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PRC 1992 01 28 ~CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 28, 1992 Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Fred Berg, Jim Andrews, Randy Erickson, Wendy Pemrick, Larry Schroers, Dave Koubsky and Jan Lash STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Coordinator; and Jerry Ruegemer, ~ecreation Supervisor WELCOME NEW MEMBERS: Schroers: The first item on our agenda is to welcome our two new commissioners, Fred Berg and Randy Erickson. Congratulat10ns. Welcome to the Commission. We look forward to working together and hopefully we'll be able to accomplish a lot. You have had an opportunity to meet everyone here so far? We are honored to have Mayor Chmiel in our midst this evening. Have you had an opportunity to meet the new commissioners? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Schroers: Very good. For your information, there's a couple of items of past business on the agenda tonight such as approval of the Minutes of December 10th and. ~Hoffman: Item 8. Schroers: Yeah. Priorization of the 1992 Park Acquisition and Development. You probably won't want to vote on tho~e two items seeing how you haven't been involved with them in the past. But other than that we have all been in the situation where we're sitting here brand new and we know that it might be a little uncomfortable at first but we hope that we can make you feel as comfortable as possible and encourage you to participate at whatever level you feel comfortable. Okay. ELECTION OF OFFICERS: CHAIRPERSON AND VICE-CHAIRPERSON. Schroers: Do we have any nominations? Pemrick: I'll move that we keep Larry Chairperson and Jim Vice- Chairperson. Lash: I'll second that. Pemrick moved, Lash seconded to elect Larry Schroers as Chairman and Jim Andrews as Vice Chairman of the Park and Recreation Commission for 1992. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash moved, Pemrick seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated December 10, 1991 as presented. All voted in ~favor except Berg and Erickson who abstained and the motion carried~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 2 ...." APPROVAL OF 1992 AGENCY MEMBERSHIPS TO THE NATIONAL RECREATION AND PARKS ASSOCIATION (NRPA) AND THE MINNESOTA RECREATION AND PARKS ASSOCIATION (MRPA) . Hoffman: Chairman Schroers, really no explanation of this items is needed. What I simply wanted to point out is that our membership to these different agencies are both important to individual members but they're also important to the city as a whole due to the work that these different agencies do. The one example which I cited there is the lobbying efforts which initiated LAWCON which the City has been a very big benefactor of in both the Minnesota Association and the National Association carry out extensive lobbying efforts which do benefit the local municipalities in the areas of park and recreation. That's one of the major reasons I feel it's important that the City does maintain those memberships with those different agencies. Schroers: Okay, very good. Can I ask for a recommendation to approve the agency memberships to the NRPA and the MRPA? ~ndrews: So moved. pemrick: Second. Andrews moved. Pemrick seconded to approve Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission's membership to the NRPA and the MRPA. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ....." Hoffman: Just one side note as well. I've listed the publication sheet you should be receiving and if you don't start receiving those in the next month or so, please let me know either through a phone call or at a meeting so We can get that mailing information back on line. NAMING OF THE PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION AS THE CHANHASSEN TREE BOARD. Hoffman: Chairman Schroers and Park Commissioners. The City h?s recently completed an application to become a tree city USA. If Chanhassen meets four standards we can become a tree city USA which allows us to be eligible for several grants through the DNR, forestry section. We a~so receive a walnut mounted plaque, a tree city flag, special highway signs for the community's ~ntrances. Attached for your review is a copy of the application and a copy of the brochure on tree city USA. One of the four standards is the naming of a tree board. We are asking that the Park and Recreation Commission be named as the Chanhassen Tree Board. A second standard is establishment of Arbor Day Celebration which all City Council members and Commission members would be able to participate in. That way we would formalize and expand on our tree give away program which is held every year. Make that in a form of a celebration. Expand that at Arbor Day recognition and proclamation. Again the preservation and planting of trees is a practice which many of us are near 'and dear to our hearts and we've talked about on numerous occasions. The Planning Commission talks about trees. The City Council talks about trees. I think anything that we can do to further their importance in our city is beneficial. This application has been made. We have not heard back from them'~et. The other two measures which we need to 'meet are you need to spend $2.00 per ....."" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,..... January 28, 1992 - Page 3 capita on a tree program. That's outright purchase of trees. Maintenance of trees. Purchase, trimming, moving of trees. All those. things combined. We did meet that. We were up in the $40,000.00 to $50,000.00 range in expenditures as they relate to trees on an annual basis. Then the other standard is a proclamation. An official proclamation of the Arbor Day Celebration. With that we are asking tha tthe Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission make a motion,to name themselves the Chanhassen Tree Board as well. Berg moved. Lash seconded to designate the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission as the Chanhassen Tree Board. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Todd? I think I read, I guess I'd like us to check into this. In the past Chaska I believe has had a program for residents where t~ey were able to buy. I don't know if they got a deal through a nursery or how this wor ked but they were able to buy tree,s, if they were a resident for a reduced rate as an encouragement. I think it was for mostly new homeowners to try and get some trees on their lots and I think that would be something I'd like to see us check into and see if we could have something like that. Schroers: I was hoping that this would generate a little bit of discussion. I guess are we going to include the Tree Board in our name or are we abandoning the Park and Recreation Commission for the Tree Board? r- Hoffman: Just an additional title. You're still the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission. Being named as a Tree Board is a formality as part of the process of making this application. Berg: I guess as far as Arbor Day celebrations and whatever are concerned, I'd like to see us get involved with the schools as much as possible too. Educate the kids. Lash: You know the little seedlings that they passed out to the kids on Arbor Day, do we pay for those or where do those come from? Are they donated? Hoffman: Received through a donation. Lash: Just speaking for myself when those come home, they're so small that and they come at the time of year when it just doesn't seem like it's not a time that you can plant something like that. You've got to put them in a bucket or you've got to take a lot of care of it and then work it transplanting it. It's so small to put it in your yard that the first time you mow you mow it over and it's history anyway. I thought if we were putting any money towards it, I would rather see it go towards a program where people who need to have more of a substantial tree in their yard could get it at a reduced cost. I like the idea of giving the kids. It's an experience for kids to get the little seedlings but I wonder if any of them have ever survived. r-Hoffman: The survival rate is very low and we recognize that. Tim Erhart does donate the trees each year simply because of his interest in seeing trees planted wi thi n the City. Program which you spoke of in Chaska is, a Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 4 . ..."I very good program. What we would do is, I believe they take orders and we would put the order list out for bids and obviously being a muncipality and having a very large order of trees, you're going to get a substantial price break. Then you have a pick up day and that type of thing. I believe I residents are very interested in planting trees. However when you go to a nursery and you need to pay retail prices, it's fairly prohibitive. Those are some of the issues that were discussed at the Council level when the tree ordinance. For new homes you currently need to plant 1 t'ree and we're talking about shouldn't it be necessary that they plant 3 trees or 2 trees but again you start tagging on additional costs into moving into the community so they wanted a balance there as well. But giving the people the opportunity to purchase at their own will for a reduced price would probably be a successful program. Schroers: I think that just giving us this additional title hopefully will make the entire community a littie bit more aware. Maybe in terms of construction. Taking extra precaution around trees and that sort of thing would be a big benefit as far as I'm concerned. I noticed that we've lost a lot of nice trees due to construction. Hopefully this will help the problem On that a little bit too. Lash: At one point a while back, a year or two ago, wasn't there work on a tree ordinnace? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: At Council. And was that finally approved? ....", Hoffman: Yes. They worked through what we discussed earlier. The 1 or 3 trees. Ordinances are in place for developing, replaoing the caliper inches which is if you cut down a30 inch oak you need to replace 30 caliper inches which is hard to argue that you're replacing the 30 inch oak tree or whatever you cutting down. But measures are being taken in that regard. The map over, the aerial photo over on the board here is in conjunction with the DNR and working on a tree preservation, reforestation program through our Planning Department. Working in conjunction with a forester under contract to take a look at the remaining forest which were originally here. ....and then taking a look at what areas might be likely to reforest to gain back some of that forested area in our community. I believe it's just under 10% that's currently forested which is very insignificant as compared to what the City of Chanhassen used to look like. Andrews: I have a procedural question. As the Tree Board, do we meet within our Park Board meeting? Do we have to adjourn and reconvene as the Tree Board? Hoffman: No. As issues for the Tree Board would come up, those would be discussed in the context of the regular Park and Recreation Commission meeting. There has been discussion or I had discussion today with Councilmember Wing about the possibility of having a subcommittee. Tree Board subcommittee comprised of somebody from the Planning Commission, a couple members from the Park Commission and interested Council members that can discuss these issues and that may be an avenue which the Park Commission would like to investigate as well. ....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting "......January 28, 1992 - Page 5 Schroers: This may enlighten us or open some doors as far as how to preserve some of that Bluff Creek area. Andrews: I just have to make a comment too. I think it's kind of ironic that they're going to give us a walnut plaque as a part of the Tree Board. One of the most rare trees in our area. pemrick: When it says $2.00 per capita. Where does that money come from? Hoffman: They want you to, in your overall budgets so a portion of my salary, a portion of the Planning Director's salary, a portion of the people doing site plan reviews insuring that trees are not clear cut for development. Our park maintenance people who are out trimming trees. -Cutting down dead trees. The work they just completed in Pheasant Hill Park is considered part of that. Controlling the dead tree population that was in that park. The removal or the moving programs we've had within the parks. Leasing a tree spade to move trees. That's all included. So it's included in our overall budget but we certainly could increase the expenditures in the area of trees if we make a point of it and if that's what the city would wish to do. Schroers: Good. Any further discussion on item 5? ESTABLISHMENT OF 1992 LAKE ANN PARK ENTRANCE FEES. ~ Hoffman: Each year the parking permits for Lake Ann are established by resolution. The history of the permit fees and annual gross revenues since 1987 is shown for your information. Attached are the Minutes of last y~ar's discussion which is maybe fresh in your memory and inclusion of the 1991 revenue report which was prepared by Jerry. please note that personnel costs for seasonal employees are shown on the report. However the cost associated with administration of the gate attendant program and the cost of the,permits is not identified. It's interesting to note the series in 1987 revenues were down at about $14,000.00 and they jumped pretty dramatically in 1988. That was the heavy drought year. By the end of May we were substantially ahead in revenues generated. Parking permits sold. They leveled back out in 1989. But then again raised up in 1990-91 and that was due to the implementation of the charging .$5.00 for 15 ball players on each team. That increased revenues by just over $5,000.00 so it shows where that increase came from. Last year's discussion on this issue at the February 26th meeting brought out the following points. It was discussed whether or not we should consider raising the fees in 1992 to increase revenue. Revenues generated are insignificant in the overall budgeting for Park and Recreation operations. Non-residents playing on adult softball teams receive a resident pass and should users of Lake Susan Park be charged a fee? Responses to each of these points has been prepared. I'm sure you've read through them. The fees can again be raised or lowered in any given year. It's reviewed by the Park commission each year and then approved by the City Council. All we need to do is determine what the consequences would be if we raised or lowered or whatever we do with the fees the public is going to react in a certain measure. That's """"what we want to try to do to determine. A second issue is revenues generated from the parking fee program are relatively insignificant on their effect on funding Park and Recreation operations. They represent Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 6 about 2% of our annual operating budget. Non-residents playing softball in Chanhassen are saving $5.00 in the purchase price of a pass and then again as can be seen from the revenue figures. However, incorporating the $75.00 charge into the softball fees rather than relying on the belief that the players would buy a pass anyway has resulted in increased revenues. As stated there, if we attempted to go back in and pl~ck out that additional $5.00 from those non-residents, we would have some very tricky bookwork and tracking t~pe of operations to complete within the department. Then again Lake Susan was acquired, purchased ~nd developed through a variety of funding sources. Charging users to enter this park. To use a community amenity which the vast majority of cities provide free, the fee at Lake Ann Park was originally based upon the assumption that revenues collected be placed in the general fund to offset the lifeguard cost. So the free was originated approximately 18 years ago at Lake Ann Park in an attempt to offset some of the costs in the lifeguarding program. My position as the Coordinator of the city parks continue to be that parks are a service to the community,which are available free of charge. The thought of packaging parks of a product for which you must pass a gate and pay a fee does not match my expectations of municipal parks. However in that Lake Ann is a special use facility offering to my knowledge, the largest fully guarded beach in Minnesota, I have acted neutrally in reference to parking fees in the past. However considering the number of negative aspects associated with the gate attendant program, those are listed there, I'm asking that the Park Commission take a look at, a close look at the parking fee program. This has been an issue which I've put a great deal of thought in. I'm interested to hear the Park Commission's viewpoint on this. You've read through my report there and again it's a situation where we run into a substantial amount of problems operating that gate house. And for the $10,000.00 which are received back for that, I'm questioning whether or not that's a program which we need to continue to operate as a part of the operations underneath the Park and Recreation Department. It is revenue. I know that the Park and Recreation Commission has been very conscious of that particular revenue. It's about $10,000.00 give or take on any particular year. The City Council is very conscious.of that revenue. However, taking a look at that number as it relates to our overall budget, it's fairly insignificant. If we were just to dismantle the gate attendant program, $10,000.00 being worked back into the revenue side of our general budget is pretty insignificant. We are a municipality which is different from most others. There are very few munici~al parks within the State of Minnesota Which have this type of fee and so again the recommendation which I'm bringing forward to you tonight is that the revenues which were anticipated in 1992 have been budgeted in our 1992 city budget. Recommendation is to keep the fees for 1992 as they were in 1991 but to take a close look at what we're accomplishing with that gate attendant program and to forward an appropriate recommendation upon doing so to the City Council. Schroers: Thanks a lot Todd. deserves some discussion here. pf interest regarding this and Jan, how would you like to? I think that this is an item that definitely I know that I have some particular points I wouldn't be surprised if there are others. Lash: Start? Gee, I was interested in hearing what everybody else had to say first. I do have