supposed to be and. Lash: And that can be the method to motivate gate attendants. ".... Andrews: Yeah, it's better use of their time. Lash: ...much more motivation and if we have...brochure up of the different facilities at Lake Ann and if the person's carrying around a little bundle of those, he can come up and say, where are the... But then what we're faced with then is where are we going to be coming up with the $7,000.00 to the park attendants. Huffman: The golf course. Andrews: We'd have to make a budget amendment in order to come up with that to plan money because that wasn't part of our original budget proposal. Hoffman: No, you would not. It's under Lake Ann. Lake Ann Park. Lash: I still have a concern with Lotus. Andrews: I want an attendant there too. Lash: Right. I want an attendant at Lotus. There's no parking fee over there is there? Hoffman: No there is not. " 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 -" Lash: I think we need to finance an attendant there. Andrews: We need control and I think the weekends, what we did there was fine. That solved the problem. To waste the money during the day. Hoffman: The employees are all budgeted in the Lake Ann operations and the revenue is not shown to offset that. So the money is available to hire the employees, at least at a gate attendant status. If we're, you know we're not going to have a full force park ranger but we're going to have a person there of a different caliber than a gate attendant and who would most likely work with our public safety department to go ahead and staff these locations more than. Andrews: Right. I don't think you can have a 16 year old. Hoffman: Right, or the roving park patrol. There would be a minor loss in revenues which is very easy to recoup as far as the city's revenue. Lash: Considering this is a yearly revenue and we've been slowly over the years progressing to this spot, maybe we need to just go with it one year and face our fears. Andrews: Once you do it, it's permanent. ....". Hoffman: Once you do it, yeah. You're not going to flip flop this thing around. Huffman: An idea, help me walk through this. Scouts, Explorers. There are law enforcement posts. There are medical posts. There are other posts. Part of their activities, training, what they prepare to do, it's young boys and girls in career type settings and situations. Can we find out if there are any out in this area? Can we tie into those kind of, I mean they are trained in medical, you know minor medical emergencies. They are trained in helping people. I mean that is their orientation and I don't know, you know you don't want a quasi military running around. We have to identify that we have to find them. Roeser: Which group? Huffman: Explorers. Through scouting. But it's a boys and girls senior high school, post high school. career oriented organization and they form in clusters of whatever the current broadcasting accounting whatever. Maybe we could identify, tie in and that's what they do in their summer and they come prepared in health and I don't know. We'd have to walk through that a lot deeper but that's a way of maybe finding some people who have a little more training than maybe what you would have...A thought. 30 ......" If!!" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Lash: My fear with public safety is that we're going to have to be paying through the nose to have a public safety officer... Andrews: $10.00-$12.00 an hour. Hoffman: Yeah, I don't know that we'd necessarily go with a full fledged community service officer. Ruegemer: A good area might be to look for students in training that are going to law enforcement school. This might be an opportunity for them to gain some of that valuable expenence. Andrews: Maybe they'll hire them for less than what we're paying the gate attendant. Huffman: Yeah, I don't want to put, like I say, a quasi military person out there either walking around in a little uniform and stuff. Well I'm saying, an 18 year old in a uniform is going to give me all the confident of what? I'd feel more comfortable. I""'" Andrews: All he needs is a walkie talkie to the city here. That's all he's got to have. We need to make a motion on this. Hoffman: You bet. This will go right up to Council. Andrews: Well I'm going to do this because this is a complete reversal for me. I can't believe it but I move that we strike the Lake Ann fees entirely and that we do retain gate attendants, or park attendants I'll call them, at Lake Ann and Lotus Lake as, either following the same hours that we did last year. Lash: No. South Lotus we adjusted. Andrews: For the amended hours at South Lotus. Ruegemer: I can put those. Huffman: For out of city fees? Andrews: I just waived the whole thing. It isn't worth monkeying with it. It was $350.00 and it isn't worth. Lash: Actually that should say $3,000.00. ".... 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 .......; Andrews: $3,000.00? Still. Lash: It's not worth trying to print up passes. If you want to have a daily fee or something but still I think, unless you're going to have someone sitting there all the time, there's no point in having it. Manders: I second that motion. Andrews: Okay. Any more discussion? Andrews moved, Manders seconded that the PaIk and Recreation Commission recommend to waive entrance fees at Lake Ann PaIk and to retain palk attendants at both Lake Ann PaIk and South Lotus Lake Pmk. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Lash: Did you ever think we'd live to see the day Todd? Hoffman: I haven't seen the day yet. Andrews: You're looking at the guy who was the most motivated collect the fee. Nail them. Make them pay to use. ....." Huffman: No kidding. And you made this amendment? Andrews: Yes I did. Huffman: Wow! Roeser: How long ago was that? Andrews: The last 4 or 5 years. Hoffman: We're going to have to draw straws for that first meeting, first Council meeting in January. Lash: Do you think there will be that much? Hoffman: Sure. Huffman: Why? ....." 