one question first for Todd. I'~ not quite clear ......", ....",; ....",; Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,..., January 28, 1992 - Page 7 about your meaning. . By doing so the City would realize increased service in other park and recreation areas? How would we? Hoffman: Simply by the, it takes a considerable amount of time to administer that program. To hire employees. Go ahead and conduct employee training and make out time schedules. Receipt the money each morning and if we do not have that program, it would simply be hours gained to accomplish other things within the department. Lash: Okay. My thought was that your meaning for that was that we would use the gate attendant in another manner. Hoffman: Other manner, no. Lash: Okay, because then I didn't see any cost savings for us. Hoffman: Approximately 6 or 7 people are employed as gate attendants each year and those positions would simply not be available under the department. Lash: I know one of the concerns that's come up in the past, and I think that this is Larry's and it is one for me also, is the fact that having the gate attendant I think does tend to make people feel a little bit more accountable for their actions within the park. Maybe if we were to review ~this whole program and instead of having a gate attendant, have more of a roving person throughout the park and I think we've talked about that as something we wanted to look into anyway. More with volunteers or senior citizens as having some park patrols. Maybe that would be an option rather than having someone at the gate. Schroers: Okay, maybe I can elaborate a little bit more on this. I have quite a lot of experience in this gate attendant arena. I totally concur with Todd that it is, it does generate several administrative problems: However, my experience has been that gate people tend to be very helpful. They answer many questions that people will have upon coming into the park and very importantly as you mentioned, I think that they give the impression that that park is staffed. It's a place that we care about. We're concerned about and I have a real concern. If we take the gate out of there and we just have an open door policy, people are going to get the idea that they can just 60me in there anytime and do just about anything they want when the gate is not locked. And even though we may have some patrolling going on and some police protection, they aren't going to be there at all times when the park is accessible and people are going to go in there and cause damage and carryon disruptive behaviour and that sort of thing in the absence of a staff person. I thihk it's really important to have that there. Another reason that it's good to have someone there is to have a phone and someone who knows how to get a hold of someone in case of an emergency. I realize that there is a phone and lifeguard that's trained down on the beach but there is quite an expanse of park that is not on the beach. The ballfields and at the tennis court and if there is an injury, someone can go right to the gatehouse and say I need help and then """"they can get some help in a hurry. So my concern is not losing a revenue or the revenue that's involved but we all calling a special use facility and I think the reason for it is because it's a special place to all of us Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 8 ...." and we need to give it special care and it maybe doesn't have to be a gate person but I think that we have to have some visible staff person in the park to both be helpful in a number of ways and to protect our interest in the park as well. Berg: Tying in with what you're saying, I'm wondering if the fact that you have to pay a fee even though it's fairly negligible, if that doesn't help create the image of it being a special park. That doesn't add to it a little bit. Schroers: I think it does but if there's no one there to collect a fee, it's on your honor system, the younger people, the people th~tyou're generally going to have problems with. Saying ah, I'll pay next time.. They're in the park. Berg: I'm saying the two together would, they'd have to be together. I'm not saying elimination of the guard. I'm saying having the fee and the guard there helps create the feeling that it is a special. It's a different place to go. Schroers: Yeah. I think that I would not be interested in attaching a fee to the use of Lake Susan Park unless at some time we got that up to where it was on line with Lake Ann and we were offering a full service beach with lifeguards. I think we're basically going to be catering to a younger crowd at Lake Susan and I wouldn't care to charge a fee to get into Lake Susan. I guess I like the structure, the rates as they are but I think we maybe need to work on the attendant program and maybe do some creative thinking and kick around a better idea. However I don't know what that might be. I think a roving park person, unless he's someone that's on a vehicle that teally ~ets around and the vehicle is signed and he's real identifiable, I think that that's a workable situation but otherwise having an attendant in the gate is everyone that...and that sends them a signal when they're coming to use our park. ...." Koubsky: It's the one benefit I see too to the program is we do create, even though our mission isn't to create jobs, we do create some part time employment for 9 people which is, the community's paying the fee but out o~ that we're giving some people some job experience and some level of responsibility. An idea I had just here, we have the extra $10,000.00 and I knowsupervisi ng or ove.rs'eei ng 9 additional people is a' drai n on staff. I was wondering if it~s possible to research an internship. Somebody who may be studying for park and rec. Possibly a part time position over the summer. Roll some of that $10,000.00 into that which would help you and Jerry out Todd. There again we'd be creating a position. We'd be creating some employment. Keeping a watchful eye over our park system which I think we're all concerned about. We would be helping you out. We'd be helping the 9 gate guards out and possibly somebody's potential carreer path. Hoffman: We have included in the 1992 administrative budget $5,100.00 for a contract employee for approximately 4 months. Their position title would be program specialist and so they'll carry out quite a few of the duties which Jerry would be working ori. Freeing up more time for Jerry'to be involved with the gate attendants. The training of the gate attendants has ~ been one issue which we've put additional time in each year. It's a unique Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,..." January 28, 1992 - Page 9 job. You're isolated. You have a lot of time on your hands in certain cases and in other instances you're very, very busy. That tends to lean towards, how shall we say it, inappropriate work habits at certain points. It's hard to keep these people on the ball. Having some experience with i the folks at Hennepin Parks, I believe their gate attendants do a good job. They are a'messenger. They do provide information about the park. However, on the other hand they do receive a lot of verbal abuse and a lot of heckling as well from folks. So it's an issue of concern to us and we continue to try to work out the problems. Lash: Has the verbal abuse declined though over the last few years? I , know at one point you did think it was really not worth the effort that was going into it when we were having the problems with the visitors. The visiting team parents coming in and having to pay and when we changed that policy. What kind of people are objecting to this? Are they non- residents? Are they residents? Ruegemer: I think spectators coming in to watch adult softball would be one of them. Hoffman: It's a pretty wide gambit. A number of people see the park sign and pull off TH 5 and just want to drive through the park and find out what it's location is and they get nailed with a fee and ,they don't want to pay it so either they turn around or they give you some type of their opinion ~of being charged to enter this park and pull a U turn and head out of the . park. ~e talked about that. I think the point was brought up tonight about the Commission. My thoughts were down the same avenue. It does provide some security for that park. It does provide jobs. Employment. We keep a very close tab on that. We try to hire city residents for our seasonable positions if they are available so there are benefits to the program. If it is the wish of the Commission to continue that, we would certainly carry out that program and continue to work on it to improve it. Schroers: Several of these issues have come up for me in the past just personally at work and we have the same thing. People drive up and say we just want to drive in and look and see what the park is like in case we'd like to come back and see what kind of picnic facilities you have. We say go ahead. Come on in. We don't charge them a fee. I think that the same courtesy can be shown to someone who comes and says well, I just want to watch my neighbor play ball for a few minutes or something like that. We can certainly let them drive in. I don't know, besides the seasonal stickers, do we actually hand out a sticker for a daily par ki ng pass that they have to display in their window? Hoffman: It's just like a post-it note with the daily pass on there. La$h: Why is that necessary? Hoffman: Why is it necessary? Simply to, if we do do an enforcement of a community service officer going through the parking lot, they have identification on their vehicle. ' ,.... Koubsky: It's a receipt. Park and Ree Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page. 10 ....." Hoffman: Receipt as well. If we did not do that, if we ever chose to do some type of enforcement, that type of issue...identification on the vehicle. Lash: But you could assume if the vehicle is inside the park grounds they've gone past the gate attendant and they have either shown their pass or paid their daily fee. Hoffman: On numerous occasions when people do drive up and they don't want to pay the fee, they just take off into the park. Then we instruct the employee to call a community service officer. Hopefully get a license plate and then they head on down and try to locate that person that just flew by the gate. Lash: How often do those kinds of things happen? I'm naive I guess but. Hoffman: Jerry has worked with that program for the past few years but in my experience, I'd have to stop in there just to work with theseasonals on the way home and things like that and for the most part people are fairly . cooperative but there are instances where I stand out there and people are fairly objective to the system. Again it's unique. There's only one other city park that I'm aware of in the metropolitan area, or in the State for that matter, and that's the Bloomington, it's a special use, the beach there at Hyland. Across from Hyland Park in the city of Bloomington. So many people aren't used to it. That may be one of the... If you go to a . State park or County park you're fairly tuned in or you're patterned to elS-pect to pay an entrance fee when you get there. People who are used to going tb other communities to watch a ballgame OT play in a ballgame or come to a particular softball tournament typically are not charged and so when they show up at our door, they say what? -'" Schroers: I think that's understandable. I think if someone wants to drive in the park to look for their dog. To look for their lost child or to see if a neighbor or a friend happens to be there. Whatever, some kind of reason like that, the gate person could just say fine. Just go in. If ~omeone wants to come and attend an event, a ballgame or something or spend tim~ at the beach or something, I. think we have a right to charge for that because we do have a capacity limit in that we have only so many parking spots and people who aren't willing to pay for a place and to come into should maybe go somewhere they don't have to. I understand what you're saying about the ballp~rk thing and I really agree with that. It would probably upset me a little bit if I had to go somewhere and pay $2.00 to get in but I just don't know how you can get around that. How can you say well we're charging if you're using the beach but we're not going to charge for using the ballfields or the tennis courts. That would create more administrative difficulties I think than leaving it as it is. Lash: You have given instructions to the gate attendants that if somebody hassle them they should just let them in. Hoffman: Let them in and take their license plate. Lash: I guess if people make a stink about it, you should just let them through. We don't have to have these hidden tactics on them or anything. ....."" Park and Rec commission Meeting ~January 28,1992 - Page 11 Schroers: Do you have trouble with the attendants themselves? Do complain? Do they generate a lot of problems because of whatever? too hot or someone hollered at them or something like that of that Do the attendants themselves create, problems for the staff? they It's nature. Ruegemer: I think when they do have a lot of time on their hands, they do tend to not have real good work ethic I would say but that's something that we have to work on as far as service training. How can we motivate the employees to not screw off. Keep their mind in tune to what their task is. Hoffman: Be expecting that next car into the gate. Welcome to Lake Ann Park. Schroers: Some of that we've come to take in stride. At certain jobs, our lifeguards when it's 60 degrees, cloudy and windy and no one's at the beach, you hardly expect them to sit in the chair and stay focused and that sort of thing so we just kind of take a certain amount of that into consideration and then as supervisory staff, just to make sure that it doesn't get to an unacceptable level. That's our job and that's what we're getting paid for is to say you know, for these seasonal employees that are at that age where most gate attendants are still high school age and then others, lifeguards and stuff are a lot of time college aged or whatever. But park and recreation should be an enjoyable thing not only for' the people that come to use the facilities but for the people that work there ",.....as well and we try to keep a balance. I don't think it's reasonable to expect to pay somebody $3.50 or $3.75 an hour and expect them to perform like a Swiss watch or something like that. So we tolerate a little bit I think we kind of stress the fact that we're trying to maintain an image and you know, if you're reading a book or something, just don't be sloppy. Don't be obvious. Be half undressed ~nd have obnoxious music bothering other people and that sort of thing. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 12 Hoffman: A fee? Koubsky: A fee. You know a fee is one method of generating revenue. Hoffman: Correct. If we did not have a fee, then it would simply be a budget expenditure out of the general fund. Lash: And as of, well not this next year but the next year we'll have to have staff down at ,the. Koubsky: Concession building. Lash: Right. And that money would come from the boat rentals. Do you think that the boat rental fee,would be enough to offset the attendant salary too? Hoffman: Probably not. Lash: We're just going to break even? Hoffman: If we put a gate attenda,nt out there without the job of collecting fees, that would really be. Then they'd have nothing to do. This issue has been revisited. You gO back each year, maybe it's a sillY ordinance. Maybe we ought to make it every 5 years because it's been discussed on and on each year and the beach discussion has been brought up. Should we move the gatehouse down to the beach parking lot and just charge for the beach and let everybody use the ballfields at will? So the program in the past few years since we instituted the policy that youth sports or anybody who's paid for swimming lesson and their parents, participants, whoever so we're essentially letting 25% of the people that drive up to that gate in free. Since we've instituted that policy it's worked fairly effectively. We've had some moaning from the softball teams since they have to pay $75.00 per team for the parking passes but again, it's raised our revenue. It's helped out the program so it's ran fairly smoothly. The recommendation to keep it at last year's rates for 1992 came across. However I did want to test the waters about the gate attendant program. I have mixed emotions as well about the gate attendant program at the boat access. Again~ a very unusual situation to staff from 6:~O a.m. until 6:00 p.m. or 8:00 a.m. until 8:00 p.m. to staff a boat launch. A municipal boat launch. _The only one that I'm-aware of, it occurred simply because the city at that time needed to appease the concerns of residents in that area when that boat access went in. The program does cost the city dollars to administer and dollars to hire those people. The benefits we receive back are again that it does tend to enforce or at least we can enforce the parking policies which are in pl~ce down there at South Lotus. Not parking on the street and that sort of thing. With the Eurasian Water Milfoil issue, whi6h was brought up, some of that checking is taking place but as I mentioned in my report, again it's really a small portion of the total time when that boat access is open that we have somebody there staffing it s~ you can't expect that it's going to keep Eurasian Water Milfoil out of Lotus Lake. In fact the lake already has Eurasian Water Milfoil sO. Again the gate attendant policies, we can certainly continue to op~rate as we have in the past. It is generating some revenue. Agairi I Just wanted to ....", ...." ...", Park and Rec Commission Meeting I""" January 28, 1992 - Page 13 test the waters about the feelings of the municipality or the city charging for city parks. Or at least one of our city parks. Schroers: I'm curious about a couple things. I guess that you could sell me on the fact that we don't need an attendant at the boat launch. I could live with that. I think just we can inform Carver County Sheriff and our local deputies that we're pulling the gate person out of there but we would like the ordinances enforced and I think word will get around real fast when they start getting ticketed for parking in the wrong place or for too many vehicles parking in the designated parking area and they start getting ticketed. They're going to be unhappy and they're probably going to holler about it and that sort of thing but that will definitely get the message across. I think we could live without a gate attendant there. But I'm wondering how staff feels about not having an attendant on Lake Ann. Do you feel comfortable with that? Do you think that just opening up Lake Ann and not having an attendant too will be okay? I mean I just, the first thing I see is people out spinning donuts out on the ballfields and that sort of thing. When there's someone standing in that gate, that tells somebody hey, we can't go out on the ballfield and drive around with our cars because that person in that gate is going to call someone. That's what they're here for. But I really believe if we leave Lake Ann unattended we're asking for some real problems that could seriously deface the par k . ~Andrews: I want to make two comments. I'd like to make a motion because I think we've beat this to death. Lash: Again. Andrews: And I think it will pass unanimously. My only comments were the attendant will help with glass. Keeping the glass out of the park and keeping the pets out of the park. I think that's another benefit out of that and the presence of a gate attendant at Lake Ann will definitely cut down on potential vandalism or inappropriate use. I mean it's just inevitable it will have some positive effect. And with that said I'd like to move that we approve the fees as they were in 1991 for 1992 and that we beat this to death again next year. Schroers: Okay. Before we move to second that, would you want to add the discontinuation of the gate person at. Andrews: At South Lotus? Schroers: At South Lotus. Andrews: Yeah, I would like to add that actually. I think that's unnecessary based on what I've seen over there. Lash: Is that something we can take action on tonight since it was not on the agenda? That's something that could generate, ~Hoffman: It will generate some discussion. It certainly will. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 14 """"" Schroers: Do you want to bring that up as a separate item on another agenda, that's fine if you think that would be more ,appropriate. Andrews: I will agree with that then that we remove that addition. SchroeYs: Okay, then is theie a second to Jim's motion? Lash: Second. 8e~g: Another discussion item if Icpuld. Schroers: Sure. 8erg: I guess I~d like to see too in terms of the training of the ,employees with the gate attendant~ to use some discretion in terms of the people that they hassle. Not hassle but insist that they pay. I'm thinking if a neighbor goes down and wants to watch "his best friend playa softball game, the bad will that we're going to create by insisting that he pay the $2.00 is not worth it. If the money is negligible anyway, it's only sense, the attendant's sense that there's some abuse of the system. If they want to go in and watch a softball game, let them do it. If they're coming every week and they're establishing a routine, then they can spend the $5.00 for the pass or whatever but I don't think it's worth the ill will that's going to be created by insisting that these poor people pay the $2.00 every time they come in to watch a softball game. If they're clearly goin~ down to the beach and they're clearly not just going there to do that, then insist that they pay. But ask them what they'r~ coming in for. And if they're coming in to watch the game or they're going to be there Just looking for their friend or their neighbor to see if they're there to pick up their kid or whatever, I don't see why they have to be charged. ......,;I Hoffman: It's been discussed. We attempt, even individual from employee to employee. Each employee enforces that toa different degree. It's difficult to set up policy in that because it's fairly arbitrary. If we started to do that to any significant amount we could probably see the revenues drop by a few thousand dollars in"very short order. Schroers: We could also have a situation where somebody's coming back at us and saying, hey I had to pay $2.00 and this person didn't and we're doing the same thing. Hoffman: Yeah. It's pretty difficult. If we want to do that, we, need to do that in a consistent, policy basis such as we did with the youth programs. It's stated specifically, in fact we should restate that in our motion, that participants of youth sporting activities or swimming lessons or youth activities where they paid an initial fee, whether it be swimming lessons, T-ball, Little League. Lash: Soccer. Hoffman: Soccer, and their parents and their spectators do not need to pay a fee to get into the park.. That all came about because of the outside teams, the visitor teams coming into town and feeling it Was very unfair to ......" Park and Rec Commission Meeting rJanuary 28, 1992 - Page 15 pay a fee to get into our home field when we went to their home field and we don't need to pay up there. Schroers: I want to apologize to Jim. I think I 19st control of your motion here. I think we should follow through with that and then we can continue on with a little discussion after if we want to do that since we started it. Andrews: I think we should call the question. Schroers: Okay, so we had a motion from Jim, second from Jan. Andrews moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to establish the Lake Ann Park entrance fees at the 1991 rates as follows: $2.00 - daily pass $5.00 - Seasonal pass - Resident $10.00 - Seasonal pass - Non-Resident All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimou~ly. Schroers: Okay. The motion is carried. Now if there is any additional discussion or concerns. ~ Erickson: There's one thing I'd like to say I guess. I really see both sides of this that Todd has brought forth and I can see why you discuss this every year. Being new to it, I don't have as good of background in this maybe as the rest of you but it sounds like one of the major concerns is just a security issue. I shouldn't say just a security issue. That's very important but maybe in the future if this can be brought up, you might want to look at, what time does the park close? 10:00? 10:00. The gate attendant leaves at like 6:00 typically? Ruegemer: No, it's usually 8:00. Erickson: About 8:00. Okay. I guess I would just think that a lot of possible, and I don't know. You can maybe check records and stuff but vandalism probably happens at that later period. I would think that during the middle of the day, from that 10:00 to 6:00 with mOTe people -in the park there would be less of the vandalism just because of the sheer number of people in the park. Maybe in the future you might want to approach that as when problems do occur. of course that's not going to be real scientific with someone there and then someone not there. You're going to have less with someone there but maybe look at it that way in the future. See if there is a problem after the attendant leaves. Schroers: I think I agree with you on that Randy. The majority of malicious vandalism and stuff is going to be done probably after darkness and in the late hours but I think when a person drives past the park and sees during the daytime that it's wide open and it just looks like a place ~where you can go in there and do what you want. They're going to also remember that for the evening. I guess I'm just, because of past experience, I'm uncomfortable having an area that isn't attended or else Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 -Page 16 ....",., patrolled frequently enough to get that message across because any areas that we have had like that have been problem spots in the facilities and the very environment itself has suffered as a result. I really hate to see that happen to Lake Ann after all the money that we've Just poured into the place and as nice as it's becoming. I Just think that we really need to take care of it. Andrews: I would like to see a future agenda item though on South Lotus Lake. I think that's a good idea. Schroers: I like Dave's idea earlier about that internship program. Possibly being able to work that in to help staff out with some of the problems in keeping the gate attendant program enforced. Hoffman: We'll be back at 3 basically full time staff people this summer where, because of the departmental changes last year we were not. Andrews: When do you put out the hiring notices for these part timers? Hoffman: In fairly short order. Ruegemer: Yeah, typically about February. Late February. Andrews: Maybe we should put this on n~xt month then. Hoffman: We'll put it on the agenda for South Lotus. That will bring out some in depth discussion probably. Since it's not, needs not be reviewed ~ each year because there's not a fee there but if we go back and present a packet of that and we start reading Minutes, you'll see the discussion which were held that initiated that program which were much more on fire than any discussion which has ever been held about the fees at Lake Ann Park. Lash: Was that prior to the access going in originally? Hoffman: No. It was all along with the access and the neighbors having concern about the use of the access. Andrews: There were some real problems there when it first opened with parking. It was just totally out of control. I used to use that access. It was just nuts. Schroers: I think that we can certainly rely on our law enforcement people to get the message across with the parking. If we're not getting our money's worth out of an attendant there and it's costing us more than it's worth and actually creating more problems, I think we could justify our actions by not having an attendant there. I would think ~ost of the concern of the people who are living there are the actual goings on on the water. What's taking place on the lake and that is something that the attendant can't do anything about anyway. Hoffman: The original concerns about the number of boats and parking and that type of thing but again all those are coupled with this Eurasian Water Milfoil issue which many of the lakeshore homeowners are very concerned -' Park and Rec Commission Meeting ".....January 28,1992 - Page 17 about. If they think this gate attendant program can assist in stopping the spread of milfoil, it is now in Lotus Lake. We do not know to what extent the weed has grown in that lake yet so that's another issue which we'll need to take a look at. Schroers: Okay. Well like Jim said, we'll beat that to ~eath next time around. I think just to make up for some of the slack here, we'll just zip right through it and we'll move right on to item 7(a). 1992 PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION GOALS. Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers. For your information item 7 was the 5 year capital improvement program for trails within the city. That would have been a fairly extensive discussion. With the request I received from the City Manager Ashworth for the commission to come up with some goals for 1992 to present to the City Council, we deleted that item so you could have some time to spend on discussing what it is exactly that the Commission would 1 i ke to accomplish. Agai n other tl:lan some items wi 11 parallel what we've already discussed in capital improvements. Be it Pheasant Hills or trail segment down to Lake Susan Hills. Or from Lake Susan Park to Chanhassen Hills but there's other things that we've discussed on a broader range which would be labled under goals which the City Council is interested in hearing about. So City Council, staff members, other Commissions and this Commission all know which direction we're heading in ,I""'''as far as the park and recreational facilities within the city. So we'll open it up from here. I'll take notes. We'll try to generate some discussion but then again we need to 60mpile a list of specific goals. The City Council h~s set their goal session with staff to review these goals for February 29th. That's a Saturday at the fire station so we will be sitting down and going through it. Staff member department heads will be sitting down with City council going through these particular goals with the City Council that day. Schroers: Why don't we on this, since this could get to be a real philosophy session here, why don't we just start at one end and go through and give each person a chance to express how they feel about the trails then and what you would like to see. Actually what you feel are maybe somewhat reasonably attainable goals are and I know that that's difficult to say regarding funding and other things that are taking place. Construction of TH 5 and how much help we can get putting these trails into place but I think everyone has got probably ~n idea of what they would like to see in the way of trails. Let's do that rather than just. Andrews: I have a question. This is pertaining not to the trails? Hoffman: Correct. To clarify Larry. Item 7 was deleted. That was the trail discussion for capital improvement. We just need to talk in broad. Schroers: Just in general goals? ~Hoffman: Yes. The Tree Board. Parkland acquisition. The future of the , 'city's greenways. The future of the city's lakes. Lash: But it's annual goal isn't it? Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 18 -'" Koubsky: This is 1992 goals. Hoffman: COTrect. This is 1992 goals. Lash: So it's not too broad of brush strokes. It can't be your vision. Hoffman: Yeah. You can start your vision. Visionize in 1992 and go from there. 5chroers: Alright. Well we 6anstill 'operate the same way. Why don't we start with Jan. You're on the starting end this evening. Lash: This is a tough. I think this is a tough assignment. I can only think of a couple of things that, I don't know how to do this but I gues~ I would like for this commission to prioritize or to,'I can't even say what I'm thinking. We have in our long range vision acquiring park property out by Lake Minnewashta and completing the Bandimere complex and the" trail system and some pretty big visions that we know won't be coming very soon for us because of the financing. I guess I would like us to try to work on identifying narrowing down our big visions into a couple of smaller visions and then pi'ioritizing them and coming up with a way for us to deal with the financing. How we are going to do this and make a plan so that we can finally attain these big visions. Instead of just. plunking them into the budget for 1995+ and just hoping by 1996 we'll get a windfall and we'll be able to do it. Actually show that it is a priority for us by starting to plan how we ar~ going to be able to do this financially and not count on a referendum or not coGnt on a grant or anything like that. I guess it would have to mean budgeting some Out of our yearly budget each year. Bitter of a pill as that is for us. But at least to do some brainstorming. I guess that would be my goal. To look at some possible solutions for us to reach those long range goals. ' ....", Koubsky: I guess my thought, I agree with Jan. We need to sit down and prioritize some type of planning strategy. What do we want to accomplish? One of those things might be to continue to provide sufficient facilities for youth and adult sporting activities. To do that we may need to develop Bandimere. We may need to have a bonding issue. If that's our priority is to maintain enough facilities to insure recreation activities to continue, then I think bonding would be an appropriate recommendation to the Council. But I do think we need to prioritize what does this Board what to achieve OT maintain in it's park system, and th~t would be throughout. As demographics increase, we have to change and develop our land that we own or purchase new land if we see that's a priority but I think athletics is both mens, womens, boys and girls is a very important part of recreation. We have to live up to the fact that it's a growing community and we need additional facilities. I agree with Janwe have to prioritize and plan. I think bonding is okay if that's what we think we need to fulfill that priority. Part of that too, we need to maintain safe facilities. I think this year we don't have a lot of money to spend but we should insure that recreational facilities, the to~lots, the swings, the docks are in safe wOTking order. Even if we have, there's quite a few parks that we haven't had funding for, if they have swings or whatever like was brought to our attention last year. There were some unsafe environments in one of the parks and we responded quickly to correct that. That I think is a .....I Park and Rec Commission Meeting r- January 28, 1992 - Page 19 priority. That all the parks and the things are safe. I think we need to work at developing each of our parks so at least some of the land, we have some type of activity throughout the park. Or throughout the city to some point. Be it a bench or be it a mowed walkway on some undeveloped land. That's what I think. Priority is number one. what do we want to... That's my goal. Pemrick: I agree wi~h what's been said here tonight wholeheartedly. It seems that we always come up against these road blocks. Well wouldn't it be great but we don't have any money. Like you say pushing things out to 1995-96-97 like we talked about the 8andimere development maybe having to go into those years. I believe a bonding issue at this point would maybe not be real well received under the economic circumstances of the community in general. However, it. would kind of give us a starting point. You know we'd have something to go on for the next round. At least we'd be moving in that direction and trying to achieve some funding for these things. But other than that I think just making sure we do provide safe facilities at this point and keep everything operational as best we can that we do have in place I think is important. ' I think we do a good job of doing that. But yeah, with the population gTowth and with the orientation towards greater youth in,the community, we're going to have a lot of demands on us to provide more and more for that whole area so I think we'd better seriously start looking into those areas. .,,-.., Schroers: Randy, do you have any? Erickson: Well being relatively new, I don't have a lot of things. I guess I was thinking what's already been said. Maintaining things at the quality level that I believe they're at is kind of my simplistic goal I guess for the year. Schroers: Yeah, you know maybe keeping things in perspective and not trying to bite off a bigger hunk that we can chew just kind of, do the things that we can ~ccomplish and not try to overshoot our limits. Jim. 