32 ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Lash: Why? Hoffman: Fiscal responsibility. Any penny is a penny at the Council level. Huffman: Help us pass the referendum, we won't have a penny to pinch. Andrews: I can't see how we can have a facility like that and then tell our own citizens you've got to pay to use it. I've come to that conclusion. Manders: Through the course of discussions of people coming in here. Huffman: I do pay to use it. Andrews: Yeah, you do. Your taxes pay plenty. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: None. ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION. ~ Andrews: The administrative packet has several items that need to be highlighted. Todd if you'd help us do those, because our tables are waiting at Frankie's. Hoffman: Let's just walk through this. I'm starting with Kilmer Electric. That project is nearly 100% complete. The response from the neighborhood has been overwhelmingly positive and I think that you will look to continue this type of application in any neighborhood park which can accommodate it because for under $5,000.00 we provided these people with a service which they're just going to thoroughly enjoy this winter. The next page, the letter to the Michelle Foster, Paul Steiner, Howard Dahlgren of the Opus project was as a result and a letter to Mrs. Betty O'Shaughnessy, the property owner, was a result of meetings, separate meetings with both those landowners on the Highway 5 open space wetland park which the park commission, the city, the City Council is attempt to put together, and the Planning Commission. Everybody is working on this issue. We had a meeting with Howard, Mr. Dahlgren and Paul Steiner and the park and the wetland continues to expand to the west simply because on their initial concept plans they had drawn lots where wetlands were. Thus it's unbuildable. So we continue to try to make a consistent crossing so the park line does not make this big jog and create a big peninsula out in the middle of the park. Well they didn't agree with that concept. Thus they requested that this diagram be prepared. Hoisington-Koegler put that together for us and we have since had a subsequent meeting and they continue to be very apprehensive, to say the least, in moving forward with this. The second document they requested is that I send off a proposal on how we would just expect to ,...., 33 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 ....", go ahead and acquire this amount of land through dedication, through purchase. You know put your money where you mouth is and so we'll be sending that letter off. In fact I did draft it this afternoon. So those are coming together very nicely. Good Value Homes, Betty O'Shaughnessy negotiations are coming along a little more easily. However there still are some sticking points there but this is a big one to look for. It's 106 acres so it will surpass Lake Ann Park as the largest single piece of park property in the city of Chanhassen when it's done. The letter from Congressman Minge is something of interest. The executive summary for recreational facilities and outdoor developed areas for accessibility guidelines. This is fairly comprehensive and now not only do you face CPSC, Consumer Product Safety Commission and ADA, on a general level now you have these things coming forward and they're really taking a long hard look at outdoor recreation activities and we will be mandated in the future to make these upgrades so look to that. Andrews: More dollars. Hoffman: More unfunded mandates, absolutely. This '95 Bikes Conference. That is really a neat conference every year. It's 2 days. Unfortunately they throw it into a weekend. I'm not sure why. Essentially because of a mix of people they bring down to the conference but if anybody would like to plan on working hard on hosting a Councilmember down to this, these are the type of events where you just say yeah. That's exactly what we need to do. That's ......", exactly what is the right thing to do and so it's really an inspiration on an annual basis. If anybody would like to come along, please let me know. Hennepin Parks, Karen Bowen has sent us a letter on the winter activity plans and quoted specifically the Chanhassen case and to date I see a lot of snowmobile tracks on that railroad bed and I've not received one call from any neighbors. Lash: So have they approved this? Is that what she's saying? Hoffman: Yes. Yes. Oh yes. They approved it. Huffman: I've been out there 2 or 3 times walking it. You can't hear. You can't see. I do not suspect, or I suspect there will be no problems. It's not going to be a big issue. Hoffman: The Hennepin Parks was glad that the city of Chanhassen did this. I jumped a couple of pages forward. City rec programs feeling stress of growth. That's a Chaska article which I believe was run in the Herald and so just to keep you up to date on what's going on in Chaska. If you flip the page to an editorial by Mayor Roepke of Chaska and it shows you the importance he places in projects which promote their sense of community. That's their big buzz phrase down there through the community center. .....tIIfI 34 ,..