'Andrews: I've got several goals. This has to do more with trails but I've been doing this for 2 years and one of my frustrations is TH 101. How incredibly unsafe it is and how difficult it is to provide any access to the people that live north of town and north of Lotus Lake. I feel that for me the most important thing that I can accomplish or help accomplish would be to somehow get that project, even a glimmer of hope of having it done, I just feel it has to happen and it's going to be a tragedy when some kid gets run over on that street because he's trying to come downtown to come to the hockey rink and use bur nice facilities at City Center. I'm just getting real frustrated with let's wait for the state. No, let's wait for Eden Prairie. No Eden Prairie, let's wait for Chanhassen and nothing's happening. That to me is my number one priority. I'd like to see us also, Lake Ann. The park pavillion area. Making sure that's successfully completed in a first class facility. That we don't trip and stumble. I think there are high expectations both at the Park Board level as well as our citizens to see something there that's going to look good and work ~smoothly right away. And I think it's going to be important for us as a city, we're attracting corporate picnis or whatever to really have a first class operation. I think that hardly justifies the fees that we are trying Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 20 ....", to charge is that we've got a controlled park with first class facilities and we make sure that's a top quality facility for those that use it. Bluff Creek is also important to continue to see that project. I think it's sort of in ,an envisionary stage right now but it's such a rare natural asset to the community. To make sure that we do what we need to make sure that that land isn't lost to development. I think Jan's comment about long term planning and long term funding being looked at SOTt of simultaneously. We've taken sort of the plan it 9utfor the future because we can't see the dollars and I agree that if we don't plan the dollars along with the project, it's probably never going to happen. I look at Bandimere in particular, I agree the bonding environment is terrible right now but I feel it would probably be best, well worth our time to try to get a grip on what kind of money we're looking at. I think part of the project is to educate the citizens that we have something that needs to be done and it's worth while doing. We understand and it might be ,difficult now but typically these things don't go through first time anyway. I think it's a lot easier the second time once you've justified and can establish and prove the costs really are necessary.' And the last thing is, we do have a real lack of parkland in the western part of Chanhassen. I think we have to be eagle eyed for whatever we can find there. I feel that especially our contacts with the larger developers that have worked with us in the past are really important. Really make sure that they understand our interest out of that and we make sure we do what we can for west of Lake Minnewashta. I guess that's about it. Schroers: That will keep us busy for a while. That's good Jim. Okay, Fred do you have anything in this regard? ...", Berg: Like Randy being new, I would echo and certainly would share the concerns that the other Commission members have said. ' One goal I'd like to see in some of the parks and particularly totlots and that sort of thing, talking with neighbors and aquaintances, the issue of safety and being able to be there with their kids or not having to be there with their kids all the time is always an issue and I'd like to See us address that problem. That concern. Whether it be through supervisors. Your senior citizen idea was a good one or explore different avenues to have people there to organizing things for the kids to do. To be there as an adult. Not to be a babysitter but just to be there as an adult in case of an emergency or if a concern came up and let that be known in the community. I think that would be something I'd really like to see happen. Lash: Can I start again? Schroers: Sure. pemrick: You can't talk about trails. I wanted to and I didn't. Jim did. Lash: No, City Center. ,I'm trying now, now that I got off of my big vision and future vision I'm trying to focus for some things that we do already have somewhat on line for the upcoming year. One of those I believe is some work at City Center Park as faT as expansion to the play~round there. I guess I would like us to explore any possible funding options that we have in the past that were successful and to try and add as ~ much as possible to that in this phase. Also to work as much as possible Park and Rec Commission Meeting "......January 28, 1992 - Page 21 with the HRA, if they go forward with this city center. What are they calling it? Hoffman: Central park? Lash: Yeah, this plan and looking at how much we can benefit City Center through that plan as far as possibly acquiring the additional property at. the other end and going through with the whole master plan that we have in mind for City Center and seeing if we can make that a reality at very little cost to us. If we work with the HRA, maybe we can do that. Another thing I thought of in talking about 8andimere is I know a few years ago we talked about the Army Corps of Engineers doing the grading and we were supposed to be on a schedule and all of that and I never really heard an update on that. If that actually occurred and we are on a schedule and we're just biding time until that happens or if we never got put on a schedule and we need to get put on or what the status is of that. I think, that big financial ramification of this whole development for us b.cause it was something we were counting on. Isn't it? Hoffman: Something we're exploring. Lash: Okay. I thought financially that that was basically the plan. To have them do it because it would be so much more cost efficient. And if we had to do it, would we then not have enough, we're not going to have enough ,.....,.money anyway but would it be that much more on top of the estimated projections that we had before? H6ffman: The driving force that was behind that was Councilmember Johnson at the time being in the Reserves. I reviewed the correspondence back and forth and it's never a definite. It's if the Army Corps is in your neighborhood and they have the time and you're ready to roll, you have a grading plan for us, those types of things, and it fits into our schedule, then they can perform the rough grading. Lash: So is it something you need to do yearly? Keeping in contact with them yearly or how does that work? Hoffman: It ne.ds to be a short timeframe. If we're ready to go say next, not this spring but the following spring, now would be the appropriate time to contact them to initiate those conversations. Those discussions. I've had thoughts on we could probably accomplish that in-house as well. We've done North Lotus Lake Park and now we're doing Pheasant Hills Park. Contracting out for grading of site preparation is very expensive. We can lease the equipment and use park maintenance and street crew staff to do that. It would be a fairly extensive project but a tremendous cost savings to the City. Lash: Okay. Another goal, this doesn't cost money so it's probably attainable, and I think that Todd has achieved th{s goal in my eye but I would like to keep this as an on-going goal. Is that we have proper communication with the residents. All of the business that affects us and .JI"" affects them between notification by mail and the paper, I thi nk that Todd has done an excellent job with that and I just would like to make sure that that continues. And lastly is my hope that we can work through cooperative Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 22 .....,., efforts at building our trail fund to an adequate amount that we can then start to meet Jim's goal of TH 101 and my goal of CR 17 and someone else's go~l of whatever their goal is. Pemrick: south TH 101. Lash: Right. Whatever they are. Everybody's got their own. One of the ways that we could achieve that is by being financially, what's in our mission statement? Hoffman: Fiscally responsible? Lash: Fiscally responsible. Yes, that one. In looking at all the trail projects as they come in and being really conscienti6us if it's something that we really think is necessary. If it's something that really fits into the trail plan or. if it's something we think we could live without for now and would rather have the money to do a trail that's a higher pr ior i ty for some of us. Schroers: Okay. I'm kind of saving for last but if anyone else has anything they would like to interject. Hoffman: Wendy, we can talk about trails. This is our overall so if you .want to bring up the issue. Pemrick: I would just like to emphasize the need for something done on south TH 101. I'm speaking of the area from Chanhassen, well south TH 101. I guess the entire stretch. I get calls almost monthly from residents saying when is something going to happen tb TH 101. People that use it for walking now and jogging and what not, it's really bad. But we've discussed that so many times and it definitely needs to be addressed. All I say is, it's in the plan when they realign TH 101 t6be the most cost effective way to do it but that just doesn't seem to be real satisfactory as an answer so I don't know what else to say. -" Schroers: Okay. I'd just like to address a couple things in pretty general terms. I think what we have to do is ask staff a lot of questions, because they are the people that can really help us out with things. It is, I thi nk very realistic to anticipate that there is no way out of par,k and rec budget that we will ever put a t~ail along TH 101. We are definitely going to have to come up with some creative funding sources. Trying to save what we can out of our park budget will help in our totlat areas and things like that but when we're going into major trail development and major community park development, we will never be able to satisfy that kind of funding in a reasonable amount of time. I think that we have to maybe look at our dedication process. and see if that can be somehow negotiated with contractors. I don't know how much more development is scheduled for the part of TH 101 north of town but for south of town for that matter, but we may want to look at sacrificing some open residential park space like the neighborhood parks for the sake of gaining linear parks. Trading totlots for trails. That sort of thing. And also whatever kind of deal we can make along with the straightening out, reconstruction of the road and that sort of thing. We may bave t.o have something that we can really gain there. But I think that if we think that .....,., Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,.... January 28, 1992 - Page 23' we're going to save money to be able to do that sort of thing, I don't see that as a reality. r also think that we need to do all the checking that we can and find out what all is going to be available to us as a result of becoming a tree city and possibly some other things that we have talked about before but not actually really pursued like the fund for development of public land. I believe that's what it was called. It's an organization that researches and tries to attain funding for public land and also in the Bluff Creek area, trying to somehow sell the fact that that should maybe be included into the National Wildlife Refuge which is just about connected to it. And the trail system running through there that may be available to us from the abandoned railroad bed. Coming up with some kind of a plan that connecting that all together and making it look like something in an overall plan that would be desirable and that might work out and we would maybe be dealing with working with the Federal government in that it's a Federal Wildlife Refuge down there. I guess I don't know what kind of political clout being a tree city gives us but that may open up some doors and I think we're just going to have to try to be creative and think about putting some things together rather than kind of just save out of our pockets to accomplish something that would really be unattainable. So I think creative funding is the answer rather than savings account. They're not gaining much interest these days. Okay Todd, did we give you enough to keep you busy for a little while? Hoffman: I believe so. I think what I'd like to do is go back through ,.... here and just express 'some ideas which were generated in my mind due to your comments to hopefully get some additional information back ,from t;.he Commission members. I will as in the past take the liberty to write these out in some fashion or form that makes sense to the City and go forward with presenting them to the City Council on the 29th at that goal session. They're in no particular order but creative funding for trail plans and for construction of trails is definitely the way to go. The goals that's set there is simply to maintain awareness of construction projects or projects associated with the roadways where we have the possibility to attain a trail segment identified in our comprehensive trail plan. Example, Minnewashta Parkway. The sidewalk connected with Minnewashta Parkway upgrade, that project's about $350,000.00 and 90% of that is funded through State Aid money for roadway construction. The rest of it is funded through the roadway project through the engineering department and we simply do not pay a dime for the construction of a sidewalk over close to 3 miles on Minnewashta Parkway. If we were going to attain that on TH 101, it would cost in excess of $350,000.00 to try and do that. It's been joked it would be cheaper for us to buy two buses and stick one at either side of the TH 101 and drive back and forth. Jim's comment in the past. So creative funding is the way to go. We just need to keep our eyesbpen for that so if those roadway projects are coming through, TH 5 is the other key example. As they're bringing TH 5 through the city, there's an 8 foot bituminous trail going on the north side of TH 5 and it's going in as we speak. Plans in the Minnesota River Valley. It was interesting as we went through these, many of these things have been my interest as well and hopefully that's a good sign that staff and Commission have the same interests. Talked with the Director of the National Wildlife Refuge and ,...... the Federal agency today and the land directly south of Chanhassen is not in one of their blocks. They have seven blocks of holdings along the Minnesota River valley from Highway 494 north of Bloomington down to Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 24 Jordan. This particular piece is under the jurisdiction of the Minnesota DNR and they're really not interested in going any further north than TH 212. In fact their Comprehensive Plan simply states that they cannot do that. It would take some pretty effective lobbying to get them to move north of there. The one thing which they are very interested in is the creek there. The trail creek. They're very interested in the wildlife aspect so we can probably buy them into that into moving north into preserving that creek as they purchase land in that area and we can work on them on Bluff Creek. We talked about establishin~ priorities. My question back to the Commission is, is that a goal in 1992 to establish priorities of the Commission or should we be identifying what our priorities are in 1991? The bond issue, it's not a very good climate right now. We're witnessing that in school referendums, etc., etc. plus it's an election year. Not a real good time to put, a bond can and can't be but do we want to look to next fall or the next election? When is Bandimere...the trend is fo~ ballfields. What our needs are and that really should be a goal for 1992 to identify that. There's a potential that we should be taking a look at another community survey. since we did the last survey we probably increased the population by about 4,000 or 5,000 people. Our demographics have changed. Our parks have changed. Our land holdings have changed. It may be an appropriate time to do that so the Commission has, a better handle on what the community is feeling. Safety programs was mentioned three times. Again that would be a job which would be put back to our park maintenance people. Each playground vendor has a particular program which you can pick up and implement in your particular city. It's a very good idea. It's been on my individual's goals list last year. It was not accomplished so it's good to see it back so we can realize that goal. Highway 101 trail. Park pavillion at Lake Ann. Again that's going to be an item we're going to discuss' tonight. We're still not out of the woods in that particular issue. If this rebidding doesn't come back favorable, we're back down into the planning stages. Preserve Bluff Creek. Discussions on that continue on a weekly basis at the staff level, at the Council level. The two gentlemen that were in that gave the slide show and the presentation, they continue to call and follow up. The one thing that did come about, that was the bluff preservation ordinance where you can only build down to a certain distance from the bluff. That came 'about essentially because of the. Redmond house being developed right on the cliff of the bluff and that really detracts from the bluff line itself. Long term planning and long term financing. In budget meetings with the Council this year I mentioned the possibility again trying to go from where we're at and trying to reach out a little bit farther in that many. many cities fund some. of their park acquisition development out of general tax dollars. City of Chanhassen does not. I brought that to the attention of the City Council obviously during their budget meetings and they're trying to trim our budget. They lent me an ear and said bring it back to us next year in an official form and we'll take a look at it. But I'd like the Commission to think about that in that when we develop or improve Rice Marsh Lake Park or Meadow Green Park or any of our established parks which are, already here and we put $8,000.00, $10,000.00, $15,000.00, $20,000.00, $40,000.00, whatever it may be ~ut of our annual budget back into those parks, we're taking that money from Chanhassen Hills, Lake Susan Hills West. Developing areas where these folks are really thinking that that money's going to go into their neighborhood park. We're essentially, we continue to rob Peter to pay Paul and for many cities they recognize that and they say, okay 25% -...;tI -"" ....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~January 28, 1992 - Page 25 or 40% of the annual CIP program will come out of general tax dollars because that's really where the improvements are going. They're going b~ck into established park areas. At some point the give and take has got to quit. So if we go back to the tity Council for $30,000.00 or if our CIP next year is $150,000.00 .and we feel $50,000.00 of that should be out of general tax revenues, we need to formulate why we think that is the case and take that came back to the City Council. That will again bolster our effectiveness of our capital improvement bank account in that we don't continually drain it back down to the bottom dollar each year. Hopefully then we can build then upon that. Schroers: Would staff be interested in developing that as an agenda item? Hoffman: Certainly. Schroers: Just bring it up for a vote and let's get it done. Hoffman: Just completed a random survey and obviously cities which are essentially developed, they don't get any money from building permit fees so about 100% or 95% of their CIP each year comes out of general tax dollars. The farther you get out into the suburbs, it's more of an even split .or slightly lower amount coming out of the general budget compared to fees but we are an exception in that we fund 100% out of fees which I did not find in any other municipality to date. Lack of park property west of ~Lake Minnewashta again should be a continuing goal. We have $150,000.00 set aside. That can start the acquisition there. It certainly isn't going to complete it. Something more in line of $250,000.00 or $300,000.00 will complete the acquisition over there. That is if, we may need to identify what the goal is. 10 acres? I think 10 acres is minimal for what needs to be accomplished west of Lake Minnewashta. Land values over there are escalating. We have initiated discussions with 3 out of the 4 land owners that own the big blocks of parcels which are left there. All 3 have shown an interest in negotiating with the city for acquisition of their land. They're also in discussion with developers at the present time as well so it's who gives me a better deal. Will the City work with me better than the developer. One of the particular land owners was very turned off by one of the developers which approached that property owner to purchase his land. So that's a benefit for the city. City Center expansion. In this project we need to continue to work with the HRA. We need to continue to lobby with the City Council members and the HRA so they don't lose sight of what City Center Park means to this city and just take that one ballfield away and say well, we've really done something great here. We've got central park. So we lost a ballfield and City Center Park. That's not a big deal. Many of your Councilmembers ~it on the HRA so it's important to keep those lines of communication open as well. Proper. communications with residents. We continue to take a look. Last year was the first year we published the CIP for resident, for citizen input and citizen knowledge. That will be published again in the spring brochure which is going out in the near future. Being creative in what we do with developments is again, Larry's idea about trading totlots for trails. We need to stand fast. We need to investigate our ordinances to our best benefit when these ~developers come in for what we can acquire. We certainly want to hang onto our park fees wherever we can but we want to acquire trail easements, wetland corridors, outlots, those types of things as well. Fund for Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 26 ....""I development of public land is one of the again, one of the agencies which Larry has talked about in the past. Just keeping our eyes open to LAWCON funding, those types of things is always very important. Schroers: I have to make a correction there. It's called the Trust for Acquisition of Public Land I believe and somewhere in your records you should have information and the addresses of context for that organization. Maybe if we could just ask them for some kind of an information sheet or if they have some kind of criteria that you need to conform to in order to work with them. Whatever the case is, I think it would be worthwhile checking into. Hoffman: Okay. Is there anything that came into any of your minds? I mean we rely on the Park Commission is the agency which needs to take a look at th, future)of Chanhassen and not only, we can't accomplish that in 1992 we can certainly start to look at it and tb place the, initiate the plans and put those, get those back out into our other commissions and to our other agencies. In discussing the wildlife refuge with the Federal folks and with theDNR, these people have an entire comprehensive plan for that portion of Charihassen which we are very unfamiliar with. I mean these folks have acquisition plans and they're going to buy this parcel and this parcel and they're taking a look at funding and those types of things which we need to be informed and knowledgeable about. So they're planning for very long range and I feel we need to be doing the same thing. Schroers: Maybe we could on occasion invite them to come and share their ideas with us and give them the idea that we're interested in working together to accomplish hopefully our goals would be somewhat similar. You know if, I would think that if the DNR is on a larger scale but just like us looking for help and support anywhere they can get it. And if they feel there's a community that is willing to work along with them, maybe it could open up a couple of doors for us. -"'" Lash: It certainly would benefit us to know their acquisition plan. Hoffman: You look at the map, anything south of 212 they want to buy. It's interesting to note that you can look at a map and anything east of 169 goin~ to Shakopee, the National people, that's in their comprehensive plan to buy and the other block between 169 and Chaska, that~s in the State DNR comprehensive plan to purchase. Schroers: You're saying south of existing 212? Hoffman: You bet. Schroers: Not the proposed. Hoffman: The existing 212/169. The other interesting thing is the DNR's philosophy .1s they do not want, they just want to leave it natural and not develop it. The Federal agency is on the other extreme. They want to have trail heads and have trails running all the way from 494 down to Jordan so they have mixed feelings as to what they're going to accomplish but the river, the Minnesota River Valley is a resource which is probably the best ...,..;I kept secret. It's right up there with Bluff Creek. Now we discovered the Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~January 28, 1992 - Page 27 Bluff Creek but we have frontage on the Minnesota River Valley which very few people know about in this city and that may be one of our goals is to investigate the possibility of opening that up for some funding some recreational activities. Schroers: You know you'd almost have to believe that if we truly do have the only surviving native trout stream in the entire 7 county metro area, that that ought to generate some interest somewhere that someone might want to preserve that. I mean beyond just saying well we're going to limit development to 150 feet from the stream" I mean that's not going to save anything. The pipes will run all the way down to the river. Hoffman: The DNR wants to save it. They had a proposal to acquire the seminary as a regional headquarters for the DNR. Something we never knew about. Pemrick: Are they still going through with that bed and breakfast? Remember that was a big write up about it. Hoffman: Not to my knowledge. Lash: How can we keep better tabs on that so that we know when people are all of a sudden ear marking a plot of land in our town? ~Andrews: I think Larry's idea is a simple one but a great one which is to invite them in. Say we'd like to hear what you're doing. Tell us your secrets. I'm sure they'd be happy to tell us because I'm sure they're thinking the same thing we are which is geez, maybe we can get those park board people to throw sorne money into something we want to do anyway and save some money. I mean everybody's looking out for their budgets. Lash: I mean we've been talking for years about ear marking, trying to acquire property out by Lake Minnewashta. Maybe they already have a site all picked out and they're just waiting for something to happen and they're going to buy 180 acres or something and then we wouldn't have to worry about it anymore. Somebody else would have a nice big park out there so. It could certainly throw a whole new slant. Schroers: I think we'd be hard pressed to talk the DNR into a ballfield though. Andrews: Todd, the other idea I really liked was the survey, and none of us mentioned that but I think that was a real good one. Lash: I'd like us to talk about some different ways of doing that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 28 Andrews: I think the chance of , any bond going through is virtually zero. It's just not going to happen. J Koubsky: It may not go through but you can still think about it because that's the point I made. Andrews: I don't think it will go through but you've still got to put those figures in front of people. Koubsky: You have to be organized and identify things that you need. Hoffman: Compared to the school bonds, a bond for issue for $300,000.00 or $350,000.00 or $400,000.00 to develop Bandimere~ it's still significant but compared to the Minnetonka issue it's. Schroers: I think th't we have had some discussion in the past regarding that and we have, it seemed like there was a consensus of trying to organize a referendum that was likely to be more attainable and maybe through pha~es or something like that but not offeri~g a referendum that it's like we need $4 million or nothing. We're definitely getting nothing. Lash: Yeah, you have it broken down into project~. We need x amount for this project. This amount to do this and then let the people tell us which ones they're interested in seeing completed in the near future. Hoffman: The project which the Commission has been talking about, they may add up to a million dollars and Eden Prairie's been going after a $9-$10 million dollar referendum for the past 4 years. They've been unsuccessful but they're trying to buy property for a golf course and develop a golf course and add additional 250 acres to their park holdings and improve parks and build more ballfields so they've been fairly aggressive. They've been unsuccessful many of them but they're still out there banging at the door. -' Schroers: And you know I think that a key to a lot of this is to find an acceptable way to present our needs and our wants and desires rather than to try and force a referendum down someone's throat. I think presentation makes a big difference and I think some barn storming sessions and some creativeness in some planning, a little longer range planning might be something we want to spend some time at. If we ever can take advantage of, well actually now except for some, of these items get to be, these discussion type items get to be pretty lengthy but if we can work them into an otherwise light agenda, if we can just kind of work on an area at a time. You know pick out bonding referendum just for one topic of conversation and just expound on .i t a 11 ttle bit and see what we can come up with in the way of presenting something that might be a little easier to swallow. A little easier for the voters and the taxpayers to accept and to understand. Lash: The very first step is to go back to the survey. We've got to find out if people feel that'there's a need for anything that we feel we need the money to provide. If we do a survey and it comes back the majority of people feel like we have perfectly adequate facilities, then we know right away we might as well hold off on anything. I'm not saying that's what's ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,.... January 28, 1992 - Page 29 going to happen but we just need to know what the general feel is out there before we even think about pursuing anything. Schroers: You know I think that when we put this survey out, a lot of people don't know what's going on. They don't know what facilities are available. They know what's around within a 2 square block area of their house. They pay attention to-that but the rest of it they just kind of drive by and they don't realize that it's there. And I think to make this survey effective, we have to send out some information along with it listing what we have and how much. use it is receiving and why we think we need more of this or more of that. Why we need more ballfields. Or why we need more open space and you know, it's hard for people just to look at the survey and say well, how do I know if we need more ballfields. Sure I'm a fan. I'm a sports fan. Yeah, we need more ballfields but they don't know how many fields we have and how much they're being used. Lash: My idea and now we're getting into how we're going to do this survey. I don't know if we want to do that tonight but my idea was like in the spring brochure as an example. It's probably too late to do that now but that would list programs. That lists all the parks. It lists different facilities within the parks and people would have that and then that would be the survey. So they would have some reference to look at. Pemrick: I think we have to make sure if it's done, that we reach every ,...... household and it arr ives in that household so they won't miss it. And I don't know, personalized mailing would be extremely costly but if you get a letter with that Chanhassen leaf on it, you know you should-open that. I always do anyway. You know when there's special meetings in our area or whatever ordinances or whatever's being discussed. So I think to get a fair response, not just the people that are looking into athletic programs for their kids or something because I bet there's a lot of households maybe that don't even read that if they don't have any interest in participating. I could be wrong but I just think that would be real important to try darn hard to make sure that everybody sees a survey. Hoffman: Okay. We can do it in the newsletter. We could accomplish that in either the summer or the fall newsletter. That way it's already being mailed and we just incorporate it in there. Schroers: There we go. Good idea already. Andrews: Can we, I think this idea of Bandimere I think is kind of, Jan and I are kind of like, we've got to see some progress there. I just feel like that's Just, if we could come up with some kind of further developed concept plan like on an easel like we see for City Center, or the central park there, and have that ~t July 4th. You get such a huge turn out of people there. It's a real opportunity for us maybe to have our own booth. You know Park and Rec booth and let's talk about what we've got. Most of what we're trying to accomplish here is selling the community that they should wane to spend this extra money. It's a sales job. That's what it's going to take is a sales jbb. ,.... Hoffman: Heavy salesmen here. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 30 -' Andrews: Yep, so I think the July 4th to me is our biggest event of the year and I think maybe we should look at that. Lash: See and I have real mixed feelings about that because I feel like if there's a real need for it and people really want it, we shouldn't have to do a sales job. We shouldn't have to present articles and booths and all of this and just deluge people with propaganda about why they should vote for it and why they should support it. I don't want to have to sell something because then to me that seems like we're trying to force something on someone and convince them they need it when they don't feel the need. Andrews: I think all you'd be looking at is an awareness campaign. Lash: And education or present options and say, the education. If we can substantiate it with some facts. If we can say to people, wa have 30 acres or 35 that the vision was to create into a youth complex. These are the youth facilities that we have now. This is how they are used. They're used at capacity 5 out of 7 nights a week or however all the statistics break down and say with future projections of growth based at ...%, by the year 19..., these facilities will be maxed out. There will be no more space in .order to fill that need and we'd have to x amount of money to have this facility ready at that point in time. And then let people decide if they figure they want to. spend the money on it or not. It's an education. Layout the facts. Otherwise it looks like we're trying to sell something and if you have to sell something, then people aren't necessarily sure that they want it. ~ Andrews: Every developer, every project that comes here is presented in a sales package. I mean look at Central Park. Look at the park pavillion. Those are all. being sold to us. I feel like we're not focing anyb6dy to do anything but I think it's to the advantage of the park board and the city to make people aware. I guess there are some people who will buy on numbers, others that are going to buy on the pitch. Is it pretty? Does it make me feel good and I think we need to address both of those. And I think you're probably going to do both of those. You're going to have a sketch of what the park's probably going to look like and then you have to justify it because a lot of people are going to say so what. Why would I want to do this 6r why is there a need? But I think it's certainly an opportunity to communicate and I think we should, in my opinion I think we should take advantage of it. I'd rather do that than do ring toss. Schroers: I think you can say sell it and I think you can say education and I think you can put it all back to what we were talking about earlier was presentation. We just have to find a nice way of getting our information across so it's accurate. So it's easy to understand and so that people don't feel we're shoving it down their throat but also that it is something important enough that they should consider it. Put together a presentation package. Lash: We've got to have a lot of information to do that and that would have to come from staff. Koubsky: It has to start somewhere. ""." Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~January 28, 1992 - Page 31 Schroers: There are things that are already available that we could incorporate. Larger systems have a little map and on the map it lists the different facilities and then there's a dot by which campground has which facility or which beach has which facility or ~hich park has which whatever and we can layout something like that to show people what it is that we have and where.it is and then another. area proposed. What we would like to see. What we would like to have and ~hen have a comment section on the bottom. Get some feedback. Hoffman: That park map that you mentioned Larry, that was the only item cut out of the 1992 budget for administration was the $9,000.00 to develop a park map. I believe Chanhassen has an expansive enough park system where we need to have a park map. We receive calls on a weekly basis from people wondering about moving into the community. Wanting to know what our park system is like. Schroers: And that was Council cut that? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: You did have that previously in the mailings didn't you? I thought I've seen those things come out with our listings of the parks and. facil ties. !"'""Hoffman: Yeah, there is the square listing which is included in our :omprehensive plan which we can mail out, which we do. And we also.have a mock up of the city and the park locations which we mail out. Schroers: What you're talking about is a printed folder that can be handed out to people that they can open it up and say here's the city of Chanhassen. Here's the parks and over here is a guide to use annex you know. Hoffman: Right. And again it's awareness and we've talked about it in the past. The thing I'd like to leave with the Commission is that the Commission, or I need to get my direction from the Commission and we've talked about that. staff provides a lot of input but again, to be effective back to the public, you want to talk about trying to make a sell job or something like that. Generally if it's urgently generated from staff level and not from the commission, not from the volunteer resident board, it certainly isn't going to go anywhere so when you have ideas or each individual commission member has an idea about something they'd like to do, bring it back to the commission as a whole can formulate an action plan and give some direction to staff and we'll go from there. I've got a list. I can make goals off of that. Schroers: Al right. Thanks for clear i ng that up .for us Todd. Okay, there's no action required on that. PRIORITIZATION OF 1992 PARK ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM. ,...., ~offman: Chairman Schroers and Park Commissioners, I think if we go through here we can make this somewhat simplified in that we start down the Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 32 list. Wood park,signs for Bandimere is already underway. Just cross it out. Carver 8each play area refurbishment. That would be something which would be incorporated into our schedule. Carver Beach playground. The park sign is already underway. The other items need to be ordered and installed at some point. Chanhassen Estates mini-park. Park sign Is being manufactured. Chanhassen Hills Park. The park sign is being manufactured. Chanhassen Pond is another park sign there. City Center. Curry Farms. There's a park sign which is being done. City Center Park, the play equipment expansion. That 50% share which Jan talked about. The $10,000.00 which was put in there. I have just recently written a letter to Helen Merchent again inquiring back through the school district whether or not they want to put in the $10,000.00. Their 50% and I have not heard yea o. nay from them as of yet. -' Lash: Did you see the article? Hoffman: Dr. Kleff? Lash: Yes. About the cooperative effort because the city and the school. Hoffman: YOu bet. Made mention of that in the letter. Herman Field. Lake Ann. Lank Ann again can basically be put on hold. We don't need to discu,ss Lake Ann this evening simply, because we don't know the outcome of the building. If the building does go in, obviously the purchase of this equipment will fall into place. Lake Susan. We have a major operation there. The trail link to Chanhassen Hills. Meadow Green. Installation of play area expansion. Pheasant Hill Park. That project is all underway so"""" we do not have to worry about Pheasant Hill Park. Play area expansion, installation of trees. The back page, park rules signs have been ordered. I just took a call today from a person wondering what are the rules in the park. She lives adjacent to Chanhassen Pond Park. Was very happy to hear that we'd be placing park rules signs so then she'd have something... 'And then the other miscellaneous things in the back do not need to be addressed by the Commission. So essentially I've talked about, we do have some things backlogged. Installation of two backstops. One at Sunset Ridge and one at Curry Farms and the installation of play e~uipment at Sunset Ridge and South Lotus Lake. 8y the time we get around with spring duties and installation of all those things, we'll be into June already so we can start from mid-June and go from there. Which items you'd like to see addressed. Andrews: I'm ready. Schroe.s: Go ahead Jim. Andrews: This isn't specific to a park but I guess we talked a bit about repairs for safety and repairs for maintenance as always being a first priority. Beyond that 1 guess I look at the major projects, Lake Susan and Herman Field as, get those finished up. We talked at previous meetings about completing projects that we've started. Putting them behind us. I look at that as kind of following that philosophy,. ~hat's the only comments I had. -...-I Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 28, 1992 - Page 33 Lash: I think some of them are fairly obvious as We need to do that by spring or late in the fall. I made notes on are Carver Beach Park. I believe for. far as tree plantings. And the only two that that ballfield is used Hoffman: CAA? Lash: Yeah. So I think that needs to be either put in right away in the spring before that starts so we don't have construction going on at the same time as the scheduled games or else wait until that's over. It'd be nice to have it in right away so the kids who go with the players have the playground equipm~nt to play on. And then the same thing for City Center, although you can't put that in before school's out or you'll have a mess so that I think we'd be better off just waiting and getting that in and make sure it's in by September when school starts but just wait until after the CAA season is over. That's my comments. Koubsky: The only thing I have is, anything that we have started we should probably finish first. Like Lake Susan, Herman Field, Sunset Ridge which is in the open there. But beyond that. Schroers: I'm thinking along those same lines. The City Center Park play area equipment expansion and new basketball standards. That certainly seems like something that's real attainable. ~Hoffman: That installation would be contracted as well. So once we hear we get the go ahead from the school district, which is somewhat difficult as we have seen in the past, we'll take it from there. Lash: I guess my comments would apply also to Rice Marsh Lake. I hate to have that all messed up during the peak season. So either get it done before it starts...and I did have a comment from a resident from down there about how awful the play equipment is or lack of it. Schroers: Are we prioritizing as in number 1,2, 3? Is that how you want to do it or just our general comments and then see how they fit into the work plan of the City? Hoffman: Yeah, you can prioritize 1, 2, 3, 4. When I write up a work memo down to Dale, he'll follow just about essentially what we prioritize for. Lake Susan and Herman Field are right at the top. Trying to get in Rice Marsh Lake. We've received a lot of comments on much more than Carver Beach playground so if there's one we can get done prior to CAA, that would be the one we'd like to see done. The things that we've carried over are obviously going to take place first. Tree plantings have traditionally waited until fall because we simply cannot, we don't have that time in the spring with all the other things going on. So from your comments tonight, I believe can successfully go ahead and create that order for Dale. Schroers: Very good. Any other comments? Suggestions? ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 34 J COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS; Schroers: Do we have anything? . Andrews: I don't have a presentation. Just an item here. It seems that we've deferred the trail discussion until the next meeting and several other similar items. Do we need to consider perhaps a two meeting month so we can get done a little earlier next month? Just as a question to the Commission. Schroers: I think that we have had that in the past and I think it depends a lot on scheduling, what other things are going on during the upcoming month and where we could possibly fit in. Andrews: I just sort of feel, this is nothing more than kind of a gut reaction. Some of these priorities we talked about today, the trails and the paths or whatever, prioritizing or trying to develop some of these long range projects. You know su~vey, these things are going to take more than the usual amount of discussion time that we normally allowed it and for me, I would prefer two shortey meetings rather than going until 10:30-11:00 at night. I don't mind staying until 11:00 if that's what everyone else wants to do but if I had a preference, I would rather meet more often. Schroers: I guess that I like that but what I would say is then not to have two general meetings. Have our one general meeting and agenda and then focus one particular topic and go to work on it. If we're going to talk about the trails, we're going to talk about trails. If we're going to ....."I talk about possible funding resources, then we're going to talk about that. Kind of narrow it down so we can really go to work on something because if we have two short agendas, we're going to accomplish about what we do in one big one. Andrews: I agree with that exactly. That's exactly what I would want to see done. Lash: And we don't want to make it February though. Todd already said we have Saturday the 29th slated as meeting with Council. Hoffman: For staff and Council. Lash: Oh it's not us. Oh, okay. That's not bad then because I thought well then we'd be getting into three. Hoffman: That would be my suggestion that we do a work session and possibly get out of the environment of the City Council chambers. Hold it at the fire station or something of that nature. Do it on an evening or Saturday morning type of atmosphere and label it a work session more than a meeting. Get some opening discussions and then wrap it up with some definitive action and direction. Schroers: And set it up with a timeframe. Say that we are going to have a meeting, if it's in the evening, from 7:00 until 8:30. We've got an hour and a half to get something done; ....",., Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,.... January 28, 1992 - Page 35 pemrick: I would agree with that, or a Saturday morning. Schroers: Yeah, if it's from 8:30 to 10:30 Saturday morning. Whatever it is. Pemrick: When you're fresh. I mean these topics we've gone over and over and over and maybe being fresh in the morning we come at it a little better too. schroers: I wake up at noon usually. pemrick: We'll bring you coffee. You need a 3 year old in your house. Koubsky: I would prefer night meetings to Saturday. Schroers: I would too actually. Evenings. I would prefer a weekday evening rather than the weekend for this sort of thing. Lash: But even if we just scheduled it on the second Tuesday. We all have already made a commitment to Tuesdays so we are, I'm assuming we all have so we rarely schedule things for Tuesdays. Hoffman: Okay. ~Andrews: I think we can definitely eat up an hour and a half on the trails. Schroers: Oh yeah. Hoffman: Great. We'll schedule it for, whatever it is, the second Tuesday in February. Lash: Are we going to designate what the topic is going to be? Hoffman: Trails? 5 year capital improvement program? Lash: I would rather it be the survey personally. If that's something that needs to go out in the spring or summer. It'~ something we need to start working on. Andrews: Well maybe that's better because trails you may have public input that we'd want to receive. Pemrick: Under the comment section. Andrews: Yeah. That survey's going to take time too. \ Koubsky: I think a survey's important. Lash: That may take more than one work session even. We'll have to come up with some questions. ,..... Hoffman~ Format. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 36 .....", Andrews: Why don't we all make a commitment to ourselves to bring in OUT ideas and b~ ready to go. Let's not show up at the meeting and say well, what do we want to do. Hoffman: Okay. Super. Lash: Are you setting it for the, what is it? Andrews: Second Tuesday. Koubsky: February 11th. 7:00 to 8:30? 7:30 to 9:00? Andrews: 7:30 to 9:00. I think an hour and a half is sufficient. Schroers: I can arrange my schedule. Whatever works out for you guys. Andrews: Let's go 7:30 to 9:00. I think that cuts it off and still leaves a little relaxation and fun time. Erickson: And that's going to be for survey questions? Schroers: To develop a survey. Well I guess that's something we'll probably talk about at that time but we are not looking at hiring a consultant. Hoffman: I believe we can handle this in-house. I'll provide you with an example of the last one. -' Andrews: Mail that out earlier before that so we have a chance to see it. Hoffman: And garner up some information. I'll grab ~ hold of an example of the Shorewood questions which are going out and some other questions around. Schroers: Yeah, we can ask questions. I think that's the I think the hard part is going to be providing information can intelligently andinfoTmatively answer the questions. going to be the challenge. easy part of it. so that.people I think that's Hoffman: Questionnaires are, it's a difficult line to walk. We'll talk about.it but if you provide too much propaganda along with your questionnaire, you shouldn't be doing that either. It's a turn off. Schroers: I guess that's what we'll figure out at that point. Erickson: Are we going to meet here for that? Hoffman: Probably meet at \the f ir-e station. Lash: Are you thinking of sending us? Hoffman: Yep, you'll get a packet. An agenda so you'll have that information out. Just expect your packet just at the normal time. --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting ""January 28, 1992 - Page 37 ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: A. LAKE ANN PARK UTILITIES AND PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER UPDATE. Hoffman: Item a is to discuss briefly the utilities which went in at L~ke Ann Park. As you've driven by you've seen the big...trenches. The wire is down to the beach location. They've got the 3 1/2 inch forcemain sewer line over to a lift station in Greenwood Shores. B & D will come in and do restoration work and install the lift pumps and all those types of things in the spring. Picnic/recreation shelter was taken back. Approval for ' readvertising for bids for the City Council at their first meeting in January. Those advertisement for bids are going out this coming week in the Villager and the construction bulletin. We open bids the third week' in February and hold my breath for a reasonable bid. The target zone right now is tha tit needs to be be 1 ow 240 in or der, for it to be approved by the City Council. Last bids came in at $280,000.00. Lash: But there's been alterations right? Hoffman: Correct. There weYe some minor alterations in an attempt to bring the costs, down and hopefully this bidding climate now in the spring is much better than it was last fall. Our economy is somewhat weak. Hopefully we have a better bidding climate as well as people will be hungry for work. If all things work out right. The schedule is there. I"'"""Unfortunately this WQuld put a completion date right at the end of the beach season so we would have a nice beautiful, brand new building to close down the beach. Lash: Maybe we need that big Labor Day, our first annual Labor Day celebration. Have Oktoberfest there. B. PENDING SUBDIVISION REVIEWS: Hoffman: Item 10Cb) is of interest, particular interest to the Commission. The first, these are just information on pending subdivision reviews. These develop~rs have been in. Talked to the Planning staff. Discussed park issues. Trail issues. Easement issues with staff. Preliminarily bringing them to you this evening for some discussion. Especially on the ~luff Creek site. These folks are real tentative. If the Commission is going to want some park property, they want to know that so they can try to incorporate that into their plan. Or if we want to take fees, that sort of thing. This really brings about, the entire next area of development. This quadrant 'of the city was developed with the business park, Lake Susan Park and then Lake Susan Hills West and Chanhassen Hills back on the map. So that section has been developed. The next one which is coming in is this entire ring... Essentially with agricultural fields or a large lot residential and now... Chan Business Park was recently reviewed by the Commission and that's coming around. The Bluff Creek site which we're discussing this evening is this particular location. As you'll notice, I don't know if the topo shows through on the map...it goes from very high ground on this end, breaks about here and drops essentially right on top of ,""creek so it's a very odd site in that there is a lot of gradi ng. .. That's a cancern of the developers...very little flat, high ground... Hans Hagen Homes is the other one which is in for development. Again it's single Pal.k and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 38 ...."I family residential 1n this entire area. Initial discussions have centered around flag lot as being a 7 acre park. It's very wooded down in this section with a hill coming up... It does have some flat area right in this area... The other issue which needs to be addressed here is the trail corridor coming down to this other segment. You