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 Lash: Or as they call it, poject. Hoffman: Okay, poject, I like that. Nice typo. The main areas of interest in parks related are the expansion of the rec center for approximately $3 million to include that performing arts area. And then the golf course which they've selected their Lake Bavaria site. They call it the 100 acre woods south of Lake Bavaria. So they're committed to going forward with a public golf course. They worked for a long time with a joint process with Hazeltine but that never came to fruition so they're moving on to their own golf course. So things are happening there. Chanhassen Elementary School. This is a joint project we're doing with the Student Council and a neat deal. More promotion, publicity, propaganda in Chaska and the community center. The letter off to Don Ashworth, the City Manager on Departmental Programming Relationships of 276 and 112. That was my attempt to provide an editorial on what I see our relationships with those two school districts. Where they've been. Where they are today and where we're progressing and if you had a chance to read it, I'd be willing to hear your comments at any time throughout your tenure as a park commissioner. The elementary school, we submitted Bluff Creek Elementary and they called us back and said, that's coming from you on the City letterhead. Is that the overall consensus of the city and I said, absolutely. The Park Commission thinks it's a neat deal. The administrative staff thinks .r- it's a neat deal so we'll see. You know typically the school district wants to take one of their names but I don't know if they're going to like this one or not. Lash: I was going to send this in too. I didn't even know we were doing this. As an employee I got a little card and I was going to send it in and then I didn't. Huffman: Would you like...copy and send these off. Hoffman: Call Nancy Kracke. Nancy Kracke is the Community Relations Director at the Administrative Office and that's what it's going to take if you like this name because otherwise they'll pick another one... There's 30 pages of State Comprehensive Outdoor Recreation Plan so if you're interested on a state level where your state government is going in outdoor recreation, this is a really toned down, refined document. This thing used to be 200 and some pages long and they just didn't have the money to produce it so they said, we're going to. Andrews: Lots of ideas but no money. Hoffman: Yeah. And there's still lots of ideas and no money so same thing. There's a neat news article on will the fifth time be the charm for the Waconia Regional Park so that's Carver County government trying to be a player in the provision of parks in the county. Again, I mean this thing has been around. It's dated for 20 years. It kept going back since I"'" 35 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 --' 1975 so you're not the only ones, commission or body, governmental body dreaming about parks in the county ,or the state. There's a Vision 2002 survey came through so if you're interested in that process make sure you take a look at that. It was separated hy one page I think between the cover letter and the body of the text of the report. Letter from Mike Korth on that Pheasant Hill thing if you're interested. Lash: I happened to drive by there the other day just to see it. It looks nice. Manders: The equipment down there? Lash: Yeah... Manders: I went and checked out the slide. Andrews: I missed that letter. Where's that one? Hoffman: With that I have no additional comments in that regard. Once you close the meeting I have an 11 minute videotape on parks and recreation in general which you're going to take a look at. -' Manders: I just want to ask one question on that Chaska's golf course. It just seems like they're just going to do it or is there a process of convincing the public that this needs to be done or everybody's kind of. Hoffman: The Mayor says they're going to do it I think is what he said in there. Lash: In a woods? A wooded area? Hoffman: No. They're going to expand. Take 100 acres off of their Lake Bavaria Park and add some other acreage to it. It's outside of the service area right now so they need to battle with that. And they have some access problems. Huffman: To belabor that point, there was an article in Park and Rec Magazine, I don't know if everybody go it last month, but the city in California. I'm going to bring this up time and time again. You talk about where are we going to get revenues, you know and we're worried about $7,000.00 and $6,000.00 and $3,000.00. In 2 years the city retired it's entire debt and now has a surplus of $250,000.00 per year after all expenses, after everything with a recreational golf course in the city. That's funds from the proceeds go back to the park and rec area. I think that we're fooling ourselves if we don't look at this while maintaining our mandate but where are we going to derive funds. In light of a referendum and how do we -' 36 JIll'*" Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 13, 1994 maintain things down the course as Chanhassen grows. We have to come up. with revenue. The City Council's not going to do it. Our taxes aren't going to do it. .If we want to maintain some of these things, we have to find a way to create money. Andrews: How are we going to buy a golf course in California? Huffman: Therein lies a good point. Hoffman: We have certainly not been a city of enterprise. Enterprise operations. Liquor stores. Golf courses. Any type of amusement. There are many, both city and county governments in the metropolitan area who use those to their advantage and it's just a piece of our history and if you want to change it, it's going to take some convincing and. r Huffman: The City of Minneapolis is closing down open space parks. They do not have hockey rinks this winter. They are dying in their athletic programs for the entire city. Nobody's ever shut down Theodore Wirth. You can't get on it. Nobody has ever shut down anyone of those other parks. They work. They are a proven factor to work. And I'm going to go, as I say, go with everybody but I really, I believe that and everything I have now read and gone in and talked to and watched our neighbors from Eden Prairie to Chaska, we're fooling ourselves. We're going to be a landlocked community with no way to bring in more income. There won't be any big businesses here with a big tax base to support where we want to go over the next 15-20 years. I just, I'm going to harp on it because I really believe it and I'll stand and wave the flag alone on the hill, but I'm going to wave it. So you know we'll get copies of that and go forward. Andrews: Anything else? Lash moved, Meger seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion canied. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim ,..... 37