have a section of it right on the Bluff Creek site. We also want to obtain a connection from the Hans Hagen site down to this trail and by-pass...get onto the Bluff Creek trail. And the Comprehensive Trail plan does identify trail segments around this entire piece so as these subdivisions touch the adjoining roads, we need to take a look at securing the necessary easements as well there to provide for tho~e trails in the future. Hans Hagen was in with the Planning Director. Their initial development plan, site plan. It's not going to fly so they're back out for redeveloping their site plan. Bluff Creek, I~d 11 ke to take a further look at. To get your directions.' Take a look at your site map so you know where this is. The service area of Power Hill Park does touch this site and a potential service area of the Hans Hagen park would service this site. It's approximately 75 homes which is a difficult number. It's on the fringe of if you had a 125 homes, I feel the Commission would feel a great need to incorporate some type of active park site within that development. If it was 50 homes, we could certainly get by without it. 75 homes on a site which is very small, we can take about 3 acres. We have the obligation or the right to take about 3 acres of park pro~erty. If we take 3 acres of park property here and create another small neighborhood p~rk that we need to go out and maintain, and is it in the best inter~st of the city to forego the park fee in this instance? As you can see, this is about the break line of the bluff back up in here. They just have to just continue the lqts down in this area, in this remaining...Bluff creek when they e~compass that trail. That portion of the trail'and this section may indeed just be a huge outlot. The thing that we continually need to protect is naturally a developer comes in and they want to give you that outlot for park credit. The City ordinance says that that's not acceptable. Anything below the high water mark just is not, cannot be calculated i~to park credits so you have a battle right off the bat. If the Commission felt that we needed to take 3 acres of this high ground, you can bet they're going to be before you pleading their case on why they would riot like to see that happen. So. again so I can get back to the people working on this particular site, this evening I'd like to at least get your feelings on what you think on parkland and access to recreational facilities as it deals with the Bluff Creek site. --' Pemrick: What are they coming as the lot sizes here with 75 homes? Hoffman: Can you pick it up on there? Pemrick: I can't. I have a hard time reading these things. Lash: It looks like they're 16,000. Andrews: About a third of an acre roughly. Hoffman: Yeah, 15 to 20. Most of them are in right around 15. Lash: How many sites are there in the Hagen? .....I Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~January 28, 1992 - Page 39 Hoffman: Hans Hagen? Lash: Yes. Hoffman: 140. 157. Something of that nature. 150 for a ballpark number. pemrick: Is that the same again? About a third of an acre. Hoffman: In that site, no. They'd be about 6 doubles so about 6 acres. That flag lot up there is just over 7 and in our initial conversations, it would be basically a wash. They would be willing to give 7 acres for the dedication. pemrick: I'm just thinking with that small lot, the 75 homes, I think they should have a park. Lash: I do too. Pemrick: I don't think they should borrow from someone else because that's really cramped. Lash: How far would it be? See I would not consider Power Hill to be acceptable because if this area is now going to be developed with homes and businesses, Audubon is going to be a substantial enough road that I ,......wouldn't be comfortable with children having to cross Audubon. In an uncontrolled intersection there wouldn't be any intersection there. To get to Power Hill. How far would' it be from Bluff Creek if we had a sizeable park in the Hagen site, how far would it be if there was a fairly easily accessible trail between the two neighborhoods. Hoffman: It would be within the half miie but it would certainly not be an after school walk every day to go over to the neighborhood park. It would be more of a special trip type of operation. Obviously there is going to be considerable open space on this site simply because of the outlot that's going to be there so the developer has to, site constrictions says they have to put all their houses on this end and leave this end open. So there are but they have to buy the entire piece. So then we want to take 3 acres from them. We need to identify and obviously if we want an open field it's got to be up on the high portion. Andrews: All the prime land. Hoffman: Yep. As all developers say, it's the prime land. It's going to sell the best for them and you're going to take 3 acres. Essentially we're going to lose about $30,000.00 in park fees 'to buy that 3 acres or in excess of that and we're going to need to identify a location where we'd like to see that park and get back to them. Prior to redesigning their site plan, they'd certainly want to come in before the Commission officially on February 28th to present their case in that yegard and then it would take action from the Commission to proceed further. ,....,Lash: could you point out the outlot again? Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 40 Hoffman: The low lying area would all be in this point. That's essentially the high water mark down would just be grass, open area' down to the Bluff Creek watershed. Again each neighborhood and city has a focal point. Whether it be a neighborhood park or a school or grassy open area ar big waads. Kids fram thisneighbarh6ad are gaing to. go dawn in that outlet and play and if that fills the recreatienal requirements ef that neighbarheed, and we benefit by taking $40,000.00 in park fees, that's great. If we feel it nct, then we need to. take a leek at acquiring addi tio.nal land. ....." Schreers: What I weuld like to. see here is a mere clear everview ef this prapesed site and haw it fits into. the area araund. I mean it'a difficult when yeu're leoking at these itty bitty squares and things here to. get a real gaad feeling ef what's areund. Legistically it's kind ef hard. . I'd like to. knew right exactly where Sunset Ridge Park and Pewer Hill Park and stuff fit in prapartion to. this and it seems to. me this might be an cppertunity to. capitalize en generating seme fees. Seme funds that we ceuld put to. use in ather places. It may be a gaed eppartunity to. acquire seme mcney rather than preperty but I just dan't have a geod feeling when I leek at this as to. haw it all fits in. Andrews: I've got to. make one ccmment and that is, if 75 hemes go in there with no. park, I can guarante. yeu there will be samebady up here saying we don't have anyplace fer eur kids to. go. and play. Yeu knew yeu're geing to. hear that. But I dan't think we need 3 acres either. I guess I feel we ceuld meet the needs h~re with maybe something cleser to a half er even an acre which is a tetlat and a heop to. sheet baskets er samething like that. ~- Lash: At\least ycu have an epen area. Throw in seme playgreund equipment. They can go. there and fly a kite. They can sheat seme heeps er they can have just a quicky baseball. When'yeu have just a third acre let, yeu can't play anything an a third acre latand even with the high water line back here, that's somebcdy else~s preperty. Even if half ef them think it's fine fer the kids to. go. back there and play and the ether half den't have kids or whatever and they dcn't.want the kids there, it's marshy half the year and the grass gets real tall. They can't go. back there and plaYa game ef, ball er anything. So. ~f we ceuld pick a site that is high eneugh so. we ceuld develap .it and it weuld fill eur needs but it weuld be mare ene, ef the undesireable lots. Say ene that backs up to. Audubcn. Maybe that's enethat weuldn't be as desireable fer them to. develap ar it wauld be ane ef the last enes fer them to. develep anyway. Take ene that's a peculiar shape like say 1 and 3 even. If yeuput two. ef them tagether, yeu'd have almest a square but if yeu leek at them beth individually, they're beth kind af pie shaped. That's kind af an edd shape fer a let to. try and build a heuse en and it backs up to. Auduben. So. maybe these are two. disadvantages that we cauld use in eur favar. Althaugh they're at the end ef a cul-de-sac which is nice fer peeple, it'd really be nice fer a park. Schraers: It's pessible that if yau gaj if yeu de semething like yeu're suggesting that yeu ceuld cash eut en a deal. Yeu ceuld use 1 acre ef praperty. callect fees fer the ether 2 acres and use those fees to. purchase the equipment to. put en that preperty and have a wash. ...", Park and Rec Commission Meeting "...,January 28, 1992 - Page 41 Koubsky: Todd, do we know what Chan Business Center is doing? This abuts there? I mean like your park location would abut the Chan Business Center. We have trails that were proposed there. Hoffman: Chan Business Park has the large outlot as well which runs north and south over the creek area. Right where the trail will go through. It's essentially a commercial/industrial center with there's a 100 foot buffer zone on the south side of their property which is on the north side of the Bluff Creek site. And there's a potential trail to run east and west on that upper site. Koubsky: 50 that might be a good place to abut a park would be on a 100 foot easement. Hoffman: Correct. Lash: And that also would make it more undesireable for someone abutting the business. Schroers: This is going to come up in front of us again I presume. Hoffman: Correct. Schroers: Can we ask that next time, is it possible to fit this into a ~better overlay of the area so we can see how things are laid out a little bit better than this? Hoffman: Okay. I simply brought this to you just as a pending subdivision just so you can get some idea. The site plan does show it hopefully in some context to Hans Hagen and Chan Business Center, the Bluff Creek site and then it also shows Power Hill Park and Outlot G. Just some words on, recently we've been looking at subdivisions and we're land grabbing and that's good. Vacant land is the first and irreplaceable to a park. The money can come later but if we forego park fees on this site, we forego park fees on Hans Hagen, there's going to be a year down the line where we're not going to have a capital improvement program simply because we have no revenues coming in. ...or we take a minimal amount of the revenues, we're going to be left holding the bag. Schroers: Well that's exactly what I was saying with this density. This looks like a reasonable opportunity to collect some dedication fees and still be able to provide something adequate for the community. Not something that's oory adequate but something that would be acceptable. Hoffman: It's a real tricky balance. We don't want to end up with another Pheasant Hill where we spend $170,000.00 to try and meet their needs. But park service areas were set up for a reason and that's to accomplish what is a comprehensive park plan and what is identified as meeting the needs. 50 again, I have mixed direction to give to the developer. I'll take that to those folks and we'll bring it before the Commission again in February. ~Lash: You know another option that they may be more inclined to accept would be, a couple of the lots that are right by the high water level and then we'd end up with a. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 42 Koubsky: A hill. ...-I Lash: Well . Hoffman: If you want a play area, we need to take something on the easterly third or easterly half. Koubsky: I guess I think each area needs some sort of playground. It may be an acre. I don't think we need 3 acres or whatever but I think they're far enough away from existing pafkland. They've got roads and a r*ilroad track there. They each need sOme sort of area. Lash: I think we need to look at each one individually. At the physical characteristics and this one has several I think. You're looking at Audubon. You look at the railroad track. You look at the fact that there's a business center abutting it. It's kind of secluded as it is right now. Koubsky: Because we'll also have Sunset Ridge Court there and Timberwood. We'll have the school going north of it but they have bigger lots but they don't have playground facilities. Schroers: 00 you have what you need on item (b) now Todd? Lash: What is the minimum that, I know that there was sort of some kind of a policy established at one time about the minimum that we would take for a neighborhood park. Just so staff didn't have to go out and maintain 50,000 ....." half acre parks allover town. Schroers: It was 5 acres originally. Lash: Now we're talking about 1 acre. Hoffman: One acre is half of the size of Carver Beach playground. Schroers: You can't really do much more than a totlot. What else could you do besides a totlot. If you put in a totlot, what else do you put in there? Pemrick: Volleyball. Koubsky: Some open area. Schroers: Yeah~ we could put in volleyball. Picnic table. Hoffman: You're not gaining that much more open area than a backyard in this area. That's the word of caution. We don't want to create, you know 40 more subdivisions of this nature come into the city, do we want 40 one acre parks within our city? Schr6ers: No, I think we're better off looking at trail easements and connect them to a park that's more substantial that's going to serve the area rather than give each little nook it's cranny. Definitely. .."", Park and Rec Commission Meeting "..., January 28, 1992 - Page 43 Hoffman: It's an issue which needs to be addressed because of the accessibility and that type of thing. sluff Creek corridor would provide access, safe access to the Hans Hagen site. We could negotiate with that site and acquire land closer to this site. Closer to this end of the corridor. Open space and that trail, it's not a traditional play structure which we identify with but it does provide recreational activity that piece of it. Schroers: Well we did want some diversity in our parks. We don't want them all to be the same thing. I guess there's nothing wrong with just having a green space and an open area and it doesn't have to be overly developed. It can just be maybe maintained to a point where people can create their own type of fun there. I mean keep the noxious weeds down. Do some mowing and that sort of thing and just give them space so they can do whatever they want to do. Pemrick: How about requiring larger lot sizes? Hoffman: Back to the Planning Commission. pemrick: What do they say? Hoffman: They'll go through that and they have the ordinances set... " .,..... Er ickson: Todd, how far did you say that this Bluff Creek is from the Hans Hagen? That proposed 7 acre park. Hoffman: The walk from the Bluff Creek site would be just over a quarter mile. It's within the half mile service area. You could go north through the CGC site underneath the railroad tracks. Take an immediate left there and go about half a block and you're at the Hans Hagen site. Their original proposal put an on street trail through a portion and then you cross the ravine and you're up into the park area. Erickson: You say it'd be about a quarter mile? Hoffman: Yes, just over a quarter mile. Schroers: I don't think that's an unreasonable distance to get to the park. I mean at some point in time you have to take responsibility for yourself. If you feel that your children are too small to go that quarter of a mile by the~selves but you think they ought to go there, then you've got to take them there. I mean you can't dump a park on everybody's doorstep where everybody can look out their .wi ndow. Erickson: Plus it's not really a quarter mile across Audubon or something like that. Hoffman: It may not happen. The Bluff Creek site may develop fully in 4 years and Hans Hagen may be 10 years down the line so we need t6 deal with that issue. It's something when you're in a developing city, you just """can't control. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 44 ....." Lash: If that's the route we decide to take, let's make sure ~e have some kind of an access site that's not goi~g between two lots through to the Hans Hagen area to get to the park for these other people. Schroers: Our service area was set up to be a half mile wasn't it? Hoffman: Yep. This will be within the half mile as Power Hill will be on the fringe district. I'll lay that out for you. schroers: I think that's something we can work with. Berg: Plus if you build close enough on that end, on the other side, the other people from Hans Hagen could use the school if it's built too. They'd have access to the facilities there, if it was built there. Hoffman: Okay. Anythi ng else? ' Lash: 00 we need a motion on this thing? Hoffman: No. Schroers: Okay, we beat item (b) to death. Quite an indoctrination for these guys. Berg: This is ~6rmal right? Schroers: No. sometimes we bleed a little more. ....", c. STATUS REPORT. SKATING RINKS. Ruegemer: Just to give you a real brief, tell you what's happening with the skating rinks in Chanhassen. We did have a mid-winter warm spell right after the first of the year where it did get really nice out. Typically unseasonable for January but it did do the skating rinks very much good. Basically what it did do is we had to close down the rinks because they were getting very slushy and very dangerous to skate on. Virtually it did create a...almost we had to start pver again. So what we really did hope for was to get some colder weather in, as we did and park maintenance crews did shave and get the ice back to where it was functional again. We opened up back again January 25th and we have been open since that time. Hopefully with weather cooperating that we can, this week is going to be warm again the way it sounds. Up to 40. 38 tomorrow and 40 by the end of the week so hopefully we can squeeze through this week and get to where our target date of the 16th of February, weather permitting. Lash: How do you set that target date? Ruegemer: It's Just kind of an approximation. Lash: It'd be nice if you were going to have an approximation, to have it after energy break. Ruegemer: I think that's the middle of February too. .....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 28, 1992 - Page 45 Lash: Yeah but I mean if it's still cold enough. Ruegemer: Oh, if it's still cold enough we continue, you bet. Hoffman: It's just published so people get an idea and it's based on the past 15 years of when the rinks have closed. Ruegemer: Just for an example, last year the rinks were closed February 3rd ~o it just depends really on the weather. The year before was in March I think. It really just, the ~eather fluctuates so much, it's...so it will just depend on the weather. If it's cold, then we'll continue to go. It's just a target date and... PROGRAM REPORT. CHRISTMAS TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY. Ruegemer: With the Christmas Tre~ lighting ceremony, that was back in December. December 9th exactly. This little annual event is really starting to grow into a nice community celebration. We did have quite a few more people that came out to witness the tree lighting ceremony t.his year. Mayor Chmiel did flip the switch again this year to set off the annual tree, official season which was a real nice way. The Ch~ska choir, .High School choir came up to sing caroles and we had hot apple cider and cookies and Sant.a Claus was t.here. It appeared't.hat everybody very much enjoyed themselves and hopefully we can just continue to still keep ,...,Chanhassen kind of the small t.own atmosphere. I think people really like that. That's why they chose to live out here. That's what we're going to try and preserve t.hat at.mosphere and cont.inue t.o grow upon civic events like this. We did have a very good turn out so hopefully we can add to that. next. year. Hoffman: That's a real tree this time. Lash: I have a question on your life size figurine. Is it going to be cemented into the ground? Ruegemer: Just kind of an idea t.hat was thrown out. I think it.'d be nice to, suYe it's nice to have a tree decorated but it's kind of a plain Jane kind of sitt.ing in t.he middle. That's my opinion but just t.o add something more to it I think would be very nice. Lash: You don't think somebody will st.eal it? Hoffman: Just like the cows at the flea market. They steal those life size cows all t.he time. Lash: The ot.hert.hing, just. a word of caution that. you need t.o be kind of careful with. Those kinds of things because som~ people don't. Hoffman: Don't celebTate the.season. Lash: Right, don't appreciate. ~ Andrews: Watch out for the ACLU. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 46 ..." Hoffman: You betcha. Holiday lighting ceremuny. E. AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT (ADA). Hoffman: Item (e), hopefully you've read it. I'm not going to go real in depth. It received considerable news coverage both in newspaper, radio. It's something you cannot shrug off. It's unfortunate we're in this timeframe SO we don't have the appropriate attitude to go ahead and dis6~ss this but the Americans with Disabilities Act is something which as of 2 days ag~ is now in place. Every action which we take, it's our responsibility to insure that not only parks bui park facilities, our recreational programs and employment opportunities are open to all persons. We're taking that very seriously. We have a senior trip going down to the ice castle. The first question we received was, can a person in a wheelch~ir? My husband's in a wheelchair. Can he go along? The bus which we had rented, which Judy Colby, the Senior Coordinator had rented did not. It's just a matter of economics but you can no longer operate in that fashion. It's law that you need to accommodate that person. It's a public program and we'll find accommodations to take that person along. That's just one ramification. Access to parks. Access to park buildings. Playgrounds. Our playgrounds. Transfer points as it shows in that brochure in there. The surfacing is a problem but they haven't written, we don't have to put in this rubber mat into everyone of our pea gravel surfaced areas but we need to make them reasonably accessible. So again as we go through our future discussion, we need to be aware of it. Lash: Will this include all of the things that we have on line for the --" upcoming year already and budgeted? Hoffman: Correct.. Lash: Because that's going to have a big impact. If we had $10,000.00 budgeted, we could spend it .11 just in surface material or pivot points and get nothing. ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION. Schroers: Okay, thanks Todd. Is there anythin~ else of concern that we wish to dis6uss in the Adminstrative Section? Hoffman: Just a couple of short points. I'll finish before 10:30. I need to poll the commissioners as of your interest in a golf course discussion which is being held in the Counc! 1 Chambers 0.0 February 5th. That's a Wednesday evening at 6:30. Members of the Planning Commission, Councilman Workman and some other folks that are interested in a muncipal golf course within the city of Chanhassen will be meeting. Jerry will be attending. I start class again that evening. Please let me know if you plan to attend simply by giving me a phone call so I can let the coordinator, Joan Ahrens from the Planning Commission. So she knows who to expect. Schroers: I have a question. Is this, they're forming a study group or commission? ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~January 28, 1992 - Page 47 Hoffman: There's a discussion taking place that evening. There's not a formalized work committee for the golf course study but members of the Planning Commission are interested, Councilman Workman and some other people. Andrews: Is this intended to be those in favor only? Hoffman: No. Koubsky: There's been an informal since it's been discussed once. Schroers: So this is just a discussion of interested parties, Hoffman: Okay. Second item is the Pheasant Hills. Construction of pheasant Hi Ils Par k is movi ng alon'g. I have an item of concer n which I'd like to address with the Commission. It has to do with accessibility. It also has to do with common sense as well. This entire northerly area of the park has been selectively cleared to accommodate these facilities. This was cleared off for the open playfield. The mature trees around the tennis court would remain. This area was cleared out for the eventual development of those as was the area for the play structure. The problem being, as you recall those discussions, the neighbors did not want parking access off of Wood Duck Lane to the north. So parking was included in the master 'plan down here. The construction of this parking lot would be very ~expensive. It would necessitate the clearing of an extensive area of trees down in this location. If we went ahead and constructed that parking lot, in all honesty I feel it's going to past by for on street parking at Wood Duck Lane. If these people, if they want to go play tennis or to the ballfield, they're going to drive up to Wood Duck Lane, park on street and walk the quarter block down that trail to those facilities. Human nature tells us time and time again that they're not going to park in that parking lot and walk that long trail up to the play area or the tennis court when they can simply park on stieet at Wood Duck Lane. It has ramifications with the accessibility as well. We need to provide the best access possible to park facilities under the ADA but then again you could run into, we know where the neighborhood is. They would not like to see it. In fact if on street parking started in that area, I wouldn't be surprised to have them in here asking for no parking signs on the street. It's an issue which is important. Schroers: If I recall that Todd, theirmain~concern was that we were going to try to build a parking lot there. Okay. I guess I don't feel that we would be going back on our word to allow on street parking. Hoffman: On street parking, it will occur and we'll receive comment back on it. So then negative comment back from it. So the development plan for that site, before we bought it was to bring a road. That's a road outlot right here so there would have been a public street developed right here with lots starting right here. So the adjoining residents have gone from something that could have been negative to a park site. But again the burden's back on us to formulate equal access and reasonable access to """' those par k facHi ties. If they're on the norther ly side of the par k, people are going to park on Wood Duck Lane. 4 or 5 cars parked there and Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 48 ....,I people begin to become agitated 'about that. They're going to be back before the park board to talk about it. Andrews: I think you're right that if we d6n't consider changing the plan to provide off street parking on the north section, it's going to happen. I know given a choice, if I had a choice in my neighborhood of people parking in front of my house or driving by my house and parking in a parking lot 20 yards away, I'd much rather have them park in a lot. Schroers: If you'd been here about 3 years ago you'd know about those parking lot progTams. Andrews: I'm not saying that they're in favor of any cars. I know they're going to be against having cars there. That's a given but if the choice is, you know we know you're against it but they're going to be there anyway and which would you rather have. In front of your house or in a lot, I think most of them would say I'd rather have them in ~ lot. Lash: So are you saying to move the parking lot from the south side to the north side? Hoffman: To study that, yes. I made initial contacts back with Matk Koegler to take a look at the master plan. If it's the choice of the Commission to take a look at this in February, Mark would be prepared to come back before the Commission to discuss his feelings on the location. Current location of the parking lot and ramifications of moving it up to the north. We know the public opposition but again it falls back, it's our burden to develop these sites in the best possible manner. 5 years down the line if a parking lot goes in there, hopefully the cry is all quieted down and now you have a successful park plan. That's my concern. I needed to bring it back to the Commission for your thoughts. . -' Lash: Is there an option of having the parking lot more within the park site but the access from Lake Lucy Road? Hoffman: There's that option. We would continue to knock down mature trees in it's path as we drive the parking lot into the park. Andrews: That entrance is really going to need a lot of fill there. A lot of leveling. I don't think you're going to improve the situation at all by considering moving it further to the north without going all the way to the north, Lash: Well parking on Wood Duck Lane would be perfectly accessible to people, why don't we just leave the possibility of putting in a parking lot if we decide that that's necessary. Communicate that to the residents. They didn't want a parking lot to start with as I recall and if they had to have one, then they wanted it off of Lake Lucy Road, right? Schroers: And we pretty much told them that's what we would do. Lash: Right. And that~s the way it is. So what if we were to say to them, okay. We can't. It's not working out to put it off of Lake Lucy .....I Road. What we're goi'ng to do is designate this area and not develop it for Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,...... JanuarY 28, 1992 - Page 49 now using Wood Duck Or Lake Lucy Road Or wherever people want to park. That's what they want is those people to park on Lake Lucy Road. We'll just say we'll have on street parking like you asked and if we decide Or you decide that it's becoming a problem, then the only option for us is to put a parking lot off of Wood Duck and let it go at that. .See what happens. If people park on Wood Duck and they don't like it, then the only thing they have left open to them is a parking lot off of Wood Duck. Schroers: That would also be my recommendation. I think that that would be the easier sell. I tell you when you open up these parking lot issues, you've got a can of warms like you wouldn't believe. Andrews: I'm not saying that it's going to be popular. I know it's going to be not popular. Schroers: Yeah but it's going to be less than that when we told them that if it wasn't going to happen and then we come back and dump it on them. That's going to be really bad. Lash: I mean if we say to them, hey. We can put the parking lot off of Lake Lucy, which they didn't want a parking lot at all and that was SOrt of OUr compromise was to put it off of Lake Lucy and they could live with that. Now if we come back and say okay, we're not going to put it off of Lake Lucy because it's not accessible enough to people and we'll just go "......1<Jith YOUr Original ideas of on street parking. That's what they wanted to start with and as a back-up, if that becomes a problem, we'll have to put access off of Wood Duck. Then they think they're getting what they wanted and we've leaving their option open of putting in a mOre accessible parking lot if they start complaining to us about people parking on Wood Duck. Schroers: And I don't think we have to advertise Wood Duck as the designated parking area. I mean what we're talking about here again is . essentially a neighborhood park. There's not going to be hoardes of traffic rushing to Pheasant Hills to park there and I think we can let them accommodate themselves and if it isn't working out, they'll come and tell us what it is that th~y want and what we should do about it and then we cay say at that point in time, well what you're asking here is feasible or it isn't feasible but this is what we can trY to do to accommodate. Lash: But I think the plan we have to make sure that we have provided an adequate spot to put that and that it's communicated to them that this spot is being reserved in case we need a parking lot in the future. In case the on street parking doesn't work out for you. We want to have Plan Band that would be to put a parking lot here. I don't know how could they not, it's what they wanted to start with. Schroer~: I think it's not what they wanted to start with because they didn't want a parking lot up on that end. So we told them we'd put it down on the other end but now we're telling them, well we're going to park on your street and if you don't like that, we're going to build a parking lot. ~Lash: But they didn't want a parking lot at all. Remember they didn't . want a parking lot at all and we said we had to put one in. Okay, if you have to put one in, put it off of Lake Lucy. So we said, okay. Park and Rec Commission Meeting January 28, 1992 - Page 50 ...."I Schroers: Yeah, but now we're telling them that if on street parking don't work, that we're going to build it where we told them we weren't going to in the first place and then they're going to say, oh you people are wishy washy or you're lying to us. Yo'u told u~ this and now you've changed your mind and done a complete l~O on us here. Lash: I think the way Todd presented it to us is, you have to take out a whole lot of mature trees and people are going to go up and park on Wood Duck anyway. Anybody ca,n look at that and figure that that's their option. Schroers: Oh I don't disagree that that's the thing to do but I think that if we want to catch some serious flack from the neighborhood, it's go and tell them that we're going to do exactly what we told them that we weren't going to do. We don't look good. We don't look good when we do that. Hoffm~n: The simple fact is even developing this paTk, although they all wanted it, it's still not a popular action. I've got word back from one of the neighbors abutting the park that the person that was behind the major push for this park has moved and would a petition boycotting the development of this park be effective back at the Park and Recreation Commission level? I said boy, that's unusual. Lash: That'd save us a lot of money. If they don't want it. Hoffman: This is simply because that person abuts the open playfield and boy we didn't realize that was going to be an open playfield. ...",; Schroers: One thing that I think is real important is that we maintain the credibility bf this Commission. We had some controversial things happen in the past and we have learned from experience, when we butt heads we don't get very far. So at least if we're going to turn things around on Pheasant Hills, we're going to have to find a diplomatic way to do it. Lash: I think if it's communicated all the way along and maybe there needs to be a letter sent and you need to say there's been some new facts have come to light regarding the parking arrangement for this park. We'd like your input on this. We're going to have a public hearing on it at such and such date. You're welcome to come and let us know how you feel. Hoffman: Okay. But as of tonight we do not need to go that route right? We'll just leave the park on the master plan. We're not going to build it. Dale's wondering because they're out there doing cutting and gradihg. We're not going to cut the trees down for the parking lot. Let people park for the next 4 years. 5chroers: We can't go ahead and cut trees down, we're a tree city. Lash: But I don't know that we can go ahead and develop the'park without the parking lot. Without having the neighborhood know what's going on. Otherwise it's going to look like...switched the plan without telling them anything about it. Koubsky: I think we need to communicate what our intentions are. We could forego the parking lot but let them know. Just kind of build it without ......" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,,..... Janua,y 28, 1992 - Page 51 like Jan was saying. If we have to put a pa,king lot up in that open space, design it now while we're developing it. It's either going to be grass or pavement. And then we can discuss later parking issues. Hoffman: Got it. Koubsky: If we have to go chop trees down because we said that's what we're going to do, we'll chop trees down. Pemrick: Transplant them. Hoffman: Last item is the year end budget. 410 Pa,k Acquisition and Development budget of revenue for ~991 is $191,000.00. Collected was $163,000.00 so we were short about $28,000.00. Much better than anticipated. Interest revenues came up. Had some year end activity in building so just last year, 93% were collected. This year 77% were collected so we were behind last year but we ended up much better of_f. t"b~n we thought 3 weeks ago. That's it. Andrews moved. pemrick seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10=40 p.m.. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Coordinator ,..... Prepared by Nann Opheim JI"""